Original subtitles

[LeBron] I don't know if it

-was intentional or not. -[JJ] I had wine people text me.

-[LeBron] Me too. -[JJ] Or DM.

Couldn't quite make out, I knew you were drinking the one Rousseau.

-What was the other one or... -[LeBron] Someone called me

last episode one.

They said, "He's not gonna waste a drop of that wine."

I poured you some, and was like, "I'm sorry, I didn't know

you wanted another glass," and mid-conversation,

I wiped the bottle, and licked my finger.

And they was, "Yeah, he's not wastin' a drop of that."

[both laugh]

[slow bluesy music plays]

[music continues]

Welcome back to Mind The Game with LeBron James

and me, JJ Redick.

This is episode three.

We're gonna be talking a little bit about the evolution of spacing in the NBA

during both LeBron's career and my career.

We're also gonna be talking about the evolution

of certain positions, certain cuts.

It's gonna be a great episode.

No, we have not upgraded to animation.

No, we don't have a whiteboard yet.

The whiteboard was sent to Los Angeles.

I'm recording this in Brooklyn,

so you're stuck with the paper, guys.

A few key concepts I just wanna review before we get to our conversation.

Just as a review from episode one, Floppy is a catch-and-shoot play.

It's very simple.

On either side of the lane, there's two bigs.

The point guard has the ball up top,

and the two wing players are underneath the basket.

The shooter can come out either side, make a play.

In the context of this conversation,

it's funny because LeBron James never runs Floppy.

So in this episode we talk about corner splits.

Think the Sacramento Kings with Chris Webber and Vlade Divac

as the passers.

Mike Bibby, Peja, Bobby Jackson, Doug Christie,

those guys as the shooters and cutters.

A more recent example was Rick Adelman

when he was in Minnesota in the mid-2010s.

Kevin Love, Kevin Martin, Ricky Rubio.

That's what these guys ran a lot of.

Corner splits is very simple.

By the way, by the way, I apologize.

A number of people have pointed out

that the defensive players are supposed to be

the X's and the offensive players

are supposed to be the O's. Here's the thing,

I've only had one coaching job in my life,

and that is coaching eight, nine, and 10-year-olds.

Now, when you coach eight, nine, and 10-year-olds,

it can be very confusing to have X's and O's on the court.

So I decided to draw X's

because they all thought the O looked like a basketball

and that confused them.

So for me, I draw my offensive players as X's.

All right, corner split,

there is a wing player in a corner.

The ball handler brings it up beside.

In this case, we're gonna bring it up the left side,

and the big, i.e. Vlade Divac, Kevin Love, Chris Webber,

is somewhere in the vicinity of the elbow or high post area.

You can occupy the weak side in a number of ways.

Have a guy in the corner, have a guy high.

You can have a guy in the corner or a guy

in the dunker spot because I don't love the dunker spot.

We'll put the other guy in the high quadrant.

Point guard brings it up.

He would hit the big, Chris Webber, Vlade Divac,

at the high post.

He then goes into split action,

and as a reminder, split action is just when

two offensive players go to screen for each other off the ball,

and again, they can cut, they can curl, they can set a back screen,

or a rip screen.

A rip screen is the same thing as a back screen.

Oftentimes, again, the meaning is in the word.

If I was to say, "I'm gonna go set a back screen for you,"

where would I screen your defender?

I would screen his back.

That's the same thing as a rip screen.

So in this case, this is Peja, this is Mike Bibby.

Mike Bibby can go set a down screen for Peja.

Peja has a number of options here.

He can curl to the basket.

He can back-cut.

He can chase the basketball.

He can come for a dribble hand-off.

In this case, let's say Mike Bibby sets a great screen.

Peja just comes off,

Vlade hits him, he hits a wide open jump.

That's corner splits.

All right, spread pick-and-roll,

all that means is there's nobody in the dunker spot.

There's nobody in the paint.

All five players are spread across the perimeter.

Depending on where the pick-and-roll is located,

let's say it is up top, the ball handler here,

you have a guy in each corner,

this is a right-handed player, so we want to go to the single side,

so we'll put this guy in the high quadrant,

and then, the screener would then come set a pick-and-roll.

Again, everyone is spread out.

Nobody is inside the paint.

The opposite of this, of course, would be, let's say this guy will eliminate him

and put him in the dunker spot.

That is no longer a spread pick-and-roll.

That's just a pick-and-roll.

5-out delay.

Again, the meaning is in the word 5-out.

Five outside of the three-point line, 5-out.

This is, I think, one of the biggest revolutions

evolution in today's NBA.

You no longer see

two people run to either block

as you did for a long time in the NBA.

You still see it some in college.

You certainly see it some in high school.

5-out is how most NBA teams play.

It's not necessarily a play as it is a set and a concept.

So, for the purposes of this,

let's say it's off a miss.

Everybody's sort of run.

You get two guys in the corner,

one guy on the wing, ball handler bringing it up,

and the trail guy who got the rebound,

or who took it out, is running down the center of the floor, okay?

Within that, you can get to a number of options.

You can play a step up pick-and-roll here.

You can run a stagger screen away, a stagger screen.

Again, it's in the word.

Two players, they stagger, one screen, two screen.

You can run away action.

Away action, again, meaning is in the word.

You go away from the basketball.

You screen away like this, boom.

That's DeAndre Jordan screening for me.

That's Brook Lopez screening for Kyle Korver.

That's just away action.

A lot of teams...

will hit the five men, though, at the top,

and then, they will get into split action.

Delay is just another name for 5-out.

Again, because I've got a white piece of paper,

and not a whiteboard, I can't go over

every single option out of this,

but this is the essential idea

of 5-out or delay.

Okay, the short roll, this is one of

the most important concepts in today's NBA.

It's a big part of this conversation as well.

Let's just go back to that spread pick-and-roll, okay?

So within that spread pick-and-roll,

the five-man is going to set a screen for the ball handler

to get to his right hand, okay?

And let's say the help side is here,

here, strong side,

strong side, ball side,

is there.

The big is up in the pick-and-roll,

and the guards and the defender of the point guard

is right there.

As this guy comes off,

they put two on the ball.

The short roll is essentially the area between,

call it the restricted area and the three-point line.

So at any point in time,

if you get the ball to the five-man in this area,

that forces a reaction from the defense.

Now, this guy almost always will pull over as the low man.

He's the lowest guy on the floor.

He's the low man.

That's his responsibility to protect the rim.

This guy, as we discussed, sometimes will drop here,

and he will essentially have responsibility on these two guys.

Once the ball is in this area,

this is the short roll area.

Anywhere, again, between restricted and the three-point line.

The short roll area is where today's big man makes plays.

A lot of guys are not shooting necessarily right here.

They're not short rolling to shoot this shot.

They are short-rolling to either shoot a floater, à la Jokić,

to make this cut, this pass to this cutter,

or to spray out to this man for a three.

That's the short roll.

Another concept we talk about is the Slot Cut.

Just to be clear here, the slot is another word

for the high quadrant.

It's another word for the wing.

In a spread pick-and-roll,

the slot is considered the guy on the wing.

You have the corner, the corner, and the two people in pick-and-roll.

So this would be the slot right here.

The Slot Cut is simply a time cut.

Let's say the ball handler turns the corner,

the big rolls, the defense reacts.

It's a time cut out of this slot

to get the ball in this area, the paint, the rim, whatever.

Go dunk the basketball.

Now, you can also, let's say you're posting the ball here.

You can have a Slot Cut out of the post.

A Slot Cut is just a cut from this slot area.

Thank you, guys, again for watching, for listening.

LeBron and I have really enjoyed recording these episodes,

talking basketball, and I hope you guys

have learned something and enjoyed it as well. Appreciate you.

This is episode three of Mind the Game, Evolution.

[slow bluesy music plays]

-[JJ] Cheers. -[LeBron] Cheers, bro.

[JJ] Very much enjoyed the first episode.

-[LeBron] Absolutely. -I'm gonna ask you a question,

we can edit this out if need be.

I just wanna get the conversation started this way.

And that's great.

'Cause we were just talking about young guys,

and I felt towards the end of my career, once I had figured the league out,

and again, figured the league out,

-meaning like I had a job. -[both laugh]

You know what I mean? Not like I'm an All-Star.

But once I figured the league out,

I felt like I could tell within two or three days

of being around a young guy

whether he was gonna be all right in the league.

-Yeah. -Do you have that too?

-Mm-hmm. -Do you sense that?

Yeah, absolutely.

What are the markers for you, where you say, "This guy's gonna be good"?

Um, coaches and veterans being able to get on them

and there's no snickering, there's no backtalk,

there's no [smacks lips] "Eh," all of that.

It's just they almost look like,

just keep on coming with it, because I wanna see of how much I can,

I wanna see how much just keep on, keep on,

'cause I'm absorbing everything.

That's when you know, like,

"Oh, he's gonna be in this league for a long time."

One of the things that I always noticed was,

and I wasn't perfect at this when I was like a rookie, especially.

There's an element of fear,

meaning, once we step on the court, I'm not scared.

Right, right.

But there's an element of fear,

like I need to be in the training room on time.

Yeah, yeah.

I need to do all the lifts that my strength coach is telling me do.

-[LeBron] Absolutely. -If my PD, player development guy's

telling me, "Be on the court at 10 o'clock

for an 11 o'clock practice," that guy's there at 9:55 ready to go.

-For sure. -It's like the small stuff.

-Yeah. -[JJ] It's the small stuff.

-It is the small stuff. -We are recording this on Thursday,

opening day of the NCAA tournament,

Official opening day. I do not count the play-in.

I don't count the play-in either.

Not 'cause--

Even if I've been in the play-in as an NBA player,

I do not count the play-in.

I don't get-- it's not official.

'cause you're still playing in the tournament.

And your high school coach just got a big win

-about an hour ago. -Yes, he did.

What did you learn from him?

Oh my goodness.

I think the number one thing that I learned from him right away

is how to not only approach the game,

but also how to think the game

and also play at a level that was a lot harder

and determined than the AAU tournaments that I was playing in beforehand.

I got to coach Dambrot my ninth-grade year,

so my first year at high school.

First of all, back to the fear thing,

when you go from middle school to high school,

you already terrified of what lies ahead.

You don't know what to expect.

You know, obviously in Ohio you have sixth,

seventh, and eighth and middle school.

So you have that feeling going to middle school from the fifth, sixth grade,

you have that fear of older people in the schools

and how is it gonna affect you and things of that nature.

And then you go to the high school and you see kids with beards

-and you know? -[chuckles]

Teachers, they just look so much more massive, you know?

And I'm going to a coach that is a former college basketball coach

and you hear the stories.

I mean, you know 'em firsthand probably, or maybe you don't because you were great,

so you hadn't have to do everything.

But I heard the stories of like, 5:00 AM wake-ups

to go run the mile or you know...

-This was your high school coach? -This is my high school coach.

-This is my high school coach. -Interesting.

This is my high school coach.

You hear the stories of like, one mistake,

everyone's gonna run until the coach gets tired.

And in my head, I'm like, "How in the hell

does a coach get tired if he's not running?"

So you're like terrified of all of this, you know?

So the one thing, back to your question that I learned from Coach D

is that we're gonna practice perfection every single day.

Every single day he always used to tell us the practices

are gonna be way freaking harder than the games.

And you don't understand that every time the coach said "Get on the line,"

that's a universal word right there,

or universal term right there "get on the line,"

you know, that's the last thing you want to hear

as a basketball player to get on the line.

But he was super strict,

he was super demanding.

He would get in your face, call you outta your name.

There were kids whose parents used to come to practice

and he would call them out of their names right in front of their parents.

My sophomore year, my freshman year,

we win the state championship, we go 27 and O,

I was MVP of the tournament.

Obviously Maverick was our captain my freshman year.

My sophomore year, the first practice I was...

Came in as projected number one player in the state of Ohio,

I was projected to be all-American as a sophomore,

projected to be Mr. Basketball as a sophomore,

which had never been done in Ohio high school history.

And the first practice we had at our sophomore year

after winning state championship,

I did absolutely nothing wrong coming out of football,

he kicked me outta practice.

[JJ chuckles]

He kicked me outta practice,

I had no idea why the fuck he kicked me outta practice.

And I think he was just setting the tone for the season.

-Yeah. -Like, "Wherever the fuck

or wherever you think you are,

yeah, I've heard all of this stuff about how great you are

things like, nope, I'm gonna humble your ass right now."

He kicked me outta practice and the last thing he said to me

when he kicked me out,

he said, "Best sophomore in the country, my ass."

I love that.

I love that.

Setting the tone right away.

"Best sophomore in the country, my ass," and kicked me outta practice.

I actually think I had a healthy level of respect,

so I played varsity as a freshman, but actually my school,

middle school was sixth through ninth grade.

Really?

-I didn't go to high school yet. -Say that again.

It was sixth through ninth grade. We didn't have space.

So the year after I left, they built a second high school.

-Right. -They split in two,

they moved down to division, that sort of thing.

-Right. -Right.

I'm coming off eighth grade, I start JV.

-I grew seven inches that year. -Shit.

I learned how to shoot without my left thumb.

-[LeBron] Yep. -Started shooting a real jump shot.

I go to AAU Nationals in Florida, I average like 35 a game.

So I'm coming into freshman year

with a decent level of confidence.

And I knew my high school coach was tough 'cause my JV coach was so tough.

-[LeBron] Yep. -But I was brash and cocky.

You know the kid you saw at Duke earlier on?

Yeah, yeah.

I was that kid, I was that kid.

-Yeah. -And we were playing preseason,

we were just like doing pick-up.

So we would do these stations where you had like 30 seconds to a minute on.

-So 30 seconds to a minute on wall sits. -[LeBron] Yep.

Thirty seconds to a minute on D slides.

Thirty seconds to a minute on jumping jacks with weight, all this stuff.

And we'd do that for 30 to 45 minutes and then we'd play pickup.

So there was this senior named Kevin Conley.

And he... [chuckles]

He was good, but I also played his position

and he hadn't started the year before,

so he very much wanted to start a position.

-Yeah. -So we were playing pickup

and truthfully, Kevin, I was busting your ass.

Note taken.

And I started yapping off.

-Yeah. -And he said to me,

he said, "I'm gonna tell you right now, shut the fuck up."

-[chuckles] -He gave me the look,

mind you, I'm my size, but 155 pounds.

So I was like, "Oh, he's gonna kick my ass."

And I didn't say anything,

we checked the ball up as soon as somebody passed it,

he just popped me in the face, right?

-My jaw still pops to this day. -[LeBron chuckles]

And pretty much from that day on,

I had a healthy level of fear for high school.

A healthy level of fear.

Do you think there's anything for you--

I know for me, like I played for Coach K.

-Yeah. -I played for Boo Williams in AAU,

we talked about our coaching

and how important that was to us last time.

Do you think for you there was anything transferable

from what you learned in high school

to what you had to do in the NBA, especially early on?

From a coach's perspective or just from a player?

No, on the court, being a player on the court.

No.

Totally different game?

It was a totally different game.

But the nuance and the fundamentals

and the things that was being...

That was being taught to me as an 18-year-old,

I kind of had already knew a lot of that shit.

I mean, it's weird to kind of say,

'cause you feel like when you get to the NBA,

you're gonna learn so much more, which I eventually did.

And I think that came with like,

-we always talk about experience. -Experience.

The best teacher in life is experience, you know but when I got to the NBA,

the biggest adjustment I had was literally just going from like,

"Oh, shit, I don't have to go to class every day."

You know, I'm going from 27-game season to now 82.

So like, oh, shit, like after 27 games in the NBA,

You know, around about 32 games, I'm like, "I'm exhausted."

You know, so now like, what can I do to get the energy back going?

But as far as when I stepped out on the floor,

there wasn't too much of an adjustment.

I felt like I was physical...

enough, I felt like I had the size, I had the speed obviously,

I had the athleticism obviously.

You know, you have some of the vet tricks and things of that nature,

how to get away with certain things

that I had to kind of learn and whatever the case may be.

But then I was thrown around many positions in my rookie year too,

like at one point I was a two-guard at one point,

my first game in Sacramento I was coming off Floppies.

We'll get to that.

-Yeah. -We'll get to that in a bit.

Next thing you know we do make a change or whatever,

now I'm the point guard, it's like, you know...

Which is one natural position for me,

but also not a natural position, like, I love to pass the ball.

I love to bring the ball up,

but I've never really started at the point guard position.

So it's still very different.

But I was able to just kind of seamlessly

kind of just move right on in.

Figure it out on the fly a little bit.

Yeah, figure it out on the fly.

With the tournament going on right now, have you...

I re-watched episode one

and you talking about not going up to Ohio State for parties,

down to Ohio State for parties.

I was like, "I wonder if he ever thought to himself this time of year,

'I wonder what it's like to play March Madness.'"

-Absolutely. -You have?

Yeah, 21 years of not going.

[JJ] You're still thinking about it, every year?

Yeah. It's the only time though.

I was thinking about all the stuff you've experienced in basketball,

but you haven't experienced that?

This is the only time-- March Madness right now is the only time

I think about playing college basketball for 21 straight years.

I don't watch much college basketball.

This year, I watched a ton of it, 'cause Bronny's in college,

so I was there watching the game, but it's just,

it doesn't translate for me, it frustrates me.

My high blood pressure picks up.

I'm a Black man and high blood pressure's just not good for us

so I try to stay away from it but I love basketball

so I find myself watching it anyways.

But I literally, before we came in here, like you said, Duquesne won their game.

Big shout out to the Dukes' coach, Coach D,

my best friend, Dru Joyce.

Right after the game, I was watching Illinois versus Morehead State,

scouting 'cause that's who they play next.

Hmm. And you're gonna give him notes?

-Already did. -[laughs]

I already sent notes already. I got to watch like a quarter,

three-fourths of the game before we started,

and I'm already sending notes.

I'm a-- I'm a junkie, man.

Yeah, I'm well aware of that.

-[laughs] -Well aware.

I wanna talk about spacing today.

[laughs]

Do you, you mentioned coming off Floppy.

-Yeah. -In your very first game.

-Yeah. -Do you-- do you

specifically remember your two first, first two baskets of your career?

-I remember my first one. -Okay.

My first basket was coming off a Floppy action

and I faded to the corner by our bench

and received the ball over the top and hit a,

and hit a 17, 18-footer.

It's hilarious that you were running Floppy.

That's hilarious.

On that one, you came off

-and took the one dribble baseline... -Mm-hmm.

...C-Booze, after he set the screen,

kinda backed up into the pocket

-around the elbow. -Yup, yup.

There was like space, a little space.

On the second one, you came off the other side and curled

and Ricky Davis hit you with the elbow.

And I have this screenshot on my phone

and it's Z on the left block...

-[LeBron] Yep. -[JJ] ...C-Booze on the right block.

Darius Miles spotting up from about 17 feet at the right wing-ish.

-[JJ] But not really space. -[LeBron] Not really space.

[JJ] And Davis standing at the top of the key. It's like literally all--

-[LeBron] It's about nine people in the paint.

All just right there.

And then you drove back and hit a little fall away

-going left. -Yeah.

When did you start to feel like the spacing was changing in the NBA?

Um, you know, that's a good question.

I'm trying to think.

I think the spacing started to change in the NBA...

I think...

I think Stan Van Gundy had a lot to do with it.

You know, now that I think about it,

and I'm thinking, 'cause I'm in the-- I was in the East, and obviously, um,

you know, they had a lot of spacing,

you know, in Sacramento in the early 2000s,

but it, it wasn't a lot of spacing.

Maybe they just had some shooting.

Obviously, Mike Bib could shoot the ball, you know, Peja was shooting the ball.

-They ran Corner Splits. -Yeah, they run Corner Splits.

Vlade, you know, could play the elbow,

could play the corner, could hit the three at times.

You know, C-Webb from time to time

would space a little bit, but he was more in the post.

Bobby Jackson would fly off for shots.

But, you know, I don't-

I believe Stan with Dwight,

you know, kinda in that '07, '08', '09 kind of range,

they started to change it a lot, you know?

I hadn't seen that much space 'cause I played against the Detroit Pistons

and obviously, you had, you know, you had Rip on his Floppy down action,

you know, flying off the Floppy down

or the two chest or whatever the case may be.

But with Stan, I think he saw what he had in Dwight

and he started to build that team around him to like,

"I want nothing but space".

You know, and we saw that,

we saw it when Rashard Lewis got on that team.

We saw it when Hedo Türkoğlu got there.

You know, and then added Jameer, you know, and added just a bunch of space.

You, and you as well, like...

-Took a while. -Yeah, you know.

It took a while to use your superpowers, I'll tell you that.

It took a while for you to use your superpowers

or them to use your superpowers for the better of the team.

But, um, you know...

You know, even when Ray Allen was on Boston,

you know, in '08, it still wasn't a lot of space out there.

-KG was posting up. -[JJ] Rondo was not a shooter.

[LeBron] Tony Allen wasn't a shooter.

-[LeBron] You know, PP-- -They were playing two bigs.

Yeah. PP was a 3-level scorer.

-But they were playing two bigs-- -They were playing two bigs

if it wasn't KG and Perk, or KG and Big Baby or whatever the case may be.

Detroit was still playing two bigs even when Ben went to Chicago.

You know, they brought in-- they brought in Chris Webber.

Um, you know, so they were playing two bigs as well.

You know, I feel like, you know, Miami was still playing two bigs.

They was playing Shaq when he was there,

along with Udonis and Zo when Zo came back.

I feel like the Orlando, man, Orlando kind of was the, the first,

I wouldn't say the first 'cause there obviously--

Yeah, I think the precursor was, in my opinion, the Suns, right?

-Yeah. -The Suns were the first

-with D'Antoni. -With D'Antoni.

And Steve Nash, Marion at the four. Amar'e at the five.

Marion wasn't a spacer either, but he was so athletic,

he had so much speed that he created space.

-Yes. -You know.

-There's-- we-- we're gonna get to this. -Their pace.

-We're gonna get to this. -Yeah.

It's funny 'cause with the,

-with the Magic. -[LeBron] Yeah.

I'm not sure that was the intention.

-Now... -Right.

-[JJ] It ultimately played out that way. -Right.

But Tony Battie hurt his shoulder guarding Dwight in preseason.

And we tried Turk at the four...

-Right. -...in the preseason games.

-[LeBron] Right. -And he refused.

He's like, "Fuck this, I'm not going."

-"I'm not going anymore." -[overlapping chatter]

Yeah, yeah. So, so Rashard as a good teammate

and a true professional, unlike Turk.

[laughing]

He's like, "Fuck it, I'll do it."

-Yeah. -And that all, and then all

of a sudden it created an advantage.

And we ended up playing you guys in '09, the Eastern Conference Finals.

And by the way, I played nine minutes.

Nine minutes that series.

Second quarter.

Second quarter of game two.

But I got to watch some awesome basketball.

And it's weird, I've re-watched some of that series

and it is so apparent

that no matter what you did,

no matter what y'all did, we just had an advantage.

Yeah.

The whole season,

we geared our team up to play Boston.

[JJ clears throat]

Everything was geared to play Boston.

Everything.

We, we never practiced

anything besides two bigs, a point guard, a small and a small,

small forward and a shooting guard.

-And then, fuck, you guys win. -[JJ laughs]

And it's like we've geared up all, you know,

we had Big Z,

Anderson Varejão,

myself, Delonte, and Mo Williams.

I mean you guys are out there with Dwight, Rashard, Hedo,

Jameer,

-Piétrus, -Piétrus,

-Courtney Lee. -Courtney Lee.

You guys are out there with

-what the league is to now. -Yeah.

The league to now is like long wings, shooters,

and a guy that can screen, roll, lob,

and then you add on even more with Dwight.

'cause he could occasionally post up a small.

I think too, you know what I, looking back on that team

that I think was so important, 'cause I talk about this all the time now.

Jameer Nelson could shoot threes out of pick-and-roll.

Yeah.

[JJ] It's an important thing.

[LeBron] It is a very important thing for many reasons.

It unlocks everyone's offensive game.

If you can shoot threes off the dribble, it unlocks your game.

-Absolutely. -But also just for the offense,

now all of a sudden, you're forced to make a decision

in a Jameer Nelson, Dwight Howard, pick-and-roll.

-Hedo Türkoğlu. -Yeah.

If you go under him, 'cause you don't want him getting to his right hand,

you have to make a decision now.

-He's gonna shoot a three. -He's gonna shoot it.

We would run that angle pick-and-roll.

-We'd have a shooter in the left corner. -Yep.

-Turk go into his right hand. -Yep.

-Dwight rolling and two shooters. -[LeBron] And two shooters.

Where's the help coming from? And you can't switch it

'cause Dwight's gonna bury you, hit you with 19 elbows

and he doesn't care about getting one or two fouls off the elbows,

but he's gonna dunk you in the rim.

This is like super-duperman Dwight at the time.

I re-watched game five the other day and...

-I've never watched the series. -You haven't?

-No. -Very curious to get

your thoughts and what you remember about that series,

'cause this is what I remember and I was like,

-I'm gonna watch. -What was the series?

-[both] 4-2. -Yeah.

-Yeah. -4-2, yeah.

I didn't talk to the media after game six. I was pissed.

[JJ scoffs and laughs]

I took a shower and got straight on the bus.

-I remember that now. -I was pissed.

Game five, I was watching the fourth quarter.

Literally your offense, you didn't match up Hunt.

For the first part of the-- the fourth quarter,

you had two bigs in the dunker spot,

either dunker spot,

you had Mo or Delonte, at one point, it was Wally Szczerbiak

-spotting up. -[LeBron] Yeah.

[JJ] And you would post up Mickaël Piétrus

at like 19 feet and then try to go one-on-one.

It was really interesting to watch that

versus spread pick-and-roll with shooting and spacing.

Yeah, like how the fuck

-is he functioning with this? -And by the way,

this is not- this is not like a knock on Mike Brown at all.

-Right. -I'm not saying that.

It was just what we were doing

-was so different at the time. -Yeah.

And it wasn't like the next year everybody's like,

"Oh, we're gonna try to emulate what Orlando did."

Right.

2011, I'll never forget this game.

We played against the Minnesota Timberwolves in our new arena.

And that's when we had Ryan Anderson and Rashard.

And we would get to our spread pick-and-roll.

And it didn't matter where Ryan or Rashard was,

they would tag Dwight

-with Kevin Love, the 4-man, -[LeBron] No matter where he was.

No matter where he was. If he's the high guy...

-[LeBron] He's taking him to the rim. -[JJ] ...on the double side,

They're tagging him at the rim

and Ryan and Rashard are sitting there teeing him up.

-It's bizarre. -It's super bizarre.

I'm not gonna gas you up.

I'm gonna say one thing, though, real quick.

You average 38, 8, and 8 in that series

with that offense and that spacing.

-With no space. -[JJ laughing] With no space.

It was wild.

It is wild. Like I said, I have not watched

that series since it happened.

And to think that I damn near averaged 48

and 8 in a series with no space is,

and I-- obviously, if I caught a good heater,

I could make a couple of threes in a row, whatever the case may be.

-But that wasn't-- -That wasn't my thing.

I lived in the paint or in the post.

You didn't have your signature move then.

I didn't have my signature move then.

I was not di-- my, my--

I was not a disciplined jump shooter at that point in time.

Interesting.

What do you mean by that?

I-- if I was, uh,

I would shoot fadeaways for no reason.

I would be off-balance for no reason.

I would make shots more difficult for no reason.

And I'd envy guys that can go straight up and down

or could like shoot the same shot every time.

And it was just discipline.

I was so athletic that I could wheel myself.

Sometimes there's like old clips of me

that I watch or come across my timeline on social.

Yeah. Well, hold on.

Bro, it's okay.

-I see the clips-- -We all-- no, no, no.

I don't just go online and look up LeBron James highlights.

We all watch our own highlights on YouTube.

-[LeBron laughing] -LeBron,

-LeBron, -I'm telling you.

You've never gone on YouTube.

-Yes, I have. Of course I have. -[JJ laughing]

I said from time to time, they come through.

Of course I have. Especially, oh, by the way,

the number one reason you do that

-is when you hit like a slump. -Yes.

[both] Where's my game?

YouTube is the perfect place to find it.

March 2018 at Charlotte.

-Twenty-seven points, type it in. -[LeBron laughs]

-Let me see my game. -[both laugh]

-Absolutely. -We've all done it.

-Yeah. We've all been there. -We've all done it.

Um, when you guys got together in Miami...

Yeah.

...the conversations with Chris

-about his role... -Mm-hmm.

...but also the decision to sort of move him to the five,

which, by the way, was not right away.

No it wasn't.

Like, was there push-back on that at the time?

Do you remember, like, those conversations?

'cause you know, I know UD was-- was there,

-Joel Anthony was there. -Yep, yep. Yeah, my first year,

Big Z was there...

-Big Z-- -...and Erick Dampier

-That, that's- -Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Ima-- Ima tell you when it all changed.

Obviously, my first year there, you know,

played great basketball, got all the way to the finals, lose in the finals.

I played like shit.

Um, Spo is the reason

why we were a better team

and our team was more assembled properly.

That summer, he went to Oregon and hung out with Chip Kelly.

Oh, interesting.

When we lost to Dallas,

he went to Oregon and hung out with Chip Kelly

and learned to spread offense and tried to figure out if

he could translate that to basketball

and, don't know the super conversations that him and Chip had.

But I know when he came back to us,

he knew in order for us to reach our potential, one,

I had to be fucking ten times better than I was

in that previous June finals.

But Chris Bosh had to go to the five.

And...

CB being who he is,

there was no push-back.

There was no push-back.

He knew in order for us to reach our potential,

that CB would have to go to the five.

And we had to spread.

He had to start working on his corner three faithfully,

every day after practice, corner three, every day after practice.

We're gonna post you up. We're gonna get you your elbow catches.

Offense gonna run through you at times,

but in order to bring, you know,

the Tyson Chandlers out of the paint,

in order to bring the Roy Hibberts out of the paint,

in order to bring Tim Duncan out of the paint at times,

in order to bring Kevin Garnett out of the paint,

you gotta hit these corner threes.

You gotta at least be a threat.

And Spo knew it. He had that, he had that vision.

He went and learned, he said, "The way I-",

he said, "The way I coached in that finals vs. Dallas,

unacceptable."

I told myself the way I played, unacceptable.

And he came back with vengeance

and I was all locked the fuck in from start to finish.

But it was Spo.

I had a question about the Bosh spacing,

but because you just said that, was that the low point for your career?

Oh, for sure.

-2011. -The lowest.

Yeah. The lowest.

-Yeah. -The lowest.

What is it?

The Bosch spacing, what did that sort of unlock?

I'm, I'm curious, like, what were the actions?

What, what, what was the,

-the two man game? -Yeah.

-What were the reads? -The cutting.

-Slot Cut? -The Slot Cut.

-[JJ laughs] -The Slot Cuts.

The Slot Cuts, it unlocked the Slot Cuts.

It unlocked exactly what myself and D Wade thrive on,

dribble penetration Slot Cutting.

Pick and roll happens, you tag, Slot Cut.

-[JJ] Yeah. -[LeBron] It unlocked all that.

And we all know how great D Wade is on the baseline.

It's hard to cut behind the defense when x5 is standing there the whole time

because, you know, the offensive five is there, you know,

so, you hit me on a pocket pass.

Now, you know, I get a pocket pass from, from Chalmers or,

or from Norris Cole, you know, and now Bosh is in a strong corner.

Are you gonna leave him or not?

If you do, he gonna tag you.

And if not, when I roll, now you got x3

or x2 tagging on me on the roll and nine times out of ten,

that guy that's playing the elbow that's supposed to x to the corner,

he's x'ing out to the three-point line and D Wade's slashing right behind him.

It just, it unlocked so much for our offense.

And it gave myself and D Wade a transition.

We had this thing called the Mack Truck Lane.

So from basically from the block to the block.

So say, for instance, we stand on the free-throw line.

You got one block on one side, one block on this side.

I can picture a basketball court. We'll do it for the viewers.

-I'm not questioning JJ's expertise. -No, I know what you're saying.

First day of training camp, we had that whole thing taped off.

The bigs were not allowed to run in between the Mack Truck Lane

from the first day of training camp all the way to game one, prohibited.

You're not allowed--

you got, and if, and if I'm bringing the ball up

and the big is behind me, he can't cross the court,

he has to run wide behind.

This is all. This is all...

Spo is like,

he's-- he's that damn good.

Some Twitter sleuth will correct me on this,

and I will accept it if I'm wrong,

but in my mind,

when I think of 5-out or delay,

I think of the Miami Heat with Chris Bosh.

As...

maybe it wasn't the originator,

but the first time, I'm like, "Oh, this is--

this is different, and this is happening,"

-was the Miami Heat with Chris Bosh. -Yeah.

-[JJ] And it changed everything. -It changed everything.

Changed the whole team.

Then we added Ray.

-Shane. -[LeBron] Added Shane.

Added Mike Miller.

We added to spacing and CB could pass.

He could rebound and push.

There wasn't many fives at that time that was rebounding and pushing the break.

You see it all the time now, right?

-[JJ] Bam does it. -[LeBron] Bam does it all the time.

[JJ] Joker, of course.

[LeBron] Joker does it, it's like CB was pushing the break.

Okay, if he didn't have nothing early in trans. Boom.

Right to a DHO second side.

Swing. Swing.

Like...

he was a smart, he was just smart but I mean, obviously,

when you move

from one position where you're so dominant,

you think of CB

in Toronto, where he mainly played the four,

almost probably 95% of the time played before,

on average, 25 and 10 or 12.

The ball exclusively went through him in the mid-post.

Every single time.

-On either block, really. -Yeah

But it's remarkable that he changed that.

Yeah, he changed that.

The Slot Cut.

Can you explain...

the timing, the play, how it works?

We actually--

Because it's, it's, by the way, it is a,

it's now part of like, every team's

-vernacular and... -Yeah.

...and every team runs it now.

It becomes programmed into everybody's reads

-in pick-and-roll. -Yeah, and it's now is,

it used to not be a live cut.

I go back and watch college basketball and there's so many...

fluff cuts or...

cuts that don't do anything.

It's like, why are you making a cut towards the basket

and you're not even looking at the damn ball?

You know, so, the Slot Cut,

I started to make the Slot Cut when Mike Brown

took over for us in Cleveland.

We actually used to have a play.

When we got Mo Williams...

Mo Williams was one fast, quick motherfucker

off pick-and-rolls and another guy that

could shoot the three off the pick-and-roll.

We would run angle,

Mo Williams would have the ball left, left slot.

We would have a shooter in a strong corner going same side as him

and either Varejão or Z comes at the step up.

I take that back, sorry. No, strong side shooter,

strong side shooter in the weak corner.

Mo's job was to race the big.

Race to big, get around the big, get around to the baseline

and at the same time, as soon as I would see Mo race the big

to the baseline,

Anderson Varejão or Z, would come set a Rip Screen for me.

Blind.

The guy that's guarding me and the corner man couldn't leave

because it was a corner shooter, and I was Slot Cut at the same time.

It's an easy clip, we could find that clip easy,

and Mo would drop it to me

and I would either dunk it home or finish it or whatever the case may be.

We actually put that in one of our, that was one of our ATOs.

And then when I got to Miami,

I started to just see a lot of guys peeking.

A lot of guys with D Wade had a ball obviously,

he attracted a lot of eyes, he's a driver, whatever the case may be.

Instead of me standing out and shooting threes,

which at times I wasn't always comfortable

with shooting threes, I would see guys peeking,

and as soon as I would see my guy turn his head,

I will Slot Cut.

This is part of the reason it's really hard

-to guard spread pick-and-roll. -[LeBron] Yep.

And we'll put the clips up as well but

if...

the x's here are the offensive player, right?

-[LeBron] Correct. -And you're running this

-angle pick-and-roll. -[LeBron] Correct.

And let's say the big is in a drop, okay?

And this is the guard.

-This is the guard, right? -Yeah.

So...

if this guard

-turns the corner here... -[LeBron] Yep.

...right, on the big.

-Damian Lillard does this better-- -[LeBron] Especially going left.

[JJ] Especially going left--

This guy has to make some sort of decision.

Yep. He's coming to two nine.

This guy has to get into an exposition

and who the fuck is guarding this guy?

-Nobody. -Nobody.

-Right. -Nobody.

-So-- -That's the position I'm in a lot.

-The Slot Cut. -[LeBron] The slot.

-[both] Yeah. -The other one...

is this.

Which Golden State, when I think of this cut,

I think of Golden State,

which...

is essentially same formation.

Here's the defense, right?

Alright,

so... you put two on the ball, on Steph Curry and Draymond Green.

Which is the worst thing you can do.

Right. Right.

This guy's going to have to be the low man.

So Draymond rolls, Steph hits him right here.

This guy drops.

What's going to happen right here, LeBron,

as Draymond Green takes a dribble into the paint?

-It's a lob. -It's a lob.

[LeBron] It's a lob every single time and--

[JJ] It's a lob every single time.

-You and, and-- -You, and, you can't,

you literally can't put two on the ball!

You can't.

See, everyone thinks that...

putting two on the ball takes Steph out of the play.

The problem that you don't understand is

that you're now unlocking Draymond's superpower offensively.

Draymond's superpower offensively is the four-on-three game.

You put two on the ball, now Draymond has his four-on-three

and... I'm going to have

Iguodala in the pass,

now, Wiggs and Kuminga,

they're going to be in that opposite corner

and if you help up

too early,

there's going to be a lob and that is demoralizing

and... the number one thing, it's so much momentum, a half-court lob,

so much momentum.

When we used-- That's the worst court I've ever seen

I'm going to do the same formation real quick, the same set.

So, like, when we used to teach

-or learn- -[LeBron] Yeah.

How to guard, spread, pick-and-roll,

right?

We would, you would do this drill,

I'm sure you did this drill. So...

you know, here's the defense.

-Right? -[LeBron] Yep.

There's the defense and...

-as this guy comes off... -[LeBron] Yep.

...the low man pulls over, here's the basket,

the low man pulls over and this guy drops.

-[LeBron] Drops, yeah. -And the drill was always this.

-The ball handler would skip it... -[LeBron] Skip a corner.

-...and you would literally-- -[LeBron] Exile and get back. Yep, yep.

[JJ] But nobody does that anymore.

-They hit the short roll. -[LeBron] Yeah.

And the short rollers now, in today's NBA, if you're a big coming into the NBA,

what's your player development program look like?

It's literally playing out of the Short Roll.

Yeah, playing out of the Short Roll.

-Jared Allen. -[LeBron] Yeah.

For the last five years, what is he doing?

-[both] Short Roll. -Yeah, I mean, I mean,

especially with Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell,

they're going to attract so much,

you have to be able to play out of the Short Roll

and when you play out a Short Roll, it's not for you to score.

Yes, you have the ability to score but you have to read the game.

I think about Chris Bosh,

and it makes me think of Chet Holmgren

-a little bit. -Mm-hmm.

You guys probably run different stuff

but in a way, what makes OKC so good

is their ability to drive the basketball,

And then kick and then drive the basketball and then kick,

and they did this last year.

This is how they played last year when they were 42 and 40

and then all of a sudden, Chet comes in.

-Yep. Yep. -And it unlocks everything.

The same way, I'm not comparing Chet to Chris Bosh's like--

-[LeBron] Nope. But to unlock the most-- -[JJ] But to unlock how you,

-how you maximize the offense. -[LeBron] Yeah.

[JJ] You need Chet on that team.

For sure. No question about it.

He changes the dynamic of everything.

You know, they have a one set that they run off

of all free throws

-where... -[chuckles]

...Chet takes the ball out, they send two guys to the other end,

both of them sit in the corner,

and...

Chet takes the ball out

and now Shea has got, he has it on the right wing

or the left wing or whatever the case may be,

and normally,

the X5's job is to load to the ball

and stop Shai from driving the 45, driving the slot.

That's your job. Load. Get to the body. Load.

OKC now, because there's another guy back there,

at the same time that the big is trying to load on Shai,

there's a guard that's flaring Chet to the opposite slot.

Do you know how hard that is?

They're flaring a seven footer to the opposite slot.

Right.

I mean, there's ways to guard it.

I'm not going to say it now because we may see him in the playoffs.

I'm not going to give that coach their opportunity to prepare for it

but that's very difficult when you have a guy like Shai who's

going to get to the line

eight to 12 times a game,

and or-- or J Dub, who's now turned into a

-fucking great-- -He's a star!

-He's a star. -I told him too, I said, man,

I said, "Boy, you, you out here killing!"

He's like, "Man, I had a hell of a summer."

He came to me and said, "You know, my younger brother

played against Bronny last night." His brother goes to Colorado.

-Cody. -Yeah, Cody.

And I said, "That's crazy, man. Yeah,"

I said, man, "Hey, keep going, bro, you killing this shit," he was like,

-"Man, I had a hell of a summer." -He's one of those guys,

he's, right now,

-not many holes in his game. -Right.

He's pretty damn good

-at nearly everything. -Yep.

He's one of those guys, you know, he's 22 now, I believe.

-Shit. -[JJ] 23?

That's it?

In four or five years, you're like,

"Oh, no, that guy has no holes in his game." Zero.

-Yeah. -[JJ] Zero.

I want to-- before we talk more spacing,

I want to touch on one last thing with the Heat

and that is,

I feel like

in the NBA,

the phrase super team or the term super team

is-- is a little bit, bit of a misnomer

because you can have... you can have a big three,

right?

You still need

four or five

ancillary role players...

-Absolutely! -...to star in their role

and then complement the stars.

No question about it.

And it doesn't work,

it doesn't work unless you have those guys

and you've lived it multiple times.

I've lived it.

I've lived it, I mean, obviously, my-- my first year in Miami,

yeah, we had a big three and everyone said it's a super team.

Super team this, super team that.

But we had to build our team around all minimum guys,

which was still okay

but we didn't fill out the complimented guys enough.

Yeah, we had Rio, we had Udonis,

you know, but we didn't-- we didn't have enough

as far as enough complimentary guys to actually make

it all work and we still made it to the finals.

We still made it to the finals and--

probably should have won the finals but I still give credit.

It is what it is. You win and you lose, and we lost.

Just know Dallas was fucking good and they

hit a stride at the right time. Dirk was unbelievable.

But my second year,

we was able to grab some complimentary players

and role players that really just,

I'm talking about super-- superstars in their roles

and it goes back to my first year in Cleveland.

My first year in Cleveland, yes, we got Kevin out of a trade.

We lost in the finals.

We wasn't really whole to unlock everything.

We wasn't whole enough to unlock everything.

Then we was able to add Channing Frye,

add Richard Jefferson to that, to that second team,

add those guys and then the experience that we had

from the year previously, you know, JR got better and Shump,

you know, and obviously, we were healthier, you know?

Kyrie goes down in the finals with a busted kneecap and Kev

obviously separated his shoulder in year one but

you're absolutely right,

the complimentary guys are ultimately the ones that

will help you win the championship for sure.

-Yes-- -Classified as a-- as a--

-as a real super team. -[JJ] Right.

So...

I think-- I think, you know, the goal of, of this show

is to really just, like, talk about basketball, right?

-I love it. -And it, and it's great

-and I love it. -I love it!

-And I could do it all day. -Me too.

You know, I,

we both live online, let's be honest, we live online.

We're well aware of all the discourse, I--

I have to participate in the discourse and,

-and I said this-- -Oh, I want to participate

-so much more. -I said this the other day, I was like,

"The discourse has a place," right?

It provides a level of entertainment. And I get it.

And I feel like sometimes...

I get annoyed

at...

a couple keywords that get involved in discourse

and we're not going to do this every episode, we're not gonna,

we're not gonna do this but I-- I just-- on this point we're making

-about how a team works. -Yep.

There's, there's the,

the word "important."

Who's the more important player for the Boston Celtics?

Who's the most important player for the Boston Celtics?

I also get annoyed with the word pressure, right?

Those are the two words that drive me fucking crazy.

Pressure in particular,

because if you've, if you've like, been around,

you know that most guys in the NBA

put an insane amount of pressure on themselves.

That's why we all have fucking anxiety.

Like, we all put so much pressure on ourselves

and the "important" word bugs me because...

the best player is always the most important player.

It's very hard to win in the NBA

if the player who has the most out-sized impact

isn't at his best and no offense, 2011 is a great example of that.

-I wasn't at my best. -You weren't at your best

-and you lost, right! -If I played anything like I did

-in Eastern Conference Finals, we win. -But...

you could have been at your best,

and the role players could have been bad.

So, like, for me, this is why I get annoyed

cause I'm like,

yeah, like, when I played on the Clippers,

CP and Blake, they were the most important guys on our team

but DeAndre and I had a role, Jamal had a role, Matt Barnes had a role,

Luc Mbah a Moute the next two years had a role.

Like, we all had an important role

and guess what, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves...

Yeah.

...to actually play well and actually contribute to winning.

And I feel like we live in this fucking 2K world

where we're, like, putting a roster together, and it's like,

"How can we put as many good players that don't even make sense

-together?" -Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it drives me crazy.

It's like, "What's wrong with this team?" Well, it's very simple,

basketball is a very organic thing,

and the players and their skills

-have to compliment each other. -Have to compliment each other.

And Chris Bosh is a great example of that,

the sacrifice to figure out, "How can my skills,

and maybe I have to develop some of those,"

you mentioned the three-point shooting, "How can I figure out how to complement,

it's going to make me better, it's going to make LeBron better,

it's going to make D Wade better, and it's going to make our team better,"

-and that's basketball. -And that's basketball but,

but that also comes from a-- to go back to episode one,

basketball IQ as well.

Him having the basketball IQ and the knowledge of saying,

"Yeah, I could still be in Toronto averaging 25 and 12,

but I didn't come here for that shit.

I came here to win championships, and...

we fucking lost in year one.

What can I do to compliment my teammates

and what can I do to broaden my game out to where we don't lose in year two?"

Fucking talk about growth mindset and everyone's talking about,

you know, "Chris Bosh was this before that."

No one ever asked Chris Bosh.

No one ever asked Chris Bosh

about how he feels.

Everyone just speaks for him.

No one asks him how he feels.

He knew he was making a sacrifice.

We all knew we was making sacrifices,

but we knew what the hell, what the fuck we all came together for,

and that was to win championships and that's what we did.

[slow bluesy music plays]

No, for sure.

Swing, swing, swing. Okay, drive the baseline.

Okay, boom. I'm tapping the box.

I'm tapping the box. Reverse the feat.

Throw it back out. Okay, now I'm back.

Okay, when we drive from the slot, slot man, you come, drive from the slot.

Guy drops down, he peels.

Crack the big. Throw it back out, now we back out.

But, like, simple things, like-- simple things, like--

[conversation continues indistinctly]

[slow bluesy music plays]

[JJ] Hey, guys, thanks for listening, thanks for watching

Mind The Game podcast.

If you like it, hit that subscribe button. Thank you.

[slow bluesy music plays]

[music fades]