Original subtitles

Can I say, for listeners and viewers, there's going to be people that have

opinion on this.

Okay. I was, and remain, open to have been wearing the leather

trousers.

It wasn't my decision, but I was open to it.

I think you would have looked amazing in leather trousers.

And we did try and darken the hair. You did absolutely.

Welcome to the fourth episode of the Walsh Sisters of Fitzgerald podcast.

I am Stephanie Preissner. And I am Marion Tease. And joining us today are

multitasker Ian Fitzgibbon, our director, also Mitch.

Correct. Yes.

Yes. The graveyard lurker.

No, no, no. Queery ghost.

Yes. Queery ghost.

I would say the graveyard sympathiser.

Sympathiser, that's right. Yes or yeah.

I mean, let's put it right. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And sitting alongside me, you

can't smell him, but if you could, I'm telling you it's a treat.

Yes. J. Duffy, our wonderful Luke, welcome to Marion's house and to our

Yeah, thank you so much. Woohoo!

This is very exciting.

This is Luke, who's Rachel's boyfriend.

Ex -boyfriend.

Ouch.

I just want to say that I'm sorry.

You know how many times I've heard you say sorry, Rachel?

But I mean it this time.

I'm making amends.

I've got your questionnaire here, Luke. When we asked if Rachel took a lot of

drugs, you wrote, I doubt that the drug Rachel hasn't taken. What did you mean

by that?

That if there was a drug going, Rachel would take it.

No matter who gave it to her or where they come from.

Like what?

Speed, ecstasy, cocaine, and

heroin.

That was one time.

Most normal people never do heroin, Rachel.

So we just listened to a clip there of you... We watched a clip.

Didn't we? We watched it, but some people are only going to listen to it as

podcast, so they might have just listened to it. But if you want to watch

podcast, you can find us where you watch things. But anyway, you were doing your

tough love thing, Jay, Luke.

How was that for you?

To watch it?

Well, also to do it. I'm also conscious that was your first scene that you shot,

right? It was.

Wow. Oh my God, baptism of fire. Yeah, I remember the panic the night before we

did that one.

Yeah, it was the first scene and I was petrified.

That wasn't really fair, but it's just the way things go. It's the way the

schedule works out, isn't it?

Yeah, the first take, as expected, was a bit nervy, but we settled in pretty

quickly, didn't we?

I think.

I wouldn't have known. I mean, Steph reminded us, but I wouldn't have

known that was your first day. I actually thought,

I know we spent a bit of time on it, and I'm glad we did, but I thought it was

really compelling, and I thought you were very, you sort of struck a really

lovely balance between having to be tough with her, having to be very blunt

her, and then also admitting to being hurt. Yeah, I thought you played a

blinder. Also, you're quite well put together, which helps.

So when we look at you, you look very nice.

That's lovely.

I mean, because it is a very hard job for anyone in that position

because you're in there because the person you love has an addiction.

And I think most people, when they manage to kind of get their person into

rehab, they think the magic will happen while they're in there and I no longer

have to do anything.

And then the person realizes that actually they have to go in and sit in a

with the person they love, but also hate.

say cruel things to them.

And some people are very, very angry and they're only delighted to say the cruel

things. To get it off their chest. Yeah. And just to kind of, yeah, because

they've been, you know, having such a hard time for so long. But even those

people, sooner or later, start to cry because it is so exhausting and painful

and confusing. It's very confusing.

And you did such a lovely job.

Thank you. You know, and you spoke.

You know, you spoke gently.

That was convincing because most people, they're terrified of hearing their

voice. Well, it's a conversation we had before we started shooting. I was like,

for Luke as a character, is he someone that would be comfortable speaking in

front of a group of strangers or is that something he'd struggle with? Because

that was my entry into how is he going to deal with this situation?

You know, it's obviously very daunting. You're bringing up a lot of private

stuff and you're looking at the person you love who's...

in this place trying to get better.

And how do you go about doing that? So I kind of just was lucky that it was my

first day in a sense because you just use that nervous energy that I'm feeling

on set because Luke is probably feeling the same thing going in there and

divulging such, you know, horrendous things to a group of strangers. When I

people who, when I was researching kind of the public perception of these books,

to adapt them. I spent a lot of time on Goodreads. Marion has Reddit threads.

Marion has her own fan club.

You have, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that as well because I spend time on those as

well. Yeah, those people are, these are the people I am most terrified of in the

world because they have ISO.

I bet you are. Me too.

So people have, and this ISO, this moment where in the book, it's Luke and

Bridget actually who come in to kind of confront Rachel, I guess.

Bridget doesn't exist in the TV show.

Anna is an amalgamation of Anna and Bridget.

This scene really stands out to people. And so I wanted it to be as close to the

book as possible because we chose not because I chose not to do voiceover as a

format for the show.

We don't really get an insight into what Rachel is thinking.

But I think Caroline did an amazing job of capturing that. But would you read a

little bit from that chapter in the book so we can see how great a job I did?

Yeah, absolutely.

And when you you lift, you know.

Some of the words I've written are actually in it.

Yeah. Let me see. Okay.

So, can you tell us your relationship to Rachel?

Josephine asked Luke.

Boyfriend, he mumbled.

I mean, ex -boyfriend.

So you were ideally placed to witness her addiction?

Yeah. I took a crumb of comfort from Luke's apparent reluctance.

A few weeks ago, you took the trouble to fill out a questionnaire on Rachel's

addiction. Is it all right with you if I read it out to the group?

Luke shrugged uncomfortably and I felt as if my stomach had flopped down to my

toes. Anytime you like with the earthquake, God, I begged silently.

It's not too late.

To my alarm, Josephine produced thieves of paper. It looked like Luke had

written a book.

Right, Josephine cleared her throat.

The first question is, what drugs are you aware that Rachel uses? And Luke has

written cocaine, crack cocaine, ecstasy.

I wanted to die. There would be no mercy. Luke, my Luke, had undeniably

on me.

There had been hope right until that second, but now it was gone.

Speed, hash, grass, magic mushrooms, acid, heroin.

Someone gasped at the heroin part. For God's sake, I thought angrily. I'd only

smoked it.

Valium, Librium, prescription painkillers, antidepressants, sleeping

appetite suppressants and all kinds of alcohol.

She paused and took a breath.

Luke has added a postscript to this. It says, if it's a drug, Rachel will have

taken it. She's probably taken drugs that haven't been invented yet.

So, yeah, like you, absolutely.

And actually, I think we've cut some in the edit, but I do think that there was

a bigger long list of drugs. There was. There were more drugs.

Point to the challenge of a book by Kelly, you know, that's really... But

heroin one is important.

I mean, that's the one that upset everybody.

That's the reason the book bombed in the States.

Bombed in the States? Bombed in the States, yeah. Because you took heroin?

and they couldn't, couldn't, couldn't get on board with the person who took

heroin. Wow. What?

Yeah, I mean, over the years, it has sold in a different way. Yeah. But when

came out, they were expecting it to be huge.

And people saw the heroin bit and they were like throwing holy water at it and

then setting it on fire probably.

Not literally.

No, I know. Not literally.

Now maybe they would.

Now they would.

Absolutely they would. Yeah. I think it speaks to something that we were talking

about in a previous episode.

Just about our...

the expectations of women and female characters and the pink coversness of

book and how you were able to get people to read these books

and relate to a character who they then realised had taken heroin, which made

them look at themselves in a different way. Yeah.

I just think it's so smart and something that I kind of kept saying to Ian all

the time.

Pink covers, pink covers. We have to hide the vegetables in the sauce.

That's right. The Trojan horse.

Yeah, you can't, you have to like kind of trick people because some people, I

think particularly with the place that we're in, Sunday night, 9 .35, a lot of

people are like, I just want something now before I go to bed. Yeah, because

next day is Monday, the worst day of the week.

Yeah. Yeah.

And so kind of have, you know, nice little opening number.

Nice opening credits and then bam, Luke is in.

Yes.

Can I also say, Luke, you were very good at crying.

I know you're an actor and everything.

I had someone behind me off camera just pinching me.

Like it was really moving.

Well, I will say that was the joy about locking eyes with Caroline.

Everything just felt between action and cut like I was there.

and I believed that she had done all those things and I believed how hurt I

feeling so not to say it came easy but you know when you get that

lovely mix of things that just feel right it just naturally comes out and

lovely feeling to have as an actor when you're not trying to force something

Yeah, it was. That's the danger with a scene like that. You know, you don't

to try and force something that's not there. No, you didn't. I mean, it just

felt like how awful it was for you. How sad and how hard it was. Because he just

wants her to be better. That's it. You know? Yeah.

And he can't understand why she's continuously behaving in this way that's

so damaging to her.

And their relationship.

And I love that.

I was so touched, first of all, that you asked me kind of for tips on how to be

Luke. And you have completely got that, that he is just a very, like he's a

straightforward, uncomplicated person. He doesn't do sort of damage.

He's not a damaged person.

And he just doesn't understand what it is to be somebody like Rachel. And like

he loves her and he desperately wants to help her. And that's where his

frustration comes from. He doesn't get it.

But I think it's interesting that you're able to play that without him being

this sort of boring, very sort of made up. Like he's able to have a good time,

but he's like, why do you always take it so far?

Yeah, I'm no angel, he says.

But can we not just like go out and have a good night? Why do you always end up

like this, you know?

And that's, I think, the interesting character of Luke that you've created

he is this.

And we, you know, we see him through Rachel's perception. So we see the sort

like the real men and the leather trousers and the things about him that

easily poke fun at. But the fact that he is uncomplicated.

And kind.

And kind, which to someone who, well, doesn't believe that she deserves

and is very complicated, is very, very arresting.

You know the scenes, there's kind of a montage at one stage.

where Rachel is absolutely out of it and she's kind of stumbling around the

place and you keep catching her and picking her up and kind of protecting

found that really sad.

It's just addiction is so horrible.

He's always there to pick up the pieces with me because he cares about her.

Yeah. And he is always there. He's dependable. And this, obviously, this

of behavior has just been a part of their relationship for...

probably as long as they've been together.

And where we pick them up and meet them in this show, it's a boiling point.

And I think that her not waking up is the one time where he's

actually like, no, this is enough now.

Because if this continues, she's probably going to die.

But no one else is at that stage other than him. So there's a frustration with

Anna, let's say, or anyone else that doesn't actually see what's going on.

Am I going insane?

Or can everyone else see that this is only going to go one way? Yeah. So he's

angry. And I think when he says ex -boyfriend in the ISO meeting, he's

putting on, it's the first time he's not letting her believe he's going to be

there. Yeah. Because he's always there. Yeah. So maybe he needs to let her

believe that I'm not going to be here anymore until you fix yourself.

Yeah. Strange kind of exhilaration in that.

Yeah.

I mean, I have somebody close to me who went through recovery.

And one of the things that I couldn't get over was that that person had to sit

in front of me and couldn't walk out.

And had to listen to your truth. For the first time ever.

Exactly. I was able, and I sort of got high on it.

You spoke about that in the rehearsal. Yeah, I didn't.

I was emotional, but I was kind of, it's weird to say, I was kind of excited.

Well, they're being forced to listen to you for the first time.

Well, it's because I was never able to have any kind of conversation about what

was really going on without that person storming out. Okay, right. But now you

had to, you know, what do they call it? There's a framework and a structure

around it.

And the person even said to me, do not spare me before I went in.

Don't spare me. Oh.

Yeah. So I would imagine that that's, Well, I know because I've sat in a lot

Al -Anon meetings where people who have an addict in their family will go.

That part of it was amazing for me to be able to sit and confront somebody with

what I went through as a result of their addiction without them storming off. I

found that more so in the Mammy and Daddy ISO that we saw last week than

one where I found like actually this was, he was almost tormented by the...

power that Josephine had given him to say the things where he's just kind of

like look this is what happened and I just I can't I can't do this like I'm

actually done this is that you could see how traumatized I think he was from her

behavior whereas I kind of got a sense that Mammy Walsh was a little bit high

yeah the opportunity the opportunity to tell Rachel how terrible she is and I

thought what was really good about the way Carrie did it was For a moment, she

felt that decorum was going to win over truth.

So she wasn't willing to admit.

She said, well, if I'd known.

That's what happened to my daughter. No, no, no, absolutely not. But then she

just cannot help herself.

She just has to, because we all do in the end.

She just has to let rip.

I remember in the book, in the book, feeling so sad. In the Mammy and Daddy

in the book.

You just feel so sad for Rachel because Josephine is saying to them, tell me

something good about Rachel.

And they can't. Like, they don't. They're like, oh, she can sing. Oh, no,

that's not. That's Claire.

Rachel can't sing. And you have this internal monologue from Rachel where

like, please say me. Like, please say something positive about me.

And because, you know, I've said this before, but we couldn't do that. And the

real estate of having one ISO with Mammy and Daddy to get through all this stuff

and the Easter egg, we didn't really have that.

But I do remember feeling so sad for Rachel in that moment. And I do think

we captured that. And I know I'm kind of harking back to the last episode, but I

feel like the way the ISOs are set up, it would be very easy to have Rachel

continually interrupting, as she does in the books. And Josephine is like, this

is your time to listen, be quiet, whatever.

And Rachel kind of bursts out like, what about your drug use?

that you could come out feeling that she's like a petulant child.

But I think what you've done, Jay, and what Caroline did allowed an audience to

both be horrified that she did heroin, but also feel quite sorry for the

situation she's in. I think all of us can imagine how horrific it would be to

have our loved ones confront us in front of other people about how awful we are.

Yes, hello.

Yes, it was.

OK, well, thank you for writing it, because I think, you know, we have

from your mistakes and now we don't have to do it.

Exactly. Yeah. Don't be like Marion, kid.

Unless you're a budding writer, in which case very much be like Marion.

Let's move on to the graveyard scene where our director and star comes into

own. Let's have a little watch.

I actually haven't properly cried yet.

Mm -hmm. Is that where are you? Yeah, I'm a crier.

So it must mean something that I'm not.

Must it?

I didn't cry for months when he died.

And then our dog died.

And I couldn't stop crying.

Yeah, maybe.

Maybe it just hadn't hit me fully.

Yeah, maybe.

Yeah, but then sometimes I feel like I can't breathe.

Those waves pass.

Promise.

And then, of course, some other bullshit comes along and overwhelms you. Never

fucking ends, really.

I'll leave you to it.

Oh, Mitch.

Well done, you.

Before we get to talking about Mitch, do you want to know something very, very

strange? Yes. So when we were shooting that, that's a real graveyard that we

shot in.

And there's a grave behind Anna and Mitch that is out of focus that you

see. But the name on the grave is Mary Walsh. Stop it! Which is Mammy Walsh's

name. And I remember sending a picture to our production planner being like,

sorry. Have you done this? Is this real?

And she was like, no, no, no, that's just a grave. I was like, okay.

To JJ, can we please keep this in soft focus?

Because it's very strange. Wow. But yeah, all of those.

I didn't know that. Yeah.

You're lovely.

Yeah, you're absolutely lovely. Well, can I just say?

Yeah. First of all, I want to thank Steph.

Because she's very...

I think what happened was I was reading opposite actors who were auditioning all

the time.

And Steph then turned around to me and said, you have to be in this.

And I was kind of going, I don't, I'm not sure that's going to work out.

But see, you know what she's like. She doesn't let go of an idea.

And then I pinpointed this guy and I said, make him 10 years older. And she

said, and I'll make him gay. Otherwise it might seem too creepy to be with a

young woman. And I said, perfect.

But even watching that now.

It was such a gift to do with Louisa, who is, I mean, honestly, I just

think she's amazing.

She's so grounded.

Grounded, yeah.

She makes the best choices. She takes very little direction.

Even her hood being up, it's just so sweet and sad. The register of her

the slightly out of focus eyes, the never indulging in any emotion, only

to wrestle.

with whatever's going on inside her. And I think that business of wrestling with

something is what keeps her alive all the time as a character, because Anna

could so easily just be a mope and be boring and be tearful. And, you know,

so we spent... Remember we did that reading. We did a reading of the first

of the episodes before we kind of changed. Louisa wasn't there. Louisa was

there. But someone was reading the stage directions. And in the early reading,

it was like, Anna cries.

Anna cries.

Anna is sad.

I walked, I left, it was raining in London. I left the reading. I walked

the city centre to Islington.

It took me an hour and a half and I was just pacing and I was like, this can't,

this is not right. This isn't right.

What can I do? Which with all the crying and all the... Just the one noteness of

Anna.

So then I was like, I'm not going to let her cry.

She's just not going to be able to cry. How about that? So she can't access

those feelings.

And then I turned right and basically I walked into oncoming traffic and then I

was like, maybe we can have this. And that's how it all came about.

And I think that that's grappling. Yeah, because it would have been so one note.

Now, really hard for Louisa to play, but I don't think there's another. I mean,

I have to say, really early doors.

What was amazing for me was having what I would say the two pillars of the story

was casting Caroline and casting Louisa. And once they were in, I felt they were

the first things that I believed. Caroline was the first thing I really

believed. I thought, and of course, I have to say, because it was so closely

linked to something I went through, I sort of recognised something there that

really chimed with me. That is what it's like. Her physicality was absolutely

extraordinary. Anyway, so that was...

Caroline on the one hand and then Louisa. And knowing that we had those

place for me was huge in terms of building out from that world and getting

Luke and, you know, our Maggie. I think Helen was the next person because we

needed, like, if those two were going to be playing those roles. Yeah, well,

Helen's our secret weapon. I mean, she's my favourite for sure.

You can talk to her whenever you like. She will never let you down.

Oh, she's always been Helen.

Her timing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How she blends into something and you think she's doing

nothing and then you watch and you go, wow, she's just extraordinary. But to

back to Louisa in that scene, right? Or Mitch, who you're going to talk about.

What was amazing for me was I haven't done proper acting for about 20 years,

say. I trained as an actor. I was an actor, as you know. Yes, the most

priest in Ireland.

So for me to then be able to be in a scene one -on -one with such a good

I just relaxed.

So all I did was listen.

And that's an amazing feeling to know that you're with somebody who knows that

character inside out, who's so grounded.

I found it really, and we have a wonderful cameraman, and I just said a

single, single, anything else you can suggest to me? We'd agreed the framing

the graveyard bit at the end, a week before that.

So everything felt very, all that felt taken care of.

And just to be able to do that with Louisa was, honestly, it's a career

highlight for me.

That was my question for you with that scene. How difficult was it to juggle

between the director's hat and then acting?

Well, you had a lot of the shots set up from the record. Yeah, but it was, yeah.

And then you were just able to be present then. Did you shout coupe?

Sorry, for listeners who don't know, at the end of a scene, a director will

typically say cut so that you know that scene is over, we're going to start

again. But Ian, it's slightly European.

He was raised in a number of...

European countries and speak a number of languages. And he decided that he would

always cut in French.

I didn't just decide.

It's been happening for 20 years.

Well, at some point you might have decided.

It makes me sound like you're such an idiot if we say I just decided on that.

So you would just hear coupe.

Yeah. And it's so bad that my daughter, who was in the film business, was very

bright and much more capable than me, came on one afternoon to observe what we

were doing.

And she heard me shout Copé and she said, oh my God, I am so mortified

going to have to stop.

Sorry, two other things happened. One, Samuel Anderson worked with you a decade

ago. Samuel Anderson, who plays Aidan, Anna's dead fiancé.

And he was like, he's been doing that for 10 years.

Then Theo, who plays Damien, is Ian's amazing son.

And he was on set with us one night and he...

heard coupe and he's like i'm gonna have to talk to him about that like that's

gonna have a word yeah but it just didn't so but did you shout coupe in

scenes like so you and anna are in the middle of a scene she did she did she

oh i love that i love that she did a couple of times anyway yeah she deserves

yeah i mean i can't i can't say enough about um our cast and this is probably

the first time i publicly get to say it so i just want to say i'm going to get

Quite emotional. I don't know why that is, but wow.

You know, those sisters are just so phenomenal.

Absolutely phenomenal.

And I think they honour the spirit of your book.

Completely. They inhabit those characters in their own very specific

Steph has kind of reimagined them for modern day Ireland, and I think she's

that so brilliantly.

But whenever I see, I remember a few weeks into the shoot, whenever...

I remember sitting in one of those caravan things with staff going, you

watching assemblies, I realised that when two or three sisters are gathered,

Jesus is present.

And I really feel that the dramatic stuff is amazing. I mean, they're so

brilliant. But actually what makes me feel like a really good director is when

watch the so -called ordinary stuff.

Two sisters lying down next to each other in the bed, just asking each

why were you in a graveyard?

Why are you depressed?

Are you in bed all day? Those scenes for me are

there's just something so authentic and funny and

sad and utterly dysfunctional.

And it's love. It's love.

And they hold each other. But by God, they never stop at each other. They

stop. Not the joy of it for me. It gives the whole show this kind of

And I think what Steph and I did early doors was we cast it really well.

Yeah, no, I agree.

Because they're all very, very different. They are. But they are

aligned.

When you watch the show, Marion, because, so as we were saying kind of in

episode one.

What did you say to me? I made the vertical horizontal.

Yeah, the books are verticals. Okay. They're kind of standalone.

They're not connected to anything else. They're fully detached.

Yes. And it's like you made each vertical kind of lie down and you

stacked them on top of each other and you squashed them down and made them

longer. Like a cake. Like a cake. But I'm just wondering, so like for me.

When I read your book, for example, The Mystery of Mercy Close, which is Helen's

book. Yeah. It's very dark, like very, very dark in like in the way that I

Like I could take darkness all day long. It's like in my blood.

And Anna's stuff, the second half, like you deal with these really, really dark

issues, but in these kind of light, polite ways.

How do you feel like the tone of your book, the five books, like do you feel

like.

if you took all of the books and blended them up, the tone would be similar to

the TV show? Or do you like the light and shade balance?

I think the light and shade balance is very good.

I think it's perfect because it is very, very funny.

Rachel's story is given full, you know, depth and breadth and Anna's.

And Clare, you see Clare after Clare's initial kind of wound.

Claire is fundamentally grand.

Do you know what I mean? Claire is not a dark person. Claire is fine. Claire

knows what Claire likes. And pretty much Claire knows what she doesn't want.

Yeah, for sure. And is doing her best with the apps and with the doctor and

everything. You know, Claire is the least dark.

Yeah. And then Maggie.

Yeah, you see, Maggie is such a kind of a fundamentally good girl.

And yeah, I know what she wants. We know what she wants.

She's trying really hard.

I mean, I do think Helen's book is definitely the darkest.

And I think we see signs here that Helen is not going to manage

regular life.

Very well. No, like, you know, when Anna says to her.

Are you not going to college? What college? She goes, college, college. She

goes, oh, that college.

Yeah, no college today.

Lying. And just, A, I love it because, I mean, I completely identify.

She's so cute about it. But I like this depressed person saying, no, the world's

too hard.

Spending the day in bed. Then, like, hours later, Anna comes home and she's

still there in bed. And she says, sometimes I just need to be horizontal.

and I just think, I don't know.

She semaphores something for those of us who need it.

Helen gives us that kind of signal.

You've written some of those dialogues so well. You really, really have.

So well. Yeah, I think we know, okay, anyone who's read the book of Helen

how dark it is. Yeah. It hasn't got that dark.

No, it hasn't. And it can't. There isn't room.

There isn't in this season. There's too much going on. Yeah.

You guys wait and see. Oh, yes. You wait and see. Because I said in episode one

that I imagine all these sisters like faders on a sound desk.

Yeah. And in season one, Anna and Rachel are up to ten.

Claire kind of comes up to maybe a five. Maggie comes up to a four. And Helen's

kind of teetering around a three. But by God.

And I think audiences will want more of that girl as well.

Also, Tires can do anything.

Yeah, Marie Tires. Tires, I love that. Yeah, and the thing is, with any group

people, any group of real people, you can only have so many people having

dramas. Everybody else assumes a lesser position. I mean, there's a kind of a

human hierarchy.

And if you don't have the energy, if you don't have the fabulous...

the really disastrous story. You're not going to be the one that everyone's

listening to. You're going to slot in further down the scale.

Guys, you are being great contributors. We're going to keep you on and we're

going to talk about some other characters after the break. Yes, you

approval. You're allowed to stay.

We'll be back.

Welcome back to part two. We are still here with Ian Fitzgibbon, our lovely

director and Mitch and Jay Duffy.

who plays the fabulous Luke Costolo.

Let's talk about this clip. Have a listen.

Okay, so a bit of concern.

Have you not noticed anything yourself?

You know, I don't see any fathers out there.

No one is asking them what their child's shoe size is or what they may or may

not have noticed.

Kate's short -sighted.

She needs glasses.

I'm going to refer her to the optometrist.

That's all.

Right, sorry.

I don't know what came over me there.

It's okay. I've seen worse.

And you're right.

We almost never see any dads in here.

I'll tell you what came over you, Clare. The patriarchy is what came over you.

Ian and Jay, as our two, you know, resident men.

How does Clare's story resonate with you? Jay, you can go first.

Well, it's funny. I was talking to Danielle.

I think...

It was our first week of shooting.

And I was like, oh, it's a shame that we don't have, you know, too much to do

with each other in these episodes.

And I said, just so I know, what does Claire think of Luke?

And, like, immediately she just looked at me and said, oh, no, she doesn't like

Luke.

I was like, oh, okay.

Yeah. No, there's something.

I think it's a men thing. Don't take it personally.

But Luke, keep an eye on him.

And I was like, oh, okay.

Interesting. Because I was trying to map out in my head, you know.

How does everyone feel about you? Yeah. Yeah.

What is my dynamic with each sister? Yeah.

And me, you know, loving Luke and being protective of Luke. Luke's a good guy.

Luke gets on with everyone.

You know, there's no drama.

That's funny. It reminds me of the therapy sessions we did.

Yeah. Yeah. To define relationships.

Yeah. Yeah.

Don't get into that.

I love in Anna's book where, like, Clare is coming home from London to tell Anna

not to get married because she eschews marriage and marriage is a stupid thing

to do. Yeah, it's cool with patriarchy. Yeah.

And it is. I think that... Although, may I just say that in later books, I know

we're talking about books and we're here to talk about the show, Clare very much

likes Luke. I know. Oh, he's great.

He has his redemption.

Indeed he does.

Yeah, but I mean, he totally objectifies him.

It's very, very wrong, really.

But yeah, no, so she does like him by then. Good.

You tell Danielle. I will, I will, I will. I'll put it in, I'll put it in,

put it in.

Nothing like a little bit of kind of incest. I mean, you're kind of a member

the family. I love Mammy Walsh's relationship with Luke.

I do as well. Like kind of flirting with him. Yeah, also, but like Daddy Walsh.

I like Luke.

Luke has got real.

My favourite line in the tune. The best line in the whole.

Six episodes.

And when I found out that Aidan Quinn was going to be saying that, I was like,

wow, I wish I was on set that day. What did you say?

Riz.

He's got Riz.

Yes. The guy's got Riz. The guy's got Riz.

Not you hanging out with Aidan Quinn, taking him golfing then. Yes.

That's your little moment. That's the highlight of this experience, yeah.

Quinn is a better golfer than me.

Wouldn't be hard.

Well, you know, he's had decades more. He's got years on me. Yeah.

How do we feel about, I'm kind of interested in Claire and her

motherhood versus Mammy and what we've seen of her relationship with

Because what we've seen of Mammy is like, I'm kind of done with all this

parenting, like get out from under my feet.

Yeah. And I wonder about how Clare finds it, which is basically she's doing it

on her own, although the family are helping her.

But she just doesn't really have a maternal bone in her body. And she's

in a world where it's expected that women do.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

I mean, bear in mind that she had her child and on the very same day her

left her. I mean, so that's a kind of a fairly unpleasant introduction to

motherhood. And then...

I mean, I don't have children, so forgive me. But like, apart from loving

an awful lot, and people do seem to, it's very boring.

Like, I mean, I love my nieces and nephews, but like, all of that thing,

down on the floor and doing the same thing for the thousandth time, it's

know, we'll turn on the telly now and I'll just doom scroll for like eight

hours. Like, it is awfully hard. You know, there's so much time that I want

be in my own head.

And then, And then the broken sleep and everything.

That kind of wrecks with your moods and all. Like, I'm not saying that I

wouldn't love to be a mother because it was something I really wanted, but it is

hard, hard, hard, hard, hard.

And, you know, paternity leave is available, but men don't take it. Like,

of babies are still pretty much regarded as a woman's job.

And there are some men who are just so wonderful with bringing up kids.

And they don't get that opportunity because it's not regarded as something

you try out for.

So, and there are plenty of women who want to be in the workplace and who want

to not be taking care of the house. And they don't get that opportunity either

because people are like, who's babysitting your child if you're here?

Yeah, exactly.

You know, so.

And I think it's, I just think it's so, I haven't seen a character like Claire

on screen.

Like I've had two children since working on this show.

With my second, I had like three weeks maternity leave and people often tilt

their head and go, my God, you were straight in. I could, if I could have

three days, I would have taken them because I find it so stultifying.

Like I feel like I am drowning.

Obviously, I love my kids. Yes, I love my kids. But for me, motherhood is a

relationship. It's the relationship I have with my children, but everything

around it.

the crash calls, the emails, the GP visits, the vaccines, all that stuff,

screen time limits and all of that. I hate it. I hate it so much.

And when you say that in public, people think you're a terrible person. You

wrote an amazing speech.

Is it an episode three? It's not a spoiler. We're on the bench, on the

bench. No, it's an episode five. Oh, then I will keep my... I can't keep

Okay. Yeah, it's really hard to keep track. But you'll see it in the next

episode. But basically, this is all to say that this element of Clare's

storyline, I think, is about to be turned up in volume a little bit. And I

it's an important piece. Yeah, because what you're differentiating between is

the relationship of motherhood and the job of motherhood. Yeah, and it's not.

It's like basically everything else apart from the relationship.

should be a shared burden.

And it is a burden, you know, and it is a burden. And it's not because I don't

want to do it. I did want children. I do want children. It's fine.

But it is.

I mean, I'd love it to be boring. I don't find it boring. I find it

exhausting and full of fear. I'm like, oh, God, another.

I have to brush. I'm just so responsible for so much.

Three meals a day for the rest of their life.

You know, brushing their teeth.

If they get cavities, it's my fault.

Right. If they have mental health issues, it's somehow going to be my

That will be. Yeah.

No matter what I do. Yeah.

Anyway, this is not a parenting podcast, but... I feel so out of my depth right

now. Well, if you ever have children with someone, Jay, I'm just telling you.

They are just in line. They are in line.

Yeah. It's not a walk in the park.

Actually, there is a lot of walking in the park. So much walking in the park.

I was going to Steph, and when my dad was dying, because we were texting each

other about it, she was saying how tough it was with the two kids, the spell

she's going through at the moment. And I was saying when my dad was dying, he

asked for his five children, he asked for his five babies to gather around

And they always remain that.

Babies. In some fundamental level. Yeah, yeah. They're your little people.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I texted back saying... He didn't have to brush our teeth beyond

nine, neither did my mother.

Yeah, but nine years, Ian. Sorry, yeah.

Brushing another person's teeth for nine years. Two other person's teeth. Two

other people's teeth. Yeah.

And if you don't, it's somehow reflective, you know? Yeah, yeah, I get

Sometimes just out of spite, I don't brush my own teeth. Yeah. Because I'm

I've brushed... Yeah, you've brushed enough teeth today.

I've brushed enough teeth today.

Anyway.

Yeah, poor Clare. I don't want to sound like, yeah, poor Clare. I don't want to

sound like Mammy Walsh.

Because I don't, and I would never want my children to hear this podcast or to

know that that's how I feel.

But it is how I feel. Do you think that Mammy Walsh enjoys, do you think that

Mammy Walsh likes the girls? Like, I know she loves them and, you know, we

love our kids.

I think she's bored.

And she has more energy now than she used to.

I think also like with Anna, my own mother is very good when any of us is

injured or sick.

Okay. Yeah, that's when she kind of shines.

Yeah, so like Anna's in smithereens like so.

You know, Mammy Walsh is loving all this and giving out the tablets every day

and changing the dressing room, you know, saying what the doctors are saying

all that. She likes that.

And like she's appalled when Anna wants to go back to New York because no, no,

no, you have to stay here and let me mind you forever.

Yes, OK.

That's insightful. Like that kind of says that she, well, to me, that says

she likes to be needed when she deems the need necessary. Yeah, yes. Or when

it's worthy of her.

love and care. Yeah. Whereas being an addict is a bit of a nonsense.

Well, no, I mean, that's horrifying.

Yeah. You know, that is absolutely horrifying for her to contemplate. Yeah.

God, Mammy Walsh.

But to be needed gives you meaning.

Yes. And gives you power.

Yeah. So the mother, if you feel, if it feels like you're kind of drifting,

especially in the later years, to then be actually vitally needed must be There

must be some sort of pleasure in that.

I'm still your mom.

But we have the scene when Anna's in the hospital and they're all looking on

Google Maps and she's like, we're just trying to give her some comfort. And

Helen's like, you wouldn't try a hug, no?

Yes,

she wants to be needed, but in a practical way.

She isn't an affectionate person. She isn't.

You're absolutely right, she isn't.

my mother is complete opposite to mammy walsh yes yeah and i can only have that

experience to judge mammy walsh you know yeah all i know is that side so when i

see some a mother who's like that i'm like wow i couldn't imagine what that's

like or the scene in episode one when i just remember filming it at the birthday

party when claire puts on mammy walsh's clothes and

You know, Maggie's sitting back eating crisps and Mammy comes down and she's

sitting with her arms across the sofa and Clare's lying in her lap. And you

could see how uncomfortable Carrie was.

She wasn't going to be like stroking her hair or anything. She was just like,

are those my clothes?

Yeah, but like fair play to Carrie. You know, this was how she internalised and

played the role.

And I mean, you can even see it in her face.

She's very kind of twitchy. You know, she's quite highly strong.

Yeah, for sure. And like everything is kind of like.

Another, another abomination. Like, you know, what's happened now? Like her

whole body energy.

The rigidity. Yeah, the rigidity. Yeah. And like, it's funny. She, she has done

that. You know. Those are choices for teammates. Because as a person.

She's not like that.

Can I say for listeners and viewers, there's going to be people that have

opinion on this. Okay. I was and remain open to wearing, to

have been wearing the leather trousers.

It wasn't my decision, but I was open to it.

I think you would have looked amazing in leather trousers.

And we did try and darken the hair. You did absolutely.

You did everything.

We did. There was no pushback from you. Absolutely not.

I mean, I love that. In my defense, you know, your final speech from the doc.

In my defence, I would have worn the trousers. I was excited to wear the

trousers. I mean, come on.

I mean, if we won, if you won, I still think it says something else in 2025.

We discussed this the other day, yeah.

Like that if somebody turned up wearing leather trousers now, we'd all laugh at

the person. Unless they were a policeman getting off a motorbike, I have serious

questions about that person's character. I think the only people, men, who wear

leather trousers are probably in their 60s who used to be in bands when they

were in their 20s. And they know no better. Yeah. My dad still has a pair.

Well, there you go. There you are. I mean, I think that says all we need.

Yeah, that's it.

Does he wear them?

No, but we... Special occasion.

Yeah. We salute your dedication to the craft, Jay. We absolutely do.

And I think Caroline was in a previous episode and she said that she believes

that Luke and Rachel are like the Roth and Rachel of the literary world. I

think that that is untrue. And I think you did a phenomenal job stepping into

shoes that

Marion's fans had made so huge and almost impossible to fill in a way that

please everyone.

But I hope you're so proud of what you did because I think you're incredible.

Well, that's very funny to say. Thank you. You did such a wonderful job.

Thank you.

And thank you for joining us on the podcast. Thank you both for joining us.

is really lovely. And Ian, thank you for joining us.

Thank you. Little Mitch there in the graveyard.

We will wait with bated breath to see if we see you again as Mitch in the next

episode.

Oh, yeah. Because people don't know yet.

They don't. No, they don't. But they will if you tune in to RTE next Sunday

night, RTE 1, 9 .35pm. And our podcast will go live straight afterwards,

wherever you get your podcast.

At night, straight afterwards.

Yes, straight afterwards.

Thanks for listening.

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