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Previously on The Hack. I'm friends with
Claire Rue Castle -Brown, the
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journalist and sister -in -law of Gordon
Brown. He's leaning in.
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Murdoch's ambition has limited us, but
he's overstepped here.
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Part of a new operation.
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Operation Wheating. We're investigating
allegations of phone hacking. Contact of
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mine in the floor has been put on it.
He's feeding me.
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This is selling you a lot more, Kenny.
This could get you in serious trouble.
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Hello. Dev, it's Mike at the Sun.
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Give Panorama, Mike Sullivan, Nick
Davis, anything about our cases and
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strung up for all to see.
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I was in the database.
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News of the World, April 14th, 2002.
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Millie Dowler. Jingle says there is a
page on Dowler in Marquez notebooks.
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The News of the World will not be
forgiven for this.
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I was being drawn to stories again and
again with the same theme. A deep
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urge to hit back at anybody at all who
takes power and abuses it.
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Our guest now joining us from the
newsroom of The Guardian is Nick Davies,
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-winning journalist who has brought
phone hacking into the light. Hi.
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Now, Nick Davies, could you have
predicted the furore that the Millie
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Dowler case seems to have caused?
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Predicted, no, but I do think it speaks
well for the British public, for the
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world public, that a furore has been
provoked.
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You have Rupert Murdoch firmly on the
ropes.
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I have to say, I'm horrified that they
closed the News of the World. Good
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journalists have lost their jobs.
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I believe this was a cynical move on
Murdoch's part to help aid his capture
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-Sky B.
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And what do you think it is about the
Millie Dowler case that has had such an
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impact? Well, what we discovered was
that during the period of her
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disappearance, News of the World were
using a private investigator to listen
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her voicemails.
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So that in itself is horrid, deeply
personal stuff.
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Friends and family.
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still thought she may have run away and
were imploring her to come home. The
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voicemail filled up, which is why they
deleted the messages.
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Now, friends and family who had
previously heard the message voicemail
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surprised by this, and the presumption
became that Millie was still alive.
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I guess we all want to know whether
Rupert Murdoch will feature in front of
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Levison inquiry, and what. Well, before
Levison, actually, Rupert Murdoch is due
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to speak at the House of Commons Media
Select Committee.
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We want to get answers from him as to
what he knew about phone hacking,
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widespread practice at his newspaper,
when he knew about it, and why he didn't
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act.
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Nick Davies, thank you for joining us.
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Thank you for having me.
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With a Rupert Bales in us, I don't know.
Well, you could compel him. The thing
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you need to ask is, can you truly compel
Murdoch to do anything?
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Are we singing Happy Birthday? So who's
getting to ask the first question? Well,
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I do, though. Nick is intent on writing
it for me.
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I think we should sing... No, Happy
Birthday's a terrible song. Nick thinks
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Happy Birthday's fascistic. It is
culturally fascistic. Everyone has to
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same song on their bloody birthday.
We're the individuality. Well, we could
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sing...
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What's the one where we count the
candles on the birthday cake? Have we
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energy? Well, speech.
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At least we deserve a speech. Yes, yes.
On your feet.
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No. But, okay, I would like to thank you
all for coming, and I would like to
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remind you we have work to do. The
select committee is our chance, with
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on the stand. And I won't let you down.
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No, no, no, Tom, I'm not saying that.
Maybe I should have let you retire.
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You were going to retire?
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Move to Belgium.
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Ah! Chocolate. And then with Levinson
making sure that we're fully prepared.
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Nick, Nick. Today we celebrate. A prep
session would have been much more
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preferable to any kind of birthday.
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Not only are the songs fascistic, but
Nick thinks birthdays are narcissistic.
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likes to work. How nice then that none
of his friends came, just the people he
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works with.
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Now you're treading a very fine line
between insulting me.
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Happy birthday to you.
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Happy birthday to you. Oh, God.
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Happy birthday, dear Neil.
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Happy birthday to you.
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Hi. Hi. So, good news and bad news. Good
news, it's all cooking nicely for the
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Select Committee. The bad news, you are
going to have to give evidence at
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Leveson. It needs your heft, it needs...
Look, Alan's house may have been
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compromised. What?
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He hired someone to sweep his house for
bugs. That person subcontracted it. The
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person who subcontracted it too worked
for him as an associate of his.
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How do you know? I can't tell you.
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I know Rhys has been bragging about how
he knows the bugs people.
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You feel?
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Ask Alan about the socks he keeps under
the piano.
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The socks.
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Oh, Christ.
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It's true.
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I like him.
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I'd get a better feel for the piano if I
played barefoot. Alan, you do not have
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good hiring practice. It seems possible
to claim. You hired someone to debug
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your house, and instead they may have
compromised.
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Are my children in danger?
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Dave doesn't think so.
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Don't know about you and me.
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We've got Murdoch on the stand.
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They know they're being hunted.
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Call it Hannibal, most vicious Hannibal
of all.
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Fuck.
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I thought the worst of it was over.
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The day after Cameron announced the
Leveson inquiry into phone hacking, the
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Select Committee issued an order
summoning Rupert Murdoch.
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and his son James to attend Parliament
on the 19th of July to basically explain
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themselves.
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The significance of this moment was not
lost on any of us. If we asked the right
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questions, we could ensnare them, both
father and son.
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Okay, everyone, settle now, please.
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We are now in session.
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Mr. Watson will ask the first question.
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Mr. Murdoch Sr., Mr. Murdoch Jr., good
afternoon. Thanks for coming in today.
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My first question is for Mr. Murdoch Sr.
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You have repeatedly stated that News
Corp has zero tolerance to wrongdoing by
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employees. Is that right?
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Is that me?
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Yes.
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In October 2010, did you still believe
it to be true when you made your
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speech and you said, let me be clear, we
will vigorously pursue the truth and we
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will not tolerate wrongdoing?
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Yes.
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So if you were not lying then, somebody
lied to you.
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Who was it?
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I don't know.
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That is what the police are
investigating and we are helping them
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But you acknowledge that you were
misled?
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Clearly.
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If I can take you to 2006, when Clive
Goodman was
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arrested and subsequently convicted of
intercepting voicemails.
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Were you made aware of that?
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I think so. I was certainly made aware
of when they were convicted.
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And what did News International do
subsequent to the arrest of Clive
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Glenn Mulcair to get to the facts?
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We worked with the police on further
investigation and eventually we
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very quickly appointed, a very leading
firm of lawyers in the city to
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investigate it further. What did you
personally do to investigate that?
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After Mr Goodman went to prison, you
were obviously concerned about it.
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I spoke to Mr.
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Hinton, who told me about it.
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Okay.
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In 2008, another two years, why did you
not dismiss News of the World
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chief reporter Neville Thirlbeck
following the Mosley case?
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I'd never heard of him.
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So none of your...
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UK staff drew your attention to this
serious wrongdoing, even though the case
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received widespread media attention?
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I think my son can perhaps answer that
in more detail. He was a lot closer to
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it. I will come to your son in a minute.
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Can I ask you, when did you first meet
Mr Alex Maranchak?
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Mr...? Alex Maranchak.
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He worked for the company for 25 years.
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I don't remember meeting him. I might
have shaken hands walking through the
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office, but I don't have any memory.
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Mr Murdoch Senior, you seem to indicate
that you had a rather hands -off
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approach to your company.
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Could you just give us an illustration
of how often you would speak to the
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editors of your newspapers?
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For example, how often you would speak
to the editor of The Sun or to the
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of the News of the World?
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Very seldom.
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Sometimes I'd ring the editor of the
News of the World on a Saturday night
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say, have you got any news tonight?
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But it was just to keep in touch.
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Well, I'm intrigued as to how the
conversations might go.
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I imagine that to the editor of the News
of the World, it might go along the
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lines of anything to report.
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And the editor of the News of the World
says no.
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No, it's been a standard week. We paid
Gordon Taylor £600 ,000.
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He never said that last sentence.
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I mean, surely in your weekly
conversation with the editor of the News
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World, with something as big as that,
paying someone a million pounds, paying
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someone £700 ,000, I mean, surely you'd
have expected the editor to just drop it
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into the conversation at some point
during your weekly chat.
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No, I'd say, what's doing?
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Sorry?
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I'd say what's doing.
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And what sort of response would you
expect?
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He might say we've got a great story
exposing X or Y, or he would say more
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likely nothing special.
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He might refer to the fact that however
many extra pages were dedicated to the
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football that week.
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But he wouldn't tell you about a million
pound pail?
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I just want to say that I was brought up
by a father who was not rich, but who
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was a great journalist.
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And he, just before he died, bought a
small paper specifically in his will
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saying he was giving me the chance to do
good.
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Now, I remember what he did and what he
was most proud of and for which he was
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hated in this country by many people for
many, many years, which was to expose
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the scandal at Gallipoli, which I remain
very, very proud of. I think that all
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students of history will be...
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Um, the fitting is suspended.
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Fuck it.
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The defence told the court the father of
one from Windsor had wanted to show his
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revulsion over the scantlet news
international.
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I could get my hands on that phone.
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He then cut it. He thinks, what, that
his amateur dramatics are more useful
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what we were doing in that room. Good
questions were asked.
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Yeah, they were, and they weren't
answered.
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And that obligation is important.
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Oh, it was.
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Oh, God.
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Awful senile act Murdoch was putting on.
That needed writing about, but now
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every paper will carry one thing and one
thing only. Wendy Murdoch fighting for
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her man.
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You're worrying too much, Nick.
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You don't understand news cycles.
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Yeah, but it's still Leveson. Yeah,
nothing else but Leveson. There is no
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but Leveson air. If Leveson doesn't
produce... Then what?
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You're going to hide under a tea towel
for the rest of your life?
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Well, Nick, a serious inquiry led by
quite a clever bloke is happening
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of your journalism.
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It could mean regulation, ethics, maybe
even an appropriate relationship between
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press, politicians and police.
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When did you become the positive one?
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Oh, fuck off.
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Lord Leveson's report's given us a new
press and a new Dave Cook.
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Fuck off.
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Why?
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What's the latest with the select
committee?
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We're going to get James Murdoch back
in. On what grounds?
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Clarity on whether or not he was told
about the Neville email.
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Why are there police officers in our
newsroom?
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What?
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They want to talk to Amelia.
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Amelia? What about her?
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They're citing the official secret type.
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Yeah. Hi, where are you? On my way
somewhere. I can't tell you where.
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Amelia, this is Alan.
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00:14:18,890 --> 00:14:20,410
Alan, I'm just on my way to meet
someone.
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What's going on?
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I think you should come in.
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They're upset.
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They're saying they won't leave until
they've spoken to you.
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No, no way. Not without a lawyer.
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Agreed.
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They don't like my biscuits and they
don't like my small talk about Chopin.
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They're saying they need your notebooks.
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If you can't find your notebooks,
they'll get a warrant and head to your
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00:14:44,090 --> 00:14:47,650
They're also saying that notebooks
aren't in your flat. They could visit
236
00:14:47,650 --> 00:14:50,850
mother. Tell them I'm not going to give
up my source or my notes.
237
00:14:51,510 --> 00:14:52,590
I'd rather go to prison.
238
00:14:53,530 --> 00:14:54,530
Right.
239
00:14:57,490 --> 00:14:58,490
Good.
240
00:14:58,690 --> 00:15:01,970
I'll contact some friends, give you some
recommendations, or you can find a
241
00:15:01,970 --> 00:15:03,770
lawyer for yourself, a human rights
specialist.
242
00:15:04,030 --> 00:15:05,030
This will get leaked.
243
00:15:05,290 --> 00:15:07,070
Right? I expect that.
244
00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,900
But you might need to stay somewhere
else tonight with your friends. Is that
245
00:15:10,900 --> 00:15:11,900
what happens?
246
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,280
We were exposing them, not the other way
around. It isn't what happens.
247
00:15:16,420 --> 00:15:18,820
But it does seem to be what's happening.
248
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:21,640
I'm so sorry.
249
00:15:31,420 --> 00:15:32,420
Hi.
250
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:33,720
Hi.
251
00:15:35,020 --> 00:15:36,020
How are you?
252
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:41,760
Okay. I'm calling about Leveson.
253
00:15:43,020 --> 00:15:45,440
I'm going to apply to be a core
participant.
254
00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,000
The group packed off. I don't know if
you've... Yeah, yeah.
255
00:15:48,300 --> 00:15:51,400
Well, they saw the Channel 4 interview
and they've been pretty insistent that I
256
00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:52,319
say something.
257
00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:59,020
Not that they're making me... They seem
very good
258
00:15:59,020 --> 00:16:02,400
people. They don't really have anyone to
talk to about the Met from the inside
259
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:03,600
and I think that's why they want me.
260
00:16:05,020 --> 00:16:06,580
Oh, and they have you and they have me.
261
00:16:09,550 --> 00:16:10,550
You're doing it too?
262
00:16:11,110 --> 00:16:13,150
I registered yesterday. I was going to
email.
263
00:16:13,950 --> 00:16:14,950
There are implications.
264
00:16:16,230 --> 00:16:17,710
Sure. For the kids.
265
00:16:19,410 --> 00:16:22,010
We'll have to speak to their school,
their friends. We could be targets.
266
00:16:23,890 --> 00:16:25,810
Why is it worse me doing it than you?
267
00:16:27,970 --> 00:16:29,030
Because of Daniel Morgan.
268
00:16:29,930 --> 00:16:31,130
Because the case collapsed.
269
00:16:33,010 --> 00:16:36,110
They said you were feeding lines to a
witness. You don't think they're going
270
00:16:36,110 --> 00:16:38,190
use that against you if you give
evidence?
271
00:16:39,849 --> 00:16:43,270
Jackie, I just want this out there, same
as you do, OK?
272
00:16:52,610 --> 00:16:54,390
Hi, Nick. Sue Acres.
273
00:16:54,590 --> 00:16:55,930
I hope I'm not disturbing you.
274
00:16:56,430 --> 00:16:59,270
Deputy Assistant Commissioner, this is
quite... Call me Sue, please.
275
00:16:59,590 --> 00:17:00,990
Quite the surprise, Sue.
276
00:17:01,790 --> 00:17:05,210
I was hoping you might have a moment to
make me a cup of tea.
277
00:17:07,050 --> 00:17:09,030
Of course I do, yeah, of course. Come
in. Sorry.
278
00:17:09,690 --> 00:17:10,690
Through here. Thanks.
279
00:17:16,270 --> 00:17:17,369
You're going to my house.
280
00:17:18,310 --> 00:17:23,230
Not a short distance. On a Saturday,
so... Whatever this is can't be good.
281
00:17:23,810 --> 00:17:27,650
I mean, I have to assume... Can't be
good at all.
282
00:17:29,070 --> 00:17:30,070
Maybe take a seat.
283
00:17:30,950 --> 00:17:31,950
Oh, God.
284
00:17:33,550 --> 00:17:35,110
Nick, I'm afraid that...
285
00:17:35,340 --> 00:17:38,740
Part of the story you published about
Millie Dowler is inaccurate.
286
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:41,680
Inaccurate how?
287
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:46,980
It looks likely that the News of the
World did not delete voice messages from
288
00:17:46,980 --> 00:17:47,980
Millie Dowler's phone.
289
00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:50,240
It's probable it was the phone company.
290
00:17:51,180 --> 00:17:53,360
That's not... I have two separate
sources.
291
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,800
The networks used automatically deleted
messages after 72 hours.
292
00:17:58,340 --> 00:18:01,160
That's how we presume they were wiped.
293
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,100
You're using words like presume,
probable, likely.
294
00:18:04,540 --> 00:18:08,900
And we believe those deletions happened
prior to Glenn Mulcair being instructed
295
00:18:08,900 --> 00:18:10,080
to get inside her phone.
296
00:18:11,420 --> 00:18:12,540
Before Mulcair?
297
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,580
Nick, I came here in person to
acknowledge all you've done.
298
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,160
Without you, weeting is impossible.
299
00:18:22,780 --> 00:18:27,320
Without you... You can't know for
certain who deleted what. I'm sorry.
300
00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,540
We'll be releasing a statement to
correct the record.
301
00:18:32,490 --> 00:18:36,410
The article said messages were deleted
by journalists in the first few days
302
00:18:36,410 --> 00:18:37,710
after Millie's disappearance.
303
00:18:37,930 --> 00:18:39,130
That's the only inaccuracy.
304
00:18:39,790 --> 00:18:40,970
It's a large one.
305
00:18:41,210 --> 00:18:45,770
I have a good source which tells me
Surrey Police turned off the automatic
306
00:18:45,770 --> 00:18:50,270
deletion system on the fourth day and
some voicemail appear to have been
307
00:18:50,270 --> 00:18:52,270
after. Are they sure?
308
00:18:53,350 --> 00:18:54,750
No. Sure?
309
00:18:56,490 --> 00:18:57,810
They were inside the phone.
310
00:18:58,050 --> 00:19:00,980
Yes. They may have subsequently deleted
messages.
311
00:19:01,300 --> 00:19:02,300
My source told me they did.
312
00:19:02,420 --> 00:19:03,420
I believe my source.
313
00:19:03,700 --> 00:19:05,600
Then there is too much for them to lose
in court.
314
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:09,080
Right.
315
00:19:09,220 --> 00:19:11,720
Well, let me issue a retraction and an
apology.
316
00:19:12,120 --> 00:19:16,200
We made a mistake. We may not have. We
made a mistake, Lakeman. There we are.
317
00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:21,520
Ten lashes for you, ten lashes for me.
Two Acres agrees with most of our story.
318
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:22,600
They did hack the phone.
319
00:19:22,940 --> 00:19:24,780
Surrey Police did know about it, surely.
320
00:19:25,020 --> 00:19:26,020
I have two priorities.
321
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,600
That they don't use this to try and
obfuscate the crime they have committed.
322
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:33,820
A dead girl's phone was hacked.
323
00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:37,160
And my other priority is you.
324
00:19:37,620 --> 00:19:39,700
What was that Carl Bernstein quote?
325
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:43,700
All great reporting is the same thing.
326
00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,220
Best obtainable version of the truth.
327
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,640
I'm going to be absolutely monstered.
328
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:54,360
It serves them very well to try and
destroy your reputation. I don't want to
329
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:55,360
apologize.
330
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:56,600
Then don't.
331
00:19:57,610 --> 00:19:59,590
The paper has to, you don't.
332
00:19:59,870 --> 00:20:04,410
Stand up, put on some iron underwear and
fight.
333
00:20:10,210 --> 00:20:12,270
The monstering was high energy.
334
00:20:12,650 --> 00:20:13,429
Fuck you.
335
00:20:13,430 --> 00:20:17,010
Doubt turned into certainty that we had
got it wrong. Fuck you.
336
00:20:17,350 --> 00:20:20,650
Richard Caseby, managing editor of The
Sun, told the House of Lords committee
337
00:20:20,650 --> 00:20:24,550
that Alan Rusperger had sexed up his
investigation into phone hacking. Fuck
338
00:20:25,210 --> 00:20:28,850
Rod Little in the Sunday Times said
baldly the Guardian had made it up. It's
339
00:20:28,850 --> 00:20:29,850
shame on you.
340
00:20:30,870 --> 00:20:37,830
But beneath all... Beneath all that,
exaggeration and hostility was
341
00:20:37,830 --> 00:20:43,610
the fact that I had stated as a fact
something which now appeared to be
342
00:20:46,610 --> 00:20:50,130
I had damaged myself and I'd exposed the
Guardian.
343
00:20:52,170 --> 00:20:53,430
How are you enjoying it?
344
00:20:53,900 --> 00:20:55,040
Yeah, it's quite a thing.
345
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:56,480
They're outside your house.
346
00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,880
Whatever fuel they have, they're
readying to throw on the fire.
347
00:21:00,420 --> 00:21:01,760
So why are you so calm?
348
00:21:02,620 --> 00:21:07,180
Oh, I'm an optimist slash pessimist. I
presume I'm capable of great things, and
349
00:21:07,180 --> 00:21:08,620
yet I assume the worst about that.
350
00:21:09,420 --> 00:21:10,860
You always thought you'd be found out.
351
00:21:11,180 --> 00:21:12,260
Well, my mother said it would be.
352
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:14,760
Maybe I should be an optimist slash
pessimist.
353
00:21:15,140 --> 00:21:18,120
I wouldn't recommend it. Those are
horrible things to your guts.
354
00:21:20,140 --> 00:21:21,460
Are you really going to New York?
355
00:21:22,830 --> 00:21:24,150
The police haven't charged me.
356
00:21:24,730 --> 00:21:25,730
Free to go.
357
00:21:25,950 --> 00:21:27,830
Well, you could just stay here.
358
00:21:28,030 --> 00:21:29,890
You'd be up to this stale toast in no
time.
359
00:21:31,250 --> 00:21:34,610
The Evening Standard tried to do a story
about me sleeping with my source.
360
00:21:35,490 --> 00:21:38,030
A few weeks later they rang and said I
was sleeping with an MP.
361
00:21:38,430 --> 00:21:39,389
Wrong Amelia.
362
00:21:39,390 --> 00:21:40,610
And she's married to him.
363
00:21:41,030 --> 00:21:43,650
I just... I can't.
364
00:21:45,330 --> 00:21:46,870
I don't want to be the story.
365
00:21:49,010 --> 00:21:50,010
No.
366
00:21:50,830 --> 00:21:52,190
No, I'm not sure I do either.
367
00:21:53,629 --> 00:21:58,070
Luckily, they had a booking free for me
on Newsnight tonight, and Jeremy
368
00:21:58,070 --> 00:22:01,470
Paxman's a notoriously kind interviewer.
You're going on Newsnight?
369
00:22:01,670 --> 00:22:03,030
Yeah, against whoever.
370
00:22:04,030 --> 00:22:05,970
News international thing will do me most
damage.
371
00:22:07,010 --> 00:22:10,330
But steel underpants filled with stale
toast would be fine.
372
00:22:15,670 --> 00:22:21,370
If I don't come back, I mean, I want to
say something.
373
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:29,200
When this is all done, and they tell the
story of it, you know, when you look
374
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:33,440
back or write about it, don't paint me
as your protege.
375
00:22:34,300 --> 00:22:37,300
I mean, I've been at this a long time.
376
00:22:38,180 --> 00:22:41,020
I worked Jingle across multiple cases
for years.
377
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:46,240
I mean, it was your story, and Millie
would have never happened without you.
378
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:48,580
But it wouldn't have happened without me
either.
379
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,120
You don't need to say anything. Don't
let them whitewash all the other people
380
00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:53,630
out. Don't need to say any of this.
381
00:22:54,630 --> 00:22:55,630
I actually do.
382
00:22:57,530 --> 00:22:58,550
You have my word.
383
00:23:03,030 --> 00:23:04,030
Okay.
384
00:23:08,070 --> 00:23:09,250
Email me when you get there.
385
00:23:09,450 --> 00:23:11,370
If Taxman hasn't killed you first.
386
00:23:11,610 --> 00:23:12,610
Then email my corpse.
387
00:23:14,130 --> 00:23:15,130
Good luck, Nick.
388
00:23:31,690 --> 00:23:35,430
Tonight, who knew what and when in the
phone hacking scandal?
389
00:23:35,670 --> 00:23:37,750
Could James Murdoch really have been
unaware?
390
00:23:38,230 --> 00:23:42,090
Why did the Guardian claim the news of
the world deleted voice messages when
391
00:23:42,090 --> 00:23:43,090
they had no evidence?
392
00:23:43,190 --> 00:23:46,970
It was the Guardian newspaper's claim,
stated as fact, that they'd been erased
393
00:23:46,970 --> 00:23:50,510
by the news of the world, which
triggered the shutdown of what was once
394
00:23:50,510 --> 00:23:52,650
biggest selling paper in the English
-speaking world.
395
00:23:53,130 --> 00:23:57,430
I think, David, let's cut to the chase.
What you claim to be a fact wasn't a
396
00:23:57,430 --> 00:23:58,430
fact, was it?
397
00:23:59,690 --> 00:24:01,130
The story we published.
398
00:24:01,470 --> 00:24:06,090
in July, was squarely based on the
evidence available, correct in saying
399
00:24:06,090 --> 00:24:10,550
her voicemail was deleted. And it
remains the case that News International
400
00:24:10,550 --> 00:24:13,910
not denying that News of the World
journalists may have been responsible
401
00:24:13,910 --> 00:24:14,749
those deletions.
402
00:24:14,750 --> 00:24:16,670
Well, let's look at the front page here.
403
00:24:17,370 --> 00:24:21,930
News of the World hacked Millie Dowler's
phone during police hunt. Then the
404
00:24:21,930 --> 00:24:25,510
paper deleted missing schoolgirls'
voicemails, giving family false hope.
405
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,980
You say in the copy the messages were
deleted by journalists in the first few
406
00:24:29,980 --> 00:24:31,180
days after Millie's disappearance.
407
00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:36,700
Everybody who was involved in that story
accepted it was true. It's a very
408
00:24:36,700 --> 00:24:41,060
interesting thing that when that story
was done... No, no, no. Well, you're not
409
00:24:41,060 --> 00:24:43,180
allowing me to answer. Well, no, I'm
not, because you're not answering.
410
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,180
Well, you're not asking the right
questions. Oh, I'm sorry.
411
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:53,760
Everybody involved in that story
accepted that... That story was true and
412
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:59,540
continued to accept until four months
later, new evidence, which was not
413
00:24:59,540 --> 00:25:05,420
available to everybody's surprise,
showed that one element of that story is
414
00:25:05,420 --> 00:25:08,360
in doubt. It has not been proved to be
untrue. So you accept it wasn't true.
415
00:25:08,860 --> 00:25:11,380
George Stenson was a featured editor of
the News of the World. What do you say?
416
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,780
Well, the key point to this as well is
that this wasn't any old story. This was
417
00:25:15,780 --> 00:25:19,560
a story that was the most important
story in the Guardian's history. It was
418
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,720
vital that every single element of it
should be right. And Nick Davis repeated
419
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,840
that allegation 34 times.
420
00:25:26,120 --> 00:25:30,660
Let's get things in proportion here.
Your newspaper had hacked a murdered
421
00:25:30,660 --> 00:25:34,180
telephone. What we did was indefensible,
not just... to Millie, but to all the
422
00:25:34,180 --> 00:25:38,240
victims of hacking. I'm not here to
justify that in any way. What I am here
423
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,980
do, though, is to attack the shoddy
journalism of The Guardian and the
424
00:25:41,980 --> 00:25:45,740
journalism of Nick. This is a classic
example of the way tabloid newspapers
425
00:25:45,740 --> 00:25:49,600
work. You're in a heap of trouble
because for years, you personally have
426
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,580
Murdoch's money and ruined people's
lives, invaded people's privacy, and
427
00:25:53,580 --> 00:25:56,580
in criminal activity. You've hired
private investigators in the past,
428
00:25:56,580 --> 00:25:59,360
you? Private investigators who have
broken the law, haven't you, Jules? I'm
429
00:25:59,360 --> 00:26:03,080
here to justify. Haven't you, Jules? You
accuse me of shoddy journalism when
430
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,520
your name is all over the records of
Steve Whittemore, private investigator
431
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,300
was convicted of using illegal means.
Your name's there. Information about
432
00:26:10,300 --> 00:26:14,160
Jeremy Thixton, about Anne Robinson,
about Anna Trudeau.
433
00:26:14,460 --> 00:26:17,300
There are public interest factors. You
know what, Jules? Just stop. Take a leaf
434
00:26:17,300 --> 00:26:20,440
out of Rupert Murdoch's book and get a
bit humble. Or else just go quiet.
435
00:26:20,660 --> 00:26:23,640
People don't believe you anymore. Right.
We're not going to be bullied by people
436
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,080
like you anymore. We've had enough of
you.
437
00:26:25,900 --> 00:26:30,960
Two years after this, Jules Stenson pled
guilty to conspiracy to hack phones,
438
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,260
but... Well, I wish I knew that at this
moment.
439
00:27:13,930 --> 00:27:15,890
Detective Chief Superintendent Dave
Cook.
440
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:47,760
Hello?
441
00:27:48,020 --> 00:27:49,340
Hi, Jackie. Is this Dave?
442
00:27:50,340 --> 00:27:51,340
David.
443
00:27:51,740 --> 00:27:52,740
What's this number?
444
00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:57,740
Listen, Jackie, I, um... I need you to
pick up my kids.
445
00:27:58,900 --> 00:28:00,160
Where are you calling from?
446
00:28:01,260 --> 00:28:06,680
It's, um... It's actually a police
station number, Jackie. I'm being
447
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:08,680
What?
448
00:28:09,300 --> 00:28:10,340
On what charge?
449
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:13,940
It's a misconduct.
450
00:28:14,620 --> 00:28:15,620
Data protection.
451
00:28:20,970 --> 00:28:22,070
They raided the house.
452
00:28:22,670 --> 00:28:23,850
Well, did they find anything?
453
00:28:24,270 --> 00:28:25,270
Some more files.
454
00:28:26,250 --> 00:28:27,250
What files?
455
00:28:27,570 --> 00:28:29,810
Why did you have files at home?
456
00:28:31,010 --> 00:28:32,010
I don't know.
457
00:28:33,330 --> 00:28:34,570
What the fuck are they doing?
458
00:28:36,750 --> 00:28:37,870
I don't know, Jack.
459
00:28:40,450 --> 00:28:41,450
I don't know.
460
00:28:42,070 --> 00:28:43,069
What do we do?
461
00:28:43,070 --> 00:28:44,070
How can we help them?
462
00:28:44,090 --> 00:28:46,670
I'm not sure we can help until we know
what they have.
463
00:28:47,190 --> 00:28:48,470
We have to do something.
464
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,040
We both know he was passing information
to both of us. And they've arrested
465
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:54,040
Amelia Sobs.
466
00:28:55,340 --> 00:28:56,179
Sit tight.
467
00:28:56,180 --> 00:28:57,180
We'll find an answer.
468
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:58,320
Okay. Bye.
469
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,000
I don't know what you think you are,
sir. Would you like a cup of tea, sir?
470
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:07,680
I would like to leave.
471
00:29:08,940 --> 00:29:10,680
I'm supposed to be given evidence
tomorrow.
472
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:12,820
I'm a participant in Leviton.
473
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:17,660
But I'm not supposed to. You already
know that.
474
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,040
This conversation is being recorded,
so... Yes.
475
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,260
I understand that you've refused legal
representation.
476
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,440
Yes. And I do need to check that you do
fully understand your rights.
477
00:29:31,020 --> 00:29:35,720
I'm 40 years in the police force, son.
Yes, I understand my rights.
478
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,920
Good. All right, let's start from the
beginning then, shall we?
479
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,720
Tell me about your relationship with the
journalist Mike Sullivan.
480
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:46,040
No comment.
481
00:29:46,180 --> 00:29:48,140
So you deny passing information to
journalists?
482
00:29:48,700 --> 00:29:52,100
And, as you know, police officers
working for Operation Elveden. Operation
483
00:29:52,100 --> 00:29:56,200
Elveden is about bribery. I have never
accepted money from a journalist in my
484
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,160
life. It's an operation looking into the
corrupt relations between police and
485
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:00,160
the press.
486
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:07,220
News International sent an email. News
International sent you an email. Have
487
00:30:07,220 --> 00:30:10,720
any idea how ridiculous that sounds? Do
you deny you were in regular contact
488
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:12,880
with the journalist Mike Sullivan?
489
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,140
Mike Sullivan and I worked together.
490
00:30:20,500 --> 00:30:26,360
It was John Yates who introduced us. He
had access to my investigation in return
491
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:31,280
for writing helpful articles in the
newspaper. I have done nothing that a
492
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,880
million police officers before me
haven't done. It is standard police
493
00:30:36,420 --> 00:30:37,560
You did nothing wrong.
494
00:30:38,500 --> 00:30:39,500
Nothing.
495
00:30:42,500 --> 00:30:46,360
Forty years in the police service and
you didn't know you broke the law.
496
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:50,040
Shame on you.
497
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:31,760
They're trying to get it all.
498
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:33,820
They're waiting for any mistake.
499
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,180
Then let's try not to make any mistakes.
500
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:37,600
Come inside.
501
00:31:48,940 --> 00:31:51,260
Then she found a spare duvet from
somewhere.
502
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:53,980
I don't need to stay.
503
00:31:54,380 --> 00:31:55,380
You should.
504
00:31:55,580 --> 00:31:56,620
I'd like you to.
505
00:31:58,860 --> 00:32:00,780
Having a sleepover with the editor of
The Guardian?
506
00:32:01,140 --> 00:32:02,140
Not editor.
507
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:03,440
Friend.
508
00:32:04,860 --> 00:32:08,540
This, um... This may not be entirely
comfortable.
509
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:10,200
I should be helping.
510
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:12,040
Yes, you should.
511
00:32:14,140 --> 00:32:18,780
A journalist running away to America.
Two police officers under arrest.
512
00:32:18,980 --> 00:32:23,160
You're so paranoid. You're having this
house periodically debugged and it's...
513
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:24,500
It's all your fault.
514
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:25,720
Yeah.
515
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:29,360
You remember when we first met?
516
00:32:31,420 --> 00:32:33,960
I felt like a child who forgot his
pencil.
517
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,960
You were so thrusting, and, well, I
wasn't.
518
00:32:39,780 --> 00:32:40,800
You were ambitious.
519
00:32:41,500 --> 00:32:42,500
Hugely.
520
00:32:43,700 --> 00:32:45,800
Compensating for who knows what.
521
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,040
And I thought, well, if everyone at the
Guardian's like him, I'm done for.
522
00:32:51,460 --> 00:32:56,880
Thankfully, they weren't. Thankfully, as
it turns out, I had something to offer
523
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:57,880
you.
524
00:32:58,860 --> 00:33:00,340
As you had something to offer me.
525
00:33:03,180 --> 00:33:10,180
Nick, don't mistake the fact you were
first through the door with the
526
00:33:10,180 --> 00:33:12,880
fact that everyone else went through the
same door willingly.
527
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,280
The sacrifices weren't for you. They
were for your cause.
528
00:33:18,140 --> 00:33:19,640
You're part of a team, Nick.
529
00:33:20,620 --> 00:33:23,040
The funny thing is, you always have
been.
530
00:33:24,700 --> 00:33:26,420
I think he's going to get away with it.
531
00:33:29,610 --> 00:33:31,130
No, Doc, I think he's going to get away
with it.
532
00:33:31,530 --> 00:33:32,530
Perhaps.
533
00:33:34,330 --> 00:33:36,630
Perhaps that's what abusers do.
534
00:33:37,310 --> 00:33:38,950
Get away with things.
535
00:33:41,130 --> 00:33:42,350
Or perhaps not.
536
00:33:43,210 --> 00:33:49,850
Not really. Maybe... Maybe... Deep down
537
00:33:49,850 --> 00:33:55,510
inside them, there's just... Damage.
538
00:33:57,090 --> 00:33:58,810
Yes, but sometimes...
539
00:33:59,500 --> 00:34:02,260
Yes, but sometimes the damage they
cause, sometimes.
540
00:34:03,900 --> 00:34:06,180
But you're not trying to excuse her,
him.
541
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:10,400
No, Nick.
542
00:34:12,659 --> 00:34:15,560
I'm not trying to excuse your mother or
him.
543
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:24,639
I'm saying all we can do is fight the
544
00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:25,800
best we can.
545
00:34:27,340 --> 00:34:29,659
I hope we prove to be a valiant
opponent.
546
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:37,980
And personally speaking, I'm so proud to
have been a part of
547
00:34:37,980 --> 00:34:40,360
this great valiant act.
548
00:34:41,460 --> 00:34:47,980
Whatever happens, know that.
549
00:35:09,260 --> 00:35:10,260
You're welcome.
550
00:36:09,420 --> 00:36:10,460
Don't worry, you're before me.
551
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:14,200
I'm just... insanely horrifically early.
552
00:36:16,180 --> 00:36:17,900
It's Jackie, isn't it? Yes.
553
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:19,920
I read your statement.
554
00:36:20,780 --> 00:36:21,780
Strong stuff.
555
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:24,740
Harrowing. Punchy. Nick, by the way.
556
00:36:25,060 --> 00:36:28,220
I know. Thank you. Coming from you,
that's... Thank you.
557
00:36:34,260 --> 00:36:35,260
May I...
558
00:36:38,049 --> 00:36:39,610
I mean, I hope it's okay to ask.
559
00:36:40,410 --> 00:36:41,410
How's David?
560
00:36:41,930 --> 00:36:46,770
Oh, it's been a week since we spoke, but
he's back in his house at least.
561
00:36:49,330 --> 00:36:50,510
He won't take my calls.
562
00:36:50,750 --> 00:36:51,750
He will when he's ready.
563
00:36:52,610 --> 00:36:54,230
It won't be you. It'll be him.
564
00:36:55,270 --> 00:36:56,290
It's generally him.
565
00:36:59,350 --> 00:37:01,410
He helped, by the way. I'm not sure
whether you're aware.
566
00:37:02,830 --> 00:37:04,650
But he helped all of us. He was key.
567
00:37:06,510 --> 00:37:08,470
We wouldn't be here without his help.
568
00:37:14,030 --> 00:37:16,050
Sorry. You do it.
569
00:37:16,550 --> 00:37:18,150
Make your prep, run your lines.
570
00:37:23,610 --> 00:37:24,610
Oh, God.
571
00:37:24,650 --> 00:37:28,010
I'm usually good with details, but for
some reason today my mind keeps going
572
00:37:28,010 --> 00:37:29,010
blank.
573
00:37:32,150 --> 00:37:34,390
I didn't sleep much.
574
00:37:39,020 --> 00:37:40,540
I didn't sleep much last night.
575
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:42,000
Not a wink.
576
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,060
Then I don't sleep. I'm not someone who
sleeps.
577
00:37:44,500 --> 00:37:45,500
You've always been like that.
578
00:37:45,580 --> 00:37:46,640
Since I was a boy, yeah.
579
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,020
Dave did tell you I wasn't a simple guy
to understand, right?
580
00:37:54,860 --> 00:37:57,340
I've had days recently where I can't
remember my own name.
581
00:37:59,460 --> 00:38:02,860
I've been in rooms full of people and
forgotten why I'm even there. I suffer.
582
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:05,580
I have done for years with panic
attacks.
583
00:38:07,140 --> 00:38:09,930
Every time I sat down to write this,
statement item.
584
00:38:12,590 --> 00:38:17,050
But this morning I woke up and I felt
clear, clearer than I have done in
585
00:38:17,510 --> 00:38:18,348
That's good.
586
00:38:18,350 --> 00:38:19,350
Yes.
587
00:38:19,750 --> 00:38:26,430
Just remember, in the storm of all of
this, in all their mea culpa
588
00:38:26,430 --> 00:38:33,390
of news of the world, they decided that
in
589
00:38:33,390 --> 00:38:35,690
the middle of this inquiry,
590
00:38:37,390 --> 00:38:39,350
To launch the sun on Sunday.
591
00:38:51,370 --> 00:38:52,250
That thing
592
00:38:52,250 --> 00:38:59,230
you were doing with the
593
00:38:59,230 --> 00:39:00,169
ball?
594
00:39:00,170 --> 00:39:01,170
I don't mind.
595
00:39:01,470 --> 00:39:03,870
It'll help to calm you. Oh, God, I'm
driving you insane.
596
00:39:04,150 --> 00:39:06,030
Oh, I've been tested by bigger things.
Please.
597
00:39:07,210 --> 00:39:08,350
Do what you need to do.
598
00:39:12,190 --> 00:39:13,190
Yeah.
599
00:39:24,450 --> 00:39:26,430
I'll be honest, I'm scared of this
inquiry.
600
00:39:28,110 --> 00:39:31,530
I'm scared because I think you'll take
the wrong recommendations.
601
00:39:33,330 --> 00:39:36,270
And because you'll destroy something.
602
00:39:36,910 --> 00:39:39,690
which is precious, without rebuilding
something better.
603
00:39:40,930 --> 00:39:45,970
I don't want destroyed the notion of the
unofficial source.
604
00:39:46,750 --> 00:39:53,170
Sue Akers has arrested 37, 38 people in
the four inquiries she's been running.
605
00:39:53,270 --> 00:39:59,870
There have been a couple of arrests of
police officers in cases where I know
606
00:39:59,870 --> 00:40:01,110
quite a lot about the circumstances.
607
00:40:01,830 --> 00:40:04,790
What's happened there is those officers
have been told
608
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,980
they will be charged with the common law
offence of misconduct in a public
609
00:40:09,980 --> 00:40:10,980
office.
610
00:40:11,140 --> 00:40:15,580
Despite, to the best of my knowledge,
there being no allegation of any kind of
611
00:40:15,580 --> 00:40:21,660
bribe or inducement, what those officers
are being told is you will be charged
612
00:40:21,660 --> 00:40:28,240
and you can expect to get a prison term
of up to 18 months because you've spoken
613
00:40:28,240 --> 00:40:30,340
to a reporter without permission.
614
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:32,560
Now, the...
615
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,280
Two cases alive, we don't know how
they'll turn out. It may well be that
616
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,240
Crown Prosecution Service will say, hang
on a moment, this doesn't apply.
617
00:40:41,860 --> 00:40:46,440
But I think it's worrying, and this is
in the wake of the phone hacking.
618
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:53,940
I worry that it might be a completely
unjustifiable and unnecessary backlash
619
00:40:53,940 --> 00:40:58,340
the allegation of collusion between News
International and the Met.
620
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,560
And the ultimate effect here may be to
prevent...
621
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,220
unauthorized contact between journalists
and police.
622
00:41:07,460 --> 00:41:10,900
When, as a matter of fact, without this
unauthorized contact, the Metropolitan
623
00:41:10,900 --> 00:41:14,300
Police would have been allowed to carry
on misleading press public and
624
00:41:14,300 --> 00:41:15,480
Parliament about this whole scandal.
625
00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:21,600
I'm also scared that this inquiry might
misstep in a different direction,
626
00:41:21,820 --> 00:41:27,700
might soften itself as its attack from
outside sources.
627
00:41:28,380 --> 00:41:31,500
I have been under attack in one form or
another ever since I first attempted to
628
00:41:31,500 --> 00:41:38,480
reveal the practice of hacking. I
represent here today a team of people,
629
00:41:38,540 --> 00:41:40,440
all of whom have been under similar
attacks.
630
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:45,600
I've had to face extraordinary things to
be part of this fight.
631
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:52,100
They've done so because what you're
doing here today is precious.
632
00:41:54,500 --> 00:42:00,310
News, I think, I think the best
definition of it, news is what someone
633
00:42:00,310 --> 00:42:01,870
doesn't want you to know.
634
00:42:03,670 --> 00:42:10,470
The most difficult, skillful,
interesting, important stuff that
635
00:42:10,470 --> 00:42:16,950
about finding human sources and
motivating them to help reveal that
636
00:42:16,950 --> 00:42:18,890
tell you someone at the front line of
that.
637
00:42:20,450 --> 00:42:24,450
News is also often what someone is
reluctant to tell.
638
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:30,920
So it's hard to motivate a human source
to reveal their truth.
639
00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:35,720
They'll say, look, if I talk to you and
they realize I've done this, then I'll
640
00:42:35,720 --> 00:42:37,920
lose my job or my career.
641
00:42:39,100 --> 00:42:44,240
Or I'll be beaten up. I'll be arrested
or embarrassed or ashamed. I will hurt
642
00:42:44,240 --> 00:42:46,280
people who love me. It's a very
sensitive moment.
643
00:42:47,700 --> 00:42:49,820
You have to make those people safe.
644
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,100
You have to make those people realize
645
00:42:55,950 --> 00:42:57,590
Their truth is worth the risk.
646
00:43:00,430 --> 00:43:05,130
What these hackers did was about cutting
out that human connection.
647
00:43:08,730 --> 00:43:12,270
These so -called journalists didn't find
the truth. They didn't persuade people
648
00:43:12,270 --> 00:43:13,790
to come with them. They just stole.
649
00:43:15,550 --> 00:43:16,550
They took.
650
00:43:18,930 --> 00:43:21,650
And humanity was lost in that moment.
651
00:43:23,660 --> 00:43:27,740
Not only in the privacy that was
invaded, but also in the stories told
652
00:43:28,020 --> 00:43:32,520
Our papers became dishrags of distorted
content.
653
00:43:35,060 --> 00:43:41,620
A set of rogue journalists working for a
rogue corporation undermined the very
654
00:43:41,620 --> 00:43:42,900
tenets of journalism.
655
00:43:45,720 --> 00:43:48,080
The very tenets of truth -telling.
656
00:43:53,870 --> 00:43:57,530
If this inquiry succeeds, we may be able
to rebuild our newspapers.
657
00:43:57,850 --> 00:44:01,030
We may be able to make them what they
should be.
658
00:44:05,570 --> 00:44:10,610
Fail, and News International will have
trapped us all in their shadow.
659
00:44:13,930 --> 00:44:15,970
And I'm scared that we will never get
out.
53146
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