1 00:00:07,094 --> 00:00:09,278 Should have gotten my nails done. 2 00:00:09,313 --> 00:00:12,099 Docuseries people don't care as much as "Housewives. " 3 00:00:16,929 --> 00:00:18,505 Lately, it seems like Mormons 4 00:00:18,540 --> 00:00:20,811 are having a mainstream moment. 5 00:00:20,846 --> 00:00:22,813 I think that a lot of people right now 6 00:00:22,848 --> 00:00:26,548 are associating Mormonism with MomTok and these Mormon wives. 7 00:00:26,583 --> 00:00:30,508 And so that's kind of changed the landscape. 8 00:00:30,543 --> 00:00:33,520 Really, the very first hugely 9 00:00:33,555 --> 00:00:36,131 marketable influencers were Mormon. 10 00:00:36,166 --> 00:00:39,104 Get ready with me using SHEGLAM products only. 11 00:00:39,139 --> 00:00:42,636 - And then it was Pink Peonies, Rachel Parcell, 12 00:00:42,671 --> 00:00:46,098 Cara Loren, Hannah Neeleman, Ballerina Farm. 13 00:00:46,133 --> 00:00:50,137 Conservative values, traditional homemaking roles, 14 00:00:50,172 --> 00:00:52,374 just really a gendered family structure 15 00:00:52,409 --> 00:00:54,576 where they're home with the kids. 16 00:00:54,611 --> 00:00:57,892 It's intoxicating to watch, 17 00:00:57,927 --> 00:01:00,712 because it seems so simple and pure. 18 00:01:00,747 --> 00:01:02,971 Just got done milking. 19 00:01:03,006 --> 00:01:05,160 Got about 2 gallons. 20 00:01:05,195 --> 00:01:07,075 And they seem so happy. 21 00:01:07,110 --> 00:01:10,635 And it seems like, oh, this is how it was always meant to be, 22 00:01:10,670 --> 00:01:14,639 like watching an episode of "Leave it to Beaver. " 23 00:01:15,162 --> 00:01:17,120 That's not how it really is, you know? 24 00:01:17,155 --> 00:01:19,009 That's not really what's happening. 25 00:01:19,044 --> 00:01:20,828 It's a wolf in sheep's clothing, 26 00:01:20,863 --> 00:01:25,085 because it's exactly what the church is going for. 27 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,356 You wanna have all of this? 28 00:01:27,391 --> 00:01:29,089 Join the Mormon church. You can have it too. 29 00:01:29,124 --> 00:01:32,657 That wasn't my experience. 30 00:01:33,354 --> 00:01:35,704 There's a huge misconception about Mormonism, 31 00:01:35,739 --> 00:01:38,881 that it is all unicorns and rainbows 32 00:01:38,916 --> 00:01:40,543 and functioning families. 33 00:01:40,578 --> 00:01:42,371 But the truth is, the church has done 34 00:01:42,406 --> 00:01:46,258 a really good job of shaming and sidelining its critics. 35 00:01:46,293 --> 00:01:50,203 What that's created is this marginalized community 36 00:01:50,238 --> 00:01:54,114 that want to be screaming from the watchtower, 37 00:01:54,149 --> 00:01:56,812 but anyone who has a contrary opinion 38 00:01:56,847 --> 00:01:59,462 is shut out and silenced. 39 00:01:59,497 --> 00:02:02,043 I mean, if people knew 40 00:02:02,078 --> 00:02:04,341 what was really going on in the church, 41 00:02:04,376 --> 00:02:07,649 I think it would shock people. 42 00:02:15,526 --> 00:02:18,355 - At the tone, please record your message. 43 00:02:19,965 --> 00:02:22,446 - Hey, Heather. My name is David Matheson. 44 00:02:22,481 --> 00:02:24,413 You don't know me. 45 00:02:24,448 --> 00:02:26,676 Anyway, I'm hoping- I know that you're 46 00:02:26,711 --> 00:02:28,670 talking to people about their experiences with the church. 47 00:02:28,705 --> 00:02:30,297 Well, I've got one. I hope we can meet, 48 00:02:30,332 --> 00:02:31,890 and I'd really look forward to it. 49 00:02:31,925 --> 00:02:35,155 Thanks. Bye. 50 00:02:35,546 --> 00:02:40,160 I'm headed over to this man David Matheson's house. 51 00:02:40,195 --> 00:02:41,822 The reason he was reaching out to me 52 00:02:41,857 --> 00:02:46,035 is to share his experiences and share stories. 53 00:02:46,070 --> 00:02:49,643 David Matheson was one of the pioneers 54 00:02:49,678 --> 00:02:52,535 of the gay conversion therapy movement. 55 00:02:52,570 --> 00:02:55,357 He sent me this voicemail last night, 56 00:02:55,392 --> 00:02:58,090 and there were a lot of things that I just 57 00:02:58,125 --> 00:03:00,232 felt immediately intrigued by. 58 00:03:00,267 --> 00:03:03,496 He ran a program that was very, very well-known 59 00:03:03,531 --> 00:03:06,186 in the church called Evergreen, which everyone knew, 60 00:03:06,221 --> 00:03:08,057 like, Evergreen, what Evergreen meant. 61 00:03:08,092 --> 00:03:10,155 It meant Evergay, 62 00:03:10,190 --> 00:03:15,804 and you went there to, you know, try to change it. 63 00:03:16,021 --> 00:03:20,068 About five years ago, David came out as gay, 64 00:03:20,103 --> 00:03:23,241 divorced his wife, and denouncing the church. 65 00:03:23,276 --> 00:03:26,345 The guy that was teaching conversion therapy 66 00:03:26,380 --> 00:03:29,165 for and on behalf of the church was actually gay all along. 67 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,560 Nobody talks about negative things within the church. 68 00:03:32,595 --> 00:03:34,135 We don't discuss it. 69 00:03:34,170 --> 00:03:36,259 We don't, you know, dig deep. 70 00:03:36,294 --> 00:03:38,313 We don't investigate anything. 71 00:03:38,348 --> 00:03:41,286 So while I heard about all of these programs 72 00:03:41,321 --> 00:03:44,224 and even had friends that, you know, suffered 73 00:03:44,259 --> 00:03:45,668 from same-sex attraction- 74 00:03:45,703 --> 00:03:47,836 I hate even saying that, but that's the language 75 00:03:47,871 --> 00:03:49,316 that we used as members of the church. 76 00:03:49,351 --> 00:03:51,587 We didn't say, my husband is gay. 77 00:03:51,622 --> 00:03:55,452 We said, he's got this trial and tribulation from God. 78 00:03:55,487 --> 00:03:57,541 You struggle with swear words, sister? 79 00:03:57,576 --> 00:03:58,855 You struggle with coffee? 80 00:03:58,890 --> 00:04:02,459 Well, my husband struggles with sex with men. 81 00:04:02,494 --> 00:04:05,566 I can't imagine the ramifications. 82 00:04:05,601 --> 00:04:08,604 He has to face thousands of young men 83 00:04:08,639 --> 00:04:13,296 showing up on his door, saying, you know, what the fuck? 84 00:04:13,331 --> 00:04:17,953 What life event made him realize that he had to leave? 85 00:04:17,988 --> 00:04:19,833 And I just really wanna ask him 86 00:04:19,868 --> 00:04:24,699 how that shaped the way he views, you know, 87 00:04:24,734 --> 00:04:27,745 his whole life. 88 00:04:29,312 --> 00:04:31,845 I never thought it was gonna look like this, 89 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,405 where people were looking to me to be, like, the public voice 90 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,199 of Mormon critical thought. 91 00:04:38,234 --> 00:04:40,497 What is it, flopping? Or is it erect? 92 00:04:40,532 --> 00:04:42,760 It's erect. Yours is crooked, though. 93 00:04:42,795 --> 00:04:44,510 It works the same in the end. 94 00:04:44,545 --> 00:04:49,289 I don't really hide a lot from who I am on "Real Housewives. " 95 00:04:49,324 --> 00:04:52,527 Putting my life on TV and exposing all of it 96 00:04:52,562 --> 00:04:55,695 and kind of being forced to leave my faith 97 00:04:55,730 --> 00:04:59,494 and talk about it publicly shaped who I became. 98 00:04:59,529 --> 00:05:03,259 I don't wanna ever take away from you, like, 99 00:05:03,294 --> 00:05:06,140 our faith and our Mormonism. 100 00:05:06,175 --> 00:05:08,612 It's come down to where I'm just like, 101 00:05:08,647 --> 00:05:10,936 I owe it to these girls to, like, 102 00:05:10,971 --> 00:05:13,190 be so honest about where I'm at. 103 00:05:13,225 --> 00:05:17,926 And that's been both, like, incredibly transformative, 104 00:05:17,961 --> 00:05:20,859 you know, but also, it's been really hard. 105 00:05:20,894 --> 00:05:23,758 Do you hear from Mormons around Salt Lake City 106 00:05:23,793 --> 00:05:25,673 who are mad about what you say about it? 107 00:05:25,708 --> 00:05:27,583 Yeah, I do. I hear from them a lot. 108 00:05:27,618 --> 00:05:29,424 A lot of them are my family members. 109 00:05:29,459 --> 00:05:32,332 So the only time I've really ever spoken publicly 110 00:05:32,367 --> 00:05:34,255 about, like, a lot of my problems 111 00:05:34,290 --> 00:05:36,466 with the faith outside of the television show 112 00:05:36,501 --> 00:05:38,442 was when I wrote the book "Bad Mormon. " 113 00:05:38,477 --> 00:05:40,801 Has there been any response from the church? 114 00:05:40,836 --> 00:05:43,329 The church is suing me for use of the trademark. 115 00:05:43,364 --> 00:05:45,823 So there's been some- I'm currently in litigation. 116 00:05:45,858 --> 00:05:48,835 There's not a lot of mainstream Mormons 117 00:05:48,870 --> 00:05:52,352 that have written critical memoirs of their faith. 118 00:05:52,387 --> 00:05:54,610 The outreach from former Mormons 119 00:05:54,645 --> 00:05:56,799 and other people does not stop. 120 00:05:56,834 --> 00:05:59,510 There's just an endless sea of people 121 00:05:59,545 --> 00:06:02,152 who have been hurt by the church, 122 00:06:02,187 --> 00:06:03,893 and no one's done anything about it. 123 00:06:03,928 --> 00:06:05,800 We were going to an institution that was homophobic. 124 00:06:05,835 --> 00:06:07,884 It was bigoted. It was misogynistic. 125 00:06:07,919 --> 00:06:09,934 And there was no way for me to explain 126 00:06:09,969 --> 00:06:11,205 that away to my children. 127 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,285 What fascinates me is the church's ability 128 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,158 to get away with it and for everyone 129 00:06:16,193 --> 00:06:17,516 that speaks out against it 130 00:06:17,551 --> 00:06:19,770 to just end up screaming into the void. 131 00:06:19,805 --> 00:06:21,990 Don't need to, like, give the whole spiel. 132 00:06:22,025 --> 00:06:23,391 We're just gonna have... 133 00:06:23,426 --> 00:06:26,734 - But, like, the book became a vehicle for me 134 00:06:26,769 --> 00:06:29,745 to meet people all over the world 135 00:06:29,780 --> 00:06:31,965 with whom the message had resonated. 136 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,576 I'm here to support my other bad Mormons. 137 00:06:34,611 --> 00:06:38,680 - That was the first time I had an awareness 138 00:06:38,715 --> 00:06:42,750 of the platform and the position I was in. 139 00:06:42,785 --> 00:06:44,486 I get DMs. I get emails. 140 00:06:44,521 --> 00:06:46,153 I get stopped at the mall. 141 00:06:46,188 --> 00:06:47,763 I get stopped at the grocery store. 142 00:06:47,798 --> 00:06:52,455 I hear over and over and over how the Mormon church 143 00:06:52,490 --> 00:06:55,197 has affected and hurt so many people. 144 00:06:55,232 --> 00:06:56,859 My kids were taken. 145 00:06:56,894 --> 00:07:00,428 I went against my bishop, asking for help, 146 00:07:00,463 --> 00:07:04,554 and he would just rake me over the coals every month. 147 00:07:04,589 --> 00:07:07,122 And she told me she would rather have 148 00:07:07,157 --> 00:07:09,524 a dead son than a gay son. 149 00:07:09,559 --> 00:07:12,301 We were told that we were something called Lamanites. 150 00:07:12,336 --> 00:07:14,451 They were cursed with a dark skin. 151 00:07:14,486 --> 00:07:16,531 And he taught those who practice 152 00:07:16,566 --> 00:07:19,003 in interracial marriages should be killed, 153 00:07:19,038 --> 00:07:20,796 along with their kids. 154 00:07:20,831 --> 00:07:23,921 They took the baby away. They wouldn't let me see him. 155 00:07:23,956 --> 00:07:25,671 I tried to burn the memory 156 00:07:25,706 --> 00:07:28,543 of what he looked like in my mind 157 00:07:28,578 --> 00:07:33,453 so that I wouldn't forget what he looked like. 158 00:07:33,670 --> 00:07:38,414 - I just had this onslaught of an ocean of pain 159 00:07:38,449 --> 00:07:41,164 and an ocean of trauma. 160 00:07:41,199 --> 00:07:44,485 I hear about everything, from adoption services 161 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:47,736 and the way LDS social services has hurt people, 162 00:07:47,771 --> 00:07:51,296 how eternal marriage and patriarchy has hurt people, 163 00:07:51,331 --> 00:07:55,170 how conversion therapy has hurt people. 164 00:07:55,205 --> 00:07:56,789 The roles of women- 165 00:07:56,824 --> 00:08:00,719 divorce, abuse, betrayal, 166 00:08:00,754 --> 00:08:04,579 misogyny, bigotry, racism. 167 00:08:04,614 --> 00:08:07,443 Every DM, I wanted to, like, meet the person in person 168 00:08:07,478 --> 00:08:11,578 and, like, weep, like biblical women weeping, 169 00:08:11,613 --> 00:08:15,277 just, like, weeping for what was gone 170 00:08:15,312 --> 00:08:16,722 and what we had hoped for 171 00:08:16,757 --> 00:08:19,020 and what was lost and what was gained. 172 00:08:22,937 --> 00:08:25,113 The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 173 00:08:25,148 --> 00:08:27,515 is considered a mainstream religion. 174 00:08:27,550 --> 00:08:30,879 We believe in concepts like Heavenly Father 175 00:08:30,914 --> 00:08:33,910 and Jesus Christ and heaven and hell. 176 00:08:33,945 --> 00:08:36,872 But beyond that, we believe that 177 00:08:36,907 --> 00:08:39,083 there are three separate levels of heaven, 178 00:08:39,118 --> 00:08:41,320 and you have to live a life of perfection 179 00:08:41,355 --> 00:08:43,488 in order to achieve the celestial kingdom 180 00:08:43,523 --> 00:08:46,229 and live together with your family forever. 181 00:08:46,264 --> 00:08:49,898 The Mormon doctrine lays out a path to perfection. 182 00:08:49,933 --> 00:08:53,533 You are asked to keep very, very specific rules 183 00:08:53,568 --> 00:08:56,623 in order to be purged of all sin 184 00:08:56,658 --> 00:08:58,198 and be perfect and with God. 185 00:08:58,233 --> 00:09:01,018 A man has to marry a woman and have children 186 00:09:01,053 --> 00:09:02,507 and live together forever, 187 00:09:02,542 --> 00:09:04,544 making sure you meet all of the standards of the church. 188 00:09:04,579 --> 00:09:06,241 You know, your church attendance, 189 00:09:06,276 --> 00:09:08,730 your worthiness, your purity. 190 00:09:08,765 --> 00:09:10,898 Not just sexual purity, but purity-not smoking, 191 00:09:10,933 --> 00:09:12,699 not drinking, not drinking coffee, 192 00:09:12,734 --> 00:09:14,466 not swearing, not looking at porn, 193 00:09:14,501 --> 00:09:17,557 not looking at R-rated movies. 194 00:09:18,253 --> 00:09:21,047 Devout Mormons masquerade and appear 195 00:09:21,082 --> 00:09:24,389 to be fun-loving, easygoing soccer moms and dads. 196 00:09:24,424 --> 00:09:27,697 We don't wear any of our devotion externally. 197 00:09:27,732 --> 00:09:29,446 We have it all internally. 198 00:09:29,481 --> 00:09:31,744 Secret, sacred, symbolized garments, 199 00:09:31,779 --> 00:09:33,973 secret, sacred temple rituals, 200 00:09:34,008 --> 00:09:37,454 secret, sacred handshakes among members, 201 00:09:37,489 --> 00:09:40,405 our own language, our own way of addressing each other, 202 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,983 our own rules, our own laws. 203 00:09:44,018 --> 00:09:46,063 Everyone associated with Mormonism 204 00:09:46,098 --> 00:09:48,074 struggles with all these rules, 205 00:09:48,109 --> 00:09:51,199 because if you break them, you risk being ostracized 206 00:09:51,234 --> 00:09:53,114 by your church, your community, 207 00:09:53,149 --> 00:09:56,639 and even your family. 208 00:09:56,857 --> 00:10:00,600 The church projects this image of inclusivity, 209 00:10:00,635 --> 00:10:04,821 acceptance, love, humanitarian service, 210 00:10:04,856 --> 00:10:06,745 and diligence. 211 00:10:06,780 --> 00:10:12,098 But if we were to take the PR spin off of all of it, 212 00:10:12,133 --> 00:10:17,834 the doctrine is, at its core, homophobic, misogynistic, 213 00:10:17,869 --> 00:10:20,750 and deeply, deeply bigoted. 214 00:10:20,785 --> 00:10:23,413 A year or two ago, 215 00:10:23,448 --> 00:10:27,343 I was still feeling entrenched in shame 216 00:10:27,378 --> 00:10:31,204 that I chose the lights and glamour 217 00:10:31,239 --> 00:10:35,656 over the dutiful role of devout Mormon mother. 218 00:10:35,691 --> 00:10:40,074 I never wanted to, like, leave or speak out 219 00:10:40,109 --> 00:10:41,606 or criticize the Mormon church. 220 00:10:41,641 --> 00:10:43,860 If the Mormon church wasn't fucked up, 221 00:10:43,895 --> 00:10:45,958 I would have stayed. 222 00:10:45,993 --> 00:10:49,875 But after the onslaught of people 223 00:10:49,910 --> 00:10:51,999 that have reached out to me, I just 224 00:10:52,034 --> 00:10:54,140 feel like I can't look away. 225 00:10:54,175 --> 00:10:57,091 The time is now to uncover all of these secrets 226 00:10:57,126 --> 00:11:00,007 and to give voice to all of these atrocities 227 00:11:00,042 --> 00:11:02,052 that are being committed and to say, 228 00:11:02,087 --> 00:11:04,751 not now, never again. 229 00:11:19,504 --> 00:11:21,942 - I grew up with same sex attraction, 230 00:11:21,977 --> 00:11:23,343 but I didn't want it. 231 00:11:23,378 --> 00:11:26,555 I wanted something more than what I was. 232 00:11:26,590 --> 00:11:29,314 So I began on a journey to find the truth 233 00:11:29,349 --> 00:11:32,004 that could help me become a whole man. 234 00:11:32,039 --> 00:11:34,606 I went to seminars and weekend retreats. 235 00:11:34,641 --> 00:11:36,878 I read books. I got married. 236 00:11:36,913 --> 00:11:40,047 Eventually, I became a counselor myself. 237 00:11:40,082 --> 00:11:42,110 Now I find myself here. 238 00:11:42,145 --> 00:11:44,103 I'm 50 years old. 239 00:11:44,138 --> 00:11:47,889 I'm happily married with a thriving family. 240 00:11:47,924 --> 00:11:51,319 I have helped thousands of men in their journeys 241 00:11:51,354 --> 00:11:53,425 to overcome same-sex attraction. 242 00:11:53,460 --> 00:11:55,462 And now I'm here to help you. 243 00:11:55,497 --> 00:11:57,507 - David Matheson has been a pioneer 244 00:11:57,542 --> 00:12:01,677 in the field of overcoming SSA for over 15 years. 245 00:12:01,712 --> 00:12:04,027 Wow! 246 00:12:04,549 --> 00:12:08,379 I think, first of all, I'm overwhelmed 247 00:12:08,414 --> 00:12:11,661 by the arrogance of the whole thing. 248 00:12:11,696 --> 00:12:14,908 Wow, that feels really terrible. 249 00:12:15,604 --> 00:12:19,673 ♪ ♪ 250 00:12:19,708 --> 00:12:23,743 Oh, my God! 251 00:12:25,875 --> 00:12:28,573 I believed this for a long time. 252 00:12:34,101 --> 00:12:36,407 - Oh, my gosh. - Hi! 253 00:12:36,442 --> 00:12:38,100 Heather. 254 00:12:38,135 --> 00:12:39,724 Oh, my gosh! 255 00:12:39,759 --> 00:12:41,160 I'm so glad to be here. 256 00:12:41,195 --> 00:12:43,327 - Thank you for having me. - Thank you so much. Wow! 257 00:12:43,362 --> 00:12:45,251 This is awesome. 258 00:12:45,286 --> 00:12:46,992 Do you want some coffee? 259 00:12:47,027 --> 00:12:48,659 If you're gonna have some, yeah, I would love some. 260 00:12:48,694 --> 00:12:50,291 Yeah, I made some 'cause I thought you might want some, 261 00:12:50,326 --> 00:12:52,345 and I definitely need some. 262 00:12:52,380 --> 00:12:54,469 Okay. Let me know if that's enough. 263 00:12:54,504 --> 00:12:55,609 Okay. 264 00:12:55,644 --> 00:12:57,428 So when did you start drinking coffee? 265 00:12:57,463 --> 00:12:59,178 This is-I mean, the day you left? 266 00:12:59,213 --> 00:13:00,605 Actually, when the whole thing went down, 267 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:02,607 when I got outed and all of that... 268 00:13:02,642 --> 00:13:04,039 Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. 269 00:13:04,074 --> 00:13:05,401 Start-so when you got outed? 270 00:13:05,436 --> 00:13:07,612 You were out-like, it wasn't voluntary? 271 00:13:07,647 --> 00:13:09,754 It was not voluntary. 272 00:13:09,789 --> 00:13:11,059 I'd divorced my wife already. 273 00:13:11,094 --> 00:13:12,900 And you divorced her because you said I- 274 00:13:12,935 --> 00:13:14,671 It was time for me to be with a man. 275 00:13:14,706 --> 00:13:17,448 I just couldn't do it with a woman anymore. 276 00:13:17,483 --> 00:13:19,764 So I started dating guys. 277 00:13:19,799 --> 00:13:23,855 And then someone, I guess, texted a gay- 278 00:13:23,890 --> 00:13:26,675 an ex-gay watchdog, a guy who watches guys like me 279 00:13:26,710 --> 00:13:28,111 to see, you know, when we foul up, 280 00:13:28,146 --> 00:13:29,199 and then he's gonna out us. 281 00:13:29,234 --> 00:13:30,557 It was nuts. 282 00:13:30,592 --> 00:13:34,909 Like, instantly, like, overnight. 283 00:13:34,944 --> 00:13:37,425 A bombshell on the conversion therapy world. 284 00:13:37,460 --> 00:13:39,906 A popular Utah therapist, who, for years, 285 00:13:39,941 --> 00:13:41,698 tried to convert gay men 286 00:13:41,733 --> 00:13:43,779 is now looking for a gay partner. 287 00:13:43,814 --> 00:13:45,790 - In Utah, we meet David Matheson, 288 00:13:45,825 --> 00:13:48,880 the intellectual godfather of gay cure therapy. 289 00:13:48,915 --> 00:13:51,004 - People are not born gay. Period. End of discussion. 290 00:13:51,039 --> 00:13:52,492 No one is born gay. 291 00:13:52,527 --> 00:13:55,225 There was no way I was going to accept gay. 292 00:13:55,260 --> 00:13:56,888 It just wasn't gonna happen. 293 00:13:56,923 --> 00:13:59,455 So the guy gives me ten minutes, 294 00:13:59,490 --> 00:14:02,319 and I come up with this super lousy statement. 295 00:14:02,354 --> 00:14:03,843 - Oh, my gosh. - And I give it to him. 296 00:14:03,878 --> 00:14:05,026 And then he puts that out. 297 00:14:05,061 --> 00:14:07,107 And then I'm getting calls from newspapers 298 00:14:07,142 --> 00:14:08,943 and from TV shows. 299 00:14:08,978 --> 00:14:11,524 Well, are you glad you left? 300 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:14,035 I'm really glad I got out. 301 00:14:14,070 --> 00:14:16,464 I can't even tell you how glad I am that I got out. 302 00:14:16,499 --> 00:14:18,161 So what made you leave? Like- 303 00:14:18,196 --> 00:14:23,123 Pain. 304 00:14:23,340 --> 00:14:27,518 I'm gonna try not to cry a whole lot. 305 00:14:27,553 --> 00:14:31,661 I spent my life being someone I wasn't. 306 00:14:31,696 --> 00:14:36,092 Do you know how hard it is at 62 to look back 307 00:14:36,127 --> 00:14:39,626 and go, for so many years, I believed 308 00:14:39,661 --> 00:14:44,405 and taught something that I now know is completely wrong? 309 00:14:50,541 --> 00:14:52,857 It's really painful when we say, like, 310 00:14:52,892 --> 00:14:54,894 recognizing that you've been living your life 311 00:14:54,929 --> 00:14:56,108 as someone you aren't actually are, 312 00:14:56,143 --> 00:14:57,252 and that you're really good at it. 313 00:14:57,287 --> 00:14:59,167 That's what I wanted to talk to you about. 314 00:14:59,202 --> 00:15:01,901 When I heard your voicemail, what really resonated with me 315 00:15:01,936 --> 00:15:03,911 was that we'd kind of grown up 316 00:15:03,946 --> 00:15:05,774 with the same cult of personality. 317 00:15:05,809 --> 00:15:07,523 - We did. We did. - You know? 318 00:15:07,558 --> 00:15:10,082 We grew up, like, trying our hardest 319 00:15:10,117 --> 00:15:12,841 to be the best Mormon we could be, 320 00:15:12,876 --> 00:15:15,566 despite the obvious deterrents. 321 00:15:15,601 --> 00:15:17,446 - Problem. Yeah. - Yeah. 322 00:15:17,481 --> 00:15:20,623 - The Matheson family goes back 323 00:15:20,658 --> 00:15:22,617 several generations in Mormonism. 324 00:15:22,652 --> 00:15:24,192 I grew up in this area 325 00:15:24,227 --> 00:15:27,839 in a very Mormon-centric universe. 326 00:15:27,874 --> 00:15:31,417 And I ingested it completely. 327 00:15:31,452 --> 00:15:34,585 I was very into studying the scriptures, 328 00:15:34,620 --> 00:15:36,988 diving into the doctrine. 329 00:15:37,023 --> 00:15:39,743 You were raised in a church that taught you 330 00:15:39,778 --> 00:15:42,428 there wasn't such a thing eternally as gay. 331 00:15:42,463 --> 00:15:46,858 The feeling one gets when one reads this stuff is, 332 00:15:46,893 --> 00:15:49,731 gay is bad because it's just disgusting. 333 00:15:49,766 --> 00:15:51,872 This is an unnatural thing. 334 00:15:51,907 --> 00:15:56,877 Do you think God to be that way? 335 00:15:56,912 --> 00:15:58,392 I admitted to myself that I was gay 336 00:15:58,427 --> 00:15:59,880 when I was, like, 23. 337 00:15:59,915 --> 00:16:03,310 The thought was, I could be gay if I want to, 338 00:16:03,345 --> 00:16:05,320 but I don't want to. 339 00:16:05,355 --> 00:16:07,932 23, after you'd served a mission. 340 00:16:07,967 --> 00:16:10,012 After I'd served a mission. I get married. 341 00:16:10,047 --> 00:16:11,500 They tell me you probably don't need 342 00:16:11,535 --> 00:16:13,167 to tell her about the same-sex attraction, 343 00:16:13,202 --> 00:16:14,799 because it's probably just gonna go away. 344 00:16:14,834 --> 00:16:16,671 You told yourself that, or someone- 345 00:16:16,706 --> 00:16:17,985 They told me. My bishop. 346 00:16:18,020 --> 00:16:19,726 And he says, don't worry about it. 347 00:16:19,761 --> 00:16:21,458 That'll go away when you start having... 348 00:16:21,493 --> 00:16:23,251 - Sex. - Normal sex. 349 00:16:23,286 --> 00:16:25,288 - Oh. - People come into the church 350 00:16:25,323 --> 00:16:27,656 with same-sex attraction issues, 351 00:16:27,691 --> 00:16:29,989 and they tell you, stop sinning. 352 00:16:30,024 --> 00:16:31,520 Don't do it. 353 00:16:31,555 --> 00:16:34,471 You should marry a woman, and she'll cure you. 354 00:16:34,506 --> 00:16:36,664 A year later, I'm like, it didn't go away. 355 00:16:36,699 --> 00:16:38,823 A year into our marriage, I told her 356 00:16:38,858 --> 00:16:41,443 that I was attracted to guys. 357 00:16:41,478 --> 00:16:43,576 She cried and said, I love you. 358 00:16:43,611 --> 00:16:46,135 We'll make it work. Let's just keep going. 359 00:16:46,170 --> 00:16:47,919 And so we did. 360 00:16:49,834 --> 00:16:54,360 We were taught that God loves all of His children. 361 00:16:54,395 --> 00:16:58,887 A loving God would not set people up to fail 362 00:16:58,922 --> 00:17:00,506 by making them homosexual. 363 00:17:00,541 --> 00:17:03,813 I must believe that this homosexual thing 364 00:17:03,848 --> 00:17:09,593 is just a phase, and that God has a way to change that. 365 00:17:09,898 --> 00:17:11,965 And so I wanted to become a therapist. 366 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,365 So I started developing my own stuff. 367 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:16,696 And the idea there was that homosexuality 368 00:17:16,731 --> 00:17:20,604 can be changed if you heal the wounds that caused it. 369 00:17:20,639 --> 00:17:24,921 So shame, trauma, PTSD, all that kind of stuff, 370 00:17:24,956 --> 00:17:27,872 if we heal those wounds, the homosexuality will go away. 371 00:17:27,907 --> 00:17:29,404 Which, I mean, it's that belief 372 00:17:29,439 --> 00:17:31,311 that leads people to conversion therapy, I would think. 373 00:17:31,346 --> 00:17:33,278 - It is. It is. - You know? 374 00:17:33,313 --> 00:17:37,056 So the first thing I was involved with was Evergreen. 375 00:17:39,145 --> 00:17:43,497 So Evergreen started-it was a group of men who were LDS 376 00:17:43,532 --> 00:17:45,594 and were gay and didn't wanna be gay 377 00:17:45,629 --> 00:17:48,032 because they wanted to live the standards of the church. 378 00:17:48,067 --> 00:17:50,460 So they got together, and they started supporting each other. 379 00:17:50,495 --> 00:17:52,245 I got involved just as a participant, 380 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:54,777 and then I was on their board, 381 00:17:54,812 --> 00:17:56,814 and then I was their executive director. 382 00:17:56,849 --> 00:17:59,086 So I became Mr. Evergreen. 383 00:17:59,121 --> 00:18:01,471 I think our larger society has just swallowed 384 00:18:01,506 --> 00:18:03,256 that if you have homosexual feelings, 385 00:18:03,291 --> 00:18:04,483 you're gay. 386 00:18:04,518 --> 00:18:06,824 And if you're gay, you were born that way. 387 00:18:06,859 --> 00:18:09,844 So Evergreen was this fully LDS group, 388 00:18:09,879 --> 00:18:12,830 and it was pretty intensely Mormonism, 389 00:18:12,865 --> 00:18:14,058 the atonement of Christ, 390 00:18:14,093 --> 00:18:16,190 "you can't be gay" conversion therapy. 391 00:18:16,225 --> 00:18:18,314 I have clients that drive nine hours to see me, 392 00:18:18,349 --> 00:18:20,403 because there's just no one out there doing it, 393 00:18:20,438 --> 00:18:22,457 because it's politically incorrect. 394 00:18:22,492 --> 00:18:24,807 So not only was I a conversion therapist, 395 00:18:24,842 --> 00:18:27,453 but whether we liked it or not, we became the poster couple 396 00:18:27,488 --> 00:18:30,065 for mixed orientation marriage, where one person's homosexual 397 00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:31,162 and one person's heterosexual. 398 00:18:31,197 --> 00:18:33,120 And they're trying to make it work. 399 00:18:33,155 --> 00:18:34,678 Eventually, when I found a few different types 400 00:18:34,713 --> 00:18:36,036 of therapy over the years, 401 00:18:36,071 --> 00:18:38,269 my relationship with my wife did improve. 402 00:18:38,304 --> 00:18:40,432 I don't think I was more attracted to her, 403 00:18:40,467 --> 00:18:44,427 but I was less freaked out, and I was less depressed also. 404 00:18:44,462 --> 00:18:46,816 What we're saying is, we are making it work. 405 00:18:46,851 --> 00:18:49,171 And we were saying that because it was, 406 00:18:49,206 --> 00:18:51,081 except it really wasn't. 407 00:18:51,116 --> 00:18:52,922 But we thought it was. 408 00:18:52,957 --> 00:18:54,959 So Evergreen wasn't organized by the church, 409 00:18:54,994 --> 00:18:56,448 but they were very involved in that. 410 00:18:56,483 --> 00:18:58,354 Well, yeah, I thought they were run by the church. 411 00:18:58,389 --> 00:19:00,226 The church never really supported it openly. 412 00:19:00,261 --> 00:19:01,614 - The support- - What do you mean? 413 00:19:01,649 --> 00:19:02,932 They were supporting me financially 414 00:19:02,967 --> 00:19:06,275 in that bishops still paid for some of their members 415 00:19:06,310 --> 00:19:08,120 to come see me. 416 00:19:08,155 --> 00:19:09,896 The church provided 417 00:19:09,931 --> 00:19:12,333 mental health services for members. 418 00:19:12,368 --> 00:19:14,153 And very often, those mental health services 419 00:19:14,188 --> 00:19:16,851 were paid for by the church. 420 00:19:16,886 --> 00:19:18,165 A bishop is calling. 421 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,702 This guy, we're gonna have to excommunicate him 422 00:19:20,737 --> 00:19:23,205 because he keeps acting out with other guys. 423 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,294 The bishop would give you the money 424 00:19:25,329 --> 00:19:27,261 to attend a conversion therapy. 425 00:19:27,296 --> 00:19:29,777 Yes, because we can't have people in our ward being gay. 426 00:19:29,812 --> 00:19:31,300 I don't know-as a bishop, I don't know what to do, 427 00:19:31,335 --> 00:19:33,311 so we're gonna send him to Matheson. 428 00:19:33,346 --> 00:19:35,304 He's gonna clean up the mess created by the theology, 429 00:19:35,339 --> 00:19:37,432 but we're not admitting that that's what's going on, 430 00:19:37,467 --> 00:19:39,526 - if that makes sense. - Like plausible deniability. 431 00:19:39,561 --> 00:19:41,057 Yeah. 432 00:19:41,092 --> 00:19:46,881 So if I was, like, a 19-year-old kid, Mormon kid, 433 00:19:46,916 --> 00:19:49,675 I'm 99% positive I'm gay- 434 00:19:49,710 --> 00:19:51,494 at the height of your conversion therapy, 435 00:19:51,529 --> 00:19:53,200 what would you have said to me? 436 00:19:53,235 --> 00:19:55,542 As you're describing it now, there's this part of me 437 00:19:55,577 --> 00:19:58,684 that is just, like, on the floor, 438 00:19:58,719 --> 00:20:01,156 'cause I don't even wanna think about it. 439 00:20:09,425 --> 00:20:12,959 - Over time, I realized there were a lot of things 440 00:20:12,994 --> 00:20:16,410 that could be taught or experienced on a group level. 441 00:20:16,445 --> 00:20:19,115 So I helped develop workshops and presentations. 442 00:20:19,150 --> 00:20:21,785 And then one of the big things that I helped develop 443 00:20:21,820 --> 00:20:23,970 was called- is called Journey Into Manhood. 444 00:20:24,005 --> 00:20:27,313 - We return now to something called Journey Into Manhood, 445 00:20:27,348 --> 00:20:29,245 a retreat that claims it can help men 446 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,142 alter their feelings of sexual attraction 447 00:20:31,177 --> 00:20:32,587 for other men. 448 00:20:32,622 --> 00:20:34,711 - It was a huge retreat with a lot of processes. 449 00:20:34,746 --> 00:20:37,405 Look at the outside of this man. 450 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,029 Look at his physical appearance. 451 00:20:40,064 --> 00:20:41,509 We're going to dig into your relationship 452 00:20:41,544 --> 00:20:43,198 with your mom and your dad, and we're gonna try 453 00:20:43,233 --> 00:20:45,121 to find out where the problems are. 454 00:20:45,156 --> 00:20:47,333 And we're gonna try to fix that whole thing, 455 00:20:47,368 --> 00:20:48,786 and you're gonna be straight. 456 00:20:48,821 --> 00:20:50,170 So you think if I come here 457 00:20:50,205 --> 00:20:52,229 and I do everything you're telling me to do, 458 00:20:52,264 --> 00:20:54,218 I will be able to get married and have children 459 00:20:54,253 --> 00:20:57,256 and live the life that I've been told I'm supposed to live. 460 00:20:57,291 --> 00:21:00,385 I would have said, yeah, yeah, absolutely. 461 00:21:00,420 --> 00:21:02,754 We thought we really needed to help them 462 00:21:02,789 --> 00:21:05,089 feel more masculine, which means they needed 463 00:21:05,124 --> 00:21:06,578 to be closer to their father. 464 00:21:06,613 --> 00:21:09,093 They needed more distance from their mother. 465 00:21:09,128 --> 00:21:11,574 The entire client base, they were all there 466 00:21:11,609 --> 00:21:13,506 because their religion told them 467 00:21:13,541 --> 00:21:15,369 it was not okay to be gay. 468 00:21:15,404 --> 00:21:17,232 I would always consider myself a heterosexual man 469 00:21:17,267 --> 00:21:20,113 with just- with a lot of, um, issues. 470 00:21:20,148 --> 00:21:24,248 So in this retreat, you are going to give the person- 471 00:21:24,283 --> 00:21:27,851 an adult person, but this was done sometimes with children- 472 00:21:27,886 --> 00:21:30,036 you're going to give them a rebirth. 473 00:21:30,071 --> 00:21:31,659 You put them under a blanket on the floor, 474 00:21:31,694 --> 00:21:33,080 and then people weigh down the blanket. 475 00:21:33,115 --> 00:21:34,467 - We're pulling the blanket. - They sit. 476 00:21:34,502 --> 00:21:35,555 They're holding the blanket down. 477 00:21:35,590 --> 00:21:36,695 We're sitting on the blanket. 478 00:21:36,730 --> 00:21:38,131 Sitting on it or holding it, right? 479 00:21:38,166 --> 00:21:39,602 And then the guy is supposed to fight his way out. 480 00:21:39,637 --> 00:21:42,187 The belief was that men who are gay 481 00:21:42,222 --> 00:21:44,307 don't have a sense of their own power, 482 00:21:44,342 --> 00:21:46,357 and when they feel more masculine, 483 00:21:46,392 --> 00:21:49,612 they realize that the woman is different from them. 484 00:21:49,647 --> 00:21:52,014 And then they're attracted to her. 485 00:21:52,049 --> 00:21:54,278 Another one was, they wrote this letter 486 00:21:54,313 --> 00:21:56,706 from their "golden father"- in other words, 487 00:21:56,741 --> 00:21:58,020 the father they wish they had. 488 00:21:58,055 --> 00:22:00,949 Was there any sort of belief that, like, 489 00:22:00,984 --> 00:22:03,844 gayness came out of, like, a father wound? 490 00:22:03,879 --> 00:22:05,027 Totally. 491 00:22:05,062 --> 00:22:06,934 That makes me sad. I don't know why. 492 00:22:06,969 --> 00:22:08,944 You want to bring up the trauma 493 00:22:08,979 --> 00:22:11,786 so that you can process and heal it. 494 00:22:11,821 --> 00:22:14,559 Healing that was really helpful. 495 00:22:14,594 --> 00:22:16,770 It changed them from depressed and suicidal 496 00:22:16,805 --> 00:22:19,207 to less depressed and suicidal. 497 00:22:19,242 --> 00:22:20,608 I feel joy. 498 00:22:20,643 --> 00:22:23,481 - I'm in a better place now to become a father 499 00:22:23,516 --> 00:22:26,432 and to become that role model that my children will need. 500 00:22:26,467 --> 00:22:27,789 All of it was reinforcing, 501 00:22:27,824 --> 00:22:30,218 oh, my gosh, they are changing. 502 00:22:30,253 --> 00:22:31,706 I am changing. 503 00:22:31,741 --> 00:22:33,526 I'm not gay after all. 504 00:22:36,485 --> 00:22:39,279 ♪ ♪ 505 00:22:39,314 --> 00:22:41,708 I feel like you're barely skimming the surface 506 00:22:41,743 --> 00:22:44,328 of what went on at these retreats. 507 00:22:44,363 --> 00:22:46,147 I've heard there's retreats with touch. 508 00:22:46,182 --> 00:22:48,406 I've heard there's retreats with nudity. 509 00:22:48,441 --> 00:22:50,630 And I'm just curious, like, did you do that? 510 00:22:50,665 --> 00:22:52,814 And what was the therapy behind it? 511 00:22:52,849 --> 00:22:56,853 Okay, so let me answer the retreats with nudity part. 512 00:22:56,888 --> 00:22:58,464 There was a retreat that I was involved with 513 00:22:58,499 --> 00:23:00,918 where there was a lot of nudity, right? 514 00:23:00,953 --> 00:23:03,303 Skinny-dipping, processes where you were 515 00:23:03,338 --> 00:23:06,036 kind of breaking out of clothing and the constraints 516 00:23:06,071 --> 00:23:08,090 of having to hide your body. 517 00:23:08,125 --> 00:23:10,693 So there were all these therapeutic intentions 518 00:23:10,728 --> 00:23:12,094 behind them. 519 00:23:12,129 --> 00:23:14,880 The rumors was, yeah, Evergreen means Evergay, 520 00:23:14,915 --> 00:23:17,744 and it's where you go to pretend that you're struggling, 521 00:23:17,779 --> 00:23:19,667 - but to hook up. - So- 522 00:23:19,702 --> 00:23:22,444 I mean, that's what was spoken of hush-hush. 523 00:23:22,479 --> 00:23:23,628 Yeah. 524 00:23:23,663 --> 00:23:25,621 So I did not experience that. 525 00:23:25,656 --> 00:23:26,718 - Really? - Yeah. 526 00:23:26,753 --> 00:23:27,797 So how did that rumor get started? 527 00:23:27,832 --> 00:23:29,285 So hang on. Let me explain. 528 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,866 So I genuinely didn't see that going on at Evergreen. 529 00:23:31,901 --> 00:23:34,413 Did that stuff happen? I'm sure that stuff happened. 530 00:23:34,448 --> 00:23:36,031 - I did hear- - I welcome that stuff. 531 00:23:36,066 --> 00:23:38,155 It seems to me like an Underground Railroad 532 00:23:38,190 --> 00:23:39,426 for the gay community. 533 00:23:39,461 --> 00:23:41,463 Like, I've heard that you could do back rubs, 534 00:23:41,498 --> 00:23:42,864 but shirts had to be on. 535 00:23:42,899 --> 00:23:44,605 And if you went to a special kind of retreat, 536 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,121 shirts could be off, and you'd do back rub chains. 537 00:23:47,156 --> 00:23:48,870 I heard about cuddle parties. 538 00:23:48,905 --> 00:23:51,473 I heard you could hug, but not for longer than a minute. 539 00:23:51,508 --> 00:23:52,787 Uh, no. 540 00:23:52,822 --> 00:23:54,041 Or not until someone had a reaction. 541 00:23:54,076 --> 00:23:55,747 More like 10, 15 minutes. 542 00:23:55,782 --> 00:23:57,914 - You could hug for 10 minutes. - Mm-hmm. 543 00:23:57,949 --> 00:24:00,173 The cuddling, the touch, the holding, 544 00:24:00,208 --> 00:24:02,412 some of it was written into the program, 545 00:24:02,447 --> 00:24:04,617 like men are going to get in small groups, 546 00:24:04,652 --> 00:24:06,279 and one man will hold the other, 547 00:24:06,314 --> 00:24:08,098 and then they'll switch, and then they'll switch again. 548 00:24:08,133 --> 00:24:10,022 Okay, so it was about, they need male touch. 549 00:24:10,057 --> 00:24:11,580 - Let's give them male touch. - They need male touch. 550 00:24:11,615 --> 00:24:13,016 - Right. - Within God's rules. 551 00:24:13,051 --> 00:24:14,592 Within God's rules. 552 00:24:14,627 --> 00:24:17,564 The idea was, holding is okay, 553 00:24:17,599 --> 00:24:20,467 but not holding in a partnership, 554 00:24:20,502 --> 00:24:23,688 and not holding if it's going to get sexual. 555 00:24:23,723 --> 00:24:28,118 It's kind of like letting the cat smell the salmon 556 00:24:28,153 --> 00:24:30,085 and then putting it away in the cupboard. 557 00:24:30,120 --> 00:24:34,429 So it's like, on the one hand, a recognition of truth, 558 00:24:34,464 --> 00:24:35,961 while at the same time, 559 00:24:35,996 --> 00:24:38,585 we're in denial of that same truth. 560 00:24:38,620 --> 00:24:41,140 I mean, just that we would equate 561 00:24:41,175 --> 00:24:47,094 being gay to trauma and wounds and parental failings, 562 00:24:47,129 --> 00:24:48,495 - you know? - Yeah. 563 00:24:48,530 --> 00:24:52,665 You can't heal the gay out of a person. 564 00:24:52,700 --> 00:24:55,807 I have watched for 30 years 565 00:24:55,842 --> 00:25:00,281 how hope turns into bitterness and disappointment, 566 00:25:00,316 --> 00:25:02,466 how people try things that then don't work, 567 00:25:02,501 --> 00:25:05,286 but it takes them a long time to figure out it doesn't work. 568 00:25:08,115 --> 00:25:10,474 ♪ ♪ 569 00:25:10,509 --> 00:25:13,620 That is so hard to own up to. 570 00:25:13,655 --> 00:25:16,697 - Because? - It's so wrong. 571 00:25:16,732 --> 00:25:19,713 At the time, I genuinely believed it. 572 00:25:19,748 --> 00:25:22,695 I truly did, but it's just so wrong. 573 00:25:24,044 --> 00:25:26,359 When you're raised Mormon, 574 00:25:26,394 --> 00:25:30,137 there's not a future outside of Mormonism. 575 00:25:30,172 --> 00:25:34,193 It is everything. 576 00:25:34,228 --> 00:25:36,883 - A Utah man who was an icon of conversion therapy 577 00:25:36,918 --> 00:25:40,447 now says the practice should be outlawed. 578 00:25:40,482 --> 00:25:43,942 - My coming out was meant to be about me 579 00:25:43,977 --> 00:25:48,068 and about coming into congruity with myself, 580 00:25:48,103 --> 00:25:51,515 about congruity with my wife, 581 00:25:51,550 --> 00:25:54,735 because there was no marriage anymore. 582 00:25:54,770 --> 00:25:58,252 What we were going through, this painful thing 583 00:25:58,287 --> 00:26:01,686 that we were living, as I look back, 584 00:26:01,721 --> 00:26:05,492 I can see the way the pain compounded 585 00:26:05,527 --> 00:26:09,263 year by year by year on both of us. 586 00:26:09,298 --> 00:26:10,664 I tried everything. 587 00:26:10,699 --> 00:26:14,712 And at the end of the day, I couldn't survive. 588 00:26:14,747 --> 00:26:17,184 Like, if there's one message I wanna make sure gets said 589 00:26:17,219 --> 00:26:18,629 over and over and over, 590 00:26:18,664 --> 00:26:21,109 you cannot heal the gay out of a person. 591 00:26:21,144 --> 00:26:24,060 You cannot convert a person from gay to straight. 592 00:26:24,095 --> 00:26:26,323 You cannot pray the gay away. 593 00:26:26,358 --> 00:26:28,891 You just can't. 594 00:26:33,679 --> 00:26:36,595 As hard as it is for you to talk about these practices 595 00:26:36,630 --> 00:26:40,163 that you now have distance and can see the damage 596 00:26:40,198 --> 00:26:41,477 and the pain of all of it, 597 00:26:41,512 --> 00:26:44,341 I mean, I don't think that where we are now 598 00:26:44,376 --> 00:26:46,178 erases what we did then, 599 00:26:46,213 --> 00:26:47,954 but I think it helps us to talk about it. 600 00:26:47,989 --> 00:26:50,095 Yeah. 601 00:26:50,130 --> 00:26:53,098 To say that you spent a majority of your life 602 00:26:53,133 --> 00:26:55,526 not living authentically, that's a painful thing to say. 603 00:26:55,561 --> 00:26:57,319 But does that make your life a sham? 604 00:26:57,354 --> 00:27:01,663 To me, it's like, if you had stayed married, 605 00:27:01,698 --> 00:27:03,587 stayed doing what you were doing, 606 00:27:03,622 --> 00:27:06,363 and then just died with the world never knowing, 607 00:27:06,398 --> 00:27:08,026 that would make your life a sham. 608 00:27:08,061 --> 00:27:10,150 Like, it doesn't matter if you determine 609 00:27:10,185 --> 00:27:12,639 who you are at 18 or at 80. 610 00:27:12,674 --> 00:27:15,677 Like, the day you do, your life stops being a sham, you know? 611 00:27:15,712 --> 00:27:17,636 That's extremely compassionate 612 00:27:17,671 --> 00:27:19,089 for you to say that. 613 00:27:19,124 --> 00:27:20,473 I feel that way. 614 00:27:20,508 --> 00:27:24,077 Who were you most concerned about the fallout 615 00:27:24,112 --> 00:27:25,208 - of your decision? - Her. 616 00:27:25,243 --> 00:27:26,683 - Your wife. - Her. 617 00:27:26,718 --> 00:27:28,089 As it should be. 618 00:27:28,124 --> 00:27:32,389 Yeah, I was ripping her world to absolute pieces. 619 00:27:32,424 --> 00:27:33,617 Someone like her that, like, 620 00:27:33,652 --> 00:27:35,327 married you and had children with you 621 00:27:35,362 --> 00:27:37,161 under the premise that it would lead 622 00:27:37,196 --> 00:27:38,926 to the same promises that you hoped for. 623 00:27:38,961 --> 00:27:42,573 I don't expect your wife to feel or think this immediately, 624 00:27:42,608 --> 00:27:44,802 but you released her and gave her the chance 625 00:27:44,837 --> 00:27:46,904 to stop being a martyr and stop living out of duty 626 00:27:46,939 --> 00:27:48,971 and obligation to her children and to her church 627 00:27:49,006 --> 00:27:51,191 and to her husband, but for herself. 628 00:27:51,226 --> 00:27:52,461 Yeah. 629 00:27:52,496 --> 00:27:54,376 And to hopefully be with a man 630 00:27:54,411 --> 00:27:58,285 who can love her in the way she needed to be loved. 631 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,166 All these years later, here I am now. 632 00:28:01,201 --> 00:28:05,466 I'm in a partnership with a man that, we intend to marry soon. 633 00:28:05,501 --> 00:28:09,731 And of course, with my wife, we have three children. 634 00:28:09,766 --> 00:28:11,437 There are some things I really don't regret 635 00:28:11,472 --> 00:28:13,953 about my younger life, and one of the things I don't regret 636 00:28:13,988 --> 00:28:15,441 is having three amazing kids, 637 00:28:15,476 --> 00:28:18,914 'cause they are beautiful, amazing people. 638 00:28:18,949 --> 00:28:21,229 Looking at my life moving forward, 639 00:28:21,264 --> 00:28:25,660 it's congruent with who I know myself to be. 640 00:28:25,695 --> 00:28:27,875 Mormonism is a cruel culture. 641 00:28:27,910 --> 00:28:30,021 What's weird about Mormonism 642 00:28:30,056 --> 00:28:33,559 is that it's the kindest cruel culture there ever was, 643 00:28:33,594 --> 00:28:37,063 because it does feel like a plushy toy on the outside, 644 00:28:37,098 --> 00:28:38,682 but there's a knife in it. 645 00:28:38,717 --> 00:28:41,720 The younger people, they're in the church going, 646 00:28:41,755 --> 00:28:43,643 I can do this. 647 00:28:43,678 --> 00:28:44,775 The knife's okay. 648 00:28:44,810 --> 00:28:46,703 The knife doesn't hurt that much. 649 00:28:46,738 --> 00:28:48,561 It doesn't feel like abuse, 650 00:28:48,596 --> 00:28:52,086 but a lot of abuse doesn't feel like abuse. 651 00:28:52,121 --> 00:28:56,604 So when I decided to be courageous enough to call you, 652 00:28:56,639 --> 00:29:00,225 it was because I'm this little voice now. 653 00:29:00,260 --> 00:29:02,044 I mean, I used to be a big fish in a tiny pond, 654 00:29:02,079 --> 00:29:04,003 and now I'm a tiny fish in a tiny pond. 655 00:29:04,038 --> 00:29:05,783 And you have a platform. 656 00:29:05,818 --> 00:29:07,493 And I'm watching these kids. 657 00:29:07,528 --> 00:29:09,408 Now they're saying, I'm gonna stay. 658 00:29:09,443 --> 00:29:12,663 I'm in it for the long haul, because scripture power 659 00:29:12,698 --> 00:29:14,282 and the light of Christ. 660 00:29:14,317 --> 00:29:17,494 And I'm terrified because I know what's ahead of them. 661 00:29:17,529 --> 00:29:21,167 The truth is, we both know that these doctrines 662 00:29:21,202 --> 00:29:24,806 and these retreats and these therapeutic practices 663 00:29:24,841 --> 00:29:27,818 are still going on today. 664 00:29:27,853 --> 00:29:31,465 And they're endorsed by the church today. 665 00:29:31,500 --> 00:29:33,519 And I'm kind of over being polite 666 00:29:33,554 --> 00:29:36,696 and pussyfooting around, you know, the church. 667 00:29:36,731 --> 00:29:41,127 They think they're so rich, so powerful, and so immovable 668 00:29:41,162 --> 00:29:43,224 that nobody can effect change. 669 00:29:43,259 --> 00:29:46,262 But no matter how inclusive the church says they are, 670 00:29:46,297 --> 00:29:47,568 - it's not an inclusive church. - It's not. 671 00:29:47,603 --> 00:29:49,100 It's not an inclusive doctrine. 672 00:29:49,135 --> 00:29:50,797 And like you said, it's gonna take people 673 00:29:50,832 --> 00:29:54,401 that were in it deeply saying, this is still going on, 674 00:29:54,436 --> 00:29:57,970 and this is totally harmful, and this has to stop. 675 00:29:58,005 --> 00:29:59,806 And if it's not you that says it, 676 00:29:59,841 --> 00:30:01,408 and it's not me that says it, who's gonna say it? 677 00:30:01,443 --> 00:30:03,410 Who's gonna say it? 678 00:30:03,445 --> 00:30:05,151 Yeah. 679 00:30:14,464 --> 00:30:18,773 - Such a layered experience, meeting David. 680 00:30:18,808 --> 00:30:21,206 You know, I felt immense compassion 681 00:30:21,241 --> 00:30:23,510 and also revulsion at all of it. 682 00:30:23,545 --> 00:30:25,745 And that is kind of, in a nutshell, 683 00:30:25,780 --> 00:30:28,391 what it feels like to have been Mormon for all of your life, 684 00:30:28,426 --> 00:30:30,706 and then to leave it. 685 00:30:30,741 --> 00:30:33,766 We still act as a friend to the church 686 00:30:33,801 --> 00:30:36,791 and as an apologist for the church. 687 00:30:36,826 --> 00:30:37,931 And, "They do a lot of good," 688 00:30:37,966 --> 00:30:39,489 or, "A lot of what they did was great. 689 00:30:39,524 --> 00:30:41,073 A lot of it was problematic. " 690 00:30:41,108 --> 00:30:42,588 Like, no, it wasn't problematic. 691 00:30:42,623 --> 00:30:46,191 It was fucking destructive, painful, and wrong, and false. 692 00:30:46,226 --> 00:30:49,760 Listening to him tell me these stories of conversion therapy 693 00:30:49,795 --> 00:30:52,903 and justifying it in any way, like, 694 00:30:52,938 --> 00:30:55,288 there was a part of me that left my body and was like, 695 00:30:55,323 --> 00:30:56,820 what the fuck? 696 00:30:56,855 --> 00:31:01,424 Like, this is horrible, ridiculous, systemic abuse. 697 00:31:01,459 --> 00:31:04,479 You were retraumatizing these men. 698 00:31:04,514 --> 00:31:08,997 When he said that they would tell these sweet gay kids 699 00:31:09,032 --> 00:31:12,888 that their gayness was a result of a father wound 700 00:31:12,923 --> 00:31:16,744 or a mother wound- can you imagine being a mom 701 00:31:16,779 --> 00:31:18,746 and, like, you see your child suffering, 702 00:31:18,781 --> 00:31:20,756 and not only do you have no support 703 00:31:20,791 --> 00:31:23,403 and you're not even supposed to speak on it or speak about it, 704 00:31:23,438 --> 00:31:25,361 but you're supposed to reject your child. 705 00:31:25,396 --> 00:31:26,980 And then the reason you're supposed 706 00:31:27,015 --> 00:31:28,451 to reject your child is because you fucked them up 707 00:31:28,486 --> 00:31:30,157 in the first place. 708 00:31:30,192 --> 00:31:31,985 It was like- it was just dripping 709 00:31:32,020 --> 00:31:35,894 with shame and responsibility and causality 710 00:31:35,929 --> 00:31:39,384 that is a full-on lie. 711 00:31:39,419 --> 00:31:41,865 And as we pass this church and say, 712 00:31:41,900 --> 00:31:45,077 you know, visitors welcome, as long as you look, 713 00:31:45,112 --> 00:31:48,306 act, and speak like we do. 714 00:31:48,341 --> 00:31:51,265 A person that grew up in the church 715 00:31:51,300 --> 00:31:54,651 is not allowed that privilege to just become 716 00:31:54,686 --> 00:31:56,270 who they were born to be. 717 00:31:56,305 --> 00:31:59,874 And I never, ever had permission to do that, ever. 718 00:31:59,909 --> 00:32:03,443 We always say, when you know better, you do better. 719 00:32:03,478 --> 00:32:06,890 Well, we know what's going on right now. 720 00:32:06,925 --> 00:32:10,232 That's why it's so important now for people to speak out, 721 00:32:10,267 --> 00:32:14,802 because the church continues on unfettered 722 00:32:14,837 --> 00:32:17,544 by the constraints of the trauma 723 00:32:17,579 --> 00:32:18,945 and pain they're causing. 724 00:32:18,980 --> 00:32:22,418 And every day, it's like, the house is on fire, 725 00:32:22,453 --> 00:32:24,899 and if we don't pull these bodies out, 726 00:32:24,934 --> 00:32:27,684 there's going to be devastation. 727 00:32:35,866 --> 00:32:38,368 - The Mormon church may not be one of the world's 728 00:32:38,403 --> 00:32:40,834 largest religions, but its estimated assets 729 00:32:40,869 --> 00:32:43,230 certainly make it one of the wealthiest. 730 00:32:43,265 --> 00:32:46,333 The Mormon church is worth over $140 billion. 731 00:32:46,368 --> 00:32:49,402 And all that wealth and power is concentrated 732 00:32:49,437 --> 00:32:51,717 in the hands of just a few men- 733 00:32:51,752 --> 00:32:53,414 the Prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ 734 00:32:53,449 --> 00:32:56,147 of Latter-day Saints and his twelve apostles. 735 00:32:56,182 --> 00:32:58,950 It's just like this multilevel network 736 00:32:58,985 --> 00:33:01,683 run by men, down to just, like, 737 00:33:01,718 --> 00:33:04,721 150 members in a geographical area. 738 00:33:04,756 --> 00:33:07,689 And that's called your local ward. 739 00:33:07,724 --> 00:33:09,683 The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 740 00:33:09,718 --> 00:33:12,216 owns over 1.7 million acres, 741 00:33:12,251 --> 00:33:14,340 making it the fifth largest landowner 742 00:33:14,375 --> 00:33:15,741 privately in the nation. 743 00:33:15,776 --> 00:33:18,831 - The church also operates a real estate arm, 744 00:33:18,866 --> 00:33:21,347 with temples and churches and seminary buildings 745 00:33:21,382 --> 00:33:23,671 and pastures and farms and fields. 746 00:33:23,706 --> 00:33:25,925 We source all of our own food. 747 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:27,635 We also have a welfare department, 748 00:33:27,670 --> 00:33:29,311 a humanitarian service department, 749 00:33:29,346 --> 00:33:30,930 and we employ, you know, 750 00:33:30,965 --> 00:33:32,671 hundreds of thousands of people. 751 00:33:32,706 --> 00:33:34,664 You are supposed to give 10% of your income. 752 00:33:34,699 --> 00:33:36,705 That is reconciled once a month, 753 00:33:36,740 --> 00:33:38,677 and at the end of the year, 754 00:33:38,712 --> 00:33:40,322 you're forced to sit in front of your local leader, 755 00:33:40,357 --> 00:33:42,028 who knows how much you've been paying, 756 00:33:42,063 --> 00:33:44,283 and they ask you directly, are you a full tithe payer? 757 00:33:44,318 --> 00:33:46,946 And you have to say yes or no. 758 00:33:46,981 --> 00:33:49,418 - If a destitute family is faced with the decision 759 00:33:49,453 --> 00:33:52,769 of paying their tithing or eating, 760 00:33:52,804 --> 00:33:54,998 they should pay their tithing. 761 00:33:55,033 --> 00:33:58,384 - The church, it's not just a beautiful house of worship 762 00:33:58,419 --> 00:34:00,264 and a different specific religion. 763 00:34:00,299 --> 00:34:04,346 It is an indoctrination that requires, like, 764 00:34:04,381 --> 00:34:08,394 secrecy, power, control, big hammers of shame 765 00:34:08,429 --> 00:34:11,318 and guilt and fear. 766 00:34:11,353 --> 00:34:16,489 And, like, that's just a scenario impossible to escape. 767 00:34:25,759 --> 00:34:27,891 It wasn't like I hit some point in my life 768 00:34:27,926 --> 00:34:30,024 where Mormonism started to be a burden. 769 00:34:30,059 --> 00:34:32,940 From the moment I was aware of it, 770 00:34:32,975 --> 00:34:35,329 it supplanted my identity. 771 00:34:35,364 --> 00:34:37,649 I'm the cradle Mormon. 772 00:34:37,684 --> 00:34:39,042 I was born into the faith. 773 00:34:39,077 --> 00:34:41,522 And I loved being Mormon growing up. 774 00:34:41,557 --> 00:34:45,178 My parents were both from Mormon families. 775 00:34:45,213 --> 00:34:47,955 All of our family rituals and family traditions 776 00:34:47,990 --> 00:34:51,367 and family togetherness was centered around 777 00:34:51,402 --> 00:34:54,709 church activities and our church beliefs. 778 00:34:54,744 --> 00:34:57,704 I had these siblings who were my built-in best friends, 779 00:34:57,739 --> 00:35:00,028 and we were all in on it together. 780 00:35:00,063 --> 00:35:03,148 And I didn't feel like it was fake. 781 00:35:03,183 --> 00:35:06,199 Like, yeah, our family's awesome. 782 00:35:06,234 --> 00:35:10,456 But I also distinctly felt like our family was awesome 783 00:35:10,491 --> 00:35:12,292 because we were Mormon. 784 00:35:12,327 --> 00:35:16,331 Mormonism is a religion based on the principle 785 00:35:16,366 --> 00:35:18,198 that the greatest happiness on Earth 786 00:35:18,233 --> 00:35:19,995 can be found within the family. 787 00:35:20,030 --> 00:35:23,817 And the family is the vehicle by which to grow closer to God 788 00:35:23,852 --> 00:35:25,305 and obtain eternal life. 789 00:35:25,340 --> 00:35:29,344 That belief informed the type of family 790 00:35:29,379 --> 00:35:31,572 I wanted to create for myself. 791 00:35:31,607 --> 00:35:34,306 The second I met someone that was willing... 792 00:35:36,003 --> 00:35:39,963 I knew that I had the capacity to make any marriage work 793 00:35:39,998 --> 00:35:41,713 because I loved God, 794 00:35:41,748 --> 00:35:44,185 I loved being Mormon, I was good at being Mormon. 795 00:35:44,220 --> 00:35:49,408 But I was- but I was very, very wrong. 796 00:35:49,930 --> 00:35:52,115 And about three days into my marriage, 797 00:35:52,150 --> 00:35:56,249 I realized that we were fiercely, deeply incompatible. 798 00:35:56,284 --> 00:35:58,895 I thought he was marrying me for all the reasons he wasn't. 799 00:35:58,930 --> 00:36:00,680 And I was marrying him for all the reasons 800 00:36:00,715 --> 00:36:02,908 he did not wanna be a husband. 801 00:36:02,943 --> 00:36:04,779 Divorce wasn't in my vocabulary. 802 00:36:04,814 --> 00:36:09,123 I didn't know anyone that was divorced, but he did. 803 00:36:09,158 --> 00:36:10,568 My marriage was ending, 804 00:36:10,603 --> 00:36:14,259 and my Mormon dream was shattered too. 805 00:36:14,294 --> 00:36:17,697 And my entire life imploded. 806 00:36:17,732 --> 00:36:25,226 ♪ ♪ 807 00:36:28,882 --> 00:36:30,936 - Hey. - Hey! 808 00:36:30,971 --> 00:36:32,255 What's going on? 809 00:36:32,290 --> 00:36:33,504 Oh, nothing. 810 00:36:33,539 --> 00:36:36,672 I was just thinking about you. 811 00:36:36,707 --> 00:36:38,596 Oh, as always. 812 00:36:38,631 --> 00:36:40,467 - One of my very best friends is Shane. 813 00:36:40,502 --> 00:36:43,135 And I met him right after my husband moved out 814 00:36:43,170 --> 00:36:45,753 and I was newly separated for the first time. 815 00:36:45,788 --> 00:36:48,301 And he was newly coming out as a gay man. 816 00:36:48,336 --> 00:36:51,687 And he became, like, the most pivotal person 817 00:36:51,722 --> 00:36:54,873 in my journey out of the church. 818 00:36:54,908 --> 00:36:57,310 Shane as a gay man and me as a single woman, 819 00:36:57,345 --> 00:37:00,827 you know, we were both ostracized from the community. 820 00:37:00,862 --> 00:37:03,281 But, you know, we were publicly 821 00:37:03,316 --> 00:37:05,666 very positive about the church, 822 00:37:05,701 --> 00:37:08,103 for fear of offending our neighbors, 823 00:37:08,138 --> 00:37:13,796 our friends, our families, or our own histories. 824 00:37:13,831 --> 00:37:16,677 I had a really interesting day. 825 00:37:16,712 --> 00:37:18,932 - Tell me about it. - I met with David Matheson. 826 00:37:18,967 --> 00:37:21,291 And it was just so sad. 827 00:37:21,326 --> 00:37:23,719 Some of the things he was talking about were- 828 00:37:23,754 --> 00:37:27,506 I mean, Shane, they were shocking. 829 00:37:27,541 --> 00:37:29,124 Oh, I bet. 830 00:37:29,159 --> 00:37:31,336 While he was talking about all this conversion therapy, 831 00:37:31,371 --> 00:37:33,790 it made me wanna, like, call you, and just- 832 00:37:33,825 --> 00:37:36,175 - Talk about it. I get it. - Yeah! You know? 833 00:37:36,210 --> 00:37:39,300 - It breaks my heart, because while I didn't experience 834 00:37:39,335 --> 00:37:42,390 conversion therapy, I know a lot of people that did, 835 00:37:42,425 --> 00:37:44,531 including Ben. 836 00:37:44,566 --> 00:37:46,699 - Shane has been married to a wonderful man 837 00:37:46,734 --> 00:37:48,840 named Ben for the last eight years. 838 00:37:48,875 --> 00:37:53,271 And when Shane first started dating Ben, 839 00:37:53,306 --> 00:37:55,107 I didn't know Ben. 840 00:37:55,142 --> 00:37:57,165 I knew of him, and I knew that Shane 841 00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,500 was kind of falling in love with him. 842 00:37:59,535 --> 00:38:02,017 But also, I heard that Ben had a story 843 00:38:02,052 --> 00:38:05,517 that was really critical of the church. 844 00:38:05,552 --> 00:38:08,947 So I did a little Google search on Ben. 845 00:38:08,982 --> 00:38:15,293 And what came up were kind of some of his experiences 846 00:38:15,328 --> 00:38:19,645 that he had shared about his abuse as a child. 847 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,340 - When I first started dating Ben, 848 00:38:23,375 --> 00:38:26,965 you kind of pulled away slightly. 849 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,656 And it seemed to be because he was more vocal 850 00:38:30,691 --> 00:38:33,615 about talking about his experience. 851 00:38:33,650 --> 00:38:35,791 Why was that hard for you? 852 00:38:43,538 --> 00:38:45,070 Well, you're right. 853 00:38:45,105 --> 00:38:47,325 I mean, that totally did happen. 854 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:48,769 I pulled away. 855 00:38:48,804 --> 00:38:50,728 And I have never really talked to you about- 856 00:38:50,763 --> 00:38:53,505 I don't think I ever told you that I knew that about Ben. 857 00:38:53,540 --> 00:38:56,211 But-and I don't think I've ever told Ben. 858 00:38:56,246 --> 00:39:01,600 And it's something that has kind of haunted me. 859 00:39:01,635 --> 00:39:02,783 I was scared of it. 860 00:39:02,818 --> 00:39:05,168 And I didn't want it to be true. 861 00:39:05,203 --> 00:39:07,484 I did not want to believe it. 862 00:39:07,519 --> 00:39:09,869 At the time, I was still straddling the fence, 863 00:39:09,904 --> 00:39:12,227 but I had no intention 864 00:39:12,262 --> 00:39:15,100 of facing the truth about the church. 865 00:39:15,135 --> 00:39:19,248 And it was not just being outspoken and critical, 866 00:39:19,283 --> 00:39:23,361 it was about facing the truth about your faith. 867 00:39:23,396 --> 00:39:27,765 - I just wish, you know, as my friend, 868 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,019 we could have gone through this together. 869 00:39:30,054 --> 00:39:31,516 I know. I know. 870 00:39:31,551 --> 00:39:32,979 So much earlier. 871 00:39:33,014 --> 00:39:35,990 I know. I- 872 00:39:36,025 --> 00:39:38,876 you know, so many people reach out to me and, like, 873 00:39:38,911 --> 00:39:41,727 I'm hearing stories from everyone all around the world, 874 00:39:41,762 --> 00:39:44,268 and I'm not sitting down and hearing 875 00:39:44,303 --> 00:39:46,775 the most important stories of the people 876 00:39:46,810 --> 00:39:48,655 I know and love the most. 877 00:39:48,690 --> 00:39:53,913 Would he be open to sharing it with me? 878 00:39:53,948 --> 00:39:56,489 You know what? I don't know. 879 00:39:56,524 --> 00:39:59,026 You know, coming from an abuse victim, 880 00:39:59,061 --> 00:40:01,100 he thinks no one wants to hear it. 881 00:40:01,135 --> 00:40:03,104 He thinks no one will believe him. 882 00:40:03,139 --> 00:40:06,151 You know, that's already ingrained in him. 883 00:40:06,186 --> 00:40:09,189 I mean, I would love the opportunity to be able 884 00:40:09,224 --> 00:40:12,192 to, like, explain to him and make it up to him 885 00:40:12,227 --> 00:40:14,638 and say, listen, I do believe you, 886 00:40:14,673 --> 00:40:17,937 and I believed it, which is why I didn't wanna hear it. 887 00:40:17,972 --> 00:40:21,419 If Ben would be willing, I would give anything 888 00:40:21,454 --> 00:40:23,081 to sit down with him. 889 00:40:23,116 --> 00:40:26,206 - I mean, I would have to ask him 890 00:40:26,241 --> 00:40:29,296 and see how he feels about it. 891 00:40:29,331 --> 00:40:31,381 I appreciate it. 892 00:40:31,416 --> 00:40:33,396 Okay. All right. 893 00:40:33,431 --> 00:40:34,997 Well, it was so good talking to you. 894 00:40:35,032 --> 00:40:36,472 Thanks for talking. I know. 895 00:40:36,507 --> 00:40:37,878 I love you so much, babe. 896 00:40:37,913 --> 00:40:39,227 - I love you too, babe. - Okay. 897 00:40:39,262 --> 00:40:40,960 - Have a good night. - You too. Talk soon. 898 00:40:40,995 --> 00:40:42,457 - Yeah. - Okay. 899 00:40:42,492 --> 00:40:43,919 - Bye. - Bye. 900 00:40:51,971 --> 00:40:57,550 ♪ ♪ 901 00:40:57,585 --> 00:41:01,546 I think what scared me so much about Ben's story 902 00:41:01,581 --> 00:41:04,871 was that I didn't know a single Mormon 903 00:41:04,906 --> 00:41:08,126 that would ever do such a thing. 904 00:41:08,161 --> 00:41:10,250 It was like one of those situations where you see it, 905 00:41:10,285 --> 00:41:11,956 and you just shut your laptop, 906 00:41:11,991 --> 00:41:15,263 because what he was talking about 907 00:41:15,298 --> 00:41:19,485 was so dark and so terrifying to me, 908 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,262 and that was just a reality that was overwhelming 909 00:41:22,297 --> 00:41:25,926 for me to face, so I pulled away. 910 00:41:25,961 --> 00:41:28,320 Of all the people I've had conversations with 911 00:41:28,355 --> 00:41:32,707 and felt like I would do anything to share their story 912 00:41:32,742 --> 00:41:34,413 and to make them feel seen and heard, 913 00:41:34,448 --> 00:41:37,625 and yet, I hadn't even done that to the people 914 00:41:37,660 --> 00:41:40,019 closest to me in my own life. 915 00:41:40,054 --> 00:41:42,247 It feels way overdue, 916 00:41:42,282 --> 00:41:45,503 and so as much as Ben is willing to share with me, like, 917 00:41:45,538 --> 00:41:47,078 I'm gonna make up for the years 918 00:41:47,113 --> 00:41:49,681 where I turned a blind eye and a blind ear 919 00:41:49,716 --> 00:41:53,772 because of my own fears. 920 00:41:55,904 --> 00:41:59,386 - I haven't talked about this publicly. 921 00:41:59,421 --> 00:42:01,658 No one was doing anything. 922 00:42:01,693 --> 00:42:05,305 Like, why didn't they take that information 923 00:42:05,340 --> 00:42:07,237 and give it to the police? 924 00:42:07,272 --> 00:42:09,135 They cover up sex abusers. 925 00:42:09,170 --> 00:42:10,536 No one listened. 926 00:42:10,571 --> 00:42:13,530 - And you're listening. - I am. I'm listening. 927 00:42:13,565 --> 00:42:16,490 This guy was inseminating virgins with his sperm. 928 00:42:16,525 --> 00:42:18,536 He admitted to it, and it got dismissed. 929 00:42:18,571 --> 00:42:19,937 I heard about stories, 930 00:42:19,972 --> 00:42:23,758 but never in numbers like this. 931 00:42:26,413 --> 00:42:28,894 I'm promising that I'll help carry the burden 932 00:42:28,929 --> 00:42:31,544 and I'll be an ally and an advocate. 933 00:42:31,579 --> 00:42:34,160 I just feel overwhelmed and horrified. 934 00:42:34,195 --> 00:42:36,815 And it didn't even happen to me.