Original subtitles

- We declare prophetically that marriage

shall rule within the land.

One man-one woman marriage will be established in this nation.

- This is the story of a network

of American religious organizations

known as the World Congress of Families.

They're out to protect traditional family values.

- We are better together as one man--

- But they've lost the battle at home.

Same-sex marriage is now legal across the U.S.

- Marriage is the union of one man and one woman.

[cheers and applause]

[tense music]

- So they're exporting their message

across the globe.

[all shouting]

- Homosexuality does not benefit the society.

It harms the people that engage in it.

- These groups and their associates

are setting their sights on Europe at the same time

as gay hate is on the rise.

- From their corners, six bald-headed

neo-Nazis approached me.

It was fucking terrifying.

- The strategy thrives on the vilification

of LGBTQ people as fundamental threats to society.

- And the laws they support are having

devastating consequences.

- Tonight, we investigate this network of organizations

and challenge their leaders on the laws they've supported.

- Do you accept any responsibility

for the consequences of this legislation?

- We have no responsibility for the legislation.

We affirm and celebrate beauty, goodness, and truth,

and that's what families are about.

[tense music]

- Russia, 2013.

We filmed a gay man being hunted by a group

of anti-gay activists.

He was lured over the internet, thinking he

was meeting another gay man.

Instead, he was trapped and then beaten.

- Groups like this felt emboldened after the Russian

Parliament passed a law, which included forbidding

the promotion of gay relationships

to children and restricted adoption

by homosexual couples.

[tense music]

In the two years that followed this legislative change,

Human Rights Watch observed a spike in homophobic attacks

across Russia, which were then posted on the internet

to continue the humiliation.

- We have seen an enormous amount

of attacks against gays and lesbians

that have multiplied across Russia.

They use the pretext of fighting pedophilia in Russia

to attack gay people.

There hasn't been really a public statement

from the authorities condemning this-- this attacks

and these crimes.

And so this men who attack gay men in Russia

feel that this is actually supported

by Russian authorities, by Russian public,

and that they're actually doing the right thing.

[tense music]

- Just days after the law was passed,

a Russian Parliamentary meeting was called

to discuss further laws banning adoption

by same-sex couples.

We've discovered that there was an American

at the table, Brian Brown.

He also gave a speech to the committee,

which was being chaired by Yelena Mizulina,

the very legislator behind the anti-gay propaganda law.

In it, he said he hoped his invitation would

contribute to the development of this movement

throughout the world.

And he was also happy to appear on Russian television

shortly after the meeting.

- This is what Brian Brown had to say

when challenged about his trip to Russia

on American television.

- Organizations like Mr. Brown's are going over

to places like Russia to work

with Putin and his team to pass--

- [laughs]

- --viciously anti-gay-- you can laugh,

but you did it, Mr. Brown.

- You can respond. - You went to Russia.

- I will definitely respond.

This is a slur.

I never worked-- I never--

- Hold on. First of all. - May I finish?

- Well, let him respond because you made-- you made the claim.

- You made an absolutely false claim

that I somehow worked with President Putin or anyone

like that. - Were you in Russia?

Were you in Russia for that conference?

- I go all around the world. - Hold on.

- And of course, we would go to Russia, just like groups that--

Freedom to Marry and HRC are members of go to Geneva,

go to Russia, go all around the world to advocate--

- Did you endorse a resolution--

did you endorse a resolution--

- Brian Brown confirmed to us that he

had spoken to the Russian parliamentary subcommittee.

He said, "I was invited to speak on the experience

of Americans who support the truth

that marriage is the union of one man and one woman.

I was not advocating any piece of legislation.

It is demonstrably false and a slur to claim that we

support violence or hatred.

I'm an advocate for marriage because it is a true and good

institution and has proven itself over centuries

as our best means to bring men and women

together and to provide the ideal environment

for raising children."

[tense music]

We decided to find out more about Brian Brown

and the global activities of the movement he belongs to.

This investigation will take us across four

continents following the trail

left by this network.

But we begin on their home territory here in the USA.

- Thank you all, and God bless you all, and praise

to God forever and ever.

Amen.

[cheers and applause]

- Brian Brown is an American on a mission.

- We're here gathering for something so simple,

that mothers and fathers are different and unique

and special, that marriage is the union

of one man and one woman.

[cheers and applause]

- He's president of the National Organization

for Marriage, an American group that

opposes the legalization of gay marriage

in the United States.

[together] # Nobody is stronger #

# Nobody is greater #

- Their annual March for Marriage in Washington, D.C.,

attracts thousands from across the country.

[together] One man, one woman.

One man, one woman.

- Come on!

[together] One man, one woman.

- But this summer, the Supreme Court made gay marriage

legal in all U.S. states.

Yet a third of Americans still oppose it.

- We stand for the truth about marriage.

And we know that someday, whether it's one year--

- While the official speakers stick resolutely to a positive

message, some of their supporters display

a negative anti-gay sentiment echoing

what we'd heard in Russia.

- So tell me what the difference

is between molestation and homosexual sex.

What is the difference?

- Consenting adults.

- Yeah, two people who love each other

versus maybe someone who's not consenting who's being raped.

It's not the same thing. - It's abomination.

They destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because

of the abomination of sodomy.

- I just want to share for a moment what

intolerance and disrespect is.

It was the homosexual man who tried to rape me

when I was a minor as a child.

That's intolerance and disrespect.

Thank you.

- God said, it's one man and one woman.

He said, if you turn your back on him,

he will turn his back on us.

- The tensions that have built up on this issue

have also been playing out in American homes,

particularly in the conservative states.

- Daniel, I want to tell you before I say

anything else that I love you.

You have made a choice.

- I have not--

- Evidently from what you've told your daddy.

- I have not--

- In Georgia, in the heart of the Bible Belt,

teenager Daniel Pierce secretly filmed

his parents' reaction after he told them he was gay.

- And I have known that you were gay since you

were a tiny little boy.

- Mm-hmm.

So you would know at this point, it's not a choice.

- And you have made a choice.

- I have not made a choice.

- Evidently from what you've told your daddy.

But I believe in the word of God,

and God creates nobody that way.

You will need to move out and find wherever you can to live

and do what you want to because I will not let people believe

that I condone what you do.

- You're twisting my words.

You are a complete--

- You twist everybody's words.

- You are a completely different person.

- Let me tell you something, you little piece of--

- No, no.

You're not gonna fucking hit me!

- No!

- Hey.

- You son of a bitch.

Get off me, bitch!

Get off me!

- Let me tell you something.

- Get out!

- Stop it. Stop it.

Stop it. Stop it.

- Get off of me!

What's wrong with you?

- Now at a time where we've seen

judges and courts decide that they

have the right to redefine what God has created,

we are here today to say, no.

- Brian Brown's organization is part of a global family

of religious conservative groups

who are taking their traditional family

message to the world.

They have joined forces as members

of an umbrella organization,

the World Congress of Families.

The World Congress of Families promote

themselves as a wholesome, family values organization.

They provide a platform for like-minded groups

to network, exchange ideas, and promote their cause

throughout the world.

Groups that make up the World Congress of Families

have combined total budgets of almost $200 million a year.

Their partners are funded by large corporations,

single donors, foundations, and charities

largely from the Christian right.

It publicly states that its mission is

to restore the natural family.

- The World Congress of Families is a network.

It's a big tent organization.

It really represents a global coalition

of conservative religious orthodoxies.

It involves some conservative Muslims, conservative Jews,

and a variety of other faiths.

Its purpose is to advance its agenda by networking

and developing a shared agenda among multiple organizations in

the United States and abroad.

They're working with insiders, networking the power brokers

to achieve their goals.

What they need is to get the right people in the room

together to develop the right relationships

in order to be able to influence

the passage of legislation.

And that's what they've been so effective at.

The public policy passed by Putin in Russia

is considered a victory by the World Congress of Families

and its member organizations.

- With the passing of the anti-gay propaganda law

in Russia, the World Congress of Families had gained

a powerful ally in the East.

We can also reveal how one of their key partners

has tried to influence the internal affairs

of a European nation.

[tense music]

- From their corners, six bald-headed

neo-Nazis approached me.

It was fucking terrifying.

[tense music]

- Since Slovakia joined the European Union,

gay rights activists have been emboldened by European human

rights legislation.

[upbeat music]

The first gay pride march in Slovakia was in 2010.

However, it met with a backlash

from neo-Nazi gay-hate groups.

[all chanting]

[sirens wailing]

[tense music]

Ramana Schlesinger has helped organize

gay pride marches in Slovakia.

It's made her a target for gay-hating vigilantes,

all too reminiscent of the attacks in Russia.

- So one day, I got this message from a girl,

who introduced herself as a member

of an anti-fascist movement.

And she said that she has some piece

of information on the attacks of neo-Nazi people

on a gay pride.

And we set up a meeting in this place.

I came here.

And that nice girl was not here.

I called the phone.

The phone was dead.

And then just right from that corner,

six bald-headed neo-Nazis approached me.

It was fucking terrifying.

[tense music]

- Ramana escaped by running into the supermarket

for safety.

However, she and many of her LGBT friends

have suffered increasing numbers of attacks

and now feel persecuted and demoralized.

- Just the last weeks, there have been attacks.

There was a suicide, unfortunately, successful one.

Some people feel that there's a threat

of physical violence, especially

gay men and trans women.

But then the kind of mental and psychological

pressure, months and months of attacks by the church, by the--

the radical groups, by civic society under the articles,

by the comments on the social media.

The situation is getting worse, and no one's

listening to us because on the first sight,

everything's so calm.

We're so civilized.

We're in the European Union.

We have anti-discrimination law.

You know, we are a civilized society.

- With tensions rising, a Slovakian pro-family

group began a campaign to stop same-sex marriage in Slovakia.

They wanted a referendum.

The aim of the referendum was to get it

into the constitution

that marriage can only ever be between a man and a woman.

And it went further.

Gay couples would be permanently banned

from adopting children, and parents

would be able to withdraw their children

from sex education in schools.

- [speaking in native language]

- 350,000 signatures were needed

to trigger the referendum.

The Catholic Church played a key role.

Priests lobbied their conservative parishioners.

Petitions were placed at the back of churches.

The threshold was met.

But Slovakia's president decided

that the referendum questions had to be approved

by the constitutional court.

It was at this point a leading partner of the World Congress

of Families got involved,

the Alliance Defending Freedom.

They provide international legal support

wherever they consider Christian beliefs

are under attack.

The Alliance Defending Freedom engaged Slovakian MP

and former deputy prime minister

Daniel Lipsic, who is also a constitutional attorney.

- Alliance Defending Freedom is becoming more

of an international operation.

They have their office, their headquarters in Europe,

in Vienna, and they are, I understand,

starting offices in Strasbourg and Brussels and Geneva.

And I'm happy to work for them, as I think they are doing

a very important job here, because many of these cases

that concerns traditional values,

the other side was prepared there.

They had their lawyers.

They had their briefs.

But the more conservative side

sometimes lost their cases

not because they were present, but because they

were not present.

[tense music]

- Lipsic was paid to prepare a legal document,

known as an amicus brief, to try and influence the judge

of the constitutional court.

[tense music]

British journalist Liz McKean interviewed Lipsic

and questioned him about the work

he'd done for the Americans.

- We're talking about an internal matter for Slovakia.

So what's it got to do with American Christians?

- It has nothing to do with American Christians.

- But you've written a brief for the ADF.

- Yes.

- But this is a Slovakian matter.

What on Earth has it got to do with American Christians?

- Well, first, I have worked on few cases

with Alliance Defending Freedom.

And from what I understand--

I am not their employee-- but from what I understand--

- You're paid by them.

- On specific cases?

Of course, yes.

The lawyers-- the lawyers--

- Are they interfering?

Are they meddling in other countries?

- The lawyers that--

oh, I mean, you have a lot of organizations that

are on the other side that are financed by the EU or the U.S.,

for that matter, NGOs.

And that's-- that's-- that's fine.

- Lipsic's work for the Alliance Defending Freedom

proved fruitful, and the referendum

went ahead in early February.

But with a turnout of only 21%,

it was declared invalid and failed.

[tense music]

It's not the only work that full-time MP

Daniel Lipsic has been doing

for this American organization.

We discovered that during 2012,

Lipsic was paid 78,000 euros

by the Alliance Defending Freedom, almost double his

annual salary for being an MP.

[tense music]

- I mean, one year, you earned more from the ADF

than you did from your own parliament.

- That is right.

- Do you think the Slovacs mind?

- Then--

- Would they mind if they knew that the Americans were so

involved in this referendum?

- Again, I don't think the Americans are involved

in the referendum at all.

- Well, they've--

- The-- the--

- --asked you to write a brief for it.

They've involved themselves with the constitutional court.

- They-- they have just asked me to write an amicus brief.

And in fact, it was very transparent.

We had a press conference with a colleague of mine

that has the Vienna office of ADF.

It's not anything behind the curtain at all.

- What we see is that U.S. Christian right organizations

active abroad develop relationships

with local political figures, religious leaders,

and other people who become the representatives of

those organizations locally.

So typically, you will not see an American from the Alliance

Defending Freedom or from the American Center for Law

and Justice or from some of these other organizations

appearing on local television and so forth.

In Nigeria, you will see a Nigerian face.

In Slovakia, you will see a Slovakian face.

- We have discovered that the Alliance Defending Freedom

have been extremely active challenging

human rights legislation in many European countries.

In the course of their work in 2012-'13,

they spent around a million U.S. dollars in Europe alone.

Doctoral researcher Laura Van den Eynde

has been tracking the Alliance Defending Freedom

and has observed a clear growth

in their activities in Europe.

- The strategy of the Alliance Defending Freedom

can be compared to a global domino game.

They were litigating in the U.S.,

and they lost an important case

on LGBT rights, which was citing a European court

of human rights decision.

So they said, well, if that's the game,

we are going to play it, and we are going to be active

in Europe, too, trying to influence cases abroad

in case they would come back home.

I think the U.S. is still their main battle,

and you can really see that in the press release the issue

that they always say on cases in which they're

active outside of the U.S.,

the Alliance Defending Freedom is

interested in this case because it wants to head off

any opportunity for a U.S. activist

to cite a foreign case as a practice to follow.

So you can say that the Alliance Defending Freedom

is prolific and is growing.

- A spokesman for the Alliance Defending Freedom

said, "Mr. Lipsic has had a long and amicable relationship

with the organizers of the initiative

that led to the constitutional referendum in Slovakia.

He was originally contacted because

of his high profile within Slovakia

and his expertise in constitutional law.

Mr. Lipsic's payment, though not moderate,

was commensurate with his political

and legal experience.

The statements you cite are fundamentally

erroneous and disconnected from reality."

[tense music]

Every few years, the World Congress of Families

brings its partners together, most recently at a pro-family

event in Moscow.

Even Yelena Mizulina was there,

the Russian legislator behind the anti-gay propaganda law.

Leading the World Congress of Families' delegation

was its managing director Larry Jacobs.

- Thank you.

Greetings to all of you from--

from myself, as well as from all the pro-family

leaders that I work with from more than 80

countries in the world.

I am so honored to be here among the Russian people

and those that stand for family and life.

- World Congress of Families' leaders have

made frequent trips to Russia meeting

with pro-family legislators.

[tense music]

But as we've seen, there is evidence

that this legislation has triggered

a rise in homophobic attacks.

British journalist Liz MacKean visited the World Congress

of Families at their headquarters in Rockford,

Illinois, where she had arranged

to interview their managing director Larry Jacobs.

- Hi.

- Larry, Liz MacKean.

- Nice to meet you, Liz.

Welcome.

- You, too.

What is your position on gay marriage?

- Our position is consistent with our definition

of the natural family found in the Universal Declaration

of Human Rights, which says that

the-- the family is the natural and fundamental of society.

And if you look at other provisions,

it says that a man and a woman have the right to marry.

- The World Congress of Families

has spoken out in favor of Russia's so-called

pro-family law.

Human Rights Watch found evidence

that it led to a surge in attacks against gays.

Would Jacob see the cause and effect?

- Are you concerned with the Human Rights Watch's findings,

which is that once the law was passed,

it led to an increase in homophobic attacks

against the LGBT community?

- I am concerned, and I--

I deplore any violence against any group, whether it's--

- Do you accept that there was this increase in violence

after the passing of the legislation?

- I don't accept.

I haven't seen that particular report.

So I can't accept something I haven't seen.

- Well, it's bound to happen, isn't it,

if you say that children need protection from

non-traditional relationships?

You're going to make things difficult for that

particular group of people.

- If you're speaking about the particular law in Russia,

it's a civil law.

It's a-- it's a fine.

It's not-- it has no provision for criminal penalties and--

- But people use it as an excuse.

I mean, I met someone-- - That is wrong.

That is wrong.

People should not use laws to protect children,

and they also should not--

if they haven't read the law,

they shouldn't propagandize about the law that doesn't even

use the word homosexuality.

So--

- Non-traditional relationships.

That doesn't mean anything else, does it?

- Yes, it does. It refers to--

- Including homosexuality.

- --bestiality.

No, it can refer to a bunch--

it does-- it's been defined to include

all kinds of other forms.

- So you're bracketing homosexuality with bestiality?

- No, I'm not, absolutely not.

I'm telling you it doesn't use the word "homosexuality."

- The Russian law may not use the word "homosexuality,"

but after it was passed,

Jacobs issued a statement welcoming

the new legislation, in which he makes specific

reference to homosexuality.

[tense music]

- People dislike homosexuals in Russia.

And this legislation has encouraged that atmosphere.

- Have you been to Russia? - Yes, I have.

- How many times?

- I've been several times.

- Well, so have I, and to the extent that any law would be

used to-- to-- to persecute any minority, whether in Russia

or anywhere else, is wrong.

- I spoke to someone who told me

he felt perfectly entitled to attack homosexual men because

of the new law.

I'm obeying the law, he told me.

- Well, he's wrong, and he should be jailed.

And he should be punished. - That isn't a lot of comfort--

- Well--

- --to the people that he's attacking.

- Yeah, so you're suggesting that we should just abandon

every effort to protect children,

every effort to protect marriage because people

will use those laws for wrong.

- Everyone agrees with protecting children.

Why not?

But why does that have to be at the expense

of a group, who have absolutely nothing

to do with harming children?

There are consequences to the law that you support.

Do you accept that?

- We-- it's not our law.

And we--

- Well, that just sounds like you're walking

away from the consequences.

It's one that you've encouraged.

It's one that you've applauded. - We did not encourage.

We didn't lobby. - And now you're walking away.

- We didn't lobby.

- Yes, you've spoken out in front of it in favor of it.

You said that otherwise, it would

imperil children, their physical and moral health.

- After it was passed, we attempted

to clarify and defend the provisions

that protected children.

- But do you still support it?

Because it's led to the persecution of LGBT.

- We support the protection of children.

- Do you accept any responsibility

for the consequences of some of this legislation?

- We don't-- we have no responsibility

for the legislation.

We affirm and celebrate beauty, goodness, and truth,

and that's what families are about.

- We've been tracking the activity of the World Congress

Of Families network across Russia and into Slovakia.

Next, our investigation takes us

to Africa, where in Uganda, associates of the World

Congress of Families have actually

helped draft anti-gay legislation

with terrible consequences.

[upbeat music]

[tense music]

- We must stand for the laws that we have

placed in the courts, that homosexuality is wrong,

and it's evil.

- Yes!

- And it is also illegal!

[all shouting]

- We are saying no to homosexuality.

- In Uganda, homosexuality has been against

the law since the 1950s.

But over the last decade, attempts

have been made to strengthen anti-gay legislation supported

by American Christian evangelists

associated with the World Congress of Families.

American evangelist Pastor Scott

Lively was first invited to Uganda

on a speaking tour in 2002.

- Homosexuality does not benefit the society.

It harms the people that engage in.

It harm-- it harms--

- Lively has been tied to the World Congress

of Families for many years.

He attended a World Congress of Families planning meeting

in Moscow in October 2013.

He has featured on their website's monthly newsletter,

where he was thanked for his contribution

to pro-family causes.

And in 2007,

he appeared as a guest speaker at the official

World Congress of Families' networking event.

Here he is speaking in Uganda in 2009.

- The gay movement is an evil institution that's goal--

the goal of the gay movement is to defeat

the marriage-based society and replace it

with a culture of sexual promiscuity

in which there's no restrictions on sexual conduct.

- Lively then makes a link between homosexuality

and pedophilia.

- Often these are people that were molested themselves.

And they're turning it around, and they're

looking for other people to be able to prey upon

and that they see a child that's from a broken home,

it's like they have a flashing neon sign over their head.

That child is so vulnerable to a man--

a 14-year-old boy for a man to come along and say, you know,

hey, I care about you.

Now usually if I'm in the U.S. and I bring this up

in an audience, and all of a sudden,

there's screams from how dare you say that homosexuality

and pedophilia are equated.

Well, they are equated.

- The strategy thrives on the vilification

of LGBTQ people as fundamental threats to society.

It's a preposterous claim.

But in an attempt to make it credible,

they will tell the big lie and do repeatedly

by presenting the community as threats to children,

sexual predators, as threats to public health,

responsible for HIV.

His defamatory statements really know no bounds.

This is somebody who has shown himself

willing to say anything

in order to engender fear, loathing,

and hatred towards gay people.

And that's the role he plays.

- Homosexuality does not benefit the society.

It harms the people that engage it.

It harms-- it harms the society that embraces it.

Now that said, so we need public policy that

discourages homosexuality.

- Human rights specialist Jonathan Cooper has been

monitoring the effects of anti-gay laws throughout

he world, and he worries about the activities

of Scott Lively.

- The way in which Scott Lively

has encouraged hostility

against the gay and lesbian community

and has targeted the gay and lesbian community in what he's

been saying in Uganda, it's not respectful of international

human rights law.

It's not respectful of that recognition

that human rights law applies to everybody, including

the gay and lesbian community.

He's entitled to express his opinion,

and he's entitled to--

to express his disdain for the gay and lesbian community.

But he can't do it in such a way

that promotes hatred and violence

against that community.

- Scott Lively also addressed the Ugandan parliament.

He was then sent a copy of draft legislation, which

included provision to make homosexual acts

punishable by life imprisonment in some cases

and to make it a crime punishable by prison

not to report people for being gay.

He wrote back to the Ugandan parliament,

advising them on how to take the legislation forward.

The Ugandan Anti-Homosexual Act was finally

passed by parliament in December 2013.

[all shouting]

In the weeks and months that followed,

local activist group SMUG, Sexual Minorities Uganda,

received reports of a sharp increase

in homophobic attacks.

This footage, posted on the internet three days

after the bill was passed, is reportedly of a man in Uganda

being lynched and stoned for being gay.

A large crowd stands by and watches

the man's brutal beating.

It's not known if he survived.

The United Nations has published

two reports looking at the effects

of anti-gay legislation.

The most recent one concluded that there

is a strong connection between discrimination in the law

and incitement to violence.

- Basically what criminalization does and what

these measures that have been proposed by the sort

of the so-called pro-family lobby,

what they do is that they-- they make the gay

and lesbian community outlaws.

They are literally outlaws.

They are outside the protection of the law

under all circumstances.

With these measures, you get a tax on the gay

and lesbian community.

You get extortion.

You get arbitrary detention.

You get all sorts of violence.

People being made homeless, people being fired,

generally creating this dysfunctional society,

which is what they've managed to do.

[tense music]

- Just days after the bill was passed,

Jackson Mocasa and his partner, Kim,

were targeted for being gay.

It began when an angry mob came for them

while they slept.

- Jackson and Kim managed to flee the mob

but were then stopped by police and arrested

for being homosexual.

Whilst in custody, their persecution continued.

- Jackson and Kim were charged with engaging in sex acts

against the order of nature.

Their case was eventually dismissed

due to lack of evidence.

As a direct consequence of the anti-gay law,

Jackson and Kim are now jobless,

have no permanent home,

and have become social pariahs.

- Uganda's new anti-gay law has since been

annulled on a technicality.

But it's recently been announced

that the bill is to be reintroduced to parliament.

[tense music]

Scott Lively is currently facing civil action in America

for crimes against humanity in relation

to his activities in Uganda.

The judge says he has a case to answer.

- There is no question as to Scott Lively's influence

and culpability for the legislation

that was introduced in Uganda.

Scott Lively's influence led to a kind

of public panic, a social panic about homosexuality.

We saw an escalation in death threats.

We saw mob violence against people who are

LGBTI or perceived to be so.

- Scott Lively masterminds his international campaigns

from his base in Massachusetts,

a coffee house that also doubles as his church.

British journalist Liz MacKean arranged to interview him

there in order to challenge him

about his activities in Africa.

Lively would only agree to be interviewed

on the condition

that we didn't edit his answers.

- Liz MacKean.

- Welcome to Holy Grounds Coffee House.

- Thank you very much for asking us.

- Reports from the United Nations,

Amnesty International,

and SMUG, Sexual Minorities Uganda,

all found there to be a strong connection between

anti-gay legislation and a rise

in persecution of LGBT people.

Would Scott Lively accept any role in that?

- In Uganda, there's been a rise

in homophobic attacks since the enactment

of the Anti-Homosexuality Act.

Does that concern you?

- Well, I haven't seen the proof of that.

- Well, the proof has come in a study

from SMUG, an activist group that you know.

- Oh, you mean the homosexual activist movement

itself is testifying to--

to things that advance its own political objectives?

- Amnesty International, the Human Rights Watch,

they've both made studies.

- These are all groups that are very,

very strongly dedicated to the LGBT political goals.

- The UN itself--

this is from 2011--

there's a strong connection between discrimination in law

and practice and incitement to violence

in the name of religion and violence itself.

- I don't accept the authority of the entities

that you're citing.

SMUG, Sexual Minorities Uganda,

is a dishonest advocacy organization

for LGBT rights.

The Human Rights watch, also.

Amnesty International has-- has taken sides on this issue.

They are not impartial.

Even the UN is not impartial on this issue.

- So all these internationally recognized

organizations, you won't accept their findings?

- Not on this particular issue.

Now if they want to talk about farming in Ghana or something

like that, then I will listen to them,

but not on this social issue.

- So you don't see any connection between the sort

of language that you've used about homosexuals

and a climate in which they're more subject to attacks?

- Absolutely not.

I'm gonna get some water.

This coffee is actually not working to--

I have a dry mouth.

- It wasn't surprising that Lively refused

to accept responsibility for the rise

in attacks on gays in Uganda.

But it was unexpected that he would

reject the basic premise of the international

evidence altogether.

Liz MacKean then challenges him

on the inflammatory language

he uses about homosexuals and in particular,

his linking them with pedophilia.

- Let's get down to the specific details.

What specifically am I saying that you

think is inflaming people to go out and bash homosexuals?

- I think an overlap between homosexuality and pedophilia

is highly inflammatory.

- Really?

And that just the fact that--

- Designed to criticize.

Yes, designed to demonize a section.

- Just-- just simply saying that there is a-- that

there's an overlap between homosexuality and pedophilia,

that that's enough to cause, to-- to make me responsible

for someone else who goes out and-- and beats

up a homosexual?

- Do you see no connection at all between what you might say

and how some people might then feel they can behave?

- What I see is your failure to be able

to-- to-- to analyze this topic the way you

would analyze any other topic.

- Homosexuality surely has no more of an overlap

with pedophilia than does heterosexuality.

- Well, it does.

It does. Male--

- Based on what?

- Based on observation, based on history.

- Ah, so based on your observation and your view

of history, you're making what is

a very serious allegation against an entire community

of people.

- No, not against an entire community of people.

- Yes, it is, homosexuality.

- No, I'm talking about a--

a subcategory of male homosexuals, very common.

- Lively didn't accept any responsibility

for the increase in violence against gays.

And he went further, suggesting, in fact,

that homosexuals actually need protecting

from their own behavior.

- If you follow God's standard, if you stay

abstinent until marriage, if you stay

faithful within marriage, you're never

gonna get those diseases.

You are never going to face the kind

of consequences that come from living with sexual promiscuity.

And when someone is sitting on a platform with me, who

is taking the position that there shouldn't be

any restraint, there shouldn't be any regulation

of sexual conduct in the public interest,

that person is-- is in-- in essence,

advocating mass murder.

Look at how many people who have been killed by AIDS.

Look-- think of what-- think of--

let's-- just wait.

Just wait one second.

How many people have died because--

because we didn't take a position

when the AIDS epidemic emerged that discouraged anal sex?

If we, as a society, had just-- had just gone full-court

press and say, don't engage--

heterosexual or homosexual, don't engage in this behavior

because of its risks that those-- most of those people

probably would not be dead today.

But instead, we followed the gay political agenda,

who wanted no restriction on any sexual conduct,

and now we're reaping the consequences for it.

- And you're likening it to mass murder?

- It is mass murder.

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- The World Congress of Families and its associated

organizations have now established

links in more than 80 countries across the globe.

[tense music]

- Marriage is the union of one man and one woman.

- They say they are defending the traditional family.

But we've discovered that the laws that protect some

have eroded the rights of others.

- Homosexuality is wrong, and it's evil.

- And for the individuals we have met,

the world is now a much more fearful place.

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