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Downloaded from YTS.MX

(soft music)

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- [Woman] Are you ready?

- [Steve] I don't even know how to begin, so.

- [Woman] Okay.

- [Attiya] Are you all right?

- [Steve] Mmmm, hm hmm.

- Jenny, you let us know, start babbling.

Did you say yeah?

Okay.

So the first question is to describe

the day that we met,

if you remember. (snickering)

- Yeah, I think you were 17.

- [Attiya] 16.

- Really?

- [Attiya] Yeah.

- And I was turning 18?

- [Attiya] Yeah.

- Right.

- [Attiya] Yeah. Right?

A year and a half difference?

- Yeah. You had saucer eyes for me. (laughing)

It was, it was nice.

I remember you were wearing all black.

And how I fell for you, yeah.

Just a girl I wanted to get to know.

And that was it.

I knew I had to be with you.

- You okay?

I mean the reason I asked the first question is the day

that we met is because for me that's

the most, it was a very happy day.

- It was a great day. - The day we met.

It was an amazing day.

It was the amazing day I feel like.

- I didn't wanna let go of that day.

(soft music)

- I didn't think you'd actually show up

for that first conversation.

(soft music)

I had been shocked when we started running

into each other in Toronto,

years after I had escaped from you.

I was still haunted by the memories

of the time we lived together.

(melodramatic music)

I couldn't believe you agreed to discuss

the abuse you inflicted on me.

(soft music)

I sensed that the conversation would be as important

to you as it was for me.

(soft music)

It had been twenty years,

and now I finally had a chance to get some answers.

(soft music)

Now I know I remember,

within the first couple weeks, right,

I think may have been the first time

that any abuse happened.

Like it happened quickly.

Do you remember that?

- No.

- Okay.

Do you remember the first time of being physically abusive?

- No.

- Okay.

May I ask you if,

had you ever been physically abusive to anyone before me?

- No. It was,

I was so young then.

- Yeah.

- You know, you were my first real girlfriend.

(Steve exhales loudly)

- Do you,

do you remember the frequency of the abuse?

How often or?

- No, I just know that it wasn't good.

And I don't even know why.

- If you were to think back,

would you be able to describe the kinds of,

or sort of abuse that there was, that went on?

- Oh yeah.

That's the stuff that never leaves your mind.

I remember choking you.

I don't really remember hitting

much but I remember that.

- And do you think that there's any,

was there anything that prompted your actions?

Do you know what I mean?

Like did anything, do you feel like it was something,

like was it something I would do

and then you would get angry

or do you feel like it was just anger in general?

- I can't remember there being any,

any specific trigger or something like that.

I, clearly haven't remembered this.

- Hmm hmm.

How would you have preferred the relationship to be?

- Well, we'd still be together, wouldn't we?

(melodramatic music)

(women greeting each other)

- [Attiya] Alright, so have a seat.

- [Woman] Thank you.

- Does that make sense to you?

- [Woman] It does.

- Yeah? Great.

I'm gonna give you a list of numbers actually,

just so you have them in case.

But if you leave me a message,

I'll call you back on my next shift.

- [Woman] Okay.

- But this is the Assaulted Woman's Helpline

so you can call them 24 hours,

24 hours a day,

and it's completely confidential.

So if you're, you know,

I know last time you left a message,

it was pretty early in the morning.

- [Woman] Yes.

- [Attiya] Women are always asked why we stayed.

But I had questions for you.

I wanted to know if the memories

of violence stayed with you.

If you felt as damaged as I did.

But we needed help.

I remember when I asked if you would see a counselor,

you said that if you could help

even one man not choose violence,

then it'd be worth it.

- So Steve,

I've seen the footage of you and Attiya

in terms of that initial conversation that you had.

I really did have,

you know a number of questions in terms of,

you know, expressing anger in a relationship, you know.

There's lots of things to be,

you know, important things to be angry about.

Injustice, unfairness, you know,

that we should be angry about.

What are your thoughts about how you

would want to express that?

- That, that is something that is ongoing.

Um, anger, there's, um, there's arguments,

there's disagreements, there's fights,

and then there's a clear line where there's abuse.

- So if we have a conversation with Attiya,

you know, and my hunch is that probably some

of that past relationship issue

that probably still not healed.

What difference do you think it might make

if we studied some of that abuse now,

in preparation even for that kind of conversation?

- What, the insecurity and where I was?

- Yeah, and some of the behavior

and the choices that got made.

So, looking honestly at the abuse,

like you're saying.

Are you okay with my asking about the abuse?

- Yeah.

- Yeah, okay.

What are some of the things that you remember doing?

What are the things that stand out for you?

And there's probably stuff she remembers

and probably stuff you remember.

- We're talking what exactly I did?

- [Tod] Yeah, yeah. Were there names?

- Yeah, I'm sure.

- Do you remember what some of those names were?

- [Steve] Mmmm.

- [Tod] Bitch? Slut?

- I'm absolutely positive that it got worse

and more colorful than that.

It's funny I...

- [Tod] Did it include those words?

- Oh absolutely.

But more it's,

the physical stuff I remember.

- [Tod] Alright, can I ask you about that?

- Sure.

- [Tod] What do you remember?

- Just choking, punching.

- [Tod] Mm hmm. Choking, punching.

Is there any particular incident that stands out for you?

- There's plenty.

- Would you be willing to talk about one of them?

- You know, almost every instance was unbelievable.

There was one day,

Attiya had fainted.

- Do you know where you were?

- In our place.

These things only take place in,

where you can get away with it,

where it isn't seen.

- And when you say she fainted,

so this was an incident that happened?

- Absolutely.

- [Tod] Or there was abuse?

- [Steve] Mm hmm.

- Do you remember how it started?

- Not at all.

You know, these things

come unprovoked.

Most of the time.

- [Tod] Yeah.

And so do you remember what the conversation was about?

- Actually I don't even remember there being a conversation.

I just remember myself acting out and I...

- [Tod] And what did you do?

- I'm trying to actually figure that out right now.

I think I woke up and I don't know

if there's words said or what,

but I remember just tossing her off the bed.

And, um...

- [Tod] So when you say tossing her off the bed,

did you, how did you grab her?

- It was just like that.

- What's your thoughts about what was going on

through your mind at that point?

- Well, obviously I never want it to happen again.

Um, how do I make up for this?

How do I make it right?

- [Tod] What were some of the things

that you tried to do to?

- It's strange, you know.

I always tried the best I could

within our means back then to show appreciation.

But it all becomes null and void

the second you get angry again.

So it just cancels out everything

so you start from ground zero,

over and over again.

And a matter of fact, it just gets worse.

- Right.

'Cause what were you realizing afterwards

were the effects of what you were doing?

- (deep exhale) Well,

the last thing you really want,

and it's really weird with control,

is that you don't want someone scared of you

but at the same time with control,

it's, when you slip into it, you do.

- [Tod] So you can acknowledge that?

- Yeah.

- [Tod] In terms of her being scared?

- Absolutely.

- [Tod] Yeah, yeah.

Was that something that you were willing to acknowledge,

you know, back then?

- Not initially.

- [Tod] What's it like for you to acknowledge that,

you know, she was afraid of you?

- I can't be happy with that.

- When you look back,

what were some of the justifications and excuses

that got you acting, you know, against your values?

- Well, after an event you would always

allow yourself to think about it but not enough to refrain.

- [Tod] Yeah.

So you'd feel some shame afterwards?

- Of course.

- [Tod] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, it's not of course, but it is for you.

It's not a given.

- No, that's when you start trying

to make up for lost ground or

or over make up for lost ground,

you start treating the person, you know...

- [Tod] Kind of like the hallow

promises and the apologies,

that kind of stuff?

- Yeah. Yeah.

- [Tod] And what were some of those that you did?

- Well, of course that things will change or

that, you know, it won't happen again.

And of course they do.

But what's interesting is that when I say these things,

at that moment I really want those things.

Like, who doesn't wanna be in a healthy relationship?

So I don't understand that cycle for me.

(soft music)

(melodramatic music)

- [Attiya] I remember that last time you hit me.

The last time anyone hit me.

I had just finished working a shift in a club,

you had been watching me all night.

I remember feeling your hands around my neck.

I remember thinking,

this is so unfair 'cause I had just left you for good

a few days before.

The violence was supposed to stop.

(melodramatic music)

I thought, how am I supposed to work

until 2 in the morning,

be stalked, hit, and strangled,

and wake up for school the next morning?

But then I realized I could do it,

'cause I'd been doing it every day for the past two years.

And with that thought,

I pushed you off me,

kicked off my heals and ran.

(intense music)

- So Attiya,

Steve and I have been talking already, in conversation.

A lot of that conversation focused around

what's important to Steve and Steve's values,

and also, you know, wanting to

take responsibility for the harms that were done to you

in your relationship 20 years ago.

And sometimes people who have been harmed

find it helpful to actually have acknowledged

what those harms were and to actually speak about that.

Is there a particular incident that stands out for you?

- Well, the first thing I think of is

in our first conversation,

I brought up an incident that happened

and at the time Steve didn't fully remember it.

And it's one of the incidents

that kind of sticks in my mind.

It was just sort of one of those days

when you wake up and the abuse started right away,

and throughout the entire day.

You know, I feel like it got to a point

where it didn't escalate,

it just happened,

and it was just bad immediately.

I mean, I remember mostly just a lot of swearing,

right, a lot of fuck you.

- What would he say, fuck you, what else?

- I feel like I don't remember the words entirely.

But, you know, I remember at one point,

I'm trying to remember the set-up of our,

that apartment on Stirling.

But I remember there being,

I don't know if it was a closet or something

in that main room where...

- (clearing throat) There was a shelf.

- There was a shelf.

- Yeah.

- I remember being against that wall

and just being, like on the ground and,

yeah, Steve punching me and hitting me

and I was down already and crying.

Like it felt very, it was common, let's just say.

So at that point I just remember

defending myself and just being like,

this is how life is now so,

you know, curl up, defend your, you know,

I remember always trying to protect my head.

And, um,

you know I remember, you know, I'd be crying and,

the thing about this incident was,

remember I had that heart-shaped jewelry box?

- I do.

- The little glass one.

And I don't remember who gave it to me

but I didn't have very many things and it was special.

And I remember you grabbed it

and threw it against the wall and it smashed,

and I remember just being dragged

across that glass and that's where...

- Cut your knee.

- [Attiya] The knee...

- Were you afraid?

- I was afraid, yes.

- [Tod] What were you afraid of?

- I mean, I was afraid,

I was afraid I'd never get out of it,

you know, the abuse wouldn't stop.

I was afraid that...

- [Tod] And therefore what?

- That I'd be killed.

I thought I was gonna die.

- [Tod] What was it like living with

that day after day?

- (deep exhale) You know, it was, it was very,

it was hopeless.

It felt hopeless.

But there, yeah, I just felt like there was nothing that,

there was nothing that I could do about it

and it was just a matter of time.

- [Tod] Steve, I'm wondering if you'd be willing

to say what you hear Attiya saying

in terms of what her experience of that was.

- She was terrified of me

and she thought she was gonna die.

- [Tod] Why don't you tell her?

- You were terrified of me.

You thought you were gonna die.

- [Practitioner] Bring awareness to the throat,

the neck, the jaw,

right cheek, left cheek,

the nose and tip of the nose.

Right eye, left eye,

the forehead,

crown of the head,

the whole head,

the whole face,

the whole front of the body,

the whole body.

(soft music)

Inhaling

and exhaling.

Five, four, three.

- I am so angry at times,

but I'm afraid that if I say the wrong thing

you'll get up and leave.

I feel sorry for you and then guilty,

as if I am excusing the horrific violence

you had subjected me to.

(melodramatic music)

You're cute.

(coat zipper zipping)

- [Elliot] Thank you.

- [Attiya] All right, so you have the rest of them?

- Yeah, they're in my pocket.

- [Attiya] I kind of want it higher, though.

Sorry. (laughing)

There you go.

I'll see you soon.

- [Husband] See you soon.

(lips smacking)

- [Attiya] Bye love.

- [Elliot] Bye mom.

- [Attiya] See you soon.

- [Elliot] Okay.

- [Attiya] Bye.

- [Husband] Bye.

- [Elliot] Bye.

- [Elliot] I'm just gonna count.

- [Dad] You're just gonna count?

- [Elliot] Yeah.

- [Dad] You don't wanna hand them out?

- [Elliot] No, I don't.

- [Dad] Are you sure you don't wanna hand them out?

- [Elliot] Yeah.

- [Dad] Did you come to the vigil last year

or no you didn't?

- [Elliot] What's that?

- [Dad] A vigil is

basically a way of remembering people who died.

- [Elliot] No.

- [Dad] I think this is probably Michael.

Hi, yes, how are you?

Hi there. It's a White Ribbon Campaign,

it's men's action to end violence against women.

Thanks very much.

It's the White Ribbon Campaign,

it's men's action to end violence against women.

Sir, can I interest you a white ribbon?

It's the campaign of men speaking out

against violence against women.

(man whistling)

Hi Sir. It's the White Ribbon Campaign,

it's men speaking out against violence against women.

Just raising awareness.

Just showing support basically

against violence against women.

Thanks so much.

- [Elliot] 30. You got 30 dad!

(melodramatic music)

- So just catch me up.

You were being dragged across the floor.

- [Attiya] Hm hmm.

- [Tod] Yeah.

Were you yelling during that time, or screaming?

- I don't think so.

- I don't think so.

I think I was silent, you know.

- [Tod] Right, terrified.

- Uh-huh.

- [Tod] And then what happened?

- I remember sort of,

I remember being dragged to the bed and,

you know, hit more.

- [Tod] How were you being hit?

- Like punched.

- [Tod] Where were you being punched?

- In the face.

- [Tod] How many times do you think

you were being punched in the face?

- A lot.

- [Tod] And then what happened in this incident?

- So our faces were really close and I was,

I remember just being done.

I just felt bruised everywhere,

I felt limp, I had no energy.

And I'm lying there and I'm thinking,

please stop.

Just please stop.

Stop. I can't,

I don't think my body can do this anymore.

And, and then I just remember boom!

You know, and you head-butted me.

And I remember that's when I think I kind of was,

when I was unconscious.

And then I remember waking up.

And then I do remember you crying,

you know, and saying you were sorry.

But in that moment when I opened my eyes up and I was done,

I remember saying,

I don't know what I said to you but I may have just said,

fuck, Steve.

Right, like I think I was just, fuck.

Like you can't do this to me anymore.

- [Tod] Had Steve ever said he's sorry before?

- Yeah, he would say he's sorry after.

- [Tod] What was it like hearing

Steve say he was sorry?

- By this point,

it didn't really have meaning.

It was, I mean, I remember, like in my mind

I can picture being there and it's just like,

you're just kind of like,

you're rolling your eyes and you're like,

come on.

It's almost like you know, you're not fooling me.

You're not sorry.

- Would you be angry to hear that?

- [Attiya] Mm hmm, mm hmm.

- [Tod] What was the anger about?

- Well, it's like

someone's apologizing to you while laughing at you,

(laughing) you know?

It's like it doesn't have any,

it doesn't, it does have meaning actually,

but it's not that you're sorry.

It's confusing.

At the time I remember thinking,

well, if you're sorry, stop.

It's easy to say but that's, you know,

just stop.

- [Tod] Who's responsible for Steve

continuing to hit you?

- Steve.

It wasn't necessarily that I thought I was responsible

but I thought, as I was saying it,

like fuck, Steve, this has got to,

I knew that he wouldn't be pleased with that.

But you have to stand up somehow and,

and that was maybe what I was trying to do.

But I also really wanted it to stop, right?

And you have to have a voice somehow,

at certain points.

And this was bad.

I had nothing, I was,

there was nothing left really,

in terms of energy and,

you know this was my first real relationship

and we're living together

and we're 17.

- Yeah, that too.

- And I didn't know what a good,

like I knew this wasn't good

but I just thought, this is how life is.

This is what happens.

This is what your boyfriend does

and defend yourself and hope

that you don't get hurt too much and hope

that maybe you can de-escalate it.

- [Tod] What are you hearing in what Attiya's saying?

- You don't remember, do you?

- It makes sense now, the glass,

the heart-shaped glass thing.

I don't recall throwing it.

I remember you cutting your knee.

And at that junction,

I remember carrying you to the hospital.

I don't remember how much anger

and how twisted it was.

- [Tod] Can you handle her talking

about those kind of details?

- Yeah.

- So then he head-butted you?

- [Attiya] Hmm hmm.

- And what happened next?

- I got up to try and get away.

And at that point, like I was really weak

and so it didn't, it didn't take much,

right, to, I just had no energy to be able to keep running.

And so I remember just stopping and looking at him.

And then he turned me around

and that's when, you know,

you gave me the sleeper.

- [Tod] Steve, do you remember that?

Can I ask you about that?

What do you mean by the sleeper?

- It's where you put your hands on,

it's strangling until you pass out.

Oh god.

So it was just something that was easy to do

at a certain point and,

you know when you've had that done a lot

it doesn't actually take much to have you pass out.

And my neck was so swollen and used to it

that it would just,

you'd go like this and I would faint, you know.

- [Tod] What's it like to recall that?

- Fuck, I hate that one.

I just hate it.

(disbelieving laugh) Oh god, oh god.

(big exhale) It's the form of violence that I feel like,

it's very symbolic, you know, right?

Like when someone has their hands around you,

like your life is literally in their hands.

And I always thought, fuck, this is the way I'm gonna die.

And I always wondered like,

who did that to you?

I always thought someone must have done that to you,

you know, to do it to me.

You don't have to answer,

it's always something that

I've wondered, you know, to have something

that's so violent but so easily used.

- Steve, do you remember that?

- (clearing throat) I do now.

My recollection was I tossed you off the bed

and you passed out.

You cut your knee.

I carried you to the hospital.

It's much worse than that.

What you're reminding me of is the level of anger.

Not quite hate, but anger.

- [Attiya] Hmm hmm.

- When you look back at it as an adult,

what were you taking out on Attiya?

- Absolutely everything.

- [Tod] And what was everything?

Had you experienced violence?

- Mm hmm, yeah.

- [Tod] Do you think there's any relationship between

that experience and what was going on there?

- Definitely.

- [Tod] Can you just speak to that for a second?

- It's an incapacity to deal with your own feelings

in a productive way.

It's just explosive

and it always happens to the one that's closest to you.

And not with you,

it's most about my experience

before I came to live with you.

- [Attiya] Hmm hmm.

- [Tod] And what did you hear her say about her neck?

- (deep exhale) That is was already swollen,

that I had probably done it,

and I had done it,

many, many times.

- [Tod] Do you think Steve is picking up

some of what your experience is?

I mean it's resonating with some

of his own experiences of being hurt.

Do you think he's getting what you're talking about?

- I do, yeah.

Like I knew that I kind of came here

and I really wanted to talk about this incident.

And, um, I mean it's one that,

well, it's also because for the longest time

it's the one that I would you know,

one of the ones that I would have nightmares about,

you know, or that I was the most afraid of.

And I think I wanna let this incident go.

(soft music)

- [Practitioner] Okay, well things

have certainly settled down nicely.

(soft music)

- [Attiya] There are some things

I can't bring myself to ask you.

The way you called me ugly,

a Paki, you had a thousand ways to say

how deserving I was of being hit,

spit on, made fun of because I was brown.

There are some hurts that stay deep

and hidden in the body.

(soft music)

- [Attiya] Hi!

- [Seth] Good to see ya!

- [Attiya] Good to see you.

How are you doing?

Seth entered my life when you and I were close

to the end of our relationship.

- It's a bit of a walk.

- Like how long?

My memories of this time are unclear.

I needed to know what he remembered.

To ask why he had intervened,

when no one else did.

- [Seth] I think the crazy thing,

and I mean you've said this,

is that to people that didn't know,

he was a really nice guy.

- [Attiya] Yes.

- [Seth] Like he seemed totally normal and friendly and,

and fun, and so I think we did get along in that sense.

- [Attiya] Well, he could be that, right?

I think that's part of the point.

- Part of the whole thing at that time was

me and my friends were always just kind of

wanting to be heroes,

we wanted to be super heroes.

And like you were this person who seemed,

and was, like totally sweet and seemed very just innocent,

and there were just so many horrible things happening.

And so initially it was just like

this is a great opportunity to like help somebody.

- So there came a point

where you decided to hang out with him,

and it was kind of like a plan.

Is that right?

- Yeah, I thought it was,

there were times when

we worked out that you needed to do something

or you just needed time so

we would try to hang out with Steve

to give you time on your own or something like that.

- [Attiya] Once we started dating,

I feel like we didn't talk about Steve and I

and what had happened.

- [Seth] I remember it being a big

component of what happened. (laughing)

- Okay.

I mean in a way I think you have the most details

in terms of like when it was happening

and when we first got together, right,

about what actually happened.

- I didn't know how to help you.

- [Attiya] Right.

- (laughing) I didn't know what to do with any of that.

- But I think what you,

who you were helped me, right?

'Cause you were like

super loving and caring and gentle.

(laughing) In a way I don't know how you put

up with me right after that.

- For me, it was hard to be,

'cause I didn't have,

like now I think I have more skills

on how to be there to listen

and try not to fix, but just try to be there.

And I think I kind of did that 'cause,

I don't know, I cared about you

and that's about all I could do.

But, uh, I don't know.

- Which was huge, right, to be listened to considering,

you know, when I was with Steve I couldn't talk, right?

I wasn't heard,

I didn't have any voice.

So I think, I mean,

when I look back on it the truth is like I see you,

you know, and your group of friends, you know,

like you guys actually saved me, you know.

Like I don't,

if you hadn't come into my life,

like I actually think I'd be dead.

(train whistling)

(melodramatic music)

(telephone ringing)

- [Husband] Hey Babe.

- [Attiya] Hi love.

- [Husband] How are you doing?

- [Attiya] I'm a bit, um, you know,

anxious about going tomorrow.

Steve and I are gonna kinda check out

the apartments basically,

both places that we lived in together.

- [Husband] When's the last time you were at the,

at those apartments?

- [Attiya] I think I was with you.

- [Husband] So that would have been the summer

before we got married.

That would have been

a little more than a decade ago.

- [Attiya] Okay. Wow!

- [Husband] So that's a long time ago.

- [Attiya] Yeah, and did we got to both apartments?

- [Husband] I think we only went to one apartment.

- Okay, yeah. That was the first place

that Steve and I lived at

once we had left mom's place.

We're gonna actually go in the school.

That'll be interesting.

Yeah, I remember everything,

but I don't remember the school.

I think it's 'cause when I was there

it was just like I wasn't really there.

I was always kind of thinking about other things and,

yeah, it's just, blah.

- [Husband] Yeah.

- Yeah, alright babe.

Well, I'll talk with you tomorrow.

And you can call me in the morning if, or

if Elliot wants to talk with me in the morning

give me a ring.

- [Husband] Okay, we'll call you tomorrow.

- Okay, love.

- [Husband] Okay, sleep well, love you.

- Love you too.

- [Husband] Bye.

- Bye.

(melodramatic music)

- [Steve] Wooo, you can start to get the feeling already.

- [Attiya] (large exhale) Yeah, the...

- [Steve] The building...

- That's Stirling. That's Stirling!

- With the houses all,

looks about right.

You can kind of see it, remember this already.

- That wasn't there, the little park.

It's cute.

I wish some of this stuff was here when we lived here.

(clears throat)

Are you cool with starting here?

- I'll leave my bag.

- [Attiya] Okay. You're gonna leave it?

- [Steve] Yeah.

- I think I'll leave mine too.

I'll just grab my,

I don't know.

I'm gonna bring this.

(deep breathing)

Shall we?

- Yeah.

- [Attiya] Yeah.

(melodramatic music)

It was brick, right?

- [Steve] It certainly was.

(soft music)

It's all new.

- [Attiya] It's like they just slapped

that stuff over, right?

- [Steve] Yeah.

- [Attiya] And this was just vacant.

Have you ever come back here?

- Never, no.

- I came back like I think twice,

just, you know, to see it.

I remember sometimes this is where I would sit

if I ran out or whatever,

or had to get out.

And I would just sit here.

And what I can't stand even more is like,

like... I don't know.

For me I remember all like bungalow houses there

but I remember just like escaping.

- [Steve] It was a purple house.

- It was a purple house, right?

And I remember I'd like run out the door,

run that way, and no one would help, right.

And like I remember, I actually remember people,

well, one house specifically closing their curtains,

you know, when I was like yelling and screaming for help,

I'd just run and no one,

no one on this street ever helped.

You would think though like that one person

on the entire street would have helped.

We should probably go soon but I think I might.

- Yeah?

- [Attiya] I think I'm gonna puke.

- For real?

- [Attiya] I'm gonna go to the side of the building.

- Are you serious?

- Yeah I feel like I'm gonna throw up.

- [Steve] Do you want to just?

- [Attiya] Oh god, yeah, the side.

(Steve clears throat)

(Attiya deep breathing)

- [Steve] Attiya?

- [Attiya] I'm trying to make it come up.

- [Steve] I know, I know.

Do you mind me being here?

- [Attiya] No, no, not at all,

(heavy breathing)

Did you just,

do you block that place out of your mind?

Or have you ever thought about it?

- I think about it but,

for the most part I block it out.

- For me, I think the biggest thing is,

oh (large exhale)

even though I felt like I was gonna puke,

it's like there's something about going back

with you and seeing that place and feeling safe.

You know, it's like a different...

- I never thought about that.

- Yeah.

- It didn't dawn on me.

- So for me it's like huge, right,

to be able to go

stand there with you and know that I'm safe.

- I'll probably never come back here.

(heavy footsteps)

- [Attiya] We had to leave Stirling, is that the deal?

- [Steve] Oh yeah.

- [Attiya] Yeah, okay.

- [Steve] We didn't have to leave but we chose to leave.

We were moving into a situation with a roommate.

- [Attiya] Oh yeah.

- [Steve] I took that as

an opportunity to put us in a situation

where I couldn't act out.

Shit, would that be our bedroom?

- [Attiya] Yeah, that's the bedroom.

- [Steve] Does this place get to you?

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't,

not in the same way in that the other apartment does,

but, again, I think for me it was the whole

like we came here,

I didn't realize that you had,

that's interesting to me

that you were also really hopeful moving here

because someone else would be

in the house with us and we thought...

- Yeah, I just wanted someone to keep things in check.

- Right.

- [Steve] Right.

- And I mean I can't,

obviously a lot of abuse happened here

but, for me, I had to like,

what it meant, it's just that I had to

try and be quiet about it,

do you know what I mean?

Like you had to...

- Back to that...

- I had to,

I tried not to make it sound like there was violence.

- I don't remember much from here.

(melodramatic music)

I think our lockers were right around here.

Oh, actually just right here.

- [Attiya] Really?

- [Steve] Yeah.

In this section.

- [Attiya] We had them together?

- [Steve] Yeah.

- I was never in this classroom.

I remember you being in this one.

Did you get along with him?

- [Steve] Very well.

- Yeah, I remember that

there was one teacher that you really got along with.

- He would, I remember the first day I came in

I was late

and he kind of berated me

and I really shot back at him.

But during class, you know,

I realized that respect is respect

and I interrupted the class and I apologized.

And from that point forward he

had quite a great degree of respect for me.

- [Attiya] Huh.

- But going forward he actually also knew

what was going on.

- He did?

- Yeah, yeah.

- How do you know that?

- We would talk about it.

- Oh wow.

- Yeah.

- So do you remember actually like learning stuff here?

- Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I did, I did my best here.

- Huh.

See I have no,

I don't remember learning a thing.

But for me I guess it was different, right,

'cause I was just,

like I, to look at, like I never looked up

in this school, right?

I was always looking down 'cause I was afraid

that you'd see me looking up at someone or, right?

- [Steve] Oh boy.

- So, right?

So I'd have to leave class, look down,

and just go and try not to talk to anybody,

see anybody.

I would hope that no one that we knew

would talk with me going to class.

And then in class I wouldn't concentrate

and I'd just be thinking,

like where's the next class?

And, you know, are you gonna follow me?

Am I gonna look up at the wrong time at somebody?

So for me when I come here I'm just like, whoa,

this is what it looks like?

- [Steve] Yeah.

- I had no...

- And that's just nuts for me to hear.

Because I would think you'd feel that way at home

but not out here.

- Right, yeah.

I mean in one way for me this was like

a place where I could just be, right,

'cause nothing violent ever happened here that I remember,

'cause it felt safe to me.

Even though I was constantly looking over my shoulder,

I mean the whole time,

and not necessarily comfortable

but at least I felt a sense of, like it was a,

I just, my body felt safe here,

you know, as a way to kinda come down a little bit.

Should we go downstairs or do you wanna?

- [Steve] Sure, yeah.

- We can go back that way if you want.

- This should put us in the front again I think.

- [Attiya] Okay, let's check.

(heavy footsteps)

There was this assumption that we were drinking

and doing drugs, we weren't.

- It would make it maybe more palatable

to think that maybe we were, I was being unruly

because I was maybe doing drugs and drinking.

- Right.

- I don't know, but that's not the case.

- No.

- I, I got there on my own.

- [Attiya] Right, huh.

I actually came back here.

- Okay.

- [Attiya] 'Cause I wanted to come see the guidance

counselor and just say thank...

- Was she here?

- She was here.

And, you know, she hugged me and asked about you.

And I thanked her 'cause I said, you know,

what you did, even just to talk to someone

who seemed to care was really huge for us.

And I said how much even just getting bus tickets

or whatever, you know, how that

really affected our lives.

And, and then this teacher walked in

and she looked at me.

She was like oh! I recognize you!

And she said, "I've always wondered what happened to you.

"I know when you were here things were really hard."

And I said...

- [Steve] See, it was like universally known almost.

- [Attiya] And I said, "Well what does that mean?

"Like things were hard, like what did you see?"

- Yeah.

- [Attiya] Right?

And she's like well, I know, like I saw bruises

on you all the time.

And I said, "Did you, I don't remember

"us ever having a conversation about that."

And she just kinda looked at me.

And I was like, no, I just,

I don't remember, did we?

And she was like no.

And I wasn't gonna, you know, I just.

- [Steve] Enough said, yeah.

- That's all, yeah.

And, then I just said, "You know what, I'm doing good."

And she was like that's great.

And then I,

like that was it, it was a really short meeting.

- [Steve] Running's interesting.

You can forget in, in the moment, kind of, sort of.

You know, you can drink,

you can high, you can do a lot of things,

but everything is always waiting for you,

you know.

And you deal with it a little bit,

and then you start running again.

And so you just can procrastinate

and it's just like dealing with it is ongoing,

you know?

- [Attiya] I think there's a lot going on with you

and I feel like there's a lot,

yeah, I just think there's a lot more

that you have to say

but you don't feel safe or comfortable coming forward yet.

I don't know if that's true but that's what I'm feeling.

- Oh there's probably some truth to that.

- [Attiya] The details.

Do you know what I mean?

- Yeah.

- [Attiya] And, and I don't just mean the abuse, right.

Like just details.

- I really just want you to be okay

and I don't know where you are with that.

So? You wanna eat?

- Hungry?

- [Steve] Yeah, you wanna eat?

- Okay, let's do it.

(melodramatic music)

So there's Zaphod's, right?

- [Steve] Really?

- [Attiya] Did you go to Zaphod's?

- [Steve] We went a few times.

- [Attiya] We did?

- [Steve] Mm hmm.

- [Attiya] I think we sat,

so this was the day we met, right?

We came here for lunch and I think that...

- [Steve] We sat in the back there?

- But then we'd come here.

- We've come,

Yeah, we came here afterwards, yeah.

- [Attiya] But look, everyone's like young in there.

It's what you,

it's what you do.

It's so pretty, eh?

I don't remember it being that pretty.

(melodramatic music)

I wish I had said more.

How can you not remember abusing me every day in that house?

But I needed you to be the one to say it.

Maybe you felt that it wasn't your right.

But I know that deep down you remember.

(melodramatic music)

- So Steve,

when Attiya first approached you with this project,

you know, what were you thinking?

- I was prepared to be called out for things, events.

- And how come you were signing up for that?

- Simply because I felt that,

I have an opportunity,

to facilitate some healing,

to help that process.

And I'm healing as well.

- When you think about, you know,

your experience before Attiya,

what was the relationship between some of

those experiences and some of the ideas

that came off of that?

So for example,

it's not uncommon for many of the guys

that I work with to have been, you know,

violated in their youth and then enter in.

And part of what they learn about

that is that close relationships aren't safe, you know.

And so part of what they pull into their relationships

is needing to protect themselves

'cause they're gonna get hurt.

And so part of that protection becomes a wall.

Is there a relationship between what happened

to you before the age of 18

and the choices that you made

when you were in your relationship with Attiya?

- To some degree, yeah, yeah.

I think that this might be as far as I'll take it,

but I think some things occurred

with me that got me so frustrated and angry,

that even when those things didn't occur in my life anymore

I was so frustrated and angry

and I brought that with me.

So, you know, these instances did occur,

it's just that I didn't have the capacity

to let it go at that age.

You know?

- [Tod] So injustices that you experienced?

- Yeah.

- So there's different ideas in our culture around justice.

What are your ideas around,

in terms of making things right in this situation

and what does that mean to you?

- I think,

to be honest I don't wanna even

flirt with the idea of justice

unless Attiya was sitting here.

- [Tod] Just say more about that.

- I wanna know if she feels

that justice has taken place

and whatever definition she has of that.

- [Tod] Why is that important to you?

- That is when you can pack things up

and leave it in a place behind you

where you can start owning your life again

as opposed to I'm an abuser, I'm a victim.

- [Husband] Do you want any more coffee?

- [Attiya] I'm okay,

thank you.

- [Husband] When should we wake Elliot up?

- [Attiya] I think we should just let him sleep.

(soft music)

- [Husband] Are you stressed about the party, or no?

- Uh, no, surprisingly.

I don't have any stress left.

- [Husband] Do you think of it as a party?

- [Attiya] I do, it is.

Every year I commemorate my anniversary away from you.

Some years it's been as simple as lighting a candle.

This year it's something more.

(melodramatic music)

What do you think about Steve?

What are your general thoughts?

- I'm actually not sure how to answer that question,

you know?

Naturally I would be angry with anybody who hurt you.

I mean, if someone were to hurt now

I'd be very angry with them.

But I also think I thought,

what's the point of my being angry with him

and basically deferring to your judgment about Steve?

But I'm also not

applauding him for participating in this process in a way.

You know, I think I would be actually

quite angry if he withdrew from the process.

I feel like he at least owes you this.

And you've actually created an opportunity for him

to help other people

and to actually make his life better,

that he wouldn't otherwise have.

- So Steve, Attiya,

we've been talking about some of the effects

of the choices that you made.

So Steve, what your thoughts about

Attiya being angry still at those choices

that you made at the same time

she's being, you know, compassionate with you?

- It's absolutely reasonable.

It's, I'm angry that I made poor choices.

You know, but it would have been interesting

to see where it went without those choices.

- I'm just curious,

before we started having these conversations,

did you think about what I thought of you,

like over the, the time?

- For sure, yeah.

No, I was an absolute asshole, monster.

Right?

The worst thing that's happened in your life.

- You know, I mean I've always wondered if,

you know, you stopped to think like wow,

I wonder how Attiya is or

how she's deal, how she dealt...

- Always, always.

But even if I thought that,

just even trying to reach out to you,

do you even wanna try and reach out to someone

that you've put in that position?

Is she gonna feel threatened?

Is it gonna set all kinds of triggers off?

I just had to leave that be

and try and deal with it the best I could.

- I'm wondering what you think was influencing

your choices to, you know,

use violence against Attiya when you were younger?

If you could talk about...

- Why I feel I chose violence?

- [Tod] Yeah, what were some of

the things that were going on for you?

- I was, (embarrassed sigh)

I was so desperate to be in a supportive relationship.

As dysfunctional as it is

I used violence to keep you exactly where you were,

beside me.

- So you wouldn't lose me?

- Yeah, and in doing so I was losing you.

I was just obviously gonna do anything

to keep you at my side,

regardless of how manipulative that was.

- What's it like for both of you to talk about

the context of your relationship back then?

- I guess it's just, (deep exhale)

well, some of it is just,

I was never believed, right,

and so that it was that bad.

Or even within our relationship,

like at times I just thought that I was crazy.

And so to be able to hear you kind of

even say, you know, Attiya,

I'm starting to remember some of these

things that you're talking about,

it just gives it credibility,

like it did happen.

'Cause sometimes I would just question myself, like really?

Was it, did that happen?

Was it that bad?

And now that we're acknowledging this

and talking about it,

I can move past that

to kind of think about the full story.

But I think that had to happen to get here, I think.

- Right, yeah.

Yeah, we had to unearth a lot of stuff, right?

- [Attiya] Yeah.

- And for me it was difficult,

because not only am I doing this with you,

I'm doing it in a public forum.

But, you know,

I stand knowing that I'm doing the right thing,

and everything else is secondary.

So, you know, am I being truthful?

Am I being honest?

Am I being sincere?

You know, you're my barometer on that.

(melodramatic music)

- This is very hard for me

and I feel like I can't find my words. (laughing)

But what I do want to tell you

'cause I haven't spoken to or seen so many of you,

is that I'm actually doing okay. (laughing)

(soft music)

Hey!

- [Woman] Hello, how are you doing?

(soft music)

If you look across the room,

one woman among two,

so the ratio one to two women,

has experienced a variation of physical,

emotional, sexual,

and whatever gamut or the continuum of violence.

And that's a sad fact.

I mean we can look at it as statistics,

but that's a really sad fact.

- So,

(melodramatic music)

on July 20th, it was the last time he hit me,

it was the last time he strangled me,

it's the last time he dragged me by my hair.

I wouldn't have been able to say that three years ago

and for me it's really important,

for people to hear the real story.

I feel like for the first time,

in ever that I'm healing.

And that also isn't something I expected

during this process in sitting down with him.

I'm so happy that I've been able to

take this date and replace it

with something that is so fantastic like this

and to have all you here to support me,

to listen to my story, to learn.

What I've learned the most is

that we really need to be talking

about this in a public way.

This is not what I want everyone to do,

is go back to their abusive ex

and have conversations, right?

But that's what it's doing for me

and I didn't expect that from this.

And that's kind of awesome.

I'll do this first piece and then I'll...

And I do actually wanna say a thank you

to Steve for doing this,

the hardest thing that he may have ever done,

or ever will do.

And I think it's just happy 23rd anniversary today!

(laughing and cheering)

Thank you everyone, again.

Thanks for listening and thanks for sharing.

You gave me more than I expected.

The old Steve would never have listened to me,

or taken responsibility,

but this is not the end,

for us, or for so many others.

There's so much more to say.

♪ Put your words into the fire

♪ Watch them burn your heart's desires

♪ Rise up in the air

♪ In a cloud of silk and smoke and dust

♪ Fade into the night

♪ It's a comforting feeling with you by my side

♪ Let me shake your honest hands

♪ And I'll sit down beside you now

♪ Lean our heavy heads

♪ Of the weight of the things that are left unsaid

♪ Don't worry about it now

♪ 'Cause in the morning they will

♪ All just be ashes on the ground

♪ So what's been on your mind

♪ Ooo ooo ooo ooo

♪ Eating you inside

♪ Ooo ooo ooo ooo

♪ Taking all of your time

♪ Ooo ooo ooo ooo

♪ On this warm summer night

♪ Put your words down in the fire

♪ When we were down at sandy beach

♪ Old man talking in young man's words

♪ Tell me where you would like to be

♪ Tonight don't be afraid to dream

♪ Lean on the fire for a while

♪ Cause in the morning it will

♪ All just be ashes on the ground

♪ So what's been on your mind

♪ Ooo ooo ooo ooo

♪ Eating you inside

♪ Ooo ooo ooo ooo

♪ Taking all of your time

♪ Ooo ooo ooo ooo

♪ On this warm summer night

♪ Put those words down in the fire ♪