1 00:00:01,740 --> 00:00:02,740 you 2 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,120 Most of us don't question our sexual identity. 3 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:54,940 We know whether we're male or female. 4 00:00:56,740 --> 00:00:58,720 For others, it's not so simple. 5 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,580 This person is a transvestite. 6 00:01:04,540 --> 00:01:07,740 Transvestites are men with an obsession to wear women's clothes. 7 00:01:17,580 --> 00:01:22,000 My sister, who was six years my junior, was getting an incredible amount of 8 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:23,260 approval, love, and attention. 9 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:31,180 And I think I looked at this in a great deal and said, you know, maybe Mom and 10 00:01:31,180 --> 00:01:32,540 Dad are like a girl better than a boy. 11 00:01:35,060 --> 00:01:39,160 Mother's clothes were suddenly available, and I tried it. 12 00:01:41,900 --> 00:01:43,600 This person is a transsexual. 13 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:46,900 Transsexuals feel they were born into the wrong body. 14 00:01:47,320 --> 00:01:50,800 and are driven to change their sex permanently through surgery. 15 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:53,280 Why did you want to be a woman? 16 00:01:53,860 --> 00:01:57,600 I just knew I was a woman. It wasn't about wanting to be a woman. 17 00:01:58,260 --> 00:02:00,000 I felt that I was misplaced. 18 00:02:00,820 --> 00:02:03,940 In other words, the way my life developed, I knew that I was supposed to 19 00:02:03,940 --> 00:02:05,440 have been a woman and something went wrong. 20 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:09,259 I feel like I was born with a birth defect and I finally got it straightened 21 00:02:09,259 --> 00:02:10,259 out. 22 00:02:10,660 --> 00:02:13,400 This film looks at people living in a gender crisis. 23 00:02:16,270 --> 00:02:21,730 whose mind and body are in conflict, who must face every day with the question, 24 00:02:21,910 --> 00:02:23,910 what sex am I? 25 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,380 An ex-GI from the Bronx is back from Denmark, where physicians converted him 26 00:02:47,380 --> 00:02:48,198 into a woman. 27 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,540 Here are the first motion pictures of Christine Jorgensen, 26. 28 00:02:52,100 --> 00:02:56,620 High heels, smart feminine attire, and a friendly willingness to meet the press. 29 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,400 In 1952, George Jorgensen sailed from New York to Denmark. 30 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:05,320 A year later, he returned home a woman, Christine Jorgensen, the world's first 31 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:06,700 renowned transsexual. 32 00:03:07,300 --> 00:03:08,880 Christine, are you happy to be home? 33 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:10,680 Yes, of course. 34 00:03:11,850 --> 00:03:13,110 What American wouldn't be? 35 00:03:13,550 --> 00:03:17,630 I'm very happy to be back, and I don't have any plans at the moment. 36 00:03:18,050 --> 00:03:21,790 And I thank you all for coming, but I think it's too much. 37 00:03:22,330 --> 00:03:23,710 Fine, thank you very much. 38 00:03:24,290 --> 00:03:28,410 Now, more than 30 years later, twice engaged but never married, with an 39 00:03:28,410 --> 00:03:32,790 active career as an entertainer, author, and lecturer, Christine has no regrets. 40 00:03:33,610 --> 00:03:37,310 You were a young kid going to a foreign country. 41 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,420 to have a so-called sex change operation. 42 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,700 I didn't even know that the sex change operation existed. 43 00:03:44,260 --> 00:03:49,380 I knew they were doing research in the direction, but I wasn't sure how far it 44 00:03:49,380 --> 00:03:54,580 had gone, and even my doctors didn't. How did you have the courage to... I 45 00:03:54,580 --> 00:03:58,420 don't think it takes any more courage to do that than it would be a person who 46 00:03:58,420 --> 00:04:00,580 says, I'm riding in a wheelchair and I want to walk. 47 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:03,520 I don't think that's courage. I think it's need. 48 00:04:04,330 --> 00:04:08,710 Christine Jorgensen's story paved the way for other transsexuals. A barrier 49 00:04:08,710 --> 00:04:09,710 was broken. 50 00:04:10,470 --> 00:04:15,050 Today, most of us are only aware of transsexual celebrities like Christine. 51 00:04:15,950 --> 00:04:19,890 Dr. Richard Raskin caused controversy on the women's tennis circuit when he 52 00:04:19,890 --> 00:04:21,089 became Renee Richards. 53 00:04:22,410 --> 00:04:26,050 James Morris, a British journalist who had climbed Mount Everest, shocked the 54 00:04:26,050 --> 00:04:28,110 literary world when he became Jan Morris. 55 00:04:28,970 --> 00:04:31,910 Karen Ullane had worked as a pilot for 20 years. 56 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,860 After surgery, she filed a suit against Eastern Airlines to keep her job. She 57 00:04:36,860 --> 00:04:38,080 too became a celebrity. 58 00:04:38,540 --> 00:04:40,940 But very few of these people make headlines. 59 00:04:41,340 --> 00:04:46,060 There are, in fact, over 6,000 transsexuals living anonymously in the 60 00:04:46,060 --> 00:04:47,120 United States today. 61 00:04:49,020 --> 00:04:49,560 Kathy 62 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:56,260 is a 63 00:04:56,260 --> 00:04:57,460 26-year-old man. 64 00:04:58,420 --> 00:05:02,560 In just a few days, she will have major surgery at a Texas medical center to 65 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,840 complete the transformation from male to female. 66 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,340 Kathy's feminine appearance is the result of hormones and silicone 67 00:05:11,340 --> 00:05:14,960 implants. She's been living as a woman now for 18 months. 68 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,320 She's dancing in this club to earn the money for her sex reassignment surgery. 69 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,260 Not a person in the audience would suspect that Kathy is a man. 70 00:05:28,740 --> 00:05:32,020 Were you nervous when you went up for your first job? Oh, but of course. 71 00:05:32,860 --> 00:05:36,880 There I was in front of a bunch of men that were looking upon me as nothing but 72 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:37,880 a woman. 73 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,300 How does it feel knowing that you're up there turning on every man in the house 74 00:05:42,300 --> 00:05:43,300 and you're fooling them? 75 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,940 A satisfied feeling, and yet kind of a little giggle inside. 76 00:05:49,840 --> 00:05:53,900 These could have been the people that were making fun of me at one time, and 77 00:05:53,900 --> 00:05:55,660 here they are now enjoying me. 78 00:05:56,730 --> 00:05:59,690 I've got the last laugh, I guess you could say. 79 00:06:01,290 --> 00:06:05,990 Have you developed a way of living in your own world that cuts out a lot of 80 00:06:05,990 --> 00:06:07,270 the pain for you? 81 00:06:07,470 --> 00:06:11,270 Oh, yeah, you have to. You have to put that aside and go on with yourself. 82 00:06:12,030 --> 00:06:16,270 You have to not let anything stand in your way, especially in a predicament 83 00:06:16,270 --> 00:06:17,270 like this. 84 00:06:17,330 --> 00:06:21,190 So you just kind of build your own little dream world and live in it. 85 00:06:25,930 --> 00:06:28,190 Most transsexuals are rejected by their families. 86 00:06:28,830 --> 00:06:30,430 Kathy is one of the lucky few. 87 00:06:30,910 --> 00:06:34,410 Her mother has taken her first plane trip to see her child through the 88 00:06:34,410 --> 00:06:35,410 serious operation. 89 00:06:35,850 --> 00:06:39,670 She does not wish to appear on camera, fearful of repercussions in her small 90 00:06:39,670 --> 00:06:40,670 southern town. 91 00:06:42,130 --> 00:06:45,270 How did you explain this whole process to your parents? 92 00:06:45,730 --> 00:06:50,190 One visit at home, I just had to tell them, and my father just went off. 93 00:06:50,840 --> 00:06:54,800 So my mother finally calmed him down, and I just sat down with my mother and 94 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:56,640 tried to explain it the best I could. 95 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:10,880 It's still strange to her, still unusual. 96 00:07:11,540 --> 00:07:14,920 But I have faith in her. I'm sure she'll come through. 97 00:07:15,340 --> 00:07:17,320 She said, she said, that's my baby. 98 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:23,490 Yes. And I look up to her. I find her one of the most beautiful people that 99 00:07:23,490 --> 00:07:24,490 I've ever known. 100 00:07:25,290 --> 00:07:27,650 I enjoy my meal very much. 101 00:07:28,170 --> 00:07:30,650 I didn't know what a good cookie was. 102 00:07:30,870 --> 00:07:31,950 That was really good. 103 00:07:32,290 --> 00:07:35,110 Kathy and her mother are having dinner with Kathy's roommate, Mary. 104 00:07:35,870 --> 00:07:39,910 Mary is also a male-to-female transsexual. She had her surgery nine 105 00:07:39,910 --> 00:07:42,070 months ago in a Galveston, Texas hospital. 106 00:07:43,370 --> 00:07:45,270 Mary is a great support to Kathy. 107 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,660 Why don't I, like, clean the dishes and you, like, put them in the dishwasher? 108 00:07:53,140 --> 00:07:54,940 Okay. I know you're not very good at kitchen. 109 00:07:55,180 --> 00:07:57,760 I like your apartment very much. It's pretty. 110 00:07:58,180 --> 00:08:02,720 Well, it'll do until the right man comes along. 111 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:06,580 Kathy, what was your childhood like? 112 00:08:07,020 --> 00:08:11,540 It was fun. I had a happy one, but it just seemed like I liked feminine 113 00:08:11,540 --> 00:08:17,380 things, pretty things, all the things that anybody else didn't usually like. 114 00:08:18,740 --> 00:08:22,960 Kind of got a little hectic, you know, name-calling and such. Like what? What 115 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:24,080 kind of names did they call you? 116 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:25,920 Oh, Sissy, mostly. 117 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:27,920 That was the main one. 118 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:30,800 How did you feel? Was it painful for you? 119 00:08:31,300 --> 00:08:32,299 Very much so. 120 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,020 It hurt. It hurt real bad. 121 00:08:34,299 --> 00:08:37,200 I suffered long and hard. Thank you for cooking the dinner. You're welcome. 122 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:39,559 Stick around and help you finish it. 123 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:41,280 Can I help you? No, no. 124 00:08:41,659 --> 00:08:44,540 I'll get it. This is your holiday, and I want you to have fun. 125 00:08:45,020 --> 00:08:46,660 I just think that you're doing well. 126 00:08:47,020 --> 00:08:48,660 You really are. I could do better. 127 00:08:48,980 --> 00:08:50,840 But I think Kathy's going to do real good. 128 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,520 Do you? Yeah, we've had some real long talks about it. 129 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,300 But you do really feel, I mean, everything's natural and completed. 130 00:08:57,840 --> 00:08:59,660 For a while, I had my doubt. 131 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:04,320 And then about two weeks ago, we had a real heart-to-heart, knock-down, drag 132 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,800 -out, crying and screaming and yelling. 133 00:09:08,060 --> 00:09:13,380 Really? And at the end of it, I said, I'm just worried about you. You're my 134 00:09:13,380 --> 00:09:14,380 friend. 135 00:09:14,790 --> 00:09:18,170 And I want you to be happy, but I don't want you to do something that I don't 136 00:09:18,170 --> 00:09:19,170 think you're ready for. 137 00:09:20,070 --> 00:09:25,530 Don't worry about what other people think, because it's what you think. 138 00:09:25,990 --> 00:09:28,570 And if you're not ready, that's the worst thing you can do. 139 00:09:28,870 --> 00:09:33,350 And we talked a lot more, and I finally came to the realization that she is 140 00:09:33,350 --> 00:09:37,230 ready for it. It is so crucial. I mean, it's such a decision to make. She's 141 00:09:37,230 --> 00:09:38,230 ready. 142 00:09:38,390 --> 00:09:39,390 She's ready. 143 00:09:40,140 --> 00:09:45,280 Kathy has been away for several years, and I do get these pictures out and look 144 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:46,280 at them occasionally. 145 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:51,200 And I looked and I thought, yeah, I can see those little eyes. They're 146 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:55,240 beautiful, and look how sad they look. But see, I didn't notice that at the 147 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:57,400 time because we were a happy family. 148 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:03,460 Other than liking to play dolls and all with his sister, Glenn acted no 149 00:10:03,460 --> 00:10:05,680 different than any other child at all. 150 00:10:07,260 --> 00:10:11,120 In the seventh grade, names had been called, like queer. 151 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:17,520 And he came home crying, and he didn't know why. You know, why are they saying 152 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,060 this to me? And I said, well, honey, I don't know why. 153 00:10:20,860 --> 00:10:22,200 Yeah, I don't know why. 154 00:10:26,500 --> 00:10:31,740 As with most transsexuals, Kathy's struggle has been lifelong. 155 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:37,340 The confusion and pain begin in early childhood. Then comes the determination 156 00:10:37,340 --> 00:10:39,500 to change the body to fit the mind. 157 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,820 Surgery can only take place after completing a rigorous program demanded 158 00:10:44,820 --> 00:10:47,880 by the 40 reputable gender clinics in this country. 159 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,680 Kathy had psychiatric evaluation and counseling. 160 00:10:52,140 --> 00:10:55,440 Legal documents were changed to conform with her new identity. 161 00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:00,340 She successfully completed the real-life test, living and working as a woman for 162 00:11:00,340 --> 00:11:01,460 the past year and a half. 163 00:11:02,110 --> 00:11:06,090 She has taken large doses of female hormones, which she must continue for 164 00:11:06,090 --> 00:11:07,090 life. 165 00:11:11,470 --> 00:11:16,070 This operation is a well-established medical procedure performed by 166 00:11:16,070 --> 00:11:17,910 urologists and plastic surgeons. 167 00:11:18,350 --> 00:11:24,450 Over 250 operations take place each year at some 15 hospitals across the country. 168 00:11:25,030 --> 00:11:30,290 Nonetheless, most insurance companies will not cover the fee, the cost of 169 00:11:30,290 --> 00:11:31,290 Kathy's surgery. 170 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:41,640 I need you to read this over and see if you have any questions. 171 00:11:44,140 --> 00:11:48,160 In signing this release form, Kathy is giving the doctor permission to change 172 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:49,160 her sex. 173 00:11:49,460 --> 00:11:52,140 The operation will take from three to five hours. 174 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,300 Her testicles and most of her penis will be removed. 175 00:11:55,870 --> 00:11:59,850 The remaining tissue and skin will be shaped into female genitalia and a 176 00:11:59,850 --> 00:12:01,070 vagina will be constructed. 177 00:12:02,850 --> 00:12:05,130 Healing can take as long as six months. 178 00:12:06,010 --> 00:12:10,290 Once she's recovered, Kathy can experience sexual intercourse and orgasm 179 00:12:10,290 --> 00:12:13,370 as a woman. But surgery does not create internal organs. 180 00:12:13,630 --> 00:12:16,810 She will neither menstruate nor have the capacity to bear children. 181 00:12:17,890 --> 00:12:20,210 So I need you to sign right here. 182 00:12:24,430 --> 00:12:26,490 This operation is irreversible. 183 00:12:37,070 --> 00:12:41,030 We've heard other parents say that if their child did something like this, 184 00:12:41,050 --> 00:12:43,190 they would rather die than have their child. No. 185 00:12:43,750 --> 00:12:48,550 Now, I've been hurt, and my husband's been hurt, and we don't understand it 186 00:12:48,550 --> 00:12:50,490 all. But to me... 187 00:12:51,100 --> 00:12:55,700 I love both of our children, and my husband loves both of our children. And 188 00:12:55,700 --> 00:12:56,940 they're both special. 189 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:03,340 And I'm not the most excellent person in the world, nor is my husband. And as far 190 00:13:03,340 --> 00:13:08,600 as I feel, either one of our children, no matter where, or no matter what kind 191 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:12,980 of trouble they got into, that they could call home or come home. 192 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:14,940 Just come home. 193 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:16,240 That's the main thing. 194 00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:17,720 Just come home. 195 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:26,760 Kathy's surgery lasted five hours. 196 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:28,440 There were no complications. 197 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,760 What causes transsexualism? 198 00:13:34,060 --> 00:13:37,360 If you'd asked me ten years ago, I would have said it was a psychological 199 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:44,060 phenomenon. Some abnormality in rearing or family 200 00:13:44,060 --> 00:13:46,240 dynamics, etc., etc. 201 00:13:46,500 --> 00:13:49,400 I've come full cycle. I really believe it's a... 202 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:54,660 biologic and organic phenomenon from hormones a hormone dysfunction or a 203 00:13:54,660 --> 00:13:59,560 hormone imbalance yes the hormone imbalance but probably that occurs 204 00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:04,520 prenatally uh while the fetus is developing within within the mother the 205 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:08,320 hormones in the uterus while the baby is being formed may set some kids up to be 206 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:12,320 more vulnerable to transsexualism and then it will require something else in 207 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:17,320 early childhood to to kick it off what is the thing in early childhood is there 208 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,930 a common history We really don't know. We've investigated all these families. 209 00:14:21,430 --> 00:14:24,830 We find that these people come from many different kinds of families, so we can't 210 00:14:24,830 --> 00:14:28,910 point a finger of blame at the mother or the father or a certain trauma at any 211 00:14:28,910 --> 00:14:29,910 particular age. 212 00:14:30,390 --> 00:14:34,270 We sometimes think that the families are a little bit similar in giving the kids 213 00:14:34,270 --> 00:14:35,810 mixed messages about sexuality. 214 00:14:36,470 --> 00:14:41,010 For example, that you're a boy and that you ought to act masculine, but males 215 00:14:41,010 --> 00:14:44,530 are rude and they're abrasive and they're ugly and they're vicious and 216 00:14:44,530 --> 00:14:45,530 never be like that. 217 00:14:45,790 --> 00:14:48,050 And they give kids those kind of confusing messages. 218 00:14:51,130 --> 00:14:55,350 Unlike Kathy, Jody, who is 45, had some difficulty passing as a woman. 219 00:14:55,970 --> 00:14:59,970 But her six-foot frame and masculine features did not stop the yearning to 220 00:14:59,970 --> 00:15:00,970 change her sex. 221 00:15:02,990 --> 00:15:04,490 Why did you want to be a woman? 222 00:15:05,170 --> 00:15:08,930 I just knew I was a woman. It wasn't about wanting to be a woman. 223 00:15:09,530 --> 00:15:11,250 I felt that I was misplaced. 224 00:15:12,270 --> 00:15:15,270 In other words, the way my life developed, I knew that I was supposed to 225 00:15:15,270 --> 00:15:16,710 have been a woman, and something went wrong. 226 00:15:17,130 --> 00:15:20,210 I feel like I was born with a birth defect, and I finally got it 227 00:15:20,210 --> 00:15:21,210 straightened out. 228 00:15:22,790 --> 00:15:24,570 Jody is the father of three children. 229 00:15:25,170 --> 00:15:27,570 She had transsexual surgery three months ago. 230 00:15:28,150 --> 00:15:31,630 At that time, she and her second wife, Paula, had been married for eight years. 231 00:15:32,590 --> 00:15:33,770 Jody is now unemployed. 232 00:15:35,710 --> 00:15:36,710 Why are you moving? 233 00:15:37,810 --> 00:15:39,890 Well, because we ran out of money, basically. 234 00:15:42,170 --> 00:15:43,470 I don't know how to say it. 235 00:15:43,930 --> 00:15:49,410 Jody lost her job when she went for surgery in December, and my income isn't 236 00:15:49,410 --> 00:15:50,990 sufficient to support this operation. 237 00:15:52,350 --> 00:15:56,950 So we found a much smaller place in San Francisco. 238 00:15:57,350 --> 00:15:58,610 I think it'll be okay. 239 00:15:59,130 --> 00:16:04,450 The people I was working with wanted me to wait, and I had everything set up. I 240 00:16:04,450 --> 00:16:08,890 had it paid for. I had the date booked and the transportation arranged, and I 241 00:16:08,890 --> 00:16:10,190 just wasn't willing to change all that. 242 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,500 Paula, is it usual for the wife of a transsexual to stay in the relationship? 243 00:16:15,500 --> 00:16:17,140 I don't know. I'm the only one I know. 244 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,120 I'm not willing to say that there are none. 245 00:16:21,580 --> 00:16:26,920 I don't have time anymore to go off creating lifelong relationships. 246 00:16:28,820 --> 00:16:30,380 So that's why I stayed in this one. 247 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,880 Four months later, Jody is still unemployed despite 20 years' experience 248 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:39,100 as a computer analyst. 249 00:16:40,650 --> 00:16:42,830 I've got to figure out why I'm not getting a job. 250 00:16:43,090 --> 00:16:46,490 Maybe they think my mom addresses me funny or something. 251 00:16:49,310 --> 00:16:50,330 Look at that, Terry. 252 00:16:51,290 --> 00:16:53,690 Look at this. God, there's three, four columns. 253 00:16:55,750 --> 00:16:57,350 I always don't know what to tell them. 254 00:16:57,810 --> 00:16:58,810 You know what I'm saying? 255 00:16:58,870 --> 00:17:00,050 Well, the truth usually works. 256 00:17:00,850 --> 00:17:01,850 Truth hurts. 257 00:17:02,050 --> 00:17:03,190 When did you meet Paula? 258 00:17:03,830 --> 00:17:05,930 I met Paula in 1972. 259 00:17:06,970 --> 00:17:08,089 We both... 260 00:17:08,380 --> 00:17:10,760 Started at a new job about the same time. 261 00:17:11,260 --> 00:17:13,319 What were the things that drew you together? 262 00:17:13,780 --> 00:17:15,160 I suppose drinking experiences. 263 00:17:15,660 --> 00:17:20,060 I already had had considerable trouble from drinking, so I stopped drinking. 264 00:17:20,660 --> 00:17:24,819 And it was a funny thing. I had more objectivity about her drinking than I 265 00:17:24,819 --> 00:17:25,819 could about myself. 266 00:17:26,180 --> 00:17:28,620 So I did try to help her any way I could. 267 00:17:29,020 --> 00:17:30,180 Were you in love with her? 268 00:17:30,740 --> 00:17:32,460 No. That came later. 269 00:17:32,980 --> 00:17:34,920 Are you in love with her? Yes. 270 00:17:35,980 --> 00:17:40,620 What are you to her now? You're not her husband. What are you? Well, we're 271 00:17:40,620 --> 00:17:45,220 lovers. In California, I'm legally a woman, so I can't be married to Paula. 272 00:17:45,780 --> 00:17:49,880 But in our minds, we're still married. There's nothing that has really changed. 273 00:17:50,740 --> 00:17:52,200 How did Judy help you? 274 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:58,080 Well, I guess mostly by showing me that it was possible to live without 275 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,480 drinking. What about your sex life together? 276 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:02,760 Well, now it's different. 277 00:18:04,389 --> 00:18:08,730 You've had a penis all your life, and you've used it. 278 00:18:08,990 --> 00:18:12,310 Yes. And you've had a lot of sexual pleasure. 279 00:18:12,850 --> 00:18:13,850 That's true. 280 00:18:15,130 --> 00:18:21,570 How could you... Well, how could you castrate yourself, I mean, in a sense? 281 00:18:21,890 --> 00:18:26,050 Well, my doctors warned me about that, but that wasn't important to me. 282 00:18:27,170 --> 00:18:31,630 It was more important to me to be who I am than to worry about... 283 00:18:32,460 --> 00:18:35,720 trying to maintain the equipment of a life that was a lie. 284 00:18:36,820 --> 00:18:39,140 Did you try and stop her from having surgery? 285 00:18:39,620 --> 00:18:43,860 No. I only told her she should do what she had to do. 286 00:18:44,460 --> 00:18:45,700 But as a wife? 287 00:18:46,220 --> 00:18:48,100 Sure, I would have stopped it in a minute. 288 00:18:48,700 --> 00:18:49,700 As a wife. 289 00:18:50,740 --> 00:18:55,340 As a friend, I want her to have whatever it is that's going to make her life 290 00:18:55,340 --> 00:18:56,340 happy. 291 00:18:58,740 --> 00:19:01,260 How did your parents treat you as a child? 292 00:19:01,870 --> 00:19:05,350 I had the impression my father didn't like me, actually, all my life. 293 00:19:05,850 --> 00:19:09,610 For a long time in my early childhood, my mother treated me like one of the 294 00:19:09,610 --> 00:19:10,610 little girls. 295 00:19:10,690 --> 00:19:15,830 And she used to tell me that men were no good, and relative to my genitals, that 296 00:19:15,830 --> 00:19:17,250 I should have been a girl. 297 00:19:17,470 --> 00:19:18,369 What do you mean? 298 00:19:18,370 --> 00:19:22,850 Well, like my genitals should have been inside me instead of outside, and things 299 00:19:22,850 --> 00:19:27,570 like this. How did she show that to you? Well, she would, like, push them in 300 00:19:27,570 --> 00:19:28,770 there, and so on. 301 00:19:31,070 --> 00:19:35,010 After a confused childhood and traumatic adolescence, Jody joined the Navy 302 00:19:35,010 --> 00:19:37,510 determined to be the man his father wanted him to be. 303 00:19:39,330 --> 00:19:42,390 The guys on the ship at the time were calling me queer. 304 00:19:43,190 --> 00:19:49,770 So then I thought my problem was I wasn't manly. So I began to invent a 305 00:19:49,770 --> 00:19:50,770 character to be. 306 00:19:51,610 --> 00:19:57,110 I did a lot of heavy drinking and I got in fights. I went to jail and I learned 307 00:19:57,110 --> 00:19:58,590 how to really yell at people like, 308 00:20:11,940 --> 00:20:15,020 Jody, like most transsexuals, tried to prove his masculinity. 309 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,900 He met his first wife and fathered three children. 310 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,020 They stayed together 13 years. 311 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,660 And all that just evaporated. And I felt that it was my fault. I took all the 312 00:20:33,660 --> 00:20:36,240 guilt out of there in a bag. I'm dragging this bag around. 313 00:20:36,540 --> 00:20:41,060 If I hadn't been a sissy or a queen or a faggot, this would have never happened. 314 00:20:41,540 --> 00:20:43,680 And everybody agreed with me. 315 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:46,040 They said, sure, you're right. 316 00:20:47,740 --> 00:20:54,400 In those days, I considered suicide on a very frequent basis. I would actually 317 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,880 take a loaded rifle and stick it in my mouth and sit there with my... 318 00:20:58,730 --> 00:21:03,290 thumb or toe on the trigger, you know, and trying to make up my mind whether or 319 00:21:03,290 --> 00:21:06,090 not I should kill myself. And I just didn't really want to do that. I didn't 320 00:21:06,090 --> 00:21:07,090 have the guts. 321 00:21:08,670 --> 00:21:12,270 Although two of Jodi's children have rejected her, she and her third child 322 00:21:12,270 --> 00:21:13,410 have built a new relationship. 323 00:21:14,350 --> 00:21:16,450 How do you feel about your dad being a transsexual? 324 00:21:17,370 --> 00:21:22,390 She's a lot more sensitive outward than she used to be. 325 00:21:23,210 --> 00:21:27,390 She was always very masculine and would never show. 326 00:21:29,490 --> 00:21:35,770 feelings of hurt or anything like that. It was always anger and now she's 327 00:21:35,770 --> 00:21:38,350 really sensitive to people. 328 00:21:39,590 --> 00:21:42,950 Do you feel that there are certain aspects of Jodi that have changed since 329 00:21:42,950 --> 00:21:44,350 he became a she? 330 00:21:45,410 --> 00:21:48,010 More closeness. 331 00:21:50,330 --> 00:21:52,670 So what do you have? You have another mother? 332 00:21:53,030 --> 00:21:54,030 Yeah. 333 00:21:54,510 --> 00:21:56,190 Add another one to the stack. 334 00:21:59,860 --> 00:22:05,780 What frustrates you most about yourself as a woman? Well, in my case, I had to 335 00:22:05,780 --> 00:22:10,780 work very hard at appearing as a woman. I have electrolysis treatment, for 336 00:22:10,780 --> 00:22:12,420 example, on my face. 337 00:22:12,780 --> 00:22:17,100 No, not now. I'm also working on voice training. It's very hard for me. I keep 338 00:22:17,100 --> 00:22:21,560 slipping back. Although I have come an incredibly long way with my voice, it's 339 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:22,700 still a problem for me. 340 00:22:22,980 --> 00:22:24,820 No, there's no one home at all. 341 00:22:25,300 --> 00:22:27,780 I also had to learn... 342 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,440 How to dress conservatively and not appear outlandish in society. 343 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:39,140 What do you find most beautiful about yourself as a woman? Well, for the first 344 00:22:39,140 --> 00:22:41,260 time in my life, I'm 100% out. 345 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,220 I just don't have to put up any more bullshit images. 346 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:51,000 So there's no alternative for me now. In other words, if I can't make it in 347 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,820 society as a woman, then I just can't make it in society. 348 00:22:55,860 --> 00:22:57,340 And? I can't go back. 349 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,760 And I just considered I would rather kill myself than just think about going 350 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:02,760 back. 351 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,680 I think the most important thing about the transsexuals is this is not 352 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,740 something someone does on a lark. This is not something they chose. 353 00:23:11,140 --> 00:23:14,260 These people have felt this way and wanted this usually since earliest 354 00:23:14,260 --> 00:23:16,800 childhood, and they fought it and they fought it and they fought it. 355 00:23:17,340 --> 00:23:20,340 And even though they may appear to family and friends as having been 356 00:23:20,340 --> 00:23:23,820 normal, happy kids or teenagers, they were living a private hell. 357 00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:27,200 with a lot of depression, self-hate, fear of discovery. 358 00:23:27,780 --> 00:23:31,180 And it's not that one day they choose to, oh, I give up, I'm going to go get a 359 00:23:31,180 --> 00:23:32,079 sex change. 360 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,800 One day the burden of living a lie just becomes intolerable. They simply cannot 361 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,060 go on any longer, as they have been. 362 00:23:38,380 --> 00:23:40,080 And then they will announce their intentions. 363 00:23:40,660 --> 00:23:44,440 Again, it's not choice, and it's not something that they dreamt up that rainy 364 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,100 Tuesday. It's been with them for years. 365 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,640 And it's not easy. You just don't go into a hospital one day and come out the 366 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,580 next with a new sex, not just a sex change operation. 367 00:23:53,310 --> 00:23:59,470 It's a long series of procedures with hormones, shrink, electrolysis, changing 368 00:23:59,470 --> 00:24:04,110 legal papers, facing job discrimination and sex discrimination in the new life. 369 00:24:04,410 --> 00:24:09,390 And I really have to admire the guts of those who get through it and survive. 370 00:24:12,270 --> 00:24:15,730 Surgery is clearly not the answer to all sexual problems, and it can have 371 00:24:15,730 --> 00:24:16,730 terrible consequences. 372 00:24:17,590 --> 00:24:20,470 Clifford is 35 years old and lives in Northern California. 373 00:24:21,210 --> 00:24:24,290 He comes from a military family and a fundamentalist church. 374 00:24:24,610 --> 00:24:28,930 A gay man desperately running from his homosexuality, he tried to resolve his 375 00:24:28,930 --> 00:24:30,370 conflict by becoming a woman. 376 00:24:31,390 --> 00:24:33,710 When did you first feel that something was wrong? 377 00:24:34,090 --> 00:24:38,770 That was probably when I got married. My sister had got married. My brother got 378 00:24:38,770 --> 00:24:39,770 married. 379 00:24:40,310 --> 00:24:42,470 And I was the only one that hadn't got married. 380 00:24:42,710 --> 00:24:46,870 My folks kind of made me feel that I was obligated also to get married and have a 381 00:24:46,870 --> 00:24:48,310 family like my brother and sister. 382 00:24:49,900 --> 00:24:52,680 Did you hate the idea of being a homosexual? 383 00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:58,460 I was afraid, because at the time I felt, from what society was thinking 384 00:24:58,460 --> 00:25:02,940 about homosexuals, that they're sick people, and there's abnormal behavior, 385 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,180 and should be destroyed, and there's also the possibility that I might get 386 00:25:07,180 --> 00:25:09,200 locked up for life because of that behavior. 387 00:25:09,460 --> 00:25:11,100 And you went to therapists then? 388 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:13,740 Yes, I went to the therapist. 389 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,080 Clifford was not part of a reputable gender program. 390 00:25:17,770 --> 00:25:22,170 In gender clinics, a safe place is provided to anyone who wishes to examine 391 00:25:22,170 --> 00:25:23,290 their sexual problems. 392 00:25:24,210 --> 00:25:28,310 Therapists find that 9 out of 10 patients who think they are transsexuals 393 00:25:28,310 --> 00:25:30,250 decide not to go through with the surgery. 394 00:25:31,030 --> 00:25:35,670 Clifford, on the other hand, read books on transsexualism and convinced doctors 395 00:25:35,670 --> 00:25:37,450 that he was a candidate for surgery. 396 00:25:38,370 --> 00:25:43,950 When it came to surgical time, I was so dragged out of it that I couldn't stop 397 00:25:43,950 --> 00:25:46,710 the surgery. I couldn't call my friend and say, come and get me. 398 00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:51,740 I only remember going into the surgery room just a few moments, kind of like 399 00:25:51,740 --> 00:25:53,880 how you flash in and flash out. 400 00:25:54,420 --> 00:25:59,020 I see the anesthesiologist for probably about two or three seconds. 401 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,000 I tried to make a sound to him saying stop. 402 00:26:02,260 --> 00:26:06,020 I couldn't get it out of my mouth. My mouth was open. Nothing would come out 403 00:26:06,020 --> 00:26:07,960 of my mouth. I said, don't do this. 404 00:26:08,900 --> 00:26:11,980 Next thing when I woke up, it was probably about a day and a half later, 405 00:26:12,100 --> 00:26:14,560 and it all happened. 406 00:26:15,709 --> 00:26:17,770 I don't know. I was totally delirious. 407 00:26:18,110 --> 00:26:21,010 I wanted to pull what they call the catheter tube out. 408 00:26:21,410 --> 00:26:24,570 I wanted to leave the hospital. I wasn't worried if I was going to bleed to death 409 00:26:24,570 --> 00:26:25,570 or not bleed to death. 410 00:26:26,270 --> 00:26:29,730 I felt the end of the world had come for what had happened to me. 411 00:26:31,390 --> 00:26:32,390 I don't know. 412 00:26:32,670 --> 00:26:34,470 It's really been a big tragedy. 413 00:26:35,290 --> 00:26:40,050 Since then, I've been trying and trying to resolve what has happened to me, the 414 00:26:40,050 --> 00:26:43,170 tragedies of having my penis removed. 415 00:26:49,070 --> 00:26:52,810 Clifford tried to get legal classification as a mutilated male in 416 00:26:52,810 --> 00:26:56,830 order to obtain state aid for the $20,000 necessary for reconstructive 417 00:26:56,830 --> 00:26:58,930 surgery. His request was denied. 418 00:26:59,870 --> 00:27:03,070 But no surgery can restore functioning genitalia. 419 00:27:06,870 --> 00:27:11,290 Why would some find it more acceptable to be transsexual than homosexual? 420 00:27:11,890 --> 00:27:16,070 Many research studies have shown the kind of bias that goes on here. 421 00:27:17,070 --> 00:27:18,070 Transsexualism is... 422 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,260 It's considered a medical problem. It's treated by hormones. It's treated by 423 00:27:21,260 --> 00:27:24,000 surgery. And it therefore has that medical legitimacy. 424 00:27:25,460 --> 00:27:28,720 Homosexuality, still among some people, is considered a moral problem or a 425 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,020 religious problem. It's sinful. 426 00:27:31,380 --> 00:27:33,400 Transvestism is considered a psychiatric problem. 427 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,980 So if you had your choice between having a moral problem, a psychiatric problem, 428 00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:40,600 or a medical problem, you would rather label yourself with a medical problem. 429 00:27:43,780 --> 00:27:44,780 Hey, baby! 430 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,660 Hey! We're here for a good time! 431 00:27:48,420 --> 00:27:51,860 Prostitution is a fringe underworld in most large cities. 432 00:27:52,460 --> 00:27:55,720 These prostitutes in San Francisco are transsexual. 433 00:27:56,020 --> 00:27:58,420 And a new phenomenon, the she-males. 434 00:28:00,220 --> 00:28:05,080 Women from the waist up, men from the waist down. They pass their will for 435 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,220 women now that many Johns never know that their lady of the night is no lady. 436 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:17,160 For some, this kinky new phenomenon is a big attraction. 437 00:28:19,210 --> 00:28:21,790 None of these women were born female. 438 00:28:23,290 --> 00:28:27,250 Availability of female hormones, silicone, and plastic surgery has opened 439 00:28:27,250 --> 00:28:29,350 the doors to anyone who can pay for it. 440 00:28:29,690 --> 00:28:34,510 Drag queens and male hookers can fulfill most of their wildest fantasies thanks 441 00:28:34,510 --> 00:28:35,650 to medical technology. 442 00:28:36,550 --> 00:28:41,430 Have you gone to bed with guys when they haven't known that you had a penis down 443 00:28:41,430 --> 00:28:43,090 there? They never knew. 444 00:28:43,450 --> 00:28:45,710 How come? You tucked it away or what? 445 00:28:45,910 --> 00:28:46,950 Because I'm brilliant. 446 00:28:49,090 --> 00:28:52,830 What do you consider yourself? A woman. A woman or a man? 447 00:28:53,110 --> 00:28:54,110 No, 448 00:28:54,370 --> 00:28:55,269 a woman. 449 00:28:55,270 --> 00:28:59,630 But you have to remember the gender we're born under. 450 00:29:00,330 --> 00:29:03,830 Because the fact that I still have a queen doesn't make me look like a 451 00:29:03,830 --> 00:29:09,810 female. Okay, well, what he did is he injected silicone in these spots up in 452 00:29:09,810 --> 00:29:10,509 my breast. 453 00:29:10,510 --> 00:29:12,450 Yeah. And it falls down. 454 00:29:13,180 --> 00:29:18,000 into where you have like an underwire bra, and it holds up under here. 455 00:29:18,300 --> 00:29:21,180 And the more treatment you get, the more it builds up. 456 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,300 And it has that softness just like any other fresh wood. 457 00:29:26,020 --> 00:29:32,700 And what did you do? We inject in the thighs and the hips to give you that 458 00:29:32,700 --> 00:29:35,500 curve in the body. 459 00:29:35,700 --> 00:29:38,280 It's very shapely. 460 00:29:38,620 --> 00:29:41,040 This could be more of a woman. That's what film hall is about. 461 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:48,340 Who do you go to bed with? 462 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:50,080 Only guys. 463 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,080 I go to bed with women and guys. 464 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,020 Only men for you? Well, no, men and women. I like them both. 465 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,080 Are you going to go through with an operation? Are you going to become a 466 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:01,080 trans? 467 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,580 Stay, like, part woman and part woman? Well, I'm already a transsexual woman, 468 00:30:05,660 --> 00:30:09,820 and I am going to go through with the complete transition, which will end up 469 00:30:09,820 --> 00:30:10,820 in surgery. 470 00:30:12,020 --> 00:30:14,740 Transsexual heaven, gay boy heaven. That's why we all do what we want to do 471 00:30:14,740 --> 00:30:15,740 and look like we look. 472 00:30:19,740 --> 00:30:21,380 Theatricality is a stamp of this life. 473 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,500 A hunger for attention with a courting of risk. 474 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:36,360 While night people are the most visible members of the sex change world, they're 475 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,260 the smallest fraction of it in numbers. 476 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,240 This is suburban San Jose, California. 477 00:30:48,260 --> 00:30:51,660 There are other men who dress in women's clothes, but they have a lifestyle 478 00:30:51,660 --> 00:30:53,440 totally opposite to the she-males. 479 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:58,300 Far from being exhibitionists, these are men in hiding who have an uncontrollable 480 00:30:58,300 --> 00:30:59,680 obsession to cross-dress. 481 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,180 This is a transvestite. He is a member of one of 300 transvestite groups that 482 00:31:05,180 --> 00:31:06,620 meet in secret across the country. 483 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,060 Explain what the necessity is. 484 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,720 Everybody has a way of relieving the pressure. 485 00:31:13,220 --> 00:31:18,340 Everybody does. Some people drink, some people gamble, some people jog. It 486 00:31:18,340 --> 00:31:23,420 doesn't matter. You know, my way of relieving that emotional pressure within 487 00:31:23,420 --> 00:31:24,920 me is to cross-dress. 488 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,000 It's very difficult to explain. It was just a compulsion. 489 00:31:28,820 --> 00:31:29,820 I would do it. 490 00:31:30,540 --> 00:31:35,640 The average person who walks into my office for the first time walks in with 491 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:40,500 the expectation that I'll cure them. And they'll say, I'm here to stop cross 492 00:31:40,500 --> 00:31:43,340 -dressing. It causes me pain. Cure me. 493 00:31:43,900 --> 00:31:48,960 And then I let them know the bad news, which is there is no cure for this. 494 00:31:49,580 --> 00:31:52,540 These people were almost always heterosexual, most often married men 495 00:31:52,540 --> 00:31:56,120 with children, most often in very masculine, even macho jobs. 496 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,980 In fact, many of them, their masculine career has a uniform of its own. Police 497 00:32:00,980 --> 00:32:03,100 officer, military officer, construction worker. 498 00:32:03,460 --> 00:32:06,920 So their masculinity has a set of clothing and their femininity has a set 499 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:12,840 of clothing. The first time I can remember putting on any female clothing 500 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,800 would be in the area of 10 to 11 years old. 501 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,060 And whose clothing was it? Mother's. 502 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,480 In the beginning, did you masturbate with women's clothes on? Very 503 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:24,399 definitely, yes. 504 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:25,560 Did everybody here? 505 00:32:26,020 --> 00:32:30,740 Sure. Did anybody here have homosexual experiences? No, absolutely not. 506 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,440 Although I had a great fear that I was a homosexual because I'd raised them. Were 507 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,220 you afraid that you were a bad person or all the things that were tossed at you 508 00:32:38,220 --> 00:32:39,159 by society? 509 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:45,960 My concern was in explaining to my son that I was a transvestite. In the 510 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,480 beginning, he was hostile, but he... 511 00:32:48,780 --> 00:32:54,320 Came up to me one day and he put his arms around me and he says, I don't care 512 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,320 that you are a transvestite. 513 00:32:56,940 --> 00:32:58,360 I know that you love me. 514 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,920 Guilt is a terrible thing to have around. And when you can't express 515 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:08,360 yourself as a human being and whatever that happens to be, whatever you as an 516 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:13,520 individual are, then you're going to generate a tremendous amount of guilt. 517 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:15,760 and it'll react in various ways. 518 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,660 I had a phone conversation with somebody on the phone a couple of weeks ago, and 519 00:33:20,660 --> 00:33:22,100 I told him I was writing out a will. 520 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:28,600 And my will was, one, that I would be cremated at my death, but at the laying 521 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:33,960 out prior to the cremation, I would be laid out as Maria, not as my other half. 522 00:33:34,860 --> 00:33:38,500 And the person on the phone said to me, you're giving the world a message, 523 00:33:38,580 --> 00:33:41,860 aren't you? And I said, yes, my message is, fuck you, world. 524 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,560 Because I'm here, I'm Maria, and you didn't get me. 525 00:33:45,780 --> 00:33:48,060 Not to the bitter end, you didn't get me. 526 00:33:48,940 --> 00:33:52,740 It's only in the last few years that transvestites are letting us know where 527 00:33:52,740 --> 00:33:53,900 their anger is coming from. 528 00:33:54,300 --> 00:33:59,000 Some psychologists say their choice in clothes, the 40s and 50s, is reinforcing 529 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:00,940 a primary bond with their mothers. 530 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:03,860 TVs have what we call purges. 531 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,300 in which they get so overwrought by guilt that they not only tear the 532 00:34:07,300 --> 00:34:09,980 clothes off on that particular occasion, but they'll take their whole wardrobe 533 00:34:09,980 --> 00:34:12,699 out and burn it or give it away to the Salvation Army or something like that. 534 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:17,380 Because this is ridiculous. I'm a man. I'm not going to do such silly things as 535 00:34:17,380 --> 00:34:21,219 this. And they have big resolutions how they're going to reform. 536 00:34:22,100 --> 00:34:26,320 Virginia Prince, formerly Charles Prince, is now 71 years old and has 537 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,040 unofficial status as Grand Dame of Transvestism. 538 00:34:29,630 --> 00:34:33,929 She has lectured and written extensively on the subject, and in the late 1950s, 539 00:34:33,929 --> 00:34:36,110 she began publishing the journal Transvestia. 540 00:34:36,409 --> 00:34:38,469 She does not wish to appear on camera. 541 00:34:38,989 --> 00:34:40,989 Was it a sexual turn-on for you? 542 00:34:41,270 --> 00:34:46,090 Oh, it is for most everybody to begin with. You have to grow past the stage of 543 00:34:46,090 --> 00:34:50,610 being an erotically aroused male in a dress, which results eventually in an 544 00:34:50,610 --> 00:34:55,150 orgasm. But when the orgasm is over, if you continue to stay in the dress, you 545 00:34:55,150 --> 00:34:57,430 eventually begin to discover there's this other part of yourself. 546 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,340 You cease being an erotically aroused male and you simply become a man who 547 00:35:02,340 --> 00:35:06,520 becomes to recognize, gee, there's something nice about girlness that I'm 548 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:07,520 enjoying experiencing. 549 00:35:10,100 --> 00:35:14,660 Of all the transvestites we met, only Ken and Joe agreed to be filmed as men. 550 00:35:15,720 --> 00:35:19,640 Ken is a psychologist who works with other transvestites. He is the divorced 551 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:20,760 father of three children. 552 00:35:22,180 --> 00:35:24,700 Joe, also divorced, is a designer. 553 00:35:26,940 --> 00:35:30,580 Typical of transvestites, they are dressing in a hotel room, often the only 554 00:35:30,580 --> 00:35:33,140 place assuring anonymity and safety from discovery. 555 00:35:34,060 --> 00:35:35,340 I brought two wigs. 556 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,000 Ken, who are you when you take off those clothes? 557 00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:40,240 Ken. 558 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:41,560 Always Ken. 559 00:35:41,820 --> 00:35:42,820 You're always Ken. 560 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,340 Yeah. You mean there's no new personality when you dress? 561 00:35:46,700 --> 00:35:48,500 There's a new mood, a real high. 562 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:49,760 Is it sexual? 563 00:35:50,060 --> 00:35:51,960 It's sexual as well as everything else. 564 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,300 It's like all the things in your life that you thought were crap. 565 00:35:56,940 --> 00:35:58,960 suddenly come through and are positive. 566 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,460 Did your wife know that you were... She did. 567 00:36:02,780 --> 00:36:05,920 She thought I was gay, and she was going to change me. 568 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:12,200 All I needed was a good woman, and she couldn't cure me, and consequently, it's 569 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:13,600 not the only reason the marriage didn't last. 570 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:20,760 I lost two houses, three kids, a family, a job, self-respect, alcoholic. 571 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,180 Three years later, I said, one of the things about it is you aren't even 572 00:36:25,180 --> 00:36:26,180 yourself. 573 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,340 I thought, the worst that'll happen is I'll be a transsexual, and then I'll 574 00:36:30,340 --> 00:36:31,720 have to figure out what to do about that. 575 00:36:32,500 --> 00:36:36,460 That seemed the worst possible thing, because they go through hell. 576 00:36:37,180 --> 00:36:39,500 What we go through is a lifetime sentence. 577 00:36:40,580 --> 00:36:42,420 We're transvestites till we die. 578 00:36:43,380 --> 00:36:49,680 I was four years old. I remember I was at my grandmother's house, and she had 579 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,920 these wonderful silk panties. 580 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,100 And I was a small little guy at the time. 581 00:36:55,660 --> 00:37:00,480 And I just completely wrapped those things around me several times, but they 582 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:01,520 felt so wonderful. 583 00:37:02,620 --> 00:37:06,740 I'm going to try these pads and see if they work because I don't need a lot of 584 00:37:06,740 --> 00:37:07,740 them. 585 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,520 At least, see, this makes me flare out a little bit. After this, it won't make so 586 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:12,520 much difference. Yeah. 587 00:37:12,900 --> 00:37:16,640 Sometimes you can pad clear down here, but I don't need to. 588 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:19,360 You like them with big breasts? 589 00:37:19,860 --> 00:37:21,840 I like me with big ones. Oh, yeah? 590 00:37:22,330 --> 00:37:25,350 I used to like women with big ones. Now it's not so important. 591 00:37:26,490 --> 00:37:28,230 Are you in love with yourself? 592 00:37:28,790 --> 00:37:32,630 No, not really. I emulated women, though. 593 00:37:33,510 --> 00:37:37,070 I had to live vicariously through women with large breasts. 594 00:37:37,830 --> 00:37:41,250 So at that time it was important because I didn't think I had any potential that 595 00:37:41,250 --> 00:37:44,610 way. And now you've got them. Now I've got them. And what do you need with a 596 00:37:44,610 --> 00:37:47,530 woman? I need women for relationships. 597 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,940 When you were a kid and you did that, did you feel it was wrong? 598 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,220 I didn't stop to think it was wrong until it was afterwards. I got erections 599 00:37:58,220 --> 00:37:59,220 immediately. 600 00:37:59,660 --> 00:38:02,420 This little trick changes your whole expression. 601 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:07,740 The Japanese have been doing it for years with leaves, wet leaves. 602 00:38:08,500 --> 00:38:11,120 And I just use the old pantyhose technique. 603 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,100 What it does from sagging eyes to sensuous eyes. 604 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:20,120 I think. 605 00:38:21,620 --> 00:38:22,780 And I just wrap it around. 606 00:38:23,500 --> 00:38:27,020 Don't do it too tight, or you'll really stop circulation and you'll be in 607 00:38:27,020 --> 00:38:28,020 trouble. 608 00:38:29,060 --> 00:38:32,680 Now I can do the eyes. 609 00:38:38,380 --> 00:38:38,780 But 610 00:38:38,780 --> 00:38:46,240 it's 611 00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:47,860 not enough to be all dressed up. 612 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,180 There has to be a place to go. 613 00:38:50,980 --> 00:38:54,940 Since transvestites can't be safe in public, where do they party? 614 00:38:56,540 --> 00:39:00,040 This is the back room of a restaurant which a local transvestite group has 615 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:01,040 rented. 616 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,740 There is a network of transvestite groups across the country who hold 617 00:39:04,740 --> 00:39:09,000 parties like this where their members can go without risking scandal, loss of 618 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:10,060 jobs, or their marriages. 619 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,360 No one is allowed in without permission, though sympathetic wives and girlfriends 620 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:16,360 do attend. 621 00:39:17,710 --> 00:39:21,390 There is a growing business catering to transvestites. Since most of them are 622 00:39:21,390 --> 00:39:25,330 oversized as females and have difficulty finding clothes, there are mail-order 623 00:39:25,330 --> 00:39:28,950 catalogs, boutiques, and tall girls' shops which attract the transvestite 624 00:39:28,950 --> 00:39:29,950 trade. 625 00:39:31,690 --> 00:39:34,170 Virginia, what do men really get from cross-dressing? 626 00:39:35,490 --> 00:39:37,890 There are expectations laid on a man in our society. 627 00:39:38,770 --> 00:39:39,990 He's got to be a provider. 628 00:39:40,250 --> 00:39:43,390 He's got to be the strong shoulder to lean on. He's got to take care of the 629 00:39:43,390 --> 00:39:44,390 wife and the... 630 00:39:45,530 --> 00:39:48,210 Any woman, as far as that goes, you've got to have all the answers to 631 00:39:48,210 --> 00:39:49,210 everything. 632 00:39:49,570 --> 00:39:53,650 Boys are called fizzies if they vary very much from the standard pattern. 633 00:39:54,170 --> 00:39:58,590 All men have a feminine side, like all women have a masculine side. The 634 00:39:58,590 --> 00:40:01,710 dressing is an escape from these expectations of masculinity. 635 00:40:02,450 --> 00:40:07,430 I know the harm and the hurt that comes to people when wives seek divorce and 636 00:40:07,430 --> 00:40:11,910 parents disown and bosses fire because they find out that somebody likes to 637 00:40:11,910 --> 00:40:12,910 wear dresses. 638 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,500 They never do this to women who like to wear pants. 639 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:18,780 Why are there no female transvestites? 640 00:40:19,140 --> 00:40:21,880 A woman can go into a man's store and actually buy men's clothes. 641 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,400 Nobody asks her any questions. She can take them home, put them on, walk down 642 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:26,740 the street, go to the market, do anything. 643 00:40:27,240 --> 00:40:31,220 What is there to escape into or from that society cares about? 644 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,560 But men couldn't do this because of this sissy business which they learned as 645 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:36,560 children. 646 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:41,220 In more repressed times, women needed to pass as men under certain conditions. 647 00:40:41,980 --> 00:40:45,140 Joan of Arc was told by her voices to dress as a man. 648 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:51,080 Hannah Snell passed as a sailor in the 1880s. In the aristocracy, women cross 649 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:56,740 -dressed to shock, as George Sand did, and Vita Sackville-West, an act of 650 00:40:56,740 --> 00:40:59,700 rebellion in a society where women held no rights at all. 651 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:05,080 Sometimes it was economic, a few dressed as men to earn a living on stage, like 652 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,800 Colette, which was shocking at the time. 653 00:41:08,490 --> 00:41:11,990 Today, for women to wear men's clothing is simply high fashion. 654 00:41:12,630 --> 00:41:17,730 But for female transsexuals, women who feel they were born into the wrong body, 655 00:41:17,910 --> 00:41:19,530 there is also surgery. 656 00:41:19,990 --> 00:41:24,810 50% of all transsexual surgery is now from female to male. 657 00:41:25,530 --> 00:41:27,070 Stephen was born female. 658 00:41:27,310 --> 00:41:30,270 His parents named him Doris and they raised him as their daughter. 659 00:41:30,490 --> 00:41:32,830 But Stephen always thought of himself as a boy. 660 00:41:33,330 --> 00:41:37,170 Seven years ago, at the age of 35, he had surgery to change his sex. 661 00:41:38,100 --> 00:41:42,060 Stephen has been married twice, once as a woman, once as a man. Both marriages 662 00:41:42,060 --> 00:41:43,060 ended in divorce. 663 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:49,760 My torment came inside, inside me. I wanted to be who I was. 664 00:41:50,260 --> 00:41:51,760 I wanted to also fit. 665 00:41:52,720 --> 00:41:55,480 And to be who I was and fit would not go together. 666 00:41:56,220 --> 00:42:00,060 I can remember feeling different way back in elementary school, probably even 667 00:42:00,060 --> 00:42:01,060 before then. 668 00:42:02,700 --> 00:42:06,540 I knew that I was a female, I was a girl because of my anatomy and was taught 669 00:42:06,540 --> 00:42:07,540 about those kinds of things. 670 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,040 I was more of a tomboy than the girls were that were tomboys. 671 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:13,220 And I just was always different than my classmates. 672 00:42:16,220 --> 00:42:19,180 Starting even in elementary school, I used to have upset stomachs all the time 673 00:42:19,180 --> 00:42:21,660 and we couldn't correlate what was going on in my environment. 674 00:42:22,140 --> 00:42:24,660 I went through this all the way through high school and college. 675 00:42:25,540 --> 00:42:26,580 How'd you get through high school? 676 00:42:27,500 --> 00:42:28,500 What difficulty? 677 00:42:29,100 --> 00:42:30,780 I found the girls silly and giddy. 678 00:42:31,190 --> 00:42:32,610 I identified more with the guys. 679 00:42:33,110 --> 00:42:35,990 I was a tremendous athlete, and they didn't have much of an athletic program 680 00:42:35,990 --> 00:42:37,910 for us, so I longed for that kind of an opportunity. 681 00:42:38,510 --> 00:42:41,810 I was laughed at, so I'd break out in sweats. I didn't know how to behave. 682 00:42:42,750 --> 00:42:44,550 Just a total awkward stage for me. 683 00:42:45,270 --> 00:42:48,770 If I didn't have the good connections I did with teachers, plus my family, I 684 00:42:48,770 --> 00:42:49,770 don't know what I would have done. 685 00:42:50,290 --> 00:42:54,150 And the counselor that I fought at that time felt that I had masculine 686 00:42:54,150 --> 00:42:57,770 protesting, as the term they used at that time, or penis envy. 687 00:42:58,339 --> 00:43:00,680 I wanted to be a boy, and if I didn't get straightened out, I would be a 688 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:01,680 lesbian. 689 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:03,960 I would rather live as a female in our society. 690 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,940 But you see, if I wasn't female gendered, I was female sex. It's the 691 00:43:07,940 --> 00:43:10,660 gender that lets you be who you are, not your sex. 692 00:43:11,460 --> 00:43:13,560 So if I'm male gendered, I've got to line the body up. 693 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:15,000 Now I'm a whole person. 694 00:43:17,220 --> 00:43:18,400 One, two. 695 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,060 Surgery puts the period at the end of the sentence. 696 00:43:21,740 --> 00:43:24,760 I look completely male, poorly endowed, but I'm completely male. 697 00:43:25,180 --> 00:43:29,340 And I can face a partner in intimacy without having to be awkward about it. 698 00:43:30,020 --> 00:43:33,200 I went to an institute in San Francisco, and there was a hot tub, and we were all 699 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:33,819 in it. 700 00:43:33,820 --> 00:43:37,320 And one of the gals who knew that I used to be a female asked if she could see my 701 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,640 genital surgery more closely, and we were all nude. 702 00:43:39,900 --> 00:43:40,900 And I said, sure. 703 00:43:41,720 --> 00:43:43,560 Well, a male was just getting out of the hot tub. 704 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,180 And I guess he asked her afterwards, he was horribly embarrassed for me because 705 00:43:47,180 --> 00:43:49,780 I was small, number one. And number two, why would you do that when, you know, he 706 00:43:49,780 --> 00:43:52,680 was there? And when she told him that I used to be a female, he could not 707 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:53,419 believe it. 708 00:43:53,420 --> 00:43:55,700 So that's how beautifully done the surgery is that I've elected. 709 00:43:56,540 --> 00:43:58,680 So you were glad to see your breasts go? 710 00:43:58,880 --> 00:43:59,880 Oh, yes. 711 00:44:00,180 --> 00:44:01,800 I was lucky enough to have keyhole surgery. 712 00:44:02,660 --> 00:44:04,960 What's that? They mean to just go in around the regular ring. 713 00:44:05,180 --> 00:44:09,280 And they can take out, if you're small, a small amount of tissue and suture you 714 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,660 back up. And I believe in vitamin E, and so there's no scarring. 715 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,620 Ah. So my chest looks just like any, I can't say any other man's chest. I'm 716 00:44:15,620 --> 00:44:18,280 lucky I've got a lot of hair and I'm muscular, but it looks fine. 717 00:44:18,580 --> 00:44:22,300 In addition to his breast surgery, Stephen has had a hysterectomy and 718 00:44:22,300 --> 00:44:26,700 surgery to free the clitoris, elongated by hormones so that it resembles a small 719 00:44:26,700 --> 00:44:27,700 penis. 720 00:44:28,060 --> 00:44:31,040 Although he has sexual sensation, he cannot produce sperm. 721 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:34,500 This is an album of the publicity. 722 00:44:35,260 --> 00:44:38,240 that was written up over there. Even though he had been named Teacher of the 723 00:44:38,240 --> 00:44:42,280 Year, Stephen lost his job in 1977 because he chose to have surgery. 724 00:44:43,300 --> 00:44:46,260 He had to defend himself in court for almost four years. 725 00:44:47,140 --> 00:44:50,980 Although the court declared him a fit teacher, no one would hire him again. 726 00:44:52,240 --> 00:44:58,100 Basically, it started out that I was suspended on immoral charges and I was 727 00:44:58,100 --> 00:44:59,380 going to withdraw from my teaching position. 728 00:45:00,090 --> 00:45:01,810 What did you teach? Physical education. 729 00:45:02,070 --> 00:45:05,310 I taught grades 7 through 12. And I was going to withdraw from that school and 730 00:45:05,310 --> 00:45:06,430 go to another area and teach. 731 00:45:06,690 --> 00:45:11,370 And I was encouraged to return by the school board and get reassigned. 732 00:45:11,630 --> 00:45:13,610 And we changed superintendents at that time. 733 00:45:14,130 --> 00:45:18,750 And he, along with I'm sure some people in the district themselves who couldn't 734 00:45:18,750 --> 00:45:22,530 deal with this, did everything they could to make it difficult for me, and I 735 00:45:22,530 --> 00:45:23,530 did. 736 00:45:23,890 --> 00:45:27,330 There was a person who would call my athletes in. 737 00:45:27,900 --> 00:45:31,480 I had winning basketball teams call my athletes in and tell them that they were 738 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:32,960 appearing to turn into men themselves. 739 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,280 These were girls who you taught? These were students that I taught, and this 740 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,780 was an administrator, and would call them in and tell them that I couldn't 741 00:45:40,780 --> 00:45:43,140 possibly be a man because I couldn't shoot sperm. 742 00:45:43,720 --> 00:45:46,580 And it was awful, the kind of treatment. 743 00:45:47,530 --> 00:45:50,890 that he was allowed to execute on the students. You talk about psychological 744 00:45:50,890 --> 00:45:53,930 harm. The students were in support of me, and the majority of parents were in 745 00:45:53,930 --> 00:45:56,130 support of me, and so were the teachers, so was society. 746 00:45:56,370 --> 00:45:57,870 Otherwise, I don't know if I could live through all this. 747 00:45:59,630 --> 00:46:03,850 I have for seven years struggled to hang on to what I did get as Doris, my house, 748 00:46:03,850 --> 00:46:07,770 my car, and I'm deciding that maybe I ought to let go of those kinds of things 749 00:46:07,770 --> 00:46:10,810 so I can step out of the self-employment situation where I don't have to deal 750 00:46:10,810 --> 00:46:13,550 with people saying, no, I won't hire you. But remember, there's very few of 751 00:46:13,550 --> 00:46:15,190 us. It's not something everybody's running out to do. 752 00:46:15,990 --> 00:46:17,470 What kind of work have you been doing? 753 00:46:17,790 --> 00:46:21,250 I've been struggling trying to set ceramic tile. I have a license now as a 754 00:46:21,250 --> 00:46:22,250 tile setter. 755 00:46:22,330 --> 00:46:25,390 I was hired as a laborer in construction, but tile setting I love to 756 00:46:25,390 --> 00:46:26,390 do. 757 00:46:26,690 --> 00:46:28,770 Why didn't you go back to teaching? 758 00:46:29,050 --> 00:46:31,710 I would love to be back in teaching. I love students. 759 00:46:32,570 --> 00:46:36,190 I miss that more than anything. I miss my kids, as I call them, in Emeryville 760 00:46:36,190 --> 00:46:37,190 more than anything. 761 00:46:37,820 --> 00:46:41,700 It's difficult because the educational system is so conservative. If one parent 762 00:46:41,700 --> 00:46:45,980 or two parents on the block who belong to PTA and are very vocal object to my 763 00:46:45,980 --> 00:46:48,940 being there because they think, even though I've been proven psychologically 764 00:46:48,940 --> 00:46:52,720 sound and fit to teach and still retain my teaching credential, they would cause 765 00:46:52,720 --> 00:46:57,740 such headache that the superintendents aren't willing to deal with that. 766 00:46:57,940 --> 00:47:00,580 And I've been taken in a personnel office when I applied for substitute 767 00:47:00,580 --> 00:47:01,940 teaching in this area. 768 00:47:02,380 --> 00:47:04,920 And the woman closed the door and said, Mr. Dane, do you really think you'll 769 00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:07,900 ever get back into teaching again? In other words, how stupid was I to even 770 00:47:07,900 --> 00:47:09,220 apply for a substitute teaching job? 771 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,220 So it's been very, very difficult, and I miss it. 772 00:47:13,700 --> 00:47:14,960 Explain about the hormone. 773 00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,100 For the woman that's becoming a man, she'll take testosterone. 774 00:47:18,540 --> 00:47:22,080 It's an injection every two weeks, and the results are rather dramatic. 775 00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:24,420 The skin will coarsen up somewhat. 776 00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:26,220 Acne will form. 777 00:47:26,420 --> 00:47:28,960 She'll have a teenage male acne problem. 778 00:47:29,860 --> 00:47:31,500 The beard will grow, body hair. 779 00:47:32,090 --> 00:47:35,410 all over the body, just like the men in both sides of her family tree. 780 00:47:35,650 --> 00:47:39,170 So if they were hairy, she'll be very hairy. If they were not, then maybe the 781 00:47:39,170 --> 00:47:40,170 beard will be sparse. 782 00:47:40,750 --> 00:47:42,590 The breasts will shrink, but only slightly. 783 00:47:43,490 --> 00:47:47,970 The clitoris will elongate, and in some cases it can elongate almost to the size 784 00:47:47,970 --> 00:47:49,990 of a small, normal adult man's penis. 785 00:47:50,710 --> 00:47:56,550 The female-to-male patient just seems psychologically a bit more stable, 786 00:47:56,770 --> 00:48:00,750 steadier, more down-to-earth, perhaps less so. 787 00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,940 flamboyant, less narcissistic. They just seem to do better. 788 00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:06,760 They also seem to have mates. 789 00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:11,800 Yeah, almost all have a consistent partner, be it a spouse or a lover. 790 00:48:14,720 --> 00:48:18,080 Sometimes people are brought into this world and they're not as fortunate as 791 00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:21,260 others, you know, and I feel that that's the same thing that happened to me. 792 00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:27,280 I always felt that I was brought into this world with a deformity and because 793 00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,860 of medical technology now that it can be taken care of. 794 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:32,080 And I'm not a freak anymore. 795 00:48:33,420 --> 00:48:35,540 John and Susan live in Northern California. 796 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,000 They've been together for more than 15 years. 797 00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:42,000 It was only two years ago that John, born female, completed surgery. 798 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:46,560 He and Susan are now legally married. Both of them work at a naval shipyard. 799 00:48:47,860 --> 00:48:51,700 You described yourself at one point that you thought of yourself as one of those 800 00:48:51,700 --> 00:48:54,500 laughing women in the circus. 801 00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,620 Yeah, the lady in the fun house out in San Francisco. 802 00:48:58,000 --> 00:48:59,480 When I was a child, we'd go there. 803 00:49:01,740 --> 00:49:05,400 and sometimes I used to think that that's what I would grow up to be, that 804 00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:08,860 lady. I mean, I used to think of myself as being a freak. 805 00:49:10,100 --> 00:49:11,640 I always felt like a little boy. 806 00:49:11,940 --> 00:49:15,000 I mean, I had a lot of friends in school, but nobody ever really knew me. 807 00:49:15,700 --> 00:49:19,080 Everybody thought I was just a lot of fun and a good kid, but deep down 808 00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:21,620 inside, I was really hurting and afraid. 809 00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:28,180 The very first time we were together, he told me how he felt. 810 00:49:28,910 --> 00:49:34,750 you know and that he wanted to have a sex change and i just fell apart like no 811 00:49:34,750 --> 00:49:41,230 you know you can't do this well what did you did were you in love with janet 812 00:49:41,230 --> 00:49:47,310 yeah at that particular time and i think that at that particular time i thought 813 00:49:47,310 --> 00:49:52,370 it was janet that i was in love with and he kept she kept telling me you know 814 00:49:52,370 --> 00:49:56,810 well you know i'd be the same person and 815 00:49:57,530 --> 00:50:01,730 I think I was fearful, maybe now, looking back on it, I was fearful of 816 00:50:01,730 --> 00:50:04,570 what other people would think or say. 817 00:50:05,550 --> 00:50:10,030 You mean that they'd say more if there was a sex change operation than if it 818 00:50:10,030 --> 00:50:11,710 was a gay relationship? 819 00:50:12,190 --> 00:50:13,190 I think so. 820 00:50:14,390 --> 00:50:17,190 Describe yourself as a woman before you went into surgery. 821 00:50:17,850 --> 00:50:19,530 I was really disgusted with myself. 822 00:50:19,850 --> 00:50:22,130 At one time in my life, I weighed 260 pounds. 823 00:50:22,430 --> 00:50:25,650 I hated my body so much that I just totally grossed out. 824 00:50:26,190 --> 00:50:27,190 Did you have big breasts? 825 00:50:27,230 --> 00:50:28,069 Oh, huge. 826 00:50:28,070 --> 00:50:29,130 I was like 40 Ds. 827 00:50:30,050 --> 00:50:34,530 To me, they were big and gross and ugly, and besides the fact that I always felt 828 00:50:34,530 --> 00:50:37,690 they were dead and had no feeling, I mean, there was just no way I could even 829 00:50:37,690 --> 00:50:39,370 admit that they were a part of me. 830 00:50:40,990 --> 00:50:44,410 John, whose breasts were so large, was forced to go through a tedious breast 831 00:50:44,410 --> 00:50:46,730 -binding procedure in order to pass as a man. 832 00:50:47,330 --> 00:50:51,110 Female to male transsexuals are also required to live and dress as the 833 00:50:51,110 --> 00:50:54,690 opposite sex before they're approved for surgery. I had a mastectomy first. 834 00:50:55,850 --> 00:50:58,590 And then that surgery went really well. 835 00:50:58,810 --> 00:51:00,190 You weren't sorry? 836 00:51:00,630 --> 00:51:01,790 Oh, no. 837 00:51:02,090 --> 00:51:08,370 Susan, how would you feel thinking of a mastectomy? Unless he was getting these, 838 00:51:08,410 --> 00:51:12,290 well, objects removed that he hated so much. 839 00:51:12,730 --> 00:51:19,170 Everything I have now is all mine, except for the implants, the testicle 840 00:51:19,170 --> 00:51:22,110 implants or silicone. But the outer skin is all mine. 841 00:51:22,890 --> 00:51:27,510 and so i mean i have all the feeling and sensation everything is very natural and 842 00:51:27,510 --> 00:51:34,190 normal and has feelings which before i didn't so um before our 843 00:51:34,190 --> 00:51:37,990 in our relationship it was just a one-way relationship you know i would 844 00:51:37,990 --> 00:51:42,390 make love to susan in our relationship and my body was always totally off 845 00:51:42,390 --> 00:51:47,830 limits to her now since i've had my surgery My body has feeling, and I'm 846 00:51:47,830 --> 00:51:50,710 getting to where I enjoy my own body. I like my body now. 847 00:51:51,010 --> 00:51:54,250 You mean you're allowing yourself to have sexual feelings? Right. 848 00:51:54,610 --> 00:51:55,589 Well, you didn't before? 849 00:51:55,590 --> 00:52:00,570 Right. You two got married? Yeah, we did. We got married up in Tahoe on a 850 00:52:00,570 --> 00:52:01,610 boat. 851 00:52:02,530 --> 00:52:03,990 Do you both want a family? 852 00:52:04,390 --> 00:52:07,290 We've been trying for about a year now. 853 00:52:08,630 --> 00:52:12,530 How? I've been going for artificial insemination. 854 00:52:15,220 --> 00:52:20,260 Had a couple, well, the doctor thinks I had a, what do you call it, spontaneous 855 00:52:20,260 --> 00:52:24,960 miscarriage. I was, you know, like three weeks overdue type thing. Why does that 856 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,980 happen? So we just keep hoping. 857 00:52:28,340 --> 00:52:34,640 And we've been thinking about going to an independent adoption agency also, 858 00:52:34,720 --> 00:52:36,160 try to adopt. 859 00:52:37,580 --> 00:52:38,880 Do you ever miss Janet? 860 00:52:39,260 --> 00:52:42,740 No. In fact, sometimes when I look at him now, I can't even picture. 861 00:52:43,530 --> 00:52:48,550 Damn it. This is so natural and so right that this is right. 862 00:52:49,210 --> 00:52:53,250 Why people shouldn't, if they feel that they should have a sex change, any 863 00:52:53,250 --> 00:52:57,110 reason that you feel they shouldn't? No, I really think they should. I think it's 864 00:52:57,110 --> 00:53:02,150 all in the pursuit of happiness. But whatever you want to do yourself, as 865 00:53:02,150 --> 00:53:05,690 long as it doesn't affect someone else, you should do it. 866 00:53:06,310 --> 00:53:10,750 When John and I were working together, he told me about it. And the first thing 867 00:53:10,750 --> 00:53:14,060 I said was, You've got to be shitting me off. 868 00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:16,780 What else can I say, you know? 869 00:53:17,240 --> 00:53:21,920 And then, you know, we just, hey, I'm just a nice guy, you know, and John is a 870 00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:24,580 nice guy, and we all get along, we all get along. 871 00:53:24,900 --> 00:53:25,920 I was afraid of him. 872 00:53:26,500 --> 00:53:30,360 I really was. But after I got to know him, nice guy. 873 00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:33,460 Do you think that most people would feel that way? Yeah. 874 00:53:33,720 --> 00:53:37,820 A lot of them were, yeah, afraid of him. They didn't know what to say in front of 875 00:53:37,820 --> 00:53:38,820 him or anything. 876 00:53:39,790 --> 00:53:42,070 Kind of had something to do with Susan being here. 877 00:53:42,390 --> 00:53:43,390 What's that? 878 00:53:43,550 --> 00:53:47,710 Father. Way back in the beginning, was it difficult for you to accept the fact 879 00:53:47,710 --> 00:53:49,930 that Susan was gay? Oh, my God, yeah. 880 00:53:50,350 --> 00:53:54,870 It was. Oh, yeah. What did you feel about it? Well, I'd done something 881 00:53:54,870 --> 00:53:57,110 wrong, or possibly my wife. 882 00:53:57,430 --> 00:53:58,650 I'm sure it was her fault. 883 00:54:00,910 --> 00:54:02,310 But, well, 884 00:54:03,590 --> 00:54:06,330 I mean, you can't have something like this happen in your family without 885 00:54:06,330 --> 00:54:08,450 feeling some responsibility for it. 886 00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:10,040 So you blamed yourself? 887 00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:11,480 I suppose so. 888 00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:16,880 Is it like a real kind of triumph for you now because your daughter's in like 889 00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:18,440 a real normal marriage? Well, 890 00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:20,920 she's not gay anymore. 891 00:54:23,060 --> 00:54:26,820 Did you grow with this situation? Do you feel you learned something out of it? 892 00:54:27,240 --> 00:54:28,240 I don't know. 893 00:54:28,720 --> 00:54:32,420 I was very prejudiced. I was one of the people that when I first moved into 894 00:54:32,420 --> 00:54:36,380 Gregory Gardens and Pleasant Hill that they were going to form this big thing 895 00:54:36,380 --> 00:54:39,500 about keep the colored out. And boy, I was gung-ho for this. Let's keep the 896 00:54:39,500 --> 00:54:40,500 colored out. 897 00:54:40,580 --> 00:54:44,720 I don't remember ever what happened to that because I happened to like a guy 898 00:54:44,720 --> 00:54:45,940 that I worked with that was colored. 899 00:54:46,580 --> 00:54:49,940 And so, I don't know, I just dropped out of that town. 900 00:54:50,300 --> 00:54:52,300 You've changed a lot. Oh, probably. 901 00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:59,800 I've always wanted the same things everybody else wants in life. 902 00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:05,240 I wanted to buy and give Susan what I felt any other man could give her. I 903 00:55:05,240 --> 00:55:08,680 wanted to be able to give her a home, you know, and a family just like any 904 00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:09,680 other guy would want to. 905 00:55:10,660 --> 00:55:13,080 You know, I would like for us to be able to have our child. 906 00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:17,720 And, you know, I know that's not possible, but now maybe it's going to be 907 00:55:17,720 --> 00:55:21,240 possible for her to be able to have a child, and it'll be able to be our 908 00:55:21,240 --> 00:55:22,218 child. 909 00:55:22,220 --> 00:55:25,380 Now that I have my act together in my life straight, you know, maybe I can 910 00:55:25,380 --> 00:55:31,460 help somebody else Susan has not been able to conceive 911 00:55:31,460 --> 00:55:34,640 John and Susan have decided to adopt a child 912 00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:41,080 Stephen has given up on being hired as a teacher. 913 00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:47,260 He is now a supervisor on a major construction site Kathy 914 00:55:47,260 --> 00:55:53,790 is starting a new life She is being trained in secretarial skills by a large 915 00:55:53,790 --> 00:55:54,790 company. 916 00:55:56,410 --> 00:55:58,690 Jody went back to work as a computer programmer. 917 00:55:59,050 --> 00:56:03,430 She is earning $10,000 a year less as a woman than she was as a man. 918 00:56:04,230 --> 00:56:07,650 For these people, the battle between the mind and the body is over. 919 00:56:08,050 --> 00:56:13,650 They are now the person they want to be. And for the transvestite, there are 920 00:56:13,650 --> 00:56:15,190 beginnings of self-acceptance. 921 00:56:16,210 --> 00:56:22,120 But for countless others who have to ask themselves, What sex am I? The struggle 922 00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:23,120 continues.