Original subtitles

Mav in here today. Must be a special day.

Mav don't never show up.

Oh!

Mav come to one session, first season.

[theme music playing]

-Welcome back to Mind the Game. -We're back, baby.

-Opening bottles. -You know it.

We have the privilege of one of the greatest players

in NBA history here today, KD.

-Appreciate you. -[Steve] Welcome.

[LeBron] Appreciate you.

-Appreciate you. Yes, sir. -Yes, sir.

I think, I mean…

While I'm opening this wine, I think the best way to start is, like…

Anything you want to talk about?

[all laugh]

-So we're getting… up. -You think I got enough wine?

This is the place to do that. This will be the place.

Start there, you know.

No, I mean, for…

-[cork pops] -There we go.

-[LeBron] Yes, sir. -Pour that.

But, uh, you know, LeBron is the greatest…

The leading scorer of all time, NBA history.

But I think even you would admit there's things about Kevin's game

you wish you had.

Yeah, for sure.

[Steve] One of the most smoothest, most efficient scorers

maybe we've ever had.

Like, is there anyone that can do it at every level?

Uh, not to the capacity he's done it.

And I was reading a stat earlier. The fact that…

he hasn't… I don't want to speak like you're not here,

but you're so great, I'd like to…

Thank you, brother. Appreciate you.

He hasn't shot under 50% since, like, 2012.

And in a league that doesn't talk about efficiency enough,

because I'm one of those efficiency guys.

Like, I hate going out there, just chucking up shots

or, you know, looking at the box score and I was maybe 8 for 23,

or 9 for 25,

or 6 for 18.

-You're gonna have those nights for sure. -Yeah.

You know, but for the majority of the season,

being efficient, you know, is something I've always

prided myself on.

And this, when it comes to three-level scorer,

three-pointers, midrange,

uh, below the Gary Payton area,

below the Malone area,

and finishing.

It's, um…

We haven't…

We haven't had a scorer as equipped as KD in our league.

-Mm-hmm. -[LeBron] Ever.

Yeah, I mean, add to it pick and roll.

With the ball, without the ball.

-[Kevin] Yeah. -Catch and go.

Transition with the ball.

Catch and shoot, off the move, pindowns.

Nail.

You know, literally there isn't, I don't think, a spot, an action,

or a style of play

that you couldn't…

be yourself, be efficient.

And is that something, like, KD, like you…

Over the years, obviously, I've seen you continue to get better

and get better with your game.

You know, when you first came in, you wasn't much of a pick-and-roll guy.

Just a natural scorer. You know, catch and gos.

Always had the bounce to your game, obviously.

But I feel like over the last, like, five to seven years,

you know, you start handling the ball, pick-and-rolls.

Making decisions, making reads, you know,

and still being able to be the efficient-ass scorer,

the dynamic scorer you've been.

Like, was that conscientious with you,

or is it just like, I want to continue to expand my game?

That was the main thing, wanting to expand my game.

Um, early on when I came into the league, my first…

If I could think about my first 20 games in the league,

I felt like I was just catching and shooting.

A lot of it was catch-and-shoot threes, catch-and-shoot midrange.

I was playing fast.

So you felt it was happening so quick, you just felt comfortable rising up.

That's all I… That was the… That was my game.

Just shoot, you know, at that point.

So that's what I, you know, fell back on when nothing else worked.

I get stopped. I'm not strong enough yet.

Hold me up, I'm just gonna shoot over you.

And then I didn't shoot well my first two months, three months.

Maybe my first six months of the season,

I think I started to figure out the pace of the game.

Understanding the pick-and-roll. I was getting more pindowns.

And when I was coming off pick and rolls early in the season, I was just shooting.

Looking at my teammates' faces, I'm like, "They was open."

-[all laugh] -You know what I'm saying?

So I just started to understand my teammates more and the game more,

and I wanted to be trusted in every situation

on offensive side of the ball.

Coach say…

I didn't want the coach to come back to the huddle.

Steve know. "Which side you want it on?" I'm like, "I don't… It's your team.

Whatever side you want to call this play on,

I gotta be ready to come off this on either angle

and shoot from either side."

So, I never liked being limited that way.

So I always wanted the coach to just use me in any way that he wanted me.

-Anywhere on the floor. -Yeah.

I didn't want him to feel limited with me.

-That's always been my thing. -I think it's funny you say that.

One of the conversations we had previously about,

um, coming to the sideline,

and the coach is afraid to flip the play

because he knows that certain guys can't run it on the opposite side.

And I tested it. Like, that's…

And you can get in practice too.

Like, we can run the same play over and over and over.

And if the coach say, "Okay, let's run it from the left side"

and we've been running from the right side…

-Three dudes are lost. -"What are we doing?"

Then the main guy…

-Cheers. -Cheers. Absolutely. Appreciate you.

And then it's like…

As the best player, or the most efficient scorer,

or the…

You know, who got the best match-up,

whoever you're calling the play for,

it's just like when coach says,

"Oh, we can't do this because he's not strong going left."

Or, "He can't go right."

That's just always… There's something to it.

And it was tough for me to go left sometimes and pull up for the jump shot.

Especially early on in my first few years.

I think I started to understand the footwork, the balance,

what it takes to shoot going right from inside the paint,

free throw line extended,

college three, NBA three, you know?

And that's why…

And that small detail is the reason I think my game is rounded.

You prefer going left?

I actually… Now I do.

-But you started going right? -Yeah.

But this is actually… That's interesting to me, right?

Because it bothered you that you had one side that was weaker than the other.

But statistically, he preferred… And prolific going left.

But you're actually statistically as good or better going right.

Sometimes, that's because people know you want to go left.

But it also proves, like, it's just a habit to go left.

You just prefer… I used to play that way too.

I'd play out of a hesi to the left.

I can still do it to the right, but I was just comfortable.

Do you feel like you got more leverage in your body going left?

It's like… You know, this is a weird one to say,

but when I was in the tenth grade, I sprained my left ankle.

As a right-handed player and a left-handed jumper,

I didn't want to stop playing, so I played limping around for six months.

That ankle's never quite been the same.

So I think, like, pushing off my right became my de facto thing.

-Yeah. -[Steve] If that makes sense.

And so I could do the rhythm going to the right,

but to take it one step farther about me,

but when I went to Phoenix in 2004,

that summer I was like, I can't play this way anymore

where I just go all the way left and pull up right.

And it bothered me, so I spent that summer saying,

"I have to figure this movement pattern out."

Left, hard pull-up.

And it took a summer of, like, every day trying to get the footwork,

the balance, the stability.

Sounds like you did that early in your career.

Yeah, I mean, it's crazy you said that because when I got to Golden State

and we started working out more, you told me that.

And it's always stuck in my mind.

Like, yeah, the defense know if you're going left,

most of the time you're going all the way to the cup.

So that one-two dribble pull-up going left has been, uh, a staple for me.

But it's more so about the pickup of the ball, you know what I'm saying?

Going left.

Sometimes, I try to pick the ball up right here, like my normal shot.

They swiping that down.

Instead of, we did this a lot too,

I start, you know, changing my pickups

and I'm shooting the ball this way now.

So a lot of that stuff is just adjustments to how physical the defense was

and, you know, me just wanting to get shots off.

But this… You make it sound simple.

The reason he's able to do that, take the ball up in different areas,

is because especially at your size,

your balance is so good.

-Your feet are so good. -That's where it all starts. Yeah.

He gets on balance so he still has legs under him,

so it doesn't matter if he brings it up normal,

he brings it up here, there.

He's always still got legs to get under his shot

and get that thing up in the air.

That's, like, those are the little bits that people don't understand

that you have to work every day, getting down, getting deeper,

getting in a position to have your legs under you.

Yeah, I mean, just being able to understand

the power that you have under you,

and your legs, and letting that flow through your whole body

to get to your jump shot.

It'd take a while for you to understand how much power you really have,

but the lower you play,

the harder you dribble the ball back up into your pocket,

all that small stuff matters if you want to be a good shooter.

Right. And it makes sense.

All the detail that you're talking about is, you know,

when we talk about efficiency, you know?

And there's only been a small select few guys who do this in NBA history.

The 90-50-40 club.

Or 50-40-90, however you want to break it down.

You've done it twice. You've done it twice.

And it was actually ten years apart from when you did…

I think the first time you did it was in '13, I believe.

-The last time was '23. -Yup.

But you want to know who's actually the leader in the 50-40-90 club?

-I think this guy. What was it, four? -Four.

-I feel like I missed, like, three… -[laughs]

-You know what? That's funny. -You probably have too.

We were talking about it.

My first year with the Lakers, I was fucking 100 years old.

But… no offense, but…

[laughs]

But I think I missed it by a layup.

Like one field goal.

Man. And that stings every time.

And I think earlier in my career, like, I shot 8-9-7 from the line.

You think back, it's one or two free throws.

-After a whole season? -[LeBron and Kevin] That's crazy.

I don't think about the four times, I think about the two times…

-Right there, you're like… -Yeah.

How many more times were you closer to… That you can remember off the top?

I think it was another time in Brooklyn where I was like 39% from the three

going into the last game.

I had to make, like, four out of six.

I was like one for eight. I was just…

[all laugh]

And I was thinking about it too. I wanted it so bad.

And then it's just like…

That's another part of the mental game. You could get in your own way…

-[LeBron] Yeah, for sure. -thinking too much about stuff.

I remember that one time in Brooklyn, I think there was another time in OKC,

uh, where I think it was a free throw that I might have missed.

I was like 88, 87 for the year, and…

Free throws, for a shooter of your caliber,

the free throw drives you crazy, right?

It drives you crazy.

I think we might have talked about it. I was like 84 this year.

Like, 83, 82 at one point this year. I was just…

And that's been bothering me, mentally,

-Wanna kick the ball out of the gym. -more than anything, man.

Like, being over 90% is key for me.

But, so, mid-80s is just not it.

Yeah, I can relate to that.

-[all laugh] -What's your career high?

From the free throw line?

Yeah, I think I was career high this year. I was almost at 80.

79?

I'm rounding my… off. 80.

But the three-ball was at what?

My career high for my three was 41, I think, last year.

I think last year…

Definitely the second half of your career, your three-ball's gone up.

Just being more, like, efficient. Just being more efficient with it too.

I think your middy two this year stood out even more.

I feel like you always hit it, but I think you went to it more this year.

-And you shot it from deeper this year. -Yeah.

-[Kevin] You think so? -I think so.

But it's something I still… I…

To be honest, it's something I haven't been able to master in my career.

Um, I work on it.

-Improved a lot, though. -Improved, yeah.

But, like, you know, when you talk about going left

and then going right and being efficient.

You know, going left with my middy,

I feel really effective with that.

I feel like I got great balance with it.

I feel like you're talking about the speed of how you pick the ball up

after it comes off the ground and you know where the pocket is.

You know exactly how to get it back to that pocket, you know.

And I know I can go… Literally, I can go straight up and down going left.

I can fade out, you know.

It's just all the power is over there.

Going right has always been a little like, you know,

sometimes my balance is off.

Sometimes I don't know if I should fade on the shot

or go straight up and down.

And it's always kind of fucked with me mentally.

Even though I work on all of them, you know.

But obviously, when you get into the fray, you don't want the defense to dictate

what you want to do, obviously.

But it's like getting that pocket that you were saying.

Like, the one person that is unbelievable going right with his pocket,

no matter where he is, is Chris Paul.

-[Kevin] Like, he can almost shoot. -Yeah, he can… He can do…

He do all this without even dribbling and keep it,

and then just shoot it from here.

[Steve] Triple threat or off the dribble, and it gives him that natural little fade

I can relate to because you need that few little inches to get it over the…

-Right. -Know what I mean?

[theme music playing]

Do you feel like if you take midrange, you're settling?

-Like, throughout your career? -Yeah, for sure.

I mean, especially my… I mean, okay, my first…

fourteen, 15 years,

like, there was no need for me to take a lot of midrange, bro.

I saw a clip of him when I was doing research for this

take off from, like, I don't know, man.

It was like near the free throw line.

And, like, the velocity he was traveling at.

I was like, "What in the world was that?"

[Kevin] And Portland…

[LeBron] That also comes from my Little League coach too.

Like, my Little League coach and high school coach,

they always talking about, "Don't settle. Stop settling."

Like, and then you get people in the crowd who obviously don't know basketball

like we know basketball.

-And they tell you to dunk everything. -Everything.

Dunk everything. Get to the hole and dunk everything.

There's people in NBA crowds that do that still.

Dunk everything.

They get disappointed.

You know, yeah, so…

But I felt like putting pressure…

You know, when I entered the league in '03,

you know, it was… I definitely shot a little bit more midrange my rookie year

-because there was no spacing. -No spacing.

-[Kevin] Exactly. -I was coming off floppies.

My first basket ever scored in the NBA is off a floppy action.

LeBron and floppy is hilarious.

Fade to the corner, shooting a jumper from the short corner.

I felt like that first stint in Cleveland, like…

The J was… because it was hitting net. All net.

A lot of your J's was hitting all net.

And then you had the confidence to shoot the…

Like you say, you had to take them shots.

But once you got to Miami,

I just feel like the floor was so much space

with Bosh shooting the three.

Yeah.

You had more shooters around you. It's like, why settle?

When we played y'all, I'm like,

I don't want to give him his middy, but like,

there's no way I could just stop this man, you know what I'm saying?

-Getting to that cup. -Momentum.

So I understand. It's that mental part of like,

"All right, what do I do?"

Especially when we got so much responsibility.

-[LeBron] Yeah, for sure. -As scorers, as initiators.

It's tough to figure out exactly how you're gonna approach it sometimes.

But that goes to both of you being about efficiency, right?

You don't feel good if you have a…

No.

…high-volume night and didn't make shots.

That's why you guys prepare the way you prepare.

But there's a stat here, 2021/22.

We were together.

58% from three to ten feet.

58% from 10 to 16 feet.

Sixteen feet to the three-point line: 71%.

Unless the Googles are wrong.

-That's crazy. -71% from 16 to 3.

-Like, that's… -I mean, that's insane.

I didn't even realize.

But 10 to 16 at 58?

-That's not in an empty gym. -Right, right.

Like, that's a lot of homework.

It's a few guys in our league.

It's a few guys. Not a lot.

It's a few guys in our league that you believe

every time they shoot the ball it's going in.

Right.

And KD's one of those guys. It is…

-That's a lot of pressure, boy. -No, it is. It is.

Listen, when you shoot the ball, when Steph shoot the ball,

if Steph get a look, you don't think he's gonna miss.

-I think Shai is at that point too. -Shai's at that point too.

Especially in the middies.

Every time he shoot, I think it's going in.

Yeah, especially…

Fucking, his rhythm is so good.

Quietly, in the midrange, I think Kawhi's like that too.

[LeBron] Kawhi's like that too.

[Kevin] Kawhi's like that for sure.

I don't care if he miss ten in a row. Every shot--

Yeah. Yeah.

Especially in that midrange area.

Even his threes. His threes is,

I think his midrange is above his threes, but he's still a good shooter.

Yeah. Yeah.

But that midrange area, I mean, there's certain guys that raise up

and get to their spot, you know exactly they planned on doing that.

Shai's one of those guys in today's league.

I even like, um,

I even like what Julius Randle did from the midrange.

Right. The best I've seen him play.

That's the best I seen him shoot the ball. The confidence he has.

So I think the midrange game's coming back for sure.

So that's the conversation right there,

you know, because analytics, all these analytic departments right now

are saying layups and threes, free throws, layups and threes.

But we're watching the MVP of our league right now

pretty much dominating through the midrange, you know?

So and in the postseason, where the game changes.

The physicality ramps up.

You're allowed to bump and grab and hold a little bit more.

You know, like ultimately, it's like, get to your spot

and get a bucket, you know?

You don't have time to be thinking about,

"Okay, well, if I don't shoot this three, you know,

the analytic department coming downstairs the next day saying,

okay, well, we take too many twos."

Like, this is win or die, you know?

Again, I unders… And…

And I understand the balance between having to get up a lot of threes.

But I believe you can't tell you, Luka or Austin Reaves,

"Don't play your game and take those shots in the midrange."

Or, "Just be you."

Certain guys, though.

Oh, for sure.

You know what I'm saying? Who need to rely on a system of the team,

who can't create on their own.

Who can't create those shots on their own.

They need to shoot more threes.

So I remember it was in a game against Cleveland,

and Georges Niang, he like to talk a lot.

I love Georges, but he talk a lot of…

And he telling me,

I had a couple midranges in a row.

We down, like, 15. He's like, "You need to shoot more threes."

I said, "No, these dudes around me need to shoot more threes.

-I need to play my game." -Right.

You know what I'm saying? Because if I get into this paint,

because y'all gonna collapse on this midrange and I kick out to one of them,

I'm expecting them to shoot the three, not dribble into a midrange.

-That don't make no sense. -Right.

But the best players on the team, you can't turn them into robots.

You're exactly right.

So we did a whole episode on this.

The midrange has never been more important.

It just has to come from the right dudes.

-Exactly. -The court is spaced now

by the role players.

Exactly.

They're trying to take away threes and layups.

So the star has to be able to make midrange shots,

or the team's not gonna be able to score.

That simple.

They have to be able to loosen the defense.

So I think the analytics community would agree with that too.

Yeah, they would.

It's really just, "We don't want players X, Y and Z taking a bunch of midrange."

Because the midrange, I believe, is if you can't find a good shot,

we should look for the good shots early.

The threes.

-Attack the paint. -Attack the paint.

Try to get layups. Try to get threes.

When it's five, six seconds on the clock, get a ball to the best player.

And if he shoot a midrange at that point, then he shoot a midrange.

But we not gonna waste the clock trying to look for a three.

Two seconds on the clock and we're giving it to, uh…

Why are you pointing at me?

Dorian Finney-Smith with two seconds on the clock to make a three.

That's not what we, or more so,

that's not… I mean, they can hit it for sure.

But it's not a sustainable offense for us going forward.

What you're also saying is,

you pass up a good midrange shot to get a worse shot.

-Exactly. -So there's a balance there.

-Exactly. -So I want to touch on the topic

because you've been in a lot of different situations.

Like, you come into the league.

Like you said, when you was in Seattle early on.

You know, the early days, you said, "I was just shooting catch-and-shoot two,

catch-and-shoot threes."

That's what I was comfortable with.

-Probably a lot of twos. -Yeah, a lot of twos.

Running floppy actions, things of that nature.

And obviously, you grew into your own, you know, in OKC days.

You know, you started to… this is how I'm gonna make my mark.

MVP of the league, doing your things.

You know, how was the transition, though, when you went to Golden State

to now playing in their, you know, split game action?

You know, let's get the ball moving.

You still having the freedom to do what the hell you do.

But how much of an adjustment was it for you?

It was pretty easy because up until, let's say, James got traded,

so 2013 to 2016,

I feel like those were the only years

I was playing like point forward in my whole life.

The rest of the time, I'm playing off my teammates.

I might mix it up a little, get off the rebound and push.

-Yeah. -But for the most part,

I've been playing off my teammates up until then.

You know, to that whole time period.

So it was easy for me to come off a pindown.

It's hard for me to have to dribble through three or four guys

and pull up over two dudes with a fadeaway.

Like you said, we want to be efficient.

Playing off your team, that's the easiest way to be efficient.

I was getting more backdoor cuts, more transition layups

on top of the ISOs,

on top of the catch-and-shoot threes.

So my game was way more well-rounded in scoring.

And it was easier and way more efficient that way.

But I always knew how to play with my teammates,

play off my teammates.

And the art of scoring is getting the easy points.

I always knew that, especially in transition.

Hmm. It's interesting, you think about that hard trade.

You know, it was kind of a decision of the salary cap.

Serge, kind of a stretch four, five,

James Harden.

And James goes on to be one of the best players of all time.

Yeah.

How do you feel looking back?

I know it's easy now to be like, "Yeah, we lost James Harden."

It's a different era.

I mean, I think after a team that,

I think we over…

I think we exceeded expectations with that team.

And when you reach the Finals and you go through a run like that so quick,

I don't think a GM or owner was ready for that.

-Hmm. -You know?

So you expecting a team that's 22, 23 to, you know…

-So you sped up the timeline too fast. -We sped up the timeline, all of us.

Each individual player.

Serge, he came out of nowhere.

He came out here being the best shot blocker in the league.

I'm averaging 30 at 21 years old.

Russell was 22 years old, was an All-Star.

James, Sixth Man at 20.

Like, so we exceeded the timeline, so they wasn't ready for that.

And that's just my theory.

I don't know exactly what Sam was thinking.

But my theory is, I don't think they were ready, exactly,

for us to be contenders every year.

So since we reached the Finals, you're supposed to upgrade

and fine-tune and make changes around instead of,

you can't just pull one of the key figures of your team, you know,

off the team and expect us to continue what we was doing.

So I just think they were kind of shocked at how fast we,

how good we got so fast.

And…

you know, sometimes you get confused.

And then on top of that, Sam Presti was 30-something years old.

He was young. Everybody was young trying to figure stuff out.

Trying to understand what this landscape was.

It was just, yeah, it was just…

-[Steve] Too fast. -But it was beautiful.

Yeah, it was too fast. It was just we were ahead of our time.

Everything happened too quickly, and…

Yeah, because you went from coming into the league and being like,

"I can't do anything. I just got to rise up and shoot"

to second in MVP voting at 21.

First Team on the NBA at 21.

Like, doing things at 20, 21.

Not just me, but everybody on our team.

Different skills.

Even our coaches.

Scott Brooks, that was his first… He was the Coach of the Year.

So everybody was doing things,

and Scott was our interim.

So I didn't…

You know, probably didn't think that Scott was gonna be there that long

after being the interim.

So we all exceeded expectations,

and, um, you need a lot.

You know, you got to spend money if you want to be in contention every year.

I don't think they was ready for that just yet.

But that prepared them for what they got now.

I was just gonna say, he's getting a chance to run it back.

-Exactly. -He's got this incredible plan.

He's been obviously one of the top GMs in the league for a while.

-Exactly. -But he's got this war chest too.

And people, I think,

And like, you hear it around the deadline. People are like, "Make a big trade."

Be patient, man.

I'd like to get your thoughts on this.

Uh, OKC wins this year.

That's a problem for the league.

Yeah, it is.

It's a problem. Those guys are all young dudes.

There's few teams that would have to make big upgrades

to compete on a year-to-year basis with this team

for the next four, five, six, seven, eight years.

The only thing OKC got to worry about is the cap.

Mm-hmm.

The second apron, are they gonna go into the apron?

True, but even with that, they have so many picks

that they can try to use that versatility to stay under the second apron

-and still be just as… -Got a lot.

But it comes to two guys, like, for real. Three guys.

-The rest of these dudes, they can be… -Interchangeable.

You know, Shai's gonna be that guy for the rest of his career.

What is Jaylin Williams and Chet gonna be, you know what I'm saying?

Of course they're playing great right now.

But those three guys got to keep at, I mean, Shai's already at that level.

But those two guys got to keep getting better.

I mean, that's just the facts of it.

Just be more consistent.

-Right. -You know, I think they will.

But that's really what it is for them.

I mean, the salary cap, I think they'll pay for…

-Sure. -[Kevin] They know they're gonna continue.

They know they got a great team, something special ahead of them.

But more than anything, those two guys got to keep stepping up

and become perennial All-Stars, no-doubt All-Stars every year

without the benefit of having a good team.

Right, the 70-win team gets the All-Stars.

Yeah, you just got to be an All-Star flat out because you're better.

And also to the last thing, too.

I mean, they're gonna be great for years to come.

But also too, like, you know, the, the…

Now you go from, you know, doing the hunting

to now being the hunted as well, if they win it all.

It's a different dynamic as well.

I mean, we've both been there.

Understanding, like, you know, once you win it,

you know, because you've been trying to get there so… you know,

everything is geared toward "we want to be the next champion."

And then when you get there, now everybody else is,

all 29 teams is now, like, how do we dethrone them?

So it's a different mindset as well.

And to see, let's see if they was to win it, they'll want to, you know…

Completely agree.

But on the flip side, they give away games currently.

They have a great chance. They've given away games they won't in the future.

No, I think they're gonna continue to hunt everybody.

-That's what they… -You think that's their landscape.

-That's what their identity's been… -Pack of dogs.

You know, this has been cultivating since Shai got traded there for PG.

All them dudes been there. Dort.

Uh, I mean, Jaylin Williams came a couple years after that.

But he'd been there, you know what I'm saying?

So those guys got a solid core of dudes and their foundation comes from…

We coming after y'all.

So, you know, and I like the coach's mentality.

Yeah. He be over there chillin'.

-He don't say nothing. He just… -He be over there chillin'.

Stoic individual. I just think they got a beautiful thing going,

and I think that what we created early on in OKC

has just prepared everybody in OKC for what this is like, you know?

-We all learned from that. -Handle it the second time around.

Yeah. It's been nine, ten years, almost.

So they've been through different iterations of the Thunder.

Melo, uh…

-And CP, yeah. -…Russ.

PG, then you got CP.

So they've been through different iterations with great players.

And they understand developing a great player

from a 19-year-old into being an MVP.

-Picking them, drafting them. -Drafting them. Trading for them.

-Developing. -So they done been through everything.

Being a, uh,

even though we were the Seattle Sonics,

we were an expansion franchise.

So, you know, they understand everything

from building up from the ground up to where they are now.

So, I mean, we all could see this coming with this team.

-Yeah. -Yeah. Amazing squad.

[theme music playing]

We had a talk recently about where the game's going.

Love to hear your perspective.

But the Finals, to me, is a little bit of a look into possibilities.

OKC defensively.

You know, pack the paint. Long athletes.

Keep you out of the rim.

Flying back out of shooters with athleticism.

Switchable players.

On the other hand you have Indiana, who plays like this beautiful chaos

where from the free throw line up,

there's blur screens, there's pitches.

Guard-to-guard pitches.

There's flares while an action's going 21 on this side, flare on that side.

All this kind of madness.

We've become accustomed to trying to keep the floor spaced.

They're flying guys in and out to try to move the help.

No, yeah.

Tell me where you think the game's going from the profile of a player,

but also like strategically both sides of the ball.

Strategically as a team, we've come into organized,

random basketball.

I always say jazz. You know, you play off each other, right?

On both ends, because you look at OKC on their defense.

I watched Shai or Jaylin Williams get beat off the dribble.

And then Lu Dort in the corner, he's just in regular help.

But if he get beat off that dribble, he's coming over to take that drive.

-And then here comes Jaylin Williams. -Just going straight corner.

They do that all around the court, and then on top of that,

they got good one-on-one defense.

But they are in tandem regardless without even being a scheme.

-It's just natural. -Kind of random at that end.

-Reading each other. -Exactly.

-Which not every team can do. -No, it's hard to do that.

Which is the same thing Indy is doing offensively.

And that's how I feel the game is flowing.

Because Indy will, I haven't s...

all I've seen is 77 from them.

And then, like you said, quick action.

Yeah, 21.

Pitch up, slip out.

-Yeah. -Big set a screen.

But when it's…

Bring it out the net, inbound the ball, walking it up.

All I've really seen from them is 77.

And then drive and kick, pick and pop.

-Get into the blender. -Just get into the blender early.

So I think that's where the league's going,

whereas, you know, about to run,

three pin… like, this guy about to run from the wing,

under three pindowns underneath the baseline.

Why nobody else moving?

And you go, like, the defense is not letting you do that.

Not letting you do that. It's got to be random.

It has to be practiced, though, every day.

Right. That's what fans I don't think understand.

"Why aren't they running anything?" If they run, they're switching everything.

-You're back to ISO. -Exactly.

So how do they know what to do? Well, we do it 5 and 0 every day.

Talk through it, see it on the film. What was your decision here?

Yeah, I think it's great coaching too.

Like, you know, Rick knows his personnel.

His personnel, how his team is built, is not isolation guys

that can beat you off the bounce every possession

or is not gonna be… PPR is gonna be so low.

You know, he knows that if we could get one trigger,

which now creates the blender, now that works for our team, you know?

It's not gonna be run a 77, okay?

Now they done switched, okay?

Everybody get flat.

Let me back up, back up, back up.

And then try to go ISO.

Yeah, we know Tyrese can beat the five off the dribble.

We know that. Bennedict Mathurin, we know he can do it from time to time.

But for their team, for their PPR to be 120 like we've been seeing,

it's not gonna be a steady diet of isolation,

no matter which action they run.

So like you're saying, the blur screens, the touch screens,

the flare screens on the opposite side, the pitch.

You know, we're running DHO slip-out, you know?

The short rolls to the pops on Myles Turner.

They… and it's…

It is so not random.

-[Steve] Right. -Everyone thinks it's random.

It's practice, it's practice,

but it's just like…

-Organized chaos. -Yeah, organized chaos.

It's not scripted in the game, but in practice,

you could tell that they're on the same page.

It's almost like nonverbal.

You see, and, you know, being in the Finals,

a lot of times you're not talking a lot to your teammates.

You know what you're supposed to be doing.

You're out there really focused on being the best that you can

and being at your highest level.

These guys don't feel like… they have a dialogue, obviously,

but they're not walking each other through everything.

They just read and react off one another,

and that's from good coaching, good practicing,

holding each other accountable throughout the season, watching film.

Like, all that stuff matters that the outside world doesn't understand.

They just, like…

What are they doing? It's chaos.

KD and Book, and I just throw the ball and y'all just go for it.

I mean, y'all supposed to just beat everybody

because y'all just got that talent.

It's like, you got to cultivate a lot of stuff from day one in training camp

and on who you want to be.

And you can tell that both of these teams have been doing that for two, three years.

Yeah, for sure.

A big, underrated part of their offensive identity

is they change in so quick, they create mismatches off the change.

Fast. Even on the make.

Yeah, exactly. Siakam's down on a guard.

Oh, go to the post.

We got the center up on Hali or bring him into the action.

What I also like is if Hali gets the center,

they don't always spread.

They keep playing. Next guy comes in, they're not afraid.

They want you to make mistakes. They want it to keep moving.

Because I think it's the ethos. It slows them down.

And now they're not playing their game if they get spread.

You always can go, but we're not gonna hold the game up.

Yeah.

I mean, just to piggyback what you just said, Steve,

you know, you get the five switched onto you,

you know, Hali knows he can beat him.

You know, he knows he has the advantage, I would say.

But how many times is the five guarding the ball

when a pick and roll happens?

They don't know how to look.

He doesn't know what's going on.

You run past him, touch him on the hip, he's like,

"What the hell's going on?" They fuck up the confusion.

And we saw that in the Knicks series. We saw a lot with KAT.

They was doing that, KAT would back up, and nobody was on the ball,

-and Hali's shooting the three. -Yep.

And to add to it, they'll bring even the three in.

-It might be Anunoby, a great defender. -Right.

But he's got KAT, so they might just blur screen with Anunoby.

-He's like, "Well, I got to help." -Right, right.

Then Nesmith's standing wide open because they're creating confusion.

They're going to… if you are not aware on the defensive side of the ball,

they're gonna to attack you from the first possession to the last.

And I think that's the new brand of ball. It's like, who is the weak guy out here?

And it's not just the guy that can't guard one-on-one.

It's like, if you can't guard a pick and roll, a pindown,

we're attacking every part of your defense.

-If you're a horrible low man. -Yeah, exactly.

We're gonna run pick and rolls opposite of you.

We know you ain't gonna tag. Everything.

The league's about exposing now.

Yeah, but I would also add to it, like, we were exposing the guy on the ball.

Now I think these teams are starting to expose the help

by moving the help.

We'll cut and replace. We'll blur screen. We'll flare on the weak side.

So the help's moving instead of the help…

We like, on offensively, we've liked for a period of time,

just to know where the guys are.

Stay spaced, be in your spot. They're getting smarter.

They're getting smarter at scheming. They're in the gaps, rotating,

reading off each other.

So then when you start moving around, whose help is that?

So I think that's the era we're starting to get into offensively.

Would you say defenses have gotten better?

More creative?

No, not in a sense, because I don't want to say more creative

because it's a switch league now.

Everyone wants to switch.

Um, and to be honest,

the only way that you could just switch

is you have to have the personnel to do it.

You know, but I think the creativity is happening like, you know.

And New York did a good job of this.

Like, sometimes when Jaylen Brunson was getting switched off on Siakam,

they was doing a great job of kicking him out, you know.

-Especially on the post. -Yeah, on the post.

That's been communicated a lot better, like kicking the small guy out,

telling him to go weak side corner or find somebody on the weak side

because there's not too many guys that can actually make the pass.

Once the switch happens, he rolls them down

and he can fire it weak side to get the shot.

There's not many guys in our league that can make that.

So I think as far as the creativity in that range

has gotten better.

But defense has always boiled down to just, like, fucking talking.

Yeah.

You can make up a lot of shit by talking.

I would almost flip it. It's not the defense,

maybe defense is involved, not involved. Offense should challenge them more.

Yeah, just challenge them more.

-Definitely. -New solutions.

Playing fast. Shooting the ball from farther.

Like, you know, you watch clips from 15, 20 years ago.

Everybody's inside the three-point line.

-Everybody. -Yeah, 15, 20 years ago.

Shit, I was in the league.

I thought you were about to say some shit about the '90s.

-Only one of us was there. -I'm done with the '90s!

That team, that '90s bled into the early 2000s.

-It did. -That was the same type of ball.

There's probably one three-point shooter on every team.

By the way, if that. If that.

That's why Sacramento was so damn good.

-They had a lot ahead of their time. -Yeah, they were ahead of their time.

Bib was shooting the three. Stojaković was shooting the three.

Bobby Jackson come off the bench shooting the three.

Vlade from time to time would pop. Brad Miller would pop.

C-Webb used to pop a little bit. That's what made them so damn dynamic.

Because they were so far ahead of their time.

And then they showed up.

And when they showed up, it just changed the game.

Well, Nellie too, in Dallas, y'all played that way.

He liked to play fast,

but he also liked to play two or three off the elbow.

Because in the elbow, the weak side is in a bind, right?

Like, and that's why we play delay now.

The ball's a lot of five-outs.

But on the elbow, if you're the weak side, he can still hit your guy.

So he always knew to put the pressure on you.

So if you want to come, that's a one pass,

where if it's on the wing, it's got to be a swing swing or a skip.

So I think he used to try to distort the defense like that.

But even those Suns teams,

like, we think about them now, played so fast and shot a bunch of threes.

-Not true. Not true. -We talked about it, yeah.

We… I can't remember what year, we beat the Spurs in San Antonio

to tie the series 2-2.

I think it might have been the game Robert Horry bodychecked me.

If it was that game, we made five threes.

Five. And we're supposed to be a run-and-gun team, right?

Like, we should have shot 35 threes or 40 threes.

So we look back with tinted glasses, right?

Like, it's a slow evolution.

Now I feel things are starting to change quickly.

-Mm-hmm. -It's like the tech industry, almost.

-There's so much information. -It's all personnel too.

Just like the tech industry, some people try it

and they can't even get to that capacity.

They don't have the resources.

You got to have the personnel in our league too.

As much as it's a copycat league

and as much as we talk about three-point shooting, whatever the case,

you're still…

Like, if you're a team shooting 28% from the three-point line

throughout the season, that don't mean take more threes.

Yeah, straight up, straight up.

-Like, what are we doing? -I mean…

But, I mean, that's the solution.

That's what they tell… I get it.

More threes. If we're shooting 28 threes on a game,

that's not enough.

No, it's not enough. Oh, no, that ain't enough.

Oh, they get mad if you below 35, 40.

Man, so do you think the profile of players changed?

Like, I've been thinking.

I don't know if the 6'2"-and-under guard is, is…

at a premium no more as a starter.

Maybe as a backup.

But you have to be a…

We just talked about this the last…

-It's gotten compressed. -It has.

Right? It's compressed.

It's that, like, either Donovan Mitchell, Jrue Holiday 6'3" or 6'4"…

-Lu Dort. Yeah. -Lu Dort. Or it's…

Nah, you got to be…

You can't get picked on defense. That's the thing.

Because we're playing such a pick-on game that they would literally,

if you can't guard, they will bring you up every play.

Yeah. Every play.

If you're 6 foot, 6'1" and you're not a bulldog like a Davion Mitchell,

Jrue Holiday on the defense side,

or you're not an offensive flat-out savant like Kyrie,

where you can score on, do seven feet easily in ISO,

then I just can't see it.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, like for me, it's, uh,

I'm interested in Darius Garland.

Like, he's an amazing basketball player.

I think his value,

like, we don't talk about him as, like, this amazing, like,

because the era.

If he played in any other era, I think he would have been…

His value would be through the roof.

Like, he's that skilled. He's got every shot. He can play-make.

But it's an era where it's like, okay, we also have to help

that dude out defensively all the time.

That's an example because he's such a good basketball player.

Right. He's so tough.

I mean, yeah, he is.

And it's like…

But the defensive side of the ball is where…

you know, people will attack him.

If you want a chance to beat the Cleveland Cavaliers,

you are going at Darius Garland most of the time on the defensive side.

That's not saying he's gonna score…

He's not a terrible defender.

He's just small.

He's just 6'1", 6'2" sometimes.

And when you got your… nowadays it's,

I mean, offensives are giving the ball to their best player.

I don't care if you're 6'9", 6'10".

If you're out on that perimeter,

Paolo up there, bring up Darius Garland.

If you don't have that built in…

Cleveland did a good job of getting in that help.

Yeah.

But if you don't have that around those guards at their sides,

it's gonna be tough.

Yeah, because now five guys outside the three-point line.

If he played 10, 15 years ago and beyond,

you know, six out of ten dudes are inside the three-point line.

-Exactly. -[Steve] You got help right there.

That makes defense easier for everybody.

It's harder for some of the best defenders to guard with all of this space.

I heard you say with JJ on a podcast,

that it was harder to get 30 at the start of your career

because of spacing.

Definitely, man, it was.

I mean, you got two dudes at the box.

A bunch of power forwards in the league.

Most of the time, the whole league running floppy.

That's the go-to set.

So we got four guys or eight guys inside the three-point line.

-Right in front of the basket. -All they do is lift, upper body.

[laughing] Yeah.

Up top, not a game.

They weren't working on their legs back then.

-They're all just pushing and shoving. -Pushing and shoving.

It's all strong men.

Like Gold's Gym.

[theme music playing]

When you think back to our time in Brooklyn,

what do you think of?

Man…

Tell him about the three-point line tweak.

Some people are saying take the corner three out.

-Oh, my gosh. -Like, that would be…

That is just…

-What are we doing? -Disrespecting the whole game.

So you know when the three-point curve, it just goes out of bounds.

[all laugh]

And there's no three-point…

-[laughs] -Long twos.

And there's no three-point line at all.

So if you catch it in the corner, long two. It's just a super long two.

[Kevin] You in the dunker.

You can imagine analytics when we have big play defense.

It'll be like three guys on the top,

-two guys... -Force the long two.

-Just force the long two. -No one's covering the corners.

-No one covered the long two. -Destroy the game.