1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,440 The computer system Post Office spent an arm and a leg on is faulty. 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:07,640 We're ready to mount and fund an independent review. 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,000 Angela, nice to meet you. Here to help. 4 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:12,280 We are hearing from Bob that your organisation 5 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,120 has been obstructive to his independent work. 6 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:17,760 But this is about the reputation of the Post Office. 7 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,480 You are the Chief Executive, so the buck stops with you. 8 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:25,560 Blood on their hands now. 9 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:27,800 I am told that people are walking out 10 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:29,400 of their mediation meetings. 11 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:30,000 Our lawyers advised that no mediation scheme 12 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:31,800 Our lawyers advised that no mediation scheme 13 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,400 has the power to overturn a criminal conviction. 14 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:36,400 You have broken your words to Parliament. 15 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:38,680 They say there's no remote access to branch accounts, 16 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:40,000 but they're lying. 17 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,360 There was a whole room full of us inside Fujitsu 18 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,080 doing thousands of corrections on Horizon 19 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:47,160 while the postmasters slept. 20 00:00:47,160 --> 00:00:48,920 It may be possible to raise the money 21 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:51,840 to fight them in court, but only if there are enough of you. 22 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,240 How many would you need? At least 500. 23 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:55,520 I can do that. 24 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:52,160 'Hard to believe it's eight years since our first meeting.' 25 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,880 Even harder to believe that finally, 26 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,760 555 of us now, 27 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:00,000 ready to tell our stories to a court. 28 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,920 ready to tell our stories to a court. 29 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,040 That's all fine and dandy, Alan, but... 30 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:07,800 how are we gonna pay for it? 31 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,560 Er, well, James is the expert. 32 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,320 Er, there are a few specialist funders 33 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:17,280 who are prepared to take on this kind of risk. 34 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:21,680 If we win, we pay them back out of your compensation. 35 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:23,680 If we lose, please? 36 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,200 Well, then they lose too. Their entire investment. 37 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,000 It is high risk. 38 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:30,080 It is high risk. 39 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:35,080 Win or lose, it costs a fortune. 40 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,960 And there's no guarantee we'll ever see a penny. 41 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:42,880 And I... I want to make it clear 42 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,840 that there are a few other things this group litigation 43 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:48,640 is not going to do for us. 44 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:51,520 I'm sorry, Jo. 45 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:54,960 Sorry, Noel. 46 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,600 But it's not going to overturn any criminal convictions. 47 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:00,000 It's not going to discharge anyone's bankruptcies. 48 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,120 It's not going to discharge anyone's bankruptcies. 49 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:04,280 One day. 50 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,840 It's not going to... to get back any house repossessions, 51 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:12,480 and it's not going to repair anyone's shattered health. 52 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,600 Or bring back those we've lost. 53 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,320 Well, also, er... 54 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,280 I've got to say, there's a few of us here 55 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,480 who've not much faith in the law after everything that's happened. 56 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,640 Believe in British justice, that's what they say. 57 00:03:27,640 --> 00:03:29,280 Well... 58 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:30,000 I-I've told you all the things the law's not going to do for us, 59 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:34,680 I-I've told you all the things the law's not going to do for us, 60 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:40,360 but I want you to think about... what brought us together. 61 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:46,680 All those things that we've been fighting for ever since. 62 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:48,200 Compensation. 63 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:51,480 Bigger than that. 64 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:52,880 Justice. 65 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:54,720 Bigger. 66 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:56,360 The truth? 67 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,320 CHUCKLES 68 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,000 Exactly. 69 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:00,240 Exactly. 70 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:05,560 Yes, compensation. Yes, justice, but... 71 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,760 without the truth, we can't do either of those. 72 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:13,560 Going to law will force the Post Office to open their files, 73 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:19,320 so, finally, we'll get to know everything the Post Office knows. 74 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:23,240 The truth. 75 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:26,760 The whole truth. 76 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:29,920 All those in favour? 77 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:33,960 Motion carried. 78 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,360 CHEERING AND APPLAUSE 79 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:46,320 CHEERING INTENSIFIES 80 00:04:48,840 --> 00:04:50,840 Yes, it's true that the Post Office 81 00:04:50,840 --> 00:04:53,200 will now have to give us everything they've got, 82 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,280 but it's also true that in fights like this, 83 00:04:56,280 --> 00:04:59,240 the side with more money usually wins. 84 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:00,000 Unless... something extraordinary happens. 85 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,440 Unless... something extraordinary happens. 86 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,600 Our whole case is something extraordinary. 87 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:07,440 Yes. Yes, it is, I couldn't agree more. 88 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:11,560 And what's very striking is how... 89 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,880 many... people... 90 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,040 rang that helpline and were told, "You're the only one." 91 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,640 I asked to see if that phrase was in the helpline scripts, 92 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,400 and the Post Office said, "There are no scripts." 93 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:26,440 Yeah, and anyone who's run a helpline 94 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,480 knows they parrot a script, so it's clearly a lie. 95 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:30,000 So what happened to the principle of "give us everything you've got"? 96 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,960 So what happened to the principle of "give us everything you've got"? 97 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:34,880 Well, whatever we ask them to disclose, 98 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,920 they either say the record doesn't exist, or it's not relevant, 99 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:39,640 and whatever documents they do provide 100 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:41,880 are often pretty much redacted to death. 101 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:45,600 Yes, I get the sense that none of this 102 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:47,120 is coming as news to Mr Bates. 103 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,400 Welcome to my world. ALAN CHUCKLES 104 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:52,840 JO: The price of everything! 105 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,520 I went looking for a dress, but all I could afford is a scarf. 106 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,720 Yeah, love. Love, listen to me. Er... 107 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,240 Did your mum tell you that she had a doctor's appointment? 108 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:05,640 No. 109 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,080 She... 110 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,040 You'd better go and speak to her. She's inside. 111 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,280 I got a new scarf... for the court hearing. 112 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:22,640 Do you wanna see? 113 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,160 I'm sorry, love. I know you don't need this. 114 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:30,000 Don't need what? 115 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:31,680 Don't need what? 116 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,040 I've got cancer, love. 117 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,520 In a place I didn't even know was a place. 118 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:40,000 Pancreas. 119 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:45,360 Does it hurt? 120 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:48,040 Well... 121 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,440 JO SOBS Oh, God. 122 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,680 The look on that doctor's face... 123 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,360 It was me offering him the Kleenex. 124 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:00,000 He wouldn't tell me how long I'd got, but, well... 125 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:00,800 He wouldn't tell me how long I'd got, but, well... 126 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,360 INHALES DEEPLY 127 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:08,680 Not long. Come on. 128 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:16,880 Don't you worry about me. You've got your case to think about. 129 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,480 Oh, I don't care about any of that! 130 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:25,600 Promise me, on my life, you'll see it through. 131 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,000 Promise me, Jo, you won't rest 132 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:31,920 Promise me, Jo, you won't rest 133 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:37,840 till the world sees the innocent babe I held in my arms! 134 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,760 I promise. 135 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:43,600 I promise, Mum. 136 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:45,600 THEY CRY 137 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:53,920 ALAN: Sorry for your loss, Jo. 138 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,240 Five days, we had together. 139 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:00,000 Five more days on this Earth... and my lovely mum was gone. 140 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:04,000 Five more days on this Earth... and my lovely mum was gone. 141 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,240 You really didn't need to come today. 142 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:09,120 No, I made her a promise. 143 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,240 But she's not even buried yet, 144 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,400 so don't ask me what just happened in there. 145 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:19,080 Well, there could be five separate trials, but... 146 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:20,960 they're going to make us wait another year 147 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:22,680 before they even start the first one. 148 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,960 And you won't get called as a witness, Jo. 149 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,000 They won't call anyone who's got a criminal conviction. 150 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:30,720 They won't call anyone who's got a criminal conviction. 151 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,600 Well, I'll still come every day to support you. 152 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,960 Bates and Others versus the Post Office. 153 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,600 I'll be "Others". 154 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,480 I told our lawyers, I said, 155 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,320 "All right, you can put my name on the tin if you want to, 156 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,000 "but that doesn't mean you have to put me in the witness box. 157 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:53,920 "Choose the best people." 158 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,120 Alan... 159 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,240 you ARE the best people. 160 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:01,760 PATRICK: 'So, listen to this. 161 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,320 'Three years ago, Paula Vennells wrote...' 162 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,560 Is it possible to access the system remotely or not? 163 00:09:08,560 --> 00:09:11,120 "We are told it is," 164 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,680 and Paula then asks her managers, "What is the true answer?" 165 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,600 "I need to say, 'No, it is not possible 166 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,640 " 'and that we are sure of this because of X, X, X.' 167 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:23,920 "I need the facts." 168 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:25,240 Wow, OK. 169 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,160 That is an email of Paula's that arrived this morning 170 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,000 in a disclosure bundle, and it wasn't even redacted. 171 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:31,120 in a disclosure bundle, and it wasn't even redacted. 172 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:32,880 Well, this is... this is fundamental. 173 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,200 If we can prove they have remote access to your computers, 174 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,880 then, I mean, that means all the criminal convictions are unsafe. 175 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,240 Look forward to hearing you ask her about that in court, Patrick. 176 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,240 Unfortunately, the Post Office also sent across 177 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,320 their final list of witnesses this morning, and... 178 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,680 Paula Vennells is not on it. 179 00:09:49,680 --> 00:09:52,720 Ha! Brilliant (!) 180 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:57,680 What? What's she worried about? That is a very strange decision. 181 00:09:57,680 --> 00:09:59,480 Who are they putting up instead? 182 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:00,000 Er, the Peoples Services Director... 183 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,000 Er, the Peoples Services Director... 184 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:03,560 Angela van den Bogerd, yes. 185 00:10:03,560 --> 00:10:05,480 She's had more job titles than hot dinners. 186 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:07,480 She's like a stick of Blackpool rock 187 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:09,720 with "Post Office" written all the way through. 188 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:11,840 And she's a hard-faced cow. 189 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,400 Excellent. Tell us how you really feel about her (!) 190 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,800 Ha! Well, who am I? No, no, Alan. Wait, wait, wait. 191 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:19,560 There is a possibility that Patrick 192 00:10:19,560 --> 00:10:22,800 can still question Angela on remote access. 193 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:27,320 Er, where is it? This is from Angela's witness statement. 194 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,000 "Sub-postmasters are solely responsible 195 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:31,080 "Sub-postmasters are solely responsible 196 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:32,440 "for their branch accounts. 197 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:36,080 "There is no transaction that enters their accounts 198 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:37,800 "without their consent." 199 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:40,440 Well, that's just not true. 200 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:43,640 And we know a man who can prove it. 201 00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:46,600 What, you've got a whistleblower? 202 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,680 You'd be right inside, looking at some postmaster's screen. 203 00:10:51,680 --> 00:10:54,360 You could tell if he was busy, you could see him selling his stamps. 204 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:56,760 Remote access? Sometimes. 205 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:58,040 Not often. 206 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:00,000 We'd go in using the postmaster's ID, 207 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:01,840 We'd go in using the postmaster's ID, 208 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,720 find the cause of his problems, fix it, come back out. 209 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:07,440 He'd never even know. 210 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:12,400 What, so, it would look like... like he'd made the changes himself? 211 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,320 Yeah. 212 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:16,400 Richard, what if you couldn't fix it? 213 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,160 What if you... couldn't find a cause? 214 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,960 I don't know. The postmaster took the blame? 215 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:30,000 I can't remember much detail. 216 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:30,760 I can't remember much detail. 217 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:34,400 And like I said to Alan, I'm not prepared to go to court 218 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,400 or stick my neck out in any way whatsoever. 219 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,360 Sure, sure. 220 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:44,280 No, no, it's not just that Richard is too shy to give evidence. 221 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:48,520 He's got no evidence to give, no documents, no email. 222 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,480 Alternatives? No, we really need him. 223 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,040 He's still the only Fujitsu insider to ever come forward. 224 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,800 I meant ties. Oh. Er... 225 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:00,000 Oh, maroon or maroon. Hm? 226 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:01,000 Oh, maroon or maroon. Hm? 227 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:02,760 SUZANNE CHUCKLES 228 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,120 Oh, I'm not even gonna ask. 229 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,640 One thing I took from the Select Committee 230 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:12,680 is it really helps to use your face. 231 00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:16,760 You know, confused, sceptical, amused. 232 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:18,240 THEY CHUCKLE 233 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,560 And that's your masterplan for the group litigation, 234 00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:21,960 make faces at the Post Office? 235 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:29,680 555 sub-postmasters in our group, 236 00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:30,000 and I have to go on first. 237 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:31,960 and I have to go on first. 238 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:39,520 I do solemnly and sincerely and truly declare and affirm 239 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,200 that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, 240 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,200 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. 241 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,200 Good morning, Mr Bates. 242 00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:05,520 Mr Bates, would it be right to say that in terms of due diligence, 243 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:07,880 you are quite a careful man? 244 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,080 Is that fair? You're a details man. 245 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:13,680 Yes. 246 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:15,520 At paragraph 15 of your witness statement, 247 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,040 you refer to being sent an information sheet. 248 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:23,040 "The subpostmaster is personally responsible 249 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:29,160 "for all losses or gains incurred to Post Office cash or stock." 250 00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:32,960 You were aware you would be responsible for that loss, 251 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:34,800 however large it was. 252 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,720 At the time we took over the post office, 253 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,720 losses weren't a major concern. 254 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:47,880 The original deficit of £1,182... 255 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:49,440 that is a staff error, isn't it? 256 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:50,720 No. 257 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,040 No, that was, er... 258 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:58,000 that was definitely Horizon, from my point of view. 259 00:13:58,000 --> 00:13:59,280 Without a shadow of a doubt. 260 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:00,000 You've got it in your mind it was Horizon, 261 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:01,720 You've got it in your mind it was Horizon, 262 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,560 and forevermore, it has been Horizon. 263 00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:05,840 No. Well, it jumped out. 264 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,280 The errors jumped out. 265 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,520 They couldn't have been anything else. 266 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,200 I put to you generally that the overwhelming likelihood 267 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,800 is that these deficits were most likely caused by error 268 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:23,720 or wrongdoing in your branch by you or your staff. 269 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:26,960 That is the Post Office case. 270 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,160 Mr Bates, that is being put to you 271 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:37,040 so that you can tell me what the answer is. 272 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:38,520 No, My Lord. 273 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:41,880 No. 274 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:47,600 No further questions. Thank you. 275 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,880 Thank you, Mr Bates. You are excused. 276 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,320 "A details man". Might use that at home. 277 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,440 Alan did OK, I think. Just so glad he went first. 278 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,080 DISTANT: You're gonna be brilliant. 279 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,840 I took over Barking Post Office when my husband died 280 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,080 on August 3rd, 1999. 281 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,680 So some 19-odd years ago. Mm. 282 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,600 It's fair to say your memory of the details 283 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:16,760 is probably pretty vague. 284 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,760 Is that fair? No, I don't think so. 285 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:21,760 Not particularly stunning events, are they, 286 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,120 like a car crash or something - is that fair? 287 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,000 If you are talking about August 1999, 288 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:31,800 If you are talking about August 1999, 289 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:36,280 then, yes, they are very similar to a car crash. 290 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:40,280 You are talking about your husband's death? 291 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:41,760 Yes. 292 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,280 Yes, I... I accept that. 293 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,000 Moving, then, forward to your suspension 294 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:55,240 following the £18,000-odd deficit found on the audit. 295 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,240 Well, I was staggered that I was suspended. 296 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,000 Absolutely staggered. 297 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:00,440 Absolutely staggered. 298 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,880 I was probably as angry and upset as I have ever been in my life. 299 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:10,080 Because, for the last six months, I had been asking Post Office 300 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,160 to help me find the source for these alleged shortfalls 301 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,320 in order that I could... 302 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:17,280 How can I put it? 303 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,600 ..that it would stop me from bombarding them 304 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,080 with phone calls, letters. 305 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:22,600 A lot of people might think, 306 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,120 "Well, I've received this letter. Let's look at my contract." 307 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:30,000 Let's look at section 19, paragraph four, 308 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:30,040 Let's look at section 19, paragraph four, 309 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,000 and see whether they are entitled to. 310 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:33,880 Well, I couldn't do that. 311 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:35,720 I had no entry to my post office 312 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,000 from the day they did the closing audit. 313 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,160 They took the keys away and locked them up. 314 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,320 But my point is, you immediately blame it on Horizon 315 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,800 without really casting your mind as to other possibilities. 316 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:46,280 I dispute that completely. 317 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,800 I never used to be an angry person. 318 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,000 And it really works, doesn't it? I wouldn't know, I don't get angry. 319 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:00,600 And it really works, doesn't it? I wouldn't know, I don't get angry. 320 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:02,640 Oh, well, I should give it a go, Alan. 321 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,000 Otherwise, the stress of all this might end up killing you. 322 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:06,200 ALAN CHUCKLES 323 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,680 Well, the Post Office chose three witnesses, 324 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:10,320 and we chose three witnesses. 325 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:16,200 The Post Office has read 555 postmaster statements. 326 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:17,520 Why they chose me? 327 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:19,320 So, they chose Mohammad Sabir 328 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:21,800 because he has an accountancy qualification. 329 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,400 So just watch them try to make him look stupid as well as dishonest. 330 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,280 Do you accept from me 331 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,000 that being involved over a period of years 332 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:31,480 that being involved over a period of years 333 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,680 as an assistant accountant 334 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,800 means that I can consider you as not commercially naive? 335 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,000 I did not understand your question, please. 336 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:45,640 Rephrase it, Mr Wentworth. 337 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,400 As at the time you applied to Post Office, yes, 338 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,360 you were not commercially naive? 339 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,280 My Lord, English is not my first language. 340 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,000 You had experience of commercial things. 341 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:00,440 You had experience of commercial things. 342 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:01,680 You weren't... 343 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:05,720 It's put me on the spot, trying to rephrase this. 344 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:07,600 At that time, 345 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,600 I was just thinking to buy the business, run it, 346 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,360 make my life better and serve the community. 347 00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:16,000 This was my main ambition. 348 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,080 So if I am clear, honest, 349 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,680 so I don't be afraid of signing any contract with anybody, 350 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,280 assuming that they are doing everything for goodness of me. 351 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,280 And I had already positive thinking about this. 352 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,160 OK, I think you would agree 353 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:30,000 that a deficit of £4,878 is a serious matter. 354 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:34,480 that a deficit of £4,878 is a serious matter. 355 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,200 Do you agree with that? No, I didn't agree. 356 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,280 I told them everything, what was the problem. 357 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:44,000 Have you read all the documents which I submitted? 358 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,040 I rang the Post Office helpline. 359 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:48,760 "Please, can somebody ring me 360 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,000 "or come to my office and resolve this problem?" 361 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,760 But they said, "We don't believe you. 362 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:54,440 "We have to suspend you." 363 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,440 I never thought that I will lose everything 364 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,680 when I will be working in the post office. 365 00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:06,160 We are supposed to be the most civilised country. 366 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,880 We don't expect anyone to behave like the Post Office does. 367 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:10,080 Why they do this? 368 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,160 Well, that's the million-dollar question. 369 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,800 The QC was very clever. Pick, pick, picking away at stuff. 370 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:18,920 You did everything right, Mohammad. 371 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,200 You told the truth, and that's all that matters. 372 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:22,960 Truth is truth. 373 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,800 Truth is truth. Can't hide it. 374 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:34,520 Well, that was brilliant. They chose him, and he smashed them. 375 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,440 Just a... pile of ash where the Post Office used to be. 376 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,720 Well, we've got Angela van den Bogerd 377 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:42,440 in the witness box tomorrow. Yep. 378 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,040 You get to ask the questions. I do. 379 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,480 And I've got plenty. 380 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,280 We get to see if we picked the right man for the job. 381 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:53,600 THEY CHUCKLE 382 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:56,480 Miss Van den Bogerd, 383 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,000 if we could please look at document G43/1. 384 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:00,160 if we could please look at document G43/1. 385 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,360 So, this is co-authored by you. 386 00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:06,520 "Horizon Help has, since its introduction over a decade ago, 387 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,800 "fallen short of delivering the functionality that was promised 388 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:11,800 "as part of Horizon roll-out 389 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,440 "and that postmasters and their assistants desperately need." 390 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:18,600 Yes. 391 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,040 That is an honest and candid internal recognition 392 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:22,400 of the situation, isn't it? 393 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,760 There were shortcomings in the user experience. 394 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,560 It's... SHE SIGHS 395 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:30,000 It's clunky, would be the word I would use. 396 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,080 It's clunky, would be the word I would use. 397 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,680 Clunky? Mm-hm. 398 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,720 Right. So why don't you mention this in your witness statement? 399 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:47,680 I don't... 400 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:55,000 I suppose the length of my witness statement, erm... 401 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,920 it's so long anyway that... 402 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,000 Was it your understanding that there was a restriction 403 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:00,880 Was it your understanding that there was a restriction 404 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,160 on the length of your witness statement? 405 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,680 The witness statement in itself is quite lengthy anyway, 406 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,680 and so... I suppose it was just myself. 407 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:13,600 Mr Green. 408 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:18,480 If we could go, please, to document G38/2. 409 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,360 It says, "January 30, 2015. 410 00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:25,480 "Mrs Vennells asks, 411 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,600 " 'Is it possible to access the system remotely?' 412 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,000 "I need to say no, it is not possible, 413 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:30,800 "I need to say no, it is not possible, 414 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:32,560 "and that we are sure of this." 415 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:35,840 So in 2015, it would be wrong to say, wouldn't it, 416 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,400 that Post Office couldn't remotely access Horizon data? 417 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,480 Post Office can't. 418 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:47,760 Could you do it through Fujitsu? 419 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,120 Through Fujitsu... 420 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:03,000 ..yes, I can. 421 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,320 CROWD MUTTERS 422 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:07,720 SOFTLY: Yes. 423 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,040 You're going to have to keep your voice up, I'm afraid. 424 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,600 I'm sorry. Sorry. 425 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,680 I suggest you are hesitant to accept 426 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:16,920 anything that is damaging to Post Office. 427 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:18,440 That is not the case. 428 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,840 Do you feel pressure to protect the Post Office brand now? 429 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:24,480 At this particular moment? 430 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,600 Yes. No. 431 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,520 Can I just ask one simple question? 432 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,000 What exactly does "protecting a brand" mean? 433 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,680 What exactly does "protecting a brand" mean? 434 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,640 It-It... It just means that, erm... 435 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,480 One, it is making sure that how we do things, 436 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,880 how we behave, how we interact with people. 437 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:48,480 And it's... 438 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,440 It's just making sure that, at all times, 439 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,840 we are maintaining that. 440 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,240 CROWD MUTTERS 441 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,520 BIG BEN TOLLS, FIREWORKS BANG 442 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,120 Made it past midnight. That's pretty good for me. 443 00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:14,240 HE CHUCKLES 444 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:18,240 All the meetings with MPs, letters to the minister. 445 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,760 More ministers than you can shake a stick at. 446 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,360 Years and years. 447 00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:26,960 Still, nobody in power hears a word we say. 448 00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:30,000 What's brought this on? 449 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:30,840 What's brought this on? 450 00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:34,880 New Year's Honours list. God's sake. 451 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,480 Come on, turn it off, details man. Come to bed. 452 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,640 Paula Vennells has got the CBE. Joking... 453 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,800 Services to the Post Office. 454 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,200 SHE GASPS 455 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,040 Always another trick up their sleeves. 456 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:53,640 HE CHUCKLES 457 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,560 I'll see you up there. 458 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,880 The Post Office now admits they do have remote access, 459 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,640 but they insist it could never happen without the knowledge 460 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,560 and permission of the sub-postmaster. 461 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,880 Well, they're wrong. Of course they are. 462 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,320 But it's 15 years ago. More. 463 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:18,560 I... can't remember the details. 464 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,400 I can't help you, Alan. There must be someone else. 465 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,560 It's not that bad, honestly. 466 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,000 There'll be loads of other witnesses. 467 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,800 There'll be loads of other witnesses. 468 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:37,040 I wasn't senior, Alan. Not at all. 469 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,240 And my girlfriend really doesn't want me drawing attention to myself. 470 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,640 You just have to talk to the judge. Ignore everyone else. 471 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,760 You can really help us out here, Richard, 472 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,280 and still be home for your tea. 473 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,280 I'll only disappoint you. 474 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,200 You'll be fine. 475 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,000 BOB: 'Jo?' 476 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,400 Bob, what are you doing here? 477 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,680 Oh, I wouldn't miss this for the world. 478 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:16,160 Fujitsu technical support giving evidence under oath. 479 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:20,400 The guy's quite shy. Alan's worried about him. 480 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,120 A real-life whistleblower. 481 00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:24,520 It's gonna be dynamite, kid. Mm. 482 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,440 Mr Roll... 483 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,000 Would you accept that your recollection of your time 484 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:30,200 Would you accept that your recollection of your time 485 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,840 at Fujitsu is hazy? 486 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,560 It is quite hazy. 487 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,440 It could just be my perception of events from, er... 488 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,480 ..15, 17 years ago. 489 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,200 So you're not saying that you were 490 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,800 routinely encountering coding issues, are you? 491 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:50,840 Bugs? No, no. 492 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,960 You don't recall ever having encountered a bug 493 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,720 that definitely caused a financial impact? 494 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,000 I don't... recall discovering one, no. 495 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,240 I don't... recall discovering one, no. 496 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:05,600 I'm going to move on to remote access now, Mr Roll. 497 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,080 My suggestion to you will be that you never 498 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:12,400 and would never manually change a transaction line of data 499 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,720 that a postmaster had keyed in. 500 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:19,400 No, that is something we did, as far as I remember it. 501 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,360 But ultimately, the sub-postmaster would be able to see 502 00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:25,200 what Fujitsu had done, is that true? 503 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:30,000 Again, my understanding is that in certain circumstances, 504 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:30,480 Again, my understanding is that in certain circumstances, 505 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,520 the data would be indis... erm... 506 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:35,400 Indistinguishable? 507 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,680 Yes. Is that what you're trying to say? 508 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,520 Yes, my Lord. 509 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,400 You couldn't tell the difference. 510 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,440 No, you... you couldn't tell the difference. 511 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:56,280 Remote access to the Horizon system at branch level was extensive. 512 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,000 We had the ability to change data and change transaction information, 513 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:01,000 We had the ability to change data and change transaction information, 514 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,920 even while the postmaster was working. 515 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,000 Without the postmaster being aware? 516 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,400 Yes, that is my understanding. 517 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,200 Your understanding? 518 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:12,600 No. 519 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:15,400 My recollection. 520 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,120 'Thought he was great in the end.' 521 00:27:22,120 --> 00:27:23,880 I wonder if it's enough. 522 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,000 I asked you a question, Bob, years ago, when we first met. 523 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:31,640 I asked you a question, Bob, years ago, when we first met. 524 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,480 "Bob, where did all the money go?" 525 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,880 £36,000, they took off me. 526 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:41,960 Now, I think - 527 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,280 I can't prove it, Jo, not yet, but I will - 528 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,960 that the money you gave them that they claimed you owed them... 529 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,640 hung around in some sort of suspense account for a while 530 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,240 while they failed to investigate. 531 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,000 And after a couple of years, your money, everyone's money... 532 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:01,640 And after a couple of years, your money, everyone's money... 533 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,560 ..it just showed up in their profits. 534 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,880 My £36,000 that I didn't steal, 535 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,800 that they actually stole off me to pay off a debt 536 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:15,280 that never existed... 537 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,560 ..is in the Post Office profits. 538 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,320 I just.... 539 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:29,360 I mean, are they just incompetent, Alan, or just evil? 540 00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:30,000 Er, well, you know, comes to the same thing in the end. 541 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:35,480 Er, well, you know, comes to the same thing in the end. 542 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,240 Another one? Please. 543 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:38,760 Definitely. 544 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,520 The Post Office describes itself on its own website 545 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,520 as "the nation's most trusted brand". 546 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,960 Well, as far as these claimants are concerned, 547 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,960 this might be thought to be wholly wishful thinking. 548 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,000 The Post Office witnesses give me the impression 549 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,560 The Post Office witnesses give me the impression 550 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,600 that they simply cannot allow themselves 551 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,840 to consider the possibility that the Post Office may be wrong, 552 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:12,520 as the consequences of doing so are too significant to contemplate. 553 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:17,520 Angela van den Bogerd did not always give me frank evidence. 554 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,480 She sought to mislead me. 555 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,120 Her judgment also seemed to be uniquely exercised 556 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,680 to paint the Post Office in the most favourable light possible, 557 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,320 regardless of the facts. 558 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:30,000 Mr Bates seemed to me to offer his evidence honestly and... 559 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,280 Mr Bates seemed to me to offer his evidence honestly and... 560 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:39,320 "..has proved himself to be unreasonable, stubborn 561 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,920 "and a considerable irritant to the Post Office." 562 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:44,400 He's got you to a T. 563 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:45,760 CHUCKLES Yeah, yeah. 564 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,480 And the Post Office, too. 565 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,680 Er, "Oppressive, unfair, excessive secrecy" 566 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,400 and, well, 180,000 other words just the same. 567 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:55,560 GIGGLES 568 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,360 Sorry, we've got to get back into court now. 569 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,000 Why? Something's come up. 570 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:00,920 Why? Something's come up. 571 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,240 Hold on, love. 572 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,160 'I just saw this five minutes ago.' 573 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,560 It's an application for me to recuse myself 574 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,200 as being the managing judge in these proceedings. 575 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,160 Mr Wentworth, would you care to elaborate? 576 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,440 Post Office asked the judge to sack himself 577 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,440 on the grounds that he's clearly biased against the Post Office. 578 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:24,080 Amazing. This is the best day ever. It's like a gift from heaven. 579 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,360 Proof they're desperate. Absolutely. 580 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:27,560 I mean, in my world, Alan, 581 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,000 the most, er, catastrophic mistake you can make 582 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:30,200 the most, er, catastrophic mistake you can make 583 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,120 is to make unfounded allegations of bias against the judge. 584 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,360 I mean, you just... you... I've never even... 585 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:37,560 They're idiots. 586 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,000 I bet you it wasn't the lawyers who decided to do this. 587 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,160 I bet it came from the Post Office boardroom. 588 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,560 Oh, well, to be a fly on the wall, eh? 589 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,000 Well, we're winning. 590 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,320 Well, yes, but... 591 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,920 Oh, I should have known there was a "but" coming over the hill. 592 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,080 Well, the trial stops now. 593 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,000 It'll be weeks, well, months of arguments to follow 594 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,400 It'll be weeks, well, months of arguments to follow 595 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,120 on whether we need a new judge. 596 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:07,840 And it's a delay the Post Office can afford, but we can't. 597 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,600 That's why they're doing this, to make us run out of money. 598 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,040 Alan... we have run out of money. 599 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,960 No. 600 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,280 No, no, we can't stop now. 601 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,560 No-one's talking about stopping. Not at all. 602 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:36,920 But... it is time to start... 603 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,320 ..negotiating a settlement. 604 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,560 HE CHUCKLES 605 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,280 I think you're forgetting 606 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,600 I've negotiated with this mob before, 607 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,680 and people have died. 608 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,000 Well, people are still dying. 609 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,080 You know this, all right, but nobody else does. 610 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,920 There's millions of people out there who've never heard of us, 611 00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:00,000 who don't know about the suicides and the... the ruined lives. 612 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,880 who don't know about the suicides and the... the ruined lives. 613 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,000 God knows how many victims who are... 614 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,440 who are still too scared to come forward. 615 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:17,560 Ha! I haven't spent 20 years battling these bastards 616 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,240 to pack up now and give the Post Office license 617 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,040 to start running amok and destroying lives. 618 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,080 Again. 619 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:26,680 Well... 620 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:30,000 Well, I-I've said enough. 621 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:30,560 Well, I-I've said enough. 622 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:34,960 We have to win. 623 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,000 Alan, we just did. 624 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,360 This is what winning looks like. 625 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,120 You're talking as though this is a defeat, 626 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:47,960 and it's... it's really not. 627 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,480 This is just what happens towards the end of any litigation - 628 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,080 we get around the table. 629 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,320 And if we don't and we lose in that arena, 630 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,560 we lose everything we've achieved so far 631 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:58,280 and the clock sets back to zero. 632 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,000 So... it's about knowing when to stop and when to negotiate. 633 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,280 So... it's about knowing when to stop and when to negotiate. 634 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,840 So that's it, give up now. 635 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,320 No, no. We... settle. 636 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:17,680 Same thing. 637 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,680 MAN: Mrs Vennells? Paula Vennells? 638 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,720 Yes? Ned Foster, Daily Mail. 639 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,840 Would you like to say anything to the postmasters 640 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:43,680 who've been through such a long legal battle? 641 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,760 No. I really find this unacceptable. 642 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,720 Would you like to apologise to them? Will you just... go away? 643 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,640 So, you won't apologise to them? No, pl... Go away. 644 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:54,600 Well, can I confirm, then, Mrs Vennells, 645 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,200 you're saying you will not apologise to the postmasters 646 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,160 after everything that they've been through? 647 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:00,000 NEWSREADER: 'After an epic legal battle 648 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:00,800 NEWSREADER: 'After an epic legal battle 649 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:02,920 'during which the Post Office tried and failed 650 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,920 'to remove the judge, the sub-postmasters have won 651 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:07,560 'on almost every count. 652 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,000 'Their victory comes with a compensation package 653 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,200 'worth £58 million.' 654 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,480 Well... You took them on, and you won. 655 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:21,680 And I cannot overstate enough quite the scale of this achievement. 656 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,240 It is more than we could ever have dreamed of from the beginning. 657 00:34:24,240 --> 00:34:27,360 It is an absolutely astonishing victory. 658 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,080 In my professional career, 659 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:30,000 I have never seen anything quite like this, so... 660 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,080 I have never seen anything quite like this, so... 661 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,920 APPLAUSE 662 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:40,440 Having... Having said that, 663 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:45,160 I-I do need to make you aware that, erm, inevitably, 664 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,000 er, there are legal fees and court costs 665 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,200 and our obligations to our funders that will eat into that total. 666 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:53,560 So... 667 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:58,960 The amount that will be left after that to, erm... 668 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,320 ..divide amongst yourselves as compensation 669 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,840 will be in the region of, erm, £12 million. 670 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,320 MUMBLING 671 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,000 Wait, 12 million between 555? 672 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,320 That... That's, what, 20... 20 grand each? 673 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,120 On average, yes. £20,000? 674 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,160 That... That... 675 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,520 That won't touch the sides of what we've lost. 676 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,520 Listen, I understand, but what you must remember 677 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,760 is that today's settlement opens a lot of doors 678 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:30,000 so that people with convictions can now use these judgments 679 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,680 so that people with convictions can now use these judgments 680 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,400 to help with their appeals going forward forever, so... 681 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,360 MAN: But what about us? ALL TALK OVER EACH OTHER 682 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:44,080 What this also means is that those sub-postmasters 683 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,640 who've been too scared to come forward up to now 684 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,840 will be able to do so without fear. 685 00:35:54,600 --> 00:36:00,000 Friends... we did talk this over and over again, 686 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:00,800 Friends... we did talk this over and over again, 687 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,520 and we knew we might not see a penny, but... 688 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,480 ..we decided, we voted to go ahead. 689 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,440 They got paid, right? MUMBLING 690 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,280 ALL TALK OVER EACH OTHER 691 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,320 Excuse me? Excuse me? TALKING CONTINUES 692 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,440 Excuse me! TALKING STOPS 693 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:30,000 I've been in court every single day, 694 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,000 I've been in court every single day, 695 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:37,080 and I saw us with my own eyes winning the most massive victory. 696 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:42,560 And that's all down to Alan and James and Patrick 697 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:44,240 and their hard work. 698 00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:48,520 So could you just all... stop it? 699 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,760 GROUP MURMURS 700 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:02,320 It's never gonna end, is it? 701 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,320 I wouldn't mind, but our legal team worked for free a lot of the time, 702 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,760 and none of them, not even the funders, 703 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,840 took anything like the fees they were due. 704 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:24,640 Well, anyway, it's not about money, is it? 705 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,400 Well, it is, partly. 706 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:28,760 HE CHUCKLES But mostly... 707 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:30,000 You know what I mean. 708 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:30,880 You know what I mean. 709 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,720 You won, Alan. 710 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,960 You set out to prove Horizon is faulty, and you did it. 711 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:39,120 You won. 712 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,640 But everyone is still skint. 713 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:43,680 Alan... 714 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,880 Lee, I want to... We're not attacking you, Alan. 715 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,720 Everyone can see you did your best. Thank you. 716 00:37:58,000 --> 00:37:59,600 I mean that. 717 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,400 Don't listen to the angry people. They're upset. Tired. 718 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,400 I know. It's all right. 719 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,960 Just remember, we'd be nowhere without you, Mr Bates. 720 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,240 HE CHUCKLES You're a... a legend. 721 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:28,920 Huh... 722 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:30,000 There from the beginning... and you never wavered. 723 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,720 There from the beginning... and you never wavered. 724 00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:37,600 Never. Not for all those long years. 725 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,840 Just been a tower of strength and new ideas. 726 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,040 Ooh, am I embarrassing you? SHE CHUCKLES 727 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,560 Listen, Jo... 728 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,760 All this evidence the litigation has dug up, 729 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,880 all the secrets coming out of the woodwork... 730 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,000 well, we got to the truth. 731 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:00,760 well, we got to the truth. 732 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:05,760 It belongs to us now. Use it. Prove your innocence. 733 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,240 Go to the Court of Appeal and show the world 734 00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:12,000 what a miscarriage of justice really looks like. 735 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:15,560 All right, Alan. 736 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,680 But... what are you gonna do? 737 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,000 Oh, er... There's a pint of beer in Wales with my name on it. 738 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:31,760 Oh, er... There's a pint of beer in Wales with my name on it. 739 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:33,240 HE CHUCKLES 740 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:41,480 HE SIGHS 741 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,320 I think people are bitter. 742 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:51,360 They're angry. And I get it, I do. 743 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,800 I'm bitter. I'm angry. 744 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,440 And I care about the money, of course I do. 745 00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,920 I care about the home we should have had, 746 00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:00,000 the life we could have had, and... 747 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,720 the life we could have had, and... 748 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,040 But I care about justice, too. 749 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,120 And you, I care about you, 750 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,400 so don't you dare go blaming yourself. 751 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,000 I don't. HE CHUCKLES 752 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:16,280 You have absolutely nothing to blame yourself for. 753 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,720 And that's why I don't blame myself. 754 00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:20,800 Come on, let's get home. 755 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:28,680 I suppose I've... I've never seen the point of getting angry, Suzanne. 756 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:30,000 I-I treat it like a job, you know? 757 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:31,160 I-I treat it like a job, you know? 758 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,880 Something I lift off the shelf and then put back after. 759 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,280 Funnily enough, I don't really remember that part, 760 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,320 the "putting it back on the shelf" part. 761 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,200 More the "seven days a week, 365 days a year" part. 762 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:44,360 HE LAUGHS 763 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,640 And also, Alan, jobs are things that people are paid to do. 764 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,160 Yeah, something went a bit wrong there. 765 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:53,640 HE CHUCKLES 766 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:57,760 Not actually giving up at all, are you? 767 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:00,000 Well... 768 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:00,520 Well... 769 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,680 ..there's the small matter of every one of the 555 770 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:07,320 getting their money back. 771 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,960 And then there's the small matter of the right people 772 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,600 holding up their hands to take the blame. 773 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:14,760 For the Vennells? 774 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,240 The British government. 775 00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:23,080 Why? Well, because the government is the one and only owner 776 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,080 of the good ship Post Office, 777 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,360 which doesn't have a penny in its coffers 778 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,000 owing to the fact it's spent it all fighting us. 779 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,640 All of which means that in the end, 780 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,680 Her Majesty's Government is going to have to hold up its hands, 781 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,480 accept responsibility for this fiasco 782 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,640 and pay us the compensation we deserve. 783 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,760 When people say "the government", they really mean "the taxpayer", 784 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:45,880 but nobody would begrudge you. 785 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,640 We established the truth in a court of law, James, 786 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,800 and now I'm focusing on the 555 787 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,360 who need their lives putting back together. 788 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,640 You don't give up, do you, you awkward sod? 789 00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:58,000 Well... ALAN CHUCKLES 790 00:41:58,000 --> 00:41:59,360 Someone's got to be. 791 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,800 Alan, cast your mind back, if you will, 792 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,440 to the summer of 2013. 793 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,920 Er, Bob was doing his review. 794 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,120 And you were fighting me every inch of the way. 795 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:12,600 I was right, though. 796 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,960 And at the same time, the Post Office, 797 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,160 in secret and at the highest level, 798 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,920 were commissioning independent legal advice. 799 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:26,040 This lawyer's report establishes beyond doubt 800 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:30,000 that the Post Office lied to and were in contempt of Parliament. 801 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:30,960 that the Post Office lied to and were in contempt of Parliament. 802 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:32,440 You were right. 803 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,160 It also proves that all the time 804 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,200 we were wading through treacle trying to investigate, 805 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,040 senior Post Office executives were shredding documents 806 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,560 and failing to disclose that they knew 807 00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:44,120 there were unsafe convictions. 808 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,120 Did... Did Paula know? 809 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,840 It's not possible to say with any certainty. 810 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,960 PAULA: 'I want to say that I'm deeply sorry 811 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,240 'for those sub-postmasters who have suffered. 812 00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,000 'I have read many of their stories, and they are harrowing. 813 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:01,600 'I have read many of their stories, and they are harrowing. 814 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:04,480 'They are with me every day. 815 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:11,400 'I was and remain deeply disturbed by what has come to light. 816 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,040 'It is contrary to what I believe through my time 817 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:19,880 'as CEO of Post Office between 2012 and 2019. 818 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,360 'I wish to state for the record that I do not accept 819 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:30,000 'any personal criminal misconduct.' 820 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:30,400 'any personal criminal misconduct.' 821 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,920 WOMAN: Morning, Jo. Good luck. Oh, thank you. 822 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:55,360 This judgment concerns 42 men and women... 823 00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:58,800 ..who were all prosecuted by their employer 824 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:00,000 and convicted of crimes of dishonesty. 825 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:01,720 and convicted of crimes of dishonesty. 826 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:08,800 Josephine Hamilton pleaded guilty to 14 counts of false accounting. 827 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:15,400 There was no examination of the data for bugs, errors or defects. 828 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,320 There was no proof of an actual loss 829 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,640 as opposed to an Horizon-generated shortage. 830 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:26,960 Even more alarming, 831 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,000 Post Office Limited's own investigator had reported 832 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:30,400 Post Office Limited's own investigator had reported 833 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,680 there was no evidence of theft. 834 00:44:34,720 --> 00:44:38,720 We conclude Mrs Hamilton's prosecution was unfair 835 00:44:38,720 --> 00:44:40,480 and an affront to justice. 836 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:43,560 We allow her appeal. 837 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:46,720 We quash her convictions. 838 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:53,400 Notwithstanding his guilty plea, Noel Thomas's conviction is unsafe. 839 00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:56,560 We allow his appeal. 840 00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:00,000 His prosecution was unfair and an affront to justice. 841 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:00,440 His prosecution was unfair and an affront to justice. 842 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,000 In the case of Susan Rudkin, we allow her appeal. 843 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,880 Her conviction is unsafe. 844 00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:09,800 Very sadly, three of the applicants - 845 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,880 Julian Wilson, Peter Holmes and Dawn O'Connell - 846 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,680 have not lived to see the outcome of their appeals. 847 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,720 CHEERING AND APPLAUSE 848 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,400 REPORTER: 'Did the Post Office bosses go to prison too?' 849 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:25,640 'No. No, no. 850 00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,640 'I've been to jail. I know what it's like. 851 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:30,000 'It doesn't do any good. 852 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:30,280 'It doesn't do any good. 853 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,560 'Hit them in their pockets. Take their money off them. 854 00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:36,840 'It's the only language they'll understand!' 855 00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:40,520 APPLAUSE Good lad. On you go. 856 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,280 You should have gone down for these appeals. 857 00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:44,760 It's not about me. 858 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:49,640 Where's Jo? 859 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:51,200 There she is. 860 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,680 REPORTER: 'Jo? What do you think The Post Office should say?' 861 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:55,280 'Oh, I dunno. Erm... 862 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:59,600 'We've waited so long for this day, and some of us didn't make it. 863 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:00,000 'People have died, you know, 864 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:01,200 'People have died, you know, 865 00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,720 'and all we ever wanted was for the truth to come out 866 00:46:03,720 --> 00:46:05,760 'and for someone to listen.' 867 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:07,640 It didn't have to be like this. 868 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,080 All these good people, their lives in ruins. 869 00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:12,680 I mean, look at us. Do we look like criminals? 870 00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,320 CHEERING AND APPLAUSE 871 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:16,400 Bob! 872 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,560 BOB LAUGHS Bob! 873 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:20,840 Congratulations, Jo. 874 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,280 Not just unfair, but look at this! 875 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,480 "An affront to justice." That's, like, twice as bad. 876 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,600 No, that's 100 times as bad. 877 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,000 Oh, you were like lambs to the slaughter, 878 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:30,520 Oh, you were like lambs to the slaughter, 879 00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:32,320 and they were villains and idiots. 880 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:38,720 Hey, you. 881 00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:44,960 You make me cry, you're a bad man. 882 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,680 'Josephine Hamilton and others versus the Post Office! 883 00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,200 'Look, Alan!' CHEERING AND APPLAUSE 884 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,720 'Look what we did! Look what you did!' 885 00:46:55,720 --> 00:46:58,480 CHEERING AND APPLAUSE 886 00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:05,400 Come on! Yes! Yes! 887 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,880 It's jaw-droppingly significant. 888 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,080 The judges have not only ruled that Jo and the others 889 00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:25,200 were wrongfully convicted, but even worse - 890 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,240 that the Post Office decision to prosecute them was so wrong 891 00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:30,000 that it amounts to an affront to the conscience of the court. 892 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:31,520 that it amounts to an affront to the conscience of the court. 893 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,320 This has to be the widest miscarriage of justice 894 00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:37,520 in British legal history. 895 00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:40,120 CHEERING AND APPLAUSE 896 00:48:13,720 --> 00:48:15,160 I know what you're thinking. 897 00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,680 Well, it's not over, is it? 898 00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:24,080 Well, how about we... just allow ourselves to enjoy it? 899 00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:28,760 OK. HE CHUCKLES 900 00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,000 TYPING IN OTHER ROOM 901 00:48:46,720 --> 00:48:49,960 Alan? Er, just one email. 902 00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,040 Minister of postal affairs. 903 00:48:53,520 --> 00:49:00,000 Re legal costs for our 555 claimants. 904 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:00,240 Re legal costs for our 555 claimants. 905 00:49:00,240 --> 00:49:07,280 Total now due: £46,843,853. 906 00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:13,200 Plus another month's interest at 8%. 907 00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:14,840 Mounts up. 908 00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:19,000 On what planet is the government going to pay our legal costs? 909 00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:23,840 They'll have to. They own the Post Office. 910 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:25,360 Sole shareholder. 911 00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:28,600 The only one. 912 00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:30,000 The only one awkward enough to sit at his computer, 913 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:31,920 The only one awkward enough to sit at his computer, 914 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,120 making trouble for 20 years. 915 00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,200 20 years so far. 916 00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:46,000 Just think of it as a hobby that got out of hand. 917 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,320 THEY LAUGH 918 00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,040 Subtitles by accessibility@itv.com