Original subtitles

Downloaded from YTS.BZ

But I reported...

what I saw.

Official YIFY movies site: YTS.BZ

Professor Karski, you know that the subject of this film

is the destruction of the European Jews,

the Holocaust.

I would like to know, among all the official political leaders

to whom you delivered your report,

did you have the chance to mention

specifically the Jewish problem?

I would like to know what were the possibilities for you to talk about this

and who was interested, how they were interested.

- I understand. - How they reacted.

So now, I understand the subject of this film

that you are making is... you hope it will be shown eventually.

Probably the second part.

You want to have testimonies, interviews for historical records.

Let's say for some archives.

So now... So I understand I must be very precise

and now I am asking you

to bear with me and to understand

my possibilities and my mission in the so-called Western free world.

Dealing with the Polish government leaders,

political leaders, Polish Jewish leaders.

Because of the nature of my mission,

I travelled, as you know, several times.

Because within the statute of my mission,

I was going back to Poland.

I was a very important man. I was a hero.

Everything was at my disposal.

I met the most important men.

They catered to me.

I could...

To whomever I spoke,

I could tell them, "I didn't finish. I have more to say."

On many occasions,

I had such a situation

with General Sikorski, whom I saw at least five times.

"General, I didn't finish yet."

He would say, "Lieutenant...

"my secretary will inform you when I will be free for you."

So with the Polish side of my mission,

I had great possibilities to report.

And I did report.

Now, you are asking me

the second part of my report.

We have to make a distinction

with the English or American

certain political leaders, like Jewish leaders...

Oh, yes, they listened to me.

They let me report.

With those great intellectual leaders,

poets, writers, et cetera,

well, frankly, I felt free.

And I would, so to say, press myself.

"Still there is more. Still I want you to know more."

H G Wells, Koestler, these kind of people.

Now...

speaking about government leaders

in Great Britain and the United States

I met all of them

as a result of the Polish government,

usually the prime minister's,

request.

In London, the prime minister asked them

to see some recently arrived agent from the Polish Underground,

his report might be of interest

to His Majesty's government

or to that particular minister,

or government leader.

In the United States, it was the ambassador, of course.

Everything was in his hands.

Now, you must realise, at that time,

I was not allowed to have any contact.

I had to report to the proper offices

every man I met.

I was free to go to a theatre, to a nightclub, to dinner.

I had plenty of money, of course, to buy myself new clothes, whatsoever.

I could not have contacts on my own initiative.

Only as instructed.

"You are going to see such-and-such a leader."

The same in the United States, of course. I lived in the embassy.

I was not allowed to live in any hotel.

I lived all the time on the premises.

And how did it happen with Roosevelt?

With President Roosevelt...

I must.. Well...

The Polish ambassador in Washington

was informed about my existence in London.

Before coming to London,

I didn't expect to go to the United States.

Now, it was the Polish ambassador,

who in his reports to the prime minister suggested

he thinks that it may be useful

if, before returning to Poland,

Karski will come secretly to the United States.

The ambassador is pretty sure

he will get him in touch

with key members of the government and the proper people.

He hopes the president himself

will be interested in his report.

Once we received this report, General Sikorski tells me,

"Lieutenant, you go to Washington before you go to Poland."

I arrived in Washington.

Ambassador Ciechanowski was already totally acquainted with my material.

I stayed at the embassy.

As you can imagine, every morning, every evening,

we talk about what happened in Poland.

The most, by the way, intimate talks

were when there was a sort of a ritual in the evening

after dinner, before going to bed,

the ambassador would walk his dog, Groszek.

I would walk with the ambassador.

He always invited me, "Johnny, come with me."

Then we would again. Most intimate.

Even Madam Ciechanowska...

She may see this film. She lives now in Belgium.

Even she was not present.

And then sometimes, his worries and his fears and all this.

At a certain point, he tells me,

"Johnny, listen...

"The president of the United States wishes to see you."

Now he briefs me.

As a matter of fact,

all the time he was criticising me on one point.

Mainly, "Johnny, you are inclined to talk too much.

"You must acquire precision. You have precision.

"To be concise. You realise people I am going to introduce you to,

"they are the most powerful people.

"Poland is a minor concern for them.

"They have the whole war. They wage this war.

"So be careful.

"Concise, precision.

"Concentrate rather on their questions.

"Try to answer their questions."

The President comes.

He gives me the same briefing, "Now, you be careful.

"You are going to see the most powerful man on this globe.

"This man evidently is busy.

"He thinks in terms...

"of the war, of humanity."

Roosevelt had this inclination,

about which Ambassador Ciechanowski instructed me.

"We have a president. He thinks in terms...

"He thinks after this war

"the human race

"will be organised in such a way, no more wars.

"And he will play the key role in this arrangement.

"So now, again, be brief. Be concise.

"I am not going to take part in the conversation.

"I will go with you,

"as required by diplomatic protocol.

"I have to certify your veracity,

"introduce you to the president.

"Then I will sit quiet.

"So don't rely on me.

"I will be unable to help you in any way.

"It may be that the president will ask me a question.

"Then I will answer his question.

"So I don't know how the conversation will develop.

"I don't know how long you will stay with the president.

"Only you are on your own, and now be wise."

With this kind of briefing,

limousine, whatsoever, brings us to the White House.

Ambassador punctual, president punctual.

The Secretary leads me to his office.

I see Roosevelt.

He looked like a world leader.

- Like a world leader? - World leader. Yes.

As a matter of fact, he struck me

that he was more than the President of the United States.

His formulations, his gestures.

He did consider himself a world leader.

He sits behind his desk.

Behind him, of course, all American flags!

You know, very impressive. The whole wall covered by them.

Very high chair.

Grand seigneur.

Of course, I was warned he will not get up when he shakes your hand.

He is crippled.

He shakes hands.

"Please sit down. Mr Ambassador."

He says, "Mr Karski...

"I know about you.

"I have been informed

"about your great work contribution

"to the Allied cause.

"I am sure

"that you would like me to be informed

"about things in Poland.

"Please..."

Now, you see,

I realised as I heard it, throughout my entire mission,

for me the Jewish problem was not the only problem.

For me, the key problem was... Poland.

Curzon Line.

Soviet demands.

Communists in the underground movement.

Fear of the Polish nation.

"What is going to happen to Poland?"

This was the emphasis.

Of your mission?

Yes. Of my mission, of course. And my concern, naturally.

I speak to the President in those terms.

Expectations. Fears among the leaders.

"All hope, Mr President,

"has been placed by the Polish nations

"in the hands of Franklin Delano Roosevelt."

- You said this? - Oh, yes.

- In proper words? - Oh, yes, in the same words.

Not "The President," "Franklin Delano Roosevelt."

He sits.

I describe, thinking how much time I have.

He sits.

Then I come to the Jewish problem.

"Mr President,

"before having left Poland,

"I was charged with this mission

"by the most important Jewish leaders.

"They organised for me two visits in the ghetto.

"I saw an extermination camp.

"The name is Belzec.

"B-E-L-Z-E-C.

"Mr President,

"the situation is horrible.

"The point is,

"without the outside help,

"the Jews will perish in Poland."

He enters.

I remember every second of this conversation.

- "The Allied nations..." - Excuse me. Excuse me.

- What did he answer specifically? - Nothing. He enters the picture now.

- Nothing. - This was the end of your report?

Yes.

- Nothing. - It came at the end, the Jewish...?

I never had the chance.

So now his answer:

"The Allied nations are going to win this war.

"No more wars.

"Justice will be done.

"Your country will be alive again

"more prosperous than before.

"Criminals will be punished.

"The United States will not abandon your country."

As a matter of fact, now he says,

"Poland, as compensation,

"will receive East Prussia

"or a part of East Prussia.

"No more Corridor."

And now to the ambassador,

"Mr Ambassador, what do you think about it?"

Of course, Mr Ambassador loves it,

only he wants all of East Prussia, not part of East Prussia.

Short conversation over there.

Then: "When you return to Poland,

"you will tell your Polish leaders

"this country will never fail them.

"They have a friend

"in the President of the United States."

And now he does ask me questions. Oh, yes.

Underground movement.

Do you know what question he asked me?

"Do I understand correctly, young man'

"that before the war,

"Poland was essentially an agricultural country?"

"Yes, Mr President, it was so."

"Well, now, what we understand, in the Russian campaign,

"Germans had to use a tremendous amount of horses.

"Did they take those horses from Poland?

"Because with your agricultural economy,

"you need horses."

"Mr President...

"Yes..."

He asked me other questions.

I had no chance, except in my initial statement,

to say, "Mr President, listen to me."

Well, you don't speak to the President of the United States.

No Jewish problem was mentioned until the end of the conversation,

which lasted one hour, 20 minutes.

But excuse me to insist, but it is my theme.

About the Jews, did he ask specific questions?

No.

- No one? - No. Not a single one.

- Not a single one? - Not a single one.

What I said, I said only on my initiative

as an opening statement.

When he asked me,

"I presume you want to pass certain information,

"bring attention..."

Okay. You gave everything on the Jews at the end?

General terms. I saw the ghettos.

But he didn't ask one specific question.

Not a single one.

And how do you explain this?

I don't...

He did make a gesture.

Now, what was the significance of this gesture?

Was it a gesture or was it an expression of goodwill

of the centre of power,

who does not deal with particular problems?

I don't know until today.

With minor problems?

Wiser people than I could not decipher F D R.

He was a great man mainly.

After we left the White House...

And then, of course, as you can imagine, we returned to the embassy.

And the ambassador gives me one typist.

He goes to another room, another typist.

And his instructions:

"Now you write your report. I write my report.

"Johnny, be careful.

"Everything counted.

"If you noticed his smile, put it in the report.

"We just saw the centre of power of humanity.

"And then we will compare both our reports.

"I have to send a report to London."

Of course.

So we cooked up whatever it was.

Then comes the problem.

I think it was next day. Very soon.

It might be even the same evening, as a matter of fact.

He sees me, the ambassador,

and says, "Well, Johnny,

"now I got from the White House

"a message.

"Apparently, the president

"would like you to see the following individuals.

"And he wants you to pass to them all your reports."

Now, on that list... It was a long list.

Some individuals, for instance...

Oh, yes, there was Rabbi Wise,

whom I saw already, by the way,

Goldman,

Waldman, I remember.

As a matter of fact, a certain Jesuit priest, Father Walsh.

Oh, there was a Supreme Court justice.

- Frankfurter. - Justice, yes.

Justice Frankfurter.

I saw him on the recommendation of President Roosevelt.

But there were names: Secretary of War Stimson,

Secretary of State Cordell Hull,

Archbishop Spellman,

Archbishop Mooney, Mooney,

Archbishop Stritch,

the apostolic delegate, Cicognani.

The delegate from the pope.

The apostolic delegate from the pope.

Now, I interpreted this, and the ambassador,

that the president was interested in the Jewish problem.

Only, on his level,

the problem was not directly, so to say, in his jurisdiction.

He sent me to the people

whom he considered actually could take some action,

knowing that I was sent to them on his recommendation.

It might have been also...

Did you feel yourself the tragic discrepancy

between the demands and the expectations,

hopeless expectations of the people in Warsaw,

I mean the Jews that you met,

and this result, this visit?

- Because there is no communication. - I understand.

History passed. Thirty-five years passed.

So I understand your film. Your archives, film archives.

After my audience with President Roosevelt,

I was so overwhelmed by this fact.

I reported to the President of the United States.

I didn't think about anything else,

I was totally overwhelmed by him.

Years passed, and of course, now I think about it.

What was the significance? And I don't have the answer.

Perhaps he wanted, expected, others to do.

Perhaps they did do things.

None of the Allied leaders, on the level as I met them,

would tell me what he was going to do.

You understand?

A few days later,

the ambassador tells me,

"Johnny, now you are going to see Justice Frankfurter.

"He will come here."

Justice Frankfurter was a member of the Supreme Court?

Of the Supreme Court.

Now, again, he gave me his briefing.

- "He will come here, " he said? - "He will come here."

As a matter of fact, except cabinet members,

usually people came to the embassy.

- I lived in the embassy. - Okay.

So, "He will come here."

Now, he gave me his briefing:

"Now, Johnny, again, be careful."

He always would brief me.

"Now, all knowledgeable people consider this man

"the most brilliant man in the administration.

"As a justice of the Supreme Court...

"The institution is very important, but next,

"for years he is a confidant of the president.

"All America knows about it."

And he was a Jew?

Now, he says, "Johnny, now, he is a Jew.

"So, be sure he will be interested in your report."

All right, so, I wait again, carefully.

On the appointed hour...

As a matter of fact, I even remember it was between breakfast and lunch.

Before lunch, in the morning hours.

On time.

I was sitting in the living room, salon.

Ambassador comes from the first floor

with Justice Frankfurter.

Justice Frankfurter...

A little man.

He did emanate... some brilliance.

Very alive, his eyes.

Unimpressive physically.

A little man, Jewish-looking.

Very friendly. Friendly smile.

Towards me, all the time friendly.

Several times, he called me "young man"

during our conversation.

Well, I introduce myself. We sit down.

He in front of me. Ciechanowski on my left.

Justice Frankfurter starts, "Mr Karski...

"I have been invited by my very good friend,

"your ambassador,

"to come here to see you.

"I was also advised

"that I should see you.

"Apparently, you have some information

"which I should know.

"What do you have to say?"

My answer:

"Sir...

"I don't know what you are interested in.

"Could you ask me some questions?

"It will be easier on me."

Frankfurter:

"Young man...

"Do you know that I am a Jew?"

"Yes, sir. Mr Ambassador told me about this."

"Well, tell me about the Jews.

"We have here many reports.

"What happens to the Jews in your country?"

Now I become a machine again.

I give my stuff.

The man sits.

I remember, he looked like smaller and smaller.

Somehow this, like curving.

Looking at the floor.

But he listens. He doesn't interrupt me.

I report, as you know from this film.

Usually it lasted 15, 20 minutes.

I tell him: Jewish leaders, ghetto, Belzec.

Well, those 15, 20 minutes passed, and I stopped.

Now, Justice Frankfurter, he sits,

looks at me still at this moment,

and tells me the following:

"Young man...

"as I mentioned, I have been informed about your activities.

"I was told that you came out of hell.

"And I was told that you are going back to hell.

"I have admiration for people like you."

And now...

"Young man...

"I am no longer young.

"I am a judge of men.

"Men like me

"with a man like you

"must be totally honest.

"And I am telling you,

"I do not believe you!"

Ciechanowski breaks in, "Felix! What are you talking about?

"Well, you know about him. He comes... he saw the president.

"He was checked, rechecked. Ten times, in England, here.

"Felix, what...? He's not lying!"

Frankfurter is walking like this.

"Mr Ambassador..." Formal.

"I did not say that he is lying.

"I said that I don't believe him.

"These are different things."

And: "My mind...

"my heart...

"they are made in such a way...

"that I cannot accept it. No! No! No!"

I murmured something, that... "It is a shock to me."

He began amenities.

Eventually, he did ask me a few friendly questions.

Did he tell you, "I know the human soul"?

Yes. "I am a judge of men.

"I know humanity. I know men.

"Impossible. No! No!"

Total negation.

Now, now...

Was he sincere?

That's my question. What is the meaning of...?

Was it an act? A theatrical act?

What could I do?

How do you argue with Justice Frankfurter?

Ciechanowski tells me he's a powerful man.

As a matter of fact...

But he was even a key figure in the Jewish community.

- He was the centre of power there too. - He asked me...

"Mr Karski, do you know who I am?"

So then I said, "Yes, sir.

"You are associate justice of the Supreme Court."

And then I cracked a little...

"My ambassador also told me that you are a very important man."

I remember this, Justice Frankfurter looks at Ciechanowski...

Then he introduces himself.

And what is the meaning of this now, according to you?

"I don't believe you." What didn't he believe?

I think he believed me, of course.

I have no doubt he did his best, whatever he could have done.

He took it for granted I was going back to Poland.

Probably he wanted to show me...

...yes, that the world is unprepared.

This is an unprecedented problem. This is a horrible problem.

Generally speaking, when the Jews in Warsaw said that their problem,

meaning their destruction, couldn't be handled in a purely military manner,

that one had to find something else,

did these people, these specific people, these Jews,

did they understand this or not?

They did. I am sure they did...

Or was their ideology the same: rescue through victory?

No, no, no. They did understand this problem.

They sympathised with the Polish Jews.

Something has to be done in this respect.

They will do their best, but this would end...

Did you have the feeling that they understood the fantastic emergency

that every day was too late?

Because this is what you were in charge of conveying.

I think they did not.

- You think they did not? - They did not.

It was a serious problem, a tragic problem.

"We are doing our best.

"So much can be done.

"The rest cannot be done.

"We are doing whatever we can do for this problem."

Rather, from the Jewish leaders...

Rather, I was getting this kind of reaction.

And then Jewish leaders all, most of them were interested.

"Well, how to do it?" This, every day. Help.

Now, the question could be asked...

And as a matter of fact, at various stages of this film,

this question emerged.

Is there any comparison

between what happened to the European Jews

during the Second World War?

Could it be compared

to any happening in the past history?

Whatever I know about history... totally unique.

It was a problem in itself,

unprecedented historically.

Humanity... One could say healthy humanity,

rational humanity,

which did not see it with their own eyes,

were not actually there,

they had no precedent to compare it.

As you know, I mentioned this...

...35 years passed.

I have been conditioned by the American environment.

Now, naturally, in my mind, I know it was true.

I cannot handle it.

What I saw, in this respect,

Jewish extermination,

is incomprehensible for me.

I cannot handle it.

I can handle perfectly well the Polish problem.

I discuss it in my classes.

Czech, Serb, Russian.

I understand, I comprehend.

I could speak about it calmly, rationally.

History is cruel

to many nations, to many individuals.

I ran away.

I tried to eliminate what I saw as far as the Jews were concerned.

Not only did history not see such an event before,

nothing happened since then which could be compared.

Of course, again, history is cruel.

Nations fight, individuals hate,

political considerations enter the picture.

Conquest, torture, prison,

collective responsibility, wars,

victorious wars,

defeat in the wars.

We see it now.

We look around the world. We have it.

I don't know how to put this question,

because it's difficult to formulate.

What is the meaning of Belzec, of Treblinka,

seen from Washington or from New York?

At that time?

Or from London?

For yourself, for instance,

when you were reporting, reporting, reporting every day,

like a machine as you said,

did you remember Warsaw when you were here in Washington?

Yes.

Of course, not in the way I remember it now, as I mentioned.

Now I am much weaker emotionally,

so I break down, I avoid it.

At that time, yes, I was a machine.

I was reporting.

But how do you judge the people...

...who, how you said, didn't grasp the real meaning of what it was?

Is it possible to grasp the destruction of the Jews

when one lives in Washington, completely another world?

- At that time? - Yes.

Probably not.

Probably not.

It might have been possible,

if every one of those individuals actually was there.

Because now, all of us, we are intelligent people.

It was unprecedented.

These kind of things really never happened.

For a normal human being,

educated,

having political responsibility, a leader...

All of us, we know,

our brain, our concepts,

can operate only within certain limits.

Mainly what the environment puts...

books, knowledge, information,

puts into our brains.

At a certain point...

...probably our brains are not able to grasp certain things.