Original subtitles

It is terrifying to most people, the unpredictability of it, the swiftness of

it, the radiant heat.

It is truly terrifying.

Sure, the arsonists, they're criminals, but they don't divorce themselves from

the crime. They stay very close to it.

Welcome to Very Scary People. I'm Donnie Wahlberg.

During the evening in October 1984, Ole's, a home goods store in South

California, erupts in flames.

Shoppers and employees scramble to escape the raging inferno. But four

lose their lives that night, including a two -and -a -half -year -old and his

grandmother. Although investigators call the fire an accident, the truth is far

more sinister.

As the years go by and more fires are set, a pattern emerges.

Investigators realized there was a serial arsonist on the loose, and he

one of their own. The hunt is on to find the fire starter.

The night of October 10th, 1984, was game two of the World Series.

And Ole's Home Center, a store in South Pasadena, California, was open for

business. A handful of people were in there. Two of the people that were

shopping at the store was a grandmother and her two -and -a -half -year -old

grandson. I was working at the back of the store, and I heard somebody yelling,

hey, we need to clear the store, and I noticed that there was a column of

He immediately began to lecture the customers out of the store.

I saw that pillar of smoke, a wall of flames.

The smoke became so thick that he couldn't see anymore. He began feeling

the back of the building, heading towards where he knew a fire door was.

It just seemed like forever, but then I was like, I'm going to push these doors

open and I can get out to freedom.

In less than five minutes, this fire went from a small fire to a fully

12 ,000 square foot building.

I remember seeing smoke coming out of those doors, and it was just black.

I knew that there would be people that perished in the fire.

In all, there's four people that died in this Holy Fire.

My grandbaby, he would have been three in January.

He was with his other grandmother, and I'm sure she did everything she could

him.

I found out that evening that two of my co -workers passed away.

I was very saddened to hear that.

The captain is trying to direct his rookie firefighters into this massive

When John Orr shows up, he was the fire investigator for the city of Glendale.

Most of the people involved in fire investigation in Los Angeles County knew

John Orr was.

His reputation was almost larger than life. He had a knack of showing up on

scene and being able to relatively quickly identify the point of origin of

fire where other investigators had been stumped by until his arrival.

Orr was very, very good at fire detection. Why?

That was his life.

It was part of him. It was all -consuming for him.

If a fire ever turns out to be arson, that is a good idea to have some crowd

shots.

John was known for telling all these investigators that the bug is always in

crowd.

So you should video it so you can figure out whether somebody's showing up at a

bunch of your fires, and then you'll know that that person is the arsonist.

Or tells them, there's something happening here that you are missing.

And they ignore it.

If this is an arson, the potential victims inside will be homicide victims.

Most arsonists do not set fires in buildings that are occupied, except for

who intend to kill those people inside.

Other mysterious fires began erupting in businesses, frequently in the Los

Angeles area. And many of these fires had something in common. A homemade

incendiary device frequently found at the scene.

and that device was a relatively simple design but very effective. A cigarette

that had three matches attached to it by a rubber band, and it was placed inside

a piece of folded, yellow -lined notepad paper.

The device is obviously a signature, but the MO goes beyond that. The fires that

we were looking at were commercial businesses in the middle of the day when

they're occupied.

We had most likely a serial offender.

Arsonists had been starting fires, and we decided that it would be prudent to

form a task force.

We went out and talked to all of the investigators and see if they had had

fires that met that same M .O. One investigator remembered that years

similar incendiary device was found in a fire about 100 miles north of Los

Angeles in the city of Bakersfield, and it had a fingerprint on it.

When they first found it, there was no match for the print.

But investigators decided to test it again.

And this time, they got a match.

A phone call came in from the sheriff's lab.

He says, you got John Orr's fingerprints on it.

It made no sense that his prints should be on a device from Bakersfield.

As unbelievable as it was, John Orr was our suspect.

The excitement of the fire and... He was a top instructor, a top... Voice for

firefighters and arson investigators.

He was so well known in the state and so well respected.

If we were going to put a case together on that, we had to have an ironclad

case.

As we're starting to get into our plans, we learned that he's making a trip out

of town to a training conference in the Central Coast area of San Luis Obispo.

And the opportunity that he may start a fire and we can catch him in the act

was... too critical for us to pass up.

We needed to get a warrant from the court to authorize us to put a tracking

device on his vehicle.

He left on a Saturday morning.

John gets in his car and begins the drive to Central California with ATF

agents following him. And one of the things they discover is that he's not

to follow.

Fortunately, we had aerial surveillance because once he got out on the

interstate, he was driving at 90, 100 miles an hour using his emergency light

when someone got in his way.

He's forcing them to drive at these crazy speeds, weave in and out of

pedal to the metal the whole way.

Usually the plane flies in circles to try to keep a vehicle under

So he was driving so fast that the aircraft was actually paralleling him up

freeway.

Once he arrived at his hotel in San Luis Obispo, in the middle of the night we

had a couple of our tactical people crawl underneath his car and attach the

tracking device.

Now, it's not like what you might imagine the things are today.

This is a brown circular magnetic thing. It was basically a unit that sent out a

radio sound.

And the louder the sound was meant the closer you were to the vehicle you're

tracking. So in the end, it helped us stay close by, but you really had to

a line -of -sight surveillance.

We watched him every day during the conference. The second day, he was being

followed by one of the agents and went into a drugstore.

He's there pretty quickly and leaves.

So what the heck did he get?

Once he left, the agent ran in and asked the clerk what he had bought, and the

clerk said, oh, he bought a soft drink and a pack of cigarettes.

Well, that's really interesting because of all the people that are at this

firefighting conference, the one person who is the most adamantly against

smoking is John Orr. And he's just gone into this drugstore and bought a pack of

smokes.

A cigarette, obviously, was part of each one of the devices we recovered, so we

were really keyed up that something was going to be happening. On his drive back

to Los Angeles, we had the surveillance teams all geared up for it when the

class ended.

And no more than five minutes into it, he pulled into a car wash in the city of

San Luis Obispo.

I drove downtown to get the car wash, and as I was walking away from it, I

noticed a wire hanging down from the back.

And one of the agents realized that the tracking device had somehow become

dislodged, and he had noticed the antenna from it. So I got down there and

discovered this magnetically applied device on the car.

When he identified the tracking device in his car, we figured, this is it. It's

up. How are we going to handle it? What's our tactic? Are we going to grab

I mean, we've got to do something.

But lucky for investigators, it didn't seem like he realized he was being

tracked. He thought he had a bomb on his car.

So he gets in the car and drives as fast as he can to a police range where they

handle explosive devices.

And while he's doing that, investigators call ahead.

From the airplane, they radio down to the agent. Don't let him know it's a

tracking device.

Tell him you're not sure what it is. You'll analyze it, and you'll get back

him. John arrives, runs into the range, and says, Hey, I'm a fireman, and I

think there's a bomb attached to my car.

A day later, the bomb tech called John and told him, I took the device apart.

It's a hoax device.

Somebody's just messing with you.

We hoped that that story would work.

Within a few weeks, he's attending another training conference. One of our

agents is actually attending the training with him and trying to keep an

him. And he suddenly seems to disappear from the training during a break.

And around that same time, a trash barrel right outside the conference

has a small fire erupt.

And within minutes afterwards, the agent inside sees John again.

And we're thinking to ourselves, does he just know that we're here and is he

screwing with us? Or is this just a coincidence?

Investigators suspected John Orr of having set dozens of fires, and so they

out to interview witnesses at each of those scenes.

In between scrambling to handle the surveillances, we're still trying to get

witnesses interviewed, and we needed a photo lineup for John Orr.

We went out to the very first witness at one of the stores that had a large

fire, and when we showed the photo spread, she immediately picked John

photo up.

She says, oh, he's been in here several times.

And I said, well, when was the last time? And she said, the morning of the

probably 15 minutes before the fire.

It was a remarkable start to being able to get solid witness identification.

We were getting our arrest and search warrants in order when I got a call from

his supervisor.

He pulled out a letter. He says, I found my secretary typing this this morning

for John Orr.

When I read this letter, I couldn't believe what I was reading.

My novel is fiction, but it's based on a real arsonist who has again hit the L

.A. area this year doing over $12 million in damage.

It is my feeling that the arsonist could be a firefighter.

He was, in fact, trying to solicit a publisher to read his manuscript.

By 1990 or so, I had already had half a dozen articles printed or published in a

national fire magazine.

And I thought, well, I might be able to write the novel.

The first thing I did when I got the manuscript was pull myself up in an

and read it in its entirety, and I found it to be very scary.

It's frankly floored, me and everybody that read it. The manuscript was called

Points of Origin, and it's basically the story of a firefighter who is a serial

arsonist setting fires in commercial buildings throughout the state of

California.

I knew about serial arsonists because I'd arrested so many of them and went

ahead and made it a firefighter gone bad type plot line.

I'd seen lots of novels that had cops that had gone bad, but I'd never seen

where a firefighter had gone bad.

In some ways, it was more like a diary than a fiction.

He was using different names for businesses, but in reality, describing

exact fires that we were investigating him for being responsible for.

we were able to say, okay, this is that fire.

Everything in this book likely really happened.

The Oles fire is depicted in the book as Cal's fire, is what he calls the

location. He specifically references the grandmother and her two -and -a -half

-year -old grandson who died, and then makes one comment that he had no way of

knowing unless he came in contact with her, and that was that...

She had taken him for mint chip ice cream at the Baskin Robbins.

When we went out and spoke to the surviving grandfather, we asked him, did

go to Baskin Robbins? And what he actually told us was, no, what we had

we had told the two -and -a -half -year -old that if he behaved himself while we

were shopping in the store, we would take him to Baskin Robbins afterwards.

and his favorite ice cream was mint chip ice cream, which was the exact ice

cream that John Orr referenced in the manuscript.

The killer overheard that conversation, and that conversation showed up in the

text of the fictional work.

It was a Friday, and I had just completed the final examination.

28 statewide investigators in Glendale.

I was at a class that John had put together.

I didn't know that he was the focus of the investigation, and a short time

afterwards, I was dispatched to a fire at the Warner Brothers lot.

Located within the city of Burbank is Warner Studios.

I would say having a fire at the Warner Brothers lot is a rarity.

I met up with the head of security.

I looked at the fire scene.

The fire was already out.

I looked at some of the burn patterns in the floor.

The fire was starting to look more and more like it was an arson fire.

So being that I had finished the class that day, I called John. We're eating

dinner, and I was requested by Investigator Steve Patterson.

He got me on the phone and said, Hey, John, we had this fire over here, the

Warner Lot.

I'd like you to come over and take a look at it.

He asked me how to get into the lot, so I told him that I would be at the gate

waiting for him on his arrival.

I waited there at the gate, and it seemed like I had been waiting there for

quite a while. I got on the radio, and John, hey, I'm over here at the gate

waiting for you to come in. Where are you?

He said, oh, I'm already at the scene.

I'm wondering, he said he didn't know how to get into the lot.

Never reached out to Steve, told him he found his way there.

Just left Steve out there. I found out from the head of security later on that

John had been on the lot a number of times.

His wife worked at the studios and he would come there and have lunch with her

on occasion.

And we know that just before the Warner fire ignited, John Orr's vehicle was

parked just outside the gate.

One day, John Orr left the office, did a drive around the town in just a circle,

and went right back to the office.

They realized shortly thereafter that along the route he had taken, there had

been a fire started in some brush just off to the side of the road.

So it was frankly concerning to us that he was going to start a fire and someone

was going to get hurt. We decided we had to move on the case and make arrests.

I was with a boyfriend of mine, and we went to his parents' house. And they

said, hey, Lori, you've got your dad on the TV. You've got to come check this

out. And the first thing I saw was my dad in handcuffs. The city's top arson

investigator is himself charged with arson. And then they were describing

he was being arrested for arson.

And, of course, I really thought it was a mistake. There's no way he could do

that. Orr spoke to Inside Edition about the moment of his arrest.

It was a total surprise.

I'd come out of my house on my way to work like I do every day of the week,

days a week, and starting to get into my car, and suddenly surrounded by about

18 to 20 federal and local investigators.

In his briefcase and in his car, we found cigarettes, matches, rubber bands,

materials for the incendiary device.

At one point, I told him, we've even recovered a device from one of the

and we lifted your fingerprint off.

You would expect an innocent person to say, no, you didn't. You couldn't

possibly get my fingerprint off it.

He says, well, how many prints did you get?

Why would you even ask that question unless you were trying to find out what

evidence we had against him?

After I was arrested, my family, which included my two daughters, came to the

house, and they were in total support of me.

He wasn't very talkative about the obvious situation that he was under

arrest. We asked a few little questions. Now looking back, I wish I would have

asked a million more questions at that moment.

My dad was my hero, my sister's hero, and we looked at him as the world's

He just was really doing no wrong in our eyes.

At first, I'm thinking there's no possible way John would have been

setting fires.

To me, it just was out of the realm of my thinking.

His colleagues in the fire department, they all thought he was really a good

guy. A guy like Orr has such a mask, such a facade of normality, that it's

almost impossible to detect something is wrong unless you know what he did.

Nobody considered him to be a pyromaniac or deviant in any particular way.

I found out later on John was there videotaping the fires prior to the

of the fire department.

He had a video of the first in -fire companies arriving on scene.

How was he there before the first responders got there unless he was

for the fire?

We found a number of videos, buildings.

homes where he was taking videos before a fire occurred and then taking video

after the fire occurred.

One of the videos showed a beautiful mansion on a hillside, and then the next

clip is the building on fire and the brush burning up the hillside to the

My goal was to find out, how did John Orr become the fire monster that he was?

Welcome back to Very Scary People.

John Orr was setting fires all over the state of California for the better part

of a decade.

But after years of evading the law, investigators finally have their elusive

arsonist behind bars.

Orr is diagnosed as a pyromaniac, an impulse control disorder, the

urge to light fires.

What is it about setting fires that is so alluring to pyromaniacs? Why would

someone risk everything?

Career? family freedom, in order to wreak havoc and destruction or even kill

with just the flick of a flame.

Pyromania is a compulsion and a drive to set a fire.

The best way to understand pyromania is that it's an abnormal sexual arousal

pattern where setting the fire itself is sexually arousing for the individual.

The power and the sense of control and dominance that the pyromaniac achieves

watching the fire consume everything, it's that type of activity which is so

arousing. It's stimulating to be so powerful to be able to annihilate an

entire section of town.

But an individual doesn't wake up one day and say, I think I'll go out and set

bunch of fires. That sounds like a good idea.

No, it begins years earlier in the offender's mind.

As far as I know, my dad always wanted to be either a policeman or a fireman.

I've never heard any story that he's ever wanted to be anything else.

My mom and dad met in high school, and my dad entered the military shortly

graduating, and so my mom and dad got married at that point.

When my dad got out of the Air Force, they went back to Los Angeles.

He went through most of the process until he got to the psychological

evaluation.

He was

in

the training.

and he just wasn't physically fit enough.

I could pass the physical aspects of it. So I was terminated from the L .A. Fire

Department in 1973.

For him, it must have been devastating because he wanted in so bad.

It just seems like it was a desperation for him to go into that field.

It was my dream job.

I thought I was well qualified for it, and I should have applied myself harder.

Todd adds somewhere that the Glendale Fire Department was going to be hiring.

And within four months, I'd been hired by the Glendale Fire Department.

And about 1978, I started taking fire investigation and police -type courses,

and we started making names for ourselves.

We actually arrested more people for arson than had been arrested in Glendale

the last seven years.

His personality and sense of control and needing control.

was why he was really good at his job.

He rose through the ranks, and then he went on to fire captain.

I would often see him on the news talking about fires and talking about

people, animals, and, of course, being proud that he was one of those

firefighters. And I'd go to school and tell all my friends that, you know, did

you see the news last night? My dad was on there. We have some very good leads,

and some of the evidence matches up with this individual and ties him into the

fires. He did like the limelight. Or as somebody who wanted to be authority. He

definitely wanted to have a position with it.

He had a tremendous need to be dominant, in control.

And these are all some of the motivating characteristics that you commonly find

in serial offenders.

But as his career was thriving, it turned out John Orr wasn't all that

all. One day my mom came home from shopping and my dad had left a Dear John

letter saying that he was leaving.

She went out looking for him.

She did actually see him driving around at that moment and he had two women in

his car.

From what I know now, my dad was never faithful to anybody.

I've known of him cheating on every person he's ever been with.

Everything that I did, As far as investigating, John was based on the

manuscript.

If all these fires are true, what did he do in his personal life?

He describes how the arsonist tied up his girlfriend.

Was he tying up his girlfriends? Was he doing all the same activity that he

described in the book?

I found out who one of his girlfriends was.

He said he would rip her clothing off and he would tie her up to the bed.

He had had sex with her that way.

It was basically a mock rape.

It doesn't surprise me at all that there's deviant sexual behavior in his

background.

I also interviewed one of his wives, and she told me that he had actually put a

pillow over her face one time.

He held a gun to a pillow, and then he told her, I'm going to blow your hat

In July of 1992, the first of John Orr's trials began.

For the next six years, he would be in and out of court, suspected of arson and

attempted arson in dozens of fires.

We brought John Orr to trial in Fresno.

Florida fires in 1987.

The ATF put together the fact that John Orr was coming from Southern California,

attending the California Conference of Arson Investigators, and setting fires

coming and going from the conference.

And they charged him in the federal courts with these five fires.

During one phone call with him from jail...

I remember him saying that it was a fireman that was lighting these fires

that he knew who it was, but that he couldn't say it over the phone because

phones were recorded by the jails. I just automatically thought that he would

get out of these charges and everything would be fine.

Orr is responsible for the arson fires of retail stores, which

resulted in substantial damages.

The jury convicted him of three of the fires and acquitted him of two. And the

court sentenced him to 30 years in federal prison.

After the conviction, I was transported down to Los Angeles for eight more

counts of open -for -business retail files in the Los Angeles county area.

The day before trial in Los Angeles, he decided to plead guilty to three counts.

So they agreed to a plea that he would not serve any additional time for the

convictions in Los Angeles.

That was the worst thing in the world I could have ever done. The fact that I

had pled guilty to three counts in the L .A. County area, that opened the door

for the state prosecution to show that I had a propensity for setting fire at

retail stores that were open for business.

We also charged him with a fire in the community called College Hills of

Glendale. It was the largest fire in the city of Glendale's history.

And they also charged him with the crime for which he would face the death

penalty, capital murder for the Ole's Home Center fire in South Pasadena.

In all, there's four people that died in this Ole's fire.

Among them were Ada Deal and her grandson, Matthew Troital. We charged

four counts of murder.

I've spent the last five years prosecuting exclusively arson cases, and

to...

see one of the fire service involved or even charged with anything serious.

Orr spoke on camera to Inside Edition about his deep preparation for trial.

I'd spend at least eight hours a day working on my case, and my attorney

me several times a week.

And it's just as busy now as I used to be. It's the biggest investigation I've

ever been involved in.

Most of our focus on motive was power, for making the fire department go to

where he wants them to go by setting fires.

We established that he had a signature pattern of committing crimes, that a

could look at it and say, if you did this one, probably, beyond a reasonable

doubt, you did this other fire.

The prosecutor summed up his murder case by telling a jury that an unpublished

fictional novel by a Glendale fire captain detailed this fire because he

arsonist who set it.

I was watching TV and they were saying that my dad wrote this book.

And I had no idea that my dad had ever written a book. Why wouldn't he mention

that to me?

That's when I started to realize that there were parts of him that I didn't

know.

Once I read even the first chapter, it scared me because everything that he was

describing was things that I remember from my childhood.

If this book wasn't fiction, what else about what they're saying is true?

I think that he believed he could beat it.

John was cocky and dismissive of the state's case.

I know better than you. I know better than the state. I know better than the

prosecutors.

He was definitely trying to keep up an image to the family and to me.

And I kind of even think that he even knew that if he was convicted, he would

need us to testify for him to not get the death penalty.

The co -prosecutors say they expect to finish late tomorrow or early Wednesday.

Then the defense takes over with the case going to the jury late this week.

The defense, the crux of their argument was he had already admitted all the

fires he did, and he didn't do these.

That was really it.

They can suspect him of every fire that's ever committed, and that's what

they're doing.

Typically in arson cases, they don't have much evidence, so they can suspect

of any fire that's ever started.

There is no such thing as a slam -dunk case as a prosecutor.

No matter how good you think your case is, no matter how strong you think the

evidence is, you never really know what 12 members of the community are going to

do when they get that evidence.

So it was nerve -wracking, and the jury was out for almost three weeks.

The jury came

back with a guilty verdict as to all of the homicides.

And convicted him of all of the College Hills houses that burned.

He was, however, acquitted of the fire on the Warner Brothers lot.

I was devastated.

I realized that I would never really see him in the free world again.

It was just gone in one day, in one minute.

After the verdict came in, the penalty phase was going to start and we would be

testifying.

In a death penalty case.

One of the things a defendant often does is show a jury why his life is worth

saving.

John didn't have a lot of saving graces, but he did have Lori, his daughter.

So I just go into, I need to save my dad mode.

I had to walk up to the stand, and I did spot my dad off to the side, and, you

know, we made eye contact, and at that point I expected him to smile or...

say I love you or thank you maybe or but he just stared at me like I was a

stranger when I was on the stand they put a picture of my son who was one or

at the time if they spare his life would I still have a relationship with him

and would I let my kids have one with him I did say yes I absolutely would

my dad I love him all the things you would expect a child to say and all the

things that I regret saying now.

John Orr had been convicted of murder for setting the 1984 fire at Ole's Home

Center in South Pasadena that killed four people.

And now he was facing the death penalty, largely as a result of Lori's

testimony. John got a life sentence instead of death.

I remember thinking, okay, now I won't have to watch him die, and I did enough,

and I won't have to carry that guilt around forever.

I felt that justice was served.

He was never going to get out of prison, and he'll never come out and hurt

anybody else.

But he's still gone for the rest of my life.

I can't celebrate birthdays with him. He'll never walk me down the aisle. The

list just goes on and on when you lose a parent.

Over the years, I really just gathered as much information as I could to come

my own conclusions about my dad.

My family was worried about turning me against my dad when I was believing he

was innocent, so they didn't tell me these things that they knew about.

One of those things was My mom, who, when she was married to my dad, he was

leaving for work and she was looking out the window and he had put down the

visor of the car and cigarettes fell onto his lap.

My dad's always been an adamant non -smoker.

At first he tried to deny it, but she kind of kept at him a little bit.

Finally he admitted that he did have cigarettes and that he was lighting

brush fires.

For me, that information was...

like the nail in the coffin, he's guilty.

It's as simple as that.

John was five or six when he set his first fire.

That was documented to some friend of his that was interviewed.

They were averaging 70, 80 fires a year for the 10 years leading up to John's

arrest. The year after his arrest, they had two fires in the area.

We determined that the fires had went down in Glendale, Burbank, Pasadena by

about 75%. The drop in fires tells me we arrested the right person.

After I was arrested, there was a lot of publicity focusing on the L .A. County

area where they're citing these supposed statistics of the arson drop.

One thing they didn't consider was I was arrested in December, and we had a wet,

rainy season in 1992.

These people build up all kinds of defense mechanisms in their own mind.

know exactly what they did. But for them to give you the satisfaction of

admitting that and telling them that, that almost never happens.

If we had not been able to identify John Orr and arrest him, there certainly

would have been more fires.

I've got one appeal that's in front of the California Supreme Court is to

proclaim my innocence.

There wasn't sufficient information.

Looking back now, my dad's manipulated me my entire life. You know, I didn't

know it at the time, but he's a master manipulator and he was doing that.

from day one.

After I came to the conclusion that he was guilty, I wrote him a letter saying,

I really think that you did these horrible things, and I need you to

that you didn't.

Like, this is your last chance.

In my daughter Lori's final letter to me, she said that she would not

communicate with me until I confessed to my crimes and admitted guilt to the

arson cases.

And I've always told her that I'm not going to do that. I can't do that. I

confess to something I didn't do, even at the risk of losing the connection

her, which I ultimately did.

That just wasn't enough for me. So I cut off the relationship.

It's heartbreaking to me.

I'm not at all surprised that notwithstanding the plea from his

the truth, that he doesn't do it. It's very, very typical.

You could go into the state prison.

And nobody's 100 % guilty.

Some people have called John Orr the most prolific arsonist in the history of

the United States.

I first was made aware of being called the most prolific serial arsonist of the

20th century after I was arrested, and it kind of devastated me to hear that.

I do not believe that John Orr was convicted of all the fires he was

for. We didn't even charge all the fires that I know he was responsible for. I

believe he has set in excess of 2 ,000 fires.

I think John Orr is someone who led a double life. On one hand, he was a very

skilled fire investigator who was really on top of his game.

And on the other hand, he led a secret life of setting fires, abnormal sexual

behavior with his wives and partners.

The fact that a man who is in a career to save people from The tragedy of a

is the one putting them in that tragedy of fire is probably the largest betrayal

someone could admit.

He betrayed his family. He betrayed the fire industry, all of his co -workers,

everyone that had ever been involved with him. Everything was a betrayal.

To this day, John Orr continues to proclaim his innocence, despite his two

convictions. We spoke with him by phone from Mule Creek State Prison in

California. He insists that his case was mishandled by his attorneys.

He's appealed his convictions multiple times, even filing for a writ of habeas

corpus, a motion for freedom. It is very rarely granted, and there is no other

path to freedom for John Orr if it is rejected.

I'm Donnie Wahlberg.

Thanks for watching.

Good night.

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