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MARK: People deserve
to know the whole story.
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00:01:03,689 --> 00:01:05,899
I came back from the dead.
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00:01:05,899 --> 00:01:09,236
I felt like
I owed humanity something.
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00:01:16,243 --> 00:01:19,871
I wanted to bring
gay marriage to Utah.
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00:01:26,253 --> 00:01:27,713
It was the norm.
8
00:01:27,713 --> 00:01:30,882
Gay marriage was never
gonna come to Utah.
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00:01:32,342 --> 00:01:33,802
General attitude was
that the Mormon Church
10
00:01:33,802 --> 00:01:35,512
was never gonna allow this
in Utah.
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00:01:35,512 --> 00:01:39,391
Well, let's not go to
the Mormon Church with this.
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00:01:39,391 --> 00:01:42,686
We have the federal laws,
and we have the Constitution.
13
00:01:45,897 --> 00:01:50,277
They were afraid to stand up
to the big giant.
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00:01:52,237 --> 00:01:57,451
♪ Gave proof through the night ♪
15
00:01:57,451 --> 00:02:02,331
♪ That our flag
was still there ♪
16
00:02:02,331 --> 00:02:08,837
♪ O say, does that
star-spangled ♪
17
00:02:08,837 --> 00:02:15,427
♪ Banner yet wave ♪
18
00:02:15,427 --> 00:02:23,143
♪ O'er the land of the free ♪
19
00:02:23,143 --> 00:02:26,605
♪ And the home ♪
20
00:02:26,605 --> 00:02:32,152
♪ Of the brave ♪
21
00:02:32,152 --> 00:02:37,074
[cheers and applause]
22
00:02:42,204 --> 00:02:45,707
We thank you for being here
this evening,
23
00:02:45,707 --> 00:02:48,001
and thank you for taking
a stand for marriage,
24
00:02:48,001 --> 00:02:49,836
standing with Amendment 3.
25
00:02:49,836 --> 00:02:53,006
[cheering]
26
00:02:57,302 --> 00:03:01,556
Each of us knows that this is
a difficult and sensitive issue,
27
00:03:01,556 --> 00:03:05,560
but we can show the world
that Utah can be for marriage
28
00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,313
without being against anyone.
29
00:03:08,313 --> 00:03:12,984
[cheers and applause]
30
00:03:12,984 --> 00:03:14,736
Okay, I'm sorry.
I'm just too excited
31
00:03:14,736 --> 00:03:16,738
to let
this opportunity pass.
32
00:03:16,738 --> 00:03:20,575
I just wanna tell the room
that Brian Brown,
33
00:03:20,575 --> 00:03:23,870
the president of
the national organization
34
00:03:23,870 --> 00:03:26,456
has just entered the room.
35
00:03:26,456 --> 00:03:29,835
[cheering]
36
00:03:29,835 --> 00:03:33,755
He has done more for marriage
in the United States
37
00:03:33,755 --> 00:03:36,216
than anyone else.
38
00:03:36,216 --> 00:03:38,718
[cheering]
39
00:03:41,638 --> 00:03:45,392
To the few pessimists out there
40
00:03:45,392 --> 00:03:49,062
that think that
this is a losing cause,
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00:03:49,062 --> 00:03:53,984
the immortal Don Quixote
showed us the results.
42
00:03:53,984 --> 00:03:55,986
♪♪
43
00:03:55,986 --> 00:03:59,823
♪ To dream
the impossible dream ♪
44
00:03:59,823 --> 00:04:04,327
♪ Fight the unbeatable foe ♪
45
00:04:06,496 --> 00:04:09,499
I think we should go down
and see if we can catch him.
46
00:04:17,924 --> 00:04:19,134
Mr. Brown.
47
00:04:19,134 --> 00:04:21,136
- Hi, how are you?
- Hi, good.
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00:04:21,136 --> 00:04:23,847
I just wanted to introduce
myself and welcome you to Utah.
49
00:04:23,847 --> 00:04:25,515
I'm Mark Lawrence.
50
00:04:25,515 --> 00:04:29,060
I'm the director
of Restore Our Humanity.
51
00:04:29,060 --> 00:04:32,063
I brought the lawsuit
that brought down Amendment 3.
52
00:04:32,063 --> 00:04:35,484
We're saying marriage is not
only about a man and a woman.
53
00:04:35,484 --> 00:04:38,236
Marriage can be expanded
to include everybody.
54
00:04:38,236 --> 00:04:40,238
Every loving couple
who is together.
55
00:04:40,238 --> 00:04:42,032
Why not four, five,
or six then?
56
00:04:42,032 --> 00:04:44,034
- That's not my argument.
- But why not?
57
00:04:44,034 --> 00:04:46,119
I don't care. It has nothing
to do with my life.
58
00:04:46,119 --> 00:04:47,954
- Well, I do care.
- Why?
59
00:04:47,954 --> 00:04:49,664
The binary structure of marriage
60
00:04:49,664 --> 00:04:51,666
is in the best interest
of children in society.
61
00:04:51,666 --> 00:04:52,876
It's important that
children are connected
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00:04:52,876 --> 00:04:54,503
with their mothers
and fathers.
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00:04:54,503 --> 00:04:56,296
But children don't have
anything to do with this.
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00:04:56,296 --> 00:04:58,131
This has nothing
to do with children.
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00:04:58,131 --> 00:05:00,884
Gay people have kids
'cause they want kids,
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00:05:00,884 --> 00:05:02,302
not because they're married.
67
00:05:02,302 --> 00:05:04,137
If marriage has a meaning,
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00:05:04,137 --> 00:05:06,306
then you take that meaning
and you basically say
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00:05:06,306 --> 00:05:08,183
it applies to everything.
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00:05:08,183 --> 00:05:10,936
By expanding it
in the way you're claiming,
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00:05:10,936 --> 00:05:13,230
you no longer have any central
meaning for it anymore.
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00:05:13,230 --> 00:05:15,148
No, no, no, no.
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00:05:15,148 --> 00:05:17,192
Again, we can agree
to disagree.
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00:05:17,192 --> 00:05:19,528
- Thank you for approaching me.
- Thank you very much.
75
00:05:19,528 --> 00:05:22,155
I've been looking forward
to meeting you for a long time.
76
00:05:22,155 --> 00:05:24,407
Good luck.
Thank you, sir, appreciate it.
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00:05:27,661 --> 00:05:30,664
That is a lifelong ambition,
and I finally met him.
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00:05:30,664 --> 00:05:33,333
I'm ready to die now.
[chuckles]
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00:05:36,169 --> 00:05:42,300
♪ Still strove
with his last ounce of courage ♪
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00:05:42,300 --> 00:05:47,055
♪ To reach ♪
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00:05:47,055 --> 00:05:50,934
♪ The unreachable ♪
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00:05:50,934 --> 00:05:59,317
♪ Star ♪
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00:05:59,317 --> 00:06:03,280
[applause]
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00:06:20,505 --> 00:06:23,675
MARK: My parents pretty much
live at the poverty level.
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00:06:26,553 --> 00:06:28,555
And I just made a decision
one day
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00:06:28,555 --> 00:06:31,266
that I should probably just
move in with them for a while,
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00:06:31,266 --> 00:06:33,768
but that was before my dad was
diagnosed with Alzheimer's.
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00:06:36,354 --> 00:06:39,899
So it just got to a point
where I couldn't leave,
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00:06:39,899 --> 00:06:42,360
and I'm still here.
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00:06:53,371 --> 00:06:56,249
Well, I'm very proud of the work
that you've been doing,
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00:06:56,249 --> 00:06:58,627
and I don't know
how you stay on top of it
92
00:06:58,627 --> 00:07:01,630
and help with your dad.
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00:07:01,630 --> 00:07:05,008
MARK: I wouldn't have
anything else to do.
94
00:07:05,008 --> 00:07:06,926
- Oh, sure.
- I know you are,
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00:07:06,926 --> 00:07:09,220
but I have a place
to go and vent,
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00:07:09,220 --> 00:07:12,474
so that's when I come home
and hide down in the basement,
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00:07:12,474 --> 00:07:13,975
and I'm okay.
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00:07:13,975 --> 00:07:16,770
- Your dad supports you too.
- I know.
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00:07:16,770 --> 00:07:21,775
It was a big shock to both of us
in the beginning
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00:07:21,775 --> 00:07:24,277
when you came out
of the closet.
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00:07:24,277 --> 00:07:28,156
But I do not understand
how parents
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00:07:28,156 --> 00:07:32,410
can kick a child
out of their home
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00:07:32,410 --> 00:07:38,416
when they find out
that they're homosexual or...
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00:07:38,416 --> 00:07:42,837
- It's just unbelievable.
- It happens every day.
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♪♪ [mellow guitar]
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00:07:46,508 --> 00:07:49,511
MARK: I grew up
in farm community in Utah.
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All my friends
I was associated with
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00:07:50,970 --> 00:07:53,973
were all, of course,
with the Mormon Church.
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00:07:53,973 --> 00:07:56,059
You could make one statement
or have one thought,
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00:07:56,059 --> 00:07:58,144
and a friend would say,
"Hey, you can't think like that.
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00:07:58,144 --> 00:08:00,105
Don't do that.
You'll go to hell.
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00:08:00,105 --> 00:08:01,648
You're gonna make God
mad at you."
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00:08:01,648 --> 00:08:02,816
Crazy stuff.
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00:08:05,402 --> 00:08:07,570
My best friend...
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00:08:07,570 --> 00:08:10,448
The guys would go to his house
to look at his dad's Playboy.
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00:08:10,448 --> 00:08:12,450
Well, I wasn't interested in it,
117
00:08:12,450 --> 00:08:14,744
so my job was
to stand out front
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00:08:14,744 --> 00:08:16,788
and watch for his mom
to come home
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00:08:16,788 --> 00:08:19,040
and ring the doorbell.
[chuckles]
120
00:08:21,084 --> 00:08:23,253
I wasn't interested.
121
00:08:23,253 --> 00:08:25,255
That's when I knew.
122
00:08:26,715 --> 00:08:28,466
I moved to San Francisco
in the early '80s
123
00:08:28,466 --> 00:08:30,552
when AIDS was at its peak.
124
00:08:30,552 --> 00:08:32,554
The response I was getting
from people here,
125
00:08:32,554 --> 00:08:36,516
"Why are you going there?
You'll get AIDS."
126
00:08:36,516 --> 00:08:38,727
I never had any real
relationships there.
127
00:08:38,727 --> 00:08:41,646
I was willing to be risky
about going out,
128
00:08:41,646 --> 00:08:43,690
going to bars and trying
to pick up tricks
129
00:08:43,690 --> 00:08:47,318
and meet strangers
and that kinda stuff.
130
00:08:47,318 --> 00:08:50,113
That was okay.
That kinda risky behavior's fine
131
00:08:50,113 --> 00:08:51,865
'cause that's part of being gay.
132
00:08:51,865 --> 00:08:55,076
It was a lot easier to
try to pick up a trick
133
00:08:55,076 --> 00:08:57,245
and not have to become
emotionally involved
134
00:08:57,245 --> 00:08:59,748
or connected to anybody.
135
00:08:59,748 --> 00:09:01,791
It was also
part of fighting AIDS.
136
00:09:01,791 --> 00:09:04,627
Screw AIDS.
I'm gonna go out and have sex
137
00:09:04,627 --> 00:09:06,713
whether you like it or not.
138
00:09:06,713 --> 00:09:09,924
It was part of the militant
thing that we all went through.
139
00:09:12,302 --> 00:09:15,430
For some stupid reason,
I thought I had to get tested,
140
00:09:15,430 --> 00:09:19,642
see what my HIV status is,
and I did.
141
00:09:19,642 --> 00:09:22,771
And I was positive,
and I did not expect that.
142
00:09:22,771 --> 00:09:24,439
I did not know that.
143
00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,277
Watched people die
in San Francisco.
144
00:09:29,277 --> 00:09:31,571
I watched ACT UP.
I watched.
145
00:09:31,571 --> 00:09:33,782
I just stood off
at the sidelines though.
146
00:09:33,782 --> 00:09:36,242
I didn't do anything.
I just watched.
147
00:09:36,242 --> 00:09:38,745
I would look at that and go,
"Why can't I do that?
148
00:09:38,745 --> 00:09:41,039
Why am I not out there
marching with them?"
149
00:09:41,039 --> 00:09:42,916
Those people have got
a lot of guts,
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00:09:42,916 --> 00:09:47,629
and they have a lot of courage,
and maybe I was afraid.
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00:09:47,629 --> 00:09:50,089
But it would've given me
a hell of a lot more meaning
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00:09:50,089 --> 00:09:52,091
if I had known
I could be down there
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00:09:52,091 --> 00:09:55,428
marching with those people
and sticking with them,
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00:09:55,428 --> 00:09:59,015
instead of reading about it
in the paper.
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00:10:23,998 --> 00:10:27,293
Utah's political landscape
is somewhat unique
156
00:10:27,293 --> 00:10:31,297
in that one denomination
dominates the culture.
157
00:10:31,297 --> 00:10:33,842
Based on what you have
seen and experienced,
158
00:10:33,842 --> 00:10:37,095
is Utah a democracy
or a theocracy?
159
00:10:37,095 --> 00:10:38,638
STEVE: Clearly a democracy.
160
00:10:38,638 --> 00:10:40,849
We're nowhere close
to being a theocracy.
161
00:10:40,849 --> 00:10:43,601
But I do have issues
with how the Mormon Church
162
00:10:43,601 --> 00:10:45,603
lobbies the legislature.
163
00:10:45,603 --> 00:10:47,063
All of Republican leadership,
164
00:10:47,063 --> 00:10:49,566
almost all our members
of the Mormon Church
165
00:10:49,566 --> 00:10:52,360
they are able to
whisper into the ears
166
00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,572
of a few members of
Republican leadership.
167
00:10:55,572 --> 00:10:58,575
Then bills magically go through
without objection,
168
00:10:58,575 --> 00:11:00,618
or they magically die,
169
00:11:00,618 --> 00:11:03,496
and there's not
a lot of talk about it.
170
00:11:03,496 --> 00:11:05,874
Really, to appreciate
the significance
171
00:11:05,874 --> 00:11:09,586
of overturning a same-sex
marriage ban in Utah,
172
00:11:09,586 --> 00:11:13,006
you have to understand
that Mormon history,
173
00:11:13,006 --> 00:11:16,176
doctrine, and culture
permeate every aspect
174
00:11:16,176 --> 00:11:19,762
of public policy
and public opinion.
175
00:11:19,762 --> 00:11:25,101
One way we can see that is in
the twice-yearly conferences
176
00:11:25,101 --> 00:11:27,729
that the Church holds
in Salt Lake City.
177
00:11:27,729 --> 00:11:30,440
Those draw tens of thousands
of Latter-day Saints
178
00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:32,692
who come to hear words of wisdom
179
00:11:32,692 --> 00:11:35,653
and direction from
their church leaders.
180
00:11:35,653 --> 00:11:40,158
We believe the organization
and government of heaven
181
00:11:40,158 --> 00:11:43,995
will be built around families
and extended families.
182
00:11:43,995 --> 00:11:46,039
It is because of our beliefs
183
00:11:46,039 --> 00:11:48,750
that marriage and families
are eternal,
184
00:11:48,750 --> 00:11:52,754
that we, as a Church,
want to be leaders
185
00:11:52,754 --> 00:11:56,841
and participate in worldwide
movements that strengthen them.
186
00:11:56,841 --> 00:11:59,218
We want to help these people
to strengthen them,
187
00:11:59,218 --> 00:12:01,596
to assist them
with their problems
188
00:12:01,596 --> 00:12:04,432
and to help them
with their difficulties.
189
00:12:04,432 --> 00:12:06,434
But we cannot stand idle
190
00:12:06,434 --> 00:12:09,354
if they indulge
in immoral activity,
191
00:12:09,354 --> 00:12:12,982
if they try to uphold
and defend and live
192
00:12:12,982 --> 00:12:16,486
in a so-called same-sex
marriage situation.
193
00:12:16,486 --> 00:12:21,699
We also need politicians,
policymakers, and officials
194
00:12:21,699 --> 00:12:25,828
to increase their attention
to what is best for children,
195
00:12:25,828 --> 00:12:29,791
in contrast to the selfish
interest of voters
196
00:12:29,791 --> 00:12:32,752
and vocal advocates
of adult interests.
197
00:12:35,630 --> 00:12:37,632
DAVID: Mormonism is very
different from Protestantism,
198
00:12:37,632 --> 00:12:40,593
and part of that has to do
with the role of leaders.
199
00:12:40,593 --> 00:12:43,429
What makes the difference is
the way the leaders, or oracles,
200
00:12:43,429 --> 00:12:45,473
leaders of the voice of God
or the divine...
201
00:12:47,225 --> 00:12:50,478
It's tough to understand
the Church's motivations,
202
00:12:50,478 --> 00:12:54,107
unless you've been Mormon
or maybe Scientologist,
203
00:12:54,107 --> 00:12:57,527
one of these all-consuming,
all-in religions.
204
00:12:57,527 --> 00:13:00,613
There is no part of the country
where 70%
205
00:13:00,613 --> 00:13:03,783
or 67% of the population
belongs to a single faith,
206
00:13:03,783 --> 00:13:05,410
so the Church is
a big employer.
207
00:13:05,410 --> 00:13:07,286
It also owns property.
208
00:13:07,286 --> 00:13:11,290
It may be the largest single
landowner in the area.
209
00:13:11,290 --> 00:13:14,002
Everybody here talks about
religion all the time.
210
00:13:14,002 --> 00:13:16,504
That means they talk
about the Church,
211
00:13:16,504 --> 00:13:18,339
and there's no doubt
about which Church it is.
212
00:13:19,924 --> 00:13:22,176
Nothing's about to happen
at the Capital
213
00:13:22,176 --> 00:13:24,887
that the Church
doesn't 100% endorse.
214
00:13:24,887 --> 00:13:28,766
It absolutely will get its way
on LGBT issues,
215
00:13:28,766 --> 00:13:30,351
on marriage issues.
216
00:13:30,351 --> 00:13:32,270
CROWD: Equal rights!
217
00:13:32,270 --> 00:13:35,189
REPORTER: From a PR perspective,
it's been a tough couple years
218
00:13:35,189 --> 00:13:37,900
for the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-day Saints.
219
00:13:37,900 --> 00:13:39,861
Recently, there have been
angry protests
220
00:13:39,861 --> 00:13:41,446
outside Mormon temples
221
00:13:41,446 --> 00:13:43,865
over the Church's
support of Proposition 8.
222
00:13:43,865 --> 00:13:45,533
Yours a Church
that has experienced
223
00:13:45,533 --> 00:13:48,745
extraordinary persecution
and discrimination.
224
00:13:48,745 --> 00:13:52,582
Children killed,
homes burned, women raped,
225
00:13:52,582 --> 00:13:56,252
entire populations pushed
across the Great Plains.
226
00:13:56,252 --> 00:13:58,004
Why would you want to tell
another group of people
227
00:13:58,004 --> 00:14:00,214
what they can't do by law?
228
00:14:00,214 --> 00:14:03,468
We were for marriage
between a man and a woman.
229
00:14:03,468 --> 00:14:04,969
But gays and lesbians
are saying,
230
00:14:04,969 --> 00:14:07,472
"We, too,
are a persecuted group.
231
00:14:07,472 --> 00:14:10,224
We, too, deserve our rights
under the law."
232
00:14:10,224 --> 00:14:11,976
But what I'm saying,
233
00:14:11,976 --> 00:14:16,314
this isn't because
it's directed at another group.
234
00:14:16,314 --> 00:14:17,565
It's for the protection
235
00:14:17,565 --> 00:14:20,276
of a 5,000-year history
of marriage
236
00:14:20,276 --> 00:14:22,028
being between a man and a woman.
237
00:14:22,028 --> 00:14:25,740
One of the doctrines,
which is unique in Mormonism,
238
00:14:25,740 --> 00:14:28,493
is that marriage
is for eternity.
239
00:14:28,493 --> 00:14:30,578
That is one
of the most satisfying
240
00:14:30,578 --> 00:14:33,664
and, we think,
beautiful doctrines.
241
00:14:33,664 --> 00:14:36,417
Before you even had a sense
of your identity
242
00:14:36,417 --> 00:14:38,002
or your attraction,
243
00:14:38,002 --> 00:14:40,838
you were taught--
find a mate and have a family.
244
00:14:40,838 --> 00:14:42,882
That is what God wants.
245
00:14:42,882 --> 00:14:45,968
If I'm gay,
and I'm not gonna get married,
246
00:14:45,968 --> 00:14:48,638
then I'm a threat
to the eternal family,
247
00:14:48,638 --> 00:14:52,475
not only for me,
but my parents think
248
00:14:52,475 --> 00:14:55,853
I'm not gonna be part
of their eternal family.
249
00:14:55,853 --> 00:14:58,356
NARRATOR: Inside sacred
buildings called "temples,"
250
00:14:58,356 --> 00:15:01,567
couples can be married not
just until death do you part,
251
00:15:01,567 --> 00:15:03,027
but for eternity,
252
00:15:03,027 --> 00:15:04,821
so families
can be together forever,
253
00:15:04,821 --> 00:15:06,614
even after death.
254
00:15:06,614 --> 00:15:09,367
Who made this possible?
God did.
255
00:15:09,367 --> 00:15:11,953
Why? God isn't
just our creator.
256
00:15:11,953 --> 00:15:15,832
He's our father.
We are his children, his family.
257
00:15:15,832 --> 00:15:19,043
That's the big picture,
and we're all part of it.
258
00:15:37,186 --> 00:15:40,982
It was around 2010 that I was
diagnosed with cancer,
259
00:15:40,982 --> 00:15:42,692
with lung cancer.
260
00:15:42,692 --> 00:15:45,027
I went into chemotherapy
261
00:15:45,027 --> 00:15:48,239
and just took a couple years
off of my life,
262
00:15:48,239 --> 00:15:49,866
and I came out of it different.
263
00:15:49,866 --> 00:15:52,702
Felt like I've got
this second chance now.
264
00:15:52,702 --> 00:15:55,246
Let's do something.
265
00:15:55,246 --> 00:15:58,291
I have a pile of regrets
like this,
266
00:15:58,291 --> 00:16:02,461
and some of the things
I wish I had done, I didn't.
267
00:16:03,671 --> 00:16:05,089
So the lawsuit actually started
268
00:16:05,089 --> 00:16:07,925
from a discussion group
on Facebook.
269
00:16:07,925 --> 00:16:10,761
I said, "I am putting together
a federal lawsuit
270
00:16:10,761 --> 00:16:13,514
to overturn Utah's ban
on gay marriage."
271
00:16:13,514 --> 00:16:15,349
Then we started meeting
in coffee shops
272
00:16:15,349 --> 00:16:17,351
and started talking about it.
273
00:16:17,351 --> 00:16:20,730
I contacted Mark
on the comment board and said,
274
00:16:20,730 --> 00:16:22,690
"I'm interested. When, where?"
275
00:16:22,690 --> 00:16:24,901
We thought it was crazy,
276
00:16:24,901 --> 00:16:26,819
and there was no way in hell
it would happen,
277
00:16:26,819 --> 00:16:29,030
except we were going to try.
278
00:16:29,030 --> 00:16:31,032
None of us had PR experience.
279
00:16:31,032 --> 00:16:34,827
None of us had experience
in legislation,
280
00:16:34,827 --> 00:16:38,789
in fundraising, certainly.
281
00:16:38,789 --> 00:16:41,250
We just had will.
282
00:16:41,250 --> 00:16:44,754
And I started contacting
community leaders saying,
283
00:16:44,754 --> 00:16:46,631
"Let's do this."
284
00:16:46,631 --> 00:16:48,424
They couldn't get
onboard with it,
285
00:16:48,424 --> 00:16:50,218
and that really,
really pissed me off.
286
00:16:50,218 --> 00:16:52,261
I went to the ACLU
and they said,
287
00:16:52,261 --> 00:16:53,971
"You can't possibly be serious."
288
00:16:53,971 --> 00:16:56,015
It was almost like
he was going door-to-door
289
00:16:56,015 --> 00:16:57,975
trying to find someone.
290
00:16:57,975 --> 00:17:01,604
I think I sent out a whole
bunch of emails one day,
291
00:17:01,604 --> 00:17:04,899
and Magleby & Greenwood,
Jim Magleby responded.
292
00:17:04,899 --> 00:17:09,445
[tape recorder clicking]
293
00:17:09,445 --> 00:17:14,492
"Friday, February 8th, 2013,
3:55 p.m., from Mark Lawrence.
294
00:17:14,492 --> 00:17:17,245
I represent an organization
that is working
295
00:17:17,245 --> 00:17:19,830
to challenge Utah's
Amendment 3 in federal court.
296
00:17:19,830 --> 00:17:21,457
We are now seeking a legal team.
297
00:17:21,457 --> 00:17:23,793
Is this something that you
would be interested in?"
298
00:17:23,793 --> 00:17:28,047
And we responded, "Mr. Lawrence,
I would be very interested
299
00:17:28,047 --> 00:17:29,090
in our firm
representing your group,
300
00:17:29,090 --> 00:17:31,008
but cannot work pro bono.
301
00:17:31,008 --> 00:17:33,511
If you'd like to meet with me
and my partner Peggy Thompson,
302
00:17:33,511 --> 00:17:35,554
please let us know."
303
00:17:35,554 --> 00:17:36,597
That was the beginning.
304
00:17:39,517 --> 00:17:42,728
I really had respect for him
305
00:17:42,728 --> 00:17:47,066
for being someone who is not
involved in any organization
306
00:17:47,066 --> 00:17:49,735
nationally or locally,
that had any power,
307
00:17:49,735 --> 00:17:53,990
and had just decided on his own
he was gonna do this.
308
00:17:53,990 --> 00:17:56,409
I thought, "You know what?
That takes a lotta chutzpah."
309
00:17:56,409 --> 00:17:59,537
And he said,
"I'm looking for lawyers
310
00:17:59,537 --> 00:18:03,874
who can handle a really nasty
fight with the state of Utah."
311
00:18:03,874 --> 00:18:06,085
Then Jim, because
he owns the firm,
312
00:18:06,085 --> 00:18:08,254
and it's an economic decision,
313
00:18:08,254 --> 00:18:11,299
asked the right question:
"Who's gonna pay for this?"
314
00:18:11,299 --> 00:18:12,883
You'd never guess it
by looking at him,
315
00:18:12,883 --> 00:18:14,844
but he is an eternal optimist,
316
00:18:14,844 --> 00:18:18,347
and he said, "We'll get
the gay community in Utah.
317
00:18:18,347 --> 00:18:21,058
We'll even get donations
nationwide
318
00:18:21,058 --> 00:18:23,436
because we're going to do this."
319
00:18:23,436 --> 00:18:25,938
"Oh, don't worry.
I can raise--"
320
00:18:25,938 --> 00:18:29,650
We estimated it'd be around
a million dollars to do this.
321
00:18:29,650 --> 00:18:33,487
He said, "Oh, I can raise this.
There is no issue."
322
00:18:33,487 --> 00:18:35,698
I'm thinking in my mind,
"This guy has no connections
323
00:18:35,698 --> 00:18:37,366
with anybody on Earth.
324
00:18:37,366 --> 00:18:39,493
There is no way this guy's
gonna raise any money."
325
00:18:39,493 --> 00:18:41,412
And I think, "Do I care?"
326
00:18:41,412 --> 00:18:44,290
I think no, I don't care because
it's the right thing to do.
327
00:18:44,290 --> 00:18:48,419
So I go, "Yeah, I'm sure
that that can happen."
328
00:18:48,419 --> 00:18:50,421
So we decided to take it on.
329
00:18:58,554 --> 00:19:00,723
♪ Happy birthday to you ♪
330
00:19:00,723 --> 00:19:04,226
♪ Happy birthday,
dear Marcelino ♪
331
00:19:04,226 --> 00:19:06,687
♪ Happy birthday to you ♪
332
00:19:06,687 --> 00:19:08,606
♪ And many more ♪
333
00:19:08,606 --> 00:19:09,774
Here's your seat.
334
00:19:09,774 --> 00:19:12,610
So you're 13!
335
00:19:12,610 --> 00:19:14,445
Yay!
336
00:19:17,948 --> 00:19:20,451
PEGGY: I didn't really come out
to my parents.
337
00:19:20,451 --> 00:19:24,205
Someone outted me to my mother,
and she called me.
338
00:19:24,205 --> 00:19:27,583
Told me I was not allowed
to bring any girlfriends home.
339
00:19:27,583 --> 00:19:29,794
And I said,
"Well, I'm sorry to hear that
340
00:19:29,794 --> 00:19:32,088
because you aren't
gonna be seeing me."
341
00:19:32,088 --> 00:19:37,510
It was really a very dangerous
time for lesbians and gay men.
342
00:19:37,510 --> 00:19:38,969
You got beat up.
343
00:19:38,969 --> 00:19:41,806
You got your car windows
broken out.
344
00:19:41,806 --> 00:19:43,808
Joe Redburn,
who owned The Sun,
345
00:19:43,808 --> 00:19:47,478
hired security to walk people
from the bar to your car,
346
00:19:47,478 --> 00:19:51,482
but still, people would go by
and grab people off the street.
347
00:19:53,943 --> 00:19:58,656
I met her at a dinner
at her house.
348
00:19:58,656 --> 00:20:01,242
We were out on the patio, and
a baby bird flew out of the tree
349
00:20:01,242 --> 00:20:02,660
and landed on my shoulder
350
00:20:02,660 --> 00:20:04,995
and starting eating food
off my plate,
351
00:20:04,995 --> 00:20:06,497
and she came over,
352
00:20:06,497 --> 00:20:09,166
and we played with
this baby bird and fed it
353
00:20:09,166 --> 00:20:13,129
and just started
talking to each other.
354
00:20:13,129 --> 00:20:16,924
In all candor, I was an asshole
at that point in my life.
355
00:20:16,924 --> 00:20:19,385
I was making a lot of money.
356
00:20:19,385 --> 00:20:21,971
I had no obligations,
357
00:20:21,971 --> 00:20:25,683
and I drove
a 911 Porsche Cabriolet.
358
00:20:25,683 --> 00:20:29,145
I thought I was
the coolest thing walking,
359
00:20:29,145 --> 00:20:33,566
but I was dispelled of it
very quickly after I met Cindy.
360
00:20:36,026 --> 00:20:38,654
I had to work on a project
over the weekend,
361
00:20:38,654 --> 00:20:42,241
and I had asked the senior
lawyer's secretary to come in.
362
00:20:42,241 --> 00:20:45,286
She is Marcelino's grandmother.
363
00:20:45,286 --> 00:20:46,495
I had never met him.
364
00:20:46,495 --> 00:20:48,330
He just turned
three years old.
365
00:20:48,330 --> 00:20:50,666
And I got out
these little books,
366
00:20:50,666 --> 00:20:53,961
and I read them to him,
and he was just laughing.
367
00:20:53,961 --> 00:20:57,131
About two weeks later,
he came in with his mother,
368
00:20:57,131 --> 00:20:58,841
kind of beat up,
369
00:20:58,841 --> 00:21:02,136
and he saw me in the hall,
and he grabbed me and said,
370
00:21:02,136 --> 00:21:03,804
"Please take me home with you."
371
00:21:03,804 --> 00:21:06,599
One day in the middle
of the day,
372
00:21:06,599 --> 00:21:09,268
I got a call from
Marcelino's great grandmother.
373
00:21:09,268 --> 00:21:14,356
She said, "Peggy, I am too old
to be raising this child.
374
00:21:14,356 --> 00:21:15,733
Can you he come
live with you?"
375
00:21:15,733 --> 00:21:17,109
We said of course.
376
00:21:18,903 --> 00:21:21,238
Like with all my cases,
377
00:21:21,238 --> 00:21:24,950
I believe in my clients,
and I want to win.
378
00:21:24,950 --> 00:21:27,161
But in this particular case,
379
00:21:27,161 --> 00:21:29,205
it's very personal to me
380
00:21:29,205 --> 00:21:32,583
because if I could
accomplish this,
381
00:21:32,583 --> 00:21:35,002
I could ask Cindy to marry me,
382
00:21:35,002 --> 00:21:39,006
and I'd be able
to adopt Marcelino.
383
00:21:39,006 --> 00:21:42,218
Only Cindy had been
able to adopt him.
384
00:21:42,218 --> 00:21:46,138
I've been his mom since he
first asked me to take him home.
385
00:21:46,138 --> 00:21:48,390
If something happens to Cindy,
386
00:21:48,390 --> 00:21:52,228
I would have no rights.
None.
387
00:21:52,228 --> 00:21:58,859
So I personally believe in this
to the bottom of my heart.
388
00:22:22,967 --> 00:22:24,343
GOD: Joseph?
389
00:22:27,346 --> 00:22:29,139
Joseph.
390
00:22:30,558 --> 00:22:34,353
This is my beloved son.
391
00:22:34,353 --> 00:22:36,063
Hear him.
392
00:22:37,898 --> 00:22:42,278
Joseph, thy sins
are forgiven thee.
393
00:22:42,278 --> 00:22:44,154
Behold.
394
00:22:44,154 --> 00:22:47,157
I am the Lord of Glory.
395
00:22:47,157 --> 00:22:50,744
At a future time,
the complete truth of the Gospel
396
00:22:50,744 --> 00:22:53,581
will be revealed to you.
397
00:23:00,754 --> 00:23:04,091
After this vision, Joseph Smith
founds the Mormon Church
398
00:23:04,091 --> 00:23:07,553
in an upstate New York
farming community in 1830.
399
00:23:09,221 --> 00:23:12,349
And by all accounts,
he is charismatic,
400
00:23:12,349 --> 00:23:17,688
and he quickly develops a small,
but loyal following.
401
00:23:17,688 --> 00:23:20,274
What he sees is that his Church
402
00:23:20,274 --> 00:23:23,152
and the Church he believes
that Jesus Christ founded
403
00:23:23,152 --> 00:23:27,823
is one and the same,
and it had been lost.
404
00:23:27,823 --> 00:23:30,909
But not only that,
he even saw Jesus' project
405
00:23:30,909 --> 00:23:33,662
in some ways
was not really fulfilled.
406
00:23:36,081 --> 00:23:39,668
And what he was doing was
bringing back together
407
00:23:39,668 --> 00:23:42,087
all of the things
that had been lost.
408
00:23:44,089 --> 00:23:47,468
And that included polygamy
as a restoration
409
00:23:47,468 --> 00:23:50,137
of an ancient practice
that had been lost
410
00:23:50,137 --> 00:23:53,766
and that was a key feature of
what the heavens looked like.
411
00:23:56,685 --> 00:23:59,438
This becomes a very secret
practice by Smith
412
00:23:59,438 --> 00:24:03,192
and some high-ranking men
in the Church.
413
00:24:03,192 --> 00:24:05,277
Whispers about plural marriage
414
00:24:05,277 --> 00:24:07,404
and, in some cases,
underage brides
415
00:24:07,404 --> 00:24:10,616
begins to leak out
into the society.
416
00:24:10,616 --> 00:24:14,912
And this becomes
a boiling point for Smith.
417
00:24:14,912 --> 00:24:17,331
TAYLOR: As the rumors
started to spread,
418
00:24:17,331 --> 00:24:19,917
he was framed as sex-crazed,
419
00:24:19,917 --> 00:24:23,420
rather than been seen in the
light he wanted to see himself,
420
00:24:23,420 --> 00:24:27,716
as a prophet restoring
a divine institution.
421
00:24:31,178 --> 00:24:33,347
JENNIFER:
So as the Church grows,
422
00:24:33,347 --> 00:24:36,183
so does the discomfort
that outsiders are having
423
00:24:36,183 --> 00:24:37,935
with Mormon teachings.
424
00:24:37,935 --> 00:24:39,478
TAYLOR:
There were conflicts between
425
00:24:39,478 --> 00:24:41,855
these different communities.
426
00:24:41,855 --> 00:24:45,567
And Governor Boggs of Missouri
427
00:24:45,567 --> 00:24:48,278
declared an extermination order
on Mormons.
428
00:24:52,074 --> 00:24:54,743
They appealed to
the federal government for help,
429
00:24:54,743 --> 00:24:58,330
who was not willing
to rescue them.
430
00:24:58,330 --> 00:25:02,292
Joseph Smith was
taken to a jail.
431
00:25:02,292 --> 00:25:05,462
A mob assembled outside.
432
00:25:05,462 --> 00:25:07,756
They overpowered those
who were inside
433
00:25:07,756 --> 00:25:10,467
and killed Joseph
and his brother.
434
00:25:14,304 --> 00:25:18,350
This forces them to move west,
hoping they can find a place
435
00:25:18,350 --> 00:25:20,728
where they will be outside
the reach of government.
436
00:25:24,565 --> 00:25:26,817
They end up
in the Utah territory,
437
00:25:26,817 --> 00:25:29,862
which is just outside the
boundaries of the United States.
438
00:25:31,905 --> 00:25:33,699
Zion, they would call it,
439
00:25:33,699 --> 00:25:36,785
where they can have the Church
be the center of their life.
440
00:25:36,785 --> 00:25:39,830
It's a theocracy,
not a democracy.
441
00:25:41,999 --> 00:25:44,334
TAYLOR: They were defenders
of religious freedom,
442
00:25:44,334 --> 00:25:47,129
and they lost this battle
against the federal government.
443
00:25:47,129 --> 00:25:49,339
They took it all the way
to the Supreme Court,
444
00:25:49,339 --> 00:25:50,632
and the Supreme Court said,
445
00:25:50,632 --> 00:25:52,593
"You do not have
the religious freedom
446
00:25:52,593 --> 00:25:57,139
to practice your religion
as you believe it."
447
00:25:57,139 --> 00:25:59,808
The federal government
is not gonna allow Utah
448
00:25:59,808 --> 00:26:03,437
to join the Union if they
insist on keeping religion
449
00:26:03,437 --> 00:26:06,440
at the center of public life
and practicing polygamy.
450
00:26:11,487 --> 00:26:15,282
Mormons decided
they could no longer sustain
451
00:26:15,282 --> 00:26:17,284
their practices of polygamy
452
00:26:17,284 --> 00:26:21,455
without endless conflict
with the federal government.
453
00:26:23,290 --> 00:26:25,292
ROBERT: It finally came time
454
00:26:25,292 --> 00:26:27,669
to make this decision
about statehood.
455
00:26:27,669 --> 00:26:31,757
Polygamy, as deeply ingrained
as it was in Mormon culture,
456
00:26:31,757 --> 00:26:35,260
was worth sacrificing
to gain statehood.
457
00:26:36,970 --> 00:26:38,430
TAYLOR: That moment
had a powerful impact
458
00:26:38,430 --> 00:26:40,307
for future generations
of Mormons
459
00:26:40,307 --> 00:26:42,810
who believed that they
could at anytime
460
00:26:42,810 --> 00:26:44,561
be persecuted to such a degree
461
00:26:44,561 --> 00:26:46,647
that they would have to flee
and fear for their lives.
462
00:26:49,316 --> 00:26:51,860
STEVE: There is
a huge persecution complex.
463
00:26:51,860 --> 00:26:53,779
You could say
it comes from the government,
464
00:26:53,779 --> 00:26:58,116
forcing the Church to change
practices on polygamy.
465
00:26:58,116 --> 00:27:03,580
But I think it comes down
to a doctrine of good and evil.
466
00:27:03,580 --> 00:27:07,000
The more the Church is being
persecuted and criticized,
467
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,210
the truer it is.
468
00:27:43,745 --> 00:27:45,956
DEREK: You've tried all of
our products before, right?
469
00:27:45,956 --> 00:27:47,958
MAN: Yeah.
470
00:27:47,958 --> 00:27:50,168
DEREK: I thought so.
471
00:27:50,168 --> 00:27:52,880
And our last one
is a garlic spread.
472
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,048
A tablespoon
is about five cloves.
473
00:27:55,048 --> 00:27:57,426
We use this the same way
a condiment is used
474
00:27:57,426 --> 00:27:58,802
on a burger or a sandwich.
475
00:28:04,933 --> 00:28:06,476
- Having fun?
- Yeah.
476
00:28:06,476 --> 00:28:07,811
MARK: I was in a meeting.
477
00:28:07,811 --> 00:28:09,605
That's where I met
Derek and Moudi.
478
00:28:09,605 --> 00:28:11,899
I said, "I am putting together
a federal lawsuit
479
00:28:11,899 --> 00:28:14,109
to overturn Utah's ban
on gay marriage.
480
00:28:14,109 --> 00:28:15,736
We need some plaintiffs."
481
00:28:15,736 --> 00:28:17,696
At first, they didn't
take me seriously.
482
00:28:17,696 --> 00:28:19,197
Moudi's response was, "No.
483
00:28:19,197 --> 00:28:21,950
I don't think we can do
do something like that."
484
00:28:21,950 --> 00:28:24,411
It was this man who
was really determined,
485
00:28:24,411 --> 00:28:28,248
and it was almost
off-putting to me at first.
486
00:28:28,248 --> 00:28:30,042
MARK: I said, "Why don't you
think about it?
487
00:28:30,042 --> 00:28:31,460
Just give it some thought."
488
00:28:31,460 --> 00:28:34,588
Pfft! Utah? Yeah, right.
Good luck with that.
489
00:28:34,588 --> 00:28:36,673
MARK: So I started
following up with them.
490
00:28:36,673 --> 00:28:38,425
I would talk to them
a little bit more.
491
00:28:38,425 --> 00:28:41,094
DEREK: Even though I wanted
to be married,
492
00:28:41,094 --> 00:28:43,221
I didn't take him seriously
493
00:28:43,221 --> 00:28:48,185
or the idea of bringing marriage
equality seriously to Utah.
494
00:28:48,185 --> 00:28:50,979
About three months after
we met him the first time,
495
00:28:50,979 --> 00:28:53,690
he gave me a call,
and he said,
496
00:28:53,690 --> 00:28:55,275
"I have a couple of attorneys.
497
00:28:55,275 --> 00:28:56,693
Would you and Moudi
like to meet?"
498
00:28:56,693 --> 00:28:58,820
It legitimized the concept to me
499
00:28:58,820 --> 00:29:01,281
in a way that he was
never capable of doing.
500
00:29:01,281 --> 00:29:04,242
Because it is then that
I felt comfortable, actually.
501
00:29:04,242 --> 00:29:09,206
I felt as if
I would have two people
502
00:29:09,206 --> 00:29:11,667
that understand
what they're doing.
503
00:29:11,667 --> 00:29:16,964
And we realized that
this would become...
504
00:29:16,964 --> 00:29:20,509
a case centered on us
and our story.
505
00:29:20,509 --> 00:29:23,971
It really relied on
our own desire to marry.
506
00:29:23,971 --> 00:29:27,265
I have to this, but it wasn't
Mark that was involved.
507
00:29:27,265 --> 00:29:29,267
It wasn't a story about Mark,
508
00:29:29,267 --> 00:29:32,104
which is not a story I was
willing to buy into originally.
509
00:29:32,104 --> 00:29:37,943
There was not this kink
in the chain, if you will.
510
00:29:37,943 --> 00:29:41,071
MARK: They were perfect 'cause
they've been together for years.
511
00:29:41,071 --> 00:29:45,117
They owned a business together,
and they had so much at stake.
512
00:29:45,117 --> 00:29:47,911
I just liked 'em.
I thought they were great guys.
513
00:29:47,911 --> 00:29:50,038
They were pretty.
514
00:29:50,038 --> 00:29:52,457
Put 'em out there in the press.
515
00:29:52,457 --> 00:29:56,128
They were both very, very smart,
very well-spoken.
516
00:29:56,128 --> 00:29:59,423
We came to the conclusion that
it was the right thing to do,
517
00:29:59,423 --> 00:30:02,050
and we were the right people
to do it.
518
00:30:02,050 --> 00:30:05,220
If it's not gonna be us,
then who else would do it?
519
00:30:05,220 --> 00:30:08,015
They came back, and we talked.
They both said, "You know what?
520
00:30:08,015 --> 00:30:10,183
We'll take the consequences."
521
00:30:10,183 --> 00:30:14,271
And then Derek said, "I want
my name to be the name."
522
00:30:14,271 --> 00:30:17,983
I think I signed on
as the bride at that time.
523
00:30:21,111 --> 00:30:23,113
LAURIE: We're just
English teacher geeks.
524
00:30:23,113 --> 00:30:25,365
Sometimes
we're little old ladies.
525
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:28,577
KODY: My dear friend.
526
00:30:28,577 --> 00:30:29,995
We were sitting
and talking about her day,
527
00:30:29,995 --> 00:30:33,165
and she said, "Do you, really?"
528
00:30:33,165 --> 00:30:37,044
"Would you consider joining in
the case and suing the state
529
00:30:37,044 --> 00:30:39,755
to overturn Amendment 3?"
530
00:30:39,755 --> 00:30:43,884
And I said, "I don't know.
I'll check on that."
531
00:30:45,343 --> 00:30:47,888
Yes, we have to do this.
I think this is great.
532
00:30:47,888 --> 00:30:49,431
I'm glad someone thought of it.
533
00:30:49,431 --> 00:30:51,308
Let's be a part of it.
534
00:30:51,308 --> 00:30:52,976
PEGGY: We wanted another couple,
535
00:30:52,976 --> 00:30:55,812
and Kody and Laurie
came in and talked to us.
536
00:30:55,812 --> 00:30:59,024
I just went, "Wow, this is it.
This is our group."
537
00:30:59,024 --> 00:31:01,860
LAURIE: I think I always wanted
to make a difference,
538
00:31:01,860 --> 00:31:05,530
but I used to joke
that I liked living in Utah
539
00:31:05,530 --> 00:31:08,617
because I could be a radical
and not leave the sofa.
540
00:31:08,617 --> 00:31:13,580
KODY: She walked me to work
that Monday and texted me
541
00:31:13,580 --> 00:31:17,667
and said, "Do you wanna be
the bride or the groom?"
542
00:31:20,003 --> 00:31:21,546
I said, "The bride, of course."
543
00:31:23,131 --> 00:31:25,884
- [laughter]
- Ohh!
544
00:31:43,819 --> 00:31:47,280
There was a major transition
that happens after World War II.
545
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,951
Mormons start to think
about same-sex sexual acts
546
00:31:50,951 --> 00:31:53,870
as a psychological condition.
547
00:31:53,870 --> 00:31:56,623
A new kind of person
is emerging.
548
00:31:56,623 --> 00:32:01,753
Homosexuality is, in fact,
a mental illness,
549
00:32:01,753 --> 00:32:04,256
which has reached
epidemiological proportions.
550
00:32:06,383 --> 00:32:08,885
The minister quoted
is reported to have said,
551
00:32:08,885 --> 00:32:12,889
"Two people of the same sex
can express love
552
00:32:12,889 --> 00:32:16,685
and deepen that love
by sexual intercourse."
553
00:32:16,685 --> 00:32:19,146
Those are ugly voices.
554
00:32:19,146 --> 00:32:21,565
They are loud and raspy.
555
00:32:21,565 --> 00:32:23,650
To the great Moses,
these perversions
556
00:32:23,650 --> 00:32:26,862
were an abomination
and a defilement
557
00:32:26,862 --> 00:32:28,947
worthy of death.
558
00:32:28,947 --> 00:32:32,367
TAYLOR: The idea
that someone is gay
559
00:32:32,367 --> 00:32:36,538
is an idea that Elder Kimball
strongly rejected.
560
00:32:36,538 --> 00:32:40,041
He believed that homosexuals
who were telling this story
561
00:32:40,041 --> 00:32:42,502
were perpetuating a satanic lie,
562
00:32:42,502 --> 00:32:44,087
and he's trying to teach people
563
00:32:44,087 --> 00:32:48,049
to train their minds
through a set of practices,
564
00:32:48,049 --> 00:32:51,678
like singing hymns, exercising.
565
00:32:51,678 --> 00:32:54,764
So his program of self-mastery
566
00:32:54,764 --> 00:32:58,810
is the cure to same-sex desires.
567
00:32:58,810 --> 00:33:02,814
[Kimball speaking]
568
00:33:05,317 --> 00:33:07,402
That's like playing
in the rapids.
569
00:33:07,402 --> 00:33:10,113
When you're in the whitewater,
things can happen fast.
570
00:33:26,004 --> 00:33:31,051
♪ So he sent me on my journey
down the river ♪
571
00:33:31,051 --> 00:33:35,972
♪ And he said he would
always climb on me ♪
572
00:33:35,972 --> 00:33:38,725
♪ He taught me the joy ♪
573
00:33:38,725 --> 00:33:40,727
There is a falsehood
that some are born
574
00:33:40,727 --> 00:33:42,812
with an attraction
to their own kind,
575
00:33:42,812 --> 00:33:44,648
and that they can do
nothing about it.
576
00:33:44,648 --> 00:33:46,650
They are just that way.
577
00:33:46,650 --> 00:33:49,110
And that is...
578
00:33:49,110 --> 00:33:53,281
That is a malicious,
destructive lie.
579
00:33:53,281 --> 00:33:54,866
Elder Boyd K. Packer,
580
00:33:54,866 --> 00:33:56,743
one of the highest-ranking
leaders of the Church,
581
00:33:56,743 --> 00:33:59,913
really takes on
the mantle of Kimball
582
00:33:59,913 --> 00:34:03,124
in combating homosexuality.
583
00:34:03,124 --> 00:34:05,043
BOYD: Now there are some men
who entice young men
584
00:34:05,043 --> 00:34:07,754
to join them
in these immoral acts.
585
00:34:07,754 --> 00:34:09,673
If you are ever approached
586
00:34:09,673 --> 00:34:12,842
to participate
in anything like that,
587
00:34:12,842 --> 00:34:16,638
that is the time
to vigorously resist.
588
00:34:16,638 --> 00:34:19,182
TAYLOR: There's this interesting
moment when Elder Packer,
589
00:34:19,182 --> 00:34:20,767
in his speech,
590
00:34:20,767 --> 00:34:24,354
praises a missionary
for assaulting his companion
591
00:34:24,354 --> 00:34:27,607
when his companion
made a sexual advance.
592
00:34:27,607 --> 00:34:32,237
My response was, "Well, thanks.
Somebody had to do it."
593
00:34:32,237 --> 00:34:36,157
[congregation laughing]
594
00:34:36,157 --> 00:34:38,243
It wouldn't be well
for a general authority
595
00:34:38,243 --> 00:34:41,496
to solve a problem in that way.
596
00:34:43,415 --> 00:34:45,583
Now, I'm not recommending
that course to you,
597
00:34:45,583 --> 00:34:47,502
my young friends,
598
00:34:47,502 --> 00:34:50,338
but I'm not omitting it.
599
00:34:50,338 --> 00:34:55,677
- You must--
- [congregation laughing]
600
00:34:55,677 --> 00:34:58,888
You must protect yourselves.
601
00:35:05,437 --> 00:35:09,190
We've witnessed a rapid
and increasing public acceptance
602
00:35:09,190 --> 00:35:11,735
of cohabitation
without marriage
603
00:35:11,735 --> 00:35:14,237
and same-sex marriage.
604
00:35:14,237 --> 00:35:17,824
The corresponding media
advocacy, education
605
00:35:17,824 --> 00:35:20,785
and even occupational
requirements
606
00:35:20,785 --> 00:35:24,789
pose difficult challenges
for Latter-day Saints.
607
00:35:24,789 --> 00:35:27,667
Within a year of when
Dallin Oaks became a member
608
00:35:27,667 --> 00:35:29,711
of the Quorum of
the Twelve Apostles,
609
00:35:29,711 --> 00:35:33,882
he wrote a lengthy memo
reflective of his own background
610
00:35:33,882 --> 00:35:38,219
as a justice
in the Utah Supreme Court.
611
00:35:38,219 --> 00:35:42,140
It became a playbook
for how the Church should
612
00:35:42,140 --> 00:35:46,603
and, in fact, did proceed
to defend its position
613
00:35:46,603 --> 00:35:50,940
against what he saw
as a possibility, eventually,
614
00:35:50,940 --> 00:35:53,860
of same-sex marriage
coming to the forefront
615
00:35:53,860 --> 00:35:56,237
of the gay rights movement.
616
00:35:56,237 --> 00:35:57,739
TAYLOR: He says
there's a potential
617
00:35:57,739 --> 00:35:59,908
for the normalization
of homosexuality
618
00:35:59,908 --> 00:36:02,952
that becomes so severe
that the Church must speak up.
619
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,207
REPORTER: In 1990,
three same-sex couples
620
00:36:07,207 --> 00:36:09,376
put Hawaii's tolerance
to the test
621
00:36:09,376 --> 00:36:11,503
when they applied
for marriage licenses.
622
00:36:11,503 --> 00:36:14,422
We grew up realizing that
marriage is the next progression
623
00:36:14,422 --> 00:36:16,674
after you find somebody
and fall in love with them.
624
00:36:16,674 --> 00:36:18,802
That's the next thing you do
is get married.
625
00:36:18,802 --> 00:36:22,055
I wanted to marry Ninia
early on in our relationship.
626
00:36:22,055 --> 00:36:25,100
It's unfortunate that
gay people can't do that.
627
00:36:25,100 --> 00:36:26,935
They can't just
run away and elope.
628
00:36:26,935 --> 00:36:29,354
GREG: The lawsuit in Hawaii
629
00:36:29,354 --> 00:36:31,773
represented the Church's entry
630
00:36:31,773 --> 00:36:34,150
formally
into the political arena
631
00:36:34,150 --> 00:36:36,152
on the subject
of same-sex marriage.
632
00:36:36,152 --> 00:36:38,988
A male and a female walk in,
and they're not married,
633
00:36:38,988 --> 00:36:41,074
and they want a license,
you give it to 'em.
634
00:36:41,074 --> 00:36:43,326
A male and a male
walk in and want a license,
635
00:36:43,326 --> 00:36:44,661
you won't give it to 'em.
636
00:36:44,661 --> 00:36:46,413
You are discriminating
against them.
637
00:36:46,413 --> 00:36:50,083
GREG: And this is where
the shockwave began
638
00:36:50,083 --> 00:36:52,877
that swept across
the Pacific Ocean
639
00:36:52,877 --> 00:36:56,214
and flooded the mainland
from coast to coast.
640
00:36:56,214 --> 00:37:00,635
TAYLOR: This sets off
alarm bells in Salt Lake City,
641
00:37:00,635 --> 00:37:04,389
and the Church goes into
full-response mode.
642
00:37:04,389 --> 00:37:06,224
It starts to
organize politically.
643
00:37:06,224 --> 00:37:08,810
It starts to organize
its teachings.
644
00:37:08,810 --> 00:37:11,104
There's a real push for thinking
645
00:37:11,104 --> 00:37:13,606
about heterosexuality
and the family
646
00:37:13,606 --> 00:37:15,692
and a new kind of mobilization
647
00:37:15,692 --> 00:37:19,446
of anti-gay politics
during this time period.
648
00:37:20,947 --> 00:37:22,323
In the context of all this,
649
00:37:22,323 --> 00:37:25,076
it issues
a political document called
650
00:37:25,076 --> 00:37:27,454
"The Family: A Proclamation
to the World."
651
00:37:27,454 --> 00:37:30,248
This document appeals
to members of the Church,
652
00:37:30,248 --> 00:37:33,042
but it also appeals
to judges and legislatures.
653
00:37:33,042 --> 00:37:36,796
I now take the opportunity
of reading to you
654
00:37:36,796 --> 00:37:38,631
this proclamation.
655
00:37:38,631 --> 00:37:42,135
It became central to
Mormon identity really quickly.
656
00:37:42,135 --> 00:37:44,387
Missionaries began
to hand out copies
657
00:37:44,387 --> 00:37:45,722
of the proclamation
on the family,
658
00:37:45,722 --> 00:37:47,474
saying this is what we believe.
659
00:37:47,474 --> 00:37:50,560
Members of the Church
began to frame copies of it
660
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:51,978
and hang it on their wall.
661
00:37:51,978 --> 00:37:54,731
It's really impossible
to overestimate
662
00:37:54,731 --> 00:38:00,195
the importance of this document
in Mormon teaching.
663
00:38:00,195 --> 00:38:02,864
We solemnly proclaim
that marriage
664
00:38:02,864 --> 00:38:06,993
between a man and a woman
is ordained of God,
665
00:38:06,993 --> 00:38:10,788
and the family is central
to the Creator's plan
666
00:38:10,788 --> 00:38:14,000
for the eternal destiny
of these children.
667
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:18,004
TAYLOR: This document doesn't
mention homosexuality at all,
668
00:38:18,004 --> 00:38:21,341
which is, in part, the genius.
669
00:38:21,341 --> 00:38:24,010
GORDON: "We further declare
that God has commanded
670
00:38:24,010 --> 00:38:27,263
that the sacred powers
of procreation
671
00:38:27,263 --> 00:38:30,099
are to be employed
only between man and woman
672
00:38:30,099 --> 00:38:32,936
lawfully wedded
as husband and wife.
673
00:38:32,936 --> 00:38:35,355
We call upon
responsible citizens
674
00:38:35,355 --> 00:38:38,191
and officers of government
everywhere
675
00:38:38,191 --> 00:38:39,734
to promote those measures
676
00:38:39,734 --> 00:38:43,154
designed to maintain
and strengthen the family
677
00:38:43,154 --> 00:38:46,241
as the fundamental unit
of society."
678
00:38:47,951 --> 00:38:49,911
TAYLOR: The conflict
between Mormons
679
00:38:49,911 --> 00:38:51,579
and gay rights activists,
680
00:38:51,579 --> 00:38:53,957
both within and outside
of the Church,
681
00:38:53,957 --> 00:38:58,461
becomes the defining issue
of modern Mormonism.
682
00:38:58,461 --> 00:39:00,088
JENNIFER: And so it's
in this climate
683
00:39:00,088 --> 00:39:04,259
that we see the predominantly
Mormon Utah legislature
684
00:39:04,259 --> 00:39:06,803
pass laws that ban
gay marriage,
685
00:39:06,803 --> 00:39:09,264
refuse to recognize
same-sex unions
686
00:39:09,264 --> 00:39:11,391
that are legal in other states,
687
00:39:11,391 --> 00:39:13,476
and that then leads
us to Amendment 3.
688
00:39:29,701 --> 00:39:32,954
Tonight same-sex marriage in
Utah is taking center stage.
689
00:39:32,954 --> 00:39:34,956
Three couples
are challenging the ban,
690
00:39:34,956 --> 00:39:37,500
saying it's unconstitutional.
691
00:39:37,500 --> 00:39:41,379
PEGGY: Having the ability to
walk into a federal courtroom
692
00:39:41,379 --> 00:39:43,756
in Salt Lake City, Utah,
693
00:39:43,756 --> 00:39:47,093
with a real federal judge
sitting behind the bench
694
00:39:47,093 --> 00:39:48,845
and being able to argue
695
00:39:48,845 --> 00:39:51,639
why the Constitution
did not permit
696
00:39:51,639 --> 00:39:56,603
a failure to recognize gays
and lesbians as equal citizens
697
00:39:56,603 --> 00:39:58,646
was something
I never dreamed I'd see
698
00:39:58,646 --> 00:40:00,231
in a courtroom in my life,
699
00:40:00,231 --> 00:40:02,775
let alone me being
the one that got to do it.
700
00:40:02,775 --> 00:40:04,819
JIM: Peggy is standing there,
701
00:40:04,819 --> 00:40:07,905
and Judge Shelby asked her
a question to the effect of,
702
00:40:07,905 --> 00:40:10,867
"If I rule on this,
will I be the first court
703
00:40:10,867 --> 00:40:13,369
to address these issues?"
704
00:40:13,369 --> 00:40:15,288
Peggy,
without missing a beat says,
705
00:40:15,288 --> 00:40:18,166
"Yes, congratulations."
706
00:40:18,166 --> 00:40:21,127
And the courtroom
erupts into laughter.
707
00:40:21,127 --> 00:40:23,963
I sat there and watched Peggy
for an hour and a half
708
00:40:23,963 --> 00:40:26,341
engaging with Judge Shelby.
709
00:40:26,341 --> 00:40:28,009
He didn't take his eyes off her.
710
00:40:28,009 --> 00:40:29,928
It was amazing.
That's when I realized
711
00:40:29,928 --> 00:40:31,554
what kind of an attorney
she was.
712
00:40:31,554 --> 00:40:33,848
She was an amazing woman.
It was brilliant.
713
00:40:33,848 --> 00:40:36,351
I just-- Wow.
I was in awe.
714
00:40:36,351 --> 00:40:40,480
Then we got to watch guys from
the Attorney General's office
715
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,399
make asses out of themselves
for 45 minutes.
716
00:40:43,399 --> 00:40:46,819
JIM: They tried really hard
to make this argument
717
00:40:46,819 --> 00:40:49,405
without bringing in God
and religion into it
718
00:40:49,405 --> 00:40:51,282
'cause they knew
they couldn't.
719
00:40:51,282 --> 00:40:54,410
In a United States court,
it's the culture of the state.
720
00:40:54,410 --> 00:40:56,412
The states hired LDS people,
721
00:40:56,412 --> 00:40:59,999
and they tried to make
a secular argument out of it,
722
00:40:59,999 --> 00:41:03,795
but it's not possible
for them to do.
723
00:41:03,795 --> 00:41:07,090
Judge Shelby-- and this,
I think, was kind of him--
724
00:41:07,090 --> 00:41:09,592
said he would let us know
by January 7th.
725
00:41:09,592 --> 00:41:11,761
That's why when
December 20th happened,
726
00:41:11,761 --> 00:41:12,929
nobody expected it.
727
00:41:18,434 --> 00:41:19,811
For you folks
who are just tuning in,
728
00:41:19,811 --> 00:41:22,063
Amendment 3
of Utah's Constitution
729
00:41:22,063 --> 00:41:24,857
has been declared
unconstitutional.
730
00:41:24,857 --> 00:41:26,859
So right now marriage licenses
731
00:41:26,859 --> 00:41:29,112
are being handed out
to same-sex couples.
732
00:41:29,112 --> 00:41:31,447
Some marriages are actually
being performed in Salt Lake.
733
00:41:31,447 --> 00:41:33,199
MARK: I was at work.
734
00:41:33,199 --> 00:41:36,160
About 2:00, we get an email
from Peggy: "We won."
735
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:37,787
To file a case in March
736
00:41:37,787 --> 00:41:41,541
and have a decision by
December 20th of the same year,
737
00:41:41,541 --> 00:41:45,169
it's never happened
in my 31 years of practice.
738
00:41:45,169 --> 00:41:47,630
DEREK: We received a phone call
that said,
739
00:41:47,630 --> 00:41:49,215
"Did you hear the news?"
740
00:41:49,215 --> 00:41:50,633
And they were like,
"No, what's the news?"
741
00:41:50,633 --> 00:41:52,135
They said, "You won."
742
00:41:52,135 --> 00:41:54,053
I got in my car.
743
00:41:54,053 --> 00:41:56,723
I drove to Cind--
I texted her. I said,
744
00:41:56,723 --> 00:41:59,517
"We won, we won, we won.
Will you marry me?
745
00:41:59,517 --> 00:42:02,270
I'm on my way to your office
to pick you up to get married."
746
00:42:02,270 --> 00:42:04,147
She goes, "We won what?"
747
00:42:04,147 --> 00:42:07,775
I go, "We won our case.
We can get married."
748
00:42:07,775 --> 00:42:09,819
And she goes,
"Of course I'll marry you."
749
00:42:09,819 --> 00:42:14,240
So I drive to her office,
and I text, "I'm here, I'm here.
750
00:42:14,240 --> 00:42:15,742
Come out, let's go."
751
00:42:15,742 --> 00:42:17,869
She texted me back,
"I'm a doctor.
752
00:42:17,869 --> 00:42:21,164
I'm with patients.
I cannot leave."
753
00:42:21,164 --> 00:42:24,000
I go, "Have 'em come.
They can be our witnesses."
754
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,587
It is an enormous day for Utah.
755
00:42:27,587 --> 00:42:29,756
Not only for same-sex couples,
756
00:42:29,756 --> 00:42:32,842
but it brings equality
to the entire state.
757
00:42:32,842 --> 00:42:34,343
Our case was very strong.
758
00:42:34,343 --> 00:42:37,847
Our law firm,
our legal team was brilliant.
759
00:42:37,847 --> 00:42:41,768
They were passionate,
and we told the truth.
760
00:42:41,768 --> 00:42:44,145
Now pronounce you wife and wife.
761
00:42:44,145 --> 00:42:48,775
I'm joined now by a couple who
just got married 15 seconds ago.
762
00:42:48,775 --> 00:42:50,651
You have been together
several years now.
763
00:42:50,651 --> 00:42:53,237
What does this mean for you?
764
00:42:53,237 --> 00:42:55,323
It means that we're
legally married
765
00:42:55,323 --> 00:42:58,117
in the eyes of the state.
766
00:42:58,117 --> 00:43:00,620
It means everything to us.
767
00:43:00,620 --> 00:43:03,539
Laurie and I looked
at each other, and we said,
768
00:43:03,539 --> 00:43:06,959
"Let's do this,"
and so we did.
769
00:43:06,959 --> 00:43:08,836
And it was...
770
00:43:11,756 --> 00:43:13,049
[sniffling]
771
00:43:15,718 --> 00:43:18,304
Um, it was unexpected.
772
00:43:18,304 --> 00:43:22,934
Then once I looked
into her eyes,
773
00:43:22,934 --> 00:43:25,436
and I said, "I do,"
774
00:43:25,436 --> 00:43:27,605
and I got to be her wife,
775
00:43:27,605 --> 00:43:30,942
then I really, really got it.
776
00:43:32,860 --> 00:43:35,947
It was as sacred as anything.
777
00:43:35,947 --> 00:43:41,118
And to have the entire
courtyard erupt in cheers,
778
00:43:41,118 --> 00:43:42,995
it was just fantastic.
779
00:43:42,995 --> 00:43:45,206
Of all the pictures
I've ever seen of me,
780
00:43:45,206 --> 00:43:49,669
I love that picture 'cause
I've never seen me happier.
781
00:43:52,630 --> 00:43:55,508
We kept asking ourselves
after the hearing
782
00:43:55,508 --> 00:43:58,970
when are they going to file
the motion to stay the ruling?
783
00:43:58,970 --> 00:44:01,389
We expect it's coming.
They've got some time.
784
00:44:01,389 --> 00:44:03,432
We know the judge
isn't gonna rule right away,
785
00:44:03,432 --> 00:44:05,518
but there's a chance
they might lose.
786
00:44:05,518 --> 00:44:09,397
And when the decision came down,
there was no stay.
787
00:44:09,397 --> 00:44:11,774
Now, at the time the Utah
Attorney General's office
788
00:44:11,774 --> 00:44:13,067
was a train wreck.
789
00:44:13,067 --> 00:44:15,611
They never bothered
filing a stay,
790
00:44:15,611 --> 00:44:18,197
which is a normal procedure
in a court proceeding.
791
00:44:18,197 --> 00:44:20,366
I guess they couldn't
even possibly imagine
792
00:44:20,366 --> 00:44:21,909
they were gonna lose this case.
793
00:44:21,909 --> 00:44:25,496
So I drive back to the office
and go in,
794
00:44:25,496 --> 00:44:29,542
and Judge Shelby's office calls
and said,
795
00:44:29,542 --> 00:44:33,880
"Judge Shelby wants you and
the state lawyer on the line."
796
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:35,506
"What's your question?"
797
00:44:35,506 --> 00:44:38,384
He goes, "We don't
understand your decision."
798
00:44:38,384 --> 00:44:41,637
"What do you mean, you don't
understand my decision?"
799
00:44:41,637 --> 00:44:46,309
"There's nothing in there saying
you're staying your decision,
800
00:44:46,309 --> 00:44:48,853
and we understand people
are getting married."
801
00:44:48,853 --> 00:44:51,314
I said, "I understand that too,
Your Honor."
802
00:44:51,314 --> 00:44:53,524
He said, "You didn't
file a motion
803
00:44:53,524 --> 00:44:55,776
to ask me to stay my decision.
804
00:44:55,776 --> 00:44:59,322
You tell me when you will
file your motion for a stay,
805
00:44:59,322 --> 00:45:01,532
and I'll immediately
hold a hearing."
806
00:45:01,532 --> 00:45:03,200
The lawyer for the state goes,
807
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,119
"I don't know
what we're gonna do."
808
00:45:05,119 --> 00:45:07,038
And Judge Shelby goes,
809
00:45:07,038 --> 00:45:11,375
"I guess there's nothing I can
do for you then. Good day."
810
00:45:11,375 --> 00:45:14,420
JIM: What the state of Utah
was asking Judge Shelby to do
811
00:45:14,420 --> 00:45:16,923
was rule on a motion
that they had never filed.
812
00:45:16,923 --> 00:45:20,134
If there had been a national
right-wing organization
813
00:45:20,134 --> 00:45:22,678
in the case that litigated
these things all the time,
814
00:45:22,678 --> 00:45:25,139
I guarantee you they would've
filed a motion for a stay.
815
00:45:25,139 --> 00:45:27,308
It seems to me they would've had
a pretty good argument.
816
00:45:27,308 --> 00:45:30,144
But their argument
was a whole lot worse
817
00:45:30,144 --> 00:45:33,814
once hundreds, maybe thousands,
of people had been married
818
00:45:33,814 --> 00:45:35,566
because how do you
unring that bell?
819
00:45:35,566 --> 00:45:38,986
They missed the movement
and took for granted
820
00:45:38,986 --> 00:45:41,906
that their worldview
was the worldview
821
00:45:41,906 --> 00:45:43,866
of everyone within
the confines of the state.
822
00:45:43,866 --> 00:45:45,785
And because there's
so little separation
823
00:45:45,785 --> 00:45:48,955
between Church and State
in Utah,
824
00:45:48,955 --> 00:45:52,541
I'm sure that officials
in the Attorney General's office
825
00:45:52,541 --> 00:45:54,043
not only believed
they were right,
826
00:45:54,043 --> 00:45:55,336
but they just believed
everyone else
827
00:45:55,336 --> 00:45:56,963
would think they were right.
828
00:45:56,963 --> 00:45:59,799
PEGGY: So we got our license,
we went downstairs.
829
00:45:59,799 --> 00:46:01,759
Mayor Becker was there,
and he said,
830
00:46:01,759 --> 00:46:05,429
"Peggy, can I perform
the marriage ceremony?"
831
00:46:05,429 --> 00:46:07,139
I said sure.
832
00:46:07,139 --> 00:46:10,476
So Mayor Becker said
to Marcelino,
833
00:46:10,476 --> 00:46:13,562
"How do you feel about this?"
after he performed the ceremony,
834
00:46:13,562 --> 00:46:17,024
and he goes, "Wow. Wow.
835
00:46:17,024 --> 00:46:19,860
Wow. My mom's been
finally married!"
836
00:46:19,860 --> 00:46:22,154
[chuckles]
So...
837
00:46:22,154 --> 00:46:25,700
The national media descends
on the state of Utah,
838
00:46:25,700 --> 00:46:29,870
and what do they see...
839
00:46:29,870 --> 00:46:36,168
but hundreds of loving couples
getting married.
840
00:46:36,168 --> 00:46:39,088
All their life,
"No, you're not good enough.
841
00:46:39,088 --> 00:46:41,799
You cannot have this.
You're second class.
842
00:46:41,799 --> 00:46:45,886
There they were getting married.
It was like an assembly line.
843
00:46:45,886 --> 00:46:49,181
And then I looked around,
and I realized all this time
844
00:46:49,181 --> 00:46:50,725
we've been saying
this isn't about kids.
845
00:46:50,725 --> 00:46:53,227
Friend of mine says,
"Do you know how many kids
846
00:46:53,227 --> 00:46:55,021
are gonna wake up
in the morning,
847
00:46:55,021 --> 00:46:56,522
and their parents are married,
848
00:46:56,522 --> 00:46:59,025
and their families
are gonna be equal?"
849
00:47:00,609 --> 00:47:04,572
Back in the corner,
there were these two women--
850
00:47:04,572 --> 00:47:07,241
later found out they'd
been together for 18 years--
851
00:47:07,241 --> 00:47:09,785
they were both standing there
holding their marriage license,
852
00:47:09,785 --> 00:47:13,080
just reading it
line by line and crying.
853
00:47:17,251 --> 00:47:18,919
And then you have
the angry villagers
854
00:47:18,919 --> 00:47:21,130
with their pitchforks
and torches
855
00:47:21,130 --> 00:47:24,467
down in Happy Valley screaming
and ranting and raving.
856
00:47:24,467 --> 00:47:26,427
These were people who were
tied to the LDS Church.
857
00:47:26,427 --> 00:47:29,013
These are Christians.
These are religious people.
858
00:47:29,013 --> 00:47:30,931
All they are down there is hate.
859
00:47:30,931 --> 00:47:33,601
Full of hate and anger
and rage,
860
00:47:33,601 --> 00:47:35,936
trying to figure out
how they're gonna fight
861
00:47:35,936 --> 00:47:40,399
people who are... in love.
862
00:47:40,399 --> 00:47:43,611
These organizations claim
to be pro-family. They're not.
863
00:47:43,611 --> 00:47:46,072
They're the worst
you can be for families.
864
00:47:46,072 --> 00:47:49,992
They're only pro-their-families
as they define them.
865
00:47:49,992 --> 00:47:51,744
REPORTER: Gayle Ruzika
of the Utah Eagle Forum
866
00:47:51,744 --> 00:47:54,038
lobbied heavily in favor
of Amendment 3,
867
00:47:54,038 --> 00:47:56,207
and says she and others
will continue to fight
868
00:47:56,207 --> 00:47:58,042
for traditional marriage.
869
00:47:58,042 --> 00:48:02,004
Marriage is a state issue.
It is not a federal issue.
870
00:48:02,004 --> 00:48:06,550
A federal judge does not
have the right to tell Utah
871
00:48:06,550 --> 00:48:09,261
what we're going to do
with our marriage laws.
872
00:48:09,261 --> 00:48:11,013
REPORTER: BYU law professor
Lynn Wardle
873
00:48:11,013 --> 00:48:13,557
has published extensively
for years
874
00:48:13,557 --> 00:48:16,352
his arguments
against same-sex marriage.
875
00:48:16,352 --> 00:48:18,687
What is the effect
of those marriages?
876
00:48:18,687 --> 00:48:21,232
That's a very tough
legal question.
877
00:48:24,276 --> 00:48:26,529
REPORTER: Governor Gary Herbert
issued this statement.
878
00:48:26,529 --> 00:48:28,781
"The state is requesting
an emergency stay
879
00:48:28,781 --> 00:48:30,616
on this ruling,
pending the appeal."
880
00:48:30,616 --> 00:48:32,618
GARY: This is
a significant decision.
881
00:48:32,618 --> 00:48:34,453
First in history.
882
00:48:34,453 --> 00:48:36,747
We will defend the law
that's on the books,
883
00:48:36,747 --> 00:48:39,875
which we do recognize
as the will of the people.
884
00:48:39,875 --> 00:48:43,003
I was a supporter of
Amendment 3 as a individual.
885
00:48:43,003 --> 00:48:46,340
I think that's the best way
to have family arrangements
886
00:48:46,340 --> 00:48:47,800
and the best chance
for children,
887
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,511
husband and wife,
father and mother.
888
00:48:50,511 --> 00:48:52,388
The Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-day Saints
889
00:48:52,388 --> 00:48:54,431
reacting to the ruling
in a statement.
890
00:48:54,431 --> 00:48:57,935
The Church says, "We continue
to believe that voters in Utah
891
00:48:57,935 --> 00:49:00,563
did the right thing
by providing clear direction
892
00:49:00,563 --> 00:49:02,648
in the State Constitution
893
00:49:02,648 --> 00:49:04,733
that marriage should be between
a man and a woman.
894
00:49:04,733 --> 00:49:08,737
We're hopeful this view will be
validated by a higher court."
895
00:49:08,737 --> 00:49:10,614
News specialist Sandra Yi's
live in Salt Lake City tonight
896
00:49:10,614 --> 00:49:12,408
with our top story.
897
00:49:12,408 --> 00:49:17,079
Sandra, how many counties
are refusing to issue licenses?
898
00:49:17,079 --> 00:49:20,207
Well, Dave, we called every
clerk's office in the state,
899
00:49:20,207 --> 00:49:23,002
and five do not have plans
to issue marriage licenses
900
00:49:23,002 --> 00:49:24,879
to same-sex couples.
901
00:49:24,879 --> 00:49:26,005
ANNOUNCER: News at Nine.
902
00:49:26,005 --> 00:49:27,715
Thank you for joining us.
903
00:49:27,715 --> 00:49:31,177
It was billed by organizers
as a call for an uprising
904
00:49:31,177 --> 00:49:34,138
after a federal court
decision voided Utah law
905
00:49:34,138 --> 00:49:35,514
against gay marriage.
906
00:49:35,514 --> 00:49:37,057
ANNIE: The event
is in Utah County.
907
00:49:37,057 --> 00:49:40,686
Fox 13's Todd Tanner
is live in Highland.
908
00:49:40,686 --> 00:49:42,438
The event was organized by
909
00:49:42,438 --> 00:49:45,774
the Constitutional Sheriffs
and Police Officers Association.
910
00:49:45,774 --> 00:49:48,485
Organizers and speakers here
say that basically
911
00:49:48,485 --> 00:49:50,779
Governor Herbert
has failed at his job,
912
00:49:50,779 --> 00:49:52,907
and it will be up
to law enforcement
913
00:49:52,907 --> 00:49:55,826
and everyday citizens
to deny gay marriage.
914
00:49:55,826 --> 00:49:57,703
We need people to stand up
and speak out.
915
00:49:57,703 --> 00:49:59,955
We need to get noisy.
We need some outrage.
916
00:49:59,955 --> 00:50:02,416
The way you take back freedom
in America
917
00:50:02,416 --> 00:50:04,168
is one county at a time.
918
00:50:04,168 --> 00:50:08,422
The sheriffs need to defend
the county clerks in saying no,
919
00:50:08,422 --> 00:50:11,550
we're not gonna issue marriage
licenses to homosexuals.
920
00:50:11,550 --> 00:50:13,302
[chatter]
921
00:50:25,231 --> 00:50:29,777
I wanna say this
to the homosexual community.
922
00:50:29,777 --> 00:50:33,030
We mean you no harm.
923
00:50:33,030 --> 00:50:35,282
First, we ask you
that you understand
924
00:50:35,282 --> 00:50:36,992
the history of America
925
00:50:36,992 --> 00:50:39,245
and that the intention
of the Founding Fathers
926
00:50:39,245 --> 00:50:42,373
in developing a Constitution
that does one thing:
927
00:50:42,373 --> 00:50:46,710
protect God-given,
innate rights.
928
00:50:46,710 --> 00:50:48,754
And these people fought
and died for this.
929
00:50:48,754 --> 00:50:52,925
Now we're going, "We'll write
whatever we say they are now."
930
00:50:52,925 --> 00:50:56,512
You're never going
to convince us
931
00:50:56,512 --> 00:50:59,098
that homosexual marriage
932
00:50:59,098 --> 00:51:02,309
is one of those innate,
God-given rights.
933
00:51:02,309 --> 00:51:04,144
It's not.
934
00:51:04,144 --> 00:51:07,189
It's not one of those rights.
935
00:51:07,189 --> 00:51:10,985
And we don't want any more of
your gay appreciation parades.
936
00:51:10,985 --> 00:51:12,611
And we don't want
any more of this,
937
00:51:12,611 --> 00:51:14,280
"We're gonna teach this
in the schools
938
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:17,199
without our permission
and without us being involved."
939
00:51:17,199 --> 00:51:19,285
We have rights,
940
00:51:19,285 --> 00:51:23,497
and we choose not to
teach that to our children,
941
00:51:23,497 --> 00:51:26,625
and we don't want you
teaching it to 'em either!
942
00:51:26,625 --> 00:51:31,588
[cheering]
943
00:51:31,588 --> 00:51:35,884
♪ Jesus said of everyone ♪
944
00:51:35,884 --> 00:51:40,264
♪ Treat them kindly too ♪
945
00:51:40,264 --> 00:51:44,727
♪ When your heart is
filled with love ♪
946
00:51:44,727 --> 00:51:48,731
♪ Others will love you ♪
947
00:51:52,443 --> 00:51:55,612
[crowd cheering]
948
00:51:55,612 --> 00:51:57,614
MAN: I would like
to introduce to you tonight
949
00:51:57,614 --> 00:52:00,743
the amazing brain
behind all this,
950
00:52:00,743 --> 00:52:05,164
the glue that stuck this
altogether for everybody,
951
00:52:05,164 --> 00:52:06,498
Mark Lawrence.
952
00:52:06,498 --> 00:52:10,919
[cheering]
953
00:52:10,919 --> 00:52:13,672
Judge Shelby has a new title.
954
00:52:13,672 --> 00:52:16,258
He is an activist judge.
955
00:52:16,258 --> 00:52:19,511
[cheering]
956
00:52:19,511 --> 00:52:21,847
I sat there and thought,
"What is an activist judge?"
957
00:52:21,847 --> 00:52:24,767
Apparently an activist judge
is a judge who understands
958
00:52:24,767 --> 00:52:27,186
the Constitution
of the United States.
959
00:52:27,186 --> 00:52:31,231
[cheering]
960
00:52:37,696 --> 00:52:41,909
REPORTER: Same-sex marriages
in Utah are now on hold.
961
00:52:41,909 --> 00:52:45,371
Today the US Supreme Court
granted the state a stay,
962
00:52:45,371 --> 00:52:47,581
which means gay couples in Utah
963
00:52:47,581 --> 00:52:50,209
will no longer receive
marriage licenses.
964
00:52:50,209 --> 00:52:53,170
But what about couples
that are already married?
965
00:52:53,170 --> 00:52:55,422
In a press conference
responding to the ruling,
966
00:52:55,422 --> 00:52:58,550
new Utah Attorney General
Sean Reyes says
967
00:52:58,550 --> 00:53:01,553
he doesn't know if marriages
between Utah same-sex couples
968
00:53:01,553 --> 00:53:03,055
will remain valid.
969
00:53:03,055 --> 00:53:05,057
This is precisely
the uncertainty
970
00:53:05,057 --> 00:53:06,809
we were hoping to avoid.
971
00:53:06,809 --> 00:53:09,770
REPORTER: Legal documents
filed to the U.S. Supreme Court,
972
00:53:09,770 --> 00:53:12,481
where Utah made its case
for a stay.
973
00:53:12,481 --> 00:53:14,900
The state went on to discuss
the possibility
974
00:53:14,900 --> 00:53:18,987
of same-sex marriages
being retroactively voided.
975
00:53:18,987 --> 00:53:21,156
Right now is a rough time
for gay couples
976
00:53:21,156 --> 00:53:23,575
who want to adopt a child
in the state of Utah.
977
00:53:23,575 --> 00:53:25,452
Although some couples
may have completed
978
00:53:25,452 --> 00:53:26,954
the adoption process,
979
00:53:26,954 --> 00:53:29,248
the state wants to put
those adoptions on hold.
980
00:53:29,248 --> 00:53:31,625
The City of Utah says
its constitutional authority
981
00:53:31,625 --> 00:53:34,044
to define marriage
should stay intact.
982
00:53:34,044 --> 00:53:36,130
That is according
to a legal brief filed
983
00:53:36,130 --> 00:53:38,632
with the Tenth Circuit Court
of Appeals late last night.
984
00:53:38,632 --> 00:53:40,342
Tonight political specialist
Richard Pye
985
00:53:40,342 --> 00:53:42,261
says the waiting game begins
986
00:53:42,261 --> 00:53:45,013
even as emotions simmer
over this issue.
987
00:53:45,013 --> 00:53:46,682
REPORTER:
State attorneys insist
988
00:53:46,682 --> 00:53:49,685
society can only have
one understanding of marriage
989
00:53:49,685 --> 00:53:52,187
as a one-man,
one-woman institution,
990
00:53:52,187 --> 00:53:53,981
the best for raising children.
991
00:53:53,981 --> 00:53:56,483
"Redefining marriage,"
the brief reads,
992
00:53:56,483 --> 00:53:59,528
"as a genderless,
adult-centric institution
993
00:53:59,528 --> 00:54:02,865
would fundamentally change
Utah's child-centered meaning
994
00:54:02,865 --> 00:54:04,450
and purpose of marriage."
995
00:54:04,450 --> 00:54:07,411
"Instead," the state says,
"the laws at issue here
996
00:54:07,411 --> 00:54:09,746
simply encourage
a familial structure
997
00:54:09,746 --> 00:54:12,541
that has served society
for thousands of years."
998
00:54:12,541 --> 00:54:15,377
At the legislature,
leadership in the Utah Senate
999
00:54:15,377 --> 00:54:17,171
quietly cheered this brief
1000
00:54:17,171 --> 00:54:19,673
on the basis of state
and religious freedom.
1001
00:54:19,673 --> 00:54:22,593
We feel it's a duty
to defend our jurisdiction
1002
00:54:22,593 --> 00:54:25,179
over the definition of marriage.
1003
00:54:25,179 --> 00:54:29,808
They really recognize
the issues of religious freedom.
1004
00:54:29,808 --> 00:54:33,645
They recognize the issues
of how do we raise children.
1005
00:54:33,645 --> 00:54:35,105
AMY: The case now goes before
1006
00:54:35,105 --> 00:54:36,857
a federal appeals court
in Denver,
1007
00:54:36,857 --> 00:54:40,068
but many expect it to find
its way to the Supreme Court.
1008
00:54:40,068 --> 00:54:41,904
A Supreme Court decision
could have
1009
00:54:41,904 --> 00:54:43,906
major repercussions
across the country.
1010
00:54:43,906 --> 00:54:45,782
If Utah's ban is overturned,
1011
00:54:45,782 --> 00:54:48,160
the same could happen
for same-sex marriage bans
1012
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:50,829
in nearly 30 other states.
1013
00:55:11,850 --> 00:55:14,061
MARK: The way things kept
falling into place
1014
00:55:14,061 --> 00:55:15,854
for this case,
1015
00:55:15,854 --> 00:55:18,815
I just got to a point where it
became so euphoric for a while,
1016
00:55:18,815 --> 00:55:22,069
we didn't think anything
could go wrong.
1017
00:55:22,069 --> 00:55:24,821
I was really, really convinced
this was gonna work
1018
00:55:24,821 --> 00:55:27,241
because we were
a small independent team
1019
00:55:27,241 --> 00:55:29,952
working together just for Utah.
1020
00:55:29,952 --> 00:55:33,038
But I was getting guff from
national organizations going,
1021
00:55:33,038 --> 00:55:36,833
"You shouldn't be doing this.
This is too big for you."
1022
00:55:36,833 --> 00:55:40,254
I just said, "Fuck you.
What are you doing?"
1023
00:55:40,254 --> 00:55:45,133
The pushback was phone calls
telling us that,
1024
00:55:45,133 --> 00:55:49,805
"You are a little law firm
in the backwater of the nation."
1025
00:55:49,805 --> 00:55:53,058
Everybody believed we would
never get it done here.
1026
00:55:53,058 --> 00:55:54,476
We're too red.
1027
00:55:54,476 --> 00:55:56,144
It's too conservative.
1028
00:55:56,144 --> 00:55:58,647
It's the home of the LDS Church.
1029
00:55:58,647 --> 00:56:02,568
60-plus percent
had passed Amendment 3.
1030
00:56:02,568 --> 00:56:07,197
People were very unhappy
with us. I mean pissed.
1031
00:56:07,197 --> 00:56:10,867
A case from Utah
was not on anybody's agenda.
1032
00:56:10,867 --> 00:56:14,871
It's not because,
"Oh, you can't have glory.
1033
00:56:14,871 --> 00:56:17,708
It needs to be done our way.
We need the glory."
1034
00:56:17,708 --> 00:56:19,876
A lot of these large
national organizations
1035
00:56:19,876 --> 00:56:22,087
were what I called
professional homosexuals.
1036
00:56:22,087 --> 00:56:26,341
People who make six-digit
incomes on exploiting being gay.
1037
00:56:26,341 --> 00:56:29,219
They all had these roadmaps
all lined up.
1038
00:56:29,219 --> 00:56:31,221
They were gonna win
marriage equality
1039
00:56:31,221 --> 00:56:34,016
because they have to justify
their six-digit incomes
1040
00:56:34,016 --> 00:56:35,225
to their donors.
1041
00:56:35,225 --> 00:56:36,810
KATE: When you go
full-steam ahead
1042
00:56:36,810 --> 00:56:38,687
with the righteousness
of your convictions,
1043
00:56:38,687 --> 00:56:40,397
and you think
you've got it nailed,
1044
00:56:40,397 --> 00:56:42,441
and you think you know
exactly what you're doing,
1045
00:56:42,441 --> 00:56:44,192
and then you lose.
1046
00:56:44,192 --> 00:56:45,861
In the cases
we're involved in,
1047
00:56:45,861 --> 00:56:48,155
you don't just lose
for your client,
1048
00:56:48,155 --> 00:56:51,199
you lose for
the whole effing community.
1049
00:56:52,909 --> 00:56:57,080
I uniformly got shut down
by every one of the experts
1050
00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:59,708
telling me that they
were not willing to help me
1051
00:56:59,708 --> 00:57:02,794
because I was not affiliated
with a national organization.
1052
00:57:02,794 --> 00:57:06,131
So they just refused to help us,
1053
00:57:06,131 --> 00:57:09,217
and Mark was angry.
1054
00:57:09,217 --> 00:57:12,679
He's not a person
who wanted to be
1055
00:57:12,679 --> 00:57:15,682
part of an organization
telling him what to do.
1056
00:57:15,682 --> 00:57:17,225
But at the end of the day,
1057
00:57:17,225 --> 00:57:20,604
all of the organizations
were all on the same team,
1058
00:57:20,604 --> 00:57:22,439
and you need to learn
to play together
1059
00:57:22,439 --> 00:57:27,194
and use each other's strengths
to get what y'all need.
1060
00:57:27,194 --> 00:57:30,030
KATE: Peggy then reached out
to NCLR and said,
1061
00:57:30,030 --> 00:57:33,367
"I know NCLR understands
these issues."
1062
00:57:33,367 --> 00:57:37,829
And so we started helping out
and then came informally.
1063
00:57:43,710 --> 00:57:45,587
A couple of days later,
I got a phone call
1064
00:57:45,587 --> 00:57:49,174
from an investor who had just
sent us a check for $1,000.
1065
00:57:49,174 --> 00:57:52,302
He says, "Well, you better
send me my check back."
1066
00:57:52,302 --> 00:57:54,471
I said, "What?
What are you talking about?"
1067
00:57:54,471 --> 00:57:56,932
He said, "You guys have
been going on and on
1068
00:57:56,932 --> 00:57:58,725
about this grassroots
organization,
1069
00:57:58,725 --> 00:58:00,519
this little law firm,
1070
00:58:00,519 --> 00:58:03,188
and you've turned it over
to a national organization."
1071
00:58:03,188 --> 00:58:07,734
I went onto the NCLR website,
and there is Derek and Moudi.
1072
00:58:07,734 --> 00:58:11,863
"See our plaintiffs,
our new case in Utah."
1073
00:58:11,863 --> 00:58:15,158
We were told that they would be
representing the plaintiffs.
1074
00:58:15,158 --> 00:58:16,910
That started making me angry
1075
00:58:16,910 --> 00:58:19,746
because as far as I'm concerned,
they have no right.
1076
00:58:19,746 --> 00:58:23,875
They have no justification
coming here, telling us anything
1077
00:58:23,875 --> 00:58:25,210
because none of these
organizations
1078
00:58:25,210 --> 00:58:27,295
have done anything for us.
1079
00:58:27,295 --> 00:58:30,924
All of a sudden, we were not
included in meetings anymore.
1080
00:58:30,924 --> 00:58:34,594
We were not included
in any communications anymore.
1081
00:58:34,594 --> 00:58:36,596
We had a really
good thing going.
1082
00:58:36,596 --> 00:58:40,600
That good thing was driven apart
by a national organization.
1083
00:58:42,352 --> 00:58:44,896
And then things
started getting even worse.
1084
00:58:44,896 --> 00:58:47,858
It finally got to the point
where it was, "All right, Mark,
1085
00:58:47,858 --> 00:58:50,235
shut the fuck up
and get under the bus."
1086
00:58:50,235 --> 00:58:51,987
It was incredibly disappointing.
1087
00:58:51,987 --> 00:58:54,114
It's like being at the highest
point in your whole life
1088
00:58:54,114 --> 00:58:56,241
and then being at the lowest
point in your whole life.
1089
00:58:56,241 --> 00:58:57,743
It's like crashing.
1090
00:58:59,494 --> 00:59:04,374
Our primary purpose in this
case was to raise the money.
1091
00:59:04,374 --> 00:59:05,959
I've never done
fundraising before.
1092
00:59:05,959 --> 00:59:08,879
I just thought
it was gonna be easy.
1093
00:59:08,879 --> 00:59:11,757
And that turned out to be...
big disaster.
1094
00:59:11,757 --> 00:59:13,133
Did not happen.
1095
00:59:13,133 --> 00:59:15,302
I'm not a professional
homosexual.
1096
00:59:15,302 --> 00:59:18,972
I'm an amateur homosexual.
[laughs]
1097
00:59:18,972 --> 00:59:20,724
KATE: You work, and you sweat,
1098
00:59:20,724 --> 00:59:24,144
and we kept thinking
it'll take off any minute now.
1099
00:59:24,144 --> 00:59:27,814
Then we would have a fundraiser
with 10 or 20 people at it.
1100
00:59:29,316 --> 00:59:31,860
MARK: People don't like
giving money to lawyers.
1101
00:59:31,860 --> 00:59:33,737
And that's always
gonna be that way.
1102
00:59:33,737 --> 00:59:36,531
People were appalled
that they were charging us
1103
00:59:36,531 --> 00:59:38,658
and not doing this pro bono.
1104
00:59:38,658 --> 00:59:41,495
One of the things that's been
said is that we were greedy,
1105
00:59:41,495 --> 00:59:43,747
that we wanted to make money
off of this case.
1106
00:59:43,747 --> 00:59:46,208
I will admit that
we wanted to be paid,
1107
00:59:46,208 --> 00:59:47,959
and that was
a fundamental premise
1108
00:59:47,959 --> 00:59:50,253
of what Mark Lawrence told us
when he came in the door.
1109
00:59:50,253 --> 00:59:53,840
At the end of the day,
I think we are about $900,000
1110
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:55,634
in unpaid attorney fees.
1111
00:59:55,634 --> 00:59:59,596
MARK: One other thing that
really became an issue for us
1112
00:59:59,596 --> 01:00:02,307
was that they were lying about
how much money we had paid.
1113
01:00:02,307 --> 01:00:05,852
There were even rumors that we
were financially disreputable.
1114
01:00:05,852 --> 01:00:08,313
I think one of the other
plaintiffs said
1115
01:00:08,313 --> 01:00:10,857
she had heard
we had raised $200,000
1116
01:00:10,857 --> 01:00:13,860
and only 5,000 of it
had gone to lawyers.
1117
01:00:13,860 --> 01:00:15,570
I thought, "Oh, my goodness."
1118
01:00:15,570 --> 01:00:18,865
We'd be lucky if we donated
5,000 to the lawyers.
1119
01:00:18,865 --> 01:00:21,451
What about 200,000? Wow!
1120
01:00:21,451 --> 01:00:24,287
There was no way we had ever
raised that much.
1121
01:00:25,831 --> 01:00:28,583
ANCHORWOMAN: A call for civility
on social media
1122
01:00:28,583 --> 01:00:31,878
from the man at the heart of
Utah's same-sex marriage case.
1123
01:00:31,878 --> 01:00:35,131
That call came appropriately
enough on Facebook.
1124
01:00:35,131 --> 01:00:37,217
The author of the post
is one of the plaintiffs
1125
01:00:37,217 --> 01:00:39,594
directly involved in
same-sex marriage case.
1126
01:00:39,594 --> 01:00:44,140
I think it's important for us
as a community to be respectful.
1127
01:00:44,140 --> 01:00:45,809
So when you direct
a negative comment
1128
01:00:45,809 --> 01:00:47,519
towards Governor Herbert,
1129
01:00:47,519 --> 01:00:50,689
saying look at us,
we're a family,
1130
01:00:50,689 --> 01:00:53,817
we are normal
just like everybody else,
1131
01:00:53,817 --> 01:00:55,735
and then some bad words,
1132
01:00:55,735 --> 01:00:58,864
that's going to nullify
the message
1133
01:00:58,864 --> 01:01:01,575
that you're trying
to send to him.
1134
01:01:04,327 --> 01:01:06,955
Governor Herbert
you are pandering
1135
01:01:06,955 --> 01:01:11,209
to a small group
of radical fanatics.
1136
01:01:11,209 --> 01:01:14,796
[cheering]
1137
01:01:16,131 --> 01:01:18,884
You are harming our families.
1138
01:01:18,884 --> 01:01:22,846
You are harming the families
who don't meet your tiny,
1139
01:01:22,846 --> 01:01:26,808
narrow, naive definition
of what a family is.
1140
01:01:26,808 --> 01:01:29,019
Well, guess what, Gary.
1141
01:01:29,019 --> 01:01:31,313
There's a lot more of us.
1142
01:01:31,313 --> 01:01:33,648
[cheering]
1143
01:01:33,648 --> 01:01:36,109
And the hell with
political correctness.
1144
01:01:39,029 --> 01:01:41,031
MARK: We started getting
a lot of criticism
1145
01:01:41,031 --> 01:01:43,909
about what we were doing,
and that became an issue.
1146
01:01:43,909 --> 01:01:46,953
The plaintiffs started
becoming very volatile.
1147
01:01:46,953 --> 01:01:48,997
They were like little vials
of nitroglycerin.
1148
01:01:48,997 --> 01:01:50,874
They had to be handled
very carefully.
1149
01:01:52,584 --> 01:01:56,004
And things continued
to break down.
1150
01:01:56,004 --> 01:01:59,674
We were called into a meeting
at one of the plaintiff's house.
1151
01:01:59,674 --> 01:02:02,719
We sat with all the plaintiffs
and the legal team,
1152
01:02:02,719 --> 01:02:05,096
and they proceeded to attack us.
1153
01:02:07,974 --> 01:02:10,143
Mark is irrational.
1154
01:02:10,143 --> 01:02:12,604
He's gonna have
a burst of flames,
1155
01:02:12,604 --> 01:02:14,689
but it's gonna die out
very quickly.
1156
01:02:14,689 --> 01:02:17,525
We are used to Moudi's
little fucking shit-fits
1157
01:02:17,525 --> 01:02:18,944
and temper tantrums.
1158
01:02:18,944 --> 01:02:20,362
Every time he does this,
1159
01:02:20,362 --> 01:02:23,490
everybody bends him over
and kisses his ass.
1160
01:02:23,490 --> 01:02:25,033
It's like,
"Oh, God, Moudi's mad.
1161
01:02:25,033 --> 01:02:26,785
Oh, no, everybody drop
what you're doing.
1162
01:02:26,785 --> 01:02:28,411
Moudi's pissed."
1163
01:02:28,411 --> 01:02:31,706
Mark has definitely laid
the foundation for all of us,
1164
01:02:31,706 --> 01:02:33,833
and we need to be
very appreciative.
1165
01:02:33,833 --> 01:02:35,377
KODY: You know what?
1166
01:02:35,377 --> 01:02:38,213
He had a vision,
and I wanna grant him that.
1167
01:02:38,213 --> 01:02:42,217
But he cannot go on
embarrassing us.
1168
01:02:42,217 --> 01:02:44,886
But a lot of it
is just miscommunication.
1169
01:02:44,886 --> 01:02:47,347
MARK: No, it's not.
That's not miscommunication.
1170
01:02:47,347 --> 01:02:49,641
Moudi is spouting his shit
because he's frustrated.
1171
01:02:49,641 --> 01:02:51,977
He did not like the way
I speak in my public speaking.
1172
01:02:51,977 --> 01:02:54,896
That is a weakness for me,
and it's something-- I hate it.
1173
01:02:54,896 --> 01:02:57,065
I fucking hate public speaking.
1174
01:02:57,065 --> 01:02:58,483
I think that's
the problem with Mark.
1175
01:02:58,483 --> 01:03:01,111
He takes an
all-or-nothing approach.
1176
01:03:01,111 --> 01:03:03,697
I feel like I'm being attacked.
1177
01:03:10,745 --> 01:03:13,623
PEGGY: He had
the warrior mentality,
1178
01:03:13,623 --> 01:03:16,418
and it wasn't the right time.
1179
01:03:18,837 --> 01:03:20,922
Mark harbored
pretty hard feelings
1180
01:03:20,922 --> 01:03:23,883
about how he'd been treated.
1181
01:03:25,677 --> 01:03:28,763
But from our perspective,
we really needed to make sure
1182
01:03:28,763 --> 01:03:32,851
we weren't doing any kind of
damage that could hurt the case.
1183
01:03:34,894 --> 01:03:38,898
So I think that's really
where we began to part ways.
1184
01:03:41,568 --> 01:03:44,029
MARK: I called a lawyer...
1185
01:03:45,780 --> 01:03:47,782
and I said I want you
to dissolve our relationship
1186
01:03:47,782 --> 01:03:50,076
with Magleby & Greenwood.
1187
01:03:52,620 --> 01:03:55,457
We want nothing to do
with these people again.
1188
01:04:07,510 --> 01:04:09,804
REPORTER:
Utah will spend $300,000
1189
01:04:09,804 --> 01:04:12,557
to bring in a team
of three outside attorneys
1190
01:04:12,557 --> 01:04:14,517
to help defend the state's
same-sex marriage ban
1191
01:04:14,517 --> 01:04:16,352
before a federal appeals court.
1192
01:04:16,352 --> 01:04:19,606
The Utah Attorney General's
office announced a few hours ago
1193
01:04:19,606 --> 01:04:22,400
that it has chosen Gene Scheer
to lead the team.
1194
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:24,360
Attorney General Sean Reyes
says Scheer
1195
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:27,906
has handled dozens of cases
before federal appeals courts.
1196
01:04:27,906 --> 01:04:32,077
There really is a conflict
between same-sex marriage
1197
01:04:32,077 --> 01:04:34,079
or institutionalized
same-sex marriage
1198
01:04:34,079 --> 01:04:35,538
and religious liberty.
1199
01:04:37,123 --> 01:04:40,585
JENNIFER: Utah hires Washington
DC attorney Gene Scheer
1200
01:04:40,585 --> 01:04:43,296
to help them defend
the same-sex marriage ban
1201
01:04:43,296 --> 01:04:46,132
in front of the Tenth Circuit
Court of Appeals in Denver.
1202
01:04:46,132 --> 01:04:49,219
Scheer is a Mormon,
and as he's leaving his firm,
1203
01:04:49,219 --> 01:04:51,137
he crafts this email
1204
01:04:51,137 --> 01:04:52,889
in which he's explaining
to his colleagues
1205
01:04:52,889 --> 01:04:55,141
his reason
for going to do this.
1206
01:04:55,141 --> 01:04:56,851
He feels a religious duty
1207
01:04:56,851 --> 01:04:59,687
to help defend
traditional marriage.
1208
01:05:01,439 --> 01:05:05,735
STEVE: Gene Scheer came into
the senate Republican caucus
1209
01:05:05,735 --> 01:05:10,073
and said that we were forbidden
to run any legislation
1210
01:05:10,073 --> 01:05:12,867
that might touch on
the LGBT community.
1211
01:05:12,867 --> 01:05:15,370
For the Utah legislature
to shut its doors,
1212
01:05:15,370 --> 01:05:16,913
we're better than that.
1213
01:05:16,913 --> 01:05:18,665
We take on the tough issues.
1214
01:05:18,665 --> 01:05:20,667
Remember, he was working
for the state
1215
01:05:20,667 --> 01:05:24,712
and talking about working
for a conservative think tank.
1216
01:05:24,712 --> 01:05:26,631
So I think it was
a very cheap move,
1217
01:05:26,631 --> 01:05:28,842
and that's what I said
in that caucus.
1218
01:05:28,842 --> 01:05:30,635
I didn't feel he was
representing the state.
1219
01:05:30,635 --> 01:05:35,682
I felt like he was representing
this conservative think tank.
1220
01:05:37,892 --> 01:05:39,561
MISSY: There was such a desire
1221
01:05:39,561 --> 01:05:44,065
for people to understand
the diversity of gay rights,
1222
01:05:44,065 --> 01:05:46,943
yet it didn't seem
to flow both ways.
1223
01:05:48,528 --> 01:05:51,739
Any community has a strong
majority of something.
1224
01:05:53,366 --> 01:05:56,786
Now, there a lot of people
who follow the LDS faith
1225
01:05:56,786 --> 01:05:58,079
in the legislature,
1226
01:05:58,079 --> 01:05:59,497
and Attorney General Reyes
1227
01:05:59,497 --> 01:06:02,000
happened to be
a Mormon bishop years ago.
1228
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:04,752
But I did not see
the LDS Church ever coming in
1229
01:06:04,752 --> 01:06:06,921
and lobbying us during the case.
1230
01:06:06,921 --> 01:06:08,715
I'll just throw that out there.
They didn't.
1231
01:06:08,715 --> 01:06:10,758
There's no doubt.
I mean, absolutely.
1232
01:06:10,758 --> 01:06:13,052
Anything that happened
on the same-sex marriage issue,
1233
01:06:13,052 --> 01:06:15,513
the Church was controlling.
1234
01:06:15,513 --> 01:06:19,809
Remember, I've dealt with
the Church on LGBT issues.
1235
01:06:19,809 --> 01:06:23,563
Whether it's a whisper
and a nod here and there,
1236
01:06:23,563 --> 01:06:26,858
the Church completely was
in favor of what was going on.
1237
01:06:26,858 --> 01:06:28,693
Otherwise, it wouldn't
have been happening.
1238
01:06:28,693 --> 01:06:30,195
A system is in place.
1239
01:06:30,195 --> 01:06:31,988
It's a good thing
a system is in place,
1240
01:06:31,988 --> 01:06:34,616
and we'll continue
to do our jobs.
1241
01:07:01,935 --> 01:07:07,732
We have finally had
an opportunity to put in writing
1242
01:07:07,732 --> 01:07:13,738
why the state's opening brief
wholly lacks merit.
1243
01:07:13,738 --> 01:07:16,783
I think the thing
that is disturbing to me
1244
01:07:16,783 --> 01:07:20,370
is this whole
child-centric argument
1245
01:07:20,370 --> 01:07:23,873
when they're now intervening
in all of these adoptions.
1246
01:07:23,873 --> 01:07:25,708
If they cared about the kids,
1247
01:07:25,708 --> 01:07:28,461
they would care about
providing as much security,
1248
01:07:28,461 --> 01:07:32,674
stability and support
as they can.
1249
01:07:32,674 --> 01:07:35,468
I just wanna know
it's really gone,
1250
01:07:35,468 --> 01:07:38,221
and it's in
someone else's hands,
1251
01:07:38,221 --> 01:07:40,223
and that they're
gonna be reading it
1252
01:07:40,223 --> 01:07:44,310
after reading the state's brief,
and they're gonna go, "Yeah!"
1253
01:07:46,020 --> 01:07:48,189
That's what we were thinking!
1254
01:07:48,189 --> 01:07:50,233
And they said it better.
1255
01:07:54,237 --> 01:07:58,783
If you read the state's brief,
it is really an emotional plea
1256
01:07:58,783 --> 01:08:02,078
based on arguments
that are not real
1257
01:08:02,078 --> 01:08:04,372
or supported by social science
1258
01:08:04,372 --> 01:08:07,750
and ignore
constitutional tenets.
1259
01:08:11,754 --> 01:08:17,010
The Constitution is intended
to avoid having any majority
1260
01:08:17,010 --> 01:08:21,180
impose its personal,
biased viewpoint
1261
01:08:21,180 --> 01:08:24,100
on the rest of the citizens.
1262
01:08:32,233 --> 01:08:36,654
I think we're just gonna have
to file the one they sent us.
1263
01:08:36,654 --> 01:08:39,699
We don't have enough time.
Hey, and this is perfect.
1264
01:08:39,699 --> 01:08:40,825
We're good.
1265
01:08:40,825 --> 01:08:43,578
Sorry, buddy, go to bed.
1266
01:08:43,578 --> 01:08:46,080
We are so excited about this.
1267
01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:49,208
The brief is awesome,
awesome, awesome.
1268
01:08:49,208 --> 01:08:51,127
We're almost there!
1269
01:08:51,127 --> 01:08:53,504
As long as we get it
filed before midnight,
1270
01:08:53,504 --> 01:08:54,756
that's what matters.
1271
01:09:00,219 --> 01:09:02,096
Whoo!
1272
01:09:37,590 --> 01:09:39,467
REPORTER: Next week the Tenth
Circuit Court of Appeals
1273
01:09:39,467 --> 01:09:42,178
will hear Utah's case
against same-sex marriage.
1274
01:09:42,178 --> 01:09:44,180
Now this a ruling
that could impact
1275
01:09:44,180 --> 01:09:46,140
every single state
in this country.
1276
01:09:46,140 --> 01:09:48,351
It'll likely be
the first federal ruling
1277
01:09:48,351 --> 01:09:51,145
on the constitutionality
of same-sex marriage ever.
1278
01:09:52,563 --> 01:09:57,318
We are not going away.
This is our home!
1279
01:09:57,318 --> 01:09:59,946
Utah's exactly the right place.
1280
01:09:59,946 --> 01:10:02,073
We have always experimented
1281
01:10:02,073 --> 01:10:04,992
with social and marital
relationships.
1282
01:10:04,992 --> 01:10:07,537
They're all history.
1283
01:10:07,537 --> 01:10:11,040
We are blessed
when we are persecuted
1284
01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:13,376
for the sake of righteousness.
1285
01:10:13,376 --> 01:10:17,964
Whatever any court decides
does not end this fight.
1286
01:10:17,964 --> 01:10:21,384
The court does not decide
the definition of marriage.
1287
01:10:21,384 --> 01:10:24,846
REPORTER: Now at least
84 people or groups
1288
01:10:24,846 --> 01:10:27,223
are finding themselves
as friends of the court.
1289
01:10:27,223 --> 01:10:30,393
Groups like the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints.
1290
01:10:30,393 --> 01:10:34,021
Just yesterday,
a group of 81 state lawmakers
1291
01:10:34,021 --> 01:10:37,400
filed saying, "We especially
feel a profound duty
1292
01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:39,861
to the children of the state."
1293
01:10:42,822 --> 01:10:44,907
PEGGY: The impact
of a bad ruling
1294
01:10:44,907 --> 01:10:47,910
will be felt for decades.
1295
01:11:09,599 --> 01:11:11,684
- Okay, turn around.
- It's not choking me.
1296
01:11:11,684 --> 01:11:14,812
Okay, as long as it's not
a full choke, you're fine.
1297
01:11:24,447 --> 01:11:26,115
You look very handsome today.
1298
01:11:26,115 --> 01:11:28,117
Thanks. So do you.
1299
01:12:22,838 --> 01:12:24,924
JUDGE: We're here this morning
for one case.
1300
01:12:24,924 --> 01:12:27,885
13-4178 Kitchen v. Herbert.
1301
01:12:27,885 --> 01:12:30,263
Counsel, you may proceed.
1302
01:12:30,263 --> 01:12:31,931
GENE: Thank you, Your Honor,
and good morning.
1303
01:12:31,931 --> 01:12:35,142
I am Gene Scheer,
and I am honored to appear today
1304
01:12:35,142 --> 01:12:38,479
on behalf of the state of Utah
and its people.
1305
01:12:38,479 --> 01:12:40,356
The issue is really
one of authority.
1306
01:12:40,356 --> 01:12:43,025
That is, whether under
the federal Constitution,
1307
01:12:43,025 --> 01:12:46,862
the state's definitional
authority over marriage
1308
01:12:46,862 --> 01:12:49,532
allows them to retain
the traditional
1309
01:12:49,532 --> 01:12:51,534
man/woman definition
of marriage.
1310
01:12:51,534 --> 01:12:55,997
PEGGY: Your Honor, every state,
including the state of Utah,
1311
01:12:55,997 --> 01:12:58,583
is bound by the guarantees
1312
01:12:58,583 --> 01:13:02,253
and protections
of the 14th Amendment
1313
01:13:02,253 --> 01:13:06,924
for every single citizen
in its state.
1314
01:13:06,924 --> 01:13:12,722
Amendment 3, and the other
marriage discrimination laws...
1315
01:13:12,722 --> 01:13:14,849
...was to exclude
same-sex couples
1316
01:13:14,849 --> 01:13:17,059
from marriage recognition.
1317
01:13:21,314 --> 01:13:24,108
GENE: The man/woman marriage
conveys the message
1318
01:13:24,108 --> 01:13:27,028
that a mom and dad
are important, okay?
1319
01:13:27,028 --> 01:13:28,905
And when you redefine marriage,
1320
01:13:28,905 --> 01:13:31,490
you dilute that message
in the law.
1321
01:13:31,490 --> 01:13:33,618
Your Honor,
one large national study
1322
01:13:33,618 --> 01:13:36,746
found that boys raised
outside of attached marriages
1323
01:13:36,746 --> 01:13:39,332
were two to three times
more likely
1324
01:13:39,332 --> 01:13:41,959
to commit a crime
leading to imprisonment.
1325
01:13:41,959 --> 01:13:46,130
PEGGY: There is no study
that, in fact, measures
1326
01:13:46,130 --> 01:13:49,717
that same-sex parenting
is not as good
1327
01:13:49,717 --> 01:13:52,386
as what they call
a man/woman marriage.
1328
01:13:52,386 --> 01:13:54,138
GENE: We want to be clear.
1329
01:13:54,138 --> 01:13:56,557
This historical practice is
the one that Utah supports.
1330
01:13:56,557 --> 01:13:58,100
Period.
1331
01:13:58,100 --> 01:14:01,062
PEGGY: Your Honor,
the Supreme Court has expressed
1332
01:14:01,062 --> 01:14:05,733
that an individual's
constitutional rights
1333
01:14:05,733 --> 01:14:10,696
are not subject to public vote
or legislative action.
1334
01:14:10,696 --> 01:14:13,991
These laws are not
the type of laws
1335
01:14:13,991 --> 01:14:17,119
that our Constitution
will permit
1336
01:14:17,119 --> 01:14:20,289
because, as the court
has said before,
1337
01:14:20,289 --> 01:14:26,003
the Constitution does not allow
classes between its citizens.
1338
01:14:27,213 --> 01:14:29,340
Thank you for your time.
1339
01:14:38,432 --> 01:14:42,228
[crowd cheering]
1340
01:14:48,442 --> 01:14:52,571
We look forward
to a swift decision
1341
01:14:52,571 --> 01:14:55,533
and have confidence
that these judges
1342
01:14:55,533 --> 01:14:59,870
will give this case the serious
consideration it deserves,
1343
01:14:59,870 --> 01:15:04,583
and we look forward to bringing
marriage equality to Utah
1344
01:15:04,583 --> 01:15:07,336
and the rest of
the Tenth Circuit.
1345
01:15:07,336 --> 01:15:10,756
[cheers and applause]
1346
01:15:13,926 --> 01:15:16,095
PEGGY: When Gene Scheer argued,
1347
01:15:16,095 --> 01:15:21,475
I was surprised that he was
less of a legal advocate
1348
01:15:21,475 --> 01:15:23,602
than I thought he would be
1349
01:15:23,602 --> 01:15:27,857
and more an advocate for his own
personal religious beliefs.
1350
01:15:29,400 --> 01:15:33,154
It was almost to the point
of being offensive,
1351
01:15:33,154 --> 01:15:37,700
how he was casting children
who grew up without fathers.
1352
01:15:37,700 --> 01:15:40,202
The fact that they were
more likely to be
1353
01:15:40,202 --> 01:15:43,914
sexual deviants
and drug addicts.
1354
01:15:46,500 --> 01:15:48,210
It made me realize
1355
01:15:48,210 --> 01:15:52,256
how much some of these positions
with the state was taking
1356
01:15:52,256 --> 01:15:54,633
were truly hurting children
1357
01:15:54,633 --> 01:15:57,470
when my son, who was there,
came up to me.
1358
01:15:57,470 --> 01:16:01,098
He said, "Do you realize
he's talking about me?"
1359
01:16:06,687 --> 01:16:08,689
Attorney General Sean Reyes
joins me now
1360
01:16:08,689 --> 01:16:10,149
to tell us a little bit more
1361
01:16:10,149 --> 01:16:12,193
about how you thought
the proceedings went
1362
01:16:12,193 --> 01:16:14,487
and the importance of this case
in the state of Utah.
1363
01:16:14,487 --> 01:16:17,490
Thanks, Rich. Both sides
acquitted themselves very well.
1364
01:16:17,490 --> 01:16:21,368
It was a very active panel.
Questions that...
1365
01:16:21,368 --> 01:16:23,245
KODY: As we walked
into the courtroom,
1366
01:16:23,245 --> 01:16:25,748
you could feel the gravity
of the moment.
1367
01:16:25,748 --> 01:16:27,333
We sat down on the bench,
1368
01:16:27,333 --> 01:16:30,044
and we were waiting
for our oral arguments to begin,
1369
01:16:30,044 --> 01:16:33,422
and Attorney General Reyes
came up and introduced himself.
1370
01:16:33,422 --> 01:16:37,301
Then he kneeled down and
said he wanted us to be happy,
1371
01:16:37,301 --> 01:16:38,844
and that he never
wanted to hurt us.
1372
01:16:38,844 --> 01:16:41,263
I did use the phrase
"It's not personal."
1373
01:16:41,263 --> 01:16:43,641
Obviously, it's very personal
to everybody.
1374
01:16:43,641 --> 01:16:45,726
But I was saying
that enforcement of the law
1375
01:16:45,726 --> 01:16:48,646
was not intended to single out
any particular family.
1376
01:16:48,646 --> 01:16:51,398
I've tried to put myself
in their shoes.
1377
01:16:51,398 --> 01:16:53,442
DEREK: Then I realized
he was blatantly lying
1378
01:16:53,442 --> 01:16:55,569
because if he did care about us
1379
01:16:55,569 --> 01:16:57,029
and he cared about
our happiness,
1380
01:16:57,029 --> 01:17:00,032
then he wouldn't be
in the courtroom
1381
01:17:00,032 --> 01:17:04,870
actively trying to prevent us
from marrying one another.
1382
01:17:04,870 --> 01:17:06,997
LAURIE: When he knelt down
and said,
1383
01:17:06,997 --> 01:17:08,999
"I hope you know
that this isn't personal,"
1384
01:17:08,999 --> 01:17:14,797
it brought tears to our eyes
because what else was it?
1385
01:17:14,797 --> 01:17:17,716
That's all it was,
was personal.
1386
01:17:17,716 --> 01:17:19,343
The position that we're taking
1387
01:17:19,343 --> 01:17:23,013
likely causes them pain
and heartache,
1388
01:17:23,013 --> 01:17:26,058
and I'm sorry for that.
1389
01:17:26,058 --> 01:17:29,436
I don't apologize
for what we're doing
1390
01:17:29,436 --> 01:17:32,648
in terms of representing
the laws of the state of Utah.
1391
01:17:32,648 --> 01:17:35,442
I remember him saying,
"I know you love your family
1392
01:17:35,442 --> 01:17:37,278
as much as I love mine."
1393
01:17:37,278 --> 01:17:39,321
I would like to focus
on the fact
1394
01:17:39,321 --> 01:17:42,616
that he recognized that
Laurie and I were a family.
1395
01:18:21,989 --> 01:18:23,991
REPORTER: Same-sex marriage
is once again
1396
01:18:23,991 --> 01:18:25,659
legal in the state of Utah.
1397
01:18:25,659 --> 01:18:27,411
REPORTER: That's because
of the ruling coming down
1398
01:18:27,411 --> 01:18:29,330
about an hour ago
on Amendment 3
1399
01:18:29,330 --> 01:18:31,290
from the Tenth Circuit
Court of Appeals.
1400
01:18:31,290 --> 01:18:33,918
REPORTER: The Attorney General
sent this letter
1401
01:18:33,918 --> 01:18:35,753
to all county clerks
in the state:
1402
01:18:35,753 --> 01:18:37,880
"Effective immediately,
all counties are advised
1403
01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:40,674
to conduct business today
and going forward,
1404
01:18:40,674 --> 01:18:44,261
recognizing all legally
performed same-sex marriages."
1405
01:18:50,059 --> 01:18:52,603
PEGGY: Shelby's ruling
parted the waters
1406
01:18:52,603 --> 01:18:57,358
and every other ruling was
following in Shelby's footsteps.
1407
01:18:57,358 --> 01:19:00,986
The reason Judge Shelby's
decision became the domino
1408
01:19:00,986 --> 01:19:04,907
is it was the first
federal court to declare
1409
01:19:04,907 --> 01:19:08,410
that a state could not
ban marriage equality.
1410
01:19:08,410 --> 01:19:11,747
STEVE: Utah to be the first
domino was unexpected.
1411
01:19:11,747 --> 01:19:14,792
That really shocked
the entire state.
1412
01:19:14,792 --> 01:19:18,003
At that point, we knew
the world had changed.
1413
01:19:18,003 --> 01:19:24,468
♪♪
1414
01:19:38,273 --> 01:19:39,900
PEGGY: When it really sank in
1415
01:19:39,900 --> 01:19:44,071
is when I got to do
my second parent adoption.
1416
01:19:47,032 --> 01:19:48,909
I was a mess.
1417
01:19:48,909 --> 01:19:50,995
I cried.
I couldn't get my voice
1418
01:19:50,995 --> 01:19:53,998
to quit wavering
all over place.
1419
01:20:00,504 --> 01:20:05,217
When you love a child,
it's a very powerless position
1420
01:20:05,217 --> 01:20:08,429
not to be able to protect them
and tell them they're secure,
1421
01:20:08,429 --> 01:20:10,848
and they don't need to worry.
1422
01:20:10,848 --> 01:20:13,475
The judge asked him,
"What do you think about this?"
1423
01:20:13,475 --> 01:20:16,895
He goes, "I am so happy."
1424
01:20:16,895 --> 01:20:20,107
He said, "I love Peggy so much."
1425
01:20:23,652 --> 01:20:25,738
"Do you want her
to be your mom?"
1426
01:20:25,738 --> 01:20:28,824
"Especially I want her
to be my mom."
1427
01:20:42,838 --> 01:20:44,089
[Mark sighs]
1428
01:20:51,513 --> 01:20:54,933
Here is my life sitting in here,
getting all dirty and ruined.
1429
01:20:56,643 --> 01:21:00,147
I haven't had a positive amount
in my checking account
1430
01:21:00,147 --> 01:21:02,858
for probably nine months now.
1431
01:21:04,193 --> 01:21:06,195
Christ, I'm 57 years old,
1432
01:21:06,195 --> 01:21:07,863
and I don't have
my own home yet.
1433
01:21:07,863 --> 01:21:11,075
That really, really
makes me feel shitty.
1434
01:21:12,910 --> 01:21:17,289
That has a lot to do with why I
got involved in this damn case.
1435
01:21:17,289 --> 01:21:19,666
It's been a good distraction.
[chuckles]
1436
01:21:23,962 --> 01:21:28,342
When you look at these stories
of how sweet everything was?
1437
01:21:28,342 --> 01:21:31,512
Bullshit.
1438
01:21:31,512 --> 01:21:34,515
We were almost, at one point,
like a little family.
1439
01:21:34,515 --> 01:21:36,850
And now we're enemies.
1440
01:21:40,270 --> 01:21:43,732
Somebody asked me,
"Would you do it over again?"
1441
01:21:45,442 --> 01:21:47,569
I don't think I would.
1442
01:21:57,746 --> 01:22:03,043
♪♪
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