All language subtitles for audiocom Endangered Species (Alan Rudolph, 1982).mkv3

Hi everyone, this is film critic and
author Lee Gambon, joined by film critic

and historian and filmmaker Paul Anthony
Nelson, here to talk to you about

endangered species.

How are you, Paul?

I'm great, Lee. I'm very excited to jump
into this crazy little movie.

Yeah, it is a crazy one. It's one that's
kind of slipped under the radar, I

guess. I've got the old VHS tucked away
somewhere in a box.

Nice! Yeah, it's one of those movies
where you're like, oh, my God, I

this one. It kind of falls into this
great interesting wave of these sort of

semi -sci -fi kind of Cold War thriller,
government conspiracy movies that were

sort of happening at the period.

Yeah, well, this film kind of faints to
the left in a certain way, doesn't it?

It kind of starts off like it's going to
be a UFO film and then, yeah, then

turns into something else.

Yeah, definitely. Very interesting,
bizarre, but fun film. Really well

beautifully performed, and it looks
great. It's a really good looking film.

Great direction, everything about it, I
think it works really well.

I love when we're sort of looking over
the film and sort of comparing notes,

etc. You open with this sort of
discussion on the idea of the sort of

juxtapositioning of cows and cattle with
humans. And that's really interesting

because... A lot of films where there's
kind of either germ warfare or something

going on where nature or the environment
is affected generally has animals as a

cautionary tale. So animals are
presented as a cautionary tale. And

ultimately, there's this kind of
speciesist element to these movies where

really only matters if people are
affected.

So pretty much nearly a decade before
this film was released, in the mid-'70s,

Peter Singer...

He was Australian, an Australian
philosopher and animal rights activist,

book called Animal Liberation. And that
would be quite a bit of an influence on

a lot of films popping up during this
period on the way animals were seen in

eyes of legal law, the way animals were
sort of seen in regards to relation to

human, what...

Being was more important and more valid
etc.

And you see that pop up in a lot of
things whether it's film or even TV

Something that's quite interesting is
around this period

In the 80s, you'd have TV shows sort of
dealing with it. So there's an episode

of Highway to Heaven, of all things,
that talks about pollution and that the

death of many seabirds in this one
episode is used as a cautionary tale and

cautionary warning to humans who will
also eventually die from irresponsible

business and commerce and pollution.

And so what this is doing here with
endangered species is talking about the

thing. There's this marriage between
animals dying and humans dying, but it

really only mattering if humans are the
victims. So that's quite... interesting

sort of opening.

But yet it's the animals that kind of
kick off the investigation as well.

It's different in the way it's like now
it's killing people.

It doesn't really go to that until about
halfway through the movie.

The cattle deaths are the investigation
for the most part which is probably a

bit of a distinguishing factor as well.

They obviously care about the cattle in
this movie.

It's not quite as a species.

As other films.

I was shocked to see Zelman King's name
there as executive producer.

Zelman King of the Nine and a Half
Weeks, Wild Orchids, Red Shoe Diaries,

erotic drama universe of the 80s and
90s.

Kind of a fascinating name to have on
this.

So now we're introduced to Robert Urich.

So he was a TV star at the time. He was
the star of Vegas.

an action show that was on sort of 78 to
80 playing the character Dan Tanner,

who was named after the famous Santa
Monica restaurateur because Aaron

and the other executive producer were
fans of the restaurant.

But this seems like it was an attempt to
make him, to sort of launch him as a

movie star.

This was his first lead in a feature
film.

playing a hot -tempered, alcoholic, arse
-kicking, mob -busting street cop. Very

old world. And now I think we're being
introduced to the new world.

Not necessarily these guys, but there's
a lot of 10 -gallon hats there. I can't

help but think there's something phallic
in it.

There was a TV movie from a couple of
years earlier called Incident at

Crestbridge, which starred Eileen
Brennan. And she entered the small town

her husband and they witnessed Bordello
brothel, home of sex workers, being

completely devastated by a bunch of
local roughs who were just revolting and

vile. set it aflame and no one pays
attention and no one cares. So that

her. So she actually becomes the
sheriff. She gets appointed as the

this small town and has to deal with all
the sexism and misogyny that she faces

as well as all the women of this town.
And it was a really cool, interesting TV

movie that really reminded me a lot of
this, re -watching this and revisiting

this and seeing what Jo Beth Williams
has to deal with throughout the film,

throughout the course of the movie.

But, yeah, just going back to what you
were saying about the lead, the lead

character, and he's sort of this ex
-alcoholic.

Alcoholism and recovering from being an
alcoholic as a hindrance is something

that's used a lot in ecological horror
films. And this film kind of has a bit

a tap into that kind of sub -genre as
well.

If you think about films like Kingdom of
the Spiders with William Shatner and

Piranha with Bradford Dillman and...

Orca with Richard Harris.

These are alcoholic men or people who
are trying to shed the booze or they're

battling the booze. And it's kind of all
about them having to step up as better

men. And there's usually something to do
with having a child or having a woman

come into their world who forces them to
step up. And in this case, of course,

you have this really interesting,
strange relationship that he has with

rebellious teenage daughter, played by
Maren Cantor, who's just phenomenal.

She's so wonderful, and we'll talk a lot
about her later.

But, yeah, it's really interesting, that
kind of thematic thing, where it's

basically this sort of complicated and
put -upon guy, self -put -upon guy,

who's, you know, really kind of...

broken, having to sort of man up, I
guess, quote -unquote man up. And it

this amazing, strong woman, this woman
that has to fight constantly throughout

her life, to get him to do that in order
to sort of take on what's going on with

this sort of government conspiracy thing
that's happening.

cattle. And going back to what you're
saying, absolutely this film isn't as

as other films because cattle is their
world, it's their commerce, but

that's another thing, that's another
factor that these animals are used as

something for people to make the end of
the means.

Yeah, and keep this town afloat.

Something other than Hoyt action,
keeping this town afloat.

It's striking to me.

So this came out the same year as
Poltergeist, which, of course, Jo Beth

Williams is one of her most famous roles
as Diane Freeling.

This was shot a couple of years earlier,
yeah?

Yeah, it was shot in 1980.

So it's really interesting because it
was shot at the same time Aaron Cantor

doing Ladies and Gentlemen of the
Fabulous Dame.

So there was a sort of interesting delay
with these movies.

So Carolyn Pfeiffer, the producer of the
film, is going to be popping up on this

commentary with some wonderful insight.

And she had some great insight into the
production history and casting, etc.

But she told me some great stories, and
you'll hear them. But initially, as you

were talking about Robert E. Richards'
casting, that wasn't initially the way

they were going to go. They wanted to go
old -school, classic Hollywood, sort of

leftover cowboy types.

They were looking at people like...
Robert Mitchum. They were looking at

like Burt Lancaster.

They were looking at, you know, all
these kind of classic Hollywood guys,

would have added a totally different
angle.

Because, you know, this is a guy that's
kind of young. Robert Rich is kind of

young. Yeah. He feels a little bit
older.

Yeah, like he seems like he's been aged
up a little bit.

They put the grey on the temples and,
you know, he's this sort of hard -bitten

retired cop and you sort of think,
you've retired quite early. But you

now that you say that, you notice in his
line deliveries, he is going for a kind

of a Mitchum quality.

It's the top -off type. It's really
interesting.

Do you think Robert Mitchum might have
done a couple of scenes, shower scenes,

that Yurik does later? I'm not sure.

It's interesting, though. Mitchum's
career during this period is quite

interesting because he was doing TV
movies like Killer in the Family, which

amazing, and things like Night Kill.

There was a horror film he did like
Night Kill. So he was doing really

interesting sort of dark work.

I mean, he was always...

you know attracted to sort of grim stuff
but but that kind of new wave that

these actors who are sort of you know
seasoned let's just say that we're

to sort of fall into these kind of films
that were usually indies or, you know,

films that were kind of sitting out just
outside the studio system. So it was

something that they had to sort of
gravitate towards in order to keep

And the people making these movies were
fans. They were massive fans. I would

have grown up with these people as kids,
you know.

Yeah, yeah, like movie buffs.

Yeah, I mean, Mitchum would be, I think
it was the next year that he was in The

Winds of War, which was that massive big
-budget miniseries.

sort of through, I think it was 83, 84.

So he would sort of transition more into
doing more kind of this large -scale

television stuff and appearing in movies
less and less until kind of, I think

there was a micro -resurgence in the 90s
with films like Dead Man.

Absolutely.

No,

no, okay.

Oh, I was just going to say, you were
talking about the Western iconography

we got to introduce, you know, Joe
Bethlehem getting inducted as a sheriff.

But that's really interesting that you
bring that up because Westerns were not

really being made by the early 80s.
There were definitely some being made

sure that were kind of the carryover
from the revisionist period of the 70s,

which was very Western heavy.

But by the early 80s, you got some
Westerns, but it was kind of what...

the Western tropes and archetypes were
doing for other genres. It was kind of

informing other genres.

So what was happening was while they
were not being made because the action

really took off by the 80s, which was
sort of the direct descendant of the

Western, you still have elementary
motifs that are very, very grounded in

movies where you have, you know, the
outsider coming into the town, you have

rivalry between the sort of old school
and the new school, you have this

community conversation that keeps going
as a through line to what we've made.

movies, and also what this character of
Harry, James Williams' character, has to

deal with as being the new sheriff in
town.

So you've got this kind of litany of
Western motifs that pepper this film.

But what's interesting is this film, and
we'll talk about it a bit more, also

comes in during a wave of what I like to
call the quote -unquote poor white folk

movie wave.

which is huge. Like, if you think about
it, like all the whistleblower movies,

all the kind of farming community
movies, and I'll talk a bit about them

but thinking about films like, you know,
Country and Places in the Heart and

Norma Rae and Silkwood, Coal Miner's
Daughter, all these movies about the

of poor white folk that was happening
during this wave of movies corresponding

with what's going on with Reaganism and
the formation of Reaganism, where, you

know,

conservatism married with commerce and
banks buying out properties and farms

basically exploiting um middle america
uh these movies were commenting on that

and being kind of reflective of what was
going and being you know offering a big

up yours to reaganism which was
basically all about greed and and you

exploiting the underclasses so these
movies all sort of paved a way through

and this film is really bizarrely
inserted in that as well because it's a

town suffering and they're suffering at
the hands of government yeah there's so

many crossovers with different films
going on at the time because you've got

that sort of stuff you've got the there
is a very

1970s paranoia about your government in
this running throughout this film as

well um and even though in this film the
threat winds up being kind of

government adjacent it's still you know
it's paramilitary it's government

officials working a little something on
the side um and even the ending of the

film you know kind of couldn't be more
70s it's you've won the battle but not

the war um but it also crosses over and
i guess maybe we'll talk about this

further later when um Maren Cantor's
character sort of becomes more

But it even crosses over with the kind
of tomboy trend of, you know, Jodie

Foster, Christy McNichol, short -haired,
sporty girls who, you know,

wisecrack and undermine their fathers
and adults in general,

authority in general, and also like
baseball.

You know, Tatum O 'Neill fits into that
as well.

Yeah, yeah.

So it sort of crosses over with that as
well. But it's interesting with the

Western iconography. You're absolutely
right.

I mean, you know, it's set in a Western
town. Everyone gets about a 10 -gallon

hat. I love that Harriet is called by an
androgynous name. It's called Harry.

So it's like they can... It's almost
like as long as they call her Harry,

can think of her as a man.

It's really interesting.

I also like that, you know, Hoyt Axton's
character could be...

you know, the rancher in a western who's
seemingly a friend of the sheriff at

the start and then as things kind of
threat, as his, you know, as the

tends to get closer to him, he starts
turning and we see that he's actually a

really bad guy. Like, that's quite a
common character in westerns as well.

So, yeah, there's a lot of subgenres
being explored here.

Interesting that this turns out to be a
horror film because, Or a horror film

with Thor.

It is a bit of a genre mash in many
ways. Like, there's a little sci -fi,

there's a little action, there's a
little thriller, there's a little

There's a little Zellman King erotic
drama.

But, I mean, look at this. I mean, that
looks like a Western shot, doesn't it?

That panorama in the background.

By the way, these are the hills of
Sheridan, Wyoming and Boulder, Colorado

standing in for Buffalo, New York.

I think some of the town scenes were
probably more Buffalo. Am I right?

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, but this is otherwise kind of very
Midwestern America.

And one of the major things that Carolyn
Pfeiffer talks about is the best fun

she had.

on this shoot, which was a pretty grim
shoot, as she goes into detail about,

exploring these beautiful locations and
finding these beautiful locations and,

you know, being there in that beautiful
open space.

And this film, you know, the location
itself, though it's cliche to say, is

definitely a character unto itself in
this film.

And it sort of feeds into the sort of...
the barren sort of...

ideals of small towns, how small towns
eat themselves up and how small towns

don't have any kind of places for people
to move. People are sort of stuck in a

permanent rut. So when you have these
kind of progressive characters like J.

Beth Williams' character, she's stuck,
unfortunately.

But then you have someone like the Maren
Cantor character who's also someone who

wants to move and move forward and she's
frustrated. There's also nowhere for

her to move as well.

So it's kind of these interesting sort
of...

They're kind of on par with this cattle,
you know. There's a really great film

from the early 70s, I'm sure you're a
fan of it, Bless the Beasts and

which marries the idea of these misfit
boys at a summer camp who are considered

no -hopers.

with buffalo, because buffalo are looked
upon as pathetic, useless animals.

And so, in a sense, you've got these
characters who are kind of wandering

aimlessly, much like these heavy cows.

You've got that sort of parallel, these
kind of heavy -footed characters who

have not much footing. There's not
much...

um distance for them to go or to travel
um and i think the writers are sort of

commenting on that it's really
interesting but going back to your

that was really fascinating because A,
on the production history level, and

Carol and Piper talked about this, the
studio really wanted to change the

character. They wanted to sort of, I
guess, quote -unquote, Hollywood her up

not have it so sort of tomboyish.

Right. Yeah, and you see the character
transition throughout the film, and

talks about that. But also, it's playing
on that trope of...

the young girl who has to become kind of
like a tomboy or more like one of the

boys in order to survive this kind of
landscape.

And that's reflected in Jo McWilliams'
character as well. And that goes way

to, like, really classicist westerns.
And also, like, I guess...

um westerns that are kind of uh hybrid
as well like musical westerns like

calamity jane um and if you think of
like you know doris j is kind of an

archetypal um tomboy uh there's films
such as um by the light of the silvery

moon and stuff where she plays a tomboy
who has to sort of i guess quote unquote

learn to be a lady um and she's still
got that embedded in her but the tomboy

craze as you pointed out is very huge
when you get to the late 70s early 80s

part of the fabric of what teenage girls
can be. So you've got hyper -feminine,

and then you've got tomboys, and you've
got, you know, hyper -sexual, and you've

got nerdy. So it's basically this great
exploration of teenage girls on a

spectrum, which is awesome.

So, yeah, I mean, if you look at Maren
Kantash, her first audition was for

Alan Parker's film.

I think everyone in that sort of age
bracket auditioned for that, even people

like Madonna.

So she was auditioning for that for one
of the lead roles, one of the lead four

girls. And then after that, she landed
the role in Ladies and

Gentlemen of the Fabulous Stage, a
classic punk feminist film.

She plays the guitarist in the band, The
Stains, alongside Diane Lane and Laura

Dern. And she's, you know...

very girly and that and you know punk
and you know awesome and wonderful but

also incredibly you know of course very
urban and angry so there's this kind of

cool i love her i love her voice that
kind of scratchy awesome voice yeah it's

just this coolness about her this great
character

that kind of really gets your attention
in this movie. Like everything she's in,

she really, you know, pricks up your
ears. And I really love, I respond so

to this idea of her being really
attracted to older men. I think that's

interesting because it adds to her sort
of up yours to her dad and sort of plays

against the sexlessness of a tomboy,
that the tomboy is sexless until

she becomes quote -unquote feminine.

But this is someone who's completely
comfortable with being a tomboy and

in, you know, the cropped hair and, you
know, the flax and stuff, but still will

pick up dudes. Yeah. It's really
interesting, yeah.

Well, she's from the big city, you know,
just sophisticated.

Yeah.

I love Paul Dooley. Can I just say that?
He makes me smile every time he turns

up in something.

And it's interesting because, again,
because we talk about director Alan

as someone that...

famously worked a lot with Robert Altman
early in his career. He was a second

assistant director on California Split
and Nashville and sort of graduated to

-writing the Buffalo Bill and the
Indians and then

became struck out on his own as a
director. And Paul Dooley is someone

particularly at this time, was very
identified as being part of the Altman

You know, in films like A Perfect Couple
and A Wedding.

And in 1980, he was in My Homeland of
Malta as Wimpy.

Oh, he was too, yes, of course.

Let's not forget, hey.

That's right, hey.

So, yeah, very identifiable.

In this film, I find the cast, if
they're not outside of Robert Urich, if

they're not Altman adjacent, they're
Amblin adjacent.

as these two in the frame here, you
know, Acton would be in Gremlins a

years later and Jo Beth in Poltergeist.

But yeah, but Dooley is very, very, sort
of ties, seems to be a

signifier back to Rudolf's ties with
Altman, as is the film's

Paul Lohman, who shot California Split
in Nashville, which were the two films

that Rudolph worked on as second AD.

Yep, and Carolyn also worked with Altman
as well.

An amazing career, you know.

She worked with everyone.

But yeah, Altman was one of her mentors
and someone she worked with.

But let's hear from her now.

As I remember, this project came to
us...

Truth Almond King, who we had worked on
with Rhodey. He was like a friend.

And an actor and a director in his own
right who had a different career as time

went on. And I think the young, all over
the papers at that time was this

cattle mutilation issue.

I mean, it was popping up in papers all
over the states.

And there were all these.

hypotheses as to what it was. Was it
aliens? Was it germ warfare testing?

Was it cults? So it was very much in the
media, so to speak.

And the two young writers, I think, took
it to a pitch to Zalman, and we had

done Rhody based on a pitch from Zalman.
I won't go into Rhody.

And Alan and I just became intrigued.

And he, we pitched it, my memory is we
pitched

it to David Beigelman, who was then
himself,

David Beigelman himself, who was then
running MGM.

And David bought the project, and Alan
and John Binder wrote the screenplay.

And then it seemed to us, of course, we
were impatient young filmmakers.

that it took a really long time to get
greenlit. But there was a writer's

going on.

And so it really, we had to wait around
for a year.

And it took us a while to finally get
the greenlight from MGM.

And during that time, we did go out on
some scouts.

And the scouts were looking for an
idyllic small town

in cattle country.

set against a beautiful mountain range.

And because of seasons

changing, we scouted. My memory is that
we went on three scouts. I actually

could have been two, but I'm pretty sure
it was three.

And we did Texas, we did all over the
Midwest, which was...

really fabulous because I hadn't seen so
many parts of the country. So we were

in Montana, New Mexico, Wyoming, Texas,
South Texas, North Texas,

West Texas, you know.

And it was, you know, one of the fun
parts of being a filmmaker, if you get

scout locations, is that you just get to
learn so much and see so much. So that

was a very delightful part of the
process.

And then we started casting, and Alan
really wanted it to be, to

have a very naturalistic feel.

He wanted natural lighting. He didn't
want to make characters with a lot of

makeup. He wanted it to be, I mean, to
feel really real.

And so I know, I'm sure we found Marin
Cantor in

New York when we were back there
casting.

And we just thought she was perfect. We
absolutely fell in love with her to

play, you know, the rebellious young
daughter of this tough New York cop.

The cop, we really wanted to be, we
really wanted an older actor for the

Our first choices were Robert Mitchum,
Burt Lancaster, Lee Marvin, but the

studio wouldn't let us go that way.

Partial to Robert Mitchum, I don't know
why.

But as I said, we weren't allowed to
approach the older actors.

And instead, MGM had recently put Robert
Ulrich under contract.

And so we were asked to meet with him
and we were pretty much told that we had

to cast him.

I mean, the good news is that Bob was
just like the nicest guy.

So he was a joy to work with and, you
know, died.

so way too young. It was just, that part
was heartbreaking.

But in this film, he was healthy.

He was very committed, very excited.

He and Jo Beth had good chemistry.

He and Marin got on fine. I mean, I'm
not aware of any cast problems.

And the rest of the casting, some are
what I call Alan favorites.

And then I was trying to remember how we
came about casting Hoyd Axon, who I

thought was fantastic.

I do remember being told that we had a
medical problem with Hoyt accident

because his cholesterol was so high.

And I remember them saying to me that
the fat actually floated to the top of

test tube, which, of course, that was
not true.

But somebody told us that, and I was
very horrified. But anyway, Hoyt was a

to work with.

Then we started shooting. And about, I
think it was maybe two weeks in,

Alan had hired a friend and a

cinematographer that he had worked with
in earlier days, I think on, I don't

know if they were student films or
amateur films or quite what they were,

his pal was...

a cinematographer named Jan Kiser, K -E
-I -S -S -E -R.

And about a week or two weeks into the
shoot, they shut us down.

And they wanted us to recast Marin.

And they wanted hair, makeup, romance,
and

bright lights.

We were horrified.

I mean, we'd had such a pleasant
experience working with United Artists

Rhodey where there was no studio
interference.

We come from a situation with no studio
interference to this. Suddenly, suddenly

they were interfering with everything.
They wanted us to recast Marin.

And we really fought that. And they
finally agreed. We did a test with her.

And we, you know, we put her in makeup
and we...

somehow bought some kind of romance into
the film that wasn't there originally.

I can't remember exactly or how we, I
don't remember specific script changes,

but it was, otherwise they were going to
shut down production.

They allowed us to continue with Marin,
but it was a very, can you imagine for

such a young actress, it's like a
devastating experience.

And we had to replace Jan, and we
replaced him.

With Lohman.

And Lohman was fine. It was just a
different approach.

Alan worked so closely with the
cinematographers. It's such camaraderie.

And we finished the film. And, you know,
everyone did the best they could.

But it really took the wind out of our
sails.

And we think that part of what...
Vigelman was fired.

I can't remember if he was fired before
the film ended.

or if it was before the film opened. It
may have been before the film opened

because his slate of pictures had not
done well at all.

Do not ask me what those pictures were
because I simply do not remember. This

was a long time ago.

And then we had Freddie Fields.

Now, they had both been top agents, and
they had been partners in the same firm,

as memory serves me.

And then Freddie was...

You know, I don't, I mean, as far as he
was concerned, it was David's film. He

didn't love the film.

He made us change the ending.

And the ending was a little darker, a
little more ambiguous.

We're not quite sure who else may have
been poisoned, including the sheriff.

A very Rudolphian ending.

And it got no support coming out. And it
really is one of those lost films. And

frankly, I think the film holds

up really, really well considering how
long ago it was made in terms of look

and even atmosphere.

I mean, I would say maybe the special
effects, I mean, that would be the one

place I would look for a more modern
feel.

But in terms of, you know, these people
in cattle country, the way it was shot

and everything. I think it holds up
really well.

So the guys in the cell, the scumbags,
as Hoyt Acton calls

them, are, of course, a red herring.

But it's interesting with their bonfire,
they tag the car, Satan was here,

which, as well as leaning into a
certain...

phase that would hit the 80s pretty hard
um satanists were often targeted as

possible perpetrators of cattle
mutilation in the 70s um as you know all

sort of association with severed goat
heads and all that sort of thing um when

they didn't point the fingers at ufos
they're pointing it at satanists but of

course uh it was around 1980 that
satanic panic would really

sweep the United States. It was kind of
happening and it was bubbling up in the

70s and films like Race with the Devil
and The Omen and sort of post -exorcist,

I guess, started to fuel those fears.

But in the 80s, they'd really go into
overdrive. And yeah, so that sort of

into that. But I do also feel like this
film and the writers in particular are

picking off all...

the alleged causes of cattle mutilations
and going, nope, not it, nope, not that

one, until they get to the one that they
feel is the main reason.

Yeah, absolutely.

And absolutely the idea of the threats
that, you know, surface.

So obviously, you know, you've got
Russia, perhaps, you know, war anxiety,

fear of communism, the fear of Russia
being one step ahead of Russia, et

America being under threat.

Also, interestingly enough, J. Beth
Williams stars in an amazing made -for

film called The Day After in 1983, which
was all about that. It was all about

the sort of fear of nuclear warfare,
etc.

And that was, you know, aired for Ronald
Reagan in the White House before it

even aired for the public.

You know, he didn't want it to be aired.

But all this kind of interesting stuff
that was happening. But yeah, the

panic stuff is really fascinating.

And cattle mutilation, the animal
sacrifice and baby sacrifices, all that

was kind of big in the cultural
zeitgeist. You had TV talk shows sort of

exposing Satanism and child abuse and
satanic cults. You had all the cases

the primary schools, sorry, the
elementary schools.

Geraldo would do a big special on
satanic panic. So that was a big thing

happening in the culture as well. But
the UFO thing, the alien...

cattle mutilations that pops up um in a
lot of sort of pop cultural landscapes

such as tv and film and comic books etc
but also it's kind of um a lot of times

linked to a lot of what was happening in
the touch me therapy fads as well um

there was this whole notion that uh if
you weren't at peace with the aliens

are coming you're not in peace with
yourself and things such as cattle

mutilations will be a manifestation of
you not being at peace

And people exploited that in their, or
used that in their writing and their

creativity. Someone like John Sayles,
who actually had like a whole subplot

written for his screenplay for The
Howling, which is all about a community

werewolves who were supposed to be
getting in touch with their inner, you

their lycanthropy and their inner selves
and coming to peace with their

werewolfism. And that whole film and
that script is all a commentary on those

therapies and est and, you know,
iridology and all these sort of things

people were going into.

and experimenting with, but also in
touch with that is this cattle

idea. Obviously the werewolves
themselves are farming cattle to sort of

their werewolves.

um needs to kill humans so they're
feeding off cattle but there's a great

throwaway line where um uh slim pickens
i believe or noble winning to one of

them says to john carodine's character
you know keep watching the sky it's

ufos and carodine says yeah it's ufos i
tell you that are doing this they're all

covering it up so d wallace doesn't
figure out that's them these werewolves

doing it but it's interesting that um
cattle mutilation becomes this sort of

that people actually studied and there
were scientists researching it. And the

fact that the cattle themselves weren't
bloodless, so they'd be mutilated with

organs removed and body parts removed,
but no sign of

bloodletting. So all that kind of
bizarre stuff was sort of...

freaking people yeah well when it when
it first started in 1960 uh so the the

although there'd been the odd history of
uh the odd mutilation

mutilated animal event throughout time
in america there was there was an

isolated incident of a horse named um uh
what is i've got it here uh

squiggy or something like that um

snippy and poor snippy was left
bloodless and surgically altered in 1967

even then it was being blamed on ufos uh
which was this was before it became an

epidemic when it was just kind of a one
-time only event but it was in 1973 on

december 4th when seven counties across
kansas and nebraska reported mutilated

cattle um and the those numbers grew to
38 cattle deaths across 11

counties. And it was alleged that the
cattle's sexual organs had been

removed. So you want to talk about
weird.

And again, it brought up this thing like
bloodlet certain organs removed like

that. Oh, okay. Sudden Robert Urich nude
scene alert.

I did not expect Vegas' Dan Tanner to be
in the all together.

Just in a minute.

I'll let you collect yourself there.

So, cattle... I might need a sec.

Yeah, but this continued throughout the
1970s to the point where FBI and CIA

investigations were launched into why
this was happening.

It was happening throughout the Western
Midwest throughout the... through to

about 78, 79.

And I'm pretty sure she just squeezed
his nuts and punched him then. That's

great. Good response.

Good on her. Good on her.

But, yeah, it became this sort of
nationwide kind of

fear of this, what was doing this.

You know, I guess a lot of 70s...

Phenomenons like crop circles were
coming around at the same time as well.

And, you know, you had TV shows like In
Search Of and... Alan

Landsberg, amazing stuff.

I spoke to his... Chariot of the Gods.
Yeah, she had amazing stories about that

theory. Actually, I have original
scripts from that.

In search of.

Yeah, in search of. But that kind of
stuff is really fascinating, all the

cryptoids and also the sort of suburban
myths that sort of generated hysteria

and urban legends, like things like
alligators in the sewers.

You know, all this stuff that was kind
of legend, you know.

things that people sort of discussed and
talked about. And also mums and dads

would threaten their children with it.

But, you know, things like Roswell,
these are major events.

These are kind of really interesting
stuff that was happening.

And films played into that. They played
into that paranoia. And it's interesting

with the early 80s, you know, you have a
wave of, like, science fiction movies

and they sort of vary from benign
offerings like Starman and E .T. to

threatening films, you know, which
really are.

talking about otherness and the fear of
the other, like the thing that happened

in the remake of the 50s film. But it's
kind of interesting that that's

happening at the same time as Cold War
anxiety and work about Russia being the

threat.

And you have that with as varied as
films such as War Games and all

the sort of action movies that we're
dealing with to Broadway musicals like

Chess. So you have all this sort of
stuff happening where people are kind of

talking about the Cold War and talking
about Cold War anxieties and paranoia

films such as this huge epic TV film.

that I think rivaled even the American
football game, the Super Bowl.

Oh, the Super Bowl, yeah. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, in spectatorship. So these are

events. These are major TV events and
film events that talk about it and

capitalise on this.

But, yeah, Carolyn Pfeiffer sort of
discusses the concept of...

the cattle mutilation as something that
was really of keen interest to the

riders. So we'll listen to her talk
about that now.

You know, I mean, I can only speak for
myself because I don't remember what it

was with Alan. I mean, it just was a
very intriguing

puzzle to solve.

So we never...

We made narrative decisions to have it
be germ warfare testing,

but that involved the Russians, which
ironically has come around again today,

too. Suddenly they're the villains
again, big time.

But I think it was an intriguing
narrative, an

intriguing puzzle to try and figure out
what the heck was going on.

I did a film in Roswell, New Mexico, so
I was near where that, the famous

sort of alleged spaceship landing that's
being hidden by the U .S. government

was in Roswell.

But that was years later, a film that
Sam Shepard directed that I produced.

You know, it was just in the air. We
just responded to it in a narrative

fashion. It's not that, I mean, all I
can tell you is at the end of the movie,

had so much cow paraphernalia from salt
shakers. And I think I still have cream

pitchers and everything that you can
imagine. They would have a cow made like

cow, look like a cow, shape like a cow.
I got for Christmas and birthdays for

about three years afterwards.

But it was no more than the story.

And then making our choice.

I mean, and making our choice. And we
just thought, we thought, and it was.

It really was in the newspapers all over
the place.

And there were other projects in the
air.

I never read anything else, but I did
hear that John

Tarnikoff, he worked at MGM, a nice
young fellow. He was our production

executive. John Tarnikoff, I think was,
I'm not saying it right, but I know he

had been approached with other.

projects that also dealt with this
phenomenon of cattle mutilation.

Yeah, about the cows.

There's this amazing line that I, as a
vegetarian, really appreciated that Paul

Dooley's character says.

He says, you know cows have to be the
most blameless creatures in the world.

eat them, we drink them, we wear them.
They don't bite, they don't even shit on

the sidewalk.

Which I really, really love that. It's
like, yeah, they are like...

incredibly blameless, like all animals.
But it's a sweet sentiment, and it's one

that many films don't take the time to
make.

So, this film is very horror adjacent.

As I was saying earlier, it's a bit of a
genre mash.

And looking at, you know, Alan Rudolph
is often thought as the director of kind

of ensemble relationship dramas, you
know, films like Choose Me and The

and Mrs.

Parker and the Vicious Circle.

But the thing is, he started out in
horror. His first two films, Premonition

Barn of the Naked Dead, which is also
known as Terror Circus, which is also

known as Nightmare Circus, were straight
up, like, kind of low -budget,

you know, kind of drive -in horror
movies.

And then he aligned with Altman and then
came out with Welcome to L .A.,

which... you know, in its own way, felt
sort of lightly Altman -esque and

shared some cast members and a kind of a
freewheeling kind of style. And then

from there, he went on to the female
revenge drama thriller.

Remember My Name with Geraldine Chaplin,
which again is kind of, you know, again

a little heightened.

And then from there went to Rhodey in
1980, in which I believe he teamed

with Carolyn, the film's producer.

Absolutely. And yes, you told me all
about that.

Well, I first met Alan through Robert
Altman because I had a PR company in

London, and Altman was a client. I
handled all of his films from the

the English release of his films from
MASH through Nashville.

So when I moved back to the States, I
went to work with Shep Gordon

to create Alive Films, and Shep had a
deal.

with ABC, I think it's called Midnight
Special or something like that, to do,

they usually did concerts, artists,
musical acts in concert, but they,

Alice Cooper's, Alice Cooper was TIP's
big client at the time, and because

Alice, his shows that went on tour were
like

little mini rock operas. You know, they
all had a narrative and a villain, and

they had, they were all.

And so Shep had a deal with ABC to do

this particular show called Welcome to
My Nightmare.

And Shep actually put me on as the
producer.

And I had never produced anything
before, but I'd been around a lot of

directors and producers and kind of knew
my way around it a little bit.

But we needed someone to bring this
musical show into some kind of, again, a

narrative. And I went to Bob Altman and
asked him who he would recommend, and he

recommended Alan Rudolph. And that's how
Alan Rudolph and I started working

together. Alan did not direct it, but he
wrote out a little telescript so that

we would have – and it went on to win an
Emmy for editing, of all things.

So anyway, so we would have a storyline
to follow.

Then Alan started pitching me things, I
think.

And I think what happened was with
Rhodey,

I believe we were all having dinner at
our house, my late husband and I,

Alan, his wife Joyce, Zalman King, and
his wife Patsy.

And I think Zalman...

started telling us about this character
called Travis Redfish that had been

created by these two young writers out
of Austin, Texas called Big Boy Medlin

and Michael Ventura. And now they had
just come to him about this character

taking this character who was like a
running character in the Austin

or something.

They had a column about the adventures
of Travis Redfish and making a film out

of it. And so out of that, The idea of
Rhodey was born.

We went, Jim Wyatt, who was a big agent
at the time.

Actually, I lied.

Jim agent, Sue Mingus was a big agent at
the time. She was Alan's agent.

She was out of town.

And Jim Wyatt was like this junior agent
coming up. And she, while she was away,

she asked Jim Wyatt to handle Alan.

So we went to Jim and we said, and then
Jim ended up running, you know.

ICM, and then William Morris, Endeavor,
and this, that, and the other. But at

that time, he was a young agent. So he
went to United Artists.

And everyone knew everyone in those
days. So it was Claire Townsend, and I'm

trying to remember the name of the guys.

And we went in and did it as a pitch.

And it was, and they said, will you all
step out of the room for a minute? And

Jim was with us.

We stepped out of the room, and the
execs did their little confabbing and

said, yeah, we want to develop this. We
want to make a deal. We want you to

write a screenplay, and we want to be
shooting by – this was spring. We want

be shooting by fall.

And I didn't have an agent at the time,
so I said, Jimmy, will you please

represent me too? And so he became our
agent and was our agent until I left.

Los Angeles, basically.

And then eventually he retired.

And so Jimmy made the deal.

The guys wrote the script.

And we were shooting by fall.

That's the story of Rhodey. Now, it
doesn't always happen that way, as you

know. But it was the opposite of
Endangered Species. First of all, it was

comedy.

Once we cast...

Meatloaf. Meatloaf was easy to work
with.

I mean, he did not give us any problems.

And I think he was thrilled to be doing
it. I know that he had a reputation for

being a little difficult at times, but I
remember nothing negative about him

from our film.

And then, you know, we cast everybody
else, and then we used a lot of Shep's

clients, like Alice was his client.

And so it was not, I don't remember it
as a film. And then we had Debbie.

Debbie Harry and Blondie.

And then we had a lot of Texas artists.

And shooting in Austin, it was shot in
Austin, Texas.

I mean, it was just a very pleasant
experience.

We had problems when it came time to
release the picture.

And then United Artists was going
through problems, and then they just

don't know if it didn't test well or
whatever the heck happened, but it just

didn't, it never got a decent release.

And, you know, it was a fun movie.

And then after that, Endangered Species
came into our lives, and so that's where

our focus went.

After Endangered Species, at the end of
Endangered Species, Alan said to me, he

said he remembered we were in the car
driving away from Boulder, Colorado, or

living location or something, and he
said, you know, we need to find another

of making movies because...

This is just too hard after Endangered
Species.

Then we were friends with Timothy Leary
and his wife Barbara, and Timmy called

me and said he was doing this tour,

personal appearance thing with Gordon
Liddy, and he'd love it if I could find

some way to record it.

So I went to Alan.

and asked him if he would do it with me.

And he wasn't wildly enthusiastic
because he didn't like either one of

much, but he agreed to join in since it
was a documentary.

And then Chris Blackwell of Island
Records was a close friend of my

husband's, and he had just started
making films, and I went to Chris, and

said yes, and he put up the money for us
to shoot the documentary.

We came in on budget, on schedule. It
was the first time Chris had had a film

done that didn't cause him problems.

And so then he came back to me and asked
if we would form Island Alive with him.

And so that was how Island Alive was
formed.

So just going back to what I was talking
about with that kind of wave, with that

cycle of the poor white folk films or
the rural movies that was talking about

farming communities and discussing
farming communities and what happened to

these people during this period.

This film is totally, I think, on par
with that, and it has that whistleblower

sensibility that still could Norma Rae
-esque aspect to it. I don't know if you

feel the same way, Paul. I think you do.

But it sort of seems to have that sort
of sensibility.

And also what it sort of does with these
characters that have to sort of face up

against people who don't want to, you
know...

learn the truth um or sort of deny the
truth and that's something that's very

small town um you know these tropes that
sort of pop up in all these sort of

small town films and you can look at
that throughout all multiple genres like

the horror film does that really well um
you know not listening to the character

who sort of sits on the fringes or the
character who knows the truth but that

kind of the woman not listening to the
woman well exactly that's right So it's

always about someone who kind of wants
to whistleblower, whether it's Streep

Silkwood or Sally Field and Norma Raitt,
et cetera, who want to help the others

and also the others that they're
surrounded by.

are a community of very oppressed
people, people who are kind of, you

-income, people who rely on one sort of
industry.

So, for instance, if you look at Norma
Rae, it's one industry. It was still

called the nuclear plant, which is
obviously a very dangerous place to

Here, it's the cattle ranch. It's a
cattle community.

So I actually asked Carolyn Pfeiffer,
the producer, and, God, she was

to talk to. Just a brilliant mind and an
amazing artist. And I wanted to ask...

her about that wave of films that was
happening and if she was sort of aware

coming into this movie from that
perspective and her response was really

interesting because she did talk about
how when you are working um on a film

you're not thinking about that there'd
be other people possibly thinking about

that but not normally so what happens is
this sort of cultural um this zeitgeist

sort of stuff happens

in kind of a retrospect or from an
outsider perspective.

So people like you and I, as critics,
can see that. But if you're in the thick

of it and making these films, you
probably don't pick that up. You don't

if you're making Cold Mind and Daughter
that Sweet Dreams is also happening at

the same time.

So there's that kind of interesting
thing where trends and stuff and fads

cultural explosions of one kind of
umbrella story

type or thing.

is something that's kind of just
something that's happening and no one

Yeah.

It's a creative... It's like a
collective consciousness.

Yeah. That all gets born out of that.
And there seems to be, in American

in the late 70s and early 80s, this
more... this embrace of the heartland.

Yes. um you know yeah but even shows
like you know tv shows

about and movies about truck drivers and
you know like convoy and bj and the

bear and you know smoking the bandit and
um but also you know whether it's

sensitive drama or sensitive dramas like
tender mercy's cold minus daughter um

country things like that yeah but yeah
there seemed to be this this very 70s

kind of let's let's you know, look out
beyond the coast and beyond the kind of

the glamour and to, you know, the real,
the real folk, you know, the heartland

of America.

And, yeah, Dukes of Hazzard is another,
you know what I mean? Like, yeah, like

this sort of... Which is bizarre because
it kind of, it's kind of like coming

out of the rural purge, which happened
in the early 70s, where in television,

you know, CBS, which was like the
country network, the rural network.

started to pull all their shows.

So Green Acres, Beverly Hillbillies, all
these shows disappeared to make way for

urban landscape shows.

And then later, as you're saying, it
kind of wanted to come back up. I think

things like Little House on the Prairie.
The Waltons. The Waltons, yeah. People

wanted those kind of old -fashioned
values back in there because what they

countering as well during the early 80s
was excess.

Cinema of the excesses. Action movies
were huge.

There was the sort of exploitation
movement that was kind of portraying

the mainstream with your tna films you
had also the hyper glamour films and tv

shows you know dynasty and stuff was
sort of expressing itself on television

this kind of like counter to all this
stuff yeah charlie's angels and yeah

oh yeah the bouncy tv yeah that's great
but all that's really interesting that's

kind of like this sort of weird balance
because These country films, these rural

films were huge. They were like, you
know, and they're quite quiet and

quaint because, I mean, it's kind of
their nature, being where they are. But

they also did big business, like, and,
you know, really also were real actory

pieces, you know, and also sort of
really...

celebrated certain performers, like
people like Jessica Lange and people

Sam Shepard and people like Sally Field.

These people really had, this is SpaceX,
Tommy Lee Jones. These people had real

earthy, you know, sensibility of that
kind of

poor white person, you know, vibe,
right? Do you know what I mean? Like

kind of, that rural.

um person and most of them came from
that background you know jessica lang

certainly did sissy spacex certainly did
they were all sort of country folk um

doing these films so yeah it's really
interesting but yeah carolyn was kind of

like well you know this was um our film
that we were making we came in from this

different perspective and yeah when you
look back at it absolutely but at the

time most certainly not um something
that was on the radar um and i'll

bounced to her now, but we are being
introduced to Peter Coyote, and

interestingly enough, going back to what
I was saying about Benign Alien, Peter

Coyote was in E .T., which was released
in 1982, and he looks very different to

Keith. Yeah.

A little bit more of a different
attitude.

Yeah.

It's crazy how, yeah, again, the Amblin
adjacent casting as well.

I always thought Peter Coyote and Kevin
Costner should play brothers in

something. Oh my God, I've got so many
of those things, like Frederick Forrest

and Robert Forster should have played
brothers.

That's crazy.

Yeah, Sybil Shepard and Kathleen Turner
should have played sisters. Oh, yes.

Yeah, but let's jump to the wonderful
Carolyn Pfeiffer.

Generally, in my experience, and I've
been working in the movie business for

like more than 60 years, my friend, so I
worked on...

Fellini's Eight and a Half. I mean, I
worked with Claudia Cardinale's

on Eight and a Half, on The Leopard, on
The First Pink Panther, which was, of

course, like Edwards in an American
comedy. But you're caught up in a way

that it's not... In my experience, it's

very ethereal. It's very much...

the sensibilities of the movement of the
art.

It's not something that's been
intellectualized and processed and

I mean, yes, I would say at the studio
level or the distributor level,

you know, one is sensitive to what the
audience is responding

to. And choices are made because of
that. We know that there are many no

at this moment in time, certainly in the
United States, about

things that you simply don't do or deal
with or talk about

or say or whatever because of social
sensibilities.

But I would say from a filmmaker's point
of view, It's just much more

gut than that. It's not really so
looking for the right words. And I

said intellectual before. In a way,
that's what I mean.

These are just things that feel correct.

And sometimes, as you know, they happen
in waves, inexplainably, that three

films are made on the same subject.

But if you go back to...

Neo -realism, then the New Wave, then
the American Independent.

I mean, I think perhaps, I mean, it was
coming out of, it was veering away from

studio -produced, mass -produced
pictures, and there were more

perhaps, and you know better than I do,
there were more perhaps, there were just

more coming from...

The stories of the filmmakers, rather
than being mass -produced as

entertainment, so that suddenly this
entertainment was also having more

commentary, and therefore it went into
the hinterlands, if you like, Coal

Miner's Daughter. I mean, some of the
directors were English, and then there

also the English movement of the kitchen
sink films that were dealing with the

working classes.

I mean, filmmaking, moviemaking was...

It was just going through its forms the
way art goes through forms.

Always love a Dan Hedaya sighting.

So the guy talking to him, he's just
credited as mercenary in the film. His

is...

John Perry Barlow, and he's a guy who
wrote lyrics for The Grateful Dead,

on Dick Cheney's congressional campaign
in the 70s as a kind of political

consultant, and then was an early
advocate for internet rights in the

through to the 2000s. Became kind of
obsessed with the internet as a portal

thought and commerce, and sort of worked
both sides of the

political divide. He's kind of a
fascinating...

fascinating guy who was a little
controversial at times. He even

the CIA how, testified that the CIA
helped invent Facebook with Zuckerberg.

So yeah, he's just there.

But shall we turn our gaze to the great
Jo Beth Williams?

Absolutely. So I...

I'm obsessed with her. I love her
performance style. I think she's so

so strong and vulnerable, and there's a
softness and gentleness to her, but also

this really sassy strength.

um earthiness just a really dynamic
versatile actress she kind of reminds me

lot of what was happening sort of post
70s and coming into the 80s where it was

kind of method actors sort of
strasburgian but also um they were

actors that plotted into these big
blockbuster movies but bringing in that

beautiful theatrical sort of essence to
the sort of sort of big blockbuster

showy movie so if you look at her in
Poltergeist she's so brilliant like

such a complexity to her there's
elements in Poltergeist that are very

stagey with the best intention of using
that term.

You know, there's these sequences that
are elongated that read like a play,

which I think she just shines in. Such a
fabulous powerhouse of women in that

movie as well. Her occupying the same
space as Beatrice Strait and Zelda

Rubinstein, etc.

But Jo Beth reminds me of those great
women of that period, such as Bonnie

Bedelia, you know, all these actresses
that were kind of, Gina Rollins, Jane

Alexander, just This is incredible. Jill
Kleberg.

Yes, Jill Kleberg, absolutely.

Just that kind of real effortlessness in
their performances, this real beautiful

effortlessness. I love that direction.

Yeah, this whole sequence with them sort
of hooking up, that was instructed by

the studio, and Carolyn Pfeiffer told me
all about that, and she'll talk about

that later. But, yeah, it's really
interesting that that was something that

to be sort of inserted.

I mean, it's sort of mandatory, right?
Hollywood saying, you know... Yeah.

But, yeah, I love Jo Beth. I just think
everything about her is wonderful, and I

like how she plays off different men.
Like, her and Craig T. Nelson in

Poltergeist have great rapport, and in
this, I think there's really cool sort

of... back and forths um and of course
as well it's her having to be

by this leading man but she's you know
antagonized throughout the whole um film

but yeah let's hear um carolyn pfeiffer
talk about the casting of joe beth

williams and also i asked um carolyn

about the idea of the character having
to be pitted against men throughout the

film. And it's obvious she has to. I
guess it's kind of mandatory. It

be sort of right if it was easy for her.
It wouldn't make sense, in a sense.

But that kind of fight fuels her and
makes her even more of a strong person,

feel. So, yeah, let's hear what Carolyn
has to say about that.

Jo Beth was just, she was at the
beginning of her career.

Our casting director, Mike Fenton, I
don't remember how we got to her. I

remember if Mike suggested her or if she
was on Alan's radar.

But however it was, we met her, we liked
her. I don't believe we ever had anyone

else in mind other than Jo Beth. And she
was a gem.

G -E -M.

She just was.

A pleasure to work with.

She always delivered. She was just
really good.

And her career took off not because of
endangered

species, but certainly I think her work
in it must have affected her going

forward in the career that she had
because she's just so good, you know.

So Carolyn Pfeiffer would go on to tell
me the stuff about the character, the Jo

Beth Williams character, and what she
had to face and what that deal is. But

then it was really interesting because
she went off into sort of talking about

women in the industry behind the camera,
so producers like herself and women

directors. It was really fascinating to
hear that kind of in comparison to what

Jo Beth Williams' character sort of
faces as a sheriff, as someone in power

who's not taken seriously.

It was what was going on at the time, my
friend. You know, it just was.

I mean, and it was certainly before the
Me Too movement. And it was,

you know, women were not really
respected as equals.

And that's what I thought Jo Beth did so
wonderfully well was to find that

balance of strength.

In the character and at the same time,
vulnerability, you know. I mean, there's

that moment where she's getting mashed
up in the bar and our hero saves her or

thinks he's trying to save her and then
she gets really mad. But then later we

see her actually, you know, I can't
remember the same character, but she

in and she really like...

flattens a couple of guys in another
situation so she had the physical

to um and training uh her character to

to um to take care of herself it it
would seem she was not you know you

knock her over so easily yeah i mean
that that you know we've all come a long

way um and i that was

That even goes back, if you go back to
characters, you know, the famous

Katharine Hepburn characters where, you
know, these are really, really strong

women.

But they have to be cunning at the same
time, you know, because they are women.

I will say when I started as a producer
and made my way up through the years,

there were no women directors that I was
aware of. And then occasionally someone

would come to the door.

And I would be even, myself as a woman
producer, tentative,

worrying whether or not they could
manage a male crew and or a –

I wasn't so worried about cast because
generally actors I found would be

more open to female directors.

As the years went by, I too started to
work with some women directors.

And I just will tell you that in my
experience, they have to be better

prepared than many men directors, and
they have to really know what they're

doing, and then they have to surround
themselves with a crew that respects

and then they're fine.

But it's been a long time coming.

I'm part of a little program here in
Marfa, and we screen films.

directed by women for the community. We
have a lovely little theater, about a

200 -seater, and it's a pro bono place.

And we raised some money, and so we're
able to pay a distribution fee.

There are a lot of women directors
working around the world and a lot of

good ones.

And I know this because they may not all
be making blockbuster commercial

pictures, but they're working in many
countries.

We had been doing two or three films a
month. We obviously slowed down during

COVID, but we're picking back up again.

So they're out there, you know, whether
it be South America, Mexico, France,

Germany, Australia.

We'll just keep chipping away at it,
dude. We'll just keep chipping away at

you know.

So I feel like the screenwriters were
very, the original screenwriters of the

piece.

were very focused on this, fascinated
with the phenomenon of the cattle

mutilations, but in particular the
theory behind why they were happening.

There's a couple of great helicopter
reveals here. That is definitely one of

them. But they're very concerned with
the angle because the film

starts and ends is literally bookended
by title cards that tell you...

As of 1969, chemical and germ warfare
research and chemical

and germ warfare in general was banned
by the US government.

But there seems to be a kind of a,
whatever the 70s equivalent of the dark

was, kind of theories, conspiracy
theories around

privately funded paramilitary groups.

who didn't want to see the US fall
behind Russia in the arms race.

And we're seeing other countries, and
particularly in the Middle East as well,

with that unrest beginning in, you know,
also stoked by the US, beginning in the

1970s, were afraid that they were
falling behind on that arms race and

well, if our government isn't going to
step up our weapons game, we're going to

do it ourselves.

The theory goes we're going to
experiment on the effects on cows.

Because as Paul Dooley's Newsman
character said very helpfully earlier in

movie, the thing he noticed was that the
reproductive and nervous systems of

humans and cows were incredibly similar.

Which is why...

The theory goes that these organisations
would do experiments on

cows. Now, as I said, there were two

independent federal investigations into
this, and the FBI looked into it and

couldn't find any hard and fast
conclusions.

They...

They made an investigation in May 1979,
which would have been the year before

this was shot, which gives you an idea
of where the screenwriters' heads were

at.

And it was particularly regarding cases
that happened in New Mexico.

The 297 -page -long FBI report was
inconclusive,

but they did come out with a figure
that... By 1979, some 10 ,000 head of

had been mysteriously mutilated. And
that's a credit that's used at the end

the movie. So they've clearly been tuned
in to this

FBI report and all the stuff that was
going on. And I think their aim was

trying to get this in front of a
commercial audience to make, you know,

a genre film, to make people aware
that... hey, this stuff is going on and

might be some pretty dark people doing
it.

Unfortunately, the film only made one
-fifth of its budget back, so the

didn't get out very far.

It grossed $1 .5 million on a budget of
$7 million.

And I have a feeling that disappointed
some people.

I mean, obviously the flop did, but that
message getting out there on a wider

basis, the fact that it didn't hit the
audience.

they intended um with the with the
disappointment to a lot of people

the film but it's really i love what
you're saying about how um the film was

message piece as well and that's
something that happens a lot with these

during this period when environmental
awareness comes as you know it comes to

the fold and comes to the fore of public
consciousness so if you look at even

like even more independent films, such
as Film Ventura's production of Day of

the Animals from William Girdler, that
was all about the ozone depletion

affecting animals, right? And ozone
depletion being a major concern.

And Linda Day George and Christopher
George, the stars of the movies,

for that. They were trying to make
people aware that aerosols and CFC

stuff will actually...

you know, destroy the planet ultimately
and destroy the ozone layer. So things

like that was sort of really hand in
hand with yet fun horror films and

sci -fi films and adventure films, but
also these messages, these really

fundamentally important messages about
the environment.

And also germ warfare. And a lot of eco
-horror does that throughout the 70s

because people are becoming more aware
about pesticides, the effects of

pesticides, the effects of genetic
engineering.

Animal rights was becoming a big deal.
So this film talks about how cows are

linked to us as we sort of share similar
body types or DNA types, etc.

So that's really interesting because
that sort of starts to feed into the

culture of film where people start to be
caring and more considerate.

considerate to animals in film at the
same time as working with animals in

So you have people like Carl Lewis
Miller and Susan Bacalini and all these

people who were, you know, George Toth
and all these people who were animal

trainers who also were activists for
animals and cared about animal rights.

Frank Juanita Inn, who gave us Benji, et
cetera. All these people were really

devoted to not only...

putting animals on the screen so people
had a face to go with these animals that

people need to care about, but also
cared about the actual welfare of

This is amazing.

This is where the film kind of tips
into, like, okay, cool, now we get some

gore. But the gore effects are
wonderful. I really love it.

Carolyn Pfeiffer mentioned that she
wished, you know, they were better, but

actually really love it. I dig them.

They're kind of insane.

Yeah, it turns into, like...

butterfilm for a bit.

Which is cool. But yeah, I feel like...

Carolyn didn't mention this, but perhaps
the studio could have intercepted and

said, you know, let's have some gore
because this was early 80s and, you

the excess of visceral sort of on
-screen violence was a big deal and it

got audiences in.

It also sometimes was used as a
marketing tool.

So, for instance, if you think of kind
of low -key, really smart kind of horror

films that were happening around the
time, one of your favourites and my

favourites that is yet to have a Blu
-ray release upon this date, which is,

know, March 2023, a film called Bowls, a
.k .a. Murder by Phone.

That was advertised with, you know, the
sensationalism of these people getting

killed by answering a phone.

But when you watch the movie, it's like
really smart, like savvy tech horror

stuff. But the idea was let's sell it
and market it as this whole concept of

excessive gore. People bleeding,
bleeding from every orifice as they

phone. And this is great with Hoydak
having this issue.

But yeah, like really interesting
production history was shared by Carolyn

Fifar. So yeah, let's hear some more of
it.

So I remember we started shooting and
Freddie Hills was head of production

and Bigelman was over him.

And we were just waiting for someone to
call. We were shipping the dailies back

as one did in those days to Hollywood.

And nobody was saying anything in the
beginning.

And then we couldn't understand why we
were getting no silence because we were

looking at dailies and we thought they
looked great.

So one day I think somebody comes on set
and says, you know, this is free cell

phone. You know, there's a.

Freddie Pilsen's on the phone, so I run
to the phone, and I think he's going to

say something about the dailies.

But he says, hey, Carolyn, you know that
piece of furniture in the newspaper

editor's office?

Could you have it shipped to me after
you wrap that set?

And that's all he said.

So that was something that was like kind
of shocking to me, frankly.

You know, I just thought.

I mean, they were very successful
agents, and they handled great talent. I

I want to say, amongst the others, Judy
Garland, you know, but that was just so

unfeeling to young filmmakers.

So that's my memory of the first call
that we got from the studio.

You know, so we had a lot of
interference. It's not a film that has

memories from that.

from that point of view.

But the things that were great about it
was we loved these

little towns that we were shooting in. I
remember my husband and I, I found

we were looking for places to house
everyone, and we got really lucky

there was someone moving.

Out of the area. And they were leaving
their house and their fading vegetable

garden filled with vegetables and fruit
and looking for someone to rent the

house. And we rented the house and had
all the

deliciousness of a summer garden that
went with it.

You know, I mean, the crew, everybody
was happy. I remember it was my first

in a helicopter. I got to go up in the
helicopter. I was the only one who could

go up in the helicopter because I was
the only one that insurance didn't

if the helicopter crashed or not. So the
actress couldn't go up. Alan couldn't

go up.

But I could. So I remember that.

We then moved down to Boulder, Colorado,
and we were shooting inside of an

old...

of some kind when we were shooting the
silo.

And I can't remember if we were down
there for a week or 10 days, whatever we

were down there.

And I thought that the set dresser did a
good, I mean, the production designer

did a good job and the set dresser.

But I do remember them going over
budget. And it was only my second

producer.

It was a big lesson to learn that one of
the departments you have to really,

really watch is production design.

And so that was a lesson for me as a
young producer at the time, where

you could go, you know, construction in
particular, but everything in that

department were areas where you had
to...

monitor extremely careful and we weren't
on computers it was all at that time it

was all it was all manual you know you'd
have you couldn't look at a couldn't

look at a sheet and see where you were
every day you had to wait until at the

end of the week everything was like
added up and you went in you had

with the accountants and the department
heads and the production manager you

figured out where you were over budget
so um all of that was i mean a big

learning experience for me i i I don't
believe we went over budget. I have no

memory of having any budget problems. In
fact, I sort of prided myself in the

early years of coming in on time and on
budget on films.

And Alan was a delight to work with
because Alan is, you know, if you have a

problem and you go to him, he will help
you solve that problem.

And like on the moderns, we didn't have
enough to build a room.

So, you know, we shot the scene in a
corner, you know, things like that.

And it was low budget film. And I don't
even remember the budget of Endangered

Species anymore.

So this film, I guess, would be one of
the ripped from the headlines films.

And that's really interesting because
that's kind of like decades old by the

early 80s. So ripped from the headlines
movies pretty much originated.

in the 20s, and they really came into
their own and flourished in the 30s. So

you look at a lot of pre -code stuff
from the early 30s and then into the

and into the production code of the mid
to late 30s, a lot of these popped up.

Films like Marked Woman with Betty
Davis, a lot of the gangster pictures, a

of films about trafficking and gangster
warfare and urban crime,

a lot of kidnap.

stories were ripped from the headlines
and these are really kind of marketable

films and they were quickly made and
churned out quickly and they kind of

screenwriters basically used the
articles that were printed as blueprints

flesh out a story and would make these
really economically written pieces based

on a column or like a 2000 word piece.

So this film is really interesting that
it sort of follows that good cool

tradition, which was very popular in the
30s.

Screenwriters, of course, then would
become, I guess, quote -unquote more

sophisticated by the time you get to the
very late 30s into the 40s, where

things like that wouldn't be the go -to
anymore. But this resurgence of it sort

of starts to prop up again when you
think about things like this film.

A lot of things sort of pop up where
they want to sort of look back at

periodicals and look at articles.

and also not just news articles

but pieces, so essays.

Films would be inspired by essays or
pieces. In the 80s, you actually have

resurgence happening in the early 80s.
One that comes to mind just offhand is

something like Perfect, which is a
totally different age and species, but

about the body, you know, and about the
body doing something, you know, staying

healthy and staying well and wanting to
be young forever, etc.

So this film's kind of about, you know,
wanting to survive and not be, you know,

mutilated.

That film was based on articles as well
about the health craze. So it's really

interesting how there's a sort of
resurgence of something that was so

age. It's really cool.

Yeah, getting on that sort of thing. And
I feel like Ellen Rudolph was a

fairly politically engaged person at
this point.

His project after this...

interestingly, was a documentary called
Return Engagement, which was about the

touring debate between LSD proponent
Timothy Leary

and former Nixon staffer G.

Gordon Liddy.

And it was this kind of sort of Buckley
-Vidal style

touring debate that these guys had. So
he's clearly interested in the state

of of america and i think this has a
very big nine post 1970s

sort of don't keep an eye on what your
government are up to don't trust them

look you know look carefully even if
it's not the capital g government

themselves there's government operatives
that have their own back deals and

they're going rogue and organizing
little things with with uh cashed up

and you know running their little

Yeah, running their little germ warfare
plan in country towns, you know, backed

by rich ranchers.

Yeah, and also just jumping on your
tailcoat about people involved with this

film who are political, it's interesting
and kind of ironic that Peter Coyote is

playing the villain, you know, this
government guy, because he as a person

very much...

into environmentalism and activism.

There's a really great documentary. When
I was in my early teens, I was obsessed

with, like, 60s counterculture. Like,
just crazily obsessed. And there was a

really cool documentary all about the
hippie movement and commune living and

activism that came from the anti -war
movement and the hippie movement, et

cetera, the flower child.

sort of movement, et cetera. And he pops
up as one of the talking heads. He's in

there. Oh, wow. Yeah, and he talks about
his involvement with the movement and

anti -Vietnam War protesting, et cetera.
But he was a really fascinating figure

in that regard because I always thought
of him, you know, as the guy that wants

to find E .T., you know, that was the
thing. So it was interesting to see him.

as a real person.

So it's kind of like it's cool that he
gets to play this villain because it's

kind of like maybe it's a bit cathartic,
who knows? But also just kind of like

to point out how dastardly, you know,
something that he's fought against for

of his youth and, you know, probably
still does, is.

So it's kind of cool that he paints him
as a little bit of a caricature, but

also someone who is quite threatening.

Hmm. Yeah, I think a lot of actors do
that. I think a lot of actors play the

other type to highlight those kind of
characters, those ugly characters, yeah.

It's like John Cusack nowadays spends a
lot of his time sort of bagging

out tech billionaires on social media
and you look at his role from the last

years and they're mostly playing evil
tech billionaires.

So, yeah, I think that feeds a lot into,
you know, why Coyote would play a

character like this. I love seeing Jo
Beth Williams kick ass hand to hand as

well. I love this inferred background
they have about her being in the army

something that her, it's briefly
mentioned, but it's something her and

Yurik's character, have in common, that
they're both vets.

Yeah, it kind of links them. And also, I
guess, brings them together physically.

I mean, there's that early sequence in
the bar where they're both taking on

other. But it's interesting as well,
this early 80s thing. We talked a little

bit about TV.

There was a kind of rise in women police
officers in television.

You had Cagney and Lacey.

You had all the... Policewoman with
Angie Dickinson. Angie Dickinson,

absolutely. You had Chrissy Love.

You're under arrest, sugar.

Yeah, that's right.

Betty Thomas in Hill Street Blues. Yeah.
Yeah, so you've got all these tough

women cops which are starting to pop up.
So that's kind of interesting as well.

But I think that's cool that their
physicality is matched at the bar. Yes,

And then it kind of makes them, I guess,
sexual matches as well. So there's a

sort of physicality all the way
throughout the film for these two

Now, I worked on the Blu -ray release of
Ladies and Gentlemen of the Fabulous

Danes, and I actually pitched to Maren
Cantor to talk to her about that, and

was more than happy to. And it was a
really wonderful, beautiful interview.

She's such a wonderful, awesome artist
and an amazing talent.

But she did not have fun on this set,
and I actually wanted her to be involved

with this release, but she actually
declined because she just didn't have

time in this film.

So Carolyn has talked to me about it,
and you would have heard that, you know,

things such as the studio forcing them
to change her

character, but also even after she was
cast, she had to test for it, which is a

really horrible thing to have to happen
to you. Absolutely.

So, yeah, all that kind of stuff is
pretty foul.

So, yeah, and also just on top of that,
the studio kind of...

pushing for certain things and as much
as Carolyn Pfeiffer was always very

gracious and very happy at the studio
Greenlit the film and Greenlit the

just the idea of them coming in and
infiltrating and offering not even like

dramaturgical advice it was just like
insert this, insert this change this,

change that which is pretty cold but I
mean it's probably just very much common

practice in film but yeah I'll let
Carolyn Pfeiffer now talk about

Yeah, the issues that poor Maren Cantor
had and also what the film sort of

suffered with the studio influence and
interruption.

She was perfect casting.

But if you really watch it, you'll see
as the film goes on how her character

changes a little bit. That's because the
studio was forcing us to impose these

things on her.

It was awful for Alan and me and awful
for Maren to put a...

a young actor through that, to have
them, you know, a week or two weeks into

shoot and then have them test again,
it's just awful.

I mean, I can, in fairness to Begum, who
did greenlight the movie, and we're

grateful for that, but I think that it
was, he had a, I don't know what he

wanted. I think he wanted something that
was more, it was, you know, it was too,

the tone of it was not Hollywood.

I mean, we were, You know, we wanted
actors that looked natural. We wanted a

that was like a beat -up old cop who was
at the end of nothing to lose and

wanted, you know, instead of this, like,
great -looking, you know.

And I thought that Bob did a great job,
so we're not picking on him at all.

But that was not the original intention.

It was, you know, so I think...

They wanted a lot more makeup.

They wanted love story.

They wanted, and it really, it was
originally a little bit more mysterious

than that, more earthy than that.

And they were trying to turn it into
more of like a Hollywood movie. And we

the best we could to find the compromise
that we could all live with, you know?

So one thing I want to comment on is the
poster art, the campaign for the film.

Doesn't really sell the film, obviously,
and it sort of looks like it's kind of

in the war game.

You know what I mean? But before war
games.

It looks more like a poster for
something like Visiting Hours or

Oh, yeah, that's a great poster.

Yeah, I know, but this is like the shit
version.

But again, it's sort of selling the UFO
angle, though.

You know, it's this blurry kind of craft
with lights shining down on this

computer -like box, and it's like, ooh,
it's all very sci -fi.

And again, fainting to the left of what
this film really is. And as we see here,

on the credit here, the 1969
congressional ban, the 10 ,000 recorded,

taken from that 1979 FBI report into
cattle mutilations.

Wow. There's two eco -horror films
that's come to mind that sort of play on

idea of government infiltrating the sort
of the environment and

affecting the environment. And one is
Piranha from Joe Dante, which is very

smart. savvy satirical film written by
John Sayles, who I mentioned earlier, in

regards to the howling, which uses
cattle mutilation as a subplot. But also

Rattlers, which is a sort of unsung film
from 1976, which has the US government

experimenting and it sort of in turn
makes snakes, rattlers,

rattlesnakes, turn more aggressive and
also come out in mass.

So the government's always a shady thing
in a lot of these sort of eco -terror

films, of course.

Seldom is it a helpful institution.

But the other thing about this film, and
I think we sort of touched on it, and

Carolyn most definitely did, was the
studio, yeah, sort of not knowing what

do with it. And I think that's something
that's sort of very suggestive in the

fact that it was shot one year and
delayed in...

release to do with this film you know
and then and then you get a poster

like it's a sci -fi film when it's not
really a sci -fi film and yeah and

there's you know it's kind of a tv star
and and and yeah it's the kind of thing

they really needed to get behind um and
didn't seem to kind of know what to do

with it um it's almost like you wonder
if there was a regime change over those

over those years

I always don't understand why people get
so scared about films that utilize

multiple genres. It's like they can't
pigeonhole things. And I think that's a

cool thing. I think this film should
proudly, you know, be proud that it is

sort of wonderful magpie's nest of
different genres, genre tropes.

But yes, Paul, it's been a delight. And
thank you very much to Carolyn Pfeiffer

for her amazing input. And thank you,
Paul, for joining me on this commentary

for Endangered Species.

Thank you to Lee. Thank you to Carolyn.

And thank you very much. Hope you
enjoyed it.