Original subtitles

If serial killers could speak from beyond the grave, would they be willing

talk to us?

My name is Julie McDonald. I'm an investigative journalist.

And I'm Bobby Marqueso, an ex -cop and psychic medium.

And together, we aim to have a conversation with a serial killer.

The man had two faces.

He could be your best friend.

or your worst enemy.

If there is anybody in spirit down here, can you give us a sign?

Oh,

shit.

Few men have so deserved their place in the infamous and bloody history of

American serial killers as John Wayne Gacy.

Between 1972 and 1978, Gacy raped... Get off of me!

tortured and murdered at least 33 young men and buried most of their bodies

under the crawlspace in his suburban home.

John Wayne Gacy may have shared his name with one of cinema's greatest heroes,

yet in reality he was a cowardly, repressed homosexual who hid his demonic

urges under a veneer of domestic respectability.

Gacy enjoyed his status in the local community.

He liked nothing better than to dress as Pogo the Clown and entertain children.

But beneath all of the grease paint was the face of a distorted monster

and a serial killer who couldn't control his murderous urges.

We were on the trail of one of the most notorious and evil serial killers

America has ever known.

retracing the steps of Gacy's life in the hope of uncovering paranormal

of his existence after death.

John Wayne Gacy in many ways was the scariest of all men because on the

he was as normal as you or I, but beneath the surface he was a killer.

You can't be that much of a monster and not leave some kind of psychic clues

that somebody's going to pick up on eventually.

The investigation was centered around Chicago, America's third largest city,

one with a history of violence and murder pulsing through its veins.

We will investigate the Music Box, a crumbling picture house with a checkered

path.

Frankie's Roadhouse, a restaurant and former mob hangout situated on Archer

Avenue, the paranormal hotspot of Chicago.

Before holding a seance in the Des Plaines River at the exact...

spot where Gacy dumped five of his victims.

In life, he refused to divulge the secrets of his twisted, macabre and

past.

Would he be more lucid in death as we attempted to have a conversation with a

serial killer?

There are unanswered questions about Gacy.

To this day, eight of the victims of John Wayne Gacy are unidentified.

In December 1978, the Des Plaines Police Force began digging in the crawlspace

of 8213 Somerdale Drive in Norwood Park.

The house seemed a respectable all -American home in a good part of town.

But beneath the floorboards, the festering crawlspace told a very

story.

As the police excavated, they were confronted by a horrific and pervasive

stench of death.

The crawlspace at the home of John Wayne Gacy would eventually surrender 28

bodies.

Five more were found on the banks of the Des Plaines River.

Gacy was able to operate for such a long time because the victims were teenage

hustlers, semi -prostitutes with no close family ties.

Quoting John Wayne Gacy, worthless little queers and punks.

Gacy had what he called the rope trick and the handcuff trick.

He would tell them that he was a magician and for fun, let's see if you

out of this rope trap or let's see if you can get out of these handcuffs.

I can't get them off, no.

So they went along with the show and they allowed themselves to have their

wrists bound and it was at that point when Gacy did the terrible things that

did. Where had this unspeakable evil come from, and what had driven this man

become a monster?

The man they called the Killer Clown.

I wanted to start our investigation by speaking to someone who knew Gacy in his

youth.

Barry Buscelli was John Wayne Gacy's best friend.

As children, they were inseparable, kindred spirits.

I hoped his stories would give us some insight into the mind of this horrific

killer. Can you just tell us what it was like being a kid growing up in Chicago?

It was a time that will never be again.

When Johnny entered my life in August...

Of 1952, I knew that we were going to have a relationship like no other. I

you guys obviously had lots of adventures together as kids. Was there

specific one which made you feel differently about John?

This is now 1978.

He said to me, I'd like to see you again. I said, okay.

And I finally arrived at his house about 10 .30 in the morning.

This is John's house. John gave me his house. He approached me. He put his arms

around me.

He said to me, I want to show you something.

And he went in the bedroom and he got these handcuffs.

And he came out and he said, Barry, would you do me a favor? Would you put

handcuffs on?

That's when the fear hit me.

I said, Johnny, would you do me a favor?

Would you get me a glass of water, please?

So with that, he went to the kitchen.

And that was time to leave.

I grabbed my dad's keys, and I ran, and all of a sudden, I got to the car, and I

couldn't get the key in, and I was scared to death.

I got in the car, and I had the window down, and as I turned around, he had his

hand up. He said, I'm going to murder you.

Johnny didn't even know who Johnny was anymore.

Was Gacy so evil he was even prepared to kill his childhood friend?

We were already drifting into far darker territory than I had ever imagined.

When did you come here to visit the theater?

I'm starting to take on Gacy's persona.

Not a pleasant feeling.

The man who would grow up to be one of America's worst serial killers had an

unhappy childhood.

John Wayne Gacy's adolescence was blighted by ill health, and a heart

led to him being hospitalized on and off throughout his formative years.

He'd experimented with cross -dressing at a tender age.

His first marriage to Marlon Myers in 1964 only confused his sexuality

He had moved to Waterloo.

Marlon's father had set him up running a Kentucky Fried Chicken franchise, a

fast food franchise.

He got involved again in the local Jaycees chapter and was voted, I

of the top Jaycees in the state of Iowa, I think circa 1966 or so.

But the veneer of respectability was about to crack.

Gacy was a man who harbored perverse secrets.

He had a menacing appetite and dormant homosexual -type desires,

and these were things that he himself found repulsive.

John Wayne Gacy came to the attention of the police in Waterloo, Iowa, in 1967.

The Blackhawk County State's attorney began investigating him when the reports

filtered back that a 17 -year -old boy had been abducted, had his life

threatened, and when this came to the surface, this is when Gacy was

arrested and sentenced to a 10 -year term in the Anamosa Penitentiary.

While Gacy was in prison working as the head cook, back home in Chicago, his

father fell ill.

When the father died, it left a terrible scar, one that was never completely

healed, and Gacy's life just spiraled right out of control.

Gacy was released into the community after only 18 months and quickly moved

to Chicago to live with his mother.

Gacy began to re -establish himself as a pillar of the community.

But there was a darker side to Gacy as he began to stalk the gay scene of

Chicago, watching young boys dabbling in stag films and toying with the idea of

murder.

The first location I wanted us to investigate in our search for the...

John Wayne Gacy was nestled in the midst of Chicago's largest gay district, an

area Gacy had prowled in the early 70s.

Bobby, the reason this part of the street is a particular focus for the

paranormal side of our investigation for John Wayne Gacy is because of the music

box. It was a porn cinema in the 1970s, so I'm thinking when he was a...

Bachelor again. Could this have been a place that he came to further

If we had a great chance of communicating with him, this would be

place where he would not only feel comfortable coming in life, but maybe

feel just as comfortable coming back to us in death.

Originally opened in 1929, the old Picture Palace has had a vivid and

past.

Over the years, its ornate auditorium has seen Indian cinema, grisly

exploitation films, and at one point in the 70s, gay porn.

To assist us in our investigation, I'd arranged for the Indiana Gold Trackers

come along.

Their leader is Mike McDowell.

Tell me a little bit about what you guys do.

Well, basically we go out to various haunted locations and investigate for

paranormal activity.

Do you think that this would be a good...

possible location where John Wayne Gacy would be? Oh, sure, sure. We believe

that this was a location that he frequented, so this would probably be as

place as any to try and track down John.

As night fell at the music box, we prepared for our first paranormal

investigation of John Wayne Gacy.

Bobby and I began in the theater's auditorium.

What I'm getting is...

It's all residual stuff. I can see back in the day the things that took place

here and the people gathered.

It's dark.

The porn's playing up on the screen. I don't even want to tell you the sexual

behavior that took place here, but that's going through my head as well.

not a pleasant feeling.

I feel more back in this area.

If Gacy came here, this is where he would have said it.

How are you able to tell me that, Bobby?

Hang on, hang on.

There's different areas where he would have sat at.

What is it that's leading you to these specific places? I'm putting on a John

Wayne Gacy psychic suit.

He sat here with somebody.

I've got somebody to my left -hand side that he knows.

Darker hair, long sideburns, he's young.

And they would come here, and of course Gacy is looking at the film and planning

on...

That's what I'm going to do. That's what we're going to do.

What I want to get to is more of the darker side of Gacy when he was here.

So I think we're drawing in some energy as we're talking about that.

I'd really like to start, see if we can't get him to come through.

Bobby wanted to hold an EVP session with the Indiana Ghost Trackers.

EVP stands for Electronic Voice Phenomena and is a well -known method of

communication.

Paranormal investigators believe that machines pick up sounds undetected by

human ear that might be attributed to ghosts or spirits.

Recording here, this is the Music Box Theater. If this is John,

please know that we're here to talk to you and communicate with you.

John, when did you come here to visit this theater?

Did anyone come with you to the theater?

Did you meet any nice young boys here? I'm starting to get tingles in the back

of my head now.

John, when you were a child, for hoarding underwear in your playhouse, in

crawl space, that your mother would make you wear the women's underwear to

school. Is that true?

When the ghost trackers later reviewed the tapes, they were able to pick up

sounded like an EVP. Could this electronic distortion be a voice from

They

think

this voice says...

Were you more excited by power that you had over

them or the sexual fantasies?

Sexual fantasies.

Power, though, being a layer.

The ghost trackers believed that they'd received another response to this

question. Were you more excited by...

Power that you had over them or the sexual fantasies?

Sexual fantasies.

Power, though, being a layer.

I'm not sure, but they think that this voice could be saying the word equal.

Whilst Bobby and the ghost trackers were attempting to converse with Gacy in the

theater, I accompanied sensitive Renee into the men's toilet.

John Wayne Gacy, if you're here, I understand that you stalked men

and followed them into this bathroom.

Why did you do that?

Are there any victims of John's in here?

What is it that you think you're feeling, Renee?

A little bit of a shift, an increase in pressure.

I felt all the hair go up in my arms, all the side of my body.

I'm sensing, Renee, that you're a little bit uncomfortable in that corner over

there. Can you just explain to me why it is that you don't want to stand right

over by the wall?

There was a violation that occurred in this corner.

At first I thought that perhaps the person was facing the wall here.

and was violated, and then was then turned and pushed.

A man with a short hair, a dog a little bit shorter than me, was the one that

was being pushed up against the wall, both forwards and backwards.

Renee clearly had some brutal images flashing through her mind. I wanted to

if Bobby could feel the same violent emotions that she'd been picking up.

Probably some of the areas that you were feeling immediately are this corner.

Yeah. And then, this is a, again, I'm being pushed over here. This is a poor

thing. So what part of you?

Just everywhere.

The body, you know, and then I get hit.

And then I do see blood. Yeah, I do see blood.

So given that you both feel that.

certain violent things have happened in here. Anything related to John Wayne

Gacy that you sense or that you sense, Rene? These particular feelings, not

Wayne Gacy.

Has he come through in spirit at all?

I think he was there in the theater when we were talking. I think he started

getting worked up a little bit anger -wise. When these guys were asking

questions, specifically, I was starting getting answers. We're getting deeper

into that dark heart that he had.

So Bobby and I just got back from the music box.

First of all, when we went into the theater, Bobby talked about where John

Gacy had sat.

My thoughts were that a man like John Wayne Gacy, knowing how he behaved, it

obvious that he was just at the back.

And then we went into the toilet.

The toilet's in a porn theatre.

I suppose anybody might expect rationally that things have gone on in

surprise, surprise, that's exactly what the paranormal group came up with.

Bobby and the lady from the paranormal group were separated, and when he came

in, he sensed the same situation.

So I suppose you might be able to take something from that. But I think just

being there factually and rationally, you could have picked those things up.

In the early 70s, Gacy was busy juggling his Jekyll and Hyde lifestyle, the

upstanding community man and the dangerous nocturnal prowler.

Divorced while in prison, he remarried in 1971 and moved into Norwood Park, a

conservative and family -orientated community.

He launched a new business venture as a building contractor and, to all around

him, he successfully conjured a facade of respectability.

To me, it's almost like John Wayne Gacy was a multiple personality.

The successful contractor, the friendly neighbor, the community organizer.

On the other hand, he's this clandestine killer whose murderous compulsions are

starting to overpower him.

Late at night, past midnight, he would drive down to...

the near north side of Chicago, north of downtown, to Washington Park, which

is better known in Chicago as Bug House Square.

Gacy would cruise this area in his automobile, driving around the park,

for pickups.

And it is believed that that's where the very first victims that he solicited

and later murdered had come from.

I wanted to take Bobby to Bug House Square to see if he could connect with

the stalker.

So Bobby, we've left downtown and we've come slightly further out of the city

and I wanted to bring you here specifically to this square because it

quite a lot of significance for John Wayne Gacy. Yeah, I feel that. When we

started driving up, it's definitely, this is more Gacy related.

I don't know if he took a victim from here.

Or left a victim here. What I'm picking up is that the victim isn't dead or

didn't die.

He did what he did. This person was abused physically and then

left here.

I feel alive. I feel like I'm waking up here.

You know what I mean? Or like I'm coming from unconsciousness into

consciousness, but it's still all just...

You know, and I feel incredibly nauseous, like I want to throw up, and I

internally damaged.

You know what I mean?

Bobby, what you've just described to me, that whole scenario of victims being

left and waking up, maybe realizing that something terrifying has happened to

them, is a scenario that happened to a victim of John Wayne Gacy just a few

miles from here.

In early 1978, John Wayne Gacy picked up a 27 -year -old man named Jeffrey

Ringel.

Ringel was chloroformed and subjected to a night of unrelenting torture.

Gacy repeatedly raped his victim before abandoning him in the early hours of the

morning in Chicago's Lincoln Park.

I wanted to see if Bobby could get a stronger connection with the feelings

experienced in Fughouse Square, at the actual location where Ringel was dumped.

The feelings are no different. It's the same disorientation. We described it

almost like I have to vomit. In fact, I feel that I did.

As I'm waking up, number one, it's still very cloudy. I have this really massive

headache.

And I'm looking at buildings, and I see the statue in front of me.

Could it be that the reason you're seeing a distorted picture is because

pictures you're seeing are that of the victim that we know that was left here?

The situation I'm seeing isn't coming directly from the victim. It's more of a

residual type of a thing. And how do you feel about drawing that sort of very

negative, very dark energy through you?

Vulnerable. I'm going to feel that disoriented and that sick and affected

things that he did to his victims.

It makes me feel vulnerable, scared, and I just have to really be careful,

otherwise he could completely take over.

If Bobby felt vulnerable, where did that leave me?

You have to be very, very cautious. Anything can happen.

Our journey was sliding deeper into darkness.

So what the hell was that?

But I wasn't prepared for what was to come.

John Wayne Gacy was one of the most notorious and sinister serial killers

America has ever known.

Between 1972 and 1978, he is known to have killed 33 young men.

Some believe he killed many more.

By day, Gacy was a successful building contractor and part -time clown called

Pogo, entertaining at children's parties across Chicago.

By night, he forced a succession of young boys to his own chamber of

would rape and torture them before brutally murdering them, often

them with their own underwear.

Finally, he would drag them through the house and bury them in the crawlspace.

He went about his killing spree with impunity. He did not seem to fear the

consequences.

and when people would ask him in the neighborhood what was that odor

from his house, he would give excuses like it was some sort of plumbing

in the community.

Neighbors noticed a proliferation of holes being dug around his property, but

he was a contractor, their curiosity never became suspicion.

One man whose suspicions were aroused was Bill Dorsch, a former policeman who

now a private detective.

He recalls seeing the killer digging in the dead of night at his mother's

apartment where Gacy had the maintenance contract.

I was working nights, which meant I usually got off around 2 o 'clock in the

morning and I would be coming home.

And I see John Gacy just walking just right in front of me, crossing the

walking towards the building.

And I stopped and I said, John, it's 3 o 'clock in the morning. What the heck

are you doing out here now?

Because he had the shovel and he says.

You know, Bill, there's just not enough hours in a day. You've got to get it

done when you can. But it wasn't until 1978 when they started digging up bodies

there that you say, you know, wait a minute, maybe there's something to this.

Following Dorsch's lead, the Chicago police dug up the grounds at Gacy's

mother's apartment.

The search failed to locate any more bodies, although Bill Dorsch is still

convinced that they're there.

The one place that we know for sure that Gacy dumped his victims, apart from the

crawlspace at his home, is the Des Plaines River.

The last victim was thrown from the bridge into the water below.

Archer Avenue runs along the banks of the Des Plaines and is known to be the

paranormal hotspot of the Chicago area.

At the epicentre of the activity is Frankie's Roadhouse, a mobster hangout

in the 1920s.

and it was here that I wanted to continue our investigation.

Looks great.

Yeah, this is Frankie's Roadhouse. I brought you here for two reasons.

First of all, the folklore of Chicago says that it's one of the most haunted

locations, and the strip that we're on here is thought of as also being

It's seriously haunted.

But as far as John Wayne Gacy is concerned, it's believed that he came to

roadhouse when he was dumping bodies in the river. For me, I think this place is

really going to deliver.

Definitely. I mean, with the things that I'm already sensing, it has great

potential to become quite sinister, quite dark tonight. So I would

that. Let's get in there.

Frankie's Roadhouse is spread over four floors.

The basement, the ground floor, first floor and attic area.

The ground floor is home to the restaurant and bar and reputedly once

office of notorious Chicago gangster Al Capone.

The first floor also has a colourful path.

For many years its bedrooms were used as a brothel for mobsters who gambled in

the bar below.

But the basement's history is perhaps the darkest of stories of torture and

death.

So Robert, Frankie's Roadhouse is obviously your place, but it's been many

different things throughout history. Just tell us a little bit about that.

the building was built around 1920.

a speakeasy as in a sense of illegal gambling and liquor. The second floor

brothel. And what about the significance for John Wayne Gacy? And that's a

particular interest there. Yeah, John Wayne Gacy used to visit this place when

it was a biker's bar.

And because the river is so close where he would dump the bodies and come over

and have a drink. And, you know, I guess melt his sorrows in his glass of beer,

you know. So tell me about some of the paranormal.

A lot of people say they get a lot of strong feelings downstairs, you know, as

in killing, people being beaten up. We were told that a little boy was killed

here because he accidentally saw something.

So there's a lot of things that can happen here.

With all the paranormal experiences that have been alleged to go on in this

building, would you ever spend the night here by yourself?

I've done it to 3 o 'clock in the morning once and was very scared.

And, no, I wouldn't do it again.

If Robert's stories were to be believed, Frankie's Roadhouse was host to a

number of malevolent spirits.

But could any of these spirits be John Wayne Gacy?

Tonight I wanted substantial evidence that paranormal activity exists.

To assist us in our investigation, I called on the help of Ursula Bielski, a

local historian and veteran paranormal researcher.

Frankie's Roadhouse is one of the most haunted places in the Chicago area.

I think it's very possible that John Wayne Gacy is still with us and he is

probably exactly the way he was in life and probably not a very nice guy.

I'd also invited Ed Shanahan to join us, a local psychic and expert in calling

forward Dark Master.

I think John Wayne Gacy's spirit would be a controlling one where it would try

to take over.

Even maybe me doing what I'm doing, okay? Because I've channeled it in the

And just the thought of it, it brings up an anger inside of me.

The sun plunged from the Illinois sky, taking the security of daylight with it.

As we prepared for our investigation, I was nervous about the night ahead.

Obviously a focus for us, Bobby, is John Wayne Gacy and whether his spirit will

come through here.

Is there anything that we have to be aware of when we're dealing with his

if it does show itself?

Some of the things I would expect would be how he and what he did to his

victims. Some of the chloroform, you might feel nauseous, dizzy, headaches,

choking, feel like you can't breathe.

For me, I'm probably more vulnerable than you are just with his homosexual

tendency. If he has a chance to mess with me, he's going to.

You have to be very, very cautious.

Anything can happen. We are digging into some of the depths of darkness that

have taken place not only here in this building, but in John Wayne Gacy's mind.

Our investigation was to begin in the basement of Frankie's, a location

in shadows and steeped in darkness, and a place that would surely be alluring to

an evil spirit like John Wayne Gacy.

Just explain to me what you're doing just now with the computer and the

I'm sitting.

some of the candles, so that this camera can record, hopefully, the activity of

some of this from Adam. We're going to stay here for a few minutes, see if we

can't invoke him and invoke his spirit to come through.

So I'm talking to the little boy that's hopefully here with us. And if this is

Adam, I'm sensing he's right over here.

There's something here.

I heard something.

I'm starting to get those cold chills.

It just started happening. It's washing over me.

Your temperature's pretty stable there, Bob. He's over here.

Can you just say... He's moving all over the place. He's moving all over the

place. Okay, so we're at 55 there, having been at...

Adam, I just need you to continue to communicate with us.

Okay. Ice machine just kicked on. It scared me to death.

Yeah, but the ice machine was switched off earlier.

He turned it off. Yeah, is it plugged in again?

I got a flashlight.

It's plugged back in.

We saw him physically unplug this earlier when we were down here.

Is that possible, Bobby?

Anything's possible in it.

Whilst we were in the basement, Ed and Ursula were upstairs investigating the

attic space.

This area is up here.

It's more or less a don't want you up here type of feeling.

I hate to say this, but I'm picking up a feeling tonight ain't going to be a

good night for us.

Ooh, I don't like this room.

Yeah? Do you want to go in there?

This was active.

And there's somebody in here.

And he's just standing there.

There's a knock right over here.

There's at least five to six spirits that are down here.

There, back there in that corner.

Hello?

Hello?

Are you hearing that?

That bang? There's a bang.

It's like behind this wall.

Okay.

That's not what I heard.

It sounded like... What

the

hell was that?

I have no idea.

That was a loud bang.

Are you sensing something here, Bobby?

Well, yeah, all over this area.

In fact, he's standing right over there, right in the back.

Did you hear that? Yes, I did.

Why are they chasing us around? They're having fun with us. They're winding us

up.

So they're not threatened by us being here.

This is like fun time, Frankie. This is fun time.

I'm just recording as Ed talks to see if there's anyone here that's responding

to him.

It is cold right here.

I've got chills running through me like crazy.

If there's someone here with us, we would like to talk to you and find out

you are and why you're here.

I'm right in this area.

Like a caged cat.

And if you've been watching, it's like something's pressing down.

I don't know if it's the stress or what I'm feeling.

The spirits want to be known, okay?

Make another noise for us.

Starting to get cold and chills.

Still hearing thumps.

If there is anybody in spirit down here, can you give us a sign?

Where did that come from? Right, just right over here.

Sometimes you'll be able to hear... An EVP is an electronic voice phenomenon

where they're going to come through either the cam...

That sounded like a box over here, didn't it?

Oh, Christ!

Jesus Christ!

That's either one active freezer or it's one incredibly active spirit.

Your opinion, please.

Spirit.

It's an act of spirit. They're messing with things. They just shook the

Events in the basement had shaken us, but we needed confirmation that the

hadn't turned the machine back on.

Bobby and I just a few minutes ago experienced a lot of noise coming from

Didn't you turn this off, though? We were down here earlier, and you turned

off.

This is a gnarled sound right now. That means it's on, but it shouldn't be on.

So are you saying that the ice machine turned itself back on? Exactly.

So that was quite an experience down there, wasn't it? It was amazing.

There was so much activity there. One of the focuses that we had in coming here

was that we know that John Wayne Gacy visited this place when it was a biker

bar, different than it is now.

Was any of that energy that we experienced anything to do with him?

Gacy may have very well come here, and I can certainly see that and resonate

with that in my mind. But here's the thing also that I know, is that this

is active with mobsters.

He's not welcome here. Because we know how not only the mob, but people in

prison, how they feel about pedophiles and people who commit the type of

horrific crimes that John Wayne Gacy committed.

They would have killed him on the spot.

I think Frankie's roadhouse was absolutely fascinating, all the mob

associations. The fact that John Wayne Gacy went there kind of got lost in all

of that because there was so much history.

It was very difficult to separate the fact that it was so interesting with

anything that might have appeared paranormal.

It's going to be very difficult for me to make up my mind on that experience.

The following morning, Bobby had something he wanted me to see that he'd

on the camera of his laptop in Frankie's basement.

There's two things that happen here. One is just a quick orb blink up at the top

of the screen here, and then immediately after, watch what happens.

Oh, yeah.

It materializes from there, moves across the screen. There's no way for me to

explain that.

That's very interesting. I don't know what we would necessarily call that, but

it certainly shows itself, doesn't it?

I mean, what do you think that that is?

I have to go with an entity of some sort.

Our search into the life and crimes of John Wayne Gacy had already led us to

banks of the Des Plaines River. But now the final stage of our journey was to be

on the river at a seance where he dumped his final victim.

Can you give us any kind of a sign that you are here? Show yourself if you dare.

Listen, Gacy, don't get me angry.

Gacy, speak.

God, I can feel his rage!

We were approaching the conclusion of our quest to track down the spirit of

notorious serial killer John Wayne Gacy.

Our journey had brought us to the banks of the Des Plaines River.

A lot of supernatural energy, psychic energy, would be found along the banks

the Des Plaines.

And ironically, this is where John Wayne Gacy dropped the last of his bodies

when he ran out of crawl space room at his home on the northwest side.

Gacy thought he would never be caught and felt that this river was the key to

his survival and his freedom. And it was here that we were going to stage a

seance in our final bid to get some answers from beyond the grave.

We waited on the banks of the Des Plaines River for night to fall.

So Bobby, I've brought you to this rather bleak spot at the side of the Des

Plaines River. I've organised for a boat to come to take us towards.

The I -55 bridge where he dumped the bodies with hope that there might be

emotion, enough energy there that he might come through to it. I would

anticipate in tonight's dance probably picking up a lot of emotion from the

victims, but also the turmoil and emotion that was taking place inside of

Wayne Gacy at the time that he dumped the body.

I'd invited the Indiana Ghost Trackers to join us in the seance, which would be

led by local psychic Grant Wiley.

The boat headed upriver, our destination, the dark, murky waters

bridge where Gacy's murderous spree had ended.

It was from this bridge that Gacy discarded the body of his final victim,

-year -old Robert Peace.

Is there anything that we really need to know going into the seance? Is there

anything I need to be aware of when I'm trying to divide between facts and

fiction? With John Wayne Gacy being the horrible figure that he was...

could affect our psyche in so many different ways.

The flashing images of himself, his victims, some of the anger. Since I've

gotten in touch with Gacy throughout our journey, I would look for those types

of feelings to come through as well. They're not pleasant. They're definitely

negative. They're dark. They can affect us, touch us, and I would anticipate

that anything like that could certainly happen tonight.

Feel yourself dropping down into a deeper state of consciousness.

Deeper and deeper.

Does anybody see any person yet?

He's standing in blue jeans and a belt and topless.

No shirt.

Do you know his name?

You've given me a name, Matthew.

Ask Matthew what he has to say.

He keeps wanting to know why he was a victim, why he did what he did.

He keeps saying that he hit me.

When he was thrown into the river, he was still like, as I feel myself going

into the river, it just feels like the thinking feeling is going down, and the

next thing, he's crossed over.

Be careful with some of these spirits, for some of them seek vengeance, and I

don't blame them.

Well, in case he speaks, he says that there are more victims, more than the

in the river, more than the ones in the house.

There were some unsolved murders, people that were missing.

He's angry.

All I hear is anger.

Saying, why are you doing this? Why are you bothering me?

God, I can feel his rage!

Listen, Gacy, don't get me angry.

Go ahead. You want to show yourself?

Yeah, go ahead.

We don't like that.

Show yourself if you dare.

What was that?

One last time, John, before we close this circle.

Use the energy that's in this room, John, to manifest yourself.

I'm getting a foul smell.

Yeah.

What does it smell like?

A combination of ammonia and BO.

Are we talking something boat -river related?

Now, I never heard of ammoniated BO before.

Could the smell have been gaseous?

If a spirit did have a pundit odor, it seemed entirely possible it could be

the stench of death and decay in his wake. But in the industrial landscape of

the Des Plaines River, it could simply have been factory smells.

But the psychics and sensitives felt sure that something else was with us on

boat. Gacy expressed quite a bit of anger, a little bit of confusion also.

He had no remorse. He felt that he had every right to do everything that he

It was more of a hostile attitude or an uncooperative attitude.

Our investigation had come to an end, but although we could leave Chicago, it

seems the city would never be free of Gacy's horrific legacy.

He liked being the center of the community in life and lurking in the

He probably enjoyed the attention in death.

Chicago can never move on, and neither will John Wayne Gacy.