All language subtitles for public.speaking.2010.

The media requires there be
a new genius every season.

You would be very lucky if,
in your whole life,

you saw the work
of one genius.

But very few people
are great young,

great, great, great,
great all along,

but Picasso was.

It was widely reported
that this man owned

what was consistently
referred to in the press,

I'm not sure of the figure,
but a $120 million Picasso.

And he was showing it
to some friends.

And he hit it with his elbow
and tore a hole in it.

And I was very amused by this,
for numerous reasons.

One is that I kept asking
people, "Which Picasso is this?"

And people kept saying,
"A $120 million Picasso."

And I kept saying,
"But which Picasso?

"I don't know which one
is the 120 million one."

You know.
And also, that changes.

You know,
the price changes,

but the Picasso
remains the same.

And then-- But really,

I was interested in
this story and in this man,

because this man can't see.

And so I thought there is no
more suitable and potent image,

symbol, for our time

than the image
of the blind art collector.

I think that sums it up.
I mean, you could--

If you were gonna write
just a history of the era,

you should call it The Blind Art
Collector and Other Stories.

It's a plot.
It is a plot. How you been?

Hi. How are you?
Okay.

We asked for your booth,

but we're not sure if
we're in the right one.

Is this your booth?

The audience is going to come in

and it's going to be hard
to get through that lobby.

7:35. We're supposed
to start at 7:30, right?

If I was in the audience
I'd be saying--

Happy about it?
Really optimistic?

Did I strike you
as unhappy?

Because this is me
at my most buoyant.

I was going to say,
"With all due respect."

This is me
at my most buoyant.

Writers have
to know things.

You know, they have to know
things about life.

You know,
musicians don't.

That's why there's
musical prodigies.

You know,
there was Mozart.

There's no equivalent
to Mozart in writing.

Because even if you were
that innately talented,

you would still
have to know something

to write it down,
you know.

And so in fields in which
you have to know something,

there are no child prodigies.

Hence, the child actor,

a field where you actually
are not well served

by knowing anything.

You may or may not learn
more things about writing.

Some people don't.
Some people are fully formed

with their first book.

With Philip Roth,
you see that.

You know, they have that voice
right away.

Some people specialize
in youthful things in writing.

And then, of course,
they get worse.

If you're gonna specialize
in youth, you know,

you're gonna get worse.

I like doing this

because it's what I've always
wanted my entire life.

People asking me
my opinion.

And also in this situation,

people are not allowed
to interrupt.

So it's not
a conversation.

That's what
I like about it.

You seem to me
almost always right.

What do you mean "seem"?
And almost--

But also, ahem,
never fair.

That's why.

I'm always right
because I'm never fair.

I never thought about it,
but I have to concede

that I have way too frequently
for my own moral comfort

been asked
if I was an only child.

Which means obviously
people feel

I have the personality
of an only child.

Which I guess I do.

I actually wanted
to be a cellist

when I was a small child.

I loved Pablo Casals.
I had Pablo Casals records.

But I was
remarkably untalented.

And when I realized
I wasn't gonna be as good

as Pablo Casals,
which was, like,

in the first four minutes of
listening to the first record,

I realized I didn't
want to be a cellist.

I had excessive standards.

But I was the worst cellist
in my school orchestra.

I don't mean I wasn't
just marginally not as good

as Pablo Casals.
I mean that in a school--

A little grammar-school
orchestra with five cellos,

I was fifth cellist.

And it was not
an unfair assessment.

It was a fair assessment.

In my neighborhood,
and I think all girls--

You had to do certain
physical things,

you know, like climb trees,
things like that.

All those type of things
I was always very afraid of,

terrified of.

And I believe
that this is at the point

at which I, like, thought,
"If I say something funny,

"they won't notice I'm only on
the first branch of the tree,

"not the fiftieth branch
of the tree,

where I have, like,
no intention of going to."

Because even as a child,

it really struck me
as an idiotic exercise

to put yourself in danger
for no reason.

In other words,
all right, if--

Like, climbing a tree to me
makes sense

if behind you
are Nazis.

Okay? Right.
I would-- You know--

Being in the tree
is a smart thing to do

if on the ground
are the Nazis.

If on the ground
are the other kids

seeing how high
you can go up,

even at that age, it seemed
to me like, "Oh. No."

I was at least 9, if not older,
when I learned to tell time.

It was the central disaster
of my childhood.

My parents sent me to my aunt
and uncle's house

for my winter vacation

with the idea that since
my uncle was an engineer at IBM,

that he would be able
to teach me how to tell time.

I mean, I suppose
there was the idea

that this kid
was so challenged--

Not a word they used then,
--at learning how to tell time

that it required
the expertise

of an MIT graduate
who was an IBM engineer.

That's the level of person
they felt I needed

to teach me
how to tell time.

And it was just like
the continuation, really,

of my own experience at home,

which was that
everything was a clock.

Like, in other words,
you know--

Did they try to help that way?

Yes. "Here's an oatmeal cookie.

Now, see, if this raisin was 12
and this raisin was 3..."

And I would like...

Just eventually it
came to me,

although not fully,
because, even now,

by which I mean
my entire life,

I see that other people,
if you ask them what time it is,

they look at their watch
and they tell you.

This is something I've always
envied because I have to like--

Then I tell you. Okay?

It lacks Ă©lan,

my telling you
what time it is,

because you can
see me concentrating.

Like I have to--
It's like whatever--

It's the time-telling
equivalent

of moving your lips
while you read.

That's how I tell time.

Then at some certain
point in life, you know,

which I think was in the '70s,
they invented digital clocks,

you know, which I resisted
tremendously,

purely out of envy.

Like, "Oh, if they'd had this
when I was a child,

I would have learned
how to tell time."

And so since I didn't have it,
I don't like it.

You know,
the same reaction

that men of my father's
generation had,

like, during
the sexual revolution.

Like, "Oh, no, you don't.
We never got that.

You're not getting it."

I felt the exact same way
about digital clocks, you know.

I was a very, very bad
high school student. Terrible.

The worst you could be.

Let me put it to you
this way:

I was expelled
from my school.

So you can't be a worse
high school student than that.

Did you read...?

Constantly.

I mean,
that's one of the reasons

I got expelled
from high school.

Because I would
be always reading

behind my actual
textbooks.

And I was constantly punished
for reading as a child,

even as a young child.
Reading what?

Anything, instead of doing
my homework.

Like, my mother
would knock on my door,

"I know you're
reading in there."

You know. I had-- My desk
in my room when I was a child,

you know, had a drawer,
like in the middle,

and my books
would be on top,

and I would open the drawer
and put a real book,

by which I mean one I wanted to
read, as opposed to a math book.

And when my mother
came in the room,

I would, like,
close it like that.

And I want you-- This was not
The Story of O, you know.

This would be, you know,

just a novel, just something
that wasn't my schoolwork.

There are days,

this is one of them,

when you wonder

what your role is
in this country

and what your future is
in it.

How precisely you're going
to reconcile yourself

to your situation here

and how you are going
to communicate

to the vast, heedless,

unthinking, cruel
white majority

that you are here.

I mean, I remember

the first time I saw
James Baldwin, you know,

on The David Susskind Show
when I was kid,

I never heard
anyone talk like that.

You know, I always said,
"I'm the only Jew in America

"whose first exposure
to an intellectual,

it was a black guy."

You know? I mean,
I didn't know

was there such a thing
as Jewish intellectuals,

I did not grow up
among them.

So my idea of an intellectual
was James Baldwin.

I never heard anyone
talk like that in my life.

I was, like, completely
mesmerized by him.

I obviously love to talk,

so I never thought about
being good or bad at it.

I mean, talking, to me,
is like having a trick thumb.

Only when people started
remarking on it did I realize

that people thought of it
as anything special.

You know, I never really
thought-- I was never--

And that's partially because

I was never complimented on it
as a child.

I mean, in fact,
the opposite.

When I was a child
it was called talking back.

Okay?

You know, now it's called
public speaking.

You know,
but it's really the same.

So the thing that I used
to get punished for

at home and in school and get
bad marks in school for it

then, you know, at a certain
point in my life I got,

actually, I don't know, paid,
you know, and rewarded for it.

But it's the exact
same thing.

Do you think
there's a difference

between a female voice
and a male voice in literature?

Even on the phone
there's a difference

between a female
voice and a male voice.

I think
it's very important

that writers write
in a real voice.

In their own voice.

But only if they're
really good writers.

And I have noticed,

and surely even someone of your
tender years have noticed,

that too many people are
writing books, period. Okay?

There are too many books.
The books are terrible.

And this is because you have
been taught to have self-esteem.

And apparently, you have
so much self-esteem

that you think,
"You know what?

I shouldn't keep these
thoughts to myself."

I should share them
with the world."

When I first came
to New York,

I fell in with a group
of incredible talkers.

You know, I mean,
incredible talkers.

And I thought my whole life
would be like that.

There are certain things that
happen to you when you're young,

the thing you always would
imagine would happen,

and then you find out
it was like a fluke.

You know, of course
it disappeared.

But I fell in right away

with this bunch
of incredible talkers.

They were all guys.
They were all gay.

They were much older than me,

by which I mean a minimum
of 10 years.

And I was 18 when
I came to New York.

And it was a kind of--

I mean, it wasn't really
competitive, you know,

but it was nasty, let me tell
you. That's the other thing.

Once I met these guys,
when I was, like,

literally, like, off the bus
from Port Authority,

these are the first people
I meet.

After that I suppose
nothing could faze me.

What I did when I first came
to New York, I drove a cab.

I did things like that,
you know,

but just exactly enough
to pay the rent,

and then I stopped working.

As soon as I had
that $121 for the month

I wouldn't drive
the cab anymore, you know,

because I wanted to hang out.

You know,
I wanted to do nothing.

It's very important,
I think,

for getting ideas
or thinking of new things

that comes from, like, hanging
around with other people.

You know, talking.
You know, that life.

You know, sitting in bars
smoking cigarettes.

You know, I mean,
that's the history of art.

New York was not better
because there was more crime.

It was better
because it was cheaper.

And I mean
relatively cheaper.

When a place
is too expensive,

only people with lots of money
can live there.

That's the problem.
Okay?

You can like people with lots
of money for certain reasons,

hate them for certain reasons,
but you cannot say

that an entire city with lots of
money is fascinating. It is not.

All these things,
in my opinion, seem to occur

when they decided to get
the city out of bankruptcy

by making it into
a tourist attraction,

which everyone thinks was
the smartest thing ever done.

In other words,
in the '70s,

when the city was
going bankrupt,

three guys got together
and said, "What can we do?

"The city's going bankrupt.

"Well, no one here, you know,
can think of anything.

"We'll just have to bring
a lot of people here

"to come and look at it.

And, you know, that will be
the way that we cure it."

And it apparently did.
You know.

Ahem, it was an incredibly
horrible idea.

And even at the time
I thought it was.

I thought, "This is New York
City." You know.

"We don't need this kind
of, you know,

Sinclair Lewis
boosterism here."

You know. "You don't want
to come here? Don't.

Good, don't come here."

Ahem, it was a very bad thing,

because it made it seem like,
you know,

New York had no resources.

You know, by which
I mean human resources.

It's not like New York
was a boring place. No.

You cannot lure
these herds of hillbillies

into the middle of a city

and not have it affect
the city. It's not possible.

You know.
And sometimes-- And I'm like,

trying to, well, I would say,
walking behind them,

trying to get past them,
you know.

And I hear them say
they don't like something.

"Oh, yes, we went there,
you know."

"Oh, you mean that diner
that has the waiters who sing?"

"Yes."
"Did you like it?"

"No, they were singing
too loud."

And I sometimes
feel like saying,

"Really? You don't like it?

Tell us, because we built
it for you."

"So if you don't

"like the diner
with the waiters singing,

we're happy
to close it down."

Like, what would we do
with Times Square

if there's no tourists?

You know, a place
that we built for them.

I mean, it used to be
just a neighborhood.

Okay, it's a place
that we built for them.

I live near Times Square.

So I want to tell you
something.

Here's something we could
use in this neighborhood:

A butcher.

A shoe repair. A stationery
store. A bookstore.

You could fill it
with things New Yorkers need.

Times Square now,
in the last many years,

here's what it's like
in Times Square.

If you're a New Yorker

and you run into another
New Yorker in Times Square,

it's like running into someone
in a gay bar in the '70s.

You--

You instantly start making
excuses as to why you're there.

"I'm not really here..."

"I'm not really in--
I'm not really in Times Square.

"I'm on my way to some other--
I'm doing research."

The reason that people
used to move to cities--

One of the reasons, in fact,
that I moved to the city.

--is that if you grow up
in a small town,

it's incredibly oppressive.

You know,
it's very oppressive

to have people know
every single thing about you.

You know, the nosy neighbor
is not an urban figure.

You know,

the nosy neighbor
is a small-town figure.

And everybody knows
everything about everybody

and it's very suffocating.

And so that people used
to move to cities

so they could
do what they wanted.

Even if what they wanted to do
was just walk down the street

without someone calling up
and saying,

"I saw Joe
walking down the street."

But if you want to do
something, like--

Other than that,
you had to live in a city.

And now, people don't--
I mean--

Anonymity is the worst thing
that people can have, I think,

because there's such
a general desire for fame.

You're a star, baby.
Let me see that star quality.

Within the last 25, 30 years,

fame itself became an extremely
valuable thing to people,

divorced from
anything else.

And that is basically
the fault of Andy Warhol.

I mean,
one of the things Andy did

was he made fame
more famous.

Because Andy kept, like, using
the word "fame" all the time.

It was a joke.

Let me assure you,
this was a joke.

You take these drag queens,
who are actually criminals,

because it was against the law
to wear a dress

if you're a man at the time.
And you say, this drag queen--

Of course they want to be
a movie star.

They want to be
an exact movie star.

In other words, you know,
Candy Darling, you know,

wants to be exactly, you know,
Marilyn Monroe. Okay?

This is a drag queen fantasy
at the time.

No one takes it seriously,
except Candy does.

And then Andy says,
"You're not just a movie star,

like Marilyn Monroe,
you're a superstar."

He makes it up.
It's a joke. It's a joke.

This is what
ruined the world.

This is what happens
when an inside joke

gets into the water supply.

I'm Fran Lebowitz. I started
writing for Interview,

I think, in 1970.

And the first time
that I met Andy at the Factory,

when I went to apply
for this position,

the door of
the elevator opened

and there was a metal door
behind it

that had a sign taped to it
saying,

"Knock loudly
and announce yourself."

Being 20,
and this being my day of humor,

I knocked on the door,
and someone said, "Who is it?"

I said, "Valerie Solanas,"
Andy opened the door.

When I was young,
in the late '70s early '80s,

my first real audience
was from Interview Magazine,

and at that time that audience
was 99.9, you know, homosexual.

Male homosexual.

And that audience
was very important to me.

This was part
of what formed my voice.

Everyone talks about
the effect that AIDS had

on the culture
in the sense--

I mean, people don't talk
about it anymore,

but when people
did talk about it,

they talked about
like what artists were lost.

But they never talked about
this audience that was lost.

You know, when people talk
about, like, you know,

"Why was New York City Ballet
so great?"

Well, I mean it was because
of Balanchine and Jerry Robbins

and people like that, but also,
that audience was so--

I can't even think
of the word. I mean,

"Suzanne Farrell went like this
instead of this."

That was it. She might as well
just kill herself.

There would be like a billion
people who knew exactly

every single thing,
you know.

There was such a high level

of connoisseurship
of everything,

that people like this
were interested in,

you know, of everything,
that made the culture better.

You can-- You know,
a very discerning audience.

A very-- You know--

An audience with a high level
of connoisseurship

is as important
to the culture as artists.

It's exactly as important.

Now we don't have
any kind of discernment.

When that audience died,

and that audience died
in 5 minutes.

Literally, people didn't
die faster in a war.

And it allowed,
of course, like,

the third, the second
third, fourth tier

to rise to the front.

Because, of course, the first
people who died of AIDS

were the people who,
I don't know how to put this,

got laid a lot.

Okay, now imagine
who didn't get AIDS, okay?

That's who was then lauded
as the great, you know, artist.

Okay?

You know, if the other people
that hadn't died had been alive,

if they all came back to life,
I would say to them,

"Guess who's a big star?

"Guess who has a show
on Broadway?

Guess who is, like,
a famous photographer?"

They would fall on the floor.
Are you kidding me?

Because everyone else died.

Last man standing, okay?
I mean, that had a--

The loss of that audience
had a terrible effect,

and a terrible effect
on me,

I mean, by which not
just a sad,

personal effect on me,

but a terrible
effect on me

because everything
has to be broader.

I mean, I don't do that,
you know,

but everyone
else did, you know.

Everything has to be more
blatant, more on the nose.

Broader, you know,
because obviously

they're not going to be pick up
little subtleties.

Things in the culture
that had nothing to do

with the New York City Ballet,

you know, it just got
dumbed down, dumbed down,

dumbed down,
all the way down.

One of the reasons we wanted
to come here

was to show the country
The Oscar Levant Show.

And--
Pretty degrading, isn't it?

No, it is not.

It's probably the most brilliant
wit ever on television.

You know, you must
understand about wit.

Wit's very infrequent.
You mention so-called wits

and they've said two or three
things in their whole lifetime.

Almost. It's true. Now humorous
is something else.

You know, that cracker-barrel,
"Aw, shucks,"

Charlie Weaver stuff, who gets
off-color every now and then,

that's-- He's really
very funny.

I don't dig my toe in.

I'm not a cracker-barrel
philosopher.

The humorist is just
a comedian that scratches.

Isn't that more or less
what happens?

No, a humorist is somebody
like you who has four writers

and then adlibs for the rest
of the-- No, that's--

It's hard being his friend,
I'll tell you that.

See what we have had
in the last like 30 years

is too much democracy
in the culture,

not enough democracy
in the society.

There's no reason to have
democracy in the culture. None.

Because the culture
should be made

by a natural aristocracy
of talent.

Okay? I mean--
By which I mean, like,

here it doesn't have to do with,
you know, what race you are

or what country you're from
or what religion you are.

It should have to do with
how good are you at this thing?

And that is
a natural aristocracy.

"No, your book is not as good as
anyone else's book," you know.

"No, your life story would
not make a good book.

Don't even try."

I had to introduce
Toni Morrison, or something,

and give her an award--
She has not received enough.

And since everyone was
gathered to see Toni

get her 8 millionth award,
I said, "Since you're--

"Now that I have you all here,
I just wanna say one thing.

"When Toni Morrison said, 'Write
the book you want to read,'

she did not mean everyone,
okay?"

When I read things
you've written,

there's something
in there that is--

I can distinguish by sound,
not by definition,

which is the difference
between wit and the comic,

or the humorous in writers.

What do you think
that difference is?

Niceness.

Niceness?

I mean, or, what people call,
like, you know, warmth.

Wit.

No, comedy.

Ah, oh, I see.
I see, I see.

Like, we have
a lot of comedians,

because people
like comedians.

People like comedians
because comedians

usually make fun
of someone

other than the person
they're talking to.

You know, or if they directly
make fun of that person,

it's in a very insulting,
vulgar way.

But in writing,
wit is something-- It's cold.

It has to be cold.
You know.

Wit is judgment.

Oscar Wilde-type coldness.

Yeah. People always say
"Oscar Wilde-type"

like there's a lot of other
people like Oscar Wilde.

There's only one.

It's true, it's true.

Yeah. I mean--
And it's also usually short.

Mm-hm.
You know.

It usually can't be dragged out
to the length of a feature film.

And also, it has
a lot of assumption to it,

which is not a thing
Americans like.

They don't want you
to assume, presume, or judge.

That's elite.

I don't remember
what your question was.

Yes, you do.

No, you've explained it
entirely correctly.

Good.

I adore you.

I'm now 47,
but I'm not kidding you,

you rescued me at 15
in Albany, New York,

when Metropolitan Life
came out.

I used to be 47.

Last year.

Just last month.
Yeah.

Oh, that one's done.

Yeah, this one
I got done in '93.

Well, then, keep that.
It's a younger signature.

Yeah. Yeah.
So very nice to see you again.

Nice to see you. Thank you.
Okay.

When my first book came out,
I was 27.

There were no people my age
who had books out.

That is a generational thing,
because people my age,

they didn't want
to be writers.

People my age wanted
to be musicians or filmmakers.

So all the people
I knew who wanted to be--

Who were artists.
That was the thing.

So I had, like,
no contemporaries, you know.

And it looked like
it was dying out.

That's why people
should stop saying,

"This is the end of that."
You don't know.

"This is the end of that.
This is it."

When my first book was
published, the publisher said,

"I don't know. This book isn't
gonna sell, because it's--

Not since the 1920s has a book
of comic essays sold."

And even though I was a kid,
I said, "So what?"

And really, I would
say that now. So what? You know?

Then here's what happens.
One comes out and sells,

there's a million of them.

Who was trying to buy
your book back then?

Everybody.
Everybody?

Everybody.
Who'd you meet with?

Everybody.
I met with everybody.

Everyone tried to buy the book.
I met with everybody.

I didn't sell
the book because I--

I didn't-- Didn't want them
to ruin my book,

which was a book of essays.

So I knew that it would
be ruined. I mean, it isn't--

You know, I mean--
And--

The more I said no, which was
taken, of course, as a tactic,

the higher the price went.

Until I actually had,
well, more than one meeting,

but one meeting I remember,

and I think it might have
been Warner Bros.,

because Warner Bros.
might have had, like,

a real office here
in the '70s, late '70s.

They did, they did.

And I remember sitting at,
like, a huge conference table,

where finally, someone who was
head of the New York office

said, "All right, well,
I suppose you want to direct."

That-- And I was so stunned
by that idea because...

That's when I realized that they
really didn't believe me.

I said, "No, I don't even want
you to make this into a movie.

"Not only do I not want
to direct this movie,

I don't want this
to be a movie."

And many movie stars
tried to buy it.

Women tried to buy it
for themselves.

You know, and considering,
I'm not gonna go into names,

but who was a movie star
at the time,

this would be enough to repel
even the most greedy amongst us.

I had every single meeting
including one

where someone who wanted to make
a musical out of it

and jumped up on the table
in the middle of the meeting

to show me how it could
be a musical.

And this went on for a very long
time because of the saying no.

Yeah.

You know, this was unheard of,
you know,

and no one believed me,
including my agent.

You know, no one believed me
and everyone kept telling me,

you know, "That's really good
you said no because now--"

"Now we could really get more."

Right. And even some of the
amounts of money I was offered

would be really great now.
Yeah.

I mean, that's how much money
I was offered.

And the same thing
when the second book came out.

Another round
of it started.

Now, if I had known
that was it,

that would have been
the point to--

But I didn't realize that.

But it was worth it
for the meetings.

I'll always have
these meetings.

The next morning, I was awakened
by a telephone call

from said agent informing me
that she had just

received and rejected
the offer of a sum

in six figures for the movie
rights to my unwritten book.

"I think we can get more,"
she said.

"I'll talk to you later."

I mulled this over and called
her back. "Look," I said,

last year I earned $4,000
for the things that I wrote."

"This year, I've been offered
two sums in six figures,

"this amount included the book
rights to my unwritten book,

"for the things
that I have not written.

"Obviously, I've been
going about this whole business

in the wrong way."

"Not writing,
it turns out,

"is not only fun, but also,
it would appear,

"enormously profitable.

"Call the movie guy
and tell him

that I have several
unwritten books."

You've been on the road

with your hit book,
Social Studies,

It's number 11 on The New York
Times bestseller list.

What's it been like
out there in America?

The exact opposite of here.
What?

I love it out there
in America.

What particularly
do you like about it?

The way they buy books.

They are buying your book,
aren't they?

Yes, they are.
And I thank them for it.

Do you think
that they know

what you're really
writing about?

I hope not.

I understand
that some people

seem to think
it's a self-help book.

It is.
It's helping myself.

I'm familiar with education

and art
as sort of marginal.

And is this some kind
of peculiarly American

kind of anti-intellectualism,
you think?

Well, I don't know

how they think about it
all over the world,

but certainly in America--

I mean, America has always
hated, you know,

eggheads, or whatever,
you know.

I mean, when they invent
the term "elite,"

they don't mean rich.

America loves rich people.
They mean smart.

I mean, "We don't want
these elites in here.

We don't want any of you
smart people in here."

Do you think some people
are born lucky?

That is the biggest
piece of luck in life.

Yeah.
No one wants to admit that,

in this country especially,

because it agitates against
the very notion of America.

But, I mean, that's the idea
of democracy,

is to minimize
that first second of luck.

When you draw your first breath,
you know,

if babies had that type
of consciousness,

they would look around and most
babies would think, "Mm, no."

"Now this isn't what I meant.

This isn't what
I had in mind."

Gender.
Gender.

Gender.
Very big piece of luck.

Here's what a big piece
of luck it is.

Any white,
gentile straight man

who is not president
of the United States failed.

Okay?

That's what a big piece of luck
that is. Okay?

So, what do you think

are the innate differences
between men and women?

Testosterone.
Testosterone is not learned.

Okay? If it could be learned,

we would be studying,
because it works.

So testosterone is actually
some sort of chemical

that is in the human body.

And testosterone gives people,
men, who have it,

an advantage, because it is
what makes men aggressive.

Women having babies
is really a disadvantage.

It is a disadvantage
to women.

Even though women now
seek to have babies,

or in fact do extraordinary
things to their bodies

in order to have babies
at the age of 40, 50, whatever.

It does kind of put you out
of commission in lots of ways.

Which is that once
a woman has a baby,

she seems to be
so interested in it.

I mean, a woman in a room
with her baby

is looking at that baby.
Okay?

Is that who you want
for your lawyer?

Okay? Men now go around
with their babies.

I see them all the time
with their babies.

They're always talking
about their babies,

but they're not
really looking at them.

If they were your lawyer,
they'd still be your lawyer.

Because they're really not
that interested in the baby.

They just have to do that now,
it's like, you know, the style.

So it is very
hampering to women,

the fact
that they have babies

or that they want
to have babies.

You know, that is very
hampering to women.

It is very helpful to men
that they have testosterone.

You know, men don't want
women to have power

because they already have it.

People don't want other people
to have what they have.

When I was growing up,

I was taught
in American history books

that Africa had no history,

and neither did I.

That I was a savage

about whom
the less said the better,

who had been
saved by Europe

and brought to America.

And, of course,
I believed it.

I didn't have much choice.

Those were the only books
there were.

Everyone else
seemed to agree.

If you walk out of Harlem,
ride out of Harlem downtown,

the world agrees,

what you see is much bigger,

cleaner, whiter,
richer, safer.

And it would seem then,
of course,

that it's an act of God.

That this is true.

That you belong

where white people
have put you.

It seems to me
that of all the indictments

Mr. Baldwin has made
of America

here tonight

and in his copious literature
of protest,

The Fire Next Time,

in which he threatens America,

he didn't,
in writing that book,

speak with
the British accent

that he used
exclusively tonight.

In which he threatened
America with the necessity...

...for us to jettison...

...for us to jettison
our entire civilization.

The only thing that
the white man has

that the Negro should want,
he said, is power.

You wrote a fantastic piece

in Vanity Fair on race.

And I just really want
to know how you felt

about the public discourse

about race
in this last election.

You know, I mean,
Obama's speech about race,

I thought, was great.

I thought that-- I mean,
it seemed astonishing to me

that no one made
such a speech before.

Yeah, it was.
I mean,

here is the problem
of being ahead of your time.

By the time everyone
gets around to it, you're bored.

So you know?

I think that--

I think that people are
afraid to talk about it,

because they feel they don't
want to offend people,

or their usual way of talking
about it is, in fact, offensive,

and they're trying to think what
would be the non-offensive way?

I think that that's probably
true a great deal of the time.

You know,
I think it's very important

that there be
a black president,

mostly so that
we got it over with.

So that, you know, this--
Uh-huh.

This is something that
should be in our past.

This shouldn't be in
our present. This is absurd.

It's an absurd way
to categorize people.

It is. I mean, in that piece
that you talked about,

Erroll, my editor,

interviewed me about that.
He asked me,

did I think racism would end?
Yes. Uh-huh.

You know, could it end?

And I said no,
I didn't think it would end.

You know.
But I think it could end.

It's possible for it to end,
because it's a fantasy.

Fantasy.

Racism is a fantasy
of superiority.

A fantasy can end,
you know.

It probably won't.
But it can.

Whereas, you know,

inequality of women
would never end,

because it's biological.
It's a reality. You know.

Men are really
different from women.

There is really a difference
between men and women.

There is not really
a difference

between people
of different races.

You know, not-- I mean,
the difference is skin-deep.

Mm-hm.
You know.

So that racism can end.
I don't think it will end.

I don't the election of Barack
Obama shows that it ended.

I just think it showed
that it's not as bad as it was.

You know. Which is really
the most we can hope for.

I think that we're
astonished

that Americans
did anything good.

The history of writing
is the history

of when people
are actually writing

they do something bad
to themselves at the same time.

You know, people used to drink,
people smoked.

While you're writing, you're
doing something bad to yourself,

and that is to punish yourself
for playing God.

This is not the luckiest time
to be a writer,

because writers don't have very
much influence on the culture.

And there was a time
when writers

were right in the center
of the culture.

And that is more desirable,

because writers
want to influence.

Were the Algonquin Round Table

an influence when you
were growing up?

Well, I mean, I read about them.
Yeah.

I'm not that old.
I know.

They were in--
That wasn't the point.

I mean, I read--

Because they all had
happy lives.

But they did. I mean, that life
in New York City of those people

was very enjoyable.
They did enjoy that life.

That's not true
that they didn't.

I mean, they were not
happy people

in the way
that you're talking about.

But they did enjoy
that life.

In that era,
people played word games.

You know, I mean, adults,
you know, played word games.

The use of language
was highly valued

by the culture in general.

So if you were
very good at it,

like George S. Kaufman
or Dorothy Parker

or someone like that, then you
were highly rewarded for it.

Razors pain you

Rivers are damp

Acids stain you
And drugs cause cramp.

Guns aren't lawful
Nooses give

Gas smells awful
You might as well live.

You've been referred to

as a modern-day
Dorothy Parker,

and I was wondering
if you agree with that.

And if not, who is it that
you seek to emulate,

if anyone at all?

I'm very heartened that
someone who, like,

seems, from this distance,
to be as young as you are

ever heard of Dorothy Parker.

And I am even,
at this point in my life,

happy to be considered
the modern-day anything.

But I'm not really a person
who's ever been, like,

that big on, you know,
I don't know, emulating.

I mean, Dorothy Parker,

if you read her book reviews,
you know,

book reviews
of popular novels,

you never heard of
the writer, you never heard--

They are unbelievably funny.

They're funny now. You don't
have to know the writer.

You don't have
to know the book.

So they lost
all their context,

which especially funny writers

depend a lot
on context like that,

and I don't suppose
she thought

anyone would be reading them,
you know, 60 years later.

But you can.
And they're really funny.

You know, they're really,
really funny.

For wit,
I think Dorothy Parker.

For just plain, laugh-out-loud,
unbelievable funniness,

I don't think there's
any American writer

that touches Thurber.

I was kicked out
of class numerous times

for reading Thurber
behind my geography book.

You know, because you
could not stop laughing.

I slept in his bed once.

Yeah, they made his house,
you know,

his childhood house
into a museum

and they invite a writer
to go there and you sleep there.

And, of course, I didn't sleep,
but I, like--

That's the museum I stayed
overnight in by myself.

So I was, like,
terrified.

They were issuing
a Thurber stamp.

And I thought it was
like a literary event,

the issuing of the stamp, but
in fact is was a postal event.

And the postmaster general
came dressed like a general.

The postmaster general
has a uniform.

Where was this?
This was at a bar.

This was wherever Thurber
was from in Ohio, Cincinnati,

whatever it is.

It was the issuing
of the stamp.

That was the actual event.

And there were hundreds
and hundreds if not thousands,

of people in line,
and I thought, "This is amazing.

So many Thurber fans."

No. They're stamp collectors.

It was like being
at a Star Wars convention.

They go to every first day
issue stamp thing.

They're all--
They look like Star Wars fans.

They're all like these kind
of damp, sweaty boys,

hundreds of them. They--

And they have a certain way
that you have to sign it.

They issue
the first day cover,

and they want everyone
associated with it to sign it.

And if you put your pen,
like, in the wrong-- "No!"

"No." It was the most
bizarre thing I've ever--

It was really like
a Star Wars convention.

They issue the stamp--
I'm not kidding,

like, two months later
they change the postage rate.

So nobody used them.
So no one used them.

Not even two months.

That's fitting.
That's just perfect.

So I have some of the stamps
that I got there.

How does Mr. Kaplan plead?
Quiet.

Not guilty, Your Honor.
There's a first.

We are still exhuming bodies.

Enough. Someone else can sort
through the evidentiary issues,

thank God.

Bail is set at 300,000,
cash or bond.

Your Honor.

Happy? No? Good.

Next case.

That is my dream job,
is to be on the Supreme Court.

Chief Justice of the Supreme
Court. It is my dream.

For sartorial reasons?

For-- Well, robes.
Also, you know,

other people write their work
for them, you know.

They just give their ideas
and other people write it up.

I think I'd be a fabulous
Supreme Court judge

because also,
I make snap judgments.

You know, there's no one
more judgmental than me.

I don't know why
it takes them so long.

Everything up before
the Supreme Court,

I know the answer to.
Like I think, really?

They're deliberating
about this?

Do you believe in--?

No.

Do you believe
in getting even?

You mean do I believe
in revenge?

Yes.
I definitely believe in revenge.

I absolutely
believe in revenge.

Which people always say
revenge is, you know,

a dish best served cold.

It's good anytime
you can get it. You know.

Any chance you have
for revenge, take.

Never let that pass you by.
I do. I believe in revenge.

I don't believe
in forgiveness, however.

It might be ethnic,

because forgiveness
is a Christian thing.

I mean, forgiveness,
in fact, is Christianity.

That's what
Christianity is.

I mean, everyone was Jewish,
then came Christ.

He said,
"I'll forgive you."

Oh-ho!
Well, they all went.

Naturally,
it's a much bigger religion.

But the Jewish god
is an avenging god.

The Jewish god's a judge,
you know.

So I am-- I would say
that I am very judgmental.

I'm afraid of gas.

Okay, I don't know,
really, what gas is,

but I know it explodes, because
that's how the car works.

Okay. I'm not touching something
that's going to explode.

Okay? I don't want to,
you know.

I do not want to,
I do not feel--

My grandparents did not come
here steerage to Ellis Island,

so I could put gas in a car.

I'm not putting gas
in the car.

It's as simple as that.

I'm scared of it.
It explodes,

it smells horrible,
I don't want to touch it.

In Long Island once,
I got, actually,

into a fight with someone
who had like a million, like,

crosses on their--
It was a van,

and they had, like, all these
crosses pasted to it,

and like, you know,
"Jesus says" this

and "Jesus says" that.

And I said, "You know,
I can't put gas in the car.

"I am very afraid of gas.

Could you, like, help me
put gas in the car?" "No."

Are you kidding me? Like,
the guy was really, like, nasty.

I said,

"Don't you think Jesus
would put gas in my car?

"Like, say I asked Jesus.

"You seem to have an intimate
relationship with Jesus.

You have things
all over your car."

I said, "I personally
believe Jesus, if I said,

"'Excuse me, Jesus,
would you put gas in my car?'

"He would say,
'Of course.

'It's the Christian thing
to do.'"

I own a Checker.
Did you know that?

You own a Checker?

I own a Checker Marathon.

That is my car.
I bought it new.

I bought it in 1978.

After my first book
came out,

which was the first time
I ever had money,

and among the last times,

the first thing I did
was buy a car.

It is very large.
In fact, it's pretty much

the size of the apartment
that I had when I bought it.

And the color?

Well, it is such
a subtle shade of pearl gray

that straight men
think it's white.

You know,
when I was in the garage,

I had to say,
"It's the white..."

I used to have to say,
"It's the white Checker."

Now I have to say,
"It's that old big white car

that looks like
an old-fashioned taxicab."

I remember
when I got this car

driving up
to a bookstore uptown

that was partly owned
by this guy I knew,

and I pulled up in front
of the bookstore in this car.

And he came out and he said,
"Once a punk, always a punk."

Because, it was--
You know,

It's such a crazy thing to do,
to own a car in Manhattan.

No one who lives
in the Borough of Manhattan

who has a car uses it.

Because you want to get
that full $8 million a month

out of the garage.

By which I mean, you have
rented its own apartment,

which in any other city,
it would be--

You could live lavishly.

And now, I'm going
to answer questions

from the audience
in an entertaining fashion.

You don't have to ask them
in an entertaining fashion.

Don't ask them
in an entertaining fashion.

When I do things, you know,
like a reading,

or an interview on a stage,

I take questions
from the audience.

But the truth is now

what people get are answers
from the audience.

You know, and it's one thing
that I do not want

is answers
from the audience.

I mean, answers from
the audience

used to be called heckling.

That's an answer
from the audience.

You know, I mean,

who wants an answer
from the audience, you know?

My feeling always is,
"Really, you don't like it?

"I mean you came to see me,
I didn't go to see you."

It isn't like I broke
into your house, you know.

I know, for instance,

that there are people who really
dislike me very intensely.

Almost no one says
anything nasty to me,

because they're afraid
I'll say something nastier back.

However,
you can be, you know,

speaking at a college in,
you know,

I don't know,
New Orleans or something--

That's why I thought of because
it happened in New Orleans.

And so there was an unusual
number of, like,

what seemed
to be fraternity boys,

which I would say was
not maybe my usual audience.

But there seemed to be
a lot of boys in the audience.

Like big groups
of boys together.

You know, not like
the big groups of boys together

I used to get
in San Francisco,

the big groups of boys together
that drink a lot of beer

and that you're not
that happy to see

when you look into
the audience.

Because I could still see them.
It was a long time ago.

And it was New Orleans,
which is very humid,

and it was also raining, which
is, you know, common there.

So my hair
was extremely curly.

And after I'd been there
quite a long time,

one of these kids, these boys,
yelled out,

"Who does your hair?" Which was
a very surprising thing.

I mean,
because obviously,

he meant my hair
was, like, very curly.

And so I just said,
"Why, you want to meet him?"

His mother
wrote me a letter,

but I mean, like,
a month later,

telling me that I had
ruined her son's life,

that her son
dropped out of school.

"You called my son a..."

You know, not a homosexual,
another word for homosexual.

"And he was with his
fraternity brothers,

"and they were
so hard on him."

You know, and that
he had to leave school.

And I thought to myself,
"Really? He had to leave school?

He had to leave school?"
I mean, can't you take a joke?

You know?
You had to leave school?

And I thought, if the school had
this type of fraternity in it,

you should be thanking me
for getting your son

out of this idiotic school.

I'm not very often nasty.

I'm not very often nasty
to people's faces, very rarely.

You know,
first of all, you know,

I believe in talking
behind people's backs,

that way they hear it
more than once.

You know.

Do you have nerves

before speaking
in front of people?

No. I reserve
all of my fear for writing.

All of it.
I mean, really,

otherwise I would say,
you know, all of it.

Now of course, that's a very bad
thing to do, you know,

if you're, say,
supposed to be a writer.

Would be much better to,
like, spread your fear out,

you know,
so that you could actually,

I don't know, write.

But all my fear
I put in one basket.

I once fell asleep
in the green room

at Letterman
before I went on.

That's how--
They had to wake me up.

"Fran, you're going on next."

Which, of course, means last
if you're a writer.

Okay, finally, you know,
Miss America is finally off.

You would be,
like, the third.

There would be
an actual movie star.

Then whoever
is Miss America

or, you know,
something like that, then you.

No, I have
no nervousness at all.

You may be tired of this,

but tell me about
the writer's block business.

Because everybody seems
to want

to talk about you
and writer's block.

Well, I mean, I--
I don't really--

I would not
call it a writer's block.

A writer's block, to me,
is a temporary thing.

A month. Six weeks.
Yeah.

This is more a writer's
blockade, I would say.

In fact--
Or a writer's decade?

Yes, I mean, to me this was
very much like the Vietnam War.

It was the same timetable.

It was on the same schedule
as the Vietnam War.

I don't know how I got into it
and I couldn't get out of it.

So I don't really know
all the reasons for it.

I mean, I think I had
a kind of delayed

and not very positive reaction
to success.

And you were able to go
around and do lectures

and write a magazine piece
here and a magazine piece there.

I basically did three million
college lecture dates a year,

which is really a depressing
way to make a living.

Yes, you spent a lot of time
on airlines.

And I really felt you would slog
through these airports

with your little suitcase.

I was like the Willy Loman
of literature.

Yeah. You loved writing

until you became
a professional writer.

You said that before.
You said it again.

What was it about
writing professionally?

I have a tremendous
resistance to authority,

even if it's my own.

You know, I mean,
I think I am really lazy.

I am the most slothful person
in America.

No one has wasted time
more than I have. No one.

No, I would say that, you know,
I don't like to brag,

but I would say that--

Well, let me just
put it this way:

I'm the outstanding waster
of time of my generation.

I don't need, like,
my friends to say this.

My enemies would tell you
this is true, you know?

So there's no-- No one's
wasted time more than I have.

I mean, I looked up--
You know, it was like 1979.

I looked up,
it was, like, 2007.

I thought, "You know,
you better get to work, Fran."

What's the best source
for unbiased news?

Me.

He asked,
in my opinion,

what's the best source
for unbiased news.

Me. No, here is the problem.

Here is what news used to be.
Information.

That's what news is.

Now every article
in The New York Times starts--

No matter what it is,
it starts with, like,

"On a rocky road
in Afghanistan..."

It's like three paragraphs

till you get to a bomb blew up
something in Afghanistan.

The bomb is the news.
The beginning is the writing.

Facts, you know, facts are
what's important in news.

But no one is interested
in facts anymore.

People are interested--
And this I find astonishing.

They are interested
in other people's opinions.

So unbiased news, I don't
think we'll have anymore,

because no one seems
to know what news is.

Okay? And no one seems
to know,

and they turn on
the news,

and they watch people
give their opinions.

That's what they watch
on TV, the Internet,

that's what they
participate in.

Or how do you--? I mean--

Here's how I feel when
someone on CNN says,

"And here is
our Twitter number,"

or whatever you call it.

I'm not high
on high technology.

But whatever it is. "We want
to know what you think."

And I think,
"Really? I don't."

Here is the host

of Jeopardy,
Alex Trebek.

Thank you,
Johnny Gilbert. Sean.

Let's try the Quotable
Fran Lebowitz for 400, please.

Lynne.
What are your guts?

Yeah.
Lebowitz for 12.

Sean.
What is room service?

Yes.

The media has replaced
every institution.

It's replaced
every single institution.

There is--
It's the only authority.

I mean, it seems to be
an authority, you know,

but I mean it is--

It's replaced all other
institutions.

You know, when they first
invented television,

apparently there were people
that thought

that television
would be a failure,

because they thought
that people,

if they could see
around the screen,

they wouldn't believe
what was on television.

In other words, they wouldn't
become absorbed by it.

You know, they would
be distracted,

because even
though a TV screen--

That they would see, like,
you know, the lamp and the sofa.

And they wouldn't-- And they
wouldn't be absorbed by it.

And that was one fear
about television.

Another fear about television
was that, like,

say, in the 1950s,
intellectuals said,

you know,
it's gonna ruin the culture.

But no one could have imagined
what really happened.

Which is that the world
went inside the television

and became the world.

You know. And so even though
that, you know,

everyone says the Internet
is replacing television,

it's just a different--

And it's a screen.
It's the same thing.

I mean, it's just
a different format for it.

I do not have a cell phone.
I do not have a BlackBerry.

I do not have a-- What do you
call it, computer?

Or any of these things.
A microwave oven. Whatever.

All of which seem like the same
thing to me, by the way.

You know?
Like, if you tell me,

"Well, the microwave oven,
can you text on that?"

"Yes." I would believe you.

Okay, so, I have
none of these machines.

Which is what allows people

to not be wherever they are.
Okay?

But since
I don't have them,

and I'm forced to be where
I am all the time,

which is why I'm noticing
what other people are doing.

Most people aren't noticing
where they are

because they're not
really any place.

They're-- If you are, like,
doing this,

that's where you are.

I don't care where you're
doing it, that's where you are.

So the experience of the street,
say, in New York,

which I have commonly,
you know, every day,

I'm one of the very few people
in the street

having the experience
of the street.

Walking in New York
is a mode of transport.

That's how I get around.
I walk everywhere.

So when I'm walking
I'm, like, not strolling.

I'm not exercising.

I'm getting somewhere
and, of course,

because it's New York,
I'm late.

So one of the things I don't
have time for is strollers.

If you look at who's
in these strollers,

half the time the children
are so big they don't even fit.

In other words,
their legs are dragging.

These children,
they're 5'10", 5'11",

they're lolling
in the back.

I mean, the first person
who invents a stroller

with a shaving mirror,

that person is gonna
be a millionaire.

Because when I was a child,

the worst thing
a child could call another child

was a baby.
That was the worst thing.

Now apparently that is
the goal of all children,

is to stay babies.

And it is apparently
the goal of the parents,

maybe who figure,
"We went to all this trouble

"to have a baby.
Let's keep them a baby.

I mean, it cost 40 grand
to have these two babies."

Or maybe more. Probably that's
a naive estimate.

I don't know,
I've never done this.

People are probably
watching this and saying,

"Forty grand, what is she,
some hick? Not here.

Here it costs 80 grand."

You know, they have
these, like, twins.

They keep them
in the stroller

till they're like 16,
17 years old.

They have this look
on their face like,

"Walk? Not me.
I'm not walking."

I'm wondering what the New York

of your dreams
would be like,

if we got rid of the tourists,
you know?

The New York of my dreams?

I mean, everyone,
no matter how old they are,

says New York
used to be better.

This has always been true,
by the way.

In 1812, people said, "Wasn't
New York better in 1790?"

So people always say New York
used to be better,

and it can't
always be true. Okay?

Now, I have been very careful
not to do what many people do,

which is,
one of the things,

when you say something
used to be better,

that's implicit
in that is that,

well, when it used to better,

here's one thing
that is always true:

You were younger.

If you ask me, "Was New York
better in the '70s?"

I would say,
"Absolutely,"

with the caveat that I know that
I was in my 20s in the '70s.

So I know that it's better

to be in your 20s
than in your 50s.

I know that.
I'm aware of it. Okay?

I do think, objectively,
New York was better,

because it was
less boring.

I don't know.

Everyone seems to have
a very high boredom threshold.

Okay?
Also, you could smoke.

Which is one of the reasons
it was less boring.

Because if you're a smoker,
when you're smoking,

no matter how boring it is,
at least you're smoking.

Smoking is an addiction.

People act now like it's
some sort of moral failure.

But, I mean, in fact, I mean,
it's a very strong addiction.

You know. This is-- I mean,
let me put it to you this way.

I could be starving to death.
I wouldn't leave my apartment

at 3:00 in the morning
in a snowstorm

for anything
but cigarettes.

You know. And I remember once,
you know,

being in a Duanereade,
this drugstore,

to buy cigarettes
at, like, 3:00 in the morning.

And the clerk
had to say,

"Oh, you know, Marlboro Lights,
they're on sale."

And I thought, really?
Why? Why are they on sale?

I mean, you know, it's, like,
is there a heroin sale?

You know, a sale
is to entice you, and I'm here--

It's 3:00 in the morning,
it's snowing. You know.

They could be a million
dollars, I don't care.

All the things they say now
about cigarette smoking,

they used to say
about homosexuality. Okay?

They used to say you can't
be around children.

It was really always
the secondhand nature

of homosexuality
that scared people.

Okay? You--

Gay bars were illegal.

They were in backrooms.

They were raided
by the police.

But you could
smoke in them.

It was against the law.
And it was beyond the pale.

I mean, it was illegal,

and when they would raid
a gay bar--

This is even when
I first came to New York,

which was like '69,
something like that.

When they would raid a gay bar,
the next day,

the names of every single
person in the bar, the patrons,

was in The New York Times,
not just some tabloid,

and every single person was
fired from their job that day,

and it didn't matter,
what your job was.

If you were a cardiologist
at Mount Sinai Hospital,

you sold shoes
at Bloomingdale's,

you taught third grade
at PS10,

you were fired
from your job.

And the reason:
You were homosexual.

That was the reason
for firing.

That wasn't like,
"Well, we're going to pretend

it's about something--" No.
It was respectable to do that.

Now, gay bars have, like,
plate-glass windows,

they have valet parking,
the cars pull up,

people are sitting
in the windows.

But you have to go outside
to smoke.

I mean, if you had told me,
when I was 14 years old,

that the behavior
in which I engaged

that would be considered
most deviant

would have been
cigarette smoking,

I would have had a whole
different adolescence.

I have a shelf full,
more than a shelf full

of books written by doctors
about homosexuality,

explaining how it's contagious
it's deviant, it's--

Just the way,
I guarantee you,

I won't live long enough
because I smoke,

but you will live to see them
admit that this data

on secondhand smoke
is fudged.

If secondhand cigarette smoke,
this little stream of smoke,

if that is that dangerous,

imagine what happens
when you turn on

the engine of your car.

Do you feel that gay rights
is progressing in this country,

to be as equal as--

I mean, to be part of
the civil rights conversation?

First of all, I don't think
these things are alike

the way other people do.

I think there has always been a
difference between these things.

And I think there is
a difference

between being marginalized
and being oppressed.

I know-- I know every bad thing,
believe me.

I'm not saying
it's nothing.

I'm just saying
it's not slavery. Okay?

It's not the same thing.

In my lifetime,
it's inconceivable

that it's even gotten
to the point

where people
use the word "gay."

That's progress, by the way.
I mean, if you like the word.

I personally don't
use it in private, but--

--I mean, do I think
gay marriage is progress?

Are you kidding me?

Like, this was one of the good
things about being gay.

I mean, I am stunned

that the two greatest desires,
apparently,

of people involved
in gay rights movements

is gay marriage and gays
in the military. Really?

I mean, to me it seems
like these are

the two most confining
institutions on the planet:

marriage
and the military.

Why would you be, like, beating
down the doors to get in?

Usually a fight for freedom
is a fight for freedom.

This is like the opposite.

You know, this is like
a fight for slavery.

I find it
completely shocking.

I mean, if it was
on the ballot here

I'd vote for it
because I know people want it.

But, personally, not me.

Nor do I want
to go in the Army.

I mean, people used
to pretend to be gay

to get out
of going in the Army.

I always had this theory

that if you want to move
someone else as an artist,

you want to,

you yourself necessarily
must have been deeply moved

by what it is
that you're writing,

but you must keep exploiting
that emotion in yourself

over and over
and over and over

till you've become
completely cold about it.

I mean, so that you
no longer laugh, say,

about whatever it is
that made you laugh,

or you don't weep for whatever
it is that made you weep.

You see it like it was
some extraordinary specimen

but you know that it had that
effect on you, personally.

So that you know that
if you can reproduce it,

you can make it have exactly
the same effect on--

On someone else.

People used to say
all the time

there must be something
about homosexuality

that makes you
more artistic.

Because there is
such a huge,

I mean, beyond excessive number
of homosexual artists

relative to the number
of homosexuals.

But, of course,
it isn't it true.

What is not true that being
homosexual makes you artistic.

What is true is that
being put in prison,

or being, like,
kept out,

or being--
Being depressed.

I mean, or being--
Being forced to observe.

When Toni Morrison won
the Nobel Prize for Literature,

she took a bunch of friends
with her to watch her get it,

because I guess what's the fun
of winning a Nobel Prize,

if people don't
see you get it?

And at the Nobel Prize ball,

which is an incredibly
elaborate event,

even more than it sounds like,

with flags flying on the--
It's really beautiful.

The whole city stands out to
applaud economists and writers.

It's just like New York.

And it is very formal.

It's like white tie.

And we all walked in together,
all of Toni's friends.

And there's someone
who's in charge

of seating
the Nobel Prize dinner.

And everyone was sitting
at the same table, except me.

Well, not Toni.
Toni was sitting with the king.

As I sit down, I realize
I'm the only adult at the table.

It is all-- All the people
who win the science prizes,

they're very young,
you know.

And it was all--
It was their kids.

I was sitting at
the children's table

at the Nobel Prize ball.

It's, like, it took me years
to get out of that table

in my own family
at Thanksgiving,

and now, I'm sitting
at this children's table

at the Nobel Prize ball,

where the next oldest person
to me was 12.

And this was what
the Nobel Prize ball dinner,

which is like six hours,
was like for me.

"Put that down.
Take that out of your pocket."

It would be like--

And they're reading
the menu

and the food comes
and the little boy next to me,

the 8-year-old says,
"What's that?"

And so I said,
"Mm, it's steak."

It was a reindeer.
Oh.

And so he goes,
"Really, it's steak?"

I said, "Yes, it's steak."
Okay, he eats it.

As soon as he's done eating,

his older brother goes,
"It's reindeer!

You ate Bambi!"

And the kid, like, looks at me,
and he's furious,

and he goes,
"You lied to me."

And I said, "That's okay.
I'm not your mother.

You're never gonna
see me again."

"You lied to me!
How could you lie to me?

I'll never trust you again!"

I said, "You'll never
see me again.

You're 8 years old.
You live in Kansas."

That was my experience
of the Nobel Prize ball.

Teaching manners to
these children from Kansas.

And I really needed
to know manners too,

because at a certain point,

I got up and walked over
to my publisher's table,

who's also Toni's publisher,

although they've had
better luck with Toni,

to ask his wife something.
And she was--

She said, "Get down.
What are you doing?"

She said, "Get down." She pushed
me down on the floor.

And I said, "What are
you talking about?"

She said, "You know
you can't stand up

"if the king
is sitting down.

You know that, Fran."

I said, "I don't know that."
She said, "You know that."

I said, "How would
I know that?"

Like, this is one thing
my mother forgot to teach me.

"And, Fran, if you're ever
having dinner in the same room

with the King of Sweden,
make sure you don't stand up."

I mean, she said,
"You cannot-- Stay there.

You're gonna cause
an international incident."

So then she goes,
"Go back to your table."

I said, "How can I go
back to my table?"

And I walked back.
I was like Groucho Marx.

I walked back to my table
like this.

So apparently,
although I have always thought

that I, you know,
had good manners,

not good enough for this.

Nice to have you with us,
especially since

you're going through
a hard time.

A little bit of controversy
about your children's book,

Mr. Chas and Lisa Su
Meet the Pandas.

What's going on?

Well, I've heard from a great
number of panda experts.

You're probably surprised,
as I was, to discover

there are a great number
of panda experts.

I mean, I've actually
gotten letters that say,

"Pandas don't eat pizza."

Really?
"Pandas eat bamboo,

which, in fact,
is why they're rare."

Because there are apparently
fewer and fewer bamboo trees.

Okay. That's why
there are no pandas.

That is right. So clearly,
they should eat pizza.

"These pandas talk."

So I was obviously--

Which is another--
I was trying to pull the wool

over the eyes
of the American public.

Now, you've been writing
real adult books.

Not real adult books.
I shouldn't say that.

You've been writing
adult books

and you've been writing
children's books.

What is easier to do?

Children's books.

Really? Why is that?
Yes.

The whole thing is much less
complicated

and there are pictures
that take up a lot of the space.

So, what happens when--?

what happens when
you go on TV shows, say,

like this one and you say

writing children's books
is easy?

Easier.
Easier.

Do children's book
authors now get mad?

Are you going to get
letters from them?

Yes.
You will?

I've gotten letters
from them.

You've offended them now.
Yes.

But they write in crayon
on short cardboard, so--

All right.
It's not that threatening.

It's not
a threatening thing.

I am interested
in that arc of creativity

that's associated
with age.

So I'm wondering
why it is

that some artists
are better later in life.

Not all writers
become better, Toni. I mean--

Of course not.
No. I mean, first of all,

some writers run out
of material.

I mean, some--
You know--

Fitzgerald.
I mean, I know he died.

But if he had lived, is there
any doubt in your mind

that he would have
become a worse writer?

He would have not become
a better writer, Fitzgerald.

He wrote The Crack-Up,
though.

Yeah.
Very late.

Before he died, though.

To require someone to turn out
masterpieces is psychotic.

You know. I mean, you know,
to say things like,

"Fitzgerald, he only wrote
one great book."

You know, I mean, Really?
How many do most people write?

You know. Most writers
who write a million books,

don't write even
one good book.

You know, so I'm not saying
that it's not

an incredibly
valuable thing to have done.

I mean, Toni Morrison's
new book, you know,

is, I think,
her best book.

You know, she's 76.

I think there's an idea
that has to do, really,

with people's idea
of artists

that has nothing at all
to do with art,

but just people's-- A romantic
idea of the artist.

So a romantic idea
of the artist,

the artist has to be young,

because no one has a romantic
idea of an old person.

I was interested
in older people.

I always had friends
much older than me.

I had friends
so much older than me

that by the time I was 40,

many of my closest friends
died of old age already.

But it was because
they were older than me.

In other words,
because they could

teach me something,
you know,

but not because I thought they
were going to do the new thing.

That was my job.

You know, that's how the work
used to be split up.

There's nothing new because the
culture is soaked in nostalgia.

You know, I believe that that
must be caused by people my age.

I mean, that cannot be
caused by 17-year-olds.

I mean, whosever in charge,
whosever driving,

they're the one
that has the accident.

I mean, if you're young,
everything's new to you.

So you don't know
that it isn't new.

You know, so that you go
to an exhibit

of a, you know, young artist
and everyone says,

"This is amazing."
And you look and you think,

"This is surrealism.
This is a hundred years old."

But you have to first know that,
you know.

Otherwise it seems like
a new invention to you.

Um, but, uh...

There's an endless recycling of
the culture of the last 30 years

that is really death-dealing.

You know, I think
it's just horrible.

Really awful.

You know, and that is a sort
of change I would like to see.

You know, I think
that is the job

of people who are young.

That's your job.
Do something new.

The action spreads

on Monday and Tuesday.

As enemy flags
are fixed to war memorials,

the issue of war
is joined to law and order.

Mr. Vidal,

wasn't it a provocative act

to try to raise a Vietcong flag
in the park?

There are many acts
which provoke.

But if you're going to have
freedom of assembly and speech,

you must be able to say it.
That is the whole point.

But I assume that the point
of American democracy

is you can express
any point of view you want.

Shut up a minute.
No, I won't.

Some people were pro-Nazi,

and they were well-treated
by people who ostracized them,

and I'm for ostracizing people
who egg on other people

to shoot American Marines
and American soldiers.

I know you don't care--
As far as I'm concerned

the only pro- or crypto-Nazi
I can think of is yourself.

Failing that, I would only say
that we can't have--

Let's not call names.

Listen, you queer,
stop calling me a crypto-Nazi

or I'll sock you
in your goddamn face.

Gentlemen, let's--

Let the author
of Myra Breckinridge

go back to his pornography

and stop making
any allusions of Nazism

to somebody who was
infantry in the last war.

You were not
in the infantry.

As a matter of fact,
you didn't fight in the war.

Now you're distorting
your own military record.

You have every right
in this country

to take any position
you want to take

because we are guaranteed
freedom of speech.

We've just listened to a rather
grotesque example of it.

Ladies and gentlemen,

please welcome Fran Lebowitz.

I heard that the Bush
administration had appointed

something called
the Iraq Study Group last week.

I mean, even if you were,
say, I don't know,

in the third grade--

--and you had a math test
coming up,

when do you think would
be the best time to study?

Before the test?

Or three years
after the test?

Where do you think
the Iraq Study Group meets?

I think,
Windows on the World.

Don't boo me.
I'm not even getting paid.

I did have the experience in my
lifetime of once being booed

by a quarter
of a million people, okay?

And this is the experience.

This is caused by Joe Papp.

There was this big movement
to get the Jews out of Russia.

I mean,
big among Jews,

not among Russians or anyone
else. No one noticed it.

And Joe Papp organized
a kind of a rally

that was in front of the UN

that was in favor of Soviet
Jewry being let out of Russia.

And because Joe Papp was
the head of the Public Theater,

he had at his fingertips,
like, you know,

all the famous actors.

So he got all these actors
to appear at this rally

to read letters from refuseniks,
people in Russia.

And he called me and said,
would I participate in this?

He had come to see me give a
reading of a book I was writing.

And I said okay, you know,
that I would do it.

And he said, "But, you know,
here's the thing.

"I went to your reading.
You can't be subtle at this.

"You can't just like lift that
eyebrow like I saw you do,

"you know,
in that bookstore.

"You have to be able to act,
you know, like Gregory Peck.

Can you act like that?"
I said, "No, of course I can't.

No, see,
here's the difference.

"Gregory Peck, he's an actor.
I'm not an actor. I can't act."

Because you're supposed
to be like the person

who's writing the letter.

But I was very much
looking forward to--

Because I looked out
and I didn't know

how many people there were.

There was what looked like
a billion people at this rally.

And I, of course,
had never had

such a large audience
myself.

And I love to talk
in front of people.

So I thought,
"This is great.

"Look at how
many people there are here.

This is fantastic."

And so then right before
I go--

Gregory Peck,
he was excellent.

I can't think of who
the other actors were.

But all excellent, you know.
They were all great.

But they also all talked
a little bit

before they read the letter.

And Joe Papp comes over
and he goes,

"You have to say
something before.

Do you have something
to say?" I said no.

So he said, "Well, just think
of something to say."

I said, "Okay."

So I have my letter,

which I tell the name of the
person who wrote the letter.

And I say,
"I'm sure that when--"

And I don't even remember who
was head of Russia at the time,

whoever was the head
of Russia.

"--I'm sure when, you know,
so-and-so,

"the head of Russia,
sees this on TV,

"and sees how many
people are here,

"that he'll immediately
acquiesce to your demands.

"Because I know that I,
for one,

certainly would not want this
many Jewish women angry at me."

A quarter of a million
people boo, all at once.

I mean, it's a sound
I cannot describe to you.

And two of the rabbis,
you know,

jump up and like
walk off the stage.

And I have like no idea
really what's happening.

Like, to me, I think,
"Well, it's not that funny,

but it's not the most unfunny
thing in the world."

And then I like look.
Joe Papp is like--

So I'm thinking,
"Do you want me to leave?"

"No." So then I had to read this
letter with them booing.

So that was my worst
audience experience

was being booed by
a quarter of a million people

and having to be taken off
the back of the stage by cops.

Okay, because there was
so much anger at me still,

even after I read
this delightful letter,

from like the good Jew who
wanted to get out of Russia

as opposed to me, the bad Jew,
who made fun of people.

Cops actually took me
and they took me

out of the whole neighborhood
in a police car.

Okay, so, after that, really,
what could happen to you?

You know, very little,
I must say.

You are just so fantastic.

Thank you. What is this?

Say It As It Is.
I love it so much.

This isn't me.

What?

Who's this?

Fran Lebowitz?

What is this?
I have no idea.

It's not me.

What do you mean?

This must be
a different Fran Lebowitz.

What is this?

Is this your booth
or is that your booth?

Well, I think of this
as my booth,

but all over New York there's
hundreds of thousands of people

who think they have
a table in a restaurant.

"That's my table." You know.
"That is my table.

Don't move my table.
That's my table."

And people,
"That's my dry cleaners.

They moved my dry cleaners."

This is a kind of ownership
that people in New York feel,

despite the fact that no one,
you know,

owns less than your average
New Yorker,

but no one feels
they own more.

Now, did you pose for this,
by the way?

I did not. I didn't even know
it was gonna be painted.

Okay.

And then one night
I was eating here,

and I saw a man
sitting across,

and he kept looking at me,
looking at me.

And I see him talk
to the waiter.

And then I hear him say,
"Ask Ms. Lebowitz

if she'd like to meet
the man who drew her."

And it was Mr. Sorel.
And he came over.

And he did it from
a photograph, he said.

At first I thought,
"Well, I don't know,

it's a little harsh."

Now I think
I look younger.

At a certain point,

the worst picture
taken of you when you were 25

is better than the best picture
taken of you when you're 45.

There's no--
There's no question.

Okay, so when you do
need a second opinion,

who do you go to?

Why would I need
a second opinion?

You mean, like, a cardiologist?
That kind of second opinion?

I go to a cardiologist
when I need a second opinion.

Thank you very much.
Good night.

Whether people seek
my advice or not,

it's really pleasurable
knowing everything.

Now, I'm sure
that people think,

"She doesn't know everything."
But they're wrong. I do.

So knowing everything
is really pleasurable,

especially watching
other people

who don't know everything.
You know?

So that it's like
I feel like

I'm in the stage of life,

what I would call
"the last laugh" stage of life.

You know? And the last laugh,
it's good.