1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 3 00:01:59,902 --> 00:02:02,600 - On December 1st, 2002 4 00:02:02,644 --> 00:02:05,429 Dilawar, a young Afghan taxi driver 5 00:02:05,473 --> 00:02:08,084 took three passengers for a ride. 6 00:02:13,176 --> 00:02:14,395 He never returned home. 7 00:02:44,251 --> 00:02:46,601 - When the sun started to go down, 8 00:02:46,644 --> 00:02:48,733 the sand started blowing, so it was 9 00:02:48,777 --> 00:02:51,562 a like a big dust bowl and I'm thinking, 10 00:02:51,606 --> 00:02:54,435 boy is it gonna be like this every night? 11 00:02:54,478 --> 00:02:55,697 - I remember walking in there for the 12 00:02:55,740 --> 00:02:58,221 first time and the smell, the smell's 13 00:02:58,265 --> 00:03:00,310 the first thing that hit you. 14 00:03:00,354 --> 00:03:02,486 I'm a man from DC, if you've ever been 15 00:03:02,530 --> 00:03:05,054 to the National Zoo when you walk 16 00:03:05,097 --> 00:03:07,665 into the elephant house there, 17 00:03:07,709 --> 00:03:09,450 that's the best way to describe it. 18 00:03:10,712 --> 00:03:12,017 There's a few of us that lived in 19 00:03:12,061 --> 00:03:14,237 the prison and I was one of them. 20 00:03:14,281 --> 00:03:16,370 They built it up to be a big scary place 21 00:03:16,413 --> 00:03:19,111 to the prisoners. 22 00:03:31,254 --> 00:03:33,343 - After then invasion of Afghanistan, 23 00:03:33,387 --> 00:03:37,304 US forces occupied Bagram, an old Soviet air base 24 00:03:37,347 --> 00:03:39,175 as a place to collect and interrogate 25 00:03:39,219 --> 00:03:41,351 thousands of detainees, captured 26 00:03:41,395 --> 00:03:44,180 throughout Afghanistan and Pakistan. 27 00:03:44,224 --> 00:03:47,096 - These were suspected Taliban. 28 00:03:47,139 --> 00:03:50,273 They were being caught by Special Forces 29 00:03:50,317 --> 00:03:53,102 throughout the countryside, brought to Bagram 30 00:03:53,145 --> 00:03:55,626 and be held, interrogated to determine 31 00:03:55,670 --> 00:03:58,107 if they were a high value prisoner. 32 00:03:59,456 --> 00:04:03,068 - These were not nice people at all. 33 00:04:03,112 --> 00:04:04,983 They were very evil people who 34 00:04:05,027 --> 00:04:07,856 definitely had violent intentions. 35 00:04:09,031 --> 00:04:11,338 - On December 5, 2002, 36 00:04:11,381 --> 00:04:13,818 Dilawar, the taxi driver, was brought 37 00:04:13,862 --> 00:04:17,257 to Bagram, he was designated a PUC, 38 00:04:17,300 --> 00:04:20,521 person under control, number 421. 39 00:04:20,564 --> 00:04:23,132 - He was something to do with a trigger man 40 00:04:23,175 --> 00:04:28,137 for a rocket attack and that's about all I know. 41 00:04:29,573 --> 00:04:33,098 - Five days after his arrival, he was dead. 42 00:04:40,497 --> 00:04:44,762 - I would say this was around 'bout 05:00 in the morning 43 00:04:45,894 --> 00:04:48,810 and as I walked by, Dilawar, I think 44 00:04:48,853 --> 00:04:50,638 that's his name, Dilawar, I walked by 45 00:04:50,681 --> 00:04:52,640 Dilawar's cell and I noticed he was 46 00:04:52,683 --> 00:04:55,207 just kinda hanging there with his head down 47 00:04:55,251 --> 00:04:58,559 but he was being too still to be just 48 00:04:58,602 --> 00:05:01,388 hanging there and sleeping. 49 00:05:01,431 --> 00:05:02,954 - Sergeant Curtis opened up the door 50 00:05:02,998 --> 00:05:06,088 and we went in and he was unresponsive 51 00:05:06,131 --> 00:05:07,872 and we started CPR. 52 00:05:09,091 --> 00:05:11,354 I was downstairs in general population 53 00:05:11,398 --> 00:05:13,095 then I heard a call come in asking 54 00:05:13,138 --> 00:05:16,141 for Cammack to come upstairs, he was a medic 55 00:05:16,185 --> 00:05:18,883 and we carried him downstairs on the stretcher 56 00:05:18,927 --> 00:05:20,755 and Cammack was still on top of him 57 00:05:20,798 --> 00:05:21,843 while we were carrying him down, 58 00:05:21,886 --> 00:05:23,888 still trying to get him back going 59 00:05:23,932 --> 00:05:25,890 all the way down the stairs, got him 60 00:05:25,934 --> 00:05:28,371 to the front door and they kept working on him 61 00:05:28,415 --> 00:05:29,677 and kept working on him until the doctor 62 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:31,331 got there and pronounced him dead. 63 00:05:32,593 --> 00:05:34,246 - I don't know whether there 64 00:05:34,290 --> 00:05:37,337 was an injury that was aggravated by something 65 00:05:37,380 --> 00:05:39,295 or whether he was just sick coming in. 66 00:05:40,601 --> 00:05:44,169 - They're very frail people and I was surprised 67 00:05:44,213 --> 00:05:46,084 that it had taken that long for one 68 00:05:46,128 --> 00:05:48,478 of em to die in our custody. 69 00:05:48,522 --> 00:05:51,002 - It was a sense of, definitely a sense of concern 70 00:05:51,046 --> 00:05:53,309 because he was the second one. 71 00:05:53,353 --> 00:05:55,703 - Just a week before Dilawar's death, 72 00:05:55,746 --> 00:05:58,314 another detainee at Bagram had died. 73 00:05:58,358 --> 00:06:00,011 - You know, you wonder, is it something 74 00:06:00,055 --> 00:06:02,710 we did or did somebody kill him or something 75 00:06:02,753 --> 00:06:04,494 but I just didn't know. 76 00:06:04,538 --> 00:06:06,409 - According to the medical examiner, 77 00:06:06,453 --> 00:06:09,325 the first detainee to die, Habibullah, 78 00:06:09,369 --> 00:06:11,588 had a pre-existing pulmonary condition 79 00:06:11,632 --> 00:06:13,764 but it was the beatings he sustained 80 00:06:13,808 --> 00:06:16,593 in Bagram that led to the cause of his death 81 00:06:16,637 --> 00:06:20,510 a blood clot that traveled to his lungs. 82 00:06:20,554 --> 00:06:22,425 - When the second one died a week later 83 00:06:22,469 --> 00:06:23,687 that's when it was like oh crap, 84 00:06:23,731 --> 00:06:25,515 something was gonna happen now, 85 00:06:25,559 --> 00:06:27,648 yes, two prisoners dying within a week 86 00:06:27,691 --> 00:06:29,650 of each other, that's bad. 87 00:06:30,825 --> 00:06:32,435 - A preliminary investigation 88 00:06:32,479 --> 00:06:35,569 into Dilawar's death revealed deep bruises 89 00:06:35,612 --> 00:06:38,789 all over his body, but did not conclude 90 00:06:38,833 --> 00:06:41,966 that his treatment at Bagram was to blame. 91 00:06:42,010 --> 00:06:44,665 - The next day, they said just draw out 92 00:06:44,708 --> 00:06:47,537 how he was shackled up here and I made 93 00:06:47,581 --> 00:06:49,452 that little crude drawing. 94 00:06:50,932 --> 00:06:53,543 The ceiling of these isolation rooms 95 00:06:53,587 --> 00:06:56,372 was just a simple metal grate and it was 96 00:06:56,416 --> 00:06:58,853 thick enough you could put handcuffs 97 00:06:58,896 --> 00:07:01,377 through the wires of that and you just 98 00:07:01,421 --> 00:07:03,640 kind of chain em up like that, 99 00:07:03,684 --> 00:07:05,860 out to the sides like this. 100 00:07:08,123 --> 00:07:10,430 - Forced standing for long periods 101 00:07:10,473 --> 00:07:12,475 had inflamed tissue damage from blows 102 00:07:12,519 --> 00:07:16,044 to Dilawar's legs, but the initial Bagram 103 00:07:16,087 --> 00:07:17,524 press release failed to mention 104 00:07:17,567 --> 00:07:19,830 overhead shackling or beatings. 105 00:07:19,874 --> 00:07:21,397 It declared that both detainees 106 00:07:21,441 --> 00:07:23,704 had died of natural causes. 107 00:07:30,580 --> 00:07:33,496 - My opinion is that the military 108 00:07:33,540 --> 00:07:36,891 wanted to get this over and get this 109 00:07:36,934 --> 00:07:39,633 done quickly, before it really got noticed. 110 00:07:41,722 --> 00:07:43,811 - Soon after Dilawar's death, 111 00:07:43,854 --> 00:07:45,682 the officer in charge of interrogation 112 00:07:45,726 --> 00:07:48,511 at Bagram, Captain Carolyn Wood 113 00:07:48,555 --> 00:07:50,687 was awarded the Bronze Star for Valor. 114 00:07:52,428 --> 00:07:54,517 Following the Iraq invasion, Wood 115 00:07:54,561 --> 00:07:56,519 and her intelligence unit were given 116 00:07:56,563 --> 00:08:00,218 a new assignment, Abu Ghraib. 117 00:08:14,668 --> 00:08:16,191 - The only thing I can really remember 118 00:08:16,234 --> 00:08:19,063 about Abu Ghraib was the heat, it was like 119 00:08:19,107 --> 00:08:22,502 a 148 degrees or so there and it was all concrete. 120 00:08:23,764 --> 00:08:26,070 You know, Abu Ghraib also had that infamous 121 00:08:26,114 --> 00:08:28,899 torture chambers and stuff left from Saddam's era. 122 00:08:30,118 --> 00:08:32,729 I remember walking through those and seeing 123 00:08:32,773 --> 00:08:35,993 fingernail marks on the walls and blood stains 124 00:08:36,037 --> 00:08:37,952 and guillotines and stuff like that 125 00:08:37,995 --> 00:08:40,258 it was a pretty surreal feeling. 126 00:08:42,043 --> 00:08:45,220 We went to Abu Ghraib, I believe in July, 127 00:08:45,263 --> 00:08:49,180 July August of 2003 to start that prison. 128 00:08:52,444 --> 00:08:53,968 - You put people in a crazy situation 129 00:08:54,011 --> 00:08:55,317 and people do crazy things 130 00:08:57,449 --> 00:08:59,495 and Abu was getting mortared every night. 131 00:08:59,539 --> 00:09:02,716 These 120mm mortars killing prisoners. 132 00:09:02,759 --> 00:09:04,326 The first time that happened, they should 133 00:09:04,369 --> 00:09:06,633 have evacuated those prisoners to somewhere else. 134 00:09:06,676 --> 00:09:09,113 Because the prisoners weren't safe. 135 00:09:10,898 --> 00:09:13,248 - People were being told to rough up Iraqis 136 00:09:13,291 --> 00:09:15,772 that wouldn't cooperate, we were also told 137 00:09:15,816 --> 00:09:19,210 they're nothing but dogs, then all of a sudden 138 00:09:19,254 --> 00:09:20,951 you start looking at these people 139 00:09:20,995 --> 00:09:22,866 as less than human and you start 140 00:09:22,910 --> 00:09:24,999 doing things to em you would never dream of 141 00:09:25,042 --> 00:09:27,349 and that's where it got scary. 142 00:09:35,575 --> 00:09:36,750 - It was only the night shift, 143 00:09:36,793 --> 00:09:37,881 there's always a few bad apples. 144 00:09:37,925 --> 00:09:40,580 - It's been a body blow for all of us. 145 00:09:40,623 --> 00:09:43,408 - This is clearly an isolated incident. 146 00:09:43,452 --> 00:09:45,628 - The conduct of a very very small 147 00:09:45,672 --> 00:09:48,631 number of our leaders and soldiers. 148 00:09:50,111 --> 00:09:51,547 - In the wake of media attention 149 00:09:51,591 --> 00:09:53,854 surrounding Abu Ghraib, the military 150 00:09:53,897 --> 00:09:56,160 began a series of investigations. 151 00:09:56,204 --> 00:09:58,119 - The people who engaged in abuses 152 00:09:58,162 --> 00:10:00,687 will be brought to justice, the world 153 00:10:00,730 --> 00:10:04,299 will see how a free system, a democratic system 154 00:10:04,342 --> 00:10:08,999 functions and operates transparently with no cover ups. 155 00:10:10,087 --> 00:10:11,262 - The Secretary and others have said 156 00:10:11,306 --> 00:10:12,481 well, you know, we've conducted 157 00:10:12,524 --> 00:10:16,006 12 investigations, each and all of which 158 00:10:16,050 --> 00:10:18,618 were geared to looking downward, 159 00:10:18,661 --> 00:10:21,142 Down toward Lynndie England and Graner 160 00:10:21,185 --> 00:10:22,273 and not looking up. 161 00:10:26,190 --> 00:10:27,539 - The soldiers in the photos 162 00:10:27,583 --> 00:10:31,282 are Military Police, or MPS, whose job 163 00:10:31,326 --> 00:10:33,676 it was to guard and protect the prisoners. 164 00:10:35,025 --> 00:10:36,853 In their statements, the MPs claimed 165 00:10:36,897 --> 00:10:38,855 that Military Intelligence or MI 166 00:10:38,899 --> 00:10:41,423 ordered them to weaken, humiliate 167 00:10:41,466 --> 00:10:45,340 and break the prisoners for interrogation purposes. 168 00:10:45,383 --> 00:10:47,255 - Obviously what they were doing 169 00:10:47,298 --> 00:10:49,170 in those pictures was not sanctioned 170 00:10:49,213 --> 00:10:51,215 by the interrogation rules of engagement 171 00:10:51,259 --> 00:10:52,956 and they weren't interrogators, 172 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,611 so yes, I did think that they were bad apples. 173 00:10:55,655 --> 00:10:57,744 However, I also think that they were 174 00:10:57,787 --> 00:10:59,571 taking cues from Intel. 175 00:11:00,747 --> 00:11:02,270 - Just reading reports that was happening 176 00:11:02,313 --> 00:11:04,751 in Afghanistan, I mean humiliation 177 00:11:04,794 --> 00:11:07,623 trying to break people came from somewhere. 178 00:11:07,667 --> 00:11:10,191 MPs didn't think of it, MPs were not 179 00:11:10,234 --> 00:11:12,410 ever trained in such things. 180 00:11:12,454 --> 00:11:14,630 We should have never been breaking anybody. 181 00:11:16,501 --> 00:11:17,981 - I can tell you we set the same policy 182 00:11:18,025 --> 00:11:21,637 at Abu we set at Bagram, same exact rules. 183 00:11:23,552 --> 00:11:24,684 Same thing was going on. 184 00:11:28,209 --> 00:11:29,689 They wonder why it happened. 185 00:11:33,823 --> 00:11:35,172 - In her sworn testimony 186 00:11:35,216 --> 00:11:37,566 about Abu Ghraib, Captain Wood said 187 00:11:37,609 --> 00:11:40,525 she felt pressured to produce intelligence 188 00:11:40,569 --> 00:11:42,745 so she brought unauthorized techniques 189 00:11:42,789 --> 00:11:46,357 dogs, nudity, sleep depravation and stress positions 190 00:11:46,401 --> 00:11:48,577 to Abu Ghraib from Afghanistan. 191 00:11:49,665 --> 00:11:52,015 Wood maintained that the Bagram model 192 00:11:52,059 --> 00:11:54,670 had tacit approval from superiors 193 00:11:54,714 --> 00:11:56,367 but US Central Command had never 194 00:11:56,411 --> 00:11:58,892 responded to her requests for authorization 195 00:12:00,023 --> 00:12:03,026 so the mystery remained, was Abu Ghraib 196 00:12:03,070 --> 00:12:06,160 the work of a few bad apples or evidence 197 00:12:06,203 --> 00:12:10,077 of a new worldwide system on detention and interrogation? 198 00:12:11,774 --> 00:12:13,428 - I'm pretty sure that interrogators 199 00:12:13,471 --> 00:12:16,126 were telling the guards, strip this guy naked 200 00:12:16,170 --> 00:12:17,824 chain him up to the bed in an uncomfortable 201 00:12:17,867 --> 00:12:20,348 position do whatever you can and then 202 00:12:20,391 --> 00:12:22,698 they just decided to take it one step further 203 00:12:22,742 --> 00:12:25,048 and have some fun with, and take pictures. 204 00:13:13,488 --> 00:13:15,533 - You've always got people in the military 205 00:13:15,577 --> 00:13:18,710 who are just this side of the Marquis de Sade 206 00:13:18,754 --> 00:13:20,800 and one of the reasons you want rules 207 00:13:20,843 --> 00:13:24,804 and this code of conduct to help you lead 208 00:13:24,847 --> 00:13:27,807 mud Marines and mud grunts, Infantry 209 00:13:27,850 --> 00:13:30,810 is so that you can use those tools 210 00:13:30,853 --> 00:13:34,639 to restrict this tendency in your soldiers. 211 00:13:36,206 --> 00:13:37,599 When you have your friends dying 212 00:13:37,642 --> 00:13:40,515 on your left and right, you can sometimes go 213 00:13:40,558 --> 00:13:44,040 beyond the pail, so a Lieutenant, a Captain 214 00:13:44,084 --> 00:13:45,737 down where the rubber meets the road 215 00:13:45,781 --> 00:13:47,914 needs these tools and he needs 216 00:13:47,957 --> 00:13:50,351 to be able to punish people who cross the line. 217 00:13:58,489 --> 00:14:00,143 When the Secretary walked through 218 00:14:00,187 --> 00:14:03,016 my door into my office about the time 219 00:14:03,059 --> 00:14:05,148 the photos of Abu Ghraib were getting ready 220 00:14:05,192 --> 00:14:07,107 to come out and we had rumor they were 221 00:14:07,150 --> 00:14:10,240 coming out, he said to me I need to know 222 00:14:10,284 --> 00:14:12,503 what happened and why, and so then 223 00:14:12,547 --> 00:14:14,854 I began to build both an open source 224 00:14:14,897 --> 00:14:16,812 and an inside the government, classified 225 00:14:16,856 --> 00:14:19,902 and unclassified document file and I began 226 00:14:19,946 --> 00:14:21,730 to see legal arguments as to why 227 00:14:21,773 --> 00:14:23,340 the President could pretty much do anything 228 00:14:23,384 --> 00:14:25,647 he wanted to in the name of security 229 00:14:25,690 --> 00:14:27,692 and the Secretary of Defense and others 230 00:14:27,736 --> 00:14:30,217 beneath him were actually looking for 231 00:14:30,260 --> 00:14:33,916 the twin pressures that they put on people 232 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:35,613 that is to say the pressure to produce 233 00:14:35,657 --> 00:14:37,572 intelligence and the fact that 234 00:14:37,615 --> 00:14:39,791 they were saying the gloves are off 235 00:14:39,835 --> 00:14:41,924 created the environment in the field 236 00:14:41,968 --> 00:14:43,578 that we later saw reflected in 237 00:14:43,621 --> 00:14:45,275 the photographs from Abu Ghraib 238 00:14:45,319 --> 00:14:49,627 and in my few, far more serious fashion 239 00:14:49,671 --> 00:14:53,631 than the photographs we saw, 98 deaths 240 00:14:53,675 --> 00:14:56,983 of people in detention, which I understand now 241 00:14:57,026 --> 00:14:59,202 from my Army colleagues is up to some 242 00:14:59,246 --> 00:15:02,771 25 of which have been declared officially 243 00:15:02,814 --> 00:15:04,381 by the Army as homicides. 244 00:15:06,079 --> 00:15:07,602 People say well these photographs 245 00:15:07,645 --> 00:15:09,517 from Abu Ghraib, they weren't real torture 246 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:11,649 I look back at those people and I say 247 00:15:11,693 --> 00:15:14,783 murder's torture, murder's the ultimate torture. 248 00:15:16,263 --> 00:15:19,831 In the case of Dilawar, he was subjected to 249 00:15:19,875 --> 00:15:22,138 certainly cruel and unusual punishment 250 00:15:22,182 --> 00:15:23,835 and ultimately, he was subjected 251 00:15:23,879 --> 00:15:25,837 to torture because he died. 252 00:15:34,281 --> 00:15:36,326 - It's not our intent for people 253 00:15:36,370 --> 00:15:37,980 to die, especially when we're seeking 254 00:15:38,024 --> 00:15:40,417 to get information from them. 255 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:52,429 - Did the treatment they received 256 00:15:52,473 --> 00:15:56,825 in those rooms cause the death of these two men? 257 00:15:56,868 --> 00:15:57,957 - First, we're not chaining 258 00:15:58,000 --> 00:15:59,262 people to the ceiling, I think you asked 259 00:15:59,306 --> 00:16:00,524 me that question before. 260 00:16:00,568 --> 00:16:01,961 - First, we're not chaining 261 00:16:02,004 --> 00:16:04,354 people to the ceiling, that's what he says. 262 00:16:05,660 --> 00:16:07,488 - Carlotta Gall is a New York Times 263 00:16:07,531 --> 00:16:08,706 journalist based in Kabul. 264 00:16:09,925 --> 00:16:12,188 Unsatisfied with the military's explanation 265 00:16:12,232 --> 00:16:15,800 of the two deaths at Bagram, she set out to investigate. 266 00:16:23,504 --> 00:16:25,419 - It took a long time to find the family 267 00:16:25,462 --> 00:16:27,551 because the military didn't tell us 268 00:16:27,595 --> 00:16:29,945 who they were and we started calling around 269 00:16:29,989 --> 00:16:34,297 Governors, they're very simple farming family 270 00:16:34,341 --> 00:16:35,907 they don't speak English, but they 271 00:16:35,951 --> 00:16:38,867 showed me a paper that was given to them 272 00:16:38,910 --> 00:16:42,001 with the body and that's when I opened it up 273 00:16:42,044 --> 00:16:43,654 and read it and it was in English 274 00:16:43,698 --> 00:16:45,091 and it was a death certificate from 275 00:16:45,134 --> 00:16:48,659 the American Military and it was signed by 276 00:16:48,703 --> 00:16:51,793 a US Major who was the pathologist 277 00:16:51,836 --> 00:16:53,577 and there were four boxes and she'd ticked 278 00:16:53,621 --> 00:16:55,014 the box for homicide. 279 00:16:57,103 --> 00:17:00,062 I said my god they've killed him and we then 280 00:17:00,106 --> 00:17:02,064 had to tell the family do you know 281 00:17:02,108 --> 00:17:04,327 what's written here and they said no 282 00:17:04,371 --> 00:17:05,981 it's in English we don't understand 283 00:17:06,025 --> 00:17:08,070 and I think maybe the Red Cross 284 00:17:08,114 --> 00:17:10,551 who helped return the body had explained 285 00:17:10,594 --> 00:17:13,684 but they hadn't taken it in and then 286 00:17:13,728 --> 00:17:16,861 the pathologist had said it was this blunt 287 00:17:16,905 --> 00:17:18,776 force trauma to the legs. 288 00:17:19,690 --> 00:17:21,083 In other words, did they receive 289 00:17:21,127 --> 00:17:25,348 any trauma, any blunt injury trauma as we call it? 290 00:17:26,741 --> 00:17:28,482 - Presently I have no indiction of that 291 00:17:28,525 --> 00:17:32,094 but we will be looking as this investigation 292 00:17:32,138 --> 00:17:34,444 continues to go down its due course. 293 00:17:34,488 --> 00:17:37,447 - Presently have no indication of that 294 00:17:37,491 --> 00:17:40,189 you know, there's been a death certificate 295 00:17:40,233 --> 00:17:42,670 signed by his people and he says 296 00:17:43,801 --> 00:17:45,281 presently I have no indication of any 297 00:17:45,325 --> 00:17:46,630 blunt force trauma and it's written 298 00:17:46,674 --> 00:17:49,546 on the death certificate, which I've seen. 299 00:17:49,590 --> 00:17:51,070 - The story probably would have gone away 300 00:17:51,113 --> 00:17:53,637 had it not been for my colleague, Carlotta Gall 301 00:17:53,681 --> 00:17:56,162 who tracked down Dilawar's family 302 00:17:56,205 --> 00:17:59,861 and found the knife in the back clue 303 00:17:59,904 --> 00:18:02,907 that told everyone that this incident 304 00:18:02,951 --> 00:18:05,562 had been something other than the military portrayed. 305 00:18:07,303 --> 00:18:08,391 - Tim Golden picked up 306 00:18:08,435 --> 00:18:10,524 the trail of the story and obtained 307 00:18:10,567 --> 00:18:13,527 a confidential file of the Army investigation 308 00:18:13,570 --> 00:18:15,746 including hundreds of pages of testimony 309 00:18:15,790 --> 00:18:17,052 from the soldiers involved. 310 00:18:18,227 --> 00:18:19,489 - Part of what made this story 311 00:18:19,533 --> 00:18:20,925 compelling to me was that you had 312 00:18:20,969 --> 00:18:23,102 these young soldiers with very little training 313 00:18:23,145 --> 00:18:25,365 or preparation, thrown into this situation 314 00:18:25,408 --> 00:18:28,107 in the aftermath of 9/11 just as the rules 315 00:18:28,150 --> 00:18:29,978 were changing and they weren't told 316 00:18:30,021 --> 00:18:32,328 what the new rules were and you had 317 00:18:32,372 --> 00:18:34,287 this young Afghan man who came in 318 00:18:34,330 --> 00:18:36,419 to this system at the wrong time 319 00:18:36,463 --> 00:18:38,160 and in the wrong way and this is what 320 00:18:38,204 --> 00:18:40,075 happened to him. 321 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,034 - I saw his picture in the New York Times article 322 00:18:43,078 --> 00:18:44,558 before that picture, I couldn't have 323 00:18:44,601 --> 00:18:48,039 picked his face out, you know, my memory 324 00:18:48,083 --> 00:18:50,868 of him was chained up with the hood on, 325 00:18:50,912 --> 00:18:52,261 no sleeping. 326 00:18:53,958 --> 00:18:55,351 - Following questions raised 327 00:18:55,395 --> 00:18:57,832 by the New York Times and under scrutiny 328 00:18:57,875 --> 00:19:00,313 from the Abu Ghraib scandal, the Army 329 00:19:00,356 --> 00:19:03,403 finally stepped up the Dilawar investigation 330 00:19:03,446 --> 00:19:07,146 and began charging soldiers with maltreatment 331 00:19:07,189 --> 00:19:09,626 maiming and homicide. 332 00:19:09,670 --> 00:19:11,846 - When you're working with the organization 333 00:19:11,889 --> 00:19:13,717 like the military, they're gonna hold 334 00:19:13,761 --> 00:19:15,545 somebody accountable, you can sweep 335 00:19:15,589 --> 00:19:18,374 some things under the rug, but this was a death 336 00:19:18,418 --> 00:19:20,289 it was two deaths and okay fine, 337 00:19:20,333 --> 00:19:21,899 they're gonna charge people. 338 00:19:21,943 --> 00:19:23,988 - It seemed like the military now, 339 00:19:24,032 --> 00:19:25,773 after they got a black eye from Abu Ghraib 340 00:19:25,816 --> 00:19:29,037 wanted to get a public opinion that they were 341 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,127 policing their soldiers and so they 342 00:19:32,171 --> 00:19:34,085 said we had this incident that happened 343 00:19:34,129 --> 00:19:36,044 a couple of years ago, we can still 344 00:19:36,087 --> 00:19:37,567 prosecute some of them. 345 00:19:39,047 --> 00:19:40,353 - I had nothing to do with the military 346 00:19:40,396 --> 00:19:41,615 for two years and all of a sudden 347 00:19:41,658 --> 00:19:42,964 I'm getting a call saying that 348 00:19:43,007 --> 00:19:44,531 I'm being court-martialed, I mean 349 00:19:44,574 --> 00:19:46,272 that was a huge surprise for me. 350 00:19:47,403 --> 00:19:48,752 - From the defense perspective, 351 00:19:48,796 --> 00:19:51,842 I immediately said this is a political show trial. 352 00:19:51,886 --> 00:19:53,975 Willie Brand is a good soldier 353 00:19:54,018 --> 00:19:55,977 good soldiers tend to obey orders, 354 00:19:56,020 --> 00:19:57,457 good soldiers tend to be people 355 00:19:57,500 --> 00:20:00,199 who do what they're trained to do. 356 00:20:01,461 --> 00:20:03,680 - The interrogators on the ground 357 00:20:03,724 --> 00:20:04,899 for the most part didn't know 358 00:20:04,942 --> 00:20:06,683 what the rules were, they'd never been 359 00:20:06,727 --> 00:20:08,424 interrogators before. 360 00:20:08,468 --> 00:20:11,558 - My interrogation training consisted 361 00:20:11,601 --> 00:20:14,604 of basically they taught us some approaches 362 00:20:14,648 --> 00:20:17,694 how to get people to talk and then 363 00:20:17,738 --> 00:20:21,350 here, go, go watch these guys interrogate 364 00:20:21,394 --> 00:20:24,005 which were the people that we were replacing 365 00:20:24,048 --> 00:20:26,790 for about five, six hours before 366 00:20:26,834 --> 00:20:28,836 I did my first interrogation. 367 00:20:28,879 --> 00:20:30,185 - Damien was picked for this job 368 00:20:30,229 --> 00:20:34,015 because he's big, he's loud and he's scary 369 00:20:34,058 --> 00:20:36,017 that was his qualification. 370 00:20:36,060 --> 00:20:38,541 - Soldiers are dying, get the information. 371 00:20:38,585 --> 00:20:41,196 That's all you're told, get the information. 372 00:20:42,893 --> 00:20:44,286 - Soldiers said that when prisoners 373 00:20:44,330 --> 00:20:47,246 like Dilawar came in to Bagram they were 374 00:20:47,289 --> 00:20:51,598 immediately assaulted. 375 00:20:51,641 --> 00:20:54,470 They blasted music at em, often 376 00:20:54,514 --> 00:20:57,299 they had dogs barking at em and they 377 00:20:57,343 --> 00:21:00,563 would use some of the most menacing 378 00:21:00,607 --> 00:21:04,350 interrogators to create this sense of threat 379 00:21:04,393 --> 00:21:06,265 one of those was Damien Corsetti. 380 00:21:07,527 --> 00:21:08,745 - With the screening you're trying to instill 381 00:21:08,789 --> 00:21:10,878 what's call shock of capture, when the person 382 00:21:10,921 --> 00:21:12,619 first comes in, that's when they're most 383 00:21:12,662 --> 00:21:14,447 apt to give you information because 384 00:21:14,490 --> 00:21:16,144 they're just like holy crap, you know 385 00:21:16,187 --> 00:21:17,754 what's going on. - It's not just that 386 00:21:17,798 --> 00:21:19,669 the disorientation procedure, it's actually 387 00:21:19,713 --> 00:21:21,715 a terrorizing procedure, it's designed 388 00:21:21,758 --> 00:21:24,021 to terrify you into spilling the beans 389 00:21:24,065 --> 00:21:26,415 as it were, being spat at, being sworn at 390 00:21:26,459 --> 00:21:27,938 having the dogs barking around, 391 00:21:27,982 --> 00:21:29,679 cameras flashing in your face. 392 00:21:29,723 --> 00:21:31,333 - Keep in mind, in their culture 393 00:21:31,377 --> 00:21:34,205 that dog's more shocking to them 394 00:21:34,249 --> 00:21:36,251 than it is to us, kinda like a woman 395 00:21:36,295 --> 00:21:38,340 telling em what to do, you know, 396 00:21:38,384 --> 00:21:39,385 it's a cultural thing, so you get 397 00:21:39,428 --> 00:21:40,647 more bang for your buck over there 398 00:21:40,690 --> 00:21:42,779 with the dog. - And then to be re-shackled 399 00:21:42,823 --> 00:21:46,174 completely naked, and to do what they call 400 00:21:46,217 --> 00:21:49,873 the body search, the cavity search 401 00:21:49,917 --> 00:21:52,528 and then to be questioned naked, shivering. 402 00:21:56,227 --> 00:21:57,403 - After they're read their rules 403 00:21:57,446 --> 00:21:58,969 and everything, they're taken to their cell 404 00:21:59,013 --> 00:22:00,362 to where they're gonna be put in 405 00:22:00,406 --> 00:22:02,886 sleep depravation for 24 hours, that's standard 406 00:22:02,930 --> 00:22:05,889 for everybody, then from their MI direct us 407 00:22:05,933 --> 00:22:07,761 that they can go to general population 408 00:22:07,804 --> 00:22:09,023 or they have to stay in isolation 409 00:22:09,066 --> 00:22:11,068 or if they are gonna stay in isolation 410 00:22:11,112 --> 00:22:12,809 if they're gonna be allowed to sleep 411 00:22:12,853 --> 00:22:14,550 and if they can, then when. 412 00:22:14,594 --> 00:22:15,725 - To weaken the defenses 413 00:22:15,769 --> 00:22:17,945 of detainees, interrogators ordered 414 00:22:17,988 --> 00:22:20,600 military police to find ways of keeping 415 00:22:20,643 --> 00:22:22,558 the prisoners awake. - You know, you're in that 416 00:22:22,602 --> 00:22:25,431 room not saying anything, oh well you know 417 00:22:25,474 --> 00:22:26,693 maybe he knows a little bit more 418 00:22:26,736 --> 00:22:30,174 let's let him lose a little bit more sleep. 419 00:22:30,218 --> 00:22:32,829 Which is the idea of keeping him like this 420 00:22:32,873 --> 00:22:34,875 so he won't sleep, you'll stand, cause as soon 421 00:22:34,918 --> 00:22:37,225 as you start to let your body go 422 00:22:37,268 --> 00:22:39,358 all that pressure on your wrists 423 00:22:39,401 --> 00:22:42,317 and your arms, you're gonna feel that with those cuffs on. 424 00:22:44,232 --> 00:22:46,060 - The only time the MPs would ever help us 425 00:22:46,103 --> 00:22:47,714 do anything would be to keep them 426 00:22:47,757 --> 00:22:50,369 on a sleep schedule, you know, they're guaranteed 427 00:22:50,412 --> 00:22:52,936 so much sleep, is that sleep consistent? 428 00:22:52,980 --> 00:22:55,025 Is it uninterrupted? 429 00:22:55,069 --> 00:22:56,157 You know, there's fifteen minutes here 430 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,072 fifteen minutes there, who knows. 431 00:22:58,115 --> 00:23:01,467 That's how it was proposed to us. 432 00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:04,644 - There'd be a board when you walk 433 00:23:04,687 --> 00:23:07,255 in the room on this wall, you might see 434 00:23:07,298 --> 00:23:10,345 an arrow going up to the ceiling 435 00:23:10,389 --> 00:23:13,827 and it would be maybe a one by it 436 00:23:13,870 --> 00:23:15,872 so that'd be an hour up, he's gotta stand up 437 00:23:15,916 --> 00:23:18,919 for one hour, and then you may see a two 438 00:23:18,962 --> 00:23:21,356 with an arrow pointing down, that means 439 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,053 he can sit down for two hours. 440 00:23:24,490 --> 00:23:25,969 - The prisoners were kept in these big pens 441 00:23:26,013 --> 00:23:28,494 downstairs and their numbers would be 442 00:23:28,537 --> 00:23:31,105 scribbled on the door of the airlock 443 00:23:31,148 --> 00:23:32,411 which was the little passageway 444 00:23:32,454 --> 00:23:34,151 that they were taken out of when 445 00:23:34,195 --> 00:23:37,894 they were brought up to the isolation cells upstairs. 446 00:23:37,938 --> 00:23:39,809 - Detainees were actually chained 447 00:23:39,853 --> 00:23:41,681 with their hands above their heads 448 00:23:41,724 --> 00:23:44,466 in these airlocks, his number 421 449 00:23:44,510 --> 00:23:46,468 was something that I could see often 450 00:23:46,512 --> 00:23:47,600 because his back was towards me 451 00:23:47,643 --> 00:23:48,949 in the airlock and the numbers 452 00:23:48,992 --> 00:23:50,690 were written on the backs of the detainees 453 00:23:50,733 --> 00:23:52,822 in black marker and we all had that 454 00:23:52,866 --> 00:23:54,084 as well as on the front. 455 00:23:54,128 --> 00:23:55,608 - What was your number? 456 00:23:55,651 --> 00:23:59,873 - My number in Bagram was 180 but later it became 558. 457 00:24:01,962 --> 00:24:03,311 - Thank you, it's great to be with ya 458 00:24:03,354 --> 00:24:06,009 it's good to be here in Bagram of course. 459 00:24:06,053 --> 00:24:07,794 - I'm sure, any high ranking officer 460 00:24:07,837 --> 00:24:10,492 who toured would see the shackles. 461 00:24:10,536 --> 00:24:12,538 Because you're gonna tour to look. 462 00:24:12,581 --> 00:24:14,278 You know, they're curious just like 463 00:24:14,322 --> 00:24:15,758 everybody else is. 464 00:24:15,802 --> 00:24:17,978 - There are always officers coming 465 00:24:18,021 --> 00:24:20,241 and going through the facility. 466 00:24:20,284 --> 00:24:22,243 We kinda joked about it as being 467 00:24:22,286 --> 00:24:23,853 the greatest show on Earth, everyone 468 00:24:23,897 --> 00:24:25,942 wanted to come and look at the terrorists. 469 00:24:25,986 --> 00:24:29,903 - Mr Rumsfeld's office called our office 470 00:24:29,946 --> 00:24:32,688 frequently, very high commanders 471 00:24:32,732 --> 00:24:34,473 would wanna be kept up to date 472 00:24:34,516 --> 00:24:36,910 on a daily basis on certain prisoners there. 473 00:24:38,041 --> 00:24:40,000 The Brass knew, they saw em shackled 474 00:24:40,043 --> 00:24:42,481 they saw em hooded and they said right on 475 00:24:42,524 --> 00:24:43,482 y'all are doing a great job. 476 00:24:44,831 --> 00:24:47,181 - When the Red Cross toured Bagram 477 00:24:47,224 --> 00:24:49,749 the sleep deprivation chart was erased 478 00:24:49,792 --> 00:24:51,577 and the prisoners were unshackled. 479 00:24:52,534 --> 00:24:53,927 - Traditional military procedure 480 00:24:53,970 --> 00:24:56,407 did not allow you to shackle somebody 481 00:24:56,451 --> 00:24:58,975 to a fixed object, certainly not 482 00:24:59,019 --> 00:25:01,848 chaining their arms overhead. 483 00:25:01,891 --> 00:25:04,938 Initially they were handcuffing people 484 00:25:04,981 --> 00:25:08,376 into the airlock of the cells for punishment 485 00:25:08,419 --> 00:25:10,160 and that was to be strictly limited 486 00:25:10,204 --> 00:25:13,773 15 minutes, half an hour, but it quickly evolved 487 00:25:13,816 --> 00:25:17,559 and when you walked in there, they just had 488 00:25:17,603 --> 00:25:20,606 a pair of long handcuffs dangling 489 00:25:20,649 --> 00:25:23,217 from the wire mesh ceiling of the cell 490 00:25:23,260 --> 00:25:25,654 ready for whoever came in. 491 00:25:41,365 --> 00:25:43,759 - The Army coroner who examined Dilawar 492 00:25:43,803 --> 00:25:47,023 discovered massive tissue damage in his legs. 493 00:25:47,067 --> 00:25:50,461 She later testified that his legs had been pulpified. 494 00:25:52,638 --> 00:25:55,554 But what could have caused that kind of damage? 495 00:25:55,597 --> 00:25:57,556 - This is not a hotel, this is a not 496 00:25:57,599 --> 00:26:00,733 a place for them to get fat, and lazy and happy. 497 00:26:01,995 --> 00:26:03,692 - In a video tape that surfaced 498 00:26:03,736 --> 00:26:06,260 as part of the homicide investigation, 499 00:26:06,303 --> 00:26:08,784 Colonel David Hayden, a top Army lawyer 500 00:26:08,828 --> 00:26:11,570 for US forces in Afghanistan described 501 00:26:11,613 --> 00:26:15,138 a Policy of shackling and striking detainees. 502 00:26:15,182 --> 00:26:17,619 - There was an approved technique for the MPs 503 00:26:17,663 --> 00:26:19,360 when somebody was a difficult prisoner 504 00:26:19,403 --> 00:26:21,405 that you could hit em on the legs, it was 505 00:26:21,449 --> 00:26:24,757 supposedly not considered not a lethal blow. 506 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,281 - I didn't actually hear a higher up say 507 00:26:27,324 --> 00:26:29,152 go and kick em in the leg, if they do this 508 00:26:29,196 --> 00:26:31,372 or do that, the higher ups said, 509 00:26:31,415 --> 00:26:34,375 if, you know, in order to get control of em 510 00:26:34,418 --> 00:26:36,595 that's an option what you can use. 511 00:26:36,638 --> 00:26:39,032 - It's just your knee going into the side 512 00:26:39,075 --> 00:26:41,774 of their thigh, bout midway up 513 00:26:41,817 --> 00:26:44,646 supposed to be a pressure point right there 514 00:26:44,690 --> 00:26:47,562 and it controls em really easy. 515 00:26:48,737 --> 00:26:50,086 - Over two ays, everybody's hitting you 516 00:26:50,130 --> 00:26:53,829 in the legs, it can cause some severe problems. 517 00:26:53,873 --> 00:26:55,701 - Throughout the investigation and even 518 00:26:55,744 --> 00:26:59,052 in the trials, a lot of the guards 519 00:26:59,095 --> 00:27:00,880 and interrogators described Dilawar 520 00:27:00,923 --> 00:27:05,319 as a very combative detainee, as a tough character 521 00:27:05,362 --> 00:27:08,148 and that's just never been reconciled 522 00:27:08,191 --> 00:27:11,107 with all the other evidence that 523 00:27:11,151 --> 00:27:12,587 there was about this guy who weighed 524 00:27:12,631 --> 00:27:14,763 122 pounds when he died. 525 00:27:16,373 --> 00:27:17,592 The men who had been passengers 526 00:27:17,636 --> 00:27:19,725 in Dilawar's taxi told us later 527 00:27:19,768 --> 00:27:22,031 that he had just been absolutely terrified 528 00:27:22,075 --> 00:27:23,772 at Bagram, that they heard him 529 00:27:23,816 --> 00:27:25,992 through the walls of the isolation cells 530 00:27:26,035 --> 00:27:28,864 screaming for his mother and father. 531 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:32,259 - He'd been in a very 532 00:27:32,302 --> 00:27:34,783 uncomfortable position muttering things 533 00:27:34,827 --> 00:27:37,090 sometimes praying, sometimes asking for help 534 00:27:37,133 --> 00:27:39,048 or seemingly asking for help, 535 00:27:39,092 --> 00:27:41,485 because I couldn't understand his language. 536 00:27:42,661 --> 00:27:43,879 - A number of witnesses 537 00:27:43,923 --> 00:27:46,055 remember the night before Dilawar died. 538 00:27:47,317 --> 00:27:48,710 - Just that one night, he got kicked 539 00:27:48,754 --> 00:27:50,886 in the leg maybe like 10 times. 540 00:27:50,930 --> 00:27:52,322 - Some of the soldiers said they started 541 00:27:52,366 --> 00:27:53,715 using the knee strikes essentially 542 00:27:53,759 --> 00:27:55,891 to shut em up because he was yelling 543 00:27:55,935 --> 00:27:58,502 and screaming. - The damage that was done 544 00:27:58,546 --> 00:28:01,592 was done from multiple strikes and a lot 545 00:28:01,636 --> 00:28:03,464 of that could have been avoided 546 00:28:03,507 --> 00:28:05,379 had you known the person before you 547 00:28:05,422 --> 00:28:08,164 had fought with them and used that exact technique. 548 00:28:10,514 --> 00:28:12,212 - When they eventually came to take him 549 00:28:12,255 --> 00:28:14,214 to an isolation cell, I believe 550 00:28:14,257 --> 00:28:16,651 his body had become almost limp. 551 00:28:16,695 --> 00:28:18,958 One of the reasons why they began punching him 552 00:28:19,001 --> 00:28:22,265 was that they felt he was putting it on. 553 00:28:22,309 --> 00:28:24,615 He was in the airlock, standing there 554 00:28:24,659 --> 00:28:27,357 with a hood over his head, he had 555 00:28:27,401 --> 00:28:31,797 his hands tied above his head and he was moaning. 556 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,234 - He just started to fight, right there 557 00:28:34,277 --> 00:28:36,018 in the airlock and the airlock has 558 00:28:36,062 --> 00:28:38,586 a front gate and a back gate but both 559 00:28:38,629 --> 00:28:41,676 the sides are concertina wire, neither 560 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:43,112 of us officers wanted to get in 561 00:28:43,156 --> 00:28:46,507 to the concertina wire, so we pulled him out 562 00:28:46,550 --> 00:28:48,639 of the airlock and put him on the floor 563 00:28:48,683 --> 00:28:50,729 and put him into restraints. 564 00:28:50,772 --> 00:28:52,078 - What kind of force 565 00:28:52,121 --> 00:28:53,775 did you have to use in order to subdue him? 566 00:28:53,819 --> 00:28:55,516 - Physical force, he was struck. 567 00:28:56,952 --> 00:28:58,911 - There's like four MPs on this guy 568 00:28:58,954 --> 00:29:02,610 and one of the MPs just kept giving him 569 00:29:02,653 --> 00:29:06,266 kidney shots, the other two, they'd slammed 570 00:29:06,309 --> 00:29:08,834 him to the ground and then the fourth one 571 00:29:08,877 --> 00:29:13,621 jumped on his back, he got a big gash on his nose. 572 00:29:14,665 --> 00:29:16,624 - There was no reason to hit him, 573 00:29:16,667 --> 00:29:18,321 let's remember he's shackled. 574 00:29:18,365 --> 00:29:20,584 - Even when the control was an issue, 575 00:29:20,628 --> 00:29:22,499 it became well I'm just gonna do this 576 00:29:22,543 --> 00:29:24,545 to get mine in, and that's probably 577 00:29:24,588 --> 00:29:27,156 why they got in trouble, because you really 578 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,333 couldn't justify kicking the guy 579 00:29:30,377 --> 00:29:32,335 that much if he was just chained up. 580 00:29:34,163 --> 00:29:35,556 - Dilawar was taken to 581 00:29:35,599 --> 00:29:38,646 an isolation cell, where the knee strikes continued. 582 00:29:40,169 --> 00:29:42,737 In her statement at trial, the Army coroner 583 00:29:42,781 --> 00:29:44,695 said his lower limbs looked like 584 00:29:44,739 --> 00:29:46,480 they had been run over by a bus. 585 00:29:47,394 --> 00:29:49,048 Had he lived, it would have been 586 00:29:49,091 --> 00:29:52,703 necessary to amputate his legs. 587 00:29:52,747 --> 00:29:54,270 - Then it kinda raised the question of 588 00:29:54,314 --> 00:29:56,446 this is what we did to him, it's not 589 00:29:56,490 --> 00:29:57,665 just this is what I did to him 590 00:29:57,708 --> 00:29:59,928 or this is what Cammack did to him 591 00:29:59,972 --> 00:30:02,278 or Morden or anybody, it just this is 592 00:30:02,322 --> 00:30:03,149 what we've done. 593 00:30:05,891 --> 00:30:07,762 - It's almost hard to fathom now, 594 00:30:07,806 --> 00:30:10,156 you had soldiers like Willie Brand 595 00:30:10,199 --> 00:30:12,158 who seems like this very gentle 596 00:30:12,201 --> 00:30:15,117 kind of soft spoken guy, but who testified 597 00:30:15,161 --> 00:30:17,598 that he struck Dilawar so many times 598 00:30:17,641 --> 00:30:19,556 in the leg that his knee got tired 599 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,471 and he had to switch to the other one. 600 00:30:22,951 --> 00:30:27,869 - Sometimes I feel that I should have gone with 601 00:30:27,913 --> 00:30:32,874 my own morality more then what was common. 602 00:30:37,226 --> 00:30:38,532 - One MP testified that 603 00:30:38,575 --> 00:30:40,186 the strikes became an amusement, 604 00:30:40,229 --> 00:30:42,362 inflicted on Dilawar just to hear 605 00:30:42,405 --> 00:30:45,191 him scream Allah. - Some would say well hey 606 00:30:45,234 --> 00:30:46,409 you should have stopped this, you should 607 00:30:46,453 --> 00:30:48,585 have stopped that, when you saw he was 608 00:30:48,629 --> 00:30:50,892 injured or saw he was being kicked on his knees, 609 00:30:50,936 --> 00:30:52,024 why didn't you do something? 610 00:30:52,067 --> 00:30:54,548 That'd be a good question, my answer 611 00:30:54,591 --> 00:30:56,028 would be well, it was us against them 612 00:30:56,071 --> 00:30:58,465 I was over there, I didn't wanna appear 613 00:30:58,508 --> 00:31:01,207 to be going against my fellow soldiers. 614 00:31:02,904 --> 00:31:06,038 Which is that wrong, you could sit here 615 00:31:06,081 --> 00:31:07,735 and say that was dead wrong, 616 00:31:07,778 --> 00:31:09,128 go over there and say that. 617 00:31:13,654 --> 00:31:15,134 - No one ever investigated 618 00:31:15,177 --> 00:31:16,700 who set the rules at Bagram. 619 00:31:18,093 --> 00:31:20,922 Investigators never asked Captain Wood 620 00:31:20,966 --> 00:31:23,185 what senior officers had given orders 621 00:31:23,229 --> 00:31:25,100 to treat detainees in ways that were 622 00:31:25,144 --> 00:31:27,668 forbidden according to the Army Field Manual. 623 00:31:29,148 --> 00:31:31,237 MP Captain Beiring was the only 624 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:32,847 officer prosecuted in the case. 625 00:31:34,109 --> 00:31:36,895 His dereliction of duty charge was dismissed 626 00:31:36,938 --> 00:31:38,940 when the judge determined that no one 627 00:31:38,984 --> 00:31:41,900 had made clear what Captain Beiring's duty was. 628 00:31:43,510 --> 00:31:45,947 In spite of repeated requests for proper training 629 00:31:45,991 --> 00:31:48,645 rules of engagement for his soldiers 630 00:31:48,689 --> 00:31:51,170 his superiors gave him neither. 631 00:31:51,213 --> 00:31:52,736 - We were all worried about not having 632 00:31:52,780 --> 00:31:54,869 that written guidelines, by they kept 633 00:31:54,913 --> 00:31:56,566 reassuring us that it was coming. 634 00:31:58,655 --> 00:32:00,135 - We knew exactly why we weren't getting 635 00:32:00,179 --> 00:32:02,311 clear guidance, just in case something 636 00:32:02,355 --> 00:32:03,095 like this happened. 637 00:32:04,444 --> 00:32:07,012 - If I had to do it again, I'd probably say no 638 00:32:07,055 --> 00:32:10,102 I just, I'd be like I'm not doing anything 639 00:32:10,145 --> 00:32:12,017 until I see something in writing. 640 00:32:14,715 --> 00:32:15,934 - And do you think, 641 00:32:15,977 --> 00:32:18,066 looking back, do you think you were misled? 642 00:32:20,677 --> 00:32:22,288 - I think we all were. 643 00:32:52,013 --> 00:32:54,624 - A week after September 11th 644 00:32:54,668 --> 00:32:57,062 Vice President Dick Cheney appeared 645 00:32:57,105 --> 00:32:59,934 on Meet the Press to describe how 646 00:32:59,978 --> 00:33:03,285 interrogation policies were about to change. 647 00:33:06,158 --> 00:33:08,899 - I have to work the dark side, if you will 648 00:33:08,943 --> 00:33:10,684 spend time in the shadows, in the 649 00:33:10,727 --> 00:33:13,165 intelligence world, a lot of what 650 00:33:13,208 --> 00:33:15,428 needs to be done here will have to be done 651 00:33:15,471 --> 00:33:17,212 quietly without any discussion, 652 00:33:17,256 --> 00:33:18,779 using sources and methods that 653 00:33:18,822 --> 00:33:21,303 are available to our intelligence agencies 654 00:33:21,347 --> 00:33:24,219 if we're gonna be successful, that's the world 655 00:33:24,263 --> 00:33:27,048 these folks operate in and so it's gonna 656 00:33:27,092 --> 00:33:30,008 be vital for us to use any means at our disposal, 657 00:33:30,051 --> 00:33:31,922 basically, to achieve our objective. 658 00:33:33,402 --> 00:33:35,100 - It's very clear that it starts 659 00:33:35,143 --> 00:33:37,450 in the office of Vice President Cheney 660 00:33:37,493 --> 00:33:41,758 he had a very strong view that we were not 661 00:33:41,802 --> 00:33:44,935 as aggressive in dealing with people 662 00:33:44,979 --> 00:33:47,634 in interrogations as we could or should be. 663 00:33:49,070 --> 00:33:53,074 Taking the gloves off, being rough with detainees. 664 00:33:53,118 --> 00:33:54,206 - If Dick Cheney was 665 00:33:54,249 --> 00:33:56,817 the primary architect of a new policy, 666 00:33:56,860 --> 00:33:59,515 John Yoo was the chief draftsman. 667 00:33:59,559 --> 00:34:01,474 He wrote guiding opinions which argued 668 00:34:01,517 --> 00:34:05,739 for a flexibly approach to treating suspected terrorists. 669 00:34:05,782 --> 00:34:07,654 - United States used to treat terrorism 670 00:34:07,697 --> 00:34:09,786 as a criminal justice problem. 671 00:34:09,830 --> 00:34:11,788 The September 11th attacks showed that 672 00:34:11,832 --> 00:34:13,312 the struggle with Al-Qaeda had moved 673 00:34:13,355 --> 00:34:16,532 into warfare, I think when a sworn enemy 674 00:34:16,576 --> 00:34:18,099 for political purposes can kill 675 00:34:18,143 --> 00:34:20,275 three thousand Americans, cause billions 676 00:34:20,319 --> 00:34:23,278 of dollars of damage and try to eliminate 677 00:34:23,322 --> 00:34:25,280 the leaders of the American Government 678 00:34:25,324 --> 00:34:27,413 that sounds like war to most people, 679 00:34:27,456 --> 00:34:29,545 it doesn't sound like crime. 680 00:34:29,589 --> 00:34:30,720 - President Bush declared 681 00:34:30,764 --> 00:34:33,941 a war on terror, but he raised questions 682 00:34:33,984 --> 00:34:35,856 about whether suspected terrorists 683 00:34:35,899 --> 00:34:38,511 should be protected by the laws of war. 684 00:34:38,554 --> 00:34:40,034 The Geneva Conventions. 685 00:34:42,471 --> 00:34:44,125 Atrocities that shocked the conscience 686 00:34:44,169 --> 00:34:45,909 of the world gave rise to the modern 687 00:34:45,953 --> 00:34:48,738 Geneva Conventions, international treaties 688 00:34:48,782 --> 00:34:50,653 meant to provide fundamental protections 689 00:34:50,697 --> 00:34:53,830 for every human being captured in war time. 690 00:34:56,398 --> 00:34:59,140 In effect for over 50 years, Geneva offered 691 00:34:59,184 --> 00:35:02,100 legal protections and prohibited interrogators 692 00:35:02,143 --> 00:35:05,364 from using torture, murder, or even 693 00:35:05,407 --> 00:35:07,279 humiliating and degrading treatment. 694 00:35:08,932 --> 00:35:11,718 After 9/11, John Yoo worked closely 695 00:35:11,761 --> 00:35:14,721 with Dick Cheney's office and Alberto Gonzales 696 00:35:14,764 --> 00:35:16,897 the Counsel to the President. 697 00:35:16,940 --> 00:35:19,073 They wrote a series of memos arguing 698 00:35:19,117 --> 00:35:21,641 that the Geneva Conventions did not apply 699 00:35:21,684 --> 00:35:24,644 to suspected terrorists and they gave 700 00:35:24,687 --> 00:35:28,038 legal cover for the CIA and Special Forces 701 00:35:28,082 --> 00:35:30,519 to embark on a secret program 702 00:35:30,563 --> 00:35:34,393 of previously forbidden interrogation techniques. 703 00:35:34,436 --> 00:35:36,308 - More than 3000 suspected terrorists 704 00:35:36,351 --> 00:35:38,527 have been arrested in many countries 705 00:35:38,571 --> 00:35:40,790 many others have met a different fate 706 00:35:40,834 --> 00:35:43,793 let's put it this way, they're no longer 707 00:35:43,837 --> 00:35:45,230 a problem to the United States 708 00:35:45,273 --> 00:35:46,970 and our friends and allies. 709 00:35:52,454 --> 00:35:53,673 - The problem for the President, 710 00:35:53,716 --> 00:35:55,892 Gonzalez warned, was that some 711 00:35:55,936 --> 00:35:57,807 of the new interrogation techniques 712 00:35:57,851 --> 00:36:01,289 were banned under US and international law. 713 00:36:01,333 --> 00:36:02,986 - One of the points that he makes 714 00:36:03,030 --> 00:36:05,685 is that we don't want the Geneva Conventions 715 00:36:05,728 --> 00:36:10,385 to apply because if they do, these things 716 00:36:10,429 --> 00:36:13,823 can be war crimes. - What's well known is 717 00:36:13,867 --> 00:36:16,696 the principle of command responsibility. 718 00:36:16,739 --> 00:36:18,611 This was established in the Nuremberg trials 719 00:36:18,654 --> 00:36:20,526 after World War II and it established 720 00:36:20,569 --> 00:36:23,093 the principle of international criminal law 721 00:36:23,137 --> 00:36:25,574 that individuals who order illegal treatment 722 00:36:25,618 --> 00:36:27,402 will be held accountable for the illegal 723 00:36:27,446 --> 00:36:29,361 treatment even if they're not immediately 724 00:36:29,404 --> 00:36:32,146 applying the kind of abusive treatment. 725 00:36:34,104 --> 00:36:35,410 - To be certain that Americans 726 00:36:35,454 --> 00:36:37,064 interrogating prisoners would not 727 00:36:37,107 --> 00:36:40,154 be accused of torture, John Yoo co-authored 728 00:36:40,198 --> 00:36:43,984 a memo that would clarify the meaning of the term. 729 00:36:44,027 --> 00:36:45,942 - The only prohibited acts would be 730 00:36:45,986 --> 00:36:48,206 extreme acts which are equivalent 731 00:36:48,249 --> 00:36:52,035 to serious physical injury, such as organ failure 732 00:36:52,079 --> 00:36:55,561 impairment of bodily functions or even death. 733 00:36:55,604 --> 00:36:58,999 That's an illegal memo, that's the so-called torture memo. 734 00:36:59,042 --> 00:37:02,263 - That was an arguable interpretation 735 00:37:02,307 --> 00:37:04,961 of the law, I'm sure we had discussions about it 736 00:37:05,005 --> 00:37:07,137 and ultimately it was accepted, 737 00:37:07,181 --> 00:37:09,966 because it represent, that was the ultimate 738 00:37:10,010 --> 00:37:12,969 decision and position of the Office of Legal Counsel. 739 00:37:15,058 --> 00:37:17,974 - The Office of Legal Counsel memorandum 740 00:37:18,018 --> 00:37:21,195 was unbounded, meaning nowhere did it state 741 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,806 that the application of cruel and inhuman 742 00:37:23,850 --> 00:37:25,721 and degrading treatment was prohibited 743 00:37:25,765 --> 00:37:27,375 and at one point, I asked John Yoo 744 00:37:27,419 --> 00:37:29,464 can the President authorize torture 745 00:37:29,508 --> 00:37:31,945 and his response was yes. 746 00:37:33,294 --> 00:37:34,904 - I think the lawyers job is to tell 747 00:37:34,948 --> 00:37:37,124 people what laws do or do not apply 748 00:37:37,167 --> 00:37:38,865 so that they know what space they have 749 00:37:38,908 --> 00:37:40,475 to make the policy decision. 750 00:37:42,695 --> 00:37:44,218 - If the President deems that 751 00:37:44,262 --> 00:37:46,786 he's got to torture somebody, including 752 00:37:46,829 --> 00:37:50,006 by crushing the testicles of the person's child, 753 00:37:50,050 --> 00:37:52,182 there is no law that can stop that? 754 00:37:52,226 --> 00:37:54,228 That's what you wrote in the August 2002 memo. 755 00:37:54,272 --> 00:37:55,751 - I think it depends on why the President 756 00:37:55,795 --> 00:37:57,666 thinks he needs to do that. 757 00:37:58,537 --> 00:38:00,321 - Military lawyers were outraged 758 00:38:00,365 --> 00:38:02,976 by the implications of John Yoo's memo. 759 00:38:03,019 --> 00:38:04,978 - My first involvement in this came 760 00:38:05,021 --> 00:38:07,676 when I was visited by a group of senior 761 00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:09,983 JAG officers, more than a year before 762 00:38:10,026 --> 00:38:12,072 the first story about the Abu Ghraib broke 763 00:38:12,115 --> 00:38:14,553 who were very troubled about what was going on 764 00:38:14,596 --> 00:38:16,337 and the focus of their concern 765 00:38:16,381 --> 00:38:19,558 was failing in the responsibilities 766 00:38:19,601 --> 00:38:21,255 that the military leadership had, 767 00:38:21,299 --> 00:38:23,257 to soldiers in the field, that was the 768 00:38:23,301 --> 00:38:25,781 responsibility to provide fair, 769 00:38:25,825 --> 00:38:27,870 clear guidance to them as to how 770 00:38:27,914 --> 00:38:30,743 to behave in these difficult circumstances 771 00:38:30,786 --> 00:38:34,355 and what they saw was an intentional 772 00:38:34,399 --> 00:38:37,576 decision taken at the height of the Pentagon 773 00:38:37,619 --> 00:38:42,102 to put out a fog of ambiguity coupled with 774 00:38:42,145 --> 00:38:44,713 great pressure to bring results 775 00:38:44,757 --> 00:38:49,588 to be prepared to be violent with the detainees 776 00:38:49,631 --> 00:38:53,679 but you know, this violence with the detainees 777 00:38:53,722 --> 00:38:54,941 is a criminal act. 778 00:38:56,769 --> 00:39:00,163 - They may be Al-Qaeda, they may be Taliban 779 00:39:00,207 --> 00:39:02,122 they may be the worst people in the world 780 00:39:02,165 --> 00:39:04,254 and I'm sure that some of them are 781 00:39:04,298 --> 00:39:07,214 but there are certain basic rules 782 00:39:07,257 --> 00:39:09,042 and international agreements that the United states 783 00:39:09,085 --> 00:39:12,045 has agreed to, that we will observe 784 00:39:12,088 --> 00:39:13,612 you go ahead and please respond, 785 00:39:13,655 --> 00:39:15,962 you wanted to. - Very quickly, let me clarify 786 00:39:16,005 --> 00:39:18,878 the President's policy, "as a matter of policy 787 00:39:18,921 --> 00:39:20,096 "the United States Armed Forces 788 00:39:20,140 --> 00:39:22,664 "shall continue to treat detainees humanely 789 00:39:22,708 --> 00:39:24,927 "and to the extent appropriate and consistent 790 00:39:24,971 --> 00:39:27,016 "with military necessity in a manner 791 00:39:27,060 --> 00:39:29,802 "consistent with the principles of Geneva." 792 00:39:29,845 --> 00:39:32,413 - That is a legalistic statement and one 793 00:39:32,457 --> 00:39:34,067 that is written with loopholes 794 00:39:34,110 --> 00:39:35,895 and it's clear to me, the interrogators 795 00:39:35,938 --> 00:39:39,507 did not understand that quote "humane treatment" 796 00:39:39,551 --> 00:39:42,031 might be in the eye of the beholder. 797 00:39:43,772 --> 00:39:45,513 - In the field in Afghanistan, 798 00:39:45,557 --> 00:39:47,297 there was a great deal of confusion 799 00:39:47,341 --> 00:39:49,996 about exactly what the rules were. 800 00:39:50,039 --> 00:39:52,128 - They told us when dealing with the PUCs 801 00:39:52,172 --> 00:39:55,088 as they called them, the persons under US custody 802 00:39:55,131 --> 00:39:57,699 they don't fall under Geneva Conventions, 803 00:39:57,743 --> 00:39:59,571 basically, the only thing that we weren't allowed 804 00:39:59,614 --> 00:40:01,181 to do is beat em up. 805 00:40:02,269 --> 00:40:03,488 - Person under control, 806 00:40:03,531 --> 00:40:05,794 person under custody, something like that, 807 00:40:05,838 --> 00:40:06,882 you know, they call them anything 808 00:40:06,926 --> 00:40:08,275 to dehumanize em, so that you don't 809 00:40:08,318 --> 00:40:10,146 look at them as people. 810 00:40:10,190 --> 00:40:11,539 - I don't remember hearing anything 811 00:40:11,583 --> 00:40:16,022 about Geneva Convention, 'course I'm familiar 812 00:40:16,065 --> 00:40:18,241 with it, but they didn't go over that 813 00:40:18,285 --> 00:40:20,983 in any kind of detail. 814 00:40:21,027 --> 00:40:22,463 - I didn't know what the Field Manual 815 00:40:22,507 --> 00:40:23,769 for interrogation, I didn't know 816 00:40:23,812 --> 00:40:25,858 the proper nomenclature for it, I'd seen it, 817 00:40:25,901 --> 00:40:27,337 there was a copy of it lying around 818 00:40:27,381 --> 00:40:30,253 I'm sure somewhere, and if I had chosen to, 819 00:40:30,297 --> 00:40:32,125 I could have picked it up and read it 820 00:40:32,168 --> 00:40:34,475 but I was working 16 hour days 821 00:40:34,519 --> 00:40:36,564 to sit down and read a field manual 822 00:40:36,608 --> 00:40:39,175 was not top of my priorities over there. 823 00:40:40,699 --> 00:40:43,571 - It is a mean, nasty, dangerous, dirty 824 00:40:43,615 --> 00:40:46,052 business out there and we have to operate 825 00:40:46,095 --> 00:40:48,707 in that arena, I'm convinced we can do it 826 00:40:48,750 --> 00:40:50,143 we can do it successfully but we need 827 00:40:50,186 --> 00:40:52,058 to make certain that we have not 828 00:40:52,101 --> 00:40:53,886 tied the hands, if you will, of our 829 00:40:53,929 --> 00:40:57,280 intelligence communities in terms of 830 00:40:57,324 --> 00:40:58,325 accomplishing their mission. 831 00:40:58,368 --> 00:40:59,761 - These terrorists play by a whole 832 00:40:59,805 --> 00:41:02,242 set of different rules, it's gonna force us 833 00:41:02,285 --> 00:41:04,810 in your words, to get mean, dirty and nasty 834 00:41:04,853 --> 00:41:06,812 in order to take em on? - Right. 835 00:41:17,562 --> 00:41:19,041 - Guided by a legal opinion 836 00:41:19,085 --> 00:41:21,609 from John Yoo, the Bush Administration 837 00:41:21,653 --> 00:41:24,133 began shipping some high-value detainees 838 00:41:24,177 --> 00:41:28,181 to the US Naval Base, in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. 839 00:41:30,488 --> 00:41:32,925 - Initially I thought good, safe place. 840 00:41:32,968 --> 00:41:35,580 Put them there, barbed wire all over. 841 00:41:35,623 --> 00:41:38,278 Then it became apparent that the reason 842 00:41:38,321 --> 00:41:40,585 we were doing it was because we were 843 00:41:40,628 --> 00:41:43,544 going to argue that there's no law. 844 00:41:43,588 --> 00:41:47,156 A Cuban law didn't apply, US law didn't apply 845 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,159 well that was a big step down the slippery slope. 846 00:41:50,203 --> 00:41:51,465 - I think what the policy makers 847 00:41:51,509 --> 00:41:53,554 were trying to do was to try to find a place 848 00:41:53,598 --> 00:41:55,904 that was physically as close to 849 00:41:55,948 --> 00:41:57,863 the unIted States so it could be well protected 850 00:41:57,906 --> 00:41:59,691 but still would benefit from the rule 851 00:41:59,734 --> 00:42:01,606 that the United states military, 852 00:42:01,649 --> 00:42:04,217 is one who has ultimate say and control 853 00:42:04,260 --> 00:42:07,133 over enemy prisoners who are held outside the country. 854 00:42:10,658 --> 00:42:13,095 - One by one, the terrorists are learning 855 00:42:13,139 --> 00:42:15,663 the meaning of American justice. 856 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,725 - In December 2001, a man named 857 00:42:33,768 --> 00:42:35,509 Mohammed al-Qahtani was swept up 858 00:42:35,553 --> 00:42:38,643 in Afghanistan and sent to Guantanamo. 859 00:42:40,253 --> 00:42:42,211 After eight months in detention 860 00:42:42,255 --> 00:42:43,909 the Army discovered that he may 861 00:42:43,952 --> 00:42:45,998 have trained to be the 20th hijacker. 862 00:42:47,086 --> 00:42:49,262 Suddenly, Qahtani became the most 863 00:42:49,305 --> 00:42:51,786 important detainee in Guantanamo. 864 00:42:55,616 --> 00:42:57,270 - Here we had a man who was supposed 865 00:42:57,313 --> 00:42:59,228 to have been on that plane that was flown 866 00:42:59,272 --> 00:43:01,317 into the Pennsylvania countryside 867 00:43:01,361 --> 00:43:04,146 so I think there was a sense of urgency 868 00:43:04,190 --> 00:43:06,192 to find out what this guy knew in order 869 00:43:06,235 --> 00:43:08,803 to be able to prevent any future attacks. 870 00:43:08,847 --> 00:43:10,936 - He successfully resisted standard 871 00:43:10,979 --> 00:43:12,851 interrogation techniques at Guantanamo 872 00:43:12,894 --> 00:43:15,288 for eight months and he is the genesis 873 00:43:15,331 --> 00:43:17,203 for the request by the joint task force 874 00:43:17,246 --> 00:43:20,249 at Guantanamo for more techniques 875 00:43:20,293 --> 00:43:23,035 that might be able to get past his resistance training. 876 00:43:24,558 --> 00:43:26,865 - In September 2002, 877 00:43:26,908 --> 00:43:29,345 John Yoo and Alberto Gonzalez traveled 878 00:43:29,389 --> 00:43:33,654 to Guantanamo, soon after their visit, 879 00:43:33,698 --> 00:43:36,875 and just before Dilawar's arrival at Bagram, 880 00:43:36,918 --> 00:43:38,790 Donald Rumsfeld personally approved 881 00:43:38,833 --> 00:43:41,140 a new menu of psychological interrogation 882 00:43:41,183 --> 00:43:44,360 techniques for use on Mohammed al-Qahtani. 883 00:43:46,058 --> 00:43:48,582 Exactly how the techniques would be applied 884 00:43:48,626 --> 00:43:51,541 was often left to the imagination 885 00:43:51,585 --> 00:43:52,717 of the interrogators. 886 00:44:02,944 --> 00:44:06,034 - His interrogations are well-documented 887 00:44:06,078 --> 00:44:08,776 in a log and from November 2002 in to 888 00:44:08,820 --> 00:44:12,562 early January 2003, he was subjected to this regime. 889 00:44:14,347 --> 00:44:17,567 It involved very severe sleep deprivation. 890 00:44:21,310 --> 00:44:22,834 He was only permitted to sleep 891 00:44:22,877 --> 00:44:25,706 four hours a day from seven o'clock in the morning 892 00:44:25,750 --> 00:44:27,055 till 11 o'clock in the morning, 893 00:44:27,099 --> 00:44:29,667 and that lasted for 50 days with one exception. 894 00:44:32,147 --> 00:44:35,629 He was held in severe isolation and sensory deprivation. 895 00:44:44,769 --> 00:44:45,987 There are a number of instances 896 00:44:46,031 --> 00:44:47,685 in the log where you'll see the phrase 897 00:44:47,728 --> 00:44:49,687 invasion of space by a female, 898 00:44:49,730 --> 00:44:51,253 and that was actually an interrogation 899 00:44:51,297 --> 00:44:53,691 tactic designed to break his faith. 900 00:44:55,562 --> 00:44:56,998 - An interrogator approached detainee 901 00:44:57,042 --> 00:44:58,696 from behind, rubbed his back, whispered 902 00:44:58,739 --> 00:45:00,567 in his ear and ran fingers through his hair 903 00:45:00,610 --> 00:45:03,657 that was authorized under the futility technique. 904 00:45:08,531 --> 00:45:11,012 - He was subjected to what I would call 905 00:45:11,056 --> 00:45:13,406 sexual assault by female interrogators. 906 00:45:16,714 --> 00:45:18,585 - He was forced to wear women's lingerie 907 00:45:18,628 --> 00:45:21,762 multiple allegations of homosexuality 908 00:45:21,806 --> 00:45:23,851 and that his comrades were aware of that 909 00:45:23,895 --> 00:45:26,724 he was forced to dance with a male interrogator 910 00:45:26,767 --> 00:45:29,683 subject to strip searches for control measures 911 00:45:29,727 --> 00:45:32,033 not for security, and he was forced 912 00:45:32,077 --> 00:45:34,209 to perform dog tricks. 913 00:45:34,253 --> 00:45:37,082 All this to lower his personal sense of worth. 914 00:45:44,002 --> 00:45:47,135 - They tried to categorize it as individual 915 00:45:47,179 --> 00:45:48,615 interrogators pushing the envelope 916 00:45:48,658 --> 00:45:50,312 or starting to get quote creative. 917 00:46:06,676 --> 00:46:09,288 ♪ God bless America 918 00:46:09,331 --> 00:46:12,204 ♪ Land that I love 919 00:46:30,570 --> 00:46:33,791 - The combination of his lack of food intake 920 00:46:33,834 --> 00:46:37,142 and forcible hydration led him at one point 921 00:46:37,185 --> 00:46:38,360 to actually, his heart slowed down 922 00:46:38,404 --> 00:46:40,014 to 35 beats per minute and he was rushed 923 00:46:40,058 --> 00:46:43,757 to the hospital to be revived. 924 00:46:53,201 --> 00:46:54,899 - Mohammed al-Qahtani in many ways 925 00:46:54,942 --> 00:46:58,685 that single interrogation, protected interrogation 926 00:46:58,728 --> 00:47:00,643 contains within it, if you will, 927 00:47:00,687 --> 00:47:03,646 the entire genealogy, the entire history 928 00:47:03,690 --> 00:47:06,214 of CIA torture over the last 50 years. 929 00:47:07,389 --> 00:47:10,044 The CIA launched a mind control project, 930 00:47:10,088 --> 00:47:11,829 a veritable Manhattan Project of the mind 931 00:47:11,872 --> 00:47:15,310 in the 1950s, in house, the CIA worked on 932 00:47:15,354 --> 00:47:18,574 exotic techniques, hypnosis, and then 933 00:47:18,618 --> 00:47:19,924 they worked on sodium penothal 934 00:47:19,967 --> 00:47:21,316 then they worked on electro shock 935 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,580 and ultimately, they discovered LSD. 936 00:47:24,624 --> 00:47:26,887 All of that drug stuff, in house, went nowhere 937 00:47:26,931 --> 00:47:30,499 except to lawsuits, but what did work 938 00:47:30,543 --> 00:47:33,763 was the CIA outsourced all of the dull 939 00:47:33,807 --> 00:47:36,897 behavioral research to the most brilliant 940 00:47:36,941 --> 00:47:38,594 behavioral scientists at the top 941 00:47:38,638 --> 00:47:40,727 universities in the United States and Canada. 942 00:47:40,770 --> 00:47:42,163 - At McGill, experiments 943 00:47:42,207 --> 00:47:44,644 by famed psychologist Donald O. Hebb 944 00:47:44,687 --> 00:47:47,255 caught the eye of CIA researchers. 945 00:47:47,299 --> 00:47:49,301 - Doctor Hebb found that he could 946 00:47:49,344 --> 00:47:53,131 induce a state akin to a acute psychosis 947 00:47:53,174 --> 00:47:55,481 in 48 hours, all he did was he had 948 00:47:55,524 --> 00:47:58,223 student volunteers sit in a very pleasant 949 00:47:58,266 --> 00:48:00,703 air-conditioned cubicle with goggles, 950 00:48:00,747 --> 00:48:02,618 gloves and ear muffs, actually, you know 951 00:48:02,662 --> 00:48:03,750 what they looked just like? 952 00:48:03,793 --> 00:48:05,708 The Guantanamo detainees, if you see 953 00:48:05,752 --> 00:48:07,885 those outfits that the Guantanamo detainees 954 00:48:07,928 --> 00:48:09,277 have where they have the gloves, 955 00:48:09,321 --> 00:48:10,931 and the googles and the earmuffs? 956 00:48:10,975 --> 00:48:12,106 Not everything's all about security, 957 00:48:12,150 --> 00:48:14,717 no, no, no, that's sensory breakdown. 958 00:48:14,761 --> 00:48:17,982 Within a day, there would be hallucinations 959 00:48:18,025 --> 00:48:19,766 within two days, breakdown. 960 00:48:19,809 --> 00:48:21,942 - I began to think while we were doing 961 00:48:21,986 --> 00:48:25,032 our experiments, it's possible that something 962 00:48:25,076 --> 00:48:28,557 that involves physical discomfort or even pain 963 00:48:28,601 --> 00:48:30,733 might be more tolerable than simply 964 00:48:30,777 --> 00:48:34,172 the deprivation conditions that we studied. 965 00:48:34,215 --> 00:48:35,695 - The CIA was fascinated by this, 966 00:48:35,738 --> 00:48:37,131 they jumped on it immediately. 967 00:48:37,175 --> 00:48:39,264 - I had no idea what a potentially vicious 968 00:48:39,307 --> 00:48:41,440 weapon this could be. 969 00:48:41,483 --> 00:48:44,312 - They identified two key techniques. 970 00:48:44,356 --> 00:48:46,445 They identified sensory disorientation 971 00:48:46,488 --> 00:48:48,055 and they identified self-inflicted pain, 972 00:48:48,099 --> 00:48:50,884 standing for days at a time while fluid 973 00:48:50,928 --> 00:48:53,669 flowed to the legs and they put them together 974 00:48:53,713 --> 00:48:56,455 in the Kubark Counterintelligence 975 00:48:56,498 --> 00:48:58,065 Interrogation manual 976 00:48:58,109 --> 00:49:00,111 and they propagated around the world 977 00:49:00,154 --> 00:49:02,809 and through the US intelligence community. 978 00:49:04,376 --> 00:49:06,987 Think about what al-Qahtani was subjected to, okay? 979 00:49:07,031 --> 00:49:09,381 First of all, he's in dark, he's in light 980 00:49:09,424 --> 00:49:12,297 he's in cold, he's in heat, what they're doing 981 00:49:12,340 --> 00:49:14,386 is they're attacking his universal 982 00:49:14,429 --> 00:49:16,518 sensory receptors, they're also scrambling 983 00:49:16,562 --> 00:49:18,607 his time, so that's phase one. 984 00:49:19,957 --> 00:49:24,309 In Guantanamo under the regime of General Miller 985 00:49:24,352 --> 00:49:26,702 he turned Guantanamo into a veritable 986 00:49:26,746 --> 00:49:28,661 behavioral scientific laboratory 987 00:49:29,792 --> 00:49:31,359 and Donald Rumsfeld gave orders 988 00:49:31,403 --> 00:49:34,058 for techniques beyond the field manual 989 00:49:34,101 --> 00:49:35,973 and they percolated and they percolated 990 00:49:36,016 --> 00:49:38,540 in ambiguous way that allowed people to 991 00:49:39,759 --> 00:49:42,327 do what they thought needed to be done. 992 00:49:42,370 --> 00:49:45,373 And they explored our male sensitivity 993 00:49:45,417 --> 00:49:48,376 to gender and sexual identity, so that's the thing 994 00:49:48,420 --> 00:49:50,944 about being homosexual, the underwear 995 00:49:50,988 --> 00:49:53,512 on the head, all that sort of stuff. 996 00:49:53,555 --> 00:49:55,340 - People were saying Arabs really 997 00:49:55,383 --> 00:49:57,907 are very sensitive to sexual humiliation 998 00:49:57,951 --> 00:49:59,605 well, who the hell isn't sensitive 999 00:49:59,648 --> 00:50:01,781 to sexual humiliation, nobody wants 1000 00:50:01,824 --> 00:50:03,087 to be stripped down naked and forced 1001 00:50:03,130 --> 00:50:04,784 to masturbate with a hood over your head. 1002 00:50:04,827 --> 00:50:05,741 It's ridiculous. 1003 00:50:06,916 --> 00:50:08,657 - Then they created behavioral science 1004 00:50:08,701 --> 00:50:10,050 consultation teams where they had 1005 00:50:10,094 --> 00:50:11,878 military psychologists integrated 1006 00:50:11,921 --> 00:50:13,662 into the ongoing interrogation 1007 00:50:13,706 --> 00:50:17,014 to discover individual fears and phobias 1008 00:50:18,319 --> 00:50:20,974 and all of that was visited on al-Qahtani. 1009 00:50:22,236 --> 00:50:23,846 - You are aware of communications 1010 00:50:23,890 --> 00:50:25,761 between General Miller and Secretary Rumsfeld 1011 00:50:25,805 --> 00:50:28,808 specifically about this one prisoner? 1012 00:50:28,851 --> 00:50:31,289 - To our knowledge, there was considerable 1013 00:50:31,332 --> 00:50:33,639 manner of communication up and down the chain. 1014 00:50:37,686 --> 00:50:39,601 - As you know from General Schmidt's report 1015 00:50:39,645 --> 00:50:41,386 he concluded that these techniques 1016 00:50:41,429 --> 00:50:44,084 individually did not constitute torture 1017 00:50:44,128 --> 00:50:46,086 but he said that the sum of these techniques. 1018 00:50:46,130 --> 00:50:48,219 - The cumulative effects of simultaneous 1019 00:50:48,262 --> 00:50:50,482 applications of numerous authorized 1020 00:50:50,525 --> 00:50:52,223 techniques had abusive and degrading 1021 00:50:52,266 --> 00:50:54,051 impact on the detainee. 1022 00:50:54,094 --> 00:50:56,879 - And he recommended that General Miller be disciplined. 1023 00:50:59,534 --> 00:51:01,928 But he said it did not constitute torture. 1024 00:51:01,971 --> 00:51:03,625 - We made a distinction between 1025 00:51:03,669 --> 00:51:05,975 what torture and inhuman treatment 1026 00:51:06,019 --> 00:51:07,890 would be given the general guidelines 1027 00:51:07,934 --> 00:51:10,719 and then what might be abusive and degrading 1028 00:51:10,763 --> 00:51:12,808 something might be degrading but not 1029 00:51:12,852 --> 00:51:14,593 necessarily torture and it may not 1030 00:51:14,636 --> 00:51:17,335 be inhumane, it may be humiliating 1031 00:51:17,378 --> 00:51:20,033 but it may not be torture, no torture 1032 00:51:20,077 --> 00:51:22,166 no physical pain, injury, there was a safe 1033 00:51:22,209 --> 00:51:24,298 secure environment the entire time. 1034 00:51:25,430 --> 00:51:27,171 - And that, of course, is the genius 1035 00:51:27,214 --> 00:51:29,695 of the CIA's psychological paradigm. 1036 00:51:29,738 --> 00:51:31,305 Psychological torture is all a matter 1037 00:51:31,349 --> 00:51:35,875 of definitions and then it's a very slippery indeed. 1038 00:51:35,918 --> 00:51:37,224 - That sounds remarkably similar 1039 00:51:37,268 --> 00:51:39,835 to what occurred at Abu Ghraib, 1040 00:51:39,879 --> 00:51:42,011 people being led around in chains 1041 00:51:42,055 --> 00:51:44,101 people being forced to wear lingerie, 1042 00:51:45,276 --> 00:51:47,800 perhaps a coincidence, perhaps not. 1043 00:51:50,107 --> 00:51:51,847 - If you look at those Abu Ghraib photographs 1044 00:51:51,891 --> 00:51:53,980 again, it's always the same techniques. 1045 00:51:54,023 --> 00:51:55,982 First of all, there's the sexual activity 1046 00:51:56,025 --> 00:51:58,593 with the women's garments and the masturbation 1047 00:51:58,637 --> 00:52:01,683 and all the rest, that's the cultural sensitivity. 1048 00:52:01,727 --> 00:52:03,685 They're short shackled, they're long-shackled 1049 00:52:03,729 --> 00:52:05,470 they're shackled upside down. 1050 00:52:05,513 --> 00:52:07,863 These are stress positions. 1051 00:52:07,907 --> 00:52:10,431 The most famous of all Abu Ghraib photographs 1052 00:52:10,475 --> 00:52:13,260 of course of that hooded Iraqi standing 1053 00:52:13,304 --> 00:52:16,742 on a box arms outstretched, he's told 1054 00:52:16,785 --> 00:52:18,570 that if he steps off the box, if he moves, 1055 00:52:18,613 --> 00:52:20,398 he'll be electrocuted, that's the point 1056 00:52:20,441 --> 00:52:23,531 of the fake electrical wires, so it's the absolute 1057 00:52:23,575 --> 00:52:25,229 immobility for protract appearance 1058 00:52:25,272 --> 00:52:28,971 and then with arms extended, as we'd say 1059 00:52:29,015 --> 00:52:30,669 to viewers, don't they this at home 1060 00:52:30,712 --> 00:52:34,368 but do try it, just stand for 10 minutes 1061 00:52:34,412 --> 00:52:37,154 with your arms stretched out, not moving. 1062 00:52:38,720 --> 00:52:40,331 - Carolyn Wood was an example 1063 00:52:40,374 --> 00:52:43,203 of the way new techniques spread and mutated 1064 00:52:43,247 --> 00:52:46,772 like a virus, long before Wood took charge 1065 00:52:46,815 --> 00:52:49,209 of interrogation at Abu Ghraib, her unit 1066 00:52:49,253 --> 00:52:51,646 was involved with harsh techniques at Bagram 1067 00:52:51,690 --> 00:52:54,301 including stress positions, forced standing, 1068 00:52:54,345 --> 00:52:56,129 and sleep deprivation. 1069 00:52:56,173 --> 00:52:58,479 - One of the memorandums shows that in early 1070 00:52:58,523 --> 00:53:00,786 December 2002, the interrogators 1071 00:53:00,829 --> 00:53:03,223 at Bagram just looked on the internet 1072 00:53:03,267 --> 00:53:04,181 they're in touch with the guys 1073 00:53:04,224 --> 00:53:05,921 at Guantanamo and they leaned 1074 00:53:05,965 --> 00:53:08,228 that these guys at Guantanamo had gotten 1075 00:53:08,272 --> 00:53:10,796 new techniques from the Secretary of Defense 1076 00:53:10,839 --> 00:53:12,014 and they just started using them, 1077 00:53:12,058 --> 00:53:13,538 even though the techniques had clearly 1078 00:53:13,581 --> 00:53:17,237 been approved exclusively for use at Guantanamo. 1079 00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,328 - When General Miller himself traveled 1080 00:53:21,372 --> 00:53:24,984 from Guantanamo to Iraq in August 2003, 1081 00:53:25,027 --> 00:53:27,291 he brought with him a CD and a manual 1082 00:53:27,334 --> 00:53:29,249 on the advanced techniques they developed 1083 00:53:29,293 --> 00:53:31,077 at Guantanamo and he gave them 1084 00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,384 to General Sanchez's command. 1085 00:53:33,427 --> 00:53:36,604 So there are these multiple paths that you 1086 00:53:36,648 --> 00:53:40,129 can trace whereby these interrogation techniques 1087 00:53:40,173 --> 00:53:42,088 go through this global migration 1088 00:53:42,131 --> 00:53:45,091 through Afghanistan to Iraq from Guantanamo 1089 00:53:45,134 --> 00:53:48,660 directly to Iraq and that result is Abu Ghraib. 1090 00:53:52,533 --> 00:53:54,405 - Well before the abuses at Abu Ghraib 1091 00:53:54,448 --> 00:53:56,668 became public, Government officials 1092 00:53:56,711 --> 00:53:58,713 had been quietly raising concerns 1093 00:53:58,757 --> 00:54:01,586 about harsh techniques in use at Guantanamo. 1094 00:54:02,761 --> 00:54:04,937 - There were emails back to the Department 1095 00:54:04,980 --> 00:54:06,895 of Justice from FBI personnel down 1096 00:54:06,939 --> 00:54:09,898 at Guantanamo, saying you won't believe 1097 00:54:09,942 --> 00:54:12,074 what's going on down here, we've gotta 1098 00:54:12,118 --> 00:54:14,947 disassociate ourselves as FBI people 1099 00:54:14,990 --> 00:54:18,559 from what is going on here in Guantanamo. 1100 00:54:18,603 --> 00:54:21,301 This email says, "The DOD has their marching 1101 00:54:21,345 --> 00:54:23,434 "orders from the Secretary of Defense." 1102 00:54:24,739 --> 00:54:27,394 Marching orders from the Secretary of Defense. 1103 00:54:27,438 --> 00:54:29,918 "To engage in practices which the FBI 1104 00:54:29,962 --> 00:54:33,879 "finds to be deeply offensive and dangerous." 1105 00:54:33,922 --> 00:54:37,970 But the emails are what is called redacted 1106 00:54:38,013 --> 00:54:40,712 which means that there's big holes 1107 00:54:40,755 --> 00:54:43,715 in these emails, now some of the emails 1108 00:54:43,758 --> 00:54:45,238 are totally redacted, so we don't know 1109 00:54:45,282 --> 00:54:47,066 what they say at all, that's an example 1110 00:54:47,109 --> 00:54:50,809 a lot of the documents that we got here. 1111 00:54:50,852 --> 00:54:54,334 You know, you can't see anything on these documents. 1112 00:54:54,378 --> 00:54:57,206 One after another of where there's nothing. 1113 00:55:04,823 --> 00:55:08,174 - In early December 2002, I had heard 1114 00:55:08,217 --> 00:55:10,785 that there was detainee abuse going on. 1115 00:55:10,829 --> 00:55:12,657 I called the Army General Counsel and asked 1116 00:55:12,700 --> 00:55:14,702 him whether he had any information, 1117 00:55:14,746 --> 00:55:16,313 I said I'm receiving reports that some detainees 1118 00:55:16,356 --> 00:55:17,488 are being abused in Guantanamo, 1119 00:55:17,531 --> 00:55:19,141 do you know anything about this? 1120 00:55:19,185 --> 00:55:21,709 And his response back was I know a lot 1121 00:55:21,753 --> 00:55:23,798 about it, come on down to my office. 1122 00:55:23,842 --> 00:55:25,800 They pushed a stack of documents 1123 00:55:25,844 --> 00:55:29,587 across the desk, top document was a memorandum 1124 00:55:29,630 --> 00:55:31,197 from the General Counsel to Department 1125 00:55:31,240 --> 00:55:33,591 of Defense to Secretary Rumsfeld 1126 00:55:33,634 --> 00:55:35,157 and it was that cover memo that requested 1127 00:55:35,201 --> 00:55:37,029 the authorization for the application 1128 00:55:37,072 --> 00:55:39,161 of certain interrogation techniques 1129 00:55:39,205 --> 00:55:41,729 and the top memo gave Secretary Rumsfeld's 1130 00:55:41,773 --> 00:55:42,817 approval for the application of 1131 00:55:42,861 --> 00:55:44,079 some of those techniques. 1132 00:55:45,254 --> 00:55:46,952 It's the memo with Secretary Rumsfeld's 1133 00:55:46,995 --> 00:55:48,780 handwritten notations on the bottom 1134 00:55:48,823 --> 00:55:50,738 that he stands 8-10 hours a day, 1135 00:55:50,782 --> 00:55:52,871 how come these detainees are only 1136 00:55:52,914 --> 00:55:54,873 required to stand up to four hours a day. 1137 00:55:56,135 --> 00:55:57,919 I was astounded, but my first reaction was 1138 00:55:57,963 --> 00:56:00,182 that this was a mistake, somebody just 1139 00:56:00,226 --> 00:56:03,664 didn't read the documents carefully enough. 1140 00:56:04,970 --> 00:56:06,885 - I think people in the Pentagon thought of 1141 00:56:06,928 --> 00:56:10,279 Alberto Mora as a loyal Republican 1142 00:56:10,323 --> 00:56:12,456 political appointee, he would never 1143 00:56:12,499 --> 00:56:14,849 have been considered a rabble rouser 1144 00:56:14,893 --> 00:56:18,418 or a liberal, he said he expected 1145 00:56:18,462 --> 00:56:22,248 that he would raise these issues 1146 00:56:22,291 --> 00:56:24,642 and people in positions of authority 1147 00:56:24,685 --> 00:56:26,905 would say oh, thanks for letting us know 1148 00:56:26,948 --> 00:56:28,385 and that would be the end of it. 1149 00:56:29,473 --> 00:56:31,083 - I wanted to ask you about a memo 1150 00:56:31,126 --> 00:56:33,433 that was written by Alberto Mora. 1151 00:56:33,477 --> 00:56:35,304 Do you recall in this memo that you wrote 1152 00:56:35,348 --> 00:56:36,958 a little notation at the bottom about 1153 00:56:37,002 --> 00:56:38,873 standing more than four hours. 1154 00:56:38,917 --> 00:56:40,309 - I do. - Because you stand at your 1155 00:56:40,353 --> 00:56:41,615 desk. - I do. 1156 00:56:41,659 --> 00:56:43,182 - This attorney argued that that could be 1157 00:56:43,225 --> 00:56:46,577 interpreted as some by a wink and a nod 1158 00:56:46,620 --> 00:56:48,100 that it would be okay to go beyond the 1159 00:56:48,143 --> 00:56:52,191 techniques that were prescribed in the memo. 1160 00:56:52,234 --> 00:56:54,019 - No, no no, it did, there's no wink and a nod 1161 00:56:54,062 --> 00:56:56,413 about anything, there was one provision 1162 00:56:56,456 --> 00:56:59,241 in there that they would have people stand 1163 00:56:59,285 --> 00:57:02,593 for several hours and it was a semi-humorous 1164 00:57:02,636 --> 00:57:05,857 remark that a person in his seventies 1165 00:57:05,900 --> 00:57:09,034 stands all day long, I just mused that 1166 00:57:09,077 --> 00:57:10,862 and maybe it shouldn't have gone out 1167 00:57:10,905 --> 00:57:14,648 but it did and I wrote it, and life goes on. 1168 00:57:14,692 --> 00:57:16,128 - But his point was that you should 1169 00:57:16,171 --> 00:57:18,260 have gotten much better advice from 1170 00:57:18,304 --> 00:57:19,653 your legal staff. - I heard your question 1171 00:57:19,697 --> 00:57:22,264 the first time. - What was of concern to me 1172 00:57:22,308 --> 00:57:24,223 was the techniques either individual 1173 00:57:24,266 --> 00:57:27,226 or in combination could rise to the level or torture. 1174 00:57:27,269 --> 00:57:28,836 Okay, you're permitting certain interrogation 1175 00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:30,577 techniques but certainly there must be 1176 00:57:30,621 --> 00:57:33,841 some limit which is set upon the severity 1177 00:57:33,885 --> 00:57:36,583 of the techniques, light deprivation could mean 1178 00:57:36,627 --> 00:57:38,455 placing the detainee in a dark room 1179 00:57:38,498 --> 00:57:40,892 for 15 minutes or it could mean a month 1180 00:57:40,935 --> 00:57:43,329 or two months or three months until he goes blind. 1181 00:57:44,417 --> 00:57:47,072 Detainee specific phobia techniques. 1182 00:57:47,115 --> 00:57:49,509 The snakes, the bats, the rats, lock somebody 1183 00:57:49,553 --> 00:57:51,076 up in a coffin, you're limited only 1184 00:57:51,119 --> 00:57:53,513 by your imagination, any one of these techniques 1185 00:57:53,557 --> 00:57:56,385 individually could yield the results of torture 1186 00:57:56,429 --> 00:57:58,083 certainly in combination, you could 1187 00:57:58,126 --> 00:57:59,998 reach that fairly quickly. 1188 00:58:00,041 --> 00:58:02,609 - See, if you put a person into this procedure 1189 00:58:02,653 --> 00:58:04,219 and keep em there for more than the six 1190 00:58:04,263 --> 00:58:06,744 or eight days that I would think might be 1191 00:58:06,787 --> 00:58:09,311 the maximum tolerability, then the price 1192 00:58:09,355 --> 00:58:11,313 is pretty high. - The price is someone's 1193 00:58:11,357 --> 00:58:13,533 sanity. - Presumably it could be. 1194 00:58:14,795 --> 00:58:16,884 - The medical literature had a phenomenon 1195 00:58:16,928 --> 00:58:18,669 known as force drift that made it 1196 00:58:18,712 --> 00:58:20,888 almost inevitable that the interrogators 1197 00:58:20,932 --> 00:58:22,760 would continue applying greater and greater 1198 00:58:22,803 --> 00:58:25,893 increments of force to achieve their desired results. 1199 00:58:25,937 --> 00:58:28,243 - For example, take Secretary Rumsfeld's memo 1200 00:58:28,287 --> 00:58:30,115 then to say that well look, he said 1201 00:58:30,158 --> 00:58:32,770 that dogs have to be mizzled, well that's a man 1202 00:58:32,813 --> 00:58:36,077 who doesn't understand the military on the ground 1203 00:58:36,121 --> 00:58:38,036 because when that E-6 is sitting there 1204 00:58:38,079 --> 00:58:40,647 with that muzzled dog and there's absolutely 1205 00:58:40,691 --> 00:58:43,998 no impact on that person being interrogated 1206 00:58:44,042 --> 00:58:45,522 he's gonna take that muzzle off. 1207 00:58:46,610 --> 00:58:49,134 That's reality, that's human nature. 1208 00:58:51,223 --> 00:58:52,485 - Alberto Mora threatened 1209 00:58:52,529 --> 00:58:54,313 to go on record with his concerns 1210 00:58:54,356 --> 00:58:57,664 unless the techniques were rescinded. 1211 00:58:57,708 --> 00:59:00,319 - When after the fact it turns out 1212 00:59:00,362 --> 00:59:01,799 that there's concern about it that 1213 00:59:01,842 --> 00:59:05,237 concerns me then I'm happy to rescind it 1214 00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:06,630 and take another fresh look at it 1215 00:59:06,673 --> 00:59:08,327 and talk to more people about it 1216 00:59:08,370 --> 00:59:10,155 and see what ought to be done. 1217 00:59:10,198 --> 00:59:11,504 - To his credit, Secretary Rumsfeld 1218 00:59:11,548 --> 00:59:13,593 did rescind the interrogation techniques 1219 00:59:13,637 --> 00:59:15,290 and then for over a year and a half 1220 00:59:15,334 --> 00:59:17,075 I heard no reports from any quarter 1221 00:59:17,118 --> 00:59:19,120 about detainee abuse anywhere. 1222 00:59:26,998 --> 00:59:30,392 When Abu Ghraib hit, my first thought was 1223 00:59:30,436 --> 00:59:34,048 have I been circumvented, have their been 1224 00:59:34,092 --> 00:59:36,660 authorizations for the abuse of prisoners 1225 00:59:36,703 --> 00:59:38,400 that I had not learned about? 1226 00:59:41,621 --> 00:59:44,102 - Had the orders really been rescinded? 1227 00:59:46,408 --> 00:59:48,454 According to interrogators, the use 1228 00:59:48,497 --> 00:59:51,022 of shackling, dogs, stress positions 1229 00:59:51,065 --> 00:59:54,242 and sensory assault continued to be widespread. 1230 00:59:56,375 --> 00:59:58,072 Tony Lagouranis was an interrogator 1231 00:59:58,116 --> 01:00:00,684 who arrived in Iraq after the military 1232 01:00:00,727 --> 01:00:03,164 became aware of the abuses at Abu Ghraib. 1233 01:00:04,470 --> 01:00:06,428 - Among the interrogation guidelines 1234 01:00:06,472 --> 01:00:08,430 they gave us it said that dogs are authorized 1235 01:00:08,474 --> 01:00:10,519 to be used on detainees, you know, 1236 01:00:10,563 --> 01:00:13,087 stress positions, sleep deprivation, 1237 01:00:13,131 --> 01:00:15,089 all of those things that I did that 1238 01:00:15,133 --> 01:00:17,352 I would consider harsh techniques 1239 01:00:17,396 --> 01:00:19,485 were violating the Geneva Conventions 1240 01:00:19,528 --> 01:00:22,270 I was told to do, we were told to do that 1241 01:00:22,314 --> 01:00:24,229 to these people by our superiors. 1242 01:00:26,884 --> 01:00:30,235 - The spine of the United States Armed Forces 1243 01:00:30,278 --> 01:00:32,454 is the chain of command, what starts 1244 01:00:32,498 --> 01:00:33,717 at the top of the chain of command 1245 01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:36,545 drops like a rock down the chain of command 1246 01:00:36,589 --> 01:00:39,157 and that's why Lynndie England knew 1247 01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:41,289 what Donald Rumsfeld was thinking 1248 01:00:41,333 --> 01:00:43,552 without actually talking to Donald Rumsfeld. 1249 01:00:46,381 --> 01:00:48,296 - In the wake of Abu Ghraib, 1250 01:00:48,340 --> 01:00:49,776 journalists began to look harder 1251 01:00:49,820 --> 01:00:52,605 at previous cases of abuse to try 1252 01:00:52,649 --> 01:00:54,825 to understand what had caused them 1253 01:00:54,868 --> 01:00:56,217 and who was responsible. 1254 01:00:58,655 --> 01:01:00,569 - People like Tim Golden at the New York Times 1255 01:01:00,613 --> 01:01:02,093 got a hold of it and started looking 1256 01:01:02,136 --> 01:01:03,703 at the case of Dilawar in particular, 1257 01:01:03,747 --> 01:01:07,533 the taxi driver, it became at least 1258 01:01:07,576 --> 01:01:09,622 plausible to me that this man 1259 01:01:09,666 --> 01:01:11,058 wasn't even guilty of anything 1260 01:01:11,102 --> 01:01:12,799 other than being there when the sweep occurred 1261 01:01:12,843 --> 01:01:16,107 and here was a guy who was murdered in detention. 1262 01:01:28,293 --> 01:01:29,860 - Pay tribute to those whose lives 1263 01:01:29,903 --> 01:01:32,340 were taken and those who daily give 1264 01:01:32,384 --> 01:01:34,342 unselfishly of themselves. 1265 01:01:34,386 --> 01:01:37,998 Four years ago, our nation came under attack. 1266 01:01:38,042 --> 01:01:40,261 - 9/11 was very much in the air and I think 1267 01:01:40,305 --> 01:01:42,394 the officers tried to keep it in the air 1268 01:01:42,437 --> 01:01:43,874 they tried to remind these kids 1269 01:01:43,917 --> 01:01:45,789 that these people are our enemies. 1270 01:01:47,051 --> 01:01:49,183 But it's hard to see how these young soldiers 1271 01:01:49,227 --> 01:01:50,707 could have been expected to figure out 1272 01:01:50,750 --> 01:01:52,926 who the real enemies were among a bunch 1273 01:01:52,970 --> 01:01:55,624 of militia men and farmers in a society 1274 01:01:55,668 --> 01:01:57,452 that was completely foreign to them. 1275 01:02:01,674 --> 01:02:03,545 - If I remember correctly, his story 1276 01:02:03,589 --> 01:02:05,939 had something to do with the rocket attack 1277 01:02:05,983 --> 01:02:08,637 on a military base and he was supposed 1278 01:02:08,681 --> 01:02:11,292 to be the driver of the getaway car. 1279 01:02:11,336 --> 01:02:13,599 - He had taken his new car, which he 1280 01:02:13,642 --> 01:02:15,340 was obviously excited about and driven 1281 01:02:15,383 --> 01:02:18,212 to Khost, the provincial capital where 1282 01:02:18,256 --> 01:02:20,780 he went to look for taxi passengers 1283 01:02:20,824 --> 01:02:23,217 and he in fact found these three men 1284 01:02:23,261 --> 01:02:25,611 in Khost at the market place who were headed 1285 01:02:25,654 --> 01:02:28,005 back to Yakubi. - Yakubi, Yakubi! 1286 01:02:30,834 --> 01:02:32,879 - You have to imagine that Dilawar 1287 01:02:32,923 --> 01:02:36,883 was driving home from this provincial capital 1288 01:02:36,927 --> 01:02:40,104 which was about as far as his world stretched 1289 01:02:40,147 --> 01:02:43,803 he is stopped at Fire Base Salerno 1290 01:02:43,847 --> 01:02:46,023 by a group of Afghan militia men 1291 01:02:46,066 --> 01:02:47,981 and the men apparently found an 1292 01:02:48,025 --> 01:02:50,157 electric stabilizer in the trunk 1293 01:02:50,201 --> 01:02:52,551 of the car, at least they claimed to. 1294 01:02:52,594 --> 01:02:55,206 Camp Salerno had been rocketed 1295 01:02:55,249 --> 01:02:57,861 from some distance earlier in the day 1296 01:02:57,904 --> 01:03:00,820 and the Afghan militia men immediately 1297 01:03:00,864 --> 01:03:03,040 arrested the four guys on suspicion 1298 01:03:03,083 --> 01:03:05,346 of having had some involvement in that attack. 1299 01:03:07,435 --> 01:03:11,309 He's taken to Bagram, this great distance away. 1300 01:03:11,352 --> 01:03:13,398 You get a bunch of guys who are back 1301 01:03:13,441 --> 01:03:15,617 at this detention site and they're told 1302 01:03:15,661 --> 01:03:17,445 we have evidence that they have been 1303 01:03:17,489 --> 01:03:20,448 involved in a rocket attack on American forces 1304 01:03:20,492 --> 01:03:23,582 so I think that kinda tripped a wire in them. 1305 01:03:25,323 --> 01:03:27,542 - You're in this atmosphere, you're with 1306 01:03:27,586 --> 01:03:29,849 nothing but military people and you feel 1307 01:03:29,893 --> 01:03:32,417 sort of morally isolated and you lose 1308 01:03:32,460 --> 01:03:34,854 your moral bearings and you're frustrated 1309 01:03:34,898 --> 01:03:36,160 because you're not getting intelligence 1310 01:03:36,203 --> 01:03:38,379 from a prisoner that you believe is guilty 1311 01:03:38,423 --> 01:03:39,728 and has intelligence to give you 1312 01:03:39,772 --> 01:03:41,382 and so of course you wanna start 1313 01:03:41,426 --> 01:03:42,819 pushing the limits and you wanna see 1314 01:03:42,862 --> 01:03:43,689 how far you can go. 1315 01:03:45,038 --> 01:03:47,475 - A lot of the pressure came from the fact that 1316 01:03:48,999 --> 01:03:51,653 we had a few high value detainees 1317 01:03:51,697 --> 01:03:55,614 that gave a lot of good information and 1318 01:03:55,657 --> 01:03:57,572 when we started to lose those detainees 1319 01:03:57,616 --> 01:04:00,140 due to going to Guantanamo Bay, 1320 01:04:00,184 --> 01:04:03,100 that they expected this to come from everybody. 1321 01:04:03,143 --> 01:04:06,364 - We would interrogate some of these guys 1322 01:04:06,407 --> 01:04:09,019 just to interrogate em and it was ridiculous 1323 01:04:09,062 --> 01:04:10,498 I meant you'd get some of these guys in 1324 01:04:10,542 --> 01:04:13,632 and you're like this is the wrong man 1325 01:04:13,675 --> 01:04:15,939 this is not who we're supposed to have 1326 01:04:15,982 --> 01:04:17,462 especially being a screener, you could tell 1327 01:04:17,505 --> 01:04:18,898 from the moment you got em in, you're like 1328 01:04:18,942 --> 01:04:20,857 we're not supposed to have em. 1329 01:04:21,901 --> 01:04:24,904 - We had one prisoner came in, he was mentally 1330 01:04:24,948 --> 01:04:29,300 challenged and Sergeant Loring kept saying 1331 01:04:29,343 --> 01:04:32,346 that you know, this is a cover, 1332 01:04:32,390 --> 01:04:34,348 this is Al-Qaeda's cover, it's what they do 1333 01:04:34,392 --> 01:04:38,265 and I went in there and talked to him and 1334 01:04:41,181 --> 01:04:43,227 basically they had this guy in a diaper 1335 01:04:45,316 --> 01:04:47,579 he ate his own feces but Loring 1336 01:04:47,622 --> 01:04:48,885 kept saying it was an act. 1337 01:04:49,973 --> 01:04:51,191 - They'd be like hey, we want you 1338 01:04:51,235 --> 01:04:53,193 go yell at this guy, so I'd grab 1339 01:04:53,237 --> 01:04:54,978 my box of Frosted Flakes that I was 1340 01:04:55,021 --> 01:04:56,283 eating for breakfast that morning<, 1341 01:04:56,327 --> 01:04:57,676 I'd go into the room and I'd be like 1342 01:04:57,719 --> 01:04:59,112 all right, I have to yell at you today 1343 01:04:59,156 --> 01:05:03,334 so I'd be like, dyhoginated salt substitute 1344 01:05:03,377 --> 01:05:04,813 and just start yelling that at him 1345 01:05:04,857 --> 01:05:06,728 and they'd look at me all crazy 1346 01:05:06,772 --> 01:05:09,296 and I'd be like yeah, it's your fault 1347 01:05:09,340 --> 01:05:11,559 they put that in my cereal now. 1348 01:05:11,603 --> 01:05:13,953 Or I'd yell at him if Elvis was really 1349 01:05:13,997 --> 01:05:15,650 the King of Rock or if he was dead 1350 01:05:15,694 --> 01:05:16,956 or stuff like that and I'd write that 1351 01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:18,740 in my interrogation summaries and I'd send 1352 01:05:18,784 --> 01:05:20,394 that up to higher that that's what I did 1353 01:05:20,438 --> 01:05:22,005 for that two hours. 1354 01:05:22,048 --> 01:05:23,963 - you really can't get a feel for a person 1355 01:05:24,007 --> 01:05:26,661 till after you talk to em a couple of times. 1356 01:05:26,705 --> 01:05:28,315 So on the first three times I talked 1357 01:05:28,359 --> 01:05:30,274 to him it was just verifying his story 1358 01:05:30,317 --> 01:05:33,059 looking for loops, looking for holes. 1359 01:05:33,103 --> 01:05:34,713 After the third time I talked to him 1360 01:05:34,756 --> 01:05:36,845 and his story was still consistent 1361 01:05:36,889 --> 01:05:39,587 I kept telling em I thought he was innocent. 1362 01:05:39,631 --> 01:05:41,067 - And they wanted these people 1363 01:05:41,111 --> 01:05:42,982 to be guilty because that would 1364 01:05:43,026 --> 01:05:44,070 look better for their unit. 1365 01:05:44,114 --> 01:05:45,550 They could say that we arrested 1366 01:05:45,593 --> 01:05:48,509 60 people this month and they were all terrorists. 1367 01:05:48,553 --> 01:05:50,337 - When was the last time you saw Osama Bin Laden 1368 01:05:50,381 --> 01:05:51,730 when was the last time you saw Mullah Omar 1369 01:05:51,773 --> 01:05:53,123 now this was a standard question 1370 01:05:53,166 --> 01:05:55,560 that was asked of every detainee. 1371 01:05:55,603 --> 01:05:57,388 - It's very hard to go into an interrogation 1372 01:05:57,431 --> 01:05:59,129 with very little evidence and we almost never 1373 01:05:59,172 --> 01:06:01,000 had evidence on these guys, end elicit 1374 01:06:01,044 --> 01:06:03,524 a confession, you can go in and get intelligence 1375 01:06:03,568 --> 01:06:05,744 but if you're asking this guy to completely 1376 01:06:05,787 --> 01:06:07,964 incriminate himself, it's very difficult 1377 01:06:08,007 --> 01:06:09,791 so you have to start using harsher 1378 01:06:09,835 --> 01:06:11,010 and harsher techniques in order 1379 01:06:11,054 --> 01:06:12,925 to elicit that confession. 1380 01:06:14,361 --> 01:06:16,581 - I was yelled at for being too nice to him 1381 01:06:16,624 --> 01:06:18,539 by Sergeant Loring, that i needed 1382 01:06:18,583 --> 01:06:20,454 to put more pressure on him, or as he liked 1383 01:06:20,498 --> 01:06:23,022 to say, I need to take him out of his comfort zone. 1384 01:06:27,113 --> 01:06:29,159 - After a while, particularly in the fourth 1385 01:06:29,202 --> 01:06:32,553 and fifth interrogations, as the sleep deprivation 1386 01:06:32,597 --> 01:06:35,469 that he was being subjected to really started 1387 01:06:35,513 --> 01:06:40,561 to knock him out, the interrogations got more intense. 1388 01:06:40,605 --> 01:06:43,434 Sergeant Salcedo who was an inexperienced 1389 01:06:43,477 --> 01:06:46,480 interrogator but a can-do soldier 1390 01:06:46,524 --> 01:06:48,613 had this man who refused to look at her 1391 01:06:48,656 --> 01:06:50,919 because she was a woman, she said she got 1392 01:06:50,963 --> 01:06:52,747 very frustrated by this and grabbed him 1393 01:06:52,791 --> 01:06:54,793 by the sides of face and turned him 1394 01:06:54,836 --> 01:06:57,752 to face her and look at her and take her 1395 01:06:57,796 --> 01:07:02,714 seriously but of course, he was a Afghan man 1396 01:07:02,757 --> 01:07:05,543 from a tribal, conservative culture 1397 01:07:05,586 --> 01:07:07,893 who didn't look at strange women. 1398 01:07:09,286 --> 01:07:11,418 - Sergeant Salcedo's getting a little aggravated 1399 01:07:11,462 --> 01:07:13,942 so I kinda stepped between em 1400 01:07:13,986 --> 01:07:16,771 and that's when I grabbed him by the shirt 1401 01:07:16,815 --> 01:07:19,078 and I brought him over to the wall. 1402 01:07:19,122 --> 01:07:20,558 - They tried to make him stand up 1403 01:07:20,601 --> 01:07:22,690 against the wall and he was sliding down 1404 01:07:22,734 --> 01:07:24,605 they pushed him back against the wall. 1405 01:07:24,649 --> 01:07:26,477 - He wasn't making any kinda sounds 1406 01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:29,262 most of it seemed to just be rambling. 1407 01:07:30,394 --> 01:07:32,744 The interpreter was telling me that 1408 01:07:32,787 --> 01:07:35,225 his wife came to visit him in his cell 1409 01:07:36,487 --> 01:07:39,142 which of course didn't happen. 1410 01:07:41,187 --> 01:07:42,710 - If you've ever seen anybody 1411 01:07:42,754 --> 01:07:46,845 sleep depped, past two days they begin 1412 01:07:46,888 --> 01:07:48,586 to just be bumbling idiots. 1413 01:07:50,283 --> 01:07:52,416 Three days they're just worthless. 1414 01:07:53,460 --> 01:07:54,940 - I knew something was wrong. 1415 01:07:56,159 --> 01:07:58,335 The next thing I heard was that he'd died. 1416 01:08:01,294 --> 01:08:03,688 - Not long after Dilawar was killed 1417 01:08:03,731 --> 01:08:06,560 we learned that the Afghan guerrilla commander 1418 01:08:06,604 --> 01:08:08,910 who's men had arrested Dilawar and the others 1419 01:08:08,954 --> 01:08:12,784 had in fact been detained by the Americans himself 1420 01:08:12,827 --> 01:08:14,873 and it turned out that he was rocketing 1421 01:08:14,916 --> 01:08:17,223 their base and then picking up 1422 01:08:17,267 --> 01:08:19,225 innocent Afghans and turning them over 1423 01:08:19,269 --> 01:08:20,661 to the Americans, essentially to try 1424 01:08:20,705 --> 01:08:23,534 to ingratiate himself with the US Forces. 1425 01:08:26,841 --> 01:08:29,366 The three passengers were sent to Guantanamo 1426 01:08:29,409 --> 01:08:33,370 and they didn't get out until March of 2004 1427 01:08:33,413 --> 01:08:36,634 which was 15 months after they had been captured 1428 01:08:36,677 --> 01:08:37,852 riding in the taxi. 1429 01:08:41,029 --> 01:08:44,163 It's hard to know what reason the Americans 1430 01:08:44,207 --> 01:08:46,078 would have had to send these guys on 1431 01:08:46,122 --> 01:08:49,777 when they had quite clearly concluded 1432 01:08:49,821 --> 01:08:53,216 that Dilawar at least was an innocent man 1433 01:08:53,259 --> 01:08:54,391 when he was killed. 1434 01:08:57,655 --> 01:08:59,657 It certainly makes you wonder about 1435 01:08:59,700 --> 01:09:04,357 whether they just sent these guys on to cover their butts. 1436 01:09:10,537 --> 01:09:13,236 - These are not mere innocents 1437 01:09:13,279 --> 01:09:15,412 these are among the worst of the worst. 1438 01:09:15,455 --> 01:09:17,979 These are among the most dangerous 1439 01:09:19,459 --> 01:09:23,724 best trained, vicious killers on the face of the Earth. 1440 01:09:23,768 --> 01:09:25,378 - They're terrorists, they're bomb makers 1441 01:09:25,422 --> 01:09:27,424 their facilitators of terror, they're members 1442 01:09:27,467 --> 01:09:29,513 of Al-Qaeda, the Taliban. 1443 01:09:29,556 --> 01:09:30,992 - And if they were free, they would 1444 01:09:31,036 --> 01:09:32,603 engage in murder once again. 1445 01:09:32,646 --> 01:09:33,865 - The only thing I know for certain 1446 01:09:33,908 --> 01:09:35,345 is that these are bad people. 1447 01:09:36,084 --> 01:09:38,478 - Despite Rumsfeld and Cheney's 1448 01:09:38,522 --> 01:09:40,306 and President BUsh's allegations that 1449 01:09:40,350 --> 01:09:41,916 these guys are the worst of the worst 1450 01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:43,788 that they were all captured on the battlefield 1451 01:09:43,831 --> 01:09:46,269 recent studies of the whole compendium 1452 01:09:46,312 --> 01:09:49,881 of Government's documents show that only 5% 1453 01:09:49,924 --> 01:09:52,275 of these people were picked up by the United States. 1454 01:09:52,318 --> 01:09:54,712 - Here search him. - Only 8% of them 1455 01:09:54,755 --> 01:09:57,410 are accused of being members of the Al-Qaeda. 1456 01:09:57,454 --> 01:09:59,282 Over 90% of them were picked up 1457 01:09:59,325 --> 01:10:02,372 by Northenalized or Pakistani forces 1458 01:10:02,415 --> 01:10:04,112 in exchange for bounties. 1459 01:10:04,156 --> 01:10:06,637 - We have large rewards out. 1460 01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:11,381 We have leaflets that are dropping like snowflakes 1461 01:10:11,424 --> 01:10:13,774 in December in Chicago. - Mr Secretary, 1462 01:10:13,818 --> 01:10:16,690 not a question. - An analysis of de-classified 1463 01:10:16,734 --> 01:10:18,997 government documents reveal that only 1464 01:10:19,040 --> 01:10:22,261 7% of Guantanamo detainees were captured 1465 01:10:22,305 --> 01:10:24,872 by US and Coalition forces. 1466 01:10:24,916 --> 01:10:28,441 The other 93% like Dilawar and his passengers 1467 01:10:28,485 --> 01:10:30,617 were turned over by Afghan warlords 1468 01:10:30,661 --> 01:10:34,273 and Pakistanis, sometimes for cash payments 1469 01:10:34,317 --> 01:10:36,057 of thousands of dollars. 1470 01:10:36,101 --> 01:10:38,277 - The military's not interested 1471 01:10:38,321 --> 01:10:41,193 in spending whatever it is, $40,000 a year 1472 01:10:41,237 --> 01:10:43,326 detaining people who are not members 1473 01:10:43,369 --> 01:10:46,807 of Al-Qaeda in Guantanamo Bay, it has as much interest 1474 01:10:46,851 --> 01:10:48,374 as everyone else does in making sure 1475 01:10:48,418 --> 01:10:49,854 the people who are detained are actually 1476 01:10:49,897 --> 01:10:51,638 members of Al-Qaeda rather than wasting 1477 01:10:51,682 --> 01:10:54,162 resources and time detaining innocent people. 1478 01:10:55,425 --> 01:10:57,731 - I think it's natural in times of war 1479 01:10:57,775 --> 01:11:00,168 to pick up people, you wanna pick up 1480 01:11:00,212 --> 01:11:02,170 anyone you suspect of being dangerous. 1481 01:11:02,214 --> 01:11:03,868 What's different here is the Government 1482 01:11:03,911 --> 01:11:05,696 for the first time in our history 1483 01:11:05,739 --> 01:11:08,133 didn't follow its own regulations 1484 01:11:08,176 --> 01:11:10,135 which require that a hearing be held 1485 01:11:10,178 --> 01:11:13,443 promptly after capture if there's any doubt. 1486 01:11:13,486 --> 01:11:16,141 - In the war in Afghanistan back in 2001 1487 01:11:16,184 --> 01:11:17,708 the US military was prepared to follow 1488 01:11:17,751 --> 01:11:19,144 the Geneva Conventions and conduct 1489 01:11:19,187 --> 01:11:21,059 those tribunals, unfortunately 1490 01:11:21,102 --> 01:11:22,365 the civilian leadership within the 1491 01:11:22,408 --> 01:11:25,150 Department of Defense told them to stop. 1492 01:11:25,193 --> 01:11:26,934 Once somebody in Afghanistan might have 1493 01:11:26,978 --> 01:11:29,633 said okay this person's a high value target 1494 01:11:29,676 --> 01:11:31,809 for whatever reason, whether it was based 1495 01:11:31,852 --> 01:11:34,159 on some other Afghani who hated 1496 01:11:34,202 --> 01:11:35,465 that person and wanted him out 1497 01:11:35,508 --> 01:11:37,684 so he could take over his opium crop 1498 01:11:37,728 --> 01:11:40,078 then that began the road to Gitmo 1499 01:11:40,121 --> 01:11:42,385 and there was no way for that person 1500 01:11:42,428 --> 01:11:45,301 to challenge it and there still hasn't been. 1501 01:11:48,042 --> 01:11:49,479 - Moazzam Begg, a British subject 1502 01:11:49,522 --> 01:11:52,133 suspected of ties to Al-Qaeda operatives 1503 01:11:52,177 --> 01:11:53,874 was picked up by local intelligence 1504 01:11:53,918 --> 01:11:55,746 agents in Pakistan. 1505 01:11:55,789 --> 01:11:58,662 - I was in my house in Islamabad at the time 1506 01:11:58,705 --> 01:12:00,794 when I was abducted, a hood was placed 1507 01:12:00,838 --> 01:12:03,449 over my head, my hands and legs were shackled 1508 01:12:03,493 --> 01:12:04,363 and I was physically carried into 1509 01:12:04,407 --> 01:12:05,321 the back of the vehicle. 1510 01:12:06,670 --> 01:12:08,759 I didn't see my family again after that point. 1511 01:12:09,977 --> 01:12:12,371 I was sent to Kandahar and then to Bagram 1512 01:12:12,415 --> 01:12:15,243 and when I was put onto the transport plane 1513 01:12:15,287 --> 01:12:18,464 to Guantanamo, I had already been covered 1514 01:12:18,508 --> 01:12:20,466 almost from head to toe in some sort 1515 01:12:20,510 --> 01:12:22,860 of a covering, face mask, earmuffs, 1516 01:12:22,903 --> 01:12:25,515 blackened goggles and then just in case 1517 01:12:25,558 --> 01:12:27,865 I could see anything, a hood to cover it with. 1518 01:12:28,909 --> 01:12:30,258 Being seated on the aircraft was 1519 01:12:30,302 --> 01:12:31,912 excruciatingly painful, they'd already 1520 01:12:31,956 --> 01:12:33,827 used now the three-piece-suit and that is 1521 01:12:33,871 --> 01:12:35,916 the shackle that goes around the waist 1522 01:12:35,960 --> 01:12:37,309 and is padlocked at the back. 1523 01:12:37,353 --> 01:12:39,267 It was impossible to move and impossible 1524 01:12:39,311 --> 01:12:41,531 to breathe properly, impossible to hear anything 1525 01:12:41,574 --> 01:12:43,924 and so I managed to scream and pleaded 1526 01:12:43,968 --> 01:12:45,665 with one of the guards to give me 1527 01:12:45,709 --> 01:12:47,537 a needle to put me to sleep. 1528 01:12:57,329 --> 01:12:59,723 - We fought for two and a half years 1529 01:12:59,766 --> 01:13:01,507 for just the right to go see the prisoners 1530 01:13:01,551 --> 01:13:03,422 and then fought for months year to get 1531 01:13:03,466 --> 01:13:05,642 security clearance so the military 1532 01:13:05,685 --> 01:13:08,775 would let you in there, I mean this is bizarre 1533 01:13:08,819 --> 01:13:11,517 it never occurred to me that when I went 1534 01:13:11,561 --> 01:13:14,868 to law school in America that we'd be 1535 01:13:14,912 --> 01:13:16,087 sitting around talking about whether 1536 01:13:16,130 --> 01:13:17,784 we could have access to our clients 1537 01:13:17,828 --> 01:13:20,439 and whether our clients had been tortured. 1538 01:13:20,483 --> 01:13:23,007 - Habeas corpus is really the essence 1539 01:13:23,050 --> 01:13:25,401 of the rule of law, not giving people 1540 01:13:25,444 --> 01:13:27,315 a basic hearing when you take away 1541 01:13:27,359 --> 01:13:29,317 their liberty is one of the reasons 1542 01:13:29,361 --> 01:13:30,841 we fought the Revolution, that the King 1543 01:13:30,884 --> 01:13:32,451 can't deprive somebody of liberty 1544 01:13:32,495 --> 01:13:33,670 without a hearing. 1545 01:14:32,511 --> 01:14:34,644 - In 2004, two and a half years 1546 01:14:34,687 --> 01:14:36,515 after the first detainees had arrived 1547 01:14:36,559 --> 01:14:38,691 in Guantanamo, the Supreme Court 1548 01:14:38,735 --> 01:14:41,085 rejected the Bush Administration's claims 1549 01:14:41,128 --> 01:14:43,043 that it could hold detainees indefinitely 1550 01:14:43,087 --> 01:14:44,958 without allowing them to challenge 1551 01:14:45,002 --> 01:14:46,743 their detention in the courts. 1552 01:14:47,787 --> 01:14:50,137 After the decision, the military 1553 01:14:50,181 --> 01:14:52,139 installed special new tribunals 1554 01:14:52,183 --> 01:14:54,968 to judge whether detainees should remain 1555 01:14:55,012 --> 01:14:57,405 in Guantanamo. - The Combatant Status 1556 01:14:57,449 --> 01:14:59,190 Review Tribunals, which the Government 1557 01:14:59,233 --> 01:15:02,541 hurriedly put in place, nine days 1558 01:15:02,585 --> 01:15:05,805 after we won before the Supreme Court, are a joke. 1559 01:15:05,849 --> 01:15:07,198 - You have no rights, you have no right 1560 01:15:07,241 --> 01:15:08,852 to a lawyer, you have no meaningful right 1561 01:15:08,895 --> 01:15:10,157 to witnesses, you don't really know 1562 01:15:10,201 --> 01:15:11,942 what the charges are and you certainly 1563 01:15:11,985 --> 01:15:14,292 don't know what the secret evidence is against you. 1564 01:15:14,335 --> 01:15:16,729 - They may not ever know it but that doesn't 1565 01:15:16,773 --> 01:15:19,036 that doesn't eliminate the opportunity 1566 01:15:19,079 --> 01:15:21,386 they have to make a case for why 1567 01:15:21,429 --> 01:15:23,780 if they were returned in the future 1568 01:15:23,823 --> 01:15:26,086 why they would not continue to pose a threat. 1569 01:15:27,131 --> 01:15:29,002 - My clients are found not guilty 1570 01:15:29,046 --> 01:15:32,005 at the CSRT tribunals and then 1571 01:15:32,049 --> 01:15:33,224 the military thinks that doesn't sound 1572 01:15:33,267 --> 01:15:34,530 so good, they were being called 1573 01:15:34,573 --> 01:15:37,620 Not Enemy Combatants, NEC, but now 1574 01:15:37,663 --> 01:15:40,623 they're NLEC, which means no longer 1575 01:15:40,666 --> 01:15:42,276 enemy combatant because we want 1576 01:15:42,320 --> 01:15:44,235 to say that they were guilty to begin with 1577 01:15:44,278 --> 01:15:45,628 but now they've had a change of heart 1578 01:15:45,671 --> 01:15:47,020 so they're not guilty anymore, but we 1579 01:15:47,064 --> 01:15:48,718 were right in the first place. 1580 01:15:48,761 --> 01:15:51,764 - These men aren't necessarily innocent men 1581 01:15:51,808 --> 01:15:55,028 that's not an accurate characterization. 1582 01:15:55,072 --> 01:15:57,988 You are more accurate in their long title, 1583 01:15:58,031 --> 01:16:01,774 no longer identified as an enemy combatant. 1584 01:16:01,818 --> 01:16:03,515 They are being held separate from 1585 01:16:03,559 --> 01:16:05,343 the remainder of the detainees until 1586 01:16:05,386 --> 01:16:07,606 the United States Government can find 1587 01:16:07,650 --> 01:16:10,348 a country they can be returned to. 1588 01:16:10,391 --> 01:16:11,567 - Some of these guys were policed off 1589 01:16:11,610 --> 01:16:14,874 the battlefield and if they weren't here 1590 01:16:14,918 --> 01:16:16,833 they would probably be on the battlefield 1591 01:16:16,876 --> 01:16:18,878 killing American soldiers. 1592 01:16:18,922 --> 01:16:21,054 They're here for a reason and it's our job 1593 01:16:21,098 --> 01:16:24,014 to ensure that they stay here until 1594 01:16:24,057 --> 01:16:26,146 such time as it's deemed they don't need 1595 01:16:26,190 --> 01:16:26,930 to be here any longer. 1596 01:16:28,235 --> 01:16:30,324 - Guantanamo is hiding the fact that 1597 01:16:30,368 --> 01:16:32,892 the really bad dudes, Mullah Omar 1598 01:16:32,936 --> 01:16:34,198 and of course, Osama Bin Laden 1599 01:16:34,241 --> 01:16:36,287 have never been captured, so you have 1600 01:16:36,330 --> 01:16:39,812 Guantanamo Bay as here are 750 really evil guys 1601 01:16:39,856 --> 01:16:43,163 as a PR stunt effectively to say 1602 01:16:43,207 --> 01:16:44,774 look, we're really achieving something 1603 01:16:44,817 --> 01:16:45,862 in the war on terror. 1604 01:16:59,919 --> 01:17:02,313 ♪ Come along with me 1605 01:17:02,356 --> 01:17:06,534 ♪ To my little corner of the world ♪ 1606 01:17:06,578 --> 01:17:08,580 ♪ Dream - And that is the main 1607 01:17:08,624 --> 01:17:09,799 entrance to Camp X-Ray. 1608 01:17:09,842 --> 01:17:11,235 It would be extremely difficult 1609 01:17:11,278 --> 01:17:13,933 for anybody to make an escape out of here. 1610 01:17:13,977 --> 01:17:16,457 ♪ You'll soon forget - Each one is eight by eight 1611 01:17:16,501 --> 01:17:18,764 by eight, one individual per cell. 1612 01:17:20,157 --> 01:17:22,333 If you member the individual in orange jump suits 1613 01:17:22,376 --> 01:17:23,987 there's three or four kneeling facing that way 1614 01:17:24,030 --> 01:17:26,685 and three or four kneeling, facing that way 1615 01:17:26,729 --> 01:17:27,904 if you take a shot from right here 1616 01:17:27,947 --> 01:17:29,296 you're gonna have the same image. 1617 01:17:30,384 --> 01:17:32,865 And no detainee has ever died at Gitmo 1618 01:17:32,909 --> 01:17:34,911 from anything, and I think the docs'll 1619 01:17:34,954 --> 01:17:36,129 give you an update we performed 1620 01:17:36,173 --> 01:17:39,306 well over 100 surgeries, so one good thing 1621 01:17:39,350 --> 01:17:41,091 for them being here is they are quite healthy 1622 01:17:41,134 --> 01:17:42,353 and they're getting everything fixed 1623 01:17:42,396 --> 01:17:43,702 they need to get fixed. 1624 01:17:44,790 --> 01:17:49,490 ♪ I always knew that I'd find someone like you ♪ 1625 01:17:50,753 --> 01:17:52,668 - We've introduced some new sports-type 1626 01:17:52,711 --> 01:17:55,409 activities here in Camp Four, we recently 1627 01:17:55,453 --> 01:17:57,020 built this half basketball court 1628 01:17:57,063 --> 01:17:59,326 and off to the left of that, you will see 1629 01:17:59,370 --> 01:18:01,720 a soccer court, it is a privilege 1630 01:18:01,764 --> 01:18:04,201 to live in Camp Four, they are compliant 1631 01:18:04,244 --> 01:18:06,116 with the camp rules in order to live here. 1632 01:18:06,159 --> 01:18:09,728 And we have introduced things like cake 1633 01:18:09,772 --> 01:18:12,035 on Wednesday nights, Pepsi on Monday nights 1634 01:18:12,078 --> 01:18:14,341 ice cream on Sunday nights. 1635 01:18:14,385 --> 01:18:16,866 Let's go in and take a look at the Bay. 1636 01:18:16,909 --> 01:18:19,433 - On the bed they have the so-called CIs 1637 01:18:19,477 --> 01:18:23,176 or comfort items which include toothbrush 1638 01:18:23,220 --> 01:18:25,483 but also include a game of Checkers 1639 01:18:25,526 --> 01:18:26,919 and I did ask them who's my client 1640 01:18:26,963 --> 01:18:28,225 meant to play Checkers with, he's in 1641 01:18:28,268 --> 01:18:30,270 solitary confinement by himself. 1642 01:18:31,532 --> 01:18:33,578 ♪ And with. - What is the problem 1643 01:18:33,621 --> 01:18:35,623 with the press photographing them, 1644 01:18:35,667 --> 01:18:38,409 talking with them, observing them? 1645 01:18:38,452 --> 01:18:41,194 - Desire to not provide a platform 1646 01:18:42,369 --> 01:18:45,198 to have the men we're holding espouse 1647 01:18:45,242 --> 01:18:49,246 a vile, Islamic rhetoric, a violent, 1648 01:18:49,289 --> 01:18:52,989 vile, Islamic rhetoric. ♪ Find someone like you 1649 01:18:53,032 --> 01:18:57,994 ♪ So we'll go to our little corner of the world ♪ 1650 01:19:03,216 --> 01:19:05,784 - This is a tactic of Al-Qaeda. 1651 01:19:05,828 --> 01:19:07,743 Hunger strike to elicit media attention 1652 01:19:09,353 --> 01:19:11,659 and to bring pressure on the United States Government. 1653 01:19:11,703 --> 01:19:13,487 When these numbers went up significantly, 1654 01:19:13,531 --> 01:19:14,662 you guys start talking about it, 1655 01:19:14,706 --> 01:19:16,708 you guys start asking about it, so 1656 01:19:16,752 --> 01:19:17,665 they understand that. 1657 01:19:18,797 --> 01:19:21,147 - Camp Five is a 100 bed maximum security 1658 01:19:21,191 --> 01:19:23,976 segregation and interrogation facility. 1659 01:19:24,020 --> 01:19:25,195 - If they're held in Camp Five, 1660 01:19:25,238 --> 01:19:27,023 an average day is always the same. 1661 01:19:27,066 --> 01:19:29,721 Which is, you're held 24 hours 1662 01:19:29,765 --> 01:19:31,375 in solitary confinement. 1663 01:19:33,072 --> 01:19:34,378 - Here in the cell, was eight foot 1664 01:19:34,421 --> 01:19:36,119 by six foot and I couldn't physically 1665 01:19:36,162 --> 01:19:38,338 take three steps in any direction. 1666 01:19:39,775 --> 01:19:41,080 I certainly believed that I was going to 1667 01:19:41,124 --> 01:19:42,821 spend the greater part of my life 1668 01:19:42,865 --> 01:19:44,605 and perhaps even face execution, 1669 01:19:44,649 --> 01:19:47,260 which was what I was told quite often. 1670 01:19:47,304 --> 01:19:50,394 - What's particularly pernicious in Guantanamo Bay 1671 01:19:50,437 --> 01:19:52,222 is there is no sense of when it's gonna end 1672 01:19:52,265 --> 01:19:54,877 or if it's gonna end and the reason 1673 01:19:54,920 --> 01:19:56,661 that prisoners go on a hunger strike 1674 01:19:56,704 --> 01:19:58,489 for example and may starve themselves 1675 01:19:58,532 --> 01:20:01,535 to death is in the words of Omar Deghayes 1676 01:20:01,579 --> 01:20:03,799 "I'm dying slowly here in Guantanamo 1677 01:20:03,842 --> 01:20:05,626 "as it is, so I may as well take 1678 01:20:05,670 --> 01:20:07,498 "my life into my own hands." 1679 01:20:12,372 --> 01:20:15,071 - I have no intention of holding somebody here 1680 01:20:15,114 --> 01:20:17,595 any longer than he is a threat to our country 1681 01:20:17,638 --> 01:20:19,771 or that he has intelligence or information 1682 01:20:19,815 --> 01:20:21,120 that could be valuable to us in 1683 01:20:21,164 --> 01:20:22,556 the global war on terror. 1684 01:20:22,600 --> 01:20:24,123 We continue to collect information 1685 01:20:24,167 --> 01:20:26,604 of value from the men we're holding today. 1686 01:20:31,914 --> 01:20:33,350 - One of the reasons why I was held 1687 01:20:33,393 --> 01:20:35,004 in isolation was to do with this issue 1688 01:20:35,047 --> 01:20:38,137 of witnessing these deaths in Bagram 1689 01:20:38,181 --> 01:20:39,617 and they asked me which soldiers 1690 01:20:39,660 --> 01:20:41,097 had been involved and were around at the time 1691 01:20:41,140 --> 01:20:43,490 so they brought in photographs of the people 1692 01:20:43,534 --> 01:20:46,058 from the unit and I pointed out 1693 01:20:46,102 --> 01:20:47,712 to who I believed was involved. 1694 01:20:48,974 --> 01:20:50,671 They asked me one of the strangest things 1695 01:20:50,715 --> 01:20:52,935 requests I've ever had during the time 1696 01:20:52,978 --> 01:20:55,502 I was in incarceration and that was 1697 01:20:55,546 --> 01:20:57,896 would I be willing to stand up as a witness 1698 01:20:57,940 --> 01:21:00,072 for the prosecution in a trial against 1699 01:21:00,116 --> 01:21:02,596 these soldiers and I thought how ironic this is 1700 01:21:02,640 --> 01:21:04,511 you know, is this the only court 1701 01:21:04,555 --> 01:21:06,339 that I'm going to get to see after 1702 01:21:06,383 --> 01:21:08,037 all these years in incarceration? 1703 01:21:16,436 --> 01:21:17,568 - The cruel ironies 1704 01:21:17,611 --> 01:21:19,570 of the Dilawar story echoed in ongoing 1705 01:21:19,613 --> 01:21:22,007 debate in the halls of Congress 1706 01:21:22,051 --> 01:21:24,923 about detainee abuse, national security 1707 01:21:24,967 --> 01:21:25,881 and the rule of law. 1708 01:21:26,969 --> 01:21:29,449 For one Senator, John McCain, a former 1709 01:21:29,493 --> 01:21:31,495 prisoner of war, the matter of 1710 01:21:31,538 --> 01:21:34,933 detainee abuse was both political and personal. 1711 01:21:38,763 --> 01:21:40,112 - I would just like to tell 1712 01:21:45,030 --> 01:21:49,469 my wife I'm going to get well 1713 01:21:53,647 --> 01:21:56,824 I love her, and I hope to see her soon 1714 01:22:00,132 --> 01:22:02,308 and I'd appreciate if if you tell her that. 1715 01:22:07,009 --> 01:22:07,923 That's all. 1716 01:22:09,837 --> 01:22:12,579 - If this man, after six and a half 1717 01:22:12,623 --> 01:22:16,061 or seven years of torture says that it's not 1718 01:22:16,105 --> 01:22:21,153 efficient, it's inhumane, and it breeds 1719 01:22:21,197 --> 01:22:23,590 contempt for the United States, 1720 01:22:23,634 --> 01:22:27,290 he can stand up and be a moral voice 1721 01:22:27,333 --> 01:22:29,683 on this issue. - We sent them to fight 1722 01:22:29,727 --> 01:22:31,947 for us in Afghanistan and Iraq, 1723 01:22:31,990 --> 01:22:34,166 we placed extraordinary pressure on them 1724 01:22:34,210 --> 01:22:37,387 to extract intelligence from detainees 1725 01:22:37,430 --> 01:22:38,779 but then we threw out the rules 1726 01:22:38,823 --> 01:22:40,956 that our soldiers had trained on 1727 01:22:40,999 --> 01:22:42,696 and replaced them with a confusing 1728 01:22:42,740 --> 01:22:46,439 and constantly changing array of standards 1729 01:22:46,483 --> 01:22:48,659 and when things went wrong, we blamed them 1730 01:22:48,702 --> 01:22:50,356 and we punished them. 1731 01:22:52,054 --> 01:22:54,099 I believe we have to do better than that. 1732 01:22:56,493 --> 01:22:58,582 I strongly urge you to do justice 1733 01:22:58,625 --> 01:23:00,497 to your men and women in uniform 1734 01:23:01,628 --> 01:23:03,543 give them clear standards of conduct 1735 01:23:03,587 --> 01:23:07,243 that reflect the ideals they risk their lives for. 1736 01:23:11,073 --> 01:23:13,249 - On October 5th, 2005 1737 01:23:13,292 --> 01:23:15,599 as increasing numbers of detainee abuse cases 1738 01:23:15,642 --> 01:23:18,167 came to trial, Senator John McCain 1739 01:23:18,210 --> 01:23:20,299 proposed the Detainee Treatment Act. 1740 01:23:22,388 --> 01:23:25,391 The bill sought a total US ban on torture 1741 01:23:25,435 --> 01:23:28,003 as well as cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment 1742 01:23:29,047 --> 01:23:31,571 and it sparked a national debate, 1743 01:23:31,615 --> 01:23:35,227 one in which the devil was in the details. 1744 01:23:35,271 --> 01:23:37,534 - Is it still permissible to use 1745 01:23:37,577 --> 01:23:39,231 a wet towel and dripping water 1746 01:23:39,275 --> 01:23:42,800 to induce the misperception of suffocation? 1747 01:23:42,843 --> 01:23:44,628 - The use of the wet towel, dripping water 1748 01:23:44,671 --> 01:23:46,586 to induce misperceptions of suffocation 1749 01:23:46,630 --> 01:23:50,025 was one of the techniques requested 1750 01:23:50,068 --> 01:23:52,418 by the JTF in their laundry list 1751 01:23:52,462 --> 01:23:54,551 given up, it was never approved, 1752 01:23:54,594 --> 01:23:57,510 it has never been a technique approved. 1753 01:23:57,554 --> 01:23:58,903 - One of the techniques that made 1754 01:23:58,946 --> 01:24:01,297 the transition from the regime of the physical 1755 01:24:01,340 --> 01:24:03,908 to the psychological, in fact the only one 1756 01:24:03,951 --> 01:24:06,084 really was waterboarding, because in 1757 01:24:06,128 --> 01:24:08,173 the medieval era under the Inquisition, 1758 01:24:08,217 --> 01:24:10,871 it was done because of its horrible 1759 01:24:10,915 --> 01:24:13,178 physical aspects, it was done to purge 1760 01:24:13,222 --> 01:24:16,051 and punish the heretic, you forced 1761 01:24:16,094 --> 01:24:18,096 water down the throat of the victim 1762 01:24:18,140 --> 01:24:20,142 the victim thinks that he's drowning, 1763 01:24:20,185 --> 01:24:23,362 it's horrible, your body tells you that you're dying. 1764 01:24:23,406 --> 01:24:27,410 Right after 9/11, the CIA 1765 01:24:27,453 --> 01:24:30,065 got approval from the White House for waterboarding. 1766 01:24:31,414 --> 01:24:32,893 - An early test case involving 1767 01:24:32,937 --> 01:24:35,418 the interrogation of Ibn Shaikh al-Libi 1768 01:24:35,461 --> 01:24:37,202 A man suspected of being the Amir 1769 01:24:37,246 --> 01:24:38,812 of an Al-Qaeda training camp. 1770 01:24:40,249 --> 01:24:42,120 Initially, the FBI was in charge 1771 01:24:42,164 --> 01:24:44,514 of his interrogation but the Administration 1772 01:24:44,557 --> 01:24:46,255 was impatient with the slow results 1773 01:24:46,298 --> 01:24:49,084 of the FBIs law enforcement techniques 1774 01:24:49,127 --> 01:24:52,043 so they turned al-Libi over to the CIA. 1775 01:24:52,087 --> 01:24:55,177 - He is secured, he was either duck taped 1776 01:24:55,220 --> 01:24:57,179 or hooded and he was gonna be put in 1777 01:24:57,222 --> 01:25:01,313 to a box, plywood box, for his own protection 1778 01:25:02,488 --> 01:25:05,187 for transfer to the airport. 1779 01:25:05,230 --> 01:25:06,492 - They threw him on an aircraft 1780 01:25:06,536 --> 01:25:08,625 and they rendered him through extraordinary 1781 01:25:08,668 --> 01:25:12,194 rendition to Egypt. 1782 01:25:12,237 --> 01:25:14,848 They later subjected him to two weeks 1783 01:25:14,892 --> 01:25:17,199 of brutal torture involving all these techniques 1784 01:25:17,242 --> 01:25:20,463 including waterboarding and they got 1785 01:25:20,506 --> 01:25:22,595 information from al-Libi stating 1786 01:25:22,639 --> 01:25:24,945 that Saddam Hussain's regime had trained 1787 01:25:24,989 --> 01:25:28,906 Al-Qaeda in chemical and biological warfare. 1788 01:25:28,949 --> 01:25:31,909 - One of the things we know about torture 1789 01:25:31,952 --> 01:25:34,825 is that someone who is tortured 1790 01:25:34,868 --> 01:25:38,481 will tell his interrogator what he thinks 1791 01:25:38,524 --> 01:25:41,701 the interrogator wants to hear. 1792 01:25:41,745 --> 01:25:44,139 - The moment al-Libi was waterboarded 1793 01:25:44,182 --> 01:25:46,445 he started blurting things out, 1794 01:25:46,489 --> 01:25:48,752 well rather than questioning what 1795 01:25:48,795 --> 01:25:51,320 he was saying and going into it in detail 1796 01:25:51,363 --> 01:25:53,626 to see if what he was saying could be corroborated 1797 01:25:53,670 --> 01:25:56,542 they immediately stopped and ran off 1798 01:25:56,586 --> 01:25:59,066 to report what al-Libi had said 1799 01:25:59,110 --> 01:26:01,765 and ended the torture and bang, 1800 01:26:01,808 --> 01:26:03,810 it gets up to the highest decision makers 1801 01:26:03,854 --> 01:26:05,638 and all of a sudden Colin Powell is told 1802 01:26:05,682 --> 01:26:07,205 hey, you don't have to worry about 1803 01:26:07,249 --> 01:26:09,903 your doubts anymore because we've just gotten 1804 01:26:09,947 --> 01:26:11,383 confirmation that there were 1805 01:26:11,427 --> 01:26:13,777 contacts between Al-Qaeda and Baghdad. 1806 01:26:15,561 --> 01:26:17,650 - In February 2003, 1807 01:26:17,694 --> 01:26:20,175 then Secretary of State Colin Powell 1808 01:26:20,218 --> 01:26:21,872 went before the United Nations 1809 01:26:21,915 --> 01:26:24,788 to make the case for the war in Iraq. 1810 01:26:24,831 --> 01:26:27,094 - I can trace the story of a senior 1811 01:26:27,138 --> 01:26:29,401 terrorist operative telling how 1812 01:26:29,445 --> 01:26:32,056 Iraq provided training in these weapons 1813 01:26:32,099 --> 01:26:35,538 to Al Qaeda, fortunately, this operative 1814 01:26:35,581 --> 01:26:39,150 is now detained and he has told his story. 1815 01:26:39,194 --> 01:26:43,241 - A year later, the CIA branded al-Libi 1816 01:26:43,285 --> 01:26:46,549 a fabricator, rescinded all the intelligence 1817 01:26:46,592 --> 01:26:48,899 reports with that information in it. 1818 01:26:48,942 --> 01:26:50,466 So in other words, you will get information 1819 01:26:50,509 --> 01:26:52,729 but you'll get false information. 1820 01:26:53,686 --> 01:26:54,731 - I think Colin Powell has said 1821 01:26:54,774 --> 01:26:56,211 that was the most embarrassing day 1822 01:26:56,254 --> 01:26:59,562 of his entire life. 1823 01:27:02,434 --> 01:27:05,350 - All the experts say that torturing people 1824 01:27:05,394 --> 01:27:08,614 is not the best way to get information. 1825 01:27:09,659 --> 01:27:12,488 Breaking down the barriers between 1826 01:27:12,531 --> 01:27:15,752 you and them gaining their confidence 1827 01:27:15,795 --> 01:27:17,841 is the best way to get it. 1828 01:27:17,884 --> 01:27:19,582 It takes some experience, it takes 1829 01:27:19,625 --> 01:27:21,801 some talent, it takes some patience 1830 01:27:21,845 --> 01:27:23,238 and then they might actually tell you 1831 01:27:23,281 --> 01:27:25,414 something that is worthwhile and then 1832 01:27:25,457 --> 01:27:29,156 if you wanna prosecute them and execute em, go ahead. 1833 01:27:29,200 --> 01:27:31,071 - You wanna be able to build a rapport 1834 01:27:31,115 --> 01:27:34,249 with somebody, you are their salvation 1835 01:27:34,292 --> 01:27:36,555 because their life as they know it is over. 1836 01:27:39,210 --> 01:27:40,777 Is there something I can do for your kids? 1837 01:27:40,820 --> 01:27:41,517 You concerned about them? 1838 01:27:42,909 --> 01:27:45,260 You want them educated, I'll get them educated. 1839 01:27:47,044 --> 01:27:49,046 What do you want, tell me what you want, 1840 01:27:50,134 --> 01:27:53,442 script for me your exit strategy 1841 01:27:53,485 --> 01:27:55,313 how do you extricate yourself from this 1842 01:27:55,357 --> 01:27:57,968 terrible situation, by the way, that you 1843 01:27:58,011 --> 01:28:01,537 put yourself in, now you can't go back home. 1844 01:28:03,321 --> 01:28:05,802 Can you, no, so let's make peace with that. 1845 01:28:05,845 --> 01:28:08,021 Let me help you find the strategy 1846 01:28:08,065 --> 01:28:13,026 to give you a life, and that's the way it worked. 1847 01:28:14,158 --> 01:28:16,465 The amount of information that they 1848 01:28:16,508 --> 01:28:19,424 were able to provide us pre-9/11 1849 01:28:19,468 --> 01:28:22,297 to me, it was extremely valuable. 1850 01:28:22,340 --> 01:28:24,995 Who else was gonna tell us about how 1851 01:28:25,038 --> 01:28:29,260 you joined Al-Qaeda, what did bayat mean? 1852 01:28:29,304 --> 01:28:30,957 How did they communicate? 1853 01:28:31,001 --> 01:28:33,438 Did they use Inmarsat satellite phones? 1854 01:28:33,482 --> 01:28:35,571 Did bin Laden use a body double? 1855 01:28:35,614 --> 01:28:37,703 So when we got all that information 1856 01:28:37,747 --> 01:28:40,880 we were able to do certain operations. 1857 01:28:40,924 --> 01:28:43,970 Cumbersome though it may be, it still 1858 01:28:44,014 --> 01:28:47,017 to me was the way to do it and we 1859 01:28:47,060 --> 01:28:48,888 don't have to apologize to anybody. 1860 01:28:50,673 --> 01:28:52,370 We don't know what revenge is coming 1861 01:28:52,414 --> 01:28:55,895 down the road, and if I wanted to 1862 01:28:55,939 --> 01:28:57,897 insight the faithful, I'd just take one 1863 01:28:57,941 --> 01:29:00,422 picture with a dog collar on and just 1864 01:29:00,465 --> 01:29:02,641 point into that and look at the young brothers 1865 01:29:02,685 --> 01:29:05,252 and say you're duty bound now to get revenge. 1866 01:29:10,823 --> 01:29:13,348 - The advocates of torture generally 1867 01:29:13,391 --> 01:29:15,567 focus on the hypothetical, they have 1868 01:29:15,611 --> 01:29:17,700 this ticking bomb center they talk about. 1869 01:29:17,743 --> 01:29:19,484 - Which is imagine that there's a ticking 1870 01:29:19,528 --> 01:29:22,313 time bomb in Times Square, it's about 1871 01:29:22,357 --> 01:29:24,184 to go off, we've got the guy in custody 1872 01:29:24,228 --> 01:29:27,405 he says he wants a lawyer, do we respect 1873 01:29:27,449 --> 01:29:29,755 his right to a lawyer, or to save a million lives, 1874 01:29:29,799 --> 01:29:33,106 do we apply the electrodes to his testicles? 1875 01:29:38,851 --> 01:29:43,682 - 24 week after week has on-camera displays 1876 01:29:43,726 --> 01:29:45,728 of brutal torture. - Just tell me 1877 01:29:45,771 --> 01:29:47,382 what's your connection to terrorists? 1878 01:29:47,425 --> 01:29:49,296 - Designed to stop some terrorist 1879 01:29:49,340 --> 01:29:51,342 with a ticking bomb from killing 1880 01:29:51,386 --> 01:29:52,735 hundreds of thousands if not millions 1881 01:29:52,778 --> 01:29:54,737 of Americans. - You're talking about 1882 01:29:54,780 --> 01:29:56,216 torturing this man? - I'm talking about 1883 01:29:56,260 --> 01:29:57,566 doing what is necessary to stop 1884 01:29:57,609 --> 01:29:59,437 this warhead from being used against us. 1885 01:29:59,481 --> 01:30:00,873 - It's just nonsense though, because 1886 01:30:00,917 --> 01:30:03,310 then you ask, hey, name me one time 1887 01:30:03,354 --> 01:30:05,182 in the last five hundred years 1888 01:30:05,225 --> 01:30:06,705 when we've had someone in custody 1889 01:30:06,749 --> 01:30:08,098 with a ticking time bomb. 1890 01:30:08,141 --> 01:30:11,580 - The likelihood of that ever happening 1891 01:30:11,623 --> 01:30:15,758 is so remote, even if you're in that situation 1892 01:30:15,801 --> 01:30:17,542 who's to say that if you beat em up 1893 01:30:17,586 --> 01:30:19,675 that you're gonna get that information? 1894 01:30:19,718 --> 01:30:21,677 If a guy's that committed, I think he'll die 1895 01:30:21,720 --> 01:30:23,330 before he gives it up. 1896 01:30:24,506 --> 01:30:26,203 - Right after the release of the Abu Ghraib 1897 01:30:26,246 --> 01:30:30,555 photos in mid-2004, 35% of Americans polled 1898 01:30:30,599 --> 01:30:32,122 believed that torture was acceptable 1899 01:30:32,165 --> 01:30:35,386 under some circumstances, even after 1900 01:30:35,430 --> 01:30:37,997 the Abu Ghraib phots, and I think that shows 1901 01:30:38,041 --> 01:30:40,347 the way that this kind of popular culture 1902 01:30:40,391 --> 01:30:43,220 has built a constituency for torture 1903 01:30:43,263 --> 01:30:44,961 which allows the Bush White House 1904 01:30:45,004 --> 01:30:47,703 to get away with the way it twists 1905 01:30:47,746 --> 01:30:51,968 laws and treaties and doesn't spark popular outrage. 1906 01:30:53,273 --> 01:30:55,450 - On a conservative radio show 1907 01:30:55,493 --> 01:30:57,843 Vice President Dick Cheney openly defended 1908 01:30:57,887 --> 01:30:59,410 the practice of waterboarding. 1909 01:31:00,629 --> 01:31:02,326 - Would you agree a drunk in water 1910 01:31:02,369 --> 01:31:04,284 is a no-brainer if it can save lives? 1911 01:31:04,328 --> 01:31:07,984 - Well, it's a no-brainer for me 1912 01:31:08,027 --> 01:31:09,551 but for a while there I was criticized 1913 01:31:09,594 --> 01:31:11,596 as being the Vice President for torture. 1914 01:31:13,685 --> 01:31:15,774 - We do not condone torture. 1915 01:31:15,818 --> 01:31:18,168 - We do not torture, footnote, 1916 01:31:18,211 --> 01:31:20,039 as we define torture, which means exactly 1917 01:31:20,083 --> 01:31:22,128 what we wish it to mean and nothing else. 1918 01:31:23,565 --> 01:31:27,090 - In the elections of 2006, the Bush Administration 1919 01:31:27,133 --> 01:31:29,266 openly campaigned for harsh techniques 1920 01:31:29,309 --> 01:31:31,703 the rest of the world defined as torture. 1921 01:31:32,835 --> 01:31:34,489 Bush and Cheney played on the fears 1922 01:31:34,532 --> 01:31:37,056 of voters and politicians, if Congress 1923 01:31:37,100 --> 01:31:38,797 didn't give them the power to do 1924 01:31:38,841 --> 01:31:42,453 whatever was necessary, how could Americans be safe? 1925 01:31:43,585 --> 01:31:44,934 - In addition to the terrorists held 1926 01:31:44,977 --> 01:31:47,980 at Guantanamo, a small number of suspected 1927 01:31:48,024 --> 01:31:49,678 terrorist leaders and operatives captured 1928 01:31:49,721 --> 01:31:51,984 during the war have been held and questioned 1929 01:31:52,028 --> 01:31:56,989 outside the United States in a separate program 1930 01:31:57,033 --> 01:31:59,470 operated by the Central Intelligence Agency. 1931 01:32:01,603 --> 01:32:04,214 Some ask why are you acknowledging this program now? 1932 01:32:05,607 --> 01:32:07,696 Some believe our military and intelligence 1933 01:32:07,739 --> 01:32:10,437 personnel involved in capturing and questioning 1934 01:32:10,481 --> 01:32:13,266 terrorists could now be at risk 1935 01:32:13,310 --> 01:32:16,531 of prosecution under the War Crimes Act 1936 01:32:16,574 --> 01:32:18,707 simply for doing their jobs in a thorough 1937 01:32:18,750 --> 01:32:22,580 and professional way, this is unacceptable. 1938 01:32:23,973 --> 01:32:25,104 - The President was forced 1939 01:32:25,148 --> 01:32:27,629 to disclose his secret CIA program 1940 01:32:27,672 --> 01:32:29,892 when the Supreme Court acted to limit 1941 01:32:29,935 --> 01:32:32,634 his war time powers, in the historic 1942 01:32:32,677 --> 01:32:34,810 Handam Decision, the court ruled 1943 01:32:34,853 --> 01:32:37,029 that interrogations and trials of terrorists 1944 01:32:37,073 --> 01:32:40,903 would be governed by the Geneva Conventions. 1945 01:32:40,946 --> 01:32:43,558 - This debate is occurring because of 1946 01:32:43,601 --> 01:32:45,255 the Supreme Court's ruling that said 1947 01:32:45,298 --> 01:32:48,258 that we must conduct ourselves under 1948 01:32:48,301 --> 01:32:50,869 the Common Article 3 of the Geneva Convention. 1949 01:32:52,741 --> 01:32:54,612 And that Common Article 3 says 1950 01:32:54,656 --> 01:32:57,659 that there will be no outrages upon human dignity. 1951 01:33:00,313 --> 01:33:03,752 It's very vague, what does that mean? 1952 01:33:09,409 --> 01:33:11,324 - Do you believe that the use of testimony 1953 01:33:11,368 --> 01:33:13,631 which is obtained through techniques 1954 01:33:13,675 --> 01:33:16,634 such as waterboarding, stress positions 1955 01:33:16,678 --> 01:33:18,636 intimidating use of military dogs, 1956 01:33:18,680 --> 01:33:20,943 sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation, 1957 01:33:20,986 --> 01:33:22,814 forced nudity would be consistent 1958 01:33:22,858 --> 01:33:24,555 with Common Article 3? 1959 01:33:25,991 --> 01:33:27,471 - Well sir, I think most importantly 1960 01:33:27,514 --> 01:33:29,212 I can't imagine that such testimony 1961 01:33:29,255 --> 01:33:31,867 would be reliable. - Mr Attorney General 1962 01:33:31,910 --> 01:33:33,303 do you believe that statements obtained 1963 01:33:33,346 --> 01:33:35,697 through illegal, inhumane treatment 1964 01:33:35,740 --> 01:33:36,785 should be admissible? 1965 01:33:50,015 --> 01:33:50,842 - Senator, I. 1966 01:33:54,498 --> 01:33:59,155 Well, again, I'll say this, the concern 1967 01:33:59,198 --> 01:34:02,375 that I would have about such a prohibition 1968 01:34:02,419 --> 01:34:05,117 is what does it mean how you define it? 1969 01:34:05,161 --> 01:34:07,424 - And who define it? 1970 01:34:07,467 --> 01:34:08,947 The Bush Administration introduced 1971 01:34:08,991 --> 01:34:11,471 a new law that would elude the restrictions 1972 01:34:11,515 --> 01:34:12,342 of the Supreme Court. 1973 01:34:13,560 --> 01:34:16,041 - In a legal sense, I think they wanted 1974 01:34:16,085 --> 01:34:18,348 to discard the Constitution and they wanted 1975 01:34:18,391 --> 01:34:20,480 to write a new one, but you can't do that 1976 01:34:20,524 --> 01:34:21,830 so what you do is you throw a new 1977 01:34:21,873 --> 01:34:23,832 interpretation on the old one and the new 1978 01:34:23,875 --> 01:34:26,573 interpretation is the Executive in War Time 1979 01:34:26,617 --> 01:34:30,316 and perhaps this war is gonna last forever 1980 01:34:30,360 --> 01:34:31,230 is all powerful. 1981 01:34:33,363 --> 01:34:34,669 - Congress gave the President 1982 01:34:34,712 --> 01:34:37,541 most of what he wanted, he would agree 1983 01:34:37,584 --> 01:34:39,717 to abide by the Geneva Conventions 1984 01:34:39,761 --> 01:34:41,719 so long as he could define their meaning 1985 01:34:41,763 --> 01:34:42,720 and application. 1986 01:34:44,417 --> 01:34:46,768 A few detainees at Guantanamo might be 1987 01:34:46,811 --> 01:34:49,553 put on trial, but the rest would no longer 1988 01:34:49,596 --> 01:34:52,948 have access to habeas corpus, the fundamental 1989 01:34:52,991 --> 01:34:55,341 legal right to challenge their detention. 1990 01:34:58,518 --> 01:35:00,433 Planning a run for President, 1991 01:35:00,477 --> 01:35:02,958 even Senator McCain voted for the Bill. 1992 01:35:03,001 --> 01:35:04,960 Soon after the Bush Administration threatened 1993 01:35:05,003 --> 01:35:07,484 to discredit him with conservative voters. 1994 01:35:09,355 --> 01:35:11,444 - Buried deep inside this legislation 1995 01:35:11,488 --> 01:35:14,709 is a provision that will pardon President Bush 1996 01:35:14,752 --> 01:35:16,754 and all the members of his Administration 1997 01:35:16,798 --> 01:35:19,322 of any possible crimes connected with 1998 01:35:19,365 --> 01:35:21,585 the torture and mistreatment of detainees 1999 01:35:21,628 --> 01:35:25,458 dated all the way back to September 11th, 2001 2000 01:35:25,502 --> 01:35:27,373 at least President Nixon had Gerald Ford 2001 01:35:27,417 --> 01:35:28,766 to do his dirty work, President Bush 2002 01:35:28,810 --> 01:35:30,768 is trying to pardon himself. 2003 01:35:32,814 --> 01:35:34,816 - The pardon did not extend 2004 01:35:34,859 --> 01:35:37,601 to front line soldiers. 2005 01:35:37,644 --> 01:35:40,691 - The trial was a very confusing time for me 2006 01:35:40,735 --> 01:35:41,866 because I've never been through trial before 2007 01:35:41,910 --> 01:35:43,868 I didn't know what was really going on. 2008 01:35:45,870 --> 01:35:47,872 I kinda just understood that I was facing 2009 01:35:47,916 --> 01:35:49,265 a lot of time in jail, that's the only 2010 01:35:49,308 --> 01:35:51,571 thing I really understood about the whole thing. 2011 01:35:54,444 --> 01:35:58,361 - Well I was sent to jail, to a military 2012 01:35:58,404 --> 01:36:02,365 correctional facility, I have lost 2013 01:36:02,408 --> 01:36:07,109 my full time job, I have a bad conduct discharge 2014 01:36:07,152 --> 01:36:11,156 which has hindered me in getting a new job 2015 01:36:11,200 --> 01:36:12,244 in the same field. 2016 01:36:14,594 --> 01:36:19,599 I have financially, it's just devastated me. 2017 01:36:21,036 --> 01:36:22,951 - I'm just glad it's over, that's it. 2018 01:36:22,994 --> 01:36:24,300 I can get on with my life. 2019 01:36:28,347 --> 01:36:31,829 - I had to plead guilty to assault 2020 01:36:31,873 --> 01:36:35,528 and two counts of dereliction of duty 2021 01:36:35,572 --> 01:36:37,704 in exchange, they'd say that I could 2022 01:36:37,748 --> 01:36:40,403 go to jail for no more than four months. 2023 01:36:41,926 --> 01:36:43,275 - Rather than spend the money that was 2024 01:36:43,319 --> 01:36:45,277 being spent for that trial, I think 2025 01:36:45,321 --> 01:36:46,496 it could have been better spent 2026 01:36:46,539 --> 01:36:48,324 in working on Army doctrine to make sure 2027 01:36:48,367 --> 01:36:50,630 that other people go into battle 2028 01:36:50,674 --> 01:36:54,504 properly equipped, properly led, 2029 01:36:54,547 --> 01:36:56,288 and with a full understanding as to what 2030 01:36:56,332 --> 01:36:58,725 their new rules and responsibilities are. 2031 01:36:58,769 --> 01:37:03,078 - When a detainee is abused 2032 01:37:03,121 --> 01:37:06,385 or a detainee claims abuse, they want 2033 01:37:06,429 --> 01:37:08,213 somebody to take the fall for it 2034 01:37:08,257 --> 01:37:09,388 and it's not gonna be the person 2035 01:37:09,432 --> 01:37:11,695 with Eagles or Stars on their shoulder. 2036 01:37:13,653 --> 01:37:15,481 - No officer was ever convicted 2037 01:37:15,525 --> 01:37:16,918 in the Dilawar case. 2038 01:37:18,354 --> 01:37:20,573 Following her service at Abu Ghraib, 2039 01:37:20,617 --> 01:37:23,315 Captain Carolyn Wood wast given a staff position 2040 01:37:23,359 --> 01:37:25,883 at the Army Interrogation School 2041 01:37:25,927 --> 01:37:28,538 in Fort Huachuca, Arizona. 2042 01:37:28,581 --> 01:37:31,671 - What does that reflect in terms of 2043 01:37:31,715 --> 01:37:34,761 senior leadership's intentions? 2044 01:37:34,805 --> 01:37:38,853 Not to eradicate the abuse, but to 2045 01:37:38,896 --> 01:37:40,855 perpetuate the abuse. 2046 01:37:41,986 --> 01:37:43,422 - I think the probability exists 2047 01:37:43,466 --> 01:37:44,771 that there will be other terrorist attacks 2048 01:37:44,815 --> 01:37:47,731 and more Americans will die and the argument 2049 01:37:47,774 --> 01:37:49,776 that we have to apply abuse to detainees 2050 01:37:49,820 --> 01:37:51,691 in order to protect American lives 2051 01:37:51,735 --> 01:37:54,346 I find to be violative of our deepest values 2052 01:37:54,390 --> 01:37:57,001 and to the very safety of our country. 2053 01:37:58,089 --> 01:37:59,874 We fight not only to protect lives, 2054 01:37:59,917 --> 01:38:01,658 we fight to protect our principles. 2055 01:38:02,833 --> 01:38:04,095 - If you say over the course 2056 01:38:04,139 --> 01:38:07,577 of Afghanistan, Gitmo and Iraq we've detained 2057 01:38:07,620 --> 01:38:10,014 50,000 people, I'd say less than 1% 2058 01:38:10,058 --> 01:38:12,930 were terrorists. 2059 01:38:18,849 --> 01:38:20,807 Were some of them insurgents? 2060 01:38:20,851 --> 01:38:23,723 Probably, were almost all of em in Iraq 2061 01:38:23,767 --> 01:38:25,421 in particular gonna become insurgents 2062 01:38:25,464 --> 01:38:28,293 after their treatment, yes . 2063 01:38:28,337 --> 01:38:30,948 - I was kidnapped, abducted, falsely imprisoned 2064 01:38:30,992 --> 01:38:33,777 tortured and threatened with further torture 2065 01:38:33,820 --> 01:38:35,997 without charge, without trial. 2066 01:38:39,000 --> 01:38:41,089 Even many soldiers had said to me afterwards 2067 01:38:41,132 --> 01:38:43,091 was that hell, if you weren't a terrorist 2068 01:38:43,134 --> 01:38:44,962 when you came in here, by the time 2069 01:38:45,006 --> 01:38:46,268 you leave, I'm sure you would be 2070 01:38:46,311 --> 01:38:47,878 because of the way you've been treated. 2071 01:38:49,401 --> 01:38:52,535 - We think there's a certain 2072 01:38:52,578 --> 01:38:56,626 level of prejudice that this religion 2073 01:38:56,669 --> 01:38:59,890 and the people who have hijacked it 2074 01:38:59,934 --> 01:39:03,067 have such a disregard for life 2075 01:39:03,111 --> 01:39:05,417 that we turn around and say if they think 2076 01:39:05,461 --> 01:39:09,204 so very little of life, and clearly 9/11 2077 01:39:09,247 --> 01:39:14,252 exemplified that, screw them, anything goes. 2078 01:40:09,090 --> 01:40:12,136 - It's not surprising that at the end 2079 01:40:12,180 --> 01:40:16,923 of all this, Dilawar the victim was really lost. 2080 01:40:16,967 --> 01:40:19,013 I mean Dilawar was almost invisible 2081 01:40:19,056 --> 01:40:21,145 in the trials, I mean you never 2082 01:40:21,189 --> 01:40:24,061 saw pictures of him, nobody ever mentioned 2083 01:40:24,105 --> 01:40:26,368 this man's wife and child who were left 2084 01:40:26,411 --> 01:40:28,065 without a husband and father. 2085 01:40:29,414 --> 01:40:31,329 He was not part of the picture at all. 2086 01:40:48,346 --> 01:40:50,044 - There's a lot of other people out there 2087 01:40:50,087 --> 01:40:53,395 who are gonna run into this system 2088 01:40:53,438 --> 01:40:57,660 unless it's fixed and you only need one 2089 01:40:57,703 --> 01:41:01,055 to sort of remind yourself of what it's capable of. 2090 01:41:23,686 --> 01:41:25,122 - American values are premised 2091 01:41:25,166 --> 01:41:27,298 upon the notion of human dignity 2092 01:41:27,342 --> 01:41:28,865 and the sanctity of the individual. 2093 01:41:29,953 --> 01:41:32,434 To allow for cruelty to be applied 2094 01:41:32,477 --> 01:41:35,611 as a matter of official policy is to say 2095 01:41:35,654 --> 01:41:38,048 that our forefathers were wrong 2096 01:41:38,092 --> 01:41:39,876 about this inalienable rights. 2097 01:41:42,313 --> 01:41:44,054 - Americans obviously wanna believe 2098 01:41:44,098 --> 01:41:46,274 that we're somehow more moral than 2099 01:41:46,317 --> 01:41:47,840 the rest of the world, that for some reason 2100 01:41:47,884 --> 01:41:50,191 we have a real strong desire to feel that way 2101 01:41:50,234 --> 01:41:52,193 and I think that's eroding, I don't really know 2102 01:41:52,236 --> 01:41:54,282 what effect that's gonna have on us 2103 01:41:55,805 --> 01:41:57,415 and I think a lot of people have just decided 2104 01:41:57,459 --> 01:42:00,375 well, you know, it's different now. 2105 01:42:00,418 --> 01:42:04,248 After 9/11, we can't be good anymore 2106 01:42:04,292 --> 01:42:07,033 we have to get tough and so we'll have 2107 01:42:07,077 --> 01:42:09,601 to see what that does to us. 2108 01:42:09,645 --> 01:42:11,995 - What do you think? - I think that's bullshit, 2109 01:42:12,038 --> 01:42:14,867 frankly, I mean I think that we still need 2110 01:42:14,911 --> 01:42:18,654 to try and be as good as we can be. 2111 01:42:33,495 --> 01:42:35,801 - I find it utterly inconceivable 2112 01:42:35,845 --> 01:42:38,630 that the highest officials, Rumsfeld, 2113 01:42:38,674 --> 01:42:43,244 Bush and Cheney would not only countenance torture 2114 01:42:43,287 --> 01:42:45,289 but would actually advocate it period 2115 01:42:46,986 --> 01:42:48,597 is has really destroyed my faith 2116 01:42:48,640 --> 01:42:51,774 in the American Government because through 2117 01:42:51,817 --> 01:42:54,211 World War II and the Korean War 2118 01:42:54,255 --> 01:42:57,954 where I also served, we had the sense that 2119 01:42:57,997 --> 01:43:00,217 we were on the side of the good guys. 2120 01:43:00,261 --> 01:43:02,219 You would always get justice in 2121 01:43:02,263 --> 01:43:04,178 the United States of America 2122 01:43:04,221 --> 01:43:06,745 you would get, people would get decent treatment 2123 01:43:06,789 --> 01:43:09,661 that there was a rule of law, we never 2124 01:43:09,705 --> 01:43:12,577 forgot that, that behind the facade 2125 01:43:12,621 --> 01:43:16,538 of wartime hatreds, there was a central 2126 01:43:16,581 --> 01:43:19,193 rule of law which people abided by. 2127 01:43:21,412 --> 01:43:22,935 It was something we believed, 2128 01:43:22,979 --> 01:43:26,025 it was what made America different.