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In this episode of American Greed, Carl
Carlson considers himself a country
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gentleman. I think he strived to be the
center of attention.
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00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:13,760
He runs a sprawling farm. He raises
Belgian draft horses. My father liked to
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00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:15,360
keep them, and the bigger the better.
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And he does it all on a factory worker's
salary.
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How? I mean, the whole thing just makes
no sense.
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The answer may lie in the so -called
accidents that keep happening.
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911, what's the location of your
emergency?
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Does anybody need an ambulance?
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Accidents that claim the lives of his
son and wife.
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She's in there and she's stuck and she's
going to die. I started screaming and I
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couldn't even stop.
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Accidents that always lead to a hefty
insurance payoff.
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Between the cars, the vacations, the
duck farm, I really wondered.
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Where he was coming up with the money.
Will the authorities ever confirm what
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his terrified children know to be true?
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Tonight, the secrets of a man who
sacrifices his loved ones for money.
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human being is expendable for a check.
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As told by the family members who made
it out alive.
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That man doesn't deserve to live.
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Dad, he does not deserve to live.
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It's 2008 in Berwick, New York, a rural
town nestled in the Finger Lakes region
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of the state.
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In the rolling fields between Seneca and
Cayuga Lakes sits the farm of Carl
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Carlson.
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Carlson is a factory worker, but the
farm is his true passion. He raises
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draft horses.
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Our farm was a hobby farm. We usually
had between 25 and 30 horses on the
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The horses can weigh up to 2 ,000 pounds
and cost up to $10 ,000 each.
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The impressive horses fit right in with
Carl's self -image.
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He's actually very impressed with
himself.
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I think he had the tendency to be a
little bit of a storyteller and a
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in his own mind. Anything he could do to
draw attention to himself.
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Michael Carlson is Carl's older brother.
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It's all about him.
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And money and his success, his image,
his prestige.
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Carlson manages the farm on his own with
occasional help from his four children.
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Three are from his previous marriage.
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Aaron, the firstborn, son Levi, and
Katie, the youngest.
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When times were good with Dad, they were
really good.
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So he and I spent an awful lot of time
going across the hayfields on
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tractors or, you know.
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plowing the snow in the winter, and so
there was a lot of good memories that I
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have associated with stuff like that.
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Despite his bucolic life, Carlson is
sometimes at odds with his son Levi.
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Levi, seen here with his high school
sweetheart Cassie, doesn't fit in to
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idealized view of his family.
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Levi was into heavy metal. He hated
country western, but Carl loved country
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western.
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Carl was into country western music,
square dancing.
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He very much considered himself a
country gentleman.
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Levi, now 23, moves out of his father's
home at age 16.
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He hopped for a bit. He would go stay
with friends.
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And then he, you know, met and fell in
love with Cassie. He was different. And
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he seemed very comfortable with being
different.
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I remember the first time I saw him, he
was dressed in his goth gear and his
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hair was blue. I found that, like, very
interesting.
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Shortly after she graduates high school,
Cassie and Levi marry.
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Our daughter was born about six weeks
after we got married.
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She was the best thing to ever happen to
him.
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He loved her so much.
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The two eventually have two daughters,
but the magic doesn't last.
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They divorce after a few years of
marriage, but remain on good terms for
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kid's sake.
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And there was always lots of kisses and
lots of playing, and he was very active
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with them.
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They were his whole world.
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Levi and his father Carl don't have much
contact, but still see each other a few
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times a year.
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On this day, November 20, 2008, Carl
calls his son and asks if he can help
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up his old farm truck.
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Levi has a knack for working with cars.
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It was a big pickup truck, like one of
those F -250s, something like that. Big
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old farm truck.
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The truck is a couple of decades old,
but it's a workhorse.
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Carlson uses it around the farm often.
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Carlson says the truck needs repairs on
its brakes.
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He gives Levi 50 bucks for the job.
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Levi was very well known for being able
to help where he could.
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When it came to helping his father with
things, the way a lot of times that he
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saw it was if he was helping, then the
job was getting done.
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When Levi arrives at the farm, the truck
is already jacked up and ready for
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repairs. The plan is for Levi to do the
work while Carl and his wife Cindy,
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Levi's stepmother, attend the funeral of
a relative.
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As Cindy waits in their car, Carl speaks
to Levi in the barn.
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Then he joins her.
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And they drive off.
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That was about noontime. Left with his
wife to go to a funeral in Pan Yan.
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Went to a reception after the funeral at
the Moose Club. Acted like he always
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acted. Laughed and joked because he
always did.
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When Carl and his wife Cindy return from
the funeral, they're stunned at what
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they find in the barn.
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Levi is pinned underneath the truck.
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Came home at about 3 .50 p .m.,
discovered his son, and screamed out for
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wife to call 911.
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911, what's the location of your
emergency?
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Yes, I live it.
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Levi is dead.
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So I was driving to my boyfriend's house
at the time, and halfway there I got a
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phone call from my grandpa.
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And his exact words were,
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Levi's gone.
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While Carl is at the funeral,
authorities say the thin, wobbly
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that props up the truck falls over.
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You know, it sounded like a tragic
accident for everything that was
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me, that the jack slipped is what I was
told.
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The jack slipped and the truck came down
on him.
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Cassie is so stunned she can't even tell
her kids what happened.
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It was awful.
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It was absolutely awful.
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I couldn't even gather myself up enough
to be the one to tell my children my
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mother told them.
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Carl Carlson says he thinks he's cursed.
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This is the second time a close family
member of his has died in a tragic
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accident. That was our life growing up.
One bad incident after
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another.
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Carl Carlson and his family's accidents
is a story that spans several decades
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and thousands of miles.
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In the early 1980s, Carlson is a cadet
in the Air Force.
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While stationed in North Dakota, working
with nuclear missiles, Carlson is drawn
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to the wife of a fellow cadet, Christina
Alexander.
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Despite her marriage, Carl sweeps
Christina off her feet.
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Carl and Christina have this whirlwind.
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when they met on the Air Force Base in
North Dakota.
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Michael Carlson is two years older than
his brother.
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The first time we met her is when they
came home.
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We knew nothing about her other than he
called my father and said, I'm going to
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be a dad, and oh, by the way, I'm
married. And when they got out of the
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he came home with her.
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Christina and Carl Carlson settled in
central New York, close to where Carl
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up.
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Carlson's family is impressed with his
new wife.
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She's an amazing young lady.
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Great kid.
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The sun was always shining in her world.
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Just always had a smile on her face.
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The couple eventually have three young
children, Aaron, Levi, and Katie.
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Carl works at the local stone quarry,
but money is tight.
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We were all in the same mode in life.
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Young kids ourselves, newly married.
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I don't think any one of us had a nickel
to rub between. You know, it's just we
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were all trying to survive.
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Christina's family lives out west in
central California in the foothills of
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Sierra Nevada Mountains.
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Her father owns a sheet metal business.
He offers his new son -in -law an
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opportunity. You know, I told him, look,
if you ever need a job, come on out to
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California and you work with me.
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In the late 80s, Christina and Carl take
him up on the offer and relocate to her
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hometown of Murphys, California.
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Christina's sister, Colette, says Carl
is charming.
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He can be very friendly. He can be very
funny.
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So my first impression with him was that
he had a great sense of humor and that
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he made me laugh a lot.
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Christina's father finds a home for the
young family.
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I had a house for them that I rented up
above.
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Murphy's on the highway or just off the
highway.
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So I thought it might be good for them,
you know, save a little bit of money
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that they could live in that house for
free. But Carl doesn't like being under
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his father -in -law's thumb.
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He eventually finds his own home deep in
the woods.
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Pretty much like an old miner's shack.
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Carl's mother -in -law is appalled.
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And when I got there and saw the state
of that house, that wasn't a house, it
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was a shack.
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Had water from the creek kind of thing.
It was just all time living.
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The status of the home was, it was a
downgrade. So I was a little
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when she told me they were moving. It
was in not the greatest of condition.
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What the family doesn't know is that the
new home would become the site of their
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first great tragedy.
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Next on American Greed.
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I got a phone call from my dad, and he
simply told me there was a fire out at
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your sister's house, and your sister
didn't get out.
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Situated in the foothills of the Sierra
Nevadas, Murphy's, California, is where
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the 49ers hunted for gold.
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00:11:11,210 --> 00:11:14,750
For Christina and Colette, it was a
great place to grow up.
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So we grew up nowhere near a city, very
much outdoors.
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For Christina Carlson, the opportunity
to raise her own kids in this
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is too good to pass up.
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And then when I got the phone call that
they were moving to California, I was so
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ecstatic. because now I knew I could be
closer to her.
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The kids recall good times at the cabin.
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My mom used to take us on walks all the
time, and we would collect leaves or
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acorns or whatever and press them into
little books.
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We would go downtown Murphy's and go to
the candy shop or the ice cream shop.
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We would play the hokey pokey on the
record machine. She'd get out the record
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and put it on, and we'd stand in the
living room.
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dancing to the hokey pokey.
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But shortly after their arrival,
Christina's family notices that all is
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right with her marriage to Carl.
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00:12:09,940 --> 00:12:16,420
So he controlled my sister mentally
because he would tell her that she was
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chubby. He knew that because she was so
sensitive about her weight that he could
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destroy her self -esteem.
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00:12:23,540 --> 00:12:29,340
Carl had never allowed Chris to have any
of the holidays with me.
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Or go shopping with me unless he was
there.
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One year for her birthday, I bought her,
back in the day they had these things
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called glamour shots.
197
00:12:41,020 --> 00:12:44,200
And so you would go to the glamour shot
and they would do your makeup and your
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00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,040
hair and make you feel like a princess.
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00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:51,260
So we get back to my house and we walked
in the door and he looked at her and he
200
00:12:51,260 --> 00:12:54,880
said, you look like a whore, go take
your makeup off.
201
00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,120
And she just ran down the hall crying.
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The Carlson's cabin is located about
five miles outside of downtown Murphys.
203
00:13:02,660 --> 00:13:07,340
To get to the home, one must drive down
a long, winding road through the
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00:13:07,340 --> 00:13:11,900
mountains. They had one car, so he would
take the car.
205
00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:16,340
My sister and the kids were stranded out
at this house, and it's not walkable,
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00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,660
so she was stuck out there completely by
herself.
207
00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,700
Collette says that Carl also physically
abuses her sister.
208
00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:25,500
She called me up one time and...
209
00:13:26,060 --> 00:13:31,580
She said he knocked her so hard she flew
all the way across the room. And I
210
00:13:31,580 --> 00:13:33,580
said, you need to get out.
211
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,140
Like, you have got to get out of here
because it's getting worse.
212
00:13:37,820 --> 00:13:41,960
And she said, Colette, I don't want to
be divorced twice. And how am I going to
213
00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:42,960
take care of my kids?
214
00:13:43,060 --> 00:13:45,740
The sisters keep their conversations to
themselves.
215
00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:51,020
I knew I couldn't react because if I had
said anything, he'd have taken it out
216
00:13:51,020 --> 00:13:52,020
on my sister.
217
00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:57,160
In 1990, Christina's family goes to her
mother's house outside Sacramento for
218
00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,700
Christmas. But Arlene says the holiday
visit is odd.
219
00:14:01,060 --> 00:14:05,460
Even though the drive is just an hour
and a half long, Christina and her
220
00:14:05,460 --> 00:14:07,260
have never made the trip before.
221
00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:14,360
On Christmas Eve, they came down for the
very first time and all the time that
222
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,200
Chris lived there in Murphy's.
223
00:14:17,140 --> 00:14:18,900
And I was puzzled by it.
224
00:14:20,820 --> 00:14:23,470
I thought, Something is not right.
225
00:14:24,330 --> 00:14:29,550
She says Carl's demeanor is pleasant
during the visit, but something is off,
226
00:14:29,550 --> 00:14:33,170
she can't put her finger on it. And I
knew something was going wrong, but I
227
00:14:33,170 --> 00:14:34,270
didn't know what it was.
228
00:14:35,750 --> 00:14:37,910
Christmas was the last time I saw her.
229
00:14:39,090 --> 00:14:44,370
One week later, on New Year's Day in
1991, Christina Carlson and her family
230
00:14:44,370 --> 00:14:46,970
back home at their cabin outside
Murphys, California.
231
00:14:48,190 --> 00:14:51,170
The family is enjoying a lazy New Year's
Day.
232
00:14:51,930 --> 00:14:56,450
Despite being just six years of age at
the time, oldest daughter Erin remembers
233
00:14:56,450 --> 00:14:57,850
the day vividly.
234
00:14:58,290 --> 00:15:03,330
So I remember that we were playing.
235
00:15:03,550 --> 00:15:07,250
My dad rounded the three of us up. He
took us out to the yard.
236
00:15:07,510 --> 00:15:14,410
He had our Christmas tree out in the
gravel driveway, and he said he wanted
237
00:15:14,410 --> 00:15:19,670
to see how quick a house could burn. So
he put some fuel over it and lit it up,
238
00:15:19,670 --> 00:15:21,130
and we just kind of stood there and
watched it.
239
00:15:21,710 --> 00:15:25,810
Erin says that she and her two siblings
go back into the cabin to take their
240
00:15:25,810 --> 00:15:26,890
afternoon naps.
241
00:15:27,590 --> 00:15:32,650
Erin shares a room with little sister
Katie. While lying in bed, she recalls
242
00:15:32,650 --> 00:15:33,990
hearing her mother yelling.
243
00:15:35,310 --> 00:15:40,370
So I woke up and I went over to our
bedroom door and it had been left ajar
244
00:15:40,370 --> 00:15:44,310
could see that there was fire on the
other side of the door.
245
00:15:44,570 --> 00:15:46,530
The tiny cabin is on fire.
246
00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:51,240
Erin wakes up her little sister Katie
and runs toward the bedroom window, but
247
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,360
discovers that it's blocked by a
dresser.
248
00:15:53,620 --> 00:15:56,520
She says the dresser usually sits in the
closet.
249
00:15:56,900 --> 00:16:01,660
A dresser had been placed in front of
the window, one of the windows in our
250
00:16:01,660 --> 00:16:07,000
room, and I tried to push it out of the
way, and I was too young to make it
251
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:08,400
move, but I gave it a go.
252
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,640
And shortly after that, my father
actually broke through the window and
253
00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:12,640
the dresser out of the way.
254
00:16:13,020 --> 00:16:15,780
Carl Carlson pulls the two girls out of
the window.
255
00:16:16,670 --> 00:16:19,670
We had had a pickup truck that was in
the driveway, and he put us in the truck
256
00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:23,290
and, you know, told us to stay down, not
to turn around and look. And shortly
257
00:16:23,290 --> 00:16:24,850
thereafter, he came back with my
brother.
258
00:16:25,270 --> 00:16:28,730
The children's mother, Christina
Carlson, is still in the house.
259
00:16:29,050 --> 00:16:33,370
She is taking a bath when the fire
breaks out. The fire is raging in the
260
00:16:33,370 --> 00:16:34,630
just outside the bathroom.
261
00:16:35,270 --> 00:16:36,270
She's trapped.
262
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,360
But as a child, like, I didn't
understand what was happening. I knew
263
00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:44,180
fire, but it never really crossed my
mind that, you know, oh, my gosh, like,
264
00:16:44,180 --> 00:16:47,440
mom is, she's in there, and she's stuck,
and she's going to die.
265
00:16:48,060 --> 00:16:52,300
Erin says her father runs to the
bathroom window to try rescuing her
266
00:16:52,300 --> 00:16:53,800
the window is boarded shut.
267
00:16:55,300 --> 00:16:59,940
The glass pane was previously broken,
and Carl temporarily patched it with
268
00:16:59,940 --> 00:17:00,940
plywood.
269
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:05,640
He walked into the house, and he was
kind of kicking at the concrete
270
00:17:06,780 --> 00:17:09,740
And then turned around and came back
after, you know, a few minutes.
271
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:11,900
He was just kind of standing there
watching.
272
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:14,900
Christina Carlson doesn't make it.
273
00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:18,599
She's overwhelmed by smoke and dies in
the bathroom.
274
00:17:19,380 --> 00:17:23,420
Before emergency crews even reach the
cabin, Erin says her father tells the
275
00:17:23,420 --> 00:17:24,740
that their mother is gone.
276
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:29,620
At the time, I didn't understand. He
told us that Mommy had gone to heaven,
277
00:17:29,620 --> 00:17:32,680
I didn't understand really what that
meant.
278
00:17:35,530 --> 00:17:39,950
Next on American Greed, without their
mother around, the kids say Carl focuses
279
00:17:39,950 --> 00:17:41,690
his rage on them.
280
00:17:42,270 --> 00:17:49,150
He would utilize physical punishment as
a mental punishment. So he would
281
00:17:49,150 --> 00:17:54,630
have me carry 10 -gallon buckets full of
water back and forth from the barn to
282
00:17:54,630 --> 00:17:57,110
the house until my body would give out.
283
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,200
It's New Year's Day, 1991, in Central
California.
284
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,480
Word of Christina Carlson's tragic death
spreads to her family.
285
00:18:24,980 --> 00:18:31,880
I got to my mom's house, went in, told
her husband, I need to tell you
286
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:33,080
something, it's not good.
287
00:18:33,360 --> 00:18:36,400
And I looked at her eyes, and I still
remember to this day.
288
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,400
I started screaming, and I couldn't even
stop.
289
00:18:40,700 --> 00:18:44,540
And Colette kept rubbing my back and
getting me to...
290
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:45,760
Calm down.
291
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,980
It's pretty hard to calm down when
you're just told your daughter died in
292
00:18:49,980 --> 00:18:55,140
fire. When Collette and her mother
arrive in Murphys, they soon find Erin,
293
00:18:55,380 --> 00:18:56,940
Christina's oldest daughter.
294
00:18:57,340 --> 00:19:02,040
And she goes, Hi, Aunt Collette. Did you
know Mommy's in heaven with baby Jesus?
295
00:19:02,180 --> 00:19:05,920
And her next words were, I heard Mommy
calling for Daddy.
296
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:08,560
And Daddy didn't do anything.
297
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,520
Colette says Carl is casually leaning
against the wall.
298
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,080
I said, I want to go see my sister. And
he said, you can't.
299
00:19:16,380 --> 00:19:18,200
And I said, why not?
300
00:19:18,540 --> 00:19:20,520
And he said, she's a crispy critter.
301
00:19:21,620 --> 00:19:24,980
It's not only diabolically cruel, it's
untrue.
302
00:19:25,500 --> 00:19:29,480
Fire investigators say the flames never
actually made it into the bathroom.
303
00:19:30,820 --> 00:19:34,520
Investigators say Christina dies from
smoke inhalation.
304
00:19:35,130 --> 00:19:39,970
The broken window that was nailed shut
with plywood sealed Christina's fate.
305
00:19:40,270 --> 00:19:45,330
This here is a good bathroom where
Christina was found.
306
00:19:47,910 --> 00:19:54,130
And I realized that this fire that came
through the house, it didn't burn up the
307
00:19:54,130 --> 00:19:55,850
bathroom where my sister was.
308
00:19:56,170 --> 00:20:00,850
So this whole she's a crispy critter
thing is not resonating even worse at
309
00:20:00,850 --> 00:20:03,350
point. Like, this is, something's wrong.
310
00:20:04,220 --> 00:20:08,600
Investigators say spilled kerosene in
the hallway outside the bathroom likely
311
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:09,840
started the fire.
312
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:14,920
With the cabin's sparse accommodations,
kerosene was needed in the house to keep
313
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:15,919
it heated.
314
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,060
A kerosene heater, spam heater, sits on
the floor.
315
00:20:19,580 --> 00:20:24,040
Supposedly the kerosene had been spilled
and maybe the dog. I never have heard
316
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,420
for sure how it ignited. And I knew
there was a spill on the carpet. My
317
00:20:27,420 --> 00:20:31,500
had put blankets and towels down like we
were kids, right? So we were climbing
318
00:20:31,500 --> 00:20:34,540
this blanket mountain and having the
time of our lives because it was in the
319
00:20:34,540 --> 00:20:35,540
middle of the hallway.
320
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:37,720
Investigators ruled the fire an
accident.
321
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:44,100
The insurance company gives Carl Carlson
a $215 ,000 payout for his wife's
322
00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:45,100
death.
323
00:20:47,370 --> 00:20:51,130
Just a few days after the incident, Carl
is gone.
324
00:20:52,070 --> 00:20:58,230
So we did a memorial service that was
four days after she had passed away.
325
00:20:59,670 --> 00:21:06,570
And that night, or the next day, Carl
and the kids were on a plane
326
00:21:06,570 --> 00:21:07,549
to New York.
327
00:21:07,550 --> 00:21:08,850
The kids are young.
328
00:21:09,410 --> 00:21:11,070
Erin's the oldest at six.
329
00:21:11,830 --> 00:21:15,130
Christina's family doesn't even get a
chance to say goodbye to them.
330
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,340
And our side of the family was really
shocked by that.
331
00:21:19,740 --> 00:21:23,740
I mean, those are our grandchildren too,
okay?
332
00:21:24,660 --> 00:21:29,560
So two weeks later, we did actually bury
my sister.
333
00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:31,860
Carl didn't come back for that.
334
00:21:32,620 --> 00:21:36,600
Investigators in Calaveras County still
want to talk to Carl about the fire.
335
00:21:36,940 --> 00:21:41,900
But unfortunately, due to budget
limitations, they're unable to fly to
336
00:21:41,900 --> 00:21:43,500
and question Carl further.
337
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:49,380
Cal Fire also dropped the ball. The Cal
Fire investigator asked to interview
338
00:21:49,380 --> 00:21:53,280
Carl in New York, and they said there
wasn't enough money. Their investigation
339
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,400
hits a dead end and is dropped.
340
00:21:55,940 --> 00:22:00,020
Christina's family is devastated and
confused by the sequence of events.
341
00:22:00,500 --> 00:22:05,080
He murdered her. There was no doubt in
our mind that he did this, and he did it
342
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:06,080
for the insurance money.
343
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,100
But we had to come to terms with the
fact that he got away with it.
344
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,900
Meanwhile, in central New York, Carl
Carlson begins rebuilding his life.
345
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:28,160
Using the insurance money from
Christina's death, he purchases a farm
346
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:29,860
raises Belgian draft horses.
347
00:22:30,740 --> 00:22:33,220
He marries a woman named Cindy Best.
348
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:38,600
As the kids grow up in their new home,
old ghosts come back to haunt their
349
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:43,320
lives. Without their birth mother
around, the kids say Carl begins taking
350
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:44,820
his frustrations on them.
351
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,740
When my father was going to beat us, he
would send us all to our rooms, right,
352
00:22:48,820 --> 00:22:50,440
so that there really wouldn't be any
witnesses.
353
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:57,020
Unfortunately for Levi, he was often
taken to the barn, where nobody would
354
00:22:57,020 --> 00:23:02,660
only see, nobody would hear what was
going on. Levi would get beat with
355
00:23:02,660 --> 00:23:04,840
that my father had within reach.
356
00:23:05,260 --> 00:23:11,960
His fist, pipe, shovel, pitchforks,
belt, electric cattle
357
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:12,960
prod.
358
00:23:13,290 --> 00:23:17,050
You name it, it was used as a weapon
against my brother.
359
00:23:17,470 --> 00:23:20,610
Erin says she also takes her share of
abuse.
360
00:23:21,150 --> 00:23:27,170
So he would tell me that my mother would
not be proud of who I was. He would
361
00:23:27,170 --> 00:23:31,330
tell me that I was fat or that I had a
big ass.
362
00:23:31,810 --> 00:23:36,010
Katie, for the most part, says she
manages to escape her father's wrath.
363
00:23:36,650 --> 00:23:41,270
For me, it was more, again, you know,
backing me into a corner, squeezing my
364
00:23:41,270 --> 00:23:47,990
arm, bending my arm, just real, a show
of strength without necessarily having
365
00:23:47,990 --> 00:23:48,990
to leave marks.
366
00:23:49,250 --> 00:23:53,830
My father was very careful not to hit us
in our faces, although that was not off
367
00:23:53,830 --> 00:23:54,689
limits either.
368
00:23:54,690 --> 00:23:59,190
But he was very cautious to not leave
overt marks.
369
00:23:59,730 --> 00:24:04,090
So at least anywhere that would be
visible to the family or the public.
370
00:24:04,460 --> 00:24:08,160
Aaron says their father beats them
because they figured out his secret.
371
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,740
Their mother's death was no accident.
372
00:24:11,450 --> 00:24:15,090
Levi and I would talk and put pieces
together and be like, okay, well, this
373
00:24:15,090 --> 00:24:18,030
doesn't make sense. Like, do you think
this is what happened? Because this is
374
00:24:18,030 --> 00:24:19,030
what I'm pretty sure happened.
375
00:24:19,250 --> 00:24:23,810
When they're teenagers, Erin says she
and Levi actually confront their father
376
00:24:23,810 --> 00:24:25,070
about the cabin fire.
377
00:24:25,550 --> 00:24:30,090
And his concern was how would the
community perceive his own children
378
00:24:30,090 --> 00:24:35,750
questioning, you know, if he murdered,
you know, his first wife and our mother.
379
00:24:35,850 --> 00:24:40,250
And that was his big concern, his
perception within the community.
380
00:24:41,610 --> 00:24:47,490
Next on American Greed, it's deja vu at
the Carlson home as fire strikes again.
381
00:24:47,970 --> 00:24:51,370
I'll go to my grave thinking that he was
involved in that barn. How many times
382
00:24:51,370 --> 00:24:52,370
can you do it?
383
00:24:52,990 --> 00:24:54,390
And every time he got away with it.
384
00:25:09,900 --> 00:25:15,200
In 2002, the Carlson family farm in
central New York is the site of another
385
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:16,740
unexplained tragedy.
386
00:25:17,180 --> 00:25:22,680
One summer night, their horse barn
catches fire. I remember waking up, so
387
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:27,980
room in the house had a window that
directly faced the barn, and I remember
388
00:25:27,980 --> 00:25:33,580
waking up and seeing the blaze. Three of
Carl's prized horses die in the fire,
389
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:34,780
and the barn is destroyed.
390
00:25:35,180 --> 00:25:37,180
But there's a silver lining for Carl.
391
00:25:37,550 --> 00:25:42,490
He receives a hefty insurance payout. So
right before the barn fire, he went to
392
00:25:42,490 --> 00:25:46,110
the insurance agent, upped the insurance
on the barn. So I believe it was well
393
00:25:46,110 --> 00:25:48,390
over $100 ,000 on the barn and three
horses.
394
00:25:48,690 --> 00:25:53,670
Although Carl benefits from yet another
fire and payout, neither the police nor
395
00:25:53,670 --> 00:25:55,730
insurers appear to be suspicious.
396
00:25:56,390 --> 00:26:00,670
And I'm saying how many insurance
payouts does somebody need?
397
00:26:00,930 --> 00:26:03,130
For the pattern to me was glaring.
398
00:26:03,530 --> 00:26:07,670
At the time of the barn fire, Katie and
her half -brother are the only children
399
00:26:07,670 --> 00:26:08,670
that live at home.
400
00:26:08,910 --> 00:26:14,270
Earlier that year, oldest sister Erin
graduates from high school and enlists
401
00:26:14,270 --> 00:26:15,270
the Air Force.
402
00:26:15,430 --> 00:26:19,650
Their brother Levi moves out several
months earlier at the age of 16.
403
00:26:20,150 --> 00:26:24,710
Levi lives with various relatives and
eventually gets married to his high
404
00:26:24,710 --> 00:26:25,950
sweetheart, Cassie.
405
00:26:26,350 --> 00:26:31,310
He talked quite frequently about his
mom. He loved her so dearly. He had told
406
00:26:31,310 --> 00:26:34,390
several times that he thought his father
had killed his mother.
407
00:26:34,630 --> 00:26:36,910
The couple eventually have two
daughters.
408
00:26:37,270 --> 00:26:40,990
They were his whole world. I think he
wanted to be a better dad than what his
409
00:26:40,990 --> 00:26:42,150
dad was to him.
410
00:26:42,690 --> 00:26:46,330
Cassie says Levi keeps in touch with his
father for the benefit of his younger
411
00:26:46,330 --> 00:26:47,710
sister and half -brother.
412
00:26:48,370 --> 00:26:51,710
So that's why he always continued to
deal with his dad as much as he could
413
00:26:51,710 --> 00:26:53,590
because he wanted to be there for his
siblings.
414
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:59,200
But despite their contentious
relationship, Carl offers to do
415
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:00,280
Levi and his children.
416
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,600
In late 2008, he recommends Levi
purchase a life insurance policy.
417
00:27:05,020 --> 00:27:07,880
Carl even offers to get the process
started.
418
00:27:08,300 --> 00:27:13,920
Carl went to the insurance agent to his
office. I believe he paid cash for the
419
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:18,040
premium, the first premium, which the
agent thought was unusual.
420
00:27:18,620 --> 00:27:22,160
The policy is for a whopping $700 ,000.
421
00:27:23,270 --> 00:27:26,790
Remarkably, Carl is named the
beneficiary of the policy.
422
00:27:27,210 --> 00:27:30,410
How did you think that was a logical way
to represent their client?
423
00:27:30,990 --> 00:27:32,870
Was it really in his best interest?
424
00:27:33,150 --> 00:27:39,630
And oh, by the way, you named the father
the beneficiary?
425
00:27:39,750 --> 00:27:42,770
The guy has two little children he's
responsible for.
426
00:27:43,470 --> 00:27:45,470
You didn't name them beneficiary?
427
00:27:45,730 --> 00:27:50,490
17 days later, on November 20th, Carl
asks Levi to work on his truck.
428
00:27:51,130 --> 00:27:55,790
But before they go to the farm, Carl
tells Levi they need to go to the town
429
00:27:55,790 --> 00:27:58,050
Geneva to handle some paperwork.
430
00:27:58,550 --> 00:28:05,250
But before his son came down, Carl wrote
out a will, but he took his son to a
431
00:28:05,250 --> 00:28:06,149
local bank.
432
00:28:06,150 --> 00:28:09,850
Carl thought that by having this
document notarized, it would be an
433
00:28:09,850 --> 00:28:15,910
will. The will gave everything to Carl,
the father, and it also said Levi does
434
00:28:15,910 --> 00:28:17,090
not want to be on life support.
435
00:28:17,870 --> 00:28:21,050
But just why would Levi sign such a
will?
436
00:28:21,470 --> 00:28:26,150
I think that Levi was so desperate to
repair his relationship with our father
437
00:28:26,150 --> 00:28:33,070
that he, unfortunately, put blind faith
in him and believed that
438
00:28:33,070 --> 00:28:37,110
this really was in the best interest of
his girls.
439
00:28:37,470 --> 00:28:41,490
A couple of hours later, the father and
son are back at the farm to work on the
440
00:28:41,490 --> 00:28:45,450
truck. Levi has no idea what is about to
happen.
441
00:28:45,690 --> 00:28:46,690
Ma 'am?
442
00:28:59,100 --> 00:29:03,440
Police investigators say Levi's death
appears to be an accident.
443
00:29:03,940 --> 00:29:06,160
Because farm accidents are actually not
uncommon here.
444
00:29:07,220 --> 00:29:10,560
Farming is pretty dangerous work and
accidents happen all the time.
445
00:29:10,780 --> 00:29:14,880
At this moment, no one else in the
family knows about the will or the life
446
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:15,880
insurance policy.
447
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:18,060
But suspicions remain.
448
00:29:18,580 --> 00:29:23,220
And so I called my mom, and then I
called my dad, and I said, Dad, I don't
449
00:29:23,220 --> 00:29:26,300
what he stands to gain from this, but I
know he did it.
450
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:34,000
Next on American Greed, an unexpected
phone call exposes Carl's deeds and
451
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,380
investigators close in. You're a money
-driven individual, Carl, period.
452
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,700
$700 ,000 is what you would gain from
his death.
453
00:29:42,790 --> 00:29:46,290
$200 ,000 is what you had gained from
your wife's death in California.
454
00:29:47,890 --> 00:29:48,450
After
455
00:29:48,450 --> 00:30:02,170
Carl
456
00:30:02,170 --> 00:30:07,770
gets his $700 ,000 payout from Levi's
insurance policy, he goes on a shopping
457
00:30:07,770 --> 00:30:13,370
spree. Dad had a F -150, and then he had
a Ford Ranger. There were
458
00:30:13,370 --> 00:30:18,590
tractors and trailers and duck, lots and
lots of duck.
459
00:30:18,890 --> 00:30:24,770
Carl has big plans for his ducks. He
buys thousands of them. He invested most
460
00:30:24,770 --> 00:30:28,210
the money in a duck farm. He was going
to raise these ducks and sell the duck
461
00:30:28,210 --> 00:30:29,850
meat to New York City restaurants.
462
00:30:30,310 --> 00:30:34,790
In the four years after Levi's death,
Carl appears to live the good life.
463
00:30:35,370 --> 00:30:39,670
But in 2012, his marriage to Cindy
begins to crumble and they split.
464
00:30:40,370 --> 00:30:45,430
In the midst of the divorce drama, in
the spring of 2012, the sheriff's office
465
00:30:45,430 --> 00:30:49,650
in Seneca County, New York, gets a
surprising phone call from Cindy's
466
00:30:49,770 --> 00:30:51,390
who lives in Kentucky.
467
00:30:52,390 --> 00:30:56,430
She asked, did you investigate the death
of Levi Carlson? So she said, well, you
468
00:30:56,430 --> 00:30:57,950
might want to look into that a little
more.
469
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:04,060
The cousin tells John Clear that Cindy
suspects Carl murdered Levi, but is
470
00:31:04,060 --> 00:31:05,780
hesitant about contacting authorities.
471
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:12,160
She says, well, there was a suspicious
death back in 1991 in California, and
472
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:13,760
guys really need to look at this closer.
473
00:31:14,620 --> 00:31:19,020
John Clear begins making calls and
quickly finds out that the cousin's
474
00:31:19,020 --> 00:31:20,020
checks out.
475
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:26,080
His next call is to Cindy Carlson. I
said I'm calling you to tell you that
476
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,800
reopened the investigation to the death
of your son.
477
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,680
And she said, thank God you called.
478
00:31:34,340 --> 00:31:37,600
Clear says Cindy tells them she is
afraid for her life.
479
00:31:38,300 --> 00:31:41,500
She said, I've always thought that maybe
he killed, you know, Levi.
480
00:31:41,740 --> 00:31:45,000
In fact, she told us, I've moved out.
You know, we're separated.
481
00:31:45,620 --> 00:31:48,900
I'm going to get divorced because I'm
afraid he might come after me.
482
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:50,980
But the sheriff's office needs more
proof.
483
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,320
They want Cindy to wear a wire.
484
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:58,460
Cindy agrees and calls Carl. She asks
him to meet her at a restaurant in
485
00:31:58,460 --> 00:32:02,600
Waterloo. She tells Carl the meeting is
about getting back together.
486
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,480
But we deliberately picked that
restaurant because there was no private
487
00:32:06,660 --> 00:32:11,260
It's all open tables so that people can
overhear. We put some undercover
488
00:32:11,260 --> 00:32:14,340
officers in the restaurant with them.
489
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,640
for safety purposes, but also as
witnesses.
490
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:23,200
While Carl never openly admits to
killing Levi, investigators say he
491
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,140
just enough for them to take action.
492
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,580
But he did say some very disturbing
things.
493
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:30,480
He
494
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:37,840
said
495
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,420
that he took advantage of the
opportunity.
496
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,560
What parent talks about the death of
their child as an opportunity?
497
00:32:45,100 --> 00:32:50,960
The day after Thanksgiving, sheriff's
officers bring Carl Carlson to the
498
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:51,960
for questioning.
499
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,860
The interrogation lasts nine and a half
hours.
500
00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:59,820
Oh, no, no, no, no.
501
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:06,400
Okay. You guys don't know what happened
that day. The day that my son died.
502
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:07,840
I found him dead.
503
00:33:08,180 --> 00:33:09,700
The truck was on him.
504
00:33:10,820 --> 00:33:15,380
They come in, try doing CPR, and he was
already gone.
505
00:33:15,700 --> 00:33:19,740
Claire says Carlson gives them multiple
versions of that day's events.
506
00:33:20,860 --> 00:33:23,280
But eventually, he starts to crack.
507
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:39,700
To kill him. No, I didn't kill him.
508
00:33:40,020 --> 00:33:41,020
You did kill him.
509
00:33:42,020 --> 00:33:43,120
You did kill him. I did.
510
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:44,840
Intentionally. No.
511
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:46,400
Accidentally.
512
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:51,600
Yeah, it was an accident. Ultimately, he
breaks down and tells me that he caused
513
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:58,400
the truck to fall on his son and then
walked out and left him
514
00:33:58,400 --> 00:33:59,400
dying on the floor.
515
00:34:00,580 --> 00:34:01,940
I mean, it was an accident.
516
00:34:02,460 --> 00:34:05,980
I blame myself every day, just like you
said.
517
00:34:19,220 --> 00:34:24,560
While Levi was underneath the truck,
authorities say Carl Carlson opens the
518
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:29,020
driver's side door and steps inside the
cabin, causing the jack to give.
519
00:34:30,409 --> 00:34:34,570
He did that, the truck fell, and then he
decided to walk away, a helpless
520
00:34:34,570 --> 00:34:36,130
victim. That's murder in the second
grade.
521
00:34:37,790 --> 00:34:41,409
Next on American Greed, Carl has his day
in court.
522
00:34:41,630 --> 00:34:44,449
A new revelation stunned his family.
523
00:34:44,770 --> 00:34:50,790
I want it known that, you know, my kids
had a bounty on their head.
524
00:35:08,170 --> 00:35:14,330
In 2012, four years after the death of
Levi Carlson, police officially arrest
525
00:35:14,330 --> 00:35:19,030
Carl Carlson and charge him with second
degree murder and insurance fraud.
526
00:35:19,770 --> 00:35:23,550
I was definitely in shock when I was
told that dad was arrested.
527
00:35:23,790 --> 00:35:28,990
I didn't think that it would ever
happen. So to hear that he had been
528
00:35:28,990 --> 00:35:35,230
was a relief and like accumulation of,
you know, 20 plus years worth of
529
00:35:36,090 --> 00:35:41,050
The family is stunned when they learn
the bitter truth about Levi's $700 ,000
530
00:35:41,050 --> 00:35:42,390
insurance policy.
531
00:35:42,690 --> 00:35:48,290
The insurance policy money explains
Carl's shopping spree, but ultimately
532
00:35:48,290 --> 00:35:49,450
more questions.
533
00:35:49,930 --> 00:35:56,890
If there was that level of money
available, why on God's green earth was
534
00:35:56,890 --> 00:36:02,110
struggling so hard working her butt off
for those little girls?
535
00:36:02,540 --> 00:36:07,480
She shouldn't have had to. That money
should have gotten her a house or a car
536
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:08,720
put the girls through school.
537
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,520
But that's nothing compared to what
Levi's ex -wife learns.
538
00:36:12,820 --> 00:36:17,040
While meeting with police investigators,
Cassie discovers that Carl may have
539
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:18,680
been plotting more schemes.
540
00:36:19,420 --> 00:36:23,560
John Clear met me in the foyer and we
walked down to his office and he opened
541
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:29,340
the conversation with, were you aware
that there were life insurance policies
542
00:36:29,340 --> 00:36:30,340
your children?
543
00:36:30,700 --> 00:36:34,780
Authorities say Carl took out life
insurance policies on Cassie and Levi's
544
00:36:34,780 --> 00:36:38,940
daughters, each worth more than $350
,000.
545
00:36:39,620 --> 00:36:44,400
Who the hell put that kind of life
insurance on a four and six year old?
546
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:46,600
Why?
547
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:54,300
That's just, that's, that's ludicrous.
That's obscene. It amazes me to this day
548
00:36:54,300 --> 00:36:55,440
that you can take.
549
00:36:56,330 --> 00:37:01,850
a $350 ,000 insurance policy on a child
without telling the parent that you're
550
00:37:01,850 --> 00:37:02,649
doing it.
551
00:37:02,650 --> 00:37:06,550
You know, he would have got at least
$600 ,000, maybe $700 ,000 by killing
552
00:37:06,550 --> 00:37:07,890
two grandkids.
553
00:37:08,090 --> 00:37:11,990
He was sole beneficiary on those two
policies, and those two grandkids were
554
00:37:11,990 --> 00:37:13,230
going to be next. He needed the money.
555
00:37:13,650 --> 00:37:19,310
Nearly a year after his arrest, in
November 2013, Carl pleads guilty to the
556
00:37:19,310 --> 00:37:20,570
second -degree murder charge.
557
00:37:21,070 --> 00:37:25,490
As part of his plea deal, the insurance
fraud charges are dropped.
558
00:37:26,270 --> 00:37:28,850
His sentence is 15 years to life.
559
00:37:29,150 --> 00:37:34,150
He is a person who can kill without
emotion, you know, to kill your own son
560
00:37:34,150 --> 00:37:37,710
then not have any remorse about it.
That's not human.
561
00:37:38,030 --> 00:37:39,030
Well, that's just it.
562
00:37:39,850 --> 00:37:43,670
That's absolutely just it. How do you
explain that to a child that their
563
00:37:43,670 --> 00:37:46,410
father's life was worthless to his
father?
564
00:37:47,410 --> 00:37:51,630
That a human being is expendable for a
check.
565
00:37:54,960 --> 00:38:00,040
After Carl's conviction in New York,
prosecutors in Calaveras County reopened
566
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,760
the case of Christina Carlson's death
back in 1991.
567
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:09,360
I was concerned because of the lack of
physical evidence. It's been 30 years,
568
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,320
most of the evidence was destroyed.
569
00:38:11,780 --> 00:38:16,420
But while physical evidence is scant,
prosecutors do have an ace up their
570
00:38:16,420 --> 00:38:21,340
sleeve. Ken Buskey is a forensic
engineer who originally investigated the
571
00:38:21,340 --> 00:38:22,580
back in 1991.
572
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:27,020
He still has his case files and
testifies in court.
573
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,600
Yes, I know how the fire started, and
when I worked down on the carpet, I
574
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:36,140
see where kerosene had been spilled, and
it had a lot of time to wick out
575
00:38:36,140 --> 00:38:40,120
through the carpet. While Buskey says
the kerosene spill on the carpet was
576
00:38:40,300 --> 00:38:44,580
there's evidence that fresh kerosene was
poured throughout the cabin immediately
577
00:38:44,580 --> 00:38:46,180
before the fire.
578
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:52,020
Somebody poured kerosene on purpose
outside the bathroom door, and then as
579
00:38:52,020 --> 00:38:56,400
were pouring it, they worked northward
toward the child's...
580
00:38:56,620 --> 00:38:57,620
the girl's bedroom.
581
00:38:58,060 --> 00:39:03,640
So it was very clear that somebody
poured a kerosene immediately prior to
582
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,240
fire, within minutes, very few minutes.
583
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:11,400
And the only way for that kerosene to
have been ignited was somebody to use a
584
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,100
match or a cigarette lighter or
something like that to light it.
585
00:39:14,500 --> 00:39:18,400
As for the boarded -up window in the
bathroom where Christina Carlson died,
586
00:39:18,900 --> 00:39:22,120
Carl's story and the details don't add
up.
587
00:39:22,380 --> 00:39:25,000
Well, there were 17 nails in that piece
of plywood.
588
00:39:25,970 --> 00:39:28,970
Only, according to him, only three of
which hit wood.
589
00:39:29,870 --> 00:39:31,450
The rest were in sheetrock.
590
00:39:31,870 --> 00:39:35,530
It was nailed from the inside out.
Anything from the outside could have
591
00:39:35,530 --> 00:39:36,328
that board in.
592
00:39:36,330 --> 00:39:38,810
I had to second guess my entire life.
593
00:39:41,090 --> 00:39:43,710
Sitting in the stand, it was obvious. He
did it.
594
00:39:45,830 --> 00:39:50,730
In February 2020, the family finally
gets justice for Christina.
595
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:56,360
A jury finds Carlson guilty of first
-degree murder by arson.
596
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,480
I almost jumped up and down on the
judge's desk. That's what I felt like
597
00:40:01,220 --> 00:40:05,420
The sentence was life without parole.
598
00:40:06,020 --> 00:40:11,780
With the case finally in the rearview
mirror, after three grueling decades,
599
00:40:11,780 --> 00:40:15,260
family says they just have one order of
business to take care of.
600
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:20,440
Levi's children still haven't seen a
dime of the $700 ,000 insurance money.
601
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,040
Levi's will explicitly states,
602
00:40:23,180 --> 00:40:31,140
That's
603
00:40:31,140 --> 00:40:35,480
what that money was intended for, to
help raise those girls, do everything
604
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:36,820
my brother can no longer do.
605
00:40:37,380 --> 00:40:43,040
In addition to the insurance policies
taken out on the girls, Carl invested
606
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,340
,000 in a fixed annuity.
607
00:40:45,660 --> 00:40:49,980
He also bought $70 ,000 annuities for
each of the granddaughters.
608
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:55,720
In late 2011 and early 2012, those
accounts were liquidated.
609
00:40:56,020 --> 00:41:02,240
What I struggle with is, as power of
attorney, having documents on some of
610
00:41:02,240 --> 00:41:07,020
accounts and seeing how many opened
within a year of Levi's death.
611
00:41:07,260 --> 00:41:10,860
But none of the money ever ended up
going to the girl.
612
00:41:11,180 --> 00:41:16,200
The advisor who set up the accounts
tells investigators that he advised
613
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,180
the withdrawals, calling it financially
irresponsible.
614
00:41:20,300 --> 00:41:24,520
Carl's daughters want to know how much
money is left and where it went.
615
00:41:24,940 --> 00:41:26,960
I think this is necessary.
616
00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:32,180
The financial trail, the motive behind
all of this is very important.
617
00:41:32,580 --> 00:41:38,680
There is money still lingering that my
brother wanted his children to have, and
618
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:40,540
rightfully so, they should have it.
619
00:41:40,780 --> 00:41:45,920
As for Carl, with his two life
sentences, he will likely never see the
620
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:46,920
world again.
621
00:41:47,420 --> 00:41:48,980
That man!
622
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:51,700
He doesn't deserve to live.
623
00:41:53,220 --> 00:41:58,500
Stan, he does not deserve to live.
624
00:41:59,060 --> 00:42:00,100
Say what you want to say.
625
00:42:00,580 --> 00:42:03,500
I don't care. I'm not going to disagree
with you. I think he's a jackass and
626
00:42:03,500 --> 00:42:04,500
deserves to die in prison.
627
00:42:04,620 --> 00:42:09,880
I don't care how old he gets. I don't
care if he is 80. I think he actually
628
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,800
a great deal of satisfaction out of
being that person to control your last
629
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:15,540
breath. He should never get out.
630
00:42:15,790 --> 00:42:19,130
Because I don't care how old he is, he
will hurt somebody else.
55516
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