Original subtitles

-♪ Hey, everybody, have you heard the news? ♪

♪ Joe Bob is back in town ♪

♪ He's over at the drive-in, hanging around ♪

♪ Watching crazy movies, so come on down ♪

♪ To Joe Bob's "Last Drive-In" show ♪

♪ Blood, beasties, boobies, and more ♪

♪ Joe Bob's "Last Drive-In" show ♪

♪ It's a spooky good time with monsters and ghosts ♪

♪ Crazy, kooky fun with the world's greatest host ♪

♪ Joe Bob's "Last Drive-In" show ♪

♪ It's gonna be legendary ♪

♪ Joe Bob's "Last Drive-In" show ♪

♪ It's gonna be very scary ♪

♪ Joe Bob's "Last Drive-In" show ♪

♪ Let's go ♪

-Tonight, this is a really strange episode

of "The Last Drive-In."

We have four very distinguished guests

and two very distinguished movies,

and we're gonna present them in a whole new way.

And I'm gonna set it up like this.

You know a surefire way to start a fight?

Hide your Wild Turkey?

-Yeah. Well, yeah.

But better than that, put two horror fanatics in the same room

and ask them any of the following questions.

-Oh, no. -What do you mean, "Oh, no?"

-Well, I see you got yourself a chart over there.

-Yes, Darcy, as a matter of fact,

I have thoroughly researched the top 10 reasons

that horror fans get into actual fistfights.

-Actual fistfights? -Yes.

-Okay. -Every horror fan

has a favorites list,

and the favorites list always indicates

what kind of horror they're passionate about.

And when you have a favorites list, it's just like music.

It opens you up for somebody to say,

"You like that kind of music?

I don't think I can know you anymore."

-Okay. That definitely happens.

-Alright, now, I want you to help me with this

'cause you've seen all these arguments

because of the places we go and the people that we talk to.

And in fact, I tried this out

at Midsummer Scream in Long Beach...

-Yeah. -...and it almost caused

fistfights on the convention floor.

-Did it? -Alright, Darcy the Mail Girl,

ladies and gentlemen, here to answer your questions,

field your emails, your DMs, read your TikToks, or whatever.

-I'll read your TikToks. -Get in touch with her

to screw with us at any time during the evening.

Okay, so, the first one is easy.

"Jaws is not a horror film."

All you have to do is say this, and you'll get flak.

This one is actually one of the most confusing things to me

because -- giant creature eating people?

I would think that's self-evidently horror,

but, yes, this is an actual controversy.

"What's your favorite horror film?"

"'Jaws.'"

"Okay, you're not a real horror fan."

You know? Alright.

So, that starts fistfights.

But there are other ways to get your face bashed in

by a horror hound.

Number 9 --

"Hereditary" and "Midsommar" -- that's my idea of real horror.

-Gross. -Yeah.

You're a snob.

That's how that all started. You're a snob.

Take your Harvard degree

and stick it in Freddy Krueger's furnace, man.

You know?

"Okay, so, what's your idea of real horror?"

"How about freakin' 'Street Trash,' dude?"

You know, we should actually have a debate sometime --

which is better, "Hereditary" or "Street Trash"?

-Oh, it's "Street Trash."

Debate over. Done.

-I think when I did this one in Long Beach,

the guy stood up and said, "I would like to say something

in defense of 'Mid-so-mmar.'"

I actually think our audience would be 50/50 on this one.

Or we could do -- we could do,

"What's the best child-abuse horror,

'The Babadook' or 'Bride of Chucky'?"

-"Bride of Chucky," but child abuse?

Okay. But we should actually start doing these.

-We are gonna start doing these.

Okay, horror face-bashing controversy number 8...

"The remake is better."

-True. -Need I elaborate?

-You know it's better? You admitted it.

I did not say it was better. I said it was almost as good.

So they spent $9.5 million to make a film

that was almost as good as the $60,000 original.

Come on, Darcy.

-I think you are retracting what you said,

but what difference does that make anyway?

-Well, for those of you just tuning in,

we're arguing here about "The Texas Chain Saw Massacre."

-The remake is better. -Okay, but let's switch titles

on this one, alright? -Okay.

-Rob Zombie's "Halloween"

is better than John Carpenter's "Halloween."

-There are some people that really think that.

I am not one of those. -Okay. Alright.

-In fact I would say remake fights

may be the most common way to break up friendships forever.

But let's move on to number 7.

Ah.

"You don't need all that gore to be scary."

-I know people who are like that for sure.

-"Blood and guts is not scary." -Mnh. Those are not my people.

-Or, you know, "I remember back in the day,

it was all about what was not seen that scared you."

True.

-We could refer to this as the yuck factor.

You know, some people don't want to see anything yucky.

So they'll praise movies like "The Ring."

"They didn't need any blood and gore for that."

Or "Insidious" or maybe "Poltergeist," you know?

"They didn't have any blood and gore in 'Poltergeist.'"

-I don't think that's making their point,

but there's room for all styles. -Okay.

Exactly. Non-issue. Okay.

Number 6.

Oh, my God.

Actually, I'm not sure about this one.

"I love found footage films."

Has anybody ever said that ever? -Yes.

-"I want every film to be found footage."

-I mean, there are definitely some

found footage fanatics out there.

-But it's mostly hated, right? Found footage is hated.

-I don't know if it's widely hated,

but it gets criticized for being lazy.

-Oh, yeah. "That filmmaker was too lazy

to make a real movie, so he did found footage."

-That, yes. -Okay.

Anyway, that's always a good fight topic.

Alright, number 5!

Oh.

"A slow burn always pays off better."

I know how you feel about this one.

-Fuck slow burns, man. -Yeah.

-I don't want that shit. -So, a movie like "The Shining"

that, you know, trades with just a feeling of dread as opposed

to non-stop kill scene set pieces like "Saw," you know?

-Well, I would say the original "Saw" wasn't necessarily

like that, but in general, give me "Saw"

over "The Shining," like, every time.

-We get a lot of slow-burn... -I said what I said.

-...flak for stuff that we show here.

Like, remember when we showed "The House of the Devil,"

you know, which has a very slow --

-Yeah, we should get flak for that shit.

-Well, I can go either way on that one

'cause I love "Hostel" and I think --

-I do, too. -That's a slow burn.

I think it goes like 45 minutes before that first kill.

-"Hostel" is the rare exception,

where the payoff is worth the build-up.

-And the build-up's fine. -Okay, well, that's what

a slow burn should do. Okay.

Moving on to number 4.

"Oh, that's just a cheap jump scare."

-Oh, Lordy.

-Okay, here's my quick defense of the jump scare.

When you're already scared or nervous or on edge,

you're walking through a dark room,

you're doing anything, really,

the slightest random thing will make you jump.

And so that's normally what a jump scare does.

It takes advantage of a situation that is already scary.

-Agreed. -Okay.

Number 3 on our horror fistfight list.

Whoa. -Whoops.

Almost got number 2... -Spoilers.

-...revealed there. Number 3 is "CGI sucks."

-That is a big one for sure. -Yeah.

Practical effects are always better.

You know, I'm not going to get into that

except to say there are certain things

that cannot be done in any way other than visual effects.

You can either use CGI

or just not have those things in your movie.

So, and I'm not sure I want to live in a world

without "Sharknado," you know?

So moving on quickly to numero two-o,

how is it possible?

Now, this is a timeline fight.

Well, how can she possibly be alive in part four?

Didn't she die in part three?

And why is his hand working in part three,

when his hand was damaged in part two?

And it doesn't matter how many times the filmmaker says,

"Well, I'm working from an alternate timeline

that starts one day after the original."

You know, there's still going to be people who are going to say,

hey, you're screwing with the reality of the story.

And, um, probably the worst one, I will admit this,

is "The Texas Chain Saw Massacre" franchise.

I mean, nine movies, six timelines, uh, madness.

But what is your feeling on timelines?

-Oh, timelines need to be respected.

David Gordon Green, I'm looking at you.

You can't just ignore seven movies of lore

to start your own shit. That's nonsense.

-On "Halloween?" -"Halloween."

Yeah, but they're not brother and sister anymore.

- Fuck that shit. - Okay.

I sort of agree with you on that one.

And finally, this is a biggie,

and this is the one we're going to deal with

in tonight's double feature.

Actually, this is the number one reason

horror fans get into fistfights.

No, that one is better. No, that one was first.

That's not the first one. That other one was first.

1906 there was one.

That's -- That's more influential.

This one is more influential than that one.

What's the first important horror flick, you know?

What's the best silent horror film?

What's the most influential silent horror film?

Is the Universal version better than the Hammer version?

Well, of course it is. You know?

These discussions are endless.

But tonight on "The Last Drive-In,"

we're going to settle one of those discussions for all time.

And we have picked one of the nerdiest arguments of them all,

and it's this.

What's the first giallo?

Giallo being, of course,

that strangest of genres,

the Italian mystery thriller movie made between the 1960s

and the 1990s, and to settle that issue for all time,

we have two candidates.

Was it Mario Bava's "Blood and Black Lace" in 1964,

or was it Dario Argento's

"The Bird with the Crystal Plumage" in 1970?

And to make sure we arrive at the correct conclusion,

we have the four smartest and most well-informed

horror authorities in the world here with us tonight.

And two of them are Team Bava,

and two of them are Team Argento.

And they're going to duke it out right here in this trailer park.

And Darcy, you'll be keeping score

so that there's no funny business.

And our result will be strictly scientific according

to who makes the best arguments,

as determined by myself, Darcy and the audience at large.

And we're calling it Battle for the Black Glove.

-Alright, this is going to be cool.

-Or it's going to be a complete failure.

We don't know which, but we'll see.

-Try to be positive. -Alright.

I'll be bringing out our contestants at the first break.

But first, I want to introduce our opening movie,

"The Bird with the Crystal Plumage."

It's the sensitive story of an American novelist

who witnesses an attempted murder at an art gallery

and becomes the target of a black-gloved killer

in the body count movie that launched Dario Argento's career.

Sure, we've seen it before,

but have we seen it with a title about a mythical creature

that has nothing to do with the plot?

I think not.

And those "Drive-In" totals are...

six dead bodies, three off camera dead bodies,

two breasts, one bloody glove,

one hit-and-run,

extended chase scene through a bus storage yard,

attempted meat-cleaver decapitation,

straight-razor slashing, POV window plunge,

neck-targeted karate chop, stalking, stabbing,

panty slicing, gratuitous "CSI: Italy,"

cosmic art sculpture fu.

"Drive-In" Academy Award nominations for Tony Musante

as the befuddled novelist for saying,

"I can hear him saying it now.

Go to Italy. It's a peaceful country.

Nothing ever happens there."

Enrico Maria Salerno as the inspector

for saying, "Bring in the perverts."

Suzy Kendall as the girlfriend

for saying, "It gives me the shivers."

Eva Renzi as the traumatized wife of the gallery owner

for saying, "It isn't right to trick the public."

And Dario Argento, the writer/director

for doing things the Italian drive-in way,

even though Italy doesn't have drive-ins.

Four stars.

Joe Bob says check it out.

-I feel like you laid it on pretty thick about those contestants.

-Yes, I did.

It's because it's the four smartest people in the world.

-Okay.

-They all wanted to be on our show,

four smartest people in the world.

-Do you maybe mean the four most well informed about horror?

-Yes, and that means they're the smartest people in the world.

-Okay. It feels a little extreme.

-No, it's not extreme, Darcy.

The four smartest people on the planet

will be debating the giallo question on this show,

beginning at the first break.

-Let's do it.

-Il Giorno, please.

Thanks.

Aha.

Ah. Usual garbage.

-Come on, Carlo. We'll be late.

-Relax. They will wait.

I forgot to tell you that the thing you wrote

has been a great success with the experts, you know?

-I'm glad they're happy.

Sam Dalmas, great hope of American literature,

now writing manuals on the preservation of rare birds.

-It'll be funny if I won a prize for it.

-How is Julia? -Oh, fine.

She's out of town on a modeling job.

-Ah.

-I think she'll be back tonight.

-How are things going? -Oh, very well.

Taking her back to the States with me, day after tomorrow.

-Really serious, eh? -Looks like it.

-Morning, Professor. -Morning.

-You know, the first thing I'm going to do when I get home

is to look up a friend of mine to return a favor.

I was going through a kind of bad period.

A little short on inspiration. "Go to Italy," he said,

waxing poetic.

"You need peace, tranquility. That's Italy.

Inspiration will come to you. Nothing ever happens in Italy."

May he roast in hell! -Ha, ha!

-So, I came. I believed him.

Toured the country. Saw all the monuments.

Then spaghetti, wine, the atmosphere.

Great. Only I'm dead broke.

I haven't written a line in two years.

Wouldn't even have the plane fare home

if you hadn't come along with this job.

Which you carried out beautifully.

-Here is your check, Mr. Dalmas.

-Hm.

-But, hey, Sam. Don't you want a copy?

-Who needs it? I have this.

- Hey, hey! - Open the door.

Hey, hey!

-How do I open the door?

-I can't get in.

How do I open the door?

Hang on. Just hang on!

Open the door.

Open the door!

Call the police!

I called the police.

-Her pulse is weak but it wouldn't appear to be serious. She hasn't lost too much blood.

Okay, get on with it.

-Yes, sir. Check for fingerprints.

-Okay.

-Good evening.

I'm Inspector Morosini.

Tell me about it, eh?

-What's that? -What happened?

I want to know everything you saw and heard. Everything.

-How is she? -Oh, she'll be all right.

Thanks to you. Oh, what's your name?

-Sam Dalmas. -Are you English?

-No, I'm an American. I was on my way home.

I was walking in front of the gallery and I saw these lights.

I looked up here and I saw these two figures struggling.

-Put her down carefully.

-Poor thing, she was... -Where were the police?

-Let me through. I'm the owner of the gallery.

Monica!

-See...

-Monica.

Monica.

What happened?

-She's in no state for questions.

I'd leave her alone. -Is it serious?

-No, no. It's nothing serious.

A flesh wound. -Come on now, come along.

-Let go of me! I'm Alberto Ranieri.

She's my wife.

-Excuse me.

-Monica, speak to me. What happened?

-Please, you're tiring her. -Monica, dear.

Who did it? Who? -We don't know.

I hope your wife may be able to tell us.

-Right, we'll go.

-What was she doing here in the gallery

at this time of night?

-Oh, um, she was going over the books.

I, um, I was supposed to pick her up.

-Mm-hmm.

-Monica, Monica!

-Go ahead.

-Come on now, stand back. Let the stretcher through.

-Poor girl.

-Stand back there, please. Stand back now.

-Right, that's it.

-Now, where were we, eh?

-There was something wrong with that scene.

Something odd.

I can't pin it down

but I have a feeling that something didn't fit.

-Well, think about it. Try to isolate it.

-I've tried. I can't pin it down.

Let's see if I can help.

You saw someone run out of this door.

-Yeah, but it was so dark under here.

The door was almost -- -Don't touch anything.

Try keeping your hands in your pockets.

It's the only way to avoid temptation.

It saves a lot of time and trouble.

-And on the mezzanine was noted a statue of a warrior,

bronze, on the wall,

and a sculpture resembling a branch of a petrified tree.

On the ground floor,

an irregular trail of blood stains

from the service door at the rear

to within 10 feet of the front window.

Apart from the blood, there is no other sign of a struggle.

You got that? -Right.

-Okay. -According to you,

she came down these stairs.

-Not according to me, she did.

-In all 39 features.

Now, we'll measure from the window to the stairs.

-Blood.

-Look, I've had it. I can't take anymore.

We've been through the whole damn thing six times.

Look, I've told you everything. Every detail.

I don't know that woman. I've never seen her before.

-Now look, let's start over again.

Maybe there's a detail you've forgotten.

Suppose we go back to the strange figure

you saw running away. Describe it.

-I told you it was dark.

I was too far away. It was nothing but a dark figure.

Look, I'm tired.

I'm leaving for the United States the day after tomorrow

and I got a million things to do.

-Really, have you made a reservation?

-Yes. -Mm-hmm.

Have you your passport on you? -Yeah.

-May I have a look at it a moment?

-Yes.

-Thank you.

-Hey. -Hey, what?

-My passport.

-Oh, we'll take care of it for a while.

-You're kidding. I can't move without it.

-We don't want you to.

You're too important to us as a witness.

You saw something which, though you can't recall it,

is, on your own admission, clearly vital.

And until this point is cleared up,

I can't allow you to leave.

-Hey now, look. I don't mind coming down here --

-What you may not know, Mr. Dalmas,

is that in this city during the past month

there have been three as yet unexplained murders.

The victim in each case was a woman.

Three crimes all committed

without any apparent motive whatsoever.

It seems very clear to me that there is a dangerous maniac

at large in this city.

But what makes the investigations

particularly difficult as far as we're concerned,

and it's for this reason that we require your cooperation,

is that I'm fairly certain this man is,

as far as his appearance goes,

quite sane.

In his daily life, he is completely normal.

Like anybody else. Even like you.

-Me? -Why, yes. You. Why not?

Let's suppose you are insane.

You entered the gallery and you attacked the woman.

Then when you tried to escape,

you were accidentally trapped between the glass doors.

-You're out of your mind.

You can't just grab a foreign citizen

and accuse him of murder.

-No one's accusing you.

-You're giving me the third degree.

It's illegal. I want to call my consulate right now.

-Go ahead.

Call anyone you want.

Call the President of the United States.

-A tough nut, eh?

-Ah, just...

-Here's a copy of Monti's report.

-Erm, TWA, I want to cancel a reservation.

Sam Dalmas.

Erm, number 112. New York, day after tomorrow.

Yeah, thank you.

-Look out behind!

Are you hurt or anything?

- Can I help you? - No, no, no.

Don't worry, I'm okay. Thank you.

-Well, that's the most enthusiastic welcome

I've ever had.

Hey, it's been a month now. -Mm.

Had a hard day at the office, dear?

No.

No, I just...

I just witnessed an attempted homicide.

Was given the third degree by the police.

Had my passport confiscated so now we can't leave.

And just now I my head nearly decapitated

by a meat cleaver.

You know, the usual.

-Sure, now you just tell me all about it.

-Funny thing is, it's the truth.

-In the beginning, darkness.

Until two faces of fear saw all the colors of the dark.

Dario Argento, Mario Bava,

two men casting a bloodstained shadow

as they force their fatal frames on the silver screen.

Let's get ready to giallo.

-Welcome to a night of Violence

as two of the giants of giallo paint the town deep red.

This is the "Battle for the Black Glove."

-And so I think we would all agree

that in the first few minutes of "The Bird

with the Crystal Plumage," we have quite a few

of the essential elements of the giallo.

We have an exotic location.

We have a foreigner trying to figure out the locals.

We have a beautiful setting,

namely that weird art gallery with the fishbowl doors.

And we have two attempted murders.

We have a black-gloved killer.

We have a skeptical but boring police detective.

And of course, we have beautiful women,

including Suzy Kendall as Julia,

the girlfriend and Eva Renzi as the injured victim.

Plus, the unconventional musical score

by the great Ennio Morricone and vivid,

lush cinematography by Vittorio Storaro,

who would go on to be a three-time Oscar winner.

But why should I be talking about it

when we have the four greatest giallo authorities in the world

waiting just off camera here?

So let's line them up for the "Battle for the Black Glove."

We're going to decide tonight.

Yeah, we are going to decide tonight

the question that has split apart horror fans for years,

and that is who is responsible for the giallo craze in Italy.

Was it Mario Bava or was it Dario Argento?

-Whoo! -So, going in alphabetical

order, please welcome Claire Donner.

-Yeah, Yeah, yeah!

-Troy Howarth.

Lars Nilsen.

And Sam Zimmerman.

Alright, Claire, I'm going to start with you.

You are the New York City director

of the Miskatonic Institute of Horror Studies.

You are an art historian.

You write extensively about horror media.

You list as your special areas of expertise,

and I love this gore, pornography and cannibalism.

And you write those extensive novel-length little booklets

that are included whenever Severin releases a new Blu-ray.

So please declare your loyalty.

-Bird is the word, Joe Bob.

-Team Argento? -Yes.

-Okay. -It is simply the first

cohesive, unique giallo film.

-I maybe... -Okay.

-Oh. -Save it for just

a minute, Claire.

I know, I know you're -- I know your Team Argento,

but I have to ask you, since you're --

since you're an expert in gore and cannibalism.

The turtle scene in "Cannibal Holocaust."

Yes or no? This is a big issue here.

-Yes or no? What kind -- That's not a question.

-The turtle scene. -What does that mean?

-Yes or no? -What am I...?

-Ruggero Deodato? -What am I answering?

-I'm not totally sure what the question is.

-The question is, should he have done the turtle scene?

-Oh, Jesus.

I mean, I don't think

you should vivisect a turtle.

-Okay. -I do think that the things

that go on in that movie are what make it what it is.

And we have to deal with this now.

You know, if I could get into a time machine

and go back and save the turtle, would I do that?

I don't really know.

-Wait. You don't know? -You just said it,

I'm an art historian,

and I can't interfere with our history.

Save the turtle.

-How about the woman impaled on a stick?

-I believe what has been said

about her complicatedly sitting on a pike

with like a bicycle seat

and something coming out of her mouth.

But like superstitiously, I think it's a dead body.

-But as an image?

-Astounding, indelible. -It's fine, it's fine, okay.

-Yeah. -I had to ask

because we get more complaints about the turtle than the woman.

-That makes sense.

-But I knew you would be Team Argento

if for no other reason than you're the world's

leading authority on the director, Michele Soavi,

who was mentored by Argento.

And, okay.

Next up we have Troy Howarth. -Whoo!

-And Troy currently holds the world record

for the number of commentary tracks produced

for European horror films.

He has authored at least 11 books,

at last count, including books on Mario Bava,

Dario Argento, Lucio Fulci, Klaus Kinski,

Paul Naschy, John Carpenter,

and three volumes just on giallo films.

All the way from Johnstown, Pennsylvania.

All I can say, Troy, is that you are monstrously

overqualified for this show.

But please --- please just declare your loyalty.

-Oh, Team Bava. Of course I'm saying.

-Of course, Bava. -Ooh.

-Okay, now, didn't you say at one point

that it was Bava films that brought you to horror

in the first place? -Yeah, I mean,

he's definitely to Euro horror in particular.

So yeah, definitely.

-That's what got you started on horror?

-Mm-hmm. -Alright.

This next panelist I've known for years

because he ran the weirder cult movie shows

for Alamo Drafthouse, and in fact,

he was the main curator for the original

"Weird Wednesday" at the original Alamo Drafthouse

in the '90s in Austin,

a time when they would sometimes take 35mm reels

out of film cans discovered in dusty warehouses

and just run them for free for audiences that then rediscovered

all these lost exploitation treasures

from the '60s, '70s, '80s.

Anyway, if you've ever been to any cult movie night

in an indie theater, it owes a debt

at some level to Lars Nilsen, who is at the present time --

-Whoo! -Yeah, at the present time,

Lars is the programming director for the Austin Film Society.

But more importantly,

he has seen more exploitation movies than any man alive

and could probably name every Argento and Bava

movie in chronological order while high on marijuana.

So welcome, Lars. -Thank you. Thank you.

-Please declare your loyalty.

-I'm going to -- I think I'm going to go

with Team Bava here. -Okay.

And didn't you say -- I want to mention your new book,

Warped -- "Warped and Faded" is the name of your new book,

which has some of the funniest and most trenchant

reviews of horror films in it,

as well as a history of "Weird Wednesday"

in the American Genre Film Archive in Austin.

And didn't you say at some point

that you wrote reviews in a style intended

to get the attention of people who were already high on weed?

-Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Which is you have to do when you're in Austin.

Okay. Alright.

And rounding out our illustrious foursome,

Sam Zimmerman, the curator for Shudder.

Sam is personally acquainted with filmmakers

and film distributors all over the world.

He is -- He's actually, Sam,

you are the first employee hired by Shudder

I think 10 years ago... -Day one.

...after studying film at the State University

of New York Purchase, which is known

for its film program,

and then you were working for Fangoria,

and Sam is the guy who finds movies for this show

as the head of programming

and increasingly produces and executive produces movies

that become Shudder Originals.

So welcome, Sam, declare your loyalty.

-It's crystal clear, Joe Bob. It's Argento.

-It has to be Argento, great. And somehow I knew that, too.

So we're going to get started with our,

uh, debate at the next break,

and I'll go over the rules

and we'll start arguing as only horror fans can argue.

But first, I want to get a quick one, two, three,

four of why everybody on the panels

thinks "The Bird with the Crystal Plumage" matters.

Claire, you go first.

-Well, as I've said,

and I will go on to prove, it is the first real giallo.

I can maybe be strong-armed into admitting

that Bava sort of developed most of the giallo ingredients,

but Argento really put them together.

Uh, that movie has influenced everybody,

from John Carpenter to Brian De Palma

to Pedro Almodóvar.

Um, and I think it really cleverly addresses

the actual force that caused the birth of the giallo

in a way that I hope I will prove later.

-Okay. -Yay!

Very good summary. Troy.

-Well, I'll just start by saying I disagree with that.

Of course -- -Wow. Already.

-It's just -- it simply is not true that it is the first.

However, it is an important film

because I think it can be proved fairly easily

it's the one that really popularized the trend.

If we didn't have "Bird with the Crystal Plumage,"

we wouldn't have had all these other movies with exotic titles,

animals in the titles, et cetera, et cetera

And it is the movie that brings in

the primal trauma elements,

the psychological dimension of the giallo.

So yeah, I mean, it's got that going for it,

but it's not the first.

-Okay. Lars. -Yeah.

I think anytime you've got a genre of anything,

it starts off with a genius creating it,

and then you're going to have popularizers.

So what you really have in this case

is Bava as a genius creating the giallo.

And then Argento comes along and he refines it.

He makes it a basic commodity,

basically kind of a supermarket commodity,

which he puts out there.

And it becomes a huge hit because it's so basic

that everyone of every intelligence level

can kind of understand it. -Wow.

-Oh. -Wow.

-Supermarket commodity.

Okay, Lars, that -- -That's serious.

-That phrase is gonna come back to haunt you.

Okay. Sam.

-Uh, I think it's foundational.

It's -- It may not be the first giallo,

but it is Argento's first giallo.

And by nature of that, it is the master of the genre,

one of the masters of Italian horror,

putting his stamp on the thriller

and helping to create the hallmarks and iconography

of what that genre is. Okay.

-And it has led to the best dressed team on the show.

Whoo!

-Okay, but was it the foundation film for the giallo?

We will know the answer later tonight.

We will have a winner. Back to the movie now.

Get ready for the "Battle of the Black Glove."

So roll the movie.

And one reason we're doing this is that at some point,

Dario Argento became annoyed

that Mario Bava does get so much attention

when people talk about the giallo.

And he said, "Actually, Riccardo Freda had more

influence on -- on the giallo than Bava did."

And apparently he didn't note that Riccardo Freda's,

two of Riccardo Freda's horror films

were finished by Mario Bava.

Frieda walked off the set, and two of them Bava completed.

Am I right? I'm right about that, right?

-You are right. -Alright.

We will not be expanding the debate

to include Riccardo Freda, okay?

-What are we even doing then? -Okay.

-Murder obsession notwithstanding.

-But extra points for anybody who works

"Theodora, the Slave Empress" into the discussion tonight.

That's a Riccardo Freda film. -Mm-hmm.

-Right, bring in the perverts.

Look at them carefully and see if you recognize anyone.

The murderer could have gone back to the gallery that night

to see if Mrs. Ranieri was dead.

And we can't rule out the possibility

that he is a pervert.

Aldo Sarti, age 42. Eight convictions.

Sandro Lorrani, age 35. Exhibitionist.

12 arrests.

Mario Zandri, age 66. Four convictions.

Giacomo Rossi, age 50.

Three convictions for corrupting the morals of minors.

Rupatelli Luigi, alias Ursula Andress...

-No, no. Petrini! -Yes, Inspector?

-What's this character doing here?

How many times do I have to tell you

Ursula Andress belongs with the transvestites,

not the perverts?

-I should hope so. -Thank you.

-Now, if you come with me, Dalmas.

I have something interesting to show you.

We have subjected this glove

to a thorough microscopic examination

and have managed to come up with a few interesting facts.

For example, the bloodstains

are of the same group as Monica Ranieri's.

We can deduce that the murderer was wearing it at the time.

See these grains? They're tobacco ash,

from which we can tell he smokes expensive cigars.

In fact, we can go further.

The traces of tobacco his fingers left on the glove

are characteristic of Havana cigars.

Now, look at this here.

It was our most exciting discovery.

Microscopic particles of a particular type of fiber

made only in England.

We found it inside.

-Well, that's a good start anyway.

Basically what it really means is this.

We now know with certainty

that he is a man who smokes cigars,

who dresses with elegance and who is above all left-handed.

This we've been able to deduce from the wear on the glove.

Our next move is to feed these facts

that our technicians discovered

and other relevant information straight into the computer

and get the result.

Have you done that yet? -Yes, sir. All ready.

-Good, then we'll have a look.

This is an outline of the man we are after,

reconstructed with an accuracy of plus or minus 10%.

In a moment will follow the first personal data.

Statistically speaking, the description could fit

approximately 150,000 inhabitants of this city.

Of those, most of the ones we feel are most likely

are already in jail.

-Well, what are you waiting for? -Ha.

You think it's easy to check the alibis of 150,000 people.

Look, I -- I've got nothing to go on.

It's only a hunch but I'm convinced

that you really did see the murderer's face that night.

-But I told you if there is one thing I'm convinced of --

-Concentrate, Mr. Dalmas, please.

Try to remember what you saw.

-No, it's no use.

I've run through it over and over again.

I can't get it out of my head

but I can't manage to pin it down either.

Monica Ranieri has left the hospital

and returned to her apartment.

The Via Bruxelles, number 35.

-Can I go now? -Mm-hmm.

-What floor? -Third.

-I'm really sorry, Mr. Dalmas, but my wife can't see anybody.

She's in bed under sedation at the moment.

You understand, after what she's been through.

What did you want to speak to her about?

-Oh, nothing much.

I -- I just wanted to talk to her about that evening.

You see, I'm convinced I saw something

that might lead to the attacker's capture.

I wanted to check

what I remember with what your wife remembers.

-My wife has already told the police

everything she knows on various occasions.

I can see no reason for subjecting her

to that ordeal again.

-I see.

May I ask you an irrelevant question?

-Certainly.

-How tall are you?

-6"1', I think. Why?

I... Nothing, just curious.

-Anything else? -No.

And...I apologize if I've disturbed you.

Looking for your cigarettes? -Yes.

-Here.

I'll...be seeing you, Mr. Ranieri.

-There, didn't I tell you not to bet on that horse?

-One's no good. You've got to get two or three.

-Our first victim. -Right.

-A sales girl in an antiques shop.

She left at the same time every evening

and was found murdered in a park.

-Park? -It was a mile and half

from the shop in the opposite direction from her home.

-This is the first question. -What?

-Why so far away and why in a park?

-Well, she could have gone to meet a boyfriend there.

Second victim. She was a prostitute.

She was killed under a bridge where she took her clients.

They suspected her pimp. His name is Garullo

but his alibi turned out to be iron clad.

-Where can I find this Garullo?

You can't. He's in jail.

At least he was until a month ago.

-Great.

Okay, number three. -Number three...

That was the student. -Student?

-She was killed on her way home from the movies.

-Movies? -Okay?

Enough?

-Okay, we start with the first one. The antiques shop.

-Good morning. -Oh, good morning.

-Can I help you?

-Er, yes. I'd like to see some --

-Ah, yes, you're interested in porcelain.

-Oh, I... -You have marvelous taste.

These pieces are beautiful.

-Er... -Simply divine.

-How much is this one? -300.

-Oh... -Oh, but I won't be

unreasonable about it.

Not with you. -Erm...

My goodness.

Isn't this the shop where that girl worked?

-Pardon? -The girl who was murdered.

-Ah. The poor, poor girl.

What a terrible way to end? -What was she like?

-Oh, a lovely girl, but a little unusual, you know.

-Oh? -Well, yes.

It was said that she preferred women.

-Oh. -I couldn't care less.

-Of course not.

-I'm no racist, for heaven's sake.

I remember that night as if it were yesterday.

We hadn't made a sale all day.

Then just before we closed, we sold a painting.

It was in the window. -Did you make the sale?

-No, the poor girl did. I was checking the books.

And then she went out without even saying goodnight.

Soon after, they found her.

-Um, what was the painting? -Oh, it was strange.

It was naive but macabre at the same time.

-Would you like to see it? -You still have it?

-Oh, I've only a copy of it. A photo.

-Oh, I would like to see it, yes.

-I'll show you.

Let me see... Oh, here it is.

-Can I borrow this? -No, no, no.

No, we don't normally allow it.

-Please.

Hey, what's wrong? -I don't know.

That painting, it bothers me.

What is it?

-It's a photo of a painting that's somehow

mixed up in these murders.

-Looks a bit perverted to me.

-Uh-huh? -Hmm.

Darling.

-Oh, it gives me the shivers.

-Something wrong, Miss? -No, nothing. Thanks.

Goodnight. -Goodnight, Miss.

No! No!

No!

No!

-And so black gloved killer removing the panties

as he kills the girl from the racetrack.

After the famous scene where Inspector Morosini

shouts bring in the perverts!

And then gets irritated when they bring in,

"Ursula Andress," who should be with the transvestites,

not with the perverts.

We have a lot of tropes to deal with

as we begin the "Battle for the Black Glove."

So let's flip a coin to get to a starting place.

Here are the rules.

Each team will have one minute to make your case.

We will alternate team members according to the topic.

The opposing team will then have one minute to rebut.

Then we will have two minutes of free-for-all rebuttal,

in which everybody is encouraged to passionately defend your man.

And at the end of that time, we'll apportion 10 points.

You can win all ten points, or in the case of a tie,

five to each team

or any combination of point awards adding up to 10.

Okay, Darcy. -Yes?

-You have the coin. -I do.

-Toss the coin.

Okay.

-What the heck? -It is heads, Team Bava.

Uh, Team Bava will go first,

and that will be you, Troy.

This movie started out with an extreme close up

of the hands of the black glove,

black-gloved killer planning a murder and caressing his knives.

What's the significance of the black gloves?

And how does that trope belong to Bava?

-Well, it's appropriate we should be going first with Bava

because he is the best one.

But also in this context,

I think it's, uh, it is the iconic image of the giallo.

I think if -- moments you say giallo to anybody

who knows anything about these movies,

you picture the -- the gloves, the black gloves,

always that sort of fetishistic imagery about that.

And Bava, well, certainly we have black gloves

in "Blood and Black Lace," but all the way back,

the very first Italian horror film of the sound era,

he works on a film called "I Vampiri" back in 1956.

And although it's not a giallo, it does have giallo elements,

including a killer with black gloves.

So there you go.

-And you're saying Bava was in charge of those black gloves?

-I think that's definitely something

that he brought to the table,

and definitely something

that would become a recurring element.

And yeah, it is, again,

I think it is the defining image of this genre.

-Okay. Claire, you have one minute to respond.

-Well, Bruno Forzani, who's the co-director

of the Neo-giallo "Amer" and "Strange Colour

of Your Body's Tears,"

said something I really agree with about

how when the killer is unmasked at the end of a giallo,

it's disappointing because this archetypal being

that's almost like a Cenobite

with this steel phallus and leather flesh

and it has no face.

It's the embodiment of a certain kind of rage

that is the product of radical cultural change.

And that's where the giallo comes from.

It comes from the extreme cultural tumult

that was happening really all over the world,

but certainly in Italy.

And that creature, that anonymous,

black-swathed creature should embody that.

Once it goes back to being human,

it's not quite as interesting,

even if the solution is pretty interesting.

-You're saying Argento gets the -- gets the call

because of his -- does the rage better?

-Yeah. -He does the rage

of the black gloves better.

-Yeah, I think we just saw that.

-Okay. Alright. Claire, thank you.

And now -- now we're going to have

the two-minute dogpile session of the --

of the debate where anybody can talk

-Well, if you want to talk about rage,

I mean, look at the killings in "Blood and Black Lace,"

how physical they are.

I mean, it's incredibly strong, I think, uh,

stronger than anything in "Bird with the Crystal Plumage."

-So you're saying the Bava killer is not weaker than the,

uh, than the Argento killer? -Not at all.

But some of those Bava killings are done by, like,

a reluctant person who's doing it for sort of personal reasons.

This is something I'd like to talk about a lot more later,

is like the motivation really matters.

And it should be sick and twisted and perverted and hard

for the average person to relate to.

And I think Argento killer has that going in spades.

-That is something that Argento brings to the genre.

When you look at Bava,

you're seeing people are motivated by things

like sex and money and so forth.

When you look at Argento,

because he was such a mixed up guy.

I mean, we don't need to go into it all here,

that he did actually bring a Freudian sort of

psychological stuff.

And I think that's because he is himself twisted, malformed,

barely able to function in society.

-Whoa.

-For once, I agree with you, Lars.

-Are you arguing for Argento from the Bava team?

-I'm arguing that Dario Argento is barely functional

as a human being...

...which makes him more able to get into

this sort of murdering mindset.

-Oh, wow. -Wow.

-Okay. -You know he wore the gloves

and he's still alive?

-Yeah, I know he wore the gloves,

but he's a tiny little man. -You might want to spin

in circles as you leave the lot. -He has smaller hands than,

I don't know, the president of the United States.

-Oh. -Is that possible?

-You're about to get the whistle.

-We're -- We're talking about Dario's hands?

-Yeah.

Because he, famously, he would -- he would do --

-He wore the black gloves in his movie.

-He wore the black gloves. -So those black gloves,

if they're full of rage, were Dario's hands.

-They were always small gloves. -Raging hands.

-Bava's gloves were big.

-You see these gloves?

If these gloves do not fit, you must acquit.

Oh, no.

And I'm telling you, watch this right now.

-Yeah, it's true. -They don't fit.

-Okay. -What?

-It was the O.J. trial. Look it up.

It was a whole thing.

Alright. Anybody else?

You got to do better on the whistle.

-Well, no one really earned the whistle yet.

I was just practicing.

-Okay. By the way,

that is Suzy Kendall as the, uh, girlfriend Julia.

One of the most popular Brit actresses of the '60s.

And she became internationally known

with her prominent role in "To Sir, with Love" in 1967.

She plays the supportive teacher trying

to help Sidney Poitier out,

and she was probably best known at the time

this movie was made as the wife of Dudley Moore.

She was in the tabloids all the time.

She's also in one of the best giallo films,

Sergio Martino's "Torso."

-Yeah. -Yeah!

-Alright. -You got points for that one.

-So, um, are you going to, uh... -This is your system.

-You're going to post the score?

-Yes. -Alright.

Since we're 32 minutes in the movie,

we should probably do one more trope,

um, and, um, t--

-Keep talking. -Go ahead

and announce the score.

And, uh, Team Argento is going to go first on the next trope.

And, uh, Sam, one of the knocks on Argento

that has followed him throughout his life

is that he is a misogynist,

that he enjoys fetishizing the death of women.

So, um, it's now --

We gave Argento the round,

uh, partly because you cratered, Lars.

But okay.

So true or false?

Uh, is -- is Argento misogynist,

and does that affect the enjoyment of the film?

-Uh. thank you, Joe Bob.

I'm certainly most qualified to answer this.

False. -That's false.

-Um, I don't know him personally,

but I think the language of "Crystal Plumage"

is in empathy with women

and aware of the dangers women face in

and around Italian society.

I think the structure of the suspense

is entirely about investing you in the danger

and the outcome of their lives,

and I don't think if you were taking pleasure

in their murders, he could concoct scenes

that would make you invested in that outcome.

-Okay. Lars rebuttal on that? -Yeah.

I also -- I think that the world at large is misogynistic.

And so, uh, particularly at this time,

I mean, I don't know if it's more or less misogynistic now.

It kind of seems to be kind of about the same,

but the -- the incentives,

commercial incentives were to make movies

that men would go and pay and see.

And so it was generally sort of thought

that men wanted to see beautiful women being murdered.

I'm not sure why that was the case,

but it's certainly something you see in a lot of giallo films.

I don't think Argento, uh, himself was a misogynist.

He certainly made films in partnership

with Daria Nicolodi and made, uh,

had a lot of strong female characters.

So I don't think it's true that he was.

I also don't think it's true that Bava was.

So I just think that it's, uh,

it's an unfair sort of standard to say,

like society's misogyny,

you know, affects the commercial considerations for these films.

-Didn't Argento say something like,

it's more interesting to watch -- watch --

watch a woman get killed than a man?

-It's more interesting to watch a woman

do most almost anything than a man generally, I would say.

-Okay. -Yeah.

-Thank you. And now anybody can talk.

We're in the free-for-all portion

of the -- of the debate on misogyny.

Now, I'm surprised that we're getting

so much defensive Argento here

because he has gotten hammered over the years

for exactly this issue,

more so than really most filmmakers,

including other filmmakers who may deserve it more.

-The thing is, Joe Bob,

is that when so many people see the films,

which they do because he's a very, like I said,

the very basic sort of target, kind of down the middle movies,

then more people are going to have comments on it.

-Okay. What about you, Troy? What do you think?

-Oh, I don't think he is.

I don't think that he is either.

Actually, I don't think, um,

the guy who's more problematic for a lot of people is Fulci.

And I don't think that that's true either.

-Is that because of the characters or because of the way

he treated actresses on his set?

-He treated men pretty rottenly too, has to be said.

-Kind of like this set. -Yeah. Well, yeah, that's true.

I've been abused the whole time I've been here.

So yeah, I understand that.

Um, no, I don't -- I think it's a knee jerk sort of reaction

because of the commercial demands of the marketplace,

uh, putting women into these,

uh, sensational images and things like that.

So people assume that they are misogynist

or coming from misogynist place.

I don't think they are, though.

-Who does Women characters better?

-Both Argento.

If you look at, uh, Bava's films like

"Blood and Black Lace," which we were discussing,

let's, you know.

But if you look at later Bava films

he's doing, like "Lisa and the Devil."

He's doing some really interesting --

had some really interesting, Well-rounded female characters.

-"The Whip and the Body." -Claire, you have

have to talk about this one.

You're the only woman on the panel.

-Forced to. I was waiting for permission,

Joe Bob, thank you.

And that's all I really had to say.

But no, Argento said that about "Bird" specifically,

that it is so sexually violent because that was

how he felt about what he saw in society at the time.

And I think when he says that thing about

how much more interesting it is to watch a beautiful woman die

than anyone else, he's trying to annoy people

who accuse him of that without the slightest hint of irony.

And I don't think anybody can really be a misogynist

who does such incredibly great older female characters.

-And you think they're better than -- than Bava's females?

-Yes. I don't often think

of the people in Bava movies as being like human.

One of my problems with, uh, "Blood and Black Lace"

is that there's so many fucking people in it.

I, like, I don't even know who they are

after a certain point.

It's like a whole sports team.

Who are these people? What are they doing here?

-I always hate it when they don't change their hair color.

Too many people with the same hair color.

Alright, time on that round.

Uh, Darcy, go ahead and post the score.

And now we're going back to the movie.

Um, I should say in some territories,

the panty removal shot was deleted.

They didn't mind the murder,

but they did mind the killer taking the panties

off of the dead woman.

Where are you on panty removal, Darcy?

-Panties are there to be removed.

-Alright. Before or after death?

It doesn't matter?

-I mean, it depends on how kinky you are, honestly.

-Okay. Alright.

-Do you want me to do this or not?

I don't know. -Yeah, go ahead. No. go ahead.

I'm sorry. Sorry to bother you.

Okay.

-Alright. How kinky is "The Bird with the Crystal Plumage?"

-I would say it's very kinky for its day.

-Okay.

And of course, we endorse that here at "The Last Drive-In."

-We do. -Okay.

And so the -- -I'm getting to it.

Gosh. -Alright.

So the score is 12-8.

-Spoilers.

-Partly because everyone kind of agreed

that Argento is not a misogynist.

And so his -- his female character stood up

to the Bava female characters.

-Tell me something. Is it really necessary?

-What?

-Running around, playing the detective.

-Hm. -Isn't it slightly ridiculous?

And rather dangerous, too?

-No. -Thank you.

-Besides, I have a feeling that I'm closer to the truth

than either one of us realizes.

What's happening to me?

This damn thing is turning into an obsession.

Who is it? -Morosini.

Ah, hello.

How are things? -Fine, come in.

-For a minute, I thought I'd got the wrong address.

Doesn't anyone else live in this building now?

-No, they're going to tear the building down soon.

My lease doesn't run out until next week.

So, I'm staying on.

-Ah-ha.

-Care for a coffee? -Ah, thanks, I would.

In fact, it's just what I need.

I've been up all night.

Ah, thanks.

Thanks.

-How come? -Eh?

Ah.

Here.

-When? -Last night.

A blonde. 28. Lived alone.

The usual blank wall.

No clues. No tie-in with the other three.

The press are beginning to put two and two together.

They think they see a link between the four murders.

-Oh, Julia, this is Inspector Morosini.

-Good morning.

Excuse me, I think we've met somewhere before?

-No, I'm sure we haven't. -Hey, look at this.

-Not another!

-As you may have suspected, Mr. Dalmas,

I'm afraid there is an ulterior motive for my visit.

I would like you to come down to headquarters with me.

-Why don't you just leave him alone?

-No, Julia. This is serious.

-He isn't even Italian and you're making him risk his life.

Somebody has already tried to kill him once.

And what makes you so sure they won't try again?

You're blackmailing him.

You're hanging onto his passport

and at the same time you're appealing

to his humane instincts. -Julia.

-Shall we go?

-Take care, won't you?

-I'm sorry.

Alright, alright. Now then. -Now then nothing.

I've gone over and over it. Absolutely nothing.

I saw them struggling on the mezzanine.

That's as far as I get.

I can't think of anything else.

But I know there's something.

-Thanks. -What are your plans?

Think I'll stick around for a while.

-Need any help for your investigations?

-I thought I was being followed.

-Oh, for your own protection.

-Yes, I would like some help.

I'd like to see that pimp, Garullo.

-Oh, that's easily arranged.

-Inspector, they've arrived for the television interview.

-Very well. Now it's my turn to make a fool of myself

in front of a few million television viewers.

-What'll you say? -I don't know.

I'll make up some spectacular lies...

That, briefly,

is the situation.

For the moment, I can only say

we have certain information

which I'm sure will soon

lead us to the murderer.

I urge all citizens

to remain calm

and report anything suspicious

to the police immediately.

Thank you.

Get back to me as soon

as you can and let me know if you need anything else.

Inspector Morosini.

-Hello?

I wanted you to

know how much I enjoyed

your talk on

television just now.

-Who's this?

-Who but the person

you are all so anxious to find?

The unknown

the whole city fears...

-Quick, record the call on Morosini's line.

-You haven't got a clue.

Not a suspicion. Nothing.

You know that and so do I.

It isn't right

to trick the public.

And to prove your threats

don't frighten me,

I'm telling you now:

You'll have a fifth murder

to solve

before the end of the week.

Hello?

-Careful, keep it upright. It's very heavy.

-Yes, it's very interesting.

Certainly one of the best examples of cosmic art.

But we never stand still.

In fact, in a couple of days

we're opening a new show of sculptures.

-You'll be changing everything? -Oh, yes.

These sculptures will all be replaced by others. Yes.

-Mr. Ranieri. -Yes.

-Would you mind having a look just to check

the position, please?

Yes, I'll be with you.

Ah, will you excuse me?

-Of course. -It's been nice seeing you here.

-Nice to see you, too.

-I want to thank you for what you did for me that night.

You know they told me, if you hadn't been there

that mad man would have killed me.

I'm better now, but...

It was so frightening that I -- I don't know

if I'll ever quite forget it. -Monica.

Monica, please come here.

-Thank you.

-Oh, not at all. -Goodbye, thanks.

-Look, what do you think of placing it like this?

It's not perfectly vertical

but from below you can see it better

and the points catch more light this way.

-Yes, of course. You're right.

-Yeah, she was my girl, so long.

-Where are you going?

-You, you said "so long."

-I always say that.

I -- If I don't, I stutter.

-Oh, I see.

-What do you want to know?

-I'm trying to help --

trying to help the police find the killer.

That's good, so long,

but I don't know what to tell you.

They picked me up a week after Rosita was murdered.

Poor kid, and here I am in jail.

And those poor girls having to get along without me.

No protection, with that m-monster loose on the streets.

-What have they got you in for?

-Nothing! I was framed.

They got it in... for me, so long.

They say I'm aiding and abetting prostitution

but I'm innocent. Look at me.

Do I... look like a pimp?

No! Look me straight between the eyes and tell me,

do I look like a guy who exploits women?

Of course, I've got nothing against

accepting a little present, now and then.

You know what I mean? -Sure.

Hey, look. Can you give me any help?

-I'll tell you one thing for sure.

It was nobody in my bank, so long.

We don't play those games.

It must have been some rich guy.

You know, a gentleman.

They're the ones that get those kinds of ideas.

-So you see these guys have a particular code of honor,

which is very different from anything anybody else has.

And this particular guy...

-That man's been following us for hours.

-He's Morosini's man. He's our bodyguard.

So anyway, it would be appear that this guy,

"So Long," has got a kind of...

Hey, taxi!

-Oh, well, I feel like walking. -Excellent.

-So Long's philosophy is that he expects everything from women

and nothing from men.

Stop! Stop!

No! No!

-Come on. Run!

-Alright, you wait here.

-Come on. Quick. It's me they are after.

You can get away. Call Morosini.

-Run.

-Hey, there's a guy with a gun after me.

-I don't see anyone. -Look, there he is.

-Where is he, huh?

-Mrs. Johnson!

Mrs. Johnson!

Mrs. Johnson!

-Excuse me. Have you seen a man with a yellow jacket

and a blue cap? -Er, yes, sir.

-Where did he go? -In there.

-Come on now, you guys.

It's about time we began talking

about some of the problems we face.

Oh, come on! Come on! Pipe down will you.

There's the problem of insurance coverage

and indemnity for permanent disability.

Oh, come on, you guys! Come on, listen to me.

-He had a glass jaw.

-So the man in the yellow jacket trying to kill Sam Dalmas

is Reggie Nalder,

and the way he was cast in the movie

is that Dario Argento saw him,

by sheer chance on the street,

recognized him as the assassin in Alfred Hitchcock's

"The Man Who Knew Too Much"

and thought, "Wow, if that's really him,

who better than to hire as the hitman in a yellow jacket?"

So he actually stalked him, chatted him up,

and despite Nalder's hesitation, he hired him for the role.

Okay, the Battle for the Black Glove continues.

Bava versus Argento.

And the next topic is music.

If you're wondering how you get Ennio Morricone

to do the score for your very first movie,

the answer is, "A," you work on Sergio Leone's

"Once Upon a Time in the West" as a screenwriting assistant

and, probably more important,

"B," you have a daddy who's an influential movie producer.

One thing we should probably point out

is that the budget for "The Bird with the Crystal Plumage"

was about $500,000,

and the budget for "Blood and Black Lace"

was about half of that.

But one thing that distinguishes both films is exciting music.

So who did it better? Lars, you're up next.

-You know, I got to say.

Ennio Morricone is a household name.

Carlo Rustichelli -- not a household name.

I think that's safe to say.

We all know Ennio Morricone.

But what we may not really know unless we're experts,

you know, which we all are,

is that Carlo Rustichelli,

uh, was an absolute master of multiple styles.

And I will say Dino Risi, who made "Il Sorpasso,"

thought he was good enough for his movie,

which is now a masterpiece.

Clearly the Criterion Collection and everything.

Billy Wilder, who I think we might all agree

knew a thing or two about movies,

hired Carlo Rustichelli for "Avanti!"

So Rustichelli really knew his stuff.

Now, Argento -- a portrait in efficiency, I will say.

Morricone.

Morricone was able to go in and go to the piano,

write a couple of figures,

throw it to his assistant, Bruno Nicolai,

and say, "Bruno, go do the score. I'm going to go..."

And he had some other stuff he had to do.

Do grocery shopping.

-Bruno Nicolai would actually go through and...

-Right. -Okay.

-Enough of that. -Time's up, Lars. Okay.

-Given the importance of music to the giallo,

which filmmaker had the better score?

Sam, rebuttal.

-Uh, it's Argento. It's Morricone.

Uh, again, this is the film that crystallized

what the giallo is and would become.

And Morricone's score, fusing jazz and rock, builds...

You can see it building to all of the folks that would come in,

uh, most notably Goblin, where it would go from there.

I think it's so clear.

The music is beautiful. It's listenable. It's exciting.

It feeds into the suspense in a way that I don't think it does

in "Blood and Black Lace."

It's easy. It's Morricone. -And Nicolai.

Let's -- Can we just give Bruno Nicolai some credit here?

-Bruno Nicolai needs his due. -Yeah.

Bruno Nicolai was doing a lot of the work

on this kind of stuff.

I mean, Morricone -- wonderful at selecting themes,

wonderful at giving a general mood to this,

but we really aren't talking about Bruno Nicolai

as the composer to that stuff.

And he did a fine job. It's okay.

It works in the context of that film.

Uh, but I think you look at Carlo Rustichelli

and you see what he was doing with popular music,

with Latin beats, with bossa nova beats.

He's really capturing

the sophistication of the time period.

He's really capturing these, uh, cosmopolitan...

...morally empty, uh, existential...

-Listen to the whistle! -Let him finish. Let him finish.

-You said 10 seconds!

-...alienated people. Okay. No. I got it.

-No, no.

-I just needed enough time to win.

Do you think --

Do you think that if giallo had happened six years earlier,

all the scores would have been jazz scores?

-Well, I think all the scores that needed to convey

a sort of aristocratic alienation and emptiness would.

Because that was really what Rustichelli is doing.

It's very much like "Il Sorpasso."

What he's doing there is he's conveying

an empty world of broken and aimless

and spiritually, uh, you know, corrupt people.

-Okay. -Yay.

-Everybody can talk now. Go ahead.

-I think that Rustichelli is a composer

who definitely doesn't get the recognition

and the appreciation that he deserves from a lot of people

because obviously Morricone is the easy choice.

I mean, he's the big name. Everybody knows who he is.

Tarantino has used his music, you know,

so it's the easy answer.

But I think if you dig a little bit deeper,

you can see the genius of what Rustichelli was doing.

-And we're digging. -Alright.

-We're digging. -Alright.

We're tallying up the landed punches in that exchange.

But I want to just mention that Inspector Morosini

is played by Enrico Maria Salerno,

who was also well known as an actor,

but was also known as a guy who collaborated with the fascists

during World War II and served prison time because of that.

We're going back to the movie. Roll the film. And Tony Musante --

Oh, I wanted to talk about that. Tony Musante is the actor playing Sam Dalmas,

and he's in just about every scene in the movie,

and he's one of several actors

that Dario Argento did not get along with in his long career.

But Musante was the first one that he didn't get along with,

and it seems to be because he was a New York method actor

and kind of quirky.

And he showed up at Argento's apartment one night

at 3:00 a.m., pounding on the door,

wanting to discuss the movie,

and Argento was terrified and never forgave him.

Never.

In the '90s, when they started having

retrospective screenings

of "The Bird with the Crystal Plumage"

at prestigious film festivals...

Maybe you guys showed it at the Alamo.

Um, Argento would make sure all the actors

except Tony Musante were invited to the screenings,

and he was kind of proud of the fact

that he still felt that way after 30-plus years.

That's how much he did not like Tony Musante.

Wow. Brutal.

-Argento...

Argento -- He's a complicated guy.

-That's true. -Yeah.

-I mean, he's not that complicated.

-Okay. Anyway, Tony Musante made

quite a few movies in Italy,

but he never quite broke through as a star.

He worked in theater most of his life, died in 2013,

but he was quite good at not remembering

what he saw at the art gallery.

-Yes, he was. -At the end,

I'll explain why that's important.

Actually, I'll let Team Bava explain why that's important.

Because I'm going to go right down the middle on this.

But, uh, right down the middle is boring,

and so that's why we're going to decide tonight,

once and for all, who wins this battle.

And the score is Argento, 18, Bava, 15.

-Explain your logic. What's your reasoning? Why?

-Well, that was a draw.

That was a sheer draw.

I mean, it's like we were talking about music

from two different worlds

and both made a good argument for their team.

-Good work. -That was a 5-5 round.

-He died without regaining consciousness.

Fractured spine and skull.

Do you think you could recognize him?

-I didn't see his face clearly.

-I want every man at that convention tracked down.

I don't care a damn where they are.

I want photographs, criminal records,

all the particulars you can dig out for me right here going.

Oh, and one other thing. I want two of our top men

detailed to cover the two behind me.

They are to be watched day and night.

I'm very sorry to have got you into this mess.

Take my advice.

Go back to the United States.

-I feel that I'm getting closer to the truth every minute.

The murderer is obviously of the same opinion.

That's why he's trying to kill me.

The more he tries, the more he risks discovery.

-Stop. Let's see your driver's license.

-I'm trying to arrange things

so we can spend a weekend together.

I love you. -Me too.

-Bye. -Bye, Gina.

Aah!

-Those...sons of bitches.

They really tried to get you so long.

-Yeah.

And I want to find him.

-Yeah. Sure. I'll help you so long.

Um, let me think.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's it. I know the guy for you.

-Who? -Um, he ain't cheap,

but, um, there's nothing he don't know.

-Okay.

-Hey. This is strictly between you and me.

No...

police so long. -Police.

-Don't worry.

-Call the Caramba Pool Hall and ask...

...for Faiena.

Tell him So Long sent you.

Elevator.

Get an elevator. Huh?

-Who are you? -I'm Faiena.

-Faiena?! Come on in!

-We couldn't just meet in a bar.

Oh, no. Five flights. I gotta walk up and meet.

Who's that, eh?

-Oh, she's a friend. You can trust her.

Here. Sit down.

No.

Hey. Now, get this straight.

-I don't know anything.

I don't know anybody.

And I ain't seen anything.

What do you want to know?

-The other night, around 11:00,

someone tried to kill me with a pistol and silencer.

And he got away and went to the Lux Hotel.

What's the matter?

-This place bugged?

- No. - Now, listen to me.

There was a convention of ex-prize fighters in the hotel.

He was dressed like one.

-You want to turn him in? Is that it?

-No. I just want to talk.

-Can't help you.

-Hundred.

-Hundred what?

-100,000.

-Oh. Yeah.

-Oh! Come on.

-30, 40, 60, 70, 80, 90...

Here.

-No. Keep it.

-10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100.

-Uh, when will I hear from you?

-Never!

Maybe tomorrow morning.

-Hello?

-Yes?

-Get smart, Mr. Dalmas.

Take my advice.

Mind your own business.

Stop playing detective.

It's not healthy.

That was a warning yesterday.

Wasn't it enough?

-Uh, what do you suggest I do?

-Go back to America.

Forget about the murders.

There is a limit

to my patience.

-Uh, who's speaking?

-Is the girl there with you?

-Yes.

-She's very young.

Very beautiful.

Would you like her to die?

Because if you

don't drop everything,

I will kill her.

Go back to America.

Forget about the murders.

There is a limit to...

-Did you hear that creaking sound?

-Hm. -I want to know what it is.

What makes a sound like that?

It's all we've got to go on. -I'll find out.

-Well?

What are you going to do now?

-I don't know.

It was simpler when I had only myself to think about.

Damn painting. There's got to be a lead there somewhere.

-Maybe the woman looks like the first victim.

-It's too roughly drawn. Could be anybody.

-Hello?

-This is Faiena.

Couldn't find out anything.

But if you're interested,

there's an ex-fighter

named Needles.

He might possibly

know something.

Lives not far from your place.

Via Angiolieri 39.

-Via Angiolieri 39.

Hello?

Hello?!

-Anyone home?!

-Okay. They always have that shot.

Both Argento and Bava.

The shot of the dead person like an object of art.

Uh, welcome back to the Battle for the Black Glove.

We had a score correction.

Uh, we actually -- We got both scores wrong.

Instead of 18-15, it was 17-13...

-Whatever. -...because the last round

was a 5-5 round.

This is the Battle of the Black Glove.

Features the smartest people in the world decoding the issue

what is the giallo foundation film?

Uh, is it "The Bird with the Crystal Plumage,"

which we're watching now,

or is it "Blood and Black Lace" made six years earlier,

which will be our second feature tonight?

One thing gialli are known for...

I like to say "giallos."

It just sounds weird to me to say "gialli."

One thing gialli are known for is having a lot of

rich, psychotic people in the cast.

Poor psychotic people, too, but not so much.

But there's the implication that maybe the richer you are

or the more you're part of the social aristocracy,

the crazier you are.

And a lot of people we're seeing in this movie

tonight seem slightly off.

You know, the antique-store guy, the art-gallery owner.

And so, Claire, it's gonna be your turn to start this off.

Make the argument that nobody does psycho better than Argento.

-Well, Argento is obsessed with Freud.

Like, so obsessed with Freud

that he brags about this pilgrimage

that he made to Zurich.

And, like, he saw Freud's couch and everything,

um, which is really funny.

And he does this sort of, uh --

In every one of his movies, there's the primal trauma.

He loves to say that, you know, family is the root of all evil.

And, um -- But these are just factoids.

I think everybody watching this show kind of knows that.

Uh, and I love the implication that rich people --

Listen, if you're poor, you need to spend your time and energy

working for a living.

If you're rich, you have time

to cultivate disgusting perversions.

But, also, this really has to do again with, like,

the, um -- an eruption of rage, a kind of, uh, rupturing

between the past and the emerging savage future.

I think that this is what's really happening

in "Bird with the Crystal Plumage,"

that, you know, you've got it set in kind of,

like, the seat of high culture and fine art for the West.

And then something totally disgusting

is happening in among there.

-With, uh, "Blood and Black Lace,"

it's a little, you know -- it's kind of stuck in the past.

It's almost more like a gothic drama or something.

And then Lars was good enough...

-Are you blowing the whistle, Darcy?

-'Cause I like what she's saying.

Thank you.

Alright. Time is up, Claire.

Sorry. Team Bava now has the right of reply.

That would be you, Troy.

-Yeah, I think the -- Uh, it is true to say

that Argento is the one

who brings in the armchair Freud.

You know, he goes that route.

Whereas Bava was a lot more interested in the whole idea

of sort of greed.

And, uh, there is a political aspect to these films,

definitely, that they are sort of talking about the idle rich,

you know, the corruption among the rich

and all that sort of thing.

And very often, you know, the --

the upper crust is depicted very negatively.

Uh, but what Bava's films are about --

I find even more disturbing, personally,

than the sort of Freudian stuff --

is this element of greed, you know?

The idea that people will -- As we know.

Pick up a newspaper. You see it every day.

People will do anything in order to get ahead.

People will do anything in order to, uh,

you know, swell their banks a little bit further.

So I find that that element,

although it's not what would become typical in gialli

in the 1970s, it is nevertheless, I think,

a very disturbing aspect.

-Alright. Time is up for you, Troy.

Now anybody can talk. Go for it, guys.

-I think it's disturbing,

the nature of greed, the nature of corruptive power.

But on screen they tend to play it simply deceitful,

whereas in Argento's films they're much more

characteristically exciting to watch.

They're weirder. They're kookier. They're funnier to be around.

-Right, and this is the kind of thing

that people start describing

when you ask them what a giallo is.

Motivations like greed and being in love with the wrong person

or being a drug addict or something

are frankly sort of mundane.

And the problem for me really

is that they're -- they're kind of timeless.

And what's really interesting in the giallo

is some kind of conflict between tradition,

like, let's say, embodied by the aristocracy,

and what's coming out.

What's coming out of the Years of Lead in Italy?

What's coming after the student protests in the late '60s?

What's coming --

What kinds of frustration and rage

are coming out when women's liberation starts to happen?

And I think that's really what you see in Argento's movies

that makes them special, and most gialli

that are really bold and stick with you

and seem emblematic of the genre,

they have this quality.

-But who does psycho better?

Are you guys saying that Bava does psycho better?

-I think he does, yes.

I think he cuts to the root of, uh, you know, greed

and that idea of, you know, the destruction of beauty

and, you know, the sort of senseless rage

that people have.

People who have nothing better to do with their lives

except go around and just try to get richer and richer.

-You don't really know who the psycho is

until the movie's over, right?

You -- Everyone is a secret psycho.

-Well, there's a lot of neurotics all throughout the film.

You know, in "Blood and Black Lace,"

everybody's hiding a secret of some kind or another.

-Alright, well, we'll take a moment

to consider the evidence here.

I think that was another 5-5 round, actually.

Now we're going to watch one of the most famous and most perplexing sequences in the movie.

Um, I think it's a trope in Argento

that the protagonist always has to go

into the countryside at some point.

Is that right? Am I right about that?

There's always a scene that's, like, away from Rome

or away from Milan or wherever.

It's out in the country.

And it has even more eccentric characters out there.

So roll the movie, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

I feel sorry for anybody watching tonight

if this is your first giallo.

-Or your first time watching this movie.

Or this show, for that matter.

-Or watching this show.

Uh, but we're trying to do what horror fanatics

always do -- ruining the movie by overanalyzing it.

-Whoo! You said it, man!

-You should see the topics --

Yeah, you should see the topics I had on our menu

that were ruled out as too far off the subject.

-Wow. You thought something was too far off the subject?

-Yeah, that's how sick we got preparing for this show.

-Now look at it on the oscilloscope.

-I wanted you to know

how much I enjoyed

your talk on television

just now.

Who but the person

you are all...

-Alright. Now we listen to the other one.

-Be smart, Mr. Dalmas.

Take my advice.

Mind your own busin...

-Notice any difference between the two tapes?

-Sure.

The waves on the first machine

are different from those in the second.

-Exactly. You see...

every human voice, no matter how well it's disguised,

has a characteristic pattern

of harmonic intensities in the vowel sounds.

Now, when we analyzed the vowel groups

of each of these two tapes, we made an unexpected discovery.

We found that whereas the first group

registered at 5 decibels on the lower range and 12 high,

when we came to the second reading,

we discovered it only barely registered to 4 and 10.

-And the explanation?

-The voices don't belong to the same person.

-Are you sure? -Absolutely.

-That means there are two killers?

-It would seem so.

Um, unless, uh,

there's only one killer confusing us

by dragging an accomplice in.

In that case -- it's only supposition, of course --

he was no doubt the one who tried to kill you.

The one you found murdered.

-And now we'll listen to the sound you gave us to analyze.

We isolated the sound and compared it

with hundreds of similar ones.

We've exhausted the field of sounds

produced by industrial machinery,

factory demolition sites,

through to electric doors, cranes,

coin-operated machines, domestic appliances, the lot.

But so far, we've been unable to equate it.

-What now?

-All we can do is keep trying.

-Okay. Thank you.

-Sorry I won't be around for the finish.

-You're leaving?

-Day after tomorrow.

I've said that before, haven't I?

40 pages. All written in the last few days.

If nothing else, this little adventure

started me writing again. -Glad to hear it!

-It's broken me loose. Here. Pack these, too.

I'm writing frantically again.

-Whatever happened to those leads you were following up?

-Not a damn thing.

Hey. Listen to this.

This came over the telephone.

It would have been a great lead

if we could have figured out what it was.

-Go back to America.

Forget about the murders.

There is a limit

to my patience.

Is the girl there with you?

She's...

-Hm. -Hey, look! Hold it!

Let me hear it again, will you?

-...murders.

There is a limit

to my patience.

Is the girl there with you?

-Well?

-She's very young. Very...

-I don't know. It reminds me of something.

Ah. Oh, I guess I'm wrong.

-Great.

Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

Wait a minute. Leave it. I'll do it.

-Hey!

-Ohh! Ow!

Oh, I don't believe it!

I just can't believe it. -Believe what, huh?

-That we're leaving.

-Listen. Why don't I take the tape?

-If I think of anything, I'll call you.

I'll call you, eh?

So long.

-Do you know...

these are the last few hours in this house.

Ohh.

Do you really love me?

Mm? -Sure. Sure.

How much time have we got?

-How much what?

-How long until the plane leaves?

-Eight hours. Why?

-Wait. That may be just enough.

-Hey! What...

What do you want to do now?

Sam?

-Uh. Hello?

-Hello?

Uh, is this the, uh...

-Yes.

-Uh, this is Sam Dalmas speaking.

I'm the, um -- the American who borrowed the photograph

of the painting of that murder.

-Oh, yes. I remember.

You were so charming.

-Ah, yes. Yes.

Um, can you tell me the name of the artist

who painted the picture?

-Certainly.

His name is Berto Consalvi.

-Berto Consalvi.

Um, can you tell me where I can find him?

-Yes. He lives in a town

not far from here.

It's about an hour

and a half by train.

-Um, what's the name of it?

-Aviano.

-Aviano. Thank you. Uh, thank you very much.

-You're welcome.

It's a pleasure.

-An hour and a half by train. I can just make it.

I've got to talk to that painter!

Now, that first girl was murdered

just after she sold a painting of a girl being murdered.

Now, that can't be a coincidence.

There's got to be a connection!

I'll be gone four or five hours. You finish packing.

There's no need to worry, so long as you don't leave the house.

There are two detectives watching the front door.

Bolt the door and don't open it for anyone.

Mmm! I love you.

-I never should have believed you! I'm a fool!

Cut it out!

Oh, if you need anything -- and you won't -- call Nini.

You know the phone number. No!

-Thanks for the lift.

Would have been some walk.

-You're welcome.

If you take my advice, you'll get out of here.

The man's crazy.

You never know what'll happen next.

-Thanks for the advice.

-Then follow it, huh?

But in case you're minded to carry on,

I'm telling you, you needn't go looking for the door.

It ain't no use. See?

He's walled up the whole darn building.

Doors, windows are locked.

-There's got to be some way of getting in.

-Yeah, there is, but it doesn't mean he'll let you in.

I'm telling you, if your face ain't right, he might as soon

tell you what you can do with it.

-Huh.

-Consalvi?

Berto Consalvi!

-Go to blazes!

-I want to buy a painting!

-What do you want it for?

-For my house.

Hey!

Why did you wall up your house?

-To keep out the busybodies!

Nobody gets in here unless I want them to.

Besides, there's cats.

Who told you about me?

-Oh, uh, nobody. I saw one of your paintings.

I liked it.

-Huh. What was it?

-Oh, uh, it was, uh, one about a murderer killing a girl.

-Bah. I don't do that crap anymore.

I'm going through a mystical period.

I only paint mystical scenes.

-Why?

-Why? Why? Because I feel mystical!

If it's any of your damn business!

-No, no, no, no it's not.

-What was your inspiration for that painting?

-You want to eat?

-Uh, yeah.

-Oh, that was a real story.

A long time ago.

-Uh, fine.

How long?

-Oh, ten years, more or less.

A maniac got hold of a girl I knew.

Tried to cut her up.

Just stopped him in time.

Put him in an asylum for life.

Huh!

Ahh. Genius. Heh!

Hey!

You want to buy a painting or not?

-Mm! -Well, do you?

-Mm. Yeah.

Sure, sure. -Come with me.

Mmm! Mmm!

I got just the thing.

Early Consalvi. Very rare. Ha!

Hey! Hey! Quick! Quick!

Shut the window! Quick!

Shut the window! Shut the window!

Hey!

Ahh! Ha! There you are!

Gotcha!

Ha!

Blasted cats.

Crafty creatures.

There. Heh.

They always manage to find a hole to slip through.

And they're always away in a flash!

-Why do you keep 'em in a cage?

-The less they move, the fatter they get.

-Why do you want 'em to get fat?

-Huh? Why do I want them to get fat?

-Hm. -I eat them.

-Oh, no. -Why? What's the matter?

Don't you like cat?

-I don't know. I never ate any.

-Never, huh?

Yeah. Here. Take this one.

200,000. -Oh, no.

-No? Alright. 150.

-Oh, no!

-A hundred! -Oh, no.

-50,000!

Capitalist!

-Hello?

-You still mad at me?

-Sam, where are you?

-I'm at the station in Aviano on my way home.

-How did it go?

-Uh, well, I talked to him, but I didn't get anywhere.

Look, there's been a railway strike,

so I'll be about an hour and a half late.

-Oh, no!

What about the plane, Sam?!

-Oh, don't worry. I'll be there in time.

Everything okay?

-Yes. Carlo telephoned.

-Oh?

-He wanted to

talk to you urgently.

He said he'd discovered

something

that would interest you.

-What?

-He didn't say.

I told him you'd left me here alone...

and that I'd have him call you as soon as you get back.

Sam.

Sam.

Sam?

-Man: You will not leave this house alive.

-No!

Help! Help!

No!

Ohh! Ohh!

Help!

Help!

Ohh!

Ohh!

Ohh!

-Julia? Julia!

Julia!

-Okay, I do hope that during this segment

at least one of our esteemed panelists will explain to me

the importance of the psychotic, cat-eating,

antisocial painter Berto Consalvi,

played by the great German character actor Mario Adorf.

Um, Sam Dalmas apparently believes

that his painting of a murder

is the whole key to finding the killer,

and it's obviously a huge side trip

at the 70-minute mark of the movie.

What the fuck?! I mean...

At any rate, as we return to the Battle for the Black Glove,

let's talk about camerawork, use of color.

Gialli are famous for being set in beautiful places

with beautiful people,

but with lurid colors that somehow undermine the scene.

So, Troy, um, tell us why Argento does that,

how he does that,

why Bava does it better.

-Well, I think Bava does definitely do it better,

one of the reasons being

he has a background as a cinematographer.

So he was very much in control of the look of his films.

No matter who's credited on the films as a DP,

it's always him who's kind of controlling

the look of the movie.

So he's very much involved in the color schemes,

this kind of very -- almost like a fashion spread

kind of an aesthetic that goes throughout his movies.

Very vibrant. Very, um...

Very lush colors that are very unnatural.

I mean, you'll see things that don't make any logical sense.

Where is this purple light coming from?

Where is this sort of green lighting coming from?

And it has nothing to do with realism.

It has everything to do with creating

a specific mood, a specific atmosphere,

and it takes great taste to be able to do that really well.

And I think that was something that Bava demonstrated

throughout his career.

Also, he had a background as a painter, as well,

so that's another aspect that's definitely true of him.

Argento, yeah, he definitely has it in his films.

Argento is also very visually oriented.

But I think Bava is the more elegant filmmaker.

-Okay.

I think we've hit on a topic that can be discussed endlessly,

but that is your cue, Claire, to go for it.

Rebuttal.

-Listen, fellas.

I have an art-history degree from Bard College,

and that means that I am the world's least employable person,

so I have lots and lots and lots and lots of time

to think about these things.

Now, this is almost like --

You know, we've been set up and hamstrung by this

because we all know that Argento is the master

of florid, feverish colors,

just not in this side-by-side comparison.

Argento does something more important here

that he works up for the rest of his career,

which is what all great gialli do, right?

Which is to turn murder into fine art.

Argento literally has made the art gallery

and the canvas the scene of the crime.

And there's like multiple scenes of such crimes in this movie.

And then the art starts attacking people,

which goes on to happen, like,

maybe even more spectacularly in "Tenebrae."

Uh, and, you know, when there's --

as I've been harping on again and again --

like, a major moment of cultural revolution,

where do we first see this?

You see it in the art world.

You certainly see it in horror movies.

-Alright. Time's up.

So everybody can chime in on what the giallo brought

to cinematography,

in which the camera is often one of the characters.

That's true with both guys, I think.

And, um -- But I think it works both ways.

Beautiful women in fancy bras photographed in death.

Right?

And then guys like the cat-eating painter

depicted with glamour shots.

Right? Okay. Comments?

-Well, Claire, I appreciate your point.

A concession, if you will,

that, uh, "Bird with Crystal Plumage"

lacks, uh, some of the exciting,

um, cinematographic elements that Mario Bava

brings to "Blood and Black Lace."

And it's big of you to concede the point,

and I really appreciate it.

But I do think that when you look at Mario Bava's work,

the cinematography, uh, the technical aspects of it

do rise to the front in a way

that Argento never actually captured.

We never see that, even in his later works.

-Well, I think another big thing is budgets.

You know, when we look at the amount of money

that was spent on these movies,

Argento's films have a much bigger canvas to work with.

You know, whereas Bava was pulling out

all kinds of incredible things,

using very hand-crafted, uh, sort of...

-Wait. Which of these two guys was the rich kid

who grew up learning how to write checks from his father

and which was, like, the scrappy filmmaker

who was on set with his dad

learning how to do special effects in movies?

-There you go. -That's Bava, right,

that was the scrappy kid?

Okay. Alright. Just making sure. -You said it perfectly.

-I'd just like to make a note of the fact

that in this last round of discussion,

both of you started using the word "big" compulsively,

and I wonder why that is.

-Ooh! -Can't help it. Can't help it.

I mean, I think a lot of it

comes down to big intellect, big brain.

Just all the stuff that we think about all the time, you know?

-Wow! Getting saucy now. -It's natural. It's natural.

-It comes naturally. -It comes naturally, yes.

-But Argento's finding these artful frames

in locations, right?

"Blood and Black Lace" is beautiful

but is full of gothic artifice.

It is full of, as you noted, unmotivated lighting,

however gorgeous it is.

When we are in the gallery in "Crystal Plumage,"

he is creating a frame that is kind of unmistakable,

absolutely astounding through pieces that are already there.

-And we've all been in art galleries

that have that bizarre setup with those sliding glass doors.

-Well, once we win, you'll be locked in it just like him.

-Yes. Of course. Right. Of course.

-Oh, snap. I feel like that's a point.

Okay.

-If you want to say so.

-Also, isn't Bava --

Didn't Bava occasionally just do matte paintings on his own?

-He did his own matte paintings.

-He'd just stop shooting and do a matte painting.

And he was literally writing on the --

He was literally drawing images on the film.

-Yeah, he didn't get his daddy to sign the checks

to get somebody else to do it.

-Bava was a technical --

Bava was a technical master all around.

Uh, Argento was a guy who was able to hire

these incredible technical masters all around.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

But Bava himself was a technical master,

and Argento certainly was not.

-Yeah. Stay in your lane. -Okay.

I'm gonna give a 6-4 to Bava on this.

Uh, 22 -- No. No. Twenty -- I'm sorry.

-Now you get it. Thank you.

-This stuff ain't easy.

-Yeah, it's gonna end up as, um, 26-24.

-Are you sure? -26-24.

-Are you sure about that? -Yes.

-Alright. -26-24.

-None of us are math majors. -Ahh.

And now, as we move quickly toward

the concluding chapter of "The Bird with the Crystal Plumage"

and as we find out the meaning of the title...

...get ready for the controversial twist ending.

Roll the movie.

Now, normally we don't have guests stay for the outro

of the movie, but in this case, it's a necessity.

And actually, I think it would be a necessity

with almost any giallo film

because how many giallos get resolved

in the last 30 seconds of the movie?

-A lot. -Ernesto Gastaldi,

who I consider maybe the finest of all the giallo screenwriters,

says giallo is a puzzle that must never cheat.

Everything in the puzzle leads to the reveal at the end,

and you should never guess the reveal in advance.

But once you see the reveal, you should say,

"Oh, yes, it couldn't have been anything else.

That makes perfect sense."

So we're going to talk about how well Argento

does the reveal in his first outing.

-Also, I love "The Bird with the Crystal Plumage."

-Well, I know you do.

We all love "The Bird with the Crystal Plumage."

-But... -No. No, no.

I mean the actual bird.

-Oh, the actual bird? -Yes.

-The bird in the... Okay. Do they --

Do they have a bird with the crystal plumage in the Rome Zoo?

-They do. -That was the Rome Zoo, right?

-Yes. -Okay.

Are the feathers crystal?

-No, but it's still beautiful. -Alright.

Ever since you went to the Profondo Rosso bookstore

and made friends with Luigi Cozzi,

you've been a goldmine of giallo information.

-We're best friends, yes.

Um, who else is gonna do the important detective work?

-Actually, this panel is so nerdy, I could imagine --

-Honestly. -I could imagine

anybody here in this room.

I can imagine anybody going to the zoo in Rome

just to look at the bird with the crystal plumage.

Because we're horror people. That's what we do, right?

-Also to see the cast of "Wild Beasts."

-Yes. That's a very good point. Yes.

Sam?

Sam!

Ohh.

-How do you feel?

-Alright. Did they get him?

- No. - He must have...

slipped out through the cellar or something.

-Ohh.

What time is it?

Just after 4:30.

- No! - You slept around the clock.

-Ah! H-Hey! Peeping Tom! Hey?

So sorry.

You were supposed to call me, you know.

I've got news for you.

-The phone's been out of order.

-Ah. I think I finally figured out what that creaking sound is.

Sam, it's very peculiar.

-What is it?

It's the call of Hornitus Nevalis,

a magnificent bird with long white feathers

that look like glass.

-What's so strange about it?

-Well, the only place in the world

that bird can live is Northern Siberia.

Are you sure?

-Positive.

-How about a drink, eh? I deserve one.

In any case, it's almost impossible

to keep one of those birds alive in captivity.

In fact, there's only one specimen in the whole of Italy.

And that has to be kept -- Hey, hey, what are you doing?!

What's the matter with you? -Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

You mean there is one here? -Yes.

That's what I'm trying to tell you.

It's practically a miracle,

but they're managing to keep one alive.

-Where?

-Now, where else could you keep a rare bird?

The zoo.

The cage is over that way.

Near the back of the zoo. Over there.

-Hey. Come on. It's quite a walk.

-Oh, it's not far now. They have to keep it isolated.

It doesn't get along with the other animals.

Oh. Over there.

They're going to have to move it, though.

It can't even stand the smell of them.

There it is!

-Ranieri! He called from his apartment.

I remember now. The telephone's right next to that window!

-Monica!

-Come on! -Come on! Julia!

Open the door!

-Right. Leave it to us.

-Give me the knife!

-Don't shoot. -Let her go!

-There's no way out.

-Give yourself up, Ranieri.

You can't get away.

-Drop the knife!

-No! -Don't move.

There is no way out.

-No!

-Drop the knife.

-Keep away from me.

Keep away!

-That's enough! -What has happened?

-Where'd he get you? -Julia! Come on!

Save me!

Please. Stop.

I don't want to die!

-He's slipping. -Help me! I don't want to die!

-I can't hold it. I can't hold it!

Yes, it's true.

I am -- I'm the murderer.

I killed all of them.

Please take care of my wife.

She tried...

to stop me.

I loved her.

-Poor devil.

I feel sorry for him.

Morosini here. Put me through to Homicide.

-You haven't seen the girl I was with, have you?

-No. She was behind us when we got to the apartment.

Isn't she here? -No.

Have you seen her since then?

-No, I haven't.

-Thanks.

-Have you seen a girl come by with long hair, blond?

-Yeah. She came down a while ago.

-Are your sure? -Yeah.

-Which way did she go?

-She ran off in that direction with two others.

-Thanks. -Huh.

-Blood! His head busted open like a watermelon!

-Excuse me. -Hey?

-Have you seen a girl go by in that direction with, uh --

with long blond hair and a gray raincoat

come down to about here? -I think so. Yeah. Sure.

-Excuse me. Have you seen a girl with long, blond hair

and a gray raincoat down to here?

-Yes. I saw her go in there. -In that door?

-That's what I said.

-Thanks.

This one here? -Yeah.

Carlo. Oh, my God!

What have you done with Julia?

Answer me!

-It was you!

-That's where I went wrong.

You had the knife in your hand.

You were trying to kill your husband,

not the other way around.

-That's what I knew I'd seen!

That's what I knew I'd seen!

-Ohh...

-Help me.

Help me!

Ha!

Now you're going to die.

You're going to die.

You're going to die.

Like all the others.

Ohh!

-Right! Come on. Quick!

One at each end! That's it! Now lift!

That's enough. Hold it! No, no, no!

I'll pull you. Ah. That's it.

Are you alright, Sam? -H-How'd you find out?

-Julia.

-Julia?

-Ah.

Yes. She'll be alright.

And you. You'll be alright too, eh?

Come on. I'll help you up.

-As Inspector Morosini,

who has been in charge of the investigation,

has told you, the final curtain has fallen

at last on this tragic affair

which has kept the whole city in a state of shock.

Monica Ranieri, hopelessly insane,

is in custody of the psychiatric hospital.

Her husband, who loved her not wisely but too well,

lost his life in a last attempt

to turn suspicion away from his wife.

Inspector Morosini,

can you explain to us what led this poor,

unbalanced creature to commit these horrible murders?

Uh. Um.

Good evening.

Sorry.

Well, I, um --

I think the person best qualified

to answer this question is, uh, Professor Rinaldi,

the well-known psychiatrist who acted as, um,

as our consultant during the investigation.

Please, Professor, you would explain, huh?

-Certainly.

For the moment, we can only make conjectures.

Ten years ago, Monica Ranieri,

who had already evident paranoid tendencies,

was brutally attacked and suffered severe trauma.

Nevertheless, she recovered sufficiently

to return to a normal life.

Her mental disturbance remained dormant for 10 years

until the day she came across a painting

which depicted the horrible scene

of which she had been the protagonist.

Her latent madness came to life violent and irresistible.

Strangely, she did not identify herself with the victim,

but with her attacker.

On order to explain the behavior of her husband,

who attempted murder on various occasions to protect his wife,

we must assume that he suffered from an induced psychosis.

He was influenced by his paranoid wife

to the point of becoming homicidally psychotic himself.

-I can hear him saying it now.

"Go to Italy. It's a peaceful country.

Nothing ever happens there."

-So, Darcy, you're telling us that you saw an actual

Hornitus Nevalis in the Rome Zoo?

-Well, the Hornitus Nevalis doesn't actually exist.

They used a gray crowned crane. And it's still here.

-So, really, the movie should have been called

"The Gray Crowned Crane"?

-Yes, but it might have hurt the box office.

-It's not like "The Bird with the Crystal Plumage"

is a "guaranteed, can't wait" title for a film, right?

So, um, anyway, we are back with the finale of the first half

of the Battle for the Black Glove.

And we now know that there were two killers,

one trying to cover up for the other killer.

Three killers, if you count the hitman.

Um, but we know that what Sam Dalmas saw

on the mezzanine of the art gallery

was Monica trying to kill her husband,

not someone trying to kill Monica.

So for Alberto Ranieri's

point-of-view death plunge,

Argento did something that I've never heard of before.

A camera was dropped six stories onto a concrete sidewalk.

The camera was destroyed, but the footage survived.

Boy, that is hardcore.

And, uh, Monica, by the way,

was played by the German celebrity beauty Eva Renzi,

who was considered difficult to work with

by virtually every director who ever used her.

Eva Renzi was famous for her love affairs and marriages,

always in the tabloids.

Had an abusive childhood.

Troubled adulthood. Two suicide attempts.

Lots of success on the German stage, though,

and supporting roles in a few big-budget '60s movies.

But she called this movie her "career suicide."

She was mostly famous for being famous,

but she was very convincing, in my opinion, in this role,

the role that she hated.

Argento was notorious for not being a plot person.

More interested in set pieces than in logical plotting.

But Ernesto Gastaldi called this a "cheat ending"

because Sam Dalmas can't remember what he saw

in the opening scene until the very end,

so it's all based on -- Gastaldi's point was that,

you know, when you do a "Oh, I remember now" ending,

you're using a plot point that could have been used

at any point during the entire movie,

so you're creating suspense by false pretenses.

So let's talk about story versus art direction.

The viability of the illogical storytelling in these movies.

And you're up, Sam.

-The answer, Joe Bob, is, who cares?

-Okay. -This is...

uh, one of the most pleasurable thrillers,

one of the most pleasurable giallo,

one of the most exciting to watch.

It's the cementing of Argento.

The legacy he went on to have after this

was not diminished by an ending

that some may consider illogical and some may not.

So whether the ending is a cheat or not,

ultimately, it doesn't fucking matter.

This movie rocks

and also leads to an incredible explanation and motivation

that I think is also the beginning of Argento starting

to tool around with reflexivity and metatextual layers,

especially with respect to the painting

and identifying with the killer,

which is an argument that would come for decades,

especially as you enter the slasher genre.

So it doesn't really matter.

-Okay.

Rebuttal, Lars?

-It must be nice to have the privilege

to say a thing like that...

...to say to all the hardworking people

who take their family out to see maybe one movie a month,

to say, "Oh, it doesn't matter, dude.

It's so cool!"

Those people have invested this time

in this story, in these people.

And then it comes to the end of the film.

And it's a completely nonsensical like,

"Hey, you guys, get out of the theater.

It's over. This is how it all happened."

Everybody watching this is like, "Well, this guy, he saw that.

That can't be what happened, right?"

And so we're going through all these machinations like,

"Oh, well, when they announce the solution to this,

it's gonna be good.

It's gonna be good." But instead, what happens?

Argento looks at it and he goes, "Oh, it doesn't matter, guys!"

And now, 400 years later,

Sam Zimmerman says, "Oh, it doesn't matter, guys."

It still hurts those people

who bought those tickets,

and it still hurts audiences today.

-Does it hurt them because they were confronted

with the fact that their own memories are deceitful?

-Ooh! -Ooh!

-Well, that's a wonderful way to go back

and try to save yourself and to save your hero, Dario Argento.

But the movie, the ending of this movie, Sam,

still does not make sense.

Is this thing on? Yeah.

-Okay. -It doesn't bother me.

-Alright.

Now, everyone...

Please defend or criticize the ending where he says,

"Oh, now I remember what happened in the first scene!"

And the controversial --

the overall plotting of the flick.

-The point of his distorted memory is that it's fed by cues

that we all sort of have subconsciously,

that the woman is the victim,

that the person in white is the good guy

and the person in black is the bad guy.

Sam Dalmas is not just, like, forgetting something.

He's completely misinterpreting something

based on his own cultural training.

That's what makes this movie so subversive.

-What's his cultural training?

-All the things I just said.

That you automatically assume

that the woman is the helpless victim.

You automatically associate white with good

and black with evil.

So he didn't really interpret what he saw.

It's not just that he didn't remember.

-This is an amazing point,

and I would like to ask that we cut that out.

-And furthermore, um...

I sort of wish that Argento had been allowed

to use his originally intended --

Well, what was gonna happen

is that Suzy Kendall gets her head cut off.

-Mm-hmm. -And I think that an ending

with her dying savagely

would lend a lot more meaning

to Tony Musantes whole journey with this

and his sort of increasing rabid,

morbid fascination

that completely supersedes, like, his sex drive,

and it unlocks all his creative blocks and everything.

If he gets punished for it by this radical decapitation,

that would have been a lot stronger.

But apparently Tony Musante and Suzy Kendall

conspired to not have that in the movie.

-And Argento couldn't seal the deal.

-Troy, you got to jump in on this.

-He dropped the ball for sure there.

If he would have been a stronger,

more assertive filmmaker like Mario Bava,

he would have seen that ending through.

He wouldn't have been talked out of it.

It was his first time at the camera. I get that.

I understand. But I'm not gonna make excuses for it.

-Is the ending a cheat?

-It's a bullshit cop-out ending is what it is.

-Is the ending of "Bird with Crystal Plumage" a cheat?

Uh, yeah. We'll leave that to the audience.

-Think about all those Roman children

that went to see that film. -I know.

-I agree. I agree.

-Right now 16 million people are, like, laughing.

They're like, "Is that a cheat?" Yes, of course that's a cheat.

-Of course it is. -Alright. alright.

Um, time is up.

I think that...

I'm gonna go 6-4 to the Bavans on that.

And so that means that would give the Bavans 30,

and it would give the, uh...

Oh, wow.

That would give, uh, Argento 30.

We're gonna end up with 30-30 at the end of the first movie.

And so -- Alright. -It's hot in here.

-I want to add that Argento stole most of the plot

from a 1949 crime novel by Fredric Brown

called "The Screaming Mimi."

And, uh, even though Argento claims

he wrote the script in five days

while doing automatic writing in a hotel room,

it turns out he actually wrote it

in collaboration with Aldo Lado,

who would become his assistant director on the film

and then go on to make films of his own,

including "Short Night of Glass Dolls"

and one of the most critically acclaimed

of the gialli, "Who Saw Her Die?"

And then, of course, I should also point out

that "The Girl Who Knew Too Much,"

made by Mario Bava in 1963,

also has a main character who witnesses an attempted murder

and eventually realizes the person

she thought was the victim was actually the attacker.

Um, so, anyway...

"The Bird with the Crystal Plumage" was a hit in Italy.

Actually played for three and a half years

in one cinema in Milan.

And it was a modest hit in the rest of the world.

It started the avalanche of gialli coming out of Italy

in the years 1970 to 1973.

But now we're gonna fade back six years in time

to the Mario Bava film "Blood and Black Lace"

and ask the question,

had that avalanche already been gathering steam since 1964

and Argento just tipped it over the edge?

Or was "The Bird with the Crystal Plumage"

really that revolutionary?

We're kind of breaking our format tonight.

So rather than doing a mailbag,

I'm gonna write letters.

I'm gonna speak letters to our Team Argento panelists,

and they're gonna tell us what they know.

So, Claire, you run the New York branch

of the Institute of Miskatonic Studies,

which sounds both academic and a little goofy

because it's a take on H.P. Lovecraft's

fictional university where half-crazed academics

search for forbidden, esoteric knowledge.

Is that what you're doing?

That was a lot of words.

Um, let me -- let me try to reorder some of them.

It's the Miskatonic Institute of Horror Studies.

It is routinely confusing to people

that we are not a Lovecraft specific organization.

I also run the, um -- primarily now the online branch,

which means that I can have guests from all over the world

and connect them with audiences all over the world.

Um, this semester I started with an event that I like to call

"Everything you always wanted to know about 'Nekromantik'

but were afraid to ask,"

which is a feature-length interview

with the great Jorg Buttgereit. -Wow.

-And then, um, November, I have, uh, Erica Shultz,

who wrote a really terrific book called "The Sweetest Taboo,"

which is a survey of child deaths in horror movies.

-Okay. -So, um, yeah.

We have all kinds of stuff.

Did that answer your question?

What was your question? -Well, I think so.

The Institute for Miskatonic Studies.

Go online and check it out. Right?

-Go online and check it out. -Okay.

And, Sam, uh, we've never really talked about this,

but when you go to film festivals

and film markets and film events

looking for Shudder-worthy movies,

do you have to like the movie before you decide to buy it?

Or do you occasionally say, "I hate this movie,

but the horror faithful just might go for this movie"?

-I love all of my children equally.

-You love all movies that you --

You don't love every movie you watch.

-The point of Shudder and the team who works Shudder

is preferably we do enjoy the movies we work on.

I think that is what hopefully distinguishes us.

-Okay.

So you do have, like, your own,

like, place in your brain

where you go, "I just can't support this movie.

Even though it might score points with the crowd.

I just can't support this movie."

-I appreciate all of our films.

Okay.

-Alright. I guess that's it

for the first half of Battle for the Black Glove.

I'm Joe Bob Briggs speaking for Darcy the Mail Girl

when I say that we've been busier than a one-legged man

at an ass-kicking convention lately,

but we're never too busy to listen to your comments,

your thumbs-ups, your thumbs-downs,

and your what the hell's?

So keep sending them. We do read them.

And "The Drive-In" will never die.

What do you call sweaty boobs, Darcy?

-I don't know.

-Humidi-titties.

-Aww.

You have people to laugh this time. That's awesome.

-I went to a haunted bed-and-breakfast in France,

but I had to leave.

The place was giving me the crepes.

-Y'all want to grade him? Points.

-Yeah.

-I asked the hotel receptionist for a wake-up call.

The next morning, she rang my room and said,

"What are you doing with your life?"

-Oh. Okay.

-Alright. I have one more. -Okay.

-You know why I love Bruce Lee?

Because he studied art and poetry

and decided the most beautiful form of self-expression

is punching somebody in the face.

-Yeah.

-Should have led with that. -That wasn't really a joke.

-You're on a roll. -It's a truism.