Original subtitles

[theme music]

What's up?

-Steve! What's up, baby? -King James, what's going on?

-[LeBron laughing] -How's summer going? How's the fam?

My youngest son just graduated last week.

-So... -How was it?

I embarrassed him when he came off the stage,

and I loved it.

Spent time with my youngest daughter.

She playing summer volleyball.

She have any tournaments?

They played a tournament last weekend down in Anaheim, so...

-You see any other NBA players down there? -Nope, I haven't seen any yet.

I used to see a few. Timmy Duncan with his hat...

-Yeah. -...yanked down real low.

[both laughing]

[theme music]

Mind the Game.

Mind the Game, we back, baby. Let's do it.

-Great to be back. -Yes, sir.

I was thinking you tweeted the other day about Hali.

Posted about Hali about--

-[LeBron] Yeah, man. -[Steve] How well he's playing

the overrated stuff, maybe just start there, like--

Please, let's absolutely start there.

Love to hear, you know, first,

maybe before we even get into what he's doing,

how he's playing, and breaking him down a little bit,

you spent part of the summer with him,

a good chunk of the summer with him at the Olympics.

He didn't play much, but I'm sure he soaked up a lot of incredible insight.

What was your takeaways from the time you spent with him?

Just a great person, man. Great kid.

I mean, you know, didn't matter if he was playing

or if he got the opportunity,

he was the same guy every single day, you know,

and you could see that his mainframe

was soaking in all the knowledge and the details, you know,

being around all of us, you know?

And he was just super appreciative every single day.

Never changed his mood.

When we had practices, we were doing five-on-five,

and you know, the practice

where some of the older guys didn't go that day,

he was ready to go.

If it was a moment in the game where he was called,

he was ready to go, but just a great kid,

like, every single day, you know, was the same person,

joking, laughing, high-spirited, you know,

someone that you now, you know, you can--

you look at what's going on with the Pacers

throughout the regular season,

and now, the postseason, you get it,

you get why they are the team they are.

And it starts with the head of the snake, we know that.

And that's what Hali, I mean, you know?

You can gravitate and bring energy and love

and would run through a wall for certain guys.

And he's a guy that you would do that for

just because of how he plays the game,

how he, you know, how, you know?

I've seen a couple guys was like, "You know, well,

they're going into a hostile environment,

he shouldn't have a smile on his face."

I'm like, "This is who he is."

Like, why are we always trying to change people

because of this is what you say, you know, the narrative,

or this guy should look like this, or this guy should...

Everyone's preparation is different, everybody is different,

but Hali is one of them ones, you know?

And you know, the success is not happening

just because it just came out the blue.

It's happening because of Hali and that team.

They're built perfectly for that group.

Right, yeah, they built an incredible identity.

But it's interesting to hear you say, like,

how kinda, like, upbeat he is,

how positive he is, right?

Like, that is infectious, as you know.

Like, coming in every day, we play in the league,

like, they're probably on game almost a hundred right now, right?

Including the preseason.

So, like, that infectious kind of positivity

coming from your leader, the head of the snake,

like, that results in more possession,

you know, better possessions,

-wins, losses. -Yeah, for sure.

Good practice days instead of bad, you know?

Not everyone's the same, so,

but for that team, an upbeat, up-tempo team,

a team that doesn't necessarily have that,

"We're going to this guy, we're gonna create isos."

-Right. -"We're gonna spread the floor."

You know, he's the head of the snake, clearly,

but that upbeat, positive attitude.

The other thing that goes with it, for me,

that's I think cool and fascinating about his personality

is, like, not afraid to talk that shit.

-Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. -You know what I mean?

Like, he has the confidence, you know,

for a guy, especially a guy that's not a physical player--

-Right. -He has that confidence

to, like, throw this out there,

throw this out there, like, you know, like, talk.

Yeah, yeah.

I wonder if that's infectious for his team too.

Did you notice that in the summer too, is his love for just talking?

Oh, for sure, absolutely.

Like, we would play a free-throw game after every practice.

It'd be me, him, Ant, another talker, and AD, you know?

And we would just like, you know, try to talk shit

to one another, try to get somebody off their line.

We would play a free-throw swish game.

If you swish, you get a minus, you know?

If you just make it, okay, you stay, you get one.

So we trying to, well... I'm sorry, if you swish, you get two points.

If you make it, you get one point. If you miss, you get a minus.

And we would go to a certain number.

Sometimes to seven, sometimes we'd go to 11.

And we were always just messing with each other, like,

and we'd be talking shit throughout the whole free-throw game.

So, Hali was a part of that group.

That's great, well, switching to his play, you know,

like, I think sometimes, like, it's interesting

to kinda categorize him.

Is he a superstar, is he a star? Like, what is he?

But, like, right now, he is playing elite basketball.

And what are the components of that?

Like, for me, he's an initiator for his team.

Like, he can iso, we've seen him iso,

we've seen him make big plays, he's extremely clutch.

But what I love about his game is that he doesn't--

and the Pacers have done a great job with their identity.

They don't just try to get the matchup and go one-on-one.

-Right. -There's much more to it than that.

I love that he throws the ball ahead.

A little bit of a lost art in our game, throwing it ahead.

To explain it to the fans, anytime you throw it ahead in the NBA,

you know, NBA players, some are better than others at isolation,

but what most NBA players can do is attack a closeout.

So if you think about throwing the ball ahead,

you've got one or two guys going one-on-one

or two-on-two in an entire half-court.

Now, that creates high-yield opportunities.

So his willingness and their penchant for throwing it ahead,

first of all, I think is important.

Do you see that when he plays, his willingness is unique to be able

-to throw it ahead? -Absolutely.

And like you just said, you gotta understand,

like, in the postseason, guys are picking up

in the backcourt, 94 feet.

A guy like Hali, they try to wear him down.

You know, or guys like Ant, they try to wear you down.

Guys like Shai, they try to pick you up full court.

So what Hali, what's great about what Hali does,

so if, you know, if the New York Knicks have scored,

or whatever the case, say Karl-Anthony Towns scores,

or Myles Turner,

Myles Turner gets it out right away, and they're picking up

just to kick ahead into the frontcourt.

Now, it's so much space 'cause you're gonna have four guys in the backcourt.

You're gonna have Karl-Anthony Towns, Myles Turner,

or Pascal, and/or...

And then you're gonna have someone picking up Hali in the backcourt.

So when he throws it ahead to Nembhard, to Nesmith,

to Obi Toppin, to those guys,

they have so much room to either see

if they got an early fast, it's a fast-break point.

That's fast-break point.

If they have an early attack, they can go at it right now

because it's literally only six guys in the frontcourt right now.

It's hard to score in the half-court in the postseason.

You get to grab more, hold, things of that nature.

So his kick-aheads is giving them the advantage,

and we've seen it, you know, time after time

after time in this series when the Knicks have scored.

You know, Jalen Brunson gets into the lane,

shoots his patent fadeaway.

You know, Karl-Anthony Towns gets into the lane

and able to make a layup or whatever the case may be,

they're getting that ball out so fast

that the Knicks have no chance of even setting their defense.

And you see Pascal laying the ball up on the other end,

you know, 20 seconds on the shot clock.

Just like that or getting fouled.

So you know, that ability,

and that's infectious, that's infectious basketball.

When your star player is willing to give the ball up

and get it out of his hands,

and trusts you to make a play,

everyone wants to play like that,

guys wanna play for that player.

And then, you know what? If we don't have anything, bring it back out.

And now, here comes the ghost screens.

They pitch it to Hali, okay, touch screen.

Little touch, flare out, slip out.

You know? Now, Hali's getting downhill,

the ball gets to spraying.

And here comes the, you know, you get into the blender.

And once the blender start,

now, you know, you, you have guys, like you said,

most NBA guys play against the closeout.

You know, we don't have a lot of iso guys

that can get you a bucket and one-on-one, nor do we want guys,

certain guys, playing one-on-one basketball.

But we all know that when guys can get into a closeout game,

that can make the team that much better,

and that's what Indiana's doing right now.

Absolutely. I think one of the things that is, to me,

is so valuable about their principles

or the way they play, like, they change ends quickly.

Obviously, they wanna play fast, they get out,

but why do they do that, you know?

Again, I think you're spot on. When you have a leader,

a lead guard or a playmaker that throws it ahead,

-guys wanna run, right? -Yeah.

'Cause they get opportunities to get the ball, to attack

when there's not four guys in the paint.

So one, that promotes running.

So now, they're like, "Hey, we wanna play fast,

we wanna get out early, we wanna change ends quickly."

And then he's throwing it ahead,

so it makes them even more motivated to do that.

But I think what their ability to change ends quickly

does to the defense is they create a lot of cross-matches.

Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

So, you know, it might be Sia comes out ahead,

he doesn't get it, but he's got Jalen Brunson on him,

and then they can throw it ahead, throw it in the post,

and you got a problem.

You got Karl-Anthony Towns on the ball, perhaps.

The ball goes into the post, they got Brunson in the post.

So, not only are they creating cross-matches,

they can go into the post,

but they've also, like you said, if they throw it ahead,

they drive against a broken defense.

Even if they don't get anything, like you said,

they're in blender with cross-matches.

With cross-matches.

So now, the Knicks not only are trying to catch up,

but trying to get organized as far as where's the danger, where's the matchup?

So I love that they are constantly forcing cross-matches,

whether that's for attacks at the top or attacks in the post.

Turner too, he's good at burying his guy in the lane.

-So if he runs the court... -Absolutely.

...right, he has no problem just sealing a guard

or a wing in the middle of the lane,

which, again, causes a lot of attention,

allows someone to drive and kick, play two-on-one on the weak side.

For me, that's a huge principle of what they do,

is that they start the possessions with the deck stacked in their favor

because they create cross-matches.

Absolutely. You said it perfectly.

'Cause sometimes they do a lot of switching too.

The only main guy I've seen that has kept his matchup has been Nesmith.

When Nesmith has been on the floor, he's kept his matchup.

He's getting over screens, he's trying to get under screens

to beat Jalen Brunson before stopping his drive, whatever the case may be.

But some of the other times, they're switching a lot, you know?

If Haliburton is guarding the pick-and-roll,

he'll try to get out and show quick to get back to his man.

But other than that, like you said,

if Miles happened to get cross-matched, you know,

on Mikal Bridges and the three goes up, you know?

Obviously, the shooter can't shoot and be the first one to get back.

-Right. -So, if Miles is contesting

at the three-point line above the break and he's running out,

now it's Jalen Brunson, you know, that's back there.

You know, it's maybe a smaller guy.

So he's sealing them, and it's going to cause a chain reaction.

Either he's going to get a foul, he's going to get a layup,

or you're gonna have multiple guys

trying to either kick Jalen Brunson out or double,

and that's when their blenders start.

You know, and you got Karl-Anthony Towns

trying to close out on some of these guys on the perimeter

where he's not as, you know, as great as he would be,

obviously, below the free-throw line.

You know, so that's working in their favor, man.

That blender game, once that starts,

because Indiana is not putting nobody on the floor

that cannot catch, shoot, or drive.

And the only person right now has been the big kid, Bradley,

that they've given some minutes as of late.

Other than that, they come off the bench with McConnell,

with Mathurin, with Obi Toppin.

Those guys... Sheppard.

Those guys come in, and they're ready to catch, drive, pass.

-Yeah. -Catch, drive, pass.

Come off the pick-and-roll, slip,

ghost, get out, catch, drive, pass, blender game.

That's all for 48 minutes.

It really feels to me like they've empowered all these guys.

It's almost like maybe the most equal-opportunity offense.

And if you look at the names, like, no disrespect at all,

but there's other teams with kind of big twos, big threes,

you know, a fourth guy that's really good,

that doesn't give as much responsibility...

-Right, right. -...to these guys.

So there's this kind of equal-opportunity nature of the way they play.

So we talk about fans, media,

talking about how the game's become homogenized.

It's pick-on. You know, you look at some of these teams,

and Indiana being the one I wanna highlight today,

but Golden State, the Nuggets,

you know, even Miami a little bit,

that play a slightly different style,

whether it's pinch post, whether it's split actions,

whether it's Jokić in all the different areas he can cause attention.

-Correct. -Indiana does an amazing job

of playing a different way, and for the common fan,

like to really check out how they play, how equal opportunity,

how they always press the defense to try to get downhill

to force a rotation, to throw it out.

Like how Hali doesn't, like, take the pick-and-roll,

force a switch, back it out,

say, "Get to your spots."

He says, "I'm going to go quick. I'm going to try to create an advantage,

-play on the weak side." -[LeBron] Yeah.

That's what I think helps this team. They're unique in that way, right?

A lot of teams like Boston, New York,

they're gonna force a switch, they're gonna get to their spacing.

They're gonna isolate and stay controlled in that way.

This team doesn't do that nearly as much as they could

in relation to all the other teams in the league.

Yeah, and the one thing that

I think sometimes happened

with when you play the Pacers, you know?

When Hali comes out the game, you know,

you think it's a time to...

Hali's come out and TJ McConnell comes in,

and he doesn't look the part.

He doesn't look, he's not super athletic, can't really shoot the three,

you know, and you think it's a time to relax.

Anytime any of my teams have played

against Indiana over the last couple years,

that's even more heightened awareness.

'Cause TJ changes the game as well.

-He does. -TJ comes in

with mad pressure on the offense constantly.

He gets into his Nash dribble, he's circling around.

-Yeah. -And if you're not accounting for him,

then the minutes that you thought you were winning, you could win

with Hali on the bench, you end up losing those minutes.

8-2, 7-4.

-You know, 9-3. -Right.

And those are huge minutes, you know, so like,

you have to, if you are the opposing team, there's no time.

And Rick Carlisle and our good friend Lloyd Pierce--

-Shout out to Lloyd Pierce. -Yeah, Lloyd Pierce, our good buddy.

They're not allowing New York to take a breath.

-Right. -You have...

-You know, TJ kind of ramps it up. -Right, exactly.

He comes in the game, his pace goes up, he picks up full court.

Yeah, pace comes up, you know?

Obi Topping comes in, pace comes up.

Like those guys are keeping that pace.

Like, you know,

and listen, they're saying, "Listen, you wanna take a breath,

you get a halftime and you get after the game.

That's the only time we're going to allow you to take a breath."

They're just putting constant pressure on you.

And that comes from, that comes from buying in from day one.

-Okay? -[Steve] Right.

You know, Rick Carlisle and their coaching staff looked at his roster,

and obviously, that was a huge trade trading for Pascal,

I believe last year.

But they knew, "Okay, this is our roster

and this is how we need to play in order for us to be successful."

And we also know that most guys in the NBA,

they don't want to defend a second and third action.

They will play the first action, maybe even the second,

but the third, you get 'em to a third

and fourth action where you're driving and kicking

and that ball always moves faster than the body.

There's nobody faster than the ball, you know?

Yeah. They don't really have any ball stoppers.

Like, they're always looking for the next action.

And as you know, that's a habit. You have to build that habit.

You have to build that.

They draw and kick and they got nothing.

It's a great closeout. They don't wait.

They don't say, "What are we doing?"

They're straight up into a DHO, guard-to-guard DHO,

slip, next guy's cutting, you know, when his man turns his head.

So I think they're unique in that way.

[theme music]

Let's talk a little bit about the inventiveness.

I've been impressed on the defensive side. They've improved a lot.

Year after year getting better 'cause that was their weakness.

I want to give Pascal a lot of credit,

'cause both ends of the floor, he's a problem solver for them.

-Yeah. -One of the things I wanted

to talk to you about is the uniqueness of the way they play.

We talked about the hit-aheads.

We talked about the pace causing cross-matches,

about looking for early baskets,

but when they get in that delayed transition

or in the half-court, it's fascinating to me

how you take the foul line extended area

and then all the way up almost to half-court.

You typically, in the NBA, we bring a player in

for a pick-and-roll or we have a pin or something,

but we want to clear that area.

-Right. -Where they're fascinating

to me is they have no problem, like air traffic control,

like you said, the go screens.

I think they call them blur screens.

-Yeah. -They'll come in blur screen.

One guy's coming in for a screen, another guy will just come in and blur.

So, Turner's setting a drag,

Nesmith might just come in under the drag and...

Right, right.

Essentially he's changing sides of the court,

but he makes the defense say, "Whose responsibility is this?"

Right, should I help here, should I switch here?

Should I stay square?

And so they create this confusion,

which gets people on their heels.

Now Hali's turned the corner, and then you got some just different things.

They play guard-to-guard pitch, which is very rare, right?

Usually, it's guard to big.

They flare high.

They might be running an action on this side and always flare the help.

The cutting also moves the help.

So for example, if we run a drag and Nesmith runs that blur

while the drag's going on, the help's moving.

So they've moved the help from strong to weak,

or the guy comes off the pick-and-roll or rejects it.

[LeBron] So guy doesn't know if he's low man.

He doesn't know if he's the tag guy, low man, should he be helping.

Or they might run a 21 action, a pistol action on one side,

and someone's flaring on the opposite elbow.

So when someone dives out of that action,

the help on the weak side is changing.

-It's changing. -Talk a little bit, having played them,

you guys played them six weeks ago, I think.

-Yeah. -A little bit of, like, what that's like,

that just chaos out there, foul line extended,

when most teams want to keep that area spaced.

Yeah, like you just said, you just used the perfect word.

It is controlled constant chaos.

You know?

And if you're not like head on a swivel at all times,

-but also communicating. -Communicating.

And talking, that is the number one thing

versus a team like Indiana, versus OKC, you know,

versus the old Spurs teams.

Like, you know, there is constant movement.

You have to have your head on a swivel. And I learned that when I played football

back in the day, because you could get,

you get hit with a with a cracked back, and it's over for you.

And that's the Pacers, like you said,

they could be running a 21 action.

And a fast break, full pace,

throw it ahead, you know, pitch back.

And Turner comes set a flare screen for that guy.

But on the complete opposite side, they could be setting a hammer screen.

So it changes the low man, you're like, "Rip screen,"

but then if your guy sets the rip screen and he slips to the rim, you're like,

"Oh, am I taking the guy hammer to the corner, or am I staying with the rip?"

You have to be on point at all times,

and the communication has to start

way before the ball even crosses half-court.

You have to have ultimate communicators out there.

-Right. -And guys that's, you know, there was a,

there was a point in the season, you know,

this year when we were playing,

I believe it was the Minnesota series in the first round.

And guys were coming to the bench, and it was a heated moment, I believe.

And guys were like, "We gotta talk. Like, we're not talking."

And I was like, "Absolutely. We're not talking.

But you know what also we gotta fucking do?

We gotta fucking listen."

[laughs] Yeah.

There's two sides to that coin.

I could be talking and be calling out the play.

"Hey, here come the flare screen, here come the back screen."

You know, "Here comes the rip."

But if your ears aren't open or your head is not on a swivel,

you're not gonna react.

Yes, you know, there is a, you know, there's a huge layer.

We understand that 90% of basketball when it comes

to being above and things of that nature and being

before the play happen is communication.

But guys have to have their head on a swivel.

And they have to listen.

Yeah, it's like the difference between talking and communicating.

-Right, exactly. -Yeah.

You know what else I think is fascinating for me is,

once we do get the matchup we want in our league,

like we try to get so spaced.

Like if they run a drag

and they got Haliburton on Towns, you know?

They'll bring another guy in,

and it might even be a good defender,

just to keep causing chaos.

So in a sense, what they value more than the rest of the league is,

instead of valuing that matchup and spacing,

-they value the confusion. -They value confusion.

They value the next action. Okay, we like the Haliburton matchup,

but say, you know, he brings OG into the action

and he throws it to Nesmith, and he closes out now on KAT,

and he's driving, and they get to the other side.

So it's that relentless pressure they're putting on the defense.

We know they get out and get transition opportunities.

Their pace is more about their half-court pace than their full-court pace.

They are relentless at trying to get in the cracks, create confusion,

get downhill, create closeouts, create two-on-ones.

I don't know of another team

that would bring a good defender into a matchup,

-but it's because they value-- -Yeah, they value that.

And it's funny, our good friend Pat McAfee,

was listening to his show earlier before we jumped on,

and he says, "Isn't it ironic that their name is the Pacers?"

-Right. -You know, it is very ironic

that their name is the Pacers.

'Cause it's constant pace, constant pressure.

Like they're not stopping. And just like you said,

them having Hali, they know.

Yes, okay, that's a good matchup.

Hali on Karl-Anthony Towns, KAT. That's a good matchup.

But what's a better matchup is seeing if KAT can navigate

a pick-and-roll with him guarding the ball.

-[Steve] Right, right. -That's not his primary.

-That's not what he do. -[Steve] Yeah.

[LeBron] That is a shark out of the water.

That's a fish out of the water. Not saying that he can't,

but that's not what he's accustomed to doing. You know?

So they know. They be creating that chaos,

creating that indecision,

creating that one split, you know?

We saw that in game-- What was that?

That was game two, the game two of the Knicks series,

when Nesmith started hitting those threes late in the game,

they were still running their same stuff.

-Pace, pace. -Yeah.

And it was a little confusion on the Knicks' side,

and they couldn't catch up to what they were doing.

And that's all they're trying to create.

You know what else I think is, is an interesting topic

and beautiful for me is like when I played for Mike D'Antoni.

When I first came to Phoenix, he watched us play pickup basketball,

and he was like, "There's something here.

I don't need to over, you know?

I just need to organize and encourage it."

And then he tweaks, then says, "Hey, we want to be deep, deep corner.

"We want to screen on the bottom side, try to force the guy to go over.

Steve gets down the lane, puts pressure on the big," whatever.

Mike's brilliant, and he made a bunch of tweaks,

but he kind of was like,

the players are inventing things as we go here.

So, I've seen this with good defensive teams.

Oklahoma City. I feel like Nick Nurse's Raptors team was like this.

Of course, there's principles,

but a lot of it is the players' ability to read and react.

And when I watch this Pacers team, there's a couple things that stand out.

Many things.

But like Turner, you know, he can roll and catch a lob.

He can pop and shoot,

but sometimes he short rolls, so the big gets on his heels,

and then he pops back out to three.

Like, that's so unique, right?

I doubt Rick was like, "Why don't you short roll, then pop back out to three?"

He just saw he did it and was like, "Hold on.

Like, keep doing that." So I always think it's fascinating,

the ingenuity of letting guys

kind of be themselves, play off each other.

You also see it in their cutting.

Guy drives, guy turns his head, cuts,

guy fills a lot of that kind of--

They'll do the corner cut and the drift,

but also just guy turns his head, cut,

the guy doesn't stand behind him.

He goes and replaces now.

So, as that guy cuts behind his man,

the guy in the corner's man is attentive to the cut.

Now he's not just stood there, he's relocating.

Relocating.

So now that's two defenders are going, who do I got?

[LeBron] Right, right, right.

[Steve] Some of that is principles, but some is them saying,

"I know that's unconventional.

I know it's unconventional to short roll and then pop or whatever may be.

But as long as we're relocating and getting to spots,

as long as we cut and replace, you guys will find a rhythm."

And that's where you're, like you're saying, this chaos

that's causing all sorts of advantages.

Yeah, yep. And like you said, they know it works, you know?

Rick could have did the same thing Mike did.

He could have seen the way they were playing in the summer

and was like, "We have something here.

I'm gonna organize the chaos and give it a little structure,

but I'm not gonna change the dynamics of it

'cause this is who we are and this is how I know we can be successful."

I always find that balance. We're watching a game.

You know the coaches are coaching, you know those principles,

whether it's action or principled chaos, 'cause our...

let's not forget, a big word for the Pacers is "random."

So, to the casual fan, random doesn't mean a bad thing.

Random means difficult to scout.

-Yeah. -Right?

They're gonna go to the next action, play quick,

cut when you don't think they're going to.

He's gonna half roll and pop but get to the next side.

Put the five on the ball,

they're gonna make the three guard,

receive the pick-and-roll. Someone slips, who's got him?

Someone replaces, there's that randomness.

And so, for the casual fan understanding, like,

the coaches can implement.

Especially in today's day, you don't want to be so obvious

or predictable that they can scout, take everything else.

That's why, as we've talked about,

we don't run a lot of sets anymore

because people just switch it all and you're left with

looking at a zone iso opportunity and trying to get to your spacing.

But I always think it's fascinating to find

the line between what the players have been encouraged to do

by the coaches through principles,

through their personalities, dynamic, how they work,

and what they come up with on their own that the coaches help shape.

Yeah, I think that that's built on the trust

of the players that, I mean,

I think we all know that the more

and more that you are able

to instill trust into your coaches,

they will give you a little bit more of the string.

And I heard a quote in one

of the games in the Eastern Conference Finals,

and I think Hali took a step back, like a 30-footer,

and they asked Rick Carlisle after the game, like,

"How did you feel about Hali taking that shot?"

He says, "He's earned the right to take any shot he wants to take."

And that right there let me know that, okay,

the ball is in that guy's hands, and the head coach

and the head player is like this.

They're in unison.

They know what they wanna do,

and he's instilling that on the floor.

He's the coach on the sideline, coaches those guys.

-But Hali is the coach on the floor. -[Steve] Yeah.

You know, that right there let me know

-that this is random basketball. -[Steve] Yeah.

But it's random because the synergy

between the head coach and Hali is like this.

And the rest of the guys all built together to that.

That let me know what I was watching

and why they're being successful.

That's a great point, yeah. He's built that trust.

Earned that trust. He's the initiator, decision maker.

He's the coach on the floor, absolutely.

It gives the team a lot of belief

and freedom to go out there and be okay to make mistakes.

Absolutely, I mean, the kid had 32, 15, 12,

and zero turnovers last game.

-Zero. -Zero.

You can't give more trust to a head coach

after a performance like that.

He, and they, they really do take care of the ball.

I think some people would say, you know,

how do they do that when they play so fast?

And that is a testament to them.

But sometimes when you play fast,

it becomes easier to not turn it over, 'cause you're not holding.

You're not holding the ball and not thinking as much.

You're not like, "Which decision should I--

I'm getting rid of it."

And then the next guy's getting rid of it.

You know? Next action.

Yep, if I don't have a shot, get off of it.

You have a quick drive, okay.

Someone steps over, get off of it, you know?

These are quick twitch, quick twitch, the ball moves,

the body moves and they've,

to this point so far in the postseason, they've mastered this.

They're, they're... this is a team that's really well constructed,

well put together, and well-coached.

Absolutely, amen.

We're taping this.

The Pacers are up 3-1 on the Knicks,

going back to Madison Square Garden tonight.

This episode should come back, come out next week when both...

OKC's already won.

-They're going to finals. -Congratulations, OKC.

Yes, big time. But the Pacers still gotta close this out.

What do the Knicks have to do

if they got any chance of clawing back into this?

Man. I mean, a 3-1 is always a tough deficit.

-The numbers are against you. -Yeah, the numbers are against you,

but it just starts with one game, you know?

And they can't focus on game six,

they can't focus on game seven, you know?

The only game they can focus on is game five at home.

And this has been a close series, you know?

-Absolutely, right. -3-1 is...

3-1 could be the difference between 2-2

or them feeling like they should be up 3-1.

And this has been a close series,

so they know that they're capable of winning,

and they know they're capable of playing well.

They have to sustain. They have to close quarters.

If you don't close a quarter right,

that is the difference between winning and losing the game.

It could be a,

it could be a 31-to-29 game with about 40 seconds to go,

and if a team go on a 4-0 run,

instead of a two-point game, now it's a six-point game,

and you start, you know, a lot of people get so facts,

you know, infatuated with the fourth quarter, you know?

Right, right.

It's some of it in the first quarter,

the end of the second quarter, end of the third.

How you close the quarters in the last, you know,

50 to 130, you know, on the clock,

can result in, you know, you winning the game.

So I think the New York Knicks have to,

they have to play fast,

they have to get that, you know, get Indiana,

you know, bodies shifting and whatever the case may be.

And they have to close quarters, you know?

And if they close quarters, then I think they'll give themselves

a good chance to win game five.

But if not, then we have a Pacers versus Thunder 2025 final.

You made two good points there.

One you made earlier, and one you just made.

I think earlier you said you gotta communicate on defense.

And I think one of the things the Pacers do to teams

is they stretch your bandwidth.

You get mentally fatigued with the chaos.

[laughing]

You get mentally fatigued, like it could be a simple 21,

but this time it's a step up, a slip.

He throws it back, they're going to,

there's so much going on and it's random.

It's not a pattern you know.

There's dozens of patterns happening, random patterns.

So, I think people's bandwidths gets tested here,

and I think the Knicks,

to the other point you made about communication is,

they gotta communicate through these patches.

I thought, especially in the second half in Indiana,

they made a lot of like, just big errors,

-like-- -Yeah, I agree.

Things that you could control.

Side out of bounds, back cut, layup-- stuff that they don't typically give up.

Because their bandwidth was stretched, they made some errors.

Or because of the randomness, he's like, this last time, the back cut,

he popped for a three, so he tried to cheat it.

And he gives up a layup.

So I think for them, what they've gotta do,

and like you said, it takes one game.

They have to put pressure on Indiana.

So, winning one game is gonna put pressure on Indiana.

They go home now, and if they don't close, they're going back to the Garden.

Right.

So, you gotta try to find a way to win that one game,

shift the momentum, put the pressure on the Pacers.

And I think for them, that bandwidth, that communication,

like you said, is so pivotal

for them to be able to hold them at bay and try to win a game down the stretch.

And also, like, it doesn't matter. We know this Indiana team,

it doesn't matter if you get up 25 against them.

-It's not over. -Right.

-[laughing] -You gotta keep going,

like this Pacer team, they don't stop.

They keep playing all the way till zeroes is on the clock,

so if you're able to build a lead and the crowd gets into it

or whatever the case may be, you have to be able

to understand that if they make a run,

which they will make, how do you combat that?

You have to be able to either get to the free-throw line

to calm it down

or get into the lane, or just make a quick run,

and sustain the effort, because we know this Pacer team,

they're not gonna stop.

And win the possession game.

You can't give up offensive rebounds.

If they're not turning the ball over, you can't be kicking the ball over the gym.

Like you said, get to the foul line, slow it down,

get your defense set.

Like so many ways to try to just keep them off the full burner, right?

-[chuckling] -[LeBron] Mm-hmm.

Like when they get going, it gets relentless.

But you bring up another great point.

How historic is it that against the Bucks, the Cavs, and the Knicks,

and two of them on the road,

they've come back from like crazy margins late in games.

Like, there's something about this team,

and I believe they call it "walk 'em down."

And they just slowly, methodically-- with pace...

-With pace, yep! -...find their way back into games.

Have you ever seen this before?

Each round, they've had these historic comebacks.

[sighs] Well, we was always talking about when I was making runs,

like in the 2010s, and that run when I was making

with the Heat and with the Cavs.

The Golden State Warriors were one of those teams.

And it always was like,

if you can win the third quarter versus them,

-because those guys-- -They were amazing

-in the third, right? -Oh, my goodness!

What was going on in the locker room at halftime?

It's like early on, you talk about it,

and then if it still happens, then it's like

when the coaches come into the locker room and bring it up, you like,

"Shut the hell up, don't talk about it, we know!"

It's like, "Guys, listen. Get out there, get a warm-up

because Golden State in the third quarter,

they're gonna try to blitz you right away."

There were multiple games throughout that run they had,

and they still will do it from time to time as well too,

but with Steph and Klay, those guys

were really just start the third quarter,

and they try to hit you with a 9-0 run right away.

Make you call a timeout,

and just try to get the momentum going.

And so, I've been a part of it before

when the run, you just couldn't stop it,

you knew it was gonna happen! It was like an avalanche,

and you try to figure out ways you could combat it.

And the only way you could combat it is by scoring,

by attacking the rim, getting a foul,

getting that whistle blown, getting to the free-throw line,

kinda slow them down a little bit.

But also just kind of just staying like, you have to keep,

like you said, the bandwidth.

You can't allow the bandwidth to stretch too much!

You have to keep it where you're like,

"Okay, we've been here before,

we understand it, we know they're gonna make a run,

how do we make sure our bandwidth doesn't stretch

to a point where now it's compromised?"

[theme music]

Maybe shifting gears a little.

I look at all the things the Pacers are doing offensively and think, like,

this is possibly the future of NBA offense.

With all the randomness,

with not constantly hunting a mismatch,

using cross-matches, mismatches

to continue to make defenses make lots of decisions,

-make errors, right? -Mm-hmm.

Same could be said of OKC defensively.

OKC is in a way the future of defense.

Now, I think it's easy to say that,

it comes down to coaching, but it really comes down to personnel.

'Cause not every defense has the defenders OKC has.

-[laughing] -Or the IQ.

-Or the IQ, yeah. -You look at the profile of the defense.

They have some balance, they have the two bigs.

Or they can bring some smaller bigs off the bench that are versatile.

-Yep. -Give you different looks, can switch.

They have a lot of speed and mobility everywhere.

Everywhere on their court, they have fast, mobile guys.

They're one of the handsiest groups I've ever seen.

Like crazy getting their hand on guys' drives,

shots, whatever it is-- deflections.

They have the ability with that speed and mobility

to get in the gaps tight, to make the best player...

-Yeah. -[Steve] ...have doubt!

-Yep. -Have doubt.

This pass is kinda there, but the way they can fire back out,

the way they stun and recover, the way they X out,

like we talked about in previous episodes,

their man looks like a zone a lot.

Then they do play zone.

Then they play zone with the trigger to man.

Then they'll even play this hybrid zone

where like Shai may leave the corner,

or he may leave the high quad

and just stand around the nail somewhere

and just be big and say, "This is a no-go zone."

And they're okay saying,

"Hey, my partner's either gonna pick me up

or if they pass over high hands, I'll get back."

-But there's an IQ involved in that. -[LeBron] Mm-hmm.

Just love to hear, one,

your thoughts on them overall as a defense.

And then, maybe we get into like how the Pacers and them match up.

It's funny, after the game last night,

I saw the clip from Ant Edwards, and he said about their defense,

it felt like it was 15 guys on a puppet string.

-[laughing] -You know?

Hey, if you're a coach-- Yeah, like, that's about as best

-as a star player can say. -Fifteen guys

on a puppet string, and that means

every single one of 'em are connected.

You slide, I slide, you move, I move, you know.

And it starts with those guys at the perimeters position.

Jalen Williams, Lu Dort, Shai.

Shai was one of the best guys with his hands.

You don't look at him as a primary defender,

but he was up there in the top five, maybe top three in steals per game.

And then you have those two athletic bigs

that they have in Hornstein, and the big fella.

So, it's key when you have those guys... with Chet Holmgren.

So, they have a system in place,

but it helps with the athleticism

and the personnel, like you said.

And then they come off the bench

with one of my favorite teammates of all time,

-in Alex Caruso, who is like... -A dog.

He's the ultimate Swiss Army knife.

Mm-hmm.

We've literally seen him guard Giannis.

We've seen him guard the Joker.

We've seen him guard Ant.

We've seen him guard Julius Randle.

We've seen him guard Jamal Murray

throughout this whole postseason.

And you look at plus-minus after the game,

AC will have five points, three rebounds, two assists,

and his plus-minus would be a Goddamn plus 17.

-Yep, yep. -You know?

And Cason Wallace comes off, you know?

And those guys, Wiggins, you know,

all those guys and everyone,

when they come in the game, they don't miss a beat defensively.

And so I'm super-intrigued on seeing

how the controlled chaos

of the Indiana Pacers, offensively pace, space,

you know, randomness,

matches up with the 15 guys on a puppet string

defensive mindset of the Oklahoma City Thunder.

I think it is a... it's a perfect matchup

when it comes to who's gonna be the one, where were the give and take?

Now we're playing tug and war.

How do we...

Is your defense gonna pull the string closer to us,

or is our offense gonna pull the string?

So like, you know, it's very intriguing to see that matchup

'cause OKC's been the best defense all year,

and, you know, Indiana has hovered

around the best offense all year,

but they've always been top five in pace.

-That has never changed. -[Steve] Sure.

Yeah, I don't think Indiana wants

to see Oklahoma City in the half-court.

-I think it's so important... -I agree.

...for them to get out there before they get set,

before they get those long arms, those mobile defenders

-loading to the ball. -I agree.

'Cause they have the functionality just to switch all that stuff to play.

I think what OKC does, and you could see it against Minnesota or anyone,

but like meeting Ant at half-court,

Dort, physical, you know, excellent defender,

building a kind of a wall, one-man wall and presence,

and the second guy in there zoning up,

then a back line of three, which is really intelligent.

They have a great feel for how high they should be.

You know, I always love when defenses push the boundaries

on leaving from the baseline to like the block empty.

Like how high can we step

to shrink the floor and say, yeah, you can go

and try to find guys in the corner

over long arms at the rim,

over, you know, when we've got you out at 35 feet.

So why cover this space?

Let's compress the floor and move up.

And I think their back line does a great job

of stepping up higher and higher

as long as they can to shrink the floor,

to take space away, to bait you into doing things,

and just, like I said, putting doubt in people's minds.

Yeah, absolutely. Now you just said, I mean, one of my favorite plays

from yesterday while watching the game,

on their clincher to get to the NBA Finals,

AC was guarding the ball on their left wing.

I believe he was guarding Anthony Edwards,

and Anthony Edwards was able to get middle.

We don't want anyone getting middle,

but Anthony Edwards is such a dynamic offensive player.

It's gonna happen from time to time. But AC, he went middle,

and there was a guy that helped at the nail.

-He gave full body help at the nail... -Full body help.

...and made Anthony Edwards get off to it,

hit the guy on the wing,

and there was a defender in the corner,

and he rotated all the way, you know,

to take away that shot at the wing.

Now normally, you know, you say,

I don't wanna give up corner threes.

No corner threes. You wanna try to stay home on that

and force above the break three,

but they rotated all the way out.

And instead of AC just standing and watching,

he was guarding the ball and found his way all the way.

He ran through the corner.

And Julius Randle actually made this three.

-Right. -But the percentages,

when it comes to that effort,

they're gonna win that percentage.

You know, he got a great contest,

full hands, contest everything.

-And Julius Randle made that one. -Right.

But we seen throughout the series,

Ju, he was not in a good rhythm.

He didn't make that shot all rhythm, you know, all series.

And that's just like they're on a string.

Now I don't know, because I've played with AC,

I don't know if that's built in

from their, you know, what they do every day, shell defense,

-or that's just AC being AC. -Competitive nature.

Yeah, and you know, we had an opportunity when we won it in 2020.

We had AC as a defender, and we also had Rondo

as the offensive guy.

So they had the luxury and the freedom to make up shit.

Mm-hmm.

And you knew it was gonna be beneficial to the team.

So like a guy like AC, he's so intellectual.

He's so smart that he knows

that if my teammate is helping me,

he put a full body at the nail.

I gave up middle, a full body at the nail.

"Oh, shit, I can't stand and watch. I gotta help my teammate."

-We're gonna be weak somewhere. -We're gonna be weak somewhere.

So I thought that was super intelligent.

Even though Ju made the three,

I was like, "You keep playing defense like that, you're gonna--"

-That shot's not gonna beat us. -Not gonna beat us.

I love that. That was amazing to see.

I think you bring up a great example for fans.

Like, when you watch this defense, you just nailed on the head,

they're a pack-the-paint team. They wanna keep you out.

So for the fan, if a guy drives from the wing-middle,

typically in our league, we try to show body and stunt

because we don't want to give up that three or create a rotation.

OKC, they will show full-body help to keep it outta the paint,

especially on the primary initiator in Ant.

So they give a full-body stunt,

not a stunt, full-body rotation,

which leaves, obviously, weakness on the backside.

So the guy from the corner on a string,

15 puppets on a string, who's an athlete, flies outta the corner,

and in this scenario, you know,

it's AC flying out to the corner.

It might be the big, the low man going,

but I think what they do is they pack the paint.

They give up threes, but they give up contested threes,

hard contests, flying at guys. It gets dark.

You think you're wide open. Before you know it, it's like, ah.

So to the point like, Julius made that shot,

but that's a tough shot to make all night when someone is flying by you.

-Absolutely. -So for the fan to recognize,

they're gonna try to keep you outta the paint.

They're gonna allow you to take threes,

but they're gonna fly out and be on a string and contest those threes.

And I love that principle.

I love that they say, you're gonna kill us at our rim.

We don't want to give up layups, fouls, offensive rebounds,

that lead to more layups, fouls, or threes.

And they keep that paint area a no-go zone.

So to me, that's a commitment. That's a clarity.

And then of course, like we talked about earlier,

you have principles, you have athletes, you have a roster,

you have profiles, but you also have a team that has IQ.

Like for AC to decide, "I'm not gonna watch and wait

and see who's supposed to be coming from under the basket,"

he's like, "I got beat, I can see the corner, and I'm gone."

And then his teammates go, "We don't need two going.

AC's got this. I'm a big, I'll stay by the rim."

That type of intelligence, you see it,

not just the principle on packing the paint,

but the ability to read and react with each other is special.

No, absolutely. And that's why where they are right now.

That's why they're hosting the Western Conference in the NBA Finals.

They have the ability to do multiple things out on the floor.

Playing, like you said when we started this conversation to begin with, with OKC.

They have the ability to play two bigs, two mobile bigs.

Then they have the ability to go small and play smaller,

you know, with a lineup that's just super fast,

super, you know, agitating, super quick.

And, you know, you saw a few times like, you know,

Rudy Gobert, as big as Rudy is, as big as the Joker is,

you know, they get offensive rebounds, and it's like a swarm.

You know, you see guys jumping on their backs,

guys coming from up underneath and stripping the ball.

And once they get a strip

and now they're off to the races, that's their game.

You know, you turn the ball over versus OKC,

it's gonna be a layup or a dunk.

You know, so they don't fear size,

you know, because they have them dogs,

they have them athletic guys,

and then they have the intelligence.

And you know, that is a whole other layer.

We've seen a lot of really good teams.

We've seen a lot of good athletes.

We've seen a lot of good, you know, teams that's put together.

But when you are able to also just that last piece

is an intellectual part, the IQ, and they have that.

Yeah, one last way to kind of chop up,

if these two teams meet in the final

or something to watch will be the possession game

'cause they both are great at it.

They both take care of the basketball. They get shots.

I think both teams are good guard offensive rebounders.

Like AC's relentless at trying to get tip-outs.

Same with Nembhard.

Like so you have guards getting extra possessions,

so you gotta make sure you're getting defensive rebounds.

You know, we say "styles make fights,"

there's scenarios where either team

can have the big advantage in this because of their differences.

But I think OKC, just if they can get back in transition,

make them play half-court can have a big advantage.

Having said that, man, this Pacers team has surprised us

round after round, season after season, last three years.

-They have. -Got better and better.

[theme music]

I think at this point it's just hard to doubt the Pacers, you know?

Obviously, going into the finals,

you know, the favorites will be OKC, and rightfully so.

They've had the best year all year,

I mean, along with the Cavs,

but obviously, we know what the Pacers did to the Cavs,

so it's gonna be hard to count the Pacers out,

but the possession game is gonna be huge, you know?

Who can win the possession game?

You know, OKC coming in with the MVP,

and also guys that's just been there before.

I mean, AC has won a championship before,

you know, but also, you look on the other side,

you know, at the way Hali's playing,

and they've got guys that won it before.

Pascal has won a championship before with the Raptors.

So, you know, there's some intriguing things,

some intriguing storylines.

You got guys on both sides that's not afraid of the moment,

you know, and not afraid to fail.

So, you know, it's gonna be super intriguing.

But like you said, I'll second that.

I know, and we both can attest to this,

it would be much better basketball for the Pacers

if they can get out and run it

and get out and move before, you know,

those 15 guys on the puppet string get set, you know?

-Yeah, right? -Yeah, for sure.