Original subtitles

And if it's not, it's like the big

storm or equally all bad weather coming or

good weather coming or Swedish people will talk

about the weather when they meet people like

it's just a thing it's a cultural thing

I think but it's funny when you move

somewhere where where it's not and you and

you try and talk about the weather they're

like talking about the weather for is like

anyway yeah no I'm interested too I think

like I said I'm not here to interview

you and I always find it interesting because

I feel like I speak about or we

do as well everyone who's on the speaking

circuit of things it's like the whole finding

your voice thing is such a it always

comes up but I'm like yeah I'm not

sure what that means really sometimes I feel

like that's a thing we say and then

people say I haven't I haven't found my

voice yet and it's like yeah I don't

think you do like I don't think I

think it's an evolving thing to begin with

but I also think it's like you're you

have a voice and then it's a what

you do with that it's like I think

that your voice is what you're into right

now to me like you're doing the things

that you enjoy doing or you get to

point with like I don't enjoy what I'm

doing and then if you feel a bit

of an itch that you want to change

that but the people say they haven't found

their voice I mean I don't I'm not

saying they're wrong but I find that maybe

the difference between someone who thinks they find

a voice is that they're conscious about where

they are and where they want to go

while a lot I want to go I

think a lack of direction is more a

problem then I don't think you find something

randomly I think you have to pursue it

anyway I think it's funny I was watching

I don't know if you ever watched David

Chappelle like some of his stand-up comedy

but he he was there was something I

saw probably about a month ago and he

was quoting Miles Davis and he said you

know Miles said it took me years to

learn how to play like myself yeah I

think it's you know I've heard it in

different contexts different ways of that and that

but I think it's I think the one

thing I've noticed so this will be my

I think 17th year shooting weddings yeah or

would have been I guess you know but

17 years 17 yeah shooting weddings I think

the thing that I found or I've noticed

over all these years is that people that

you know quote-unquote have a voice yeah

or are ought to have have a voice

or a style yeah is it in a

sense is genuinely yeah I think that's a

huge thing yeah when people start in this

industry especially now because you know yeah when

I started it was you know it was

like yellow pages ads yeah and magazine so

you weren't always inundated with social media you

weren't always inundated with like these styles and

these awards and all this stuff so yeah

you know now it's you're constantly seeing all

these different things and you kind of latch

on to things that are popular or resonate

with you at the moment because of maybe

what you're going to personally yeah or what

you're doing you know business wise is slow

and you see someone else in your industries

it's really busy and they're doing something else

it's you

know I always use you know Lanny and

Erica yeah man it's like your style is

like like their work is a very representation

of who they are as people yeah man

and you know they're the same way yeah

differently and they shift differently yeah and I

think that's where that's what I change

over time because everyone grows a

lot of people search for things in this

way that yeah you know they're kind of

influenced from outside sources which I think is

good and bad for sure I think personally

I always I know you teach workshops as

well and I think that I always say

in my workshops is that and not my

photography so much but my my writing back

in 2004 I decided to start for eight

years the thing the problem I had was

that I had never written anything personal whenever

but I knew how to write in these

advertising way here or emotional way here or

do this and that like which hat do

I put on now and don't don't try

don't do don't do voice at all don't

don't worry about how it comes across just

just write don't even worry about grammar you

know you sit down and write what comes

out and as soon as I started doing

that people wrote me immediately and said and

you've got such a distinct voice and I'm

like I can hear I've tried for years

to sound like someone else yeah I tried

it I used to sing a lot of

play guitar and and I always try and

used to try and sound like my heroes

like Bono and Guns N' Roses and a

bunch of people like and it wasn't until

I stopped trying to sing like them that

I actually developed a voice of my own

you know again

you know I it's hard for me I

find it hard in this day and age

because I you know I feel like it

was a benefit for me to start shooting

in a world where we weren't have all

this stuff like we were just shoot just

for the sake of shooting yeah it was

just like we just like shooting so it

was just shooting and now because they see

you know it's the you traveling time I

start emulating or doing that all the while

kind of you know yeah crushing what maybe

feels right to that yes it's you know

they want to emulate this thing and like

you said if you just shoot for the

sake of shooting yeah you know just regardless

of it's good or bad you know like

you know now's to you know I've been

doing it for years but even just starting

that there's no rule that says whatever we

shoot we have to share yeah right like

because we shot it doesn't mean we have

to post it to anywhere right so it's

like just shoot a ton of shit but

just shoot everything dark light you know 7200

24 you know like just shoot a ton

of stuff and I think that's a huge

thing that people aren't doing is they're not

they're not shooting enough because they feel like

if they shoot it they gotta share it

yeah like no rule to do that I

even tell people don't do it like don't

don't share what you don't like because you're

gonna be stuck shooting that next year that's

what you be shooting because it's like if

you show if you show stuff now people

are booking you for next year and if

you don't like doing it now you're gonna

fucking hate doing it right and you gotta

shoot it because that's what they're looking for

so it's like if you're not you know

if you're not getting into this mindset where

it's like I thought it's just again I

know I'm not a big fan of that

term voice but I'm not you know if

you just start shooting I've always been a

huge preacher of you know shoot selfishly yeah

shoot for you yeah you know obviously you

do the grandma photos that type of thing

but to me it's like if you can

shoot for you throughout you know that style

is definitely gonna grow faster than you are

if you're shooting for you more so than

shooting for couples yeah I fully believe in

that and I been back to my I

said I'm not starting my workshop they're probably

dead after this anyway but I talk about

that in my workshops to us I always

say that that I think that I think

I even when I was at my business

when I shot like 65 weddings in 2010

and the chair hello just

like me at my I was a like

he could say after my internet are you

still there?

This is my internet, probably.

But even then, half of what I shot,

I would never, not that it was anything

bad, bad.

They were proud about the work.

I was okay with it.

But it just wasn't connection-wise or style

-wise what I was wanting to put out

into the world.

For me, it's not about picking the most

pretty weddings.

It's selfishly, this is what I want to

shoot.

This is what I want people to book

me for.

I bring up Jose Villa, the film photographer

in California.

He never shoots or never shows any indoor

ceremonies whatsoever because he knows I'm shooting film.

I don't want to shoot church ceremonies in

Calgary.

Well, if you don't want to shoot them,

don't show them because you'll be booked for

them next year.

If you hate a venue or whatever, don't

show it because you'll be shooting there next

year.

It's funny because I think a lot of

us, I genuinely feel that mentality comes from

experience.

You almost verbatim say the same things I've

said that I've done workshops with where he

says the same thing.

I think that is an experience thing because

I think a lot of us, myself included,

when I started, it was like, well, I'm

afraid the couple is going to be mad

at me if I don't blog it.

I think over time, I realized they don't

care.

More often than not, as long as you

created nice work in a style they liked

and it was consistent with what you were

showing them and why they booked you, you

gave them their photos.

To me, there are obviously a few really

egocentric couples that are annoyed that they end

up on your blog.

Overall, like you said, if you don't want

to shoot indoor ceremonies and when I do

portfolio reviews, which I'm sure you've been in

the same.

I've been at workshops with conferences where we

do them and you see this constant commonality

amongst photographers who are like, I don't like

my couples.

I only get destination work and then you

can go to the website and I'm like,

do you like the stylist couple?

They're like, no, and then it's all indoors

at their local venue.

I'm like, well, no one's going to book

you to go to Bali if you're showing

community center weddings.

The couple has to be able to put

themselves in your work and if they can't

place themselves in your photo, it's going to

be impossible to do it.

I think it's definitely a learning realization you

get after your time.

I think so too.

I think a lot of the people who

I admire for their voice, I wouldn't say

that you need to be older, but I

think it helped me being older when I

started.

I didn't shoot a wedding before I was

35 and for me, I had a good

grasp on what I wanted it to be.

With that said, my first couple of years

were probably a bit of a shoot everything,

but I still knew, maybe more so than

you did, don't show the shit stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's not that it's shit, the couples

aren't good looking enough.

It's just a matter of things didn't work

out 100% today.

It could be a bunch of things.

It could be, I'm just not sure that,

to me, I'm selfish in that sense that

I want the couples to have a really

close connection.

And if they don't, sure, I can help

them along and I can do portraits and

stuff.

But if I feel like there's just no

connection in this wedding between people, then I

have a hard time showing it.

I want to book couples that have a

really tight connection and are very emotional.

And for me, showing work that lacks that,

I don't think it's...

And that leads me to the next question

I wrote down to you.

I will say this, a couple of years

ago, and I've been then shooting for a

long time and been successful, but I was

starting, I'm always looking at what I'm doing.

And I was starting to feel like I

wasn't 100% happy with how I post

my couple for connection and stuff.

How do I get them to be more...

I was lacking an intimacy in my portraiture,

I found.

And I was just looking at what I

did.

I just wanted to be more intimate and

more personal.

But I haven't...

But I wasn't showing any of that stuff.

I have a session here and there or

whatever.

So my question to you is, and I'm

not saying...

But if you are in a place where

you feel, what I'm getting booked for and

where I am, I want to move that,

I want to twist that, or I want

to tweak it a bit to make it

a bit more...

How much do you think you need to

be very hands-on and very...

Because I found that people didn't understand where

I wanted to take stuff.

I wanted them to be more...

Yeah, I want to direct them more and

get them to have a more genuine connection

and stuff.

And how do I get them to understand,

A, what I'm after and what I can't

show in my own work.

And I found that I had to be

just very direct and very...

It's like, okay, I'm going to just have

to run this shit and show them what

I want and stuff.

And it did work out.

But it also...

I guess my question is to you, when

you found that...

I mean, your style now and your style

that you show from your early days is

quite dramatically different.

Was that a long process or did you

find yourself at one point, I want to

move in this direction?

And if so, did you do anything deliberate

to A, get couples or did you just

have to mend them into the mold that

you were seeing yourself in the future?

Yeah.

It wasn't like an overnight thing, for sure.

It was probably a few years, which I

think just a side note to that, I

feel like that's another detriment to a lot

of people now.

And I know a lot of people don't

like to hear that, but I don't think

a lot of people like taking time to

do anything.

I feel like everything is instant.

Everything's instant.

They need it instantly.

How do I book my destination wedding tomorrow?

How do I change my style next month?

It's like, well, shit, it doesn't work that

way.

So I think that's a huge thing that

I feel like a lot of people need

to know.

I think one of the things that I

remember hearing years ago, probably 10 years ago,

I don't know who said it, but it

was like the one for the, one for

me, one for the, two for me, one

for the, five for me, that mentality.

And that's really when I started.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

So yeah.

So the one for the one for me

mentality, right.

I remember hearing that years ago and it

really kind of opened my eyes to be

like, okay, so I wasn't really digging the

style that I was doing because I was

constantly chasing styles.

Like nothing was really me.

And I remember dreading going to work, which

was a really shitty thing.

Yeah.

Because of the pooping bride photos.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The pooping bride photos.

That's like the famous one.

But yeah, it was, I would pose couples.

I would obviously shoot the way I was

getting hired to shoot, but at a moment,

you know, during the portrait session, I might

get them to hold each other tightly and

then cut off their head.

So it was just the arm because this

to me was, if a couple's not comfortable,

this will show it instantly.

Right.

You know what I mean?

Like they just, if they're not in it,

this is going to be it.

So to me, if they weren't in it,

I would just cut this off.

Yeah.

Like just chop it and just show an

embrace or hand or whatever that is.

Yeah.

And then I just do that over probably

about a course of a summer, a year

and just shoot those photos and try to

get one or two at a wedding and

then build a portfolio off that.

If I shot 25 weddings and I was

taking two for me at every wedding, at

the end of the year, I could relaunch

with 50 new photos that really genuinely jived

with who I was.

So yeah.

And then saying that now it's like, I

am very directed with my couples.

Like I am, you know, I, I would

say I'm more direct.

I would say 99% of the photos

that people see on my website, my Instagram

feed, all that stuff for the couples are

like having that moment.

Yeah.

They're extremely post like to the point where

I'm like, if you just turn your head

here, you know, pull this piece of hair

here, put everything back here.

And when you turn your head, the wind's

going to blow your hair this way.

You know, I'm very conscious of what it

is I'm after because I think we've all

been in those moments where you get this

amazing connection between a couple and most people

when they're having that moment with their partner

on their wedding day or during a connection

session or engagement or whatever, they tend to

bury themselves into each other.

Right.

So all of a sudden now you have

this amazing moment that you can't visually make

out what's going on.

So to me, like I want to make

it visually connection, like a visual connection, but

make it look good.

So I'm very happy.

And I think that's the thing.

Like what you said, shooting one for me,

one for the, I've always done that as

well.

And I think the, a lot of people

think, and again, I think what makes, I

don't know, I'm not saying what makes everyone

good, but I think what's made me sort

of good in that aspect is that I've

always been a good curator of my own

work.

Like I don't, I only show, if I

have 20 portraits from a wedding, which I

don't normally, but if I do, I pick

the one that resonates with where I want

it to be.

Like I get couples, no, no being racist

here or whatever, but asking me, can you

do some fun photos?

Can we do fun photos on the beach

and do like stars?

Sure thing.

But in the light of me, again, even

in there, for me, because I, I don't

want to show them and say, oh, you

booked the wrong photo.

Yeah.

That comes from the beach.

Hello.

It just disappeared.

I don't know what's going on here.

Anyway, so I think being a curator of

your own work, even now, really, like it's

not about where I want to go.

It's just a matter of, even during a

portrait shoot or a connection session, it's one

or two or three or five moments that

are exactly what I'm after.

If they're not where I want them to

be, I sometimes share, again, back to the

workshop, I share a portrait shoot that I

did in, I was in Kauai, one of

the Hawaii islands.

And I share them how little of the

session, because I don't post as much as

you do.

I sort of wait and rely on stuff

to happen.

And once it's there, I'm there.

I see it and I can see it

coming and I'm good at picking it up.

But it means that it's, I take 150

photos to get to the five, the 10

that are spot on.

A really sucky poor connection.

I think I've stopped shooting or whatever.

And that's when the actual, what I'm after

is coming out.

But I also, I will say that that

has been my approach and it can be

quite a frustrating one because you're just waiting

for something to happen and you're in charge

of getting it.

So I've started in the last couple of

years to be much more, I know what

I want and I'm just going to squeeze

it out of you in the gentlest way

possible.

Yeah.

And it's so true.

I think that's exactly it.

It's like, when you know what you want,

when you know what you're after, I think

there's so many different steps to getting to

these things of finding your voice is to

shoot a ton of shit, to find out

what you resonate with, to really be honest

with yourself.

I think that's a huge thing.

People aren't honest with themselves with what they're

really resonating with.

I feel like they're resonating with stuff in

this kind of convoluted, you know, kind of

blurry thing that's maybe what's popular right now.

And that's what they're resonating with.

And why are you resonating with that?

But I think to really focus in on

what it is you're after, and then from

there, trying to figure out how to wear

a t-shirt.

I think that's a huge thing for all

of us, is we know what we want,

but we don't know how to tell a

couple.

I think that's a huge thing too.

I think being able to articulate first for

yourself, because when I sat down, I didn't

really, it sounds like I had a meeting

with myself, that wasn't happening, but we fly

a lot and we're on planes and edit

a session on a plane or whatever.

And I'm like, there's something here that's just

not, I'm not 100% happy with this.

And what is it?

And to be able to articulate, I want

it to be more intimate or whatever it

is, what does that mean?

What do I mean by that?

What I did, and I've done this since

I worked in advertising, and I do it

still quite a bit.

And it's a weird tool, but I do

mood boards, like, okay, so this is what

I want it to feel like.

And then I would look at this is

what my work is.

And I was like, that's not, how can

I get it to, if you can articulate

what is missing, then it's much easier to

move to a direction.

If you just go, I don't like what

I do.

Oh, you fucking figure out what it is

about it you don't like.

Because before you've done that, there's no way

that you'd be able to move to a

new position.

Like, if you know that I want my

portraits to be more intimate, I feel more

whatever, whatever, then you can move in that

direction.

But before you have those things articulated to

yourself, there's no way you're going to be

able to show it to a couple.

And that's exactly it.

You're just going to be, you just be

spinning your wheels, you know, running, I always

say, like running uphill on a treadmill.

Like, it's just like, you're not going anywhere.

You're not, you're not honest with yourself.

You're just, you know, and I did that

for years.

And I think everyone knows when I do

my conferences, they've all seen it, like a

different style of work.

It was because I just, I wasn't articulating

to myself and honest with myself is what

it is that I liked.

I just like things because they're positive.

That's it.

That's really, you know, and yeah, that's a

huge thing.

So I think, like you said, that mood

board is incredible.

You know, for me, it was, I would

take a bunch of photos, go through them

really quickly and just pick ones out that

just made me feel something, regardless if it's

good or bad.

Yeah.