Original subtitles

Good evening, and welcome to National Theatre Live.

I'm very pleased that tonight we're bringing you the National Theatre's

collaboration with the groundbreaking physical theatre company, DV8.

Tonight's show, John, is like much of their most recent work, a verbatim

piece. It's based on first -hand testimony, which is given to you

DV8 is, what its title implies, a physical theatre company, and they deal

that testimony in a way that is unique.

unique entirely unto themselves.

They deal with it not just through speech, but through music and movement

well. And it is their experiments with form that have made them renowned

throughout the world.

The subject matter of tonight's show, John, is, as so often with DV8, raw,

uncompromising, and won't necessarily be to all tastes.

But for me, it is a work of great integrity and fierce power. I very much

you enjoy it.

Before I formed DV8 in 1986, I'd worked as a dancer with four companies and with

28 different choreographers.

Increasingly, I began to feel frustrated by the disconnection of what I was

being asked to do on stage compared to the richness and complications of the

real world I observed beyond the dance studio.

And however impressive the moves and athleticism might have been that we were

doing, ultimately, I felt we were conning audiences about the depth of

were supposedly presenting.

If you want to address social, psychological, human issues, and I do,

huge limitations.

The term physical theatre better describes the work I do. There are less

restrictions and rules about what is admissible under this banner.

So I can invent, access, manipulate and combine whatever I like, be it

pedestrian or naturalistic movement, circus girls, film, dance, song or text.

Any means necessary.

to find the most appropriate way to say something, be it about religion, freedom

of speech, sexuality, power abuse, class inequality, disability or themes like

the pursuit of happiness or the role denial plays in our lives.

The company's early work was physically combative, masculine and angry.

By 1990, fatigued by the bruising physicality, I decided to change tact

work became more poetic and imagistic.

We started incorporating bigger and more elaborate sets to advance our

narratives.

After more than two decades of experimenting, shoving and pushing

every direction, I felt I could no longer adequately express ideas I needed

in movement alone without resorting to words.

I was also tired of making fictional work, so I started interviewing people

about their lives and using their words and their stories, while still

maintaining a commitment and passion to movement.

And gradually, a hybrid form of theatre emerged, incorporating what is known as

verbatim theatre, with DVA's own very physical and specific way of moving.

I expected to focus on fewer stories in this work than the last two verbatim

works. However, it wasn't until John walked into our office to be interviewed

that it became clear the work would be dominated by one man's story, his story.

The words you hear spoken on stage by the performer who plays him belong to

and no other character.

Apart from John, we only used five of the 15 interviews. All the characters

portrayed on stage are real.

The work is a personal perspective, not a collage of opinions nor a social

survey about men's views.

on love and sex.

Like all the other men in this work, we found John in a very specific place,

unknown by most.

Like John, they were all searching for something, be it love, escape,

validation, sex or company.

There was my brother Nicholas.

He was the first.

And then Karen.

And then Ronald.

And then me.

John.

There was about a year and a half between each.

And then Simon, my younger brother.

There was eight years between me and him.

My father was kicking the hell out of her.

She was seven months pregnant.

She lost the baby.

Twice that happened. In them eight years, she lost two children.

My sister, when she was growing up, she was quite big.

And my father, he sort of ridiculed her about it.

He nailed the bedroom door shut.

He locked her in her bedroom to stop her from eating.

Stop her from getting fat.

While he was at work, we went to his toolbox and we chiseled a hole between

bedroom walls so we can feed her through the hole in the wall.

Yeah, that was going on for weeks and weeks.

He tied my brother to the bed once.

And he beat him with his army belt.

Those big green canvas ones with the brass buckle on it.

I remember him bleeding from his ears.

The only times my mother went out was when she went to play bingo.

And she came home early one night because she'd won some money at the

Yeah, she threw him out.

My mother, she was a shoplifter.

She used to take us out and use us as cover.

I mean, she used to shoplift to order.

We had the neighbours come round asking her if she could get the school uniforms

for the kids for next term.

She'd go and nick all the school uniforms and sell them half price.

When I was eight, my mother went to labour to give birth to my brother

At that point, the neighbour came round to babysit me and my brother and my

sister.

It was then that my father broke into the house and...

Yeah, he raped the babysitter.

He got three years in prison for that.

It was quite a high -profile case at the time, and Bob Monkhouse, he used to do

the Golden Shot on TV.

They always used to come on and make a joke at the beginning of the show, and

said who he were and made some joke about, if you fancy a bit and you want

keep in the family, you should pop around our house.

So, yeah, it was pretty grim for me.

My mother kept me off school and we went to Liverpool prison to sign the divorce

papers.

That was the last time I've seen my father.

It was quite stressful.

The social services got involved and they put me and my brother Ronald in the

care and left her with the baby and my sister.

I was just like 10.

When I went into care, I was quite pleased, to be honest.

I'm going to fucking kill myself.

Yeah, do it quietly.

We're trying to watch TV.

I used to get on really well with my mother.

Before she moved to London, she was all right.

She did six months in prison for credit card fraud.

And when she came out, they gave her a flat.

She got abuse off the kids on the estate, so they moved her.

She got quite a nice, trendy little soft terraced house in Clapham North.

There were three of us living in the house together.

Nicholas, my mother.

and me.

And then she started drinking and became a bit of a recluse.

She used to just sit in her armchair and watch the TV all day, drink bottles of

sherry and get stoned.

Life became purposes for her.

She'd sit there all day, go to bed, get up, sit there all day, go to bed, get

up. It became monotonous.

We used to argue with her quite a lot and she used to throw us out.

And we'd go back a week, ten days, two weeks later and she'd be missing the

money. So we take her a bottle of sherry or some cash and a box of chocolates to

sweeten her up a bit. And she goes, Yeah, all right then. You can move back

We had this argument. We get kicked out.

And she'd been missing the rent. So a bottle of sherry and a box of chocolates

and then... Yeah, all right then. You can move back in.

So it was a regular occurring.

We knew she'd been there for nine days because...

The newspaper was open on the kitchen table on the Monday.

The Monday was the 14th.

But we didn't find her until the 23rd.

An overdose.

Obviously, she had persecuted herself for all that time because of what

between the father and my sister.

I felt really, really bad, not understanding what she was going

It was then that my drug use got a bit heavier.

Yeah, I started using quite a lot.

Yeah, quite a lot.

Yeah,

I met my brother's fiancée's sister, and we had a two -year relationship, which

resulted in the birth of my son.

It was my first real relationship, my first real home, together with someone,

and I thought, this is it, yeah, council flat, I'm on benefits, I've got a kid.

I've cracked it, you know.

18 and stupid.

Yeah, but we split up, went away into both, though.

Young offenders in 1980.

My son was only six months old.

I didn't ever see him again until he was 20.

When I came out, I met Sandra.

My first real love.

Yeah, we were on and off for about ten years.

Yeah, I did write a list one day of all the girlfriends I had.

And all of the names ended in the letter A.

How bizarre was that?

I mean, there was a girl called Anna. And then, as I said, Sandra.

There was Katarina, the wife.

Vanessa. Yeah, Vanessa was about six months.

But then she went off to America.

There was another Italian girl called Linda.

Yeah, she was a bit loopy.

A couple of weeks.

Ah, Sylvia.

87 to 90.

And her friend Barbara.

Bloody hell.

In the back of a taxi. Yeah, I suppose she wondered what her friend Sylvia had.

Yeah, I guess it was cheating, but we never talked about it after that.

I had loads of girlfriends.

There were about eight of them all together.

And then there was Hazel.

Oh, that doesn't end in an A.

Hazel.

I had sex with her sister, Tina.

Oh, there's another A.

I just realised that. I was like, Tina, fucking hell. I was like, what?

I lived with Hazel for a couple of years, but then she told me I got her

pregnant.

But when he was born, he was mixed race.

You're a dark skin, aren't you, John?

No. But, you know, what could I do?

I love the girl.

I couldn't just throw her out in the streets, you know.

Yeah, I raised the boy like me own.

Yeah, I was using heroin at the time. I used to sell all her jewelry and spend

all her money.

Yeah, it wasn't very nice for her.

I remember one day coming home and there was a policeman outside the door.

And he said to me, she's packing all her stuff up and she's moving out.

I don't think she was going with anyone else.

I just think...

She had it all.

You know?

My brother Nicholas, he was a troubled guy.

Him and his girlfriend were so deep into heroin and stuff, they just neglected

their kids.

She dropped the baby.

It was only four weeks old.

The baby's injuries were more than I thought, you know.

He had a shaken baby syndrome and hemorrhaging behind the eyes and

skull. Broken rib.

You can't do that to your kids. It's not right.

So I grassed him up to the police. Ah, you fucking grass.

You fucking grass on your own brother.

Well, look at what the fuck he's doing, man.

Anyway, he got arrested.

He got eight years in prison for child neglect.

I sort of distanced myself from him because of what happened.

Nick is out of prison.

He uses heroin and he overdoses.

Obviously, his tolerance is not what it used to be.

I didn't even go to his funeral.

Was he cremated?

Was he buried?

I don't know.

It was soon after that that the house got busted by the drug squad on two

different occasions.

I got evicted.

Eventually, I ended up on the streets, you know, nowhere to go.

I was seriously addicted to heroin and seriously into drink and living in bin

sheds and under bushes and sleeping in doorways and garages.

You can come and crash with me. I know where there's somewhere we can sleep

tonight. You know, I know this nice little alleyway bin shed.

Under the bridge.

I was sleeping rough for about five years.

Around about that time was when my brother Ronald crashed his car and died.

So, yeah, I was pretty depressed at that point.

I mean, there was Caffe Nero, Jack of Potatoes. You just go and knock on their

door and they give it to you.

At seven o 'clock, they used to come out with big bags of sandwiches.

Then there's Greggs the Baker's at 4 o 'clock in the morning when the van take

all the stuff away they didn't sell the day before.

You just go and help yourself.

And there's a Greggs on every high street.

Then there's a little drop -in center.

You can go for breakfast there between 7 and 8 and lunch there between 10 and 12

and then 1 and 2. So, yeah, there's places.

I used to stop people on the streets.

Have you got a comment or quit?

I tried sitting at the cash point, but I couldn't do it.

I used to go cycling around the streets and looking into skips and picking up

little bits of lead and little bits of copper wire and go down to the scrapyard

with that.

It was about £40, £50 a day, which used to fund my drug habit.

I used to spend all my money on heroin and crack and alcohol.

At one point I was drinking 30 cans of Skull Super a day.

I got pissed off because I didn't even get drunk.

Yeah, I used to keep all my bedding and stuff in there, and I used to stash...

Yes! You asshole!

Yes, my man! Yes, my man! You're gonna kill him!

You're gonna kill him!

I've never been attacked like that before in my life.

I've got a scar down my arm here where it sort of chopped me across my arm and

across my back and my leg.

They got me assessed and got me put into Cedars Road Hospital where I felt safe.

I mean, they had doctors there and nurses and drug workers and key workers.

In the hospital situation, I started getting my life back on track.

I wasn't using drugs. I was sticking to my methadone, doing group therapy

sessions.

I set up a drug group for people with drug and alcohol issues.

I mean, there was a core of about ten.

And then each week we had two or three, four come in.

At one point there was 20 of us, which was great.

I mean, they had a needle exchange in there, so they knew the drug use was

prolific. I mean, these guys were injecting in their necks and in their

and some of them lost their legs and some of them lost their arms.

It was a distressing place to be.

Over a period of about 18 months, 14 of them died.

And that's when I started to disengage and started to worry about my own sort

mortality.

I turned to food instead of using drugs as a way of suppressing my depression.

I was diagnosed with depression.

My room was next door to the kitchen, so I was just... gorging out on food

constantly.

And my weight went up to 25 stone.

I got quite friendly with this girl in the hospital.

Bianca.

There's another A.

Bianca.

I used to call her my wife because we were that close.

With Bianca.

It was somewhere I can go and escape and talk about anything.

I really connected with her, you know.

She was only 31.

She was HIV.

She wasn't taking the medication.

For a couple of months, you're really ill before your body starts getting used

to the drug.

And she was, ah, fuck it, you know.

Can't do it, you know.

Don't like it.

Throwing up every day.

So I went to stop taking it.

That's when she got really bad.

Yeah, really bad.

She used to drink clear cider, which is poison.

Well, all alcohol is poison.

She got jaundice and her liver was packing up, so she went to Chelsea and

Westminster Hospital.

They've got an HIV unit there.

When we got there, there was all these tubes and wires and... It

was a horrible sight.

There were about four or five doctors and nurses around the bed.

Oh, you can only see for five minutes.

Yeah,

I broke down again.

We were really close, me and Bianca.

Babe, look at the fucking state of you.

She discharged herself from the hospital because she said she was feeling

better.

She came back, started drinking again and...

All her legs swole up and all her skin became ulcerated and there was a really

horrible smell when we changed the bandages.

She could hardly walk.

She got really ill so we phoned an ambulance and they put her in a

and wheeled her out of the hospital.

Come visit me.

No, I ain't come visit you.

Not after the last time.

We looked at each other and we knew that was it.

She went in on Saturday and died on the Tuesday.

Yeah, I really miss her.

Do you want another coffee?

Yeah, I'd always buy something.

Even if it was a loaf of bread or a pint of milk or something, I would buy

something.

I'd always chat to the security guards and the cashiers and the tellers and

that.

I was always pretty well known.

I might do a bit of work in Sainsbury's Clapham and then Sainsbury's Ballam.

You think?

I recognise him.

Hey, where are you working today?

Yeah, I'm going to Twickenham.

There's a new store open in there. Yeah, I'm going down to Bluewater or up in

Chief or Duty Free.

I could spot the shop security guards.

If it's raining, they haven't got a jacket on and their clothes are not wet.

They never put perishables in their baskets.

There's no fruit or veg in there. It's all tinned or bottled.

Every couple of months, they change stores.

And you pick a little tip stop from others.

It's like a little community of shop fifties.

Fat -packed salmon is always a good one.

Meat or salmon steaks or something like that.

They're all flat and easy to conceal.

High value.

Both of those periods used to be a good one.

Until they put those electronic tags on.

How's your missus?

Yeah, she's all right.

I used to go around there every day.

Are you all right? Are you all right, babe?

Yeah, I'm fine.

I'd leave.

One day I went round there and he wouldn't let me in.

If you don't open the fucking door, I'll blow it off!

He was an abusive alcoholic.

So I'm thinking he's beat her up and he don't mean to see what he's done to her.

So I threatened to shoot the door open.

Pick up this replica machine gun from a skip and... Anyway, I got nicked for

that.

The judge said...

Me thinks I'm reading a script from the bill.

Because it wasn't drug or gang related, but just some stupid domestic.

Nine months.

Otherwise you'd be looking at five to ten years.

I've got 28 convictions for 65 offences.

One offence against a person. That was when I pushed a policeman or something.

Two offences against property.

Criminal damages and 30 thefts and 12 fraud offences and... Eight offences

relating to police, court and presence.

Which is obviously failing to turn up to court.

Two drug offences.

And one firearm, shotgun, offensive weapons.

Seven miscellaneous offences.

What else?

Driving offences.

Yeah, I've got a lot of driving offences.

Credit card fraud.

Yeah, I was just using someone else's credit card.

I was busy that day.

48 different places I used that credit card.

I stole it out of the post of some empty house.

We were looking for a squat, and there was loads of post piled up under the

letterbox. So, went through it, opened it, and there it was.

The person didn't exist.

It was a piece of plastic, really.

It was mine.

I owned it.

If I see something, I just go and I steal it.

Just for the hell of it.

Not that I needed it or wanted it.

Just for the boss or something.

Because I could.

It was just the way I was brought up, I suppose.

You've been positively identified as being the man who did this.

Police Sergeant Jenkinson has seen you with the sofa alight in the middle of

this woman's room, trying to light bits of paper with a lighter.

He's asked you to drop the lighter, to which you've said, you're going to have

to kill me because I'm going to set the building alight.

Why would you say that?

I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't remember any of this.

I swear to God.

I was charged with arson with intent to endanger life on two counts.

And section 20, wounding a person with intent to endanger life. The accused

should expect a considerable amount of time in prison, if not a life sentence.

I was going to prison for something I never did.

I just couldn't get my head around that.

I couldn't. I just... I know I've been a naughty boy most of my life.

Shoplifting and burglary and drugs.

This just wasn't me.

No.

But obviously it wasn't me who did it because when I woke up in hospital, I

covered in blood.

And there was blood on my hands and stuff.

Hair blood.

The judge gave me six years for the first count of orphans, six years for

second count, and 18 months for the section 20.

Ruining a person.

Thirteen and a half years. Whoa, whoa.

Wait. My client was advised not to put in a guilty plea at the beginning of the

trial until the original charges had been revised.

Because the charges needed to be changed from arson with intent to arson

reckless. Because I didn't plan it.

The psychiatrist said I did it recklessly.

Basically, it wasn't my fault.

This is the psychiatric report.

She said... There was no criminal intent.

He had been feeling depressed about the death of his friend, Bianca, and that...

In that week, another friend of mine's wife died.

So I go and I spend all my money on heroin and crack and alcohol.

I get no sleep on Saturday and Sunday.

I got my benefits on the Monday, so I had another session on the Monday.

On the Tuesday, I go and see my doctor for my prescription for my methadone and

my sleeping pills.

Yeah, I had a bit of a row with my doctor because he wouldn't give me any

painkillers.

That was knackered.

I could barely walk.

25 stone. I was in pain.

Ah, fuck it.

I'm just going to take a couple of these sleeping pills, and by the time I get

home, they would have kicked in. I went to the shop to buy four beers.

He asked me to go to the shop and get him some beers.

Go super.

Buy myself one.

He was opening the cans of beer and just pouring them down his face, just trying

to drink it and missing his mouth completely.

He took all his pills.

He sat there and took them one after the other, saying, fuck it, fuck it, fuck

it. Let's have some more. Let's have some more. So, it was more than a couple

tablets.

Yeah.

Fourteen.

Took the lot.

And that was about 11 .45 on the Tuesday, the 10th of August, 2010.

And that was the last thing I remember.

Before I woke up in hospital on Wednesday night, seven o 'clock.

The psychiatrist's report on the day of my sentence saved me.

She said, The accused does not have a history of violence, save for one

incident. So his alleged actions do appear out of character.

The drug types are well recognized as causing amnesia and have psychotic side

effects. But you still took the drugs.

You still went on that binge.

You still did it.

They dropped the charges to you reckless rather than with intent.

So that's why I got off pretty lightly.

He took a third of everything and he gave me a four.

A four.

And a one.

And he stuck it all together and just gave me a five.

Which was nice of him.

I was about 24 and a half stone. More than 50 % fat when I first went to

And my metabolic age was...

76 years old.

How are you doing, John?

I'm doing really well, but I'm addicted to something.

I'm using it every day.

Twice a day.

I'm loving it. I'm getting a better buzz out of it than any drug I've ever took.

What are you taking?

Exercise.

Weights. Curls.

Squats.

Dumbbells. Bicycles.

Rowing machine.

Tips for the medicine ball.

Have it on the running machine.

But walk.

But I start jogging.

Started losing weight.

It was great.

I've got this little printout from the machine.

They measure your fat, body mass, muscle.

That one's 20 stone.

17 stone and 5 pounds.

16 stone and 9 pounds.

In about a year, I lost 10 stone.

When I left Brixton, my weight was 95 kilos, which was about 14 and a half

stone. My metabolic age was 47 years old.

So, I got a few years back.

Do you need a passport for domestic flights in this

country? Why? Where are you going?

Well, I fancy flying to Newcastle. Why do you want to fly to Newcastle for?

Well, I think my son's in Sunderland, and that would be the closest airport.

Oh, well, that probably is.

So I got in touch with the chaplaincy, and they referred me to the Salvation

Army Family Finder Service and asked them if they can find a son for me.

I told them the story. I haven't seen my son for 12 years.

I've only seen him once.

Since he was six months old.

That was when he was 20.

So, he's 32 now.

We found your son, John.

He's in Newcastle.

He's agreed for you to have his details, and we passed your details on to him.

Wow.

What?

Yeah, so...

I phoned him up and it was pretty emotional. He was like, Dad, well, I

want you in my life.

I came to London from that house that I went to before, but, well, you weren't

there. And nobody knew where you were.

He told me he cried all the way home.

It was his engagement party the night before.

He was getting married.

I was with my fiancée.

She's got two sons and he's got a son.

You're a grandad.

You've got a three -year -old grandson.

I was watching this TV show the other day called Family Finders and, well,

was this black guy in there who says he hasn't seen his father for, like, almost

15 years and he's getting married soon and he would love if his father could

come to his wedding.

Like, wouldn't it be nice if I could find my dad and my dad could come to my

wedding? And actually, the postman arrived with a letter from the Salvation

saying, your father's looking for you.

That was so weird.

The weirdest thing is, I was watching that same show that same day.

He sent me some photographs of him and his missus and the kids.

He wrote letters to me. I told him on the phone. I said, look, you're my only

surviving family member in this country.

You know, I got nobody.

I've done something pretty bad.

My actions have caused a lot of stress to a lot of people.

But it changed my life around.

Don't worry about it, Dad.

You know, at least you're getting better and, well, addressing your issues.

That's all part of the project.

I really want to be part of your life.

He was up for that.

Yeah, I was on such a high.

They were looking for, yeah, mentors to sort of interview the guys to come into

prison and see what their needs are.

So I thought, yeah, I'll have some of that.

Signed up, passed the course, got the job.

They gave me a list of cell numbers and I go round and knock and open up the

door.

I introduce myself and ask, what services do you require?

Do you need your rent paying?

Are you earning benefits?

And blah, blah, blah, blah.

So I quite enjoyed that.

When a prisoner was leaving, I had to do, like, an exit.

Do you need any ID?

Do you want someone to meet you at the gate to keep you on the straight and

narrow?

Sometimes I'd say goodbye to someone on a Friday, and then I'd open up the door

on a Tuesday morning, and he was there.

What the fuck?

He goes, yeah, I didn't get to the end of the street, you know.

I got the case.

I had an argument with the police, and, well...

I got recalled, and rah, rah, rah.

Some people I'd seen three or four times.

And I thought, that ain't a life for me.

That revolving door ain't happening for me.

I want to put all that behind me. I want to live a normal life, what's perceived

as normal by you middle classes.

So I enlisted in the Open University.

Done a distance learning course in health.

Halfway through the course, I lost interest and I missed the call stage

ASA.

With help from my distance learning coordinator, my coursework was brought

on track.

I received the results from the Open University.

I passed with distinction.

How about that?

What the fuck's going on?

They wouldn't let me ring my son's number. I can't really discuss it. Your

he said he'd write to you.

What's going on? Do in my head and... Hasn't he contacted you?

Nah. Oh, well, I'll have to tell you then. Well, he googled you and he didn't

like what you'd seen. He phoned the prison and said he didn't want any

with you.

The story in the papers, it's not bad.

The photographs are pretty grim, but the story ain't bad.

He misrepresents me.

They haven't got the charges right for a start. I mean, they're still writing

arson with intent to endanger life.

I had to sign this paper saying I can't phone him, I can't write to him, I can't

get any third party to conduct him on my behalf.

I came to the conclusion that because he's got a missus and kids, he don't

some mad arsonist living in the house.

When we set up our storm, it didn't work. For quite a long time, we were

broke. And we lived in a bunk bed in the office. We're about to go under, and I

think... Well, I think the turning point... It was when we asked ourselves

it is that we actually sell. And what we needed to sell.

Is it busy?

Because it's the number one asked question.

Is it busy? What's your maximum capacity?

How many lockers do you have? Not how many people, how many lockers. Because

that's indicative.

Because they want to know how many people could possibly be there at one

But it also depends on what you say. Because if the queens see you offer a

discount between certain hours, they go, ah, that's when it's not busy, not

going then.

Some of our competitors still do that, stupidly. We don't.

What we sell is busy.

It wasn't just us saying it, we had to be it. You can't just tell people, oh,

we're busy, because they'll come and find out. So we gave stuff away.

We let people in for free.

We did all sorts of tricks to make sure that, actually, we are busy.

Where people make the mistake very often is they think busy ups their chances of

having good sex.

Actually, busy's not always sex.

My little joke thing is, you know we all rate ourselves on a scale.

Well, I put myself as a seven.

I'm probably a five, but I have high self -esteem.

And I chase after nines.

But I know that if I go to a very busy sauna that's full of nines, all the

are going to be fucking each other.

And it's at seven.

Well, they're just going to be looking over my shoulder.

Whereas, when I go in, it's a bit quieter.

Actually, there are a couple of nines knocking about.

Well, they probably haven't quite connected or whatever else.

And I can pick them off.

So that's the theory of busy is not always best.

The other much simpler thing that we did was the two -day pass.

You can come back for free. And eventually we bit the bullet from the 24

which we weren't to start off with, and that has made a difference. Yeah, but

that did come at a cost.

Because when you go 24 hours, that's when you get the druggies.

And when you've got a 24 -hour path, well, that's when you get the people who

just think that they can live there. We had a Polish boy living here.

He started getting his mail delivered here, at which point we cancelled his

membership.

Yeah, I was out of prison for four or five weeks, and it was like gay guys

everywhere.

Just what you're looking for.

It's like being in a sweet shop.

You all right, mate?

You all right?

How you doing?

It's like being on the fucking underground in here.

Why don't nobody talk to each other? You're sitting in here saying, fuck all.

mean, you're coming to meet somebody.

You fucking talk to people. You might be able to meet somebody.

Yeah, I start chatting to people. It's like I'm a nut or something.

What are you doing here?

What the fuck are you doing here? It's so cold.

It's fucking cold in this place.

Yeah, you get people come in at this hour in the steam room. It's like their

test goes on something.

They come in, have a look around, and go out.

And the guys that come in, they just fucking creep across and touch you.

What are you fucking doing, man?

If you want to suck my cock, talk to me about it.

You can talk to me. What's the matter with you fucking people?

Didn't like it, eh?

Yeah, they all just got up and fucked about.

Yeah, you just go in there and do your business and you fuck off. No one's

bothered about it.

I don't know anybody's names. I don't like that aspect of it.

I think it could be an aspect of intimacy.

For fuck's sake, you get an intimate, oral, penetrative sex, you know.

You don't just do it cold.

In my experience...

Heterosexual places.

Sports places.

Spas. I'd find them aggressive, and you either keep them, or join the stupid

talk about football, or shit about their muscles, or about their training, and

it's like, shut up.

There's no place for me there. It's just rowdy.

Engage, so on.

There's not a lot of chat at all.

Absolutely fucking perfect.

There might be a little chat, but it's not aggressive, and it's not nonsense.

It's quiet, calm, it's attempting, it's respectful. Where in other places it's,

and hanging around in heterosexual chains.

It's just dodgy. Why would anyone hang around? That's not right.

Where in a gay song, it is about hanging around and taking your time.

And I wanted to take my time and hang around.

If I go, it might be from eight hours, six hours, probably more than four

maybe more.

There's one that I'd go to because they have a brilliant roof to sunbathe and

maybe a split on the roof.

Some phone calls.

If I had a day without clients, then I could do a load of work there.

In the winter, I'd be in the TV room reading.

I could spend absolutely hours sitting in the open theme room to warm my bones.

One of the best things about a gay sauna is that no one exists there apart from

me. So it could be work, clients...

Busyness, people I live with, my girlfriend, my family, anything and

that's going on.

When I go in there, my head can empty.

It's not blank. It's just thinking things through and just letting things

And I don't know anyone. I can put up this thing nine times out of ten.

Men know.

If I don't want to talk or I don't want to be touched, I don't want sex or

anything like that.

It's so respectful. It's to listen to.

If I'm not putting out, I can be totally left alone.

It's like... Being invisible.

And if I'm ridiculously horny and my fiancée is away for weeks or something,

then maybe.

My fiancée does know and it's not an issue.

But that was more in the old days when I had the curse of the city. And it's

like, can someone please come up with an original idea?

Something needs to be dealt with because I need to get on with my day.

Have you ever kissed a man?

I must have, but I can't think.

I want to say yes, but I don't remember.

I haven't got an issue with it.

It's not a big secret, so I must have. But I don't remember.

Did you tell any of your other part -girlfriends that you used Kate's

Nah.

One of my ex -girlfriends found out, and she was surprised. And she said, so

where are you with your sexuality?

It's very, very simple.

I would describe myself as straight.

But then, everyone that knows me knows that it depends on how I'm feeling in

moment.

But generally...

I would say straight.

Hi. Hi, babe. How are you?

Not too bad. How are you? I'm good.

Oh, my God. What's that?

I'm doing an interview.

Wow. What's the interview for? Is it recording now? It is recording.

Do you want enough... Hey, is it okay if I go and put a towel on? Yeah, do you

want an upstairs locker or a downstairs locker?

I think 78 isn't blocked by anything. What kind of meat's in there?

It's beef.

Is it?

Well, that's not beef, mate. That's not meat's meat.

I don't know what that is, but the layers between there, I mean, what's

there?

I can't eat that, bro.

It's got no flavor to it, nothing. It's like the bread's so hard as well.

It's fucking stale, man. I'll get it out of the bin.

So the lasagna's no good?

Absolutely not.

If they call it, it's wrong. The texture is wrong, you know.

I'm not Italian, but I know how to make a good lasagna.

No flavour to it, nothing.

Look, it's like fucking... It's like corn.

You know corn?

That's not real fucking beef, man. That's not meant to be. Look, you're

me that's meant to be, man. It's a fucking paste.

What is that?

That's terrible.

I'm really sorry.

Can I get you anything else?

Have you got any cigars?

No, sir.

Sorry, we don't do them.

You're not going to put the lasagna on the bill, are you?

Yeah, that's the deal.

Hi. What?

Have you been here before?

Nah, not here.

Okay, follow me.

The space we're in now, this is like the chill -out lounge, where we keep the

tea, the coffee, and the only non -pervy television, the regulars.

A really nice guy.

They talk more than they shag.

We've got the tennis on now, so if I wasn't doing the interview, we'd be

chatting about the score.

And when the antiques are on, we discuss the prices and all that sort of thing.

It's a bit odd, because everyone's stark bollock naked, except for me.

And through there, we've got, like, the porn lounge.

If you go left... You've got one of the private cabin areas.

And through here, the sling room.

Then there's this, like, giant bed you can fit 15 to 20 people on.

Or more, depending on what positions you get into.

Then there's the steam room along there.

Then downstairs, the shower, sauna, smoking area, and other cabins.

Then we've got, like, the glory hole section, which I think is the weirdest

thing. Because it's basically like three toilet cubicles without any toilets in

them. Just got holes in the walls.

And if you come around the corner, you can see bits poking through.

We have themed party nights.

Well, next week we've got jocks, speedos, underwear.

There's fetish nights, lads for dads, but, like, legal boys.

Tell me about lads for dads.

Well, it's generally a lot of dads.

And the lads are pushing it. What do you mean by that?

Well, you can be a lad at 40 if everyone around you is 65.

Yes. We have ones for HIV -positive men.

It's not exclusive or anything.

There's just no judgment or anything about it.

You can be honest and open about your status, whereas other people might feel

ashamed about it otherwise.

Is it quite like this?

Uh... Completely.

I can't think of an ethnic minority we haven't had in.

And we're like, very transsexual, transvestite friendly.

Basically, we don't really care.

Just as long as we can take their money.

Really, that's the truth of it.

We've been to every sauna in London, and no one has as hot a clientele as we do.

They're young, they're fit.

And they're up for it.

What you're doing is hunting.

Cruising is hunting.

Sex is not about coming.

Sex is actually about the possibility of sex.

It's about body language.

It's about eye contact.

I know, instantly use injected because I catch their eye.

Because they catch mine. And as long as I remain confident, I initiate.

Well, if I just wait for them to respond, it's never going to happen.

So, therefore, I make the first move.

I don't care if I get pushed back.

I strut.

Usually. Oh, well, no, I mean, there is the going to the cock and the grabbing,

but usually, actually, before any of that, I would smile.

It would be a dirty leer, probably, but it would be a form of a smile, which is

to break that ice.

We don't really hunt separately.

We hunt together.

It's much, much harder hunting together.

Well, not really. I mean, it's harder to hunt together if you just want one

person. But generally, when we hunt together, our primary goal is to get the

party started.

So if we're walking to a venue and we're hunting together, then we just go where

everybody is and fuck in front of them. And they will crowd round and wait for

an invitation. And you just say, you, come.

You come, you go away.

And they will come.

And the pushier ones will push in, but for the most part, we've fucked in

from here to Berlin, and most times they wait for an invitation.

And wear it back by.

The people assume that we're a couple. And so they can't touch. And so they

can't get involved.

So actually, a new technique would really be to separate, and then find

other as if we've never met. Oh yeah, that would work actually.

When somebody is bothering me and I'm not interested, and they continue to

bother me, what I do is I speak to them.

I break the rule of non -verbal communication.

Yeah, I'm very flattered.

That will never happen.

Go away.

And every single time you break that non -verbal rule, they will go.

They will never bother you again.

I think there's an honesty in soreness.

As long as you keep your mouth shut, you're just judged by the cover.

That's all this is.

Everybody's walking around and around and around, picking up the book by the

cupboard, which can be an advantage.

Absolutely. All life is there and there, which, it can be kind of brutal, but

can also be quite uplifting.

We have these tiny little digiframes that play porn, literally, to keep your

pecker up.

And most of the time, when you turn the house lights on, underneath these little

digiframes, there's just a smear of demons.

People have just come against the wall watching these little seven inch

You know, you've paid 16 pounds to come here.

Have sex with a human being.

You can watch porn at home.

When we try and close at the end of the night, the last ones would always be in

the porn room, wanking away feverishly because everyone else had gone home.

They at least needed to come before leaving, which is fair enough.

Yeah, I got a couple of close friends, but they don't know I'm gay.

Although, because I'm involved with the prison, I told my probation officer and

my key worker that I go in the sauna.

Because every week you have to write down what you've been doing.

You know, 15 hours of purposeful activity.

Yeah, when I was younger, they used to call me Biker John.

Because of my dispatching days and that.

Yeah, I remember I bought this motorbike off this guy and...

On my way home, I rode past these two guys working on a motorbike. The same as

my old one.

So I pulled over and I go, You all right, lads?

Yeah, I've got one of them at home. I don't use it anymore. You can have it

spares if you want.

One of them was quite hot.

He was ten years younger and he had blue eyes.

And I said to him,

I'll be blunt.

Do you want to come home with me and have sex with me and the missus?

He was like,

Yeah, alright then.

I was like, fuck.

Now I gotta go home and tell the missus.

Yeah, I told Sylvia I was bisexual.

And, um, yeah, she was cool with that.

Alright, mate?

And then there's the poo.

And then there's the poo.

There's always the poo. God. There's always poo. Yep.

The saying shit will happen is just a regular thing for us.

You'll find shit up the stairs.

You'll find shit in the shower.

You'll find shit everywhere except where it's supposed to be.

There's the post -fuck poo, which is falling out of their arse as they're

up the stairs.

There's poo up the walls and things.

I just, I don't know how that gets there.

I mean, the awful one is the jacuzzi poo.

Oh, it doesn't happen that often, which is a relief, fortunately.

But the one that happens a hell of a lot is the shower poo.

Oh, but really, like, big heaps of it.

Which I think is because they probably think they're going to pop a little

and actually it's a little more than that.

In all its time, when we're done with the chat, we've cleaned up. Nobody's

come and said... I'm really sorry.

I did a poo.

It's got nothing to do with them. Even when it's falling out of their arse as

they're going up the stairs.

You have to tell them.

Oh, by the way, you've got shit falling out of your arse.

You can kind of almost divorce yourself from the fact it was you who did the

poop. It is, you see, very dark, so it is possible.

It wasn't me, I'm just showering.

But eventually you just sort of get used to it.

I mean, we were at Cleaner Down, so I had to clean.

But... At the end of the night, we were cashing up the bar, and one of the

cleaners goes to me, What's that on your shoulder?

And I'm like, what?

I look down, and there's this little piece of poo on my shoulder.

And I'm like, that's disgusting, how long's that been there?

And some of the others go, Yeah, that's been there, like, all night.

And I'm like, I've been going around the building with poo on my shoulder, and

none of you thought that might be something you want to mention to me.

And some of the others go, Well, we thought you knew.

And I'm like, why would I continue to go around the building with poo on my

shoulder? on my shoulder. If I knew it was that.

Someone's hand touched my hand and I remember thinking, fuck, that is one of

those things when someone touches you or makes eye contact and it means

something. So I just turned around and there was this blow and he looked at me.

And then I thought, fuck, this is one of those things that you're supposed to do

something. So I turned around and I followed him, not knowing what I was

I assumed because I saw the cubicles and stuff, but I'd never really been in

one.

And he just had the perfect body, which was the type of body that I would have

liked as a kid in school.

So it's like hairless, thin, white, you know, just a normal 70s pop

star body type thing.

Anyway, I followed him in.

Was he kneeling or standing or something? And he had a hard bit and

thought, oh, fuck it. I have to do this.

So I just put it in my mouth, took it out, and thought, well, okay.

That's London.

And it just felt a bit rubbery. And it's like, it's not my thing.

I think that's the only time, actually, that I've ever... Sorry about that. To

be honest, I'm not reading today.

So what are you doing here, then?

Well, just... Hanging out, sitting in the steam room and stuff.

He's like, man, you've got the perfect body.

You know, you've got muscles and you're not thin and you've got hair.

I said to him, what do you want about you've got the perfect body?

That's the type of body that everyone is supposed to have, surely.

And we had a brilliant conversation.

And it turned things around because I went through, I guess, thinking, if I'm

looking at these bloke's bodies, then maybe I'm gay.

But I don't want to touch their bodies or be on their bodies. I don't fancy

these guys.

Then I realized I probably had a good half dozen blowjobs from blokes, but

they've all had this perfect... It was almost made okay by these people who had

perfect bodies.

It's like I want their bodies on my bones.

It's almost like I was vamping the body that I should have had.

It's like the one I wanted to be is sucking me off.

Time just stops in a sauna.

There's no light, just the electric bulbs, and you can spend hours trying to

find someone new, trying to find something a little bit attractive.

And suddenly it's 7 o 'clock in the morning, and you really need to be going

home. And you sit on a bus, stinking of chlorine, knowing that

you've got a couple of people to come inside you.

Going past my school, and...

the last thing you want to do is go and teach 300 or whatever kids.

When I'm in the classroom, I often look at photos of people on sex apps, like

Grindr, which is highly unprofessional.

But it's quite hilarious when you've got 26 kids in the room with you and you're

looking at a picture of someone's cock.

I met someone on Grindr who lived right next to my school.

And it got to four o 'clock and he was like...

Come over.

And I left school.

I went round to his.

I fucked him.

Came inside him.

I got dressed and I walked back into school ten minutes later having just

some boy who lived nearby.

I really like having unprotected sex because it means the guy is willing to

very, very intimate with me.

In a sauna environment.

And it's happened recently.

I would turn someone down if they wanted to.

It's not doing anything for me, so let's leave it.

Or try and take it off and get them to do it without it.

Sometimes they're well up for it.

Other people just aren't interested, so you just walk away and find someone who

might be willing.

I always go drunk to a sauna.

One person could come inside you and you go off, find someone else.

You could keep doing that all night, really.

My God, why am I having sex with you?

Even if they're unattractive and you might not even know their name or having

had a conversation, when you're in the dark, on a mat, in a sweaty sauna,

taken some drugs or having taken lots of alcohol, you're definitely very open

for being extremely intimate with somebody.

So you don't know them, aren't particularly attracted to them, yet

it's intimate.

It was intimate.

They were sticking their cock inside me without a condom on.

That's intimate.

They want to be with me so much, they're willing to do that.

Or they want to be with you so much that they don't care if they give you HIV.

Yeah, maybe. But I think you're missing that the ultimate fact about it is that

I enjoy it.

I really like having unsafe sex.

That is my raison d 'etre.

That's the way I like working.

It's the intimacy.

Why do you really enjoy it?

It doesn't matter.

I actually see a positive in the fact that I caught it, which is that...

I don't worry about catching it anymore.

To me, it's like you get cancer, you stop worrying about the fact that you

get cancer.

Suddenly you know, and I can deal with that. I can move on.

I was actually surprised I didn't catch HIV earlier.

Last time I went to the sauna, I managed to get myself into a room with about

six other guys.

And we all discussed our status.

One of the guys was like, oh, I'm negative.

Let's all have unprotected sex.

And some of the other guys were like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I was like, okay, well, I'm positive, but no medication.

So hey, one of them was only 19.

He was very up for just hanging out with me, and I ended up shagging him quite a

lot and coming inside him.

And because I told him I was positive, and my head was justified, It was fine.

But even if you're not at high risk of passing on HIV, there are other

transmissible STIs that are incurable.

Human papillomavirus, venereal war, genital herpes, new strains of

and in some cases, hepatitis C.

It's possible.

It doesn't logically work like that in my head.

I make sure I take my medication.

I get tested regularly.

My viral load is undetectable, so chances of catching anything off me

very high.

And anyway, in a fauna, they won't know who I am.

They have no way of tracing that back to me.

That's the first thing you'll hear in the cabins.

It's like dealing with a zombie.

They don't feel pain.

Really, just extreme.

They just don't know what's going on. They are dead.

They're just cock.

And their brains are dead.

Stop. Sit down.

Follow me.

Stay there.

One person can't restrain them.

You need to hold them down.

The problem is you hold them down and they'll nod off.

They want to go to sleep, which you'd think would be an okay thing, but it's

not. It could mean they're about to slip into a coma and never wake up.

The problem is that the heart is going slower and slower and slower.

And at a certain point it... You might just stop. You die.

Like that.

And we had a guy die.

I will never forget that.

I can't sleep at night because that happened in my business.

It was from Portugal.

His mother and his brother came because they wanted to see where he died.

He died in a cabin.

With his eyes wide open.

Watching porn.

How can you bring a mother downstairs to show her that?

Look, if it wasn't for G, I wouldn't say we had a drug problem.

A drug, GHB or GBL, has suddenly blossomed.

G is basically the same thing.

You need millilitres to get high.

It's a chemical car cleaner.

It's sold over the internet.

Totally legal.

Incredibly cheap.

It works out about 20 pence for high.

And of all the party drugs, it's the only one that doesn't inhibit your

to have an erection.

As opposed to crystal meth or cocaine or ecstasy, which, well, they'll lower

your inhibitions, but they also lower your penis.

Look, it's really been used. Like, people use pop.

They can't have sex without it.

So, if they're going out to see somebody, their key is their phone,

And what happens with G, though, is if you take just a little bit too much, you

die.

I don't actually think that we have a particularly big drug problem.

We do regular bag searches.

You know, we are doing what we can.

We're looking at motion sensors.

So if you're having sex and moving, the lights are off.

Once the lights are off, they'll open up and kick you out.

In the last few months, we've had about two G -cases per month.

And in that month, 10 ,000 people have come through the building.

And too often are left in an ambulance.

And the majority of our customers are not using drugs.

And there are two reasons that we don't tolerate drug use.

One is because it's illegal.

And the majority of people don't like a messy brain.

It's not very sexy.

And it's not good for business.

How many times have you been to a gay sauna?

Three times.

One six years ago, and one three weeks ago, and one two weeks ago.

Yeah, I'm more the sort of protagonist.

Yeah, I'll make the first move.

But sometimes I just lie in one of them rooms and keep the door open.

Please, somebody just come in and do something to me.

Yeah, sometimes it works.

Sometimes it doesn't.

Sometimes people come in, but they just want to have sex.

Yeah, I'm not really interested in sex.

Yeah, I'd rather.

It's hard to rape somebody with weights of thin walls in a tiny cabin.

Pinning somebody down and having sex with them against their will.

Well, that's never going to happen. Because somebody else will hear. In that

sort of scenario, it's a way safer place to have sex than at home. But what is a

top? When a lot of people are having unprotected sex, kind of against their

will, because, you know, I didn't know what I was doing. I was really high. Or

he gave me this. Or, oh, well, the top didn't want to.

I didn't want to say no.

I don't like confrontation.

Yeah, well, don't have sex.

You know, it's kind of straightforward.

This isn't a difficult equation.

Just don't have risky sex.

You can have as much sex as you like. As long as you always wear a condom. You

know, I've had every sexual experience in the universe.

And I've managed to stay negative.

It's not inevitable.

It's really not.

Because...

It's not about the amount of sex that you have.

It's about the degree of responsibility that you take when you have that sex. We

provide sexual health information. We have HIV testing on Mondays.

All our porn is protected sex.

Rather than unprotected sex.

And, unlike home, we always provide condoms and lube. Yeah.

We're not judgmental if somebody chooses to have unprotected sex.

But...

We abhor the promotion of barebacking. Because it fetishizes something that's

actually just dangerous.

And then there's this whole thing about, oh, well, it's the education,

education, education.

The fucking education has been there.

People choose not to know.

It's not education.

It's attitude that needs to change.

In the space of a year, about five of my friends, all zero -converted, all...

Through stupidity.

I had to sit there with them crying on my shoulder and pretend it's going to be

fine. Because it will be fine.

It is treatable. It is dealable with.

But this isn't what I want for a 25 -year -old boy.

Yes, you can treat it with pills.

Yes, you can. But nonetheless, you've got poison in your blood.

You're going to have to explain that to anybody you're ever going to have an

important connection with.

It's the difficult part. Yeah, but what you're talking about there is reducing

the stigma of being HIV positive. Yeah, exactly.

You've got some people saying you can catch it from anyone. Everybody's got

Yeah, so worry, worry, worry, worry about staying negative.

And then you've got the other people who are saying, oh, look, everything's fine

when you're positive.

So no stress.

No worries.

You don't have to wear a condom anymore. And you can ride a bike and run a

marathon.

Listen.

I don't want to sound like a Daily Telegraph reader, because I'm not.

I am a liberal, but I do genuinely believe that at a certain point we have

say, man up.

Really.

Take responsibility for yourself.

How old are you?

52, and I'm still at it.

No, I'm all right, brother. I'm cool.

You're nice.

You're nice.

What are you doing here?

Come here for a fuck.

Yeah, but you're 52.

Yeah. Well, I'm young at heart.

Look, it's almost 9 o 'clock, and I've got to go.

There's a curfew where I live.

It's a hospital run by the probation service, so I've got to leave before 9,

because I have to find him by 11.

People, they just want to have, I suppose, uncomplicated sex and move on

next one.

I want something a bit more intense, a bit more long -lasting.

I haven't really found any kind of deep, meaningful, loving relationship because

I haven't really had time, you know, of being in prison, drugs.

I suppose that's why now I've got to see if I can find that to make up for lost

time, really.

I'm fucking aching for it, Lloyd, to be honest. I'm aching to find somewhere and

share my life with what's left of it and my love. I've got so much love and

affection that I've never been able to express for so long.

It's painful.

It's painful, man.

And that's why I look on the internet, and that's why I come here, because it's

another door that's opened.

You never know where this is going to lead. You never know if whatever.

I don't know.

I've just got to keep looking, innit?

Just got to keep looking.

My sexuality was a big thing for me for years.

I fought it for a long time.

You know?

Going with women, I tried to control my urges.

But I've done my time with women and I enjoyed it.

But I'm not bisexual.

To be blunt, I like, you know... Deep down, I reckon I'm

proper gay.

Can't change that.

I like male company.

I like sex with men.

I'm looking for a relationship with a guy.

That's what I want.

It'll be a new experience for me to come home from work and find a boyfriend

rather than a girlfriend.

I've never experienced that.

And it's something I'd like to do.

Just to be settled.

You know?

The normality of life.

Just to ask someone you can express thoughts with.