All language subtitles for Greg Davies Looking For Kes 2019

Ready? Yep.

I'm going to Barnsley.

I've never been to Barnsley before.

"Why are you going to Barnsley,
Greg?" I'll tell you.

I've been asked to make a
documentary about this little book,

A Kestrel For A Knave
by Barry Hines.

I love this book,
and this book is set in Barnsley.

It's one of the first things
I ever read.

I was one of the first stories
at school that really got me.

That really drew me in.

And then later, it came back
into my life again

because I became a teacher, and it
was my go-to book in the classroom

to get children engaged,

especially kids who didn't
want to read, particularly.

That little book always
drew them in.

It's my first documentary.

I have to wear the same shirt
for the whole documentary

for continuity reasons.

So, I've already
learnt before we start...

..BBC presenters...

..they smell.

This programme contains
some strong language

'As you watch me inexplicably filmed
from above, walking up a road,

'know this -
our trip will unearth proof

t'hat the original Billy Casper
can still flick the V....

Screw you.

'..the wisdom of a pop star...'

Like, we all need to take
the jesses off now and again.

GREG CHUCKLES

God, we do.

'..a live hawk...'

Oh! Tiffin. What's this?

'..a man with a live hawk...
Yeah.

'..garment sniffing, and another man
with a live hawk.'

I probably shouldn't have eaten fish

before I started doing
a piece to camera.

'There'll be technical problems...'

Look if I stand up.

LAUGHTER

How did you get on
with Barry Hines, Millie?

'..but don't panic, mainly I'm here
to celebrate a much-loved book.'

If A Kestrel For A Knave
asks anything of people,

it's to find the thing
that you love. Precisely.

Consider yourself teased.

'What I have realised is I actually
know very little about this book

'outside of the story.

'I know nothing of the author,
Barry Hines,

'and nothing about
Hoyland Common near Barnsley,

'the South Yorkshire town
that was the book's setting.

'What I do know
is that A Kestrel For A Knave

'has been in print since
it was first published in 1968.'

For many, it's better known
as the film Kes, made little more
than a year after the book came out.

The story of Billy Casper,
a boy from a mining community

who teaches himself
to train a kestrel

has been capturing people's
imaginations for decades.

Casper, where the devil
have you been?

Nowhere, Sir. Nowhere?

Who are you, the Invisible Man?

It's a roller-coaster of brutality,
hope, despair and iconic comedy...

And Bobby Charlton has equalised
for Manchester United.

..its influence rearing
its head over the years

in the most unlikely places.

It's a kestrel, Sir.
Beautiful. Can it fly?

Yes, it's flying now, Sir.

STUDIO AUDIENCE LAUGHS

'Here in Hoyland Common, I'm keen to
know if the book and film still
speak to the local people today.

The answer to that question
comes quickly.

CAMERA CLICKS

There you go.

Thank you.
You're welcome.

I've got DVD of that.

And, er... Have you?
Have you watched it?

Yeah, I've watched it, like, hundred
times, to be honest with you.

It's just really good
how he's, like...

..how he's trained
a kestrel from a certain age,

and like it'd take people
years and years to do that.

I mean, are you rolling on this?

Well, I didn't know until me dad
were saying,

"Oh, er, Kes were filmed here,"

and all that.

I don't know what to say.

HE GIGGLES

You've said enough. That's amazing.

In 1968, these houses were full
of mining families

just getting on with their lives.

One year later,
in the summer of '69,

something mad happened
in Hoyland Common -

a film crew descended.

Now, that in itself would
have been big news round here.

But, then, the community got word
that Ken Loach, the director,

didn't want to use trained actors,

he wanted to cast from
the local community.

So, suddenly these people found
themselves queuing up for auditions

with a chance of being
in an international film.

So who better to talk to about
the enduring appeal of this book

than the man who directed the
award-winning film that followed it?

Ken Loach.

Here it is, the home of
Sixteen Films.

BUZZER RINGS

ON INTERCOM: Hello?
Hello, it's Greg Davies.

ENTRY SYSTEM BUZZES

I think that was Ken Loach.

Here we go.

Let's face it,
I'm out of my depth here.

'I quickly set about impressing
the celebrated director

'by showing him how good
I am at clapping.'

I'm going to start with
a really pedestrian question

and ask you just to tell me
how it came about.

Erm, well, I met Barry Hines through
Tony Garnett, the producer of Kes,

and Tony and I were old friends
at the BBC,

and we'd done a lot
of stuff together,

and, erm, we were hoping
to make a feature film.

Tony had met Barry Hines
and asked Barry to do a story

for The Wednesday Play.

Tony. Greg?

And he said, "No."

GREG CHUCKLES

And that surprised me.

Sometimes you just meet
people and you just click.

He'd got very piercing, blue eyes,

that just went through you.

And he said there was a book
he wanted to go and write.

But, then, 18 months later,
his agent sent me a draft of

A Kestrel For A Knave,

and I started to read it,

and then cancelled everything
for the rest of the day,

and read it till I'd finished,

and made a decision there and then
that we must make a film of it.

Wow.

I mean, the truth of the book
shone through.

The comedy of the book
shone through.

And, of course, the great thing that
is in the book was the strength

of the central image, of a boy
who is trapped training a bird...

..that flies free.

Kes!

C'mon, Kes!

C'mon, Kes!

How easy was the book
to turn into a film script?

Very easy.

I mean, Ken and Barry and I
took a screenplay credit,

which I think now probably
we shouldn't have done,

because it was all there
in the book.

It was a script editing job,
not a screenwriting job. Right.

Because it was there.

You read the book
and you're watching a film.

Both film and book tell the story
of a boy whose secret life

with a trained kestrel
transcends a loveless home

and cruel education system.

Having failed his eleven-plus,

Billy, like so many, is set up
to fail some more

in a secondary modern school.

TEACHER OFF-SCREEN: Get out!

Weeks before leaving, his options
for the future seem predetermined,

but he quickly reveals a defiance
that becomes central to this story.

Right, then, well, would you like
to work in an office,

or would you prefer manual work?

What's manual work?

Oh, it means working
with your hands.

Things like farming, engineering,
plumbing, things like that,

as opposed to pen-pushing jobs.

I'd be all right in an office,
I have a job to read and write.

Hm.

Well, if nothing I've mentioned
so far appeals to you, and

if you can stand a hard day's work
and you don't mind getting dirty,

there are good opportunities
in mining.

I'm not goin' down t'pit.

Oh, don't be put off
by what you've heard.

Conditions have improved
tremendously.

I wouldn't be seen dead
down t'pit.

I started my teaching career
in a secondary modern,

as did Barry Hines.

I'd hoped to visit the school
that he taught in -

part of the film was shot there -

but it was demolished in 2010.

OFF-SCREEN: Action!

In its place is this
shiny new academy.

It couldn't be a bigger contrast
to the school in the book,

and I wanted to see if Billy's story
resonates in any way

with the children being taught
here today.

Before I prove conclusively that
I'm as bad at real teaching as I was

in the '90s, here's me
giving a nuanced portrayal

of a fictitious teacher that
some of you will recognise.

Good morning. And shut up.

Maybe I could compose a regular
memo with how it's all going.

OK.

Why don't' you drop that
in my pigeonhole?

Great. Where's that then, Sir?

Any bin.

I've just walked past three
classrooms and loads of kids

have been shouting "Gilbert" at me.

Inbetweeners lives on.

Right, I'm about to teach
my first lesson in 14 years.

I'm shitting myself.

PUPILS APPLAUD

GREG CHUCKLES

Oh. Well.

Well, ladies and gentlemen...
You all right, Mr Ball?

How are you? Good to meet you.
You can sit down now, I'll take it.

I taught for 13 years,
and that is the first time

I've ever had a round of applause
coming into a classroom.

Do you applaud your teachers
when they come in?

ALL: No.
Good.

What did you like about
A Kestrel For A Knave?

'The school's hand-picked class
of pupils

'are disappointingly compliant.'

I liked how Billy wasn't, like,
very good academically.

He found something
he actually enjoyed doing,

and continued to do that.

'I was hoping to bawl
one of them out, '60s-style.

'As you can see, alas,
they're too nice.'

I liked how realistic it was,
because it didn't try to

glamorise it, or try to make
his life seem better.

'Being here, it's easy to feel
that A Kestrel For A Knave

'is about a very different
time and place.'

Come on, quickly, Casper. I've never
seen such slack work in my life.

Does it feel real to see teachers

behaving the way
that they...they behave?

SEVERAL PUPILS: No.

I mean, what would happen
to a teacher at this school?

They'd get fired.

GREG LAUGHS

They'd get fired?

I was at the tail-end,
when I came to secondary school,

of corporal punishment
being stopped.

So in the first two years when I
was at school, kids were being hit.

My science teacher, erm,
Chunky Wilson...

Get that on record.

..he whacked me over the head
with a textbook this thick,

because I was talking.

Keep out of trouble.
I ain't been in trouble, Sir.

Not since last time.

'I don't think there are any
Billy Caspers in this class,

'but like anyone who reads the book,

'they connect to the themes that
make this story so powerful.'

It would take a much longer
documentary to capture the realities

of growing up in a
modern-day Barnsley.

What is certain is that it
has changed dramatically

since A Kestrel For A Knave
was written.

For Barry Hines, Hoyland Common,

the mining community of the 1960s,

was a powerful backdrop to his work.

I'll let Barry explain this himself.

Me dad, me dad was a miner.

I was brought up in a mining
village called Hoyland Common

between Barnsley and Sheffield.

And, er...

..it was a typical sort of
South Yorkshire mining village,

with the 19th-century company
houses, and the council estate and

the pit at the bottom of the street,
surrounded by woods and fields,

yet pretty close to...to a city.

It's that curious South Yorkshire
environment

of the urban and the rural.

Were you a great reader
when you were a child?

I was a great reader of comics.
Comics?

You didn't have a lot
of books at home?

No, we didn't have books
in the house at all.

What were the comics you read?
Dandy, Beano, Rover...

..then we used to swap the Rover
for the Wizard and Hotspur,

and, er...and that's
as far as my reading went.

This is where we actually
shot the Dandy sequence,

which is where the coke...the coking
plant was, which features

in the film, when you hear the...
IMITATES MACHINERY SOUNDS

It was, I think,
one of the geniuses of Ken Loach

that he actually used that sound
effect as part of the story...

As part of the backdrop.

..when he was reading the Dandy,
you know, the comic...

Ah, right.

..you know? Of course.
So that when Dan was...

When Dan banged the culprit
into the middle of next week.

"Take that. Crash!

"Where did he end up?

"In the middle of next week,
Uncle Dan!"

He used the sound effect
as if he was going back...

So, he used the coking...
I didn't know that. That's... Yes.

See? Always learning.

'The perilous location for
this interview confirms

'my creeping suspicion that
the director wishes me harm.'

Just doing a bit of business.

'But we're here now, and I have much
to ask Dai Bradley,

'the original Billy Casper,
who was just a local schoolboy

'when Ken Loach cast him
to star in the film.'

We start by getting sidetracked.

I mean, the opportunities to get
into acting in the mid '60s

was virtually nil.

There was one talent show on TV
with Hughie Green... Of course!

..Opportunity Knocks.
Opportunity Knocks! Yeah.

And I remember there was one guy,
and he was completely naked

up...from his chest upwards,
and he was able to roll his tummy,

and make his muscles ripple.
His music went...

THEY HUM WHEELS CHA CHA

MUSIC: Wheels - Cha Cha

Ken Loach will love all this.
DAI CHUCKLES

It's true! This is what you hoped
for, Ken, right?

This is what he did.

That's the music every week.
Yeah, I remember.

He used the same bloody music.
I remember!

DAI CHUCKLES

I remember. I don't know.

And all those Kes
purists out there -

broaden your horizons a little bit.
DAI CHUCKLES

So, where are we now in terms
of where the whole film was set?

Well, I'd say this is
the outskirts of Hoyland.

Um...and...and most of the filming
took place over there,

which is where Barry Hines grew
up as a kid. And went to school.

It was a very physical
kind of upbringing.

Um, the main things... I mean,
it was a physical kind of place

in so much that most of the fellas
worked down the pit

and, um, it was all sport, and...

..and fighting.

OFF-SCREEN: Get him! Get him!

INTERVIEWER: You make a lot of that,
of course, in Kes, don't you?

There's a memorable piece
in which the two kids,

MacDowell and Billy, have
a fight in the playground.

Is that the kind of thing
that was part of your childhood?

Well, it was...until...it was up
to 11, and, then, when I passed

the eleven-plus and went
to the grammar school,

it all changed.

And...

..suddenly, I was part of a...

..um, a middle class...

..institution, academic institution,

which I couldn't cope
with very well at all.

Barry Hines' academic success
took him to grammar school.

Eventually, he lectured
here at the arts building

in the University of Sheffield.

'It is a place that holds answers
to many of my questions about

'the boy from Hoyland Common
who became a celebrated writer.

'David Forrest is the lecturer
who watches over the archive,

'but before showing me key
artefacts,

'he takes his cue from the director
and attempts to kill me.'

I mean, it's a beautiful building.
David, what...what is this?

Erm, so, this is a paternoster.

Er, I think it's the only one
left in the country.

It's a listed building, so we've
got to keep the lift, as well.

The whole building's lift... Hop in.

Yeah, yeah... What is it? Eh?
Come on, get in!

I mean, that's...that's dangerous.

'I forgive David for the lift,
and we get stuck in to the archive.'

I'm already excited. Tell me what
we've got in front of us.

This is a scarf that was,
erm, knitted for him by his auntie,

erm, because, so the story goes,
the family didn't want to,

or couldn't afford to buy the scarf
from the official suppliers.

We know that grammar school was
a really difficult place for him,

because it was a place that
he realised he was different

because of his class.

Obviously, it's never been washed.
It's never been washed?

We can't wash it.
We can't affect it in any way.

We don't want to shrink it.
It's a very important artefact...

Yeah. ..of a very, very important
working-class writer. So, yeah.

Of course! It does... Do you want
to have a smell of it yourself?

I'm going to sniff it. Yeah.

I like to think Barry would want me
to have sniffed his scarf.

Does it smell like school to you?

It does smell like...
Does it bring back memories?

It does smell like... Yeah, that's
what I thought. Yeah, it does.

'I would like to point out

'that David sniffed the scarf
before I did,

'but that has been
conveniently edited out.'

Do you want to sniff it again?
No, I've sniffed. All right.

I'm on camera sniffing it. OK.

So we've also got, linking
to his experience in grammar school,

it's actually his report cards
from grammar school. Oh.

VOICEOVER: Just to explain, if I
make funny noises at this point,

it's because I have a weird thing

about touching real historical
objects. It's just me.

He was going from his town where his
mates were, where his family was,

to the city of Sheffield,

and you can see here
he struggled a bit at school,

I think it's fair to say.
So, we've got English - D.

French - D. But English...
History, geography - C's. ..E. Yeah.

English - D, again, that year.

And, I don't know why
that's a surprise to me,

but...but he wasn't
a model student, was he?

No. I mean, he was
a brilliant athlete.

I think that's really, really
important to make clear.

He had trials for Manchester United,

played for Barnsley Reserves...

I didn't know he had trials
for Manchester United. Yeah.

He was that good, was he? He was
very good. He played football

at university with Bob Wilson,
who played for Scotland.

He played in the first team there,

he played to a very high standard
when he left university, as well.

So sport was a thing
that was his passion.

This is pre him discovering
George Orwell. Yeah. Yeah.

This is pre him even fantasising
about becoming a writer.

It just happened by chance.

There were two things happened
roughly at the same time - I was

in digs with a lad who was doing
English for his second subject.

I mean, I wasn't even doing English,
I was doing history.

And one Sunday afternoon
I was bored stiff,

I'd looked at the paper
and read me comics.

I mean, I were still reading comics
when I went to Loughborough.

I never read...never read
real books,

and I was so bored that this...this
lad who I was in digs with,

as I said, who was doing English,

I said to him, "Have you got
any books I could read?"

And he looked a bit doubtful,

cos he'd known me for several months
by this time, and he went

to his shelf, and he found
the thinnest book he could find.

And it was George Orwell's
Animal Farm.

It's got about 86 pages.
Big print.

HOST CHUCKLES

And...he's put me finger under
the lines and set me off.

And I managed it at one sitting.

And it was the first book
I'd read of my own volition.

I can't remember now
what I got out of it,

but it must have just been
the narrative, the story.

It was a good story, and I read it,
and I though, "Oh!"

And there was a chink in the armour.

For Barry, football was
a means of expression,

but when his flatmate introduced him
to the world of fiction,

an alternative future
began to present itself.

Barry's first wife, Margaret,

witnessed the metamorphosis
first-hand.

'I put her at ease with some
more top-grade clapping.'

When you and Barry
first became a couple,

he had no ambitions
to become a writer.

And then he went to London
and he read Animal Farm,

and, suddenly,
this ambition was born.

And I just wonder,
was that a shock to you,

as someone...?
Yes, it was a surprise.

He became obsessed with reading.

I don't know how he passed
his PE certificate, really,

because... Because it took
over to that extent?

Yes, yes, and he had a full-time job
in a school in St Marylebone,

and he wrote at night and
weekends, but he was a busy man,

because he also played for
Crawley Town on Saturdays...

Football. Yeah. ..still keeping
his football up.

Yes, but he was absolutely
determined, even then.

Before he'd had his
eureka moment and thought,

"Maybe literature's the path for
me," sport was incredibly important.

Yeah, and his university
dissertation, actually, is all about

the relationship between academic
life and sporting life,

and the fact that for young
working-class people

there are many,
many talented people,

but they exercise their
talent through sport.

But football as a form of
expression... Yeah, absolutely.

..rather than having a kick-around
in a park

is such a fascinating idea.

So the whole... The dissertation was
written as these long descriptions,

where he tries to write
football as ballet.

And his first novel, the novel
that he writes before

A Kestrel For A Knave, The Blinder,
is of course about football.

And Hines writes the football scenes

as though they are kind of
extended sequences of dance.

NARRATOR: "The centre forward rolled
the ball to Lenny, who retreated

"into his own half and aimed
his kick out to the wing.

"The ball rose and travelled
diagonally across the pitch,

"curving down like a rainbow,
a feed to the running wingman.

"The ball had beaten the full-back
for him.

"Lenny pivoted on his left
leg and swung his right,

"pointing his foot
like a ballet dancer.

"The ball would've gone a long
way if the net hadn't stopped it.

"Then he signalled the goal
by raising his right arm.

"Mr Brooke spun
a full circle on one heel."

How much of that early writing
of yours is really autobiographical?

Well, the first one, The Blinder,
was wish fulfilment, really.

It was me, erm...

It was what I would have liked
to have been. A footballer.

A footballer, but more than that,
it was...

..it was the lad in it was George
Best with six A-levels. Uh-huh.

That's what it was about.

Somebody who'd got everything
going for him. Yes.

I loved writing that book.

I didn't know how difficult it
was, you see, to write a novel.

I'd never... Never having been
a literature student... Mm-hm.

..and never having to do criticism,

and never having done
a degree in literature,

I never had any of the great masters
looking over my shoulder.

He didn't sit down and knock
off a thousand words before lunch...

Yeah. ..he mined them. Right.

But his images were so eloquent.

There's a little line about
a toddler on a tricycle...

..whizzing down the pavement.

And he said, "His legs were
going like bees' wings."

Ah, lovely. Yeah.

And, so you could see this little,

you know, this little kid
doing this.

One of his literary heroes
is Ernest Hemingway. Right.

And you can feel that...that
spareness of style,

but that also means that
it's very direct, and it's blunt.

So it's highly poetic, but it's
poetic in a way which is economic,

which is almost efficient.

NARRATOR: "The sky was a grey wash,

"pale grey over the fields
behind the estate,

"but darkening overhead to
charcoal away over the city.

"The street lamps were still on,

"and a few lighted windows glowed
the colour of their curtains.

"Billy passed two miners returning
silently from the night shift.

"A man in overalls cycled by,
treading the pedals slowly.

"The four of them
converged and parted,

"pursuing their various
destinations at various speeds."

I think he wrote three drafts
of A Kestrel For A Knave,

and throughout I helped him
with that.

We used to sit together and go
through it together, you know,

and make decisions about which word
to take out, which word to put in.

So you were that forensic about it?

Yeah. Yes.
Together, you were...

..you were you were analysing
sentence by sentence, were you?

Yes.

He was determined,
and he was driven.

The novel was published, and the
film came, was made the year after.

Soon after that, Sally was born.

So you had a child,
as well as all this?

Yes, it was all together, all in the
same, sort of, few months, really.

12 months. What a year!

Yes, it was. It was a good time.

I mean, this is the sort of thing
that's beyond exciting for me.

Well, you tell me what this is.

Well, this is the handwritten
manuscript of A Kestrel For A Knave.

Erm...

I mean, it takes my breath away
every time I see it

and I've seen it lots of times.

Erm, it...

He wrote everything by hand,
actually.

And all the way through his career,
you know, right up until the 1990s,

he was still employing
a typist to type up his work.

So the early drafts of the script
are like this as well.

And it's that, yeah, you can see
the crossings out. You can also see,

he looks like he's spilt some water,
or a cup of tea over there.

I mean, that stuff drives me mad.

This...this evidence of life.
Yeah.

And the fact that I'm holding it,
it's...

I mean, I've got no words for that.

Well, you can see the film,
as well, can't you, right?

Yeah. You can...

..you can really see it.

NARRATOR: "There were
no curtains up.

"The window was a hard-edged block
the colour of the night sky.

"Inside the bedroom the darkness
was of a gritty texture.

"The wardrobe and bed were
blurred shapes in the darkness.

"Silence.

"Billy moved over towards
the outside of the bed.

"Jud moved with him, leaving
one half of the bed empty.

"Then the alarm rang."

ALARM RINGS

Jud? What?

Thou'll be late.
Shut it.

Clock's not fast.

I said, shut it.

Give over. That hurts!

Well, shut it, then.

I'll tell me mam on thee.

Shut yer stinkin' mouth.

Hands off cocks, on socks.

In a film, the writer is the most
important creative... Yeah.

..element in the film, without
doubt. Directors are secondary.

Not all directors would say that,
of course. Well, they are, though.

Barry was involved in every
aspect of the filming.

Barry was involved in the casting.

Obviously, he was involved
in finding the locations,

because he knew the place.

And we used the places that he
had in mind wherever possible,

when he was writing the book.

He showed us what he'd imagined
was the wall of Monastery Farm,

which was an old rail wall.

Yeah, I've been there
this very week.

BIRD CHIRPS

The ruin where Billy Casper
finds his kestrel was an inspiration

for the book,
and used as a location in the film.

It still stands today.

I'm delighted when Dai Bradley
agrees to help me prove a theory

that I've long held
without any evidence to back it up -

that I am a natural falconer,

an uncelebrated exponent of an
ancient art, a man who was foolishly

overlooked by the makers of
Game of Thrones for a lead role.

Possibly a king.

Whatever.

We just need this glove to protect
your fingers just on your left hand.

Yes, I do...

GREG CHUCKLES

Oh, God. Dai, was this not
petrifying going through this

in the...? Not...
Do you remember back then?

Not particularly.
I was fascinated with them.

And the fact that they were...
I mean, they were chicks when we

started out,
it wasn't an adult bird.

So, I kind of grew with the bird...

With the bird! ..over the course
of the film.

Whereas you're...you're heading
in the deep water, mate.

Well, I am slightly nervous now.

So, just hold your hand
just like that. Yeah.

And he goes to the highest point.

So, don't put your hand... Oh! ..any
further down than there,

otherwise he'll end up on your head.

Right, am I... Hang on a minute.

..am I holding on to that... No.
..there? No, just the bit...

That bit, there? ..between your
thumb and forefinger.

You need to stay down there, mate.
He can't see you. Oh!

Oh! What do you see, big man?
Tiffin!

So, Greg, if you just let go.

Let go? Yeah. Here you go.

Go on, then. Wahey!

Hold your hand up and come
round here like that...

Whoa! ..and he'll come across.

That's amazing. I didn't even
see him coming.

Slightly unnerving when it
stares directly at me.

Yeah.

He's...he's...he's really special.

I do feel like Billy Casper 2.0.

DAI CHUCKLES

'After I've hogged the hawk,
it's Dai's turn.'

I'll stand where you were.
Yeah. I'll stand out the way. OK.

Let's see how it's done.
Where is he?

He's going to come...

He's sat on the ground, I'm afraid.
He's going to come round.

DAI CLICKS HIS TONGUE

Kes!

BILLY CLICKS HIS TONGUE

Come on, lass.

BILLY CLICKS HIS TONGUE

Come on, Kes!

BILLY CLICKS HIS TONGUE

Come on, Kes!

BILLY CLICKS HIS TONGUE

Come on, then!

BILLY CLICKS HIS TONGUE

Come on, big guy.

Here he comes.

Hey, lovely.

Yes.

Oh, yes.

Oh!

I'll be honest with you, Dai,
it could have gone smoother.

It could have gone smoother.

Good job we got the original, eh?

DAI CHUCKLES

Do you want to go to the perch?

There you go.

DAI CLICKS HIS TONGUE

What's this? What's this, then?

Yes. Nice and tasty, eh?

Bit of chicken biryani.

GREG CHUCKLES

I studied this book at school,
when I was 11 years of age,

and the idea that I would be
standing next to...

..the original Billy Casper flying
a kestrel is, frankly, ridiculous.

But, it's been so lovely,
a lovely thing to do.

You can see why it was such
a special relationship

that they had. I can't imagine
what it was like for you as a kid.

Yeah. It must have been
absolutely magical.

Yeah. Yeah, it was.

Dai's wonderful memories of
a special time in his life

chime with Billy's love
of his kestrel.

In a moving scene from the book
and the film,

we see another side to school -
a teacher who cares,

who encourages Billy to share
his passion with the class.

Right, Billy, write it up there.

We see him talk knowledgeably
about the technical terms

that he's learned.

Right, now tell us what that is.

Well, they're like leather straps,
Sir, attached t'bird's feet.

This is the moment where Barry Hines
speaks from the heart

about the power of good teaching.

And after a while, I put it two
inches away from its claws.

And, er, like that, like.

OFF-SCREEN: It contains such a rich
educational philosophy.

I think his philosophy,
as a teacher, and as a writer,

is to meet in the middle,
to meet that young boy

in the middle, to meet the
Billy Caspers in the middle,

to listen to them, to talk
to them, to nurture them,

to hear what it is, where it is
that they're finding creativity,

an agency in their everyday lives.

Mr Farthing's interest in
Billy doesn't stop in the classroom.

He makes a visit to watch the boy
fly his beloved bird.

C'mon, Kes!

If A Kestrel For A Knave asks
anything of people,

it's to find the thing
that you love.

Precisely.

Creating such a unique rebel. Yeah.

Such an unlikely rebel,
Billy Casper, isn't he?

He's a rebel, because
he embraces the natural world,

because he finds wisdom and poetry
in everyday life. Yeah.

These are actually, kind of, quite
artistic, quite rarefied pursuits.

Yeah.

And not ones that we traditionally
associate with that "Grim Up North",

kind of, narrative that we hear
about places like Barnsley.

That's the beauty of his work.

BILLY: If somebody comes up to me
and says, "Is it tame?"

Is it heck tame.

Hawks can't be tamed.

They're manned.

It's wild, and it's fierce,
and it's not bothered about anybody.

Not bothered about me, right.

That's what makes it great.

OFF-SCREEN: It's such a powerfully
egalitarian message that all of us

can have poetry
in our everyday lives,

just like Billy Casper.

It was basically saying
that every child has a quality.

You should find that quality
and nurture it.

It also is saying, "Why does
this country, systematically,

"throw on the scrapheap at least
two-thirds of each generation?"

It says all I wanted to say
about a lad who's not academic,

but once he gets interested in
something, he gets stuck in.

And what it does, of course,
it gives him confidence.

And that's...that's key, that.

Because all of us,
we need confidence,

and the middle class have
got confidence in spades.

And, why not? I mean...

..that's what they pay money for.

The story of a boy from a
mining town who trains a kestrel

has enchanted so many people,
because of the inherent sense

of truth, a feeling that this tale
could have happened,

so it was wonderful to discover
that Barry's own brother, Richard,

was the inspiration for the book.

He really did fly kestrels
as a child,

and went on to be the on-set expert
for the film.

Casper, lad, get to my room!

DAI CHUCKLES

I'll thrash you, lads.
How are you doing, Richard?

Falling asleep in my assembly!
DAI CHUCKLES

That's it. That's what I came for.
This is Greg.

Hi, Richard.
Hi, Greg. Pleased to meet you.

How are you? Oh, yeah, I'm fine,
thanks. The two Billy Caspers.

Yeah. That's right. United.

Billy Senior and Billy Junior.
Yeah. Yeah.

So, he really, really did base
the book on you,

or your experience
with kestrels, right?

Well, some of it, yes.

Because I was the secondary modern
school write-off,

beaten at school...

..and I got...

..a kestrel.

I saw it flying out there,
and I came with a friend.

Not here by the ruins? Really?

Yeah. That's where the nest was,
in there.

And I climbed up... It's incredible,
that. I came...

I came out of that wood there
with a friend,

ladder on our shoulders,
and we climbed up the wall.

Took the kestrel from there?
Yeah. But what about the books?

What about the library scene?
Is there some truth there?

Yeah, that's true. I did it.
You went to the library?

I went to Barnsley Library.

What do you mean?
Are you a member of the library?

I don't know about that. I only want
a book on falconry. That's all.

Well, you have to be a member
to take a book out.

And you nicked it.
Tell me you nicked it.

No, no, I didn't nick it.
You didn't nick it. No.

I went to the book shop,
tried to order it.

It was two weeks. But I was so
fascinated, I couldn't wait.

So I went back to the library,
got a notepad,

and copied it out by hand.

I wrongly presumed that Richard
had continued to fly kestrels

for his whole life,
and asked him to do it again.

Is it a he or a she?

Is it a Jack, or a...?

This lack of research provided us
with something truly special.

NARRATOR: "She tried a new tactic
and came in low,

"seeming to flit within a pocket
of silence close to the ground.

"Billy flexed at the knees,

"and flattened the plane
of the swing,

"allowing the lengthening line
to pay out before her."

GREG: Go on, Richard.

NARRATOR: "She shortened her stoop
and counter stoop,

"which increased the frequency
of her attacks,

"and made Billy pivot and whirl,

"and watch, but never lose control
of the lure or its pursuer."

C'mon, Kes!

GREG CHUCKLES

He's calling her Kes.

Old habits.

NARRATOR: "And she came, headfirst,
"wings closed, swooping down,

"hurtling down towards Billy,
who waited,

"then lured her - WHOOSH - up,
throwing, up, ringing, turning,

"and as she stooped again,
Billy twirled the lure

"and threw it high into her path.

"She caught it, and clutched it
down to the ground."

Caught it first time.

Richard hasn't done that
for 50 years.

It's us that's made him to it.

It's true!

What a little beauty.

Oh, that was brilliant.

I never thought
I could do that again.

It was amazing.
Absolutely amazing.

It's must be like riding a bike.

To have a hawk on my fist again...

Oh. I think I might get another one.

GREG AND RICHARD CHUCKLE

The film is faithful
to the book's tragic end.

I can't see it meself.
Right, ta.

When Billy fails to place a bet
for his older brother Jud,

Kes' fate is sealed.

Billy spends the money
on fish and chips instead.

Here it is, then,
the original fish and chip shop.

It's now called Caspers.
It's been renamed.

Yeah. What a legacy. I know! I know!

THEY LAUGH

Let's go and get some
fish and chips.

Can I have a bobs worth o' chips,
and a fish?

Serve him, will you, Mary?

Yes, love? Got any scraps, Missis?

Yes, love.

DAI: Can I have some fish scraps,
please? Some? Fish scraps?

Yeah, course you can.
OK. All right.

Still working it. OK.
Still got the Casper magic.

There you go. You make the scraps
on purpose now, though, don't you?

SERVER LAUGHS

Yeah. Yeah. I'm on to you.

Oh, thank you. There you go.

Only half as much for me,
cos I'm not as big as he is.

Fat. Big. Fat.

DAI CHUCKLES

While Billy eats his chips,
Jud's horses win.

The revenge he takes
is heart-wrenching.

Billy retrieving the dead kestrel
from the bin is hard to watch,

however many times you've seen it.

Well, Dai, I think that
anyone who's read this book

has their opinions
about this question,

but what do you think would have
happened to Billy Casper?

Well, I felt that there was no life
in the collieries for him.

He would not follow his brother
into the coalmines.

I think you and I would agree
on that,

that he didn't end up down the pit.

That's right. He had too much spirit
in it. And what we want to think

is that that spirit wasn't
crushed... Yes. ..by what happened.

It's that attitude.

"Screw you."

It's that... And I agree with you,

..but is that you and I
romanticising it? No.

Is that you and I hoping that
Billy... No, no, no.

..keeps that fighting spirit? I
think he kept that fighting spirit.

I hope so. I think he did.

There's a lot of kids out there
like him, you know,

and what we need to do is
harness that raw passion,

whatever it is that really
makes them tick.

Time for a selfie
with the V-sign master.

DAI CHUCKLES

GREG OFF-SCREEN: It's not the
first one Dai's had to do today.

That's it. Are you in? Yeah.

Ah, he's doing the... He's doing
the fist in the air, look!

The two fingers, there.
Yeah, hang on.

That way. Peace.

Yes.

GREG CHUCKLES

Champion.

David Bradley, AKA Billy Casper,
turned 66 yesterday. So you...

Absolute fucking legend.

GREG LAUGHS

Don't start with that...

You don't seem to tire of...

Or you're doing a good impression,
Dai,

of someone who isn't bored
of talking about Kes.

Well, it's, kind of, been my whole
life in a lot of ways, Greg.

I realised very early on that Kes
would probably be...

..the...the...the the production
that would kind of...

..usurp everything else
I'd ever do in my life or career.

It's defined your career...
That's right.

..maybe, yeah.
That's right.

So, I embraced it
rather than fought against it.

The fact that A Kestrel For A Knave
remains the project

that both Dai and Barry Hines
are professionally defined by

is no surprise. Its reach and
influence have been phenomenal.

Time to speak to a well-known
superfan - Jarvis Cocker.

Yeah, if you could come through
to my office.

'And Jarvis has his own personal
homage to the book's famous cover.'

The cover of the book was
more like that.

Now, this photo haunts me
really, because it's...

..I've seen, like, representations
of it all over the place.

But the reason this photo
came about was,

I think it was the NME
years ago, asked...

They were doing something, and they
were asking what me favourite book

was, and I said A Kestrel For
A Knave, and I brought it along,

and then I think
the photographer just said,

"Oh, will you do that pose from
the from the cover of the book?"

So, I did. It's so great.

Obviously, I would never
normally... Be so rude.

No, I mean... I don't imagine many
people who saw that image

realised that you were
back-referencing a 1968 book.

No, totally.

It's my cover version
of that cover shot.

Yeah. When did you first read
the book?

First read A Kestrel For A Knave...

It was... We did it at school.

Everybody had to read in order,
and so the big excitement

in the class was if you were
going to get a page to read

that had some swear words in it.

GREG CHUCKLES

Because, you know, to be
allowed to swear in class

was just considered
the best thing ever.

It's just the dream, isn't it?
Yeah. Yeah.

As soon as there was, like, a swear
word they would be shouting,

"Tha dun't like bein' called
a BASTARD, does tha?"

Cos that...

That was the most important part
of the book at that age.

Yeah. Yeah. So that was... Yeah,
that was my introduction to it.

What is it about the book that has
made it a special book for you?

For me, that symbolism of flight,
and of escape from... Yeah.

..from your surroundings, or escape
from...from what's holding you down.

And I think that was very powerful
for me...

..growing up. The desire to escape
has been, historically,

a massive kind of engine for...

..for people from the north, or not
just from the north, but from...

..from working class backgrounds,
because it's, like...

..it gives you some energy. You kind
of want to get away from there.

You want to make something,
or write something,

or sing something in order to help
you... Yeah. ..get away.

To soar with your jesses off.

Yeah. Like, we all need to
take the jesses off now and again.

GREG LAUGHS

God, we do.

God, I wish I could...
And fly... And fly free.

There's a lot of catchphrases
you get from me in this book.

We often used to say that when
we were rehearsing, and that,

"You've got to take the jesses
off". Did you really?

Yeah. In Pulp?
Because you've got to...

Yeah, you've got to, like,
let it... You've got to let it go.

I like that Kes, specifically,

was being referenced in Pulp
rehearsals. Yeah. For sure, yeah.

I know why it
speaks to a Northerner,

but why does it speak to
other people?

Yeah, that's a good...
That's a good question.

I think it's something to do
with if you...tell a story...

..in a specific enough way,
people then realise that

there's something genuine about it,
there's something real about it.

Because you could only
really pick up on those details

if you'd lived that kind
of experience.

In a weird way,
the more specific you make it,

then that opens it up
into like a universal thing.

I don't know. All my creative career
has been dedicated to

trying to work out how that works.
Right. Because I really think

it's true - if you get
the details of stuff right,

suddenly it clicks for people
and they say,

"Oh yeah, this is real, and I'm
going to take notice of it". Right.

So, the devil's in the detail.

Barry Hines' keen observations
of daily life in Hoyland Common

were key to this book.
And that makes sense

to novelist Kit De Waal,
for whom it all rings true.

I know that front room,
I know the kitchen.

I know that school.
So, for somebody like me,

very working-class, it was one of
the few books that you could say,

"I know that world. I know that
pub..." Right. "..I've sat there."

He... It really is a window
into that time...

Totally. ..and that place.

But, I wonder, do you think
that it's still an important book?

It is an important book,
incredibly so,

because there are so few
working-class books

written by the working class
community, by working-class writers.

It's rare to have that.

And what... Why? Why? Why?

How's the landscape changed?

There was a real explosion of
working-class voices in the '50s

and '60s. How is... People say
that, though. People say that, and

whenever we talk about the explosion
of working-class writers,

it's against a backdrop of
a huge body of work

that wasn't working-class.
Of course.

It's just that, you know, whenever
you say "working-class writers,"

The Loneliness Of The Long-Distance
Runner,

Saturday Night and Sunday Morning,

and you very quickly
will run out of titles.

OK. Very quickly.

So, there were just some big hits.
Exactly. Right.

There were some big hits,
and some really important works.

And this is always what I say
about working-class literature -

there's enough room to have it.

You know, we want to see
the whole of the UK,

and the whole of history,
depicted on TV and in literature.

How many Pride And Prejudices
are we ever going to see?

I mean, there must have been
seven or eight of those. I know.

But we have one... I mean,
we're Darcy'd out now, right?

We're Darcy'd out,
and there's one Kes.

Ken Loach and Tony Garnett adapted

three more of Barry's novels,

and there won't be many people
who grew up in the '80s

that didn't watch Threads,

his harrowing story of the aftermath
of a nuclear attack,

which focused on the impact it had
on ordinary working people.

Class is a theme he returned to
time and time again in his work,

a choice he angrily defended.

People say to me quite often,

"Why...when are you going to
progress?

"When are you going...?"
I know what they mean.

"When are you going to write
about something else?"

What they mean is, "When am I going
to start writing about

"the middle classes?" I wonder
if anybody said to Evelyn Waugh,

"When are you going to progress?"
I wonder if they say

to Kingsley Amis, or Martin Amis,
or Margaret Drabble,

"When are YOU going to progress?"

Whilst A Kestrel For A Knave
remains his most high-profile work,

Barry continued to write
unapologetically

about working-class lives.

In later years, he and his second
wife, Eleanor, lived in Sheffield,

where he continued to work
despite failing health.

He wasn't very good at spelling.
That must have been...something...

Was he not?!
..coming on. No.

But, when he was well, when you were
first together, when he was well...

He still couldn't spell very well.

GREG LAUGHS

No, honestly. Good. I'm glad...
I'm glad to get it on record.

Cos I got called in every
five minutes, wherever I was.

I think that's an inspiration
to young writers to find out

that someone who could write as well
as him couldn't spell.

No, his spelling wasn't good. Good.

As I say, he used to phone me
at work every day.

"How do you spell this?"

So...so, obviously Barry was
a working-class lad,

but there was a stage, and, really,
it was at the time you met

when Barry, you know,
had had a lot of success,

and no longer lived in the place
where he grew up,

and, yet, class was still
so important to him.

Oh, yeah. He would be delighted
if somebody of his own,

what he called his "own class"...
Yeah.

..enjoyed it, and then came up to
him and said, "That were brilliant".

Oh, his day would be made.
Yeah.

Yeah.
"That was all right, that was."

That's a quote that somebody said
to us yesterday, that someone...

or someone had said to him

Either "That wasn't bad,"
or, "That was all right,"

and that was enough praise.

Yes.

That was enough. "Not too bad."

"Not too bad," yeah!

And if we went back to Hoyland,
he had to go to the...

..Working Men's Club. Did he?

Yeah, he had to keep going to that
to prove that he was a working man,

or to be the same. Right.

He was desperate,
I think, to be recognised and loved,

and everything, by all
the people round about,

because he just loved them
so much.

So, he still wanted to be accepted
by them...

Oh, he was desperate to.
..and to feel part of them?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

And if anybody ever praised him
for something,

he was over-the-top pleased.

He was just so delighted,
because he thought

that they were a lot better
than he was,

because they were the people
that he loved more than himself.

Yeah.
That's probably a bit mixed up,

but you know what I mean?

'Diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease,

'Barry moved back to Hoyland Common
with Eleanor,

'where he spent many happy nights
at the local Working Men's Club.'

I'm meeting bestselling novelist
Millie Johnson,

a Northern success story,

who feels Barry made
her career possible.

I arrive early only to discover
that, in a final act of sabotage

by the director,
there is a technical problem.

Look if I stand up.

MILLIE LAUGHS

How did you get on with
Barry Hines, Millie?

MILLIE CONTINUES LAUGHING

PUNTER OFF-SCREEN: That's
just not right, is it?

So...

PUNTER LAUGHS OFF-SCREEN

You're still taller than me!

THEY ALL LAUGH

So, Millie, I understand you knew
Barry?

MILLIE GASPS FOR BREATH

No, I didn't.

PUNTER LAUGHS OFF-SCREEN

Jesus Christ!

Last time I did that...

She's made me get on my knees...
..I got barred out.

She's made me get on my knees,
she didn't even KNOW Barry.

MILLIE CONTINUES CHUCKLING

Hold on. Hold on.

No, I didn't. I didn't,
I really didn't.

No, he was just
a big influence on me.

When I started writing,

it was reading Barry Hines
that I thought,

"You know, this guy's done it."

He's from Barnsley,

he had the same background as me,

and he wrote about the people around
him... Yeah. ..here in this town.

I mean, that's the reason
why I'm taking part

in this, really, is you never forget
the first books

that you suddenly think, "Oh, maybe
I... Maybe I COULD read".

Yeah. Yeah!

THEY GIGGLE

"Maybe I could be interested." Yeah.
And that's the power of words,

isn't it? Yeah. To drag you
into the world of books.

And it's a real door-opener.

The longevity of the book
is that it's still relevant today.

And, you know, there are kids
who are still as undernourished,

both, in a, you know...by...
with food and books.

And it resonates as much today
in today's world

as it did then. It should still be
on the...

It's come off the curriculum,
hasn't it?

I know. It should be on
the curriculum...

It should be. I agree. ..because
it's... It is a relevant book.

Yeah. We should start that
movement... We should.

..to get it back on the curriculum.
It started here.

You heard it here first.
Right here,

in the Hoyland Common
Working Men's Club.

There was a particular risk

that anyone who lived and drank with
Barry ran.

As the club's manager, Mick
Whitaker reveals to me,

there was a strong possibility that
you could end up as a character

in one of Barry's novels.

Some of the characters,
that were based in here.

The one that Brian Glover played.
Yeah, the teacher. Yeah.

He were still teaching at Kirk Balk
when I were there.

Ronny were a games teacher, and
he walked out wi' ball under arm,

"Right, I'm Man U, and you're
fuckin' Barnsley". Is that right?

Oh, aye. He were just like
Brian Glover.

Right, and it's Manchester United
versus Spurs in this important

fifth round cup tie
here at Old Trafford,

and it's the fair-haired, slightly
balding Charlton to kick off.

I asked Barry, and that character,
based on Ronny Allen.

Oh, I love...I love the idea that he
was watching...he was watching,

Ronny... He based them characters,
on people that he knew.

You believe those people existed?
Oh, yeah. They did.

HE CHORTLES
And we've all known Billy Casper,

haven't we? We've all known...
Still got some of them in 'ere now.

HE LAUGHS

Yeah, I bet. I bet!

GREG CHUCKLES

Tell me about your experience
of Barry in here.

He weren't...He weren't Billy Big,
no, he were just Barry.

He just used to come in, he'd
buy hisself a glass of red wine.

Sometimes he'd come in wi' wife,
sometimes he was on his own.

He'd just sit here.

Anybody approached him,
he'd have a conversation wi' 'im.

If not, he'd just sit here
with his own thoughts.

He knew what he'd done
for round here. Yeah.

End of day, he wrote that book.

That book is brilliant.
Yeah, it's amazing.

In his later life,
when he were failing,

and he got his Alzheimer's
and that,

he must have thought summat
about this place, because,

as he got worse
with his illness...

..he still came here. Yeah.
So, he must've felt safe here.

Oh, yeah. Well...
He must... There were summat...

..all accounts I've heard
is he loved this place.

There must have been summat
about this place

for him to keep coming here.
Yeah.

This place must have been somewhere
in his head, or his heart,

for him to keep coming here.

Well, there's no doubt
Hoyland Common was in his heart.

I mean, no doubt.
Well, I think so.

There's no doubt about that.
I think so, aye, yeah. Yeah.

It was central to everything he did.

That book...

..will be read...

..100 years from now.

About what it was like to live
at that moment...

..in that place.

But as a writer,
he also had a stance.

And his politics gave him
that stance.

Some people are so poor.

They have such, you know,
poor lives.

Whereas rich people
never say that they're rich.

They're always hard-up, aren't they?

That's what I was angry about -

people who've got loads of money
that never earned any.

'And so we end as we began -

'me, inexplicably filmed from above,
walking up a road.

'As soon as I've put that shirt
in the washing machine,

'I reflect on what I've discovered.'

'There was something that Jarvis
said that made me think

'about the journey
we've been on with this book.

'He said when he was at school
that kids in the class

'were just excited to read
out the swear words,

'because it was legalised swearing
in school.'

And it made me laugh straight away,
because I remember it SO clearly

from being at school myself,
and that kids in the class, who...

HE CHUCKLES

..who wouldn't normally volunteer
to read, were volunteering to read,

because they knew
there was a "bastard" coming up.

And when I started teaching, my
motivation was not great, as well,

because I was reading this book

purely because I knew
it engaged children.

HE CHUCKLES

I wasn't really engaging
with the book myself,

I just knew it would get them.

I knew the story would get them.

Something I didn't appreciate,
as a 20-something-year-old teacher,

that's for sure,

is, er, quite what an angry,
defiant little novel it is.

I should take "little" out.
"Angry, defiant novel."

And I love that about it.

And that...

..because there's so much
that we should all be angry about.

Especially now. There's so much that
we shouldn't just put up with,

going on in the world.

It, sort of, makes the novel feel
more relevant than ever, really.

In its central message of, "We
should be looking after each other,

"and we shouldn't just put up
with the status quo".

I mean, those themes couldn't be
more relevant, could they,

with the shit show
that's the world today?

It's a real work of art.

It's a real rounded work of art.

And I hadn't quite appreciated that.

And it's...

..it's quite a trick
to pull off something...

..as being so specific
to a part of the world,

and make the theme so huge
and so universal.

HE EXHALES SHARPLY

Clever bloke, weren't he?

HE CHUCKLES