1
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Hi, I'm Pete Docter.
I was the director of <i>Inside Out.</i>

2
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Hi, my name
is Ronnie del Carmen.

3
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I'm the co-director of this amazing movie
from the mind of Pete Docter.

4
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You like it.

5
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No, no, no.
It was a very collaborative effort,

6
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and that's actually what we're going
to talk to you about today.

7
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Ronnie and I are gonna talk about
three things on this commentary track.

8
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History, invisible story
and cinematography.

9
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These are all things that
are pretty much just not apparent at all

10
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when you're watching the movie.
The first is history.

11
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Now, I know from personal experience
that when you're watching a film,

12
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it can seem like
it just appeared fully formed.

13
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And that's not true, is it, Ronnie?

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No, it's not actually.

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When we start,
it's just Pete and myself across a table

16
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telling each other stories,
not knowing where to start.

17
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What do you do?

18
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What do you feel should be
in this movie is a question.

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Yeah. So,
we'll talk a little about

20
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where it came from and the making of it.

21
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We're also going to talk about
invisible story elements.

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Now, there's a lot of things that we,
as filmmakers,

23
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worked really hard on
for months, even years,

24
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only to have them basically invisible
as you watch the film.

25
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Now, don't feel bad. This is intended.

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It's kind of like a magician.

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If you watched him practice
for seven months,

28
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the trick would be given away, right?

29
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So, this is an intended thing,

30
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but we're going to lift the hood a little
bit and let you look at the engine.

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The third is cinematography.

32
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Now, of course, to students
of live-action filmmaking,

33
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all this sort of talk of camera lenses
and camera placement and movement,

34
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that's part of
your everyday conversation.

35
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But a lot of people don't know
how much we in animation

36
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pay attention to that stuff as well.

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So, Ronnie had
a major contribution in that.

38
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We're also going to drag in

39
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our director of photography, Patrick Lin,
to talk for a bit.

40
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So, those will be, in a nutshell,

41
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the things that we're going to
be mentioning today.

42
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As well as a couple other
little nuggets of goodness.

43
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So, the film begins with a scene

44
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which I was actually
very much opposed to.

45
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It was a concept
that was brought up several times,

46
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that we would see the birth of our kid
and the emotion.

47
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Well, I was there with you

48
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because we were actually
starting this movie

49
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from when Riley
was about seven years old.

50
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Yeah.

51
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We were having a good
time doing that. It seemed to work.

52
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And then there was a note that said like,
"Oh, you know..."

53
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"What if we find out
when Joy started her job?"

54
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And the reason
I was against it is just

55
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it's, I think, in danger of becoming

56
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a cliché for us here at Pixar.

57
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We've done a lot of films
where we show them young,

58
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to get the audience on board,
and then we jump ahead.

59
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And I always feel like,
"Man, just cut to the chase."

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"I don't need to know
that this person grew up in Detroit"

61
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"in order to understand them..."

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"If we do our job right and you
have a good actor and everything."

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So, I was very much against
this whole thing.

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And I was with you, man.

65
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And then Ronnie goes off
and he boards this thing.

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I was trying to prove
that maybe it couldn't work.

67
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But there's no way to say no
to something until you see it.

68
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And once we started exploring it,
it felt like,

69
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"You know, this is kind of charming."

70
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And I come in
with my arms folded, like,

71
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"Let's see it
so I can say no to it."

72
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And then I totally fall in love with it.

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It's also sort of
the birth of Headquarters,

74
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and you see this dark space
that, through light, is revealed.

75
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We use this a couple times in the film
as the lighting in a sort of...

76
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Almost like a Broadway musical
or an MGM musical

77
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where the lighting defines that space
and it just falls off into darkness

78
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until the light hits it and it grows out.

79
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So, it ended up being a really cool way
of introducing Joy, what she's all about.

80
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And, again, even here,
most babies when they're born,

81
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the first thing they do is cry.

82
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So, we were really playing with that too.

83
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It was great actually
to introduce our two characters first.

84
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- Yeah.
- And it is going to be about them.

85
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Such a complex idea,
that this was a way

86
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of reducing and just saying,

87
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"Okay, it's about this baby and Joy."

88
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And even by the fact
that she's not crying says something,

89
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that this kid is unique.

90
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She is a joyful kid
and she's one of those kids,

91
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and we all have examples of these,
of kids that are just happy all the time.

92
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The voiceover here was another
thing I was against.

93
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Shows you what I know.

94
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I was thinking, "Okay, this is
a cheap, kind of cheat."

95
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"It's too easy. Let's dramatize it."

96
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We got to introduce the audience
to all this stuff through action

97
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as opposed to somebody,
blah-blah, telling us.

98
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As it turned out, I think it works because,

99
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A, Amy makes it so fun to listen to.

100
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B, it's actually kind of
fun information to learn.

101
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It doesn't feel like
you're at school or something.

102
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You're having a good time
taking it all in.

103
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And, C, it just makes it like,

104
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"Here's the information
you need to know to enjoy this film."

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- Yes.
- It's over quick.

106
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I thought we could
talk about the concept.

107
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So, we got together.

108
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It was Ronnie and me
and Michael Arndt, the writer,

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and Jonas Rivera.

110
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And we spent a couple days
up at the ranch.

111
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- Remember this? Skywalker Ranch.
- Yes, I do.

112
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We were there actually
working on another movie,

113
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and Pete had this idea
he wanted to pitch us.

114
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Yeah, so the basic concept
that I had at that point was

115
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the idea of emotions as characters.

116
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I had a lead female emotion that I think
I called Optimism at that time.

117
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Mmm-hmm.
And we had Joy and Fear.

118
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And from the get-go, it just felt like
this is an ensemble comedy.

119
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So, it's going to be all about
the interplay of these different guys

120
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and the way they talk
to each other and stuff.

121
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I remember Ronnie saying,

122
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"You know, if this is going to be
a movie about emotions,"

123
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"with the guys who made <i>Up,</i>
it had better be emotional."

124
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- You remember that?
- Yeah.

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- Most of it was a threat to ourselves.
- Yes.

126
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But to talk
about actual emotions,

127
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that's kind of trying to
elevate the game even higher.

128
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- So, that was a challenge.
- But it was fun.

129
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And I think the whole film
allowed for this freedom.

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It was a made-up world.
It didn't actually exist.

131
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And yet, everybody's familiar
with it in some way. Right?

132
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Everybody's thought about,
"Where do dreams come from,"

133
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"and how do I store my memories?"

134
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I don't know, maybe obliquely anyway,
people have thought about that.

135
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Yeah. Actually
I looked at it from the other side

136
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because I tend to be more pessimistic.

137
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The freedom that you were
talking about, Pete, to me was like,

138
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"Boy, we have so many options to go"

139
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"in trying to tell
this story about emotions."

140
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That is true.

141
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That it was
going to be so difficult

142
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to just contain it.

143
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There were so many avenues
to explore.

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And we knew that we actually
have to explore

145
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almost everything about this concept.

146
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And it was
quite a bear to tackle.

147
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So, at about that time, Ronnie,

148
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I remember you were dealing
with the empty nest syndrome.

149
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- Both kids were in college.
- Yes.

150
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My daughter was about 11,
and she was starting to get quiet.

151
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I remember telling you guys,
"We just talked to her teacher,"

152
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"and they said she's a quiet kid."

153
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I'm like, "What?
What kid are you talking about?"

154
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And Ronnie's like,
"Yeah, I know about that."

155
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And so we looked to Ronnie
as the expert in all this.

156
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I was the cautionary tale.

157
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Meanwhile, Jonas Rivera,

158
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the producer,
had three and five-year-old kids,

159
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I think, who were just screaming
and running around all day.

160
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We're both looking back, going,

161
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"Yeah, I remember that.
Those were good days."

162
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I know. So each of us
had sections of experience to tell

163
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about our character.

164
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I actually can see further ahead
because of having experienced it.

165
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Pete's right in the middle of it.

166
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Jonas and Josh Cooley
were right at the very beginning.

167
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So, as we started talking
about that, I was like,

168
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"Yeah, I remember that being
a really hard time for me, growing up."

169
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So, it was a really difficult time.

170
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And I was seeing my daughter
going into that and thinking,

171
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"Oh, boy, this is going to be hard."

172
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So, that really became
the emotional core of the movie.

173
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Yeah, which we took like a way

174
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to workshop our concept of the movie,

175
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is to use our own experiences
as a laboratory.

176
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Can I talk about that
one thing I was talking about earlier...

177
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Yeah, jump in.

178
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About questions I would get?

179
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"So, did you guys get a script"

180
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"and then people told you,
the story department,"

181
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"to just illustrate the script?"

182
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Yeah, that's how it works, right?

183
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No, that's not how it works.

184
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Most people think that
there's a genius person

185
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that's locked in an ivory tower,

186
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that's going to go
and write all three acts perfectly.

187
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I'd like to meet that guy.

188
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I'd like
to meet that person, yes.

189
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But what I do know is this is how we've
grown up making animated features,

190
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is that we don't start out with a script.

191
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Pete and I, when we started this movie,

192
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Pete would tell me
what he's yearning to see in this movie

193
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and experience in this movie.

194
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It would be a big list of things
that all of us would be excited about,

195
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but we don't know where to start.

196
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We don't know what to do
other than tell each other stories

197
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of maybe our lives, our families,
what we did when we were kids.

198
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I heard a lot of stories about you, Pete,
growing up in Minnesota...

199
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Mmm-hmm.

200
00:08:51,281 --> 00:08:55,076
As a basis
of what can we build with.

201
00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,930
Yeah, if there's something
that's meaningful and truthful to us,

202
00:08:57,954 --> 00:09:01,416
largely that'll help inform
possible directions to go in the stories.

203
00:09:01,499 --> 00:09:04,353
Yeah, like one of the
stories that I remember hearing from you

204
00:09:04,377 --> 00:09:08,214
is that your family had taken
a lot of summer vacations

205
00:09:08,298 --> 00:09:10,317
packed in a car, and you guys
would drive to California.

206
00:09:10,341 --> 00:09:11,342
Yup.

207
00:09:11,426 --> 00:09:12,862
How many times
did you guys do that?

208
00:09:12,886 --> 00:09:14,488
Uh, it was pretty much
once a year.

209
00:09:14,512 --> 00:09:16,449
- Once a year?
- Maybe once every other year.

210
00:09:16,473 --> 00:09:18,233
We always went on a lot
of road trips though.

211
00:09:18,266 --> 00:09:20,435
Yes, and you see that
in the movie

212
00:09:20,518 --> 00:09:22,520
when Riley's family gets in the car

213
00:09:22,604 --> 00:09:24,481
and they drive
all the way to San Francisco.

214
00:09:24,564 --> 00:09:26,042
- Yeah.
- And that's fascinating.

215
00:09:26,066 --> 00:09:29,277
We are the yokels who are
in charge of telling the story.

216
00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,196
- Yeah.
- This is all you got.

217
00:09:33,656 --> 00:09:35,325
What we're going to be coming up with

218
00:09:35,408 --> 00:09:37,952
is what will eventually show up
in the movie.

219
00:09:38,036 --> 00:09:40,455
And it starts with telling stories
to each other

220
00:09:40,538 --> 00:09:42,082
and then drawing out characters.

221
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Pete had drawn all the emotions.

222
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These marker drawings,
very quick, shapes.

223
00:09:46,669 --> 00:09:48,088
Anger was this box character

224
00:09:48,171 --> 00:09:50,423
with his eyes glowering at you
at the top of his head,

225
00:09:50,507 --> 00:09:52,026
and there's smoke
coming out of his head.

226
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That's the basis of Anger
that you see now in the movie.

227
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It would seem like
every day and very common,

228
00:09:59,557 --> 00:10:03,144
just another person drawing
on a white piece of paper.

229
00:10:03,353 --> 00:10:06,773
And will that turn into a movie?
We don't know.

230
00:10:06,856 --> 00:10:08,876
Some of the elements did
and other ones didn't.

231
00:10:08,900 --> 00:10:11,277
And I always feel like having an idea

232
00:10:11,361 --> 00:10:14,614
is like whistling
on the steps of Carnegie Hall.

233
00:10:14,697 --> 00:10:17,450
That's not going to get you on stage,
just 'cause you whistle nicely.

234
00:10:17,534 --> 00:10:20,954
You got to practice, put in tons of hours,
work for years and years.

235
00:10:21,037 --> 00:10:24,124
And that's Ronnie and Josh
and the whole Story crew,

236
00:10:24,207 --> 00:10:25,959
various writers,
all these amazing people

237
00:10:26,042 --> 00:10:29,629
who are contributing an embarrassment
of riches to this thing.

238
00:10:29,712 --> 00:10:33,424
And you'll take one idea out of
a thousand that make it in the movie.

239
00:10:33,508 --> 00:10:34,860
That is very accurate.

240
00:10:34,884 --> 00:10:38,763
We try many ways to actually illustrate,
draw and tell the story.

241
00:10:38,847 --> 00:10:42,892
We have more stories to tell
about this amazing concept

242
00:10:42,976 --> 00:10:44,811
than we can fit into an hour and a half.

243
00:10:44,894 --> 00:10:46,563
And that may be obvious
to some people,

244
00:10:46,646 --> 00:10:50,984
but if you think about the concept,
how vast it is,

245
00:10:51,067 --> 00:10:55,530
we had even more exploration
than we really could afford to do,

246
00:10:55,613 --> 00:10:57,365
but we did it anyway.

247
00:10:57,448 --> 00:11:01,494
Because there was no way to be sure
that we are actually using

248
00:11:01,578 --> 00:11:05,498
every part of this concept
to the best effect.

249
00:11:05,582 --> 00:11:09,252
So, there's stories that we had explored,
it would be...

250
00:11:09,335 --> 00:11:10,771
You remember
when we explored the mind

251
00:11:10,795 --> 00:11:12,731
and one of the things
that you were fascinated with was,

252
00:11:12,755 --> 00:11:14,716
"Why is it that human beings
can remember faces"

253
00:11:14,966 --> 00:11:16,342
"but not remember names?"

254
00:11:16,426 --> 00:11:18,511
Oh, yeah,
the names and faces gag.

255
00:11:18,595 --> 00:11:19,780
Yeah.

256
00:11:19,804 --> 00:11:22,324
We had envisioned that
there are two different departments,

257
00:11:22,348 --> 00:11:23,409
and they don't like each other.

258
00:11:23,433 --> 00:11:24,434
That's right.

259
00:11:24,517 --> 00:11:26,060
Faces, they were very organized,

260
00:11:26,144 --> 00:11:29,647
and the Names guys were like,
"Uh, where did we put that stuff?"

261
00:11:29,731 --> 00:11:32,025
"Let's check in that sort of blue pile
over there."

262
00:11:32,108 --> 00:11:33,502
"I think it's over there."

263
00:11:33,526 --> 00:11:36,613
"Yeah, it's right
over there. Just shuffle around."

264
00:11:37,447 --> 00:11:39,657
"Move that shelf. It's somewhere there."

265
00:11:39,741 --> 00:11:43,161
And we were laughing.
We were having such a great time.

266
00:11:43,244 --> 00:11:45,514
- But it didn't stay in the movie.
- Didn't make it.

267
00:11:45,538 --> 00:11:46,891
Even though we were enjoying it.

268
00:11:46,915 --> 00:11:47,999
That's right.

269
00:11:48,082 --> 00:11:49,768
Josh and I were
talking about it yesterday,

270
00:11:49,792 --> 00:11:53,671
about when at one point
the punchline of the joke

271
00:11:53,755 --> 00:11:57,800
is that they were eating Chinese food
in takeout boxes.

272
00:11:57,884 --> 00:12:00,220
I was like, "This is really funny."

273
00:12:01,095 --> 00:12:04,432
Wait. Where did they get
the Chinese from?

274
00:12:04,515 --> 00:12:05,558
Yeah.

275
00:12:05,642 --> 00:12:07,953
Does this mean that
when we go outside of the Mind World,

276
00:12:07,977 --> 00:12:12,857
there's going to be Chinese restaurants
or Italian restaurants, burger joints?

277
00:12:12,941 --> 00:12:14,359
Um...

278
00:12:14,901 --> 00:12:16,402
That may be too much. Who knows?

279
00:12:16,486 --> 00:12:19,072
Yeah. So we tried it all.

280
00:12:19,906 --> 00:12:21,800
All right, let's talk a little bit
about cinematography.

281
00:12:21,824 --> 00:12:24,535
- We've dragged Patrick Lin in here.
- Hello.

282
00:12:24,619 --> 00:12:26,955
Patrick is our
DP in charge of layout.

283
00:12:27,038 --> 00:12:28,706
So, of course, the way layout works

284
00:12:28,790 --> 00:12:31,459
is you guys just take
the storyboards from Story

285
00:12:31,542 --> 00:12:34,087
and make that framing, right?

286
00:12:34,170 --> 00:12:36,047
Yeah, exactly. DOCTER: No.

287
00:12:36,130 --> 00:12:37,191
No, it doesn't work that way.

288
00:12:37,215 --> 00:12:38,525
Almost we can
push a button and do it.

289
00:12:38,549 --> 00:12:39,652
Yeah, it's that easy.

290
00:12:39,676 --> 00:12:42,404
You're being facetious,
of course, because that's not quite it.

291
00:12:42,428 --> 00:12:45,515
Layout is in charge of actually,
for me anyway,

292
00:12:45,598 --> 00:12:50,561
experiencing what the actual movie
will look and feel like

293
00:12:50,645 --> 00:12:53,106
using cameras and the actual sets,

294
00:12:53,189 --> 00:12:54,983
the actual size of the characters,

295
00:12:55,066 --> 00:12:58,736
the limitations of their movement
and how fast the camera can move

296
00:12:58,820 --> 00:12:59,838
all starts becoming clear...

297
00:12:59,862 --> 00:13:00,947
Or not move.

298
00:13:01,030 --> 00:13:02,240
Or not move, yeah.

299
00:13:02,323 --> 00:13:04,158
Stillness also means something.

300
00:13:04,242 --> 00:13:08,997
Yeah, without that,
and if you follow just the board slavishly,

301
00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,499
it would be a big holy mess.

302
00:13:11,582 --> 00:13:13,793
So then why do you bother
to draw it at all?

303
00:13:13,876 --> 00:13:18,464
Ah, drawing and story
is about storytelling and character

304
00:13:18,548 --> 00:13:23,469
and trying to uncover what is authentic,
what is funny,

305
00:13:23,553 --> 00:13:26,306
and what is meaningful
in our characters.

306
00:13:26,389 --> 00:13:28,141
We test that in Story
over and over again.

307
00:13:28,224 --> 00:13:29,267
Drawing is cheap,

308
00:13:29,350 --> 00:13:31,537
so we can actually draw
these characters over and over again

309
00:13:31,561 --> 00:13:33,855
and throw out the bad ideas,
keep the good ones.

310
00:13:33,938 --> 00:13:35,648
That's an oversimplification.

311
00:13:35,732 --> 00:13:39,360
But we don't have to
think about the sets literally.

312
00:13:39,444 --> 00:13:42,822
We will put in a stand-in version
of the set in our minds

313
00:13:42,905 --> 00:13:45,199
and draw it kind of loosely.

314
00:13:45,283 --> 00:13:47,327
We don't have to
be too slavish with that.

315
00:13:47,410 --> 00:13:49,120
We want to discover the story there.

316
00:13:49,203 --> 00:13:52,457
In Layout,
you guys are actually handling

317
00:13:52,540 --> 00:13:55,043
the physical reality of the movie.

318
00:13:55,126 --> 00:13:58,004
Yeah, but we digest
what you give us.

319
00:13:58,087 --> 00:14:00,506
We take the essence of it
as our foundation,

320
00:14:00,590 --> 00:14:02,008
and we build it up from there.

321
00:14:02,091 --> 00:14:05,178
Yeah, Layout is part of
our storytelling team

322
00:14:05,261 --> 00:14:07,388
that wants to make sure
that the storytelling

323
00:14:07,472 --> 00:14:09,700
and the characters
and their emotions that's in our reels

324
00:14:09,724 --> 00:14:11,642
start their journey being translated.

325
00:14:11,726 --> 00:14:13,519
So, they're storytellers as well

326
00:14:13,603 --> 00:14:17,023
and they're guardians of
what is happening in the story reel.

327
00:14:17,106 --> 00:14:19,251
You want to just talk a little
about the camera work,

328
00:14:19,275 --> 00:14:23,571
the sort of rules you guys set up
between Headquarters inside the mind

329
00:14:23,654 --> 00:14:25,782
and Riley's world outside?

330
00:14:25,865 --> 00:14:29,369
Sure. Yeah, one thing
I love about the <i>Inside Out</i> world

331
00:14:29,452 --> 00:14:32,580
is the contrast between
the inside and the outside world.

332
00:14:32,663 --> 00:14:34,707
So, there's a camera structure
that we developed

333
00:14:34,791 --> 00:14:36,334
that is based on that contrast.

334
00:14:36,417 --> 00:14:37,418
Uh-huh.

335
00:14:37,502 --> 00:14:40,254
We developed two
very distinct visual styles,

336
00:14:40,338 --> 00:14:42,840
one for the inside world
and one for the outside world.

337
00:14:42,924 --> 00:14:44,926
For the outside world...
The idea is pretty simple.

338
00:14:45,009 --> 00:14:49,347
For the outside world, it's real locations,
so it should be very realistic.

339
00:14:49,430 --> 00:14:50,848
The camera movement, everything...

340
00:14:50,932 --> 00:14:52,242
Everything Steadicam kind of...

341
00:14:52,266 --> 00:14:53,309
Yeah, Steadicam.

342
00:14:53,393 --> 00:14:55,603
It should be flawed too
'cause real world is flawed.

343
00:14:55,686 --> 00:15:00,274
The inside is an imagined world.
So, it could be perfect and virtual.

344
00:15:00,358 --> 00:15:03,528
So, for the outside world, we tend to
use more camera movements

345
00:15:03,653 --> 00:15:06,864
such as Steadicams
and hand-held cameras,

346
00:15:07,448 --> 00:15:09,700
and the inside is very structured.

347
00:15:09,784 --> 00:15:13,079
Usually, it's more like a studio camera
with track and crane,

348
00:15:13,162 --> 00:15:15,581
a very controlled type
of camera movement.

349
00:15:15,665 --> 00:15:18,167
I remember you talking
about classic Hollywood films

350
00:15:18,251 --> 00:15:19,669
from the '40s and stuff.

351
00:15:19,752 --> 00:15:21,796
Yeah, in Act 1, inside world,

352
00:15:21,879 --> 00:15:25,383
we tend to treat the camera
as really big.

353
00:15:25,466 --> 00:15:29,178
And so the movement
and how we use the crane,

354
00:15:29,262 --> 00:15:33,349
everything is very controlled
and a little bit slower.

355
00:15:33,599 --> 00:15:36,602
When we move to Act 2 and Act 3,

356
00:15:36,686 --> 00:15:38,247
we treat the camera
as a more modern camera.

357
00:15:38,271 --> 00:15:39,272
Mmm-hmm.

358
00:15:39,355 --> 00:15:41,955
So, it's smaller and
the track and crane moves a lot quicker.

359
00:15:42,024 --> 00:15:44,694
It's still very controlled,
it's still on track and crane,

360
00:15:46,571 --> 00:15:48,173
but the pan and tilt is much quicker
to follow the actions,

361
00:15:48,197 --> 00:15:51,868
just so that there's a progression
from act one to act two to act three.

362
00:15:51,951 --> 00:15:54,287
On the outside, we started off...

363
00:15:54,370 --> 00:15:58,458
Whenever we move the camera,
we tend to use Steadicam.

364
00:15:58,541 --> 00:15:59,792
Mmm-hmm.

365
00:15:59,876 --> 00:16:03,421
Riley's growing up,
everything is very happy, kind of lyrical.

366
00:16:03,504 --> 00:16:05,298
And when we get to Act 2,

367
00:16:05,381 --> 00:16:09,594
that is when her emotions start to get
clamped down and become unstable.

368
00:16:09,677 --> 00:16:12,054
So, we changed
the camera style right there.

369
00:16:12,138 --> 00:16:15,099
So, we basically put the camera
on a tripod,

370
00:16:15,183 --> 00:16:17,852
and the only movement
that comes from the camera

371
00:16:17,935 --> 00:16:19,312
is the pan and tilt on lock head.

372
00:16:19,395 --> 00:16:20,438
Mmm-hmm.

373
00:16:20,521 --> 00:16:23,566
It's just to emphasize
Riley's unstable emotions.

374
00:16:23,649 --> 00:16:24,650
Hmm.

375
00:16:24,734 --> 00:16:25,985
And when we get to Act 3,

376
00:16:26,068 --> 00:16:29,947
then we take the intensity up a little bit
when we go hand-held.

377
00:16:30,031 --> 00:16:33,034
So, in some sense, the worlds
kind of come together a little bit.

378
00:16:33,117 --> 00:16:35,453
Yeah, so I think during
Act 1 and Act 2,

379
00:16:35,536 --> 00:16:38,247
both worlds have very distinct
camera movement styles.

380
00:16:38,331 --> 00:16:40,333
And I think the payoff is in Act 3

381
00:16:40,416 --> 00:16:43,669
when we're cutting back and forth
really quick between the two worlds.

382
00:16:43,753 --> 00:16:45,838
And that's when the intensity
comes to a crash.

383
00:16:45,922 --> 00:16:47,673
Also, it's both worlds coming together.

384
00:16:47,757 --> 00:16:48,758
Mmm-hmm.

385
00:16:49,467 --> 00:16:52,970
Ronnie and I worked with Patrick
on <i>Up</i> as well, which is fun.

386
00:16:53,054 --> 00:16:55,014
Because now when we get to this one,

387
00:16:55,097 --> 00:16:58,976
we kind of know what each other
are thinking and how to work together.

388
00:16:59,060 --> 00:17:01,395
You guys just talk about
how to toss this back and forth

389
00:17:01,479 --> 00:17:04,649
from story and boards to layout,
like that transition?

390
00:17:04,732 --> 00:17:07,985
Yeah, well, in Story,
we kind of have a general intention

391
00:17:08,069 --> 00:17:10,196
of what to feature.

392
00:17:10,279 --> 00:17:12,740
A lot of the times,
we probably have to just feature

393
00:17:12,823 --> 00:17:14,663
the characters right in the center
of the frame

394
00:17:14,700 --> 00:17:16,285
just to be able to tell the story.

395
00:17:16,369 --> 00:17:19,163
But because Patrick and I
worked before,

396
00:17:19,247 --> 00:17:21,707
we know that by the time
we get to layout,

397
00:17:21,791 --> 00:17:23,268
we know that we're going to make sure

398
00:17:23,292 --> 00:17:28,214
that we feature the cutting, framing
and the camera work to be very specific.

399
00:17:28,297 --> 00:17:30,299
For us, it's like screen direction.

400
00:17:30,383 --> 00:17:33,886
When you leave Headquarters,
we have to go to screen right.

401
00:17:33,970 --> 00:17:36,448
And if the characters are trying to
make their way back to Headquarters,

402
00:17:36,472 --> 00:17:37,824
they're going to go to screen left.

403
00:17:37,848 --> 00:17:40,008
Just in general.
We break that rule every now and then,

404
00:17:40,059 --> 00:17:42,311
but in the aggregate,
that's what we want to do.

405
00:17:42,395 --> 00:17:44,939
Then we had to design
the set to basically support that.

406
00:17:45,022 --> 00:17:47,733
- That was involving the art department.
- Yes.

407
00:17:47,817 --> 00:17:49,902
So we had those rules
very early in Story,

408
00:17:49,986 --> 00:17:52,989
and I conferred with Patrick
all along the process.

409
00:17:53,072 --> 00:17:54,365
That's how we worked in <i>Up.</i>

410
00:17:54,448 --> 00:17:57,201
We started very early,
when we were still storyboarding,

411
00:17:57,285 --> 00:18:00,162
designing the camera
and the film language.

412
00:18:00,246 --> 00:18:01,515
But going back
to what you're saying

413
00:18:01,539 --> 00:18:03,416
about we always draw
something in the center,

414
00:18:03,499 --> 00:18:05,876
that actually helped me in this film.

415
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:10,464
'Cause Riley is always drawn
in the center, flanked by the parents.

416
00:18:10,548 --> 00:18:15,011
I actually took that as how Riley
sees her as always in the center.

417
00:18:15,094 --> 00:18:18,347
So, I actually used that
when she got disconnected.

418
00:18:18,431 --> 00:18:20,766
When she feels disconnected
from the parents,

419
00:18:20,850 --> 00:18:23,227
- I just physically move her to the side.
- Mmm-hmm.

420
00:18:23,311 --> 00:18:25,771
- It was all planned.
- Yeah.

421
00:18:25,855 --> 00:18:27,189
It was all planned.

422
00:18:27,273 --> 00:18:31,235
Same with the first time
you pitched me Memory Dump.

423
00:18:31,319 --> 00:18:34,113
You said, "Keep this shot for Joy",

424
00:18:34,196 --> 00:18:36,699
"to be the closest shot
when she learned her lesson."

425
00:18:36,782 --> 00:18:37,783
Yeah, right.

426
00:18:37,867 --> 00:18:39,577
So I kind of take that idea

427
00:18:39,660 --> 00:18:42,747
and what if I have
some adult-type cameras

428
00:18:42,830 --> 00:18:45,082
when I frame the parents

429
00:18:45,166 --> 00:18:48,628
when Riley was born,
when Dad is yelling at Riley.

430
00:18:48,711 --> 00:18:50,713
Those are all parents' things
that they're doing.

431
00:18:50,796 --> 00:18:54,216
What if those are super-tight close-up
to represent adulthood,

432
00:18:54,300 --> 00:18:58,429
and I never get close to Joy
until the moment she learns?

433
00:18:58,512 --> 00:19:01,199
That's when we push in for the close-up,
and that's when she grows up.

434
00:19:01,223 --> 00:19:02,224
"See?"

435
00:19:03,392 --> 00:19:06,979
And at the end,
when Riley is embracing the parents,

436
00:19:07,063 --> 00:19:10,066
that's when we go in the tightest shot
of her and that's when she grows up.

437
00:19:10,149 --> 00:19:12,860
- So all those just come together.
- "Oh, there you go."

438
00:19:12,943 --> 00:19:16,155
See, there's method
in what seemingly is madness.

439
00:19:16,238 --> 00:19:18,240
But actually,
like Pete was saying earlier,

440
00:19:18,324 --> 00:19:19,492
a lot of it is invisible.

441
00:19:19,575 --> 00:19:21,720
If you start to notice it,
then I think we did a bad job.

442
00:19:21,744 --> 00:19:22,824
Yeah. LIN: Mmm-hmm.

443
00:19:22,870 --> 00:19:24,830
When we were telling the story,

444
00:19:24,914 --> 00:19:29,126
we had done only a few sequences
that we started to fall in love with.

445
00:19:29,210 --> 00:19:31,545
One of them was dinner
and the other one was Memory Dump

446
00:19:31,629 --> 00:19:36,676
where Joy learns the biggest lesson
that she has to learn in her journey.

447
00:19:36,759 --> 00:19:40,304
And it felt like we should be close to her

448
00:19:40,388 --> 00:19:44,934
when she is essentially owning up
to what mistakes she's made

449
00:19:45,059 --> 00:19:48,104
and trying to understand
what she's learning out of that.

450
00:19:48,187 --> 00:19:53,859
And when we did that, it felt like
we had to be so intimate with her.

451
00:19:53,943 --> 00:19:58,197
But I love what you're talking about,
that you also related that to the parents,

452
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,574
so you used that same camera work.

453
00:20:02,410 --> 00:20:04,638
Yeah, that framing,
more structure and more meaning.

454
00:20:04,662 --> 00:20:06,163
- Fascinating.
- Yeah.

455
00:20:07,456 --> 00:20:09,583
Patrick,
is there any shot in particular

456
00:20:09,667 --> 00:20:11,228
that you feel you're especially proud of,

457
00:20:11,252 --> 00:20:14,004
that's kind of
invisible and not noticed by...

458
00:20:14,088 --> 00:20:16,369
Uh... This shot we're watching
right now. Joy's plan.

459
00:20:16,757 --> 00:20:21,220
I think this is one of the more
complicated shots I've ever built.

460
00:20:21,303 --> 00:20:24,223
Uh, it is one of the moving master shots,

461
00:20:24,306 --> 00:20:27,852
and it is very long, extended length,

462
00:20:27,935 --> 00:20:30,896
but instead of using cuts
to create energy,

463
00:20:30,980 --> 00:20:34,400
we used character blocking and staging
to create that energy,

464
00:20:34,483 --> 00:20:36,402
with the character moving
around the camera.

465
00:20:36,485 --> 00:20:37,778
And there's a rhythm to it too.

466
00:20:37,862 --> 00:20:41,365
You first start with a wide shot,
we go into two medium shots,

467
00:20:41,449 --> 00:20:43,033
with Joy and Fear talking.

468
00:20:43,117 --> 00:20:48,247
And it goes into two full shots,
with Joy and Disgust.

469
00:20:48,330 --> 00:20:52,752
And then there's evolution
throughout the shots and staging.

470
00:20:54,628 --> 00:20:57,923
And also character, too.
Go from one to two to five,

471
00:20:58,007 --> 00:20:59,925
and then goes back to just Joy.

472
00:21:00,009 --> 00:21:03,512
There's a good rhythm to it,
and it was a hard shot to build.

473
00:21:03,846 --> 00:21:05,365
- It took me two weeks to build.
- Yeah.

474
00:21:05,389 --> 00:21:08,392
So you guys built the whole thing,
then Animation came in, right?

475
00:21:08,476 --> 00:21:11,145
Did you guys cycle through
with Animation?

476
00:21:11,228 --> 00:21:13,540
No, I think Travis did a really
good job following the timing.

477
00:21:13,564 --> 00:21:14,607
Oh, okay.

478
00:21:14,690 --> 00:21:17,443
- 'Cause it was how Kevin cuts it too.
- Right.

479
00:21:17,526 --> 00:21:20,946
It was really tightly timed
and there's a good rhythm to it.

480
00:21:21,030 --> 00:21:26,494
Yeah, in general, we didn't
allow the animation staff a lot of leeway

481
00:21:26,577 --> 00:21:31,332
because the comedy of this really
necessitated a certain rhythm to things.

482
00:21:31,415 --> 00:21:34,460
So, we couldn't just put extra frames in.

483
00:21:34,543 --> 00:21:36,962
Not one frame. No, not two...

484
00:21:37,046 --> 00:21:38,106
Can I have two more frames?

485
00:21:38,130 --> 00:21:39,232
They kind of got mad
at us sometimes.

486
00:21:39,256 --> 00:21:41,342
No, Pete has to say no.

487
00:21:41,425 --> 00:21:44,470
- And Kevin has to raise his hand up.
- "No, it would ruin the..."

488
00:21:45,679 --> 00:21:47,365
- It ruined the whole movie.
- No.

489
00:21:47,389 --> 00:21:48,682
The whole movie.

490
00:21:48,766 --> 00:21:52,144
But you give animation
a lot of breathing room,

491
00:21:52,228 --> 00:21:55,731
because being an animator yourself,
you know where the opportunities are,

492
00:21:55,815 --> 00:21:57,817
and when it's time
to actually give a frame,

493
00:21:57,900 --> 00:22:00,152
or two or five here and there.

494
00:22:00,236 --> 00:22:02,613
But this one shot,
when we were talking about it,

495
00:22:02,696 --> 00:22:03,856
we were inspired by a lot of.

496
00:22:03,906 --> 00:22:08,202
Vincente Minnelli
direction and musicals.

497
00:22:08,285 --> 00:22:09,912
Like <i>Singin' in the Rain.</i>

498
00:22:09,995 --> 00:22:14,542
And it felt like this would be our chance
to do a shot like that.

499
00:22:14,625 --> 00:22:16,961
Yeah, I'm inspired by Kurosawa.

500
00:22:17,044 --> 00:22:22,550
Those moving master shots
like in <i>The Bad Sleep Well.</i>

501
00:22:22,633 --> 00:22:26,011
There's something classy about it.
It's easier to do cuts.

502
00:22:26,095 --> 00:22:29,098
It would probably take me half
the time to do all the shots.

503
00:22:29,181 --> 00:22:32,560
But this is like so much more
elegant and classy.

504
00:22:32,643 --> 00:22:35,604
I know. I wish we could
do more of those in the movie.

505
00:22:35,688 --> 00:22:38,065
It's funny.
There is a sort of rhythm to cutting

506
00:22:38,148 --> 00:22:40,025
and a comedy to cutting
that you get used to.

507
00:22:40,109 --> 00:22:41,110
Mmm-hmm.

508
00:22:41,193 --> 00:22:45,030
And sometimes it's hard
to create that without that rhythm of,

509
00:22:45,114 --> 00:22:46,532
you know, bang, bang, bang, bang!

510
00:22:46,615 --> 00:22:48,200
There's kind of a surprise, even.

511
00:22:48,284 --> 00:22:50,619
One of the staples of
character animation is

512
00:22:50,703 --> 00:22:53,122
it's fun to see an expression change.

513
00:22:53,205 --> 00:22:56,458
So to go from happy
to depressed or something.

514
00:22:56,542 --> 00:22:59,253
But sometimes
the cutting will give you that.

515
00:22:59,336 --> 00:23:01,046
So you cut away from the character,

516
00:23:01,130 --> 00:23:02,770
and, then, bang,
by the time you cut back,

517
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,383
they're already in the depressed face.

518
00:23:04,466 --> 00:23:06,093
You don't watch them melt and that's...

519
00:23:06,176 --> 00:23:09,722
There's something kind of funny
about the surprise of that, sometimes.

520
00:23:09,805 --> 00:23:11,640
Anyway, not to argue your point at all.

521
00:23:11,724 --> 00:23:14,369
It's just, I think, there's a lot of
different ways to shoot things.

522
00:23:14,393 --> 00:23:15,453
Yeah. Sometimes it works.

523
00:23:15,477 --> 00:23:18,564
We also tried that at the end,
in the epilogue,

524
00:23:18,647 --> 00:23:21,275
when they are coming up
to the console...

525
00:23:21,358 --> 00:23:24,612
- Yeah.
- And we tried that in one shot, too.

526
00:23:24,695 --> 00:23:26,464
But the energy
just doesn't really feel right.

527
00:23:26,488 --> 00:23:27,966
- It drags things down.
- Yeah.

528
00:23:27,990 --> 00:23:31,118
In that case, you know,
the cutting works.

529
00:23:31,201 --> 00:23:34,163
- But I was... We tried it...
- Yeah.

530
00:23:34,246 --> 00:23:35,515
There's different ways of doing it.

531
00:23:35,539 --> 00:23:37,041
Excellent. LIN: Yeah.

532
00:23:37,124 --> 00:23:38,768
All right.
Well, thanks, Patrick. That was great.

533
00:23:38,792 --> 00:23:40,461
Thank you for
having me on the show.

534
00:23:40,544 --> 00:23:42,296
- Thank you.
- All right.

535
00:23:42,379 --> 00:23:46,133
Okay. So let's talk about
some practical filmmaking things.

536
00:23:46,216 --> 00:23:49,428
One of the difficulties
of this whole concept

537
00:23:49,511 --> 00:23:52,598
is that the main relationship
that's at stake,

538
00:23:52,681 --> 00:23:56,018
Joy and Riley,
do not exist in the same world,

539
00:23:56,101 --> 00:23:59,355
and therefore
cannot be seen onscreen together.

540
00:23:59,438 --> 00:24:00,498
That is correct.

541
00:24:00,522 --> 00:24:02,042
Ronnie, you struggled with that

542
00:24:02,107 --> 00:24:03,668
and came up
with a bunch of different things.

543
00:24:03,692 --> 00:24:05,361
You wanna talk about any of the ideas?

544
00:24:05,444 --> 00:24:06,671
Yeah, we were always wondering,

545
00:24:06,695 --> 00:24:10,991
because Pete has loads of experience
of making <i>Toy Story.</i>

546
00:24:11,075 --> 00:24:14,286
The relationship of Woody to Andy
is very challenging.

547
00:24:14,370 --> 00:24:16,848
When you watch it, it feels like,
"Well, of course, it's beautiful."

548
00:24:16,872 --> 00:24:19,625
All the <i>Toy Story</i> movies,
you already know the rules,

549
00:24:19,708 --> 00:24:21,603
but here we were trying to
make up our own rules.

550
00:24:21,627 --> 00:24:23,087
And it was doubly hard

551
00:24:23,170 --> 00:24:25,798
because we cannot have
the two characters

552
00:24:25,881 --> 00:24:29,093
be in the same actual reality,
the same plane, together.

553
00:24:29,176 --> 00:24:30,236
Yeah, you're right.

554
00:24:30,260 --> 00:24:32,805
<i>Toy Story,</i> Woody couldn't be alive
in front of Andy,

555
00:24:32,888 --> 00:24:35,349
but at least he could hug him
and they could be together.

556
00:24:35,432 --> 00:24:37,518
In this movie
they can't even see each other.

557
00:24:37,601 --> 00:24:40,854
And not only that,
Woody can actually move objects

558
00:24:40,938 --> 00:24:45,484
and influence events
and the environment around Andy.

559
00:24:46,068 --> 00:24:48,779
Joy has no such luxury.

560
00:24:48,862 --> 00:24:52,157
And we were struggling on how to
actually make that happen.

561
00:24:52,241 --> 00:24:54,284
One of the things that we had right away

562
00:24:54,368 --> 00:24:56,537
was that front viewing screen.

563
00:24:56,620 --> 00:24:59,999
That they were actually going to
see the world through Riley's eyes.

564
00:25:00,082 --> 00:25:05,337
But Riley would never be in that view,
unless she was staring at a mirror.

565
00:25:05,421 --> 00:25:06,797
So we were, maybe...

566
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:08,984
Well, maybe she'll be staring
at mirrors all the time.

567
00:25:09,008 --> 00:25:10,568
Yeah, we thought
about having glass

568
00:25:10,592 --> 00:25:12,136
and reflective surfaces everywhere.

569
00:25:12,219 --> 00:25:14,972
Any kind of visual cue
to make Riley show up

570
00:25:15,055 --> 00:25:17,683
on that inside Headquarters.

571
00:25:17,766 --> 00:25:20,561
And that was very contrived
after a couple of tries.

572
00:25:21,603 --> 00:25:22,747
And then one of the things that we have

573
00:25:22,771 --> 00:25:25,357
also as an element in the movie
are memories.

574
00:25:25,441 --> 00:25:29,278
We had memories with Riley in them.

575
00:25:29,361 --> 00:25:33,198
So that if you play a memory
of Riley on the front screen,

576
00:25:33,282 --> 00:25:35,743
Riley would be in the room, so to speak.

577
00:25:35,826 --> 00:25:40,247
And that was the closest
that we can get Joy to Riley.

578
00:25:40,330 --> 00:25:43,375
Play a memory of Riley
there on the screen.

579
00:25:43,459 --> 00:25:48,005
Joy, when everybody's asleep, can
kind of walk up to the screen and talk.

580
00:25:48,088 --> 00:25:50,549
It's a one-way conversation albeit,

581
00:25:50,632 --> 00:25:54,803
but still it was the only way
that she can express how she feels,

582
00:25:54,887 --> 00:25:58,182
what her goals are, what her hopes are,
to that Riley on the screen.

583
00:25:58,265 --> 00:26:01,161
In fact, the skating scene was
something that Ronnie came up with,

584
00:26:01,185 --> 00:26:05,230
a way of getting the two of them
on the screen at the same time.

585
00:26:05,314 --> 00:26:08,400
Joy is replaying this memory
and Joy has seen it so many times,

586
00:26:08,484 --> 00:26:10,611
she can perform along with it.

587
00:26:10,694 --> 00:26:13,405
And it's a chance for her
to be with her kid,

588
00:26:13,489 --> 00:26:15,133
in a way that she can't
really in real life.

589
00:26:15,157 --> 00:26:16,867
So it's a really beautiful scene.

590
00:26:16,950 --> 00:26:18,428
The other interesting thing about that is,

591
00:26:18,452 --> 00:26:20,746
as Joy turns the nightmare off,

592
00:26:20,829 --> 00:26:23,582
she looks up at the screen
and we cut to Riley.

593
00:26:23,665 --> 00:26:26,376
And we cut back to Joy,
and she has this sort of pained look,

594
00:26:26,460 --> 00:26:28,545
and she says,
"I'm not gonna end the day like this."

595
00:26:28,629 --> 00:26:30,130
All that sort of magic of cutting,

596
00:26:30,214 --> 00:26:32,758
which, of course,
doesn't really mean anything in real life,

597
00:26:32,841 --> 00:26:34,885
if you think about it,
she didn't see Riley.

598
00:26:34,968 --> 00:26:36,553
But through the miracle of editing,

599
00:26:36,637 --> 00:26:39,223
we sort of
imply that this connection is made.

600
00:26:39,306 --> 00:26:42,226
And that's something
we do throughout the film.

601
00:26:42,309 --> 00:26:44,478
Thank goodness for film language

602
00:26:44,561 --> 00:26:46,897
that was figured out years
and years ago.

603
00:26:47,231 --> 00:26:48,107
Dinner.

604
00:26:48,190 --> 00:26:50,526
This was the first scene
that was approved.

605
00:26:50,609 --> 00:26:53,946
It was approved like three years
before the film was done.

606
00:26:54,029 --> 00:26:56,281
And Ronnie boarded
and wrote most of this.

607
00:26:56,365 --> 00:26:57,592
This was very early.

608
00:26:57,616 --> 00:26:59,660
We didn't even have
Kevin Nolting in yet.

609
00:26:59,743 --> 00:27:00,994
We didn't have Josh yet.

610
00:27:01,078 --> 00:27:03,789
And Pete and I were riffing on
what would dinner be like.

611
00:27:03,872 --> 00:27:06,125
And how can we cut from three heads,

612
00:27:06,208 --> 00:27:09,837
inside and outside
three sets of emotions.

613
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,297
And I started workshopping with Pete.

614
00:27:12,381 --> 00:27:14,383
Pete's office is right next to me.

615
00:27:14,466 --> 00:27:16,093
This is the same way that we did <i>Up.</i>

616
00:27:16,176 --> 00:27:18,345
So I would write and sketch and draw,

617
00:27:18,428 --> 00:27:20,848
and then I would go
and barge into his office and pitch.

618
00:27:20,931 --> 00:27:23,642
And, then, if it's fun and funny,
then okay, that's encouragement.

619
00:27:23,725 --> 00:27:24,852
I can go back to my room.

620
00:27:24,935 --> 00:27:27,372
And then he would build on it,
and then he would come into my room,

621
00:27:27,396 --> 00:27:29,606
"Okay! What if he said
this, that and the other thing?"

622
00:27:29,690 --> 00:27:32,818
So both of us were trying
to make this sequence, dinner,

623
00:27:32,901 --> 00:27:35,863
just the germ of it, to happen as a pitch.

624
00:27:35,946 --> 00:27:36,989
Yeah.

625
00:27:37,072 --> 00:27:39,300
I was just looking at the first version,
where they were humanoid.

626
00:27:39,324 --> 00:27:40,385
They were human characters.

627
00:27:40,409 --> 00:27:41,553
They were totally different.

628
00:27:41,577 --> 00:27:43,495
Yeah, we thought of
these characters as,

629
00:27:43,579 --> 00:27:45,455
"What if the same actors played."

630
00:27:45,539 --> 00:27:48,876
"Riley's, Mom's and Dad's
Sadness or Fear or whoever?"

631
00:27:48,959 --> 00:27:51,712
We actually even recorded
all of our main cast,

632
00:27:51,795 --> 00:27:55,257
Phyllis and Amy and everybody,
doing all these other characters

633
00:27:55,340 --> 00:27:56,842
with like a gravelly voice,

634
00:27:56,925 --> 00:27:58,886
or a high-pitched voice
for Mom or something.

635
00:27:58,969 --> 00:28:00,929
And it seemed funny in concept,

636
00:28:01,013 --> 00:28:03,891
but it got kind of confusing
and not as funny.

637
00:28:03,974 --> 00:28:05,851
It was hilarious to us, though.

638
00:28:05,934 --> 00:28:09,855
If you can hear Lewis Black in falsetto,
ridiculously fun.

639
00:28:09,938 --> 00:28:11,815
Yeah.

640
00:28:11,899 --> 00:28:14,860
And it felt like it started to work.

641
00:28:15,110 --> 00:28:16,754
And one of the things that I did
was actually,

642
00:28:16,778 --> 00:28:18,530
just to make sure that this read in board,

643
00:28:18,614 --> 00:28:20,657
is to give all of Dad's
emotions mustaches.

644
00:28:20,741 --> 00:28:21,742
Yes.

645
00:28:21,825 --> 00:28:23,428
When we actually cracked dinner,

646
00:28:23,452 --> 00:28:25,579
it was kind of emblematic

647
00:28:25,662 --> 00:28:31,251
of what the experience in a movie
about emotions was going to feel like.

648
00:28:31,335 --> 00:28:33,616
Because we didn't solve everything
right in the beginning.

649
00:28:33,670 --> 00:28:36,381
This was the one sequence
that demonstrated

650
00:28:36,465 --> 00:28:40,219
what cutting from inside to outside
was going to be like.

651
00:28:40,302 --> 00:28:41,386
Yeah.

652
00:28:41,470 --> 00:28:44,348
And how many
characters' heads can we get into

653
00:28:46,183 --> 00:28:48,161
without failing to actually make it
entertaining or a coherent sequence.

654
00:28:48,185 --> 00:28:50,079
The other thing
that is interesting to point out

655
00:28:50,103 --> 00:28:53,440
about the dinner scene
is the number of different sets.

656
00:28:53,523 --> 00:28:56,068
We're in four sets,
constantly cutting back and forth.

657
00:28:56,151 --> 00:28:57,754
You have all these
different sets of characters

658
00:28:57,778 --> 00:28:59,404
who look pretty similar.

659
00:28:59,488 --> 00:29:01,949
So something that Ronnie
did in his boards very early on,

660
00:29:02,032 --> 00:29:03,617
which we echoed in final production,

661
00:29:03,700 --> 00:29:07,412
is just staging the inside world
the same as Mom's.

662
00:29:07,496 --> 00:29:09,581
So Mom is on the left
looking to the right.

663
00:29:09,665 --> 00:29:12,918
When we zoom in her emotions
are on the left looking to the right.

664
00:29:13,001 --> 00:29:15,629
Dad's on the right looking to the left,
Riley is center.

665
00:29:15,712 --> 00:29:20,300
So all that stuff kind of echoes and
helps the audience orient themselves.

666
00:29:20,384 --> 00:29:23,679
So we were trying to make sure
that we lessen the confusion.

667
00:29:23,762 --> 00:29:26,098
John was starting
to respond to it and he says,

668
00:29:26,181 --> 00:29:28,892
- "This is why you make this movie."
- Yeah.

669
00:29:28,976 --> 00:29:31,120
From the very beginning
he was intrigued by the idea

670
00:29:31,144 --> 00:29:33,188
of going into multiple people's heads,

671
00:29:33,272 --> 00:29:36,566
and seeing the differences
in what their characters act like,

672
00:29:36,650 --> 00:29:41,446
and the design of the place was sort of
a NORAD kind of thing for Dad versus...

673
00:29:41,530 --> 00:29:44,283
I think we modelled it on
chat shows for Mom.

674
00:29:44,366 --> 00:29:46,994
So it was definitely
something that showed

675
00:29:47,077 --> 00:29:49,871
how fun the promise
of this film could be.

676
00:29:49,955 --> 00:29:52,291
The sort of boring
of what's going on outside,

677
00:29:52,374 --> 00:29:53,959
and the excitement of inside,

678
00:29:54,042 --> 00:29:57,462
and almost a call to nuclear war for Dad.

679
00:29:57,546 --> 00:29:58,672
That's what it's coming to.

680
00:29:58,755 --> 00:30:01,008
We felt like
we were so lucky to actually

681
00:30:01,091 --> 00:30:03,302
have this sequence very early.

682
00:30:03,385 --> 00:30:06,179
Of course, it didn't make it easier
for the next couple of years,

683
00:30:06,263 --> 00:30:08,640
because not everything else
revealed itself.

684
00:30:08,724 --> 00:30:10,084
Yeah, people will be like,

685
00:30:10,350 --> 00:30:12,436
"The dinner scene
is still your best scene."

686
00:30:12,519 --> 00:30:15,605
"The other ones should be
getting up to that level."

687
00:30:16,732 --> 00:30:18,150
Let's talk a little bit about Joy.

688
00:30:18,233 --> 00:30:20,819
For my money anyways,
I look back at the film process,

689
00:30:20,902 --> 00:30:24,239
the most difficult thing
to lock in on was Joy.

690
00:30:24,323 --> 00:30:27,117
There was all sorts of logic issues...
Designing the world,

691
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,245
I don't wanna say that that was easy,
that was not really easy.

692
00:30:30,329 --> 00:30:33,623
But Joy, as a character,
was just a tough nut to crack.

693
00:30:33,707 --> 00:30:36,168
People that are always
chipper and happy

694
00:30:36,251 --> 00:30:37,794
and you spend a lot of time around,

695
00:30:37,878 --> 00:30:39,421
it's not very fun.

696
00:30:39,504 --> 00:30:41,048
Which is counterintuitive in a sense.

697
00:30:41,131 --> 00:30:43,675
'Cause you think,
"Joy! I want happiness in my life,"

698
00:30:43,759 --> 00:30:46,279
but if there's too much of it,
you're just like, "My teeth hurt."

699
00:30:46,303 --> 00:30:50,849
That was notes we got on the first
four, five versions of the film.

700
00:30:50,932 --> 00:30:53,226
That people were like,
"Okay, the concept is great,"

701
00:30:53,310 --> 00:30:54,811
"I really don't like Joy."

702
00:30:54,895 --> 00:30:56,355
Yeah.

703
00:30:56,438 --> 00:30:59,149
I think a big, big key to discovering

704
00:30:59,232 --> 00:31:01,109
the character, of course,
was Amy Poehler.

705
00:31:01,193 --> 00:31:03,028
Once we started working with her,

706
00:31:03,111 --> 00:31:05,947
it just immediately,
like this enormous burden lifted.

707
00:31:06,031 --> 00:31:08,241
When I first met with her,
Jonas and I went to New York

708
00:31:08,325 --> 00:31:10,845
and we described the film and
all the fun that we're gonna have,

709
00:31:10,869 --> 00:31:13,038
and then we said,
"But we have this challenge,"

710
00:31:13,121 --> 00:31:15,457
and she said,
"I know what you're going against."

711
00:31:15,540 --> 00:31:16,958
"And I think I can help you."

712
00:31:17,042 --> 00:31:19,086
She was really amazingly perceptive.

713
00:31:19,169 --> 00:31:21,213
It took us four years to figure this out.

714
00:31:21,296 --> 00:31:23,632
And she was like, in 15 minutes,
she got it all.

715
00:31:23,715 --> 00:31:24,883
And the challenges of it.

716
00:31:24,966 --> 00:31:26,468
And it was really something

717
00:31:26,551 --> 00:31:29,054
that she was able to play
on <i>Parks and Rec.</i>

718
00:31:29,137 --> 00:31:32,307
Her character Leslie Knope
is really an overachiever.

719
00:31:32,391 --> 00:31:34,786
And I think that's why you forgive her
and why you like her, is that

720
00:31:34,810 --> 00:31:37,979
she's done all this happy, peppy work,
but she has worked so hard.

721
00:31:38,063 --> 00:31:41,274
"All right. I stayed up all night
and prepared like 8,000 versions of it."

722
00:31:41,358 --> 00:31:44,820
She didn't need to do that,
but she was working really, really hard.

723
00:31:44,903 --> 00:31:47,406
An overachiever
that you can relate to.

724
00:31:47,489 --> 00:31:48,490
Yeah.

725
00:31:49,324 --> 00:31:51,076
This right here, I'm...

726
00:31:51,159 --> 00:31:53,912
This was my suggestion,
to do these flash cuts,

727
00:31:53,995 --> 00:31:55,247
which I'm proud of

728
00:31:55,330 --> 00:31:58,834
'cause it, I think, worked out really...
It gets me, anyway.

729
00:32:00,001 --> 00:32:02,838
If you think of it again
from a logical standpoint...

730
00:32:02,921 --> 00:32:05,090
I don't know what we're cutting to.

731
00:32:05,173 --> 00:32:06,484
Joy is looking down over the edge,

732
00:32:06,508 --> 00:32:10,178
and we're just randomly
almost cutting to these scenes of Riley.

733
00:32:10,262 --> 00:32:13,640
What's inferred, of course,
is that they're Joy's memories

734
00:32:13,723 --> 00:32:17,853
of these wonderful, goofy things
that Riley did as a kid

735
00:32:17,936 --> 00:32:21,773
that she'll no longer do anymore,
now that that island is gone.

736
00:32:21,857 --> 00:32:26,695
And, again, it kind of echoes
what happens to our own kids.

737
00:32:26,778 --> 00:32:30,490
And something I definitely miss
about my kids when they were little,

738
00:32:30,574 --> 00:32:34,202
of just this goofball activity
that they would do.

739
00:32:34,286 --> 00:32:36,079
It happens less and less as we get old.

740
00:32:36,163 --> 00:32:38,123
And this scene,

741
00:32:38,206 --> 00:32:40,500
Dad coming over to tuck her in,

742
00:32:40,584 --> 00:32:43,920
after a very difficult moment
there at dinner,

743
00:32:44,754 --> 00:32:47,716
Dad noticing that
his daughter's changed.

744
00:32:47,799 --> 00:32:48,800
Yeah.

745
00:33:03,398 --> 00:33:06,443
This scene, I think,
was one of the last ones to lock

746
00:33:06,526 --> 00:33:09,237
because we always seem to
get to these places

747
00:33:09,321 --> 00:33:11,823
where we've built
various sections of the film,

748
00:33:11,907 --> 00:33:16,119
now they have to attach in some way
that doesn't go on for too long.

749
00:33:16,203 --> 00:33:18,997
And this scene was really draggy

750
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,583
until we cut it way down and way down.

751
00:33:21,666 --> 00:33:25,128
This little bit where Joy
does this happy laugh

752
00:33:25,212 --> 00:33:27,839
was something
that we dug up in editorial.

753
00:33:27,923 --> 00:33:30,634
I don't even remember
where Amy did it originally.

754
00:33:30,717 --> 00:33:32,177
Somewhere way else in the film.

755
00:33:33,345 --> 00:33:35,847
But we found that and like,
"Okay! Put that in there,"

756
00:33:35,931 --> 00:33:38,099
because we need some way to show
she's happy.

757
00:33:38,183 --> 00:33:39,744
We don't have a line
that we've recorded,

758
00:33:39,768 --> 00:33:41,662
even though we recorded this scene
like four times,

759
00:33:41,686 --> 00:33:45,065
we were throwing stuff out
and trying to get it to work and...

760
00:33:45,148 --> 00:33:47,025
But that's kind of fun
when you can spelunk

761
00:33:47,108 --> 00:33:49,945
and find these little bits
and put 'em together in ways that work.

762
00:33:50,028 --> 00:33:51,797
I'm glad that
you remember those things.

763
00:33:51,821 --> 00:33:56,701
Kevin! Kevin Nolting,
our editorial lead and guru in editorial,

764
00:33:56,785 --> 00:33:58,185
would know where to look for these.

765
00:33:58,245 --> 00:33:59,538
Yeah.

766
00:33:59,621 --> 00:34:01,623
This is what we came to call a Gilligan.

767
00:34:01,706 --> 00:34:04,668
It's from that <i>Gilligan's Island</i> thing
where he says,

768
00:34:04,751 --> 00:34:07,087
"I'm not gonna dress up like a girl,
you can't make me."

769
00:34:07,170 --> 00:34:09,190
And then...
You cut and he's dressed up like a girl.

770
00:34:09,214 --> 00:34:12,342
So this is Joy saying, "This is working!"

771
00:34:12,425 --> 00:34:13,861
And then you cut and...
"This is not working."

772
00:34:13,885 --> 00:34:14,946
"This is not working."

773
00:34:14,970 --> 00:34:16,113
The other thing I remember is that

774
00:34:16,137 --> 00:34:18,890
we actually played Joy
very frustrated in these scenes

775
00:34:18,974 --> 00:34:20,392
for a very long time,

776
00:34:20,475 --> 00:34:23,186
just to kind of like mirror
what we would get to

777
00:34:23,270 --> 00:34:25,272
if we were in her shoes.

778
00:34:25,355 --> 00:34:27,023
But her being Joy, actually,

779
00:34:27,107 --> 00:34:30,026
her reaction to it is to
try and put a positive spin.

780
00:34:30,110 --> 00:34:32,279
"This is not disastrous."

781
00:34:32,362 --> 00:34:35,615
"We can make this work. Can we?"

782
00:34:35,699 --> 00:34:38,535
And she's desperately
trying to find an upside.

783
00:34:38,618 --> 00:34:41,580
I like that her hair's
all messed up though. It's funny.

784
00:34:41,663 --> 00:34:43,623
This is seeing the Forgetters.

785
00:34:43,707 --> 00:34:45,625
And this grew out of the idea that okay,

786
00:34:45,959 --> 00:34:49,462
out of all these millions of memories,
some of them are gonna be forgotten.

787
00:34:49,546 --> 00:34:51,381
And I think this came pretty early on,

788
00:34:51,464 --> 00:34:54,259
that the brightness
and the clarity of the image

789
00:34:54,342 --> 00:34:56,970
would equate to how clear that memory
is in our own heads.

790
00:34:57,053 --> 00:34:59,472
There are gonna be some
that are just too faded

791
00:34:59,556 --> 00:35:00,908
and so those need to be thrown out.

792
00:35:00,932 --> 00:35:04,352
The Forgetters have a job.
They know what they need to do.

793
00:35:04,436 --> 00:35:08,273
This was, I think, a combination of
Josh Cooley and Simon Rich,

794
00:35:08,356 --> 00:35:09,917
who wrote on the film for quite a while.

795
00:35:09,941 --> 00:35:13,612
Just coming up with examples of
weird stuff that makes sense

796
00:35:13,695 --> 00:35:17,157
because it equates to our own
lack of memory.

797
00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:19,409
The Forgetters is very interesting to me.

798
00:35:19,492 --> 00:35:23,580
Those characters did not exist
in our cast of characters.

799
00:35:23,663 --> 00:35:25,624
Pete was the one who would come
into the room,

800
00:35:25,707 --> 00:35:27,876
he's like,
"You know what would be funny?"

801
00:35:27,959 --> 00:35:29,628
"Is if you have Forgetters."

802
00:35:29,711 --> 00:35:32,464
Back then it was kind of like,
"But what would they do?"

803
00:35:32,714 --> 00:35:34,424
Then you weren't convinced?

804
00:35:34,507 --> 00:35:35,943
We weren't sold right away.

805
00:35:35,967 --> 00:35:37,194
And then he would come back again,

806
00:35:37,218 --> 00:35:38,696
he's like,
"You know what would be great here?"

807
00:35:38,720 --> 00:35:40,805
"Is if we have these characters
called Forgetters."

808
00:35:40,889 --> 00:35:43,224
And he would try over and over
and over again,

809
00:35:43,308 --> 00:35:46,227
until one day
actually he was right all along.

810
00:35:46,311 --> 00:35:47,979
"Forgetters should be here."

811
00:35:48,063 --> 00:35:51,524
This idea of replaying
the memory, of actually sending it up,

812
00:35:51,608 --> 00:35:56,780
came later as a way to show that
when you do this to the memory,

813
00:35:56,863 --> 00:35:59,449
it goes up that tube,
it shows up in Headquarters,

814
00:35:59,532 --> 00:36:02,118
which is gonna be what
Joy and Sadness are gonna attempt

815
00:36:03,161 --> 00:36:04,287
late in Act 2.

816
00:36:04,371 --> 00:36:05,851
So that was a way of setting that up.

817
00:36:05,914 --> 00:36:07,832
And, also, hopefully getting
a bit of a laugh.

818
00:36:07,916 --> 00:36:10,543
And luckily we recorded
everybody on the cast

819
00:36:10,627 --> 00:36:12,879
humming the TripleDent gum song.

820
00:36:12,962 --> 00:36:16,800
So when you cut to Riley
and she's talking to her friend,

821
00:36:16,883 --> 00:36:20,512
we had that from Kaitlyn Dias,
who's the voice of Riley.

822
00:36:20,595 --> 00:36:23,264
Yes,
and Pete Docter wrote that song.

823
00:36:23,348 --> 00:36:24,575
Oh, it's a wonderful song.

824
00:36:24,599 --> 00:36:27,936
No, no, he wrote it as if
like he's been hearing it all his life.

825
00:36:28,019 --> 00:36:31,106
- And he wrote it, you actually...
- I had to sing it for people.

826
00:36:31,189 --> 00:36:32,458
You had to sing it for people.

827
00:36:32,482 --> 00:36:35,944
But you also directed the way
that they sang it in terms of...

828
00:36:36,027 --> 00:36:38,707
- Because Pete's a musical genius.
- I'll sing it for you right now.

829
00:36:40,031 --> 00:36:41,741
Okay. Never mind.

830
00:36:41,825 --> 00:36:44,035
Uh, the Friendship Island...

831
00:36:44,119 --> 00:36:46,830
We wanted to make it clear
that it was going down

832
00:36:46,913 --> 00:36:48,039
in some different way,

833
00:36:48,123 --> 00:36:51,000
to experience it in a different way
than Goofball did.

834
00:36:51,084 --> 00:36:52,669
So the scale of it,

835
00:36:52,752 --> 00:36:55,797
and, of course, Goofball, they were
running across it when it went down.

836
00:36:58,341 --> 00:36:59,718
When Goofball Island went down,

837
00:36:59,801 --> 00:37:03,388
we were sort of aware that we have
a number of these islands

838
00:37:03,471 --> 00:37:05,765
that could feel repetitive, you know?

839
00:37:05,849 --> 00:37:08,643
Once you establish a pattern of,
"Uh-oh, the Island went down."

840
00:37:08,727 --> 00:37:10,562
"I have a flash cut
of what that means to me,"

841
00:37:10,645 --> 00:37:11,896
in terms of Riley, who's like,

842
00:37:11,980 --> 00:37:13,273
"Oh, man, this could get old."

843
00:37:13,356 --> 00:37:15,817
So we worked hard to stage it
in a different way,

844
00:37:15,900 --> 00:37:17,944
to show the memory
as opposed to flash cuts.

845
00:37:18,027 --> 00:37:20,029
Anything we could do
to kind of differentiate it

846
00:37:20,113 --> 00:37:21,698
from the first one, from Goofball...

847
00:37:27,996 --> 00:37:29,539
Let's talk about Bing Bong.

848
00:37:29,622 --> 00:37:33,543
Bing Bong was a character that
was born out of another scene,

849
00:37:33,626 --> 00:37:38,715
that Joy found all of these forgotten,
imaginary friends,

850
00:37:38,798 --> 00:37:39,984
characters that Riley had created.

851
00:37:40,008 --> 00:37:44,012
Like Mrs. Scribbles, who's kind of
a crude kid's drawing of a person.

852
00:37:44,095 --> 00:37:45,448
- In crayon.
- Yeah.

853
00:37:45,472 --> 00:37:48,099
And the sun, who is, you know,
the classic quarter of the sun

854
00:37:48,183 --> 00:37:49,642
poking in the corner of the page.

855
00:37:49,726 --> 00:37:50,810
The corner sun.

856
00:37:50,894 --> 00:37:53,164
But then as you reveal
the character, that's all it was.

857
00:37:54,272 --> 00:37:55,916
And Bing Bong
was one of those characters

858
00:37:55,940 --> 00:37:58,526
that hung out with these
out-of-work actors essentially.

859
00:37:58,610 --> 00:38:01,488
Yeah. They were
kind of like camping out

860
00:38:01,571 --> 00:38:03,007
in one forgotten corner of the mind.

861
00:38:03,031 --> 00:38:04,407
But as the story refined,

862
00:38:04,491 --> 00:38:06,618
we realized Bing Bong
could be really cool in that

863
00:38:06,701 --> 00:38:09,454
he is Joy to the extreme.

864
00:38:09,537 --> 00:38:11,623
So Sadness is
kind of the opposite of Joy,

865
00:38:11,706 --> 00:38:13,958
in terms of what she knows.

866
00:38:14,042 --> 00:38:16,127
Joy is trying to hold on to childhood.

867
00:38:16,211 --> 00:38:19,756
Sadness already, sort of, intuitively
knows that we need to move on.

868
00:38:19,839 --> 00:38:23,301
So what if we took Bing Bong
and made him even more like Joy?

869
00:38:23,384 --> 00:38:26,638
In that he basically acts
like a three-year-old.

870
00:38:26,846 --> 00:38:29,974
And he thinks Riley should still be
basically three years old.

871
00:38:30,058 --> 00:38:32,977
And Joy could then come
in the course of the film to realize,

872
00:38:33,061 --> 00:38:35,522
"Gee, that's kind of crazy talk, you know."

873
00:38:35,605 --> 00:38:37,440
"Maybe I've been taking things too far."

874
00:38:37,524 --> 00:38:39,609
And Bing Bong being

875
00:38:39,692 --> 00:38:42,987
an imaginary friend
when Riley was little,

876
00:38:43,071 --> 00:38:47,116
he was very vital in Riley's life then.

877
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,620
But Riley's a little older now,
and he doesn't have a job anymore.

878
00:38:50,703 --> 00:38:51,746
Yeah.

879
00:39:02,090 --> 00:39:04,467
The Bing Bong introduction
at the very beginning

880
00:39:04,551 --> 00:39:06,278
was something we tacked on
at the last minute.

881
00:39:06,302 --> 00:39:09,013
Josh wrote this little thing of him
muttering to himself,

882
00:39:09,097 --> 00:39:10,849
which I thought was very fun.

883
00:39:10,932 --> 00:39:12,976
Oh, this scene here when he says,

884
00:39:13,059 --> 00:39:17,105
"Well, there's not much call
for imaginary friends lately. So..."

885
00:39:17,772 --> 00:39:20,775
There was a whole second part
of that line,

886
00:39:20,859 --> 00:39:24,863
it's just one of many examples
where you overwrite stuff,

887
00:39:24,946 --> 00:39:29,033
and then the performer, the actor,
is able to infer all that

888
00:39:29,117 --> 00:39:31,035
in just one part of a line.

889
00:39:31,119 --> 00:39:32,495
So when he says,

890
00:39:32,579 --> 00:39:35,182
"There's not
much call for imaginary friends lately."

891
00:39:35,206 --> 00:39:38,543
You already get the second half
of the line was something like,

892
00:39:38,626 --> 00:39:42,213
"I'm starting to think
I'll never be part of Riley's life again."

893
00:39:42,297 --> 00:39:43,840
And then he'd start to cry.

894
00:39:43,923 --> 00:39:46,259
So, um, we just didn't need that.
You cut it off.

895
00:39:46,342 --> 00:39:48,279
And there's so many examples
of those kind of things.

896
00:39:48,303 --> 00:39:51,389
And that's also
the magic of the great Richard Kind.

897
00:39:51,472 --> 00:39:52,473
Yeah, it is.

898
00:39:52,557 --> 00:39:55,852
And he could actually make you

899
00:39:55,935 --> 00:39:58,521
experience a whole range of emotions

900
00:39:58,605 --> 00:40:02,317
and behavior just by his vocalizations.

901
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:03,544
This is kind of interesting.

902
00:40:03,568 --> 00:40:06,529
The magic bag here
grew out of the fact that.

903
00:40:06,613 --> 00:40:09,824
Joy was gonna have to
walk through the entire movie

904
00:40:09,908 --> 00:40:11,993
carrying these five bowling balls.

905
00:40:12,076 --> 00:40:14,662
So that was really limiting for her acting.

906
00:40:14,746 --> 00:40:18,166
She couldn't ever gesture
or hold anything other than those.

907
00:40:18,249 --> 00:40:20,919
So we thought,
"Well, let's make this bag."

908
00:40:21,002 --> 00:40:22,754
"Well, are we gonna be able to buy"

909
00:40:22,837 --> 00:40:24,815
"that she stuffed all of those
in this little bag?"

910
00:40:24,839 --> 00:40:27,425
"Let's make it an imaginary bag,
all right?"

911
00:40:27,508 --> 00:40:29,844
And then,
we ended up using it for the third act.

912
00:40:29,928 --> 00:40:32,138
So, hopefully,
it all kind of comes together.

913
00:40:32,221 --> 00:40:35,683
It sounds like
we planned it all along.

914
00:40:35,934 --> 00:40:38,561
But it was a long time
when we tried to actually make sure

915
00:40:38,645 --> 00:40:40,772
that the bag only held five.

916
00:40:40,855 --> 00:40:41,898
Yeah.

917
00:40:41,981 --> 00:40:45,193
And then it became
even more cumbersome

918
00:40:45,276 --> 00:40:46,778
to actually make that real.

919
00:40:46,861 --> 00:40:48,947
"Actually that bag
is gonna be really big."

920
00:40:49,030 --> 00:40:50,615
Yeah. Yeah.

921
00:40:50,698 --> 00:40:52,200
So, it's an imaginary bag.

922
00:40:56,037 --> 00:40:59,624
Bing Bong's spelling of D-A-N-G-E-R,
that was something Cooley wrote.

923
00:40:59,707 --> 00:41:02,835
Josh Cooley, again,
our head of story and writer.

924
00:41:03,252 --> 00:41:05,630
He wrote that and then
it came under scrutiny

925
00:41:05,713 --> 00:41:09,550
because people were like,
"Well, if Joy... Joy knows how to spell."

926
00:41:09,634 --> 00:41:13,805
"And if she follows this guy willingly
into a danger place,"

927
00:41:13,888 --> 00:41:15,598
"does it make her dumb?"

928
00:41:15,682 --> 00:41:18,851
And the answer is, "Yes.
But we don't care because it's funny."

929
00:41:18,935 --> 00:41:22,480
Yes, and actually,
Joy just wants to get through.

930
00:41:22,563 --> 00:41:25,525
Even if she's like,
"Oh, yeah. Well... Whatever."

931
00:41:25,608 --> 00:41:27,448
- Yeah.
- "Whatever gets me back home."

932
00:41:27,527 --> 00:41:28,527
Yeah.

933
00:41:44,919 --> 00:41:47,213
So this is Ronnie's big part
in the movie. Ready?

934
00:41:48,589 --> 00:41:50,189
- There it is!
- Let's cut this part out.

935
00:41:51,217 --> 00:41:53,362
I'm sure that
somebody was gonna cut this part out.

936
00:41:53,386 --> 00:41:55,447
That's Ronnie saying
"loneliness," which is fun.

937
00:41:55,471 --> 00:41:58,975
And Elissa Knight who is...
She's the voice of EVE in <i>WALL-E.</i>

938
00:41:59,058 --> 00:42:02,603
And she did all of our scratch recording,
our temporary recording, for Joy.

939
00:42:02,687 --> 00:42:04,748
- We put her through the wringer.
- Yeah.

940
00:42:04,772 --> 00:42:06,274
She is such a trouper.

941
00:42:06,357 --> 00:42:09,902
She was our Joy for the longest time
in our temp tracks

942
00:42:10,445 --> 00:42:12,905
and informed a lot of our discoveries
about Joy.

943
00:42:19,412 --> 00:42:23,041
Abstract thought was
one of those we came up with early on.

944
00:42:23,124 --> 00:42:25,293
We made... Remember, we made
a list on the white board

945
00:42:25,376 --> 00:42:27,962
of all the different places in the mind
that you could go.

946
00:42:28,046 --> 00:42:29,881
And this was one we circled.

947
00:42:29,964 --> 00:42:32,341
We were like,
"We got to go there. I wanna see..."

948
00:42:32,425 --> 00:42:36,763
'Cause we can bring the audience,
and visualize this stuff in ways

949
00:42:36,846 --> 00:42:39,015
that you could never do
in any other way.

950
00:42:39,098 --> 00:42:42,560
Yeah, we were jonesing on,

951
00:42:42,643 --> 00:42:45,063
- "We can do 2-D!"
- Yeah!

952
00:42:45,146 --> 00:42:46,832
"What? That'd be awesome!"

953
00:42:46,856 --> 00:42:48,733
Yeah. And if you
listen to the track,

954
00:42:48,816 --> 00:42:52,653
the audio actually reflects
the visuals as well.

955
00:42:52,737 --> 00:42:55,323
It starts in surround,
and then when it goes 2-D,

956
00:42:55,406 --> 00:42:56,616
it all goes to the front.

957
00:42:56,699 --> 00:43:00,703
And then when it goes abstract,
it all goes to the center speaker,

958
00:43:00,787 --> 00:43:02,914
and it's very compressed and confined.

959
00:43:02,997 --> 00:43:05,208
So that was a really fun sequence to do.

960
00:43:05,291 --> 00:43:08,878
We actually put together
a separate team, a special team,

961
00:43:08,961 --> 00:43:10,588
that did all the modelling,

962
00:43:10,671 --> 00:43:12,924
the design work,
the lighting and everything in there,

963
00:43:13,007 --> 00:43:14,887
so that it would be as efficient as
we could be.

964
00:43:15,176 --> 00:43:16,844
Yes. We isolated them,

965
00:43:16,928 --> 00:43:19,931
we kept them from food
and human contact.

966
00:43:20,014 --> 00:43:22,433
And that's why that sequence
is so insane.

967
00:43:22,517 --> 00:43:25,157
Well, weirdly, that's
one of those, because it's different,

968
00:43:25,186 --> 00:43:27,980
it is hugely expensive.

969
00:43:28,564 --> 00:43:30,417
- It looks simple.
- It looks simple.

970
00:43:30,441 --> 00:43:34,070
You know, anything outside
sort of the normal production pipeline

971
00:43:34,153 --> 00:43:35,446
makes for difficulties.

972
00:43:36,155 --> 00:43:37,591
So it was one of those sequences

973
00:43:37,615 --> 00:43:39,215
that was not easy to actually make work,

974
00:43:39,242 --> 00:43:42,120
but one that when we started
working on it, it was so fun,

975
00:43:42,203 --> 00:43:44,872
and it proved that
it definitely has to be in the film.

976
00:43:44,956 --> 00:43:47,792
At first it really just felt
kind of gratuitous.

977
00:43:47,875 --> 00:43:50,378
And so we came up
with this idea of four stages.

978
00:43:50,461 --> 00:43:53,214
This was the first
and it became a ticking clock thing.

979
00:43:53,297 --> 00:43:56,384
So every time they abstract,
yeah, it's fun to look at,

980
00:43:57,426 --> 00:43:59,106
but it's also tightening the wrench and...

981
00:43:59,137 --> 00:44:01,848
More dangerous
the longer they stay there.

982
00:44:01,931 --> 00:44:05,685
Of course, it's also the first
test of Bing Bong's ability as a guide,

983
00:44:05,768 --> 00:44:06,769
which he flunks, right?

984
00:44:07,937 --> 00:44:09,164
So Joy starts
to check in with Sadness,

985
00:44:09,188 --> 00:44:12,608
which is kind of a little tick
in her relationship with Sadness.

986
00:44:13,901 --> 00:44:17,155
Imagination Land was
one of those examples of childhood,

987
00:44:17,238 --> 00:44:18,781
of holding on to childhood.

988
00:44:18,865 --> 00:44:22,785
And so this scene,
I think we initially designed it as

989
00:44:22,869 --> 00:44:28,833
again echoing that idea that Joy loves
and relishes all those childhood things.

990
00:44:28,916 --> 00:44:32,128
Um, but in our first script
they were being torn down,

991
00:44:32,211 --> 00:44:35,798
making way for new stuff like
the Imaginary Boyfriend Generator

992
00:44:35,882 --> 00:44:36,883
and things like that.

993
00:44:36,966 --> 00:44:40,136
That's why you notice
that the design of these...

994
00:44:40,219 --> 00:44:43,973
The whole place
is not so colorful or shiny.

995
00:44:44,056 --> 00:44:46,350
Everything's a little disheveled, unused.

996
00:44:46,434 --> 00:44:49,145
It's kind of like
an abandoned theme park.

997
00:44:51,439 --> 00:44:53,774
Bing Bong's rocket was something

998
00:44:53,858 --> 00:44:56,402
that we had
many long discussions about as well,

999
00:44:56,485 --> 00:44:59,363
because we knew...
I think we designed it early on,

1000
00:44:59,447 --> 00:45:01,741
and we were using it as a way
to get out of the dump,

1001
00:45:01,824 --> 00:45:04,076
but we hadn't really folded it in,
in any real way.

1002
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:05,369
So we had one version where...

1003
00:45:05,453 --> 00:45:07,872
"Well, let's just have him
introduced with it."

1004
00:45:07,955 --> 00:45:09,040
So, when we first meet him

1005
00:45:09,123 --> 00:45:11,375
as he's scavenging
through the memory shelves,

1006
00:45:11,459 --> 00:45:12,668
he would have that rocket.

1007
00:45:12,752 --> 00:45:13,937
But then we were like,
"Well, wait a minute."

1008
00:45:13,961 --> 00:45:17,131
"If he has the rocket, why don't they
just use it to get back to Headquarters?"

1009
00:45:19,675 --> 00:45:22,279
So, we had to say, "Well, okay,
let's wait to reveal it till later."

1010
00:45:22,303 --> 00:45:23,804
"And how much can we get away with?"

1011
00:45:23,888 --> 00:45:26,200
"Like, if you introduce it
right before they throw it away,"

1012
00:45:26,224 --> 00:45:27,934
"then it doesn't really have any value."

1013
00:45:28,017 --> 00:45:29,644
So, it's just one of these things

1014
00:45:29,727 --> 00:45:31,330
that happened in the course
of making the movie

1015
00:45:31,354 --> 00:45:33,231
that you kind of just accept
as an audience,

1016
00:45:33,314 --> 00:45:36,275
but you don't know
all this incredible work

1017
00:45:36,359 --> 00:45:37,944
that went into making it play.

1018
00:45:38,027 --> 00:45:39,028
Oh, yes.

1019
00:45:40,488 --> 00:45:43,449
Speaking of which,
we used to end Imagination Land

1020
00:45:44,408 --> 00:45:46,160
with Bing Bong
kind of getting distracted.

1021
00:45:46,244 --> 00:45:47,638
Like, "Hey, hey, let's go this way."

1022
00:45:47,662 --> 00:45:49,705
"I want you to see this thing.
Come over here."

1023
00:45:49,789 --> 00:45:52,500
And Joy going, "Yeah, but
shouldn't we... Hey, Bing Bong, wait."

1024
00:45:52,583 --> 00:45:56,712
That was a cliffhanger which seemed
like an interesting idea.

1025
00:45:56,796 --> 00:45:59,715
Then we realized, "Well, we're starting
the scene negative."

1026
00:45:59,799 --> 00:46:02,885
"So, we should reverse it
and make it a positive ending."

1027
00:46:02,969 --> 00:46:06,514
And everything is all good
on that subplot.

1028
00:46:06,597 --> 00:46:09,809
Meanwhile,
Riley is here playing hockey

1029
00:46:09,892 --> 00:46:11,644
and having a tough time of it.

1030
00:46:11,727 --> 00:46:13,020
Hockey is one of those things

1031
00:46:13,104 --> 00:46:15,940
that was definitely part of
my childhood in Minnesota.

1032
00:46:16,023 --> 00:46:18,734
Minnesota being kind of
the annex of Canada,

1033
00:46:18,818 --> 00:46:21,404
hockey was really big in Minnesota.

1034
00:46:21,487 --> 00:46:24,782
So, even though I can't even
stand up on the ice,

1035
00:46:24,865 --> 00:46:27,159
it felt like something that we could use

1036
00:46:27,243 --> 00:46:30,705
as a representation of Riley's childhood
and the things she loved

1037
00:46:30,788 --> 00:46:32,415
that now she's going to give up

1038
00:46:32,498 --> 00:46:35,084
or at least have
some different relationship with.

1039
00:46:35,167 --> 00:46:38,337
And it was a chance
for us to show Headquarters again.

1040
00:46:38,421 --> 00:46:39,581
They are kind of discovering,

1041
00:46:39,630 --> 00:46:41,549
along with the audience,
how things work.

1042
00:46:41,632 --> 00:46:44,593
'Cause this is a state
that Riley's never really been in before.

1043
00:46:44,677 --> 00:46:46,321
They've never lost
all the core memories.

1044
00:46:46,345 --> 00:46:49,032
"So, maybe if we put one of these
other ones in, that would work? No."

1045
00:46:49,056 --> 00:46:51,136
So, we're trying to close the doors
for the audience,

1046
00:46:52,018 --> 00:46:53,620
like the only solution
is to bring these things back.

1047
00:46:53,644 --> 00:46:54,895
Yes.

1048
00:46:58,441 --> 00:47:02,111
So, this is Bing Bong now
at a big turn in his arc.

1049
00:47:02,194 --> 00:47:04,447
So, if you think of him
as being completely innocent

1050
00:47:04,530 --> 00:47:06,824
and kind of blind to reality
when we met him,

1051
00:47:06,907 --> 00:47:10,661
this beat here shows
that no longer is he valued,

1052
00:47:10,745 --> 00:47:12,538
that his stuff's ready to be thrown away.

1053
00:47:12,621 --> 00:47:15,916
And he says,
"Riley can't be done with me."

1054
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,627
And it's a big, big turn for him.

1055
00:47:18,711 --> 00:47:22,340
Yeah, actually
every time I watch this sequence,

1056
00:47:22,423 --> 00:47:25,217
I'm amazed that we actually show

1057
00:47:25,301 --> 00:47:28,054
the history of Imagination Land
in one sequence.

1058
00:47:28,137 --> 00:47:29,239
When you walk through the gates,

1059
00:47:29,263 --> 00:47:32,600
it seems like everything
is so beautiful and so playful.

1060
00:47:32,683 --> 00:47:34,810
And then you see it being torn down...
Oh, my gosh.

1061
00:47:34,894 --> 00:47:38,064
It's had a life cycle already.

1062
00:47:38,147 --> 00:47:39,774
Ed Catmull, president of Pixar,

1063
00:47:39,857 --> 00:47:42,360
had some interesting notes
for us on this scene.

1064
00:47:42,443 --> 00:47:46,739
Because he felt like we were giving
away the punchline with this scene,

1065
00:47:46,822 --> 00:47:48,741
that the fact that Sadness...

1066
00:47:48,824 --> 00:47:50,701
In fact, at the first pass through this,

1067
00:47:50,785 --> 00:47:53,537
we had much deeper discussion
at the end of it.

1068
00:47:53,621 --> 00:47:54,765
- Remember that?
- Yes.

1069
00:47:54,789 --> 00:47:56,600
So Joy says,
"How did you do that?" to Sadness.

1070
00:47:56,624 --> 00:47:57,893
And she says, "Well, I don't know."

1071
00:47:57,917 --> 00:48:00,419
"He was sad,
so I listened to what he was sad about."

1072
00:48:00,503 --> 00:48:02,671
And she walks away,
and Joy's like, "Hmm."

1073
00:48:02,755 --> 00:48:07,259
Because of that especially, Ed felt like
the ending is not really a surprise now

1074
00:48:07,343 --> 00:48:10,388
because we know,
from that reaction there,

1075
00:48:10,471 --> 00:48:12,932
what's going to happen.
So we cut it way back.

1076
00:48:13,015 --> 00:48:16,560
We actually went through a whole pass
of trying to disguise this even more

1077
00:48:16,644 --> 00:48:19,405
to the point of actually breaking the
scene which was kind of working.

1078
00:48:20,606 --> 00:48:22,233
I guess
that's the usual process,

1079
00:48:22,316 --> 00:48:24,068
and almost every scene does that.

1080
00:48:24,151 --> 00:48:29,573
I think it's our way of
getting really close to the solution,

1081
00:48:29,657 --> 00:48:34,412
and then at 10%, "That's not working.
We'll work on that forever."

1082
00:48:34,495 --> 00:48:38,249
Yeah, sometimes you have
to drive way, way around into the woods

1083
00:48:38,332 --> 00:48:40,459
before you come back
to meet the mainland.

1084
00:48:40,543 --> 00:48:41,978
Oh, we did that
a lot on this movie.

1085
00:48:42,002 --> 00:48:43,212
Oh, boy! Every movie.

1086
00:48:43,295 --> 00:48:45,881
The one thing that changed here
was the fact that Joy,

1087
00:48:45,965 --> 00:48:49,093
she used to just walk off screen
and be on a stage wait a little bit.

1088
00:48:49,176 --> 00:48:53,472
And now she walks off and continues
to try to urge them onward,

1089
00:48:53,556 --> 00:48:54,932
which is her goal.

1090
00:48:55,015 --> 00:48:57,601
"Come on, we got to get to the train.
Come on, Sadness."

1091
00:48:57,685 --> 00:48:59,812
"Don't make him worse.
Don't make him feel worse."

1092
00:48:59,895 --> 00:49:04,275
So, that helps as well.
Really between those two things,

1093
00:49:04,358 --> 00:49:06,986
cutting off Sadness
right there at the end

1094
00:49:07,069 --> 00:49:08,946
and that other adjustment.

1095
00:49:09,029 --> 00:49:10,364
Yes.

1096
00:49:10,448 --> 00:49:13,159
And it's really
quite an emblematic scene

1097
00:49:13,242 --> 00:49:18,622
of what Sadness is effective at
in this world.

1098
00:49:18,706 --> 00:49:21,208
This is the very first time
wherein you can see

1099
00:49:21,292 --> 00:49:25,254
that she's really able to
manifest empathy.

1100
00:49:25,754 --> 00:49:27,566
Ronnie, talk for a minute
about screen direction.

1101
00:49:27,590 --> 00:49:30,634
'Cause as we watch the train here
head towards Headquarters,

1102
00:49:30,718 --> 00:49:33,053
I'm just reminded
of all the backflips we did.

1103
00:49:33,137 --> 00:49:35,598
Because
this world is actually circular,

1104
00:49:35,681 --> 00:49:37,975
and for the longest time,
we were trying to make sure

1105
00:49:38,058 --> 00:49:42,104
that we also know if we're cutting
from this journey to that journey.

1106
00:49:42,605 --> 00:49:46,066
So, Headquarters is always
going to be on screen left for us,

1107
00:49:46,150 --> 00:49:51,197
when you were doing story,
just to make sure that that is foolproof.

1108
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:52,490
And then the journey,

1109
00:49:52,573 --> 00:49:55,493
when Joy and Sadness
are thrown out of Headquarters,

1110
00:49:55,576 --> 00:49:57,119
they go towards screen right.

1111
00:49:57,203 --> 00:49:58,555
So, when they have to head back home,

1112
00:49:58,579 --> 00:50:00,348
they have to head back home
towards screen left.

1113
00:50:00,372 --> 00:50:02,412
That's set up
right there in that first shot

1114
00:50:02,625 --> 00:50:04,502
when they first get plonked out
into Long Term.

1115
00:50:04,585 --> 00:50:06,062
They're going the wrong way

1116
00:50:06,086 --> 00:50:08,172
if the characters are going screen right.

1117
00:50:08,255 --> 00:50:12,134
That means that Joy is having to take
the long way to go home.

1118
00:50:12,218 --> 00:50:13,695
Eventually, when they meet Bing Bong,

1119
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:16,639
Bing Bong actually starts moving them
towards screen left.

1120
00:50:16,722 --> 00:50:18,849
So, every time that
we actually zig and zag,

1121
00:50:18,933 --> 00:50:20,392
it's actually supposed to mean

1122
00:50:20,476 --> 00:50:22,787
that they're either getting closer
or farther away from each other.

1123
00:50:22,811 --> 00:50:26,273
Kevin Nolting, our editor,
thinks we're too persnickety about that.

1124
00:50:26,357 --> 00:50:28,067
- He's right.
- He is right.

1125
00:50:28,150 --> 00:50:31,028
But in general, I think
it just helps orient the audience.

1126
00:50:31,111 --> 00:50:33,471
This little bit here, as Fear runs away,
this was boarded...

1127
00:50:34,281 --> 00:50:36,951
Some really funny stuff
that the Story guys came up with,

1128
00:50:37,034 --> 00:50:39,370
and then when we recorded with Bill,
I could tell,

1129
00:50:39,453 --> 00:50:42,122
as he was recording,
he was seeing this all in his head.

1130
00:50:42,206 --> 00:50:44,476
And he was acting it out
just right there in front of the mic.

1131
00:50:44,500 --> 00:50:46,220
- Remember that? He was just like...
- Yeah.

1132
00:50:47,253 --> 00:50:48,963
You know,
all these great sounds.

1133
00:50:49,046 --> 00:50:51,549
And I could see it coming to life
in his brain.

1134
00:50:51,632 --> 00:50:53,610
And so when we animated it,
I just told the animators,

1135
00:50:53,634 --> 00:50:55,427
"Go back, look at that footage of Bill,"

1136
00:50:55,511 --> 00:50:57,447
"and you'll get exactly
what we're talking about."

1137
00:50:57,471 --> 00:51:00,766
I know. Bill seems to
have a mind that's built for cartoons.

1138
00:51:00,849 --> 00:51:02,560
When he's walking around
here at Pixar...

1139
00:51:02,643 --> 00:51:04,120
- He's home.
- He's unfettered.

1140
00:51:04,144 --> 00:51:06,063
And when he's here
in a recording studio,

1141
00:51:06,146 --> 00:51:08,066
it almost feels like
we're giving him these lines

1142
00:51:08,107 --> 00:51:10,818
that seems like it's just not enough
to let him loose.

1143
00:51:10,901 --> 00:51:11,986
Yeah.

1144
00:51:12,069 --> 00:51:14,149
- You remember Bill came to Pixar.
- Yes.

1145
00:51:14,697 --> 00:51:18,492
I think he flew himself
to Pixar just to visit.

1146
00:51:18,576 --> 00:51:20,637
- I know.
- Which is kind of... Would he do that?

1147
00:51:20,661 --> 00:51:22,705
I think so.
That was the feeling.

1148
00:51:22,788 --> 00:51:24,641
It felt like he was
just any one of those people

1149
00:51:24,665 --> 00:51:28,252
who wanted to visit Pixar and he...

1150
00:51:28,335 --> 00:51:31,046
I wonder what he would say.
We should just call him.

1151
00:51:31,130 --> 00:51:32,440
You want to just call him
and see what he says?

1152
00:51:32,464 --> 00:51:34,133
Okay, let's call him.

1153
00:51:34,508 --> 00:51:36,228
Hang on a second.

1154
00:51:38,137 --> 00:51:39,888
<i>Hello? Hello.</i>

1155
00:51:39,972 --> 00:51:41,724
- Hello, Bill Hader.
<i>- Yes.</i>

1156
00:51:41,807 --> 00:51:43,642
- This is Pete Docter calling.
<i>- Hey, Pete.</i>

1157
00:51:43,726 --> 00:51:44,977
And Ronnie's here too.

1158
00:51:45,060 --> 00:51:47,438
And right now, we're recording
the director's commentary.

1159
00:51:47,521 --> 00:51:50,107
And we thought,
"We have a couple questions for Bill."

1160
00:51:50,190 --> 00:51:51,775
- Hi, Bill.
<i>- Hi, Ronnie.</i>

1161
00:51:51,859 --> 00:51:53,539
We were just
starting to talk about

1162
00:51:53,569 --> 00:51:55,195
you being a major element in this film

1163
00:51:55,279 --> 00:51:57,489
and remembering you coming to Pixar.

1164
00:51:58,198 --> 00:52:00,618
Why was that?
Did you just want to show up or what?

1165
00:52:00,701 --> 00:52:05,456
<i>Yeah, I'm a big Pixar nerd,
and I asked my agent.</i>

1166
00:52:05,539 --> 00:52:07,333
<i>I had a flight back from LA to New York,</i>

1167
00:52:07,416 --> 00:52:10,461
<i>"and I said," Oh, can I make a quick stop
to San Francisco</i>

1168
00:52:10,544 --> 00:52:12,212
<i>"and just take a tour of Pixar?"</i>

1169
00:52:12,296 --> 00:52:14,632
They said,
"Sorry, Pixar doesn't give tours."

1170
00:52:14,715 --> 00:52:16,026
<i>Yeah, they don't give tours,</i>

1171
00:52:16,050 --> 00:52:17,926
<i>but they were nice enough
to give me a tour.</i>

1172
00:52:18,010 --> 00:52:21,847
<i>And I met you and Jonas.
I met everybody, I think, that trip.</i>

1173
00:52:21,930 --> 00:52:24,808
<i>And we had lunch,
and then they showed me around.</i>

1174
00:52:24,892 --> 00:52:27,561
<i>It was amazing,
and then I thought, "Well, that's that."</i>

1175
00:52:27,645 --> 00:52:31,315
<i>And then I think I extended an invitation
to you and Ronnie</i>

1176
00:52:31,398 --> 00:52:35,361
<i>if you guys ever wanted to come
to</i> SNL <i>and see our creative process.</i>

1177
00:52:35,444 --> 00:52:37,196
<i>'Cause we do a show in a week.</i>

1178
00:52:37,279 --> 00:52:39,341
<i>- And you guys take...</i>
- A little longer, yeah.

1179
00:52:40,616 --> 00:52:42,656
Of course, we said,
"No. Of course not."

1180
00:52:43,619 --> 00:52:44,721
We said, "Watch out.
We're going to take you up on that."

1181
00:52:44,745 --> 00:52:46,997
I remember this one moment,
I was thinking,

1182
00:52:47,081 --> 00:52:50,042
"Okay, I guess he says he's a Pixar fan,
but, well, whatever."

1183
00:52:50,125 --> 00:52:52,485
And then you were talking
and then you interrupted yourself,

1184
00:52:52,544 --> 00:52:54,624
and you're like...
"Is that Ralph Eggleston?"

1185
00:52:54,672 --> 00:52:57,552
<i>Yeah, I saw Ralph Eggleston.</i>
<i>I was like, "That's Ralph Eggleston.</i>"

1186
00:52:57,591 --> 00:52:59,694
No, you didn't just say,
"Ralph Eggleston."

1187
00:52:59,718 --> 00:53:03,055
I think you rattled off
all of his movie credits right after.

1188
00:53:03,138 --> 00:53:04,741
- That's right.
- In chronology.

1189
00:53:04,765 --> 00:53:07,184
That's how big a nerd you were.

1190
00:53:07,267 --> 00:53:09,978
But then we realized
Bill knows that much about everything.

1191
00:53:10,062 --> 00:53:11,862
One of the other things
I was going to ask is,

1192
00:53:11,939 --> 00:53:14,501
Ronnie and I weren't in the room
with you and Cooley a lot of times.

1193
00:53:14,525 --> 00:53:16,527
But in addition to doing voice work,

1194
00:53:16,610 --> 00:53:18,696
we were able to con you
into doing some writing.

1195
00:53:18,779 --> 00:53:21,174
<i>You didn't have to con me at all.
You said, "Do you want to write?"</i>

1196
00:53:21,198 --> 00:53:23,951
<i>I go, "I can write in a Pixar movie? Yes!"</i>

1197
00:53:24,034 --> 00:53:25,786
All right.

1198
00:53:26,328 --> 00:53:29,415
<i>Just to see the process too,
of how you guys produce stories.</i>

1199
00:53:29,498 --> 00:53:31,726
And now you know the secret
that it's an absolute mess.

1200
00:53:31,750 --> 00:53:33,377
<i>Yeah, it's a mess. No one knows...</i>

1201
00:53:33,460 --> 00:53:35,897
<i>It's just like everywhere.
No one knows what's going on.</i>

1202
00:53:35,921 --> 00:53:39,216
Thank you.
See that? That's amazing.

1203
00:53:39,299 --> 00:53:43,554
We try to tell people that, and they
feel like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, right."

1204
00:53:43,637 --> 00:53:45,889
"You just don't want to talk
about your secrets."

1205
00:53:45,973 --> 00:53:47,533
So you and Cooley, we'd give you

1206
00:53:47,599 --> 00:53:49,393
specific sequences to work on, right?

1207
00:53:49,476 --> 00:53:52,146
<i>Yeah, mostly I remember working
on Dream Production.</i>

1208
00:53:52,479 --> 00:53:53,897
<i>That was a big one.</i>

1209
00:53:53,981 --> 00:53:56,150
<i>And then we had written
a whole sequence</i>

1210
00:53:56,233 --> 00:54:00,237
<i>for the clown, where there was
all this dental equipment.</i>

1211
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:01,822
Oh, yeah.

1212
00:54:01,905 --> 00:54:05,075
Sharp objects.
It was a forest of dental equipment.

1213
00:54:05,159 --> 00:54:08,245
<i>Of scrapers and awful dentist things.</i>

1214
00:54:09,163 --> 00:54:10,807
<i>And then there was this thing
where the clown made</i>

1215
00:54:10,831 --> 00:54:12,458
<i>balloon animals that came to life,</i>

1216
00:54:12,541 --> 00:54:14,418
<i>and he sicced them
on Joy and Sadness.</i>

1217
00:54:14,501 --> 00:54:15,812
Yeah,
they were pursued out of there.

1218
00:54:15,836 --> 00:54:18,276
<i>And they ran after them
like it was a pack of balloon animals.</i>

1219
00:54:18,338 --> 00:54:20,716
<i>And then they would get caught
on the dentist equipment.</i>

1220
00:54:20,799 --> 00:54:22,551
- Yes.
<i>- And they would break.</i>

1221
00:54:22,634 --> 00:54:25,321
And then I think we made it so
that Joy purposely steered them there.

1222
00:54:25,345 --> 00:54:26,345
- Right?
<i>- Yeah, yeah.</i>

1223
00:54:26,388 --> 00:54:29,683
<i>Joy purposely ran
through the dentist equipment.</i>

1224
00:54:29,767 --> 00:54:32,936
<i>I remember pitching you guys that,
and you guys went, "Yeah!"</i>

1225
00:54:33,020 --> 00:54:34,855
See, that's a cool idea.

1226
00:54:34,938 --> 00:54:36,583
Is it too late to go back and change that?

1227
00:54:36,607 --> 00:54:38,233
<i>Then I remember
we also had a character</i>

1228
00:54:38,692 --> 00:54:41,528
<i>that was a weird girl from school
that was in her night gear.</i>

1229
00:54:41,612 --> 00:54:42,881
Who sat on the monkey bars.

1230
00:54:42,905 --> 00:54:45,866
<i>Yeah, and she turned around and
looked down, and she just went, "Mine!"</i>

1231
00:54:45,949 --> 00:54:46,950
Yeah.

1232
00:54:48,285 --> 00:54:49,345
- Oh, yes.
- Yeah.

1233
00:54:49,369 --> 00:54:51,997
That was so creepy and scary.

1234
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,082
<i>I remember working on that sequence.</i>

1235
00:54:54,166 --> 00:54:57,961
<i>I actually remember
when I first came in really early on,</i>

1236
00:54:58,045 --> 00:55:02,883
<i>you guys had a version of the movie
where Riley was knocked out.</i>

1237
00:55:03,008 --> 00:55:04,927
<i>- Remember that?</i>
- Yes.

1238
00:55:05,010 --> 00:55:08,764
<i>Yeah, she was out in the woods.
She fell down and she got knocked out.</i>

1239
00:55:08,847 --> 00:55:10,432
<i>It was more about waking her up.</i>

1240
00:55:10,516 --> 00:55:13,769
<i>And I remember us talking about that,
and we were all saying,</i>

1241
00:55:13,852 --> 00:55:17,272
<i>"Well, I'm not really worried about
these emotions in her head."</i>

1242
00:55:17,356 --> 00:55:20,484
<i>"I'm more worried about the young girl
out in the elements"</i>

1243
00:55:20,567 --> 00:55:22,295
"<i>lying unconscious in the woods.</i>"

1244
00:55:22,319 --> 00:55:25,359
<i>"I don't know if anybody's gonna really
care about the emotions in her head."</i>

1245
00:55:26,573 --> 00:55:29,409
<i>We were like, "Get her up.
A wolf's going to come and get her."</i>

1246
00:55:29,493 --> 00:55:31,495
<i>I remember that went out the window.</i>

1247
00:55:31,578 --> 00:55:34,665
<i>It was so cool for me
to be able to get a sequence,</i>

1248
00:55:34,748 --> 00:55:36,208
<i>then we would talk it through.</i>

1249
00:55:36,291 --> 00:55:40,087
<i>And then having Cooley there
who also has such a great story brain,</i>

1250
00:55:40,170 --> 00:55:41,797
<i>and Ronnie does... You guys all do.</i>

1251
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:43,423
<i>I can't draw to save my life.</i>

1252
00:55:43,507 --> 00:55:46,176
<i>But just how quickly
they put up boards.</i>

1253
00:55:46,260 --> 00:55:49,263
<i>Just the immediacy
of visual storytelling like that.</i>

1254
00:55:49,346 --> 00:55:51,682
<i>Where I would go,
"You know, it's kind of like...</i>"

1255
00:55:51,765 --> 00:55:54,768
<i>"You know these
kind of dentist equipment?"</i>

1256
00:55:54,852 --> 00:55:57,145
<i>And then Cooley is looking at me
while he's drawing,</i>

1257
00:55:57,229 --> 00:56:00,440
<i>"Uh-huh! Is it something like that?"
I'm like, "Exactly. Exactly like that."</i>

1258
00:56:02,067 --> 00:56:05,320
<i>That was such a cool experience.</i>

1259
00:56:05,404 --> 00:56:08,282
Well, I was going to say
all these ideas sound great,

1260
00:56:08,365 --> 00:56:11,410
and why did we cut them?
But not all of them were great, I guess.

1261
00:56:12,327 --> 00:56:13,346
<i>No. That's the other thing you learn,</i>

1262
00:56:13,370 --> 00:56:15,455
<i>is that you got to stay
with the main characters</i>

1263
00:56:15,539 --> 00:56:17,207
<i>and kind of what they're doing.</i>

1264
00:56:17,291 --> 00:56:21,503
<i>You can't get bogged down
in all these other things.</i>

1265
00:56:21,587 --> 00:56:24,590
<i>All they care about is Joy and Sadness.</i>

1266
00:56:24,673 --> 00:56:27,217
Yeah, and that was actually
why we initially were like,

1267
00:56:27,301 --> 00:56:30,220
"We got to get Bill."
'Cause you do such great characters.

1268
00:56:30,304 --> 00:56:32,615
I think that was one of the first things
we plumbed your brain for,

1269
00:56:32,639 --> 00:56:33,849
is like, who is Sadness and...

1270
00:56:33,932 --> 00:56:35,142
<i>Oh, right.</i>

1271
00:56:35,225 --> 00:56:36,744
<i>- Remember I did all the characters?</i>
- Yeah.

1272
00:56:36,768 --> 00:56:38,687
<i>You guys put me in the studio
and you said,</i>

1273
00:56:38,770 --> 00:56:40,480
<i>"What would a Sadness person
sound like?"</i>

1274
00:56:40,564 --> 00:56:42,274
<i>Yeah, I did 'em all.</i>

1275
00:56:42,357 --> 00:56:45,152
"Oh, it's so bad..." That...

1276
00:56:45,235 --> 00:56:48,488
For a long time,
that's what Sadness sounded like.

1277
00:56:50,657 --> 00:56:53,660
<i>Gosh! My oldest daughter was one,
so that was four or five years ago.</i>

1278
00:56:53,744 --> 00:56:55,454
Yeah.

1279
00:56:55,537 --> 00:56:58,081
- It's been a long road.
<i>- It's been a long road but it was fun.</i>

1280
00:56:58,165 --> 00:57:01,084
<i>And you guys came to</i> SNL
<i>and you guys watched us,</i>

1281
00:57:01,168 --> 00:57:04,254
<i>and you sat in the rewrite table,
at the table-read.</i>

1282
00:57:04,338 --> 00:57:05,648
- Yeah, we did.
- Yes.

1283
00:57:05,672 --> 00:57:08,592
<i>I remember you guys sitting there,
watching us shoot.</i>

1284
00:57:08,675 --> 00:57:14,222
<i>Going into where the director is
in the booth, and all these things.</i>

1285
00:57:14,306 --> 00:57:16,016
<i>And then when you watch
Dream Production,</i>

1286
00:57:16,099 --> 00:57:17,160
<i>a lot of that ends up in there.</i>

1287
00:57:17,184 --> 00:57:18,184
Yeah.

1288
00:57:18,310 --> 00:57:19,728
- Yeah, we even did the...
<i>- Cards.</i>

1289
00:57:19,811 --> 00:57:21,497
The cards,
which I guess you guys said

1290
00:57:21,521 --> 00:57:25,359
nobody else really does cue cards
with actual physical cards anymore.

1291
00:57:25,442 --> 00:57:27,611
<i>- Yeah.</i>
- But we put that in.

1292
00:57:27,694 --> 00:57:29,780
We got to sit
and watch the writers sweat

1293
00:57:29,863 --> 00:57:32,324
as they perform the skits.

1294
00:57:32,407 --> 00:57:35,285
Yeah, it was
a great learning experience.

1295
00:57:35,369 --> 00:57:38,288
We actually were so inspired
that when we came back,

1296
00:57:38,372 --> 00:57:40,582
we actually had a lot of that glow

1297
00:57:40,666 --> 00:57:44,586
of having been in <i>SNL</i>
and how they create.

1298
00:57:44,670 --> 00:57:47,339
And you're right,
there was a lot of the cues, too.

1299
00:57:47,422 --> 00:57:50,634
When we have a Dream Production,

1300
00:57:50,717 --> 00:57:53,553
the makeup people
that you were riffing that

1301
00:57:53,637 --> 00:57:55,681
the director would say,
"Okay, we're ready."

1302
00:57:55,764 --> 00:57:56,848
"Makeup, get out of there."

1303
00:57:56,932 --> 00:57:59,226
That's all from you just workshopping.

1304
00:57:59,309 --> 00:58:01,853
And we had to put it in.
It felt so natural.

1305
00:58:01,937 --> 00:58:04,207
'Cause watching you go
from one sketch to another,

1306
00:58:04,231 --> 00:58:06,149
it would be like
an entire wardrobe change,

1307
00:58:06,233 --> 00:58:07,985
new hair, new everything.

1308
00:58:08,068 --> 00:58:10,737
And 14 seconds later,
blam, you're in somewhere else.

1309
00:58:10,821 --> 00:58:12,197
<i>Also, you have</i> SNL...

1310
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:15,993
<i>Paula Pell,
as the voice of the director, right?</i>

1311
00:58:16,076 --> 00:58:18,912
<i>Paula Pell is one of
the great</i> SNL <i>writers</i>

1312
00:58:18,996 --> 00:58:21,123
<i>and one of
the loveliest people on earth.</i>

1313
00:58:21,206 --> 00:58:23,046
Yeah, Amy suggested,
when we asked her,

1314
00:58:23,125 --> 00:58:25,002
"Who should we get to play
the director?"

1315
00:58:25,085 --> 00:58:28,255
I think pretty immediately
she was like, "Paula."

1316
00:58:28,338 --> 00:58:30,799
<i>Paula is amazing. I think all of us just...</i>

1317
00:58:30,882 --> 00:58:35,012
<i>If we could put Paula in every project,
we would. She's great.</i>

1318
00:58:35,095 --> 00:58:39,516
<i>She's one of the...</i>
<i>In the Mount Rushmore of</i> SNL <i>writers.</i>

1319
00:58:39,599 --> 00:58:41,810
She would be
on the cliff, chiseled in.

1320
00:58:41,893 --> 00:58:43,645
<i>Yes, she'd be chiseled in</i>

1321
00:58:43,729 --> 00:58:45,814
<i>right next to Jim Downey
and people like that.</i>

1322
00:58:45,897 --> 00:58:46,940
Cool.

1323
00:58:47,024 --> 00:58:49,693
All right, well, thanks, Bill.
We won't take any more of your time.

1324
00:58:49,776 --> 00:58:51,695
<i>- Thanks, guys.</i>
- Cool.

1325
00:58:51,778 --> 00:58:53,698
<i>- I'll talk to you guys later.</i>
- See you.

1326
00:58:55,198 --> 00:58:58,368
So, obviously, the music
was a huge part of the film as well.

1327
00:58:58,452 --> 00:59:00,871
And working with Michael,
as we had on <i>Up,</i>

1328
00:59:00,954 --> 00:59:02,831
was an absolute joy.

1329
00:59:02,914 --> 00:59:05,375
- It's a dream.
- He's great to work with.

1330
00:59:05,459 --> 00:59:08,336
And just watching his process
is really cool.

1331
00:59:08,420 --> 00:59:11,048
In fact, why don't we give him a call too?

1332
00:59:11,131 --> 00:59:12,775
Really?
Let's call him. Let's call him.

1333
00:59:12,799 --> 00:59:14,801
He can speak for himself
about the process.

1334
00:59:14,885 --> 00:59:16,053
It will be fun.

1335
00:59:16,136 --> 00:59:17,447
Here, I think I have his number.

1336
00:59:23,810 --> 00:59:26,521
He's probably going,
"What number is that?"

1337
00:59:26,605 --> 00:59:28,273
"I'm not answering that phone."

1338
00:59:30,067 --> 00:59:31,961
<i>You've reached the office
of Michael Giacchino.</i>

1339
00:59:31,985 --> 00:59:34,029
<i>We're not able to answer
the phone right now.</i>

1340
00:59:34,112 --> 00:59:35,465
<i>So, if you'll please leave us a message,</i>

1341
00:59:35,489 --> 00:59:37,616
<i>we'll return your call
as soon as possible.</i>

1342
00:59:37,699 --> 00:59:41,328
<i>If this is an emergency, you can
contact Michael's assistant David.</i>

1343
00:59:41,411 --> 00:59:43,806
Well, I guess he wasn't there.
Hey, Michael, this is Pete.

1344
00:59:43,830 --> 00:59:46,500
We were just making the commentary
for the DVD

1345
00:59:46,583 --> 00:59:48,835
and thought we'd give you a call
and talk about it,

1346
00:59:48,919 --> 00:59:50,337
but you're not there.

1347
00:59:50,420 --> 00:59:54,883
So, now we have your
voicemail. All right, see you. Bye.

1348
00:59:54,966 --> 00:59:56,676
All right, so he wasn't there.

1349
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:59,262
I think it's because
I think you owe him money.

1350
00:59:59,346 --> 01:00:03,308
I made him mad?
He's not taking my call.

1351
01:00:14,528 --> 01:00:17,197
So, this is where Anger, of course,
plugs that idea in.

1352
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:18,448
I had one pass where

1353
01:00:18,532 --> 01:00:20,676
the first time he thought of it
was when he plugged it in.

1354
01:00:20,700 --> 01:00:22,661
Yeah, yeah,
it used to happen quicker.

1355
01:00:22,744 --> 01:00:25,747
But the tension and the escalation,
we didn't feel it.

1356
01:00:25,831 --> 01:00:27,999
That's why we had to parse it out
a little more.

1357
01:00:28,083 --> 01:00:30,520
The other thing we realized,
"Well, if this is the threat,"

1358
01:00:30,544 --> 01:00:34,131
"if Riley's personality
and Riley's safety is what's at stake,"

1359
01:00:34,214 --> 01:00:37,092
"let's introduce that threat
earlier in Act 2"

1360
01:00:37,175 --> 01:00:40,762
"and use it as kind of
a Sword of Damocles hanging over us."

1361
01:00:40,846 --> 01:00:42,657
For the longest time,
we were trying to find out

1362
01:00:42,681 --> 01:00:44,700
what was the worst thing
that could happen to Riley.

1363
01:00:44,724 --> 01:00:47,769
We went, "Well, she could be
actually knocked out"

1364
01:00:47,853 --> 01:00:50,147
"or she could get lost somewhere."

1365
01:00:50,230 --> 01:00:52,708
Eventually, we landed on the fact
that the worst thing that could happen

1366
01:00:52,732 --> 01:00:54,377
is if she actually
just wanted to run away.

1367
01:00:54,401 --> 01:00:57,571
We had that idea early
but we doubted that it would be enough.

1368
01:00:57,654 --> 01:00:58,798
Well, the reason I think was.

1369
01:00:58,822 --> 01:01:00,907
Joy and Sadness
are the protagonists of this thing.

1370
01:01:00,991 --> 01:01:02,576
Joy being the protagonist that is.

1371
01:01:02,659 --> 01:01:06,746
So, if Riley is in physical danger,
Joy has no power, right?

1372
01:01:06,830 --> 01:01:08,206
She can't affect that at all.

1373
01:01:08,290 --> 01:01:10,333
So, we have to somehow
design this in a way

1374
01:01:10,417 --> 01:01:12,210
that the emotions
can come to the rescue

1375
01:01:12,294 --> 01:01:13,837
and save this kid.

1376
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:15,815
Rather than
putting her in physical danger,

1377
01:01:15,839 --> 01:01:17,674
we wanted to make it
an emotional choice.

1378
01:01:18,466 --> 01:01:21,136
Or the reason that
all of these things are going wrong

1379
01:01:21,219 --> 01:01:23,847
is because Joy and Sadness
are not back in Headquarters.

1380
01:01:23,930 --> 01:01:27,350
If only they were back in Headquarters,
things would turn around.

1381
01:01:27,434 --> 01:01:28,911
So, there
they go off to screen left.

1382
01:01:28,935 --> 01:01:30,645
This déjà vu gag was something

1383
01:01:30,729 --> 01:01:33,398
that we wrote originally
for elsewhere in the film.

1384
01:01:33,481 --> 01:01:35,525
But we needed some sort of levity here

1385
01:01:35,609 --> 01:01:38,195
because we had
some large stretches of dark stuff.

1386
01:01:38,278 --> 01:01:40,423
I just relocated it,
and it seemed to work pretty well.

1387
01:01:40,447 --> 01:01:41,549
It works much better here.

1388
01:01:41,573 --> 01:01:44,534
This sequence, this was born
out of the Memory Dump.

1389
01:01:44,618 --> 01:01:47,537
So, this is just another example
of how everything jumps around,

1390
01:01:47,621 --> 01:01:49,501
like you don't just move forward
through a film.

1391
01:01:49,581 --> 01:01:52,250
And interestingly, this sequence
in the Memory Dump

1392
01:01:52,334 --> 01:01:54,419
was there from the very, very beginning

1393
01:01:54,502 --> 01:01:56,838
as a placeholder of what would happen.

1394
01:01:56,922 --> 01:01:59,549
Joy needed to have an epiphany
and learn something deep,

1395
01:01:59,633 --> 01:02:03,178
but it was never really clear what it was
that she was learning or how.

1396
01:02:03,261 --> 01:02:07,057
It wasn't till pretty late that Ronnie
went off and reboarded that.

1397
01:02:07,140 --> 01:02:10,143
As a part of that, you went backwards
to this scene to say...

1398
01:02:10,227 --> 01:02:13,438
This is setting up this idea
of the twisty tree and Joy loves it,

1399
01:02:13,521 --> 01:02:16,274
which we're then going to come back to
and understand why.

1400
01:02:16,358 --> 01:02:17,960
This is the way we make movies.

1401
01:02:17,984 --> 01:02:21,363
We arrive at the dark night
of the soul of Joy

1402
01:02:21,446 --> 01:02:24,199
coming to terms
with learning what's really important.

1403
01:02:24,282 --> 01:02:26,868
But we also try to solve all of it
in that one sequence.

1404
01:02:26,952 --> 01:02:30,372
Because it was like,
"Oh, my God. This is going to work."

1405
01:02:30,455 --> 01:02:34,042
But people were wondering, "Well,
it feels like that would be the solution"

1406
01:02:34,125 --> 01:02:36,878
"but we didn't earn
that solution just yet."

1407
01:02:36,962 --> 01:02:40,757
So that's why it's like, "Oh, where can
we find ways to plant the seed"

1408
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:43,677
"of where her epiphany would begin?"

1409
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:45,947
This beat here
where Riley steals the credit card

1410
01:02:45,971 --> 01:02:47,430
is our tribute to Hitchcock.

1411
01:02:47,514 --> 01:02:48,974
When we were making it,

1412
01:02:49,057 --> 01:02:51,184
it felt like it needed a lot more tension.

1413
01:02:51,268 --> 01:02:53,228
And I'm such a big fan of Hitchcock,

1414
01:02:53,311 --> 01:02:56,940
specifically the scenes in <i>Marnie</i>
when she's stealing from the safe.

1415
01:02:57,023 --> 01:02:58,400
And the cleaning lady comes in.

1416
01:02:58,483 --> 01:02:59,543
I remember you
talking about that.

1417
01:02:59,567 --> 01:03:01,987
So, we kind of
made room for it to be

1418
01:03:02,070 --> 01:03:03,321
that kind of tension of like,

1419
01:03:03,405 --> 01:03:05,073
"Will she get caught?"

1420
01:03:05,156 --> 01:03:07,917
There's really an interesting
lesson when we were mixing this.

1421
01:03:07,993 --> 01:03:10,829
On a gut instinct I said,
"Bring the music way back."

1422
01:03:10,912 --> 01:03:14,124
"And bring all the little creaks and pops,
things you think of as Foley,"

1423
01:03:14,207 --> 01:03:16,251
"bring that all forward
because that's the way..."

1424
01:03:16,334 --> 01:03:19,504
When you're sneaking around,
you're hyper-attuned, hyperaware.

1425
01:03:19,587 --> 01:03:22,173
And that really, to me,
made the tension ratchet up.

1426
01:03:22,257 --> 01:03:24,538
- Yeah, it worked.
- Which is pretty cool.

1427
01:03:26,803 --> 01:03:30,348
The Train of Thought derailing was...

1428
01:03:30,432 --> 01:03:32,642
I tried forever to get
a joke in there of...

1429
01:03:32,726 --> 01:03:35,562
Like cutting to Riley
in the middle of saying something

1430
01:03:35,645 --> 01:03:38,565
and then,
"I'm sorry, I lost my train of thought."

1431
01:03:38,648 --> 01:03:41,151
But it just felt like the wrong place.

1432
01:03:41,234 --> 01:03:42,753
Because it was
a high drama moment.

1433
01:03:42,777 --> 01:03:44,988
But if it wasn't quite like that,
it would have worked.

1434
01:03:45,071 --> 01:03:46,072
Yeah.

1435
01:04:09,554 --> 01:04:12,682
This piece right here is this great piece
of music by Michael Giacchino.

1436
01:04:12,766 --> 01:04:15,977
And I remember talking to him about

1437
01:04:16,061 --> 01:04:19,606
this repeating phrase
that just drives this whole sequence.

1438
01:04:25,695 --> 01:04:28,090
And he was saying, "Well,
you know how when you're exercising"

1439
01:04:28,114 --> 01:04:30,700
"or really focused for some reason,"

1440
01:04:30,784 --> 01:04:34,037
"you kind of get this one piece
of music caught in your head"

1441
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:35,240
"and it loops and it loops."

1442
01:04:35,288 --> 01:04:37,916
And so it's very psychologically based,
I thought.

1443
01:04:37,999 --> 01:04:39,459
It's pretty neat.

1444
01:04:43,296 --> 01:04:46,508
And it does a great job
of driving this whole sequence

1445
01:04:46,591 --> 01:04:47,801
as Riley is now running away,

1446
01:04:47,884 --> 01:04:50,762
the worst thing possible
for our characters.

1447
01:04:50,845 --> 01:04:52,972
They're trying to stop her
from doing that,

1448
01:04:53,056 --> 01:04:55,100
but obviously, it doesn't work out.

1449
01:05:17,122 --> 01:05:21,459
This was another scene that took
a lot of redoing, like all of them.

1450
01:05:21,543 --> 01:05:25,004
But we're focusing on the ones
that seemed especially hard to crack.

1451
01:05:26,339 --> 01:05:27,525
How do I put this?

1452
01:05:27,549 --> 01:05:30,093
- Because it's difficult, it's painful.
- Yeah, yeah.

1453
01:05:30,176 --> 01:05:32,387
Because we did it
over and over again,

1454
01:05:32,470 --> 01:05:34,722
we knew what it needed to do.

1455
01:05:34,806 --> 01:05:37,684
This was going to be Joy choosing...

1456
01:05:37,767 --> 01:05:39,602
- She's actually backsliding.
- Yeah.

1457
01:05:39,686 --> 01:05:42,447
When she's starting
to actually relate to Sadness already,

1458
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:45,483
things are seemingly working
between them, the duo,

1459
01:05:45,567 --> 01:05:48,236
she reverts to
a former version of herself,

1460
01:05:48,319 --> 01:05:50,613
that one that chooses poorly.

1461
01:05:50,697 --> 01:05:52,866
You're right, Pete.
We did it over and over again.

1462
01:05:52,949 --> 01:05:56,744
And I think it worked in various ways,
but towards the end,

1463
01:05:56,828 --> 01:05:58,955
we wanted to make sure that it's ironclad

1464
01:05:59,038 --> 01:06:02,917
that she makes the worst decision
at the wrong time.

1465
01:06:03,001 --> 01:06:05,563
At some point, we sort of
realized it was a mechanical problem.

1466
01:06:05,587 --> 01:06:08,673
We need to design something
that does not allow Sadness and Joy

1467
01:06:08,756 --> 01:06:11,801
to fit into the same space
without changing the memories.

1468
01:06:11,885 --> 01:06:13,386
So, Joy has to choose.

1469
01:06:13,470 --> 01:06:16,431
"Do I either bring my friend up
and change Riley?"

1470
01:06:16,514 --> 01:06:19,517
"Or do I preserve Riley
and abandon my friend?"

1471
01:06:19,601 --> 01:06:22,145
And, of course,
she then chooses poorly.

1472
01:06:22,228 --> 01:06:23,980
Riley walks out into the fog.

1473
01:06:24,063 --> 01:06:26,816
I remember Ralph Eggleston,
our production designer,

1474
01:06:27,358 --> 01:06:31,321
having a couple ideas of how to connect
the real world and the Mind World.

1475
01:06:31,404 --> 01:06:34,991
And fog was another of those
that just feels very psychological.

1476
01:06:35,074 --> 01:06:39,662
And it was inherent in San Francisco
that this fog would be across the city

1477
01:06:39,746 --> 01:06:42,957
that would kind of equate to
what's going on in Riley's head.

1478
01:06:43,041 --> 01:06:45,201
- The fog of the mind.
- Yeah, exactly.

1479
01:06:45,919 --> 01:06:47,670
All right, so now the Memory Dump.

1480
01:06:47,754 --> 01:06:49,899
One of the first pieces of artwork
I remember you doing

1481
01:06:49,923 --> 01:06:53,676
was that one of Joy standing there,
and it's blue-green

1482
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:56,429
as all the memories are falling
into the Memory Dump.

1483
01:06:56,513 --> 01:06:57,907
- Remember this?
- Yes, yes.

1484
01:06:57,931 --> 01:07:00,475
This is going back in time

1485
01:07:00,558 --> 01:07:02,685
when Pete and I
were the only people in production.

1486
01:07:02,769 --> 01:07:05,146
Actually back then,
we wanted to find a way,

1487
01:07:05,230 --> 01:07:07,607
maybe Riley herself
can be in the journey.

1488
01:07:07,690 --> 01:07:10,235
- And we had versions of that too.
- Yeah.

1489
01:07:10,318 --> 01:07:12,779
But our process, between Pete and I, is

1490
01:07:12,862 --> 01:07:15,657
we will talk about things
and then I would draw something.

1491
01:07:15,740 --> 01:07:18,260
Or I would talk about something
and Pete would suggest something

1492
01:07:18,326 --> 01:07:21,829
that makes me think of these pictures
and these images.

1493
01:07:21,913 --> 01:07:25,458
And that was one of those things
that made us think about

1494
01:07:25,542 --> 01:07:29,712
how we can isolate Joy
in a desolate place,

1495
01:07:29,796 --> 01:07:33,216
that also brings in this rain of memories

1496
01:07:33,299 --> 01:07:35,552
that's coming from the sky.

1497
01:07:35,635 --> 01:07:38,763
Yeah, and I think
the point there was, just emotionally,

1498
01:07:38,846 --> 01:07:40,640
in this world of the mind,

1499
01:07:40,765 --> 01:07:43,017
the concept of memories
being forgotten

1500
01:07:43,101 --> 01:07:47,230
just seemed very potent
and something to mess with.

1501
01:07:47,522 --> 01:07:51,025
And that all, of course,
comes from Pete's observations

1502
01:07:51,109 --> 01:07:52,902
of his daughter changing.

1503
01:07:52,986 --> 01:07:57,073
You would talk about looking at pictures
of them when they were younger.

1504
01:07:57,156 --> 01:07:58,408
Yeah.

1505
01:07:58,491 --> 01:08:00,469
And...
"Aw, they were so cute back then."

1506
01:08:00,493 --> 01:08:02,221
Yeah, kind of
breaks your heart in a way.

1507
01:08:02,245 --> 01:08:04,581
Right? I remember
when you talk about that,

1508
01:08:04,664 --> 01:08:06,791
it reminds me of my kids too.

1509
01:08:06,874 --> 01:08:08,185
And sort of like, yeah, you're right,

1510
01:08:08,209 --> 01:08:10,878
because there would be
like a stretch of just weeks

1511
01:08:10,962 --> 01:08:12,922
wherein they already look different.

1512
01:08:13,006 --> 01:08:15,925
And then you as a parent start thinking,

1513
01:08:16,009 --> 01:08:18,428
it's like, "Wait, I don't think
I'm paying attention enough."

1514
01:08:18,511 --> 01:08:21,222
"They're growing up,
and I didn't notice them change."

1515
01:08:21,306 --> 01:08:22,765
Yeah.

1516
01:08:24,309 --> 01:08:28,563
This is what turned out to be
the longest shot in the film.

1517
01:08:28,646 --> 01:08:29,856
It was one of the very last.

1518
01:08:29,981 --> 01:08:32,358
In fact, I think it was
the last shot to be final,

1519
01:08:32,442 --> 01:08:36,237
because this sequence, even though
it was there from the very beginning,

1520
01:08:36,321 --> 01:08:39,866
came under a lot of scrutiny
of how heavy do we get,

1521
01:08:39,949 --> 01:08:41,117
how long is it.

1522
01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:42,720
And so, there was
a lot of back and forth.

1523
01:08:42,744 --> 01:08:46,039
We animated all around this shot,
this one shot.

1524
01:08:46,122 --> 01:08:49,751
Because it was a lot of debate
about how deep should we get.

1525
01:08:49,834 --> 01:08:53,796
How long should we allow her
to sit there and reminisce,

1526
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:56,841
and how to make it
the most emotional that it could be.

1527
01:08:56,924 --> 01:09:01,471
So it really only crystallized
at the very, very end of production,

1528
01:09:01,554 --> 01:09:04,390
and then, of course, the animators
had to crank through it.

1529
01:09:04,474 --> 01:09:06,559
And it really, well, the good thing was

1530
01:09:06,643 --> 01:09:09,312
it forced us to really
break down the beats.

1531
01:09:09,395 --> 01:09:12,774
So if you look at any animated shot,
I like to think of it in beats.

1532
01:09:12,857 --> 01:09:17,487
So you have these very clear phrases
of what's going on throughout the shot,

1533
01:09:17,570 --> 01:09:19,656
and you can break it down
and talk about each beat

1534
01:09:19,739 --> 01:09:21,050
and what's emotionally important,

1535
01:09:21,074 --> 01:09:23,910
and then what brings you
to the next beat and so on.

1536
01:09:23,993 --> 01:09:27,705
So, the animator did a fantastic job
of making that all very clear,

1537
01:09:27,789 --> 01:09:29,332
and of course Amy's performance.

1538
01:09:29,415 --> 01:09:33,002
I remember, for this sequence,
we turned the lights down,

1539
01:09:33,086 --> 01:09:36,506
we cleared the room out,
and we talked a lot about her kids.

1540
01:09:36,589 --> 01:09:40,176
And watching them grow up,
and kind of getting her in the mood.

1541
01:09:40,259 --> 01:09:42,303
And she did it a couple of times.

1542
01:09:42,387 --> 01:09:44,639
And I kind of felt bad but I said,

1543
01:09:44,722 --> 01:09:48,476
"I'm not quite buying it yet,
can you just really go for it?"

1544
01:09:48,559 --> 01:09:49,602
And she said, "Okay."

1545
01:09:49,686 --> 01:09:53,398
And she took a moment and she
gave us this great, great performance,

1546
01:09:53,481 --> 01:09:55,692
which just makes me cry
even just to think about it.

1547
01:09:55,775 --> 01:09:57,860
Amazing, amazing.
Actually we'd done

1548
01:09:57,944 --> 01:10:00,196
many attempts of this very sad moment.

1549
01:10:00,279 --> 01:10:04,492
And each time when she gets to it,
she starts tearing up.

1550
01:10:04,575 --> 01:10:06,703
And it makes me tear up.

1551
01:10:06,786 --> 01:10:08,538
Yeah, and all the specifics of,

1552
01:10:08,621 --> 01:10:11,301
"Do you remember when she used to
stick her tongue out" and whatnot,

1553
01:10:11,332 --> 01:10:12,625
those all came from...

1554
01:10:12,709 --> 01:10:17,130
I think we learned on <i>Up</i> that the more
specific and truthful you can be,

1555
01:10:17,213 --> 01:10:19,048
the more meaningful the scene will be.

1556
01:10:19,132 --> 01:10:22,093
So that's... My daughter would stick
her tongue out when she was coloring,

1557
01:10:22,176 --> 01:10:24,321
and so those were all kind of things
that we pulled from.

1558
01:10:24,345 --> 01:10:27,056
I know, all of our
family stories are somehow nested

1559
01:10:27,140 --> 01:10:28,224
in all these sequences.

1560
01:10:28,307 --> 01:10:29,785
Yeah, that's true.
The Sadness voiceover,

1561
01:10:29,809 --> 01:10:31,829
I remember that was something
that you added, Ronnie,

1562
01:10:31,853 --> 01:10:34,772
and bridging back to that scene
in the train...

1563
01:10:34,856 --> 01:10:36,125
Yeah, that's always fun.

1564
01:10:36,149 --> 01:10:37,793
When Pete and I were
working together, we would be,

1565
01:10:37,817 --> 01:10:41,320
just to push production
outside of our rooms,

1566
01:10:41,404 --> 01:10:43,197
we'd just go and hole up,

1567
01:10:43,281 --> 01:10:45,867
and we're trying to
make these elements play...

1568
01:10:45,950 --> 01:10:46,951
Yeah.

1569
01:10:47,034 --> 01:10:48,303
And when
we're pitching to each other,

1570
01:10:48,327 --> 01:10:51,831
these kinds of epiphanies
and solutions show up.

1571
01:10:51,914 --> 01:10:54,333
Because the pressure of production
is like just at bay,

1572
01:10:54,417 --> 01:10:55,978
"We have half an hour,
let's work on this."

1573
01:10:56,002 --> 01:10:57,003
"Yeah, go, go."

1574
01:10:57,086 --> 01:10:58,897
And then
kind of stepped to the left

1575
01:10:58,921 --> 01:10:59,982
and to the right of something,

1576
01:11:00,006 --> 01:11:02,383
and then, "Oh, wait. What did you say?"

1577
01:11:02,467 --> 01:11:03,467
And then, "Yeah."

1578
01:11:03,509 --> 01:11:06,262
And it's, a lot of it is somehow
yearning for something.

1579
01:11:06,345 --> 01:11:07,346
Yeah.

1580
01:11:07,430 --> 01:11:09,766
I remember
that I wished that Joy

1581
01:11:09,849 --> 01:11:14,896
could hear again
what Sadness had said.

1582
01:11:14,979 --> 01:11:15,979
Mmm-hmm.

1583
01:11:16,230 --> 01:11:18,733
I wished that she could hear...

1584
01:11:18,816 --> 01:11:20,860
Oh, so that's what
brought that idea out?

1585
01:11:20,943 --> 01:11:23,380
It's kind of like those
conversations you have with people,

1586
01:11:23,404 --> 01:11:26,449
you're kind of like,
your ears are taking the data in,

1587
01:11:26,532 --> 01:11:27,992
but it's not really sinking in.

1588
01:11:28,075 --> 01:11:29,970
- Yeah, I know what you mean.
- Right? So.

1589
01:11:29,994 --> 01:11:34,332
And this is the only time
it actually comes home for her.

1590
01:11:34,415 --> 01:11:35,815
Yeah.

1591
01:11:36,209 --> 01:11:37,519
"This is what she meant."

1592
01:11:37,543 --> 01:11:38,544
Yeah.

1593
01:11:45,426 --> 01:11:49,180
This cue was one of the very few
that we redid.

1594
01:11:49,263 --> 01:11:52,558
I think Michael originally wrote it
a little more peppy and upbeat.

1595
01:11:53,059 --> 01:11:55,520
Not that it's not peppy,
it has a great energy to it now.

1596
01:11:55,603 --> 01:11:58,064
But I think it was basically
the same thing in a major key,

1597
01:11:58,147 --> 01:12:01,150
so it felt like, "Hey, we're gonna
make it!" from the get-go.

1598
01:12:01,234 --> 01:12:03,986
And so we went back
and redid it in a minor key

1599
01:12:04,070 --> 01:12:06,447
so as to imply like,
"We may not make it."

1600
01:12:06,531 --> 01:12:07,698
Yes.

1601
01:12:08,491 --> 01:12:11,869
- And Bing Bong disappearing...
- Mmm-hmm.

1602
01:12:11,953 --> 01:12:14,205
Is one of those thematic things

1603
01:12:14,288 --> 01:12:16,791
that we wanted from the beginning.

1604
01:12:16,874 --> 01:12:20,294
Because he is that symbol of childhood

1605
01:12:20,378 --> 01:12:21,838
that is fading away.

1606
01:12:21,921 --> 01:12:24,507
He's already an out-of-work
imaginary friend.

1607
01:12:24,590 --> 01:12:27,343
- He doesn't have a role in Riley's life.
- Yeah.

1608
01:12:27,426 --> 01:12:30,513
And here he is,
in the worst place in the mind,

1609
01:12:30,596 --> 01:12:33,766
wherein if you're in there,
you are gonna disappear.

1610
01:12:33,850 --> 01:12:37,436
And this is the last moment
that he's gonna be solid.

1611
01:12:37,520 --> 01:12:40,356
And it's his chance
to be back with Riley

1612
01:12:40,439 --> 01:12:42,608
in a way that
you wouldn't have thought of.

1613
01:12:42,692 --> 01:12:44,527
Like, it's his way to save Riley,

1614
01:12:44,610 --> 01:12:47,363
like, his sacrifice is
what gets Joy back up there.

1615
01:12:47,446 --> 01:12:51,200
We know that Riley's gonna be okay,
and when he disappears...

1616
01:12:51,284 --> 01:12:52,594
I remember,
this is one of those moments

1617
01:12:52,618 --> 01:12:54,036
that you live for in this business.

1618
01:12:54,120 --> 01:12:55,760
Because so much of it, believe it or not,

1619
01:12:55,830 --> 01:12:59,876
so much of what we do
is work, work, work,

1620
01:12:59,959 --> 01:13:01,919
and drudgery a little bit.

1621
01:13:02,003 --> 01:13:04,883
But once in a while, you have these
moments where you look at each other,

1622
01:13:04,922 --> 01:13:06,525
and you're kind of
completing each other's sentences,

1623
01:13:06,549 --> 01:13:07,651
and you're so excited about,

1624
01:13:07,675 --> 01:13:10,344
"Oh, my gosh, we have this character
who represents childhood."

1625
01:13:10,428 --> 01:13:13,097
"Of course he needs to disappear
just like childhood does,"

1626
01:13:13,180 --> 01:13:15,391
"and it's all symbolic,
and, yeah, perfect!"

1627
01:13:15,474 --> 01:13:16,767
And I knew this would be...

1628
01:13:16,851 --> 01:13:19,312
Well, I hoped that
it would be emotional for people.

1629
01:13:19,395 --> 01:13:21,555
And sure enough, I mean,
we've had a lot of people say,

1630
01:13:21,606 --> 01:13:24,358
"Isn't there some way to maybe
bring Bing Bong back at the end?"

1631
01:13:24,442 --> 01:13:27,278
"'Cause we don't like
that he disappears, he's so sad..."

1632
01:13:27,361 --> 01:13:30,615
Like, "Well, childhood can't come back
so he has to die."

1633
01:13:30,698 --> 01:13:31,925
Yes.

1634
01:13:31,949 --> 01:13:33,427
- We like to torture people.
- Yeah.

1635
01:13:33,451 --> 01:13:35,178
No, actually,
Pete, this moment was

1636
01:13:35,202 --> 01:13:37,330
working very well when he disappears,

1637
01:13:37,413 --> 01:13:38,789
when he actually does.

1638
01:13:38,873 --> 01:13:41,073
- Back then, we had him do a somersault.
- Yeah!

1639
01:13:41,334 --> 01:13:43,103
And he was
very high-energy and peppy.

1640
01:13:43,127 --> 01:13:46,422
And then he waves silently
and disappears.

1641
01:13:46,505 --> 01:13:51,260
And then you had put in another recall

1642
01:13:51,344 --> 01:13:55,681
of what he wanted to do
when he gets back, with Riley.

1643
01:13:56,098 --> 01:13:58,434
His hopes. And he knows
he's not gonna be able to do it,

1644
01:13:58,517 --> 01:13:59,769
so you put in that line.

1645
01:13:59,852 --> 01:14:02,855
He's saying, he's like,
"Well, take her to the moon for me."

1646
01:14:02,939 --> 01:14:04,690
Which, to me, kind of says,

1647
01:14:04,774 --> 01:14:07,568
"Make sure she has a little bit
of childhood as she grows up."

1648
01:14:07,652 --> 01:14:10,029
- You know? "Hang on to that."
- I know. I know.

1649
01:14:10,112 --> 01:14:11,697
That was perfect.

1650
01:14:13,199 --> 01:14:16,994
And I know that people, their heart
breaks a little bit when they see that.

1651
01:14:17,078 --> 01:14:19,664
"Oh, no! I love Bing Bong."

1652
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:24,686
So then
we're into the third act now.

1653
01:14:24,710 --> 01:14:26,796
How do we get Joy
back to Headquarters?

1654
01:14:26,879 --> 01:14:29,298
And this was actually
a really tough nut to crack.

1655
01:14:29,382 --> 01:14:30,549
I guess we keep saying that.

1656
01:14:30,633 --> 01:14:31,926
The whole movie was tough.

1657
01:14:32,009 --> 01:14:33,803
Yeah, everything was so tough.

1658
01:14:33,886 --> 01:14:37,306
"Yeah, yeah, you draw and
you make cartoons, how hard can it be?"

1659
01:14:37,390 --> 01:14:38,390
Yeah.

1660
01:14:38,432 --> 01:14:39,976
It is, trust me.

1661
01:14:40,059 --> 01:14:43,688
Because every day
you have this problem to solve,

1662
01:14:43,771 --> 01:14:48,818
and it doesn't yield answers for years
even though you get really close to it,

1663
01:14:48,901 --> 01:14:50,277
and that's frustrating.

1664
01:14:50,361 --> 01:14:53,489
I think one of the keys to this
was realizing

1665
01:14:53,572 --> 01:14:56,409
if Joy has been trying to keep
Sadness away from Headquarters,

1666
01:14:57,410 --> 01:15:00,204
now she wants to get Sadness
to Headquarters.

1667
01:15:00,287 --> 01:15:02,206
So, let's not make that easy for her.

1668
01:15:02,289 --> 01:15:06,419
Let's make the characters,
not just the situation, in opposition.

1669
01:15:06,502 --> 01:15:07,503
So we went backwards.

1670
01:15:07,586 --> 01:15:09,588
And even though
it's a little bit loose, I think,

1671
01:15:09,672 --> 01:15:12,174
as to why Sadness is trying to run away,

1672
01:15:12,258 --> 01:15:16,804
she's sort of feeling guilt-ridden and
responsible for all these bad things.

1673
01:15:16,887 --> 01:15:20,725
But Joy now has to work
to get her and bring her back,

1674
01:15:20,808 --> 01:15:23,269
so that then really helped
shape the whole thing.

1675
01:15:23,602 --> 01:15:25,688
We also had this concept
from pretty early on that,

1676
01:15:25,771 --> 01:15:27,732
"Hey, we have this great place,
Imagination Land,"

1677
01:15:27,815 --> 01:15:28,959
"we also have Dream Production,"

1678
01:15:28,983 --> 01:15:31,861
"we have all the bucket of cool places
we've been to."

1679
01:15:31,944 --> 01:15:36,449
"How can we use some, one,
or all of those things to get them back?"

1680
01:15:36,532 --> 01:15:39,012
For a while we've tried
bringing the clown out of Subconscious.

1681
01:15:39,952 --> 01:15:40,953
Oh, yeah.

1682
01:15:41,037 --> 01:15:42,079
And he was gonna

1683
01:15:42,163 --> 01:15:45,124
sit on a giant whoopee cushion
which was gonna propel them up.

1684
01:15:45,207 --> 01:15:48,544
We knew that we didn't wanna
repeat the same thing with the wagon,

1685
01:15:48,627 --> 01:15:52,048
'cause we'd just seen them
fly out of the dump.

1686
01:15:52,131 --> 01:15:53,883
So it had to be something else.

1687
01:15:54,508 --> 01:15:57,928
One of the things that, the biggest
laughs in the making of the film

1688
01:15:58,012 --> 01:16:00,222
was the boyfriend thing.

1689
01:16:00,306 --> 01:16:02,600
And so we thought,
"Let's try to use that again."

1690
01:16:02,683 --> 01:16:05,227
Which is a little bizarre, but you know...

1691
01:16:05,311 --> 01:16:06,413
I know. Well, and also that...

1692
01:16:06,437 --> 01:16:07,497
That's what you want.

1693
01:16:07,521 --> 01:16:11,025
The Cloud Town,
it seemed like it was there,

1694
01:16:11,108 --> 01:16:14,862
and that those puffy clouds could float,

1695
01:16:15,279 --> 01:16:18,074
I wonder if that could be a conveyance.

1696
01:16:18,157 --> 01:16:20,826
Oh, of course not, it can't...
Wait a second.

1697
01:16:20,910 --> 01:16:23,746
What if...

1698
01:16:23,829 --> 01:16:25,140
The boyfriends,
who are voiced by

1699
01:16:25,164 --> 01:16:27,291
one of our story artists, Tony Maki,

1700
01:16:27,374 --> 01:16:30,878
who just seemed like he had that
sort of overly dramatic kind of...

1701
01:16:30,961 --> 01:16:32,421
He has a handsome voice.

1702
01:16:32,505 --> 01:16:34,465
Yeah, he does.
And he's a handsome fellow.

1703
01:17:03,285 --> 01:17:05,621
This blew me away, the... Ha-ha.

1704
01:17:05,704 --> 01:17:07,248
Blew me away...

1705
01:17:07,331 --> 01:17:08,958
The balloon blowing those cards over.

1706
01:17:09,041 --> 01:17:10,417
That was the effects department.

1707
01:17:10,501 --> 01:17:14,839
And they used this simulation tool
which approximates

1708
01:17:14,922 --> 01:17:17,967
what would happen if you actually had
all these cards stacked up...

1709
01:17:18,050 --> 01:17:19,927
and generated.

1710
01:17:20,010 --> 01:17:21,887
So it's pretty neat-looking.

1711
01:17:46,829 --> 01:17:48,747
There goes Joy
and then the boyfriends.

1712
01:17:48,831 --> 01:17:53,419
We contemplated several times
because she says, "Time to prove it."

1713
01:17:53,502 --> 01:17:56,088
The boys say, "We would die for Riley."

1714
01:17:56,172 --> 01:17:59,175
Should we show them
actually falling down into the dump?

1715
01:17:59,258 --> 01:18:00,843
You know?

1716
01:18:00,926 --> 01:18:02,678
We decided not to go for gruesome.

1717
01:18:02,761 --> 01:18:04,489
But it's sort of implied
that they do, they...

1718
01:18:04,513 --> 01:18:06,575
It's implied
that they sacrificed themselves.

1719
01:18:06,599 --> 01:18:08,493
- Hey, they're imaginary, so...
- Yes.

1720
01:18:08,517 --> 01:18:11,145
And all of that is fun,

1721
01:18:11,228 --> 01:18:14,857
workshopping with a story crew,
coming together, brainstorming,

1722
01:18:14,940 --> 01:18:16,400
dog-piling on this problem.

1723
01:18:16,483 --> 01:18:18,485
"And then this happens,
and then this happens."

1724
01:18:18,569 --> 01:18:20,463
- Yeah, the story crew was...
- "And that would happen."

1725
01:18:20,487 --> 01:18:22,823
When you can find
these kind of ideas like this,

1726
01:18:22,907 --> 01:18:25,201
where we know basically
where we're trying to go,

1727
01:18:25,284 --> 01:18:31,123
but how, why, where, all that stuff,
is really fun for them, to involve them in.

1728
01:18:31,207 --> 01:18:33,417
- And they had some great ideas.
- Yeah.

1729
01:18:33,500 --> 01:18:36,629
This was another one
where we rewrote many times,

1730
01:18:36,712 --> 01:18:39,089
Disgust's speech to Anger,

1731
01:18:39,173 --> 01:18:42,551
trying to upset him
and provoke him into anger.

1732
01:18:42,635 --> 01:18:46,764
And I don't remember how many
different versions of that we did,

1733
01:18:46,847 --> 01:18:48,390
and tortured...

1734
01:18:48,474 --> 01:18:49,634
Mindy.

1735
01:18:49,683 --> 01:18:51,435
Poor Mindy was rerecording them.

1736
01:18:51,518 --> 01:18:54,396
- But I think it turned out really well.
- She's a trouper.

1737
01:19:01,320 --> 01:19:04,907
So then having held Sadness
back from the console,

1738
01:19:04,990 --> 01:19:06,742
Joy now urges her forward.

1739
01:19:06,825 --> 01:19:09,995
And this was John and Andrew
helping us quite a bit,

1740
01:19:10,079 --> 01:19:11,956
trying to make it as much of a surprise,

1741
01:19:12,039 --> 01:19:14,458
not only to the audience
but to these other characters.

1742
01:19:14,541 --> 01:19:17,544
So they assume Joy is gonna
step forward and save the day,

1743
01:19:17,628 --> 01:19:21,131
and instead Joy now has learned
that it's gonna be Sadness.

1744
01:19:22,675 --> 01:19:26,512
So she's able to step up
and remove that idea.

1745
01:19:27,054 --> 01:19:29,223
Something that I remember,
when we boarded this,

1746
01:19:29,306 --> 01:19:34,728
it was a little unclear as to when
exactly she is able to clear the console

1747
01:19:34,812 --> 01:19:36,480
and make it usable again.

1748
01:19:36,563 --> 01:19:40,901
And in Layout, this is one of those
you never quite know, as things...

1749
01:19:40,985 --> 01:19:43,153
You kind of figure things out.

1750
01:19:43,237 --> 01:19:47,116
We pushed the idea of Sadness
actually touching the console

1751
01:19:47,199 --> 01:19:51,036
until the moment when Joy actually...

1752
01:19:51,120 --> 01:19:52,847
- Once she replays the memories.
- Mmm-hmm.

1753
01:19:52,871 --> 01:19:55,416
So early on,
I think she had touched the console,

1754
01:19:55,499 --> 01:19:57,084
cooled it down, got the memory out,

1755
01:19:57,167 --> 01:19:59,837
but that sort of implied
that Riley was already feeling sad.

1756
01:20:00,504 --> 01:20:03,048
So we separated those concepts
and made that different.

1757
01:20:17,563 --> 01:20:21,608
This is the payoff that Joy has been
trying to prevent the whole film.

1758
01:20:21,692 --> 01:20:23,485
"Sadness, don't touch the memories."

1759
01:20:23,569 --> 01:20:25,654
"Don't touch the Core Memories,
stay away!"

1760
01:20:25,738 --> 01:20:28,407
And now she willingly
gives them over to her.

1761
01:20:28,490 --> 01:20:30,200
And it's sad for her.

1762
01:20:30,284 --> 01:20:33,746
I think she knows
she's doing the right thing on one level,

1763
01:20:33,829 --> 01:20:34,955
but it's also painful.

1764
01:20:35,039 --> 01:20:37,207
Just like watching your kids grow up.

1765
01:20:58,145 --> 01:21:00,689
The replay here of the memories,

1766
01:21:00,773 --> 01:21:05,861
we double-printed frames, so it, kind of...
An inferred slow motion.

1767
01:21:05,944 --> 01:21:08,822
We could have animated it
or rendered it in slowmo,

1768
01:21:08,947 --> 01:21:12,451
but I think this really
cements the idea that...

1769
01:21:12,534 --> 01:21:14,244
I don't know, this is the way I feel about

1770
01:21:14,328 --> 01:21:18,624
when you think about nostalgic
memories that are bittersweet.

1771
01:21:18,707 --> 01:21:21,543
And I love this last shot,
skating away from the camera

1772
01:21:21,627 --> 01:21:23,212
kind of represents this is Minnesota...

1773
01:21:23,295 --> 01:21:24,898
- It's going away.
- Going away.

1774
01:21:24,922 --> 01:21:27,674
This was kind of a gut instinct
that I thought I'd try,

1775
01:21:27,758 --> 01:21:31,053
is when Sadness
finally touches the console,

1776
01:21:31,136 --> 01:21:35,099
it has this warm, rich,
resonant tone to it.

1777
01:21:35,182 --> 01:21:36,892
I guess what I was going for...

1778
01:21:36,975 --> 01:21:39,603
One of the psychologists
we talked to, Dacher Keltner,

1779
01:21:39,686 --> 01:21:43,023
he pointed out the vagus nerve,
which is in your chest.

1780
01:21:43,107 --> 01:21:46,902
And it's that warm, rich feeling
when you really love someone

1781
01:21:46,985 --> 01:21:48,070
or something good happens,

1782
01:21:48,153 --> 01:21:50,739
you have this blooming feeling
from your chest.

1783
01:21:50,823 --> 01:21:54,326
And I think that's what
I was going for with that tone.

1784
01:21:54,410 --> 01:21:56,995
That when Sadness,
even though it's counterintuitive

1785
01:21:57,079 --> 01:21:59,581
'cause Sadness
doesn't really usually feel like that.

1786
01:21:59,665 --> 01:22:02,126
Finally, after all this time
of holding her back

1787
01:22:02,209 --> 01:22:03,877
we're finally gonna allow her forward.

1788
01:22:03,961 --> 01:22:08,632
And then that's the last sound
that we hear before it all drops out,

1789
01:22:08,715 --> 01:22:12,219
and we just have the silence of Riley
talking to her parents,

1790
01:22:12,302 --> 01:22:15,139
and admitting finally that she's sad.

1791
01:22:15,222 --> 01:22:19,351
Which is something Joy would
never wanna do, prior to this journey.

1792
01:22:19,435 --> 01:22:21,562
And it's ultimately
what brings them together.

1793
01:22:43,709 --> 01:22:45,103
There's a lot of orchestration

1794
01:22:45,127 --> 01:22:47,254
about memories
that we had been trying to find

1795
01:22:47,337 --> 01:22:50,799
ways to loop back in.

1796
01:22:50,883 --> 01:22:51,884
Mmm-hmm.

1797
01:22:51,967 --> 01:22:55,053
This blue memory,
I remember, from the very beginning

1798
01:22:55,137 --> 01:22:59,975
the story guys were like, "Well,
it went to the dump, you recover it."

1799
01:23:00,476 --> 01:23:02,036
- "Shouldn't you bring it back?"
- Mmm-hmm.

1800
01:23:02,060 --> 01:23:04,229
I was like, "Yeah."

1801
01:23:04,646 --> 01:23:07,483
We have so many memories to track.
Where is... What? Where...

1802
01:23:07,566 --> 01:23:10,819
But it now becomes
emotionally satisfying

1803
01:23:10,903 --> 01:23:15,032
that that was where
all of these problems began for Joy.

1804
01:23:15,949 --> 01:23:18,911
Now she's willing
to give it back to Sadness.

1805
01:23:18,994 --> 01:23:22,664
Yeah, I also felt like
the Core Memories were for Riley,

1806
01:23:22,748 --> 01:23:23,832
this one was for Sadness.

1807
01:23:23,916 --> 01:23:25,292
For Sadness.

1808
01:23:25,375 --> 01:23:27,377
It's like a
little offering for her.

1809
01:23:32,216 --> 01:23:37,012
I love that this whole ending reverses
the sort of usual loud action thing

1810
01:23:37,095 --> 01:23:39,348
that usually,
traditionally happens in movies.

1811
01:23:39,431 --> 01:23:42,518
You build, build, build to this big climax,

1812
01:23:42,601 --> 01:23:44,394
and here we've pulled back,

1813
01:23:44,478 --> 01:23:49,274
and it's just the quietness
and the sadness of Riley

1814
01:23:49,358 --> 01:23:52,194
that's able to complete the whole thing.

1815
01:23:52,277 --> 01:23:54,339
And also,
if you notice, this is a bookend,

1816
01:23:54,363 --> 01:23:57,032
wherein we began the movie with Joy,
and then Sadness comes in,

1817
01:23:58,367 --> 01:24:00,011
the fly in the ointment, as Pete had said.

1818
01:24:00,035 --> 01:24:03,539
And then here, at the resolve,
we have Joy and Sadness,

1819
01:24:03,622 --> 01:24:06,833
but they are actually
embracing each other.

1820
01:24:06,917 --> 01:24:07,960
Yeah.

1821
01:24:08,544 --> 01:24:12,464
We had a lot of different ideas for
different islands that could be out there.

1822
01:24:12,548 --> 01:24:15,050
Somehow it seemed funnier
to just hear their names

1823
01:24:15,133 --> 01:24:18,011
than to go for close-ups or anything.

1824
01:24:19,012 --> 01:24:21,348
The new console
was meant to symbolize

1825
01:24:21,431 --> 01:24:23,850
the complexity of adult emotions.

1826
01:24:23,934 --> 01:24:26,520
I don't think this is really true
but our experience of it

1827
01:24:26,603 --> 01:24:29,106
is that children have very pure,
simple emotions.

1828
01:24:29,731 --> 01:24:31,024
Probably very loud ones too.

1829
01:24:31,108 --> 01:24:34,903
And as adults they become
much more complex and nuanced.

1830
01:24:34,987 --> 01:24:37,281
So the console
was symbolizing all of that.

1831
01:24:37,364 --> 01:24:38,740
Yes, and confusing.

1832
01:24:38,824 --> 01:24:40,384
- Look at those buttons.
- Yeah.

1833
01:24:57,968 --> 01:25:02,097
Of course, after the dinner scene played
so well in some of our early screenings,

1834
01:25:02,180 --> 01:25:05,934
here at work there was a desire
for callbacks from Mom and Dad.

1835
01:25:06,018 --> 01:25:07,811
So we have the face painting.

1836
01:25:08,770 --> 01:25:11,273
We can sense that things
are gonna work out all right.

1837
01:25:12,482 --> 01:25:16,028
Mom's not gonna go off with
the Brazilian helicopter pilot after all.

1838
01:25:18,822 --> 01:25:21,283
And then I don't remember
who came up with the boy thing.

1839
01:25:21,992 --> 01:25:23,493
Was it Josh, was it you?

1840
01:25:23,577 --> 01:25:25,162
Oh, probably was Josh.

1841
01:25:25,245 --> 01:25:26,723
- I don't remember.
- Anyway, that...

1842
01:25:26,747 --> 01:25:30,584
After this sort of melancholy, sweet,
wonderful, sad moment,

1843
01:25:30,667 --> 01:25:33,629
this is a way to kind of bring
some energy back in

1844
01:25:33,712 --> 01:25:36,006
and leave on an uptick.

1845
01:25:36,423 --> 01:25:38,800
And great acting on Riley.

1846
01:25:38,884 --> 01:25:40,302
- Yeah.
- I love it.

1847
01:25:40,385 --> 01:25:42,679
And then
we also really wanted to show,

1848
01:25:42,763 --> 01:25:47,225
even though the primary relationship in
the film was between Joy and Sadness,

1849
01:25:47,309 --> 01:25:49,311
we wanted to demonstrate
to the audience

1850
01:25:49,394 --> 01:25:53,357
that all of the emotions are now
involved in a very sort of team-like way.

1851
01:25:53,440 --> 01:25:56,652
So from one to the other,
we switch off back and forth

1852
01:25:56,735 --> 01:26:00,280
in this one shot here,
watching Riley play hockey.

1853
01:26:00,364 --> 01:26:03,158
And then this last shot, we go
from a very close-up here on Riley

1854
01:26:03,241 --> 01:26:05,035
all the way to a wide shot.

1855
01:26:05,118 --> 01:26:08,497
And I love that
even after this whole journey,

1856
01:26:08,580 --> 01:26:11,625
Joy, after everything she learned,
she ends the film

1857
01:26:11,708 --> 01:26:13,686
with essentially the same thing
she said at the beginning.

1858
01:26:13,710 --> 01:26:15,587
Which, "What could happen?"

1859
01:26:15,671 --> 01:26:18,173
She's an eternally optimistic character.

1860
01:26:20,384 --> 01:26:22,344
Kind of clueless, but that's the way...

1861
01:26:22,427 --> 01:26:23,571
That's the way we all are.

1862
01:26:23,595 --> 01:26:24,697
That's the way Joy is.

1863
01:26:24,721 --> 01:26:26,366
We move forward
hoping for the best.

1864
01:26:29,810 --> 01:26:31,603
The credits here, we added

1865
01:26:31,728 --> 01:26:35,107
to address a concern
that a lot of folks had,

1866
01:26:35,190 --> 01:26:37,526
that the movie was too sad.

1867
01:26:37,609 --> 01:26:39,528
Which not everybody agreed with,

1868
01:26:39,611 --> 01:26:44,408
but I can't disagree that this whole
ending really brings a lot of humor

1869
01:26:44,491 --> 01:26:45,951
and people love it.

1870
01:26:46,034 --> 01:26:49,871
So it was a fun chance to play
with one of these great ideas

1871
01:26:49,955 --> 01:26:51,206
that the film offered up.

1872
01:26:51,289 --> 01:26:53,375
Which is, "What's going on
inside people's heads?"

1873
01:26:53,458 --> 01:26:55,419
So this is our chance
to have some fun with that.

1874
01:26:55,502 --> 01:26:57,582
- And meet random people.
- Yes, exactly.

1875
01:26:57,629 --> 01:26:59,548
And actually, very early in the process

1876
01:26:59,631 --> 01:27:04,052
we had experimented
going inside a baby's head.

1877
01:27:04,136 --> 01:27:06,722
- Yes.
- Inside a dog's head.

1878
01:27:06,805 --> 01:27:09,141
- And a goldfish's head.
- Goldfish's, yeah.

1879
01:27:09,224 --> 01:27:12,352
And we can't fit it in!
We didn't know...

1880
01:27:12,436 --> 01:27:14,229
It was so funny.

1881
01:27:14,312 --> 01:27:15,856
How about a credit sequence?

1882
01:27:15,939 --> 01:27:18,066
It's like, "Oh, I don't know. Wait..."

1883
01:27:18,984 --> 01:27:20,861
- "We can use it there."
- Yeah.

1884
01:27:21,862 --> 01:27:24,698
In the end, I'm proud of this movie
and the statement that it makes.

1885
01:27:24,823 --> 01:27:28,410
That in a world where
we try to generally avoid sadness,

1886
01:27:28,493 --> 01:27:31,246
we see sadness as a bad thing,
we even medicate it,

1887
01:27:31,329 --> 01:27:35,083
people will take drugs
to avoid feeling sad,

1888
01:27:35,167 --> 01:27:38,670
this movie asserts
the necessity of sadness

1889
01:27:38,754 --> 01:27:41,089
and the importance
that it plays in our lives,

1890
01:27:41,173 --> 01:27:42,466
and the richness that it brings.

1891
01:27:42,549 --> 01:27:44,676
And I think as an adult, especially,

1892
01:27:44,760 --> 01:27:47,929
you tend to experience
all these different emotions

1893
01:27:48,013 --> 01:27:50,015
that you initially tried to avoid.

1894
01:27:50,098 --> 01:27:52,684
Because they add a richness to your life

1895
01:27:52,768 --> 01:27:56,146
and a real warmth
and complexity to things.

1896
01:27:57,022 --> 01:27:59,608
Ah! I'm so happy
to have been on this movie.

1897
01:27:59,691 --> 01:28:02,444
Because I learned so much
about emotions.

1898
01:28:02,527 --> 01:28:05,947
But not only that...
This is one of the most complex

1899
01:28:06,031 --> 01:28:07,532
and most difficult movies

1900
01:28:07,616 --> 01:28:08,784
I have ever worked on.

1901
01:28:08,867 --> 01:28:09,993
Yeah, me too.

1902
01:28:10,076 --> 01:28:13,116
I don't think, Ronnie, I don't think we
would have been able to do this movie

1903
01:28:13,205 --> 01:28:14,456
even like five years prior.

1904
01:28:14,539 --> 01:28:15,874
Oh, goodness me, no.

1905
01:28:15,957 --> 01:28:20,045
It just took every ounce
of our training and...

1906
01:28:20,128 --> 01:28:21,814
- Experience.
- Yeah.

1907
01:28:21,838 --> 01:28:23,465
- Patience.
- Yes.

1908
01:28:24,883 --> 01:28:26,927
Climbing tepuis is much easier.

1909
01:28:27,052 --> 01:28:28,845
That's true.

1910
01:28:28,929 --> 01:28:32,224
That's true, yeah. We got to explore
the world out there on <i>Up,</i>

1911
01:28:32,307 --> 01:28:36,394
and then we went inside on this one
and it was quite a journey.

1912
01:28:36,520 --> 01:28:37,562
It was, yes.

1913
01:28:37,646 --> 01:28:42,984
But I'm so happy and so grateful
to be part of it.

1914
01:28:43,068 --> 01:28:44,110
Me too.

1915
01:28:44,194 --> 01:28:47,906
I think working with everybody,
I mean, it's been a fantastic journey.

1916
01:28:47,989 --> 01:28:51,660
And everyone on the film, from the story
crew, all the way down to rendering,

1917
01:28:51,743 --> 01:28:53,495
was wonderful.

1918
01:28:53,578 --> 01:28:57,749
I think the film fundamentally
changed me in a lot of ways.

1919
01:28:59,000 --> 01:29:02,254
The experience of the film itself
is of course really...

1920
01:29:02,337 --> 01:29:04,381
It always ends up
having an effect on you.

1921
01:29:04,464 --> 01:29:07,133
But just doing the research
and thinking day after day

1922
01:29:07,217 --> 01:29:10,095
about our emotions
and what's driving us,

1923
01:29:10,178 --> 01:29:12,639
and what's going on under the hood,

1924
01:29:12,722 --> 01:29:15,600
I think it really
made me think more deeply

1925
01:29:15,684 --> 01:29:19,479
about the way I interact with people
and what's going on in their heads.

1926
01:29:19,563 --> 01:29:22,274
And, like, a lot of times you think,
"Man, this guy's such a jerk."

1927
01:29:22,357 --> 01:29:24,317
Or so mean or whatever.

1928
01:29:24,401 --> 01:29:27,362
And likely he's not.
They're not trying to do that.

1929
01:29:27,445 --> 01:29:30,323
It's their emotions
and this whole other system

1930
01:29:30,407 --> 01:29:33,785
that is unconsciously,
below their even conscious control,

1931
01:29:33,869 --> 01:29:35,704
it's kind of driving them through life.

1932
01:29:35,787 --> 01:29:38,307
And they're just doing the best they can
based on what they have.

1933
01:29:38,331 --> 01:29:39,791
And in the long run,

1934
01:29:39,875 --> 01:29:42,752
I think the thing that really
affected me was this idea

1935
01:29:42,836 --> 01:29:46,172
that emotions
are the key to relationships.

1936
01:29:46,256 --> 01:29:49,509
That those things
that we sometimes try to avoid,

1937
01:29:49,593 --> 01:29:51,887
anger, fear, disgust, whatever,

1938
01:29:51,970 --> 01:29:55,390
are ultimately the very thing
that make for the deepest relationships

1939
01:29:55,473 --> 01:29:56,474
in our lives.

1940
01:29:56,558 --> 01:30:01,479
And I feel like that's the basic thesis
of the film and the statement of the film.

1941
01:30:01,563 --> 01:30:03,982
And it's pretty powerful.

1942
01:30:04,983 --> 01:30:06,623
I'm so glad you thought of it.

1943
01:30:06,651 --> 01:30:11,114
Well. It wasn't me.
It was a big crew, so it was...

1944
01:30:12,490 --> 01:30:16,494
Anyway, we're sort of rambling here,
so I think we're probably done.