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1
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It seems to me that origination
is perhaps instinct, not intellect.
2
00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,957
In '68,
the whole world was exploding.
3
00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,709
There was Paris,
Vietnam, Grosvenor Square,
4
00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,320
the...counterculture...
5
00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:50,874
It had an affect on me,
that kind of...
6
00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,036
taking direct action.
7
00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:57,915
I remember somebody shouting out,
"The Rolling Stones are on telly!"
8
00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:01,555
And so we sort of cut across the
railways and went over to their house
9
00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,478
and some bloke's
jumping around on the TV.
10
00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:11,119
Street Fighting Man
We just accepted as a fantastic song.
11
00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:15,392
The first records I bought with
my money was Jimi Hendrix Smash Hits
12
00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:17,715
and also Disraeli Gears by the Cream.
13
00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,149
I don't think we had the faculty
14
00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,272
to take on board really
what it was saying.
15
00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:28,189
The sounds that I remember hearing...
16
00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,470
Was probably reggae, really.
17
00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:32,750
I used to pass by a lot of houses
18
00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,156
where there was
West Indian music playing.
19
00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:40,591
I can remember hearing
Not Fade Away by The Rolling Stones
20
00:02:40,640 --> 00:02:43,359
coming out of this huge wooden radio.
21
00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:48,636
I did my first concer playing a
Beatles number with a tennis racket
22
00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,911
on the front lawn of the block
of flats I lived at -
23
00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,236
I was about 10 years old -
for all the people passing by.
24
00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:58,078
My brother'd be in the room
with headphones on,
25
00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,874
then he'd take the headphones off
and he'd been listening to Yes.
26
00:03:01,920 --> 00:03:06,198
There'd be birds twittering. I'd go,
"God, what are you listening to? "
27
00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,676
The Beatles, The Stones,
The Yardbirds, The Kinks...
28
00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,030
It was a great year to come of age -
fantastic!
29
00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:38,840
Maybe music became an escape for me.
30
00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,873
I think it did to a cerain extent -
my parents used to fight a lot.
31
00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:45,798
And my gran
used to take me downstairs -
32
00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:50,231
they had a bomb shelter
in the basement of the flats.
33
00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:54,512
My father was in the Foreign Office
and that's why I was born in Turkey.
34
00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,996
She'd take me downstairs
and we'd wait for it to, like...
35
00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,395
for the raid to pass.
36
00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,830
And then I came to England,
to boarding school.
37
00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:05,552
Because my parents had split up,
38
00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,956
I was able to come and go
as I pleased.
39
00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,310
My father pulled himself up
by his own intelligence.
40
00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,194
He had a very big ethos of...
"You study!"
41
00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:22,839
Playing on the railways, going into
people's houses, a bit of robbing...
42
00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:28,270
I was living with my gran
and her sister and her sister-in-law.
43
00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:30,390
So it was like three old ladies.
44
00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,149
I often think about my parents
and how I must have felt about it.
45
00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,509
Cos it was like being sent away.
46
00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,712
I think I definitely have
a built-in self-preservation thing.
47
00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,911
I just went straight
to the hear of the matter,
48
00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:48,192
Which was, "Forget about your parents
and deal with this."
49
00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:21,230
Authority is supposedly
grounded in wisdom,
50
00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:26,593
but I saw from an early age that
it was only a system of control.
51
00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:28,710
It didn't have any inherent wisdom.
52
00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:34,153
When I went to see a concer,
I'd be like...checking it all out.
53
00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:38,079
I was checking out what the drummer
was doing, the guitarist,
54
00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,475
if they were gelling together,
55
00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:45,435
if they had any kind
of telepathic communication.
56
00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,234
I remember having a birhday party
and my mum said,
57
00:05:49,280 --> 00:05:51,316
"You can have a party
for your friends."
58
00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,194
We were sitting at the table and
I looked up and there's my brother
59
00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,993
and I looked around
and every face was black.
60
00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:02,192
And that's what made me realise
there's something different here.
61
00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,835
Then The New York Dolls came along,
and they were everything.
62
00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:10,237
They were incredible, the way
they looked, their whole attitude.
63
00:06:10,280 --> 00:06:12,669
They didn't care about anything.
64
00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,918
They were just more...
a group that was more about style.
65
00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:21,954
I suppose when I was about 17,
I stared wondering about...
66
00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:27,399
Well, this is not really my story -
even though it was in one way,
67
00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:29,271
because that was my background.
68
00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:35,634
I quickly realised that you either
became a power or you were crushed.
69
00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:02,471
I went to art school
because I wanted to be a painter.
70
00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,318
That was how I thought
you got into bands and stuff.
71
00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,989
The last resort
of malingerers and bluffers
72
00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,589
and people who don't want
to work, basically.
73
00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:16,474
I didn't really meet that many
musicians. I was disappointed really.
74
00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:20,149
It was one way
I could excel in the classroom.
75
00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,634
I'd have kids coming up to me
and they'd go,
76
00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,877
"Oi, Paul! If you don't draw this
for me, I'm gonna beat you up,"
77
00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:27,319
or whatever, you know??
78
00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,635
They weren't teaching us
to draw an object,
79
00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:31,671
they were teaching us
to make a drawing
80
00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,188
that looked like
We knew how to draw the object.
81
00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,071
I was doing it for the grant really.
82
00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,112
Cos you'd get that and then
you could buy more equipment.
83
00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,675
Maybe the ar school thing
had messed me up too much already.
84
00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:44,073
I just thought,
85
00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:48,352
"I can't see myself for the rest
of my life doing this stuff.
86
00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,914
"I've gotta do something
a bit more exciting."
87
00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:01,078
I wasn't in any choir, I didn't learn
any instrument, nothing.
88
00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:02,997
But we were fervent listeners.
89
00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,272
Taking in music... It was before
I had any discrimination.
90
00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,153
It seemed to be a mystical world
where only...
91
00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,114
mythical beings could actually play.
92
00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,755
We used to have
a careers officer at school.
93
00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,110
I honestly did go in there and say,
"I wanna be in a band."
94
00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,709
It wasn't like no creative choice.
95
00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,150
You know what I mean?? It wasn't like
a vegetarian option on the menu.
96
00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:30,998
When I managed to get some chords
together...
97
00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:33,793
I was chuffed.
98
00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:39,590
In '74, it did seem
like life was in black and white.
99
00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:44,395
There were rows of buildings bought
up by the council and left to rot.
100
00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:46,556
And that's what gave birh
to squatting.
101
00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,273
If we hadn't had the squats -
A, for a place to live,
102
00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,949
and B, we could set up a rock
'n' roll group and practise in them.
103
00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,912
The first time I met Mick,
I went into this room
104
00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,270
and there's these four guys
standing around.
105
00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,710
And Mick's hair was really...
It was like this -
106
00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:04,637
Iittle eye and nose looking through.
107
00:09:04,680 --> 00:09:07,717
He looked so stunning
that we said, "Can you sing?? "
108
00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:12,072
And then he said, "Try this song,"
and it was a Jonathan Richman song,
109
00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:14,759
Which I was completely unaware of,
and they said,
110
00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,759
"Oh, just sing 'radio on'"
or something. So I did.
111
00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:23,157
I just ranted it non-stop
and that was the end of that.
112
00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:31,354
The 101ers had been playing
for about two years
113
00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:36,428
and by the time we reached Thursday
night at the Elgin we were flaming.
114
00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:37,993
The place used to be packed.
115
00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:43,239
What I remember is glasses smashing,
fighting, dogs running around.
116
00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:47,910
I remember going to Mick's flat and
he was trying to show me this E chord
117
00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,349
that went this way and went that way.
118
00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,313
And after about an hour of complete
frustration on both sides
119
00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,716
We decided to get hold of a bass.
120
00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:02,072
I spent like a year in the bedroom
just playing along with records.
121
00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:03,519
That's how I learnt.
122
00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,150
I thought rather than
make it a hard job,
123
00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:11,433
I'd get stickers and write A, B, G
and stick them on, and it was fine.
124
00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:13,835
Mick would say G
and I'd go, "There's G."
125
00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:15,632
"Up an octave, Mick...?? "
126
00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,474
It was very much
Malcolm had the Sex Pistols
127
00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,080
and Bernie was gonna go out
and get a group.
128
00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,476
He was a really interesting guy,
Bernie, and he had a lot to say,
129
00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:34,593
and we just sort of
struck up a relationship.
130
00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:42,797
And then we saw Joe - the 101ers -
play the Nashville with the Pistols.
131
00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,877
Five seconds into their first song
132
00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:51,153
I just knew we were yesterday's
papers, I mean, we were over!
133
00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:58,038
That was the moment when we realised
that Joe was the best guy out there.
134
00:10:58,080 --> 00:10:59,877
I think we needed a fresh input.
135
00:10:59,920 --> 00:11:05,836
And seeing Joe I think it crossed
all our minds about nicking him.
136
00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:10,795
Bernie and Keith went to see him play
at the Golden Lion in Fulham,
137
00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,355
and that's when they made the offer:?
138
00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,517
"We're getting it together,
do you want to join us?? "
139
00:11:17,560 --> 00:11:20,836
And he came up to the dressing room
after the show and went,
140
00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:24,236
"Hey, come with me.
I want you to meet some people."
141
00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:29,308
I said, "OK." We went to Shepherd's
Bush to a squat on Davis Road
142
00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:33,911
Where Mick Jones and Paul Simonon
were waiting in a room.
143
00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,032
We gave him 48 hours
to kind of make his mind up.
144
00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,914
I thought about it for 24 hours and I
rang him back and said, "OK, I'm in."
145
00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:16,309
"Complete control" was
one of Bernie's favourite phrases.
146
00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,435
He said to us that,
"I've gotta have complete control."
147
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,113
I first saw Mick and Paul
in Lissen Grove labour exchange.
148
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:46,397
I was queuing up to get dole.
149
00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,750
He definitely caught us looking
at him and he was a bit worried.
150
00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,439
He looked like he thought
he was gonna be done over.
151
00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,869
I could see them staring at me
152
00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,390
and I didn't realise they'd seen
the 101ers the previous weekend.
153
00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:03,116
For that moment he looked really
timid and he was in terror it seemed.
154
00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,391
I just ignored them, got my dole.
155
00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:12,117
And I was expecting them to tangle
With me on the way out to the street.
156
00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:14,799
We were looking on in awe, really.
157
00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,355
And then later he said
that's not what he was getting.
158
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,870
Well, I thought I'd punch Mick first
cos he looked thinner.
159
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,388
And Paul looked a bit tasty.
160
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:31,233
So I thought I wouldn't... I thought
I'd smack Mick first and then leg it.
161
00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,032
We were nervous. Well, I was anyway.
162
00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,436
And he came in and we went
into this little tiny room.
163
00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,677
It was really small and we all
sat around with our guitars.
164
00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,110
And we went like,
"This is one of ours, right??
165
00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,994
"One, two, three, four...
I'm so bored with you!"
166
00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,874
I said, "Never mind all that.
Let's write it now.
167
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:55,672
"I'm so bored with the USA."
168
00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:57,676
USA!
169
00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:59,870
And he went, "I didn't say that.
170
00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:02,992
"It's about my girlfriend -
I'm So Bored With You."
171
00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,830
We went to an ice cream parlour
in Edgware Road
172
00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:24,237
and wrote "I'm So Bored With The USA"
on the window with the ice cream.
173
00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,589
We were always taking about how
there was too many MacDonald's.
174
00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,837
Although we'd been brought up
on American TV shows and all that.
175
00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,111
There was still too much
of an American influence.
176
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,674
That was really
What the song was about.
177
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:51,029
The day that I joined The Clash was
very much...back to square one.
178
00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:52,991
Year zero.
179
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,953
He didn't want to do any of this
stuff. He wanted a clean break.
180
00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:03,591
We were almost Stalinist in the way
that you had to shed all your friends
181
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:08,350
or everything that you'd known, or
every way that you'd played before.
182
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,473
So we were really going through
the motions of...
183
00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,592
just getting the unity between us.
184
00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:17,312
It was Bernie that...
185
00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,195
told us to write about what we knew.
186
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,834
Mick Jones lived
in a tower block with his granny.
187
00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,714
You looked down on the Westway and
wondered what'll happen to your life
188
00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:31,876
and your town and your country.
189
00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:36,277
Say, like, Paul looking in the paper,
"What about career opporunities?? "
190
00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:40,074
I mean we were trying to grope
in a socialist way
191
00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,590
towards some future
Where the world might be
192
00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:45,949
Iess of a miserable place than it is.
193
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:50,551
Tower blocks and urban alienation
and disaffected youth and all that.
194
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,556
That all came from somewhere real.
195
00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,798
I don't know why it was called
Rehearsal Rehearsals,
196
00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,832
but I always thought
it was like kind of a Jewish thing.
197
00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,155
Where you going??
Rehearsal Rehearsals.
198
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,838
There was like a one bar heater.
199
00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:21,113
So I spent a lot of evenings with Sid
huddled over it, just gobbing on it.
200
00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,393
We had this jukebox which we put
all our favourite records on,
201
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,399
Iike Pressure Drop
and Two Sevens Clash,
202
00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,556
MPLA, by Tapper Zukie.
203
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,669
We used to play those records
in rehearsal sometimes.
204
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:46,358
It can't be stressed how great
The Ramones first album was
205
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:48,436
to the scene in London.
206
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:50,516
It was simple enough
to be able to play.
207
00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:55,076
Me and Paul would definitely
spend hours, days, weeks
208
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,429
playing along to the record.
209
00:16:58,600 --> 00:16:59,999
Paul was learning the bass.
210
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,874
I wanted to be the one that jumped up
and down and throws his arms around.
211
00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,434
Mick had already played really great
212
00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:11,235
and I could hack in there, and we
didn't have a drummer really.
213
00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,593
I don't think Terry was officially
hired or anything,
214
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,155
he just had been playing with us
and was one of the best drummers.
215
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,431
They had something different.
I didn't paricularly like them.
216
00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,916
But there was something about the way
they did things that said,
217
00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,599
"We mean business.
Nothing's going to stop us."
218
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,757
Terry Chimes was a bit freaked out
by our...
219
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:41,796
kind of lunatic...overboard...
Stalinist-type behaviour.
220
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:46,072
We used to have a lot of political
discussions about...
221
00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:49,590
you know, our lives
and things that affect us.
222
00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:54,953
And then Bernie helping us like
to realise what we were about.
223
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:59,755
I think that concerned Terry
because, you know, we'd say,
224
00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,473
"Well, what'd you wanna do
if you had some money?? "
225
00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:07,071
He'd got into music so he could get
a Lamborghini spors car.
226
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:10,669
I don't remember the Lamborghini, I
think it was an E-type Jag, actually.
227
00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,996
The point was I wanted one kind
of life and they wanted another...
228
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,429
"Why are we working together?? "
229
00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:23,235
The Clash came from just looking
at the Evening Standard really.
230
00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:28,400
And it just sort of... It had a bit
of style, flashness to it.
231
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,752
And, you know, I suggested it
and everybody liked it.
232
00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,837
It describes our sound.
233
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:40,510
We were like sticks of dynamite,
we could go off at any minute.
234
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:45,872
The line-up at this point - the first
gig would be Terry Chimes on drums,
235
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:50,436
Paul Simonon, Mick Jones,
myself and Keith Levene.
236
00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,553
Keith's approach was always
from another angle to Mick's.
237
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,149
And it really made
an interesting sort of sound.
238
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,478
keith left because he couldn't
be bothered to come to rehearsals.
239
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,195
And then I think Joe said, "Well,
don't bloddy come at all, then!"
240
00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,710
Bernie used to say to me, "Paul,
you stand furher back over there."
241
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:11,193
I used to ignore him.
242
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,391
I said, "Well,
not if I'm gonna be Pete Townshend."
243
00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:16,271
I had to stick up the front.
244
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,278
I suppose, in some ways,
when Keith left,
245
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,835
that was probably quite handy
for me in one way
246
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,030
cos then it meant I had my spot.
247
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,673
You had to be in league with each
other cos there were so many enemies.
248
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,989
The moment we walked on stage
I felt like I was in the living room.
249
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:41,678
I felt that comforable.
250
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,109
And, you know,
things would go a bit wrong.
251
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,232
I just remember
We had a tune called Listen
252
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:48,679
Where the bass line went...
253
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:54,756
And that was the first time
I went on stage.
254
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,030
Paul being very nervous, he went...
255
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:05,835
until we all fell down laughing
on the stage
256
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:07,279
cos we didn't know when to come in.
257
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,151
I just wanted to jump around a bit.
258
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,670
Somebody wrote in the Melody Maker -
we were all thrilled - but they said,
259
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:18,589
"We saw this group Clash up
in Sheffield and they were rubbish."
260
00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:24,352
Home-made and do-it-yourself
expressive.
261
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,597
I got some gloss paint
and got my shoes
262
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,189
and just sort of splashed a bit here
and there and it looked pretty good.
263
00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,913
I took it a stage furher,
I got this black shir,
264
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,952
did a bit on that
With a different paint.
265
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,676
It was all being aware of your
textures and all that arty stuff.
266
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,870
Mick and Paul were really, like...
267
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,674
they had dyed hair and all the things
we associate with punk.
268
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:52,475
There were sort of brass stencils
and you could clip them together.
269
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,957
And we used those to spray on
lettering...whatever.
270
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,468
And it became
sort of a Rauschenberg thing.
271
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,318
You know, like picking up things
from album covers -
272
00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:06,239
Iike "heavy manners" and "heavy-duty
discipline" and all that.
273
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,353
Those were the things we picked up -
as well as lyrics from our songs.
274
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,073
And just transferred them
onto the clothing.
275
00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:14,792
It gave people a bit of a shock
276
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:20,119
when you walked down the street
With "hate and war" on your shir.
277
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,391
Like trousers, like brain.
278
00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:29,911
That was the difference between
the flared look from the '60s
279
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:36,195
and the new look which was Mod -
fast and trim and going places.
280
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,752
Once I was being chased
by some teddy boys
281
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,554
and one of them whacked me over the
back of the head as I was fleeing.
282
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:45,989
You could tell a mile off
what people were into.
283
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:50,318
The thing with The Clash is
We didn't have any shop to rely on.
284
00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:52,999
Malcolm who was in charge
of the Pistols had
285
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,838
Too Fast To Live, Too Young To Die
and then Let it Rock
286
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:57,029
and then it was called Sex.
287
00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:01,278
The Pistols had it already sewn up
for them...Iiterally.
288
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,471
The second gig we did was a special
gig at Rehearsal's,
289
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,513
a special "invited only"
private affair.
290
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,552
Bernie organised it
to play to the journalists
291
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,034
and the movers and shakers of London.
292
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:19,632
We all realised that we needed
to cut a unified look on stage.
293
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,113
Just up the road
from the rehearsal room
294
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,391
was the people
that Bernie used to spray cars.
295
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,433
So we went to them and they sprayed
the guitars, the amps...
296
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,676
the jackets, the ties,
the shirs, the shoes.
297
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,752
We came out and we must have
looked fairly striking...
298
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,109
if not somewhat ridiculous.
299
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:45,119
We had all these barber chairs
and these lovely lilac curains.
300
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,358
The writers kinda knew who we were
and they were like modern writers -
301
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,231
John Ingham and Caroline Coon.
302
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,317
Paul's mural was all lovely car dump.
303
00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:59,070
They were people who stuck their head
above the parapet, really,
304
00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:01,680
in order to publicise punk rock.
305
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:06,555
I think that they made some of the
most exciting, vital rock music ever.
306
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,750
And cerainly made it
impossible for me
307
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,189
to ever listen
to any rock music again.
308
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,631
Mark P stared Sniffin' Glue,
Which was like the first fanzine
309
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:17,875
and it was followed
by a million others.
310
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:19,751
That was a really great scene
311
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,759
because there was
like punk criticism of the punk acts.
312
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:25,756
We do it how we want to do it.
313
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,678
If that's not good enough,
we'll forget it.
314
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,110
It really seemed
and felt like the last word.
315
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,277
And 20 years down the line,
I sort of feel that they were.
316
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,435
The Clash put the boot
into ageing rock millionaires
317
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,951
whose music and lifestyle
have been dominant for so long.
318
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,911
It's got nothing to do
With them any more.
319
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:48,678
When Rod Stewar gets up there
320
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,553
and stars like going on
With his string orchestra,
321
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,431
it's not what you feel like.
322
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,710
You gotta have music
what you feel like.
323
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,115
Otherwise, you go barmy, don't you??
324
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,470
There just has to be new groups
and that's what you got.
325
00:24:03,360 --> 00:24:07,035
The gig didn't star till about
midnight on Sunday night.
326
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:08,957
I had to sit there the whole day
327
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,072
watching equipment
that was stashed under the stage.
328
00:24:12,120 --> 00:24:15,829
That was to make us
completely knackered.
329
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,553
I couldn't understand
Why we sounded so awful on stage
330
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,716
and then the Pistols
sounded fantastic.
331
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,752
I suppose they were a bit
scared of us, probably.
332
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:29,474
We were pretty done over when Charles
Shaar Murray wrote in the paper,
333
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,988
"The Clash are one
of those garage bands
334
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,793
"that should be swiftly returned
to the garage
335
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,037
"with the doors locked
and the motor left running."
336
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:44,398
And from that review we got the idea
for the song Garageland.
337
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,915
It went on all day and all night.
They couldn't control it.
338
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:07,188
The Grove burned.
339
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,960
In London every year
they have a carnival
340
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,471
that was stared
by the Jamaican immigrants to the UK,
341
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,115
possibly about '57, '58.
342
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,912
In that summer of '76,
which was very hot,
343
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,234
there had been some very heavy police
pressure on the black community.
344
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,151
Me and Joe went down there
with Bernie
345
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,273
and we were on the Westway checking
out all the sound systems and stuff.
346
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,835
And a conga line of policemen
came through the crowd.
347
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:47,556
Next minute paper cups were being
lobbed over and then cans.
348
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:52,435
We were there at the very first throw
of the first brick.
349
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,119
Next minute
there was police everywhere.
350
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,390
And they literally just charged.
351
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,398
All hell broke loose...
and I mean hell.
352
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,194
The crowd pared,
We were pushed onto a wire netting.
353
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,357
Bernie's glasses went over there
and I was over here
354
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,277
and Joe was chucked upside down.
355
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,390
This was one time where people went,
356
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,034
"We've had enough
and we're going to say so now!"
357
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,995
And that's what gave rise
to the song White Riot.
358
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,474
Because we participated in the riot,
359
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,308
but I was aware all the time
that it was a black people's riot,
360
00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:28,511
i.e. they had more of an axe to grind
361
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,997
and they had the guts
to do something physical about it.
362
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:56,074
It was a moment of... I don't know,
I just sort of felt relieved.
363
00:26:56,120 --> 00:26:59,351
Especially when you held that brick
and you lobbed it.
364
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,595
And I remember Joe and me...
This car had been tipped upside down
365
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,076
and me and Joe were trying to light
the car to set it ablaze.
366
00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:19,510
It's one thing to say, "Right, let's
burn the cars and burn the ghetto,"
367
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,518
but you try and set a car alight.
368
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,749
And this big fat woman was screaming,
369
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,633
"Oh, Lord,
they're going to set the car alight!"
370
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,399
And, like, the wind was blowing out
the Swan Vestas.
371
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,749
I couldn't get
anything going on this car.
372
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,155
It was just a comedy, some of it.
373
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:37,997
But it was a hell of a day.
374
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:44,157
Bernie was really keen
on using some of that imagery
375
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,350
for albums or posters or whatever.
376
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,716
Me and Bernie used to spend a lot
of time looking at album covers,
377
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,513
especially the Jamaican ones.
378
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,358
That's the ones we really got
a lot of influence from.
379
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:03,110
One that was really popular with us
was Screaming Target - Big Youth.
380
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:09,235
Visually, very exciting,
as well as musically...explosive.
381
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,712
Police And Thieves was just ringing
out all over the town.
382
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,479
We decided to try and cut a version.
383
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,153
It hasn't been said enough,
Mick Jones' talent as an arranger,
384
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,794
the way he just told me to go
like that...
385
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,434
and then kill it, and then he'd go...
386
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,955
When I listen to Julian Irvine today,
I think
387
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:48,233
what a bold brass neck
We had to try and attempt that.
388
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,396
By rights they should have said,
389
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,989
"You heathen man, you ruined
the works of Jah, you know?? "
390
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,634
But they were hip enough to realise
391
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,672
we'd brought
our own music to the party.
392
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,636
These Americans were invited down
to see the Sex Pistols.
393
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,033
They saw us,
394
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,117
and then went home thinking
that they'd seen the Pistols.
395
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,720
And they said,
"Yeah, it was a really great show.
396
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,035
"I didn't know
you had an extra guitarist."
397
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,595
And obviously, it must have been a
bit difficult for Americans to say,
398
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:20,631
"You've just seen the wrong group."
399
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:25,879
I suppose it was historically great
cos of Siouxsie and the Banshees
400
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,549
With Sid Vicious on the drums playing
and what have you.
401
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:37,911
Firstly, they came up, a few teddy
boys, and offered the sound man 5p.
402
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,589
And they gave him 5p,
and he said, "What's that?? "
403
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,279
And they said, "It's your fare home."
404
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:51,637
We was playing on stage
and this mad person jumped on stage,
405
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,309
and I thought, "Who's this?? I'm gonna
have to kick 'em off the stage."
406
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,316
And it turned out to be Patti Smith.
407
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,478
The whole stage
Was like all twinkling.
408
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,353
It was glass - all the bottles
that were lobbed on the stage.
409
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,152
That's why we moved around so much.
410
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:11,397
Bernie Rhodes had hung around with
Guy Stevens a lot in the sixties.
411
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,476
I think it was Bernie
Who suggested working with Guy.
412
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,229
The results were
kind of disappointing somehow.
413
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,478
Cos we had quite an energetic unit
and it sounded very flat.
414
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,829
I remember the engineer
going on about Joe,
415
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,350
that he's got to mind his Ps
and Qs when he's singing the songs.
416
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,278
Shorly after that, Terry Chimes
announced he was quitting.
417
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,471
We must have tried every drummer
that then had a kit.
418
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,715
I mean, every drummer in London.
419
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:39,631
I think we counted 205.
420
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,877
And that's why we were lost
until we found Topper Headon.
421
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,118
We hardly did any shows, we just sort
of travelled on this coach.
422
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,597
I think only nine gigs
out of 30 were left.
423
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,518
We weren't going to play a gig
Where the Pistols were cancelled
424
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,391
cos they had sworn on television.
425
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,556
And then it just kind of exploded.
426
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,239
You know, what with the Grundy show.
427
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,555
And The Damned decided
to play a gig anyway
428
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,637
and that caused the first rift
between the punk groups.
429
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,830
But it really put punk on the map.
430
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:44,158
Every truck driver and builder
and your grandma and your uncle
431
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,634
knew what punk rock was now about.
432
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:53,555
This was the first club for punk
groups and their followers.
433
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,718
We agreed to kick it off on...
I think it was New Year's Day.
434
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,434
It was a good place to hang out.
435
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,871
And there was also a punk-rasta
interface because...
436
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,355
the DJ at the time was Don Letts.
437
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,552
He would play a lot of reggae records
438
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,434
that we hadn't had any chance
to come across.
439
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,317
That gave us a lot of new
information.
440
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:36,233
That rasta-punk crossover
was like really crucial.
441
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,717
The whole scene would have been
piffle without that really.
442
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,718
Cos it...
Yeah, it was something else.
443
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:46,519
I remember thinking,
444
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,951
"Well, that's nice for you, but we
Were never your toy to begin with."
445
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,072
It didn't matter
Who we were signed to or anything.
446
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:58,193
I think we were probably outside
the Polydor building in a taxi.
447
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,711
At the last moment Bernie said,
"Right, we're going to Soho Square."
448
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,354
And within moments we signed to CBS.
449
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,277
Maurice Oberstein was there.
450
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,437
But it was only thanks to him that...
451
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:14,393
He was prepared to stick his neck out
and sign one of these punk groups.
452
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,956
It was so fast I guess Bernie
couldn't think of, you know...
453
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,230
a big stunt to celebrate it.
454
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,317
All that was needed from us
was to sign the damn thing.
455
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:30,438
They weren't going to sit down
and talk about Clause 95B to us.
456
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,357
I guess Bernie went off
to bank the cheque.
457
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:37,952
We signed for $100,000. At the time,
that seemed like a forune.
458
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:42,551
But later I found out what we thought
was a five-record deal,
459
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:48,152
in fact, in the small print -
like in every corny story -
460
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,191
it was in fact a ten-record deal.
461
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,835
I remember for days after
me and Joe walking up the street
462
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,917
and deliberating over
the content of the songs.
463
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,351
Like, "Well, we can't sing
about career opporunities any more,
464
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,153
"because we've now got some cash,"
you know??
465
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:09,433
It needed to break out and reach
America and be kind of global.
466
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,712
And somebody had to
take that bull by the horns.
467
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:19,114
There was a lot of struggling
With our instruments at the star.
468
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,754
It was that struggling,
learning to play.
469
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,756
It made it alive, it made it real.
470
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,439
It made it something
that wasn't anything else.
471
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,877
One of the few things the punks
had for recreation
472
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:40,395
Was amphetamine sulphate, which was
value for money - its effects lasted.
473
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,834
I decided quite quickly
that the up wasn't worh the down.
474
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,550
We didn't write anything
in the studio. We just banged it out.
475
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,153
We'd all come from different aspects
476
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,033
of what is now known
as popular culture.
477
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:29,470
We obviously all immersed ourselves
in different pars of it.
478
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,159
I remember Mick pulling me over
and saying,
479
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,272
"Paul, I want you
to sing this bit about pensions,"
480
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,515
in, I think, Career Opporunities.
481
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,599
And I remember saying, "I'm not
bloody singing about pensions,"
482
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:43,949
and Mick was going,
"What do you mean?? "
483
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:45,911
"I'm not gonna sing about pensions."
484
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,599
We didn't want to get compromised
by the sound
485
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,474
and we'd also felt burnt
by that Guy Stevens demo session
486
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:54,795
Where it had come out kinda boring.
487
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:27,113
We knocked that album out...
I think in three weekends...
488
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:28,752
four-day sessions.
489
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,950
I like the first album best,
actually.
490
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,039
I like that kind of sound
that it has overall.
491
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,598
From the time I first
stared playing the drums
492
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,631
that's all I ever wanted to be.
493
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,717
There's a rule of rock 'n' roll
and it says
494
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:08,716
"You're only as good
as your drummer".
495
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,150
I told everyone
that I played for The Temptations.
496
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:16,671
But I never... I played for a band
supporing The Temptations.
497
00:37:16,720 --> 00:37:21,475
He could play funk, soul...
reggae didn't phase him.
498
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,719
We weren't supposed to come out
With something like that at the time.
499
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:58,676
We were a big fat riff group.
We were like rock solid beats.
500
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:02,718
Coming out with White Man
in Hammersmith Palais
501
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,753
was really unexpected and these
are the best moments of any career.
502
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,759
To be honest, I thought, "I'll join,
stay with the band for a year,
503
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,712
"get me name known
and then move onto something good."
504
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:15,796
This wasn't a time like today
505
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,913
when people play along
to DAT tapes or sequences or loops.
506
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:24,431
Everything coming off the stage
you've manufactured in that moment.
507
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:29,395
And it was really fast
and really hard and very loud.
508
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,399
To me it was kind of
so...so different,
509
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:37,194
I didn't have the foresight to
believe it would actually work.
510
00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:40,118
Finding someone
Who not only had the chops,
511
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:45,678
but the strength and stamina to do it
was just the breakthrough for us.
512
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,113
That was unheard of for punk rock
groups to play The Rainbow.
513
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:54,597
That was like the Madison Square
Garden, if you like, of London.
514
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,876
People ripping up seats, piling them
up on stage, stuff going all over.
515
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,352
For punk rock groups
to fill that joint,
516
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,119
it meant
there was no stopping it now.
517
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,675
It was like the dam burst.
518
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,834
Our attitude was, "What??
What do you mean, second album?? "
519
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:58,155
I remember going to Jamaica with Mick
for maybe a week or ten days
520
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,111
and we came up with some tunes.
521
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,037
Safe European Home, probably,
522
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,753
and Drug Stabbing Time,
I think was the other one.
523
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,554
I was really pissed off about that,
cos I really wanted to go.
524
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:29,397
And that...
525
00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:33,756
That really pissed me off.
526
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:38,715
I don't know how we weren't filleted
and served up on a bed of chips,
527
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,752
because me and Mick
Wandered around the harbour.
528
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,839
I think they mistook us
for sailors...merchant seamen.
529
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,597
We went down to score,
down to the seafront to score,
530
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,996
and I was like,
"Don't give this guy the money, Joe."
531
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,600
Joe was like,
"Yeah, we'll give him the money."
532
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:20,714
So I gave him the money
and watched him fly off...with wings.
533
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:24,719
And the guy just appeared
in the distance and he came back.
534
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:28,637
The record company had this idea
535
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,514
that they wanted somebody
to produce the record.
536
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,518
It wasn't even a decision
to bring in somebody
537
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,630
as far as the band was concerned.
538
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,514
I think it was like, "This bloke
Sandy Pearlman's going to come...
539
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:44,318
"and maybe produce."
540
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,590
Pearlman kept turning up
at our shows.
541
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:52,715
And Mick's schoolmate Robin wouldn't
let him in the dressing room.
542
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,196
He knocked on the door
just before we were going on stage
543
00:41:56,240 --> 00:42:00,518
and my mate Robin answered
and he said, "Hi, I'm Sandy,"
544
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:04,109
and he went, "Well, the band's going
on stage so you can't come in now."
545
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:05,832
He was like,
"No, you don't understand."
546
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,839
And he was told to leave the room
547
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,599
and then he stuck his head
back through the door...
548
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,471
And next minute it was, like, wallop,
549
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,717
and Sandy Pearlman's lying on the
floor with all blood coming down.
550
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,548
We all stepped over him
and went out on stage.
551
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,390
I must admit that whole situation
of recording that album
552
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,273
Was just the most boring
situation ever.
553
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:54,108
It was just so nitpicking... It was
such a contrast to the first album
554
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,550
and it just sort of
ruined any spontaneity.
555
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,636
We didn't realise how
the first album sounded weird
556
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,240
to American record company people.
557
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,238
They figured it wasn't fit
for human consumption.
558
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:33,553
The audience was already well into it
in America,
559
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,194
far more than the executives knew.
560
00:43:36,240 --> 00:43:40,756
And so they released the second album
and then the first album.
561
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:51,594
I think we were waiting
for Mick to come to rehearsal.
562
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:53,232
I walked up Camden High Street
563
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,272
with a rifle over me shoulder
and two pistols down me belt.
564
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,278
Being bored, we thought we'd go out
and try these air rifles.
565
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,677
And they went up on the roof and they
stared firing away at these pigeons.
566
00:44:03,720 --> 00:44:05,711
..missed and then
they came back again.
567
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:07,955
Took another shot
and they kept coming back.
568
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,072
They didn't know but they were
priceless racing pigeons
569
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:15,636
belonging to one of the mechanics
Who had a coop up there on the roof.
570
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:20,356
And next minute there are police
coming over the roof with guns going,
571
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:21,469
"Freeze!"
572
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:39,434
Whenever we were working - especially
touring, cos I used to love touring -
573
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,313
I just felt on top of the world
the whole time.
574
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:43,873
I loved every minute of it.
575
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,990
Live performances with The Clash
were never predictable.
576
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:57,510
It was just mayhem from the word go -
running, jumping, all action.
577
00:45:03,720 --> 00:45:06,917
You fall off the stage and they catch
you, you're happening.
578
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,999
If they don't - they make a space,
then that's it.
579
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,350
So sometimes I'd be going so fast,
I'd go off the end of the stage.
580
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:15,719
But I'd be cool.
581
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,836
You couldn't play a gig
in the punk years
582
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,678
that was not just covered in gob.
583
00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:32,349
From the moment you stepped behind
the amplifiers to the stage
584
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,358
you were covered in gob,
and it didn't matter who you were,
585
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,551
but especially good
if you could gob on The Clash.
586
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,919
Because we weren't playing along
to backing tapes, we could stop.
587
00:45:54,600 --> 00:46:00,516
When somebody's getting kicked by 30
other geezers, you've gotta stop.
588
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:02,073
Come on, you slobs.
589
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,396
There's no need to fight.
This is rock 'n' roll, not a fight.
590
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,989
There's an unwritten law,
if you turn around and go like that
591
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:12,237
and we'd all stop
and sort the ruck out
592
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,555
and then we'd kick it
right back in again.
593
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,110
We was on tour and I remember
me and Mick had an argument.
594
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,116
I don't know, I just snapped.
595
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,958
So I went to punch him
and I got him in the ear.
596
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:58,596
And then next minute, like Topper
and Joe are trying to hold my elbows
597
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,393
and I'm thrashing around
trying to get hold of Mick.
598
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,273
Joe and Topper took bruises
from my elbows.
599
00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:30,712
And then we ended up in the studio
where Mick's over there
600
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,355
and I'm over here and Joe
has to go back and forh to tell me,
601
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:36,152
"It's E now."
602
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:38,634
Go over there, come back,
"Oh, now it's C."
603
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:45,989
Help us to carry on
our fight against racism.
604
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,271
This is the official collection
for the Anti-Nazi League...
605
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:51,436
When we played Victoria Park,
606
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:55,109
that was the most people
We played to at that point.
607
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:59,153
Which was kind of good, cos a lot of
skinheads were getting into punk.
608
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:03,796
Only some of who were racist
and some of them were anti-racist.
609
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,870
About a month later,
Bernie was manouevered out
610
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,196
from the managerial chair
in a power struggle.
611
00:48:39,240 --> 00:48:43,631
I know him and Mick used to have
a serious falling out at times.
612
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,992
Whatever The Clash was, it was to do
with Bernie Rhodes and The Clash.
613
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:52,079
That's what I always maintained -
for better or for worse.
614
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,634
Between May and August
We'd come up with London Calling.
615
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:16,559
Then we went with Guy Stevens
into Wessex Studios.
616
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,512
Guy used to believe
that his job as a record producer
617
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:22,313
Was to install the maximum emotion
in the record.
618
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:26,239
He used to do this by a process
of direct psychic injection.
619
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:29,636
He used to inject his personality
into the musicians,
620
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,672
face-to-face,
as they were playing the master.
621
00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:35,188
He made me feel really at ease.
622
00:49:35,240 --> 00:49:38,550
And if I played wrong notes
he didn't care.
623
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:37,874
You'd like write, rehearse
and then record.
624
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:42,232
See the thing what I realised
was with being in a group,
625
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:44,589
you get money if you write songs.
626
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:47,438
You don't write songs,
you don't get any money.
627
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:59,113
Writing songs was a bit of a problem,
628
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,720
I suppose
because I always played reggae
629
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:06,157
and played reggae and played reggae.
630
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:09,078
So once I stared having ideas
for songs,
631
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,510
I'd throw a song in
and everyone would just go...
632
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:17,475
And if I had a bit more skill
on the guitar,
633
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:20,910
I could say, "No, I want it to be
a bit more rock, like this."
634
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:29,073
Many say that's our finest hour,
that double album London Calling.
635
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:35,996
There was a point where
punk was going narrower and narrower,
636
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,349
painting themselves into a corner.
637
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,709
We thought we could just do
any kind of music.
638
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:58,551
We were playing The Palladium in New
York and I remember doing the show
639
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,876
and we were sort of nearing the end
and nothing was complete -
640
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:03,273
I didn't feel satisfied.
641
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:05,914
I watched him, his guitar went up
instead of down,
642
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:10,033
he didn't do a jump, he stared
smashing the head end on the deck.
643
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:12,878
He stared coming towards me,
I stared backing off,
644
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:14,399
hence it being out of focus.
645
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:16,638
Just kept shooting.
646
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:18,318
I'd chucked me basses round before,
647
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:21,636
I didn't really have any respect
for them in the first place.
648
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,592
The moment I got a new bass,
I'd star getting a hammer
649
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,200
and I'd star smashing it around,
digging bits out...
650
00:52:27,240 --> 00:52:31,552
I did spend the remainder of the
night, after they'd seen the contacts
651
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:35,275
trying to persuade Joe that it
Wouldn't make a very good front cover
652
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:38,357
basically because it was too out of
focus. I was wrong.
653
00:52:57,040 --> 00:53:00,396
As soon as we'd finished the last
chord of it,
654
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:05,070
we left Bill Price to mix it
With Guy Stevens overseeing it.
655
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:07,236
We looked over in the control booth
656
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,636
and there's two grown men wrestling
over the mixing desk.
657
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:14,275
And we looked closer and it's like
Guy is wrestling with Bill Price.
658
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:18,598
He used to get so excited that
I used to hold him down with one hand
659
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:22,235
and try and carry on the manual mix
on the desk with the other.
660
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:49,228
When you've been into American music
for as long as I have
661
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:53,068
to go there...is a trip.
662
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:57,398
You're constantly watching out the
Window - it's like watching a movie.
663
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:02,835
To ride across the country, even
better on a bus, is another trip.
664
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:09,149
It was great to see it, cos
We'd always seen it through the TV.
665
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:11,794
It was fantastic.
666
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:14,870
I got endless inspiration from it.
667
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:19,832
After we'd been to America,
and we got off great there
668
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:22,758
and the audience was hip enough there
to get into us,
669
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:25,792
we came back to London
and we didn't have a manager
670
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:28,149
and we got into Blackhill Management.
671
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:30,475
They were
like a regular management group -
672
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,318
you go on tour, you record,
you go on tour, you record.
673
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:35,874
That was it - none of the excitement
that Bernie had.
674
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:43,079
As soon as they'd got a rough mix
down, we'd be like,
675
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:46,317
"Fresh tape on the reel.
Let's get the mikes out,
676
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:48,794
"cos we're gonna go like this
and this..."
677
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,070
And we'd just keep doing that
day and night.
678
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:53,475
And that's why it had to be
a triple album.
679
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:57,638
Even though it would have been better
as a double or single album or EP...
680
00:54:57,680 --> 00:54:58,999
Who knows??
681
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:02,999
The fact is we recorded all that
music in one spot at one moment.
682
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:06,350
And in one three-week blast,
for better or for worse.
683
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:07,799
That's the document.
684
00:55:08,720 --> 00:55:12,030
Sandinista! was originally
going to be a double album.
685
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:16,358
But what we decided we wanted
to bring out a single a month.
686
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:20,632
And the first one we put forward
was Bank Robber.
687
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:24,673
I think the head of the record
company said they didn't like it.
688
00:55:24,720 --> 00:55:27,188
They said it sounded like
David Bowie backwards.
689
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:44,518
We weren't happy with that.
690
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:46,835
It was hard enough making the records
691
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:50,270
without having to deal
With somebody who couldn't even hear
692
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:51,958
or didn't have the grace to go,
693
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,150
"OK, maybe
you've got something here."
694
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:17,510
People bought it and it did well,
but we wouldn't do Top of the Pops,
695
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:19,710
so they got Pan's People
to do it instead.
696
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:32,838
We were writing a lot of material
and making it up as we go along.
697
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:34,074
There was a lot of jamming.
698
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:38,033
I remember one day the only person
in the studio was Topper.
699
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:44,189
He'd stroll around, find a marimba or
something in a corner of the studio.
700
00:56:44,240 --> 00:56:46,708
He'd star jamming
all on his own on that,
701
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:49,433
and before you knew it,
we'd record some of it.
702
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:51,948
A few hours later the rest
of the band would turn up
703
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:54,560
and that would become another track
on Sandinista!
704
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:56,795
All of a sudden
We were up to track 35.
705
00:56:56,840 --> 00:57:00,913
Some of those takes are songs
being written as they're going down.
706
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:33,077
We always took music that was going
on around us on board
707
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:34,792
and made it par of our thing.
708
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:38,230
Mick Jones is the one who...
Again, he's the king arranger,
709
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:42,637
and he's bringing in the... He was
always looking to do the new thing.
710
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:44,989
It was really banging off
in New York -
711
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:46,871
rap was there, it was like 1980.
712
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:10,113
I was so gone with it that the others
used to call me Whack Attack!
713
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:12,435
I'd walk around with a beat box.
714
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:23,714
And WBLS was blasting
all over the city
715
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:27,992
and we just hooked on to some of that
vibe and made our own version of it.
716
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:31,077
We made an instrumental mix
of The Mag Seven
717
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:33,588
and WBLS played it to death.
718
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:37,269
You couldn't go anywhere in New York
that summer without hearing that.
719
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:38,799
And that was us...
720
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:43,156
Weirdo-punk-rock-white guys...
721
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:46,112
doing the kit.
722
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:06,794
That was when hip-hop
was just staring.
723
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:10,071
And that was like another signpost
of what was to come.
724
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:14,591
We fell in with some grafitti arists
and they made a big banner for us.
725
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:37,238
If someone had come in and gone,
"Let's play this with balalaikas,"
726
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:41,239
everyone would have gone, "Give me
the biggest balalaika," you know??
727
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:42,838
We were open about stuff.
728
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:46,793
Mick Jones bringing in the new sound
of New York and stuff
729
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:51,356
and Simo with his reggae thing
and me with my rhythm and blues thing
730
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:54,790
and Topper with all his soul chocks,
and we could just do that.
731
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:15,039
There was one point
When we went to Kingston, Jamaica
732
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:18,231
and that was great
because that's where I could...
733
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:20,316
At least I was there at last.
734
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:31,871
On the album,
the band brought in Mikey Dread.
735
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:35,629
And Mikey expanded the range of music
from rock 'n' roll
736
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:39,639
to what he had to offer
Which was genuine Jamaican dub.
737
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:41,318
And this was very exciting.
738
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:43,476
And I mean that.
739
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:47,195
I was sitting at a piano,
that lovely channel one,
740
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:50,232
completely out of tune piano
that just sounds...
741
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:54,270
It just has the sound of the town.
742
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:57,995
I was just sitting at the piano,
figuring out the chords
743
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:00,395
and Mikey Dread tapped me
on the shoulder,
744
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:03,477
and I said, "What?? "
And he said, "We have to run."
745
01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:05,875
And I looked in his eyes
and realised he was serious.
746
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:08,309
Previously, a month before, I think,
747
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:11,875
the Rolling Stones had been down
there using that same studio,
748
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:14,912
and they'd been dishing out money
all over the place,
749
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:16,916
you know, to keep everybody happy.
750
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:20,635
So the guys in the studio thought,
"Well, where's all the money?? "
751
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:24,275
The gunmen were gonna come down
and slice everybody up.
752
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:26,993
"Who do you think you are,
coming into Kingston
753
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:30,350
"without paying your way,
white rass clot?? "
754
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:32,550
And they were going to come
and chop everyone up.
755
01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:34,477
And we just had to leg it.
756
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:47,277
Sandinista! was three pieces of long
playing vinyl for the price of one.
757
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:52,440
I always saw it as a record
for people who were on oil rigs
758
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:58,237
or aric stations, that weren't able
to get to the record shops regularly.
759
01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:34,153
I can only say I'm proud of it...
wars and all, as they say.
760
01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:37,075
It's a magnificent thing.
761
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:40,078
And I wouldn't change it,
even if I could.
762
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:43,316
And that's after some soul searching.
763
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:46,477
There are cerain songs
I wouldn't have put on it,
764
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:48,238
but I'm one of many members.
765
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:53,229
Just from the fact it was all thrown
down in one go. It's outrageous.
766
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:55,236
And then released like that,
767
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:58,750
it's doubly outrageous,
it's triply outrageous.
768
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:04,113
After a couple of years
working with Blackhill,
769
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:06,674
Joe put his foot down
and I'm pleased he did,
770
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:08,631
cos he wanted Bernie back.
771
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:18,434
It was Bernie's idea to do seven
nights and really rock places out.
772
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:37,716
That's when I realised parly
the way the world works
773
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:41,196
because you can't march
into a city like New York
774
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:43,071
and take away the nightlife.
775
01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:45,395
I gotta get into the show,
you know what I mean??
776
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:46,919
I have to get into the show.
777
01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:51,432
We were doing residency
in Times Square, basically.
778
01:03:51,480 --> 01:03:54,950
We turned up and they said, "There's
too many people, close it down."
779
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:25,795
We were presented with a situation
that escalated beyond control.
780
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:26,875
We were on the news.
781
01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:30,959
"All you who wanted to see The Clash
at Bond's tonight, it's cancelled."
782
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:34,390
It was great, checking into New York
and you're on the evening news.
783
01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:36,510
That was fantastic.
784
01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:41,750
"They are punks, throwing out
the disco sound for something else."
785
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:45,796
Know Your Rights! Slate 75!
786
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:51,476
I think we've reached furher
than any original punk group.
787
01:04:56,120 --> 01:04:59,078
We were always ambitious as a group.
788
01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:06,828
I think they only need
to listen to the lyrics
789
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:08,518
to understand what the song's about.
790
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:11,114
We decided to play out,
791
01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:14,357
however many tickets had been put out
we were going to play.
792
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:18,029
We hope that they've got the news
behind the news.
793
01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:23,432
Because they really oversold it,
We ended up doing about 16 nights,
794
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:27,238
16 nights and a couple of matinees
or something.
795
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:33,196
Something strangely monotonous about
getting up, going to the same hall -
796
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:34,753
playing a gig.
797
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:39,833
Doing that 15 nights in a row,
it nearly killed us.
798
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:57,758
And 17 shows is...it's cushy,
you know,
799
01:05:57,800 --> 01:06:00,837
it's so easy
compared to being on the road.
800
01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:02,154
It wasn't hard work at all
801
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:04,509
and the good thing was
everyone thought it was,
802
01:06:04,560 --> 01:06:06,915
so you could like pretend
when you got out,
803
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:09,838
"Oh, yeah, I'll manage."
Gimme some more of that.
804
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:14,192
To go to New York
and take New York... that is great.
805
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:47,513
Just listen, OK??
806
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:03,439
We did a gig in Hong Kong
and then we went to Thailand.
807
01:07:03,480 --> 01:07:08,270
I was shooting what I knew to be the
album cover on the railroad tracks.
808
01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:11,835
Halfway through the shoot,
something just happened.
809
01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:14,599
Somehow they dissolved
in front of my eyes.
810
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:18,997
Topper's health at this point was
going. He got addicted to heroin.
811
01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:22,077
Looking back on it, you know,
I was out of control.
812
01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:25,908
If you try and imagine a group
and the drummer is falling apar,
813
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:29,032
then no matter what you put on top,
it's gonna fall apar.
814
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:34,996
What he was up to sort of made a
mockery of what the group was about
815
01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:37,110
and what Joe was writing about.
816
01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:38,559
He was saying,
817
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:42,832
"How can I write all these anti-drugs
songs with you stoned behind me?? "
818
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:48,318
In the jazz days, the saxophone
section would be addicted to heroin.
819
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:53,275
Each drug has a nature
and that surely suits horn playing,
820
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:56,915
cos you can float
over the music doing your thing.
821
01:07:56,960 --> 01:08:01,590
But it doesn't suit drumming, it's
like nailing a nail into the floor.
822
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:04,757
It's so precise -
the beat's gotta be there.
823
01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:08,713
So there was a lot of friction
building up over a period of time.
824
01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:13,033
And so...that was the beginning
of the end really.
825
01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:20,550
Although Bernie was 100% always
working on ideas for the group,
826
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:22,636
he wouldn't share with the rest of us
827
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:25,558
and so we didn't know
what was going on.
828
01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:27,556
Bernie said, "We're staring a tour.
829
01:08:27,600 --> 01:08:30,034
"Tickets in Scotland
are not selling that well."
830
01:08:30,080 --> 01:08:33,277
He didn't understand the nature
of the beast of The Clash
831
01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:35,550
is that we have a walk up, yeah??
832
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:37,670
We have a right big walk up.
833
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:40,632
And anybody, especially Bernie
should have known that.
834
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:45,629
He said, "Disappear or something. I
need an excuse to cancel the tour."
835
01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:47,193
Like a fool, I did.
836
01:08:47,240 --> 01:08:50,312
Joe did do that,
but then obviously couldn't stand it,
837
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:52,635
and actually vanished from everybody.
838
01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:56,912
I should never have listened to that.
You have to have some regrets.
839
01:08:56,960 --> 01:08:59,428
I didn't know where he'd gone,
what had happened.
840
01:08:59,480 --> 01:09:01,994
I went to France
and just dicked around for a while.
841
01:09:02,040 --> 01:09:05,510
And basically, he came back
and I was given an ultimatum.
842
01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:10,156
And the next thing that happened
was that Topper left.
843
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:13,078
I remember when the band sacked me,
844
01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:19,070
I promised them I'd stop, you know,
misbehaving and taking substances.
845
01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:22,192
You need to have everyone
firing on all cylinders
846
01:09:22,240 --> 01:09:26,028
if you're gonna take things
to new levels or new directions.
847
01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:30,232
And I felt a lot of guilt about that,
because if I'd kept my act together,
848
01:09:30,280 --> 01:09:35,400
I could see the band possibly still
being together today in a way.
849
01:09:35,440 --> 01:09:37,954
You can't have
any passengers on board,
850
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:40,389
because it slows the whole thing down
851
01:09:40,440 --> 01:09:44,638
and you slow it down, you lose spirit
and you grind to a shuddering halt.
852
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:48,434
I'd like to kind of apologise to them
for kind of letting the side down,
853
01:09:48,480 --> 01:09:50,710
for going off the rails.
854
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:56,238
But if it happened again, I think
I'd probably do the same thing.
855
01:09:56,280 --> 01:09:58,748
I'm just that sort of person,
you know??
856
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:05,353
Whatever a group is, it was the
chemical mixture of those four people
857
01:10:06,240 --> 01:10:08,037
that makes a group work.
858
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:12,596
And you can replace one with whoever
you like and it's never gonna work.
859
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:40,594
We were just so tired...
860
01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:44,519
tired of each other, tired
of the road, tired of the studio.
861
01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:45,834
We were burned out.
862
01:10:45,880 --> 01:10:49,316
We tried to mix it as we were going
along on that Far Eastern tour.
863
01:10:49,360 --> 01:10:53,797
We booked studios in Australia
and that's where we ground to a halt.
864
01:10:53,840 --> 01:10:58,436
All I remember really is having
this two-hour argument with Mick
865
01:10:58,480 --> 01:11:01,950
about the level of the bass
on Know Your Rights.
866
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:04,150
When you're struggling,
it holds you together,
867
01:11:04,200 --> 01:11:07,988
cos you're heading for some point,
"We're gonna make it. Come on, boys!
868
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:09,632
"Hang in there."
869
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:12,990
And then Rock The Casbah
went top five.
870
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:48,196
All this has gone down
in the space of, what, four years??
871
01:11:48,240 --> 01:11:52,711
We were in like the fifth year.
It had to have a toll on us.
872
01:11:52,760 --> 01:11:55,957
I think we should have had
maybe, like, a year off.
873
01:12:10,960 --> 01:12:15,590
Combat Rock went top five in America.
This was unheard of for us.
874
01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:19,758
Our placings had been 198 below that.
875
01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:23,031
And suddenly, it just all blew up.
876
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:57,113
It was fun to play Career
Opporunities in Shea Stadium
877
01:12:57,160 --> 01:13:01,676
cos who'd have thought four years
previously when we'd written it
878
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:04,029
that we'd be playing it
at Shea Stadium??
879
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:07,231
These are the things that makes the
world so interesting...
880
01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:09,635
and the music.
881
01:14:07,960 --> 01:14:12,397
The last gig was a huge gig.
It was like 200,000 people.
882
01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:16,398
It was the computer
generation's festival.
883
01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:19,192
I suppose, er...
884
01:14:20,840 --> 01:14:25,436
you don't want to hear about this
and that and what's up my arse, huh??
885
01:14:26,720 --> 01:14:28,358
Try this on for size.
886
01:14:41,600 --> 01:14:44,751
Like we were on stage,
that's how it was backstage.
887
01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:47,633
Like, Mick was all the way over there
and I was over here
888
01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:50,240
and Joe was in the middle,
and that's how it was.
889
01:14:50,280 --> 01:14:51,679
Me and Mick didn't talk.
890
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:02,719
There was a little scuffle
at the end,
891
01:15:02,760 --> 01:15:06,116
that was sort of symbolic
of the whole mayhem.
892
01:15:18,600 --> 01:15:22,559
I remember looking over
and seeing some bouncer hitting Mick.
893
01:15:23,520 --> 01:15:26,557
I just went over and stared laying
into this bloke's head
894
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:29,512
cos I thought it was unfair
cos Mick's like...
895
01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:31,232
He's not muscles or whatever.
896
01:15:43,840 --> 01:15:45,910
1984 and we were gone really.
897
01:15:46,800 --> 01:15:50,873
It was all over bar the...
brushing out the room.
898
01:15:51,840 --> 01:15:54,149
Gunfight at the OK Corral...
899
01:15:54,200 --> 01:15:56,589
or something's gonna happen.
900
01:15:56,640 --> 01:15:59,108
I didn't know personally
about self-control.
901
01:15:59,160 --> 01:16:01,674
I didn't know about that stuff
until much later.
902
01:16:01,720 --> 01:16:07,158
Me and Joe had talked about it
and got to the point where we said,
903
01:16:07,200 --> 01:16:11,159
"We're grown men.
I can't take any more of this."
904
01:16:11,200 --> 01:16:14,636
We lost communication
with each other.
905
01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:18,070
Even in the same room,
We were looking at the floor.
906
01:16:18,120 --> 01:16:19,951
Joe said,
"Mick, we want you to leave."
907
01:16:20,000 --> 01:16:25,711
And then Mick said to me,
"What do you say?? "
908
01:16:25,760 --> 01:16:27,591
And I said, "Well, yeah."
909
01:16:27,640 --> 01:16:29,437
You know??
910
01:16:29,480 --> 01:16:35,794
Mick was intolerable to work with
by this time. I mean, no fun at all.
911
01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:37,512
He didn't show up.
912
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:42,315
When he did show up, it was like
Elizabeth Taylor in a filthy mood.
913
01:16:42,880 --> 01:16:45,110
And he didn't want to go on tour,
914
01:16:45,160 --> 01:16:50,234
the perfect time to go on tour
When everything was moving up.
915
01:16:50,280 --> 01:16:55,798
I would say that one of Mick's
talents was not punctuality.
916
01:16:55,840 --> 01:16:59,310
He was fairly late most of the time.
917
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:04,634
But then, you know, talent's worh
waiting for, I think...
918
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:06,159
When all's said and done.
919
01:17:06,200 --> 01:17:11,991
I was just carried away, really.
I wish I had a bit more control...
920
01:17:12,040 --> 01:17:16,431
You wish you knew what you knew now.
921
01:17:16,480 --> 01:17:18,516
It only happens like that
in hindsight.
922
01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:20,869
It never happens like that
when it's going on
923
01:17:20,920 --> 01:17:23,195
cos things are going so fast
924
01:17:23,240 --> 01:17:27,552
you don't have time to step back
and take a view.
925
01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:30,239
And that probably explains some of
the moments
926
01:17:30,280 --> 01:17:37,834
when you didn't have
as much control...on yourself.
927
01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:41,634
Always wanting to interject,
you know, "And another thing..."
928
01:17:46,760 --> 01:17:49,877
We weren't parochial,
We weren't narrow-minded.
929
01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:53,232
We weren't Little Englanders.
930
01:17:53,280 --> 01:17:58,877
At least we had the suss to embrace
what we were presented with,
931
01:17:58,920 --> 01:18:02,629
which was the world
and all its weird varieties.
932
01:18:08,960 --> 01:18:13,078
In America or in Spain
or France or Sweden or Italy
933
01:18:13,120 --> 01:18:17,989
or Japan or Australia
or anywhere in the world but here,
934
01:18:18,040 --> 01:18:21,350
they really know
and appreciate The Clash.
935
01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:24,676
Whatever a group is it was the
chemical mixture
936
01:18:24,720 --> 01:18:27,518
of those four people
that makes a group work.
937
01:18:27,560 --> 01:18:30,279
That's a lesson everyone should
learn, "Don't mess with it!"
938
01:18:30,320 --> 01:18:32,356
If it works just let it...
939
01:18:32,400 --> 01:18:35,278
Do whatever you have to do
to bring it forward
940
01:18:35,320 --> 01:18:37,470
but don't mess with it.
941
01:18:37,520 --> 01:18:40,956
And like, we learned that...bitterly.
942
01:18:43,880 --> 01:18:46,678
If I could do it all again,
I wouldn't change anything.
943
01:18:46,720 --> 01:18:48,711
I think it was fine as it is.
944
01:18:48,760 --> 01:18:52,435
Who couldn't write good tunes
with such great lyrics??
945
01:18:52,480 --> 01:18:54,835
and, you know, fantastic drumming,
946
01:18:54,880 --> 01:18:58,509
and it was just great to be
With Paul who was just there
947
01:18:58,560 --> 01:19:00,915
probably from when I first met him...
948
01:19:00,960 --> 01:19:01,949
Bastard.
949
01:19:04,320 --> 01:19:07,278
We did our job and that's the story
and now we're gone.
950
01:19:07,320 --> 01:19:09,390
And that's it. That suits me fine.
84953
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