Original subtitles

How long have you been aware of the crop circles and how long have you been

occupied by them?

Since the late 1980s and when they first came forward I looked at them and I

just suddenly thought, these are our friends, this is our friends, you know.

so from that moment on I was caught and I just had to follow the track, you

know.

One of the interesting things with the crop formations also is that especially

men we go into this looking for the big answer and What you've got to learn in

this game is there is no big answer and if you need a big answer you've got to

get out of this business really fast because it'll drive you mad and So

it's a process Where we're being revealed answers mainly

through In a way, through negatives. In other words, the answers we're getting

is, it's not this, it's not that. No, that answer isn't correct.

No, you're wrong on that one.

And so we're left with an open space.

And yet, there's a lot there.

And so one of the big psychological changes you have to make is it's

necessary to be willing to drop.

Our addiction to answers, which, of course, if you're educated, Western and

male, this is a big problem. This is a big problem.

And so I love it for that reason. And also that,

to me, is one of the signs that we are actually involved with a very

high source.

We're involved with some beings who really are amazing teachers and

they're taking us through a process which is very important for our

but they're not giving us any answers.

Not directly, not answers that we can say, this is it, that's that.

And I love that, I love that.

But why do you think this is going on at this exact period of time?

Well, I think there's the obvious one, which is our planet is in danger.

And we don't have much time, so that's one of the answers.

Another one is it's addressing Westerners, and particularly the men.

Not only the men, but it really is addressing the men with our rational

questions and our science and our maths and things like that.

And so it's really trying to change... Somehow the phenomenon is really trying

to change our mindset and our psychology.

I think also it's because we are...

now ready to receive new ideas on a much deeper

level than we have ever had before.

And the events of the 20th century have led us to this.

And here we are, it's roughly 100 years since Einstein and relativity theory and

things, which was the last big jump in rational thinking.

And there's also the spiritual awakening that is going on.

and has been going on for the last hundred years, but particularly since

1960s. So it's a combination of all of these things.

And the next question, of course, is why is it mainly happening in Britain?

That's right. And this is an interesting one because I think the short answer on

that is if it were happening in the States, it would become a religion.

The same would be the case in Russia.

If it were happening in Germany, it would be difficult intellectually.

If it were happening in France or Italy, it would be a threat to the church.

And there's something about the Brits which is both rational and slightly

That's our nature.

We are slightly crazy. We're eccentric people.

There's something where that combination of our rationality and our craziness

means that if they can get this past the Brits, they can get it out to the

world.

Of course, there are secondary things, such as the world now speaks English.

So you might as well do it in an English -speaking country if you want maximum

outreach.

Plus, there is a lot of...

Earth energy.

There's a lot of sacred, ancient earth energy in Britain. It's a powerful

country in that regard. And it was so 5 ,000 years ago. It's on a similar level

to somewhere like Israel or North India or somewhere, or parts of Mexico. And so

in that regard, it is a good place to do it.

Even though it is happening also in other countries, Germany, Holland,

The United States and Canada are the main places.

And there have been signs in probably about 15 or 20 other countries.

Italy, for example, there are some happening now there.

And one of the interesting things is that it seems now, in the last few

it's really started happening in places where people are interested.

Yes. And so it's as if...

Whoever's creating these things are responding to the people who are

you know.

But why aren't the media more interested in this?

Well, this has to do with vested interests and

the ownership and the purpose of the media in...

We talk about a free press, but there is a social control element in the media.

I'm sorry to say this, but that is the truth.

And then the media, they like nice, neat answers.

You know, it's either right wing or left wing or it's profit or it's loss.

or it's win or lose, you know. And so they don't like questions which can't

easily be answered.

So the media have only really liked this when we get to the question of hoaxing

and of people making it, Doug and Dave and all that, which is a nice, neat

thing. It wraps it up in a parcel. We can put it away.

That's solved and finished.

Now let's get back to the football, you know. And so really the media don't want

to... to do this one, even people like the BBC don't want to do this one

it's a big question and it concerns the future of civilization

so the reason one of the main reasons why the media are not doing it is for

same reason as why they will not talk about metaphysical issues they will not

talk about things like free energy technologies

they will not talk about some of the very, very basic issues that we need to

bring about in the 21st century, such as just basic justice in the world.

You know, they don't really want to talk about these kinds of things.

And so, you know, I think those are the main reasons.

And there's no money to be made from it, really, either.

One of the wonderful things about the crop formations is that they are designs

and they have absolutely no copyright.

for example, so no one can make money out of them, which is great.

But this blows open the whole thing.

My idea of it is that the evolution of the planet,

the evolution of mankind, is a process that should be

driven by our own forces.

Now, why do you think that someone from...

another realm or another place in space or whatever are trying to interfere with

our evolution I don't think they are trying to interfere

because These things it is entirely our free choice to give attention to

these things If they wanted to interfere they would knock out our computers and

our electronics and things like that to really give us a shock But they're not.

They're doing it in the middle of fields, and it is entirely our choice to

these things attention.

And even when that's the case, they're not giving any really clear answers.

They're saying, form your own conclusions. What are your ideas on

you respond to this?

And so they're not interfering.

They're more like very enlightened grown -ups working with kids.

And when you're teaching a child, it's best not to say, don't do this and do

that. That doesn't really educate a child. It's much better to give a child

educational opportunities where they can become aware of the situation and make

their own choices.

And you've got to set up that experience in a way where the child will...

figure it out well for themselves, and that is a real education.

And so I'd say they're not interfering. They're just giving us some gifts to see

if we will respond.

And one of the disappointing things is that the majority of people are not

responding to this, which is quite shocking in a way.

But in another way, there are enough people who are responding to be able to

get... the information and to record the phenomenon so that when we get to the

stage where humanity is interested in these things at least we've got the

records and we made the measurements and we took the samples and things so

they're not interfering actually they're just trying to give us some clues and

some some prompts to move forward

but anyway

the fact that they are giving us kind of clues and prompts to move forward and

are doing a very Well a kind of an giving us a kind of an education

That means that where they Well, actually they think that we need this

education or else they wouldn't have been doing anything. Yes. Yes. Yes,

true. But but there are Humans who believe that too, so this isn't

The more enlightened people in the world know that we've got a lot to learn.

But does that mean that our evolutionary process is not going fast enough?

I think that's true, yes. But you don't have to be a crop circle enthusiast to

know that.

I think any reasonably sensible person knows that.

And so we've got to move faster.

And also, I think the issues are simpler than we make them at heart.

If we look at the world situation politically, the answers

are actually quite basic and quite simple.

We simply need to become more human towards each other. And if we use our

human...

sensitivities and intelligence, we can solve so many of the world's problems

today that the source of our problems are stupidity and greed and things like

that, you know. Where do you think this is going to take us? What will be the

development of the crop circles over the next years?

Well, this is a big question.

This is a big question.

And I think it is multi -dimensional.

One of the things is that the crop formations are addressing not only our

conscious psyche but our unconscious psyche as well.

And this is one of the big dynamics of our time because our programmed,

conditioned, conscious minds, educated minds, we have a particular world view.

But there's something in our hearts and in our basic intelligence which is

saying something different.

And we're caught with conflict, therefore, between two different parts

being. And the crop circles are really catching this particular

dilemma. Because, for example, with the crop formations, we can't

explain them.

mentally but if you go inside one of these things if you've got any

at all you just know god there's something about this which is just

know but it's rather parallel to what you might experience when you have a

friend who dies when when they die You just get a feeling there's something

more going on than this. You can feel the angels, if you see it that way, or

with people who are getting born as well.

So there's something much, much deeper which is being addressed here.

And I think one of the key things here is that the core solution to our world's

issues does come from this deeper place.

It comes from a point of forgiveness and a point of basic intelligence where we

realise all humans are essentially equal and nature is

in difficulty and things like this, you know.

We're currently in...

In Britain, for example, we're currently working with the question of war, and a

majority of people have decided that war is no longer a solution to most kinds

of situations. In a military country like Britain, this is amazing.

This is amazing, you know.

And similarly, you know, you, the Vikings were big warriors a thousand

ago, and look at you now, you know.

Norwegians will not be a cause of war.

So something has been learned.

And that was not necessarily a rational process.

It was somewhere down here which said, enough is enough.

There's something different going on here.

Let's get on with life.

So what's it leading towards?

I think there's that basic internal thing. But there are other things which

very, very specific as well to do with the laws of nature and our understanding

of biology and physics.

and things like this an example our rational mind will tend to think that

formations are made by a kind of a stamping from above i don't think that's

in a way i think they are sucked down from below by gravity

and by and somehow the circle makers have found a way of

of

programming gravitational force very very precisely to cause

stalks of wheat to fall down in very exact ways because the way these things

laid, it's like they went over it with a comb and every single stalk is in

place. You know, if you've seen one of those, it's amazing, artistically

amazing. And a human couldn't do that.

They just couldn't do it. Even if they were paid half a million pounds, you

know, they couldn't do it.

And so there's that.

There's also mathematics where

Through the geometry and measurements and the proportions of the formations,

there are mathematical theorems and formulae and problems which have been

resolved here, which we have not yet resolved.

And you'll hear people like Michael Glickman, for example, talking about

squaring the circle and pi and the golden mean and all these kinds of

geometrical... issues and there are new things to do with fractals and

the relationships between different mathematical constants

and things which have been demonstrated in the crop formation. So they're

obviously advancing our higher knowledge quite specifically in terms of

mathematics.

And so there are other things too, for example, to do with archaeology and

understanding the nature and the location of ancient sites and why

the ancient people spent so much time building these things when they

could have been enjoying themselves.

Because many of the principles which are demonstrated in ancient sites, stone

circles and all sorts of things, are also demonstrated in the crop

And so it's as if they're saying, look at the ancient sites, there's something

important about these, and that was you humans.

You know, that was you humans doing that. You used to know something which

don't know now.

So what is it? Look at this one.

So they're giving us quite specific and precise knowledge.

There's also stuff about the nuclear radiation, the subatomic particles that

present in crop formations, of which we can only manufacture some of

them. Others we can do it, but it costs too much. With others we have identified

them theoretically, but we can't actually create them.

And then there are others which we've just discovered, which we didn't know

there, what they call short -lived radionuclides. And so we're being taught

something about nuclear physics.

And then there's biology as well, about the way in which the stalks get bent,

not broken.

And it has something to do with microwaving, or what we would call

We don't know.

But there's some way in which these things are cooked.

to cause them to just bend like that in a very remarkable way, all at the same

height and all this kind of thing.

And, of course, one of the beautiful things is that someone comes up with a

theory and they say, oh, well, it must have something to do with this or that.

And it's got something to do with being close to the ground. And so the next

year they come along and they bend it that high off the ground.

So there's no way it has, you know, so they're answering our theories and

they're saying, no, it's not that.

Good idea, but it's not that.

And so we're getting some quite precise stuff, much of which we don't understand

yet, but we have some data.

And that's important because we... I had a big intuitive

revelation about seven or eight years ago, and I was kind of trying to figure

out how and when are we going to understand these things, because we

to be making progress.

And the answer which just came through was that we will understand these things

when we have changed in such a way that we understand them.

You know, it will become simple.

all of a sudden and it's a bit like growing up you know like when you're 12

years of age it's very difficult to understand how credit cards work but

basically once you've been in debt and once you've studied a little bit of

economics you understand how credit cards work but it often takes you until

you're in your 20s you know and so it's it's a bit like growing up really uh you

know there's something where we will become ready to

to understand these things at some stage but until then it's a big question it

seems to me that really these things are pulled down from below because

gravity people for example have looked for ufos and they think oh well it must

be ufos that come down and they somehow kind of push it down from above no it's

There have been signs of UFOs, but it's not that.

There's something to do with gravity fields and the ability of the circle

to program gravity fields in a very, very specific and precise way so that

they can pull down the stalks.

Boink. in a very, very precise way, and they can lay it in a very exact,

artistic way.

Some of these things, for example, are laid in ways where, when you photograph

them from above, the light shines on the stalks in different ways, and it

creates different effects, which is just amazing art, amazing art.

And so I think that they've got...

This has something to do with future science as well.

It's got something to do with the fact that light, gravity, electromagnetism

thought are all connected to each other. They are all part of the same spectrum

of energy. And the Soviet scientists were beginning to get into this.

Okay. During the time of the Soviet Union. It's all over now, of course, but

during the time of the Soviet Union.

And I think this is one of our big technological breakthroughs for the

At the moment, for example, they're trying to work with computers and

putting implants in people's brains and all this kind of thing to see if they

can have a direct relationship between the mind and computers.

We don't need that.

We just need to train our thought in some way so that the thought signals can

picked up technologically and so that our technologies are also working with

these subtle energies in ways which can have an engineering effect.

And I think the crop circles are something of a demonstration of that,

But I have to ask you this question. Who are the circle makers?

Yeah, well, this is a good one. This is a good one.

My answer is I don't know.

I don't know. And it's nevertheless

possible to identify that they do have certain qualities to them.

And so we don't know if it's God.

The beings from Arcturus, ancient beings from ancient times, someone underneath

the earth, you know, we don't know anything about that. But what we do know

they are exceptionally intelligent.

They're very, very good teachers. They really have got education well worked

out. They have a lot of understanding of humans because, frankly, if...

If they were like humans, they'd have walked away from us a long time ago

because we didn't get the message.

They're very, very patient.

They can respond to us. They can talk directly to us.

There's an example from Busty Taylor.

in the early 1990s, and they'd been crop circling, and he's a pilot, and they

were flying over a formation, and he just speculatively said to his friend,

you know, I think the next one's going to be a Celtic cross. It's going to be

five formations in a cross formation.

They flew over the same place the next day, and there it was.

There it was. So these guys can understand us, and they answer back, and

give us things.

in dialogue with us.

And so there's that. They are also healers because people

do... There are some people who go through quite profound healing

They have a spiritual component because people do have spiritual

awakenings. And so we can identify their

characteristics even though we don't know who they are.

But nowadays, people have asked, for example, are they ETs?

And I think generally the answer is no.

But nowadays people are calling them interdimensional intelligences, which I

think is probably the most accurate term we can give at the moment.

But that's only because our concepts are not good enough for anything better.

But what about these balls of light that people seem to see?

Yes, well, the thing is that this borders into parapsychology and

there have been many paranormal phenomena connected

with the crop formation. It's not just balls of light, it's auditory effects,

it's a funny sound effect.

Cameras breaking down.

It's risky to take electronic equipment into a crop formation.

And then there have been UFO sightings.

Funny kind of effects in the light and things like that. The balls of

light themselves, there have been several different kinds of them.

I mean, I work partially as a psychic, and I decided I'm going to try and get

inside one of these things.

And I had seen a ball of light which was a bit like a football, and it was kind

of orange, a bit like a dull sun.

And so I visualised this, and I had to fight quite hard to get inside it. But I

got inside it, and the fascinating thing was that when I went inside it, it was

enormous.

It was like a vast hole.

And there was all sorts of activity in there. So it made me get a feeling that

these are kind of ways in which a superior

consciousness can come into the earth plane and take a look.

So in a way it's a bit like an American intelligence drone that flies over the

Taliban and collects intelligence.

It's not actually an aeroplane with a human in it, and I'm not sure if it's

a being, but it's a bit like a remote camera.

but on a much more dimensional level. That's the furthest I can get on these

things, really. But there was a piece of film from, I think it was about 1996,

that someone took, and it lasted about five or six seconds, and it was a young

man who had been on a hill, and he was just panning around with a video camera,

and suddenly this crop formation is happening down there, and so he filmed

and he filmed the formation of it, and it took about three seconds for this

thing to...

just come it just went you know like that and there were these little lights

that were flying around it too and spinning off and it didn't seem as if

were building that it didn't seem that they were making the formation but it

seemed as if they were observing it in some way and watching it and i think the

thing here is that from my own understanding on an esoteric level

Think about an angel for example and an angel can't see physical matter.

It can't see Me the physical form but it can see me the energy form and

it will read my energies off and It won't it won't hear my thoughts and my

words, but it will hear and read the basic Message behind those thoughts

and the basic feeling behind those thoughts

And so there's a problem there. If you're working in physical Earth space,

there's a problem because you can get the essence of the matter, but you won't

actually get the physics of it. And so if you were an angel and you were

designing these things, then what you'd need to do is you'd need to send down a

probe to get some photographs, you know, just like the Americans will send in a

drone, you know. And so...

I think the balls of light probably have something to do with that, although

that might not be the only thing.

They've got something to do with energy, too, because this relates to natural

phenomena. You get phenomena like this in nature, things like St Elmo's fire,

and you get funny little... Well, you get balls of light in nature without

formations as well. So I don't know how much this is to do with the...

the deeper laws of nature, which we don't tend to recognize, and how much it

to do with intelligent beings doing things.

And it might be a mixture of the two, but I think things like the balls of

are something like that, really.

But they behave intelligently again. They respond to people's thoughts, and

play games with you. For example, one of them was that there was a piece of film

made by a Dutch chap, and there was this...

light thing coming towards him.

And the thing was that as it came closer to him, it got smaller.

Yeah. Right? And so it was saying, you can't even trust your sense of three

-dimensional perspective.

You know, we're trying to show you something more than this. Yes.

You know?

And so it's beautiful. It's beautiful, this kind of stuff, even though we don't

understand it. But we don't understand love.

no and we don't understand childbirth so this isn't so abnormal really

you know this is just another another big mystery but it's not the first one

it's um i mean this tree is probably just as big a mystery as a crop circle

i mean if you look at it as a yes a piece of creation yes from the creator

But the only thing is that the crop circles are quite new to us. This tree

just a normal tree, you know.

Yes, it is. But you see, you look at this tree and that's the tree trunk

and there are the leaves and branches.

But in another way, in terms of energy, we are actually inside that tree now.

We're inside it, you know.

And, of course, the rational mind will think, well, stupid fool, you can't go

inside a tree, you know, unless you get a chainsaw or something.

You know, the energy fields are quite different from the physical forms. So

maybe that's one of the things that we are supposed to learn with these crop

circles, that we are energy beings, not physical beings.

Yes.

And I think this is a very, very clear thing, because one of the things is...

There's a joke to all this. There's a joke. There's a

trick.

And that's this, that...

The most important thing about crop formations is not about the crop and the

pattern. In a way, that's just a trick.

It's like an advertisement in comparison to the real thing.

Because when you go inside a crop formation, you walk inside an energy

which is very strong.

And you don't have to be...

very sensitive to notice that anyone who is capable of loving another human

being can feel that energy and they will feel different when they come out

and you one of the feelings you can get is it's almost as if you have been

slightly fried as if the cells in your body have been slightly irradiated

with uh some sort of radiation but you do feel different

And so this is primarily an energy field, and they're trying to get us to

walk into that energy field or to interact with it visually and in our

even through a photograph.

They're trying to get us to interact with it because it's that energy field

which is the important thing.

And in the end, the crop itself is just the container.

And this goes back to an old teaching that Lao Tzu gave us 2 ,500 years ago.

he was saying the essence of a cup is its empty innermost.

You know, a cup has no purpose apart from the fact that it contains an empty

space. And it is similar with a room or a car or something like that. The most

important part of a car is actually the empty space.

in it and the most important part of a crop formation is the empty space inside

it and of course in our western way of thinking we don't have we don't

value emptiness we only value form yes and so we've got to be given

that form in order to trick us to get inside that energy field and

take in that energy So it's a bit like having a bath or something like that.

It is thinking yourself in this energy, and that's one of the most special

things about entering crop formations. I've seen people cry when they go in,

people have such profound experiences.

Or if you lie down and...

And you float off for 20 minutes and then you look at your watch and four

have gone past.

You get that kind of thing happening.

And so it's got something to do with getting us to become familiar with

in a way which we otherwise don't do or we're not conscious of, really.

So one conclusion that we can draw for certain is that we're not alone in the

universe.

I think that's true, yes. I think that's true.

Yes, we're not alone in the universe.

And there is something... I mean, again, for me at the beginning, when I first

saw the crop formations, I mean, I had been doing a lot of spiritual work and

psychic work for years before, but my first real impression was, God, that's

friends. You know, it's...

It's them, you know.

Their back, you know, was my feeling. And I didn't know where that came from,

because I don't even really know now who I'm talking about.

But I do know it's our friends.

And there's a deeper element to this as well, and that is that there is...

There's a part of us where we are not separate.

You know, I only met you half an hour ago.

But you're beginning to become my brother. And I don't know you. You don't

me. But when we connect on a certain level of openness, we become brothers

sisters. And so there's something where there's a tremendously fast thing where

we become one in some way.

And so there's something here where we are not alone.

And I don't know whether these are ETs or beings or angels or whatever it is. I

don't know.

And perhaps it doesn't matter.

Perhaps it doesn't matter. This is stuff in the brain, you know. This is about,

is he American or is he Chinese?

Does it matter?

The main thing is, is this person an interesting person? Is he a good person

relate to? That's what matters.

But I mean, if you... If you...

If you look at the universe as a kind of... Well, if you don't look at it as

it is physical matter, but as if it is energy in different types of density.

And that all this matter, all these different energies are actually just

different parts of the creator energy.

the mother energy of it all. And that we are just, like you and me, we are just

different faces of the same original energy.

I mean, if you start thinking that way, then it's very easy to understand that,

I mean, you are my brother. It's not that you're just my brother.

Obviously, you're a part of me as I'm a part of you, as we are a part of

everything.

So, I think that...

That that's why you get this feeling when you see crop circle That's it's

actually just another part of you speaking to you a part of you that you

remember because you you're in this Relative brown realm where the meaning

that you're not going to remember everything Yeah, because if you remember

everything you don't get the experiences that you're here for yeah But when you

see this it may be somewhere where in your subconscious reminds you of where

you're coming from or something Yes, this is interesting because

One of the fantastic things is that with a few exceptions, when people first see

the crop formations, there's something in them that recognises these things.

It's not new.

There's something we remember with it. But the fascinating thing is that with a

few exceptions, all of these designs are new. They're not exactly the same as...

symbols and art forms that we have had in all the human cultures. And people

have done a lot of research on this to try and find symbols which are exactly

the same. And there have been a few, but not very many.

Most of these symbols are new symbols, and yet there's this feeling of

recognition and of... I remember that.

in some way and so yes this is connecting with a source of knowledge

deeper down than our conscious knowledge or even our culturally conditioned

historic knowledge yes and so there's there is something yes about memory it's

And this is also where past and future melt into one as well, you know, because

it's difficult to tell, is this the past talking to us or is this the future?

And the answer is both.

And so it's a tricky... It's intellectually tricky to deal with.

But there's another thing too, and that is that once we've established that we

are one...

The next question is, well, what are we going to do about that?

And how do we go forward from there? And that's where we get into the details

again, and that's where we have to identify our differences.

Your language is Norwegian, my language is English.

And we can communicate with one another, but we have different backgrounds and

different ways of seeing things.

And so while we can accept that we are one in essence,

We are also different, and so we've got to work with those differences.

I do a lot of work with Israelis and Palestinians, for example, and here we

people who are genetically and culturally brothers and sisters. They

same family, and yet they're killing one another.

You know, they're really... And similarly, we in Britain...

are so neurotic about our European neighbours, for example.

But these are our people. This is our tribe. They are Europeans.

They are closer to us than Chinese and Africans and people like that.

And so we've... And one of the big questions of the 21st century is

about this business, about how do we deal with the fact that we...

are in one place we are the same or similar but in another way we're very

different men and women for example you know you can love uh as a man you can

love a woman and you can feel at one with her but then a few years later you

know it's and the funny thing is that the people you most love are the people

you can get into the darkest problems with and so so It's not

just about how we are all one. It is also about the precise details which

us different, which are the essence of creation, and it is the essence of our

political problem, our geopolitical problem on planet Earth today.

and it is also the big question of physics and science about the

between things. It is the big question about mathematics that, yes, everything

does resolve itself into zero eventually, but basically you've got 1,

5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and all of the different permutations of numbers that you can

have before you reach infinity.

And so...

It's fascinating.

It's fascinating.

And I don't know exactly where this is leading, but it's certainly leading us

this path.

And in that sense, I think it's brilliant. And they are directly

sophisticated Westerners here.

You don't get crop circles in Africa. Why? Africans don't need them.

you know it's we who need them it's the rational people you know we've we're

caught here and our hearts are all closed down you know and we we walk on

earth but we we don't feel it and we look at each other but we don't know

other and so there's something where we're being taken on a on an in on a

psychological and spiritual initiatory course here

I started now 11 years ago with doing a project for school on crop circles. This

is why I came here first in 1994.

So I came here and I thought if this is all just flattened crop, you have a nice

summer but you don't have to return.

And this is, as I said, my 11th summer now.

So it was the other way around.

And can you tell me a little bit how your interest has developed from just

curious to what you are now?

Well, it always was because it started everything with a school project. I had

always the idea that I want to bring the frontier science and normal science

into a balance.

Because I realized that the crop circles are the only phenomenon, or so -called

paranormal phenomenon, which the existence is not a question of believing

not. And they don't fly away or disappear or whatever, show up only for

people.

their existence. They are here and you cannot deny them.

So I thought this is the perfect subject for a more or less scientific study or

a scientific approach.

And that's what the crop circles are.

And that's what I think is so fascinating about it because it connects

views, let's say, esoteric or spiritual or frontier -scientifical to the very

rational and logic science.

Relative short terms, give me an idea of what kind of research you have been

conducting.

The one part is that I created the ICCA, which is the

International Crop Circle Archive, which has become one of the world's most

extensive databases on the crop circle, with over 5 ,000 records on crop circles

in 50 countries around the world since many centuries.

And what I do basically is documentation here in England and do background

research, speaking to the farmers.

Also a great part of my work is that I do research into the historic part of

phenomenon. I do archive works in libraries and everything to find out if

are evidence for the crop circles being much older than most people think.

And so that's a big part of my work.

Could you explain how this...

how you feel that this has started and how long it has been going on the

thing is that most people think that crop circles are new phenomenon

somewhere in the 1970s in a time where there's a lot of media attention and

people go out making crop circles to get that attention and i and other

researchers as well, discovered that there is evidence for the phenomenon to

much, much older.

And what I've discovered is that there are already legends and tales around the

world, really spinning around the globe, where you don't know when they start.

And the strange thing or the interesting thing is that most of these stories

connect to each other. There are stories and legends by the native Indians in

America,

And they have big similarities to stories we have in Central Europe where

crop circles play an important part in. And so even when we got the first

kind of documents like pamphlets or so, crop circles appear there, you know, the

famous mowing devilwood cut.

And even later we discovered that there is a report published in the Nature

magazine already in 1880 about a field that was flattened completely into

circles. It's more or less a meteorological report, but it clearly

what we would call today crop circles.

Over and over, there's nearly no decade where we don't have crop circle reports.

And there are so many witnesses of early crop circles. Many farmers, if you talk

to them, they remember having played in crop circles when they were kids and

remember stories from their parents and even their grandparents about the crop

circles.

And around the world we can find that the crop circles have played such an

important part in the daily life, even centuries ago, that they have become

of the folklore and part of the culture.

There is evidence that crop circles have appeared in...

in Africa, southern Africa, and that the natives there took them as

communications with their gods.

And the appearance of new circles were the cause for day -long celebrations and

rituals. And they clearly, I'm in contact with a medicine

man, with a very important one, and he clearly says that this is a very old

tradition and they always were seen as something very important.

And one also has to say, because skeptics sometimes say, you know, those

have been wind damage or something that people misinterpreted. But this is not

the case, because especially the people in the country were aware of what is

wind damage or animal damage.

But they differed other things they have discovered in the field. And, of

course, they explained it always from their point of view, from their...

what they were thinking was the state of the art. And I think that the aliens

many people bring in today are the devils of the medieval.

And I don't know what they will call the crop circle for in 100 years. So this

is a very good, even a kind of mirror to social and to human development and

culture. But you mentioned that the crop circles have...

been referred to all over the world, actually, in your home country, Germany.

Could you tell us a little bit about the development there?

Yeah, that's a very similar case. We have very old legends of a king or a

having a good field of crop, and he was so proud of it, so he went every day

there. And then he discovered a crop circle, and he got angry. But when he

closer look, he was not that angry anymore because he realized it is not

flattened and ruined crop. It's something else, and they were referred

fairies that they were dancing there.

and even here then we have a report of the middle of the 19th century of an

eyewitness who reports that there were circles and rings all over around his

area for many many years and people gave those things real names like fairy

rings and they are

Today, fairy rings are also the rings caused by fungus, but we have proved by,

for example, the Grimm brothers in their historical writing that in old days the

term fairy rings was also used for the discolored rings as well as the

flattened circles and rings.

And so it went on.

We have proof from nearly every decade of circles being around.

Of course, we don't know what the early circles did look like because people

were not able to fly them and see them from above.

And then it started as everywhere again in the early 90s when the public

awareness was quite big.

Of course, more and more pictograms and formations were discovered and maybe

were hoaxed by copycats.

But still we have an interesting phenomenon taking place in Germany, and

especially because we have some crop circles made by the same hoaxers who

to have made the good ones, which are completely of a very low quality.

And so we have the same analyses have been done by BLT on German formations,

so we are quite ahead with, for example, England and other countries.

but how do you explain the development of the designs?

I don't know if there is really what people call a development or I mean

is because you can see every year there are other designs but for example it is

always a question the big miracle formation of 2001 you know people say oh

the most complex formation or complicated formation it is not it was

the biggest and with the most circles in it but its geometry is very basic So

one always has to put it into a real back reference to what is really

complicated geometry.

But what I've also learned from the study of the historic crop circles is

there were times where crop circles showed up in the fields. Even here in

area, in Avebury, we have reports from Hackpen Hill or so, dating back about

into the 30s, 40s. Then it seems there was a time where there were no crop

circles. And now we're getting them back again, and they do a development like

an up and down. So maybe that's the reason why... it is and even you know

also nature shows sometimes very close geometries to very

complicated crop circles and nature is also something that is shows an

and development from the from the simple thing to a complicated thing so i think

this this could be part of the whole thing and it may we we may have

the apex yet

And it's getting back again maybe and in a few years we have no crop circles

anymore. This could happen because history showed that it happened already.

But also history teaches us that they will come back.

Of course I have to ask you the central question.

Who do you think is behind this?

And why is it happening?

Right. This is, I mean, as you said, it's the big question. And I myself

that crop circles have much more in common with unknown processes,

but also with miracles and wonders in nature as they have with little green

and of course as they have with people going out to the field to flatten crop.

Because I see a lot of similarities in what nature performs as geometrical

and wonders and it simply makes to me more sense.

But I don't mean that this is a normal phenomenon like rain and storm.

It has something more, I call it sometimes a

non -natural phenomenon.

It has a kind of... What's the word for that?

It is a supernatural natural phenomenon, and I don't know why they are here. I

see that they are here, and I feel also that the state of research is not on

such a point that we can answer this big question, why and who is doing the real

phenomenon. But as long as you realize that there is a real phenomenon, and

is an important point to make, then all the man -made ones and all the hoaxed

ones are not important at all.

Like a Van Gogh, the original is the important thing, not the copy you can

in a drugstore.

How do you interpret these formations?

What do you think is actually going on?

Well, when we look at these designs, it's obvious very quickly that they are

just simple circles, simple designs, that they have a very specific

construction.

And that construction can be deciphered, can be read from

many different angles.

It can be read through its geometry.

It can be read through the inherent mathematics that are encoded in the

construction. And there is usually a reference to an ancient symbol.

So by going back to the ancient symbol, we can extract the meaning from the

ancient symbol.

And then the mathematics has its own meaning, and so has the geometry.

But the interesting thing is that it tends to be the same. We find that.

I'm looking from ancient symbols, but the people who understand the

find the same meaning in it, and the same meaning in the geometry. So it can

read from different angles, and from different levels, too.

You know, but it's very interesting that these three link together, you know And

that is very rare because it's not purely an ancient symbol this it's never

exactly except for the Barbary Castle except for sometimes you have one that

really truly like an ancient symbol, but Mostly it refers to an ancient symbol,

but it's not exactly the same You know, we had a Mayan elder who came last year

and she said the the Mayan glyph I'm sure you remember up the Silver Hill

And we took her there. It arrived the same day as she did.

And she said, it's our most sacred symbol.

But it's not exactly like our ancient symbol. It is, but it's not exactly like

it. It has other dimensions attached to it.

And when people like Benoît Mandelbrot of fractal fame looks at these fractals,

he says, these are mathematical fractals, but there's an added dimension

It has a spiritual dimension, like an ancient symbol. So that's new.

That's new, because it brings in advanced knowledge with very ancient

and from different angles. And it makes a new whole, a new symbol, a new design.

What do you feel these patterns are doing to us as humans?

Any knowledge has the power to transform.

Whether it's knowledge through mathematics, and you know how a

gets excited when they discover new laws of the universe and so on. So it has

the power to transform the way we see things.

And transformation is always at that level.

It's always a transformation of the way we see things.

When that changes, everything changes because we express everything through

understanding of how things go, you know, how things are.

So a symbol has always been the way to transmit knowledge.

Knowledge has always been transmitted through symbols because you can put

many layers of meaning in a symbol, which you can't when it's written in a

So it's a visual thing, but it has many, many, many layers of meaning.

Mathematics is the same.

But mathematics doesn't have a spiritual dimension, whereas ancient symbol has a

spiritual dimension.

So the mathematicians who study this are, without realizing, they look at the

mathematics and they enter a spiritual dimension.

And the people who studied from an ancient knowledge, which was a spiritual

teaching, and actually connect with a mathematical understanding and a

So it opens everybody's perception, whichever angle you take it from.

It's very transformative.

Symbols are about understanding what kind of world we live in. And it

it transmits the understanding of how the universe works and the kind of laws

we're under.

And this is actually a spiritual teaching.

Mathematics will go into it and try to explain it from the point of view of

matter, of the effect of that on the physical.

The ancient knowledge is talking about principles and concepts behind the

physical, you see.

So to reach that level of understanding, you have to go above the physical.

You have to rise your mind above the...

what you can see touch feel taste and so on you have to raise above the physical

and in that sense you are trans you're learning you're you're growing

in understanding the ancient expression growing in understanding that's exactly

that you grow in understanding

Whereas if you bring everything down to, oh, it's not laid properly, oh, it's

not quite straight, you bring everything down and you don't look at the symbol,

you just look at the physical aspect. You bring it down to your own level of

what should be right and what should fit your idea, you know? So that's what I

was trying to explain in my lecture, that it's here to raise our

but the human mind has the tendency to try and drag everything down to its

level.

But this is a chance now we have to really begin to see the big picture.

Where do you think this is going to take us, Francine?

Well, it's going to take us to a more universal way of understanding,

knowledge. This is universal knowledge.

Ancient symbols are for everybody, for all time. They're timeless, and they're

not restricted.

They're not fundamental, like fundamentalist teaching, you know.

It's really learning about the principle, the concept, what that which

the physical, because the physical is simply a denser reality.

But it comes from there. It's a denser vibration.

So if you understand these principles and these concepts, then we understand

what kind of world we live in, you see. And if we do that, once we begin to

understand what kind of world we live in, we begin to fit better in it,

actually, because it gives us respect.

You know, and so I see the crop circle as a teaching, because we all

learn. You mentioned when I arrived that you like to come here because people

can discuss all sorts of metaphysical ideas and so on. Once you enter this

space, you enter a different reality, actually, and you begin to ask

Crop circles make us question, why is it here?

What kind of world do I live in?

How can it be here?

All these are questions that come up when you enter a cross -circle. And you

begin to look at the bigger picture rather than be concentrated just on a

mundane Monday to Friday, make enough money to pay the bills and that, at that

level. You begin to want to understand what kind of world is this?

What is it that I live in? And what's my place in it?

Who am I in all that? It opens these doors, you see.

Why just here, concentrated in a small area in Wiltshire?

They tend to come near ancient sites. They are where our ancestors all over

world considered sacred.

And they considered this place sacred because they felt that there was a

possibility of raising their consciousness in these areas.

And that's why they build their temples there. And they build their temples in

areas where the lines of energy of the Earth meet or connect, or there's a

point. And there is actually a natural energy that stimulates this.

And that's why they build the stone temples there and then the cathedrals

built on top of that. Most cathedrals are built on ancient stone circles using

the same stones because that space has that energy in it that as soon as you

enter that space, you're different.

You know, you enter a cathedral, ooh, your spirit is elevated immediately.

It's the same with crop circles. You get the same feeling. You enter a space

that is quite sacred.

And it's sacred because...

It can feed the soul, you know. And these areas, some are stronger than

some are more important than others.

We were told by Tibetan Lama that Avebury is actually the heart chakra of

world. And so this was always a land that was magical and a land that was

spiritual. It's the most spiritual area of the British Isles, actually.

So it's not surprising that crop circles come here. Crop circles need to be,

they're bringing us back to our ancient understanding, to the ancient sites, and

to the ancient sites of power where we can actually be fed.

When we enter a crop circle, we receive that energy, you see. It's always in

line. Look, Silbury Hill, West Canet, Long Valley. So they bring us to the old

building, to the old temple.