Original subtitles

Here we go. [claps]

[chill music plays]

Welcome to another episode of Mind the Game,

brought to you by Uninterrupted and Wondery.

Today, we're here in beautiful Indianapolis

at the Thunderdome, the home of The Pat McAfee Show.

He was gracious enough to let us camp out here,

shoot this episode where we covered my career,

what made me successful.

Although sheepish sometimes about my career,

it was cool to speak with LeBron

about my journey and how I was able to play in the league and have success.

LeBron brought up an NBA piece of terminology

called the Nash Dribble or Nashing.

Yes, I feel kind of awkward explaining this,

but essentially [claps] a Nash Dribble

is where perhaps I have the ball on the wing,

I beat my man, the defender comes to help with the rim,

and instead of shooting, passing, or getting out,

I would circle under the basket,

keep my dribble alive, and just ask questions of the defense.

You know, ask the big if he's gonna switch.

Ask if they're gonna get back. See who turns their head on the perimeter.

See what advantage I create by not getting rid of the ball,

by keeping it and circling under the basket.

I think that's all you need to know in this episode.

Hopefully, you'll learn something.

And, of course, as always,

I hope you enjoy Mind the Game.

Please like and subscribe.

[chill music plays]

-All right, here we are. -Man, we back.

Mind the Game. We're back. What do you wanna talk about today?

I mean, I know we do a lot of talking

about, you know, the game and other players,

and sometimes we even talk about me and all that,

but I think it's only right.

I know how humble you are, how modest you are, Steve.

I know it, but we have to talk about you, man.

Like, I just want to know like from not only myself,

but from everyone, like how are you so successful?

Wasn't the tallest.

Wasn't the fastest.

Wasn't the most athletic.

-No. -Like how the hell

did you get it done year after year after year?

And by the way, two MVP trophies.

-Thank you. -It's only a select few.

We know the list. Only a select few.

Like I wanna know.

Well, you know, it's a long story really.

You know, 'cause it goes back to like your roots.

There's no way, right?

Like line me up and say,

let's see who can like run, jump, wrestle, fight.

-Right, right, right. -You know, throw, whatever.

I'm not gonna win any of those contests.

But, you know, I think the way I grew up

was a huge, huge part of it.

But I think the bottom line is for whatever reason,

however nature-nurture, I can get obsessed.

-Yeah, yeah, -That's the bottom line,

I got obsessed with trying to be the best.

So I put in that time. I constantly was trying to get better.

I didn't start playing basketball until I was 13.

And that's kind of where this story starts.

My parents are from the UK. My dad played soccer.

Yeah, if I say, big soccer team.

I was in the backyard playing soccer, they put me into everything.

Growing up on the west coast of Canada, played hockey, played baseball

and lacrosse in the summer.

-Right. -So I think for me

not playing basketball 'til late,

like I was still getting my 10,000 hours

-playing other sports. -Right.

Like physical literacy, anticipation, angles.

And then, you know, you learn.

Like when you love playing sports,

you learn how to protect space.

You learn how to exploit space.

So like it was, for me,

especially coming from a soccer background,

like you always have to have your head on a swivel in soccer

because if you're not thinking ahead, you're gonna get kicked.

The ball comes out of nowhere, you're gonna do with it.

What are my options? So when I went to start playing basketball,

13 years old, you know, I almost felt I was cheating

that I could use my hands and like spin the ball,

pass the ball, use both hands.

And so I kind of think that all came from playing all those other sports.

And then one other really pivotal part for me,

I think, was my dad.

You know, my dad just loving sports,

but like when we played in the backyard,

you know, he always challenged me in the right way.

So like if I tried to dribble when I should pass,

he's gonna tackle me.

-Yeah, yeah, yeah. -If I pass

when it's the right decision, he's gonna reinforce it.

If I score three goals in the game, when we get in the car,

he wouldn't say, "Three goals, yes."

He'd be like, "You remember that one time

you had a shot, you drew the defense,

you played it off to your teammate,

he had an open goal, best play of the game."

So my value system was trying to out-think, outsmart,

be clever, be witty, the things that he valued.

So that was always kind of what I was trying

to do was to impress my dad

like that, I know how to play.

And so I think that all these little ingredients,

playing all the sports, you know, having that value system,

but most importantly becoming obsessed

with whatever I was doing.

Those are the huge ingredients.

And I feel like soccer too,

like, you know, obviously growing to love soccer

as I've gotten older, whatever and respecting the sport,

I feel like you being able to use that sport

for like knowing angles

when you started playing basketball,

like I always was like impressed with your ability

to master the angle game as well, out on the floor.

Either if it was coming off a pick-and-roll

or if it was a certain pass

or if it was, you know, just kind of reading the defenses

or whatever the case may be,

you know, I know I could... It's always like anytime,

you know, you hear someone's background being soccer,

you see how it can translate to the game of basketball

where it almost puts you plays and plays in advance

'cause in soccer, if you're not like thinking way ahead,

oh, you're not gonna make it.

-That's right. -Yeah, for sure.

It's a great point. I don't think I'd play

in the NBA if it wasn't for soccer.

You know, 'cause like I said, like just physically, you know,

in the ballpark, but not like great.

And so, you know, that was a huge part of it.

And then I think also just being

like that, I couldn't like just run past everyone.

I couldn't jump over everyone. I couldn't just be physical.

I had to be really efficient, like, develop.

And so when talking about angles,

you know, I learned to be really greedy.

-Like I'm gonna get there -[LeBron laughs]

and that angle where you're done.

You know, I'm taking you out.

Like I couldn't have any of the excess fat, the game.

You know, footwork, shooting, passing,

decision making had to always be really sharp.

So I think that a lot of that came from soccer, the angles,

but then a lot of that just came from trial and error.

This guy's pushing me left.

Well, become great in your left.

You know, he's stronger than me.

How do I keep him on his heels, right?

How can I take an angle where I have the advantage

and I dictate the pace of play now?

Like so all these little things, you learn from trial and error.

You learn from being sharp,

but you also like learn because you're obsessed.

At the end of the day, like for kids, like you're the same.

You're obsessed with trying to get better.

You have a growth mindset.

-You can't let go of it, right? -[LeBron laughs]

So all the things we talk about are great, and they're all factors.

They're all a part of this, you know, pot

that makes you who you are,

but the one that really I think transcends

like for all the great players in sport

is they are obsessed with performance,

-obsessed with getting better. -And funny, while we on angles,

it's funny because I feel like you mastered the angle

of the baseline when you played,

and it became a thing called the fucking Nash Dribble.

When did that become a thing,

or was it just always a part of your game?

'Cause we both know, like some guys get there

on the baseline and it becomes like the deep water

-of the pool. -Right.

-Guys are panicking. -Panic.

Step out of bounds or panic,

and I need to get back out to the perimeter.

-Or force a shot. -Yeah, force a shot.

You're behind the basket. You don't quite know.

You turn the ball over.

Like when did the Nash Dribble become

like a staple for you?

You know, it's a great question.

Like, I don't remember when I started doing it, you know?

I will say this though.

I grew up, like Wayne Gretzky was my hero

when I was a kid, one of my heroes.

And for anyone who watched hockey,

he used to skate behind the net and stop

like facing the play with his back to the boards.

So why is that ingenious?

Because he's just changed the perspective

of all the defenders,

including the the goalkeeper, the goaltender.

So the goalie's sitting there, the puck stopped behind him.

So when he does this, what does he see?

-He doesn't know -He don't know.

Where the traffic's going.

-Exactly. -So he is doing this.

Then defenders usually have their back

to their goal seeing everything in front of 'em.

Now they have to turn and face their own goal.

So they don't know who's cutting, who's changing, right?

So it always resonated with me how he was able

to flip the script on the defense,

change their perspective, put them at a disadvantage.

And so, I think I started realizing like, okay,

I'm able to get to spots, but I don't have a solution.

Like I can't jump over everyone.

You know, later in my career, you know,

developed fadeaways and floaters and runners

and all use the glass and the one-legged stuff,

but I needed a solution that I couldn't just get in there

and have to take a bad shot or force a play.

So what I felt was, I earned this real estate.

[LeBron] Yeah.

[Steve] So I'm not just gonna give it back to you

by like chucking it out for a non-play.

You know, a guy that's not a creator to have to catch it,

go to half-court, catch it, bring it back.

I was like I created a...

Defense is now they're all turning to face me.

They don't know who's cutting, who's spacing,

who's relocating, and are they gonna switch,

or are they gonna try to get back?

-Yeah. -If they're gonna switch,

I'm in charge. I got a big on my guy,

-or I got the big that I can toy with. -I got the quickness--

I could take him out, take a fadeaway or keep circling.

I can probe, see which defender on the perimeter.

So I felt like it was a real estate game.

I'd earned that real estate.

Now I'd change their perspective.

Now they don't know whether to switch and get back.

If you're on the perimeter,

you have to turn and see where's that ball now?

In the T, it's a little bit like post to pass.

Why that's successful is throwing to the post,

now as a defender, you have to see man and ball.

So if I turn to see ball,

-Nah, I cut, I'm gone. -Cutting, screen, slipping,

whatever it is.

So I felt like I created an advantage.

I created confusion. I changed their perspective.

They had to look in ways that they were uncomfortable

or they couldn't see both now.

And then if all fails, if they don't switch,

I could throw it up when they were trying to get back.

If they do switch, we got a big under the rim,

or I can take 'em out, take advantage.

So, it really just came from

not being able to attack the rim.

Right, right, right.

I mean, I could always finish, but if, but I could,

-if I had space or time. -[LeBron] Right.

I couldn't just go at a seven-footer

or a 6'6" dude, right?

Like, so I had to think, all right, I got here,

I can exploit this still, just not in the traditional way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's interesting, especially like the correlation

with the whole Gretzky thing, you know,

being able to change the whole perception and POV

by going behind the goalie, going behind the boards,

and now I'm facing it, everyone has to turn.

So, that's, I never-

-It's also like in soccer. -Yeah.

You know, when someone like whips in a cross,

if you play it between the goalkeeper and the defense,

so the defense now is running back into a place

where they don't wanna let it go

in case someone they can't see is coming behind them.

But if they play it, they can put it in their goal.

The goalkeeper's like, "Should I come or not?"

So you're putting the defense in a position where you're like,

"You got some hard decisions to make."

So growing up, playing hockey, playing soccer,

you recognize some of these things

where you put them in a bad position

that you can exploit even if you can't,

like just run past everyone.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

So, you know, I guess, what do they say?

Like, invention is the mother of necessity

or necessity is the mother of invention.

-[LeBron] Yeah. -That's the right way around?

Yeah, for sure. No, now that's dope.

I got one more question for you before we move on.

I know you don't like talking about yourself too much,

or whatever the case may be,

but was it you or was it D'Antoni?

-Mm. -Seven seconds or less.

-Was it? -Well, that's, I mean,

-Mike's amazing. -Yeah.

You know, Mike just had a great feel for the game.

Like, especially offensively, I mean, Mike knows defense,

he knows basketball, he draws up great plays after timeouts.

You know, he knows the game inside and out.

But what I loved about Mike

is that he was willing to go away from what everyone else was doing.

Oh, for sure.

You know, so when I signed with Phoenix,

2004 as a free agent, came back,

started playing pick-up with the guys in September.

And I think Mike realized there,

it was a team that hadn't won many games,

had some young guys, Shawn and Amar'e,

obviously great athletes.

Joe Johnson was developing into a terrific player.

And he, I think he saw us playing pick-up basketball,

he is like, "Why would I slow this down

and get into sets that are gonna make them less effective

than opening this up?

Let's put Amar'e at the five, let's put Shawn at the four.

Let's switch a lot more.

We'll find a way to use our quickness

to defend in different ways, and we'll outscore people."

And so, I think Mike was brilliant in that.

Like, he was willing to say, wait, wait, why would I?

You know, like that's almost harder.

Like you can go and find, this is the, you know, ATOs.

Right, right, right, right.

You can look around the world and find whatever you want.

But for him to say like,

"I'm not gonna do what everyone else is doing."

And take that chance and that risk, you know,

it definitely brought the best out of me,

going smaller, having a great roller, two with Shawn,

having shooters around, being able to just create space

for me to operate and to make plays, make decisions for my teammates.

So, I think, one, that was a culmination of me

developing and continuing to put my foot down as far as trying to get better.

Like, little things like going into that summer, you know,

I always wanted to stay with the Mavericks.

You know, I think Mark had been burned on a couple deals,

I was 30.

At that time, I was attacking the basket

-a little bit kamikaze. -Yeah, yeah.

You know, I was, you know,

didn't maybe have the balance to my game.

I think he was scared, so he let me go.

So, all these things kinda happened,

but before that happened, I'm thinking to myself,

we lost in the playoffs, I think it was to Sacramento.

They put a third defender on our side of the court.

We were playing a two-man game.

There was nothing there for me,

I always had to go the other side and they played two-on-one.

And Rick Adelman was like, "I'm happy to let these guys over here play."

And in a sense, took me outta the series.

So I was like, "That's not happening again."

-I'm gonna get sharper- -Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah.

And one of the things that I think helped me

a little bit was, I played outta my left hand a lot,

and I drove left and I pulled up going right.

And at summer I was like, I'm gonna clean that up.

I'm going to be able to pull up going both ways,

drive the ball both ways.

And so, I really worked on like,

some of my deficiencies as an athlete.

Balance, stability, footwork, quickness,

in and out of a pull-up.

So that now I had more solutions going left pole,

going left runner floater, going right pole, right floater,

finishing both ways.

I think it just unlocked a little more,

and then Mike saying, "We're gonna play small.

We'll have Amar'e rolling, we'll have guys running wide,

we'll have shooters around,

- we'll let Steve go to work." -Yeah.

And so that, I think those two kind of things happening

at the same time set me up for a lot of success

-and set our team up. -Yeah.

And like a lot of the conversations, wasn't really talked about that much

about guys doing the 50, 40, 90 thing.

You know, I think, if I'm not mistaken,

I think Reggie did it, you know, once maybe in the 90s.

-I think Bird did it. -Bird did it.

I'm not quite sure if Ray had done it yet.

Maybe, you can always look that up, I'm not quite sure.

But it became a thing when you were doing,

because it was like, oh shit, every year,

like once you got into your pocket,

it was like 50 from the field, 40 from three,

-90 from the free-throw line. -[Steve] Yeah.

And everybody was trying to figure out a way

how they could retain it,

you know like everybody's like trying to do that now.

Like, everyone, not only 50, 40, 90,

but now everyone is playing four-out.

-One-in. -[Steve] Yeah.

-You got a guard- -[Steve] Or five-out.

You know, and trying to figure out how to create space.

Like, you know, you said in 2004 or 2005,

like when you went to Phoenix, you know,

we remember fuckin' San Antonio two bigs, Detroit two bigs,

Miami played with two bigs, you know,

like Sacramento two bigs.

Like everybody were playing two bigs.

And I don't think that you,

and I don't think that Mike gets enough credit

for revolutionizing the game to where it is today.

You know, they always talk about players,

they talk about how transcendent a player can be,

you know, Magic and Bird, and you know, Shaquille O'Neal

and Kobe and Michael and Steph Curry, you know?

-[Steve] Yourself. -You're saying yourself.

I don't think that you, and first of all,

your style of play, how you and D'Antoni mirrored so easily

to transcend the game.

-That is the game today. -Yeah.

You guys were before its time,

the true essence of before its time.

Well, I think it was right at the right time

because the rules were changing too,

so you couldn't like have two hands on a guy anymore.

When I came in the league,

you could like literally hold a guy's hip and chuck 'em.

Or Derek Harper 'em.

Hundred percent, like, just stuck.

I couldn't, I'm like, what am I supposed to do with this?

Right?

I mean, you go across the lane-- Bam! It was different.

That was the traditional way the game was played, that physicality.

You know, the league,

I think wisely wanted to make it a more free-flowing,

open, highlight the athleticism, which, you know,

we're gonna talk about it later, you know,

where that's taken us and how we got here, which I think is amazing.

So like, you think about it, we were small,

there's rim protectors, you got Timmy, you got Shaq,

you got all these guys around.

We didn't have that.

But we did have Amar'e, you know,

who has unbelievable feet and hands in athleticism.

So, how can we cope defensively

not being a rim protection team?

By one, being different, switching more, you know,

trying to find ways to junk up the game, in that respect.

And on the offensive side, how can we blow teams away?

And so, it was an amazing time for me in a sense

because I think I had just taken my game, my skills,

my confidence, to a new level.

And then Mike opened the floor up, like play.

But again, like, it was a precursor

'cause we hadn't fully committed as a league, right?

We hadn't committed totally to three ball.

You know, we hadn't committed totally

to the analytics at all, you know?

Oh, for sure. I mean, they talked about you guys, like why?

Seven seconds or less, like why you guys gotta get up the floor so fast?

-Let things develop. -[Steve] Sure.

Or why you guys are playing four-out, one-in.

Like, it's not the league what it is today or at that time.

And so, you know, it was kind of like, you know,

they didn't, it's always that,

it gets to that point when it's not,

has not been done before, you know?

And, but it was always respected because of, and feared.

Yeah.

That was one of the things, like,

you knew you had to get a good night's rest

-before playing y'all. -[Steve] Yeah.

Because if you ain't ready to run,

you gonna get your ass ran out of the gym.

You know, it's like, nice for you to say that,

but I think, like, I remember we started the year

like at a 31 and five or something.

And I think what we noticed is like by the fourth quarter

teams were done, a lot of times teams were done.

They, like relentless pace, pace after makes getting it out

and I'm just going and happy to throw ahead

or happy just to take it, or if it's semi-transition

or, you know, secondary break,

we're straight into our drag action,

we're straight into the floor and getting to it.

It's a defense that's trying to get back.

So as the game wears on and we're relentless with that,

That was as much a precursor

because that's the part maybe we don't talk about as much,

is that, that relentlessly.

Our team actually slowed down a little after that first year.

[LeBron] Mm-hmm.

So much so that I think even that first year,

we'd be a bottom team in pace nowadays.

So, that's one of the things like,

we were thought of as the seven seconds left

playing with this crazy pace.

-Not even close to where it's-- -Where it's at now.

So I think like we were a precursor,

I think there's an influence there.

A lot more teams started saying,

"I don't have a Timmy or a Shaq."

I got a guy that can kind of protect,

he's not skilled, so he hurts us in other ways.

-So how can we-- -Yeah.

And so, what's happened is, the profile height--

Right, right.

Has gone like this, like for,

I think while today's game offensively,

-I would've been even better. -Yeah.

-Defensively would've been harder. -Yeah.

It's hard for small guards in today's game.

Anyone like, unless you're like a big six-three.

Like six three and under.

Like it's hard because the court is spread so far.

You have to cover guys in space.

There's less small players out there.

You gotta cover guys that are bigger, stronger

spacing, five-out, rim-rollers, whatever it may be.

You're on attack at all times.

And that position too.

Like you can try to hide and and guard the two, three

or whatever on certain teams.

But it's becoming harder to do that

'cause the amount of shooting on the length.

There's always someone out there

that can drive a closeout on good teams nowadays

that are like the fourth option.

That's where the game is gonna continue

to evolve and revolutionize.

But I think like back then we were making teams fearful

'cause they knew that they had to,

if they didn't stay with us with the pace.

It's gonna be 20 points before you know.

And then you can't get back in 'cause you're tired.

So that was a precursor,

but still like not even close to where we are today.

But man it was, those were some fun teams.

Mike was unbelievable.

Putting us in that position.

And then, you know, for me, I think

it was the confluence of the rules being less

physical and more open.

That allowed me to really highlight my creativity,

how to exploit space, how to find angles.

Like you said, I had to be so greedy with my angles

because I wasn't as athletic as most of the guys I'm playing against.

But, incredible time. And you see it now, you see it around the league.

-The seeds of that now. -For sure, it's blossomed.

For sure. Shout out, man, Mike D'Antoni, man, one time.

-Shout out Mike D'Antoni. -Yeah, for sure.

[upbeat chill music]

Definitely taught me a lot.

In this episode, LeBron mentioned the two-nine guy

or two-nineing,

essentially that is the help defense's opportunity

to come help and be in the lane not guarding their

designated offensive player, but playing in a zone

or in a help position.

You only have under three seconds.

So in the league we say the two-nine guy

or 2.9 for the amount of time you're allowed

to spend in the lane without guarding

your direct offensive player.

We also talked about the X-out guy in this conversation.

So essentially if we have two shooters stacked on offense

in a pick-and-roll, here comes the pick-and-roll,

here comes the ball handler, this defender rolls.

Obviously, we have defenders all over the floor here

as the roller rolls.

Usually, it's this corner man's opportunity to come in

and help, this X takes up this position

between the two offensive players

and then takes the first pass wherever it goes.

And then the original rotator is gonna now take his original man.

[upbeat chill music plays]

We continue to talk about, you know, you and Phoenix

and when you guys were, you know, seven seconds or less

and four-out one-in or whatever the case may be.

Or sometimes even, you know, you know,

sometimes Matrix even be at the five.

Yeah, five, or Channing Frye.

Or Channing Frye, be at the five.

But one thing that I noticed that wasn't really being done a lot in our league

was the dribble up, pull-up threes, you know,

that you kind of mastered.

I can only remember maybe one guy in our league,

maybe a couple guys, I know Big Shot Billups.

You know, he was really good with his rocker, pull-up.

But you kind of mastered that.

And was it something that was just like,

did it just something that you worked on

or it just kind of clicked or was like, okay,

in order for us to really expand our offense,

that had to be done?

A bit of everything.

I remember guys did it, I remember Tim Hardaway

used to pull up from three,

but like back then we just didn't shoot as many as threes.

So, for me again,

like just the need to like exploit space and time

and so I practiced it, you know,

make a couple, you're like, I can repeat that.

Now I practice it like full speed.

Get him on his heels, pull up a three.

If I can make that like an efficient shot, that's a weapon.

[LeBron] Oh, for sure, like defense has to keep...

-[Steve] Come up higher. -[LeBron] Higher.

You know, you see it like with Steph, like how he's,

you know, I wanted to shoot close to the line.

You know, if I grew up today, I'd probably shoot deeper.

But we were coming from an era where like you don't take those shots.

-You don't take a bunch of threes. -Right, throw it in the post.

It was the opposite, it was looked down upon.

So you're trying to get close to the line and pull,

but what Steph has been brilliant at is drawing the whole defense out.

And now the culture, you see how,

every night you see guys take threes from two, three feet behind.

It's not just Steph, it's like the whole league.

You take threes from out here.

Whereas I don't think in the first

three, four, five years of your career,

You're trying to step a yard outside.

It was only if it was the clock was going down.

Yeah, literally.

So I felt like I had an advantage

'cause I could push the ball hard at the defense.

And you have a decision to make, you have a decision.

This goes into how I played in general, but you had a decision to make.

Are you gonna get up above the three-point line?

At which point I can go by you, or you going to get on your heels?

At which point I had the three.

I think it also came a little bit from,

-I essentially played out of a hesitation. -[chuckles]

And that I would say, that was such a key

to my game because I didn't have to work that hard.

And basically, what I was saying, just had to,

just dance and hold the ball, let it hang

and I could have it hang right here.

So you couldn't reach for it.

If you did, I could just go through your arm,

but at the same time, if you got on your heels,

I could go up.

But what I was really doing is baiting you to get too close.

So as it hangs, you have a decision to make,

do you wanna respect that he might go by me

or do I want to close the gap 'cause he could shoot?

And then if you didn't come, I could just do it again.

So nowadays we stop and we shoot from here,

but back then I could walk my guy to 12, 15 feet sometimes,

'cause they were fearful that I was gonna go by and create havoc.

And then just one hesi, two hesi, three. Now I'm at 14, 15 feet.

Back in the day, that was a great shot.

Now we're eliminating those

and we're shooting them from here.

I didn't have to... [imitates basketball bouncing]

six, seven hard dribble moves to get to my spot.

I could just skip, hang the ball, keep it away from you

and just ask you, coming or not?

Where the hell you get that swag from?

'cause you said, "I grew up playing lacrosse, hockey."

Yeah.

Them ain't, this, that right here?

-That ain't, them ain't hockey moves. -[Steve laughs]

That ain't hockey swag, that ain't lacrosse swag.

There's little bits in there.

There's little bits in there. So like,

I remember at hockey camp when I was like 11 years old.

You know, I'm just a little guy.

And the coach stopped the camp

and said, "Steve, show me that head fake."

And we're just like, huddled up. I didn't know what he meant.

He's like,

"Every time you come up on a guy, your head just starts going,"

and he's like, "And they get on their heels."

He's like, "Show the guys." And it was the first thing,

I didn't know I was doing that.

I was just trying to get him off balance.

And so I think there was something

that I always just innately liked about rhythm.

Just changing your balance, getting you to lean one way or the other.

Same in soccer too.

You show a little bit too much of the ball.

But you know... Oh! Like in the last second.

And so lacrosse, too, like, you know, you're trying

to basically get a guy on this wrong foot or whatever.

So I think it was in there from a deception standpoint.

And that just to me, like,

and then like started playing basketball,

fell in love with it.

Like the first Air Jordan One, Spike Lee commercial.

There you go, now it's coming out, now it's coming out.

I was in the eighth grade when I started playing,

or seventh grade summer going into eighth grade.

I was like, this world's amazing.

And then, let's also just be real. I wanted to be Black. [laughs]

Listen...

All the best players in the world were Black, all the best rappers.

-Listen... -So I'm trying to emulate anyone

who had something about 'em. Right?

Something that had some, you know, some way to deceive.

Just the beautiful handle--

It's so funny you say that

because you say the same shit about AR,

-[Steve laughs] -there's no way,

you learned that in fucking Arkansas. It's like, like Markieff Morris,

we call him Smooth on the team. He was like, "No, fuck that.

I'm not believing you from Arkansas, you gotta be from New Jersey or wherever."

All of that? You got that bop bop?

You didn't learn that shit in Arkansas.

No, but that's the thing I'm sure he like me was like,

"I wanna do more with the ball.

I wanna to be able to beat better players off the dribble.

You want to emulate the greats.

And for me, that was an exciting way to play

was like watching, you know,

Hardaway Killer Crossover or Kenny Anderson

or these guys I grew up watching who were wizards with the ball.

You know, like Isiah was my hero.

Just like, you know, his handle was amazing.

His ability to create space shots.

So that's what I wanted to be, right? I wanted to be that.

So I would be out there practicing all the time.

Trying to, you know, and then you go play and you're trying to do it,

and you start getting a little success with it and you build on it.

And I think like eventually just playing

and recognizing all I need is my hesi.

I can just show, you know?

Oh, you don't, you're not coming? One more.

You're not coming? One more. Oh, you're too close, gone, right?

It made the game simple. I didn't have, like I said,

to make too many dribble moves.

I could pull, I could go left, I could go across,

-you could do it outta the right hand. -[LeBron] Yeah.

So I preferred playing outta my left. It was more like natural for me.

-But I think, funny enough, -[LeBron laughs]

because I sprained my ankle like in the 10th grade

and refused to take time off.

So like I went from a left-foot jumper,

not that I was ever a jumper but left foot jumper to a right foot jumper

just 'cause this ankle still to this day is not as the same, not as good.

I just never went, I was like, I'm playing through this six weeks,

-I should be sitting down. -Yeah.

And so I think I just was better pushing off my right.

So I preferred playing outta my left.

-And it's funny how all these things -Right.

-add up to something. -Yeah.

I learned to play outta my right, of course, through right hand.

But like that saved me so much as a player.

Energy, simplicity, like getting myself in trouble.

Pick and roll setups.

-Same as the hip swivel. -[LeBron] Yeah. Yeah.

Like I never wanted to turn my back as a six,

some barely over six-foot guard.

I don't want to have my back to the basket.

I want you to always feel the pressure I'm putting on you.

So if I ever did have to turn my back,

-it was only to get back around. -[LeBron] Right.

So one of the things I did was, it really a hesi, is a hip swivel.

-[LeBron] Yeah. -So one, two.

-Yep. Pop. -[Steve] Pop pop.

And then what are you gonna do? You gonna come up tight.

I'm gonna go by you.

-Yeah. -You fall off. I got the pull-up.

If I feel like you think you know what's going on,

-hard yank it back. -Yeah.

You know, so it all just kind of developed

out of necessity.

And then realizing how efficient I can be playing out of hesitation.

It really helped me in pick-and-roll setups too.

'Cause I would just play one-one-one.

I wouldn't tell you the screen's coming.

Yeah, for sure.

As soon as you start, so if I go,

I'm gonna lean it one way, you going the other way.

A hundred percent.

And my belief in the pick-and-roll is, and they say this as kids,

but we don't really, I don't think, drill 'em down enough.

For me the pick-and-roll was made in the setup

-because that gave me space. -[LeBron] Mm-hm.

If you couldn't touch me when I'm coming off, I got you leaning.

So that sometimes would be split

right between before the screen, not after.

Go by 'em this way one time just to put 'em on guard right?

I might go by you now you don't, it's hard to press up.

It's hard to press up.

[Steve] So you got the reject,

you got the just go play out of the hesi,

but essentially just trying

to set your defender up to not be able to get into you.

And so then what, what does that do?

So now I'm off.

He can't touch me.

Now the big is isolated.

-Now it's me and you, okay? -It's over with.

And then the roller's going.

And you're taught to drop with the roller.

Well, if you don't, someone's coming in,

I got the corner. I still got the iso in the big,

so getting that yard of space is

where the guard can't shove you allow the big to drop.

-Now the big is nailed-- -[LeBron] Mm-hmm.

-They have to guard you. -[LeBron] He's toast.

Now I'm in charge. I can hard dribble pole.

I can do my Gretzky.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I can, you don't want to come, I can bait you-- floater.

-And of course pocket pass. -Yeah, of course.

Guy from the corner comes.

But to me, it all started by just playing out of the hesi.

Getting him leaning. Oh, off I go.

You're not attached.

And then, you know, a coach says... [hands clapping]

-"Stay attached" -[LeBron] Mm-hmm.

"Stay attached." So I'm gonna use that against you.

-[LeBron] Yep. -So one foul, you know, two--

-Sent to the bench. -[Steve] You sit next to coach.

-So now we're playing-- -Yep

Now I'm trying to get inside your head

Now I know you don't want to get a second one.

Even if you're faking it for coach.

So then I might be like, "Oh, I'll let you win on the hesi."

So here you come, follow me. Stop, hit.

-[LeBron] Yeah. -Fall over. Two.

Sit down. So that you know, you're getting in the head.

So trying to just use the hesi to be able

to get off clean on a pick-and-roll.

Now the pocket's huge, 'cause that big's dropping.

He's isolated on me. He thinks I'll go by him and the roller.

So he's dropping. No one can contest the pocket.

It's my world.

I can exploit it how I want.

And you've created so much more opportunity for the other four guys now

'cause now you've already got your guy off of you.

It's a chain of events that happen.

Now the big is looking at his guard that was guarding you.

He's off the body.

So he's like, "Shit, I gotta protect you more.

'cause you off Nash body."

Now the 2.9 guys like, now I gotta protect the big, he's in there.

Now it's, now it's just the-- Now it's just the numbers game.

Now I'm... Yeah.

-And then jump up to the corner-- -Yeah.

throw the big, you see Luka and you do all those

little things you can do.

You know the X out guy, he's there and the thing,

so it's this one or that one, whatever it is but...

you are in charge and you know the rotations.

And if all else fails, you know,

I would do the stop, let 'em run me over.

Or sometimes let him fight.

Just give 'em enough space to try to fight through and pull up.

-[exclaims] -[LeBron] Yeah.

You know, so you just had all these little tools to try

to make the defender be less aggressive, be a little on edge.

'Cause when they're on edge, you can want inside out

and you're gone the other way.

-Yeah, peeking at me. -[Steve] Yeah.

Trying to see where the screen is coming from now and the reject happens.

And whether it's like they know

it's the 10th time in a row, we're running angle. That's fine.

I never like give it away.

Or sometimes give it away, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

So just always making the defender feel like,

-I don't know what's coming next. -Yeah.

I think that really helped me make it simple.

-Yeah, for sure. -To exploit.

I see you doing the same thing.

You don't have to, you know, you can just use your size,

strength, and ability, but then the computer turns on.

Whatever you've created with your size,

now you can spread the ball over the gym.

-The deception game. -[Steve] That's it.

-Deception. That was it. -You was the master of the deception game.

I wasn't fast you know, like I was fast on the street.

I wasn't fast on the--

So, you know, like I had to be deceptive.

And that was, that was a huge, like the hesi,

the separation pick-and-roll,

like all that stuff just had a huge impact on

how I was able to be successful.

You've just broken the lesson.

Steve Nash just broke down for all the six-foot-two

and under guys that want to play the game.

That's it.

That may not be faster, stronger, more athletic.

You just broke it down on how you can still,

you know, master your craft and be, it's a deception game.

And also make hundreds of shots a day.

'Cause if you can't shoot, you can't play.

Especially today. You can't shoot,

you can't play today for sure.

Especially 'cause you got small guys can't really guard.

You have to fake it till you make it. Couple maybe.

How many small guys in our league can really guard?

'Cause the size. Space.

Guys gonna jump over, bully, whatever it is.

So you have to be able to shoot.

If you can make shots, it can keep you on the court.

And then like, that's the other part

I think that's what I love about today's game is

more people making plays.

So if you can also just make the simple one

Drive a close-out.

-Right. Start the blender. -Start the blender.

-Two-on-one over there. -Yeah.

-Just simple early. -Yeah.

Early simple like, if you can do that,

You can play on so many teams.

I don't know if people realize how much a simple...

you catch two-on-one.

The cadence between if you make the pass on time on target,

or if you hesitate how much it throws

the guy off from his shot, his rhythm.

Great point.

You can really break someone's rhythm by you know,

-'cause they're expecting swing-swing. -[LeBron] Yeah.

In your pocket as a rhythm skill, as a rhythm player.

Like, you know, that's part of it.

But also just in this league

-with the athletes, that split second-- -[LeBron] Yeah.

could be contested or uncontested.

-Uncontested. -It could be blocked or not blocked.

It could be a number of things leads to a turnover right?

-Even the pass to him... -Mm-hmm.

...that deflection.

If he catches it, if it's not out of bounds.

Stuck in the corner, you know?

-So being able to play simple, play quick, -[LeBron] Mm-hmm.

I remember my rookie year, Danny Ainge is my coach.

He's like, "Play quick, but don't hurry. Play quick, but don't hurry."

You know, I think as young players, we want to hurry,

-Mm-hmm. -We're in a rush to do things.

Whereas, like now when you've mastered the craft,

you do the games just slow, slow.

-Yep, it slows down. -You are moving the chess pieces.

-Instead of them moving. -Yep, exactly.

Exactly, exactly.

[upbeat chill music]

-It's not bad I mean-- -Yeah.

It's definitely-- It's a conversational wine.

Yeah.

-It's not bad though. -It's not bad.

It's not bad. It's a Tuesday night in Indianapolis at the--

-At the Thunderdome. -I'll take it.

Usually, snobby wine drinkers say no to this but we're down with this.

It's not bad.