All language subtitles for MV5BMTg0MzgwNDQ0MF5B

Downloaded from
YTS.MX

Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX

- Where were
you when she turned tricks?

And who would be taking care
of you while she was out?

- Well, there's a
lot of women who work

in truck stops and very often

their kids are just there.

You know, we'd hang
out in somebody's car,

one of the people's
cars, you know,

or somebody had a hotel.

Or in the diner, you know,
you'll see a lot of kids

just hanging out in
back rooms in diners.

- JT LeRoy
is a 21 year old writer

with two books of fiction
based on his experiences

as the son of a truck
stop prostitute.

LeRoy's books can be described
as transgressive fiction,

filled with the kind of
emotional and physical violence

and sexual extremes that
he's been exposed to.

In fact, some of the
content of our interview

may not be appropriate
for children.

- In
the spring of 2002,

with JT LeRoy's
notoriety rising,

a friend invited me to begin

a documentary about him.

I'd been working with
the mentally ill homeless

in San Francisco's
tenderloin district

and doing poetry
workshops at that time.

He said that this
Burroughsesque poet

would be right up my alley.

- St. Mary's McAuley is
the adolescent psych unit

that saved JT.

They did some outreach
back when he was 15.

He ended up there, and
he's been in therapy

with Terry Owens ever since.

He's dedicated his
books to Terry Owens,

his psychiatrist.

- I spoke
with Dr. Terrance Owens

on the phone, but due to
patient confidentiality,

he was unable to be interviewed,

and he referred me to
another director at the site.

- Kid were really
struggling and having

just a really tough time
keeping themselves safe.

If they can't contain
themselves on their own,

if they can't be safe,
like if they came in here

and kept cutting or trying
to strangle themselves,

then they might end
up in restraints

which is what's on the bed.

We get kids referred to
us from emergency rooms,

schools, doctors, and
they'll come to us

because something's happened.

They've tried to commit suicide

or they're so depressed
that they're thinking

about suicide.

Then the other big
category of kids we have

are psychotic kids who
are hearing voices,

and having hallucinations.

- His mother
was 14 when he was born.

He spent the first
few years of his life

with foster parents.

They tried to adopt
him, but his mother sued

to get him back when
she was 18 and won.

When LeRoy was 15, his
therapist at a hospital

adolescent psychiatric
unit, Dr. Terry Owens,

encouraged him to write.

So, you started writing stories

because your therapist
asked you to write stories

about your life.

- He kept
asking me to write

'cause he wanted me to write,

and I didn't wanna write.

And he was just
asking me to write for

probably about a year
before I started.

Drugs interfered with
my ability to write.

So I stopped doin' drugs
because I wanted to write,

and it just started takin' over,

and I would go off
from seein' him,

and go get high,
and just do drugs

and just self-destruct

and do very
self-destructive behaviors,

and often end up in the hospital

from doing something
that hurt me.

- Dr.
Owens, how often would

you talk with Jeremy?

- For the first two
years, seven days a week.

- You
talked to him every day?

- Yeah.

- What would
you discuss with Jeremy

on those calls?

I mean, obviously
there's a lot of calls

so it's a very general
question.

- A lot,
a lot of calls.

That's very hard to say.

I can say that my primary reason

for speaking with
him that frequently

was that a very common theme

was his suicidality

and the fragmentation
of his thinking.

- How did
you first get published?

- My work got passed
from writer to writer,

and before I knew
it, I had a book deal

and an agent before I
even had a place to live.

I never once sent out anything.

I never asked anyone to
send it to their agent

or to, I didn't even
know how all that worked.

- One day, the phone
rang in the office,

and my assistant said
there's a 15 year old girl

on the phone identifying
herself as the Terminator.

I thought this is too good.

So I picked up and
indeed, there was someone

called Terminator who
apparently was a boy.

- I got a phone call
from this person.

You know, he was
just saying how much

he worshipped my work
and all this crap,

and then, you know,
that he wrote and stuff.

And you know, just a
very long conversation,

just a very peculiar
and interesting kid.

- I said, "How old are you?"

And she, I thought
it was a girl,

said, "I'm 15" and I thought,

"Oh my God, maybe I
could get arrested

"for talking to this
person about a book

"that deals with transvestite
prostitutes and junkies."

- The next thing I
know, Jeremy called me

- on the phone.
- He ended up

just calling me all the time,

almost every day, you know.

- That started a long

and deep series of phone calls.

- The person on the
other end of the line

made a request.

It's a request I usually dread,

"Can I show you my writing?"

And I said, "Well, sure,
sometime I suppose so."

And he said, "Well,
I have it right now.

"I can fax it to you.

"Do you have a fax number?"

So, I gave my fax number,

and with dread
waited for the text

to roll out of the fax machine.

And when I did, I read
it, and I thought,

"My God, this kid is incredible.

"I can't believe
he's 15 years old."

It was a story about
balloons and heroin.

- He was a 16 year old boy.

I thought it was astonishing.

- Joel presented him almost
like a frightened deer,

a frightened, feral
animal who would bolt

at the slightest
sign of pressure

or intrusion or somebody
trying to get too close.

He was an extraordinary
found object

in the literary
fields, so to speak.

Coming from, it seemed,

places that no one
else was coming from.

- Although
LeRoy is forthcoming

about his life, he doesn't
like to show his face

to the press.

He's photographed with
masks or disguises,

and does most of his
interviews by phone.

So, why do you still
feel it's important

to keep your identity hidden?

- You know, I'm writing
about pretty personal

stuff and to be
out on the street

and have people come
up to me and say,

"I know what you really are."

And be in that position
where they could hurt me.

Sometimes I like to
go out as a girl,

sometimes I like
to go out as a boy.

And I really don't want
that to be an issue

for anybody else except myself.

- Everyone was always saying
he writes like an angel.

That was it, this
idea that it was

this ethereal
vibration coming out

of this wounded creature.

There was such a feeling
with JT that you were

helping prevent
some further pain,

or helping prevent some
further unhappiness

or misery or really
doing a good thing.

It was,

it was a kind of
pleasurable altruism.

- Our conversations
became more and more

intimate on the
level of friendship

until finally, I
felt a responsibility

to kind of look after him.

- I got a series of urgent
phone calls from Jeremy,

and spent the better part
of that Thanksgiving Day

not playing with my
kids, but on the phone

in a long crisis
conversation with Jeremy

that must have gone on
for five or six hours.

- JT might tell me
that he was going out

to seek violent sex,
and I wouldn't be able

to sleep that night
because I would worry

that something terrible
was going to happen to him.

- He would freak out,
go into, obscene to me,

altered states, speaking
in different voices,

different characters.

Really bizarre shit.

- If you look at the
outsider in fiction

and the person who's kind
of representing the margins.

For me, that lineage is
very much a Jean Genet,

William Burroughs,
Dennis Cooper lineage.

These writers have really
kind of kept us thinking

about a certain
kind of darkness,

and a certain kind of
pain, and I think the work

of JT LeRoy definitely
seemed like the next step.

- Can you guys hear back there?

- We're very, very happy
that JT LeRoy is able

to come to Sky Bookstore to make

his first public appearance.

He's a little
overwhelmed at this time

so we'll try to
make the evening go

as smooth as possible.

Here's is JT LeRoy's intro.

I get asked a lot how
come I ain't readin'?

Well, the God's honest truth is,

I never learned how.

Thank you, JT LeRoy

- I wake up screamin'.

- The crow's red wings
flash over my eyes

as he pulls my legs apart.

His hot breath against my neck.

Claws push down my
face into the pillow,

and it's worse than
I ever imagined.

It's a drill blade twistin'
and hollowin' me out

between my legs.

And he cries her
name again and again

in my ear until it bleeds.

- When I first started reading,

The Heart is Deceitful
Above All Things,

and the most profound
feeling that I had was

how much I wanted
to be able to heal

this young person
through nurturing.

How much I wanted
to be his mother,

and to be able to
put back into him

what was taken away.

But when I finished the book,

I was the one who was reborn.

I was the one who
had been healed

by the courage
and the resilience

of JT LeRoy's beautiful spirit.

- I think I'm like a
lot of people in that

I read the books and
I was just blown away.

I read the first one, Sarah.

It had been out for
about a year, I think,

but I kept seeing
other people saying,

"It's amazing."

Stars on their websites saying,

"Read this book."

So I finally picked it up,
and I couldn't put it down.

- I was fascinated
on so many levels

because one, I had a son
that was the same age.

Two, I'd worked with
sexually abused kids

and adult men, and I thought,

"Just his story of survival
just seemed fascinating."

- In the back, he had
his email in there.

Saying, this is who he
is, this is his email,

he likes to get email.

And, I'm not the type
of person to really fawn

over people with their fame,

so I felt kind of reticent
about emailing him,

but, I figured it was
in the book so I did it.

- There was this kid
part of me that was like,

"Oh my God, this famous
author's writing back to me."

You know, and he wrote
consistently to me,

maybe once or twice
a day initially.

- Two years on, we've
had sort of an ongoing

email relationship.

And eventually phone calls,
and I joined his list.

He has a list online.

Went from like 69 people
to 500 or 600 people

online now that basically
just are a community,

and they're his community.

It's an amazing
group, and it's safe.

It's a safe place.

- Most of the
people on that group

were young people,
maybe late teenagers,

20s, a lot of
obvious street kids,

a lot of kids who'd been
sexually or physically abused,

a lot of kids that were
artists of different kinds,

and they worshiped him,

they literally worshiped him.

- I came in here tonight

and saw everyone here,

I thought, "Oh, I'm gonna cry."

Look, we're here
because this a writer

who from deepest privacy,

somehow as if no
one was listening,

sings the accurate,
actual, awful,

beautiful, glories of this life.

- You're a bad boy, and
that's why they gave you away.

They loved you so goddamn much.

Well, then why did
they get rid of you?

Answer me that.

- What
drew you to JT?

- I was drawn to his work.

And also, I liked
his sexual identity,

and the mystery around him.

Even having met him, I'm
not sure if I met him.

- I invited him
over to my house,

and this is suddenly
sort of verboten,

and that's when I was first

introduced to his
deep, deep shyness,

and I, so I began to
realize that this is just

gonna take on a
whole different way

of operating with somebody.

How old are you now?

- 22

- When's your birthday?

- Halloween.

- What's that make you?

- Scorpio.

- Oh, fuck me, really.

- Scorpio's
just very secretive.

- Yeah.

- Devious.

- Yeah.

- You're becoming
sort of iconographic

because, I mean,
let's face it JT,

you're kickin'
some wicked style.

You've got Andy Warhol punked.

You know, I mean, he
had his thing, but

aesthetically you've
destroyed him.

- I mean, you know this, right?

- No.

- You look fucking
cool.

- Thanks.
- You look cool.

All right, so.

- When
I first met JT

at a photo shoot in Los Angeles,

I was given instructions
on how to deal with him.

Do not touch him.

Don't even look him in the eye

or speak to him directly.

Which made me wonder how

I was going to make
a film about him.

In person, I found him quiet,

but not unwilling to talk.

- So let's lend off of that.

Yeah, just keep spinning.

And I know that sounds
awkward but try and

You know, I mean if
you move too far...

No, move but you'll just go,

the light'll change on you.

So just keep that sort of play.

That looks great.

- Just go the way,
all the way out.

- I forgot this shirt

- Wait, are we doing one more
thing out here or something?

- No, I forgot a
shirt, and I left it,

and it's not there!

A shirt.

- Yeah, Steve went and got it.

- Coming
from San Francisco,

I wasn't surprised that
JT was dressed feminine,

and was apparently
taking hormones

for a sex change operation.

But I felt sad for him,

and speculated with
others how years

of extreme child
abuse had possibly

stunted his growth.

- I think you're right.

- What is about the
hotel that it looks nice

but then it's like,

- there's something weird.
- Because it looks

like an old, 20s hotel
but it's actually

like there's cracks, and--

- Yeah, yeah,

- You know.

I don't know Ellie at all.

- It's all new to me.

Yeah, absolutely.

- Do you like to be alone?

- Yeah, a lot.

- You spend a lot of time alone?

- All my time.

- But you live with some people?

- Yeah, but they're
perfectly nice to me.

I, what I really want,
like, they leave me alone,

but it's a small place, and,

I hope I can make enough money

that we can buy a house.

Colette, that's nice.

Emily, that's lovely.

- JT
met up with a couple

who had taken him
in from the streets

when he was homeless
in the Tenderloin.

A British outreach
worker named Emily

who also went by Speedy
and her partner, Astor,

who I was told had briefly
been lovers with JT.

- Where's
JT from originally?

- From, from like
from the Appalachia.

Like he lived all
over the place.

- Yeah,
yeah, and then how long

have you guys, when did
you guys meet up, did you

meet up in San Francisco?
- Yeah.

- Okay, so it's like

a San Francisco love affair.
- Yeah.

- All
of it, you know.

- Let's get playful.

- She's not playful.

Life's too hard to be playful.

- JT
considered them family,

and moved in with them
and their young son, Thor.

- JT's like a big
brother, sometimes a Mum,

sometimes a Dad.

More like a big
brother or big sister.

I think it's very
important for JT to have

that structure.

When we were having
Thor, it was like,

these are, we really, colaced,
coleced,

came together as a family,

and the boundaries were there.

You can't do the same behaviors.

These are the rules.

- For me it's kind of
like an older brother

or an older sister
'cause it's like

she's right there.

- They
formed a pop band

they called Thistle
with Astor on guitar,

Speedy on vocals,
and lyrics by JT.

- Eventually
the band began

to take the stage at
JT's literary events

along with an ever-growing
list of celebrity readers.

- This is Meteor from The Heart
of the Sequel of All Things.

You should read
it if you haven't.

- Brown patches of
skin that mottled

the pure whiteness of his face.

- It was a cigar
like band around

our individual cakes of soap--

- She married me and run off

when I run out of money.

- this is my second
reading of JT's stuff

in the last--

- This is the first
reading I've ever done.

So, let's go.

- Dr. Owens,
did you at this time,

did you understand
Jeremy to be homeless?

- Yes.

- And where
did you understand him

to be sleeping?

- Golden Gate Park, dumpsters,

literally on the
sidewalk at times.

- And,
did you understand him

to be prostituting himself?

- Yes.

- Okay,
did he tell you

that he was HIV
positive at any point?

- Yes.

- This monster of
ambition was unleashed

before our very eyes.

None of us knew where
it was coming from.

None of us could understand
it in the context

of the vulnerable,
stuttering, hyperventilating,

you know, talking in different
schizophrenic voices kid

that we had first known.

- He would say things
like, you know,

"I'm going to be
coming to New York

"and, you know,
with Gus Van Sant,"

and this and that and all
these different celebrities

and, "You should come
and hangout with me."

It was clear that this
is how he does that.

He pulls you into the circle.

And if I hadn't been
writing this piece,

maybe I would have
gone along with it.

- It was all about networking.

It was all about
making connections.

It was all about self-promotion.

And, most writers
who've made a name

for themselves have done
that to some degree.

Not to the, not quite
as obviously as JT,

I don't think.

Not quite as, the
ambition is usually not

quite so naked.

- You felt incredibly special.

You felt like you
were the only person

who understood JT in
a fundamental way.

Or the only person
to whom JT opened up,

or revealed a certain side.

And then,

and then you would watch him

do it with someone else.

- If this person just calls up,

and they, they're
completely like

the kind of characters
in your book that,

you know what I mean,
you're interested

in that kind of person.

You have like a
caretaker side like I do,

and this person lays one
thing after another like,

"I'm gonna kill myself.

"I have AIDS, I'm dying."

You know, it builds this
intense relationship

with the person.

- I saw JT sort of exploiting
those relationships,

but at the same time, I think

that is how publishing
works, through relationships.

And those people are
gatekeepers on some level.

- The list of the star
studded, excellent,

intellectual, and
exciting people

that will be reading
to you tonight.

It's gonna be Tatum
O'Neal, Shirley Manson,

Matthew Modine, Jerry
Harrison, Lou Reed, Mary Carr,

Nancy fucking Sinatra, okay.

- We became phone friends
and email friends,

we finally met
for the first time

just a little while
ago, and I'm so pleased

to actually meet you.

I love you, really.

This is so great to be here.

- You know, Warholian
is a very big word,

but I would suggest
that what it became

was the kind of media circus

that was like the one that
was run in the factory.

- I reach out for a beer.

Uh, thanks.

How old are you?

He crosses his legs.

18, I say.

He laughs, try again.

- JT, get your ass down here.

- By 2004,
JT's first two novels

had been published
in 20 languages.

Film rights to two
books had been sold,

and articles by
or about JT LeRoy

regularly appeared
in major publications

around the world.

And eventually, he began to
read his own work publicly.

- I'm gonna, I'm
gonna read

- I can't hear you.

- You can't hear me.

It's loud in here.

- Take it easy.

- If it was

- JT LeRoy was a very, very
sweet character at one time.

It went away as JT
LeRoy started doing

the whole fashion
and fame thing.

I mean, he wasn't
sweet any more.

He became very, very,

just totally into being famous

and fuck everybody, kind of.

He never used to be like that,

but then he became,
you know, like,

"Fuck everybody.

"I wanna be famous,
I wanna be rich."

And it was just like, wow, he
didn't used to be like that.

- Show me, show me you love me.

Show me you fucking love me.

Show me you love me.

Do you love me, JT?

JT, JT, you swore your
undying love to me,

and I'm not sure...

Beautiful I love it.

Closer, closer, closer.

Closer, so I can feel it.

So, you're cuddling so close

that it is as if
you are cuddling me.

All for one and
one for all, right.

that the money gives

celebrity lifestyle

floating in space

- It's
a coup de grace.

a suck and a taste of

- Yeah, I don't want
any doggie style.

I don't want any of that shit
going on in this picture.

Okay, no doggy style, Susan.

Not for the Sunday Times.

- We're from the New York Times,

and we're doing a photo
shoot on a salon of sorts.

- Yeah, it's a salon
of creative people.

And everybody is from
the San Francisco area,

and they're here
this weekend in Napa.

And, the unusual thing is
we have a pop musician,

and we have a writer
who's JT LeRoy,

and an Italian movie
star slash director,

Asia Argento and they're
all very different.

And they all have very
strong personalities.

- Hey, Becky.

I'm gonna wear my jacket.

Yeah, yeah but that's...

- That's the Holy
Grail of jackets.

- I do seven different
kinds of martial arts.

I'm a black belt.

- You're a
director, aren't you?

- Yeah, I've directed
some Hong Kong movies,

fighting movies.

- Oh, wow, awesome.

That's awesome.

- I think I'm gonna
do a Kung Fu version

of the Heart Is
Deceitful in Hong Kong,

transposition, yeah.

- You
smell like rubber.

- I don't wanna talk
personal stuff about JT.

- Why?

- 'Cause I just think
it's very precious,

JT's friendship, and I
don't wanna talk about it.

- And a toast to Buddha.

- And a toast to Buddha.

- All right everyone,
look at the camera.

- This is like a cafe.

- I gotta picture of you.

- Dr.
Owens, did you have

any reason to believe
that Jeremy was not

who he said he was.

- No.

- Did Jeremy
ever suggest to you

that he was not
who he said he was?

- Tricky
question in a way

in that there were
various personas that

would come forward.

But fundamentally,
no, he would always

come back and refer
to himself as Jeremy.

- Well.

- I'm pretty.

- I'm gonna tell you, you
were meant to be a girl.

- Asia
Argento's film adaptation

of the Heart Is Deceitful
premiered at the 2004

Cannes Film Festival.

But long before
that I had received

an angry call from
JT informing me

that I was no longer
welcome to film him.

A member of my crew
from the Napa shoot

had bumped into him in
the Mission District

and had said, "Hi, JT."

He told me that this
had been a violation

of his privacy, something
that other celebrities

had told him that
he had a right to.

- The investigation
began March of 2005.

I didn't believe that
he was who he claimed

he said he was whether
that just meant

that he was a few years
older and he hadn't quite

lived the life
that he claimed to.

But, I was hearing stories
of him standing up writers

that he was supposed to meet,

waiting for him on park benches

and so on and so
forth, and I was like

anybody who doesn't
want to be seen

isn't who they're
saying that they are.

So this is Frank Norris
Alley which is where

JT would have
supposedly hung out.

I started getting a
lot of information

from Brian Para who's
also a Southern writer

who had a background
as a sex worker.

And he went on a book
tour around the country,

and he kept meeting
different writers,

different gay writers who
were in contact with JT LeRoy.

- They all told me a
different, contradictory

piece of information.

But they didn't have all the
other pieces of information.

Because, you know, they
were leaving the movie,

and no one had really
told them they could think

it was good or bad, do
you know what I mean?

So, they weren't questioning it.

And, I just thought, "Gosh,
wouldn't it be interesting

"if all this stuff was
collated and put together."

Because it doesn't make sense.

- From the beginning, I thought
that JT LeRoy was a liar.

He lied all the time.

I knew it, but I thought I knew

when the lies were happening.

- JT told me he was
gonna get a sex change.

He told me he was gonna be in
the hospital for the next week

so not to contact him.

And, I said, "Okay, I
won't, best of luck."

And I even thought,
should we send flowers?

I mean, is this like
a real, you know

if it's really going
then we should probably

be nice and acknowledge it.

- A person that I had
talked to was like,

"You don't wanna have
a sexual obsession

"with being killed."

And, you know, he
was like covered

with Kaposi Sarcosa

and was cutting himself
all over the place,

and had terribly
damaged, abused genitals,

and all these things
that suddenly were gone.

He didn't have AIDS any more.

It was like everything was...

And that was, and I
was just like, okay,

but again I kept thinking,
"Okay, this guy's

"just trying to get more famous

"so that he's removing
all the edgy stuff."

- And then, I just never
heard another thing about it.

And then two months
later I heard,

"Oh, I'm taking hormone pills."

And I thought, "What
was, what happened

to the hospital visit?"

And, like, "Oh you
know, I passed."

- I heard about all this
not touching people.

And that's just a common
sense thing that you're in a

field where that's part of
your job is to touch people,

it's a bit physical by nature,

and it would be shocking to me

that anyone survived
years of that

and has trouble being touched

and seeing people in public

without a wig and a costume.

It just didn't ring true.

- So, this bar, Vertigo Bar,
this used to be Reflections

which was hustler bar.

It was sort of the
main hustler bar.

The TG bar, Divas,
is over there.

It used to be a block
down on the corner.

Of course, JT has
talked about how

he didn't hang out
with the transgenders

'cause he always hated drag
queens and transgenders

even though he was
a femmy, little,

cross-dressing boy.

He hung out with the skin heads

who would beat up
fags and transgenders

when he was hanging
around on Hope St.

Even though there
weren't any skin heads

hanging out in San
Francisco in the 90s

when JT was here.

That was an 80s thing.

- But, Steven, there's
pictures of it.

- Right.

- You talk to all these
people in San Francisco

who are freaks and
queers and outsiders,

and who have lived various kinds

of, you know, whatever lives,

and none of us have
ever met this person.

And they supposedly live here.

- My mother raped me.

- My mother fucked me.

- My mother taught me
how to turn tricks.

- As a child.
- As a girl.

- That's our stuff.
- It was

in West Virginia.
- I was homeless.

- On the streets

- of San Francisco.

- It was kind of circulating
for a year or two.

Does JT LeRoy exist?

Who is JT LeRoy?

And so, I thought,
well what can I do

with all this amazing material?

And I thought, "Well,
okay, I'm gonna make

an absurdist play."

It's called Will the Real
JT LeRoy Please Stand Up.

And, the premise is who
is JT LeRoy, anyway?

Who is he?

- JT wanted to know
if I would help him

go through his
emails, and I thought,

"Sure, this will be fun,
I'll be glad to do it."

Shortly after that,

in my email I probably got,

I'm guessing it was like
a seven page document

on exactly how to
write as JT LeRoy.

And this was not a
document somebody had

just come up with overnight.

And I sat there and realized,

there have probably
been several people

answering his emails for him.

And, of course, I
thought immediately,

"Oh my God, we've discussed
such personal things."

And at that point, I
was a bit offended,

but I was absolutely fascinated

on what was going
on behind the scenes

and who this person was.

- The Larkin Street Youth Center
is around the corner here.

I went to talk to them
to see if anybody there

would talk to me about JT,

but they, of course, couldn't
reveal any information

about any client
they'd ever had.

- How did
it feel when you were

going about doing
this investigation?

- I mean, I quickly came
across so much information

about how monstrous

JT had been and how manipulative

and how sort of
celebrity worshiping,

that I really felt no guilt

about sort of exposing
this fraud in some sense.

- Steven
Beachy's article

appeared in New York
Magazine in October, 2005.

In it, he claimed that JT
LeRoy was a fabrication

of Laura Albert, a 39 year old

former phone sex operator
and aspiring rock musician

from a Brooklyn
middle class family,

and her partner Geoffrey Knoop,

who I and others had
known as JT's roommates,

Speedy and Astor.

The article was
greeted with skepticism

from JT's legions of
fans and supporters.

Meanwhile, JT continued
to maintain his existence.

- The weirdest I felt was
after my first conversation

with JT at which I told JT,

"Well, I think that
I'm talking to Laura,

"and I think that's
really interesting."

She came across as so
crazy and manipulative

and seductive and
threatening and nice

all at the same time.

- There we go.

This is the look.

This is the
alternative rock look.

- She was telling me how
she had done her research,

and I was a jealous writer,
and I was resentful.

I was just this sort of
loser and bad investigator

who was clumsy and bumbling.

- Fuck you!

- JT sort of rounded
up a whole group

of celebrities and supporters
to sort of attack me.

But, I knew that eventually
I would be vindicated.

That what I reported
was the truth.

- The New York Times
claims that San Francisco

literary sensation,
JT LeRoy, is a hoax.

The paper claims the
25 year old writer

of the bestselling
novels like Sarah,

is not a man but
actually two women.

- A few months
after the Beachy article,

the New York Times
published an article

identifying Savannah Knoop,

Geoffrey Knoop's half
sister, as the public face

of JT LeRoy and further
implicated Laura Albert

as the writer of
JT LeRoy's books

and the creator of the plot,

having worked the
phones and email

in the voice of a
damaged, Southern boy

for over 10 years.

- I wrote a last email to
JT, and what I said is,

I said, "The JT that
I knew, that I knew,

"and have known, would
have come up to me now,

"or would come forth to me now,

"and clear up this
nightmare because I feel

"like I'm caught in
a terrible nightmare.

"If there is no JT, and
this was Laura doing this

"all this time, it's one of
the most sadistic manipulations

"of myself that I've
ever experienced.

"So, please, JT,
stop the nightmare,

"come forth and give
me an explanation.

"If I don't hear from you,
I'll assume there is none."

And the email was
never answered.

- The New
York Times published

a second article a month
after the first one.

In it, Geoffrey Knoop,
having recently separated

from Laura Albert, came
forward to apologize

for his role in
what he described

as an all-consuming
web of deceit.

- Do
you miss the light

kind of shooting through?

- No, I
think this is fine.

- I mean you did get
rid of the dust, right?

It got rid of the dust.

I basically was like,
I'm fucking done.

I don't care what
the consequences are.

And again, I'm not the
one who broke the story.

All I did was go
on record and say,

"Yes, she wrote it."

Like so that somebody
like Gus Van Sant,

who we worked with,
who I respect a lot

wouldn't be saying, "Well, no,

"I'm still talking to JT."

As the story was
breaking, I called up Gus,

and I was like, "Gus, no."

He had to hear it
from somebody like me.

It's Laura.

I'm really sorry, man.

There is no JT.

- For people on the
outside, it's a great story.

For the rest of us,
it was a challenge

to get through all of
this because it really,

it destroys faith

that you build over time

with people you work with.

- Now, I think I'll
shave my moustache.

No, note I'm really a man.

- People were
absolutely devastated.

Kids who'd started writing,

kids who'd started doing music,

kids who had gotten off drugs.

I mean, their Messiah,
their hope had been dashed.

- This is a statement
that 28 kids put together

at Mitch's drop in at the EVRC.

We the LGBTIHQQ youth
of San Francisco

who are variously
homeless, sex workers,

abuse survivors,
former foster kids,

IV drug users, and people
living with HIV AIDS,

are appalled by the exploitation
of our real world struggles

by JT LeRoy and
company for the purpose

of personal profit
and celebrity.

We expect an apology,

not simply for
defrauding the public

into giving money to
someone who they believed

to be young, struggling,
and seriously ill,

but for repeatedly
defaming our community

both in articles and interviews.

- Whenever
it was that you

first became convinced,
even if not 100% certain,

that JT LeRoy didn't in fact
exist, were you surprised?

- Whenever that was.

Oh yes, yes.

- Did
you feel betrayed?

- Did I feel betrayed?

No, that's not the word I'd use.

- What
word would you use?

- I don't know.

Much more complex
than simply betrayed.

It, God it's hard,
confused certainly.

- While Laura
Albert and Savannah Knoop

remained silent in the media,

Laura took on representation
to sell a proposed memoir.

Meanwhile, the Weinstein
Company optioned

the three articles
about JT LeRoy

that had been published
in the New York Times

with the hopes to make a movie.

And after failing to
reach a settlement,

Antidote Films, the
production company

that had optioned
the book, Sarah,

began legal proceedings
against Laura,

charging her with fraud.

- Let me ask
you, why didn't you question

whether or not this
was a real person.

- You know, the extent
and the dramatics

and the flair of the
subject matter was big.

And when, for example,
someone tells you

on the phone that they
aren't gonna be able

to talk for a couple of weeks

because they're going
into the hospital

to have their ass operated on

because they did
so much ass fucking

at the truck stop
that they really had

a lifetime of damage
that has to be repaired,

that's not something
you can really question.

- For me, it's all about,
if it was not important

who JT LeRoy was why
didn't Laura Albert

put her name on it?

By definition, she felt it
was paramount importance

not only to put his name on it,

but to continue the charade for,

what was it, 10 years.

I find it very unfortunate
that I have invested

over a $100,00 on a false
premise, a false assumption.

- You know when
you meet somebody

and you go, "Oh man, I don't
like this person at all.

"Now maybe they'll
change my mind

"in an hour or two or three

"and turn out to be
really cool and great

"and interesting and whatever.

"Or harmless."

But I remember
thinking, and I remember

this vividly thinking,
"This one's up to no good."

That's all I can remember.

And I remember that
feeling vividly.

- I'm like a pretty
fearless person,

never had anyone with two words

make my bones shake with fear.

And I don't even
know fear of what,

I really don't know.

It was like what are
you gonna do to me?

You can't beat me
up, I mean, you know.

- It was a strange
experience meeting her.

I was at a bar for a
friend's premiere party,

and I happened to
have my camera with me

which I brought because I
was doing a blog at the time.

So I just walked up
to her with my camera

and started filming.

- How's it going?

- Pretty good.

Have you met JT LeRoy?

- I haven't.

- Caveh Zahedi who had the
film called I'm a Sex Addict

and it's playing in a big way.

- Yeah, you want me to?

- She was kind of
a bit of a bully.

You know, if you don't my
thing, I'm gonna scare you.

You know, intimidator.

It was her control drama.

So, but I also
kind of liked her.

She was kind of
charming and fun, too.

A weird mix.

- It definitely felt
like this person is evil

in some sense.

I mean, the changeability,

the shapeshifting quality

sort of feeds into
our ideas of Satan.

There's the brilliant
moments in The Exorcist

where the devil,
through Linda Blair,

is sort of going after
this closeted, gay priest,

and sort of
uncovering his secrets

and hitting him where it hurts.

- The demon is a liar.

He would like to confuse us.

But he will also mix lies

with the truth to attack us.

- Spirit--
- Shove it up your ass you--

- Laura was very psychologically
astute in the same way.

She really had this
incredible talent

for getting people,
even on the telephone,

and knowing sort of
where to hit them

and what it was in
their own psychologies

that she could use.

- He would start
talking about birthdays.

And how he never
had a birthday cake.

And he'd never had a
birthday party in his life.

Never hardly even got presents,

and talked about
usually his birthdays

revolved with abuse.

And being the single
father that I was,

I decided for Christmas,

I would send him

a birthday present for
every year of his life.

- I started going
back on all the kinds

of interactions we had,
and I started realizing

that 80% of them had
no practical benefit

for this person.

They weren't getting
him published.

They're weren't
getting him publicity.

They're weren't getting
any money from me.

They were merely
building a more and more

solid relationship between
me and this person.

And some of them looked
at now as fake things,

they can only be
interpreted as very sadistic

and very manipulative.

- Five minutes before
Christmas dinner,

and he calls me
on my cell phone.

Again, I was shocked
if this was JT.

He goes, "I just wanna tell you,

I opened those
boxes," and he goes,

"I can't stop crying."

He said, "No one ever cared
about that much for me.

"No one's ever given
me that attention.

"No one's ever
given me that love."

He goes, "I love you
more than anyone."

- There was one time
that JT and I talked

for several hours on the
phone deep into the night

until maybe two or
three in the morning.

And it was a very tender talk
and a very intimate talk.

And I expressed very strong
feelings of affection.

In my mind, they were just
expressions of affection,

and they were pleasing JT.

In my mind, they had
no sexual component.

- He was talking
to me and he goes,

"You know, I promised
you that before

"I ended it all,
I would call you.

"And that's what I
want to do today.

"I've had it, it's too
hard, no one's here."

And I'm like, inside
I'm just like,

crisis intervention
panicking, thinking,

"I am 3,000 miles away
from you, whatever,

"and you're trying
to kill yourself.

"No one's there.

"Oh my God, what do I do?"

- The next day, JT called and
seemed very, very disturbed

and said, "I've been
discussing our conversation

"with my therapist,
and he says you were

"coming on to me,
and I don't want

"any pedophilic
behavior between us."

'Cause at that time
he was only supposed

to be 15 or 16.

I was absolutely
anguished, I said,

"No, that's not what
I meant about it,

"you mustn't feel that way."

- Because I just wish
you were just here

to beat me because that's
what I really deserve.

I really want you
to tell me how much

you want to beat me, and
what you would do to me

'cause I'm so bad.

And I'm standing there thinking,

"He wants phone sex."

- He told me to turn
on the television

because his grandfather's
voice was coming

through the television
telling me that unless

I gave up homosexual ways,
I was going to go to hell.

And because he cared about me,

I'd better listen to
his grandfather now.

- I believed that in
order for him to trust me,

that he wanted to
be sexual with him.

And then he could trust me.

So, I stood there and told him

what he wanted to hear.

We talked a little longer.

We hung up the phone.

I was just sick to my stomach.

- Evil isn't stable.

Evil will say whatever
it needs to say

to get whatever it wants.

It's always playing games.

It's always using
your own desires,

it's always getting
into your own head

and psychologizing you.

- This person made me feel like

if I didn't talk to them, they
were gonna kill themselves

or they were gonna like...

I mean, really, that's
what was being played,

how I was being played.

It was like I was
his entire world.

Everything ma--

I was everything to him.

I was his mother, his father,
he was in love with me,

I was, you know, this
is what I was getting

constantly,
constantly, constantly.

- I wondered about
what was Laura thinking

during the, I mean, were those
sincere emotional meltdowns

that I was having to feel

or were they

just kind of improv?

- Have you
ever talked to Ms. Albert

about the perception
that what she did

was a deception?

- No.

- Have you
ever given her any opinion

on whether you thought
that what she was doing

was a deception?

- No.

- Have
you ever told her that

you thought, you
agree that she was,

to at least to some
extent, putting on a hoax?

- No.

- Do you think
she was putting on a hoax?

- No.

- Has Laura
ever told you, Ms. Albert,

ever told you that she
was putting on a hoax?

- No.

- Why do you
think she wasn't putting

on a hoax?

- I think it's a
superficial understanding

of her psychopathology.

I think it really
misunderstands it.

- In what way?

- She's a lot sicker
individual than I think

is obvious in a superficial
contact with her.

- My name is Laura.

I was born with a fever
November first, 1965.

My mother was in the
Brooklyn Hospital

for three days, and
she almost died.

It was election day,
and because of me,

my mother didn't get to vote.

It was also the Day of the Dead.

I'd go to the bathroom
and do shows by myself

in front of the mirrors,
but I wanted an audience.

I didn't want to
be alone with it.

And at school, I would
let loose the characters.

I would do monologues.

I would do different
scenarios, different accents,

mimicry, which is the same
way you learn to write.

First you copywriter,
then the material mutates

and it becomes your own.

- What initially
attracted you to Laura?

- You know, when I met
her, she was doing,

like working a
spiritual program,

and really we would
thank the animal

for giving us life before
we'd eat the turkey,

or whatever .

Say a little New Age prayer
or whatever.

So, and there was a lot of talk

about rigorous honesty

and trying to make amends.

There were a number of
events that happened

with Laura that were deceitful.

She kind of like stopped
living the rigorous,

honest life.

She would call up, say
Safeway, and be like,

"Hello, I was in there
on tour and, uhm-- "

This was way back in the
early days, way before JT.

"And you know, I left a
bag of groceries there,

"and I wonder if
you found them?"

"Oh no, well let me check."

And then he'd come back, "No,

"we couldn't find the groceries,

"but you sound very sweet Ma'am,

"we trust you.

"Come on in and just pick out
the things you had before."

We did
that like 20 times

over the course of a few years.

The next thing I know,
she's doing phone sex.

Like any naive boyfriend,
I'm like jealous,

and pissed off, and I'm like,

"What the fuck is she doing?"

It really just didn't click
that it was a money thing only.

'Cause she was
really good at it.

'Cause we'd been
struggling to make it

in music, or she was
reviewing erotic sites,

reviewing restaurants.

We tried all kinds of things.

And so like, the writing
at first just seemed

like another thing
that she was trying.

Neither of us really
expected it to go anywhere.

'Cause we'd been
trying for 11 years

to make something
artistic go somewhere.

- At trial,
Laura's defense contended

that Antidote Films
had optioned a novel,

and that is what they got.

JT LeRoy was merely a pseudonym.

- I got off the
phone after speaking

with one of her representatives,

and I couldn't, I was
incredibly agitated.

And I couldn't figure out why,

and I realized why.

It was because they kept saying,

"Well, JT feels this way
and JT feels this way."

And I kept thinking, "Wait
a sec, you cannot say that

"'cause JT doesn't exist.

"JT has no feelings whatsoever."

JT is a fiction, and that
actually was the first time

when I really got a sense
that this is sort of now,

this is just
getting too twisted.

- Laura's
defense also asserted

that the books were
metaphorically true,

an artistic coping mechanism

based on her own experiences
as an abuse survivor.

- Have
you made any diagnosis

with respect to why Ms.
Albert has, in the past,

utilized multiple personas
in her dealings with others?

- It's my understanding
that she has

a fairly traumatic history,
very difficult childhood

and early adolescence.

- And
what do you understand

that history, that
difficult history to be?

- Physically
abusive relationship

at the hands of her mother,

emotionally abusive
relationship at the hands

of her mother and father,

psychiatric hospitalization,
residential treatment,

displacement from the
home, so, those things.

- Laura was clearly familiar
with basic narratives

of multiple personality.

She pretended to have
multiple personalities

on the telephone
with Dennis Cooper

and with some other people.

It was understood by several
of the early contacts

that JT had some form
of, by that point

it was probably Dissociative
Identity Disorder.

- For a while I got phone
calls where he would talk

in five or six, seven
different character, voices.

There was a phase when
this was going on.

You know, I'd hear the girl,
the boy, the this, the that.

- Now I look back, and
now I know I was talking

to a woman named Laura
Albert doing the accent.

I know that she had to hang
up and then talk to her son

to tell him to go to school,

and then pick up the phone again

and talk as JT, and hang up,

and then talk as
Emily, somebody.

It's just fascinating to me.

She has to be one of the
craziest motherfuckers ever.

Do you know what I mean?

Right up there with some of
the real classic weirdos.

- You're juggling
all sorts of lies,

and all sorts of relationships.

And Laura Albert is a Type
A hardworking personality.

On the phone, emailing,
traveling, all that,

just when did she rest?

So, of course you're
gonna be nuts.

Sleep deprivation I'm sure does

a lot of things psychologically.

But that's as far as I
would go in saying that,

you know, lending that
romance of insanity.

- Have
you made any diagnosis

with respect to Ms. Albert
about multiple personalities?

- It's hard to say.

Do I think it is a
aspect of her psychology?

Yes, I do.

- And, in what
ways do you think it's

an aspect of her psychology?

- It long lies, I've
been saying that I think

there is a lot about direct
interpersonal contact

with others that threatens
her a great deal,

and that she shields
herself from those contacts

in a variety of ways,
including the use of personas.

- Including
the use of hiring people

to appear as those personas?

- Potentially, yes.

- Do you
believe that she's conscious

of the fact that she's
hiring people to appear

as her when she's doing it?

- Yeah, I don't
think shes' psychotic

and out of touch
with that entirely.

- The
popular kids liked me

because I made them laugh.

I made up funny stories,
and I was the best

at prank phone calls.

In the sixth and seventh grade,

girls started having
serious crushes on boys,

and we started calling
them on the phone.

There was this one guy
that everyone really liked,

but no one could speak
to him on the phone

because they'd giggle too much.

So one day, with the
other girls listening,

I called him using
a Swedish accent,

and he fell for it.

I kept calling him.

The other girls
didn't know this.

I made up a whole
character, Katrin.

I went to the library
to research Sweden,

and I studied
Swedish to make sure

my accent was right.

Katrin was living
with Laura, with me.

But her parents
were very strict,

and she wasn't allowed
to leave the house

so no one ever saw her.

I found I had this
skill over the phone,

this idea of, wow, I
have this personality,

but I'm not allowed to expose it

because my physical
appearance doesn't match it.

The boy fell in
love with Katrin,

and I fell in love with him.

Our phone relationship
went on for months,

it got really elaborate.

And then, one day, I met
him as Katrin's friend,

Laura, and we started
to hang out together.

I cut out a picture
of a pretty girl

from an old yearbook
to show him.

His friends found out about her,

and they would talk to
her on the phone too.

It was very real and
it had taken me over.

I didn't know how to stop it,

but I realized it had to end.

So, I discovered
this kind of cancer

that could develop pretty fast,

and I gave that to Katrin.

And one day when the
boy called the house,

I told him that Katrin had died.

The next morning,
the boy's mother

showed up at our door.

The boy's family was
upset and they wanted

to know what had happened,

and my mother was like,

"What the fuck are
you talkin' about?"

I remember hearing them
talkin' in the other room,

and feelin' heartbroken.

I hadn't meant for
any of this to happen.

- In a lot of ways
now, when I hear her

talking about her own
abuse or being crazy,

I think, "She's good,
this is her next scam."

Now she's using
everything she used

to develop JT LeRoy and saying,

"This is me, poor me, I
was abused, I'm crazy."

Well, you could
have been abused,

you may be crazy, but
it doesn't make it okay

for you to be predatory and
take advantage of others.

- Her Mom taught her
how to be a grifter.

I mean, it was acceptable.

- Her mother is
something of a con woman,

and has been for
years and years.

They know how to
game the situation

in order to make
it work for them.

And whatever lie
needs to be told,

well, it's almost like
they would look at someone

like you and me,
and go, "Well, duh,

"I needed to get this,
so I needed to do that.

"So what's wrong with that?

"That's called survival."

- Tell me
about Underdogs, Inc.

- Although Laura's
sister had cashed some

of the early checks,
which I found out,

later checks were cashed
by Underdogs, Inc.

And I discovered
that Laura's mother

was the president
of that corporation.

- Mr.
Bogatin, isn't it true

that one of the reasons
Underdog was created

was to avoid revealing the fact

that JT LeRoy was a pseudonym?

- Correct.

- They unabashedly created
fraudulent documents

to give to the court.

I mean they're like
risking going to prison.

It's a serious, serious act.

- Did
you ever understand

whether Ms. Albert
would be angry or upset

if you had disclosed that JT
LeRoy was in fact a woman?

- Very upset.

That was one of
the preconditions

of my engagement
and involvement.

Not to reveal that.

- We have a number of documents,

six, seven, eight, and
we're gonna sign them

to make them appear
that they were signed

years before.

So, I just think that they
will do absolutely anything

to get ahead.

- I pleaded with her Mom
for the last year or so,

"This is out of
control, Caroline.

"It's really not
good for Trevor,

"it's really not good for me."

And, she just
didn't give a shit.

She didn't care.

- Because?

- 'Cause really,
they're all about money.

- People would talk in
emails about all the gifts

they were sending him from
literally all over the world.

- He never really
came out and said,

"I want this, will
you get it for me?"

He would come out and say,

"My computer broke" or

"I need an office,
I can't be in this.

"I live in this house
with six people,

"and I can't write, and
I can't concentrate.

"I need an office."

Didn't, never said,
"Will you get it for me?"

But, of course,
your response is,

as a person with a small
amount of extra money,

is to say, "God, you're
a writer and I'm not.

"You're talented and I'm not
so I'll pay for your office."

- You wouldn't
always get an answer

if you sent him something.

And I remember once saying,

"Did you get this box,
did you get this box?"

And him making the
comment, he goes,

"Oh, you would not believe
how much stuff we get here.

"We just have piles
and piles of boxes."

He goes, "If I don't
get back to you,

"it's only because
we haven't had time

to go through all the boxes."

- I got a phone call saying,

"My computer's acting funny.

"It's breaking down
every two seconds,

"and the computer
guy came and said

that it can't be fixed."

I thought about it
and was like, again,

"Genius kid, writing
novels, it seems like a pity

that the one tool that this
kid needs is a computer."

- Again, I excuse
him 'cause I thought,

"Here is this street
kid who has never had

"anything before, and
has no social graces,

"and doesn't know what
to do when he gets it."

And it's like,
gimme, gimme, gimme.

So, again I was making
excuses for him.

- It's all based in
the human element.

That's why it's so
easy to join the cult.

And we're all
members of the cult,

we were all members of the cult.

I mean, that's just a fact.

People are going to
be, I'm sure have

tried to take the
high road and say,

"Well, actually you know,"

and give you all kinds of
interesting logical reasons

as to what happened,
didn't happen,

and the truth is,
I was a member.

I was a card carrying
member, and I was fooled,

and I guess I
wanted to be fooled.

- I realize that part of
the reason I hadn't seen

through the ruse
could not be blamed

on this Laura person.

I like to refer to her
as this Laura person

because I have
absolutely no connection

to her whatsoever.

I thought it could
be blamed on me,

this vulnerability
could be blamed on me

because it came out
of a certain neediness

to have a young man
that I could protect,

that I could care about,
that I could nurture.

You know, whether it's
the desire to have a child

or to have a lover,
obviously that need in me

was so strong that it put
me into a kind of denial

where I was able to swallow
the most blatant kinds

of fraud.

- It wasn't just JT,
Laura Albert, hoodwinking

all these innocent people.

That these innocent
people were contributing

to that fiction, and helping
sustain that fiction,

creating it.

- They asked me to read
because JT was shy,

and wasn't gonna read.

Beforehand, we were
supposed to talk about JT.

We were asked to say
something about JT.

Before I start reading,
just like to say

a little bit about
how I got to know JT.

We were propelling
the myth, I guess.

We actually haven't
met in person yet,

but I feel like I
know a lot about JT

and I think when
people read his work,

they feel like they
really know him

because his work is so...

Well, you've all
read it I'm sure, right?

It is so deep and it
is so frightening,

and it's so real.

I think it's hard for
women to get recognition

in our society in a lot of ways.

For me, I didn't really think
about how JT came to be,

but the fact that JT
was actually Laura

didn't bug me, it
didn't bother me.

- They all like to
focus on Laura Albert,

it's like she's
this evil monster.

She's like out to get all of
us to believe her charade.

And, instead of
actually talking about

the industry behind
Laura Albert.

And so, Laura Albert was
playing by the rules.

Laura Albert
mastered those roles,

and she was flawless at them,

and she got where they take you.

- She knew that we were
at the red hot center

of some fiction scene
she wanted to be in on.

I think she thought of
some of us as gatekeepers,

and I guess, she thought
we wouldn't allow in

a 30 something year old woman.

- JT LeRoy's first book
is compared to Burroughs.

You know, boom, he's huge.

And it's again
because he's palatable

because he's working the system

because he's got big
friends and that's awesome

but as a woman, I don't know
if he had the same friends

even as a woman if he
would get that far.

- This is far beyond
a question of whether

she was male or female.

I mean, this was a
first novel written

by a 16 year old, you
know, uneducated kid.

So, yes, of course that
seems like a phenomena.

And we know that
people love youth,

and we know that
people love abuse

and misery and all that.

- Laura Albert, to my
mind, was just a one woman,

and I guess you could
call this feminist,

she's a one woman
super ad agency

and branding agency on her own.

You know, she must, whether
it's intuitive or learned

as in a scholarly
way, she pulled off

what many ad agencies
would have loved

to pull off and are pulling off.

- Hello, I've had the
amazing fortune and blessing

to meet JT having to be a part

of the film, The
Heart Is Deceitful.

And here's that cliche,
never meet your heroes,

but in this case,

he's one of those people that

you wanna live more truthfully

after spending time with.

- The Warholian
aspect of all of this

I think imposed
itself later because

the circus like nature of this

and the grasping at celebrity

and the manipulation
of celebrities

turned into something
that was larger

than they were, that was
about fame writ large,

that was about a certain
kind of manipulation

of not only people
but fashion companies.

I mean, they were scamming
clothing and trips,

living the high life,
using the invention

of this celebrity writer.

- As far as the celebrities,
it was really easy.

Once you had two or three,

it was like a domino effect.

Here's Billy Carden
came over to our house

a couple, few years ago.

it was definitely surreal
to have him in our kitchen.

Michael Stipe and Eddie Vetter.

Debby Harry, that's
from a cocktail party

that we had.

This is the party
in our hotel room.

- That's cool.

- Here's Savannah
with Shirley Manson.

- I feel like I need
to sing this to you.

up in some karaoke bar

I told you up short.

- Do you think
everyone was scared of her,

is that why they would be quiet?

Didn't anyone just
wanna pull the plug

at different points kind of?

- I mean, I think you know,
I also, unfortunately,

well, I mean I was really,
Laura was my closest friend

and my partner in life and
everything and creativity.

I, you know, would scold my Mom

for not keeping the
secret well enough.

I would, I mean I was in
Laura's cult basically

or I was her partner.

I mean, I thought
we were partners.

- Mr.
Bogatin, do you recall

that one of the
reasons Ms. Albert

was interested in keeping her
true identity confidential

is because she had
hopes of selling

her individual story rights?

- Oh yes.

- She even
had Exhibit one ten,

and this relates to negotiations

between Underdogs
and Gus Van Sant,

is that correct?

- Uh, yes.

- And also I think,

about separate
negotiations with HBO?

- Yes.

- And you say
half way through your email

the most pressing
concern is in what name

to put the financial
entitlements?

Do you recall what you're
referring to there?

- To whom the money
was going to be paid.

- People who care
about me were like,

"Well, it sucks that
you're getting screwed."

Even before we split up,
like a couple years be--

"It sucks that
they're screwing you

by not having you
on the corporation

and not being legally
married" and on and on.

"And the credit cards
aren't in your name really,

"and that they
have all the power

"and hold the purse strings.

"But, at least when the
lawsuits come in some day,

"you'll be fine," you know.

- On June 20,
2007, Laura took the stand

in what the press dubbed
the postmodern trial

of the century.

She stated that JT had
been her respirator,

her channel for air.

Testifying in her own
defense, she claimed,

"If you take away my JT, my
Jeremy, my other, I die."

I wasn't allowed
to bring my camera

inside the courtroom.

This is the one
shot I took of Laura

the day she took the stand.

In the end, the jury
only needed a few hours

to reach their decision.

- I feel great, I just,
I feel so relieved,

ultimately to be
kind of moving on.

You know, essentially the trial

completely vindicated and
validated the position

which we put forward.

Laura Albert and her
cohorts purposely set out

to commit a fraud.

The court very clearly ruled
in our favor as did the jury.

- Dr.
Owens, to be very clear,

you're the therapist
for Laura Albert now?

- Yes

- And
does she pay you?

- Yes, reduced fee.

- Have
you given any thought

to the fact that Ms. Albert
is manipulating you today?

- Sure, I've given it thought.

- And?
- I don't think

that's what she's doing.

- Why do you
think, strike that, why not?

Why do you think she's
not manipulating you?

- Why do I think she's
not manipulating me?

'Cause I have a
much deeper understanding

I think of her
personality and psychology

than that would indicate.

I think that would be, again,

a very superficial understanding

of what's true about her.

I think she's again, a
very disturbed individual

that wouldn't have
really even the capacity

to be as consciously
manipulative as that suggests.

- I felt like I
was losing myself.

And I know Savannah
went through that too.

I mean she tried to
quit after the six week

European tour 'cause
you spend six weeks

pretending to be somebody else,

it's, it makes you feel,
you start to lose yourself.

- So, you had
like an involving reaction.

- Yeah, no I'm ready to
deal with it, however.

- However, yeah.
- Yeah.

In terms of Savannah,
my thinking about that,

it wasn't her story and she
should live her own life

is what I thought.

And not be playing a role

much of the time.

- I can barely read The Heart.

It's painful.

- But
you've written it.

- Yeah, I wrote it.

All those stories came out of it

because I had to write it in,

like it was really
painful to edit them

or go back and look through it

because it just brings up

so much emotional stuff.

- She has some acting
talent is what,

is what emerged
from all of this.

- I like attention
but I really fear it.

- And I also felt that she was,

she was gathering material.

How many kids her age,
in their early 20s,

get to see all the
sham and deceit

and gaudy stuff

that's going on in the
world of celebrities?

She got to see it.

And she got to see it
as a total observer

which is a kind of
valuable position.

- I don't know, I don't
know who I am really.

- Put your hands together
ladies and gentlemen

for Savannah Knoop.

- Thanks for coming.

I'm just gonna read a few parts,

and then I'll open
it up for Q & A.

There was a quiet clicking.

She said something and
everyone laughed wryly.

I present JT.

They clapped.

Laura gestured to
me to say something.

She looked pleased.

I mustered a low, "Hi."

And someone coughed.

What were they waiting for?

In some ways it felt
like almost addictive.

I'd get these like longings
when I wasn't doing it.

And I would miss the experience,

and feel like my life
is so boring without it.

- Savannah, did she feel guilty?

No, she was very clear-headed
about the whole thing.

And very pragmatic.

It was just something that,

it was happening, and it was
in some ways interesting.

You know, she got to see Europe,

she got to see much of Asia.

- Thank you very much.

- For Geoffrey, it
was a way to try

and get a little bit more
recognition as a musician.

He was unhappy about a lot of it

right from the beginning.

But, he went along with
it because, you know,

she was, she was his mate.

And he did love her,
apparently, quite a lot.

- I feel guilty doing
these interviews.

There's a part of
me that's cringing

because I'm betraying Laura.

And that's very cultish.

I don't owe Laura anything,

and I don't wish
bad things upon her,

and I'm not out to destroy her.

But at the same time,
I'm not gonna keep

her secrets any more.

I don't want to write
fucking children's books.

I don't wanna start
over again as a nobody,

a fat 30 something Mom.

Fuck that!

Jack: You're gonna
lose everything

when this comes out
some day, Laura.

You need to have a plan.

Geoff: that's me, He's right.

People are going to figure out

that you're the
writer at some point.

All those hooks are going away.

But they're still there a
little bit and I feel them,

and she still tries to use them,

and we have a kid
together, you know,

and I have to deal with her.

You ask me, did she feel guilt

or how did she justify it
or how did she rationalize

pretending to be, you
know, deceiving people,

pretending to be somebody
she wasn't, using people?

And, you know,
unfortunately, the only way

that I feel she could
do all that was,

and not feel bad about
it the way I did,

was that she doesn't have
much of a conscience.

- What do you do?

- There was the idea that

no rules, you can do
whatever the fuck you want.

You don't have to
listen to their rules.

They say door's shut,
you find a way around.

We did that every day.

We found another way.

And people were turning tricks,

they were changing their gender,

they did what they needed to do.

And I did that by
any means necessary

but that's holding to your truth

and to me it was with
holding compassion.

It was, it was how do
you tell your truth

and allow people to see a world

that they were
turning their back on.

You know, I was a
ward of the state.

I was in a group home.

Right?

And for me, it was like
how do I make people care?

How?

I will find a way
to transcend that.

- She's had a lot
of other stories

as this story plays out
as to the reasons why

she should be as
loved and as revered

and as taken care of, and
why she's been persecuted,

and why she's been punk rock,

and why she's been the victim.

And, I think she's tried
to hit these targets

hoping that one of
them is gonna stick,

and now, we will all say,

"Oh, I get it!"

She should be as venerated,

she should be as loved.

We should be glad we
saved this person's life.

- It's hard because
the articulation

in the mainstream
media, very similar

to what it was about punk when

they first encountered it.

They did not know what this was.

What animal is this?

Well, it's bad, it's evil.

We don't understand
it so let's label it

as something to
be frightened of.

And when I was first
revealed as JT LeRoy,

the articulation
was one of like,

"Holy fuck, what is this?

"It's a demon seed."

And I knew how to handle that

'cause I came out
of the punk scene.

I'm used to that.

You just shut the fuck up

and bide your time, and keep
doing what you're doing.

And now, you know it's changed.

Now, it's like, oh wow.

- Some people think

that you might not really
exist, in other words,

that JT LeRoy might be
a pen name or a hoax

or some kind of extended
performance piece.

I've even considered
that possibility myself.

I mean do you run
into this a lot?

That people think that this
is just some kind of hoax?

- Yeah, and I
definitely enjoy it.

It's something that I
can't say I discourage.

- Is there
something unique here,

or is Laura just
in that tradition

of the completely
screwed up artist?

- Laura might be a
completely screwed up artist

but she,

she used an idea

about suffering.

She used an idea about pain.

Look, bottom line
is, we all lost

a lot of people to AIDS, a lot.

A lot of our friends, a
lot of our loved ones,

a lot of writers,
a lot of artists.

So, by the time she
came around saying,

"I'm a 15 year old with HIV,"

she got to a lot of people who

had a lot of empathy.

Who really thought this, this,

the voice of the
young person suffering

would be important to hear

and get out into the world.

She hit a lot of
us below the belt.

- Where it becomes to
me like a manipulation

that is somewhat sort of
tragic and overwhelming

is sort of the way
in which Laura Albert

was able to position
this JT LeRoy character

as sort of like the
damaged queer in all of us.

And to be able to say, like,

"I was homeless
and on the streets

"and addicted to
heroin, and now,

"I'm in Vanity Fair."

Hello, work!

- This idea's being
propagated that everyone

sort of has a right to a voice

and that it's having
that artistic voice

that is going to
sort of free us and,

and change our lives and,

that that's become sort of
the most important thing.

And it's very difficult for kids

from certain
backgrounds to ever feel

like they have a
right to a voice.

- That is like the lie
of the American Dream,

you know, that if you
are just talented enough,

and work hard
enough, and do work

that's just truly great and
truly pushing boundaries

then you will get there.

And that's bullshit.

Most people live on the fringes,

die on the fringes
if they're lucky.

If they even get to
make their work at all.

- What do you
think of the writing now?

Have you reread it?

What do you think of it?

- That's an
interesting question.

The question was what do I
think of the writing now?

Uhm.

- It is not by any means
important, in quotes, work.

It was work that was
published because

it was supposed to be
the authentic voice

of someone who suffered.

- She is an incredible
storyteller.

And she should be proud of this.

But I don't think
she's much of a writer.

The early books had
a great deal of help

from spectacular writers,

people who wanted to
help craft this work.

- I always thought those
books had problems.

I mean, I always thought
there was corny cliches

and sentimentality and
stuff in them but, you know

if they're written by a
15 year old kid, I mean,

it's a remarkable thing.

- At the end of the day, I
think the work needs to stand,

and I don't think
the work has stood.

- For me, what stands
is what's on the paper.

And, I'm sorry, you know
like all these critics

and stuff going, "Oh yeah,
the work doesn't stand up."

Well, I'm tellin' ya,
that work does stand up.

That is very strong work
by whoever wrote it.

- Imagine if she had
applied all the skills

of imagination and
character portrayal

that she applied to the
fraud to her writing,

her books would have
been 10 times as good

as they already are now.

And, not only did she
throw away her creativity

in this, what I would
call, criminal activity,

but she also made
certain that no one

would ever take her
seriously again.

- She is the apogee of
what any of us as writers

or people interacting in a
marketplace could become.

- I sort of think of
Laura as my evil twin.

Not only my evil twin
but sort of the evil twin

of all writers or potential
writers in that she,

she embodies all of this,
all of our secret ambition,

and all, all of the sort of
nasty, manipulative things

that writers do all the
time to become successful

but that none of us want
to admit that we do.

- She realized that she could
be fully selfish and thrive.

And she could be fully
self-focused, self-centered,

exploit people for gain, and,

I mean, you can do that.

It works, it does work.

I mean, you still have
to deal with yourself,

and if, if your
ethics are such that

that's not a problem,
well then, you know.

And I don't think her
ethics were a problem

Why would her
ethics be a problem?

She wasn't real.