Original subtitles

-Well, don't we look cool?

We look like we just walked off the cover

of a Philo Vance novel, don't we?

Have any of you guys ever read a Philo Vance novel?

Anybody? -No.

-No?

Then you don't know how pretentious and dated they are.

But the first time the word "giallo " was used was in 1929.

The Rome publishing house Mondadori released

"The Benson Murder Case."

This was a best-selling American novel from 1926,

written by New York City social climber

what would have been called a dandy at the time,

who used the pen name S.S. Van Dine

and S.S. Van Dine's detective was Philo Vance,

who was the most cultured and well-educated

person in the world.

Ridiculously smart, he attended Harvard, Oxford,

German universities.

He was fluent in five languages.

He was an expert in art history, philosophy,

law, literature, anthropology,

and he had a natural instinct for figuring out

a murderer's true motives

because of his extensive studies in psychology.

Plus, he was a coin collector, a dog breeder,

an expert at archery, an ornithologist.

Always ordered the finest wines in the finest restaurants.

He was a pianist, a fencer, a boxer,

a chess player, able to figure out

casino gambling odds in his head.

He was always perfectly dressed and groomed.

In other words, Philo Vance is a pain in the ass.

Nevertheless, "The Benson Murder Case"

was a bestseller when it was released in 1926,

and it led to 11 more Philo Vance novels.

And when Mondadori decided to start

its mystery series in Italy,

they chose to translate it into Italian,

partly because many Italians had emigrated to New York City

over the past two decades,

and people in Italy were curious about high society in America.

So "giallo " is the Italian word for yellow.

And when "The Benson Murder Case" was released,

Mondadori used a bright yellow cover,

the same kind of cover they would use for all the rest

of the hundreds of crime novels

that they would publish over the next few decades.

But my point is, the giallo was foreign.

It was always foreign.

At first it was just American and British crime writers.

No Italians at all until after World War II,

and then just a few then.

So when Mario Bava decides to make a giallo film in 1962,

he's probably talking about a cheap paperback translation

of an American or a British writer like Agatha Christie,

Edgar Wallace, Rex Stout.

Does anybody remember Rex Stout?

Rex Stout was the creator of another genius

New York detective named Nero Wolfe.

Anyway, the giallo was a foreign puzzle story.

These were detective stories about murder solving.

They were intricate plots with smart Brits

and smart Americans figuring out crimes.

So it should be no surprise that one of the things

that happens when Italians start making giallo movies

is that they use foreigners in the lead roles.

It's almost like they didn't think Italians

were smart enough to --

Because all the Italian detectives in these movies

tend to be these dull, plodding bureaucrats

who are always barking up the wrong trees.

But the American or the Brit or the German shows up

and he figures out the crime.

So in "The Bird with the Crystal Pumage,"

it's the American novelist Sam Dalmas.

In Mario Bava's first giallo --

I'm going to call it a proto-giallo film --

"The Girl Who Knew Too Much," an American tourist in Rome

gets involved in a serial murder case,

even though the American tourist was played

by an Italian actress, Letícia Román.

And even though the cast of our next movie is mostly Italian,

the male lead is American actor Cameron Mitchell,

who worked with Bava three times,

and Bava, and he considered Bava

the greatest director he ever worked with,

and Mitchell had worked with John Ford,

Elia Kazan,

uh, Sam Peckinpah, Raoul Walsh, Stanley Kramer.

Okay, so I've said a lot about the origins of the word "giallo"

and its importance.

And actually Mondadori is still there.

It still publishes these giallo translations 96 years later.

But I want -- Now, I want you guys

to talk about what the word "giallo" means

and how it's used and misused in the film community,

because obviously it means something different now.

So Lars let's start with you. Go for it.

I know you feel strongly about it.

-Well, when you talk about giallo novels,

really, that's pretty much any kind of mystery

or thriller, mystery-thriller.

But when you talk about giallo films,

that is its own thing, because as a film,

we anticipate if we're watching a giallo,

that it's going to be a mystery

where the crime is solved by someone

who has been sort of spontaneously put into the role

of the investigator or the detective.

It's generally, or maybe always not,

it's not a cop, it's not a private eye.

It's someone who is like, witnessed a murder and now

has to get to the bottom of it.

Um, so that -- that sort of blow up, uh, angle of it

is kind of what we've come to think of as the giallo.

And then often generally,

and I will credit Argento with this,

there's often a psychological framework of it

where there's a neurosis or a psychosis

that forms a very difficult to detect motive for the murder,

that you have to put the jigsaw pieces

of this person's broken psyche together to determine.

-Okay, what about you, Troy, what do you think?

I know you feel strongly about --

I mean, the word "giallo " got transformed

when it became a movie.

So how did -- how is that transformation expressed?

-Well, as you rightly say, it comes from these series

of paperback pulp thrillers, effectively.

Um, another important aspect of that is the very lurid cover art

that was done for these books.

And so that's what really

the Italian filmmakers kind of tapped into.

Regardless of whether the books themselves were lurid or not,

they always promised sex and violence.

So that's a very important part of the whole giallo experience.

If you say giallo to an Italian, it's a thriller.

They don't really make any distinction.

You say it outside of Italy. It's a very specific thing.

I think it has to be primarily Italian,

understanding that these films,

usually there are other countries involved

in the financing.

Uh, "Blood and Black Lace," for example,

there's also French and German money in it.

Uh, this is not unusual, but primarily an Italian film.

There are a bunch of movies made in other countries,

especially Spain, during the 1970s.

There's a lot of giallo -type films.

I don't think they're true giallo,

but hey, that's just me.

-Because they can't deliver.

They can't deliver all those Italian elements

that we associate with.

-They try. -Okay.

Sam, anything to add to that?

-Yeah. And I agree with Troy that

they are a time and a place.

They -- They are primarily Italian.

I think post "Bird with the Crystal Plumage"

once you enter into '70s giallo,

there's really kind of the hallmarks of it form

in terms of the stylistic choices --

black gloves, um, the scores.

I think the scores play a huge part

and some sort of societal concern.

I think after Plumage they become kind of street level

versus "Blood and Black Lace,"

which still feels very gothic and classical.

And then I think everything after that is, you know,

I hate to add a word post, but it's like post-hardcore,

like, every movie after that is kind of like post-giallo,

and they're using the stylistic choices and nodding to them,

but the more pure aspects of it were, I think,

mainly the decade of the '70s.

-What about you, Claire? What's giallo mean today?

-I have been thinking about this,

and I sort of think that it would be easier

to define what a giallo is.

Um, not so much by like,

checking off a bunch of items on a list,

but by having, like, a bingo card.

And once you get a certain density of the right elements,

then it's okay because if you really --

When people start to describe the typical giallo,

we all say the same things.

It's like, oh, you have the reluctant

fish-out-of-water detective who usually is foreign.

You have the black-gloved killer.

And a lot of these descriptions

are just descriptions of Argento movies.

And when you really start looking at a list

of what the proper gialli are,

even the ones that most people agree on,

those elements are not in lots and lots of them.

And then you have folks like us arguing about which

which movies are gialli at all.

I actually, I know this is controversial,

but, you know, Umberto Lenzi made those movies

with Carroll Baker, and I find a lot of them

are just like neurotic psychodramas.

They're not really gialli to me.

But then some people will argue that "Suspiria" is a giallo.

-It is not. -And it --

It is not, but -- -Damn right.

-But people say this who are not always morons.

And it's, um, I just think it's -- it's provocative

that we have to argue about this.

-So there's a non-moron critical mass of people

who have a larger definition of the giallo.

-Yeah. I don't want to accuse anyone on TV,

but I've heard the arguments.

I'm like, alright, I understand why you think that.

-The -- The one thing we haven't really pointed out

is that it's not supernatural in nature.

That's a thing that the giallo,

I think that that must be the case,

that it is not supernatural in nature.

-It get's tricky though. -Yeah.

-Like, yeah, Fulci's "The Psychic" is very giallo.

-Bava's "Hatchet for the Honeymoon" is another one

where it turns into a ghost story at the end.

-I mean, but isn't it true

sometimes you think it's supernatural, but it's not?

-Well, yeah. -Scooby-Doo.

-Scooby-Doo ending, yeah, yeah, true.

-Alright, in the Battle for the Black Glove,

what is the score, Darcy?

It is 30-30.

-There you go. -Alright.

-Tied at halftime.

-Now we're going to watch the film that was regarded as the foundation film of the giallo,

uh, "Blood and Black Lace."

A film that was not a success at the box office,

but it had a really outsized influence on other filmmakers,

and it continues to have that influence to this day.

"Blood and Black Lace is the sensitive story

of a haute couture fashion house,

where the models and designers

are being stalked by a black-gloved killer

looking for a diary that details all kinds of scandals

involving jealousy, infidelity, blackmail, drugs,

and of course, murder.

And sure, we've seen it before,

but have we seen it with a spiked-metal glove

that just might be the prototype for Freddy Krueger?

I think not.

So let's take a look at those drive-in totals.

We have...

Chase. Kidnapping. Blackmail. Double cross fu

Drive-In Academy Award nominations for Eva Bartok

as the Countess with a modeling career who says,

"The show must go on, you know."

Cameron Mitchell as the fashion-house owner

for being Cameron Mitchell,

Mary Arden as the model who finds the diary for saying,

"Please believe me, I burned it!"

Thomas Reiner as the grim-faced inspector

who says, "Perhaps the sight of beauty

makes him lose control of himself, so he kills,"

Carlo Rustichelli, the composer for the jazzy score

that keeps us slightly unsettled the whole time.

And of course, Mario Bava for making a movie

we're still talking about 61 years later.

Four stars. Joe Bob says, "Check it out."

People eventually got sick of those

Philo Vance detective novels.

And my theory is that

once you meet Sam Spade and Philip Marlowe,

you cannot stomach this weenie with a pencil mustache

who quotes Schopenhauer at the cocktail party.

You know, "The Big Sleep" comes out in, um, 1939.

"The Maltese Falcon" came out in 1929,

and Philip Marlowe could just beat

Philo Vance's ass blindfolded, with both hands tied,

and Sam Spade could beat his ass and then sell him into slavery.

So you know what I mean.

The L.A., what happened is the L.A. detectives

just wipes New York detectives off the map.

-Until "Shaft" brought them back.

-True, true.

Shaft was the first New York detective

to take -- take the mantle back.

-Damn right. -So Shaft could chop Philo Vance

into pieces and feed him to the squirrels.

-That's true.

-What's got into you? Why didn't you phone?

Isabella might see us.

-Did you bring some? -No.

-I can't stand it anymore.

I can't stand it anymore.

-Be patient.

When I'm through, we'll get some.

How about Isabella?

-We had a quarrel.

Damn her!

She even took what I had.

Try to hold out.

We'll find some, for sure.

Please hold out.

Please.

Go now.

-Okay. Later.

Okay.

Goodbye.

-Isabella. Your scarf.

-Thanks. -Goodbye.

-Aah!

Jack!

-The sign seems to have come off again.

Want me to fix it?

-No. No. Not today.

You can do it tomorrow.

Listen, Isabella hasn't turned up again.

I don't know what to do with that girl.

This is the third time.

-All I suggest is a penalty.

Make her pay a fine.

-It's all very well.

The next time she does it, I'm going to fire her.

-Good night, madame. -Good night.

Nicole.

Look at this dress.

I wish you'd take care of the things you wear.

Tomorrow's the show. Now, look at this.

-Yes, madam. I'm sorry.

-Yes, you are sorry, especially when it's time to leave.

You have absolutely no mind for anything else.

-What does she expect?

I'm not in mourning like her. -Poor thing.

She hasn't been the same since her husband died.

-Aah! Isabella!

-How long were the lights out?

-About 10 minutes.

-How long has the girl worked for you?

-About two years.

-What was she like?

-She was rather lively,

perhaps lacking discipline.

Nothing seriously wrong with her.

-Did she have many friends?

-Well, Inspector, I'm afraid I can't be of much help to you.

I suggest you ask the two girls who lived with her.

-Inspector Sylvester, Countess Christina Como,

the owner of our salon.

-Good morning. -Good morning.

But we've already met, haven't we?

-Oh. Oh, yes. Yes, I think so.

After my husband's death.

-I remember. The car accident.

Uh, you certainly can help me.

You surely know everything about these girls.

-Inspector, I don't run a boarding school.

When the girls finish here, they --

they're free to go and do as they please.

Well, um, I'll be in the studio,

if you'll excuse me. -Please.

-You say you went outside to repair the metal sign?

At what time was it? -About 7:00.

Madam Christina complained that the noise got on her nerves.

So I went out and I put up the sign again.

But I came back inside at once.

-Mr. Morlan, I demand an explanation.

I hardly put my foot inside the gate

when these two grabbed ahold of me.

-Ask the inspector. -Inspector?

-Calm down and tell me why you're here.

-Allow me.

Marquis Richard Morell.

-Alright, alright. Now, answer my question.

-He's here to see me. He's my fiancé.

-Why are you laughing?

-Because I live with him.

-Did you know Isabella?

-Isabella?

You introduced me to her, didn't you?

Yes, I can say I knew her. Only slightly, though.

-Only slightly.

-Well, you seem to be the only one who cares.

-They were close friends.

-The three of you lived together?

-Yes. -What was she like?

Tell me who your friend went out with.

-I don't know, I don't know. -Leave her alone.

Everybody knows who Isabella's lover was.

-Who are you?

-Caesar Lazar. I'm a dress designer.

-What about the other name?

-Which? -The name of this lover.

-Scalo. Frank Scalo, the antique dealer.

-Please tell me, where is Inspector? -In there. -Thank you.

-Would you excuse me for a moment?

-They confirm.

Drugs.

-I see. -Yes, sir.

-So...what kind of a relationship was there

with Isabella and you?

-We were just friends.

-Or lovers.

-Well, I hope it doesn't become scandalized if I tell you.

But I don't believe in permanent,

exclusive relationships.

-I see, I see.

Ever seen it before?

-No. I don't know.

What is it?

-Cocaine.

It was found in your friend Isabella's house.

-Isabella?

-You knew nothing about it?

-No.

-Never mind.

However, I must ask you to remain at my disposal.

I'll see you later.

-Turn around.

Alright. You can go. Hurry!

Well, Caesar, what is it?

-This should have been worn by -- by poor Isabella.

-Yes. Of course. -Who shall I give it to?

-Well, let me see.

Oh, Peggy. Look. Here. -Please. No. Not me.

No, no. Please. I saw her put that dress on.

-Oh, for heaven's sake, stop that!

You're going to ruin your makeup!

Greta, you model it.

-Oh, no, I don't think I should wear it.

-Look, don't be so silly. -It carries bad luck, I'm sure.

-But, girl, someone's got to model it.

-I'll wear the dress. -Alright. Now come on.

-What a cynic. She doesn't believe in anything.

-That's alright. You can go.

-Turn around.

Walk.

Alright.

-Wait.

There's something missing.

The brooch. The brooch goes there.

-We'll soon put it right. Where is it?

-Well, it was Isabella's own. Wait a minute.

She kept it in one of the boxes. Let's look for it.

-Here it is.

Hey. Look at this.

Isabella kept a diary.

This is a gold mine. Listen.

"He is a man that awakens such deep feelings in me

that afterwards I feel limp, empty."

-Let me see.

-I don't think we should.

-Come. Are you crazy?

This is hardly the moment.

Be off with you. Go on. Go on and change.

This, you know, should be handed to the police.

-I found it.

If you don't mind,

I would like to give it to the police tomorrow.

-As you wish.

-Hello? Hello, Frank?

Why haven't you come? -I'm just leaving,

but I don't feel well.

-I understand.

Come out here. I've got some.

Listen, Frank. I found a diary. Isabella's diary.

-A diary?

Who else knows?

-Everyone was looking.

I didn't realize that there might be

something about you in it.

By the way, I said that I would give it

to the police tomorrow. -Good.

That gives us time to look through it.

I'll be right over.

-But you are terribly ill, Frank.

Frank? Can you hear me?

-Nicole, I can hardly breathe.

If you've got some, I'll feel better. Goodbye.

-Goodbye.

-Hurry up, girls. Greta, you're next.

Everything alright, Marco? -Yes, madam.

-Good.

Well, Caesar, where have you been?

-Right here. -Well, then, send them in.

Do I have to do everything myself?

-Nicole, you're wanted on the phone.

-Me? -Yes, you.

-Hello? -Hello? Is that you, Nicole?

-Yes. Who's speaking?

-Frank. I can't make it.

I feel too bad.

You come here. Please?

I feel like I'm suffocating. -How can I come now?

Well, I will do my best. I will come right away.

-Alright, hurry up, hurry up.

-Frank feels bad. He needs me.

I'll have to go over. I can't wait anymore.

Please lend me your car. -How are you going to get away?

We're right in the middle of a show.

-Who cares? Please give me your keys.

But don't let anyone see you.

-Peggy, what are you doing?

-Nothing. I was looking for a handkerchief.

Be careful. The alarm is in the glove compartment,

right at the back. -Sure.

Cover me.

-So Nicole's bag disappears and with it,

the diary that everybody seems way too interested in.

But what an opening.

This beautiful house surrounded by beautiful women

who have to be beautiful for a living.

And it's all surrounded by drugs,

deception, fear and murder.

There's an assumption in a lot of giallo films,

not just this one, that anywhere you have luxury,

you also have corruption.

And in fact, the luxury hides the corruption.

And added to the atmosphere

is those creepy mannequins everywhere.

Plus, the killer himself looks a little like a mannequin

with that white mask.

So Bava has put up this flashing neon sign

that says people who traffic in beauty and wealth are ugly, so.

Or we'll see what our panel says

as the Battle for the Black glove continues.

We have a dead tie, 30 to 30.

We're going to try to settle for all time

which movie is the foundation film for giallo --

"The Bird with the Crystal Plumage,"

or "Blood and Black Lace."

And it's your turn, Lars.

The topic is hatred of the aristocracy.

Go for it.

Why is Bava better at hating the aristocrats?

-Well, if you're in Italy and it's in the '60s,

uh, it's a relatively recent phenomenon

that your whole country,

uh, the industrialists, the aristocrats, the wealthy

got together and they did a little trick called,

uh, fascism and colluding with Hitler.

And it practically destroyed your entire country.

So, uh, the fact is, at this time,

the leading political parties

were like, socialists, the communists.

Uh, there was Marxism and socialists going around,

and it was a very mainstream pursuit, um,

because they hated the wealthy,

because the wealthy had done to them.

It practically destroyed their whole country.

And I think that like, uh, if we're sort of wondering, like,

why would you hate the aristocracy this much?

It's like, well, try going through like, uh, you know,

20 years of fascism that destroys your whole country,

uh, literally demolishes all your cities, your schools,

your universities, and you're having to rebuild.

So that's why the aristocracy is so hated.

And that's the -- that's the pool that --

that Bava's drawing from, that hatred of the aristocracy.

-And you're saying that he does that more than Argento?

-Well, Argento really, who was a socialist,

but -- but he's -- he's also kind of a member of that class,

of that aristocratic class.

-Okay.

And Sam Zimmerman, curator of Shudder,

it's your turn to confirm or rebut what Lars says

from the Argento point of view.

-Well, you know,

even if Argento was a member of that class,

his films take the giallo to a bit more street level

than I think Bava's work was.

You know, Bava's work is very, uh, high artifice, gothic.

On the street, you can see Argento empathizing

and taking the point of view of the marginalized,

Even in Plumage,

there are folks he clearly has care for,

whether it's the pimp in jail,

whether it's the "pervert in the lineup."

Um, so I think he's taking it from the point of view

of being with the people

rather than in the sort of high-fashion houses Bava does.

-Okay, and now Claire Donner,

big cheese in the Institute for Miskatonic Studies.

And Troy Howarth, author of many books,

including books on Mario Bava.

You guys are free to join in.

-I think -- -Bava or Argento?

-In terms of what Lars was saying,

which I absolutely agree with, um,

Bava lived through that period as an adult

in a way that Argento didn't.

Argento was born in 1940.

He's of a younger generation.

He doesn't really experience that firsthand.

You know, he's there for the kind of the end part of it.

But as a child, uh,

whereas Bava was already an adult,

he actually is, you know, part of the film industry at the time

when Mussolini was still very much involved.

Mussolini controlled the film industry

during that period of time.

-He built Cinecittà.

-He built Cinecittà.

He established the -- the Rome Cinema School.

So, you know, it was something that he definitely encountered.

And I think in a way, you know,

it impacted him a little bit more directly

than it did with Argento.

So I think that aspect comes across

a little bit stronger in his films.

-I will respond to this if you promise to say

Miskatonic Institute of Horror Studies.

-Miskatonic Institute of Horror Studies.

What did I say? Institute of Miskatonic...

something else? -Yeah, some words.

It's fine.

There's a lot of words in the name.

-Miskatonic Institute of Horror Studies.

-We did it! -They have a website.

-We do have a website. -And -- and classrooms.

-Sort of. Yeah. -Okay.

-I mean, anywhere that you're learning is a classroom,

I suppose, including the streets.

Um, but don't you love it when so long,

the pimp with the heart of gold,

says it's got to be some rich guy?

It's like, yeah, probably.

And Argento, you know,

I think the case could be made

that if you come from the inside,

you're more aware of what these people are like

and how perverse and degenerate

they are from seeing it up close.

And Argento also as a young man,

because he was such a like snotty brat, frankly,

would kind of run away from home and live with prostitutes

and run around, you know, eating junk food and starving

and or anyway, this is the way he tells it,

but I have to take it for granted because I wasn't there.

So I think --

-That sounds like a dissipated aristocratic class.

-Well, I just think that he sort of sees

both sides of things

and that he's airing frustration with these movies.

-I think Tim Argento's defense of Mussolini

and the brownshirts is absolutely unconscionable.

-Alright.

And should be remembered when scoring happens.

-Alright, uh, on that note,

I'm calling time, and I'm just going to take

a moment here to tally up the points.

I should mention that many people have commented

that Bava's cast features

some of the most beautiful women in the world at that time,

most of them destined to become

fetishistic corpses in the movie.

But the boss woman in the fashion house

playing Cristiano Cuomo, the -- the Countess

was famous for being so beautiful

that no man could resist her.

Uh, dozens of men fell in love with her,

and she had this tumultuous love life and marriage life

that was just incredible.

She was Hungarian,

and her father disappeared without a trace

when the Nazis took over Hungary,

and at the age of 15, she was forced to marry

a Nazi officer to avoid going to a concentration camp.

And then she later married a friend

who promised to get passage to Paris for her and her mother,

and then her third husband was British producer Alexander Paul,

who took her to England

to make a film called "A Tale of Five Women."

And then her fourth guy,

I think he was common law, was Alexander Korda,

the president of MGM England,

who placed her under contract at MGM.

And then she was with a PR guy named William Wordsworth --

Good name for a PR guy --

who sent her to premieres and opening nights

and promoted her career.

But because she couldn't afford the gowns for the red carpet,

she started designing her own clothing

and became notable for wearing weird costumes and hats.

Then, an Italian promoter offered her a contract

to perform in a vaudeville show,

which led to many stage appearances

in the major cities of Italy,

and then Burt Lancaster hired her to be the leading lady

in "The Crimson Pirate" in 1952,

but that didn't lead to anything lasting,

and then she became famous for an affair

with David Michael Mountbatten,

who was in the British royal family,

and she was actually named in his divorce papers.

And then in 1953, she finally fell in love with somebody.

She fell in love with Curt Jurgens, the German actor,

and they got married.

And then she did a lot of London stage work

and the occasional Hollywood movie or TV show.

And then she gave birth in 1957 to a daughter

that she said much later was fathered by Frank Sinatra.

But she named the daughter Deana in honor of Dean Martin,

who she was working with when she got pregnant

on a movie called "10,000 Bedrooms."

So that whole thing doesn't make sense.

And then she becomes one of the actresses known

for pretty-woman type roles in Italy.

And she makes this movie in 1964 at the age of 37,

and then retires from acting entirely in 1967 at age 40,

and becomes a devotee of mystical teachings

and dies in a London hospital alone and penniless

in 1998 at the age of 71.

Woo! -Wow!

-Had to do that just in view of her place in history,

because this is probably the greatest of all her roles.

Alright. The Battle for the Black Glove is all tied up.

Well, it's no longer tied up at 30-30

because I had to --

I had to give six points to the Team Bava for the --

-Six points. -For the more in-depth

familiarity with the hated aristocracy.

So it's now 34 Argento, 36 Bava.

And now we're going back to Nicole

responding to the phone call from Frank,

played by Dante Di Paolo,

a former Broadway actor famous for being the husband

of Rosemary Clooney

and for being one of those singing, dancing brothers in

"Seven Brides for Seven Brothers."

And apparently he's a hophead now.

So roll the movie.

-Isn't he?

-What's a hophead? -He's a hophead.

-Legal is never going to let that go.

-He's a hophead in this movie. -I don't know what that means.

-Well, he's dead now.

-A hophead. You know, like...

Does hophead always mean heroin?

Or does it sometimes mean other drugs?

He's a hophead. -Who are you asking.

I don't know.

You know, I'm remembering a line from --

from James M. Cain novel, "Mildred Pierce."

And she had to use men like ladders.

That's -- That's -- That's not the exact line.

But that was the idea.

And it seems from her interviews

that Curt Jurgens was the one man

that Eva Bartok was truly in love with.

But she was constantly thrown into these situations

where her beauty was the only thing

that would get her to the next job, so.

-Girl's gotta do, what a girl's gotta do, man.

-Survivor. Right. -That's right.

-Once it works on the Nazis,

you know it's got to work on everybody.

-True. -Anyway, she was --

She was a diva on this set, apparently.

Uh, but I think she's brilliant in the role.

-Well, sometimes you can earn the right to be a diva.

-Well... -Just saying.

-I would say marrying into the Gestapo

in order to save your life and the life of your mother,

yeah, that counts for that right to be diva.

-Diva! -We'll allow it, we'll allow it.

Frank?

Frank?

Frank?

Frank.

Frank?

Aah!

Aah!

Aah!

-Have a good time, but don't come home too late. Please. -Good night.

-Peggy. -Marco. Why did you get out?

-I wanted to keep you company till Nicole gets in.

Aren't you afraid in there alone?

-Well, to tell you the truth, I'm awfully tired.

I wanted to go to sleep right away.

-But don't you have to wait till...

till Nicole brings a car back anyway?

Please. -Alright, alright.

Come on up. -Thanks.

I couldn't have gone off with an easy mind

knowing you were alone in this house.

-Oh, Clarice, you're still here?

-Good evening, miss.

Yes, I've just finished.

Miss Nicole hasn't come home? -No. She's gone to a party.

She'd be home later. She's always mothering us.

-Well, I'll be running along.

Oh, I left the dinner heating on the stove.

Oh, if Miss Nicole wants that mess of hers,

she only has to warm it up.

-Thank you, Clarice. Goodnight. See you tomorrow.

-Peggy...

you just don't seem to understand.

-Of course, I -- -Peggy,

I'm tired of trying to make you understand.

Now, I've told you a thousand times --

I've fallen in love with you.

I don't care what happens, but...

-Calm down. Sit here.

-You see, I'm not well.

I know I look like a fool.

That's what makes me mad.

I'm ill and unlucky. -Don't be like that.

I understand you. I'm your friend.

Come on, cheer up.

-I'll get yours. -Don't touch it!

Don't touch it! -What's wrong?

I just wanted cigarettes. What's wrong?

-I'll get the cigarettes. You're just untidy in my bag.

Hello? -Good evening, Miss Peggy.

This is Inspector Sylvester.

I have to ask you something about your car.

Your car has been found abandoned.

I want to know if it has been stolen.

-No. I lent it to my friend Nicole.

Yes. Yes. She was in a hurry.

A friend of hers called to say he felt ill.

But has something happened?

-We better talk about this in person.

I'll come over and see you right away.

-Very well. I'll be waiting.

-What's up? -They found my car,

but without Nicole.

My God, what could have happened?

-Is he coming here? -Yes. He wants to talk to me.

-Then...I better leave.

I don't want the police to find me here.

-Yes. It's best no one knows you've been here.

-Yes.

For me, and especially for you.

-Yes, I suppose so.

-I'll see you tomorrow. -Tomorrow.

-October 16th,

I caught Peggy

trying to steal $1,000

from my purse.

She began to cry and explained

how much she needed it.

She was pregnant and not able

to face the scandal.

I felt sorry and I

loaned her the money.

It means that tomorrow

I will ask him for $2,000.

I burned it! I burned it. I burned it. I burned it.

Aah!

Aah!

Aah!

Aah!

-Miss Peggy?

-So this is the part of the movie

where the audience starts to realize,

"Oh my God, we're apparently going to watch this whole movie

from the point of view of the killer."

We're going to actually see the stalking

and the terror and the actual death,

instead of what would happen traditionally in mystery movies

where you find a dead body or you see a single gunshot

and then somebody collapses to the ground.

That's why many critics call this the first slasher film,

because no one had ever seen a movie like this

where the kills are celebrated.

Um, Mario Bava was so uninterested in the characters

of the dead women

that he didn't even bother hiring actresses

for most of those roles.

Uh, Isabella, the first victim

was played by a woman named Francesca Ungaro,

who was never seen before or after in any other movie,

leading to the conclusion of most people

that Francesca Ungaro is not even a real name.

Nicole, the victim in the antique shop,

was played by Ariana Guarini,

a fashion model who had -- she only had three screen roles.

Mary Arden, who plays Peggy,

was a genuine big name fashion model.

She walked the runway for Yves Saint Laurent

and Christian Dior and Karl Lagerfeld,

but she had little interest in acting.

The scene we just watched,

where she gets repeatedly knocked down,

was shot twice, once with her,

once with a stuntman in drag,

because some of those physical moves

would be impossible otherwise.

Which leads me to the next topic in our

Battle for the Black Glove, Bava versus Argento.

The topic is the ruination of beauty.

Is it true that in a giallo

anything conventionally beautiful

must be either defaced or destroyed

or uglied up in some manner?

And how do Bava and Argento

compare in their ability to reveal the intense ugliness

beneath the veneer of beauty?

You're up first, Claire.

-Well, not to keep bringing up my fancy

bachelor's degree in art history,

but female beauty is, like,

the maybe oldest focus of all art, right?

So there's something kind of special

about ruining that in the giallo,

which I insist is a reaction to, you know,

the old world crumbling away

and the savage modern world coming to bear on things.

Bava does love defacing women, like, literally.

And you kind of gotta respect that.

That's a lot of fun, and the things that he does

to the beautiful Barbara Steele are like legendary, right?

But Argento is really attacking.

He's -- He attacks beautiful women in a way

that seems to point out,

as Sam was saying earlier, their vulnerability

and the constant imperiledness of being an attractive,

conceivably virginal young woman in Italy.

Um, and I think it's really meaningful

that this attack is so often carried out by an older,

uglier woman who's been there and done that.

Okay.

-The rebuttal slot belongs to Team Bava.

And that's you, Troy.

-Well, that's one way of looking at it.

Uh, whether it's right or not, it's another thing altogether.

Um, I think, you know,

given the fact that we're talking about a film

that is over 60 years old at this point,

it is extraordinary how vicious and physical

the kill scenes in this movie are.

Um, even if they're not explicitly super gory,

the blood is applied in a way that's very theatrical.

It looks like lipstick.

It's not the kind of high-tech special effects

that you'll see in an Argento film,

but they're physical, and it's just that,

that image of smashing the face against the tree, for example,

smashing the face against a red hot stove.

The scene where Mary Arden is just beaten,

beaten like crazy in that beautifully appointed sort of

drawing room that's taking place with the fire in the background.

Uh, Bava has this knack for finding beauty

in horrific situations.

It's his use of lighting. It's his use of decor.

Uh, it's his very elegant staging within the shots.

And I think that that's something that,

yeah, there are more explicitly violent films than this one.

But for a movie from 1964,

I think this still packs a tremendous wallop.

-Okay. Thank you, Troy. Everybody can join in now.

Sam. Lars.

-Yeah, I think, uh,

first of all, I'll concede to Troy.

I think Bava's image can be quite vicious

and especially the implications of them.

You brought up the Barbara Steele moment

in "Black Sunday."

Something that you have to look away from

even though you don't see it explicitly.

What captivates me about how Argento frames a lot of this

with respect to art and beauty is,

he's often looking through a frame

as if it is a screen or, um, a portrait frame, a painting.

You know, you're seeing them in art galleries in "Deep Red."

It's through the window.

Uh, there's lots of windows that, of course,

figure into Argento's work and the act of watching.

So I think he is often tying these things to the --

the nature of -- of art and beauty

and how we look at people who are beautiful

and then explicitly ruining them.

-Yeah. It's a -- There's --

The aesthetic qualities of it

still pop even all these years later.

And I think that's really notable because a lot of people

are probably watching this for the first time

and they're shocked.

It's an old movie. They can tell it's an old movie.

You can tell by the way people dress

and act that it's an old movie,

and yet you're seeing things that are so graphic

and so much more violent

than would even be appropriate in a,

certainly, a Hollywood movie of today.

-But do you think Bava's dead fashion models

are better than Argento's dead fashion models?

-I think I don't even think

there's a dispute in this matter.

I think absolutely Bava kills fashion models far better

than Dario Argento ever dreamed of doing.

-Claire?

-But those women are killed by people

who aren't necessarily doing it for the fun of it.

And I think this is really important.

You know, you ultimately find out all this dreary,

soap operatic nonsense

that's behind the kills in the Bava movie

that, um, really is like kind of a red herring

that's supposed to distract you from these, like,

inheritance machinations and stuff

that are always present in his films.

In the Argento picture,

you've got a woman who's really after the business

of destroying this beauty.

It's emotional, it's personal, it's more meaningful.

-That said, I think that nobody

who doesn't enjoy what they're doing

would kill with as much gusto

as the killer does in "Blood and Black Lace."

-That killer loves it. That killer loves to kill.

-That killer's getting off on it.

-Yeah. -Absolutely.

-I have to assume Bava had fewer materials to work with

when he was creating those dead bodies.

-Oh, God. Yes. -But I don't know.

-Oh, no. -But, I mean --

-There's no comparison between what Bava --

-He's a multi-generation special effects guys.

-Yeah, yeah. -You know?

Anything to say about the special effects?

-Well, actually, with Bava, because he's an FX guy,

you kind of sense that that's where he's deriving his pleasure

is just from, like, the fun of problem solving.

And maybe the less you have to work with,

the more fun it is to see what you can accomplish.

And that, I think, is what produces these like fabulous,

if crude, gore effects.

Where with Argento you really get a sense

of this character's pain and anguish

and sadomasochistic urges.

-I think when you look at Bava's film,

it really is, um, it's a photo book, you know?

You're -- You're -- You are going through an art book,

and if you were to take 50 random frames out of this film

and publish it and say, this is a monograph by Cindy Sherman,

people would believe it.

Like, it actually --

It actually is fine art in its own way,

within this very, sort of pulpy, very sort of popular context.

It is pulp art.

-Okay, well, you guys convinced me.

I think I gotta give another six for, uh, round two, uh, Bava.

-Whoa. -Can't argue with that.

-Which makes the score 38-42.

Uh, and, um,

I'll just mention that the ads for this movie promised,

"The 30 most beautiful women in the world."

I'm not sure there are actually 30 women in the whole cast.

-30 people in the whole cast.

-Even if you count extras and day players.

But a more honest ad would have said,

"We're gonna take 30 of the most beautiful women

in the world and mess them up."

-Yeah. -So, uh, anyway.

The score is 38-42.

We're going now back to Inspector Sylvester's

intrepid search for the mass killer

in "Blood and Black Lace."

Roll the film.

Mary Arden, who we just talked about,

started her career as one of The June Taylor Dancers.

Nobody remembers The June Taylor Dancers,

I don't think, but they performed every Saturday night

on "The Jackie Gleason Show,"

which was a big deal in the '50s and the '60s.

It was a variety show,

and the money shot was at the end of their routine,

this overhead camera would turn the bodies

of The June Taylor Dancers into a kaleidoscope, and --

-Are you sure that's what it was?

-Well, maybe not a kaleidoscope.

They're, like, sprawled out on the floor,

moving their hands and legs like a kaleidoscope.

Kaleidoscope dancing, it was a thing.

-I feel like you're making that up.

Well -- Well, we can't --

We can't ask Mary Arden because she died in 2014.

But I think that's -- I think that's what it's called.

-There's probably footage out. -Actually, that's a good idea.

Anybody who has June Taylor footage

from "The Jackie Gleason Show,"

tell us if you can spot Mary Arden in the kaleidoscope

and circle her on there and send that to us.

-I promise you, somebody's going to do that.

-It's such a good use of time.

Yeah, that's mutant, mutant AI. I call this mutant AI.

We'll just give them the assignment

and it'll come back to us.

-Let's do it.

-Good evening. I must ask you to excuse me.

There's no time to be visiting, but it's a rather urgent matter.

-Please, make yourself comfortable.

Why did you come here?

Charles, you may go, please.

Well, then? -A little while ago, I...

I found Nicole lying in my shop.

S-She's been murdered.

-Oh, my God.

-I'd gone to the salon to pick up Nicole.

Remember? I met you there at the time.

I looked for her everywhere, but I couldn't find her.

Then I went back to my shop...

and believe me, I...

I've never seen such a mess.

-You'll pardon me, but why have you come here

instead of calling the police?

-Nicole was my girlfriend.

She was murdered in my shop.

The police will be accusing me of it.

I need an alibi, and you've got to help me.

-Me? What have I got to do with it?

-Me? You're just as much to blame for it as I am.

We've got to tell the police that we're always together

at the salon, right to the end.

I'll back you up. You do the same for me.

It's best for both of us.

-But you're mad.

The police have no reason to accuse me of anything.

You're the one who's in trouble.

You really could have killed her.

No, no. Call the police at once, or I'll have to.

-Alright, go right ahead.

But don't forget to tell him about your bad debt.

-What debts?

-You signed IOUs to Isabella

for a loan of several thousand dollars

and couldn't pay the money back.

-Is it true? Richard, you never told me.

Is it true?

My God. My God.

-You, my dear Marquis, don't have a single dollar

to your name.

You're absolutely flat and afraid of a scandal!

Which is a good enough reason for...for killing Isabella.

At same time eliminating the possibilities of her diary

being read by the police.

Who knows?

Perhaps her diary

had the dates on which the payments were due.

-Which diary? I know nothing of it.

-Don't lie, Richard.

I told you Nicole had found Isabella's diary.

-As you see, we sink or swim together, Mr. Morell.

And if you don't want the police meddling around

in your private affairs...

I suggest you take my advice.

I'm going back to my shop now and call the inspector.

I'll tell him that we were always together.

Alright?

Good evening.

You've got to believe me, I burned it!

I tell you, I burned it!

There was something about my private life

I didn't want anybody to know about.

You've got to believe me! I burned it!

Aah!

Please believe me, I burned it! You got to believe me!

Burned it!

No! No!

No!

No!

Aah!

Oh, God!

No!

No!

No!

-How do you think this girl got in here?

-She had a key.

-How come?

-I'd given it to her.

She used to come and see me now and then.

-Her too?

-Inspector, please don't think that I...

Nicole was the reason why I left Isabella.

-And how many other people had a key to your door?

-No one else, except myself naturally.

-Naturally.

Did you take drugs with her too?

-Why, what do you mean? Inspector?

-Come, come, come, Scalo.

Don't try to fool me.

You've got the habit. It's written all over your face.

If you like, I'll even tell you where you get the stuff.

And, uh, as for the girls who...

who, shall we say, keep you company...

they either try to get you to drop the habit like Isabella,

or join you in it like this one, for example.

-Alright. Perhaps.

But that doesn't make me a murderer.

Besides, I -- I've got an alibi.

I was with -- -I haven't asked you...

for the time being.

We'll go on with it later.

-When? -In my office.

Come along.

-Is this the one? -Yes.

-Are you sure? -Oh, yes.

Wait a minute. I wrote down the first number.

Uh, 453.

You can see.

-Did you see a man or a woman? -A man. I am sure.

He was dressed in black,

but he seemed to not have a face.

-Perhaps he was wearing a mask. -Perhaps. I don't know.

I was distracted by the horn. -Which horn?

-The horn of this car, Inspector.

I know it. I've serviced it.

It blew for a time, and then it stopped.

-Has this car got a burglar alarm, Sergeant?

-Yes. It's here, in the glove compartment.

-How long did it blow?

-I don't know. I told you -- it wasn't for long.

This long?

-Stop. Not longer than that.

-If you don't know where it is,

it will take quite a while to find it.

-We've wasted enough time on this.

Let's go to the office.

Come in, please.

-Thank you.

-Look at them carefully.

Have you ever seen any of them in Miss Peggy's car?

-Good morning, Mr. Morlan.

-Morning, Clarice. -Have you seen him in the car?

-Certainly. She's seen me before in the car.

On more than one occasion. What's so strange about that?

-And who said there was?

Let's continue.

-Him. I've seen him in the car.

-Of course she's seen me. What does it prove?

This is all so ridiculous. -Be quiet.

-You didn't see only me, did you?

Open your eyes, you idiot!

Look at him. Haven't you ever seen him?

-Inspector, do you only want to know

if I saw them in the car? -Why?

-Because...this gentleman came into the flat

with Miss Peggy last night.

-We are beginning to see the light now.

-You swine! What are you getting at?

You want to ruin me?

I'll kill you! I'll kill you!

Why don't you confess?

Confess! Confess!

You're the murderer!

Inspector, look at his face. He hates women!

Look at him! He's the killer, I tell you! He's the killer!

He killed them all because he couldn't go with any of them!

Why don't you tell the inspector

that your wife left you for that very reason?

My pills... My pills!

-Try to hold him still. He could hurt himself.

Take him to the hospital.

-Didn't any of you know he was an epileptic?

-No, I didn't.

-You can go home now.

-Goodbye, Clarice.

-I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I'll have to ask you

to stay here, Mr. Morlan.

You too, Mr. Lazar.

-What do you mean stay here?

-I mean I shall have warrants made out for your arrest.

-Uh... pardon me, Inspector,

what exactly is the reason behind this?

-Miss Nicole's murderer had used Peggy's car on other occasions.

That's why he knew exactly where the burglar alarm was hidden.

-Can I go now? -And me?

-No. You both stay, too.

-But that's ridiculous. I've got an alibi.

I -- The Marquis has confirmed it.

-It's true. We were together.

-Oh, don't worry. I haven't forgotten it.

You both were at his house till 11:00

while Miss Nicole was murdered at 10:00.

-So what do you want with us? -Well...

when I called Miss Peggy to say that I had found her car,

it was about 11:30.

About 15 minutes later, I was at her apartment.

She wasn't there, and her apartment had been ransacked.

Someone could have killed her and hidden her body

in the meantime.

And as far as that goes, gentlemen,

your alibi isn't really worth much.

-Okay, that's German actor Thomas Reiner

as Inspector Silvestri interrogating all the men.

And of course, all the men look guilty

because they all have secrets,

and also because Bava does those Sergio Leone style

extreme close ups of their nervous faces.

This movie was mostly financed by West German investors,

and they were apparently expecting it to be

a traditional crime picture

in the style of the British mystery writer Edgar Wallace,

who was extremely popular in Germany.

There were about five Edgar Wallace movies

released every year in Germany.

They were called Krimis,

and the reason I mention it

is that Edgar Wallace had written a novel

in 1930 called "Whiteface,"

that became a giallo book release in 1933.

Um, you know,

most crime thrillers became gialli at one time or another,

but "Whiteface" was rereleased by Mondadori in 1963,

right when the script was being written

for "Blood and Black Lace"

and "Whiteface" has a masked gunman who looks like,

you guessed it, the killer in this movie.

My point being, the Italians steal

everything from everywhere.

So the topic in this break is we're at 38 to 42.

Team Bava is ahead in the Battle for the Black Glove.

And the topic is law enforcement.

giallo films are famous for featuring clueless cops,

stern cops, but never corrupt cops.

Which is strange because they do have a lot

of corrupt cops in Italy.

So, Troy, you're up for Team Bava.

Tell me about Thomas Reiner and the cops in Bava films.

-Well, I think the edge that Bava has over Argento

when it comes to the police in his films

is that the police really don't have much

of a presence in general.

So I think that's kind of a plus.

In this particular film,

because we're dealing with a movie that,

yes, it has the West German financing involved.

It ties it in with the Krimi films,

which is not a consistency, by the way.

It's, you know, crime thriller films based on Edgar Wallace.

Um, they wanted to have that kind of police presence in it.

And so Thomas Reiner makes sense.

He's a German actor. He represents that part of it.

You know, honestly, when it comes to comparing him

with, uh, Enrico Maria Salerno

"The Bird with the Crystal Plumage,"

Enrico Maria Salerno makes a better impression.

It has to be said he's a very charismatic actor

and he makes for very likable character, I think,

as much as a cop can be likable in a film.

Um, but in terms of this particular movie,

he is kind of this plodding, emotionless,

but also very judgy character.

Um, kind of, you know, implying along the line that,

well, they, you know, they brought it on themselves

because they lived this kind of lifestyle

and everything else, uh, which is sometimes mistaken

as kind of the director's point of view, which it isn't.

I don't think that's true.

Okay.

So you think the West Germans said,

"You need a couple of German actors.

We want you to use a couple of German actors in this movie."

And they said, "Okay, well, you can be the cop."

-It 's the part nobody wanted.

-Alright, Claire, you're due for a rebuttal.

Alright.

Is your cop better than Troy's cop?

-Well, first, I really need to --

to address, like, an elephant in the room here.

We're all thinking when we look at Inspector Silvestri,

Liam Neeson in "The Naked Gun," right?

Like, every minute that he's on,

he's hilarious.

He doesn't even have to do jokes.

I find him totally hilarious, but.

So, in a sense,

Inspector Silvestri is a very good giallo cop.

Specifically because he --

he becomes so totally irrelevant.

-Yeah.

-Um, which is great and very funny.

But the problem is that he's in way too much of the movie.

So quite a few of these scenes are these long, dry,

you know, it's like something out of "Dragnet" and,

um, it's too much, actually.

And it's way too much for a movie --

The really strange thing about "Blood and Black Lace"

is there's 50,000 people in it and no protagonist.

There's like, no one to latch on to.

There's no hero of this movie.

There certainly is no reluctant detective.

Morosini is really great because he understands that

what he's got to do is weaponize Sam Dalmas.

He just winds him up and lets him go.

And then we get the movie we're expecting to see

and the case gets solved.

-And Morosini's -- Morosini's mustache

just makes an incredible impression.

It's something -- His whole look with the -- with the fedora,

he does a great job at feeling like

he's coming out of another movie, an older film,

a more classical noir,

and I think does a better job at clashing

with kind of the evolving modern aesthetic and society

that is in Argento's giallo films.

So I really like his kind of weird presence

and how it hangs over the protagonist.

-The saving grace with Silvestri's scenes,

which I agree, they're the least interesting part of the film,

but it's how Bava shoots them,

so, you know, he's able to take a bland,

dull sequence and always find an interesting angle,

interesting composition, good lighting, and make it work.

Um, whereas the a --

A lot of police investigation scenes in these movies,

they tend to be the weak part.

-What do you think, Lars?

-I mean, I admire the fact

that you guys are such big fans of cops,

and your support of cops is truly inspiring.

But I do, I really do agree with Troy's point that,

like, cops are best when they have the least amount

to do in a film,

and I think he kind of comes in and he's a bit of a curtain,

you know, bringer down curtain raiser.

Um, you couldn't just have,

like, wall to wall kills and action in the movie.

So you have to have something that comes through

and is a palate cleanser.

And that's what the boring cop is in this,

as in a lot of giallos actually, is kind of a palate cleanser,

which kind of helps us move from place to place.

But you guys love cops, I appreciate that.

Um, for me, I am fine with the cop just being a curtain raiser.

-He has to fall back on jokes. -Okay.

-To get the points. -It's pathetic. It's really sad.

-I'm into the crazy idea that we're doing

an entertainment show or something on your network.

-Alright, I'm gonna have to say for cop sequences,

Argento gets the nod because bring in the perverts.

That guy is just so much more interesting

than Inspector Silvestri,

even if you're trying to show cluelessness in the copdom.

Out of the ten, I'm gonna give a seven to Argento

and three to Bava on cops,

because I think Bava was just totally uninterested in cops,

whether they were good or bad or whatever.

They were just cops.

So that brings it to 45-45 and, um...

-Ooh!

-And now we're going to go back to the movie.

But I would like to put in a word for Denmark,

because I love Denmark.

And out of those German Krimi based on Edgar Wallace novels,

32 of them were actually made by a Danish film company

called Rialto that had been formed in Copenhagen in 1897.

Constantin Philipsen, the founder,

was one of the earliest European filmmakers.

And it's kind of strange because after World War II,

the Danes didn't really like the Germans.

So if you go to the Resistance Museum in Copenhagen,

you'll see just how much they despised the Germans.

So the idea of a Danish capitalist dominating

the popular culture in Germany

in the post-war years is kind of ironic.

And that's it. We're at 45-45.

We're going to go right down to the wire.

And now we return to the Mario Bava classic

"Blood and Black Lace,"

which was released in Italy under the title

"Six Women for the Murderer."

Roll the movie.

Troy, do you have Italian, Troy?

Does anybody here have Italian?

-Just say it in Italian?

-Can you say "Six Women for the Murderer" in Italian?

-I can do it. I don't know if it's very good.

-But I can -- -Try it.

-"Sei donne per l'assassino."

-I appreciate the fact that you do not use

Italian titles in your book.

Some of -- Some of the hardcore giallo people

will only use the long Italian titles,

and we end up having to use Google Translate

'cause we don't know what movie they're talking about.

-Right.

9:00.

-Why must we sit in the dark?

As if we weren't scared enough already...

-Do what you want, but please try to keep calm.

-How are we supposed to keep calm?

Doesn't what's happening bother you?

-I'm frightened too.

Don't think I'm not.

But getting hysterical doesn't help.

-If only the men would come back.

We're all women left alone.

-Hello?

Oh, Mr. Morlan, at last. What happened?

What?

But...

But how can they?

I mean...

I mean, on what grounds?

I see.

Alright.

Alright.

Of course.

Alright, don't worry.

Goodbye.

They are holding all five of them.

-But why?

-The police obviously think one of them is the murderer.

-I thought so.

-Madam...

please, can we go? -Oh.

Oh, yes, yes. Go.

-Goodbye.

Goodnight. -Goodnight, madam.

-How I envy them. They live together.

At least they keep each other company.

-I must go, madam.

-Alright.

-Wait. Listen, why don't you come home and sleep with me?

-What? I live a few yards from here,

and you want me to come out into the countryside?

-Then I could come and stay at your place?

-No, I'm sorry, but I'd rather be alone.

Anyway, you'd be even more afraid at my house.

-But aren't you afraid?

Isabella and Peggy live with you.

Isabella has been killed, and Peggy...

-Yes, I know.

But I don't think anything would happen tonight.

All the men are under arrest.

And I'm sure the murderer is one of them.

Goodbye, madam. -Goodnight.

-Madam, I'm not going home.

I'll sleep here. -No, you won't, dear.

You're going home just like the others.

-I'm all alone.

I live out in the country, not here in town.

-Now, Greta, listen to me.

Tomorrow we have a very hard day ahead of us.

The show must go on, you know. Now, look.

Isabella and Nicole were mixed up in some ugly business

that has nothing to do with the rest of us,

so we have nothing to be afraid of.

Do you understand? Go now.

Don't worry.

-Thank you. Goodnight, madam. -Goodnight.

-Goodnight.

Be careful.

-Good evening, miss. The marquis rang to say

he'd be detained in town by an engagement.

-I know. I'll dine alone.

-Immediately, miss.

Hello? Hello?!

-Your tea, miss.

-Just a moment, please!

Come in.

It's alright, Charles. I'll take care of the rest.

-Yes, ma'am.

-So the beautiful but dead Greta is played by Lea Lander.

She uses a different name in the credits,

who was a German model,

and the reason her character name is Greta

is that she was famous among Italian directors

for bearing a striking resemblance to Greta Garbo.

She actually moved to Italy just to do this movie

after studying acting in Munich for five years.

So one thing you notice about this movie

is that there's never really any grieving when somebody dies.

There's hardly even any sadness.

Um, Bava has been accused of cynicism, sadism,

and so has Argento for that matter.

So let's make that the next topic.

Are these guys sadists?

Is sadism part of the giallo list of tropes,

and is sadism a good thing in a giallo?

And if so, who's the better sadist?

Bava or Argento?

So, Sam, you're up, speaking for Team Argento.

-Well, I don't know if cynicism and sadism are the same thing.

-Well it's not, no.

-I think they are cynical in the way

that the societies are functioning

within the movies themselves.

In "Blood and Black Lace,"

No one's really friends,

and everyone's trying to hide something.

So the second someone dies, they think,

what is this going to reveal about me?

So everyone's concerned about themselves.

In Crystal Plumage, Sam Dalmas is not trying to solve it

because he's out for the good of his heart.

He's -- He has main character syndrome.

He's like this is now about me.

I'm just obsessed with myself

and want to continue trying to solve this case.

Um, in in respect to sadism,

I think it's essential

because the -- the murders have to hurt in order

to invest us in their cause, and we have to feel the pain.

We have to feel scared for the characters and we do.

I think both are something, you know, it's hard.

I mean, I'm Team Argento, but this stuff's got to hurt

and they both do a great job of making it so.

-They don't seem to have families.

No one has families.

We're never concerned about any of the model's siblings

or parents or...

-Okay, Lars, you're next in line for rebuttal.

Is your guy more heartless than the other guy?

-Well, I think Bava's making --

"Bird with the Crystal Plumage" is more realistic

than "Blood and Black Lace"

"Blood and Black Lace" is a diorama.

You know, it's a pageant in a lot of ways.

It is, um, uh, it's like a View-Master slide

where we're seeing this, you know,

this very sort of beautiful sort of 3D world.

And what Bava's really doing is he's putting sex and violence

together in the same package.

Sex and violence in every shot.

So it's a bargain in a way that, um, in a way that

"Bird with the Crystal Plumage" is not so much a bargain

because in "Bird with the Crystal Plumage,"

you get a little sex, although not much sex, honestly,

uh, and then you get a little violence,

and then maybe you get a little hint of possible sex,

and then you get a little violence.

Uh, Bava's really giving you sex and violence

all nutritiously put together

in the same bite every time, every single time.

And I think that's really the key to --

to what we might call sadism in this film.

Sex and violence on the same fork.

-But you do get it pretty explicitly in Plumage

when they're in bed together.

And his mind keeps going to this.

And, you know, at the end of that scene,

they're smiling and cuddling in bed

like it would seem as if the memory got him going a bit.

So I think the relationship is pretty clear.

-I get the impression between Suzy Kendall and Tony Musante

that their -- that their sex is not working.

It's not very satisfactory.

I mean, certainly I don't feel the chemistry between the two,

but also just get the feeling that, like, they're not --

they're cuddling a little bit,

but he's not able to do the deed because of his...

-He's got to solve this case.

-You've got to solve the case before you can, you know.

-Yeah, I mean, Musante is like both creatively

and sexually blocked until he gets stimulated

by this horrific murder of this woman

in this white catsuit rolling around on the ground.

Um, the thing is that in --

in practically all Argento movies,

sex is sort of like this impossibility.

There's always this coldness.

Any of the ostensible couples

are always at each other's throats,

or not quite connecting or sort of running away from each other.

You know, like the most intimate anybody ever is,

I think in any Argento movie probably is in "Deep Red."

And we all know why it would be

that Daria Nicolodi is the recipient of just like --

like just the meagerest amount of warmth

finally gets squeezed out of one of these movies,

but they're always fighting each other.

It's like a Tom and Jerry relationship, almost.

And then, um, there's like one scene where you kind of see that

they're putting their clothes back on, but maybe.

Maybe not. Who really knows?

It's not very intimate,

but I think Argento's world is a world

where love is sort of impossible.

Intimacy is dangerous.

It may be hard to even conceive of,

and the catharsis of violence

is so much more satisfying and available.

-Well, and that's the way with Argento.

"Opera" was kind of his movie about AIDS in that sense,

because it came out during the height

of the AIDS sort of epidemic, it was going on.

-Are we grieving for anybody in this movie?

-In this movie, honestly. Not particularly.

I don't think -- I think Bava has always been very much

a non-judgmental moralist in the sense that

he's not interested in passing judgment over the characters,

just likes to kind of set them against each other

and see who -- who does what to whom.

-We're rooting for the next kill

to be even better than the previous kill.

-Okay, that's what I thought. Which is cynical.

Alright. Alright.

And this time, as I total up the points,

I'm going to add that Lea Lander, who played Greta,

was also in Bava's 1974 film "Rabid Dogs,"

which was unfinished at the time of Bava's death.

But she loved Bava so much that she obtained the rights to it

and helped to score it and edit it and get it released.

And she really pushed Bava's son

Lamberto Bava to help her with it.

And all the cuts of "Rabid Dogs" that exist today

owe a debt to her efforts.

Alright, I'm going to say who has the coldest characters

in these giallo films?

I'm going to say that was another tie round.

So that's, uh, that's going to be 50-50.

-That's a controversial call right there.

-Huh? -That's controversial.

-Is that a controversial call?

-Yeah. Yeah, it is, it is, it is.

-I think they both had very cold --

-No it's controversial.

- Okay. - Take our word for it.

It's controversial.

-So in the movie we're watching,

all the men are in jail and yet another model gets killed.

So the puzzle gets more and more complex,

which all good giallo films should be.

Roll the flick.

One thing I do not like about this movie

is that all the male voices are dubbed by one guy, all of them.

And I mean, he's good. He makes them different.

And he's a famous dubbing artist, Paul Frees.

But, um, wouldn't you like to hear

Cameron Mitchell's real voice in this movie?

-Yeah, of course. -Paul Frees.

I think he worked for Disney.

-Oh, he didn't just work for Disney.

He's the voice of the Haunted Mansion in Disneyland.

And -- -He's the Haunted Mansion?

-Yes, and he narrated "Doctor Phibes Rises Again"

and "War of the Worlds."

-I know he did Francis the talking mule.

-Yeah and Morocco Mole.

-Who's Morocco Mole?

I don't know Morocco Mole.

-Do you guys really not know that?

He is the sidekick of Secret Squirrel.

Obviously. -Sorry.

-I know he's the Pillsbury Doughboy also.

-And he narrated "The Shaggy Dog."

-He was everywhere. -Yes.

Maybe that's what made him such a good narc.

He was also a narc.

-What? He was a narc?

-Yeah. He died in 1986.

But it was revealed later he was an undercover agent

for the Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs

throughout the 1960s.

-Wow, and that was a huge time for drugs.

-And that was a huge time for drugs in Hollywood, so.

-Morocco Mole would not approve.

-Look at how the murderer tortured her.

He must have used a red-hot poker.

He must have been a madman. -Or a sex maniac

and homicidal fury. -Against beautiful women.

-Yes.

Perhaps the sight of beauty

makes him lose control of himself and kill.

We'll have to start all over again.

-Excuse me, sir, if you want to see the footprints

we found in the garden, we're ready now.

-Let's look at those footprints. -The killer drove up to here.

The footprints show that he started here,

got out, and walked up the embankment to the farm.

They match the footprints we found at Morlan's villa.

-Are you sure? -Absolutely.

We have the proof in the plaster cast.

-I could have sworn that the murderer

was one of the five suspects we have.

-Do we have to let them go? -Of course.

This time they've got a really foolproof alibi.

I gave it to them.

-Morell, Richard. -That's me.

-You want to check it? -Of course, I'll check it.

-Max Morlan.

-Yes? Come in.

-Mr. Morlan, I would like to speak to you for a moment.

-Yes, darling. Come in.

-Mr. Morlan, I'm a calm person.

I'm not nervous.

But the thought that a sex maniac

is prowling around your fashion house?

Well...I don't like it.

I'd like to take a short holiday.

I have already booked a flight to Paris for tomorrow.

-To Paris? Very well, Tilde. -Thank you.

-By the way...uh, you still live with the Countess?

-Yes. Why? -Oh, nothing.

Except, uh, a short while ago, while the count was alive,

I visited there frequently.

Lovely place.

You know, from the terrace you can see all of Rome.

-Yes. I'd rather see the roofs of Paris at the moment.

-I understand. Have a nice time. Bye-bye.

-Goodbye.

-I burnt Peggy's clothes.

There's nothing left to show that she was here.

Then I had to do something else.

I had to get her out of here to give you an alibi.

And then I...killed Greta.

-Perfect.

-Perfectly awful.

I don't know how I did it.

As if it wasn't bad enough to find Isabella in the wardrobe...

I nearly fainted.

-I wanted to tell you about it, but I couldn't.

By the way, how did you manage to carry Peggy to Morell's farm?

-Well, I -- I didn't.

I... somehow got her into the car...

and Greta did the rest.

-Why did you pick on Greta?

-Well...

she was alone in the house, that's why.

-Well done.

The police think it's the work of a sex maniac.

-First. Second. Third. Fourth.

Stop it!

Oh!

Oh! Oh, darling.

Darling, what's the matter? Hmm?

Kiss me.

What's the matter, darling?

-What a mess.

All because of that idiot, that witch Isabella...

the blackmail... money she wanted.

-Money. Money. Too much money.

She should have realized when she found out about...

that my husband's death wasn't an accident.

That it was dangerous and unwise to ask for that money.

But no, no, no.

The more that we would give her the more she wanted.

She asked for it. She did.

-She was on top of us.

Too hard, my darling. She squeezed too hard.

-Mhm. And the diary.

That damn diary!

If it hadn't been for that damn diary...

Ah, it is done now

and we have nothing to worry about, my darling.

Nothing to worry about.

-No, you're wrong. You're wrong!

We'll never have any peace...

until we've given the police their murderer.

-Peace? Ha, ha, ha.

-Chris, listen to me.

We'll never get away with it

unless they find the maniac they're looking for.

Never.

Until they do, they'll keep their eye on us.

You must remember all the victims worked for us.

But while they have no evidence against us,

the whole thing has blown sky high.

The press, the scandal, the salon being closed down.

We've got to find a way out.

-What are we going to do?

Oh.

I know, darling.

We're going to fly to the moon.

-We've got to act again one more time.

You've got to do it.

-Oh, no. -Yes.

I'm still being shadowed.

Now don't worry, darling, we'll find an alibi for you.

Now don't worry.

-Oh, no, Max, no.

You can't ask me to do a thing like that.

I can't do it. I can't do it, you know!

-You've done it before.

-I've done it before.

I've done it before, but that was different, you know?

Because you were in danger, I had to do it...

do it because unless I hadn't done it,

everything would have been lost forever.

Oh, only my love for you gave me the strength.

But it was horrible.

Horrible!

-Listen to me, you little idiot.

Listen.

There's more danger now than even before.

More!

If you don't listen to me, everything...

this horrible nightmare...

everything...

useless.

Useless!

-Wow.

You know, when you're watching the movie for the first time,

this would seem to be the reveal, the climax.

But Marcello Fondato, the writer is not content with that,

so he's going to twist it some more.

Fondato had already written "Black Sabbath"

for Mario Bava in 1963.

He was a heavyweight in all genres.

He would later go on to his own directing career,

mostly doing comedies,

but he was considered one of the top craftsmen in Rome

when it came to scenarios.

He really didn't get much credit because Bava

was more a painter than a storyteller,

and so the plotting gets short shrift.

So this will be the last round

of the Battle for the Black Glove.

Prior to the real conclusion of "Blood and Black Lace,"

and I want to make sure that we've covered everything.

Have we talked about how Bava

is in love with the zoom and the slow pan.

I don't think we have, and how he couldn't afford a dolly,

so he mounted a camera on a child's wagon.

Um, we did the gloved killer,

the somber but ineffective detective,

all the dead women in fancy bras,

the fashion house disguising aristocratic decay,

the jazz score, the ruination of beauty.

So let's talk about motives for murder.

We now have two killers, and they both have motives.

How important is the murder motive for Bava or for Argento

when they set out to do their beautiful set pieces of death?

And you're up, Lars, representing Team Bava.

-I think for Bava it's so important that he actually

does have motives that are based on real things.

Sex, money, pride, status,

these are -- these are real reasons people kill.

I think in a lot of Argento movies,

what you end up with are motives

that are sort of based on a dilettantish

sort of understanding of psychoanalysis.

Very much kind of, uh,

the kind of person who would read, like,

an article in The New Yorker

or something and say like,

"Well, people probably kill for this reason."

Whereas I think what we have Bava doing

is taking it down to, again, Sam, if you don't mind,

street level, as you said earlier.

Uh, is that Bava is really concentrating on the elemental,

uh, things that make us kill and in fact, make us live.

Uh, and Argento is kind of locked in his world

of being kind of, Oh, let's be sort of tourists

through what we think of as the deep recesses

of the psychoanalytical mind,

as we understand it, based on a few, uh, Life magazine articles.

-Okay. And, Sam, it's your turn to represent Team Argento.

-Well, I think you got these Bava banana heads,

and they say something like "elemental."

And what they really mean is old hat.

-Name calling, wow. -They're stuck in the classical.

They're stuck in the old fashioned.

We're talking greed and fidelity, betrayal.

And we've seen a million stories like that.

And Argento likes to play around in our traumas

and our kinks and our psychology.

And maybe it's a little surface level,

but it provides a lot more interesting motive than just,

uh, "Ooh, I hope I get my wife's money."

-Alright, now everyone can join in on motive.

-I mean, if you believe bullshit,

then that sounds really good, but I --

I don't agree with that at all.

-I think, as Lars was saying, you know,

we're getting into the real sort of nitty gritty

of the -- of the human psyche,

the things that really motivate us.

-But when in doubt, by all means throw the word trauma around.

-Well, trauma, I mean, it sounds nice.

It sounds very artsy and sounds very, you know,

sort of upper crust.

Um, but no, I think ultimately breaking it down to money, sex,

you know, desire for status and wealth,

those are things that actually they have a lot more currency,

I think, as opposed to this kind of pop psychology.

If you like your Freud, that's fine, but, you know, whatever.

-It just, uh, it has a short shelf life is the problem,

is this kind of pop psychology stuff.

There's going to be different understandings

about these psychological dynamics,

but it's a constant pride, sex, money, status.

These are the kinds of things that Bava's working in.

And that's why his work as a serious artist, uh, will be --

will go down to the wire 100 years from now.

100 years from now,

people will still be watching Bava films

while Argento is just forgotten.

-I mean, I think it's interesting that you called

setting the tone for the next decade of giallo

a short shelf life.

-Yeah, and speaking of dilettantish understandings,

since when is the giallo a slice-of-life drama

It's not supposed to be realistic.

We're not doing "Serpico" here.

It's abstract. It is arty. It comes from the gut.

It's like an abstract expression of this kind of cultural rage

that was a product of that exact time.

It certainly --

I think if you told anyone

that you were trying to associate realism

with the giallo subgenre,

you'd be laughed out of the room.

-Well, we are discussing the deeply realistic

"Blood and Black Lace" right now.

So, I mean, I'm not trying to say that realism is the key,

but I am saying that actual motivations,

even in a stylistic and a highly stylized setting

are still important.

It's important for us to kind of understand

these motivations even when we are watching something

that's this deeply stylized.

And I have agreed.

I think that "Bird with the Crystal Plumage"

feels more realistic.

It's more mundane.

You know, it's more of the kinds of things

that actually happen to us in real life.

But who wants to go to the movies

and pay to see something like.

-I can look out the window. I too --

-You look out the window and have witnessed

a murder in an art gallery?

Yeah, I think we all --

At this point, I think we all have.

-Several, in fact.

-I thought that the giallo was all about abstraction

and absurdity and perversity

and something that, like, comes from the imagination

and shocks you and surprises you.

I feel uncomfortable with this thing

that Ernesto Gastaldi says,

you know all respect to him,

that the giallo is supposed to have this airtight,

believable conclusion.

This is the opposite of what practically every giallo fan

I've ever talked to has said.

I understand, you know,

he's coming from this background.

He's an Italian.

He's connected to that literary tradition.

But I think that for most modern viewers,

the giallo is neither airtight nor realistic.

-You don't care -- -I don't think it should be.

-You don't care about the puzzle.

You don't care if the puzzle makes sense.

-It can be puzzling.

But I don't think it should make as much sense as,

like, a Agatha Christie drawing room mystery.

-No. -But it should be a machine.

Fulci called giallo plots mechanical, and it is a machine.

And if the machine just kind of just sort of spins

out at the end and just sort of peters out,

that's a really unsatisfying suspense machine.

Whereas if it actually does sort of lock up,

the motivations make sense.

The -- The -- Actually the plot in this,

if you look at it, you talk about sex, money, status,

all of these things lock in

when we find out the the killing situation.

-But that doesn't make it giallo .

-"Money, Cash, Hoes," as the song goes.

-I'm sorry. -A lot of different genres

have that sort of,

"Oh, the pieces should fit together."

-Yeah. -What makes it a giallo ,

I think if the motivations are too mundane,

it risks staying in the realm of traditional detective fiction.

And if they're not perverse enough,

it becomes like a regular slasher movie.

-Look, not every giallo can be as airtight

and logical as Umberto Lenzi's "Eyeball."

I think we can agree with that. -And I don't want them to be.

I don't think that they should be.

-The masterpiece of realism in that particular case.

The motivation is perfect.

-So you prefer quirky people with psychoses?

-I think that's what's associated with the subgenre.

I do prefer it personally, but I also think that

that's what the giallo sort of means to most people.

-That's what it's about.

-I think seeing my own attack depicted in a painting

setting me off into a brain-breaking killing spree,

it's just much more fun.

-You have a very strange idea of fun.

-Alright. -That's for damn sure.

-And we're also talking about the difference between modern --

modern society and 1963 society, aren't we?

But I'm going to do the totals now and point out

that "Blood and Black Lace"

was a box office bomb when it came out.

It was not even in the top 100 films for Italy

in the year 1964, made less than $200,000.

But man, that was, uh...

I think the two teams in this, in this discussion,

were talking about two different things.

-Um, I think what was right for Bava

may have not been right for Argento

because of the time difference, because of the six year,

the six-year change in the culture.

So I'm going to call that a tie, I think.

-Oh, come now! -No.

Well, I tend to -- I tend to side with Argento,

to tell you the truth,

on it being a more interesting way to account for murder,

uh, and a more, you know, more cinematic way

for it to count for murder.

Um, but I think that, um,

Bava didn't live in a time where it was --

Um, I mean, we had not been through

the '60s hippie revolution at the --

at the time of Bava doing that movie.

So I'm sorry. I'm going to call it a tie.

So it's 55-55, but we still have one more.

-Do we still get paid?

-No. -What?!

-But now -- Now we go to the true reveal.

And, um, it starts with what was considered

the most shocking image in the whole movie.

So roll it.

Ubaldo, Ubaldo Terzano.

-Bless you. -Did these beautiful...

-What? What happened?

-He got a joke in there. -He did?

-Who did? -Don't worry about it.

-Alright.

Ubaldo Terzano did these beautiful death images.

He was the cinematographer,

but he went to his grave

refusing to talk about this movie.

Apparently, he and Bava had a falling out over something

while they were making this movie.

This would have been the fourth movie that Terzano worked on,

but it would be the last one that he worked on.

-It's sad actually.

-It's always sad when geniuses can't get along.

-I know. Is Terzano a genius?

-Well, I would say the colors, the richness of the images,

and for a lot of the movie, the camera is the killer.

So, yeah, Ubaldo Terzano was a character in the movie.

-True.

-Oddly enough, Bava was known for having non-screaming sets

because apparently most Italian movie sets feature

frequent screaming episodes of people screaming at each other.

-You don't mean the death screams?

-No, I just mean people screaming at each other.

Not in the movie, but apparently Bava didn't like screaming.

-That was very unItalian of him.

-Maybe Ubaldo was a screamer.

Maybe that's what happened. You know, who knows?

Are you -- Are you surprised to...

see me alive, Max, my love?

Sure.

Your plan was ingenious.

The shop awning...

broke my fall.

-Please...

-Silence!

I know what you plan to say,

that you didn't do it,

but I know you did.

I know you did, because you knew that I would be passing

by the ledge... if there was any danger.

Remember? Remember you told me to?

You told me to.

-Oh, please, you must listen to me. You must listen.

-Huh? Yes, yes.

You had an ingenious plan.

If the police found my body,

everything would have been solved.

Everything. And you would have been free.

Now I understand why we had to get married in secret...

in such a hurry.

You are so much in love.

So much in love, yes, but with my house,

the apartment, the salon, the money.

You loved everything I had.

Everything...

...but me. -Chris, listen to me.

You're wrong, my darling.

I want you.

I love you.

It's been a terrible shock for you, my darling.

It's terrible.

Christina, I love you.

To you, it was an accident. Trust me.

Very soon, my darling... we'll go away together.

Just the two of us, like we always planned.

Uh...

please...

I want...

I want Inspector...Sylvester.

- Argento! Argento! - Bava! Baba!

Agento! Let's go!

-I'm hearing more Bava. -Argento!

-I'm hearing more Bava than Argento.

-Bava, Bava! -Okay. Alright.

-It's just easier to chant Bava. -Oh, man, the crew --

The crew is in a frenzy.

-Great final sequence, though.

I mean, first, the most cynical kill,

then the drowning in the bathtub.

Then she's terrified by him.

Then he's terrified by her.

Then they trade words of love,

knowing that each one wants to kill the other.

Then the gunshots, then the death of him,

then the death of her on top of him,

and then the dangling red telephone shot

that ends the movie.

And as we wind up the Battle for the Black Glove,

I would like to make it a rule

that in your final comments on the film,

each person must say why you think Bava ended

with the dangling red telephone.

A lot has been written about the dangling red telephone.

Bava was asked about it and he said he didn't remember it.

He didn't remember doing it.

So we're about to decide once and for all

what the foundation film of the giallo genre is.

And to make it fair, we're going to give a full minute each.

Starting with you, Claire, you're next.

Why is Argento the founder of giallo?

And what's the meaning of the dangling red telephone?

-Uh, I'm going to answer that in reverse order.

-Okay.

-And I'm heavily riffing, but I think it's worth noting

that in fascist era Italian cinema,

there were these things called the white telephone movies,

which were like these really buttoned up,

tidy, hygienic, kind of upstairs, downstairs movies.

And Argento later would riff on this,

actually with, um, oh my God, I'm forgetting her name.

But that's because I'm an Argento person,

and actors are like furniture and cattle to me.

But in "Deep Red," there's all this telephone stuff

with this tremendous older actress,

and it's sort of like, um, like this weird,

ironic juxtaposition between the white telephone movies,

which are part of Italian cinematic heritage,

and something like "Deep Red," which is like the new, right?

And so I think that's kind of what's happening at the end of,

um, "Blood and Black Lace,"

you've got this scarlet telephone dangling

in the midst of carnage and despair,

and it sort of announces the new era of the giallo,

which I think is really defined by Argento's movie making.

I'm sorry. They made me.

-I forgive you.

-That was a lame whistle. Okay.

-I'm -- I'm anti-whistle, to be honest.

-Troy. -You guys can keep talking.

Same -- Same --

-Ooh! -Okay, good.

Troy, same question.

You of all people should have a dangling red phone explanation.

-Well, I think again, it goes back to what

we were talking about earlier with fascism.

You know, it's connecting back to something

that was specifically a fascist cinema, Italian tradition,

which was the white telephone movies.

They were these kind of upper crust,

um, you know, sort of high-gloss romantic comedies.

Um, obviously they weren't exported to the US.

They didn't have any appeal outside of Italy,

but they were very successful at the time.

And actually, one of the actors

who starred in a lot of those films was a future director,

Vittorio De Sica,

who would be one of the founders of neorealism.

So I think Bava is kind of turning that on its head.

He's referencing back to this period of time of fascist Italy.

Uh, this -- this long tradition of the white telephones,

which was specifically seen as kind of a status symbol.

You know, if you lived in a modern, you know,

palatial sort of villa or apartment,

you had the white telephone.

So here, he's having a little bit of a perverse joke on that.

And it's not the first time he did it either,

because it's very much a central prop

of the telephone segment of "Black Sabbath."

-So you're both saying this is some kind of inside joke

that no Non-Italians would ever understand?

-Pretty much. Yes.

-Okay, so fuck everybody else in the world.

-We're just gonna talk about the white telephones

and the red telephones?

-And I think it goes without saying

who is the creator of the giallo?

It's obviously Mario Bava.

-Okay, Sam, you're next.

-Uh, I think Bava is absolutely foundational

to the -- to the genre of giallo.

I think he -- he did something that would -- would pioneer.

But I think with -- with Plumage,

Argento did something that set a tone and a tenor

for largely the amount of giallo that follow.

A lot of those giallo or gialli are much more like Plumage

than they are "Blood and Black Lace"

in their nature and their procedural and their motive.

So I think it's possibly splitting the answer,

but I think in terms of what we think of as the giallo

and largely what followed, to me the answer is Argento.

-Lars, wind it up for us.

-Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know,

often an art form

or a subdivision of an art form like this

is characterized by a genius who's then --

who brings these things from the subconscious

and then brings it into the world that we exist in.

So Mozart was a genius.

Salieri was not.

Argento is Salieri.

I don't think there's any dispute here.

I don't think even our panelists would argue that.

-Oh, boy. -And then Bava is Mozart.

And I think we're all in agreement on this, right?

-Absolutely not. -I don't think so.

-And the red telephone, I think there's also a really

sort of important angle here.

So Jacques Tourneur, who made a lot of really wonderful films,

tended to sign his films with a cat.

You would have a cat in his films and a cat would show up,

and that was his artistic signature.

If he puts the cat in the film,

that means he's signing it.

It's a work of his.

And I think you have this with Bava,

with, uh, "I tre volti della paura"

a.k.a. "Black Sabbath,"

He has the red telephone sequence.

And I think that in this case, it's very much a throwback.

And this is Bava signing the film.

This is Mozart, a.k.a. Bava signing this masterpiece.

-I think we're overlooking something, though.

What's that?

-I just think that the phone is Bava's real way

of telling us that this movie is off the hook.

-Yeah. -Ooh!

Agreed? Agreed. -That's a point in our favor.

I feel like it might be.

-Now we're going to do last minute -- These are your last comments about why

your guy deserves the title of originator of the giallo,

meaning originator of what we see today,

as what we think of today as the giallos.

And the same order, Claire first.

-Well, I think that the populist answer simply is Argento.

I mean, for us, sort of like talking heads

to sit here in this room and like,

parse all this academic history and stuff.

You know, that's great. We can do this all day.

But if you ask the average horror fan,

what is a giallo they're going to start describing a movie

that sounds more like an Argento movie

than like a Bava movie without even getting into like,

which of these guys was more innovative

or more brilliant or something?

It's Argento's vision that lasted

and that spread the farthest.

-Okay. What's that vision?

What do you -- How do you describe that vision?

-We've been describing it all night.

Why are you doing this to me?

Where have you been?

-I'm tired. I'm going back to bed.

-Alright. -Troy.

-Well, I mean, it's not Bava's fault

that the public at large is ill informed.

So this idea that --

Look, if -- if you're looking at a giallo in terms of the story

and the psychology, yeah, sure.

You can throw it to Dario Argento, why not?

You know, he's the pampered, rich kid.

He's always had things easy. That's fine.

But Mario Bava was a filmmaker of the people.

He was somebody who worked

with very little in the way of resources,

made films that looked

absolutely luscious with no money.

Argento starts, after a certain point,

his budget starts to shrink and look what happens.

Movies go way downhill. He can't cut it.

So I think the fact that ultimately, um,

if we're hung up on motivation,

we're missing the point, which is that Bava

in this particular film, "Blood and Black Lace,"

he creates the murder set piece movie.

-And Claire, to use your framing,

it's like if you were to talk to any member of the general public

and say, what is a -- what is a giallo?

It's probably going to come down to it's a stylish,

colorful body count movie.

Uh, and we're looking at two movies here,

both of which are stylish, colorful body count movies.

But which one is more stylish, more body count, more colorful.

And I think if you look at those, certainly,

do we even need to continue this farce?

Certainly it's "Blood and Black Lace."

-I just still think that without that element

of like absurdity, perversity

and not just the the absurdity and perversity,

like within the psychology of the characters,

but within the viewers experience,

most people will tell you that a giallo is delirious and feverish

and doesn't make that much sense in the end,

and is full of twists.

And I think even you guys have already agreed tonight

that Argento's conclusion is vastly more absurd.

-You're making the argument that absurdity trumps realism.

-I have been making that argument and I will continue to.

-Are you new here?

Did you just tune in?

-You're saying that's what -- -Do you think that if I --

-You're saying that's what makes Argento great.

-I'm saying that that's what makes his movies

more identifiably or, like, urgently giallo-esque.

Because if it's just a stylish, nice-looking slasher movie,

then it's just a stylish, nice looking slasher movie.

-From Italy. -It has to be something --

-From Italy. -Right, from Italy.

Excuse me?

-What does that mean? -Okay.

-And listen, I think in terms of the argument here,

I don't want to argue about origination,

you know, origin, I think.

"The Girl Who Knew Too Much," "Blood and Black Lace,"

these are foundational pieces.

They helped declare what the giallo was.

But I think in terms of what we're talking about,

Argento sharpened it and I think helped set the tone

for what it would become, for what we largely think of it.

And for that I gotta go to Argento.

-Yeah! -He popularized it.

-But that's not the same thing as creating.

-I agree with you.

-But he's not saying popularizing.

He's talking about taking all the elements

that Bava certainly, like, brought to the surface

and putting them together

in the most identifiably giallo configuration.

-Crystallizing, maybe. -Oh, right, crystallizing.

I'm so sorry.

-You know, I think if there was anything primitive

or unsatisfying about "Blood and Black Lace"

that your arguments would carry the day.

But I think that because "Blood and Black Lace"

is such a fully realized piece of art,

even though it was neglected at the time,

that you guys are going to get two more points

than they get on the very fast round.

-Fair enough. That's fair, that's fair.

-Boo! -And the title goes --

The title goes to Team Bava!

- Bava! Bava! - We have decided.

Alright. So from now on.

-I want to throw things also.

-From now on, whenever anyone asks who originated the giallo,

we all know the answer.

It was Mario Bava because we proved it

scientifically tonight.

-I'm putting up the gloved fist!

We solved the mystery of the dangling red telephone.

It relates to the white telephone in Italian history.

Alright. And in the drive-in mailbag,

I'm going to ask questions of Team Bava.

Uh, so, uh, Lars, you've been a curator

of exploitation films and exploitation film screenings

longer than anybody in the business.

Is there such a thing as a forgotten movie,

a hidden gem that no one knows about?

-I find them all the time, and I really have to say,

it's almost as if the past is creating new work.

Like it's almost -- It's so spooky because everyone --

Like, I continue to find movies that are just never heard of,

never seen referenced.

And I've been out there, like, looking

and just new ones will enter into the stream

all the time that I've never heard of.

And I really started thinking the past is up to something.

-Really? Can you name one recently?

-"Hyperspace" by Earl Ornsby from North Carolina.

-An Earl Ornsby movie?

-An Earl Ornsby sci-fi movie. -Has Earl Ornsby pressed you?

-A Sci-fi comedy starring Chris Elliott.

-I might have to take your title back.

-No, no, no, no, Chris Elliott and Paula Poundstone.

-Earl Ornsby, the redneck

North Carolina amateur filmmaker?

-He's tired. He's tired. -Yeah, yeah.

-Okay. -I saw a great Earl Ornsby movie

with Chris Elliott and Paula Poundstone

playing serious roles.

Why those two in a sci-fi movie?

-You find it in a barn somewhere in North Carolina.

-I found -- Even better, on the internet.

-You found it on the internet? -I found it on the internet.

-Okay. Wow.

Tell people about those programs you do in Austin.

Now that the original temple of the cult movie,

the Alamo Drafthouse on sixth Street in Austin,

has been taken over by infidels non-film people.

-Well, Joe Rogan. Is that an infidel?

-Well, he's not a horror fan.

Alright. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

-Yeah, yeah. No. So Austin has, uh,

you know, against all our,

you know, we haven't been fighting hard enough

because Austin is now kind of the alt, you know,

manosphere, uh, alt-comedy capital of the world,

and nobody likes it.

We all hate it, but it will pass.

They'll all be going to, I predict, Nashville next.

-Okay, I think they're already there actually.

I was just there.

And, Troy, my question for you is I first saw

or heard one of your commentaries

when I was researching

"The Living Dead at Manchester Morgue,"

which we had on the show,

and I just naturally assumed you were British.

Maybe partly because you have a Yorkshire surname,

but you're from a -- you're from a small town

in central Pennsylvania.

So how did you get so deep into Euro-horror?

-It all goes back to Mario Bava once again.

Uh, as a kid growing up in the '80s,

I had occasion to see "Baron Blood"

when I was very little,

and from there I just sort of took an interest.

Um, Bava is my favorite filmmaker.

He's somebody that has inspired me

to write about movies, essentially.

Um, you know, getting into the European stuff,

getting into then,

you know, went from there to Argento to Fulci

to Jess Franco and all these different people.

And at this point,

I've written so many different books

and done so many commentaries on these films.

You know, it's just great that I've had an opportunity.

I'm very grateful and very appreciative

to have had an opportunity to talk about this stuff

that means something to me,

because coming from where I come from, let me assure you,

they don't know anything about Mario Bava where I come from.

-Mario Bava is not big in Johnstown, Pennsylvania?

-Only -- Only downtown on Thursday nights.

-Okay. And you have to tell us,

because of your extensive researches,

best Bava movie and best Argento movie.

You've written books on both men.

-Best and favorite are very different words,

but I'm going to go favorite.

I would say my favorite Mario Bava film

is "Lisa and the Devil."

Beautiful surrealist masterpiece of a film.

And the best Argento, and my favorite Argento,

to me is "Deep Red."

-Yeah, okay. Thanks, guys.

I know you worked really hard,

but you delivered on everything.

And, um, I wish I could have you all here every show

because it makes my job much easier,

plus, I can blame you on social media

for any weird opinions that emerge.

But that's it for the Battle for the Black Glove.

And that's it for me.

And that's it for Darcy the Mail Girl

reminding you that jellyfish have survived

for 650 million years despite not having brains.

And that fact gives hope to many people.

And the drive-in will never die.

Man in a cemetery is wailing over a grave.

-Okay?

-Guy goes up to him and he hears him moaning,

"Oh, why did you die?

Why did you have to die?"

The guy feels bad for him and says,

"I'm so sorry for your loss,

but I noticed from the headstone

that your friend died four years ago.

You must have really loved him."

The man says, "Oh, I never knew him at all.

But he was my wife's first husband."

-Yep, yep, yep. -Alright, alright, alright.

I'm gonna have to go again. I'm gonna have to go again.

Um...

Back in the Old West, there was a fierce battle

between cowboys and Native Americans.

And the Native Americans captured one of the cowboys

and brought him back to the village.

And the chief comes out to greet the prisoner,

and he says, "You must die in three days,

but you get one wish per day.

What is your first wish?"

And the cowboy says, "Can you bring my horse over?"

And they bring his horse.

And the cowboy whispers into the horse's ear,

and the horse runs off to the town

and comes back with a beautiful blonde.

And the cowboy takes the blonde into a tepee

and has sex with her.

So on the second day, the chief says,

"Okay, you must die in two days.

What's your second wish?"

And cowboy asks for his horse again.

He whispers in the horse's ear again,

and the horse runs off to town,

comes back with a voluptuous redhead,

and the cowboy takes the redhead into a teepee

and has sex with her.

And on the third day, the chief tells the cowboy,

"Well, you must die today.

So what's your third wish?"

And cowboy requests his horse again.

And the chief says, "This is crazy white man."

The cowboy grabs the horse by his ears

and he looks straight into the horse's eyes and he says,

"Now read my lips.

I said, bring posse!"

-No.

-You won. You won. -Okay.

-♪ We are drive-in mutants -♪ Drive-in mutants ♪

-♪ We are not like other people ♪

♪ We are sick -♪ Sick ♪

-♪ We are disgusting -♪ Disgusting ♪

-♪ We believe in, we believe in ♪

-♪ Blood ♪

♪ And breasts ♪

♪ And beasts ♪

-♪ Yeah, we believe in ♪

-♪ Blood ♪

♪ And breasts ♪

♪ And beasts ♪

-♪ If life had a vomit meter ♪

♪ We'd be off the scale -♪ Off the scale ♪

-♪ As long as one drive-in remains on the planet Earth ♪

♪ We will party like jungle animals ♪

♪ We will boogie till we puke ♪

-♪ Boogie till we puke ♪

-♪ The drive-in will never die ♪

♪ We will boogie till we puke ♪

-♪ Boogie till we puke ♪

-♪ The drive-in will never die ♪

-♪ We believe in ♪

♪ Blood ♪

♪ And breasts ♪

♪ And beasts ♪

-♪ We believe in ♪

-♪ Blood ♪

♪ And breasts ♪

♪ And beasts ♪

-♪ Yeah, we believe in ♪

-Made in Georgia.