1 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:27,720 Étienne, the tram is coming. 2 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:28,160 Get up. 3 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:32,040 Étienne. 4 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:39,160 Come on, come on. 5 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:42,160 Étienne. 6 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:53,200 Étienne, if we ever miss this. 7 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,240 Give me peace! Étienne, you come with me. 8 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,520 Swear that if we fail, this movie. 9 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:07,930 Étienne, you get up! Throw me! Lila, get in! Mom ! 10 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:11,720 Now you listen to me. 11 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:13,560 I climb into this frame. 12 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:17,160 Shit. 13 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:27,760 Ouch! You come with me, you're unbearable. 14 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:29,200 Hurry up. 15 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:16,730 Do you have anything in your pockets, Étienne? 16 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:17,930 No belt? 17 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:19,760 No. 18 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:21,720 A moment. 19 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:24,960 Go for it. 20 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:30,000 Okay. 21 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:31,490 Can you check, ma'am? 22 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:32,040 Yes, drop it off. 23 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:33,770 Don't you have anything in your pockets? 24 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:35,330 Can you come forward? 25 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:36,880 Wait a bit. 26 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,120 Key, phone, whatever is there. 27 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:44,080 No, no, it's all there. 28 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:45,080 Yeah, it's okay, you can move forward. 29 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:51,280 Oh yeah, I'm just going to check that I have my ID. 30 00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:52,600 You can also put on your jacket. 31 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:55,960 Yes, he's your brother. 32 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,640 Yeah, you can stay retired please. 33 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:02,850 Do you want, can you come here now? 34 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:04,560 Yes, you stop touching me. 35 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,560 Stop touching me, I told you, mom, stop, stop, stop. 36 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,000 No ! Don't touch my son! We don't touch him. 37 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:13,680 We don't touch him. 38 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,120 It rang, we're just going to check on Madam. 39 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:16,760 Calm down. 40 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:18,410 Can you take out what you have in your pocket please? 41 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:22,040 Your son has a knife in his pocket ma'am. 42 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,690 By the way, where did you get that from Etienne? 43 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:27,610 Etienne? 44 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,290 Look at me, you want us to be locked up, right? 45 00:05:30,280 --> 00:05:33,560 No, we're not going to lock anyone up, no one is going to lock us up, it's okay, we're just afraid. 46 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:34,560 It's okay ma'am, I'll put it aside. 47 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:35,520 That’s it, asshole. 48 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:37,840 You have to tell your daughter to speak properly. 49 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:55,960 Well, court filing here. 50 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,200 It is the judge who can take measures concerning the children. 51 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:01,890 Can she take them off me? 52 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:02,960 She won't do that. 53 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,240 But now she can decide. 54 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,360 Depending on the interests of the children, its goal is to protect them. 55 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:13,450 Does she know about the criminal proceedings or not? 56 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,640 She knows about the complaint, because it's in the SHI report. 57 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:19,120 She does not have the documents in the file. 58 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:21,920 And you know, different authorities don't talk to each other. 59 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:23,160 Yes, we understood that. 60 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,480 Above all, what is important, madam, is really, try not to show that you are hesitating. 61 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:30,800 Be very convinced, convincing of everything you say. 62 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,880 Then if you ever know where you are anymore, I will take over, I will complete it. 63 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:40,480 It's going to be okay, it's going to be okay. 64 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,760 You stay calm, think about what you are going to say. 65 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,570 Do you think dad is going to sit here? 66 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:47,800 No, sweetheart, he's not going to sit here. 67 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:52,000 We asked for him to be seated elsewhere. 68 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:52,610 Okay? 69 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:54,280 That's what I asked, anyway. 70 00:06:54,280 --> 00:06:59,920 I don't understand why we impose all this on them. 71 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:02,080 For that, I wonder what he does, the children's lawyer. 72 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,400 Who cares, anyway, he's not the one who's going to save us. 73 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:10,970 Mom ! Are you staying with her? 74 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:11,970 Etienne? 75 00:07:52,020 --> 00:07:54,020 Etienne, we have to go. 76 00:07:54,020 --> 00:07:57,940 You told me we wouldn't see it but we saw it anyway. 77 00:07:57,940 --> 00:07:58,420 I know. 78 00:08:00,500 --> 00:08:01,380 You're a liar. 79 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:06,680 I'm not responsible for that. 80 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,800 Come on, sweetheart, we're going to miss it. 81 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:17,220 Etienne, we're going to miss our turn. 82 00:08:17,220 --> 00:08:17,500 You don't care. 83 00:08:17,500 --> 00:08:21,420 We're going to miss our turn. 84 00:08:21,420 --> 00:08:23,740 You made me write a letter, it was no use. 85 00:08:24,620 --> 00:08:26,820 I didn't force you to write the letter, Etienne. 86 00:08:26,820 --> 00:08:30,060 The judge said you could write a letter if you didn't want to see him. 87 00:08:30,220 --> 00:08:31,340 That's what you did. 88 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:43,840 I wanted to see Étienne, please. 89 00:08:45,680 --> 00:08:55,710 Take your things, let's go. 90 00:08:56,830 --> 00:09:02,680 What do you mean, are we leaving? 91 00:09:04,350 --> 00:09:05,070 Madame Piron. 92 00:09:07,070 --> 00:09:07,710 Alice. 93 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:09,450 What are you doing there? 94 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:10,720 This has been going on for three years. 95 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:11,480 Ten times they got along. 96 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:13,520 We tell them they won't come across him, he's there. 97 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:15,840 But that's no reason to leave. 98 00:09:16,560 --> 00:09:17,160 You don't go there. 99 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,600 If you leave now, it will backfire on you. 100 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:20,640 Then he is there. 101 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:21,680 He will have won everything. 102 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:24,200 But they don't want to talk anyway. 103 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:24,640 Yes, it's me. 104 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:28,930 Do you agree to talk? 105 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:49,690 Did he talk to you? 106 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:51,880 No, I ignored it. 107 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:56,200 And the other one there with his crying face, they're just hot. 108 00:09:56,560 --> 00:09:57,200 You're scared. 109 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,770 Did you sleep well? 110 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:37,920 Well no. 111 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,320 Don't worry, it'll be fine. 112 00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:42,360 I'm used to it. 113 00:10:57,750 --> 00:10:58,480 The Gossens children? 114 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:06,090 Are you ready? 115 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:11,610 Here we go ? 116 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:28,320 If you allow me a minute, I'm going to speak with Maître Roland. 117 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:29,090 Master Roland? 118 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:30,970 You told me you wanted to add a document to the file? 119 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,160 Yeah, it's the absence report, Étienne. 120 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:34,400 My client sent it to me yesterday. 121 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:35,930 OK, can I see? 122 00:11:41,100 --> 00:11:44,620 OK, well everything is already justified, so the judge will appreciate it. 123 00:11:52,180 --> 00:12:00,500 It's nothing, it's just a little absence report. 124 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:29,010 Where are they? 125 00:13:34,630 --> 00:13:37,590 We installed them in another room. 126 00:13:37,790 --> 00:13:38,870 Don't worry, it's the procedure. 127 00:13:38,870 --> 00:13:39,880 What do you mean the procedure is? 128 00:13:39,870 --> 00:13:41,150 We didn't say anything. 129 00:13:41,230 --> 00:13:42,310 It was the judge who decided. 130 00:13:42,310 --> 00:13:42,920 But where are they? 131 00:13:42,910 --> 00:13:44,070 They are in another room. 132 00:13:45,710 --> 00:13:46,350 Madame Piron. 133 00:13:48,110 --> 00:13:50,600 Excuse me, where are my children? 134 00:13:52,350 --> 00:13:54,320 Can I have your name? 135 00:13:54,310 --> 00:13:56,750 Yes, it’s Alice Piron, it’s Étienne. 136 00:13:58,240 --> 00:13:58,840 And Lila too. 137 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:01,320 I'm sorry, but the session has already passed. 138 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:06,480 Lila! Stephen! I want to see my children. 139 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:08,680 I want to see my children. 140 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:10,880 I want to see my children. 141 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:19,250 Lila! Stephen! But what is going on here? 142 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:20,730 Madam, are you in a court? 143 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,520 Yes, Madam, no one can tell me where my children are. 144 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,280 Your children are seated a little further away in another waiting room. 145 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,040 It was I who asked for them to be installed there. 146 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:29,690 All right ? 147 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:32,880 Let's be calm. 148 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:34,640 Please. 149 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:34,760 Okay. 150 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:36,480 Come. 151 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,560 Nothing happened. 152 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,360 We're going to panic like that. 153 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:55,320 Sit down. 154 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:10,560 I'll start with a brief summary of what the children said. 155 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:23,760 Then, I will listen to the request of Mr. Roland's lawyer, then the arguments of Madam's lawyer, Mr. Alaoui, before the floor is given to Mr. Comuzzo. 156 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:25,920 Who represent the interests of children. 157 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:34,160 Ms Perron, Mr Rossens, I would ask you not to intervene before you are given the floor in a second part of the interview. 158 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:38,080 Okay, you will have time to express yourself however you want at that time. 159 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:45,600 Maître Roland, could you explain to me why this file reached the youth court? 160 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:45,610 ? 161 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,640 I see there was already more than 4 years ago. 162 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:54,400 A decision in the family court regarding accommodation arrangements. 163 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:59,440 And I see that the gentleman has since filed a complaint with the police for non-compliance with these accommodation rights. 164 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:00,960 Can you explain to me? 165 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:00,970 ? 166 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,480 In my opinion, the SAJ report is incomprehensible. 167 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:06,080 Thank you, Madam Judge. 168 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:12,640 That's it, so to explain to you the reason for our presence here, it is that we believe that children are in danger. 169 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:19,800 Monsieur noticed that the children are not doing well, that they are isolated, that they have been going to school more recently. 170 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:20,890 So what? 171 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:31,080 you will forgive my familiarity, but Madame Biron has decided to add another layer by making very serious accusations against Mr. Kossens. 172 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:36,560 So obviously, he formally contests them, but that is not the subject of what we are discussing before you today. 173 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:37,920 But what is the result? 174 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:37,930 ? 175 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:44,840 In fact, and you know better than me, the criminal procedure completely blocks all the possibilities that exist before the family courts. 176 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,720 And so ultimately, the only possibility left, as I said, is to come before you. 177 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:56,240 To actually ask for Mr. Goossens to be reinstated in his rights and to be able to reestablish this relationship with the children. 178 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:09,440 I would also like to draw your attention to the fact that I think we all noticed that Madame Piron could be subject to excesses just now in your waiting room. 179 00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:17,520 And I have to tell you that I was really, really shocked by the fact that the children can't even say hello to their father. 180 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:27,000 We have reached a point of no return which you absolutely must put an end to because there the link is prevented and it is no longer possible for Mr Goossens. 181 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,720 So that’s why we’re calling on you, Madam Judge. 182 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,520 OK, Maître Rolland, thank you for these details. 183 00:17:41,590 --> 00:17:51,350 Well, so I listened to the children, Lila and Étienne, and they expressed to me very clearly their desire to no longer see their father. 184 00:17:52,560 --> 00:18:02,640 I also received their letter and Lila confirms that she has not seen her father since January 2022 and has no desire or need to reconnect with him. 185 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:13,560 She places the break in the bond with her father around the age of 13 and she says that she always had the impression of serving, of asserting herself towards her new partner. 186 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,240 She even told me that for her, today, it's as if he was dead. 187 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,600 Étienne also clearly expresses his wish to no longer see his father. 188 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:27,320 He says he doesn't miss him and wants to forget certain images he says he has in his head. 189 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:35,440 So, I'll tell you straight away, the problem I encounter is that when I ask Étienne if he can describe these images, he remains very evasive. 190 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:41,240 In any case, regarding your son's previous statements, I will not be able to rule. 191 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,240 This is already the subject of criminal proceedings. 192 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:54,560 My role today as a youth judge is to define whether social, educational or psychological support for children is necessary or not. 193 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,480 With this in mind, Maître Rolland, I will give you the floor. 194 00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:00,640 What would your recommendations be? 195 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:00,650 ? 196 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:09,920 So, you have it, you mentioned it, Madam Judge, it has been 2 years, more than 2 years since the children no longer saw their father. 197 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:14,880 We are in a situation which is fueled by Madame Piron herself. 198 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:23,760 Which, in fact, fuels this desire in children to completely break off the relationship and no longer have the slightest contact with their dad. 199 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:30,080 Did you see how my client blamed what you mentioned in relation to the interview with the children? 200 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:30,090 ? 201 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:41,960 But for a father to hear that his daughter considers him dead, I think it is extremely shocking, extremely violent, and it demonstrates the seriousness of the situation in which we find ourselves today. 202 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:51,280 Mr. Cossens really experiences this as something very violent, to no longer have the slightest right, to be completely deprived of the slightest right in the lives of his children. 203 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:54,680 And beyond that, he is even very worried. 204 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:59,040 This is also why we are here in front of you, is that he is trying to communicate with his daughter. 205 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:03,600 Nothing happens, that is to say there is no response, there is a complete cutoff. 206 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,960 Communication was broken overnight without anyone knowing why. 207 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:17,360 Mr. Goscens, until then, had had completely good relations with his children, with Étienne, even since the decision of the family court. 208 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,040 And then overnight, nothing. 209 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:25,920 He knows that Étienne goes to psychologists and doctors, but how does he know? 210 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:25,930 ? 211 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:31,680 Because in fact, he receives letters from the mutual at home, which means he is never informed of anything, he is never consulted. 212 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:36,920 It was through school that he learned that there was a whole series of unjustified absences from Étienne. 213 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:38,480 And besides, on this subject, Madam Judge. 214 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:44,320 I wanted to give you a document which is in fact the report card for Étienne's unjustified absences from school. 215 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,680 I brought it to my colleague's attention before the hearing, before your interview. 216 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:49,840 Thank you, continue. 217 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:56,000 Well, that's it, but it still seems important to me that you can take this element into account. 218 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,440 So there, it is only through the school that he is informed of this. 219 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:00,480 it's not at all by the mayor. 220 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:08,920 He is also very worried about Lila because Lila has always had excellent results and now he doesn't understand why these results suddenly drop. 221 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:28,160 So the question we ask ourselves, and which it seems to me should also concern you in the context of your reflection, is that there is clearly a desire on the part of Madame to in fact keep the children in isolation, that is to say, to cut them off from everything else, to cut them off from the world around them. 222 00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:33,800 You have another element which really raises questions, and that is Étienne's incontinence. 223 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:40,560 That is to say that until now, Étienne had never complained of the slightest physical pain or the slightest problem of this order. 224 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:46,440 And then, again, almost overnight, he was treated for an incontinence problem. 225 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:53,280 We almost come to wonder if in fact Madame does not take a liking to changing the diapers of her 10-year-old son. 226 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,960 Anyway, this is a question that I apologize for, but I can like. 227 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,880 Still asking for a little more respect, there is one. 228 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:03,640 I will continue, thank you. 229 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:08,640 So in any case, what we see is that there is this maintenance in isolation. 230 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:17,800 There is also this keeping away from the in-laws, that is to say that Mr. Goossens' family has no place in the children's lives, unlike Madame's family which is completely omnipresent. 231 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,320 So we are in a very significant imbalance. 232 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:29,520 While Mr. Goossens has always been a good father, he has good practices, he is committed to giving a good education to his children. 233 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:38,320 You are aware that he is responsible for an ADEPS center, so you have someone who is more than competent in the field of education and who knows very well what is good for his children. 234 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:54,800 If I continue on the question of each person's professions, I would like you to also think a little about the professional environment in which Madame Piron operates because she is a woman who works in a family planning center. 235 00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:59,040 He is someone who is quite accustomed to situations of sexual abuse. 236 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:10,320 She always discussed these subjects on the telephone, in private meetings, probably in the presence of the children, and therefore legitimately. 237 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:19,120 He also wonders whether Madame would not come to develop a form of fascination, even obsession, for this type of situation which would nourish. 238 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,120 Maître Roland, I must say that this concerns me somewhat. 239 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:29,680 That a woman invested in her work regarding sexual violence can be fascinated by it. 240 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:36,090 Do you think that I myself am fascinated by the acts of violence that I hear here all day long? 241 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:37,520 No, Madam Judge, that's not what I mean. 242 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:44,240 Simply, I think that there is this context which perhaps fuels the accusations that even Piron makes against Monsieur. 243 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:49,360 Or it’s also someone who sees a psychiatrist. 244 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:57,040 She also suffers from a kidney pathology which means that she has very regular stays in hospital. 245 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:02,160 And so, inevitably, she is not there to take care of her children when she has to go to the hospital. 246 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:08,800 She is having a difficult time from a health point of view and we completely respect that. 247 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,800 But at precisely these times, children must not be left to their own devices. 248 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,000 And the children should be able to be taken care of. 249 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:26,800 And precisely, this is where Mr Goosens could have a more important place, simply to open up, to offer children security, support. 250 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:32,160 When Madame goes through periods of unavailability, the children could be completely safe at their dad's house. 251 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,920 In this house, for sure, they will be safe with a rapist father, that's for sure. 252 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,560 Madame Piron, you are in a court. 253 00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:49,040 Go on, yeah, I would like to say a few more words, Madam Judge, about this famous criminal procedure which everyone makes a big deal of. 254 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:57,480 It seems very important to me to emphasize the fact that until now, Madame Piron is the only one to have mentioned these facts of incest. 255 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:07,560 It seems fundamental to me to return to one of the cardinal principles of criminal procedure, Mr Goossens is presumed innocent, agreed, and for the moment, there is no fact which has been established against him. 256 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,200 And so I will ask you, Madam Judge. 257 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,280 Not to let your mind be polluted by this procedure. 258 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,560 You are not a criminal judge, you are a youth judge. 259 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,880 Yeah, okay, but I know my role well, master, thank you. 260 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,760 I would still like to insist on this because it seems very important to me. 261 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:24,480 Alright. 262 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,320 Can you now make your request, please? 263 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:27,330 ? 264 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:34,520 Yeah, so I come to what we are asking today on behalf of Mr. Goossens, then regarding Étienne. 265 00:25:36,240 --> 00:26:04,480 Given the point of no return at which we have reached and given the seriousness of the situation as it is today, it would seem appropriate to us in fact that you order his placement in a neutral environment within an institution where he could be taken care of by psychosocial staff who will in fact be able to follow him and who will be able to follow his evolution and formulate proposals to little by little, gradually, re-establish the link with his dad. 266 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,240 This is what we recommend regarding Étienne. 267 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:14,320 As for Leila, given her age, it seems a little complicated to impose anything on her. 268 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:21,760 Mr. Gossens really hopes that Leila will distance herself a little from what her mother tells her. 269 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:29,840 And perhaps the decision, I hope, that you will make today will allow this young girl to realize that her father is a partner and not an adversary. 270 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:53,040 As far as Madame Piron is concerned, there you have it, I have expressed to you my concerns regarding her state of health, whether it be her physical or psychological state of health, so that you can make a completely clear decision and having knowledge of all the elements, you should order a psychiatric assessment of Madame, because without that, I don't really see how we could move forward and on what legal basis do you want me to request that? 271 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:53,050 ? 272 00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:54,880 I will leave that to your discretion. 273 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:56,160 Thank you, master. 274 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,480 Okay, so I now give the floor to Maître Allaoui, the lady's lawyer. 275 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:03,440 Thank you, Madam Judge. 276 00:27:09,030 --> 00:27:19,510 A small preliminary remark is that I have a misunderstanding and so does my client regarding this new procedure, even though we already had a procedure in the family court a few years ago. 277 00:27:19,510 --> 00:27:26,470 It's true, there was a judgment which recorded an agreement which is not respected in practice and for a long time, there have been good reasons for this. 278 00:27:27,590 --> 00:27:30,630 Second thing is that we are also in the middle of criminal proceedings. 279 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:38,720 As you know, sexual abuse committed by Mr. Goossens against his son Étienne was reported a little over 2 years ago. 280 00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:45,920 This is what obviously caused the breakdown of contacts and the investigation is still in progress. 281 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:53,800 So Monsieur was heard about this, so he obviously knows that there is an investigation underway and we act as if all this did not exist. 282 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:59,440 Suddenly, after 2 years, when he had absolutely no concern for the well-being of his children, their situation. 283 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:07,720 Well, he woke up straight away and he took steps with the SHI. 284 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,800 Sir, I can tell you that there is indeed an investigation. 285 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:13,800 So. 286 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:18,320 So as I said, there is an investigation underway and we will soon be awaiting a correctional referral. 287 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:24,520 And besides, Ben, Étienne's versions in his filmed video hearing, the minutes are in your file. 288 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:25,120 So I think that. 289 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:33,040 It is a bit enormous now to pretend to ignore it since Monsieur was also interviewed as part of this investigation, it seems to me. 290 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:41,760 So, I would like us to also realize how violent this procedure is for my client and for the children. 291 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:43,480 Yeah, master, these are the procedures. 292 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,480 I know this is the procedure and I know of course. 293 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:47,680 That's justice, master. 294 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,400 Yes, I know, the case was taken to court. 295 00:28:51,360 --> 00:29:07,040 However, we must understand what violence this entails for children and secondary victimization, from the moment when they are once again asked to come, to be physically confronted, even from afar, with their father and to have to once again explain the facts and their trauma. 296 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,600 It is extremely difficult for them and for my client. 297 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,880 So I reassure everyone, she is not seriously ill. 298 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:19,760 It's true that from time to time, she has to take care of herself and she has a little medical problem that I won't dwell on. 299 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,360 I'm sorry, there is still medical confidentiality and I don't have to bring you reports. 300 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:24,490 Do we agree? 301 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:33,520 And so no, the children are not left to their own devices, obviously, and fortunately, they also have relationships with members of my client's family and in particular her parents. 302 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,160 Thanks to that, well they can also flourish. 303 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,840 I will return briefly to the genesis of this affair, to the family history. 304 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,080 My client had a really checkered love affair with Mr. Goossens. 305 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,280 When she became pregnant, the gentleman seemed delighted to soon become a father. 306 00:29:54,000 --> 00:30:02,080 But in reality, my client went through her pregnancy alone, going from appointment to appointment, on public transportation, without ever having any support. 307 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,760 When the children were born, it was the same thing. 308 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,400 She was the one who always had to take over when the father resigned. 309 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:18,120 There was a breakdown of the parties and then the procedure in the family court and secondary accommodation was put in place. 310 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,760 So that the children can spend a weekend with their father from time to time. 311 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,640 Initially, everything seemed fine. 312 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,200 Very quickly, however, the situation deteriorated. 313 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:35,800 However, my client was trying to calm the situation and allow the children to go to their father. 314 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:42,800 She even insisted that he go to their father, of course, until the revelation of the acts committed against Étienne. 315 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,200 There, it was no longer possible, as you can imagine. 316 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:56,800 I would like to emphasize the fact that we ask children to express themselves, but we, as adults, when they do, it is really important that we listen to them and respect them. 317 00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:58,800 And that's what my client did. 318 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:11,600 And so, she quickly realized that the nightmare revealed by her son Étienne was in fact reality and that it corresponded to all the signs that she was aware of at that time. 319 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,040 That is to say that Étienne was being followed at that time by a psychologist. 320 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:20,640 The psychologist also said that she had suspected this abuse for several sessions. 321 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,080 And then also came encopresis encopresis. 322 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:31,360 It is therefore an intestinal problem which is revealed by an involuntary emission of stools. 323 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:42,080 I think you give a good idea of ​​what it can represent for a little boy like Étienne, first of all in relation to the image he may have of himself. 324 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:52,000 In relation to his social relations and in relation to the difficulties that this obviously creates on a daily basis, I hear that Mr Goossens, clearly, is still in denial of what happened. 325 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:53,760 This is his strictest right, obviously. 326 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,640 But I would still like it to be clarified that no, my client is not the one who denounced the facts. 327 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,280 It was Étienne, it was the children who complained. 328 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,040 And Étienne has not varied in his declarations for more than 2 years. 329 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,880 He explains that he sees himself as above. 330 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:16,240 Separated from his body and he sees himself crushed by his father's body. 331 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,760 A phenomenon of decorporation which is quite characteristic of trauma situations. 332 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:35,400 So, I am not asking you to judge criminally, we are in complete agreement, but I am asking you to take into account all the elements of this case because the well-being of the children and their safety obviously depends on it and we cannot afford to take the slightest risk. 333 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:41,320 I heard so far everything was going well, until now there was no incontinence from Étienne. 334 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:48,280 But until now, Mr Gaussens, it stopped 2 years ago, I remind you, there has been a total break in contact for more than 2 years. 335 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,560 He knows nothing about the situation of his children currently. 336 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:59,920 So he comes with a whole series of assertions, hypotheses that are completely self-centered and off the mark, inventing that it would be my client who would induce this. 337 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,320 Reaction in children. 338 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,200 But it's amazing to hear that. 339 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:11,520 Can anyone in their right mind really believe that we are faking, that we are simulating incontinence? 340 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:11,530 ? 341 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:14,760 I think we need to come back to earth. 342 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:20,040 I come to my request. 343 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:28,320 There is only one measure which seems useful to me for children, which seems to me to ensure their safety, even if only psychologically. 344 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,240 I told you, there is a state of rupture of the bond with the father. 345 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:42,560 They do not want to see Mr. Goossens and I think that recognizing this state of affairs and ordering today a ban on contact with Mr. Goossens would be the only thing that would appease them. 346 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:43,680 That's what I'm asking you today. 347 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:45,640 I said, thank you. 348 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:46,400 Thank you, Master. 349 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:53,210 Well, Master Comuso, what do you think? 350 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,080 Thank you, Madam Judge. 351 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:01,560 Look, we've, we've heard a lot of interesting things from parents' advice. 352 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:08,639 We saw that we are in a situation of emotion, enormously, we were able to see it all this morning. 353 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:15,600 But the good news is that you, like me, are driven by a single interest, that of children. 354 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:23,840 We have no other elements to consider and as such, I met them at length, I discussed at length with both of them. 355 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:30,080 We were able to discuss many topics and they were able to share many of their wishes with me. 356 00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:33,920 And I'm not sure that's exactly what we heard today. 357 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:39,360 Of course, one thing is certain, the children do not want to see their father again for the moment. 358 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:42,239 What happens is you have Lila first. 359 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:47,600 She is a young 17 year old teenager who is a rebellious young teenager in reality. 360 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:53,040 Rebellious against the world, against justice, against politics, against men, it's a bit in the spirit of the times. 361 00:34:53,360 --> 00:35:00,800 She is a teenager who lives in the spirit of the times and who fights her battles, but who has an inner revolt, an inner burning that is undoubtedly very strong. 362 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:09,760 Then next to that, you have Étienne, this young boy who perhaps shows more of a loyalty to his parents. 363 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:10,800 It's a difficulty. 364 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:12,800 Particularly in relation to his father. 365 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:20,720 But where it is important, and I must say this while representing their interests, is that throughout our discussions, I never called the shots. 366 00:35:20,720 --> 00:35:25,520 I never gave any support to let them speak, to see what they had to say to me. 367 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,080 And as such, I have never heard. 368 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:29,400 I don't have an episode. 369 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:36,480 In fact, Madam Judge, I do not have this episode which is recounted and which is the subject of an investigation today, obviously. 370 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:37,680 I don't have one. 371 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,920 Etienne doesn't talk to me about these issues and so it's a bit tricky. 372 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,080 It's a bit tricky to express. 373 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,480 Madam, if you allow me to continue my remarks, you will undoubtedly have the floor later. 374 00:35:48,840 --> 00:36:01,840 Yes, so you have, as I told you, Madam Judge, these 2 children with quite different profiles, but who are linked by a single thing, and it is certain, it is a trauma, the trauma of the separation of the parents. 375 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:09,200 And the problem is that these two young people are not yet fully aware that they need both parents to develop properly. 376 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:15,840 And here, I have to say it, and sometimes in a familiar way, I have the feeling that the parents are screwing everything up these days. 377 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:27,360 This is fundamental, particularly because you have Mr. Father who has been absent, who has never wanted to pay the slightest euro to take care of his children. 378 00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:29,920 This absenteeism is absolutely exceptional. 379 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,320 And Sir, moreover, I will allow myself, if you allow me, to address you. 380 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:44,720 If my daughter and Madam Judge reminded us earlier, were to consider me dead, I would try to work things out, I would try to find solutions. 381 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:47,600 Maybe I'll go pick her up from school. 382 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:56,800 Monsieur reproaches Madame for not introducing the children to him, for not allowing him to see them, but. 383 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,160 Mr AT only tried once to exercise this right? 384 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:00,170 ? 385 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:01,640 I'm not sure. 386 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:08,800 Monsieur was disinterested in his children for a very long period and I wonder about this ultimately late awakening. 387 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,280 Is this awakening perhaps self-serving? 388 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:11,290 ? 389 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:12,320 I don't know. 390 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:21,840 I wonder about the real motivations of the gentleman regarding this desire to now introduce procedures before you in order to reconnect with his children. 391 00:37:22,240 --> 00:37:25,360 I think there is reason to analyze perhaps more deeply. 392 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:27,400 Reasons and reasons for motivation. 393 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:32,240 So I told you earlier, it’s a responsibility of both parents, that’s very clear. 394 00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:36,800 And Madam also in certain difficulties. 395 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:42,010 Madam, I think, wouldn't you do better to let your guard down a little? 396 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,250 Don't you think you're putting a little too much pressure on your children? 397 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:53,160 I watched you earlier in the waiting room and I wondered if your children weren't perhaps a little afraid of you. 398 00:37:55,120 --> 00:38:04,640 I understand all the difficulties you face, but I think you are putting too much pressure and this pressure is reflected on your children. 399 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:23,280 I think that Madam, as I told you, is facing many difficulties, growing pressure, a difficult situation, obviously providing for the needs of 2 children alone in our time. 400 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:25,120 This is not possible, Madam Judge. 401 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:32,560 We need to look at other solutions and I think we need to move towards a meeting space where children could possibly meet. 402 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,560 Don't touch me, don't touch me. 403 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:38,130 What is it? 404 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:38,640 I didn't do anything. 405 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:40,360 He touched my thigh. 406 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:42,520 But no, but I have nothing. 407 00:38:42,720 --> 00:38:46,250 But Master, can you change places with your darling? 408 00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:46,680 I didn't touch anything. 409 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,480 No, but no, it wasn't. 410 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:51,080 Change places, please. 411 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,210 Mr. Comuzzo, can you finish, please? 412 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:05,600 Thank you, Madam Judge. 413 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,400 I was talking to you about these meeting spaces with the father. 414 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:17,600 I think it is fundamental, really, that we do not break contact. 415 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:24,160 It is the resumption of contact which will allow, I think, the children to be able to develop. 416 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:35,920 And so this is the reason why I think we have to go through spaces, but above all because educational help will allow Madame to have confidence again in the fact that she can be a good mother. 417 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:40,640 I said, thank you, Madam Judge. 418 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:42,640 Thank you, master. 419 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:53,120 Mr Hausens, what would you like to say about everything we have just heard? 420 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:53,130 ? 421 00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:01,040 I don't understand and I'm very worried about the children. 422 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:05,640 I don't understand what I'm being accused of actually. 423 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:16,800 I mean, I have always done everything to be a good father and today, I am being accused of acts that I did not commit. 424 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:20,520 I don't feel like people are talking about me. 425 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,200 In fact, I feel like it's someone else. 426 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,280 You know very well that I have always had an excellent relationship with my children. 427 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,560 Mr. Hosons, you are not addressing me, Madam. 428 00:40:36,940 --> 00:40:37,940 Mr Komozzo is right. 429 00:40:41,300 --> 00:40:45,460 I better put things in place to reconnect with my kids no matter what. 430 00:40:45,460 --> 00:40:51,460 The thing is, I don't dare. 431 00:40:52,260 --> 00:40:56,140 With all this, I feel dirty and I feel insulted. 432 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,240 I don't understand why my children are afraid of me. 433 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,600 I've never had any problems with my children. 434 00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:09,240 Never. 435 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:17,290 Okay, sir, but explain to us what happened then all of a sudden? 436 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,210 Why don't they want to see you anymore? 437 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,160 Because that’s exactly what they told me earlier. 438 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:22,410 Please explain it to me, ma'am? 439 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:23,280 Madam Judge. 440 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:25,680 Madam Judge. 441 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:36,960 Ah, sorry, excuse me Madam Judge, sorry, because I said that I ask myself the same question as you, Madam Judge, please explain it to me. 442 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:50,160 We lived very well, without the slightest problem for years, then we separated with Madame, I took it upon myself, I did everything to make the separation go well. 443 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:54,240 I continue to have my children regularly, without any problems. 444 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:55,200 of. 445 00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:02,320 Excuse me for poop, well I'll clarify for my son, well for encopresis, I didn't even know the term. 446 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:12,160 Alice, she works in the medical field, she knows what she is talking about, what she is saying. 447 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:22,480 Anyway, so I see my children, I continue, there is no problem. 448 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:24,240 And then one day, bam. 449 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,240 One day or another, all of a sudden, I no longer have an answer. 450 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,160 I text my daughter, no response. 451 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,440 I go to swimming lessons, my son is older. 452 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:40,320 I learned through the mail that my children are seeing doctors. 453 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:46,800 Yes, because it's still me who pays the mutual insurance, the school, the college contacts me. 454 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:53,520 I notice that my children are going to school more, even more Lila, who is an excellent student and who now finds herself depressed. 455 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:54,800 do you realize? 456 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:54,810 ? 457 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:56,120 In depression. 458 00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:01,600 And here today I learn that a certain investigation is underway. 459 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:03,920 What is this investigation? 460 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:03,930 ? 461 00:43:04,240 --> 00:43:14,040 No one contacted me, I did nothing, no one explained to me what was happening and I haven't seen my children for 2 years now, 2 years. 462 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,400 My son is 10 years old, he is sad, he doesn't go to school. 463 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:24,280 Well, even for Alice, I'm separated, but I still worry about her. 464 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:29,320 I don't understand what she's really accusing me of. 465 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:35,400 I mean, everything has always gone well between us, there has never been any slip-up. 466 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,920 I don't know who put all this in his head. 467 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:53,080 I wonder, well, I think that she simply can't stand the fact that I've rebuilt my life, that I'm succeeding unlike her. 468 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,480 Because I have a new baby and everything is going great. 469 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:11,600 No, I'm worried about his mental health and that of my children. 470 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:18,560 I love my children, I have never done them any harm. 471 00:44:24,830 --> 00:44:31,470 I didn't do anything, I didn't do anything and I don't want to pay for something I didn't do. 472 00:44:31,550 --> 00:44:33,430 I didn't do anything. 473 00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:38,160 I just want my kids back. 474 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,880 I want their property, please, Madam Judge. 475 00:44:48,670 --> 00:44:51,190 Mr. Hawson, I have taken note of your arguments. 476 00:44:51,190 --> 00:44:55,350 Ms. Perron, we are listening to you. 477 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:13,280 From. 478 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:20,720 17 years old, so the age of my daughter, I. 479 00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:23,120 I take care of my children alone every day. 480 00:45:29,500 --> 00:45:33,260 When we met, I was very young. 481 00:45:33,340 --> 00:45:35,980 I had never had a real relationship before. 482 00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:41,920 And very quickly, I fell in love with him. 483 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:52,360 I He entered my life and my family, my friends welcomed him very quickly. 484 00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:54,800 He was funny, he was a handsome boy. 485 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:56,560 I was I was proud to be with him. 486 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:05,280 And so, I hadn't finished my studies yet when I got pregnant with Lila. 487 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:09,520 At first, I felt supported. 488 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,320 He was very present. 489 00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:16,240 I remember him being there at the first ultrasound. 490 00:46:16,240 --> 00:46:17,920 Excuse me, Madam Judge. 491 00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:18,890 Aren't we a little out of place? 492 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:23,800 If you don't mind letting Madam express herself as we just did for everyone. 493 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:28,320 Continue. 494 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:33,120 Actually, yes, that's it. 495 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,760 I think it got worse when I was pregnant. 496 00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:51,920 I remember one time when he came home, well, it happened maybe once or twice, I was sitting on the couch and then, like a lot of moms, you know, I was talking to my baby in my belly. 497 00:46:52,720 --> 00:47:05,840 And I remember saying to my baby, “Look, there’s daddy here.” And then, I was surprised because he replied: "You don't give a damn about dad, you don't even think about me anymore, only your stomach exists." 498 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:15,000 Well, I felt very alone. 499 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:23,760 He often told me that he needed to see certain friends that I didn't even know, that I had never met in fact. 500 00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:32,640 In fact, I realize when I talk to you that I knew almost no one around him, even his family. 501 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:36,080 In fact, I saw them very little, I don't know. 502 00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:38,400 Maybe once, I. 503 00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:39,360 And. 504 00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:41,600 I stopped myself from trying to leave it to my family. 505 00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:42,040 Mr. Gourson. 506 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:59,120 And I also remember the time we went to her parents to introduce Lila and I felt completely dispossessed of my daughter. 507 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:06,800 Because he told me all the time, well, he wanted his mother to take care of him constantly. 508 00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:18,880 He always said to me, “Look, she looks good, look, it’s better like this, it’s better like that.” It seemed to me that even his mother was embarrassed by this because maybe she told him. 509 00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:24,720 I realized it because we never saw each other again afterwards and I found it strange. 510 00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:27,440 Okay, there you go. 511 00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:28,080 And. 512 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,840 After that, he distanced himself from his family and me. 513 00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:38,880 I don't know why. 514 00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:46,240 And so, in fact, from then on, I started to feel really, really alone. 515 00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:56,800 I remember spending whole days and nights having to manage everything, the house, the shopping, the cleaning, my daughter, the studies that I had to resume. 516 00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:00,960 He was there when there were people, but when it was just us, he never stayed. 517 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:01,960 He always went away. 518 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,120 I didn't always know where he slept. 519 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:08,560 And sometimes for several days. 520 00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,920 So I admit that I didn't ask questions. 521 00:49:14,720 --> 00:49:16,880 I didn't even think about what he could do. 522 00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,080 Today, I know. 523 00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:26,960 I learned that he actually already had another relationship in Liège, near his parents. 524 00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:35,280 And then, when we separated, we agreed that he would take his daughter every other weekend. 525 00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:50,160 And then, I had the impression that, as we were officially separated, that all of a sudden, when we saw each other, when we crossed paths for the children, 526 00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,000 He was trying to seduce me. 527 00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:56,480 I remember him complimenting me. 528 00:49:58,240 --> 00:50:03,520 I had the impression that he was trying to make up for it or to make me and my daughter love him again. 529 00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:09,240 So, one thing led to another, we spent more time together. 530 00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:12,240 He was at home regularly. 531 00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:18,400 And there, it's true that a bit like at the beginning, I found him kind, attentive and 532 00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:22,320 And we got back together. 533 00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:24,000 And then I got pregnant with my son. 534 00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:30,800 And obviously, subsequently, very quickly, the same pattern repeated itself. 535 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:33,450 Can you come back to your children? 536 00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:34,400 Yes. 537 00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,440 So he was happy to have a son. 538 00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:44,960 Although, frankly, I have the impression that he quickly lost interest. 539 00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:50,480 I remember him telling me that having two children was too much for him, that it wasn't his plan, that it was me who wanted that. 540 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:52,000 So. 541 00:50:52,080 --> 00:51:02,240 Afterwards, as the children grew up, I began to notice that the bond between them and their father became more complex. 542 00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,120 It became much more confrontational. 543 00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:13,280 First, between Lila and him, she often told me that he was very demanding of her, that he asked a lot of things from her. 544 00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:17,840 I realized that she was so afraid of disappointing her father. 545 00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:24,600 Than her because, as he said himself, he was always a very good student. 546 00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:29,880 She had excellent results, she was at the top of her class, but she had insomnia. 547 00:51:30,720 --> 00:51:34,720 Finally, she was not a happy child. 548 00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:44,120 And there she was, little by little, at the beginning of her adolescence. 549 00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,120 She wanted to see him less and less. 550 00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:53,520 She said that he constantly criticized her and that she no longer really felt loved by him. 551 00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,640 There you go, I remember her making up excuses not to go. 552 00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:10,840 That's it, this period coincided precisely with the moment when Étienne began to have his problems. 553 00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:16,480 So I first took him to a psychologist. 554 00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,360 The father was informed at that time. 555 00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:23,200 Moreover, he himself accompanied his son twice to the interviews. 556 00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:34,720 And then, when I informed him, that's what I wanted to go see a gastroenterologist with Étienne and he was completely opposed to it. 557 00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:39,240 He never wanted to hear about it, he opposed treatment. 558 00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:39,760 This is false. 559 00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:41,840 No, it's true, it's true. 560 00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:57,920 There you have it, Étienne's problems began to prevent him from pursuing a traditional education. 561 00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:01,440 He fears-he fears constantly. 562 00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:05,000 He is always afraid that there will be leaks. 563 00:53:06,240 --> 00:53:07,040 He. 564 00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:14,960 He is afraid of being in public, of being smelly, of being rejected, of being made fun of. 565 00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:17,760 And that's it, it's complicated. 566 00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:27,280 Yes, that's it. 567 00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:33,720 I got into the habit, it's true, I got into the habit of putting some on him. 568 00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:44,640 Spare underwear in his schoolbag so that he can change them directly in the toilet, telling him that he can throw the dirty ones straight away in the trash to avoid having to keep them in his bag. 569 00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:46,160 There you go, well, naturally, there you go. 570 00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:49,800 So, all of this had a certain impact on my son's behavior. 571 00:53:51,920 --> 00:54:01,760 He became more and more withdrawn and his introversion caused a lot of people around us to worry about him and want to know what was going on. 572 00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:19,280 And then, it was in the presence of a relative who I will not name, that my son described singular and precise details regarding the sex of his father. 573 00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:28,240 I asked Étienne a few questions and he told me that he saw himself from above, crushed by him. 574 00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:34,880 I was so horrified to hear that. 575 00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:35,680 I. 576 00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:41,610 I mean, what kid says that? 577 00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:44,440 I. 578 00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:48,880 He told me that he only saw that, that he didn't remember anything else. 579 00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:55,000 And from the moment he told me that, I didn't want to insist that he actually commit suicide. 580 00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:59,200 I mean, he told me he didn't remember. 581 00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,480 I didn't want to insist so that he wouldn't invent or imagine anything. 582 00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,640 I guess I think what he's saying is already clear enough. 583 00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:11,040 Combined with the physical problems he has, I don't think it happens by chance. 584 00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:20,000 So there you have it, there are no witnesses, no, because there couldn't be any. 585 00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:27,290 And can you explain to us what you did following Stephen's revelations? 586 00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:28,000 Yes. 587 00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:30,560 SO. 588 00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:42,640 So, at first, I think I preferred not to believe it. 589 00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:56,560 Finally, it took a little time before I thought about everything, replayed the film in my head, and understood certain events, for example, better. 590 00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:06,560 The anal fissures that my son once had when he came home from his father's house are because now, of course, it seems obvious. 591 00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:11,640 I'm sorry I didn't think of it sooner. 592 00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:15,520 I should have, I should have understood. 593 00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:21,680 I think it's impossible to think that your child could go through that. 594 00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:25,680 It was violent, it was. 595 00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:28,720 Too violent, unimaginable for me. 596 00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:34,960 And that's it. 597 00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:46,120 I remember that yes, at the time, at that time and still today, Étienne had a lot of very violent tantrums. 598 00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:53,240 He And there you have it, I also Ben suddenly understood why he. 599 00:56:53,600 --> 00:57:01,920 He would sometimes punch the walls and yell, “Why are you doing that?” Well, he was suffering, he still suffers a lot. 600 00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:03,880 So. 601 00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:20,160 And when I spoke about it to Étienne's psychologist, she told me that she too had already had suspicions of sexual abuse, that she was wondering because Étienne often insulted his father during interviews and that she had also already observed him playing with dinosaur figurines. 602 00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:21,360 that he them. 603 00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:35,200 That he filled their mouths with plasticine as if to stop them from screaming. 604 00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:45,920 I found out what needed to be done. 605 00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:47,920 I first contacted SOS Inceste. 606 00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:53,040 They told me that they could not begin treatment until there was legal proceedings. 607 00:57:54,480 --> 00:58:01,920 Then, they referred me to the youth support service and there, I was encouraged to file a complaint for sexual assault. 608 00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:05,360 It's true that I didn't know what to do. 609 00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:11,200 And even today, I still don't know if I did everything right. 610 00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:19,840 But there it was, it seemed to me to be the only way to ensure that my son did not have to relive what he told me he had experienced. 611 00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:21,880 You have done everything there is to do, Madam. 612 00:58:27,300 --> 00:58:32,100 You know, Étienne's co-president is so acute, it's so debilitating. 613 00:58:32,820 --> 00:58:35,060 It prevents him from having the childhood life he should have. 614 00:58:35,860 --> 00:58:38,180 He constantly fears being in public. 615 00:58:42,660 --> 00:58:44,260 Madame said earlier that I. 616 00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:46,160 That I loved changing diapers. 617 00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:50,240 Do you think it makes me happy to change my 10 year old son's diapers 5 times a day? 618 00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:50,250 ? 619 00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:54,481 Do you think that makes me happy? 620 00:58:54,481 --> 00:58:54,491 ? 621 00:58:56,081 --> 00:59:06,241 So yes, for 2 years, since the legal proceedings began, I have been losing my mind. 622 00:59:06,241 --> 00:59:06,481 What. 623 00:59:06,801 --> 00:59:11,761 I you know, I thought I was going to be. 624 00:59:15,121 --> 00:59:23,361 I thought that I was going to be supported, that by declaring the facts, I was going to be supervised, in other words, supported, protected, accompanied by the justice system, by my loved ones. 625 00:59:23,521 --> 00:59:37,601 But in fact, I have the impression that most people would like to make people think that what my son or I, we, my children or I say to ourselves, is false, that we are lying rather than believing in what we have experienced. 626 00:59:38,001 --> 00:59:38,801 When I hear that. 627 00:59:39,681 --> 00:59:49,841 That we must maintain the link with the father when, I don't know, everything agrees that my son was raped. 628 00:59:50,881 --> 00:59:52,961 I have Ben I just want to scream. 629 00:59:57,361 --> 00:59:58,481 I use this term. 630 00:59:58,481 --> 01:00:01,721 Yes, yes, the father is a rapist. 631 01:00:03,681 --> 01:00:08,731 Forgive me for asking this question, but who wants to maintain a connection with their rapist? 632 01:00:11,841 --> 01:00:12,441 Person. 633 01:00:12,561 --> 01:00:16,171 So why are my children forced to do this? 634 01:00:20,641 --> 01:00:27,041 You know, the last time my son thought he saw his father in the street while accompanying me to the supermarket, he ran away, he froze. 635 01:00:27,041 --> 01:00:31,881 At first he was paralyzed, he was stunned and suddenly he ran away. 636 01:00:31,881 --> 01:00:35,721 He got on the first bus he saw and I met him on the other side of town. 637 01:00:39,441 --> 01:00:42,481 All this, even though it wasn't even his father who saw him, just a man who looked like him. 638 01:00:42,801 --> 01:00:45,041 I'm afraid of meeting him myself. 639 01:00:45,521 --> 01:00:46,721 He has already threatened us. 640 01:00:46,721 --> 01:00:50,241 He once came to my work telling my colleagues that I was kidnapping my children. 641 01:00:59,281 --> 01:01:01,201 I'm afraid of him too. 642 01:01:03,521 --> 01:01:08,881 I'm afraid of him, because I don't know him, I don't know what he could do, what he is capable of. 643 01:01:09,121 --> 01:01:16,161 I He's here, next to me now, I just want it to stop. 644 01:01:16,721 --> 01:01:20,761 And you know, it's not easy to realize that you have had an intimate relationship with someone who is capable of that. 645 01:01:24,481 --> 01:01:25,851 Have you finished, Madame Pierrot? 646 01:01:25,841 --> 01:01:27,681 No, what I would like is a little peace. 647 01:01:27,681 --> 01:01:33,041 There you go, I would like a little peace for me, for my children, for my children first, for me too. 648 01:01:33,841 --> 01:01:41,801 And I would also like to no longer have to ask Monsieur for his agreement regarding decisions to be made for the children, such as those concerning care. 649 01:01:42,161 --> 01:01:46,881 He still refuses to give his authorization so that Étienne can receive appropriate care. 650 01:01:46,881 --> 01:01:53,201 You know, excuse me for the details, but you know, regularly, I find little bits of dried poop all over Étienne's bed. 651 01:01:54,721 --> 01:01:56,641 According to doctors, he does this to protect himself. 652 01:01:56,641 --> 01:01:59,281 There, instinctively, it becomes unbearable. 653 01:01:59,281 --> 01:02:03,371 No, but excuse me, but Mr. Goossens, will you let my client speak until the end? 654 01:02:10,641 --> 01:02:13,601 So yes, it's true, I admit, sometimes I lose my temper. 655 01:02:14,721 --> 01:02:23,361 When Étienne refuses to go to school because he is afraid or because his stomach hurts, I still try to encourage him to go because I am afraid that I will be considered a bad mother. 656 01:02:24,721 --> 01:02:34,001 Who ends up getting into such a rage, who ends up getting into such a rage that he hits me, hits the walls until he hurts himself. 657 01:02:34,081 --> 01:02:34,801 Yes, it's true. 658 01:02:34,801 --> 01:02:38,161 Sometimes, I admit, it happened to me to break down, to use force. 659 01:02:38,161 --> 01:02:42,001 I sometimes pin him to the ground, hold him like that, until he calms down. 660 01:02:42,001 --> 01:02:44,081 I'm afraid, I'm afraid he'll hurt himself. 661 01:02:44,321 --> 01:02:47,761 I'm afraid he's going to jump out of the window like he already threatened to do. 662 01:02:47,921 --> 01:02:53,041 Yes, I locked him up, I tied him up, I doubled his doses of sleeping pills. 663 01:02:53,401 --> 01:02:55,601 All this under the gaze of his sister who is obviously angry with me. 664 01:02:55,601 --> 01:02:58,281 Now, for all this, I can't take it anymore. 665 01:02:58,281 --> 01:03:01,561 I have no more life and my son is broken, Madam, he is broken. 666 01:03:01,561 --> 01:03:04,801 And when I say exploded, I say it neither to shock nor by chance. 667 01:03:04,801 --> 01:03:10,161 I say it because the term is this, my son is in pain, he is suffering. 668 01:03:10,881 --> 01:03:13,681 So, who do we really want to protect? 669 01:03:13,681 --> 01:03:13,691 ? 670 01:03:15,841 --> 01:03:20,721 I have finished Madam Judge, thank you Madame Perron. 671 01:03:23,601 --> 01:03:28,001 Okay, now we're going to wrap up the interview. 672 01:03:29,681 --> 01:03:36,961 I will make my decision on possible measures on June 3. 673 01:03:37,841 --> 01:03:40,241 The decisions will be sent to you by mail. 674 01:03:40,881 --> 01:03:42,161 Thank you, you can go. 675 01:03:43,041 --> 01:03:45,761 Bye. 676 01:03:45,761 --> 01:03:51,121 You have been very good. 677 01:04:57,841 --> 01:05:06,611 Afterwards, there is. 678 01:05:09,251 --> 01:05:09,931 It's mom. 679 01:05:23,271 --> 01:05:24,081 How many words are left? 680 01:05:24,831 --> 01:05:26,311 A few, it will go quickly. 681 01:05:26,511 --> 01:05:30,351 I will savor it. 682 01:05:30,911 --> 01:05:31,441 Savor? 683 01:05:31,871 --> 01:05:32,111 Yeah. 684 01:05:34,031 --> 01:05:34,671 I don't know. 685 01:05:34,991 --> 01:05:35,951 Ah, maybe there. 686 01:05:37,791 --> 01:05:38,191 No. 687 01:05:40,641 --> 01:05:42,721 Wait, enjoy, it’s there. 688 01:05:43,681 --> 01:05:45,051 Too much, is there not too much? 689 01:05:45,121 --> 01:05:45,601 No. 690 01:05:48,601 --> 01:05:50,041 No, the words are there, there aren't too many. 691 01:05:50,161 --> 01:05:52,481 Ah! Ah well yes, well done. 692 01:05:56,561 --> 01:05:58,561 Mr Gosens would like to give you presents to the children. 693 01:06:00,041 --> 01:06:02,491 not see him, how many times should we say? 694 01:06:02,481 --> 01:06:03,521 Okay, I'll tell them. 695 01:06:03,801 --> 01:06:04,121 THANKS. 696 01:06:07,601 --> 01:06:08,411 Can't finish the game? 697 01:06:08,401 --> 01:06:08,961 No, it's okay to move on. 698 01:06:08,961 --> 01:06:10,411 Here we go ? 699 01:06:11,681 --> 01:06:11,961 Okay. 700 01:06:12,321 --> 01:06:12,641 Good. 701 01:06:14,801 --> 01:06:15,681 It's as you want. 702 01:06:15,681 --> 01:06:22,681 Either we pass in front of him or we wait here for him to leave. 703 01:06:23,881 --> 01:06:24,401 Mr. Gossel. 704 01:06:24,961 --> 01:06:35,521 Etienne! You don't come in! No, but you scare them! Let them go! Please don't come in. 705 01:06:35,521 --> 01:06:36,721 You can't stop me from giving them a gift. 706 01:06:36,721 --> 01:06:38,171 You're hurting them now, don't you see? 707 01:06:39,521 --> 01:06:39,761 Stop. 708 01:06:40,081 --> 01:06:40,801 You scare them. 709 01:06:40,921 --> 01:06:42,121 You are ridiculous. 710 01:06:43,041 --> 01:06:43,601 Let me pass. 711 01:06:44,081 --> 01:06:44,201 No. 712 01:06:55,281 --> 01:07:27,661 a gift for us look i'm not a monster 713 01:09:00,801 --> 01:09:01,411 What is this? 714 01:09:02,081 --> 01:09:02,571 What is this? 715 01:09:03,321 --> 01:09:04,171 What do you want? 716 01:09:05,121 --> 01:09:08,251 Are you breathing? 717 01:09:08,321 --> 01:09:08,481 Shit. 718 01:09:08,481 --> 01:09:09,211 ? Are you okay there? 719 01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:10,091 Are you breathing? 720 01:09:10,161 --> 01:09:11,451 Are you still breathing? 721 01:09:19,761 --> 01:09:19,881 Oh. 722 01:10:41,741 --> 01:10:49,581 He has fake hair, but I said to myself, I said to myself, it's not possible, there's something with his hair, he has fake hair. 723 01:10:53,441 --> 01:10:55,921 Look, the worst thing is that you can see the plastic. 724 01:10:56,001 --> 01:11:00,641 It's really in plastic mode. 725 01:11:04,321 --> 01:11:05,441 He was like that at the hearing. 726 01:11:05,441 --> 01:11:07,081 I think it's already because of the testosterone. 727 01:11:07,521 --> 01:11:08,731 What is testosterone? 728 01:11:09,441 --> 01:11:14,161 You see, old people have more hair, so they have lots of hair on their backs, but you don't have any, you're too small. 729 01:11:14,161 --> 01:11:15,721 If I have any, look, I'm not too small. 730 01:11:16,321 --> 01:11:19,691 I told myself that there was a little one, I need to see it, okay? 731 01:11:19,761 --> 01:11:19,921 Yes. 732 01:11:21,081 --> 01:11:21,681 It's not possible. 733 01:11:21,681 --> 01:11:23,321 Fortunately she is there to keep an eye on things. 734 01:11:23,441 --> 01:11:26,281 That's the kind of thing, it doesn't escape him, it never escapes him. 735 01:11:26,401 --> 01:11:28,241 I have a recording too. 736 01:11:28,241 --> 01:11:31,761 As I explained to you earlier, we are before Madam Judge. 737 01:11:32,641 --> 01:11:39,601 She is there to listen to you, she is there to hear you, but also to ask you questions because she must understand what is happening and the situation. 738 01:11:40,161 --> 01:11:41,131 Do you agree? 739 01:11:41,121 --> 01:11:44,531 You are here ? 740 01:11:45,761 --> 01:11:47,211 Can I ask you a few questions?