Original subtitles

Downloaded from YTS.MX

Captions made possible by HOME BOX OFFICE, INC.

Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX

( female ) I KNOW THAT THE STORY IS THAT THE PEOPLE

WHO BOUGHT THE PLOT FOR THEM

HAD TO LIE AND SAY IT WAS FOR SOMEBODY ELSE...

SO FROM THE BEGINNING NOBODY EVEN WANTED

THEIR DEAD BODIES.

THOSE ARE MY GRANDPARENTS.

( bell ringing )

SORRY.

HELLO.

I'M LOOKING FOR A PARTICULAR GRAVE.

CAN YOU GIVE ME A MAP ?

( female ) WHAT'S THE NAME ?

IT'S ROSENBERG.

ETHEL AND JULIUS ROSENBERG.

NO.

YOU CAN'T DO THAT LOCATION ?

I MEAN, THIS IS-- THIS IS MY FAMILY.

( male reporter ) Dateline, Sing Sing, June 19th, 1953.

Someone had passed America's atomic bomb secrets to Russia.

This was an undisputed fact that the whole world knew.

The federal government had laid the crime

at the doorstep of two native New Yorkers,

Julius and Ethel Rosenberg,

but to the end they both protested

their innocence of the theft.

In April of 1951, the Federal Court

of Judge Irving R. Kaufman found the pair guilty as charged,

and sentenced them to death in the electric chair

to pay for their crime of treason.

( Ivy Meeropol ) I GREW UP WITH IMAGES OF MY GRANDPARENTS IN MY HOUSE.

THERE WAS THE PICASSO.

THERE WAS THE LEGER.

BUT I DIDN'T ASK MY FATHER TOO MANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THEM,

BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT TO BRING UP PAINFUL MEMORIES.

( male on tv ) ... trying to keep it a one run game in the top of the ninth...

DAMN.

DAMN.

( Ivy Meeropol ) WHAT ARE YOU DOING, DAD ?

THEY'RE DOWN.

DAMNIT.

I DIDN'T FOLLOW BASEBALL 'TIL THE WORLD SERIES OF 1952,

AND IN 1953, I WATCHED BASEBALL ALL SUMMER LONG,

AND THAT'S WHEN I GOT HOOKED.

I WAS A DODGER FAN BECAUSE JULIUS ROSENBERG WAS A DODGER FAN.

I ALWAYS USED TO SAY THAT.

"I AM A DODGER FAN 'CAUSE MY FATHER WAS A DODGER FAN."

AND, BUT WATCHING IT WAS A GOOD DISTRACTION.

IN FACT, ROBBY AND I WERE WATCHING A BASEBALL GAME,

IT WAS IN ACTUALITY, IT WAS A PHILADELPHIA ATHLETICS GAME

THE AFTERNOON OF JUNE 19th WHEN THEY KEPT INTERRUPTING IT

WITH ALL THESE HORRIBLE ANNOUNCEMENTS

ABOUT WHAT WAS GONNA HAPPEN THAT DAY.

( male ) Kind of a ghastly climax to those curious lives

that had started out in the poverty

of the lower east side here in New York,

which for a time had shown great promise.

He was a graduate electrical engineer.

She had hoped to be an opera singer.

Had a good voice...

They were sort of childhood sweethearts.

Everything to live for.

Couple children...

Residence in this great country...

with all of its opportunities.

I LIKE THESE PICTURES, THESE ARE SO COOL.

YOU KNOW, THIS CLOSE-UP IS NICE.

BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT THE ORIGINAL,

YOU CAN ACTUALLY SEE HOW DIRTY MY NAILS WERE.

AND THIS IS BEFORE ROBBY'S HAIR WAS CUT.

( Ivy Meeropol ) AND HOW OLD WERE YOU GUYS THERE ?

WELL, HE'S THREE AND I'M SEVEN,

OR HE'S TWO AND I'M SIX ?

THIS IS A VERY FAMOUS PHOTO RIGHT HERE,

BECAUSE, THIS IS PROBABLY IN CENTRAL PARK,

AND IT'S PROBABLY RIGHT AFTER THEY GOT MARRIED.

AND IT'S YOU KNOW REALLY, REALLY NICE,

THEY'RE VERY, VERY HAPPY, OBVIOUSLY.

I MEAN, ROBBY AND I CAN SAY THAT THERE WAS WARMTH,

THERE WAS LOVE, THERE WAS CUDDLING,

THERE WAS TEACHING AND BASEBALL

AND LOVE OF MUSIC.

WE HAD THAT, AND EVEN THOUGH ROBBY WAS ONLY THREE,

HE HAS A SENSE OF WARMTH, YOU KNOW.

AND WE CAN HAVE THAT, BUT YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T,

AND THAT IS VERY, VERY UNFORTUNATE,

AND IT'S REALLY UNFORTUNATE

BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN MYTHOLOGIZED SO.

THEY MADE DIFFICULT CHOICES.

AND, I MAY NOT HAVE AGREED WITH ALL THEIR CHOICES.

THERE ARE ALL THESE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO WANT TO SAY

EITHER THE ROSENBERGS ARE DEVILS OR THE ROSENBERGS ARE SAINTS.

AND THE REALITY IS THEY'RE NEITHER DEVILS NOR SAINTS.

( Ivy Meeropol ) THERE'S A FORGOTTEN GUY IN MY GRANDPARENT'S CASE

BECAUSE IT WAS ACTUALLY THE ROSENBERG-SOBELL TRIAL.

I'VE KNOWN MORTY MY WHOLE LIFE,

BUT I'VE NEVER REALLY TALKED TO HIM.

( male on intercom ) Hi.

MORTY ?

I'm coming down.

OKAY.

( female ) HEY, NO CAMERAS IN THE LOBBY.

DO YOU WANT TO GO FOR--

NO CAMERAS IN--

TAKE HER, TAKE HER, TAKE HER !

NO, DON'T YOU DARE, PLEASE DON'T !

HENRIETTA, THESE ARE MY FRIENDS, WE'LL INTRODUCE YOU LATER.

GOOD TO SEE YOU, IVY.

YOU TOO.

WHEN I WAS CLEANING UP MIKE PERLIN'S OFFICE,

THAT'S THE LAWYER,

ONE OF THE THINGS I RAN INTO WAS THIS BOX AND I OPENED IT UP,

AND I WAS SURPRISED AT THE...

LET'S SEE, WHAT DO WE HAVE HERE ?

HERE'S A BADGE FOR JULIUS.

OH, WOW.

AT SIGNAL CORP.

SIGNAL MANUFACTURING CORPORATION.

THAT WAS WHEN HE WAS WORKING FOR THE GOVERNMENT

AND THEN HE GOT CANNED.

YEAH, YEAH, YEAH.

A COUPLE OF LITTLE OTHER THINGS THAT THEY HAD AT THAT TIME.

SO I RESCUED THEM.

WONDER IF THIS "E" IS FOR ETHEL ?

NO, EXCELLENCE, EXCELLENCE.

I REMEMBER WE GOT THOSE, BUT I FORGOT WHAT THEY WERE.

SO, I GUESS WHERE WE SHOULD JUST START

IS FROM THE VERY BEGINNING.

USUALLY, USUALLY...

A GOOD PLACE TO START.

SO I MEAN, FOR ME...

WHERE IS THE BEGINNING, THOUGH ?

WELL, THAT'S TRUE, WHERE IS THE BEGINNING ?

HOW ABOUT TRYING TO UNDERSTAND

WHO MY GRANDPARENTS WERE AS PEOPLE ?

THEY WERE VERY ORDINARY PEOPLE.

WHEN I KNEW THEM THEY WERE...

NOT DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER PEOPLE YOU KNOW,

EXCEPT THAT THEY WERE POLITICAL, VERY POLITICAL.

WHAT WERE THEY LIKE TOGETHER ?

I MEAN, THERE WAS ALWAYS THIS, "THEY WERE SO IN LOVE..."

OH, THEY WERE VERY... OH YEAH.

AWW.

BUT WHAT DID YOU LIKE ABOUT THEM ?

THEY WERE POLITICAL, WE WERE COMRADES.

THEY WERE MY KIND OF PEOPLE.

SO WHAT WOULD YOU DO ?

WOULD YOU HAVE DINNER ?

WE DIDN'T HAVE DINNER, WE JUST TALKED.

WE NEVER WENT OUT OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

WE JUST TALKED, THAT WAS IT.

WHAT WERE THE HOT TOPICS ?

WELL, LET'S SEE,

THE SPANISH CIVIL WAR STARTED AROUND THEN,

AND THEN THE SOVIET UNION.

WE TALKED ABOUT WHAT WAS TAKING PLACE IN THE SOVIET UNION.

DID MY GRANDMOTHER STRIKE YOU AS SOMEONE WHO CARED ABOUT THIS--

FUNNY WHEN YOU SAY, "MY GRANDMOTHER."

I HAVE TO DO A DOUBLE TAKE...

( laughing )

HOW COME ?

WELL, I CAN'T THINK OF HER AS A GRANDMOTHER.

I KNOW.

BECAUSE SHE WAS SO YOUNG WHEN YOU LAST SAW HER.

YEAH, YEAH, YEAH.

WHAT WAS HER ROLE ?

SHE WAS MORE INTO CHILDREN, AND HOW TO BRING UP CHILDREN.

( Michael Meeropol ) MORTY SOBELL.

MORTY SOBELL.

WHO IS MORTY SOBELL ?

MORTON SOBELL IS THE THIRD DEFENDANT

IN YOUR GRANDPARENTS' CASE.

THE KEY TO MORTY IS

HE WAS OFFERED THE CHANCE TO PLEAD GUILTY,

AND POINT THE FINGER AT YOUR GRANDFATHER.

HE REFUSED, AND FOR THAT HE SPENT 19 YEARS IN JAIL.

IT'S AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

MICHAEL HAS ASKED ME SOMETIMES,

"YOU KNOW SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW ?"

YEAH.

( laughing )

DO YOU ?

HE THINKS THAT I HAVE SECRETS WHICH I COULD IMPART TO THEM.

RIGHT, THAT MAYBE, YOU KNOW, IF YOU KNEW JULIUS,

COULD JULIUS HAVE BEEN--

WOULD IT BE SOMETHING THAT HE COULD BE WOULD BE CAPABLE OF ?

WAS HE CAPABLE ?

I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT TAKES,

WHAT CAPABILITY IT TAKES TO BE A SPY...

SO ALL YOU CAN SAY IS, YOU DON'T KNOW.

I HAVE NO PRIVATE KNOWLEDGE, THAT'S ALL I CAN SAY.

YOU KNOW PEOPLE ASK ME, "WAS HE INNOCENT ?"

AND, "YOU KNOW AS MUCH AS I DO."

( woman operatic singing )

THE EAST SIDE WAS NO PICNIC.

I WENT THROUGH SCHOOL WITH ETHEL.

WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY MONEY,

BUT ETHEL SKIPPED CLASSES BECAUSE SHE WAS SO BRIGHT.

THE BEST THING THAT HAPPENED THERE WAS WHEN ETHEL SANG.

AND THEY CAME IN FROM THE OTHER ROOMS,

THAT EVERYBODY WAS LISTENING.

AND WHEN I THINK OF IT I BEGIN TO CRY.

ETHEL WAS VERY, VERY SPECIAL.

I WENT TO A COUPLE OF PARTIES ON THE LOWER EAST SIDE.

I MET THEM THERE.

AND I WAS INVITED TO THEIR WEDDING.

( Ivy Meeropol ) WHAT WAS THAT LIKE ?

WELL, IT WAS AS JEWISH AS CAN BE WITHOUT THE ORTHODOX BULLSHIT.

IT WAS A JEWISH WEDDING.

THEY WE AS JEWISH AS THEY COME.

I MEAN YOU...

YOU COULD ALMOST SMELL THE PICKLED HERRING.

I FIRST MET JULIUS AT CITY COLLEGE.

I THINK THE YEAR WAS 1934 OR FIVE.

AT THAT TIME I WAS AN ACTIVIST ON THE CAMPUS,

AND SO I RAN INTO JULIE AT A MEETING

THAT THE YOUNG COMMUNIST LEAGUE HAD PUT TOGETHER.

THERE WAS A LOT OF CAMPUS ACTIVITY.

CITY COLLEGE IN THE '30s MAKES BERKELEY IN THE '60s LOOK PALE.

STARTING POINT OF MY POLITICS

WAS SEEING A MAN PICKING FOOD OUT OF A GARBAGE CAN.

I WAS 11 OR 12 AND MY DAD SAID TO ME,

"YOU'RE TOO YOUNG TO UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE ARE REDUCED TO THAT."

I SAID, "PAPA, I WANT TO KNOW NOW."

AND HE SAID, "SON, I CAN'T TELL YOU."

IT WASN'T UNTIL THREE OR FOUR YEARS LATER THAT

I RAN INTO THE YOUNG COMMUNISTS AND WHAT THEY SAID EXPLAINED

WHY THAT MAN WAS EATING OUT OF THE GARBAGE CAN.

( singing )

HELLO !

HOW ARE YOU ?

GOOD, HOW ARE YOU ?

IT IS SO TERRIFIC TO SEE YOU.

YOU TOO.

I JUST CAN'T BELIEVE IT.

IT'S 50 YEARS THAT JUST SEEMS TO SWIRL RIGHT BY.

I KNOW.

THE HOUSE OF DETENTION WHERE ETHEL AND I WERE JAILED

USED TO BE ON 6th AVENUE BETWEEN 9th AND 10th STREETS,

AND WHEN THE VAN CAME TO LOAD US UP

TO TAKE US TO COURT,

ETHEL AND JULIUS WOULD BE IN THAT VAN.

AND IT WAS PITCH BLACK IN THERE,

AND ONE TIME A PRISONER LIT A CIGARETTE

AND IN THE FLICKERING LIGHT WE SAW ETHEL AND JULIE

TRYING TO KISS THROUGH THAT GATE.

AFTER THE TRIAL, SHE WAS MOVED TO MY FLOOR

AND THAT GAVE ME THE OPPORTUNITY THEN TO BECOME FRIENDLY WITH HER

FOR THAT BRIEF TIME THAT SHE WAS THERE.

IN THOSE DAYS, WE HAD THIS GREAT FEELING

OF SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY,

AND IF WE WORKED TOGETHER AND WE LINKED ARMS WITH OTHER PEOPLE

WHO WANTED A BETTER WAY OF LIFE, WE WOULD GET IT.

AND WE WERE ACUTELY AWARE

THAT THINGS COULDN'T GO ON THE WAY THEY WERE.

I WOULD PASS LINES OF MEN

WAITING ON LINE FOR A SOUP KITCHEN TO OPEN,

HOURS BEFORE, THREADBARE, IN THE MID WINTER.

I SAW FAMILIES THAT WERE BEING EVICTED FROM THEIR APARTMENTS,

BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T PAY THEIR RENT.

YOU HAD TO BE DEAD FROM THE NECK UP NOT TO FEEL RADICAL,

THAT SOME-- A CHANGE WAS NECESSARY.

LISTEN, I'M GETTING UPSET.

( male ) Communism in reality is not a political party.

It is a way of life.

An evil and malignant way of life.

It reveals a condition akin to disease

that spreads like an epidemic.

And like an epidemic, a quarantine is necessary

to keep it from infecting this nation.

A LOT OF PEOPLE CHARACTERIZE THE TIME AS ROMANTIC

THAT PEOPLE WERE... DID IT...

YES, PEOPLE WERE ROMANTIC IN WHAT COULD BE DONE.

YOU DREAMED.

YOU DREAMED A LOT OF...

WHAT WOULD YOU DREAM OF ?

YOU DREAMED OF A SOCIALIST COUNTRY WHERE--

WHAT DID IT LOOK LIKE ?

THERE WASN'T HUNGER

AND YOU DIDN'T HAVE DISCRIMINATION AGAINST BLACKS.

SO WHAT YOU AND JULIUS AND YOUR GROUP OF FRIENDS

WERE FIGHTING FOR WAS A SOCIALIST WORLD.

A SOCIALIST WORLD, YEAH.

AND WE REALLY BELIEVED THAT THE SOVIET UNION WAS SUCH A MODEL.

NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.

AND WE REALLY BELIEVED THAT WITHOUT THE SOVIET UNION,

THE WORLD WAS GOING DOWN A HORRIBLE PATH.

CONSEQUENTLY, WE WOULD DEDICATE ALL OUR ENERGIES AND OUR LIVES,

IF NECESSARY, TO SEE TO IT THAT THE SOVIET UNION WASN'T SMASHED.

Communists have been, still are,

and always will be a menace to freedom,

to democratic ideals, to the worship of God,

and to America's way of life.

Victory will be assured once communists

are identified and exposed.

MY IMAGE OF JULIUS WAS AS A GOOD GUY,

BUT WHAT I CALLED A "DRIPNOSE."

IF A POLICEMAN RAISED HIS CLUB

HE WOULD SHAKE MORE THAN I WOULD SHAKE.

IT'S A VERY SUPERFICIAL THING,

BUT THAT IS TRULY THE WAY I FELT.

THAT'S WHY I WAS SO AMAZED BY THE WAY HE STOOD UP.

ABSOLUTELY FLABBERGASTED BY IT.

Senator, you have the distinction of having

coined a new word namely, "McCarthyism."

Now, how do you define McCarthyism, sir ?

Calling a man a Communist who is later proven to be one.

A lot of people may raise the question,

"why all this hullabaloo about being fair,

"particularly when the people you're investigating

are a bunch of traitors ?"

In fact, I've heard some people even say,

"after all, they're a bunch of rats.

why don't we go out and shoot them ?"

Well, I agree that the Communists are rats,

but on the other hand remember this:

When you go out to shoot rats, you've got to shoot straight.

WONDER IF THEY WALKED DOWN HERE,

NO, THEY MUST HAVE COME IN THE BACK.

NO, THERE'S PROBABLY A BACK ENTRANCE.

YEAH.

( door slamming )

THAT'S A SCARY SOUND.

IT IS.

IT MAKES ME SWEAT JUST BEING HERE.

YEAH, IT'S KIND OF TERRIFYING, RIGHT ?

YEAH.

SO HOW DO YOU THINK OUR LEGACY HELPED YOU

DECIDE TO BECOME A LAWYER ?

I THINK FROM THE BEGINNING

I NEVER HAD A SENSE THAT JUSTICE WAS EASY,

OR SOMETHING THAT YOU COULD COUNT ON,

OR SOMETHING THAT WOULD OCCUR UNLESS PEOPLE WORKED AT IT.

I GUESS I STARTED OFF WITH THIS SENSE OF

THAT THESE HUGE INJUSTICES OCCUR.

BEING IN HERE, I CAN'T HELP THINKING

ABOUT BEING THEIR LAWYER.

YOU KNOW, HOW THAT WOULD BE ?

I THINK PART OF THE REASON I WANTED TO GET INTO LAW

WHEN I WAS YOUNGER WAS THE SENSE OF,

"OH, I'M GONNA BE A LAWYER,

AND I'M GONNA PROVE THEIR INNOCENCE," YOU KNOW,

I'M SURE WE ALL THOUGHT ABOUT THAT WHEN WE WERE KIDS.

SAY WE FOUND, LIKE REAL PROOF

THAT THERE WAS CONVINCING EVIDENCE

THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE DONE SOMETHING,

DO YOU THINK IT WOULD CHANGE HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THEM ?

NO, I MEAN, NOT AT ALL.

FIRST OF ALL THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT LEVELS ON,

AT WHICH WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM WAS AN INJUSTICE.

YOU KNOW, YOU LOOK AT THE FACTS: NO MATTER WHAT,

I DO BELIEVE THAT THEY WERE FRAMED,

THAT THERE WAS SERIOUS PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT,

AND ALSO, I CAN'T REALLY IMAGINE ANYONE IN OUR FAMILY

BEING A COMPLETELY HAPLESS VICTIM, RIGHT ?

THAT'S NOT THE WAY ANY OF US ARE.

YEAH, YEAH.

I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THEY DID WHAT THEY WERE, YOU KNOW

CONVICTED OF BY ANY STRETCH,

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU KNOW I THINK YOU LOOK AT OUR FAMILY,

AND YOU SEE A LOT OF PEOPLE

THAT TAKE CONTROL OF THEIR LIVES.

I'D LIKE TO THINK THAT THEY WERE THE SAME WAY.

IT'S SO WEIRD TO PICTURE THE FACT THAT

LIKE NOBODY SITTING ON THESE BENCHES

WAS REALLY HERE FOR THEM, EITHER, YOU KNOW ?

NONE OF THE FAMILY, YOU KNOW ?

IT WAS PROBABLY MOST OF THE PEOPLE IN HERE

JUST WERE LOOKING FOR...

BLOOD.

BLOOD, YEAH.

( cheering and applause )

Ladies and gentlemen, friends,

I'd like to read you a poem

written by a good American:

"And when the Rosenbergs are dead

"and wrapped in shrouds of Cremlin red

"all future traitors will be aware

"that they will fry in the electric chair.

"The Rosenbergs must fry and die.

"If this death they should escape

"our starry banner will cease to fly.

"O' may God's lights spark the death

of this communist pair."

( male reporter ) The ring was first uncovered

following the arrest of Klaus Fuchs in England.

David Greenglass, Mrs. Rosenberg's brother,

confessed theft of the secrets

while stationed at the Los Alamos Atomic Project.

He later became the government's chief witness

in the prosecution of Sobell and the Rosenbergs.

( male ) For half a century now

he's known that his false testimony

cost his sister her life.

( male interviewer ) How do you think history will remember you ?

As the spy that turned his family in.

Do you care ?

Not particularly.

I don't care.

( Michael Meeropol ) AS A YOUNGSTER,

I ALWAYS RESERVED ALL MY HATRED FOR DAVE GREENGLASS,

DAVID AND RUTH GREENGLASS.

THIS IS SO INTERESTING:

WHEN I WAS EIGHT YEARS OLD AND LIVING IN THE SHELTER,

I HAD BEEN PUNISHED,

AND I ENDED UP BEING ALONE,

WHILE ALL KIDS WERE PLAYING ALL DAY OUTSIDE

AND I COULDN'T PLAY,

I WAS JUST ALONE INSIDE AND I SPENT THE WHOLE TIME

TALKING ABOUT THE KINDS OF VENGEANCE

I WOULD ENACT ON DAVID AND RUTH GREENGLASS.

( Ivy Meeropol ) WHAT WERE YOU GONNA DO ?

I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER AT THE TIME, YOU KNOW.

I DO KNOW THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I HAVE ALWAYS AS A KID--

AND I GUESS EVEN TO TODAY...

I HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED IN EXPOSURE AS A TREMENDOUS THING.

YOU KNOW, PROVING THAT SOMEBODY LIED PUBLICALLY

IS ALWAYS VERY IMPORTANT TO ME,

AS OPPOSED TO SOMEBODY ELSE

MIGHT LIKE TO SMASH THEM IN THE FACE.

YOU KNOW, SO FOR INSTANCE, DAVID GREENGLASS,

WHAT I WANTED TO DO IS FIND HIM

WHEN HE WAS OUT OF JAIL

AND STAND BEHIND HIM AND YELL VERY LOUD, "EX-CON !"

AND OF COURSE, I HAD SEEN MOVIES

WHERE PEOPLE WHO WERE IN DANGER OF BEING EXPOSED

AS EX-CONS WOULD BE VERY UPSET.

SO I THOUGHT HE WOULD SAY, "OH PLEASE, DON'T TELL ANYBODY."

EX-CON !

WHAT DID YOU SAY, EX-CON ?!

YOU KNOW, I WAS THINKING, "WOULDN'T THAT BE GREAT ?"

REVENGE, I LOVE REVENGE, REVENGE IS SO SWEET.

I REMEMBER WHEN I CALLED YOU FROM COLLEGE FRESHMAN YEAR,

AND I'D JUST STARTED READING ABOUT EVERYTHING.

THE FULL IMPACT OF WHAT DAVID GREENGLASS DID, HIT ME

AND I WAS CRYING AND I SAID,

"WHY DON'T WE GO FIND DAVID GREENGLASS,

THAT FUCKING BASTARD, LET'S GO GET HIM.

LET'S GO, AT LEAST GO KNOCK ON HIS DOOR,

AND SAY, "HERE WE ARE."

( Abe Osheroff ) GREENGLASS ?

PATHETIC CREATURE.

IF I WERE KIND, I WOULD PITY HIM.

LONG BEFORE THIS ALL HAPPENED AND I MET THAT KID,

HE WAS A SKUNK.

HE WAS AN ABSOLUTE SKUNK THE MINUTE I LOOKED AT HIM.

FORGETTING ALL THE POLITICS,

HE WAS JUST A SELFISH, LITTLE SKUNK.

BUT IT'S THIS CRUEL IRONY:

I WOULD LOVE TO TALK TO ANY OF ETHEL OR JULIUS' SIBLINGS

AND THEY'RE ALL GONE, EXCEPT HE STILL LIVES.

GRANDMA'S GONE TOO.

SHE WAS A WITCH.

TESSIE.

ABSOLUTE WITCH.

COLD-HEARTED BITCH.

SO YOUR FIRST INTRODUCTION TO GREENGLASS WAS IN THE COURTROOM.

RIGHT, RIGHT.

AND WHAT WAS THAT LIKE ?

WELL, THERE WAS THIS WAY HE WAS SORT OF SMILING, YOU KNOW--

WHAT WAS THAT ?

THAT WAS WEIRD, YOU KNOW.

HE ALWAYS HAD THAT, WITH HIS FACE.

A SMIRK.

IT WAS ALWAYS THAT, NO MATTER WHAT.

AT TIMES IT WAS SO INAPPROPRIATE, YOU KNOW ?

WHEN HE'S TALKING ABOUT THESE SERIOUS THINGS.

I FELT SOMETHING WAS WRONG HERE, WITH THIS GUY.

DO YOU REMEMBER ETHEL,

OR TALKING ABOUT WHAT DAVID WAS DOING ?

YES.

SHE COULDN'T UNDERSTAND IT.

SHE HAD ALWAYS BEEN HIS BIG SISTER,

AND SHE HAD ALWAYS THOUGHT OF HIM

AS THIS CUTE LITTLE KID.

SHE COULD NOT UNDERSTAND HOW HE COULD DO SUCH A THING.

BUT SHE ALSO KNEW WHAT PRESSURE HE WAS UNDER,

BECAUSE SHE HAD BEEN UNDER THE SAME PRESSURE.

THE FBI KEPT AFTER HIM,

AND THEY WERE...

BUILDING A KIND OF STEEL TRAP,

AND HE NEVER SAW IT.

WHAT HE WAS CONCERNED ABOUT WAS THAT THEY NOT ARREST HIS WIFE,

WHO WAS THEN ILL, AND HE HAD A NEW BABY.

AND SO HE THOUGHT THE EASIEST WAY OUT OF THIS THING,

"I'LL TELL THEM WHAT THEY WANT TO KNOW."

AND THAT'S WHEN THE WHOLE THING EXPLODED.

( male reporter ) Ethel typed my notes.

"That was Greenglass' story in 1951,

and he stuck to it for half a century.

but now he has a different recollection.

I don't know who typed it, frankly.

To this day I can't even remember

that the typing took place.

( male interviewer ) And did Cohen encourage you to testify that

you saw Ethel typing up the notes ?

Of course he did.

Did you realize at the time, or when you were testifying,

the importance of this--

The evidence you were providing ?

I had no idea that it was important at all.

I MEAN, HE COULD'VE SAID,

"NO, I'M JUST GONNA TELL YOU THE TRUTH."

BUT HE WAS ACTUALLY WILLING TO EMBELLISH ON THE TRUTH

IN ORDER TO HELP OUT THE GOVERNMENT.

AND SO HE GETS WORSE AND WORSE.

YOU KNOW, HE'S NO LONGER JUST A FRIGHTENED GUY.

HE'S A WILLING COOPERATOR

WITH THE GOVERNMENT'S MACHINATIONS.

( Ivy Meeropol ) YOU STILL DON'T HAVE ANY URGE NOW

TO EVER TALK TO HIM OR...

NO, I MEAN WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT ?

WHAT WOULD HAPPEN, YOU KNOW ?

YELL AT HIM TO HIS FACE ?

YOU KNOW, BIG DEAL, YOU KNOW.

YEAH...

AND WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO DO, YELL AT HIM TO HIS FACE ?

WELL, I WOULD LIKE TO...

TALK TO HIM AND MAKE HIM CONFESS.

WELL, I MEAN, CONFESS TO WHAT ?

HE'S ALREADY CONFESSED ON 60 MINUTES,

YOU SAW HIM CONFESS.

YEAH, BUT IN SUCH A--

I GUESS I WOULD WANT HIM TO CONFESS AND SHOW REMORSE.

WELL, YOU CAN'T MAKE HIM SHOW REMORSE.

IT'S SO CRAZY THAT ALL THIS TIME

HE'S LIVED NOT THAT FAR FROM ME.

I MEAN, THIS WAS SUCH A SHORT DRIVE.

IS THIS HIS STREET ?

( male ) THIS IS, UH, THE STREET BEFORE HIS STREET.

THE STREET BEFORE HIS STREET.

WE'RE GONNA BE THERE IN ABOUT 30 SECONDS.

I'M NERVOUS.

UH OH, HERE WE GO, TO YOUR LEFT.

WHAT, WHAT ?!

THAT'S HIS HOUSE ?

LOOK AT HOW ALL THE BLINDS ARE SHUT LIKE NOBODY'S HOME.

THEY'VE GOT ONE OF THOSE SECURITY SYSTEMS THERE.

MY GOD, I MEAN, IT'S JUST LIKE

THE MOST INNOCUOUS PLACE YOU COULD IMAGINE, YOU KNOW.

THERE'S NOTHING THAT EVEN SAYS ANYTHING

ABOUT THE PERSON WHO LIVES THERE.

SO THIS IS WHERE HE ENDED UP.

WOW.

WONDER IF HIS NEIGHBORS KNOW.

GOING TO SEE HIS HOUSE JUST PART OF LETTING GO

OF THE FACT THAT HE JUST REPRESENTED THIS...

ULTIMATE EVIL.

I FEEL KIND OF NAUSEOUS.

WOW.

( Ivy Meeropol ) SO, DAD, I WANT TO TELL YOU SOMETHING THAT I--

THAT I DID.

ALRIGHT.

I WENT TO DAVID GREENGLASS' HOUSE.

HOLY SHIT.

I JUST DROVE BY THOUGH.

OH.

YOU FOUND IT ?

I FOUND HIS HOUSE...

HOW THE HELL DID YOU FIND IT ?

UMM... WE HAVE OUR WAYS.

UNBELIEVABLE.

I WOULDN'T HAVE DREAMED THAT IN A MILLION YEARS

THAT YOU WOULD "A" HAVE FOUND IT, AND "B" DRIVEN BY IT.

THE LAST THING I WANTED WAS FOR HIM

TO WALK OUT THAT FRONT DOOR.

WELL, IF YOU DID, YOU COULD'VE FILMED HIM AND DRIVEN AWAY.

THAT'S TRUE.

MAYBE WE'LL GO BACK.

WHO'S THE "WE" ?

NOT ME.

I HAVE NO INTEREST.

"1950.

FOUND IN THE CLOSET, 8:18 AT NIGHT."

THIS MUST HAVE BEEN THE FIRST TIME THE FBI CLEANED OUT,

STARTED TO CLEAN OUT THEIR APARTMENT.

EVIDENTLY IT WAS USED TO CONFIRM THE FACT

THEY HAD CONNECTIONS WITH THE COMMUNIST PARTY.

SO THIS "SAVE A SPANISH REPUBLICAN CHILD"

WAS PROOF OF EVILDOINGS.

PROSECUTION INTRODUCED THIS FACSIMILE JELLO BOX

TO REPRESENT THE RECOGNITION SIGNAL

SUPPOSEDLY DEVISED BY JULIUS ROSENBERG,

FOR GREENGLASS AND HARRY GOLD.

ROY COHN IS CREDITED WITH SELECTING

IMITATION RASPBERRY FOR THE FACSIMILE.

I'M TOUCHING IT.

YOU KNOW I NEVER ASKED MY DAD

IF THEY EVER EVEN HAD JELLO.

OH, LOOK AT THIS, THE CONSOLE TABLE.

THE ROSENBERGS KEPT SAYING, "WE BOUGHT IT AT MACY'S."

THE PROSECUTION WAS SAYING IT WAS A GIFT FROM THE RUSSIANS,

AND IT HAD SOME SPECIAL THING UNDERNEATH IT

THAT YOU COULD TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS WITH.

THEY ACTUALLY DISCOVERED BEFORE THE EXECUTION

THAT THE ROSENBERGS WERE TELLING THE TRUTH,

THAT THEY HAD BOUGHT IT AT MACY'S,

BUT JUDGE KAUFMAN REFUSED TO HEAR THE NEW EVIDENCE.

THAT'S THE LENS MOLD.

LOOK, DAVID GREENGLASS, JUNE 15th, 1950.

THIS IS THE CROSS SECTION OF THE A-BOMB.

THAT WOULD HELP YOU DEVELOP THE A-BOMB ?

OH MY GOD.

THIS IS A LETTER THAT ETHEL WROTE TO MY DAD.

"MY SWEET MICHAEL BOY, I HAVE JUST HAD MY DINNER

"AND FEEL LIKE HAVING A LITTLE VISIT WITH YOU.

"YESTERDAY I WENT TO COURT

"AND THERE I SAW YOUR DEAR DADDY

"AND WHAT DO YOU THINK WE SPOKE OF ?

"YOU AND ROBBY OF COURSE,

AND OF HOW MUCH WE MISS YOU AND WHAT WE CAN DO..."

UMM...

"AND WHAT WE CAN DO TO KEEP YOU BOTH HAPPY AND HEALTHY.

"FIRST, I WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT DADDY LOOKED VERY NICE

AND SAID HE FELT WELL."

UMM...

"HE IS THE SAME WONDERFUL DADDY THAT YOU KNEW

"WHO ALWAYS LOVED BOTH HIS BOYS

"AND WOULD ASK FOR NOTHING MORE NOW

"THAN TO BE BACK LIVING AND PLAYING

AND HAVING FUN WITH THEM."

"MANY, MANY HUGS AND KISSES TO MY DEAR CHILDREN

"WHOSE MOMMY AND DADDY...

"LOVES THEM VERY MUCH,

YOUR MOMMY, ETHEL."

( cello playing )

"We told you the truth."

"We are innocent.

"The truth does not change.

We now again solemnly declare our innocence."

THIS IS ROBBY AND I VISITING SING SING.

THAT'S MANNY BLOCH.

FIRST TIME WE VISITED THEM WAS IN AUGUST '51,

AND WE VISITED THEM

FOR ALMOST TWO FULL YEARS AFTER THAT.

( Ivy Meeropol ) DO YOU REMEMBER THE FIRST VISIT ?

OH, I REMEMBER THE FIRST VISIT LIKE IT WAS YESTERDAY.

WE SAW THEM SEPARATELY, AND WE HID.

WE HID TO MAKE BELIEVE WE WEREN'T THERE

AND MANNY WAS SUPPOSED TO SAY, "OH THEY COULDN'T COME,

AND WE GIGGLED AND RAN OUT,

AND MY MOTHER, WE BOTH VISITED HER,

WE BOTH GAVE HER A HUG SAYING, "YOU LOOK SMALLER."

AND OF COURSE SHE IMMEDIATELY REACTED,

"WELL, IT'S BECAUSE YOU'VE GROWN SO MUCH."

I REMEMBER ONE CONVERSATION WHICH WAS,

"LOOK, ARE YOU REALLY INNOCENT ?"

THAT WAS ONE CONVERSATION THAT WAS VERY BRIEF.

OF COURSE THEY RESPONDED, "BUT OF COURSE WE ARE," YOU KNOW.

LATER SOMEBODY TOLD ME THEY WERE QUITE UPSET

THAT I ASKED THAT QUESTION,

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, EVEN WE WOULD DOUBT THEM.

REMEMBER, I'M THE ONE WHO WHEN I WENT INTO THE JAIL

AT THE AGE OF NINE, I SAID TO THE GUARD,

"CAN I SEE THE ELECTRIC CHAIR ?"

YOU WANTED TO...

I WASN'T AFRAID.

I WANTED TO SHOW I WASN'T AFRAID OF IT.

ALSO REMEMBER I WAS YOUNG.

I DIDN'T KNOW.

WELL, THEY WEREN'T SCARED.

EVERY TIME WE SAW THEM THEY WEREN'T SCARED.

AND HERE WE ARE, MUST HAVE BEEN IN MAY.

FLOWERS FOR MOTHER'S DAY.

WE GOT OUT OF THE PARKING LOT AT SING SING.

THE NEWSPAPER REPORTERS GOT US.

LOOK AT HOW HAPPY ROBBY IS.

HE'S GOING TO SEE MOMMY.

THAT'S REALLY A GREAT TESTIMONY

TO HOW PLEASANT AND WONDERFUL THE VISITS WERE.

WHICH THEY WERE, I MEAN, THEY WERE REALLY IMPORTANT.

AND THIS IS THE LETTER I WROTE TO EISENHOWER.

DO YOU REMEMBER WRITING THE LETTER ?

OH, ABSOLUTELY, I REMEMBER WRITING THE LETTER.

HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT ?

SOMEBODY GAVE ME A PIECE OF PAPER

WITH A TYPED SCRIPT ON IT AND SAID, "PLEASE COPY THIS."

I WENT DOWN TO WASHINGTON FOR A DEMONSTRATION.

HANDED THE LETTER TO THE WHITE HOUSE GUARD.

ON FILM.

GOT A CHANCE TO SAY "NO COMMENT."

DO YOU REMEMBER FEELING LIKE THIS LETTER

COULD ACTUALLY CHANGE SOMETHING ?

I DIDN'T.

NO, I KNEW THAT THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE

TRYING TO GET CLEMENCY.

AND I, YOU KNOW,

I JUST WAS HOPING AGAINST HOPE THAT IT WOULD WORK.

WOW.

SO WHEN YOU KNEW ETHEL, WAS IT ALREADY CLEAR

THAT NO ONE IN THE FAMILY

WAS GOING TO TAKE CARE OF MY FATHER ?

NO, IT WAS NOT.

SOMETIME DURING THAT PERIOD, HER MOTHER TOOK THE BOYS,

BUT THE SOCIAL WORKER TOOK THE BOYS AWAY FROM HER MOTHER

BECAUSE SHE WAS SCREAMING AT THEM,

AND SHE WAS TELLING THEM--

YOU KNOW THESE WERE CHILDREN WHO--

YOUNG AND MISSING THEIR PARENTS,

AND THERE MUST HAVE BEEN SOME MISBEHAVIOR

SHE COULDN'T COPE WITH, AND SHE SCREAMED AT THEM,

"YOU'RE GONNA END UP IN THE ELECTRIC CHAIR

JUST LIKE YOUR PARENTS."

SO WHEN I KNEW HER,

THEY WERE ALREADY IN A CHILDREN'S SHELTER.

AND THAT WAS A PRETTY CHAOTIC THING.

I DON'T KNOW IF THEY EVER TALK ABOUT IT, BUT...

MY FATHER REMEMBERS THAT AS ONE OF THE WORST TIMES OF HIS LIFE.

RIGHT, IT WAS ONE OF THE WORST TIMES OF HIS MOTHER'S LIFE.

( Ivy Meeropol ) YOU KNOW, IF I REALLY THINK HONESTLY ABOUT WHAT LED ME

TO START LOOKING AT THE FAMILY MORE CLOSELY WAS FIRST

WHEN I REALIZED HOW MANY SIBLINGS

THERE WERE OF ETHEL AND JULIUS', AND THEN SAYING,

WELL, WHERE WERE THESE PEOPLE

AND WHY DIDN'T ANYONE TAKE IN MY DAD AND ROBBY ?

HELLO, MY NAME'S IVY MEEROPOL.

I'M MICHAEL MEEROPOL'S DAUGHTER.

( chuckle )

I'M GOOD, HOW ARE YOU ?

SO, UM, I'VE ACTUALLY BEEN TRYING TO TRACK DOWN

FAMILY MEMBERS AND MEET PEOPLE

THAT NO ONE IN MY FAMILY'S EVER, EVER SPOKEN TO.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT ME TRYING TO TALK

TO SOME OF THESE RELATIVES ?

I THINK THAT'S FINE.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'RE GONNA MAKE ANY FRIENDS.

RIGHT.

WOULD YOU EVEN CONSIDER TALKING ON THE PHONE WITH ME

AND LETTING, SO THAT I WOULD HAVE

THE STORIES JUST FROM YOU

AND THAT I WOULDN'T HAVE TO...

OH, YOU WOULDN'T EVEN WANT YOUR VOICE INVOLVED ?

AND YOU DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THEM,

BECAUSE THEY'RE TOO PAINFUL ?

RIGHT.

NO, I DON'T--

I HAVE TO BE HONEST,

A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO TALK TO ME.

PEOPLE ARE, I MEAN, THEY'RE AFRAID.

I MEAN, MAYBE I CAME INTO THIS A LITTLE NAIVELY

THINKING WHAT, 50 YEARS LATER,

WHY CAN'T WE OVERCOME THIS GREAT DIVIDE IN OUR FAMILY

AND TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED ?

( Michael Meeropol ) UNCLE OSCAR, AUNT ETHEL'S HUSBAND

WAS SCARED OUT OF HIS TREE WHEN HIS BROTHER-IN-LAW WAS ARRESTED

AND THAT WAS WHY THEY DIDN'T DO ANYTHING PUBLIC

LIKE TAKE ROBBY AND ME IN

BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE RUINED THEIR BUSINESS,

THEIR LOCAL BUSINESS.

THEY PROBABLY WOULD HAVE LOST ALL THEIR CUSTOMERS,

AND AUNT ETHEL NEVER FORGAVE HERSELF,

AND SHE THOUGHT IN FACT THAT ROBBY AND I WERE ANGRY AT HER,

AND WE NEVER WERE ANGRY AT HER FOR DOING IT AT ALL,

YOU KNOW, BUT SHE THOUGHT THAT.

FOR WHAT NOT TAKING YOU IN ?

FOR NOT TAKING US IN, BUT WE UNDERSTOOD THAT TOTALLY.

WELL, I WAS CALLING BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN TRYING

TO TRACK DOWN WHERE SOME OF MY GRANDPARENTS THINGS MIGHT BE

'CAUSE I KNOW THAT AUNT ETHEL

HAD GOTTEN SOME OF THEIR THINGS AFTER THEY DIED.

UHH, WELL, ETHEL'S SHOES,

I SAW PHOTOGRAPHS AT HER APARTMENT,

OF HER SHOWING THAT SHE HAD ETHEL'S SHOES.

WELL, IT'S NOT ABOUT,

IT'S NOT ABOUT BENEFITING MYSELF,

IT'S ABOUT JUST FINDING OUT MORE INFORMATION.

OH YEAH, OF COURSE, I'VE CALLED EVERYONE.

I'VE CALLED EVERYONE ON THE GREENGLASS SIDE

AND THE ROSENBERG SIDE.

EVERYONE IN THE FAMILY SEEMS TO BE ASHAMED

OF WHO, YOU KNOW, WHO WE ALL ARE.

WELL, I THINK THAT'S REALLY, WHEN YOU SAID,

"WHAT DOES IT TELL YOU THAT NOBODY WANTS TO TALK ABOUT IT ?"

YOU KNOW, IT TELLS ME HOW BAD

IT MUST HAVE BEEN, REALLY.

IT'S-- I GUESS JUST HARD TO ACCEPT, FOR ME.

This is my grandfather, Julius Rosenberg,

who my brother's middle name was named after.

And this is Julius and Ethel Rosenberg together,

and my middle name was named after Ethel.

This is the tv news

and we're interviewing Jenny Meeropol here.

How old are you, Jenny ?

Five and a half.

What are your parents' names ?

Ellie and Robby.

I'm Ivy Meeropol, and I'm interviewing Greg Meeropol.

How old are you, Greg ?

Seven and-- eight and a half.

Do you have any sisters or brothers ?

Yes, I have a sister, Ivy.

YOU KNOW, THIS WAS A FAMILY THAT I WAS BROUGHT INTO,

AND THAT I ONLY THINK OF YOU KNOW,

MOM AND DAD AS MY MOM AND DAD.

THE WOMAN WHO GAVE BIRTH TO ME

JUST DID THAT, GAVE BIRTH TO ME,

AND I JUST FEEL THAT THIS IS MY FAMILY

AND I WOULD DIE FOR THEM,

AND EVEN THOUGH I NEVER MET JULIUS AND ETHEL,

I STILL HAVE THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT PASSION FOR THEM,

AND YOU KNOW, AND WILL DEFEND THEM.

SUNNYVALE, CALIFORNIA.

THIS IS A LONG WAY FROM THE LOWER EAST SIDE, HUH ?

THAT'S WHERE HIS FAMILY'S FROM--

OUR FAMILY'S FROM, I SHOULD SAY.

( Ivy Meeropol ) WE'RE GOING TO MEET BARON ROBERTS.

HE IS JULIUS' BROTHER, DAVID'S SON,

BUT THEY CHANGED THEIR NAME TO ROBERTS.

THIS IS THE FIRST RELATIVE OF MINE

THAT I'VE MET ON THE ROSENBERG SIDE.

HI !

HOW ARE YOU DOING ?

I'M GOOD HOW ARE YOU ?

GOOD.

I KNOW, "DON'T LOOK AT THE CAMERA".

DON'T MIND MY FRIEND.

COME IN.

THIS IS SUE, MY WIFE.

HI.

I'M IVY.

I'M OLIVIA.

OKAY, FOLKS, AND WE'RE BACK TO THE SHOW.

WE'RE BACK.

SO, HOW DOES IT FEEL TO MEET A NEW COUSIN ?

THAT'S ME.

WELL, I JUST DON'T GET THAT FAMILY PART.

RIGHT, YOUR GRANDPA ON YOUR DAD'S SIDE

WAS THE BROTHER OF MY GRANDPA.

INTERESTING.

AND SO, MY DAD'S DAD WAS NAMED JULIUS,

AND THEY WERE BROTHERS.

AND YOU HEARD THE WHOLE STORY ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO JULIUS.

IT WAS A VERY SAD STORY.

HE "BZZZ".

OHH, YEAH.

"BZZZ."

THAT MUST BE REALLY SAD, TO GRANDPA.

IT WAS VERY SAD FOR YOUR GRANDPA.

I THINK HE WAS SAD FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE BECAUSE OF THAT.

YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN CURIOUS ABOUT WHY

YOUR DAD CHANGED YOUR NAME FROM ROSENBERG TO ROBERTS.

YEAH, I'D ASKED HIM ABOUT THAT

AND WHILE HE DIDN'T TALK TOO MUCH IN DETAIL

ABOUT ANY OF THE BACKGROUND,

HE DID SAY THAT AFTER THE EXECUTION,

HE WAS FEELING LIKE IT'S JUST NOT THE RIGHT THING

TO HAVE THAT NAME RIGHT NOW, AND HE WAS CONCERNED ABOUT,

YOU KNOW, HIS FUTURE,

AND SO HE CHANGED IT TO ROBERTS.

NOW, HOW MUCH OF THAT WAS ALSO THE INFLUENCE OF MY MOTHER,

BECAUSE SHE WAS THE MORE PARANOID ABOUT THINGS,

BUT AT THAT TIME EVERYBODY WAS PARANOID.

WHAT WAS THE STORY THAT SHE WOULD TELL ABOUT MY GRANDMOTHER

ASKING SHE AND YOUR DAD TO TAKE IN MY DAD AND ROBBY ?

SHE WOULD PUT ON A SORT OF STOIC VENEER

AND TALK ABOUT HOW SHE WENT UP TO SING SING

AT ETHEL'S REQUEST,

AND THAT ETHEL HAD ASKED HER

TO ADOPT YOUR FATHER AND YOUR UNCLE

AND SHE SAID, "NO." THAT'S HOW SHE RELATED IT,

AND AS A KID, AGAIN, I HEARD THIS A MILLION TIMES,

HOW SHE'D KEEP REPEATING IT.

AND IT WAS SO CLEAR, ESPECIALLY LOOKING BACK ON IT,

THIS WAS EATING HER UP INSIDE.

YEAH.

BUT I DO FEEL A SENSE OF,

SOMEWHAT SHAME FOR MY MOTHER'S BEHAVIOR,

NOT ADOPTING YOUR FATHER AND YOUR UNCLE.

THAT WAS THE OTHER THING,

WHEN I STARTED LOOKING INTO THIS:

IT WAS, NOBODY WENT TO THEIR FUNERAL.

EXCEPT FOR GRANDMA SOPHIE.

YOU'RE KIDDING ?

MY FATHER DIDN'T GO TO THEIR FUNERAL ?

NO.

IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE I'M SITTING HERE

TALKING TO YOU ABOUT HOW THESE PEOPLE SHOULD APOLOGIZE AND...

I'M SORRY.

I KNOW.

IT'S LIKE, I'M THE ONE WHO SHOULD APOLOGIZE.

WHY YOU SHOULDN'T--

THERE'S NO REASON YOU SHOULD APOLOGIZE.

WHO'S LEFT TO APOLOGIZE ?

WELL, THAT'S TRUE.

IT'S TRUE.

I KNOW.

I WAS GONNA APOLOGIZE.

SOME PEOPLE WON'T EVEN TALK TO YOU, THAT'S RIDICULOUS.

YOU KNOW, SO I'M SORRY.

IT'S UNACCEPTABLE.

( music )

( cello playing )

IT'S THAT CORNER HOUSE WITH THE AIR CONDITIONER,

I REMEMBER SEEING THE AIR CONDITIONER

IT'S THE CORNER WITH THE AIR CONDITIONER.

THERE IT IS.

BUILDING "G" THAT'S WHAT IT IS, IT'S 11-E IN BUILDING "G".

GENERAL ELECTRIC.

IS THAT HOW YOU REMEMBER IT ?

NO, THAT'S WHAT MOM SAID.

MOM WOULD ALWAYS CALL IT GENERAL ELECTRIC.

AND THAT'S HOW YOU WOULD REMEMBER IT ?

NO, THAT'S HOW I'VE REMEMBERED IT NOW.

THEN, I JUST, YOU KNOW, THIS WAS THE BUILDING

YOU CAME IN THROUGH THE STAIRS AND YOU WALKED IN HERE.

( male on intercom ) Hello.

HELLO, MR. LIN ?

THIS IS THE MEEROPOLS WE'RE COMING UP TO 11-E.

Okay.

THANK YOU, COULD YOU BUZZ US IN ?

( buzzer )

THANK YOU.

AND THE ELEVATOR IS THE SAME DAMN ELEVATOR.

SLOW DOWN, DAD.

NO WAY.

I HAVE NO SLOW IN ME.

YOU'RE REAL EXCITED, DAD ?

( laughing )

YES, LUCKILY THIS WILL BE EDITED.

LET'S BE DIGNIFIED.

DIGNIFIED.

ACTUALLY WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT

THOSE FUCKING FBI AGENTS RODE THIS SAME DAMN ELEVATOR.

THAT'S TRUE.

ON JUNE, WHATEVER IT WAS, JULY 17th.

MAYBE MORE THAN ONCE.

YEAH, TWICE.

HELLO, I'M IVY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THANK YOU, ROBERT.

HI, I'M MICHAEL, HOW DO YOU DO ?

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR LETTING US DO THIS.

MY NAME IS MICHAEL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

( speaking Chinese )

I CAN'T PRONOUNCE WELL.

HOW DO YOU DO, THIS IS MY BROTHER, ROBERT.

DO YOU KNOW THE STORY ?

I DON'T KNOW, YOUR PARENTS...

WE WERE VERY YOUNG...

OUR PARENTS LIVED IN THIS APARTMENT

AND WE WERE VERY YOUNG CHILDREN HERE.

AND THEY WERE ARRESTED WHEN WE WERE VERY YOUNG,

AND SO WE THEN LEFT THE APARTMENT.

DO YOU REMEMBER ?

I DO, BECAUSE I WAS SEVEN YEARS OLD.

THIS WAS THE LIVING ROOM.

THIS WAS THE LIVING ROOM AND THE DINING ROOM

AND THE CONSOLE TABLE WAS PROBABLY RIGHT THERE,

BUT I DON'T REMEMBER THAT.

( Ivy Meeropol ) WANNA GO IN THE KITCHEN ?

( Michael ) SURE.

THIS IS THE FAMOUS PICTURE RIGHT ?

YES, THAT'S RIGHT, ABSOLUTELY, THERE IS A FAMOUS PICTURE.

THAT'S PROBABLY A NEW REFRIGERATOR.

BUT THE SINK IS PROBABLY THE SAME.

THAT'S AMAZING.

YEAH, THAT'S THE SINK.

I BET THAT'S THE SAME SINK.

THERE'S A RELATIVELY FAMOUS PICTURE

WHERE YOUR GRANDMOTHER MADE THAT VERY SUBSTANTIAL GESTURE

IN AN EFFORT TO FIGHT BACK AGAINST THE PROPAGANDA.

( Ivy Meeropol ) SHE HAD TO SHOW HERSELF AS A GOOD WIFE AND MOTHER IN THE KITCHEN.

RIGHT, AND THAT WE ARE JUST ORDINARY AMERICANS

AND WE DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS STUFF

WHICH WAS A GREAT SHOW OF LOYALTY WITH DAD IN JAIL.

THAT WAS VERY, VERY CRUCIAL.

DIDN'T WORK OF COURSE.

SHE WAS STANDING THERE IN A HOUSE DRESS WITH A DISH TOWEL.

YEAH, YEAH.

DISH TOWEL.

( Robert Meeropol ) THAT'S RIGHT, RIGHT AT THAT SPOT.

RIGHT ABSOLUTELY AT THAT SPOT, REALLY SOMETHING.

I'M JUST IMPRESSED WITH HOW HOT IT IS,

I MEAN, I JUST KEEP THINKING ABOUT, BOY.

WHAT IT MUST HAVE BEEN LIKE IN THE SUMMER.

THERE ARE TWO ROOMS.

I THOUGHT THERE WAS ANOTHER ROOM.

THIS IS THE CRAZIEST THING.

I WAS ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE THAT THERE WERE TWO ROOMS HERE.

THIS IS MY ROOM, MY BED WAS RIGHT THERE.

SO YOU HAD THE BEDROOM.

I HAD THE BEDROOM, AND YOU MUST HAVE

MAYBE HAD A CRIB IN HERE SOMEWHERE.

MMM-HMM.

AND THEY SLEPT OUT IN THE...

IT'S UNBELIEVABLE, KIDS THINK OF THEMSELVES

AS THE CENTER OF THE DAMN UNIVERSE.

AND I DIDN'T-- I ASSUMED THEY HAD ANOTHER BEDROOM,

AND ALL THEY HAD WAS THE LIVING ROOM.

UNBELIEVABLE.

IT WAS REALLY FUN LIVING IN HERE,

THE OUTSIDE STUFF, IN THE PARK,

WALKING AROUND IN THE COURTYARD AND BEING IN THIS APARTMENT.

ALL ASPECTS OF IT WERE REALLY NICE.

SO YOU REMEMBER IT AS A HAPPY TIME.

ABSOLUTELY, IT WAS VERY HAPPY.

BUT I DID, I MEAN, CERTAINLY--

I GOT A JOLT WHEN I THOUGHT ABOUT

THOSE FBI AGENTS IN THAT ELEVATOR.

BECAUSE YOU-- WHERE WERE YOU WHEN THEY CAME IN ?

I WAS RIGHT IN THE FRONT THERE BY THE WINDOW, SITTING DOWN,

MAY HAVE BEEN EVEN IN THE KITCHEN

BECAUSE THAT WAS WHERE THE RADIO WAS,

LISTENING TO THE RADIO.

LISTENING TO "THE LONE RANGER"

AND THAT WAS THE THING WITH THEY TURNED THE RADIO OFF,

I TURNED IT ON...

AND I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY OF THEM THERE WERE,

MAYBE THERE WERE FOUR OF THEM OR THREE OF THEM

AND THEY FILLED THE PLACE UP,

BECAUSE IT SEEMED LIKE THE PLACE WAS JUST MOBBED WITH PEOPLE.

YEAH, IN FACT,

I DID THINK THAT THE FBI AGENTS

WHEN THEY WALKED IN AT FIRST

WERE SOME OF DADDY'S FRIENDS UNTIL THEY ARRESTED HIM.

GOD.

I ASKED MOM "IS DADDY COMING HOME ?"

SHE SAID "NOT TONIGHT."

I REMEMBER SAYING TO THE FBI AGENT,

I LISTEN TO YOU ON THE RADIO, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

THEN THAT WAS IT HE WAS NEVER IN THIS APARTMENT AGAIN ?

NEVER IN THIS APARTMENT AGAIN, THAT'S RIGHT.

AFTER JULY 17th, 1950, HE NEVER SAW THIS APARTMENT.

UNBELIEVABLE.

WOW.

THANK YOU FOR DOING THIS, DEAR.

( male on speaker ) This is the story of the atomic spies.

There probably has never been an espionage operation

that so profoundly changed the course of world politics.

Spies: Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.

Code names: Liberal and Ethel.

Provided Soviets with stolen defensive military documents.

Suspicion: Julius Rosenberg an anchored spy,

Ethel Rosenberg as a supportive wife.

I WOULD ARGUE THAT THE REASON WE'RE TALKING ABOUT

THE ROSENBERG CASE TODAY, 50 YEARS LATER,

IS BECAUSE OF THE SECRET OF THE ATOMIC BOMB.

WITHOUT THE SECRET OF THE ATOMIC BOMB

WE WOULDN'T BE TALKING ABOUT IT.

THAT'S THE CORE OF THE CASE,

THAT'S WHY THERE WERE EXECUTIONS.

( Ivy Meeropol ) THAT'S WHY THEY SAID THEY WERE INNOCENT.

AND THAT'S WHY THEY SAID THEY WERE INNOCENT

BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T DO THE THING THEY WERE KILLED FOR.

AND THAT'S THE KEY.

( crowd chanting ) FBI close down, open up the files !

FBI close down, open up the files !

FBI close down, open up the files !

I'm not afraid.

It's the government that holds back the files.

We filed the request that said, let it all out.

YOU KNOW, WHAT WE'D DONE HAD DEMONSTRATED

THAT THEY WERE FRAMED.

AND THAT'S NOT THE SAME AS DEMONSTRATING

THAT SOMEONE'S INNOCENT.

ALL OF OUR RESEARCH SHOWED WHAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

IT REALLY SHOWED THAT JULIUS AND ETHEL ROSENBERG

DIDN'T STEAL THE SECRET OF THE ATOMIC BOMB.

BUT IT DIDN'T SHOW WHAT IF ANYTHING ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

WHAT DID HAPPEN ?

IN 1995, A MAN CALLED UP AND SAID

I JUST HEARD FROM MY CONTACTS AT THE CIA

THAT IN A FEW MINUTES THEY'RE GOING TO RELEASE

THE VENONA INFORMATION

AND I SAID, "THANK YOU VERY MUCH,"

AND NEXT THING WE KNEW THE PHONE RANG,

AND IT WAS SOME REPORTERS AND THEY SAID

THIS HAS JUST BEEN RELEASED

DO YOU WANT TO MAKE A STATEMENT ?

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT IT ?

AND WE THOUGHT ABOUT IT AND SAID WHAT DO WE WANT TO DO ?

VENONA WAS DECIPHERED SOVIET DOCUMENTS

THAT HAD BEEN PICKED UP IN THIS COUNTRY,

AND OVER A PERIOD OF TIME

DECIPHERED BY THE NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY.

( male reporter ) At CIA headquarters today, the government revealed

top secret documents tightly held for 50 years,

Soviet messages intercepted by the U.S.

putting the FBI on the Rosenberg's trail.

September 1944...

( female reporter ) Julius Rosenberg was code named "Antenna" and later "Liberal".

He is described as being so active

his Soviet handlers worried about his health.

Ethel Rosenberg is mentioned only once

as knowing about her husband's work

and being well-developed politically.

VENONA DIDN'T PROVE A DAMN THING.

THIS IS A JOKE.

THEY TRIED TO ATTRIBUTE TO ME A NAME

AND THEN BY THE FOURTH MESSAGE

IT TURNS OUT THAT "REL" AND "SIB"

HAS AN ARTIFICIAL LEG.

SO, I ALWAYS COMPLAIN HERE I AM A CONVICTED SPY

AND THEY DON'T HAVE ME IN THERE,

AND THEY HAVE A COUPLE HUNDRED OTHER PEOPLE

WHO'VE NOT BEEN CONVICTED IN THERE THAT THEY COULD IDENTIFY.

SO THERE ISN'T ANY JUSTICE IN THIS.

( chuckling )

THE GOVERNMENT IS TRYING TO CLOSE THIS CASE DESPERATELY,

THEY WANT TO GET IT OFF THEY'RE NECKS.

I'VE BEEN MAKING IT MORE DIFFICULT.

THAT I FIGURE IS MY JOB.

THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN THE ELEMENT OF

WHEN ARE WE GONNA KNOW EVERYTHING

FROM THE BEGINNING.

THERE'S SO MUCH THAT'S UNKNOWN,

AND WHAT WILL NEW INFORMATION BRING ?

SO, IF YOU LOOK AT IT THAT WAY A LOT OF THE NEW INFORMATION

OVER THE LAST 10-15 YEARS OR SO,

HAS BEEN FILTERED THROUGH THE GOVERNMENT

SO REMAINING SOMEWHAT SKEPTICAL IS NOT A BAD THING.

THERE'S A GRAY AREA WHERE A REASONABLE CASE CAN BE MADE

THAT JULIUS ROSENBERG WITH ETHEL ROSENBERG'S APPROVAL,

ENGAGED IN MILITARY INDUSTRIAL ESPIONAGE DURING WORLD WAR II,

BUT A REASONABLE CASE CAN ALSO BE MADE THAT

THE FACTS THAT POINT TO THIS

ARE GOVERNMENT CREATED DISINFORMATION

TO JUSTIFY MY PARENTS' EXECUTION.

FIGURING THOSE TWO THINGS OUT

IS VERY DIFFICULT.

UNTIL VENONA DOCUMENTS THEMSELVES CAME OUT IN '95,

I NEVER THOUGHT THERE WAS ANYTHING TO THEM

THAT WOULD, YOU KNOW, HARM US.

I THOUGHT IT WOULD, IF ANYTHING, HELP US.

BUT THEN WHEN THEY CAME OUT IN 1995

IT WAS VERY CLEAR THAT IF YOUR GRANDFATHER

WAS "LIBERAL" THEN HE DID STUFF.

WELL, I'M CURIOUS HOW YOU GUYS DIDN'T JUST WRITE THE BOOK

YOU ALSO WERE REALLY THE CHAMPIONS OF ROSENBERG INNOCENCE

FOR SUCH A LONG TIME.

HOW DID IT FEEL WHEN YOU STARTED TO QUESTION THAT...

( Walter Schneir ) I FELT PRETTY BAD.

PRETTY DAMN BAD.

I DID GO THROUGH A PERIOD OF SORT OF FEELING ANGRY WITH THEM.

IT SEEMS STUPID, SORT OF FEELING...

"HOW COULD YOU HAVE DONE THIS TO ME ?"

YOU KNOW...

( Walter Schneir ) AND YOU WERE ALWAYS BROUGHT UP TO BELIEVE

THEY WERE COMPLETELY INNOCENT.

HAVE YOU CHANGED YOUR MIND ?

I DON'T KNOW, IT DEPENDS ON

WHAT WEEK YOU'RE ASKING ME SOMETIMES.

IT REALLY IS TRUE.

SOMETIMES I THINK

THEY MUST HAVE BEEN DOING SOMETHING,

THEN OTHER TIMES I THINK AND I READ THEIR LETTERS

AND I THINK HOW COULD THEY SAY TO MY FATHER...

YEAH, HIS QUESTION ALSO.

( door closing )

A LITTLE PRIVACY.

HERE THEY ARE.

( Ivy Meeropol ) THEY DON'T GIVE US MUCH ROOM IN HERE.

LOOK AT THAT.

LOOK AT THAT.

OH MY GOD, DAD.

I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU GOTTA TAKE CARE OF THESE.

REALLY ROUGH WITH THEM.

COMES FROM HAVING LIVED WITH IT FOR SO MANY YEARS.

HERE'S AN EXAMPLE, LOOK AT THIS ONE.

THIS IS FROM ME.

OHH WOW, DAD.

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO FATHER, AND MERRY CHRISTMAS TO MOTHER.

THE BIG DAYS ARE HERE, SEE THE PRETTY CHRISTMAS TREE.

HAPPY NEW YEAR, YOUR SON, FROM MICHAEL,

THEN I ERASED "FROM."

THERE'S 1950, HERE'S '51,

HERE'S '52, AND HERE'S '52...

AND HERE'S '53, THE FIRST HALF OF '53.

AND HERE'S THE END OF '53.

"YOUR DADDY WAS WITH ME IN THE LAST MOMENTOUS HOURS

"SENDS HIS HEART AND ALL THE LOVE THAT IS IN IT

"FOR HIS DEAREST BOYS.

"ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT WE WERE INNOCENT

"AND COULD NOT WRONG OUR CONSCIENCE.

"WE PRESS YOU CLOSE AND KISS YOU WITH ALL OUR STRENGTH,

LOVINGLY, DADDY JULIE AND MOMMY ETHEL."

( Ivy Meeropol ) WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS NEW EVIDENCE

THAT SHOWS THAT MAYBE JULIUS WAS PASSING SECRETS ?

IT'S VERY, IT'S DIFFICULT,

'CAUSE I GREW UP MY WHOLE LIFE

THINKING THAT ETHEL AND JULIUS WERE TOTALLY INNOCENT

THE WHOLE TIME AND NOW THAT NEW EVIDENCE HAS COME OUT

AND PERHAPS THAT JULIUS WAS INVOLVED,

IT'S DIFFICULT, AT THE SAME TIME

I ALWAYS WONDER TO MYSELF IF HE WAS INNOCENT.

I MEAN, IF HE WAS GUILTY AND HE DID DO SOMETHING,

WHY DIDN'T HE SAY, "LOOK IT WAS ME

AND NOT MY WIFE, SPARE HER LIFE."

AND THAT'S WHAT'S BOTHERING ME

AND I KNOW THAT'S GOTTA BE WHAT'S BOTHERING DAD RIGHT NOW.

I TALKED TO HIM ABOUT IT TOO...

( Ivy Meeropol ) SO I MEAN, IF IT IS TRUE...

OBVIOUSLY, THEY ARE INNOCENT OF WHAT THEY ARE CHARGED WITH...

RIGHT, RIGHT AND YOU KNOW,

YOU COULD SAY THAT THAT'S WHAT WAS GOING ON,

AND THEY TRUSTED THAT HISTORY WOULD ABSOLVE THEM.

ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

I MEAN, SUPPOSE VENONA'S TRUE.

THINK OF YOUR GRANDMOTHER.

SHE WOULD HAVE HAD TO REPUDIATE HER MARRIAGE, BASICALLY.

TESTIFY AGAINST HER OWN HUSBAND.

I MEAN, SHE WOULD HAVE THEN HAD TO LIVE HER ENTIRE LIFE

BRINGING UP ROBBY AND ME

HAVING TESTIFIED AGAINST OUR OWN FATHER ?

SHE WOULD KNOW THAT SOME DAY AS WE GOT TO BE ADULTS,

WE WOULD HATE HER FOR IT.

( male ) THEY KNEW.

WHEN I SAY THEY,

I MEAN, THE HANDFUL OF PEOPLE WHO KNEW ABOUT VENONA,

INCLUDING LIKE J. EDGAR HOOVER,

THEY KNEW THAT ETHEL HAD NO CODE NAME AS A SPY.

WHICH REALLY INDICATES THAT SHE WAS NOT AN AGENT AT ALL,

BECAUSE EVERYBODY HAD CODE NAMES.

RUTH WAS IMMEDIATELY GIVEN A CODE NAME.

RUTH GREENGLASS, DAVID GREENGLASS,

BUT ETHEL DIDN'T HAVE ONE.

NOW, KNOWING THAT,

THEY WENT AHEAD AND THEY ARRESTED ETHEL,

BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT THAT HER ARREST WOULD PERSUADE JULIUS.

AND THEN THEY PLAYED A GAME OF CHICKEN.

THEY PUT A GUN TO HER HEAD AND THEY SAY

TALK OR WE'LL KILL HER.

IF VENONA'S TRUE THEN THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT

STANDS COMPLETELY CONDEMNED BEFORE THE BAR OF HISTORY

OF DOING EXACTLY WHAT THEY TALK ABOUT

WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT TERRORISTS:

TAKING A HOSTAGE AND THEN MURDERING THE HOSTAGE

WHEN THE OTHER SIDE DOESN'T COME ACROSS WITH THE GOODIES.

MIRIAM AND I ARE BOTH CONVINCED THAT ETHEL WAS MURDERED.

YOU CAN'T PUT IT ANY OTHER WAY.

SO WHEN YOU TRY TO ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT:

WHY DIDN'T THEY DO THIS ? WHY DIDN'T THEY CONFESS ?

WHICH ARE WONDERFUL MYSTERIES THAT EVERYBODY ASKS,

YOU HAVE TO THINK WHAT WAS IN ETHEL'S MIND KNOWING

THAT SO MUCH OF WHAT WAS BEING SAID AT THE TRIAL WAS FAKE.

( Ivy Meeropol ) I'VE TRIED TO READ BETWEEN THE LINES OF THEIR LETTERS

TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY REALLY MEANT.

I MEAN, WHAT DID THEY DIE FOR ?

I GREW UP FEELING A CERTAIN WAY

AND NOW WHAT AM I GONNA TELL MY CHILDREN

ABOUT WHO THEIR GREAT GRAND PARENTS WERE ?

I MEAN WHAT DO THEY--

WHAT'S THE STORY ?

WHAT'S THE STORY ? WHAT TO TELL THEM ?

IT'S REALLY A DILEMMA.

IT'S REALLY A DILEMMA.

ALL YOU CAN DO IS TO OUTLINE TO THEM WHAT HAPPENED

AND TELL THEM WHAT YOUR FEELING IS.

LET THEM DRAW THEIR OWN CONCLUSIONS,

COME WHAT MAY, YOU KNOW.

I DON'T THINK MY FATHER,

IT'S BECAUSE HE WAS SO WRAPPED UP IN THEIR INNOCENCE HIMSELF,

WHEN I WAS A KID...

THAT AFFECTS HIM ALL THE STUFF COMING OUT.

HE WANTS TO KNOW THE TRUTH.

THE TRUTH WILL MAKE YOU FREE...

MAYBE.

HE DOES WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH.

YEAH, I KNOW, I KNOW.

I DO TOO.

THE CRIME FOR WHICH JULIUS WAS CONVICTED,

HE COULD NOT HAVE COMMITTED.

HE WAS GUILTY OF SOMETHING ELSE UNDER THE LAW,

BUT NOT THAT KIND OF A THING, AND NOT THAT KIND OF A FATE.

( Ivy Meeropol ) SO WHAT WAS HE GUILTY OF ?

HE WAS A MEMBER OF A GROUP, HE WAS, NO QUESTION ABOUT IT,

OF YOUNG BRIGHT MEN WHO WERE INTO SCIENCE

WHO WERE OF OUR PERSUASION,

WHO DID EVERYTHING THEY COULD TO COLLECT INFORMATION

AND GET IT TO THE SOVIET UNION.

I REMEMBER ONE OF THE PROJECTS.

WHAT WAS IT ?

IT HAD TO DO WITH...

AN AIRPLANE PROPELLER, AS IT SPINS,

IT HAD TO DO WITH BEING ABLE TO CONTROL FROM THE COCKPIT,

THE PITCH OF BLADES.

AND I KNOW FOR A FACT

THAT JULIUS WAS TRYING TO GET THAT TO THEM,

BECAUSE HE TALKED TO ME ABOUT IT.

AND I DIDN'T DISCOURAGE HIM WITH THE IDEA.

I DISCOURAGED HIM WHEN HE DISCUSSED

HOW HE WAS GOING ABOUT IT.

BUT THE IDEA,

I WOULD HAVE GLADLY TAKEN THAT PACKAGE MYSELF,

THAT INFORMATION, OH YEAH.

AND THAT'S HARD FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND TODAY.

SO IT DOESN'T SURPRISE YOU AT ALL

AND YOU THINK JULIUS WAS...

NOT ONLY NOT SURPRISE ME I WOULD'VE DONE IT !

THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO TELL YOU.

( piano music )

( elevator bell )

HARRY !

HARRY, DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM ?

YOU'RE THE GRANDDAUGHTER OF THE ROSENBERGS.

THAT'S RIGHT.

I'M MICHAEL'S DAUGHTER.

YOU'RE MICHAEL'S DAUGHTER NOT ROBERT'S DAUGHTER.

RIGHT, RIGHT.

BY THE WAY, PROVE IT.

WHERE'S YOUR DRIVER'S LICENSE ?

YOU WANT TO SEE IT ?

HERE IT IS.

IVY MEEROPOL.

YEAH, ROSENBERG.

ARE YOU SATISFIED THAT I'M WHO I SAY I AM ?

NOW, YEAH.

( chuckle )

DO PEOPLE HERE KNOW

THAT YOU WERE FRIENDS WITH MY GRANDPARENTS ?

NO.

THEY DON'T.

OH, THEY'RE NOT ?

UNFORTUNATELY.

SO, I'VE HEARD THAT YOU FEEL THAT THEY--

THE POSITION THAT THEY TOOK SAVED YOU.

MANNY.

ANYTHING ELSE YOU WANNA KNOW ?

YOUR GRANDPARENTS WERE WILLING TO DIE.

THEY COULD'VE SAVED THEIR LIVES.

THAT'S A LOT TO, YOU KNOW...

BUT I THINK IT'S YOU KNOW, IT'S HARD,

THAT THEY LEFT TWO CHILDREN.

YEAH, YEAH.

THAT'S RIGHT.

THE REAL THING HERE BECAME ONE OF...

"WHAT DO YOU MEAN THE DEATH SENTENCE

"ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR GODDAMN MINDS ?

FOR WHAT, FOR WHAT ?"

AND SUDDENLY WE KNEW THAT IF WE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING,

NOBODY WOULD.

AND REALLY THAT'S HOW IT BEGAN.

WE SET UP WITH A NUMBER OF OTHER PEOPLE

THE NATIONAL COMMITTEE TO SECURE JUSTICE

IN THE ROSENBERG CASE,

AND THEN DAVID STARTED COVERING THE COUNTRY.

HE WENT FROM CITY TO CITY TO CITY.

THE FBI SAID HE PUT IN 10,000 MILES

BECAUSE THEY FOLLOWED HIM ALL THE WAY.

AND HE'D START COMMITTEES WITH TWO OR THREE PEOPLE

AND WE ENDED UP WITH COMMITTEES

IN EVERY MAJOR CITY IN THE UNITED STATES.

"Dear Mr. President, what single action

"could more effectively demonstrate this nation's

"fealty to religious and democratic ideals

"than the granting of clemency to my husband and myself.

"Such an act would also be a fitting reply

"to a small boy's desperate appeal.

"A hope for the release of his own dear parents.

"Take counsel with the mother of your only son.

"Her heart, which understands my grief so well

"and my longing to see my sons grown to manhood

"like her own.

"With loving husband at my side.

"Respectfully yours, Mrs. Ethel Rosenberg,

"Prison number 110-501,

women's wing, condemned cell."

UNTIL THE LAST DAY THEY REALLY THOUGHT

THAT THEY WERE GONNA MAKE IT.

MY AUNT ETHEL, SHE SAID MY FATHER WOULD SAY

TO HER IN JAIL, "SIS, I THINK WE'LL JUST MAKE IT."

AND WHAT HE MEANT WAS THAT THEIR LIVES

WOULD BE SPARED SORT OF AT THE LAST MINUTE.

AND YOU KNOW THEY WERE RIGHT.

THEY CAME VERY CLOSE.

IT TOOK THE MOST EXTRAORDINARY MACHINATIONS IN THE SUPREME COURT,

I MEAN, THE STUFF THAT WENT ON IN THE SUPREME COURT

THAT LAST WEEK WAS JUST OUTRAGEOUS.

I MEAN, ACTUALLY ALLOWING A FIX

THAT THE CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE SUPREME COURT--

EVEN BEFORE DOUGLAS GRANTS THE STAY,

HE'S THE ONE WHO SAYS, "I WILL CALL THE COURT BACK

INTO SPECIAL SESSION TO OVERTURN THE STAY IF HE GRANTS IT."

I MEAN, IT'S JUST AN UNBELIEVABLE LINE,

BECAUSE THAT MEANS HE'S NOT EVEN GONNA WAIT TO SEE THE REASONS,

TO SEE WHETHER THE REASONING IS GOOD.

HE'S JUST GONNA OVERTURN IT, PERIOD !

( male ) The following is part of a statement

just issued by the President of the United States.

By immeasurably increasing the chances of atomic war,

The Rosenbergs may have condemned to death

tens of millions of innocent people all over the world.

I will not intervene in this matter.

( Ivy Meeropol ) I MEAN, AS SOMEONE WHO REFUSED TO DO

WHAT THEY WANTED, ALSO, I MEAN, CAN YOU...

IT ISN'T THAT THEY REFUSED, THEY COULDN'T.

THEY JUST COULDN'T.

IS THAT HOW YOU FELT, TOO ?

YEAH, IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE, JUST NOT POSSIBLE,

YOU'RE WASTING YOUR BREATH I CAN'T THINK THAT WAY.

BECAUSE THAT CONTINUES TO PLAGUE THEM,

EVEN 50 YEARS AFTER THEIR DEATH...

RIGHT.

... AND OUR FAMILY, IT'S A CONSTANT QUESTION.

WHY DIDN'T THEY SAVE THEMSELVES ?

THEY COULDN'T.

YOU KNOW, WHY DID THEY NOT CARE ABOUT MY FATHER ?

WHY DID THEY NOT CARE ABOUT MY UNCLE ?

THEY COULDN'T, THEY COULDN'T DO ANYTHING.

THEY WOULD HAVE HAD TO BE SOMETHING THEY WERE NOT,

AND THAT'S NOT POSSIBLE.

( male ) AND TO LOOK FOR ONLY POLITICAL EXPLANATIONS

IS BULLSHIT.

PURELY BULLSHIT.

IF YOU WANNA ASK ME WHY

ETHEL AND JULIUS STOOD UP LIKE THEY DID ?

'CAUSE THEY KNEW THAT IF THEY DIDN'T,

THEY COULD NOT EVEN FACE EACH OTHER.

THEY WOULD HAVE NO RESPECT FOR EACH OTHER.

THE RESISTANCE WAS AN ENORMOUS BONDING THING,

IN SOME WAYS MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE.

IT'S FAR MORE IMPORTANT THAN LUST OR SEX,

THEY HAD BECOME NOT ONLY EACH OTHER'S BEST FRIENDS,

BUT LOYAL COMRADES IN THE DEEPEST SENSE OF THE WORD.

AND THEY COULDN'T BETRAY THAT.

EITHER ONE OF THEM WOULD HAVE BEEN CRUSHED

BY THE OTHER'S YIELDING.

THEY LOVED EACH OTHER, BUT IN A VERY DEEP WAY.

( male reporter ) Julius and Ethel Rosenberg will die in the electric chair

at Sing Sing prison tonight.

Warden Dennoe said earlier

that the executions would begin at eight p.m. daylight time.

The execution time was set after the Supreme Court

and the President refused to intervene.

We are told that the President and Attorney General Brownell

are standing by in the event the Rosenbergs

want to make a clean breast of it.

EVERY OTHER VISIT WE JUST ASSUMED THERE WAS A NEXT TIME.

THIS ONE, THERE WAS NO NECESSARILY A NEXT TIME,

SO I STARTED WAILING,

"ONE MORE DAY TO LIVE, ONE MORE DAY TO LIVE."

WHAT I WAS SAYING TO THEM IS, "HOW CAN YOU BE SO NORMAL

IN SAYING GOODBYE WHEN YOU ONLY HAVE ONE MORE DAY TO LIVE ?"

AND THEY HUGGED ME AND SAID EVERYTHING

WOULD BE ALRIGHT AND OUT I WENT.

( Ivy Meeropol ) SO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT DISCOVERING THESE LETTERS.

( male ) YEAH, WELL, THEY WERE LITTLE SCRAPS OF PAPER

ON WHICH ETHEL HAD SCRAWLED LITTLE MESSAGES, MINUTES,

BEFORE HER DEATH,

AND I REMEMBER THERE WAS ONE OF THEM IN PARTICULAR AND IT SAID:

"I CRY FOR MYSELF AS I LIE DEAD

"FOR SHALL THEY KNOW ALL

THAT BURNED MY BRAIN AND BREAST."

( Ivy Meeropol ) WHEN DID YOUR HUSBAND FIRST START AT SING SING ?

IN 1950, HE WAS APPOINTED BY THE GOVERNOR

AND THE YEAR AFTER THAT ETHEL AND JULIUS

WERE BROUGHT INTO THE DEATH HOUSE.

AND FOR THE NEXT TWO YEARS HE SAW THEM EVERY SINGLE WEEK.

AND THEN OF COURSE THAT DAY, THAT FATEFUL DAY.

HE WAS AT THE CORNER GASOLINE STATION GETTING GAS

AND HE HEARS THE NEWS ON THE CAR RADIO,

THAT THE ROSENBERGS ARE GONNA BE EXECUTED THAT NIGHT.

AND HE WAS IN SHOCK.

AND HE CALLED ME FROM THE GAS STATION HE SAID,

"I'M NOT COMING HOME,

"I'M GOING STRAIGHT UP TO SING SING.

I HAVE TO BE WITH THEM."

AND THEN OF COURSE HE HAD THE BITTER CHOICE

OF HAVING TO CHOOSE WHICH ONE GOES FIRST.

AND SO AT THAT POINT HE FELT THAT JULIUS

WAS MORE NERVOUS THAN ETHEL.

AND SO HE THOUGHT MAYBE HE SHOULD BE THE ONE TO GO FIRST.

AND HE HAD TO WALK WITH HIM TO THE CHAIR.

THEY STRAP HIM IN,

HE STANDS IN FRONT OF HIM, LIKE I AM BEFORE YOU,

AND HAS TO STAND THERE AND WITNESS

THAT ELECTROCUTION.

AND THEN, HE HAD TO WALK BACK

AND GO TO ETHEL,

AND HE SAID TO ETHEL...

"JULIUS IS GONE, AND YOU'RE LEFT,

"AND YOU'RE LEAVING TWO CHILDREN WITHOUT ANY PARENTS.

"YOU STILL HAVE A CHANCE TO SAVE YOURSELF.

"DO YOU HAVE ANY NAME, DO YOU HAVE ANY THING YOU COULD--

"ANY NAME, EVEN IF IT'S A FALSE NAME,

SOMETHING THAT WILL SAVE YOU."

AND SHE SAID, "NO, I HAVE NO NAME,

"I'M INNOCENT

AND I'M READY."

AND SO, THEY PUT HER IN THE CHAIR,

AND I THINK SHE WAS JUST TOO SMALL AND PETITE

FOR THE SIZE OF THE CHAIR

AND THE ELECTRODE AND IT DIDN'T FIT HER PROPERLY,

AND THEY GAVE HER A SHOCK.

AND THE EXAMINER CHECKED HER

AND HER HEART WAS STILL BEATING

SO THEY HAD TO DO IT AGAIN.

( chatter )

( male shouting ) We rollin' yet ?

Come on !

Well, the official party arrived at the death house at 8:01

and they were all seated by 8:02,

at about that time they brought Julius in first

and he appeared very calm, almost defiant.

There was no expression on their faces.

They sat in the chair without the assistance of the guards.

She turned to the matron who's been with her all this time

and shook her hand then she impulsively

leaned over and kissed her.

In Rosenberg's case

it was all over in a very few minutes,

She died a lot harder.

Believing she was dead the attendants

had taken off the ghastly strappings, electrodes,

and black belts, and so forth,

and these had to be readjusted again,

and she was given more electricity

which started again,

and kind of a ghastly plume of smoke

that rose from her head

and went up against the skylight overhead.

( male ) She was then examined again.

She was pronounced dead at 8:16,

that's four and a half minutes after

she was placed in the chair.

Then her body was moved...

( Michael Meeropol ) I WALKED IN THE HOUSE

AND THERE WERE ALL THESE ADULTS THERE

AND I SAID "WHAT HAPPENED ?"

AND NOBODY WOULD ANSWER ME DIRECTLY,

AND SO I KNEW THAT THAT WAS IT, THEY WERE DEAD.

I WAS REALLY INCAPABLE OF REACTING REALLY,

SO I BASICALLY JUST SAT DOWN

AND VERY DRY-EYED, JUST LOOKED AT MY HANDS.

AND MY FRIEND PIPED UP,

"YOU'RE TAKING IT JUST LIKE A MAN, MIKE."

AND THE WOMAN WHO WE WERE STAYING WITH HUGGED ME

AND SAID, "YOU'LL STAY HERE WITH US,"

AND I THOUGHT, "WELL, YES, I WILL".

( Ivy Meeropol ) WAS THERE ANYONE THAT YOU FELT

THAT WAS THERE TO COMFORT YOU ?

NOT IN THOSE MONTHS.

THOSE MONTHS WERE NOT VERY GOOD MONTHS

IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY.

I WASN'T ADJUSTING VERY WELL TO THAT KIND OF LIFE.

UP UNTIL JUNE 1953 THERE WAS ALWAYS SOME KIND OF HOPE,

BUT AFTER THAT IT WAS, YOU KNOW...

SO EVERYTHING, ALL THE BAD STUFF THAT COULD HAVE COME OUT

THAT WAS SORT OF HELD IN ABEYANCE BY THE HOPE

STARTED TO COME OUT, THE RECRIMINATIONS.

I WAS, YOU KNOW...

I DIDN'T DO WELL IN SCHOOL, I WAS NOT IN GREAT SHAPE.

( Ivy Meeropol ) MY FATHER REMEMBERS YOU DRIVING UP WITH A STATION WAGON

WITH A BED RIGGED IN THE BACK

AND THAT YOU WERE COMING TO MAYBE ADOPT THEM ?

ACTUALLY, WE WERE GOING TO THE WEST COAST

AND I REGRETTED NOT PUTTING THEM IN THE CAR

AND TAKING THEM WITH US.

ON THE OTHER HAND WITH THE FBI FOLLOWING US ALL THE WAY

AGAIN IT WAS HOW MUCH DO YOU EXPOSE THEM TO ?

THERE WAS SURVEILLANCE.

( Ivy Meeropol ) SO, YOU WERE CONCERNED IN A WAY...

WE EXPECTED TO GET ARRESTED SOON TOO.

WE EXPECTED THAT OUR TURN WAS NEXT.

YOU DON'T BRING THE BOYS INTO THAT.

YOU DON'T.

THEY CAN'T GO THROUGH IT TWICE,

THEY NEEDED EXACTLY WHAT TOOK PLACE,

THEY NEEDED THE MEEROPOLS.

My husband and I have discussed the thing

and we had known about the children.

Although, we did not know the parents,

We knew Mr. Bloch.

( Michael Meeropol ) MANNY BLOCH WAS OUR LEGAL GUARDIAN

AFTER OUR PARENTS WERE KILLED.

WHAT HAPPENED WAS A WOMAN WHO WAS WORKING IN MANNY'S OFFICE

WAS VERY CLOSE FRIENDS WITH ANNE AND ABEL

AND SHE BASICALLY TOLD MANNY,

"THESE PEOPLE WOULD BE PERFECT."

... and they adjusted wonderful.

I love Anne, and I love Abel.

I asked the children whether they were satisfied,

and they said, "I love them.

I love Anne, and I love Abel."

ANNE AND ABEL WERE LEFTIST INTELLECTUALS.

DADDY WAS A NEW YORK CITY PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHER,

WHO WAS A WRITER,

AND WHEN WE MET HIM HE WAS A FULL-TIME WRITER,

AND SHE WAS A FULL-TIME YOU KNOW, SORT OF DRAMA PERSON.

SO THEY BOTH HAD A LOT OF TIME FOR US.

THEY GAVE US TREMENDOUS, TREMENDOUS ATTENTION.

( Ivy Meeropol ) SO, DO YOU REMEMBER TAKING AN IMMEDIATE LIKING TO THEM ?

OH YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

I MEAN, DADDY WAS JUST THE MOST HYSTERICAL PERSON

YOU'D EVER WANT TO MEET IN YOUR LIFE.

( young Michael ) And now folks, we will have Abel say us a few words:

( Abel ) "Ong-wong-way, kaza-lama-zay, lama-zee lama-zay,

tishy-patty-wama-zay awky-pawky ong-wong-way."

( young Michael ) Thank you, Abel, that was a very nice speech.

and now we give you, Michael Meeropol.

THE FAMILY LORE WAS AFTER WE WERE ADOPTED

AND DISAPPEARED FROM PUBLIC VIEW,

WAS THAT WE HAD BEEN TAKEN BY THE COMMUNISTS.

THAT WAS THE FAMILY LORE.

( Ivy Meeropol ) AND AT THAT POINT YOU WERE ALREADY FEELING

VERY ATTACHED TO THE MEEROPOLS.

OH YEAH, ABSOLUTELY, THOSE TAPES, THOSE TAPES

THOSE WERE THE THINGS THAT WERE HAPPENING IN JANUARY

AND I LOVED MY SCHOOL, EVERYTHING WAS GREAT...

AND THEN, OH GOD.

CERTAIN PEOPLE IN THE WELFARE INDUSTRY,

BASICALLY CONSPIRED TO TRY TO GET US AWAY FROM ANNE AND ABEL.

AND THE GUY PUTS US IN A HOME

AND ROBBY AND I ARE BACK IN A HOME.

OH, IT WAS THE MOST HORRIBLE TWO DAYS.

IT WAS AS BAD AS ANY OTHER TIME.

( male interviewer ) Mrs. Meeropol, we want to know what's going to happen now ?

Are you going to get the children back ?

Do you want them back ?

Well, we do want them back.

We had hoped that they could stay with us

even during this interval period,

because we feel that the children need to be with us,

and we want them and we love them

as though they were our own...

AND THEN THE WHOLE COMMITTEE STRUCTURE RALLIES.

( Ivy Meeropol ) ROSENBERG COMMITTEE ?

YEAH, AND THEY GO BEFORE A GUY NAMED McNALLY,

THE SUPREME COURT JUDGE,

AND HERE'S WHAT'S KIND OF INTERESTING.

HE'S A CATHOLIC, AND A JEWISH JUDGE

HAS ORDERED US TO GO TO THE HOME.

AND McNALLY WAS VERY SMART.

HE PAROLED US IN OUR GRANDMOTHER'S CUSTODY.

HE HAS THIS GREAT STATEMENT, "MRS. ROSENBERG,

"I AM COUNTING ON YOU TO TAKE THESE CHILDREN,

"AND CARE FOR THESE CHILDREN,

"TEACH THEM OUT OF THE OLD TESTAMENT,

"TEACH THEM, AS YOU HAVE,

"THE TENETS OF YOUR ANCIENT AND HONORABLE RELIGION,

"NEVER LET ANYONE TALK TO THESE CHILDREN

"IN DEROGATION AGAINST THIS COUNTRY,

"IT IS THEIR COUNTRY TOO,

THAT IS A SAD AND DISTRESSING SITUATION..."

I MEAN, WHAT A WONDERFUL GUY.

THAT WAS A GREAT--

I THINK THAT WAS THE TURNING POINT IN OUR LIVES,

BECAUSE IT WAS THE FIRST VICTORY

OUR FAMILY HAD EVER HAD IN THE COURTS.

AND I CAN'T REALLY EXPLAIN WHY I NEVER BOTHERED

TO FIND OUT WHERE THE GRAVE WAS,

AND GO TO THE GRAVE, BUT I THINK PART OF IT WAS JUST,

WHY PUT MYSELF THROUGH THAT ?

( male ) IT'S IN THIS PLOT.

IT IS IN THIS BIG PLOT.

I THINK WE SHOULD GO FURTHER IN.

OH, SHE DIDN'T GIVE ME A ROW.

NAH, SHE'S MAKING IT DIFFICULT.

WE GOTTA LIKE, LOOK DOWN ALL THESE ROWS, HUH ?

SHIT.

I FEEL LIKE I'LL JUST SEE IT.

I THINK I SEE IT OVER THERE.

THIS IS IT.

I FOUND IT...

SEE, IT'S SAD THAT...

NO...

I WAS JUST GONNA SAY IT'S SAD

THAT THEIRS DOESN'T SAY "BELOVED HUSBAND/FATHER,"

YOU KNOW, LIKE THESE PEOPLE RIGHT NEXT DOOR.

( Ivy Meeropol ) IT SEEMS LIKE BECAUSE OF THE POSITION THEY TOOK

WE ALL GET TO LIVE A LIFE WHERE WE'RE PROUD.

YEAH, WHICH IS INTERESTING BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE WOULD SAY

THIS IS SELF-DELUSION,

I MEAN, WHY WOULD YOU BE PROUD OF TRAITORS ?

BUT I DON'T ACCEPT THAT.

SORT OF A MACABRE, BIZARRE SPECULATION

IS WHAT WOULD ROBBY AND MY LIFE HAVE BEEN LIKE

IF JULIUS HAD SPENT 10 YEARS IN JAIL,

CONFESSED, NAMED A WHOLE BUNCH OF NAMES,

BEEN A WITNESS SOMEWHERE,

ETHEL HAD NEVER GONE TO JAIL,

WE HAD BEEN BROUGHT UP WITH NEW NAMES,

BUT REALLY HIDDEN THIS TIME,

SO THAT WE COULD IF WE HAD WANTED TO,

NEVER TELL YOU AND GREGORY,

BUT CERTAINLY THE KIND OF LIFE THAT WE WOULD HAVE LED

IF YOUR GRANDFATHER HAD BEEN ANOTHER DAVID GREENGLASS

AND YOUR GRANDMOTHER HAD BEEN ANOTHER RUTH GREENGLASS,

I MEAN, THAT'S A LIFE THAT I--

I HAVE TO SAY I'M HAPPY I DIDN'T LEAD THAT LIFE.

( Ivy Meeropol ) IT'S REALLY ABOUT BRINGING THEM BACK HOME,

THEY WERE MY DAD'S PARENTS,

AND THEY WERE MY GRANDPARENTS,

SO IT'S RECLAIMING THIS STORY FOR OUR FAMILY.

( chatter )

Captions Copyright 2004 HOME BOX OFFICE, INC.

Captioned by HBO COMMUNICATIONS CENTER