Original subtitles

[dramatic music]

♪ ♪

JOE: Good morning.

This is the video recorded deposition

of Dr. Marlon Osbourne.

DEPOSITION OFFICER: Dr. Osbourne,

will you please raise your right hand?

Do you swear or affirm that the testimony

you are about to give

will be the truth, the whole truth,

and nothing but the truth?

I do.

JOE: Good morning, Dr. Osbourne.

My name is Joe Podraza, and I represent

the estate of Ellen Greenberg.

You reached a conclusion as to what the manner of death was.

Is that correct?

That is correct.

JOE: And you reached the conclusion of a homicide.

Is that correct?

At that time, yes, that's correct.

JOE: And we know that later,

that would be revised to suicide.

Correct?

It was amended to suicide, yes.

JOE: All right.

If you were told there was a question

as to whether the fiancé was accompanied by someone,

whether the fiancé broke through the door,

whether the lock was engaged when the wounds were

administered to Ellen, that those were in question

and not decided, would you have changed

your initial determination of homicide

to suicide while those questions remained open?

♪ ♪

Brett, as a baby, you're so little.

Here's Rachel and Ellen.

Aww. I love that picture.

[pensive music]

DEBBIE: Think of all that's happened in our lives

since 14 years ago.

You're all just little kids.

Now you're all grown adults.

BRETT: You never expect to be in the scenario

where you have a family member who is murdered

and, you know, nobody believes you.

Yeah, and 14 years later, it's still unsolved.

Yeah, it's kind of become, like, a mission

or a goal of ours trying to determine

what actually happened to Ellen.

DEBBIE: We miss her.

And we will find justice for Ellen.

Yeah.

♪ ♪

BRETT: The Philadelphia Inquirer article

came out about Ellen in 2019.

It started to gather significant internet traction.

And we saw that immediately.

If you searched Ellen's name,

people were chattering about it.

I think that's when I first started

looking at this like, hey, someone has

to have eyes on the internet.

Perhaps there will be a tip, someone who could help us.

And now it is on all corners of the internet.

PERSON 1: [speaking native language]

765,000 views.

This one's in German.

PERSON 2: [speaking German]

BRETT: There's podcasts and videos and tweets

and posts where people have engaged in these

long-form discussions and try and generate

new ideas of perhaps what... what could have happened.

There's this community of people who really care

about what happened with Ellen.

♪ ♪

JOEL: Like everybody else's curiosity, we googled it.

And then that's when we were like, oh, goodness.

[chuckles] This is gonna be interesting.

I worked with Sam Goldberg at NBC

and now currently at LIV Golf for many years.

He's a really nice guy.

And he's like, hey, bro, what's happening?

How's your day?

Just nonchalant, just doing his job.

After the information came out from the Enquirer,

that's when everybody started talking about it.

Is this really true?

Did this happen?

And it made it awkward for a lot of people.

But we don't know anything.

It's... you know, he's not been charged with anything.

But there are people that are scared to work around him.

They're very nervous.

♪ ♪

D'MICHELLE: So here's the timeline,

beginning January 26, 2011.

One of the things that everyone,

including the investigators, took as a fact

is that Ellen must have died between 4:50 PM and 5:27 PM.

She could have killed herself

or someone could have killed her well before 4:50.

This is why the police and everybody else

locks in on this time frame, right?

SARAH: Is because he left. -They believe Sam.

Sam says, when I left at 4:50...

SARAH: She was fine. -... she's alive.

SARAH: We know that it can't have

happened before this 1:42 phone call

because Ellen is not home.

She's getting gas at 1:26.

GUY: I think it's significant that that day,

Ellen is choosing to fill her gas tank up.

D'MICHELLE: Yes.

But, you know, a lot of people do that when a storm's...

I mean, I do.

If a storm's coming, I fill mine up.

GUY: But I'm saying, if she's planning this evening when Sam

goes to the gym, I'm going to take my life,

or at least considering it... D'MICHELLE: True.

THOMAS: Yeah. -... why fill your gas tank?

D'MICHELLE: Very true. SARAH: Right.

Although most suicides, a decision is made

with little time between the decision and the act.

♪ ♪

[tense music]

♪ ♪

Clearly, nobody lives in the apartment now.

And all of the items here are replicated

as close as humanly possible to the actual crime scene photos.

You do want the re-creation to be as close as possible

because there's all these things that start to click

and make sense when you're in the space.

The language in the report was all this stuff about,

there's no sign of a struggle.

A struggle doesn't have to be tipped-over coffee tables and...

and drawers ripped out.

The way the knife block is on its side

in an otherwise orderly kitchen...

D'MICHELLE: And the knives are scattered.

SARAH:... the knives are scattered,

the death happens in an extremely small area.

So the struggle is going to be confined as well.

D'MICHELLE: And in the autopsy report,

there is a dissection of the strap muscles

of the neck, which is, in my opinion, showing injury.

And the paragraph is textbook.

It's template of a pristine neck.

♪ ♪

Looking at the autopsy photos,

it did look like there was hemorrhage

in the strap muscles of the neck,

like there was an injury there.

And what that means is usually manual strangulation.

And my findings were aligned with another forensic

pathologist who was commissioned by the Greenbergs

to review this case.

Just because someone doesn't have big, bruising thumbprints

or fingerprints on their neck does not mean

that they were not strangled.

Oftentimes, they don't show up.

SARAH: The biggest thing that people use

to explain it as a suicide is,

it's a locked door mystery, right?

The classic locked door mystery,

that nobody else could have been in here

with her because of this.

MELISSA: I personally have done that.

I've locked myself out.

I shut the door hard, and the latch came

and went right over top of it.

And then you're... you're locked out.

So it's possible to do that.

Does it happen often? No.

But it can.

SARAH: The last known activity on Ellen's computer is 4:46.

GUY: Sure.

Then, obviously, at 4:50 PM, which we know from CCTV,

he goes to the gym.

And then just 37 minutes later,

he's at the elevator bay to go upstairs.

SARAH: Yeah.

So that's right around 5:30.

And now we see this avalanche

of text messages and phone calls.

[line ringing]

In addition to the calls made to Ellen,

he sends the following text messages.

5:32, "Hello," with a bunch of exclamation points.

Five seconds later, "Open the door."

Three minutes later, "What are you doing,"

question mark, exclamation point,

question mark, exclamation point.

And then we have about a 13-minute window.

And he just says, "U Better have an excuse."

Three minutes later, "What the fuck,"

bunch of exclamation points.

Six minutes later, A, bunch of Hs,

bunch of exclamation points.

Eight minutes after that, "U have no idea."

Let's look at Sam's statements.

Sam told investigators he'd been trying

to get into the apartment for nearly an hour.

Right, here's what he thought Ellen was doing for the hour,

which is why she didn't hear.

It was either she was... this is his words.

She was showering, she was doing her hair,

or she was doing work with her headphones on.

SARAH: Right, and we know for a fact

because we watch him on the tapes.

And we see him in the hall, and we see him

doing this other stuff.

And we see him come up to the elevator

right around 6:28.

And then 6:30, we see 911.

D'MICHELLE: 10 feet.

SARAH: It feels really obvious to us.

But could he or could he not have noticed a knife blade

jutting out of her chest?

GUY: One of the first things, even from a distance,

even from a photo, the first thing

at least my eyes went to was the knife.

Knife.

Behavioral analysis is about recognizing

stimuli and response.

What stimuli would have elicited this response?

20 stab wounds, such a violent stabbing death.

So if she didn't die by suicide,

who, whether it's somebody she knows or not,

was in a position to have that reaction,

to react so strongly,

so quickly, and so aggressively?

[solemn music]

♪ ♪

SANDEE: In the beginning, we sought marriage counseling.

We've had many, many, many ups and downs.

We still love each other.

But there are times where it's... it's a struggle.

-Can I have cream cheese? -Mm-hmm.

OK.

Very good.

We felt Ellen was in a situation

where they'd have a lovely marriage

after a beautiful wedding.

And they would live together forever,

and we'd have grandchildren.

We've been together 45 years-plus... with her.

SANDEE: It's always in the back of my mind,

I will never be a grandmother.

That's kind of a tough pill to swallow.

But I don't dwell on it.

I just try to make the best of every day.

And when I get into bed at night,

I know I did everything I could that day to, you know,

hold my head up and be who I am.

JOSH: Every day, I think about Ellen.

Our life is trying to get justice for Ellen

and move forward every day.

SANDEE: I'm very, very proud of Josh and I and our efforts

to find out what really happened

to Ellen Rae Greenberg.

There's no gray area here.

There's no undecided in my mind.

The medical examiner, with the stroke of a pen,

could change the cause and manner of death

back to homicide.

What's holding them back?

[suspenseful music]

JOE: When we came on board in 2019,

despite the passage of eight years,

my assessment of the matter was,

from a legal standpoint, it had no progress.

Remember, this is a suicide. It's not a crime.

Nobody investigates. Nobody prosecutes.

So the view that we had legally was, that has to change.

We had pretty high hurdles to get over.

It is a very high standard to challenge

the discretionary decision by the medical examiner's office.

There was a serious legal barrier we had to deal with.

So we therefore said, let's ask the medical examiner's office

to change voluntarily the manner of death

from suicide to homicide.

And we gave, I think, 14 days.

Then we decided, enough.

Now we can go to court.

And that set off a lot of media attention.

10 years ago, after the death of their daughter in Manayunk,

a Pennsylvania couple continues to fight for justice.

Authorities said it was suicide.

But her family continues to believe otherwise.

Today her family is pleading with investigators

to reopen the case, saying new evidence

suggests it's a homicide.

JOE: The lawsuit allowed us to finally get access

to the surveillance tape of the complex

where Sam and Ellen resided.

This facility had between 12 to 20 cameras.

So we had asked for that.

And the first response was, it doesn't exist.

Well, hard to believe that something as fundamental

as surveillance tape was missed by the police.

We therefore said, please go back and check.

We get a response back from the solicitor's office.

No, the police have confirmed there is

no surveillance footage at all that they

have in their possession.

So we said, we're gonna ask a court to get involved

in this, or you're gonna give us

an affidavit from somebody in the police department

going on record saying that there was no seizure

of the surveillance tape and it doesn't exist.

We didn't get an affidavit because nobody was

going on record saying that.

But we did get the solicitor's office to come back and say,

oh, that surveillance tape!

[tense music]

♪ ♪

Now, that videotape is critical

because the medical examiner's investigation report

indicated that Sam Goldberg, the fiancé,

had been escorted and was witnessed

breaking into the apartment, where it was claimed

he then found Ellen.

And that witness was a security guard.

And I will not forget this.

We watched, and we realized that the footage discredited

that claim because Mr. Hanton did not go up with the fiancé.

There was a report that said I escorted Sam to the unit.

When I learned that, I was really upset.

[somber music]

I want to be clear that I'm not accusing anybody.

But then again, you're not gonna lie on me, either.

I'm not allowed to leave the post

other than for law enforcement.

It's real simple.

[dramatic music]

♪ ♪

JOE: In Sam's two interviews with investigators,

he never expressly states that anyone

was with him when he broke in.

However, while the police report

doesn't mention that anyone was with Sam,

the medical examiner's report does.

And that's the report that Dr. Osbourne used to determine

Ellen's manner of death,

a report that included this inaccurate information.

So now one of the critical pieces of evidence

for why this was changed to a suicide from a homicide

is completely false.

And we realize that something is very, very wrong here

because, hey, we weren't the first people

to look at this video.

It was looked at by the police.

How did they miss

the whereabouts of the security officer

that disproves a huge part of the claim

that she committed suicide?

So once we had that videotape, we decided,

it's time to start talking to people under oath.

And we moved to what we call depositions.

ANNIE: The depositions were the first time

that anybody was able to hear what the main players

in the investigation actually thought

and what actually happened.

DEPOSITION OFFICERS: Raise your right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear or affirm

that the testimony you're about to give today

is the truth, the whole truth,

and nothing but the truth,

so help you God? ALL: I do.

DEPOSITION OFFICER: Doctor, raise your right hand, please.

Do you swear or affirm that the testimony

you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth,

and nothing but the truth? -I do.

DEPOSITION OFFICER: Thank you.

JOE: Good morning, Dr. Gulino.

Good morning, Mr. Podraza.

JOE: And thank you, sir, for taking the time.

I understand that your office...

When we went into the depositions of the three

members from the medical examiner's office,

we wanted to know, how did this come about,

this determination of suicide?

What transpired?

[tense music]

During the depositions, we had been told

there may have been a meeting.

The first time I was aware of the case

was when I was asked to participate in a meeting

that included the members

of the Philadelphia Police Department,

Ann Ponterio of the district attorney's office,

and Dr. Osbourne, at which the police

wanted to present new investigative information

to Dr. Osbourne.

♪ ♪

JOE: Based on the information you had at the time

you were going to that meeting,

had you decided to change the manner of death

from a homicide to suicide?

To the best of my knowledge,

I don't know that I made a definitive decision

prior to that meeting to change it.

JOE: At that meeting, information

was shared that convinced Dr. Osbourne

to change the manner of death from homicide to a suicide.

Dr. Osbourne indicated that at a meeting,

it was shared with him that the fiancé had been

witnessed entering the apartment

when he found Ellen Greenberg.

Do you recall that information being shared

at a meeting you attended?

I can't... I can't say that.

I don't know how Dr. Osbourne...

or if he ever became aware of that

or how he became aware of that.

Unfortunately, there's not much

information or transparency about who was at that meeting

or what they said.

JOE: This was an important meeting.

Correct? MARLON: Yes.

JOE: Did you create a record in writing of the meeting?

They said, we took no notes.

And they couldn't remember who said what

or what was really said that then led to a change.

I don't have...

I don't have notes from that meeting, no.

JOE: Why not?

I do not have meeting... notes from that meeting.

JOE: Why not?

I do not have notes from that meeting.

JOE: And my question to you is,

if it's such an important meeting,

why is there no written record?

MARLON: To answer your question,

I personally did not take notes at that meeting.

However, all the information gathered was documented

in other forms elsewhere.

Well, antennas again go up.

So Dr. Osbourne, we asked him, you know,

why'd you say it was a homicide?

MARLON: At the time of autopsy,

I did believe

that I had enough information to make that determination.

JOE: What we wanted to know is,

what did they learn at that meeting

to change it from homicide to suicide?

What is the best of your recollection of what was said

by each of the participants?

The investigative officers reviewed and answered questions

regarding the scene, with nothing disturbed,

nothing out of place,

about the door locked from the inside

and the boyfriend having the, I believe,

front desk person witness him breaking down the door.

JOE: But you hadn't come to a conclusion

at the meeting.

Is that correct?

No, we were exchanging information thus...

to get to the point where I could basically

collect all the evidence that supports homicide

and weigh it against whatever evidence supports suicide

to see how I would... to see which determination

I would make.

We knew we had one ace card.

And that was that the fiancé was not witnessed

breaking through the door by the security guard.

If you were told there was a question

as to whether the fiancé was accompanied by someone,

whether the fiancé broke through the door,

whether the lock was engaged when the wounds

were administered to Ellen, that those were in question

and not decided, would you have changed

your initial determination of homicide

to suicide while those questions remained open?

No, I would not.

I would end up somewhere closer to undetermined

if those things are still in question.

But that was not the case.

Every medical examiner department has maybe 1% or so

of their cases as undetermined.

It leaves the case open.

And we want that so that when new evidence comes in,

it's still open to investigation.

That was not done in this case.

JOE: The last person who we deposed was Dr. Emery,

who joined the medical examiner's office

after Ellen's autopsy many years later.

Good morning.

This is deposition of Dr. Lyndsey Emery,

taken in 2021...

We did not really become aware of Dr. Emery

until the medical examiner's office said

that they asked this neuropathologist

to do her own examination.

SAM: A primary question was whether there was damage

to the spinal cord and whether it could have

affected Ellen's ability

to then stab herself in the chest.

GUY: Dr. Lyndsey Emery is there to determine,

did the knife pierce her spinal cord

where the knife entered into the back of the neck?

STEPHANIE: The original report says that the spinal cord

sheath was hit, which would have possibly

made Ellen numb but would have still allowed her

to continue to stab herself.

JOE: What were your conclusions?

My conclusions, essentially, there are three possibilities.

One is that the sharp force injury entered

into the vertebral column, the cervical vertebra,

and pierced that dura

and just didn't go any farther.

The second possibility,

of which there are two arms to,

are that those injuries happened point-blank

after she had been deceased

so that there would be no reaction to it

or that that disruption I'm seeing in the spinal cord

was a postmortem artifact

introduced during the autopsy.

She determined that one of the cuts in the spinal cord

could have been the result of three possibilities.

One of those possibilities was that a stab wound

was a postmortem wound and there was no hemorrhaging,

which essentially means that Ellen would have had

to stab herself after she was dead.

JOE: OK. Now...

Right then and there, you hear Joe Podraza

in the deposition, shocked.

JOE:... I want you to pretend you're a layperson.

Do I just understand what you just said there,

is that Ellen suffered wounds after she died?

I'm saying either the wounds didn't...

That's one possibility, yes.

STEPHANIE: I know Podraza says that she says that they're

definitely postmortem.

She doesn't definitely say that.

She says they could be, and she gives multiple explanations.

One, there wasn't enough time between

when the wound was inflicted and when Ellen

died to cause a response.

Two, the wound didn't disrupt the tissue enough.

Or three, Ellen was already dead

when the wound was inflicted.

ANNIE: That part of the deposition

is what really grabbed people's attention.

And the media and the public started asking more questions.

JOE: It was at that point that we began to say,

this was not just a mistake or a difference of opinion.

Look, we want a transparent investigation.

Let's finally know what happened to Ellen.

[dramatic music]

JOSH: I'm speaking to the world.

I'm speaking to the world.

Ellen did not commit suicide.

Anybody who wants to read that medical examiner's report

or anything, go ahead.

She didn't commit suicide.

Read the verification.

JOE: A conspiracy is when one or more individuals

come together and participate

in doing something unlawful.

As far as we were concerned, the city of Philadelphia

was hiding a homicide.

Now, you have to understand, these are serious allegations

against public officials.

And that made headlines.

Look, we didn't take this lightly.

And in fact, that's what led to our second lawsuit,

which was a conspiracy lawsuit.

And the media kept it front and center.

It kept it fresh.

Well, some serious accusations made

inside a Philadelphia courtroom

about the alleged mishandling of the death investigation

of a woman who died in 2011.

REPORTER: Nearly 14 years after Ellen Greenberg

was found dead by her fiancé in their Manayunk apartment,

her parents appeared in a Philadelphia courtroom.

In December, a city judge hears arguments

in the second lawsuit about whether it should proceed

against defendants and tells the Greenbergs

they have a fighting chance.

Today a judge in a civil suit

ruled that there is enough evidence to go to trial.

Jury selection begins Monday at 9:00 AM.

We also reached out to the city and the police department.

They said they could not comment on pending litigation.

The conspiracy case was scheduled for trial

to begin on February 3rd.

And at that time, Dr. Osbourne had his own counsel.

So we reached out to that lawyer and said,

listen, we would be willing to settle with Dr. Osbourne

if he comes clean, which is to say that this

should not be a suicide.

And the Saturday before the jury selection,

counsel for Dr. Osbourne calls and says,

we have a deal.

And that set off a firestorm of media.

REPORTER 1: The medical examiner who performed

Ellen Greenberg's autopsy says he no longer thinks her death

should be listed as a suicide.

REPORTER 2: In a verification statement filed in the courts

this weekend, Dr. Osbourne stated,

"Since issuing the amended death certificate,

I have become aware of additional information."

And, "It is my professional opinion"

"Ellen's manner of death should be designated

as something other than suicide."

This is significant because, once again,

the medical examiner who conducted Ellen's autopsy

is changing his determination.

JOE: With Dr. Osbourne's sworn statement saying this

shouldn't be a suicide in our back pocket,

we proceeded then to go to court on that Monday the 3rd.

[solemn music]

♪ ♪

SANDEE: Today is very, very important.

We've waited 14 years for this day to come,

to walk into a courthouse

in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

The story will speak for itself,

and it'll play out in the public eye.

JOSH: I'm grateful.

I'm grateful I'm still here to do this.

I was concerned about it as we matured.

But I'm grateful this... I'm gonna see

at least the start of it and probably the finish of it.

And that's really important.

SANDEE: My goal is to stay healthy

and stay focused and pave the way for justice for Ellen.

[suspenseful music]

ANNIE: February 3rd changed everything.

Even before jury selection gets going,

suddenly, there was a bombshell in court,

and you got widespread media attention.

Jury selection was set to begin this morning

in her parents' civil lawsuit against the city.

Before jury selection could get underway,

though, the family and Philadelphia officials

reached an agreement to reopen the investigation.

BRIAN: This is huge for the Greenbergs,

who have been fighting to clear their daughter's name

for more than a decade.

Suddenly, you had the city now settling both cases

and agreeing to reopen the investigation.

In a statement released by the city today,

they said that the settlement includes an independent review

of the autopsy file.

REPORTER: What tipped the scales this morning, Joe?

What happened behind closed doors?

Really, Dr. Osbourne's verification.

That was the thing we've been waiting for now

for over five years.

So the litigation as to the Greenbergs and the city

has been resolved, and we proceed forward

in getting justice for Ellen.

[solemn music]

SANDEE: I'm all out of tears.

I wish I could cry.

I used to cry about, you know, everything.

That's true. But we won.

We did it.

I don't think it's set in completely.

JOE: At the time that we were discussing settlement,

I felt that what was being offered

was more than fair,

that there'll be a reconsideration

by the medical examiner's office

on an expeditious basis.

But when you don't have the actual verdict,

that adrenaline that comes from having

12 or more people say, you're right,

you then tend to reflect.

And it's just natural.

♪ ♪

JOSH: As we sit here now, the city has done nothing.

They didn't review the case.

They didn't do anything.

SANDEE: Nothing has really changed.

And if they don't take a look at the autopsy file,

then we will have to probably take them to court

to enforce it.

JOE: Like everything else in the legal process,

it takes time.

My view is, once the papers are signed and exchanged,

no more than 30 days.

If we don't get a determination from the medical examiner's

office in 30 days, one way or the other,

then we'll go back to court so that Sandee and Josh

know it's gonna get done and be done by a certain date.

SANDEE: I can't believe that we've

tried to go conventionally through the system

and it's like we're pedaling backwards.

They've tried every tool in the book to get rid of us.

And we're here to stay.

♪ ♪

STEPHANIE: When every door is shut before you

and every quest for answers is stymied,

sometimes telling your story

is the only way to get to the truth.

♪ ♪

In this case in particular, the Greenbergs

told me they had so many government agencies

let them down and make them feel like they

were imagining things...

the medical examiner's office, the police department,

the district attorney's office,

and the attorney general's office,

all the way to Governor Josh Shapiro

back when he was attorney general.

These agencies consistently maintain

their findings of suicide.

Governor Shapiro was asked during a press conference

to comment on the state of Ellen's case.

We received more evidence, more information

during the course of our investigation

that, sadly, didn't show what they wanted it to show

but actually, rather, pointed to more data, more information

that pointed toward a suicide.

A lot of what we do as journalists

is to validate people,

to validate their concerns,

their hopes.

And even as those around them try to close this down,

there are still many unanswered questions

in this case about the cause and circumstances

of Ellen's death, which is still considered a suicide.

SANDEE: Sam's moved on in his life.

He's married.

He has children.

But there is absolutely no contact

or connection with them.

I don't think about him.

And I feel that we have a God that I believe in.

And we have a justice system that isn't exactly perfect,

but that's not for me to reckon with.

THOMAS: The Greenbergs have been through so much.

This roller coaster that they've been on

and the manner in which they've been treated and ignored...

They did everything they possibly could

to stand in our way.

...what do they do?

♪ ♪

SANDEE: Here she is, the star of our show, Ellen.

Who's that guy? Who's that guy?

Da. JOSH: Very good.

SANDEE: Very good. That's Dada.

[gentle music]

JOSH: How can you resist that child?

How can you resist that child, huh?

Look at her. PERSON: She's a little ham.

SANDEE: There's cousin Ellie.

Ellie!

He was talking to Ellen. It was so cute.

For WITF TV, I'm Ellen Greenberg.

♪ ♪

DEBBIE: All these years after Ellen's passing,

when I think about all that Ellen has missed

or just, like, watching everyone grow up

or growing up with them or having a family,

it's just so sad that she hasn't been part of our life

for this long.

ALYSON: Ellen set me and my husband up.

And yeah, she was one of my bridesmaids.

Obviously, she wasn't there for my wedding.

But yeah, my daughter is essentially

here because of Ellen.

♪ ♪

CAITLIN: I think when it hit me most was,

I was going for a walk with my parents

and my husband and my young son at the time,

and I saw Ellen's mom

sitting on a picnic table

with her friends on Ellen's birthday.

And I was with my family that I got to have.

Those are the things that you get sad thinking about,

that loss.

♪ ♪

PHIL: The thing that I understand now

that makes me even sadder,

to know that your daughter died in that manner

and you ain't got no answers,

it is unspeakable.

Sometimes I just understand that justice

still won't be enough.

SANDEE: This is four generations... my mom,

my grandmother, myself, and Ellen.

For the amount of time Ellen was alive

and part of this Earth,

she left a lot of lasting impressions

on so many of us in so many ways.

And your memories can never be taken from you.

What a good girl.

Get ready. Get set. Go. Whee!

JOSH: Ellen.

SANDEE: She's enjoying it.

JOSH: Hello.

♪ ♪

I have excellent memories of Ellen.

But there should be no other parents in this situation

that I'm in or my wife's in.

♪ ♪

SANDEE: Whenever I find coins on the ground,

they're pennies from heaven or coins from heaven.

I have a big bowl with all the coins that I've found,

and it's 90% full.

So I feel like we're getting really close,

and I'm very optimistic.

If I could call Ellen right now

and just have her for a flash,

I would say, Mommy and Daddy love you,

and we're proud of you.

♪ ♪

[somber music]

♪ ♪