Original subtitles

Tim Waters had put two and two together and knew what David Sconce was doing.

He knew that on a crematorium side,

he was doing something that was either illegal or immoral.

The rumors were that Tim Waters

had gone out to eat with David right before he died.

People were saying that David had had him killed.

After Tim Waters had died,

without an obstruction to his success,

David Sconce, he felt like he could do anything.

David had grand plans.

He had designs on, you know, the entire West.

And he went out and he solicited a lot more business.

The shelves would be full. The freezer would be full.

And I could never catch up. Never.

And in return, if he needed me to do something, I did it.

Except I wasn't gonna beat nobody up,

I wasn't gonna kill anybody, and I wasn't gonna do

anything illegal other than what we were doing.

"There's nothing gonna happen," and everything happened.

That Murphy's Law thing, you know?

If it can go wrong, it's gonna go wrong. And it really went wrong.

One night, I was a runner at the crematorium.

I forget who called me.

I think Johnny was the one who called me, I think.

Yeah, "Whoa, what do you mean, it burned down?"

I found out these guys smoked their dope, and they left!

It's just...

There's no words. There's no words.

You know, after the fire, David's business didn't shut down.

He was still picking up cases,

and yet everybody knew

that his facility had burnt down.

After the fire happened at the crematory,

I didn't stop.

But nobody could figure out where I was cremating my bodies.

In 1986, I was working as the Air Quality Engineer

for the San Bernardino County Air Pollution Control Agency.

My job was to protect the environment for the health and welfare of the citizens

that live in the area.

We had received complaints from the citizenry

in the high desert in the Hesperia area about a facility.

The name was Oscar Ceramics.

The owner was David Sconce.

They claimed they were making ceramic tiles

for NASA and the space industry.

We had a business owner in the area complaining about smell,

smoke coming out of the building,

and even sometimes flames leaping out of the stack.

He was very adamant

that he smelled burning bodies, burning flesh.

He was in one of the military units

that had liberated one of the concentration camps,

I believe it was Auschwitz itself.

And so, he knew this odor to him

was the same odor that he had smelled then.

We just knew there's something going on.

And all the things that followed with it

were stuff that were gonna get us in trouble.

It's starting to get like, what are we doing?

We're going way, way, way, way, way overboard.

I mean, it's not like I'm gonna stop doing it.

I've already been doing it. But it was like a lot.

My name is David Dicus, I was a sergeant

with the San Bernardino Sheriff's Department.

I was assigned to run the detective bureau.

We had a couple of our patrolmen called out to the scene.

There was a ceramics factory in Hesperia called Oscar Ceramics.

There was smoke coming underneath the doors.

One of the patrolmen called us up and said,

"This case seems like it's got legs."

We rolled out to the scene.

When we first arrived, nobody would come out.

Then, once we had a pretty good presence between law enforcement and the fire,

he ultimately did come out, a Hispanic gentleman.

And,

finally, the San Bernardino County Sheriff came.

That's when they got to come in.

Otherwise, I was stalling these guys as long as I could.

The operator in there, he was working in a Camaro.

He did not sit in the building. I asked him why.

He said, "It's too smoky in there to work."

He actually had a small TV and the phone line

into his car sitting out by the door of the building.

Johnny claimed to us he did not know what was going on in the kilns.

He said somebody else loaded the kilns.

When they're loaded, he gets a call to come up

and fire the kilns off.

He was very nervous, he did call Mr. Sconce,

supposably, and talked with him.

And I think...

I think at that point, David must have known that the gig was up.

He says, "I don't know, but hide the stuff."

I go, "David, we can't... We can't hide any more things.

It's too late. We're in trouble now."

So, I hung up with him, I went outside, got the key,

opened the door. They came in.

One we got inside,

instantaneous, you can tell there's something wrong,

from the smell of it all.

When you first walk in, there's soot all over the walls.

The soot's so oily,

it's sticking to your shoes.

If you touch anything, it would get on your clothing.

And we're all wearing suits, so we tried to be as careful as possible.

There were barrels of prosthesis around,

because prosthesis don't burn.

It really kinda took you back.

I go, "I'm not opening that oven, you can't make me.

"You open it. You wanna see what's in there?

Open it."

...they stopped it from being cremated.

So, it's just like a bunch of bodies still in there.

So, I went outside, you know. I didn't want to see all that.

We took the opportunity to open one of the kilns to see what was inside,

and there were multiple bones from the whole process,

even some flesh that had not been totally burned yet.

Upon opening the kilns, we saw burning material falling out.

I did see what looked like a human skull in there.

In front of the kilns,

they had cut trenches about four inches wide

that ran out into the back of the facility,

primarily to capture the human fat that was burning off of all these bodies.

This is beyond anything I could really comprehend in my own mind.

It's a surreal situation. Do you really believe

what you're seeing, even though you're seeing it?

You kinda wonder what type of people were doing this type of operation.

I don't know, it was probably close to 200.

Right around in there, 150, 200 when they...

when they came and shut the ovens down.

At a time.

Yeah.

Because of the fire in Pasadena,

I used Hesperia before it was really ready.

And that was a bad choice. I made that choice.

I'm the only one to blame for that.

Yeah, I could say, well, I wanted to keep all my people employed.

So, I needed to not interrupt anything that was working towards the ultimate end.

But it doesn't justify what I did, see?

I should have been more selfish and shut everything down,

and done it right.

But I was in a hurry.

Permits. Conditional use permits.

Sure, that was still gonna go on. That was still gonna go on.

I was working late at the office,

and a story came over the wire from the San Bernardino Sun.

It was a very short story.

The guy they said was responsible was David Sconce of Pasadena.

I thought, okay, he's local.

And I just got out the phone book. This is all pre-computers.

And I started calling people named Sconce, and there were a number of them.

I asked questions about this illegal crematorium.

About the fourth one, the guy picked up the phone

and he just started screaming and yelling,

you know, "Fuck you! Who the fuck are you?"

And I thought, "Okay, this is him," you know, "I got him."

I found out he owned Pasadena Crematorium.

And I called the number in the phone book,

and they answered the phone, "Lamb Funeral Home."

They had the same telephone number.

I knew the Lambs were the Lambs.

They were prominent people, I knew who they were.

So, I went to one of the editors,

and I said, "Something is happening here,

and it could be pretty wild."

So, we did a story the following day,

which I wrote, and it said, "Here he is, David Sconce,

and he's, you know, affiliated with the Lamb Funeral Home."

I started to get phone calls.

People were very supportive of the Lambs and were, you know, outraged

that we would be disparaging them in any way.

You know, "You should be ashamed of yourself.

You shouldn't be writing about this."

At that point in time, I really did not know

what crimes had been violated,

other than maybe the pollution end of it, environmental health.

But from a criminal standpoint, we really didn't know what we had.

We did serve the search warrant in Pasadena

at the Lamb Funeral Home.

That was our first search warrant.

And I had an opportunity to walk around the place,

had an opportunity to meet Laurieanne.

The sweetest lady you ever want to talk to.

I asked her lots of questions about the operation,

and she was more than willing to talk.

She had no concept of what was going on.

I saw the business office, and there were photographs on the walls.

Embalming photographs.

We started collecting evidence.

Then, we went back into their cold storage.

We saw hundreds of bodies

wrapped up in cardboard.

There were body parts. It was ghastly.

And I'm thinking, these people are lawfully dead.

What do we really have here?

Was there more criminal activity going on?

And who else was involved?

Our second search warrant was on Lamb Senior's home.

Just like approaching his house, it's a big, beautiful house.

Beautiful furnishings, very cooperative people.

These people had to have resources, had to have some influence.

I got the impression that Lamb Senior was a stand-up guy.

He was a part of that community forever.

He probably did cremations one at a time,

and somehow, the family members went awry.

Lamb, the elder, he was a decent man.

Straight as an arrow, everything by the book.

In this business, you don't mass cremate.

It's illegal, it's a state law, and it's inhuman.

And anti-everything I believe in

is not to treat a loved one of a family with dignity and respect.

So, we don't mass cremate. We can't.

All of a sudden, Dave Sconce's case blew up wide open.

Other mortuaries start reading it.

Supposedly, Lamb told his daughter, actually,

"Your son will ruin my name."

When the first search of the premises took place,

I got thrown in the backseat of a Pasadena police car,

and they're all running around the mortuary

looking for stuff, and they left empty-handed,

and we don't know what they were looking for.

He was in the back of the car.

He was, you know, very aware that he was performing.

He could be scary, he could be charming.

And in that particular instance, you know, as I'm saying...

waving goodbye to him,

he made this crazed face.

Like Charles Manson, you know?

Looked like a homicidal maniac.

My boss said, "Oh, we can't use that picture.

He looks horrible." And I said, "He is horrible."

Come on. This is him. This is what he did.

We didn't ask him to do anything.

This is, you know, one of his expressions, and he looks nuts.

San Bernardino County investigators

returned to the ceramics building last night

with shovels and a search warrant.

But authorities would not say if they recovered

any more partially cremated bodies.

The Hesperia building was owned by the Sconce family.

Sconce and his father are accused

of environmental violations and grand theft.

They're accused of taking gold fillings from bodies that were cremated,

charges they say are absolutely ridiculous.

There were no improprieties with the operation either in Altadena

or the subsequent operation in Hesperia.

And we've been really, really misquoted, misunderstood, and...

and just crucified in the press for about a week.

Both were arrested last week and released on bail.

The investigation is nowhere complete at this time.

It's a very involved case, and will take a lot of time

to establish certain information.

One day, I was going to the grocery store,

and I picked up the LA Times,

and I read about the Lamb Funeral Home scandal.

I about fell down in the parking lot, I did not know.

And I was shocked.

I was devastated that they desecrated my father like this.

I can't think of the words to describe how I feel...

Daughter Darlynn says before he died of a heart attack two years ago,

Branton asked that his body be cremated,

the ashes distributed to members of his family.

But the Lamb crematory service allegedly cremated his body

with others in the same oven, commingling the ashes.

I have what I thought was my father's ashes here,

but apparently, they are not my father's ashes.

I had been working for the Sconces, say, maybe seven, eight months

as a truck driver, delivering, picking up human remains.

When I got to the mortuary and Johnny comes out and says,

"We got busted," I felt relieved.

Like, finally, you know, finally. You know, "We got busted, we got busted!"

And I said, "Good, that's awesome."

When I went to go get my stuff out of Hesperia

and move back home, got home at 2:00 in the morning.

They were waiting for me across the street.

Sheriff's investigators in San Bernardino County today

announced the arrest of another suspect

in connection with the operation

of an illegal crematorium in the desert town of Hesperia.

This person who was arrested yesterday is a John Daniel, Pollerana.

They arrested everybody that worked at the mortuary.

They arrested everybody who was down there because it was a shotgun effect.

Everybody they saw, they arrested, and then sorted it out later.

Got me too, you know.

They detained me for about three hours

and kept asking me the same questions over and over again.

And finally, I think to scare me,

they put me in general population for about an hour.

And it scared me.

And I told him, I said, "You tell me what you want me to tell you,

and I'll tell you, I want outta here."

I couldn't get David to talk, or Jerry Sconce, or Laurieanne.

But in the meantime,

my phone was just ringing off the hook with ex-employees who wanted to say,

"Hey, let me tell you about this place."

And they had some wild tales to tell.

They were talking about pulling the gold out of the teeth,

and David's attitude toward the bodies, almost gleefully doing deeds

that would really shock most people.

I really don't remember him being nice

about anything to anybody, especially a dead body.

He'd pick up a body like this, you know, like a book,

and he's walking around like that, you know.

He would talk to 'em, like, "What happened to you, huh?"

You know, slap 'em a little bit, or touch 'em on the belly.

How sick is that?

That's his sense of humor, very cold.

Most of David's employees

were glad to be able to talk about this stuff.

But they were scared because they said this guy had a long history

of hurting people.

At that point in time, all we had was the cremation of bodies.

Those would all have been, at best, maybe some misdemeanors,

maybe some environmental health issues.

Unless we had some felonies to work with

to drive the case on, we wouldn't have enough

to bring about some type of prosecution.

There was a task force that I recall being part of that included the police,

district attorney,

probably a representative from the cemetery board.

And they were very, very interested in my work

because of the audit that I had done at the Lamb Funeral Home.

My job was to audit pre-need trust accounts.

Pre-need's just going in and discussing

with the funeral director exactly what your needs are,

and paying for it prior to the demise.

The funeral director then is charged with safekeeping those monies.

And there are certain rules that go along with that.

Well, the prior year,

in 1986,

I'd just went out to the Lamb Funeral Home

to do a routine audit of their trust funds.

I just went in like I normally do.

Sport coat, tie, briefcase, state of California.

I recall Laurieanne Lamb sitting at the front desk.

That was the first time I ever saw her.

And as many years ago as it is, I can recall it like it was yesterday.

She kinda had poofy hair,

and there might have been a light shining behind her,

because honestly, in my lifetime,

that's the closest I've ever seen to an aura.

I mean, I just went, "Oh, my God."

She was just different.

She was just the most perfect person to do what she did,

and her manner was just so...

it wasn't maudlin, it was just, "All I wanna do

is just take care of families. I just wanna counsel 'em."

That was her reason for being,

was to just serve families in their time of grief.

She just glowed.

Pretty amazing. I'll never forget that.

But it turned out that there was a problem.

Laurieanne had all of these pre-need accounts

that she's taken money for that weren't reported.

I think about 170 accounts. That alone...

that's a violation.

She's, "Oh my goodness. Please tell me what I'm supposed to do."

She's very upset that they had done something wrong,

and wanted to do everything to make it right.

I said, "You need to get that money into an account,

and you've gotta start reporting them to the board."

"No problem. And I'm not gonna take any more money.

"I'm gonna set 'em up in passbook accounts.

We're just trying to run this business the best we can."

Okay.

And you know, I mean, I had no reason not to believe her.

Well, she never did any of that.

And by the time I was meeting with this task force,

we knew that Laurieanne had raked about $100,000 worth of interest

off of those accounts.

That's grand theft.

Now, a district attorney could charge 'em with a felony.

Once we discovered the financial crimes,

we went back into the station and we discussed

what our next move is going to be.

And in our office, we had the photographs

from the funeral home, along with other evidence.

And we had two great deputy coroners.

They walked in, they looked at the photographs.

What I thought was embalming,

they looked at immediately, and guess what?

They said, "They're harvesting body parts."

They could look at those photographs, see the peeling of the skin back.

Tissues were being removed.

Harvesting body parts,

it brought new dynamics to our investigation.

I witnessed a few extractions of body parts.

It was common knowledge around there in the people that worked there

that they were harvesting organs to sell.

There was a room that had a bunch of tools and junk.

That's where he did the teeth extractions and the organ harvesting.

As soon as I'd bring the truck in,

they'd rush out there and check the bodies.

They would mark it "Whole" or "Donor."

David would show up and, "Okay, let's go to work."

He had a couple of guys there that they looked like doctors.

You know, taking the eyeballs out, and livers, and hearts, and stuff.

I could see what they were doing. The body was all cut up.

I was picking up a body at a mortuary, and there was this guy, George Bristol,

I didn't know who he was, but he was back there

and he was doing something,

like, he had surgical equipment on the table.

And I'm an embalmer, and I knew that wasn't stuff

I'd ever seen before.

Okay, there's a thing called a slit lamp

which actually mows the cornea off your eyeball

in a hygienic kind of a way that doesn't ruin it.

So, "Hey, what are you doing?" And I met him, and we started talking,

and he was working for UCLA Doheny Eye Bank.

And I said, "Well, dude, I get, like...

"probably 1,000 dead people a month

"through my facility, and if only 100 of 'em

are viable, that's a whole lot of corneas you can move."

So, George started doing some research with me, and I formed

the Coastal International Eye and Tissue Bank.

David set up an operation

on the grounds of the funeral home.

And he hired people

from established organ-donation businesses,

and established ties with medical companies

all over the world.

We got the account back east

at Carolina Biological, which I thought was great.

It was a pretty good-sized deal.

Hundred for a heart, hundred for a brain, hundred for a set of lungs, and all that.

Now, you can't sell human tissue,

but you can bill people for your time in making it available, 'kay?

That's how you get around it.

And, I mean, if you think about it, why wouldn't you do it?

It doesn't make any sense to me to waste stuff when it can help other people.

They would take skin from people for burn victims.

Eyes... not just corneas, but whole eyes,

hearts, lungs, brains, bones.

They got $55 to cremate this corpse,

and now it's worth all kinds of money.

Like car parts, you know, like you strip a car down and sell it.

Every body, you know, was all its own little goldmine.

My relationship with my dad when I was very young,

it was mixed, frankly.

I think he had a lot of PTSD.

He was born in Germany.

He was an adolescent the beginning of World War II.

He had a horrible life.

He was very rigid. He drank a lot.

But he did love us really fiercely.

He really did, and you know, the older he got, the more he softened.

I just saw such a huge change in him when I got married.

And when I became pregnant, he was really excited about that.

He would have been a fantastic grandfather.

On September 20th, 1986, he had a stroke and he died.

The Lamb family mortuary handled the cremation.

We took a truck out to the desert,

my mom, and my husband, and my sister, and...

because that was his heart and soul, out in the desert.

We said, you know, all these nice things and spread these ashes.

And then, when we find out

they just scooped up whoever, whatever, and that's what we left in the desert.

And just, that was just so sad.

I believe it was a few months later, we were told what they had taken from him.

It was just so... again, you know,

astonishing that this keeps getting worse, you know, that they took his brains,

his eyes, you know.

We were all in shock, in absolute shock.

My dad was floating around in hospitals everywhere,

being picked at and studied, and you know,

he didn't agree to that, we didn't agree to that.

I talked to a lot of family members, and they were very rattled.

They were angry, they were upset.

I found out actually on the news.

It just, like somebody hit you over the head with a bat.

I never discussed anything

about donating organs or anything like that,

which I would have absolutely go against.

A lot of the families were bitter, especially toward Laurieanne.

She was the face of the funeral home.

She dealt with the bereaved.

She advised people, gave them the papers to sign.

Everyone was wondering if she knew what was going on.

I looked at her as my mom.

She was so sweet.

You know, she's willing to make you a cake, if you wanted it.

But, on the other hand, there was a very dark side on that woman.

Looks are deceiving, let me tell you.

I remember going to the family's house,

picking up their grandpa, and everybody is just crying.

And Laurieanne called me on the radio and said,

"Hon, if the body's still warm, open up his eyelids and see if his eyes

"are watery, or are they dry?

"And if they're dry, there's a bottle in the glove compartment.

Get that bottle and put a couple of drops in each eye, and then call me."

After that, it was every day.

"Is the body warm, honey? Is the body warm?"

She was very pious, churchy,

and people trusted her.

Apparently, she kept ashes in her office.

She had a chart all worked out.

How much ash to put in an urn, how much an adult male would be,

what an adult female would be, a baby.

There were babies involved in this thing.

Can you imagine?

The side hustle, the teeth and the gold,

Jerry, I'm sure, had been doing that from day one,

since he married into that family.

One day, I saw Jerry rooting around in this person's mouth.

He just reaches in and pulls a couple of gold teeth out.

Puts 'em in a Styrofoam cup, and he goes,

"That's how we can afford to pay you what we pay you."

Multiple cremations, gold, ash.

My parents did all of that before me, all of that.

-Well... -Yeah.

My mom's dad did that before it.

My grandfather, Lawrence Lamb, had a lot of money.

He was very business-oriented.

I have one thing I never forgot.

It was Christmas, and all the families were all together at the house

on Orange Grove, at my grandparents' home.

I'm a little kid, and I remember being positioned

with all the cousins, and all the family behind.

My grandfather's standing out there, and he had a camera, and he said,

"Smile. Say 'money.'"

He didn't say "cheese." He said, "Say 'money.'"

This was learned through generations.

So, if you wanna say,

"fruit of the poisonous tree," there you go.

As this criminal investigation into David Sconce continued,

the police found all this incremental stuff,

but it got, you know, progressively worse.

It came out that he had his guys

beat up these rival funeral home directors,

several of them.

And in particular, there was this Tim Waters guy,

who was savagely beaten up and wound up dead.

So, police started digging.

And they had a lucky break.

It turns out, the night Tim Waters was beaten up,

some neighbor saw two guys

sitting outside of his place of business in Burbank,

eating and dumping their trash out the window.

And give 'em credit, the Burbank police picked this stuff up

and put it away in an evidence locker.

It sat there for, Jesus, two and a half years?

And when things started to unravel, well, they said,

"Let's check on this evidence that we found."

The clearest prints were on a small carton of milk.

And sure enough,

there's Danny Galambos' fingerprints.

All roads led back to David Sconce.

They were clearly known associates.

They didn't know who we were

till they got to Danny Galambos.

They brought him in, they asked him questions,

and he was singing like a canary,

corroborated all the information about the Tim Waters beating.

And they knew that the guy died.

Once Danny Galambos was arrested,

he told the police David told him,

"I poisoned this guy and he died."

And Danny said, you know, that David had bragged about this to him.

So, the DA's office says, "Hey, you know, we should take a look at it."

Back in 1985, when Tim Waters died,

the medical examiner did an autopsy.

It was ruled a heart attack.

They found nothing suspicious.

But the thing is, they didn't look for anything suspicious.

But they did keep tissue samples.

And then, in 1987, the DA's office

orders these tissue samples to be analyzed.

They didn't do the toxicology report when Tim Waters died.

It was only when this came up again that they conducted those tests.

And they found an extract of poison made from oleander.

Oleander bushes are everywhere in Southern California.

At the end of streets, houses have them surrounding them.

Around my house at the time in Pasadena,

there were tons of oleander bushes.

They found that it was oleander poisoning.

It's chilling.

Now, this is all just hearsay.

But the word was, David has lunch with him someplace in The Valley.

Tim Waters dies.

And people said, "If David Sconce is gonna buy you lunch,

just tell him you've already eaten."

The police were looking into all of this.

But in the meantime, the district attorney

was ready to file the charges against David and his parents

for the offenses at the funeral home.

Roger Diamond, my attorney,

said that my parents and I should show up because they're gonna file charges.

And okay, so we all drive to Pasadena like we're told.

David Sconce and his parents

are accused of embezzling funds from prepaid funeral accounts,

of illegally removing and selling body tissue,

and of cremating bodies together without the consent from next of kin.

So, we appear in court,

and we're each supposed to have a $5,000 bail.

Well, I'm 31 years old. I've never been in trouble, ever.

My parents posted their bail.

And when they wanted to post my bail, the district attorney, Walt Lewis,

went over to Roger and he said,

"Hey, I'm sorry I had to lie to you about David's bail."

'Cause he'd raised it up to a half a million dollars.

His attorney, Roger Diamond, went nuts.

This bail request for $500,000 is really shocking. I don't believe...

And then, the judge said, "Hey, if it were up to me,

"it'd be a lot higher, because he's, A, a flight risk,

and B, he's a menace to society."

So, they swoop in and took me right to jail.

I was housed on "D Row"

in the LA County Jail in what they call

"the high-power section," which is where they keep

who they consider influential gang members,

celebrities.

So, everybody from Sean Penn

to some of the most horrendous murderers you've ever seen,

all on this one tier.

And we always knew, like, who was coming on the tier.

So, Sconce becomes an inmate on D Row.

And he appeared to be this unassuming Richie Cunningham,

just a white-bred kid that didn't belong.

He wasn't a gangster.

He was just a little pussy that came in off the streets.

My very first night in jail,

I was terrified. Terrified!

Man, I was crying for somebody to bail me out.

So, David became like my next-door neighbor.

And we discussed everything... me, him, lifestyles.

He did admit to commingling bodies, but he said, "Well, everybody does that."

You know, you throw three or four

in whatever, the cremator, or whatever it's called,

and divvy up the ashes, and everything's good.

But there came a point where you could just see

when he was telling stories

where he would become either overly animated,

or kind of excited about shit that the average human being

would go, "What the fuck?" And I'm a criminal, I'm not some sadist.

Whereas I would say his mask started to come down.

And he, at one point, I recall, told me that he had...

I wanna say it was an Anarchist Cookbook.

But he had done some research,

reading books on how to kill people without leaving, you know, signs.

I remember David telling me

about putting something in somebody's spaghetti at a restaurant.

But I couldn't tell you whose it was.

And was kinda proud of the fact that he had outsmarted everybody,

which is the equivalent of,

"Yeah, I did it, but they're never gonna fuckin' get me."

I told the DA David Sconce would talk about the things

that he wanted done in an open setting.

From what I understand, he had a book

that had different formulas for poisons.

He had this book, and he had it

in the car with him, and he would read things to me.

If we were riding together, he'd read things to me.

It was called The Poor Man's James Bond.

And it had sneaky ways of hurting and killing people.

And he... it was cute.

He would talk all the time and read all this stuff,

and, "Listen to this, and listen to this."

I really never figured he would do anything like that.

They asked me, and I said, "I know he likes

"to read that stuff and talk about that stuff,

"but I think he's all talk.

I don't think that he'd really ever do anything like that."

So, I was defensive of him at that point.

But they found the book in his car,

and I found the book his car. I read it.

When he mentioned the oleander, it was like,

"Oh, this stuff, you can't trace it.

It's a natural, you know, so nobody will ever know."