Original subtitles

I have had multiple clients tell me that they don't eat on the day that they're

bottoming, which blows my mind because, you know, they might be meeting in the

evening and they won't eat the whole day.

Chris Hemsworth would have to be topping me that night. Yeah, yeah.

Darren Doshy Smith.

Hi. Thank you for joining me.

Absolutely, it's really cool to be here today.

Kicking off bottoming week.

Amazing. I should say that you're a model as well.

I am, yeah. I like to do a little bit of modelling as well.

Therapist, stroke, model.

And trainer, let's throw that in as well.

He's here for every area of your life. Absolutely, I'm versatile.

Well, we'll get into that.

So, we're talking about bottoming.

Firstly,

I just want to start off by saying...

And asking you the question, is there a lot of shame associated with bottoming

for gay men, do you think, and your experience in hearing stories from your

clients? I think there is.

Definitely from the experience I'm hearing from clients, people carry a lot

shame about bottoming.

It's kind of really linked to an internalised homophobia. We get told

narratives growing up that we're not really kind of acceptable as we are

potentially being queer.

Whether or not gay sex or queer sex is actually even OK.

There's lots of kind of examples of straight sex and heterosex happening out

there. And then there's less so of queer sex and gay sex.

And I think into that also then plays this whole idea of roles and whether or

not being a bottom or being a top kind of makes you more masculine or less

masculine. So certainly I think it really plays into it. And it definitely

into the therapy room because a lot of the time we are talking to gay men and

they're trying to understand what masculinity looks like. And if as part

that. they can bottom or they should bottom i think when we look back at it

really comes down to heteronormativity and this kind of sense of um the male is

a top and an alpha and the female is the bottom and passive i think it always

links back to that and being a bottom for some might feel like they are

being pushed into that role of being the feminine one in the in the partnership

um so i guess that There's that shame held around that.

And then when we intrinsically add these other layers, you know, in terms of the

intersectionality, in terms of maybe people of colour, religion, culture, you

know, when we talk about all these different layers, it really starts to

And they are kind of cumulative.

That shame becomes layered on top of layer on top of layer. And it takes

lot of work to undo sometimes.

If you speak to a gay guy in therapy, what...

I don't know if you have sort of things that you can comment on, but what have

you heard in relation to people struggling with the idea of bottoming?

Well, I think, yeah, so whilst trying to maintain confidentiality, I've heard a

lot of different stories around it. I think there's the practical side of

in terms of they might be in the flow of having sex or wanting to bottom with

their partner and they kind of physically can't.

open enough, it becomes painful.

There's that psychological block where they just don't enjoy it. That comes up

often.

There's another layer to this, would you believe?

We also think about, like, age.

And there are people who I see who may have lived through the AIDS crisis.

And again, in the zeitgeist then was this narrative around gay sex being

shameful.

and being something that will kill you. So for them, there's another layered

narrative around bottoming.

Potentially, we are in the era of prep and kind of not really using condoms

anymore, but intimacy looks different for people now. And casual sex is a lot

more kind of readily available.

And so there's that layer of actually, will I die if I bottom?

So it really is quite complex and nuanced.

depending on who you're seeing.

Yeah. Who I'm seeing, in fact, as a client.

Yeah, because I'm sure a lot of people still carry with them, even if they've

processed that part of their life, if they lived through it, or even the

aftermath of that. Yeah. They still will have something niggling away at them

that would go, this is wrong, or this is going to infect me with something that

will kill me, or all of those sort of negative thoughts that you can't really

get rid of.

They quite likely will have buried people that they knew.

they'll be carrying that trauma and the grief around that and it kind of becomes

linked with actually this act of sex killed so and so so it does

become quite complex yeah um and and very lighted really and i guess

that compounded with more sexually liberated youth may even carry a sense

of like Why can't I enjoy sex like these people can? It's because they didn't go

through what you went through, do you know what I mean?

Exactly this. And that's the thing, like the liberation that we have now has

been built off the back of these people. However,

you know, there is that, there may be that mental block around I can kind of

enjoy sex and bottoming or just having unprotected sex just because of

all that's happened before.

And potentially, I think maybe others in our community, maybe the younger folks,

might not understand that, and that might stigmatise the older generation as

well.

The notion, the sort of idea of being a bottom, the

stereotypical notion is it's a bit of a gag, right? It's a bit of a joke, like,

oh, you're such a bottom, which probably insinuates that you're, like, a

submissive, or you're, like... uh very feminine hyper feminine

um it can be used as a slur absolutely to take the piss out of someone yeah um

however tongue -in -cheek it can be it still entered the zeitgeist as a slur in

gay world yeah to take a jab at someone yeah it's like bottom shaming slut

shaming it kind of ties in together doesn't it a top might not be seen as a

in the same way that a bottom might be yeah um

very much the case so with that i think that people might proudly tell you

they're top if you're having like yeah a convo at a pub yeah whereas if you

really love bottoming you may not want to tell people oh i only bottom and and

that just kind of it just rather stigmatizes doesn't it kind of in the

health aspect of it it kind of makes you feel like you're not doing the right

thing or you're not You shouldn't be doing that. Or, you know, it kind of

does impact this idea that you can do what you want to do. Yeah.

But actually from an external perspective and getting that, almost a

externally, it might make you feel like, oh, actually I shouldn't be doing this.

Or maybe I'm doing this too much or, you know, or not enough.

Yeah. But yeah, I hear you on that.

Talking about hierarchy. Yeah.

amongst gay men would you say that the hierarchy is that if you're a dominant

pop yeah then you're perceived to be sort of top of the food chain and if

a submissive bottom then you're kind of seen as the bottom of the food chain if

you will i guess so and i think actually it's really interesting you bring that

you you raise that there because from my perspective when working with clients

when there is a submissive element in sex often it's the

power that the submissive person is giving to the top in order to kind of to

be able to enact in that role play and I think people misunderstand that

because I think actually in that kind of dynamic the sub is in power is in

charge because at any point they could say hey I'm done with this you are not

kind of behaving how i would like you to behave in a respectful way and withdraw

their consent withdraw their power and and could be out there um but i think in

society in our society the thought is that oh yeah you know the alpha top at

top you know does whatever he wants and you know so he holds all the power but

actually i would argue it's different uh to that um

assume both roles um and i think yeah i what i've heard is especially with those

that are giving their power to their dom or to their top um there is that

idea of respect and actually it may not happen that time it might be another

time that you know the top says all that come over and they'll be like no i'm

not doing that because actually you took advantage of me and i don't like that

um but yeah very much still the same kind of around that hierarchy.

If you were to paint a picture based on what the gay community perceive as a top

versus a bottom, what would you, if you were to describe a person that's the

archetypal top and the archetypal bottom, what would they be? And this is

based on stereotypes, it's not what you think.

No. It's just what does the gay community think. Yeah.

And this comes up a lot again because within our community we do have the body

image.

Issues is not the right word, but there is a stereotype around body images. And

I think what I can see within the community is that the dom -top is often

muscular, often a daddy -ish person, but definitely kind of broad, big,

built, with a huge dick.

And then you've got the twinkie, subby boys who are stereotypically

younger looking.

um who would be classed as the as the the sub and we've seen this replicated

also in kind of adult entertainment and where that's been played into but um

that tends to be it but then also there's another layer to this again when

talk about people of color and if we talk about maybe somebody who's black

how for them they may have projected on top on them the fact that they need to

be this big alpha male and they should always top and conversely perhaps

Somebody who's Asian might be kind of seen as being subservient and being a

bottom in a relationship when those roles might not actually be the truth.

Yeah. Are there any cultures or religions where

bottoming would...

uh go against that culture and religion with i don't know do you know how there

are roles i'm just yeah is there from your knowledge of other cultures and

religions um i'm trying to think i don't quote me on this but i think i can

imagine around uh islam that that might be part of the uh i unfortunately i

don't know the ins and outs but

But, you know, I imagine there might be something around there. But I think

generally there is just that cultural aspect. You know, what we do also see is

the effect of colonialism and kind of where a lot of, where the Brits have

previously and they still hold these homophobic laws around homosexuality,

Thinking of the Caribbean, thinking about Africa, thinking about, you know.

many of the former former connoisseurs and i think the cultures from these

spaces really still play into this and i think also um and i'm

thinking of a some client work that i've been doing there is something around

acceptability of being the man in the relationship and being the top um

for maybe families and cultures and society as opposed to being

a bottom who's seen as feminine and kind of portraying this i don't know like

this this this identity and that might be less acceptable yeah because sodomy

laws yeah are still in place in certain countries where it's illegal to have

anal sex yeah so if you come from that country but now you live in britain yeah

you may still retain a hell of a lot of shame and guilt and negativity towards

the act of bottoming or even anal sex in general absolutely i mean in some

countries to this day you know we're not just talking about being criminalized

and imprisoned we're talking about the death sentence so it's a real factor

yeah into people's lives and the residue of coming from a place like that isn't

going to leave you easily no not at all i think it's even more complex really

when when you come from a place like that And you've got to then navigate

fairly liberal space where, you know, there's dating apps that you can go on

find somebody in 10 minutes. And actually, you may have kind of, all you

have seen is these monogamous relationships that look on the face of

monogamous and kind of heteronormative.

And then you're trying to navigate this, the liberalization, the liberalness of

our culture here and how often sex is seen.

transactionally um as being like you know you can have sex with someone and

never speak to them again or be ghosted by them and it's kind of like just okay

you know i've done this and you're off and you know how does that play into the

psyche how does that play into someone's narrative of sex yeah bottoming often

can take trust that actually this person who you're having sex with isn't gonna

hurt you necessarily if that's you know obviously that's not the case for

everyone some people want want kind of rougher sex but it also needs that layer

of trust i think um that comes up a lot yeah um and so when we

have this transactional basis how do you form that yeah i mean the psychology

behind uh bottoming yeah people enjoying uh being fucked yeah

it can range so much from someone who

who enjoys it infrequently with somebody that they trust and they need an

emotional connection with and it's done exclusively in their home.

And then you've got people that, you know, my door's wide open, my hole's in

air, 20 people a day, I don't even want to know your name, I don't want to see

your face. So what's going through that person's head versus the other person's

head I find fascinating because to try and unpack why somebody...

might enjoy totally anonymous repeated anal sex versus someone that wants the

sort of safety emotional partner sex yeah i would love to try and understand

both brains and figure out what is going on there because they're both quite

interesting aren't they absolutely i think i think some of it comes from

up and not seeing yourself in the media or kind of or really out there in

in in the media and thinking about well actually

I need to get validation somehow.

And so sometimes having lots of partners, doing that come dump kind of

be this idea of I am worthy.

It's coming from a place of being valued and being desired and wanted.

It doesn't matter who it is, but actually if they're having sex with me,

have some value.

I'm not saying that's the case for everyone.

That's a stereotype.

Some people just enjoy doing that and being talked by loads of guys and some

people for some people it's the idea of actually having somebody that they they

they trust and they want to kind of have that intimacy with so it's very

different but i think it still lies in um value and validation um that

we get from from our partners and the intimacy of it do you think that we can

through different phases of our life where we're now bottoming more we're now

topping more we're now doing neither

But do you know what I mean? You could look at your sexual timeline and your

and where you were at in life and think, I don't really feel like bottoming in

the next time I'm in a relationship or whatever.

Absolutely. And that dynamic also changes depending on who you're with.

Say you're with somebody who's exclusively a top, then you might have

the role of being a bottom, for example.

Or you may have the opposite or somebody who just does side stuff. And so you

may not do either.

but also I think sexuality is fluid in that kind of, in that we enjoy what we

enjoy. And I don't think, especially, you know, perverse people, I don't think

it necessarily needs to be one thing or another. You could do whatever you

wanted to. And yeah, I certainly have known people who were, you know, very

in their top era and then they flipped over and there'd been a bottom, it like

literally flipped and, um,

yeah, I think it's just kind of, doing what people doing what you enjoy like

know why not but i personally for me it's very partner -based yeah so for me

really is dependent on who i'm with yeah

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It really is dependent on who I'm with. Yeah.

But I worry that unfortunately that for me does fall into the stereotype. I

think that if I was to be honest, it would be if I had a partner who was like

bigger guy.

Yeah. I would want to feel.

dominated by sure so i want him to fuck me whereas if i had a like smaller

person i would then want to do the dominating and i'm like how much of that

the societal constructs of roles and how much of it is an animalistic thing

which is in you to either want to be overthrown by a bigger being or wanting

overthrow like your prey do i mean it's funny yeah we can over intellectualize

that thought by saying well society told us these are tops and these are bottoms

but then sometimes i think like well how much of it is just instincts of wanting

to either like that's interesting charge or be taken charge of that's

interesting though because if you think about it if you were heterosexual would

you have that choice or the thought of um yeah would you ever have the thought

of Oh, I'm bored of always being the one dominating. I would like to be. Yeah, I

wonder. I've never thought about that before. Because I guess that construct

been, you know, society tells us that the smaller one is the sub and the

one is the top or the dom. But actually, where does that come from?

I wonder, actually.

For my mind, I'm thinking, actually, where do your needs come into this

than these roles that are assigned and almost projected?

What is it you want to do or you'd like to do?

And that's what I end up doing a lot of work with in terms of deconstructing

these roles that are projected and thinking about what do you want to do?

What would you enjoy doing?

What would make you, if you weren't kind of constrained by...

all these things, what would you want to do? And kind of working with them in

that way to just enjoy sex and enjoy being able to do it.

The notion that bottoming... I'm going to smile a lot through this.

Sorry.

I don't think it needs to be serious, necessarily. No, it doesn't need to be

serious, but it's like one minute we're talking about the AIDS crisis and the

next minute I'm talking about assholes being dirty.

Okay, hold on. Actually, I'm glad you brought this up because that's exactly

where I was going to next, actually, was the fact of, like, there's that other

layer of, am I clean enough? Am I, like, douching and things like that? And

that's a whole other layer, isn't it? Because there is that sense of, as a

bottom, if you've not cleaned out properly and accidents happen, does that

entirely reduce your capacity to want to bottom?

And that plays into it as well, doesn't it? Like, oh, if I'm not... squeaky

clean up there yeah when in reality what's happening is a penis going into

ass and what sometimes happens but again we might be looking

at shaming around that you know a dom top saying well oh you weren't clean so

yeah i don't want to do that anymore like yeah shame and that stigma i wonder

that's actually where you were going or you had a different yeah i feel well i

feel like there's so much actually to talk about just on this right specific

thing of um the fact that uh your ass is where you shit out yeah and

it's not always going to be in a fuckable state no and um

sex can gay sex can be messy often is it can um sometimes

not feel like you're in the right mood to be fucked all these sorts of other

things which just layer over the psychological things we were talking

before which are just factual stuff it's like my gut hurts today, whatever it

is. But with that comes this overarching idea, which I think is a negative one,

that anal sex is dirty.

And that will be something which was thrown in our face years ago when it was

illegal to be gay. And still to this day, I'm sure that people might go, you

know, fudge packer or bum boy or, you know, filthy, you're fucking that guy up

the ass and look at it in a disgusting way.

Exactly. And I think that goes back to what I was saying to you earlier in

of when sex or heterosexual sex is deemed acceptable,

but gay sex is still taboo. And it's primarily that, isn't it? It is that

of bottoming and sucking someone up the arse and what that implies.

And as you said, it's not always necessarily going to be clean.

if you're doing something spontaneous you might not necessarily have cleaned

or again you said like in terms of maybe not feeling that well and not

wanting to do it but actually when you've got that idea of roles that are

or projected you kind of might feel obliged to and you may it might not have

desired effect uh you know so it's it's interesting uh very interesting so

obviously

That in itself is going to play on your mindset if you're going to be bottoming.

You will be worried about how clean you are. You will be worried about how the

top is perceiving your ass, right? Whether some guys like to shave their

clean if you've got a hairy ass. Some guys like to bleach their ass off, for

God's sake. So there's a lot going on.

with bottoms right when it comes to her being fucked it's a lot and and so i

think with sex when it comes to sex it's very much the mind body connection yeah

and so if somebody's feeling uncomfortable because they're thinking

these things it's going to be really difficult to actually relax and for it

be pleasurable when you're kind of tight you mean you're kind of tightened up

down here in your abdomen and you're pulling everything in it's going to be

really difficult to do that and i think So a lot of the time when I do have

clients who come and talk to me about sex and it being painful and if they're

bottoming, we do things like psychosexual techniques in terms of

what's happening with the body and trying to feel their way through and

connecting. A lot of the time it's doing this on their own rather than doing it

necessarily with the partner to begin with, with no pressure and just to kind

map what feels pleasurable, what doesn't feel pleasurable.

getting to know your body and how to relax it fully, and then bringing in the

partner in, but doing that without the intention necessarily for it to be full

penetrative from an early stage. And, you know, you might do different levels

exploration and gradually getting closer to penetration, but it doesn't

necessarily need to be that.

Because, again, that's the whole point. If you, for example, want to bottom and

you find you can't because...

you just can't relax enough to do that that then feels like a failure because

gay men we should we should be able to like we should be able to have sex

everybody's having sex so and here i am not able to have sex and so that then

plays into the psyche and the psychological state of someone thinking

even do this and you can see how then the thought of having sex might cause

anxiety the thought of not having sex

gives fomo and anxiety again and you're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard

place for want of a better analogy um so it's quite important to take the shame

out of it take the take the charge out of it and kind of go back to your

pleasure and what you need it goes back to what is what are your needs what is

it you want to do and enjoy i think i went totally off track there but i feel

exactly the same yeah and this is why i'm really interested in sex and

psychology yeah and um gay men's behavior in general because i think

this perception that we're all having amazing great life -altering sex all the

time yeah all the time yeah and every time we're doing it's great anywhere any

which way you want any time yeah and i think that um it's really not the case i

think that a lot of us, if not most of us, are still battling a

lot of issues to do with how we have sex, what we want in the bedroom.

And I think that the perception that we're all having great sex all the time

actually making that internal pressure ten times worse.

Absolutely. I think that is actually just prevalent in the gay world, in the

queer world generally.

You see these kind of...

When we look at body image, for example, and you see on Instagram and social

media that, you know, people are Adonis -like.

And so they must be then having the greatest sex of their life.

You see people, you see a curated image of people's lives doing things.

And so as part of that, we'd imagine that, oh, someone's having a shag in

guy, and that's happening, and this is happening. And everyone's living these

fabulous lives. When actually, the reality of it often is that people

are working they are tired they get ill um yes they might be seen in different

places but the reality of it is that we all carry our insecurities we all carry

our own body image issues and and sex issues and traumas and

you know all the rejection is that everyone's having amazing sex doing all

best things and everyone's in rio at the same time it's not the case i mean I

think the Atlantis cruise was on at the moment, and all that my feeds were full

of was everybody on the cruise.

And I'm just thinking, actually, it's not the case that everybody's there.

just there's a subset. But also, I wonder what the experience of these

are, because are they all just having an amazing time? And the same applies to

sex. Some people are having lots of sex, and other people aren't.

For some, it's...

really enjoyable for others it's a coping mechanism a numbing experience

dealing with their trauma dealing with abuse or neglect there is it's so

and i think as well the um how gay men particularly can be incredibly

quick to want to know what you're into yeah looking at app culture yes whereas

lot of us potentially are still figuring that out and we're desperate to have a

kind person to figure that out with yeah so to be told i'm a top are you into

bottoming and but you're curious about bottoming so say you're one you're you

know i've tried it a few times it's never gone well for me i really would

to try it i've got this top here who wants to fuck me yeah i can't say i

be vulnerable enough vulnerable enough to say uh you know i haven't done it

many times i'd really love for you to come around and we experiment with that

that's a really scary thing to say to someone that's just coming up to you

a dick pic and yeah what you're into absolutely absolutely and that that

to be able to say then and it's about consent isn't it there that we're kind

really talking about the vulnerability around saying well actually i don't know

i might enjoy it i might not but also you might need to kind of go slow you

need to like spend time opening me up before you go in and like go in deep

because that probably won't feel very pleasurable to me if we've not done lots

of floor play if we've not had a lots of kissing for example and body contact

and fingering and you know using lots of lube and you know rather than like kind

of this dom -top attitude of right okay put some spit on it and off you go and

that's not going to be conducive to a pleasurable bottoming experience i would

say so Maybe it needs to be more nuanced, I guess, or kind of an open

conversation, open dialogue saying, well, actually, what do you enjoy doing?

What would you like to try? What would you like to try? Yeah. Yeah.

And I guess that's where the trust aspect comes in for some, you know,

they might like to have to try having sex with people that they trust and they

may have kind of done other things with.

Yeah.

So we've spoken about the power dynamics, the archetypal top and the

bottom.

I guess the thing which sits over everything is

masculinity. Yeah. Because gay men are men who are fucking each other.

Yeah.

And in that, there will be comparisons to who's the man, who's the woman. Yeah.

So gay sex will be...

um compared to straight sex when it comes to the majority of the world being

straight and looking at what we're getting up to yeah so the idea that you

be enjoying bottoming but also be masculine yeah

they're kind of in conflict with each other aren't they yeah i think so i

i think they can be in conflict and i but i think it's because there's a

stereotypical view of masculinity i think masculinity can be

so many things but there is a kind of an archetype

of what is deemed masculine somebody who's potentially muscular someone who

be a bit aggressive somebody who has a big dick you know

there is that trope around what masculinity has and it's really

because again different cultures look at masculinity in a different way

The idea here in the UK, for example, is imagine if I came up to you when we

first met, I kissed you on the cheeks.

Yet in Italy, men do that to each other quite regularly.

In places like India, for example, you will hold hands with your friends, with

your other male friends.

Here it's kind of seen as, oh, it's a bit gay, you know, it's a gay thing to

And I think that when we come to that idea of masculinity and think about

it really plays into that.

bottoming top what's acceptable what's not acceptable what how that

also kind of works with submissiveness and dominance and i don't really know

we kind of get past that other than looking at what masculinity is and and i

a lot of work with my clients around masculinity actually that comes up time

again because there are such a lot of pressures that come that fall on

to be

masculine to be you know not to cry not to hold emotions not to not to do this

that and the other when actually when we look at it holistically it's a false

narrative and it's a construct that we take on probably

from quite an early age and then we're told that you know we need to be more

masculine we shouldn't be gay we shouldn't do this you blah blah blah

and next thing you know like you know you've really forced into this

of what is acceptable and what's not someone told me once that there's

this is a gay person so there's nothing more masculine than two men fucking yeah

i was like yeah i kind of agree with you it's like the room is full of like

testosterone absolutely something which i find particularly interesting when it

comes to the psychology of bottoming is this notion of not wanting your roles in

the bedroom to define you outside of the bedroom.

So me and a friend were talking the other day around what we would enjoy

doing in a sexual experience, but then admitting that the reason that we don't

fully commit to it... It's because we wouldn't want people outside of the

bedroom to see us in the light of what we're doing in the bedroom. Right, okay.

So to give you a fake example, it would be if you wanted to be extremely

submissive as a sexual fantasy, but you have a job where, say, you work in

finance or something and you're leading meetings and you have to be very

authoritative, you might not want the persona in the bedroom to be...

because it might impact your real life persona.

What do you think about that?

First off, why does it need to be known?

I guess not publicly known, it's just more in your own mind.

Right. It would stop you from living out your sexual fantasies because you never

want to be seen by another human in a submissive way. That's same again.

Yeah, when I say known, I mean with the person you're doing it with. Right,

okay, yeah. Not like, no, no.

it's on instagram yeah okay i understand what you mean yeah we're about to have

sex yeah i don't even want to see i don't even want you to know like that

guess there is that whole concept but actually when we look at kink and we

at kind of dominant and submissive roles quite often it's those people who have

to like be in control all the time who want to kind of be submissive and

actually relinquish that and have someone else make the decisions for you

terms of what people might not you know where people might not want that to be

known to others there's that shame isn't there in terms of just because i am

both um working in a very high profile role and and kind of in control of

but actually i also enjoy having sex and the sex i enjoy is being submissive in

that hypothetical situation you're you know you've got that mismatch and we're

back to that societal idea of being

masculinity and shame and toxic shame because why can't somebody be both?

When we're talking about authenticity here and actually I was having a really

interesting conversation with a client around authenticity because what for

authenticity, what they thought it means is that they would just remove any mask

they hold and they'd be exactly the same in every arena. And that's not the

case. As somebody who would be in place of work I might be very different to

somebody who's in the bedroom who is different to somebody who is hanging out

with his friends and just having a laugh authenticity doesn't mean that we are

exactly the same in all these spaces nobody's like that and I think

it really plays into that point of people not wanting things to be known

takes that vulnerability and that trust

um having that conversation to say well actually look i don't want this to be

known outside of this but i really want to explore that idea can we can i trust

you can we try some of these things and see how that feels and i i get i get it

like maybe if you're just meeting somebody on a dating app for the first

you might not necessarily do that or want to do that or feel comfortable to

that but if you have somebody who you are kind of in a trusted space with that

you may have met previously that might be a good way to to trial some of those

things but having those conversations around consent around um like holding

confidence around all those things would really help in that and when we come to

bottoming again you know being submissive and and being a bottom and

to do that would take a lot of trust and psychological safety to be able to

fully enjoy that situation i don't know if that answered your question no i

totally know yeah it's all about uh feeling um safe with your partner yeah

essentially just knowing that i trust you you're not going to judge me yeah i

can do what i want in here we can experiment we can try new things and

not going to see me any differently outside of these walls nor are you going

advertise what we did here tonight exactly it's all about that judgment

it's like kind of Just because this is who I am in this space doesn't mean

that's who I am out there.

And I don't need to be the same in every space.

I can be authentic in different ways.

Something which I've experienced myself, and I don't know if this is a sad

thing, so I'd be curious to know if you've heard this from clients, is

I've bottomed, sometimes I've left with a lingering feeling of guilt.

Or like a feeling of...

i did something wrong yeah or they've given me something or i've left with

something and they've gone off and done their own thing i don't know it's right

okay but it's sort of a reflective feeling of potentially i've done

wrong this is my own experience yeah i can only describe it as guilt and i

potentially think that must just be to do with shame and the idea that when i

was younger bottoming with this dirty thing that you're not supposed to do But

I'm just curious, do you think other people feel that way?

I think that's quite complex, I think, actually.

We'll start our session. Yeah, we're starting our session now. But I think it

can be complex. I think it also goes back to the idea of what sex means to

And if it's this transactional nature, actually, what has it left you with?

Because actually, I would say, and I would say from...

experiences from clients that it's a very vulnerable position to be in if

bottoming um and especially kind of for the first time or or early on when you

start bottoming it it takes a lot of energy to do that and i'm wondering if

kind of sense of being left with something is that kind of the shame

what society thinks of people who bottom or also kind of what does it mean in

terms of intimacy and and what's just happened and actually is sex necessarily

transactional in that way and they've gone off and you know gone on about

day and you're like sat here going oh okay what is that what was that like you

know i can't help but smile but the words i used to say left with something

exactly you kind of have been left with a load yeah

Oh, shit.

Anyway. And that.

Yeah.

Sorry, hold on.

I actually think the feeling I just described to you and what you just said

make sense.

I wonder if after women have had sex with men, they also feel a bit, maybe

sometimes that it lingers with them slightly longer than it lingers with the

guy. Yeah. Because also having a dick in you is more invasive.

You can tell when you've been fucked, right?

Absolutely, absolutely. Or the hours after.

So you do have a physical sensation of this happened, good, bad, whatever.

Whereas if you've topped, you don't have the same sort of after feeling. No,

it's kind of like you've come and you're off you go.

But yeah, definitely, if you're bottoming, you can definitely feel that,

you? Yeah.

And depending on how...

like how is the word i'm looking not aggressive but um like how how kind of

energy wise it was how energetic it was it can be more kind of you can

definitely feel it more than than other times i would also say kind of when

we're looking at being able to bottom and tightness and kind of that

of body mind if it's not been pleasurable and

you know you've not been able to relax enough to be able to allow yourself to

penetrated in a pleasurable way that would then additionally feel like kind

be left to that sensation but it's interesting you say that about i wonder

it's the same for women i'm assuming kind of that we're talking about women

have sex with men and men who have sex with men yeah um i wonder if that's

definitely you know is the case and again we're back to that whole male top

feminine female bottom

So I wonder, you know, yeah, that's interesting.

Well, I'm doing an interview with a rectal doctor on the same week as this.

going to ask questions around, you know, the injuries that can happen during

anal sex.

So there is obviously that as well. If you've been fucked, you could have a

tear, you could have a bit of bleeding.

Absolutely. You might have to dispose of some...

remnant yeah absolutely so there is there is the sort of aftercare or the

aftercare which no doubt will leave you feeling a bit more like you need to oh

i've got a yeah you got your end away and i now have to deal with maybe a bit

an annoying medical yeah and i and i think so you're speaking of the the

physiological kind of after effects of it and i'm thinking actually they're

psychological after effects of it because so sex And intimacy can release

many different hormones, can't it? And kind of can flood the body with this

feeling of pleasure potentially.

But also, as you said earlier, like if you're left with this sensation of guilt

or whatever, I think aftercare then becomes quite important.

And ideally, that would be with the partner that you've kind of, you know,

might check in with you and like kind of you may have some...

time where you can have the intimacy part afterwards which we know isn't

the case but and doing some hugging and doing some some of those bits that's not

the case there is kind of other things that you could do in terms of relaxing

doing a bit of self -care doing something you enjoy read a book listen

have a bath you know like there's that consideration of the aftercare that you

might need as well um

As you said, bottoming may be painful. It may result in other things happening.

And psychologically, we can kind of consider this as well.

Do you think when we look at bottoming and topping and rolls, do you think that

some gay couples might encounter friction

if...

there's like a strict top in the relationship and someone feels oh you

just want to top now i'm bored and then the roles that were set out quite early

on want to shift that can probably create conflict right potentially

guess um straight couples there's less of that there's less chance of that

happening i guess i guess So, I guess so. I think there can still be a power

dynamic in heterosexual relationships because it doesn't necessarily need to

the man that's always dominant in that sense. It's very much the case that if

there's somebody who is a strict top and then kind of doesn't really want to

deviate from that can bring challenge in a relationship.

I think also it depends on...

what that relationship looks like and what you've kind of decided on between

yourself so if a relationship is diverse and you've kind of opened yourself up

and you know as seems to be quite a norm these days especially from a lot of the

couples that i've been working not couples but a lot of the people that i

with um they may be able to find their uh their chance to talk

in other ways they're going to seeing other people or introducing a third

into the relationship maybe having threesomes or moresomes or whatever um

again i think it always goes back to that communication piece the trust piece

and kind of like being able to work with that but yeah i agree with you i you

know all these things do bring um couples and people into therapy Again,

go back to what I said at the start of this kind of session that we were

sex comes into play everywhere. So if you're in therapy and you're not having

conversations with your therapist about sex, it baffles me.

It really baffles me. I will have conversations with my clients about sex.

We'll bring it into the room. We'll normalize it. We will, you know, say

everything is welcome here.

It doesn't... need to be shameful because what we do in the therapy room

model what healthy relationships look like um and sex is part of relationships

you know people have sex well they don't have sex or whatever you know it's just

part of life do you think that um if there was to be a person

setting the agenda when you sleep with each other do you think it's more likely

to be the person getting fucked

The person getting fucked?

For the bottom. Yeah. They're more setting the agenda of when sex is

because I guess they need to feel in the right physical mood, but also in the

right headspace to want to be fucked.

I don't know, really, to be honest with you. I get it, because you're saying

kind of in terms of...

Maybe they'd have to prep to do that if that's something they want to do in

terms of douching and things like that. But also kind of being in the right

psychological space and wanting to do that. I think the reason I ask is

it's more that I'm maybe insinuating that the bottom has more power than they

think. Yeah. Absolutely. Because it's like, yes,

we can have sex. Yeah. No, I'm not in the mood. Yeah. No, I don't want to do

that. If you're in a relationship where you are the strict bottom, you're the

strict top, I'm completely happy with that. Yeah. I guess.

there is something quite powerful about being the one who sets when you have

sex, right?

Absolutely. But I think also, I think we need to define sex.

Because I think when we talk about sex, and we're looking at it in a very narrow

perspective here, we're talking about anal sex.

Yeah. Sex can be different for different people.

So, you know, maybe the bottom's not feeling up to being penetrated, but

actually wouldn't mind, like, sucking or wanking.

Or even intimacy can look like being on the sofa and making out.

could feel like a pleasurable kind of sexual experience of sorts without

actually there being necessarily any contact or any penetration whatsoever.

So I think, yes, you're very right. You know, there is that sense of the bottom

can hold the power. I suppose anyone can hold the power, but if that's not kind

of where they're at at the time, yeah, very much so. They can kind of put a

to it. But then also, I wonder what sex needs to be. I think if it's... doesn't

necessarily need to be penetrative can it be kind of just having a bait or

sucking and wanking you know it can be it can be what you make it it doesn't

need to be quite so strict and i and again that definitely goes back to that

conversation it's kind of if it's always somebody who's sexy if sex is always

somebody who's topping and the other party who's bottoming and that's how it

always looks it it might cause challenge in the relationship and having

that opportunity to talk about it and and actually that may help people who

are new to bottoming to relax and kind of have that foreplay around being

able to kind of be in that person's company and and and and for one of a

world like relax into being able to take a dick um

Because there's that trust that builds, that intimacy that builds as part of

that. Well, I'm glad you said that, because I've actually spoken about this

before, more than once, about what is sex.

For gay guys, to be all or end all could be seen as just fucking the ass, when

actually so many of us are not having anal sex all the time.

And a lot of our sexual experiences are just...

kissing or wanking or oral sex or whatever and to me personally all of it

so if I just jacked off with some girl last night I could claim the

next day I had sex with her and sometimes that gets faced with

didn't actually have sex you just tossed each other off you know what you do in

high school but for me in that moment that's all I wanted to do and I don't

to feel like I didn't live up to this grand experiences yeah that i'm not

you know what i mean i think it's important to say that sex can be

that happens in the bedroom of someone and i think it's so much more than just

the physical connection i think we're talking about the the intimacy there um

you know kissing and touching and that that all forms part of it and so for

someone who doesn't feel like bottoming or topping and having penetrative sex at

that particular point on that particular day, doing everything else might feel

mind -blowing. And it might be mind -blowing for them and actually fulfills

in every way that they wanted.

And so for them, it might be like all the bells and whistles.

Who's to say what's right for you and what you want?

We're back to those needs and expression of those needs. Because, yeah, we

don't... I guess, going back to what you were saying earlier around, you know,

everybody's having loads of sex and everybody's having tons of amazing sex.

And I guess, really, when you think of that, when I think of that, it seems to

be like everyone's fucking each other and penetrating each other. And

sex is so much more than that.

Also, you know, we're talking about bottoming primarily.

Yeah.

And some guys might listen to this and think, I don't actually have any shame.

don't have any thing I need to unearth to do with my feeling of not wanting to

bottom. And conversations like this might be annoying because it's like,

telling me I don't want to bottom because I've got some deep -rooted idea

being something which is definitely wrong.

When actually, a lot of guys just don't want something in their ass. Yeah. And I

think that it's okay just to say, that's cool, right? Absolutely.

I guess what we're talking about here is those that want to try.

different things and they're kind of curious about it but are finding that

there's kind of resistance against that and and this is kind of for them more

than anyone else um if you know what you enjoy go do that

with bottoming we should say as well that um there's the preparation

element of it yeah which people can and cannot do yeah um

the douching admin what you've eaten that day how you're feeling all that

of play on you um and that could be seen as a bit of an annoying chore for

bottoms i i have had multiple clients tell me that they don't

eat on the day that they're bottoming which blows my mind because you know

might be meeting in the evening and they won't eat the whole day and i just

think wow

how is that you know i get grumpy when i don't eat yeah the thought of of

not eating and then waiting till the evening just because i might be having

um this really kind of baffles me um but yeah people do have their

own regimes and i think there's that fear around what if i end up being dirty

and if i do eat and you know it comes out then you know what does that mean um

What does that mean about me? What does that mean? This person might not invite

me back. There's all sorts of things that go along with that. But yeah, I

for some people, that is a routine that they do to get to prepare for bottoming

in terms of douching and kind of maybe they might have a play to try and open

if they're particularly tight. You know, there are lots of different routines

that people do and not eating or, you know, kind of being careful with what

they've eaten.

maybe the day off or the day before i mean it can only really i guess to be

cognizant of that might help you might not have like a an indian takeaway the

night the day before you you're going to be bottoming in the morning uh

potentially i don't know i don't know if any um i don't know if being fucked is

ever worth not eating on the day for me personally i i i would be a nightmare i

would be

Be so grumpy. Chris Hemsworth would have to be topping me that night. Yeah.

When we're looking at tools or ways that people who are experiencing

negative thoughts, whether it's very obvious, like a sense of shame or

guilt, or a fear around it, any of that, what do you think?

are some techniques that people can put in place yeah help them overcome that

and i suppose that there's like two elements there's the physical element

but then there's also the psychological element which you might need to work on

absolutely and so let's touch the psychological bit first in terms of if

is shame often it's been inherited it's kind of come from society it's come from

others and we've internalized that and that kind of that internalized

that we're carrying

or even kind of the misogyny that we're carrying, you know, in that sense, I

think it's important to accept it, to acknowledge that that might be there,

to sit with it and say, well, actually, this is just part and parcel of it for

me. So, for example, you might say, well, actually, I feel like I am being

submissive. If I'm bottoming, I don't like that vulnerability.

It's what a woman would do. It's not what I would do.

And it's important to acknowledge that and say, well, okay, these are beliefs I

have. They're not necessarily rational.

They've come from an external source, and I've internalized them now, and I'm

kind of fearing being judged from other people, fearing being judged by myself.

And sitting with these thoughts and accepting them is the biggest part of

would say, allowing them to be present.

also realizing that they may not be true.

So that's a big part of it. And kind of the acceptance that comes from being

able to sit with them and tolerate these feelings that you may have is really

important. I think when it comes to like the physiological side of things, very

much, as you said, kind of doing things like body mapping, exploring different

parts of your body.

um and and seeing what feels in what feels pleasurable what you enjoy what

don't doing that on your own potentially um in fingering yourself potentially

using lots of lube um and being present in the moment because i think quite a

lot of sex um can also be interlinked with what we see in in porn

um and what you know people are doing in terms of like okay that that guy's

taking that huge dick and actually that might not feel reasonable for for you or

for for them and so i think exploring gently exploring slowly

at your own pace that doing what feels comfortable for you um lots of lube

practicing with things like dildos um

And kind of just being comfortable with that. And I think when the two come

together, where you're able to enjoy self -pleasure or even with somebody

enjoying that pleasure and also being cognizant of these feelings and these

thoughts that are coming up for you and being able to say, well, actually, I'm

here in this moment right now.

What's going on in my body? What am I feeling? What am I enjoying?

We don't necessarily have to go straight to penetration.

I think also another thing that would be useful is when you're in that position

where actually you're trying to bottom and it's not working, taking the blame

away.

And it's really easy when you're in that position of like having sex and feeling

that I've done something wrong.

Oh, this is going to pot and getting into your own head. And before you know

we all know that, that sensation of kind of the idea of like, trying to get hard

for example and then getting in your head about not being able to get hard

that's not going to help you get hard at all and it's the same for bottoming in

terms of trying to relax but getting anxious about that and the more anxious

get the less likely you are going to be able to connect relax and enjoy the

experience so i think those things are really important and what about if

had a negative experience or multiple negative experiences bottoming say it

a messy event, say it was incredibly painful and you couldn't put someone's

in you, or there was bleeding or something, or afterwards you had to go

doctors, who knows? But you've just had repeated bad experiences.

How do you then not just write it off?

I guess it depends on what you want out of that. Do you want to continue to

explore being a button, or do you not? And if you do, you know, seeking the

that... you might need we don't know at that stage if it's psychological if it's

physiological you know if we're talking about pain and blood if we're talking

about being messy then that's a whole other thing maybe kind of preparing in a

different way or being able to accept that well actually i'm being fucked it's

going up my ass if things get messy they get messy like you know we'll put a

towel down and just try and and i guess that comes from potentially also being

with somebody who you can say look if things get messy

i'll just go and clean up and i'll come back and we'll just like try again

whereas if it's somebody you don't know you don't trust you might not be able to

have that conversation and be vulnerable in that moment um so i guess like

reaching out for help um looking at sources where um you can i

know lgbtq lgbt hero has really good resources for uh for gay men who

are you know trying to find resources for bottoming, for example.

And then also kind of seeking help. If it's been traumatic, you may need

additional help.

And so much is a message to the partner, absolutely. Yeah.

It's to just be not a dickhead. Yeah. Yeah, if someone shits the

bed. Well, we're back to that vulnerable position you're in. Like, literally,

you're in a vulnerable position.

You're... You're being penetrated by somebody and, you know, yeah, don't be a

dickhead and, like, kind of just be chill about it, quite frankly.

There's no better way to put it, really. If it happens, it happens. What do you

do?

Do you think with gay men, the idea of bottoming,

say, gay sex wasn't something we were ever taught?

Nor did a lot of us have friends at the age people started having sex to compare

stories and to ask advice. Like, oh, how do you do? Oh, this happened the other

night. So we're all kind of figuring it out. And even a lot of us come out late

in life.

So the embarrassment of figuring out how to have gay sex at 45 might seem

completely overwhelming.

But with all of that, do you think that there's anything in the idea

that... Some people are denying themselves pleasure when it comes to

because it's been something which just is so not present and so not

normal for them. But actually they could go their entire life and never bottom.

Yeah, absolutely.

Which could potentially be a sad thing because we're not allowing ourselves to

enjoy the full depths of our bodies. Of our sexual experiences. Yeah.

Absolutely. I mean, I've spoken to...

You know, I do work with older queer people and, you know, that has been a

reality for some people in terms of not even engaging in intimacy or not

engaging in bottoming necessarily, but, you know, in that sense.

I think another point I really wanted to add there was you kind of spoke about

not seeing sex in the media, in the mainstream media, but I'm also saying

the sex that we do see often is unrealistic.

because it's often porn where you know people have huge dicks um uh

potentially have huge dicks or you know it's just it's a it's a it's an

artificial environment where people are having sex and so it's not realistic so

you're almost having to not seeing the other side of it in the mainstream media

and then seeing this unrealistic sex in porn and all of a sudden it feels like

everyone should be behaving like these adult entertainment entertainers who are

you know able to fuck for hours and there might be shame around that as well

it's it's it's difficult it's a difficult thing um and you're

right it's not normalized is it community does a lot in terms of we may

friends and our peers about how they do things but also for some people there

isn't that There isn't that kind of person they can turn to and say, hey,

I don't know how to do, I don't know how to prep for bottoming. Yeah.

What do I do? How do I do it?

Yeah.

And I've had very frank conversations with clients about this because, you

they may not have had that experience.

So, yeah, I guess it's kind of turning to community, turning to people that you

can trust that aren't going to judge you, make you feel silly because you

know how that works.

And choosing partners that you can explore your body with.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, speaking of douching, I filmed a mini documentary where I meet a company

called Polary Lab. Yeah. Do you know these people?

I've heard of them, yeah. I've seen them on, like, social media. Yeah. And

they've invented this ball, which is in sort of,

which... It eliminates the deuce. Yeah. So you actually put it up in you and

then you get fucked.

Yeah. So I went to the laboratory where they make this. Amazing. And saw them

and the fuck machine they have and they explained... What, to test it? Yeah. The

fuck machine? Okay, right. Amazing. They built this fuck machine that they have

fake feces of various levels.

Okay. That they put into the machine to see if the ball stops the shit from

falling out. Amazing.

And it was... fascinating and that product launches i think this year okay

it'll be interesting to see how people take yeah absolutely but yeah i mean

there's a lot um there's a lot that can enter your mind when it comes to

bottoming the physical elements psychological elements the preparation

aftercare whatever um but yeah i think what we just said then about finding a

partner that you can experiment with and feel safe with is probably the most

important part of the whole thing.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think there's that aspect, but also kind of knowing

your body and doing your own self -exploration, knowing what feels good,

doesn't feel good, what you consent to or what you'd like to consent to, what

you wouldn't, where that kind of all kind of sits.

I think the self -exploration is quite important as well.

Just to be able to relax without any pressure.

If somebody is thinking about bottoming and they've not been able to do it

successfully, this is a good way of doing it. This is part of the

techniques of learning about your body and kind of gradually building towards

penetration without the pressure.

And hey, I'm sure that popping comes with its own challenges.

Absolutely. Layers of expectation.

I'm sure there's a whole psychology...

behind the idea of topping yeah and you know the stereotypes that exist with

bottoming also exist with topping like we mentioned so the idea that you may

need to live up to those yeah that's a whole nother conversation as well

absolutely there are i guess with with topping you do have some other medical

interventions that you can use things like vagra and things like that yeah May

make it a little easier, but absolutely there are challenges that come with that

too. We can talk about that another time. Yeah, absolutely.

So if anyone was watching this and they wanted to work with you directly as a

therapist or a model scout, wants to hire you, be the face of something, you

take private clients, do you? I do, yeah. I work privately as well.

So my practice is called Oak Path Therapy.

um you can find me at oak path .co .uk um and yeah both kind of in terms of the

modeling in terms of the speaking at different corporate um environments to

about edi and um all sorts of things neurodiversity etc and uh for private

therapy you can find me on this great well who doesn't want a therapist who's

model like come on you're gonna be looking at them staring at them once a

okay all right now we'll spend exactly

All right, Darren, thank you very much. Thank you so much, John. It's great.

This video, unfortunately, will have to be censored for YouTube, so don't miss

the full uncensored documentary over at watchfallout .com right now.