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This programme contains
detailed discussions
about suicide and mental health
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00:00:04,990 --> 00:00:06,990
This programme contains
detailed discussions
about suicide and mental health
3
00:00:07,030 --> 00:00:07,270
This programme contains
detailed discussions
about suicide and mental health
4
00:00:07,910 --> 00:00:09,830
New Year's Eve, 2022.
5
00:00:11,350 --> 00:00:13,350
Immy was going to a party.
6
00:00:13,390 --> 00:00:13,990
Immy was going to a party.
7
00:00:14,030 --> 00:00:16,030
She had plans for next year.
8
00:00:16,070 --> 00:00:16,270
She had plans for next year.
9
00:00:16,310 --> 00:00:17,790
It was lovely.
10
00:00:17,830 --> 00:00:19,550
She was really excited.
11
00:00:19,590 --> 00:00:21,110
MUSIC PLAYS
12
00:00:21,150 --> 00:00:23,150
About 5:20 in the morning,
my phone was ringing.
13
00:00:23,190 --> 00:00:23,790
About 5:20 in the morning,
my phone was ringing.
14
00:00:23,830 --> 00:00:25,350
PHONE VIBRATES
15
00:00:25,390 --> 00:00:27,390
Straight away I...
..I knew it was bad.
16
00:00:27,430 --> 00:00:27,870
Straight away I...
..I knew it was bad.
17
00:00:30,310 --> 00:00:32,310
It was her friend's mum who just
realised Immy's left the party.
18
00:00:32,350 --> 00:00:34,230
It was her friend's mum who just
realised Immy's left the party.
19
00:00:36,350 --> 00:00:38,230
She hasn't got her shoes on.
20
00:00:38,270 --> 00:00:40,270
We're going to go out
and look for her.
21
00:00:40,310 --> 00:00:40,510
We're going to go out
and look for her.
22
00:00:41,630 --> 00:00:43,630
For Immy to go missing,
something's happened.
23
00:00:43,670 --> 00:00:45,670
For Immy to go missing,
something's happened.
24
00:00:45,710 --> 00:00:45,950
For Immy to go missing,
something's happened.
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00:00:45,990 --> 00:00:47,470
ENGINE STARTS
26
00:00:47,510 --> 00:00:48,790
TYRES SCREECH
27
00:00:48,830 --> 00:00:50,830
Her dad said, "Lou, I'm just going
to go straight to her flat,
28
00:00:50,870 --> 00:00:51,750
Her dad said, "Lou, I'm just going
to go straight to her flat,
29
00:00:51,790 --> 00:00:53,790
"see if I can find her."
30
00:00:53,830 --> 00:00:53,990
"see if I can find her."
31
00:00:55,510 --> 00:00:57,430
He got there within 20 minutes.
32
00:00:57,470 --> 00:00:59,190
INDISTINCT POLICE RADIO CHATTER
33
00:00:59,230 --> 00:01:01,230
He rang me going,
"The police are here.
34
00:01:01,270 --> 00:01:02,910
He rang me going,
"The police are here.
35
00:01:02,950 --> 00:01:04,950
"She's in the flat but she's...
36
00:01:04,990 --> 00:01:05,590
"She's in the flat but she's...
37
00:01:05,630 --> 00:01:07,390
"..she's not breathing."
38
00:01:10,510 --> 00:01:12,510
And I just remember thinking,
"please, God, you know,
39
00:01:12,550 --> 00:01:14,550
And I just remember thinking,
"please, God, you know,
40
00:01:14,590 --> 00:01:14,870
And I just remember thinking,
"please, God, you know,
41
00:01:14,910 --> 00:01:16,910
"please let them...
Get her breathing again."
42
00:01:16,950 --> 00:01:17,790
"please let them...
Get her breathing again."
43
00:01:22,670 --> 00:01:24,670
When I started looking
into this story,
44
00:01:24,710 --> 00:01:24,990
When I started looking
into this story,
45
00:01:25,030 --> 00:01:27,030
I had no idea it was going to become
as prolific as it's become.
46
00:01:27,070 --> 00:01:29,070
I had no idea it was going to become
as prolific as it's become.
47
00:01:29,110 --> 00:01:29,670
I had no idea it was going to become
as prolific as it's become.
48
00:01:29,710 --> 00:01:31,710
I had no sense that it was
going to involve
49
00:01:31,750 --> 00:01:32,270
I had no sense that it was
going to involve
50
00:01:32,310 --> 00:01:34,310
the deaths of hundreds of people.
51
00:01:34,350 --> 00:01:35,110
the deaths of hundreds of people.
52
00:01:35,150 --> 00:01:37,150
A deadly poison being sold
all over the world,
53
00:01:37,190 --> 00:01:37,750
A deadly poison being sold
all over the world,
54
00:01:37,790 --> 00:01:39,790
intentionally.
55
00:01:39,830 --> 00:01:41,830
Who was behind this?
56
00:01:41,870 --> 00:01:42,190
Who was behind this?
57
00:01:42,230 --> 00:01:44,190
I decided to track this person down,
58
00:01:44,230 --> 00:01:45,950
hold him accountable.
59
00:01:45,990 --> 00:01:47,990
What do you think that the chances
are that it will kill me?
60
00:01:48,030 --> 00:01:48,950
What do you think that the chances
are that it will kill me?
61
00:01:48,990 --> 00:01:50,990
It's a very,
very high probability.
62
00:01:51,030 --> 00:01:51,350
It's a very,
very high probability.
63
00:01:51,390 --> 00:01:52,790
People in the UK have died.
64
00:01:52,830 --> 00:01:54,390
People in the US have died.
65
00:01:54,430 --> 00:01:56,390
People in Canada have died.
66
00:02:02,590 --> 00:02:04,590
This is the equivalent of
posting a loaded gun to somebody,
67
00:02:04,630 --> 00:02:06,630
This is the equivalent of
posting a loaded gun to somebody,
68
00:02:06,670 --> 00:02:07,270
This is the equivalent of
posting a loaded gun to somebody,
69
00:02:07,310 --> 00:02:09,310
with instructions to say,
"pull here on the trigger."
70
00:02:09,350 --> 00:02:10,190
with instructions to say,
"pull here on the trigger."
71
00:02:12,950 --> 00:02:14,950
This person could be one of
the worst mass murderers ever.
72
00:02:14,990 --> 00:02:16,950
This person could be one of
the worst mass murderers ever.
73
00:02:16,990 --> 00:02:18,990
Nobody was doing anything. Nobody.
74
00:02:19,030 --> 00:02:19,230
Nobody was doing anything. Nobody.
75
00:02:19,270 --> 00:02:21,270
It was a consistent shut down.
76
00:02:21,310 --> 00:02:21,830
It was a consistent shut down.
77
00:02:21,870 --> 00:02:23,870
The FBI, the food and drug
administration.
78
00:02:23,910 --> 00:02:25,110
The FBI, the food and drug
administration.
79
00:02:25,150 --> 00:02:27,150
It's just systematic failure
of everything.
80
00:02:27,190 --> 00:02:29,190
It's just systematic failure
of everything.
81
00:02:29,230 --> 00:02:29,510
It's just systematic failure
of everything.
82
00:02:29,550 --> 00:02:31,550
TV REPORTER: The number of deaths
continues to climb.
83
00:02:31,590 --> 00:02:32,390
TV REPORTER: The number of deaths
continues to climb.
84
00:02:32,430 --> 00:02:34,430
Police said he sent more than
1,200 packages
85
00:02:34,470 --> 00:02:35,110
Police said he sent more than
1,200 packages
86
00:02:35,150 --> 00:02:37,150
to 40 countries, earning him
the nickname in British media
87
00:02:37,190 --> 00:02:39,030
to 40 countries, earning him
the nickname in British media
88
00:02:39,070 --> 00:02:41,070
of The Poison King.
89
00:02:41,110 --> 00:02:42,230
of The Poison King.
90
00:02:42,270 --> 00:02:44,270
Every single victim needs justice.
91
00:02:44,310 --> 00:02:45,670
Every single victim needs justice.
92
00:03:27,430 --> 00:03:29,430
Hey, I'm here with Tom
and we're walking home.
93
00:03:29,470 --> 00:03:30,430
Hey, I'm here with Tom
and we're walking home.
94
00:03:31,710 --> 00:03:33,710
Tom was extremely gifted
academically.
95
00:03:33,750 --> 00:03:34,430
Tom was extremely gifted
academically.
96
00:03:37,150 --> 00:03:38,830
Some wonderful friends.
97
00:03:40,030 --> 00:03:42,030
He started university recently.
98
00:03:42,070 --> 00:03:42,790
He started university recently.
99
00:03:45,230 --> 00:03:46,830
He, um...
100
00:03:46,870 --> 00:03:48,870
Yeah, he had a lot to look
forward to.
101
00:03:48,910 --> 00:03:49,190
Yeah, he had a lot to look
forward to.
102
00:03:51,510 --> 00:03:53,510
He was absolutely passionate
about everything from
103
00:03:53,550 --> 00:03:55,310
He was absolutely passionate
about everything from
104
00:03:55,350 --> 00:03:57,350
Manchester United through
to philosophy.
105
00:03:57,390 --> 00:03:58,310
Manchester United through
to philosophy.
106
00:04:00,430 --> 00:04:02,190
Wicked sense of humour.
107
00:04:02,230 --> 00:04:04,070
Quite a dry sense of humour.
108
00:04:06,070 --> 00:04:08,030
His laugh...
109
00:04:08,070 --> 00:04:10,070
Yeah, he had a very
distinctive laugh
110
00:04:10,110 --> 00:04:10,710
Yeah, he had a very
distinctive laugh
111
00:04:10,750 --> 00:04:12,750
that also actually
made me laugh as well.
112
00:04:12,790 --> 00:04:14,790
that also actually
made me laugh as well.
113
00:04:14,830 --> 00:04:16,030
that also actually
made me laugh as well.
114
00:04:16,070 --> 00:04:18,070
He was just
such a lovely man.
115
00:04:18,110 --> 00:04:18,670
He was just
such a lovely man.
116
00:04:21,390 --> 00:04:23,390
Probably not even an hour I go
through without thinking about him.
117
00:04:23,430 --> 00:04:24,830
Probably not even an hour I go
through without thinking about him.
118
00:04:53,390 --> 00:04:55,390
Tom was found in a hotel room
in West London...
119
00:04:55,430 --> 00:04:56,790
Tom was found in a hotel room
in West London...
120
00:04:58,870 --> 00:05:00,870
..a poison next to his body,
121
00:05:00,910 --> 00:05:01,630
..a poison next to his body,
122
00:05:01,670 --> 00:05:03,630
having taken his own life.
123
00:05:06,070 --> 00:05:08,070
It's just a different world
after that,
124
00:05:08,110 --> 00:05:08,350
It's just a different world
after that,
125
00:05:08,390 --> 00:05:09,790
after that moment.
126
00:05:11,070 --> 00:05:13,070
Not going to see him grow up
and have his own family.
127
00:05:13,110 --> 00:05:14,670
Not going to see him grow up
and have his own family.
128
00:05:14,710 --> 00:05:16,710
That's all, that's all gone.
129
00:05:16,750 --> 00:05:16,910
That's all, that's all gone.
130
00:05:24,390 --> 00:05:26,390
When I found out about this poison,
131
00:05:26,430 --> 00:05:28,430
When I found out about this poison,
132
00:05:28,470 --> 00:05:28,670
When I found out about this poison,
133
00:05:28,710 --> 00:05:30,710
I was just ever so angry.
134
00:05:30,750 --> 00:05:30,910
I was just ever so angry.
135
00:05:33,310 --> 00:05:35,310
It's not something I knew about,
not something I'd heard of.
136
00:05:35,350 --> 00:05:36,470
It's not something I knew about,
not something I'd heard of.
137
00:05:36,510 --> 00:05:38,510
How on earth can somebody like my
son get hold of something
138
00:05:38,550 --> 00:05:39,590
How on earth can somebody like my
son get hold of something
139
00:05:39,630 --> 00:05:41,630
like this to kill himself?
140
00:05:41,670 --> 00:05:41,910
like this to kill himself?
141
00:05:41,950 --> 00:05:43,950
How did he find out about
this substance?
142
00:05:43,990 --> 00:05:44,590
How did he find out about
this substance?
143
00:05:45,790 --> 00:05:47,790
I started searching on Google.
144
00:05:47,830 --> 00:05:47,990
I started searching on Google.
145
00:05:49,350 --> 00:05:51,350
I very quickly came across
a forum discussing suicide.
146
00:05:51,390 --> 00:05:52,830
I very quickly came across
a forum discussing suicide.
147
00:06:00,630 --> 00:06:02,630
I was shocked for sure.
148
00:06:02,670 --> 00:06:04,670
I didn't know such places existed.
149
00:06:04,710 --> 00:06:05,430
I didn't know such places existed.
150
00:06:05,470 --> 00:06:07,470
They talk about methods,
151
00:06:07,510 --> 00:06:07,870
They talk about methods,
152
00:06:07,910 --> 00:06:09,910
success rates.
153
00:06:09,950 --> 00:06:10,230
success rates.
154
00:06:10,270 --> 00:06:12,070
If you're going to jump off
a building,
155
00:06:12,110 --> 00:06:14,110
how high do you need to jump?
156
00:06:14,150 --> 00:06:14,310
how high do you need to jump?
157
00:06:17,590 --> 00:06:19,590
It wasn't hidden away in
a dark corner of the internet.
158
00:06:19,630 --> 00:06:21,150
It wasn't hidden away in
a dark corner of the internet.
159
00:06:21,190 --> 00:06:23,190
It wasn't something that maybe just
a few people were using.
160
00:06:23,230 --> 00:06:24,830
It wasn't something that maybe just
a few people were using.
161
00:06:24,870 --> 00:06:26,870
There were lots of people all
over the world
162
00:06:26,910 --> 00:06:27,950
There were lots of people all
over the world
163
00:06:27,990 --> 00:06:29,990
interacting with this platform.
164
00:06:30,030 --> 00:06:30,870
interacting with this platform.
165
00:06:30,910 --> 00:06:32,910
The scale of this was just so
difficult to comprehend.
166
00:06:32,950 --> 00:06:33,950
The scale of this was just so
difficult to comprehend.
167
00:06:36,270 --> 00:06:38,270
This forum gets millions
of hits every month.
168
00:06:38,310 --> 00:06:39,350
This forum gets millions
of hits every month.
169
00:06:41,790 --> 00:06:43,790
A lot of people in the
States, Canada,
170
00:06:43,830 --> 00:06:44,230
A lot of people in the
States, Canada,
171
00:06:44,270 --> 00:06:46,270
UK, Europe, Scandinavia.
172
00:06:46,310 --> 00:06:46,990
UK, Europe, Scandinavia.
173
00:06:53,030 --> 00:06:55,030
To think about each individual
person who's taken this decision
174
00:06:55,070 --> 00:06:56,830
To think about each individual
person who's taken this decision
175
00:06:56,870 --> 00:06:58,550
is just so, so tragic.
176
00:06:59,990 --> 00:07:01,870
The lives that have been lost...
177
00:07:03,830 --> 00:07:05,790
..it...it's just astonishing.
178
00:07:16,710 --> 00:07:18,710
{\an8}I didn't know anything about
suicide forums
179
00:07:18,750 --> 00:07:19,550
{\an8}I didn't know anything about
suicide forums
180
00:07:19,590 --> 00:07:21,590
until this, all of this.
181
00:07:21,630 --> 00:07:23,510
until this, all of this.
182
00:07:23,550 --> 00:07:25,550
Like, just didn't even
that it existed and it's,
183
00:07:25,590 --> 00:07:27,550
Like, just didn't even
that it existed and it's,
184
00:07:27,590 --> 00:07:29,590
yeah, it's terrifying.
185
00:07:29,630 --> 00:07:29,830
yeah, it's terrifying.
186
00:07:29,870 --> 00:07:31,790
And she didn't stand a chance.
187
00:07:39,470 --> 00:07:41,110
INDISTINCT POLICE RADIO CHATTER
188
00:07:41,150 --> 00:07:43,150
The minute I got that phone call
I just remember thinking,
189
00:07:43,190 --> 00:07:44,910
The minute I got that phone call
I just remember thinking,
190
00:07:44,950 --> 00:07:46,830
"Oh, my God...
191
00:07:46,870 --> 00:07:48,870
"Oh, my God."
192
00:07:48,910 --> 00:07:49,110
"Oh, my God."
193
00:07:49,150 --> 00:07:51,070
It just went on and on and...
194
00:07:53,030 --> 00:07:55,030
..it must have been about, I don't
know how long, it felt like forever,
195
00:07:55,070 --> 00:07:57,070
..it must have been about, I don't
know how long, it felt like forever,
196
00:07:57,110 --> 00:07:57,390
..it must have been about, I don't
know how long, it felt like forever,
197
00:07:57,430 --> 00:07:59,430
waiting for him to ring,
you know, to say,
198
00:07:59,470 --> 00:08:00,990
waiting for him to ring,
you know, to say,
199
00:08:01,030 --> 00:08:03,030
"Yeah, she's fine,
she's breathing again."
200
00:08:03,070 --> 00:08:03,270
"Yeah, she's fine,
she's breathing again."
201
00:08:04,430 --> 00:08:06,110
And then he just rang.
202
00:08:07,830 --> 00:08:09,670
He said, "She's gone."
203
00:08:11,510 --> 00:08:13,030
SHE EXHALES DEEPLY
204
00:08:23,270 --> 00:08:25,270
Immy loved her social media, yeah.
205
00:08:25,310 --> 00:08:26,070
Immy loved her social media, yeah.
206
00:08:26,110 --> 00:08:28,110
That's when she found Immy.
207
00:08:28,150 --> 00:08:28,390
That's when she found Immy.
208
00:08:28,430 --> 00:08:30,430
Did you follow her?
Yeah, I followed her straight away.
209
00:08:30,470 --> 00:08:31,030
Did you follow her?
Yeah, I followed her straight away.
210
00:08:31,070 --> 00:08:32,670
She just used to make me giggle.
211
00:08:37,190 --> 00:08:38,510
LOUISE LAUGHS
212
00:08:38,550 --> 00:08:40,550
Immy wanted to use her TikTok to
help people understand
213
00:08:40,590 --> 00:08:42,590
Immy wanted to use her TikTok to
help people understand
214
00:08:42,630 --> 00:08:42,870
Immy wanted to use her TikTok to
help people understand
215
00:08:42,910 --> 00:08:44,910
that having a disability was OK.
216
00:08:44,950 --> 00:08:45,870
that having a disability was OK.
217
00:08:47,910 --> 00:08:49,910
Having mental health problems
was OK, you know.
218
00:08:49,950 --> 00:08:51,030
Having mental health problems
was OK, you know.
219
00:08:51,070 --> 00:08:53,070
It's so, so important to talk
to people how you are feeling.
220
00:08:53,110 --> 00:08:55,110
It's so, so important to talk
to people how you are feeling.
221
00:08:55,150 --> 00:08:55,830
It's so, so important to talk
to people how you are feeling.
222
00:08:55,870 --> 00:08:57,870
To let people know if you
were struggling.
223
00:08:57,910 --> 00:08:58,470
To let people know if you
were struggling.
224
00:08:58,510 --> 00:09:00,510
Just know that you are not alone.
225
00:09:00,550 --> 00:09:00,790
Just know that you are not alone.
226
00:09:00,830 --> 00:09:02,590
Stay safe.
227
00:09:07,070 --> 00:09:09,070
Immy was probably about
13 when she
228
00:09:09,110 --> 00:09:11,110
Immy was probably about
13 when she
229
00:09:11,150 --> 00:09:12,030
Immy was probably about
13 when she
230
00:09:12,070 --> 00:09:14,070
seemed a little bit quieter.
231
00:09:14,110 --> 00:09:14,790
seemed a little bit quieter.
232
00:09:14,830 --> 00:09:16,830
And I think at that age,
it suddenly hit that being deaf
233
00:09:16,870 --> 00:09:18,870
And I think at that age,
it suddenly hit that being deaf
234
00:09:18,910 --> 00:09:19,910
And I think at that age,
it suddenly hit that being deaf
235
00:09:19,950 --> 00:09:21,950
was actually affecting
her at school.
236
00:09:21,990 --> 00:09:23,710
was actually affecting
her at school.
237
00:09:23,750 --> 00:09:25,750
Her mood just continued to drop.
238
00:09:25,790 --> 00:09:25,990
Her mood just continued to drop.
239
00:09:28,910 --> 00:09:30,910
She was in and out of hospitals
from 15 to 24.
240
00:09:30,950 --> 00:09:32,950
She was in and out of hospitals
from 15 to 24.
241
00:09:32,990 --> 00:09:33,190
She was in and out of hospitals
from 15 to 24.
242
00:09:34,510 --> 00:09:36,510
The nine years were
a constant battle.
243
00:09:36,550 --> 00:09:36,910
The nine years were
a constant battle.
244
00:09:38,190 --> 00:09:40,190
Desperate, desperate battle to find
someone that could help her.
245
00:09:40,230 --> 00:09:42,230
Desperate, desperate battle to find
someone that could help her.
246
00:09:42,270 --> 00:09:42,750
Desperate, desperate battle to find
someone that could help her.
247
00:09:57,830 --> 00:09:59,830
Was Immy on the forum, do you know?
248
00:09:59,870 --> 00:10:00,190
Was Immy on the forum, do you know?
249
00:10:00,230 --> 00:10:02,230
Yeah. Immy was on the forum.
250
00:10:02,270 --> 00:10:03,030
Yeah. Immy was on the forum.
251
00:10:03,070 --> 00:10:05,070
I've been shown a comment
that was on there.
252
00:10:05,110 --> 00:10:07,110
I've been shown a comment
that was on there.
253
00:10:07,150 --> 00:10:07,710
I've been shown a comment
that was on there.
254
00:10:07,750 --> 00:10:09,390
As soon as I saw it,
I knew it was Immy.
255
00:10:11,110 --> 00:10:13,110
I could just tell by the way she
said, "My parents loved me.
256
00:10:13,150 --> 00:10:15,070
I could just tell by the way she
said, "My parents loved me.
257
00:10:16,830 --> 00:10:18,830
"And they're going to be
distraught."
258
00:10:18,870 --> 00:10:19,070
"And they're going to be
distraught."
259
00:10:24,750 --> 00:10:26,750
Why do you think she bought
the poison?
260
00:10:26,790 --> 00:10:26,990
Why do you think she bought
the poison?
261
00:10:29,310 --> 00:10:31,310
Maybe people had told her that it
was definitely going to work.
262
00:10:31,350 --> 00:10:32,950
Maybe people had told her that it
was definitely going to work.
263
00:10:41,750 --> 00:10:43,750
I quickly found discussions about
how to source the poison.
264
00:10:43,790 --> 00:10:45,790
I quickly found discussions about
how to source the poison.
265
00:10:45,830 --> 00:10:46,510
I quickly found discussions about
how to source the poison.
266
00:10:46,550 --> 00:10:48,550
How much you need to measure,
how much do you dilute it by.
267
00:10:48,590 --> 00:10:50,230
How much you need to measure,
how much do you dilute it by.
268
00:10:50,270 --> 00:10:52,270
There was a huge volume
of these discussions.
269
00:10:52,310 --> 00:10:53,150
There was a huge volume
of these discussions.
270
00:10:53,190 --> 00:10:55,190
How many do you think?
Hundreds...hundreds of posts
271
00:10:55,230 --> 00:10:55,750
How many do you think?
Hundreds...hundreds of posts
272
00:10:55,790 --> 00:10:57,790
about...about this.
273
00:10:57,830 --> 00:10:59,830
It's just horrendous.
274
00:10:59,870 --> 00:11:00,630
It's just horrendous.
275
00:11:04,830 --> 00:11:06,830
Like many forums,
there's a code.
276
00:11:06,870 --> 00:11:07,070
Like many forums,
there's a code.
277
00:11:07,910 --> 00:11:09,910
One of the codes was
the abbreviation IC...
278
00:11:09,950 --> 00:11:11,750
One of the codes was
the abbreviation IC...
279
00:11:15,350 --> 00:11:17,350
..which seemed to be referring to
a place which would
280
00:11:17,390 --> 00:11:19,390
..which seemed to be referring to
a place which would
281
00:11:19,430 --> 00:11:19,710
..which seemed to be referring to
a place which would
282
00:11:19,750 --> 00:11:21,750
sell that poison that Tom used
to end his own life.
283
00:11:21,790 --> 00:11:22,910
sell that poison that Tom used
to end his own life.
284
00:11:22,950 --> 00:11:24,950
But nobody in the open forum
actually explained what it stood for
285
00:11:24,990 --> 00:11:26,870
But nobody in the open forum
actually explained what it stood for
286
00:11:26,910 --> 00:11:28,790
and what it...what it meant.
287
00:11:31,630 --> 00:11:33,630
I adopted a persona of somebody
new into the forum,
288
00:11:33,670 --> 00:11:35,670
I adopted a persona of somebody
new into the forum,
289
00:11:35,710 --> 00:11:36,550
I adopted a persona of somebody
new into the forum,
290
00:11:36,590 --> 00:11:38,590
was contemplating suicide
and I started posting,
291
00:11:38,630 --> 00:11:40,630
was contemplating suicide
and I started posting,
292
00:11:40,670 --> 00:11:41,630
was contemplating suicide
and I started posting,
293
00:11:41,670 --> 00:11:43,670
asking them what IC stood for.
294
00:11:43,710 --> 00:11:43,870
asking them what IC stood for.
295
00:11:52,790 --> 00:11:54,790
After I'd been on the forum for
a few weeks,
296
00:11:54,830 --> 00:11:55,630
After I'd been on the forum for
a few weeks,
297
00:11:55,670 --> 00:11:57,670
somebody finally explained
what that meant.
298
00:11:57,710 --> 00:11:58,430
somebody finally explained
what that meant.
299
00:12:01,430 --> 00:12:03,430
It was ImTimeCuisine.
300
00:12:03,470 --> 00:12:03,670
It was ImTimeCuisine.
301
00:12:08,990 --> 00:12:10,990
It behaved like any other website
where you might go and buy goods.
302
00:12:11,030 --> 00:12:13,030
It behaved like any other website
where you might go and buy goods.
303
00:12:13,070 --> 00:12:13,990
It behaved like any other website
where you might go and buy goods.
304
00:12:15,710 --> 00:12:17,710
I did some digging around the site,
and I found the poison.
305
00:12:17,750 --> 00:12:19,470
I did some digging around the site,
and I found the poison.
306
00:12:22,150 --> 00:12:24,150
You'd go to the page,
you'd add it to your basket.
307
00:12:24,190 --> 00:12:25,430
You'd go to the page,
you'd add it to your basket.
308
00:12:25,470 --> 00:12:27,470
You don't even have to register -
there were no checks.
309
00:12:27,510 --> 00:12:28,430
You don't even have to register -
there were no checks.
310
00:12:28,470 --> 00:12:30,470
It was like buying a book online.
311
00:12:30,510 --> 00:12:31,910
It was like buying a book online.
312
00:12:31,950 --> 00:12:33,950
They didn't ask my age.
313
00:12:33,990 --> 00:12:34,630
They didn't ask my age.
314
00:12:34,670 --> 00:12:36,550
It was all too easy.
315
00:12:38,830 --> 00:12:40,830
So, I order the poison.
316
00:12:40,870 --> 00:12:42,350
So, I order the poison.
317
00:12:54,090 --> 00:12:56,090
This programme contains
detailed discussions
about suicide and mental health
318
00:12:56,130 --> 00:12:58,130
This programme contains
detailed discussions
about suicide and mental health
319
00:12:58,170 --> 00:12:59,770
This programme contains
detailed discussions
about suicide and mental health
320
00:13:02,650 --> 00:13:04,650
It wasn't long,
probably a few days
321
00:13:04,690 --> 00:13:05,690
It wasn't long,
probably a few days
322
00:13:05,730 --> 00:13:07,730
after I bought the poison online,
323
00:13:07,770 --> 00:13:08,490
after I bought the poison online,
324
00:13:08,530 --> 00:13:10,530
I get it in the post.
325
00:13:10,570 --> 00:13:10,730
I get it in the post.
326
00:13:12,530 --> 00:13:14,530
A relatively small package,
it's been through customs.
327
00:13:14,570 --> 00:13:15,690
A relatively small package,
it's been through customs.
328
00:13:15,730 --> 00:13:17,730
Just seemed to indicate that this
was a well-oiled machine.
329
00:13:17,770 --> 00:13:19,770
Just seemed to indicate that this
was a well-oiled machine.
330
00:13:19,810 --> 00:13:20,090
Just seemed to indicate that this
was a well-oiled machine.
331
00:13:20,130 --> 00:13:22,130
This was something that was being
done at a considerable scale.
332
00:13:22,170 --> 00:13:23,730
This was something that was being
done at a considerable scale.
333
00:13:30,130 --> 00:13:32,130
It still astonishes me
that it's that easy
334
00:13:32,170 --> 00:13:33,890
It still astonishes me
that it's that easy
335
00:13:33,930 --> 00:13:35,930
to get hold of this poison.
336
00:13:35,970 --> 00:13:36,330
to get hold of this poison.
337
00:13:41,330 --> 00:13:43,330
One of the challenges
with our poisons law
338
00:13:43,370 --> 00:13:45,290
One of the challenges
with our poisons law
339
00:13:45,330 --> 00:13:47,330
is it doesn't really cater
for international trade.
340
00:13:47,370 --> 00:13:49,330
is it doesn't really cater
for international trade.
341
00:13:49,370 --> 00:13:51,370
There's no effective regulation
if you buy something that is
342
00:13:51,410 --> 00:13:53,250
There's no effective regulation
if you buy something that is
343
00:13:53,290 --> 00:13:55,290
a reportable substance in
the UK from abroad,
344
00:13:55,330 --> 00:13:56,250
a reportable substance in
the UK from abroad,
345
00:13:56,290 --> 00:13:58,290
you effectively bypass those...
..those laws.
346
00:13:58,330 --> 00:13:59,130
you effectively bypass those...
..those laws.
347
00:14:01,610 --> 00:14:03,610
I wanted to shout it from
the rooftops, you know,
348
00:14:03,650 --> 00:14:04,170
I wanted to shout it from
the rooftops, you know,
349
00:14:04,210 --> 00:14:06,210
that there's a problem here that
needs to be stopped.
350
00:14:06,250 --> 00:14:07,170
that there's a problem here that
needs to be stopped.
351
00:14:07,210 --> 00:14:09,210
I could not persuade
the police force investigating
352
00:14:09,250 --> 00:14:09,650
I could not persuade
the police force investigating
353
00:14:09,690 --> 00:14:11,690
Tom's death that it looked
to me like a bigger problem.
354
00:14:11,730 --> 00:14:13,730
Tom's death that it looked
to me like a bigger problem.
355
00:14:13,770 --> 00:14:14,050
Tom's death that it looked
to me like a bigger problem.
356
00:14:14,090 --> 00:14:16,090
They weren't interested in seeing
this as more than just
357
00:14:16,130 --> 00:14:16,370
They weren't interested in seeing
this as more than just
358
00:14:16,410 --> 00:14:18,410
an individual taking his own life.
359
00:14:18,450 --> 00:14:19,250
an individual taking his own life.
360
00:14:19,290 --> 00:14:21,090
PHONE PAD BEEPS
361
00:14:21,130 --> 00:14:23,130
I had run out of options.
362
00:14:23,170 --> 00:14:25,170
I had run out of options.
363
00:14:25,210 --> 00:14:25,410
I had run out of options.
364
00:14:25,450 --> 00:14:27,330
I had nowhere left to turn.
365
00:14:27,370 --> 00:14:29,130
LINE RINGS
366
00:14:29,170 --> 00:14:31,170
My last chance was to go to
the newspapers.
367
00:14:31,210 --> 00:14:32,330
My last chance was to go to
the newspapers.
368
00:14:36,970 --> 00:14:38,810
Thanks for calling me, David.
369
00:14:38,850 --> 00:14:40,850
I'd definitely be interested in
taking a look at this.
370
00:14:40,890 --> 00:14:41,810
I'd definitely be interested in
taking a look at this.
371
00:14:41,850 --> 00:14:43,850
Would you mind talking me through
what's...what's happened?
372
00:14:43,890 --> 00:14:44,890
Would you mind talking me through
what's...what's happened?
373
00:14:44,930 --> 00:14:46,930
I'm just... I'm just really...
374
00:14:46,970 --> 00:14:47,250
I'm just... I'm just really...
375
00:14:47,290 --> 00:14:49,290
Let's call it surprised that,
you know,
376
00:14:49,330 --> 00:14:49,730
Let's call it surprised that,
you know,
377
00:14:49,770 --> 00:14:51,770
the police have known since
they found Tom's body
378
00:14:51,810 --> 00:14:52,650
the police have known since
they found Tom's body
379
00:14:52,690 --> 00:14:54,690
where he bought this from.
Yeah.
380
00:14:54,730 --> 00:14:55,010
where he bought this from.
Yeah.
381
00:14:55,050 --> 00:14:57,050
But nobody is doing anything
about trying...
382
00:14:57,090 --> 00:14:58,250
But nobody is doing anything
about trying...
383
00:14:58,290 --> 00:15:00,290
As a journalist, you cover
so many different stories.
384
00:15:00,330 --> 00:15:00,730
As a journalist, you cover
so many different stories.
385
00:15:00,770 --> 00:15:02,810
Politics one minute, crime the next.
386
00:15:02,850 --> 00:15:04,850
{\an8}You can definitely make
a difference,
387
00:15:04,890 --> 00:15:05,170
{\an8}You can definitely make
a difference,
388
00:15:05,210 --> 00:15:07,210
{\an8}shining light on things that are not
widely known about.
389
00:15:07,250 --> 00:15:08,810
{\an8}shining light on things that are not
widely known about.
390
00:15:08,850 --> 00:15:10,290
DISTANT SIREN BLARES
391
00:15:15,330 --> 00:15:17,330
Definitely one of the
frustrations with the UK police,
392
00:15:17,370 --> 00:15:17,730
Definitely one of the
frustrations with the UK police,
393
00:15:17,770 --> 00:15:19,770
they just weren't interested
in following up on this.
394
00:15:19,810 --> 00:15:21,090
they just weren't interested
in following up on this.
395
00:15:21,130 --> 00:15:23,130
You know, there weren't interesting
in highlighting this
396
00:15:23,170 --> 00:15:23,810
You know, there weren't interesting
in highlighting this
397
00:15:23,850 --> 00:15:25,850
as any chance of a criminal case,
where, as you know, there's -
398
00:15:25,890 --> 00:15:27,450
as any chance of a criminal case,
where, as you know, there's -
399
00:15:27,490 --> 00:15:29,490
it's an offence to assist
with a suicide.
400
00:15:29,530 --> 00:15:30,370
it's an offence to assist
with a suicide.
401
00:15:30,410 --> 00:15:32,410
Mental health is a real pressing
subject for a lot of people.
402
00:15:32,450 --> 00:15:33,810
Mental health is a real pressing
subject for a lot of people.
403
00:15:33,850 --> 00:15:35,850
So, I think it's hugely relevant
to talk about suicide.
404
00:15:35,890 --> 00:15:37,890
So, I think it's hugely relevant
to talk about suicide.
405
00:15:37,930 --> 00:15:38,570
So, I think it's hugely relevant
to talk about suicide.
406
00:15:38,610 --> 00:15:40,610
When I was speaking to David,
I couldn't understand
407
00:15:40,650 --> 00:15:41,570
When I was speaking to David,
I couldn't understand
408
00:15:41,610 --> 00:15:43,610
why the police weren't
investigating.
409
00:15:43,650 --> 00:15:44,410
why the police weren't
investigating.
410
00:15:44,450 --> 00:15:46,450
It was his belief that
the website selling the poison
411
00:15:46,490 --> 00:15:47,090
It was his belief that
the website selling the poison
412
00:15:47,130 --> 00:15:49,130
knew it was selling to a person
that was suicidal,
413
00:15:49,170 --> 00:15:50,570
knew it was selling to a person
that was suicidal,
414
00:15:50,610 --> 00:15:52,610
and it is illegal to assist suicide.
415
00:15:52,650 --> 00:15:52,810
and it is illegal to assist suicide.
416
00:15:56,770 --> 00:15:58,770
I felt that there was the chance
to expose something
417
00:15:58,810 --> 00:15:59,090
I felt that there was the chance
to expose something
418
00:15:59,130 --> 00:16:01,130
going on here that hadn't been
noticed before.
419
00:16:01,170 --> 00:16:02,050
going on here that hadn't been
noticed before.
420
00:16:05,730 --> 00:16:07,730
There was a pressure to cut to
the heart of the whole story
421
00:16:07,770 --> 00:16:08,450
There was a pressure to cut to
the heart of the whole story
422
00:16:08,490 --> 00:16:10,490
and find out what was going on.
423
00:16:10,530 --> 00:16:10,690
and find out what was going on.
424
00:16:15,530 --> 00:16:17,530
After the call with David,
425
00:16:17,570 --> 00:16:17,810
After the call with David,
426
00:16:17,850 --> 00:16:19,850
I went straight onto
imtimecuisine.com.
427
00:16:19,890 --> 00:16:20,730
I went straight onto
imtimecuisine.com.
428
00:16:22,730 --> 00:16:24,730
The first thing you see is
a plate of cold meats.
429
00:16:24,770 --> 00:16:26,050
The first thing you see is
a plate of cold meats.
430
00:16:26,090 --> 00:16:28,090
And if you scroll down on
the website,
431
00:16:28,130 --> 00:16:28,410
And if you scroll down on
the website,
432
00:16:28,450 --> 00:16:30,450
it appeared to be selling products
that you might use around the home.
433
00:16:30,490 --> 00:16:32,130
it appeared to be selling products
that you might use around the home.
434
00:16:32,170 --> 00:16:34,170
Liquid food flavouring, salts,
435
00:16:34,210 --> 00:16:35,610
Liquid food flavouring, salts,
436
00:16:35,650 --> 00:16:37,650
and then nestled among them
was the poison.
437
00:16:37,690 --> 00:16:38,210
and then nestled among them
was the poison.
438
00:16:42,410 --> 00:16:44,410
The website had painted a picture,
a facade, if you like,
439
00:16:44,450 --> 00:16:46,210
The website had painted a picture,
a facade, if you like,
440
00:16:46,250 --> 00:16:48,250
of respectability.
441
00:16:48,290 --> 00:16:48,530
of respectability.
442
00:16:48,570 --> 00:16:50,570
It looked like someone was
perhaps trying to cover up
443
00:16:50,610 --> 00:16:50,850
It looked like someone was
perhaps trying to cover up
444
00:16:50,890 --> 00:16:52,410
its true purpose.
445
00:16:53,570 --> 00:16:55,570
So, I wanted to find out
who was behind it,
446
00:16:55,610 --> 00:16:56,290
So, I wanted to find out
who was behind it,
447
00:16:56,330 --> 00:16:58,330
who ran it and what
exactly was going on.
448
00:16:58,370 --> 00:16:59,810
who ran it and what
exactly was going on.
449
00:17:21,490 --> 00:17:23,490
The police thought that Miles had
taken an accidental overdose.
450
00:17:23,530 --> 00:17:24,850
The police thought that Miles had
taken an accidental overdose.
451
00:17:24,890 --> 00:17:26,890
You know, that didn't quite
sit right with us
452
00:17:26,930 --> 00:17:27,530
You know, that didn't quite
sit right with us
453
00:17:27,570 --> 00:17:29,570
and so we were just trying to get
an idea of what his finals days
454
00:17:29,610 --> 00:17:31,610
and so we were just trying to get
an idea of what his finals days
455
00:17:31,650 --> 00:17:31,890
and so we were just trying to get
an idea of what his finals days
456
00:17:31,930 --> 00:17:33,930
and final weeks had looked like.
457
00:17:33,970 --> 00:17:34,210
and final weeks had looked like.
458
00:17:34,250 --> 00:17:36,250
Yeah. And we'd started looking
through his computer and his phone.
459
00:17:36,290 --> 00:17:38,170
Yeah. And we'd started looking
through his computer and his phone.
460
00:17:38,210 --> 00:17:40,210
And we had discovered that he was,
um,
461
00:17:40,250 --> 00:17:40,610
And we had discovered that he was,
um,
462
00:17:40,650 --> 00:17:42,650
very, very active on
a suicide forum.
463
00:17:42,690 --> 00:17:43,610
very, very active on
a suicide forum.
464
00:17:48,010 --> 00:17:50,010
We started to do searches.
465
00:17:50,050 --> 00:17:50,290
We started to do searches.
466
00:17:50,330 --> 00:17:52,330
Just everything that we
could find out
467
00:17:52,370 --> 00:17:52,610
Just everything that we
could find out
468
00:17:52,650 --> 00:17:54,650
at the time about this forum.
469
00:17:54,690 --> 00:17:54,850
at the time about this forum.
470
00:17:56,010 --> 00:17:58,010
There's a lot of talk about
people becoming addicted
471
00:17:58,050 --> 00:17:59,570
There's a lot of talk about
people becoming addicted
472
00:17:59,610 --> 00:18:01,610
to that site, and he was very
welcomed in that forum.
473
00:18:01,650 --> 00:18:03,650
to that site, and he was very
welcomed in that forum.
474
00:18:03,690 --> 00:18:04,330
to that site, and he was very
welcomed in that forum.
475
00:18:12,570 --> 00:18:14,570
Miles was my first-born son.
476
00:18:14,610 --> 00:18:16,130
Miles was my first-born son.
477
00:18:16,170 --> 00:18:18,170
We had Malyn about 18 months
later and,
478
00:18:18,210 --> 00:18:20,010
We had Malyn about 18 months
later and,
479
00:18:20,050 --> 00:18:22,050
just had a great childhood growing,
happy and fun.
480
00:18:22,090 --> 00:18:24,090
just had a great childhood growing,
happy and fun.
481
00:18:24,130 --> 00:18:24,410
just had a great childhood growing,
happy and fun.
482
00:18:24,450 --> 00:18:26,450
I always looked up to my older
brother cos he was...
483
00:18:26,490 --> 00:18:27,530
I always looked up to my older
brother cos he was...
484
00:18:27,570 --> 00:18:29,490
He was just so good at everything,
you know?
485
00:18:29,530 --> 00:18:31,530
He was brilliant and,
talented and...
486
00:18:31,570 --> 00:18:33,410
He was brilliant and,
talented and...
487
00:18:34,530 --> 00:18:36,530
HER VOICE BREAKS
Um...
488
00:18:36,570 --> 00:18:36,810
HER VOICE BREAKS
Um...
489
00:18:36,850 --> 00:18:38,130
Yeah.
490
00:18:40,490 --> 00:18:42,490
And then...
491
00:18:42,530 --> 00:18:42,770
And then...
492
00:18:42,810 --> 00:18:44,810
SHE CRIES
Excuse me.
493
00:18:44,850 --> 00:18:45,050
SHE CRIES
Excuse me.
494
00:18:46,850 --> 00:18:48,850
As a mother, you don't want
to see your kids hurt.
495
00:18:48,890 --> 00:18:49,650
As a mother, you don't want
to see your kids hurt.
496
00:18:51,090 --> 00:18:52,690
And so...
497
00:18:54,210 --> 00:18:56,210
You want to try to do everything you
can to help them
498
00:18:56,250 --> 00:18:57,850
You want to try to do everything you
can to help them
499
00:18:57,890 --> 00:18:59,890
and I wasn't able to do that.
500
00:18:59,930 --> 00:19:00,370
and I wasn't able to do that.
501
00:19:04,690 --> 00:19:06,170
SHE SIGHS
502
00:19:08,050 --> 00:19:09,410
So...
503
00:19:10,850 --> 00:19:12,850
When I began to realise people
in a mental health crisis,
504
00:19:12,890 --> 00:19:14,890
When I began to realise people
in a mental health crisis,
505
00:19:14,930 --> 00:19:16,290
When I began to realise people
in a mental health crisis,
506
00:19:16,330 --> 00:19:18,330
like Miles, had access
to that forum,
507
00:19:18,370 --> 00:19:20,330
like Miles, had access
to that forum,
508
00:19:20,370 --> 00:19:22,210
you feel so bad for them.
509
00:19:22,250 --> 00:19:24,250
You're trying to figure out
a way to stop it.
510
00:19:24,290 --> 00:19:25,770
You're trying to figure out
a way to stop it.
511
00:19:27,730 --> 00:19:29,730
My mother was quite adamant to help
people that were on that site.
512
00:19:29,770 --> 00:19:31,770
My mother was quite adamant to help
people that were on that site.
513
00:19:31,810 --> 00:19:32,450
My mother was quite adamant to help
people that were on that site.
514
00:19:32,490 --> 00:19:34,490
I was in the military
for about 12 years.
515
00:19:34,530 --> 00:19:35,730
I was in the military
for about 12 years.
516
00:19:35,770 --> 00:19:37,770
Became a counterintelligence agent.
517
00:19:37,810 --> 00:19:38,650
Became a counterintelligence agent.
518
00:19:38,690 --> 00:19:40,690
I have a bachelor's degree in
intelligence and security studies
519
00:19:40,730 --> 00:19:42,210
I have a bachelor's degree in
intelligence and security studies
520
00:19:42,250 --> 00:19:44,250
and then I took a few courses
in digital forensics.
521
00:19:44,290 --> 00:19:46,290
and then I took a few courses
in digital forensics.
522
00:19:46,330 --> 00:19:48,330
And so, my mother had reached out
to me one day and asked me
523
00:19:48,370 --> 00:19:50,370
And so, my mother had reached out
to me one day and asked me
524
00:19:50,410 --> 00:19:50,690
And so, my mother had reached out
to me one day and asked me
525
00:19:50,730 --> 00:19:52,730
to look into where to find
the poison, basically.
526
00:19:52,770 --> 00:19:54,210
to look into where to find
the poison, basically.
527
00:19:54,250 --> 00:19:56,250
And so, I posted on the site.
528
00:19:56,290 --> 00:19:56,570
And so, I posted on the site.
529
00:19:59,210 --> 00:20:01,210
I remember it was
a Saturday morning,
530
00:20:01,250 --> 00:20:01,890
I remember it was
a Saturday morning,
531
00:20:01,930 --> 00:20:03,930
and I had received
a message back from
532
00:20:03,970 --> 00:20:04,650
and I had received
a message back from
533
00:20:04,690 --> 00:20:06,690
a user called Greenberg.
534
00:20:06,730 --> 00:20:07,770
a user called Greenberg.
535
00:20:07,810 --> 00:20:09,810
He had a picture of a white dog
536
00:20:09,850 --> 00:20:10,890
He had a picture of a white dog
537
00:20:10,930 --> 00:20:12,930
and a short bio that kind
of explained how he was
538
00:20:12,970 --> 00:20:14,970
and a short bio that kind
of explained how he was
539
00:20:15,010 --> 00:20:15,650
and a short bio that kind
of explained how he was
540
00:20:15,690 --> 00:20:17,690
a retired pathologist,
based in New York.
541
00:20:17,730 --> 00:20:18,490
a retired pathologist,
based in New York.
542
00:20:19,650 --> 00:20:21,650
I had seen the name on
the site often.
543
00:20:21,690 --> 00:20:23,530
I had seen the name on
the site often.
544
00:20:23,570 --> 00:20:25,570
Kind of one of those users that you
would see posting very regularly.
545
00:20:25,610 --> 00:20:27,610
Kind of one of those users that you
would see posting very regularly.
546
00:20:27,650 --> 00:20:27,890
Kind of one of those users that you
would see posting very regularly.
547
00:20:30,010 --> 00:20:32,010
And he merely messaged me
the name imtimecuisine.com.
548
00:20:32,050 --> 00:20:34,050
And he merely messaged me
the name imtimecuisine.com.
549
00:20:34,090 --> 00:20:34,930
And he merely messaged me
the name imtimecuisine.com.
550
00:20:41,170 --> 00:20:43,170
It just appeared to be a site that
sold food service products.
551
00:20:43,210 --> 00:20:45,210
It just appeared to be a site that
sold food service products.
552
00:20:45,250 --> 00:20:45,810
It just appeared to be a site that
sold food service products.
553
00:20:45,850 --> 00:20:47,730
Salts and things like that.
554
00:20:47,770 --> 00:20:49,770
Like a restaurant supply company.
555
00:20:49,810 --> 00:20:50,330
Like a restaurant supply company.
556
00:20:50,370 --> 00:20:52,250
Yes.
557
00:20:52,290 --> 00:20:54,290
My brother,
he didn't get it from IC.
558
00:20:54,330 --> 00:20:55,410
My brother,
he didn't get it from IC.
559
00:20:55,450 --> 00:20:57,450
But I decided maybe I should
look at this a little bit further.
560
00:20:57,490 --> 00:20:58,410
But I decided maybe I should
look at this a little bit further.
561
00:21:01,370 --> 00:21:03,370
And I scrolled down to see their
products and, lo and behold,
562
00:21:03,410 --> 00:21:05,410
And I scrolled down to see their
products and, lo and behold,
563
00:21:05,450 --> 00:21:05,770
And I scrolled down to see their
products and, lo and behold,
564
00:21:05,810 --> 00:21:07,810
they had products being displayed,
565
00:21:07,850 --> 00:21:08,690
they had products being displayed,
566
00:21:08,730 --> 00:21:10,730
but they were either salt
that $10,000 -
567
00:21:10,770 --> 00:21:12,770
but they were either salt
that $10,000 -
568
00:21:12,810 --> 00:21:13,170
but they were either salt
that $10,000 -
569
00:21:13,210 --> 00:21:15,210
salt that I had in my pantry -
that was $10,000
570
00:21:15,250 --> 00:21:17,250
salt that I had in my pantry -
that was $10,000
571
00:21:17,290 --> 00:21:17,570
salt that I had in my pantry -
that was $10,000
572
00:21:17,610 --> 00:21:19,610
or other products
that were sold out.
573
00:21:19,650 --> 00:21:21,210
or other products
that were sold out.
574
00:21:21,250 --> 00:21:23,250
The only thing available for sale
for $59 plus shipping
575
00:21:23,290 --> 00:21:25,290
The only thing available for sale
for $59 plus shipping
576
00:21:25,330 --> 00:21:25,690
The only thing available for sale
for $59 plus shipping
577
00:21:25,730 --> 00:21:27,290
was the poison.
578
00:21:28,610 --> 00:21:30,610
And I thought, that is strange.
579
00:21:30,650 --> 00:21:31,210
And I thought, that is strange.
580
00:21:31,250 --> 00:21:33,250
And further to that,
there's no other use
581
00:21:33,290 --> 00:21:34,130
And further to that,
there's no other use
582
00:21:34,170 --> 00:21:36,170
for that chemical at that potency
and I said, you know,
583
00:21:36,210 --> 00:21:37,690
for that chemical at that potency
and I said, you know,
584
00:21:37,730 --> 00:21:39,730
"I think there's something more here
that needs to be looked at."
585
00:21:39,770 --> 00:21:41,130
"I think there's something more here
that needs to be looked at."
586
00:21:42,530 --> 00:21:44,530
I remember messaging back and forth
with my mum saying,
587
00:21:44,570 --> 00:21:45,370
I remember messaging back and forth
with my mum saying,
588
00:21:45,410 --> 00:21:47,410
"This is definitely a front site.
589
00:21:47,450 --> 00:21:47,610
"This is definitely a front site.
590
00:21:48,610 --> 00:21:50,610
"This person's providing suicide
methods
591
00:21:50,650 --> 00:21:51,650
"This person's providing suicide
methods
592
00:21:51,690 --> 00:21:53,690
"that are favoured by the forum."
593
00:21:53,730 --> 00:21:53,890
"that are favoured by the forum."
594
00:21:55,130 --> 00:21:57,130
And then Greenberg is
advertising the site
595
00:21:57,170 --> 00:21:58,210
And then Greenberg is
advertising the site
596
00:21:58,250 --> 00:22:00,250
and shuttling people over
to this store front.
597
00:22:00,290 --> 00:22:02,010
and shuttling people over
to this store front.
598
00:22:03,930 --> 00:22:05,930
It just opens up this whole
world of what seems to be
599
00:22:05,970 --> 00:22:07,970
It just opens up this whole
world of what seems to be
600
00:22:08,010 --> 00:22:08,290
It just opens up this whole
world of what seems to be
601
00:22:08,330 --> 00:22:10,330
black market selling for methods
to commit suicide.
602
00:22:10,370 --> 00:22:12,370
black market selling for methods
to commit suicide.
603
00:22:12,410 --> 00:22:12,610
black market selling for methods
to commit suicide.
604
00:22:17,530 --> 00:22:19,530
The crucial element in this
story was who exactly was
605
00:22:19,570 --> 00:22:20,530
The crucial element in this
story was who exactly was
606
00:22:20,570 --> 00:22:22,570
the person behind this website?
607
00:22:22,610 --> 00:22:22,770
the person behind this website?
608
00:22:24,610 --> 00:22:26,610
Under the contact information,
609
00:22:26,650 --> 00:22:28,650
there was a PO Box address
in Canada,
610
00:22:28,690 --> 00:22:29,890
there was a PO Box address
in Canada,
611
00:22:29,930 --> 00:22:31,930
located in a city called
Mississauga...
612
00:22:31,970 --> 00:22:32,610
located in a city called
Mississauga...
613
00:22:34,450 --> 00:22:36,450
..about 45 mins west of Toronto.
614
00:22:36,490 --> 00:22:38,090
..about 45 mins west of Toronto.
615
00:22:39,210 --> 00:22:41,210
There was also the phone number
616
00:22:41,250 --> 00:22:41,810
There was also the phone number
617
00:22:41,850 --> 00:22:43,850
and an email address -
klaw@outlook com.
618
00:22:43,890 --> 00:22:45,890
and an email address -
klaw@outlook com.
619
00:22:45,930 --> 00:22:46,370
and an email address -
klaw@outlook com.
620
00:22:46,410 --> 00:22:48,410
I Googled that and then I clicked on
two further websites that came up.
621
00:22:48,450 --> 00:22:50,450
I Googled that and then I clicked on
two further websites that came up.
622
00:22:50,490 --> 00:22:50,770
I Googled that and then I clicked on
two further websites that came up.
623
00:22:50,810 --> 00:22:52,810
There was ambuca.com.
624
00:22:52,850 --> 00:22:53,010
There was ambuca.com.
625
00:22:55,570 --> 00:22:57,130
And escmode.com.
626
00:22:58,650 --> 00:23:00,650
These two websites were definitely
more explicit in their content
627
00:23:00,690 --> 00:23:02,690
These two websites were definitely
more explicit in their content
628
00:23:02,730 --> 00:23:03,010
These two websites were definitely
more explicit in their content
629
00:23:03,050 --> 00:23:05,050
and quite clearly selling goods for
the purposes of suicide.
630
00:23:05,090 --> 00:23:07,090
and quite clearly selling goods for
the purposes of suicide.
631
00:23:07,130 --> 00:23:07,330
and quite clearly selling goods for
the purposes of suicide.
632
00:23:10,770 --> 00:23:12,770
There were testimonials on
EscMode saying that
633
00:23:12,810 --> 00:23:13,810
There were testimonials on
EscMode saying that
634
00:23:13,850 --> 00:23:15,850
the products were expensive
but it was probably
635
00:23:15,890 --> 00:23:16,290
the products were expensive
but it was probably
636
00:23:16,330 --> 00:23:18,330
the last $1,000 they would
ever spend.
637
00:23:18,370 --> 00:23:19,010
the last $1,000 they would
ever spend.
638
00:23:20,810 --> 00:23:22,810
It was shocking to see that a
website like this could operate
639
00:23:22,850 --> 00:23:23,450
It was shocking to see that a
website like this could operate
640
00:23:23,490 --> 00:23:25,210
under the radar.
641
00:23:27,050 --> 00:23:29,050
On both websites, the PO Box address
and the contact details
642
00:23:29,090 --> 00:23:31,090
On both websites, the PO Box address
and the contact details
643
00:23:31,130 --> 00:23:33,130
were the same -
klaw@outlook com.
644
00:23:33,170 --> 00:23:34,130
were the same -
klaw@outlook com.
645
00:23:36,450 --> 00:23:38,450
And on EscMode was
the name Kenneth M Law.
646
00:23:38,490 --> 00:23:40,490
And on EscMode was
the name Kenneth M Law.
647
00:23:40,530 --> 00:23:41,050
And on EscMode was
the name Kenneth M Law.
648
00:23:46,250 --> 00:23:48,250
I Googled his name and
immediately up popped a CV
649
00:23:48,290 --> 00:23:50,290
I Googled his name and
immediately up popped a CV
650
00:23:50,330 --> 00:23:50,610
I Googled his name and
immediately up popped a CV
651
00:23:50,650 --> 00:23:52,650
of a Kenneth M Law,
dated from 2005.
652
00:23:52,690 --> 00:23:54,010
of a Kenneth M Law,
dated from 2005.
653
00:23:54,050 --> 00:23:56,050
And then at the bottom of
the website there was
654
00:23:56,090 --> 00:23:56,330
And then at the bottom of
the website there was
655
00:23:56,370 --> 00:23:58,290
a picture of Kenneth Law himself.
656
00:24:01,810 --> 00:24:03,810
Dressed up in a tuxedo,
657
00:24:03,850 --> 00:24:04,050
Dressed up in a tuxedo,
658
00:24:04,090 --> 00:24:06,090
smiling at the camera.
659
00:24:06,130 --> 00:24:06,410
smiling at the camera.
660
00:24:06,450 --> 00:24:08,450
Doing this job for
a number of years,
661
00:24:08,490 --> 00:24:09,250
Doing this job for
a number of years,
662
00:24:09,290 --> 00:24:11,290
you become quite sceptical
about things, quite cynical.
663
00:24:11,330 --> 00:24:13,330
you become quite sceptical
about things, quite cynical.
664
00:24:13,370 --> 00:24:13,810
you become quite sceptical
about things, quite cynical.
665
00:24:13,850 --> 00:24:15,850
I had no doubts that there was
somebody called Kenneth Law
666
00:24:15,890 --> 00:24:17,890
I had no doubts that there was
somebody called Kenneth Law
667
00:24:17,930 --> 00:24:18,570
I had no doubts that there was
somebody called Kenneth Law
668
00:24:18,610 --> 00:24:20,610
living in Ontaria.
669
00:24:20,650 --> 00:24:20,890
living in Ontaria.
670
00:24:20,930 --> 00:24:22,930
But would somebody really be
as brazen or foolish
671
00:24:22,970 --> 00:24:24,970
But would somebody really be
as brazen or foolish
672
00:24:25,010 --> 00:24:25,410
But would somebody really be
as brazen or foolish
673
00:24:25,450 --> 00:24:27,450
to use their real name on a website
674
00:24:27,490 --> 00:24:27,770
to use their real name on a website
675
00:24:27,810 --> 00:24:29,810
that may well be
conducting criminality?
676
00:24:29,850 --> 00:24:30,650
that may well be
conducting criminality?
677
00:24:36,641 --> 00:24:38,641
This programme contains
detailed discussions
about suicide and mental health
678
00:24:38,681 --> 00:24:40,681
This programme contains
detailed discussions
about suicide and mental health
679
00:24:40,721 --> 00:24:41,241
This programme contains
detailed discussions
about suicide and mental health
680
00:24:46,441 --> 00:24:48,321
I'd kind of gone down
the rabbit hole at this point.
681
00:24:48,361 --> 00:24:50,361
I knew that David's son, Tom,
purchased poison
682
00:24:50,401 --> 00:24:52,401
I knew that David's son, Tom,
purchased poison
683
00:24:52,441 --> 00:24:52,921
I knew that David's son, Tom,
purchased poison
684
00:24:52,961 --> 00:24:54,961
from a seller in Canada
calling himself Kenneth Law.
685
00:24:55,001 --> 00:24:56,281
from a seller in Canada
calling himself Kenneth Law.
686
00:25:07,481 --> 00:25:09,481
I was looking for any information
about him.
687
00:25:09,521 --> 00:25:11,521
I was looking for any information
about him.
688
00:25:11,561 --> 00:25:11,961
I was looking for any information
about him.
689
00:25:12,001 --> 00:25:14,001
Where he might live...
690
00:25:14,041 --> 00:25:14,201
Where he might live...
691
00:25:17,401 --> 00:25:19,401
..what he might be up to
other than these websites.
692
00:25:19,441 --> 00:25:21,201
..what he might be up to
other than these websites.
693
00:25:23,081 --> 00:25:25,081
Who was Kenneth Law?
694
00:25:25,121 --> 00:25:25,561
Who was Kenneth Law?
695
00:25:25,601 --> 00:25:27,601
I discovered quite an old CV.
It was dated from 2005.
696
00:25:27,641 --> 00:25:29,001
I discovered quite an old CV.
It was dated from 2005.
697
00:25:30,921 --> 00:25:32,921
He was pretty well qualified
in the engineering field.
698
00:25:32,961 --> 00:25:34,761
He was pretty well qualified
in the engineering field.
699
00:25:34,801 --> 00:25:36,801
He had had several stints
of employment at big companies,
700
00:25:36,841 --> 00:25:38,401
He had had several stints
of employment at big companies,
701
00:25:38,441 --> 00:25:40,441
including an aerospace company
called Dunlop in the Midlands
702
00:25:40,481 --> 00:25:42,481
including an aerospace company
called Dunlop in the Midlands
703
00:25:42,521 --> 00:25:42,761
including an aerospace company
called Dunlop in the Midlands
704
00:25:42,801 --> 00:25:44,281
in the UK.
705
00:25:46,721 --> 00:25:48,721
When I did social media searches
706
00:25:48,761 --> 00:25:50,041
When I did social media searches
707
00:25:50,081 --> 00:25:52,081
I found the same picture
as on the CV,
708
00:25:52,121 --> 00:25:53,721
I found the same picture
as on the CV,
709
00:25:53,761 --> 00:25:55,761
on a Facebook profile
for a Kenneth Law in Canada.
710
00:25:55,801 --> 00:25:57,801
on a Facebook profile
for a Kenneth Law in Canada.
711
00:25:57,841 --> 00:25:58,161
on a Facebook profile
for a Kenneth Law in Canada.
712
00:25:58,201 --> 00:26:00,201
He didn't have many public posts.
713
00:26:00,241 --> 00:26:02,241
He didn't have many public posts.
714
00:26:02,281 --> 00:26:02,761
He didn't have many public posts.
715
00:26:02,801 --> 00:26:04,801
There was one strange post
about erotic art,
716
00:26:04,841 --> 00:26:06,841
There was one strange post
about erotic art,
717
00:26:06,881 --> 00:26:07,361
There was one strange post
about erotic art,
718
00:26:07,401 --> 00:26:09,401
and there were other posts
about the TV show Star Trek.
719
00:26:09,441 --> 00:26:11,441
and there were other posts
about the TV show Star Trek.
720
00:26:11,481 --> 00:26:12,441
and there were other posts
about the TV show Star Trek.
721
00:26:12,481 --> 00:26:14,481
A large percentage
of his Facebook friends appeared
722
00:26:14,521 --> 00:26:15,721
A large percentage
of his Facebook friends appeared
723
00:26:15,761 --> 00:26:17,761
to work at the Fairmont
Royal York Hotel,
724
00:26:17,801 --> 00:26:19,681
to work at the Fairmont
Royal York Hotel,
725
00:26:19,721 --> 00:26:21,721
a five-star hotel
in downtown Toronto.
726
00:26:21,761 --> 00:26:23,241
a five-star hotel
in downtown Toronto.
727
00:26:23,281 --> 00:26:25,281
I guessed that he
either worked there,
728
00:26:25,321 --> 00:26:25,801
I guessed that he
either worked there,
729
00:26:25,841 --> 00:26:27,841
or had worked there
at some stage.
730
00:26:27,881 --> 00:26:28,081
or had worked there
at some stage.
731
00:26:32,921 --> 00:26:34,921
I was beginning to piece together
who this person was.
732
00:26:34,961 --> 00:26:36,961
I was beginning to piece together
who this person was.
733
00:26:37,001 --> 00:26:37,281
I was beginning to piece together
who this person was.
734
00:26:37,321 --> 00:26:39,321
I needed to find out,
what was the scale of his business,
735
00:26:39,361 --> 00:26:41,081
I needed to find out,
what was the scale of his business,
736
00:26:41,121 --> 00:26:43,121
how many people had he sold
this stuff to?
737
00:26:43,161 --> 00:26:45,161
how many people had he sold
this stuff to?
738
00:26:45,201 --> 00:26:46,241
how many people had he sold
this stuff to?
739
00:26:46,281 --> 00:26:48,281
There was enough information
in front of me to try
740
00:26:48,321 --> 00:26:50,241
There was enough information
in front of me to try
741
00:26:50,281 --> 00:26:52,281
and conduct a full investigation
around this website
742
00:26:52,321 --> 00:26:54,241
and conduct a full investigation
around this website
743
00:26:54,281 --> 00:26:56,201
and this substance.
744
00:26:56,241 --> 00:26:58,241
But we needed to be
extremely careful
745
00:26:58,281 --> 00:26:59,041
But we needed to be
extremely careful
746
00:26:59,081 --> 00:27:01,081
because we knew
it was so sensitive.
747
00:27:01,121 --> 00:27:01,321
because we knew
it was so sensitive.
748
00:27:06,321 --> 00:27:08,321
Can you click on one of those?
749
00:27:08,361 --> 00:27:08,641
Can you click on one of those?
750
00:27:10,481 --> 00:27:12,481
Yes. Here's a post from someone
751
00:27:12,521 --> 00:27:12,921
Yes. Here's a post from someone
752
00:27:12,961 --> 00:27:14,961
who's asking whether or not
they should use the poison
753
00:27:15,001 --> 00:27:16,521
who's asking whether or not
they should use the poison
754
00:27:16,561 --> 00:27:18,561
to commit suicide.
755
00:27:18,601 --> 00:27:19,241
to commit suicide.
756
00:27:19,281 --> 00:27:21,281
After Miles had died, we were
on the forum often.
757
00:27:21,321 --> 00:27:22,841
After Miles had died, we were
on the forum often.
758
00:27:22,881 --> 00:27:24,881
Day after day, hour after hour,
759
00:27:24,921 --> 00:27:25,161
Day after day, hour after hour,
760
00:27:25,201 --> 00:27:27,201
you would see goodbye posts
of people who just,
761
00:27:27,241 --> 00:27:28,241
you would see goodbye posts
of people who just,
762
00:27:28,281 --> 00:27:30,281
they aren't getting
the help that they need.
763
00:27:30,321 --> 00:27:30,881
they aren't getting
the help that they need.
764
00:27:46,601 --> 00:27:48,601
I do believe that people
should have the right
765
00:27:48,641 --> 00:27:49,921
I do believe that people
should have the right
766
00:27:49,961 --> 00:27:51,761
to talk about suicide.
767
00:27:51,801 --> 00:27:53,801
I believe that people should have
the right to choose as well.
768
00:27:53,841 --> 00:27:55,841
I believe that people should have
the right to choose as well.
769
00:27:55,881 --> 00:27:56,161
I believe that people should have
the right to choose as well.
770
00:27:56,201 --> 00:27:58,201
I'm wholly behind
the right to die movement
771
00:27:58,241 --> 00:27:59,041
I'm wholly behind
the right to die movement
772
00:27:59,081 --> 00:28:01,081
for those who, you know, are
suffering from a terminal illness
773
00:28:01,121 --> 00:28:02,601
for those who, you know, are
suffering from a terminal illness
774
00:28:02,641 --> 00:28:04,641
that they can't come back from.
775
00:28:04,681 --> 00:28:04,961
that they can't come back from.
776
00:28:05,001 --> 00:28:07,001
And all that's at the end of that
is more suffering.
777
00:28:07,041 --> 00:28:08,841
And all that's at the end of that
is more suffering.
778
00:28:08,881 --> 00:28:10,881
But this is something different.
779
00:28:10,921 --> 00:28:12,921
But this is something different.
780
00:28:12,961 --> 00:28:13,121
But this is something different.
781
00:28:19,961 --> 00:28:21,961
This is a community that comes
together for one single purpose.
782
00:28:22,001 --> 00:28:24,001
This is a community that comes
together for one single purpose.
783
00:28:24,041 --> 00:28:24,241
This is a community that comes
together for one single purpose.
784
00:28:30,201 --> 00:28:32,201
They become an echo chamber
of despair
785
00:28:32,241 --> 00:28:34,241
They become an echo chamber
of despair
786
00:28:34,281 --> 00:28:36,281
They become an echo chamber
of despair
787
00:28:36,321 --> 00:28:36,841
They become an echo chamber
of despair
788
00:28:36,881 --> 00:28:38,881
and heartbreak.
789
00:28:38,921 --> 00:28:39,201
and heartbreak.
790
00:28:41,201 --> 00:28:43,201
But the thing is, if you say,
have you tried to reach out
791
00:28:43,241 --> 00:28:44,521
But the thing is, if you say,
have you tried to reach out
792
00:28:44,561 --> 00:28:46,561
to a suicide hotline?
you'll be banned from the site.
793
00:28:46,601 --> 00:28:47,961
to a suicide hotline?
you'll be banned from the site.
794
00:28:48,001 --> 00:28:50,001
If you try to suggest,
reach out for help,
795
00:28:50,041 --> 00:28:50,481
If you try to suggest,
reach out for help,
796
00:28:50,521 --> 00:28:52,521
do you have family,
do you have somebody, anybody?
797
00:28:52,561 --> 00:28:53,641
do you have family,
do you have somebody, anybody?
798
00:28:53,681 --> 00:28:55,441
you'll be banned from the site.
799
00:28:59,441 --> 00:29:01,441
Day after day after day you see them
say, goodbye, CTB,
800
00:29:01,481 --> 00:29:03,481
Day after day after day you see them
say, goodbye, CTB,
801
00:29:03,521 --> 00:29:04,721
Day after day after day you see them
say, goodbye, CTB,
802
00:29:04,761 --> 00:29:06,761
I'm going to catch the bus.
803
00:29:06,801 --> 00:29:07,121
I'm going to catch the bus.
804
00:29:13,081 --> 00:29:15,081
You don't know if these people
are minors,
805
00:29:15,121 --> 00:29:16,601
You don't know if these people
are minors,
806
00:29:16,641 --> 00:29:18,641
if they're going through
an acute mental episode.
807
00:29:18,681 --> 00:29:19,561
if they're going through
an acute mental episode.
808
00:29:19,601 --> 00:29:21,601
You don't know if these people
809
00:29:21,641 --> 00:29:22,561
You don't know if these people
810
00:29:22,601 --> 00:29:24,601
want to take back what they started
and they can't.
811
00:29:24,641 --> 00:29:26,641
want to take back what they started
and they can't.
812
00:29:26,681 --> 00:29:27,401
want to take back what they started
and they can't.
813
00:29:27,441 --> 00:29:29,441
And there's nothing you can do
about it. Absolutely nothing.
814
00:29:29,481 --> 00:29:30,601
And there's nothing you can do
about it. Absolutely nothing.
815
00:29:38,881 --> 00:29:40,881
It was only a few weeks ago
that I found that Tom started
816
00:29:40,921 --> 00:29:42,401
It was only a few weeks ago
that I found that Tom started
817
00:29:42,441 --> 00:29:44,441
a forum post when he took
the substance.
818
00:29:44,481 --> 00:29:45,201
a forum post when he took
the substance.
819
00:29:48,321 --> 00:29:50,321
He says, 'I took the poison.
My heart is beating fast.
820
00:29:50,361 --> 00:29:52,361
He says, 'I took the poison.
My heart is beating fast.
821
00:29:52,401 --> 00:29:53,361
He says, 'I took the poison.
My heart is beating fast.
822
00:29:53,401 --> 00:29:55,401
'It feels like I've been on a run.
823
00:29:55,441 --> 00:29:57,441
'I feel like I need to breathe
really hard".
824
00:29:57,481 --> 00:29:58,361
'I feel like I need to breathe
really hard".
825
00:30:00,041 --> 00:30:02,041
And then somebody else on the forum
says, 'See you on the other side.'
826
00:30:02,081 --> 00:30:04,081
And then somebody else on the forum
says, 'See you on the other side.'
827
00:30:04,121 --> 00:30:04,921
And then somebody else on the forum
says, 'See you on the other side.'
828
00:30:04,961 --> 00:30:06,961
Tom then posts...
829
00:30:07,001 --> 00:30:07,841
Tom then posts...
830
00:30:19,401 --> 00:30:21,401
And this is all within minutes
of each other.
831
00:30:21,441 --> 00:30:22,241
And this is all within minutes
of each other.
832
00:30:22,281 --> 00:30:24,281
This is happening in real time.
833
00:30:24,321 --> 00:30:25,041
This is happening in real time.
834
00:30:32,521 --> 00:30:34,521
Somebody else says...
835
00:30:34,561 --> 00:30:35,761
Somebody else says...
836
00:30:38,121 --> 00:30:40,121
And somebody else puts,
'Rest in peace, RIP.'
837
00:30:40,161 --> 00:30:42,041
And somebody else puts,
'Rest in peace, RIP.'
838
00:30:42,081 --> 00:30:44,081
Tom doesn't post any more.
839
00:30:44,121 --> 00:30:44,561
Tom doesn't post any more.
840
00:30:45,801 --> 00:30:47,801
And then, finally...
841
00:30:47,841 --> 00:30:49,001
And then, finally...
842
00:30:51,361 --> 00:30:53,361
That's the end of the thread.
843
00:30:53,401 --> 00:30:54,201
That's the end of the thread.
844
00:30:54,241 --> 00:30:56,241
So, all of that's happened within
a few minutes,
845
00:30:56,281 --> 00:30:57,041
So, all of that's happened within
a few minutes,
846
00:30:57,081 --> 00:30:59,081
and that's my son dying.
847
00:30:59,121 --> 00:30:59,281
and that's my son dying.
848
00:31:03,281 --> 00:31:05,281
What this substance actually does
is horrific.
849
00:31:05,321 --> 00:31:07,041
What this substance actually does
is horrific.
850
00:31:07,081 --> 00:31:09,081
The poison suffocates
the body from the inside.
851
00:31:09,121 --> 00:31:10,921
The poison suffocates
the body from the inside.
852
00:31:10,961 --> 00:31:12,961
I know Tom would've died in agony.
853
00:31:13,001 --> 00:31:14,001
I know Tom would've died in agony.
854
00:31:14,041 --> 00:31:16,041
And yet nobody calls an ambulance.
855
00:31:16,081 --> 00:31:16,721
And yet nobody calls an ambulance.
856
00:31:16,761 --> 00:31:18,681
Nobody tries to find him.
857
00:31:18,721 --> 00:31:20,721
Nobody asks the question,
where are you? What can we do?
858
00:31:20,761 --> 00:31:22,761
Nobody asks the question,
where are you? What can we do?
859
00:31:22,801 --> 00:31:23,041
Nobody asks the question,
where are you? What can we do?
860
00:31:23,081 --> 00:31:25,081
It's all congratulatory messages.
861
00:31:25,121 --> 00:31:26,081
It's all congratulatory messages.
862
00:31:26,121 --> 00:31:28,121
It's all messages of support.
863
00:31:28,161 --> 00:31:29,481
It's all messages of support.
864
00:31:45,241 --> 00:31:47,241
On all the forums that you
looked at, Dave,
865
00:31:47,281 --> 00:31:47,881
On all the forums that you
looked at, Dave,
866
00:31:47,921 --> 00:31:49,921
did you get the feeling that this
company is the biggest supplier,
867
00:31:49,961 --> 00:31:51,961
did you get the feeling that this
company is the biggest supplier,
868
00:31:52,001 --> 00:31:52,241
did you get the feeling that this
company is the biggest supplier,
869
00:31:52,281 --> 00:31:54,281
or the one that's signposted most?
870
00:31:54,321 --> 00:31:54,841
or the one that's signposted most?
871
00:31:54,881 --> 00:31:56,881
'Yeah. I would say it's the only
supplier I've seen signposted.
872
00:31:56,921 --> 00:31:58,561
'Yeah. I would say it's the only
supplier I've seen signposted.
873
00:31:58,601 --> 00:32:00,601
'But there's no doubt
it's killing people.
874
00:32:00,641 --> 00:32:01,241
'But there's no doubt
it's killing people.
875
00:32:01,281 --> 00:32:03,281
'The thing I've been trying
to find out,
876
00:32:03,321 --> 00:32:03,561
'The thing I've been trying
to find out,
877
00:32:03,601 --> 00:32:05,601
'and I can't, is how many?' Mm.
878
00:32:05,641 --> 00:32:05,881
'and I can't, is how many?' Mm.
879
00:32:05,921 --> 00:32:07,921
'Is it ten, 20, 100, a thousand?'
Mm.
880
00:32:07,961 --> 00:32:08,441
'Is it ten, 20, 100, a thousand?'
Mm.
881
00:32:13,921 --> 00:32:15,921
I'm spending increasing amounts
of time on this investigation
882
00:32:15,961 --> 00:32:17,241
I'm spending increasing amounts
of time on this investigation
883
00:32:17,281 --> 00:32:19,161
and trying to get things moving.
884
00:32:19,201 --> 00:32:21,201
Trying to find some answers
for David.
885
00:32:21,241 --> 00:32:21,441
Trying to find some answers
for David.
886
00:32:28,161 --> 00:32:30,161
'This week we're tackling
the difficult topic of suicide,
887
00:32:30,201 --> 00:32:31,561
'This week we're tackling
the difficult topic of suicide,
888
00:32:31,601 --> 00:32:33,601
'as numbers rise
at a startling rate,
889
00:32:33,641 --> 00:32:33,881
'as numbers rise
at a startling rate,
890
00:32:33,921 --> 00:32:35,841
'especially among young people.'
891
00:32:35,881 --> 00:32:37,881
Yes, the suicide rate jumped 33%
between 1999 and 2019.
892
00:32:37,921 --> 00:32:39,921
Yes, the suicide rate jumped 33%
between 1999 and 2019.
893
00:32:39,961 --> 00:32:40,841
Yes, the suicide rate jumped 33%
between 1999 and 2019.
894
00:32:40,881 --> 00:32:42,881
Then there was a small decrease
in 2020.
895
00:32:42,921 --> 00:32:44,281
Then there was a small decrease
in 2020.
896
00:32:47,041 --> 00:32:49,041
Kenneth Law's website started
gaining traction
897
00:32:49,081 --> 00:32:50,041
Kenneth Law's website started
gaining traction
898
00:32:50,081 --> 00:32:52,081
in the summer of 2021 on the forum.
899
00:32:52,121 --> 00:32:52,801
in the summer of 2021 on the forum.
900
00:32:56,561 --> 00:32:58,161
There are accounts about how
901
00:32:58,201 --> 00:33:00,201
Kenneth Law's product arrived
quickly in the post
902
00:33:00,241 --> 00:33:01,441
Kenneth Law's product arrived
quickly in the post
903
00:33:01,481 --> 00:33:03,481
without question from the
authorities.
904
00:33:03,521 --> 00:33:03,721
without question from the
authorities.
905
00:33:05,561 --> 00:33:07,561
No-one in the general public really
knew what was going on.
906
00:33:07,601 --> 00:33:08,801
No-one in the general public really
knew what was going on.
907
00:33:08,841 --> 00:33:10,841
No-one in the general public really
understood that people were
908
00:33:10,881 --> 00:33:12,161
No-one in the general public really
understood that people were
909
00:33:12,201 --> 00:33:14,201
so desperately ill that they would
log onto a suicide forum,
910
00:33:14,241 --> 00:33:16,241
so desperately ill that they would
log onto a suicide forum,
911
00:33:16,281 --> 00:33:16,521
so desperately ill that they would
log onto a suicide forum,
912
00:33:16,561 --> 00:33:18,561
be ushered towards a poison seller,
913
00:33:18,601 --> 00:33:20,241
be ushered towards a poison seller,
914
00:33:20,281 --> 00:33:22,281
receive that poison through
the mail,
915
00:33:22,321 --> 00:33:23,321
receive that poison through
the mail,
916
00:33:23,361 --> 00:33:25,361
take it and die.
917
00:33:25,401 --> 00:33:25,641
take it and die.
918
00:33:25,681 --> 00:33:27,681
And the sellers like Kenneth Law
make a living out of it.
919
00:33:27,721 --> 00:33:28,521
And the sellers like Kenneth Law
make a living out of it.
920
00:33:38,361 --> 00:33:40,361
60-something dollars cost
my brother's life.
921
00:33:40,401 --> 00:33:41,601
60-something dollars cost
my brother's life.
922
00:33:41,641 --> 00:33:43,641
Everything my brother's done
in the past,
923
00:33:43,681 --> 00:33:44,481
Everything my brother's done
in the past,
924
00:33:44,521 --> 00:33:46,521
and what he could do in
the future, came down to $60.
925
00:33:46,561 --> 00:33:48,561
and what he could do in
the future, came down to $60.
926
00:33:48,601 --> 00:33:48,801
and what he could do in
the future, came down to $60.
927
00:34:10,201 --> 00:34:12,201
Brings me back to happier days.
928
00:34:12,241 --> 00:34:13,161
Brings me back to happier days.
929
00:34:13,201 --> 00:34:14,601
Simpler days.
930
00:34:14,641 --> 00:34:15,881
The good old days.
931
00:34:19,721 --> 00:34:21,001
There we go.
932
00:34:21,041 --> 00:34:23,041
ON VIDEO:Benjy, tell me your full
name, honey.
933
00:34:23,081 --> 00:34:23,321
ON VIDEO:Benjy, tell me your full
name, honey.
934
00:34:23,361 --> 00:34:24,641
Benjy...
935
00:34:24,681 --> 00:34:26,681
Benjy? Yeah. All right.
936
00:34:26,721 --> 00:34:27,321
Benjy? Yeah. All right.
937
00:34:27,361 --> 00:34:29,001
Do you have any brothers
and sisters?
938
00:34:29,041 --> 00:34:30,721
One brother.
939
00:34:30,761 --> 00:34:32,241
How old is your brother?
940
00:34:32,281 --> 00:34:33,601
He's 11.
941
00:34:33,641 --> 00:34:35,401
What do you like about him?
942
00:34:35,441 --> 00:34:36,641
Um...
943
00:34:37,841 --> 00:34:39,241
Nothing, OK. No!
944
00:34:39,281 --> 00:34:41,281
You're real mean to him,
are you? No.
945
00:34:41,321 --> 00:34:42,641
You're real mean to him,
are you? No.
946
00:34:42,681 --> 00:34:44,681
Do you tease him? No.
947
00:34:44,721 --> 00:34:45,361
Do you tease him? No.
948
00:34:45,401 --> 00:34:47,401
Am I teasing you? Yeah. Yeah!
949
00:34:47,441 --> 00:34:48,881
Am I teasing you? Yeah. Yeah!
950
00:34:48,921 --> 00:34:50,921
And do you look after your brother
a lot? Most of the time. Yeah.
951
00:34:50,961 --> 00:34:52,961
And do you look after your brother
a lot? Most of the time. Yeah.
952
00:34:53,001 --> 00:34:53,361
And do you look after your brother
a lot? Most of the time. Yeah.
953
00:34:53,401 --> 00:34:55,401
Guess it can be a big job sometimes,
right? Yeah.
954
00:34:55,441 --> 00:34:56,361
Guess it can be a big job sometimes,
right? Yeah.
955
00:35:06,641 --> 00:35:08,441
Benjy was my younger brother.
956
00:35:10,761 --> 00:35:12,761
I was really the only one that knew
about all his struggles.
957
00:35:12,801 --> 00:35:14,801
I was really the only one that knew
about all his struggles.
958
00:35:14,841 --> 00:35:15,081
I was really the only one that knew
about all his struggles.
959
00:35:15,121 --> 00:35:17,121
I just didn't know how bad it was.
960
00:35:17,161 --> 00:35:17,321
I just didn't know how bad it was.
961
00:35:21,681 --> 00:35:23,681
I could protect him
from other people
962
00:35:23,721 --> 00:35:24,161
I could protect him
from other people
963
00:35:24,201 --> 00:35:26,201
and, you know, stupid decisions,
964
00:35:26,241 --> 00:35:26,561
and, you know, stupid decisions,
965
00:35:26,601 --> 00:35:28,601
but ultimately, the one thing
I couldn't do,
966
00:35:28,641 --> 00:35:29,761
but ultimately, the one thing
I couldn't do,
967
00:35:29,801 --> 00:35:31,681
I couldn't protect him from himself.
968
00:35:33,441 --> 00:35:35,441
That's the thing
that will...drive me crazy.
969
00:35:35,481 --> 00:35:37,321
That's the thing
that will...drive me crazy.
970
00:35:53,361 --> 00:35:55,361
Benjy left a suicide note
on the table saying,
971
00:35:55,401 --> 00:35:56,641
Benjy left a suicide note
on the table saying,
972
00:35:56,681 --> 00:35:58,681
"Make sure my brother gets my
cellphone."
973
00:35:58,721 --> 00:35:59,441
"Make sure my brother gets my
cellphone."
974
00:36:00,961 --> 00:36:02,961
It was almost like a map for me.
975
00:36:03,001 --> 00:36:04,001
It was almost like a map for me.
976
00:36:04,041 --> 00:36:05,801
He didn't log out of stuff.
977
00:36:05,841 --> 00:36:07,841
He didn't delete
his browser history.
978
00:36:07,881 --> 00:36:08,401
He didn't delete
his browser history.
979
00:36:09,681 --> 00:36:11,681
Reading my brother's
questions and comments,
980
00:36:11,721 --> 00:36:12,161
Reading my brother's
questions and comments,
981
00:36:12,201 --> 00:36:14,201
I'm seeing that he was guided
to Imtime Cuisine
982
00:36:14,241 --> 00:36:16,001
I'm seeing that he was guided
to Imtime Cuisine
983
00:36:16,041 --> 00:36:17,641
to purchase the poison.
984
00:36:19,121 --> 00:36:20,401
Let me grab this one.
985
00:36:21,961 --> 00:36:23,961
A user says, "Imtime Cuisine is
where I get it from.
986
00:36:24,001 --> 00:36:26,001
A user says, "Imtime Cuisine is
where I get it from.
987
00:36:26,041 --> 00:36:26,321
A user says, "Imtime Cuisine is
where I get it from.
988
00:36:26,361 --> 00:36:28,361
"Usually, you need a licence to
obtain the poison,
989
00:36:28,401 --> 00:36:30,241
"Usually, you need a licence to
obtain the poison,
990
00:36:30,281 --> 00:36:32,281
"but Imtime Cuisine
just hands it out."
991
00:36:32,321 --> 00:36:33,161
"but Imtime Cuisine
just hands it out."
992
00:36:35,001 --> 00:36:36,881
I went through his emails
993
00:36:36,921 --> 00:36:38,921
and it's clear as day
to see what Benjy bought,
994
00:36:38,961 --> 00:36:40,961
and it's clear as day
to see what Benjy bought,
995
00:36:41,001 --> 00:36:41,281
and it's clear as day
to see what Benjy bought,
996
00:36:41,321 --> 00:36:43,321
when he bought it
and who he had bought it from.
997
00:36:43,361 --> 00:36:44,001
when he bought it
and who he had bought it from.
998
00:36:45,681 --> 00:36:47,681
I found he had made
several purchases from
999
00:36:47,721 --> 00:36:49,721
I found he had made
several purchases from
1000
00:36:49,761 --> 00:36:50,001
I found he had made
several purchases from
1001
00:36:50,041 --> 00:36:51,601
Kenneth Law directly.
1002
00:36:51,641 --> 00:36:53,641
He uses his name in the email
1003
00:36:53,681 --> 00:36:54,801
He uses his name in the email
1004
00:36:54,841 --> 00:36:56,841
for different amounts of poison.
1005
00:36:56,881 --> 00:36:58,041
for different amounts of poison.
1006
00:37:00,041 --> 00:37:02,041
Kenneth Law was well aware
of what he was doing.
1007
00:37:02,081 --> 00:37:02,801
Kenneth Law was well aware
of what he was doing.
1008
00:37:02,841 --> 00:37:04,841
He knew why people were getting it
1009
00:37:04,881 --> 00:37:05,161
He knew why people were getting it
1010
00:37:05,201 --> 00:37:07,201
and he did nothing to stop or try
1011
00:37:07,241 --> 00:37:08,121
and he did nothing to stop or try
1012
00:37:08,161 --> 00:37:10,161
and get them to get help
or talk them down or anything.
1013
00:37:10,201 --> 00:37:12,201
and get them to get help
or talk them down or anything.
1014
00:37:12,241 --> 00:37:12,601
and get them to get help
or talk them down or anything.
1015
00:37:12,641 --> 00:37:14,441
He just saw dollar signs.
1016
00:37:15,841 --> 00:37:17,841
Customers were dollar signs to him.
1017
00:37:17,881 --> 00:37:18,041
Customers were dollar signs to him.
1018
00:37:49,361 --> 00:37:51,361
We started ringing the alarm bells
about Kenneth Law
1019
00:37:51,401 --> 00:37:53,401
We started ringing the alarm bells
about Kenneth Law
1020
00:37:53,441 --> 00:37:53,681
We started ringing the alarm bells
about Kenneth Law
1021
00:37:53,721 --> 00:37:55,641
in February of 2022.
1022
00:38:03,441 --> 00:38:05,441
At the time, I worked in
the Cyber division for the FBI,
1023
00:38:05,481 --> 00:38:07,481
At the time, I worked in
the Cyber division for the FBI,
1024
00:38:07,521 --> 00:38:08,241
At the time, I worked in
the Cyber division for the FBI,
1025
00:38:08,281 --> 00:38:10,281
and so, I went to my section chief,
1026
00:38:10,321 --> 00:38:11,561
and so, I went to my section chief,
1027
00:38:11,601 --> 00:38:13,601
and I brought the evidence
that I had to him.
1028
00:38:13,641 --> 00:38:15,281
and I brought the evidence
that I had to him.
1029
00:38:15,321 --> 00:38:17,321
I showed him how
the site was being used,
1030
00:38:17,361 --> 00:38:18,801
I showed him how
the site was being used,
1031
00:38:18,841 --> 00:38:20,841
this person
who's peddling the site to people
1032
00:38:20,881 --> 00:38:21,161
this person
who's peddling the site to people
1033
00:38:21,201 --> 00:38:23,201
who were trying to commit
suicide in the United States,
1034
00:38:23,241 --> 00:38:24,761
who were trying to commit
suicide in the United States,
1035
00:38:24,801 --> 00:38:26,801
and the answer I was given was,
1036
00:38:26,841 --> 00:38:27,561
and the answer I was given was,
1037
00:38:27,601 --> 00:38:29,601
"He's not an American
and this is a legal substance,
1038
00:38:29,641 --> 00:38:31,641
"He's not an American
and this is a legal substance,
1039
00:38:31,681 --> 00:38:32,361
"He's not an American
and this is a legal substance,
1040
00:38:32,401 --> 00:38:34,401
"so there's nothing we can do
about it."
1041
00:38:34,441 --> 00:38:34,721
"so there's nothing we can do
about it."
1042
00:38:34,761 --> 00:38:36,761
And that... I was kind of just shut
down right there.
1043
00:38:36,801 --> 00:38:37,641
And that... I was kind of just shut
down right there.
1044
00:38:37,681 --> 00:38:39,681
Well, and then, that's when
I picked it up,
1045
00:38:39,721 --> 00:38:40,001
Well, and then, that's when
I picked it up,
1046
00:38:40,041 --> 00:38:42,041
and I contacted the police,
1047
00:38:42,081 --> 00:38:42,921
and I contacted the police,
1048
00:38:42,961 --> 00:38:44,961
the FBI, the Food and Drug
Administration.
1049
00:38:45,001 --> 00:38:46,121
the FBI, the Food and Drug
Administration.
1050
00:38:47,841 --> 00:38:49,841
It was a consistent shut down
1051
00:38:49,881 --> 00:38:50,761
It was a consistent shut down
1052
00:38:50,801 --> 00:38:52,801
at every avenue because that poison
is not regulated right now.
1053
00:38:52,841 --> 00:38:54,841
at every avenue because that poison
is not regulated right now.
1054
00:38:54,881 --> 00:38:56,881
at every avenue because that poison
is not regulated right now.
1055
00:38:56,921 --> 00:38:58,081
at every avenue because that poison
is not regulated right now.
1056
00:38:58,121 --> 00:39:00,121
It's not marked as harmful.
1057
00:39:00,161 --> 00:39:00,321
It's not marked as harmful.
1058
00:39:05,081 --> 00:39:07,081
Nothing was being done,
1059
00:39:07,121 --> 00:39:07,441
Nothing was being done,
1060
00:39:07,481 --> 00:39:09,481
and Kenneth Law was still operating,
1061
00:39:09,521 --> 00:39:11,201
and Kenneth Law was still operating,
1062
00:39:11,241 --> 00:39:13,241
and it was the most frustrating,
1063
00:39:13,281 --> 00:39:14,081
and it was the most frustrating,
1064
00:39:14,121 --> 00:39:16,121
because at that point
you're thinking,
1065
00:39:16,161 --> 00:39:16,561
because at that point
you're thinking,
1066
00:39:16,601 --> 00:39:18,161
"Where else can I go?
1067
00:39:20,601 --> 00:39:22,601
"Who can help us shut this down?"
1068
00:39:22,641 --> 00:39:23,401
"Who can help us shut this down?"
1069
00:39:30,001 --> 00:39:32,001
What you want to do on a story like
this is to hold somebody accountable
1070
00:39:32,041 --> 00:39:33,481
What you want to do on a story like
this is to hold somebody accountable
1071
00:39:33,521 --> 00:39:35,521
and make them answer questions.
1072
00:39:35,561 --> 00:39:35,801
and make them answer questions.
1073
00:39:35,841 --> 00:39:37,841
This is someone
who's evaded scrutiny
1074
00:39:37,881 --> 00:39:38,161
This is someone
who's evaded scrutiny
1075
00:39:38,201 --> 00:39:40,201
and accountability
for almost two years.
1076
00:39:40,241 --> 00:39:41,041
and accountability
for almost two years.
1077
00:39:41,081 --> 00:39:43,081
At this point,
I had absolutely no idea
1078
00:39:43,121 --> 00:39:43,881
At this point,
I had absolutely no idea
1079
00:39:43,921 --> 00:39:45,921
whether there was one death
or a 100 deaths.
1080
00:39:45,961 --> 00:39:46,841
whether there was one death
or a 100 deaths.
1081
00:39:48,521 --> 00:39:50,521
I believed he knew his customers
were purchasing his poison
1082
00:39:50,561 --> 00:39:51,921
I believed he knew his customers
were purchasing his poison
1083
00:39:51,961 --> 00:39:53,681
to take their own lives,
1084
00:39:53,721 --> 00:39:55,721
but I needed to get him on
the phone admitting this.
1085
00:39:55,761 --> 00:39:56,641
but I needed to get him on
the phone admitting this.
1086
00:39:57,961 --> 00:39:59,961
On his escMode website,
1087
00:40:00,001 --> 00:40:00,401
On his escMode website,
1088
00:40:00,441 --> 00:40:02,441
he offered a 40-minute
consultation call
1089
00:40:02,481 --> 00:40:03,161
he offered a 40-minute
consultation call
1090
00:40:03,201 --> 00:40:05,201
with a prospective buyer of one
of his products.
1091
00:40:05,241 --> 00:40:05,961
with a prospective buyer of one
of his products.
1092
00:40:08,001 --> 00:40:10,001
So, I purchased
the consultation call.
1093
00:40:10,041 --> 00:40:10,481
So, I purchased
the consultation call.
1094
00:40:14,241 --> 00:40:16,121
And waited for him to reach out.
1095
01:20:44,551 --> 01:20:46,551
This programme contains
detailed discussions
about suicide and mental health
1096
01:20:46,591 --> 01:20:48,591
This programme contains
detailed discussions
about suicide and mental health
1097
01:20:48,631 --> 01:20:50,631
This programme contains
detailed discussions
about suicide and mental health
1098
01:20:50,671 --> 01:20:52,191
This programme contains
detailed discussions
about suicide and mental health
1099
01:20:56,551 --> 01:20:58,551
This is very much
a modern phenomenon.
1100
01:20:58,591 --> 01:20:58,911
This is very much
a modern phenomenon.
1101
01:20:58,951 --> 01:21:00,951
The poison has legitimate uses
1102
01:21:00,991 --> 01:21:02,591
The poison has legitimate uses
1103
01:21:02,631 --> 01:21:04,631
and up until recently, the
legitimate uses were its only uses.
1104
01:21:04,671 --> 01:21:06,671
and up until recently, the
legitimate uses were its only uses.
1105
01:21:06,711 --> 01:21:07,791
and up until recently, the
legitimate uses were its only uses.
1106
01:21:07,831 --> 01:21:09,831
But for the last five or six years,
in particular,
1107
01:21:09,871 --> 01:21:11,871
But for the last five or six years,
in particular,
1108
01:21:11,911 --> 01:21:12,991
But for the last five or six years,
in particular,
1109
01:21:13,031 --> 01:21:15,031
this poison has been linked to
a number of suicides.
1110
01:21:15,071 --> 01:21:15,911
this poison has been linked to
a number of suicides.
1111
01:21:17,511 --> 01:21:19,511
This case gets complicated because
this substance
1112
01:21:19,551 --> 01:21:20,631
This case gets complicated because
this substance
1113
01:21:20,671 --> 01:21:22,671
is reportable under
the Poisons Act,
1114
01:21:22,711 --> 01:21:23,191
is reportable under
the Poisons Act,
1115
01:21:23,231 --> 01:21:25,231
but all that means is that
the seller has to report
1116
01:21:25,271 --> 01:21:26,591
but all that means is that
the seller has to report
1117
01:21:26,631 --> 01:21:28,631
suspicious transactions
to the authorities.
1118
01:21:28,671 --> 01:21:29,271
suspicious transactions
to the authorities.
1119
01:21:32,831 --> 01:21:34,831
If you come across a seller
that isn't reporting
1120
01:21:34,871 --> 01:21:35,191
If you come across a seller
that isn't reporting
1121
01:21:35,231 --> 01:21:37,231
suspicious transactions,
the implication is that
1122
01:21:37,271 --> 01:21:38,351
suspicious transactions,
the implication is that
1123
01:21:38,391 --> 01:21:40,391
they would be knowingly selling
that substance
1124
01:21:40,431 --> 01:21:41,351
they would be knowingly selling
that substance
1125
01:21:41,391 --> 01:21:43,391
to people who might be using it
to harming themselves
1126
01:21:43,431 --> 01:21:43,671
to people who might be using it
to harming themselves
1127
01:21:43,711 --> 01:21:45,711
and profiting from that.
1128
01:21:45,751 --> 01:21:45,911
and profiting from that.
1129
01:21:52,671 --> 01:21:54,671
I decided to speak
to Kenneth Law under
1130
01:21:54,711 --> 01:21:54,991
I decided to speak
to Kenneth Law under
1131
01:21:55,031 --> 01:21:57,031
the guise of someone who
needed help, in order to get him
1132
01:21:57,071 --> 01:21:57,391
the guise of someone who
needed help, in order to get him
1133
01:21:57,431 --> 01:21:59,271
to tell me things he wouldn't
tell me
1134
01:21:59,311 --> 01:22:01,311
if I was
a journalist calling up.
1135
01:22:01,351 --> 01:22:01,551
if I was
a journalist calling up.
1136
01:22:03,031 --> 01:22:05,031
I needed to get him to admit
on the phone
1137
01:22:05,071 --> 01:22:05,431
I needed to get him to admit
on the phone
1138
01:22:05,471 --> 01:22:07,471
that he was selling
intentionally to
1139
01:22:07,511 --> 01:22:07,751
that he was selling
intentionally to
1140
01:22:07,791 --> 01:22:09,111
a person that was suicidal.
1141
01:22:10,671 --> 01:22:12,671
This would be the one and only
chance to nail down
1142
01:22:12,711 --> 01:22:14,711
This would be the one and only
chance to nail down
1143
01:22:14,751 --> 01:22:15,231
This would be the one and only
chance to nail down
1144
01:22:15,271 --> 01:22:17,271
who he was and find out the scale
of his operation.
1145
01:22:17,311 --> 01:22:17,951
who he was and find out the scale
of his operation.
1146
01:22:23,511 --> 01:22:25,511
LINE RINGS
1147
01:22:25,551 --> 01:22:26,591
LINE RINGS
1148
01:22:27,951 --> 01:22:29,951
Of course, I couldn't use my
real name.
1149
01:22:29,991 --> 01:22:30,831
Of course, I couldn't use my
real name.
1150
01:22:30,871 --> 01:22:32,671
Hello, Ken, here.
1151
01:22:32,711 --> 01:22:34,031
Hi, Ken, it's John.
1152
01:22:35,431 --> 01:22:37,431
Hi, John. How are you doing today?
Yeah, I'm good. How are you?
1153
01:22:37,471 --> 01:22:39,231
Hi, John. How are you doing today?
Yeah, I'm good. How are you?
1154
01:22:39,271 --> 01:22:41,271
So, you're interested
in our products.
1155
01:22:41,311 --> 01:22:41,951
So, you're interested
in our products.
1156
01:22:41,991 --> 01:22:43,991
I just wanted to be really sure
about my purchase, basically.
1157
01:22:44,031 --> 01:22:46,031
I just wanted to be really sure
about my purchase, basically.
1158
01:22:46,071 --> 01:22:46,351
I just wanted to be really sure
about my purchase, basically.
1159
01:22:46,391 --> 01:22:48,391
What, what do you think the
chances are that,
1160
01:22:48,431 --> 01:22:49,031
What, what do you think the
chances are that,
1161
01:22:49,071 --> 01:22:50,511
that it will kill me?
1162
01:22:50,551 --> 01:22:52,551
I mean, it's a very,
very high probability.
1163
01:22:52,591 --> 01:22:53,351
I mean, it's a very,
very high probability.
1164
01:22:53,391 --> 01:22:55,391
Is it legal?Well, truth is,
that's a very much of a grey area.
1165
01:22:55,431 --> 01:22:57,431
Is it legal?Well, truth is,
that's a very much of a grey area.
1166
01:22:57,471 --> 01:22:57,751
Is it legal?Well, truth is,
that's a very much of a grey area.
1167
01:22:57,791 --> 01:22:59,791
As long as I don't say that
the intent is to commit,
1168
01:22:59,831 --> 01:23:00,591
As long as I don't say that
the intent is to commit,
1169
01:23:00,631 --> 01:23:02,471
you know, suicide, it's fine.
1170
01:23:02,511 --> 01:23:04,511
And you can assure me
that you've done this before
1171
01:23:04,551 --> 01:23:05,031
And you can assure me
that you've done this before
1172
01:23:05,071 --> 01:23:07,071
with people in the UK?
Yes, yes, yes.
1173
01:23:07,111 --> 01:23:07,431
with people in the UK?
Yes, yes, yes.
1174
01:23:07,471 --> 01:23:09,471
And they've...they've died
because of this?
1175
01:23:09,511 --> 01:23:09,871
And they've...they've died
because of this?
1176
01:23:09,911 --> 01:23:11,751
Yes. Absolutely.
1177
01:23:15,511 --> 01:23:17,511
Do I cause any problems for you?
1178
01:23:17,551 --> 01:23:17,791
Do I cause any problems for you?
1179
01:23:17,831 --> 01:23:19,831
The only thing I ask is that
any documentation,
1180
01:23:19,871 --> 01:23:20,151
The only thing I ask is that
any documentation,
1181
01:23:20,191 --> 01:23:22,191
communication that we exchange,
1182
01:23:22,231 --> 01:23:22,551
communication that we exchange,
1183
01:23:22,591 --> 01:23:24,591
that you destroy it prior. OK.
1184
01:23:24,631 --> 01:23:24,871
that you destroy it prior. OK.
1185
01:23:24,911 --> 01:23:26,911
Any type of labels that might be on
the mailing box,
1186
01:23:26,951 --> 01:23:27,351
Any type of labels that might be on
the mailing box,
1187
01:23:27,391 --> 01:23:29,391
to destroy that and dispose of it
prior. Yeah.
1188
01:23:29,431 --> 01:23:29,711
to destroy that and dispose of it
prior. Yeah.
1189
01:23:29,751 --> 01:23:31,751
Other than that, it's
not really traceable.
1190
01:23:31,791 --> 01:23:32,031
Other than that, it's
not really traceable.
1191
01:23:32,071 --> 01:23:33,631
So, you just tell the police
1192
01:23:33,671 --> 01:23:35,671
that you don't know why this person
has bought it.
1193
01:23:35,711 --> 01:23:36,031
that you don't know why this person
has bought it.
1194
01:23:36,071 --> 01:23:37,951
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1195
01:23:37,991 --> 01:23:39,431
Even easier from...
1196
01:23:39,471 --> 01:23:41,471
I'm sending international, right?
1197
01:23:41,511 --> 01:23:42,071
I'm sending international, right?
1198
01:23:42,111 --> 01:23:44,111
Your UK government has no
jurisdiction
1199
01:23:44,151 --> 01:23:44,431
Your UK government has no
jurisdiction
1200
01:23:44,471 --> 01:23:46,471
to the Canadian government
and then, I can, you know,
1201
01:23:46,511 --> 01:23:47,191
to the Canadian government
and then, I can, you know,
1202
01:23:47,231 --> 01:23:49,231
bring me over to the UK for this,
it's just not.
1203
01:23:49,271 --> 01:23:51,071
bring me over to the UK for this,
it's just not.
1204
01:23:54,191 --> 01:23:56,191
How many people have you sent it
to in the UK?
1205
01:23:56,231 --> 01:23:56,671
How many people have you sent it
to in the UK?
1206
01:23:56,711 --> 01:23:58,711
It would be literally
in the hundreds.
1207
01:23:58,751 --> 01:23:59,591
It would be literally
in the hundreds.
1208
01:24:00,671 --> 01:24:02,311
They've all received it.
1209
01:24:03,551 --> 01:24:05,551
People in the UK have died?
1210
01:24:05,591 --> 01:24:05,791
People in the UK have died?
1211
01:24:05,831 --> 01:24:07,831
Yes. People in UK died.
1212
01:24:07,871 --> 01:24:08,471
Yes. People in UK died.
1213
01:24:13,111 --> 01:24:14,791
People in US have died.
1214
01:24:16,911 --> 01:24:18,751
People in Canada have died.
1215
01:24:18,791 --> 01:24:20,791
In other parts
of the world have died.
1216
01:24:20,831 --> 01:24:21,351
In other parts
of the world have died.
1217
01:24:23,311 --> 01:24:25,231
How many countries
do you send this to?
1218
01:24:26,671 --> 01:24:28,671
Oh!
1219
01:24:28,711 --> 01:24:28,911
Oh!
1220
01:24:28,951 --> 01:24:30,631
Many countries.
1221
01:24:30,671 --> 01:24:32,671
Probably at least a dozen now,
right?
1222
01:24:32,711 --> 01:24:33,271
Probably at least a dozen now,
right?
1223
01:24:42,191 --> 01:24:44,191
Sounds like a full-time job.
I've been kept busy, yeah.
1224
01:24:44,231 --> 01:24:45,711
Sounds like a full-time job.
I've been kept busy, yeah.
1225
01:24:54,271 --> 01:24:56,271
It's just...evil.
1226
01:24:56,311 --> 01:24:56,471
It's just...evil.
1227
01:24:57,791 --> 01:24:59,791
OK, take good care of yourself.
Thank you. Bye.
1228
01:24:59,831 --> 01:25:00,711
OK, take good care of yourself.
Thank you. Bye.
1229
01:25:05,551 --> 01:25:07,551
Hearing his voice...
1230
01:25:07,591 --> 01:25:07,991
Hearing his voice...
1231
01:25:08,031 --> 01:25:10,031
..to me, that's the man who
murdered...my...my kid.
1232
01:25:10,071 --> 01:25:12,071
..to me, that's the man who
murdered...my...my kid.
1233
01:25:12,111 --> 01:25:12,591
..to me, that's the man who
murdered...my...my kid.
1234
01:25:16,111 --> 01:25:18,111
He knew exactly what he was doing.
1235
01:25:18,151 --> 01:25:19,791
He knew exactly what he was doing.
1236
01:25:19,831 --> 01:25:21,831
Kenneth Law is a sure
and present danger to the public.
1237
01:25:21,871 --> 01:25:23,871
Kenneth Law is a sure
and present danger to the public.
1238
01:25:23,911 --> 01:25:24,431
Kenneth Law is a sure
and present danger to the public.
1239
01:25:24,471 --> 01:25:26,471
He is connected to
an enterprise of suicide methods.
1240
01:25:26,511 --> 01:25:28,511
He is connected to
an enterprise of suicide methods.
1241
01:25:28,551 --> 01:25:29,991
He is connected to
an enterprise of suicide methods.
1242
01:25:31,071 --> 01:25:32,751
Hundreds of deaths,
1243
01:25:32,791 --> 01:25:34,791
dozens of countries
1244
01:25:34,831 --> 01:25:35,031
dozens of countries
1245
01:25:35,071 --> 01:25:37,071
and other people are still dying.
1246
01:25:37,111 --> 01:25:37,351
and other people are still dying.
1247
01:25:37,391 --> 01:25:39,391
He has no intention of stopping,
if somebody doesn't stop him.
1248
01:25:39,431 --> 01:25:40,791
He has no intention of stopping,
if somebody doesn't stop him.
1249
01:25:42,471 --> 01:25:44,031
I couldn't let him slip away.
1250
01:25:46,351 --> 01:25:48,351
I needed to go to Canada
to track him down...
1251
01:25:48,391 --> 01:25:48,591
I needed to go to Canada
to track him down...
1252
01:25:52,311 --> 01:25:54,311
..and properly hold him accountable
for these deaths.
1253
01:25:54,351 --> 01:25:54,831
..and properly hold him accountable
for these deaths.
1254
01:25:56,351 --> 01:25:58,351
Hiya, Kenneth?Hi.
1255
01:25:58,391 --> 01:25:58,711
Hiya, Kenneth?Hi.
1256
01:25:58,751 --> 01:26:00,751
Kenneth Law, er, James Beal.
Oh, what are you doing here?
1257
01:26:00,791 --> 01:26:01,751
Kenneth Law, er, James Beal.
Oh, what are you doing here?
1258
01:27:23,831 --> 01:27:25,831
Subtitles by Red Bee Media
1259
01:27:25,871 --> 01:27:26,031
Subtitles by Red Bee Media
142495
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