Original subtitles

[bluesy theme playing]

[JJ] First of all, dude, I'm so excited to have this conversation with you.

[LeBron] It's gonna be fun. It's going to be fun.

[JJ] I just want to, before we start...

I wanna make sure we're on the same page with like why we're doing this, right?

[LeBron] Mm-hmm. Thank you.

[JJ] I'm thinking, like the core, it's gotta be, what nothing else is.

We're just...

-we're celebrating the game. -Yep.

[JJ] So I think overall, like, I want it to feel comfortable, relaxed.

-I want it to strike a very positive tone. -[LeBron] Yep.

[JJ] I typically rant about things,

-I'm gonna probably rant today. -[Lebron laughs]

It just comes out naturally, like whatever.

[LeBron] Let's do it.

[bluesy theme continues]

Welcome to Mind the Game with LeBron James and JJ Redick.

This is a new podcast

presented by Uninterrupted and ThreeFourTwo Productions.

I wanna be clear here.

This is a basketball show.

This is a show with the intention and purpose

to celebrate the game, promote the game, explain the game.

We will be covering a number of topics, not just the NBA.

NCAA, men's and women's, WNBA... FIBA.

LeBron and I are two people who...

I would call us obsessed with the game of basketball,

with this sport that has given so much to us.

And two weeks ago, we sat down in L.A. to record the first two episodes.

The first episode actually asked a simple question,

"What makes a great basketball player?"

Beyond just talent and skill set.

And we touch on a number of things that we think,

that we think make a great basketball player.

This is about creating separation.

Once you get to the highest levels,

everybody has talent.

Everybody has skill.

How do you separate yourself?

One of the things we talk about is basketball intelligence.

In some ways, it's a nod to the title of the show.

And we posit the question,

"Can you learn basketball intelligence?"

"Can you learn and develop basketball IQ, or is it innate?"

And I would argue, of course you can.

Of course, you can develop basketball intelligence

through film study, through great coaching,

and of course, through the number one teacher, experience.

And I think that's an important thing to note.

I was fortunate to play 15 years in the NBA.

It was a hard 15 years of being a plumber.

But I had a great experience, and I learned so much about the game

and I had great coaches and I had great teammates.

LeBron, of course, has played the game at the highest level for 21 years.

His experience is valuable. His basketball IQ is valuable.

One thing to note, if you are listening to this podcast,

we also have a video podcast available on social and YouTube.

And in those videos, we will be showing

the exact basketball concepts that we are talking about.

Episode one actually has

a few different basketball concepts that we talk about.

Episode two is a little more granular, a little more X and O.

But episode one, we do talk about Thumb Down.

What is Thumb Down?

Thumb Down, is simply a high screen and roll.

A high pick and roll.

Thumb Down angle, which LeBron references,

is just when that pick and roll is angled to a side of the floor.

So it's not in the center of the floor, it's either in that left high quadrant

or that right high quadrant, closer to the sideline.

So Thumb Down angle,

would simply be a ball handler with the ball.

A player in either corner.

Another player in the high quadrant, opposite the ball.

And then the screener.

And again, these two guys can play pick and roll,

and you play out of that.

By the way, a lot of teams call high pick and roll something different.

Not every team calls it Thumb Down.

I know when I played for Stan Van Gundy, and the Orlando Magic, we had Thumb Down,

which was a high screen roll with the five-man, the center.

We also had a screen and roll called Thumb Up,

which was with the four-man.

LeBron, by the way, will reference X4 and X5.

Some teams call the four man, X4.

Some teams just call 'em four.

Some teams call the five-man, X5.

Some teams call the five-man, just five.

Horns Chest is another play that we talk about.

Horns Chest is when two offensive players are in both corners.

And then two offensive players

are directly above the elbow or free throw line area

at the three-point line creating almost like a horns.

And then the point guard plays off of that.

So the point guard can dribble off either side.

The point guard can also throw the ball

to one of the players at the horns and they can get into screening action.

This is Horns, very simple.

Ball handler, a player in either corner, and then two players up here.

A lot of times, this guy will be the five-man,

this guy will be the ball handler,

and this guy will be the scorer or the shooter.

Boston Celtics, by the way, when they run their Horns action, a lot of times,

the five man is spaced to one of these corners,

and they involve Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum,

and either Jrue Holiday or Derrick White.

Horns Chest is a very simple play so,

let's say this is LeBron, and this is D'Angelo right here,

and this is the X5, this is the five-man.

D'Angelo would dribble off of a LeBron screen right here.

And then the five-man would then set a chest screen

or a flare screen for LeBron to this side.

And that's ultimately where the ball would go.

Another play we talk about is Floppy, which is a play that I ran all the time.

I'm not actually sure why it's called Floppy.

I do know that the visual for Floppy was this.

So I think Floppy means you can basically go to either side.

Floppy is when a catch and shoot offensive player

goes underneath the basket, and there's two bigs, one on either side,

that can screen form,

and he looks to come off of screens on either side

and catch and shoot the ball.

This is just a simple Floppy action.

So you have the two bigs,

let's say this is the five-man, this is the four-man,

this is the point guard.

And then you have the two wing players underneath the basket.

And let's say the two is the shooter.

He can come off either side for a catch-and-shoot.

He could also come off the five-man, catch-and-shoot.

And honestly, this is gonna get a little discombobulated.

I know when I played with Matt Barnes in Philly,

we would just dance in circles in here and then I'd shoot out one of these sides.

When I think about the game of basketball,

I regard it as so important.

I care for it.

I love it.

I wanna pay attention to it. I wanna learn more about it.

The game is constantly evolving.

And hopefully,

these discussions and conversations that LeBron and I have,

sometimes with other basketball players and basketball people.

Hopefully, we can do that.

Hopefully, we can teach and explain and celebrate.

Hopefully, we can mind the game.

[bluesy theme playing]

-[JJ] What'd you bring? -Well, we're gonna start off...

I brought two bottles. Chambertin 2012, I bought this...

this is special.

My first championship year.

Very special to me.

-It's a good vintage in Burgundy. -Very, very good vintage.

And then a Lynch-Bages '95.

I just bought that, just felt like that's a nice little aftershock.

But I'm gonna open the 2012 Chambertin

and then we can just, if that's okay with you.

-It's more than okay with me. -I heard you a wine guy, too.

Well, I told you this.

We were originally supposed to record

this first sit down in New York.

So in anticipation of that,

I actually brought three bottles of '89 Leroy,

Clos de la Roche, to the office. And obviously,

some things came up. We didn't make it work so--

-[cork pops] -That's a great sound, by the way.

We're both on the same page.

-Absolutely. -Which I love.

It's funny, I called your game Wednesday night, against the Clippers.

You had just an insane fourth quarter.

And I was talking about, as it relates to you,

competitive stamina.

Which is simply the ability to do something at a high level

and then get up the next day and do it again.

And for you,

that's happened season after season, year after year.

I think the best players have a level of competitive stamina,

and it's one of three qualities for me

that make a great basketball player.

'Cause your quote after the game, it was,

"I know I was born with some gifts and athletic abilities,

-but that only gets you so far." -For sure.

What are the qualities for you

that make a great basketball player?

Beyond just talent, and skill set, and size?

Knowing the history of the game.

Knowing the history of the game, knowing the ones that came before you,

knowing the ones that paved the way.

Knowing the reason why you're actually...

having the ability to actually live out your dream.

That doesn't happen without the people that came before you.

It doesn't happen without Bill Russell.

Going through what he went through,

during the civil rights movement and those things.

Oscar Robertson going on with what he had to deal with,

you know, during those times. It does not happen,

if they're able to just be pure in who they are,

that allows us to now perform

and do it with no care.

Also, I think discipline at...

People... you know what, people use that word so loosely.

What does it mean to you?

You have to...

have the ability-- when it comes to discipline it's like,

you have to sacrifice loved ones.

[both laughing]

You have to sacrifice loved ones for a long period of time,

if you want to be great.

It is very unfortunate.

And you feel it at times.

You know the saying, "If it's too hot, get the hell outta the kitchen."

Sometimes you just gotta get out of the kitchen, 'cause it gets hot.

But you have to have a discipline to,

sometimes you have to sacrifice loved ones

in order to be great, because they don't understand.

And that's okay. They don't understand what it means to,

like, I am getting up every single day at 5 or 6:00 am.

And when I get home after everyone leaves the gym,

I'm gonna take a nap.

So now you're sacrificing your loved ones, 'cause you're not spending time with 'em.

And when I wake up, I'm probably gonna train again,

and then I'm gonna have dinner, and then I'm going to bed.

And I'm gonna do that every single day,

-for a long period of time. -Yeah.

That's sacrificing and discipline, you know.

And for me, I was 18 when I came into the league.

So I got my best friends from high school that's now in college.

I got one that's at Ohio State.

I got two that's at the University of Akron.

I have another one that's at a school in West Virginia. Fairmont State.

And they're calling me, telling me,

"Hey, bro, you gotta come down to these parties."

"You're not going to college. You're never gonna be in college."

I couldn't do it. Couldn't do it.

I look back on it now, I wish I would've done a few of 'em.

-[JJ laughs] -I'm not gonna lie. [laughs]

I'm not gonna lie. I wish I did.

But then the third thing, JJ, is,

"Do you really love the game?"

Like, do you really love the game?

And I'm not just talking about like wins and losses.

Do you really love the process of the game

and everything that happens before

the referee does like this?

That's the easy part.

You know this. You know this.

You was one of the first ones in the gym, one of the last ones to leave.

Everyone sees when the cameras are rolling,

and the 20,000 fans are there,

and the cheerleaders are dancing, and the popcorn is popping,

and celebrities are sitting in celebrity row.

But like, who has the love for the game when nobody is there?

You know?

I love all of that.

And it's interesting,

the love of the game part is so funny to me,

-because I think there's a distinction. -[LeBron] Mm-hmm.

Between loving the game, i.e., the game.

-Yep. -The actual,

-competition itself. -Yep.

And what it means to actually love the game

and everything that goes into that.

You hear guys all the time, "I just wanna play." Okay.

Do you want to do all the things that are necessary

that lead up to playing the actual game?

The guys that say, "I just wanna play."

-Their career won't be long. -[JJ] Yeah.

Because they're not gonna put in

all the intricate parts to get to that point.

That's only gonna...

It's not gonna last that long.

You won't have a long sustainable career, and that's okay.

Some guys, I mean, you've been in the locker room,

some guys don't really care about playing a long time in this league,

or having to sustain.

You have...

Sometimes, I look in,

like some of the all-star locker rooms I've been in.

And you see a guy one year, or you see a guy maybe two years.

And then he's not in the locker room anymore after that.

And you just like wonder to yourself why.

You know, you don't know.

You don't know if it's the max contract that he got

after he made the all-star team.

You don't know if now they know him by one name for one summer.

You know, you just don't know.

But it's like, if you want to...

if you want to be great and want to be like legendary,

or not even, I don't need to say that.

If you wanna maximize everything that you have

with your career and your ability,

then squeeze the fuck out of that lemon.

-Yeah. -Why not?

Yeah.

I wanna talk about each of those three things

a little in-depth, 'cause I also have three things.

But the history of the game part's interesting to me

'cause you brought up Oscar Robertson.

And whether the casual fan knows this or not,

Oscar Robertson sued in 1970 for a free agency.

And that court case took six years.

So the NBA really didn't have any form of free agency until 1976.

Side note, in 1977, at the time in free agency,

you had to compensate the team that was losing the player.

So, Gail Goodrich left the Los Angeles Lakers

-and went to the Jazz. -Mm-hmm.

The Jazz compensated the Lakers with some future draft picks.

One of those picks turned out to be

-Magic Johnson. -Big Magic.

It's pretty interesting.

You talked about the discipline, it's pretty interesting.

That's pretty cool. It's like soccer.

-Yeah. -It's like soccer.

You gotta compensate the club in order...

There wasn't real unrestricted free agency,

John Koncack was the first guy in 1987.

-Right. Right, right. -It just didn't exist.

I mean, I didn't make as much money as you,

but the reason I got to make a lot of money in the NBA

is like it's a direct line to Oscar Roberts.

Yeah, for sure.

Let's celebrate that.

You talked about the sacrificing loved ones.

I always felt like my pursuit was so selfish.

And I would acknowledge that to my wife, my kids,

whatever, my friends.

-Yeah, yeah. -It was so selfish.

It was like the only way that I knew how to do it.

-The only way. -That's it.

So you touched on those things.

My three things are competitive stamina,

which I'm gonna get to in a second.

The love of the game is one of mine for sure.

"Caring more about your craft instead of the other stuff

that doesn't matter," is a direct quote from you.

And then the third one, I think, is basketball IQ.

-Yeah. -Basketball IQ.

I have described Nikola Jokić,

I've described you as having supercomputers.

Like your processing speed is a little different.

I put James Harden in that category. I put Luka in that category.

-There's a number of guys-- -Yeah, yeah.

That have like a different processing speed.

Some of this stuff, love of the game,

that's a little bit of just desire, attitude,

all that stuff.

-Competitive stamina, same thing. -Yep.

Can you develop basketball IQ at the highest level?

You can get a little smarter as a player,

can you develop it as that at the next level?

When you brought up basketball IQ,

the first thing that came to my mind, I started thinking right away,

I was like, are you born with basketball IQ

or are you taught the game the right way and now the basketball IQ clicks on?

Like I was literally, just when you was explaining that,

because I come from, I believe, great coaching.

From my littler league Coach Frank Walker Sr.,

to my, at the time AAU coach, Coach Dru Joyce,

to my high school coach who was a former college coach,

Coach Dembrot.

And then my AAU coach took over when Coach Dembrot

went back to college basketball.

I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, I was taught the game the right way.

But the one thing that those coaches always told me,

they told me that I had an uncanny ability

to process information faster than anyone they've ever seen.

One coach, and this is-- I know you're gonna smirk about this.

[both laughing]

There's guys in the NBA that if you call a play

or a coach draw a play to one side of the floor,

they can't switch it in their head and do it,

and say let's run it to the other side

without the coach drawing on the clipboard.

-[JJ] Yeah. -I've never understood that.

And I don't know, I never understood that.

So if I say we running Thumb Down angle, we're running on the right side

'cause I have a left hand point guard, he wants to come middle to a strong hand,

and he has the ability to hit the pocket pass

with the left, has the ability to throw ahead,

and has the ability to throw back on the shake.

But if I say, "Hey, we run a Thumb Down angle on the left side

'cause now the right hand guard coming right,"

I've had teammates that's like...

"Oh, what do you mean?

Coaches always, in practice, we only ran it from this side."

I could flip a play when I was eight years old.

No matter if it was just pass and cut.

No matter if it was let's run flex, but let's start on the left side.

No matter if it was just, let's DHO, DHO, DHO driving cake.

The last one, alright, now let's just drive the baseline.

Baseline, drive, drift.

If the forward on the left side's looking at the ball,

you can slot cut.

I was doing that stuff when I was like eight,

nine years old and my coaches would just be blown away,

and I wouldn't know where it came from.

I have no idea.

So to get back to your question,

I think I was born with a sports IQ.

And it could have been any sport,

but I just think basketball was the one that I-- like, I was--

I chose, and maybe I was chosen to do that as well.

And I just took it to a whole, as I got older and your mind gets...

You start to live it,

you start to wanna be a part of it, you start watching.

I started watching the games when I was like nine, ten years old.

When I first started, I was watching just a fan.

I was just a fan of Michael Jordan,

and Anfernee "Penny" Hardaway, and Grant Hill,

and all those guys. I was just a fan.

But then when I started playing the game, I actually started like studying

what those guys were doing out on the floor

and what teams were doing, how teams were guarding,

how coaches were coaching, subbing patterns,

time of possession.

You know the one thing that kills me, JJ, in our league?

[laughing]

-I'm gonna tell you what kills me. -Tell me what kills you.

The two-for-one shot at the end of quarters.

Are you going on a anti-crusade against the two-for-one?

I understand why the two-for-one is important.

Obviously, it's numbers.

You get two possessions, the other team gets one possession.

-In theory, it's a free shot. -In theory, it's a free shot.

But what people sometimes don't account for

the four or five possessions before that.

Are we on a run? Are we on the heater?

Have we gotten a good shot over the last two and a half minutes?

What is the other team doing?

Are they in a great rhythm?

If we haven't gotten a great shot in two and a half,

three minutes and we've been turning the ball over,

why am I just gonna dribble down

and shoot a 40-footer with 33 on the clock?

Why not get a great look?

'Cause that great look at the end of the third,

even if we get one shot may give us momentum

going into the fourth quarter.

You know, It's interesting 'cause I think it does fuck

with the flow of the game.

And as a player I felt that.

As a broadcaster now where I'm calling games,

you have such a good feel as like an outside observer...

-Yeah. -...of this action happening.

So end of the second quarter,

you are going into halftime with the lead.

You've established, let's say a pick-and-roll partnership

where you're getting a good shot every time down the floor.

On the other end you're getting stops.

You're getting stops.

So the other team's having, you're right,

why are you gonna just jack up a 35-footer?

Just go to the pick and roll, rely on your defense,

now boom, you go into the half with essentially

the same momentum you would have if you get the two for one.

Yeah, yeah.

By the way, you shouted out your coaches.

I wanna say this 'cause I think some of it is innate

-with basketball IQ. -Yeah, yeah.

Some of it is the way you're taught.

Some of it is going back to your point about discipline,

the dedication to the craft.

I gotta shout out my coaches now

'cause Delmar Irving, Keith Haynes, Dick Wall,

my early coaches for the Roanoke Jaguars, they taught me how to play,

they taught me how to play with toughness.

I get to JV eighth grade, Chris Morris, Billy Hicks.

-Then I go to Coach K at Duke. -[LeBron] Yeah.

So by the time I got to the NBA, I knew how to process and think the game.

It wasn't new to me.

-It wasn't new to me-- -[LeBron] Right, right.

To think the game.

You also knew what was bullshit and what was not bullshit.

-[JJ] Yes. -There's a lot of bullshit

that gets taught in our league

because our league

has been feast off potential.

Guys with potential, they come in and say, this guy has potential,

we have to, if it's not year one,

maybe year two, or not year three, or maybe year four,

or we're gonna pick up his option in year four.

Like it's been grasped on potential.

Like that's the whole thing of the lottery.

The whole thing of the lottery, pick one through 13 or 14.

I don't even know what it is now

when it cuts off like you've been a lottery pick.

But it makes sense why those guys that's like 16 to 30,

16 to 42,

why those guys be on real contending teams making impacts.

Also, why is it the same teams that always draft well...

[laughing]

...and the same teams that always draft poorly?

I'll tell you when I get my team.

The teams that draft well

those guys will be working for me for sure.

-Just so you'd offer 'em a bag. -Yeah, for sure.

OKC does an unbelievable job with that.

It's a fact. It's a fact.

I was thinking about, you know this,

so by like the end of my first year with the Clippers,

we realized all of my catch and shoot stuff

I wanted to come over left shoulder.

-[LeBron] Yes, sir. -I want it come to my right.

And so for the next three years,

every single time we drew up a play, it was to do that.

When I got to like Philly,

to your point about like guys not understanding this.

I got to like Philly and New Orleans,

the coaches would draw up a play in the huddle and I'd be like,

"I wanna come over my left shoulder. Flip it."

I'd walk out on the court, my teammates would be like, "What am I doing here?"

I'm like, "No, no, just flip it."

Which guys, by the way, the, the...

the processing speed, I mentioned a few guys.

Guys you played with, guys you played against

that you think have that sort of high-level basketball IQ?

Rajon Rondo, for sure.

He can process flip, do things on the go like.

-[finger snapping] -It's very weird to me

that he's not coaching at a high level.

I think it's because he doesn't wanna do it.

-It's a lot. -It is a lot. It is a lot.

And who wants to deal with all these rich, entitled guys all the time?

You guys make too much money now.

-It's a weird thing. -You guys make too much money.

Let's get a cheers, man.

-[both] Cheers. -Thank you for the wine, by the way.

This smells amazing, too.

Going back to that competitive stamina thing

'cause I was calling the game

and I knew this 'cause I played in L.A.

But Clippers home games against the Lakers is not really a home game.

Half the crowd are Clippers fans,

half the crowd are Lakers fans.

And so the arena felt very subdued,

'cause you guys were getting your ass kicked.

-Getting our ass kicked. -And the body language was bad.

I think I even mentioned that on air.

Like you saw it in the huddles.

You saw it coming out of timeouts, going into timeouts.

You saw it when guys were getting subbed out.

It was just bad body language.

And then as Darvin Ham said,

you decided to put your cape on and lead this comeback.

You outscored the Clippers by yourself in the fourth quarter.

In that moment, where you're down 19 in the fourth.

It's a dead game.

You know your team is, I call it like letting go of the rope.

Doc Rivers used to always say that, "Don't let go of the rope."

What goes through your mind?

You probably got a few minutes to try to change it

or you gonna get pulled.

Knowing it's a back-to-back,

knowing that, okay, we lose to the Clippers,

we got our ass kicked, okay.

But we can't then in the very next night lose to Washington as well.

So I go out there down 19 with the lineup.

I believe at the start of the fourth lineup it was myself,

DLo, Jackson Hayes, Taurean Prince, Cam Reddish.

So coach drew up a play.

First play, they believe he draws up Horns Chest.

And they fucked up on the Horns Chest.

So we ran it again.

And that's another thing that bothers me about the NBA too.

Why do we not just run the same thing over and over until they stop it.

Guys would run a play one time, then you were scoring,

then they'd change the play.

But anyways, we ran it again and they fucked it up again.

So, I mean, for me, if I see two threes go down,

I'm going to check and see if it's a heater

in this right elbow for sure.

And I hit another one.

And at this point now I'm feeling really good.

I got a nice bounce in my step.

We're getting stops.

And I take one down the right wing

and PJ's picking me up in transition.

And I rarely shoot the ball on the run,

especially if the ball's in my right hand, I rarely shoot it.

But I had a bounce and I had a feeling, I felt like, I said,

"If I can make this one go, oh, I'll know.

This is when like NBA Jam you're on fire."

If this one goes, yeah.

And I let that one go from the right wing by they bench.

That's when I kinda almost bumped into T-loop

and they call a timeout.

That's when I knew that the momentum can change.

The momentum can change.

Once the ball, the snowball gets going down that hill,

snowball turns into the avalanche and the avalanche just turns into...

It's over with.

You know, so I just felt good at that moment.

A few things there. So like, with the three-ball,

we've seen it so often now, no lead is really safe.

No.

If you think back to early in your career,

I came in the league in '06, '07.

I played no minutes my first two years.

-Yeah. -But you know what?

If we had a 19-point lead going to the fourth,

I might get all 12 minutes of garbage time.

-For sure. -People would clear their benches.

-But this was 15 years ago. -For sure.

-For sure. -People would clear their benches

with a 17-point lead in the fourth in nine minutes to go.

-You can't do that anymore. -You can't do that anymore.

You know why? Because I believe in '08, '09,

or whenever that little light-skinned fucker came

in the lead, that's in Golden State,

he changed that whole narrative.

He did, he single-handedly changed the no lead is safe.

It's like Pat Mahomes right now.

It's interesting you bring up Steph, because I think there's--

-I love that guy a lot. -A long history

-of great players-- -I love Steph. Mm-hmm.

-That have impacted the game. -Mm-hmm.

And you can see a lineage, between different skill sets, right?

-There's Michael to Kobe. -Yeah.

-Right, you can see that. -Yeah.

I don't know that there's been a player

that has influenced the game more than Steph.

And you can certainly point to Harden for sure in that era,

Damian Lillard for sure, but you're right, it started with Steph.

No, when it comes to influence, since I've been watching the game,

the most influence on the game,

and obviously, we know what Mike did for the game.

[JJ] Sure.

You know, Steph and Allen Iverson,

are the two biggest influential guys in our game,

since I've been watching it and covering it, you know?

One, they're 6'3, 6'4, if you wanna--

Steph's not 6'4.

If you want to look on the back of a basketball card,

you know, you're always a lot taller

on the back of the basketball card.

You know, Allen Iverson and Steph, they were just so relatable,

and kids felt like they could be them.

They were guys that was not always counted on.

They were small in stature, and they just defied the odds.

So you got AI who's like, unbelievable crossover,

cornrows, arm sleeve.

We wear arm sleeve, everyone wears arm sleeve now because of Allen Iverson.

And he's going in the trenches, laying it up over bigs,

whatever the case may be.

And now you have Steph who's shooting over the Empire State Building.

You know, it's like, those two are the two most influential,

when you say the game, how they change the game,

and the kids, and like,

those are two guys that you just want to watch every single night.

I have an arm sleeve because of Allen Iverson.

-No bullshit, no bullshit. -Listen, one of my tattoos is

because of Allen Iverson, for sure.

And the influence with Steph, I think,

is he fundamentally changed how we viewed how the game should be played

-with the three-point shot. -Mm-hmm.

Do you think, 'cause part of the Steph thing

in this three-point revolution for a fan is

that we have now simplified the NBA.

All right, we're just gonna shoot a bunch of threes.

My question to you,

going back to that basketball intelligence piece,

does the game require more basketball intelligence now,

or does it require less than when you first started?

From-- you can't ask me that,

because I'm always side on basketball IQ.

-[JJ] Yeah. -Always.

I think throughout the regular season,

you can get away with a low IQ team if you're talented.

You can get away with it in the first round,

and maybe get away with it in the second round.

When you get to the conference finals, and you get to the finals,

obviously, the top four teams in the conference finals,

they have players, unless the team just happen

to hit a heater and they just get lucky.

But the top four teams normally are gonna be the team

with the best players, four of the best coaches.

And what's gonna separate them is, now, the basketball IQ kicks in.

Because there's moments in the game

that a coach cannot prepare you for, film can't prepare you for,

the history of the game can't prepare you for--

Right.

Where you have to have a basketball IQ to make adjustments right away.

And if you don't have that level of...

mind frame or capacity,

then a team like Denver, who has one of the greatest IQ guys

that we've ever seen in Jokić,

you know, Golden State, Draymond, Steph,

any one of my teams if I played you in the finals, myself.

And when I won in '20, it was myself and Rondo on the floor.

I think those things help.

I believe that when Golden State beat Boston,

it came down to IQ in the finals.

'Cause Boston, to me, had the better talent.

Boston had the better talent, but it came down to IQ.

People say experience, IQ.

I made this comment the other day about Tatum.

It feels like with him, the reads are quicker,

making the right play, it's just quicker.

He doesn't fight the game as much.

I did the details thing for ESPN--

-Yeah, yeah, yeah. -During that finals,

and I did Klay, that was the first episode,

Steph was the second episode, Tatum was the third.

And so I had all these Tatum clips I got to go through and break down.

I never watched the episode.

-Yeah. -It's behind a paywall.

[both laugh]

But you know, what I saw was

on the isolation on the wing.

-[LeBron] Mm-hmm. -So a lot of times, would be in the slot--

-Yep, yep. -The high quadrant, right?

And they've given him space.

They would bring that low man over early.

-Sometimes it was Draymond-- -[both] Not always.

[JJ] Sometimes it was Clay--

[LeBron] Yeah.

And very rarely did he end up getting the

-Golden State Warriors into rotation. -[LeBron] Yeah.

[JJ] Now, it feels like, he's just making the play off the ball.

It did happen a couple of times

-in that finals-- -[LeBron] Yeah.

But it wasn't as quick. And it was rare.

And obviously, with their personnel, it's different now--

With Porziņģis, but I think that's part of the growth.

[LeBron] That's part of the growth.

So even going back to the question about, can you teach basketball IQ?

-In some ways, it's innate. -[LeBron] Right.

But in some ways, if you're studying it and doing it,

you can see the growth in a player.

Yeah, 'cause there's a great saying that says,

"The best teacher in life is experience," as well.

And we look at Tate-- I mean, he's 25 years old.

He's 25 years old,

and I believe he's been to the conference finals four times,

been to, obviously, the NBA Finals once.

He's 25, I mean, I didn't win my first one until I was 28.

I think Jokić won his first one at 27.

I think MJ was 28, as well.

Kobe without Shaq was around the same age, too.

-Yeah, yeah. -Steph was the same, yeah.

Yeah, I think we have a lot of expectations on JT,

but he's experienced a lot of winning

in his career so far.

And obviously, you know,

everyone wants to see him get over the hump, but four conference finals

in a finals appearance before the age of 26, that's elite.

Like you just said, he's continuing to grow,

and they are in a position where they can make another title run.

And like you said, personnel helps.

You know, Adam, Porziņģis and getting Drew for a bag

of Lay's potato chips, that helps, as well.

That helps as well.

But JT is definitely the, when you go and you start scouting for Boston,

then he's the number one guy for sure.

Basketball IQ, to me,

when, you were earlier than me,

when I first got in the NBA though,

what that meant to me in some ways was

being able to remember a play. Honestly, as simple as that.

Being able to recognize patterns.

-Yeah. -You come out of an ATO, okay--

There's a misdirection here.

I know there's going to be a pindown coming, right?

-That's pattern recognition. -Right. Yeah.

Offensively, defensively, it's making the right read--

-Making the right read. -Knowing the game plan, all that,

that's basketball IQ.

I think what's interesting about today's NBA is...

what smart coaches do, and what smart players do,

which did not happen when I first got to the NBA.

Nearly, every possession, all you're doing is trying

-to find the right match-up. -A target.

You're playing chess on the possession.

Yeah, target basketball, yeah.

And that, to me, is the biggest difference.

-Yeah, that never happened. -Bro, I was watching a game,

I was calling a game, actually.

A guy had the ball, good offensive player had the ball

at the top of the key, and they're playing the Clippers,

and end of the shot, seven on the clock.

Another guy off the ball is being guarded by Kawhi Leonard--

[LeBron] Mm-hmm.

And he comes up to set a pick-and-roll for the guy with the ball.

It makes no sense.

And I'm like, "That's just low basketball IQ."

-That's low basketball IQ. -Keep Kawhi away from the ball.

That is low basketball IQ.

That doesn't make any sense, and that happens a lot in our...

And I'ma go back to when you first started it,

you said, remembering a play.

How many guys fuck up a play out of time out burns me alive?

It burns me alive that a coach can sit there,

and guys, all five guys, 10 eyes, all looking at the play,

and they come out of time out and fuck it up,

bothers me so bad.

But yeah, like you said,

you knew like when you played, you had two reads.

I'm coming off left, right.

And if the big is not up, I'm shooting that bitch.

And if the big is up, I'm pocket passing.

[JJ] Yeah.

-What else are we talking about? -Well, the one other thing...

sometimes the big would be back, right?

And I'd get the stunt off the passer.

[LeBron] You'd get the stunt off the passer.

When I played in Philly, I'd kick it to Ben,

and he's going down the line.

-Well, Ben was-- -So you got to read the nail guy, too.

You got to read the nail guy.

Don't kind of like, underestimate my reads.

Well, that's not, whoa, yes, I agree, I agree.

I was more thinking with the Clippers.

Yeah, okay, okay.

-So pocket to-- -It's so weird though,

because even the coverage on catch-and-shoot stuff,

and there's not a ton of catch-and-shoot guys anymore.

-Right. -You're not running Floppy.

-That doesn't happen a lot. -Yeah.

But when I first started running it,

-or like Ray in Boston-- -[LeBron] Ray, yeah.

When you're running, you'd always stun up with the big.

[JJ] And the pocket pass was always there.

Once teams started playing more drop coverage,

they just kept the big back in catch and shoot.

And so a lot of times that help would come off the passer.

-[LeBron] Right. -So if they knew we were

in a catch-and-shoot play, kick to me, the help comes off the passer,

then I got to make that read back to the top.

Yeah, obviously, 'cause now, offense is so more extended now,

you know, the big could be the guy that could help up a little bit

because if you look at like Rip Hamilton at the time,

he wasn't coming off their floppy down action going

to the three-point line.

He was coming off more elbow action.

So you can kind of contact help with the big.

And then, obviously, when we came in the league,

there was a point guard in the front.

There was another forward at the free throw line.

There was two bigs.

So even if you did get extended a little bit,

when you made the pocket pass,

at least the other big X4, X5 could come over and help.

Now, in Boston's case,

it's five guys on the perimeter at one time.

-[JJ] Nobody's in the paint. -Nobody's in the paint.

You have Drew, Jason, Brown,

you know, Porziņģis could be at the top.

You got Derek White, they're all over the place.

So you know, the level of where you help from

has changed a lot because the bigs

in basketball history

have been programmed to help

no matter where they are, and that's where the IQ comes in, too.

You got certain bigs that you know,

if I just drive this slot and they say,

"Don't help strong side shooter in the corner."

That is the easiest three.

You just know that there are certain bigs that he's going to leave no matter what

because he's been programmed his whole life to protect the rim.

[bluesy theme playing]

Um... I think we wrap there.

'Cause if I go to the next thing, we're gonna talk for another hour.

-Yeah, 'cause I can talk. -No, no, I'm serious.

I mean, that was legitimately what I had is episode one, all right.

-That's been fun. -Yeah, how was it?

Just keep rolling, yeah. How was it?

-[JJ] That's my thing. -That's me.

That only okay? We got room for improvement.

[bluesy theme continues]

[JJ] This has been episode one of Mind The Game.

Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching.

[bluesy theme continues]

[music fades]