1 00:00:18,220 --> 00:00:21,260 OK, this interview is being tape -recorded. The interview is being 2 00:00:21,260 --> 00:00:22,660 an interview room at Hampton Police Station. 3 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:29,980 Robert, could you give me your full name, please? Robert Black. 4 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:31,600 OK, and your date of birth, please? 5 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:33,280 21 -4 -4 -7. 6 00:00:34,140 --> 00:00:37,840 The reason that Robert Black, I think, is one of the most dangerous people I've 7 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,120 ever met is because you would not look twice at him if you walked down the 8 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:46,000 street. He just looks ordinary, but his crimes were so horrific. 9 00:00:47,790 --> 00:00:52,190 If you saw a young girl, tell me what would happen then. 10 00:00:53,210 --> 00:00:54,690 He was admitting nothing. 11 00:00:55,110 --> 00:01:01,290 So how to prove all those years later that he was the man who had killed these 12 00:01:01,290 --> 00:01:02,290 girls? 13 00:01:02,810 --> 00:01:08,150 What happened after the arrest of Robert Black was even more remarkable than 14 00:01:08,150 --> 00:01:09,150 what happened before. 15 00:01:09,790 --> 00:01:13,270 There are a number of issues, Robert, that we would like to talk to you about. 16 00:01:13,450 --> 00:01:14,950 Are you happy enough with that? 17 00:01:15,450 --> 00:01:16,450 Carry on. 18 00:01:32,780 --> 00:01:36,160 A massive hunt for the missing girl was called off this afternoon after her body 19 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:37,160 was found in the lake. 20 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:44,480 Mrs. Maxwell said that that day had been the first time Susan had been allowed 21 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:45,480 to walk home alone. 22 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,480 Fifty officers are scouring the area looking for clues. 23 00:01:51,820 --> 00:01:56,560 Caroline was allowed out to play for just five minutes. She was last seen in 24 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:58,880 company of a 30 to 40 year old man. 25 00:02:03,950 --> 00:02:07,370 started near the spot where Sarah was found and worked their way upstream 26 00:02:07,370 --> 00:02:08,570 the banks of the River Trent. 27 00:02:08,789 --> 00:02:10,729 He's not going to stop us there, is he? 28 00:02:11,470 --> 00:02:14,850 Black drove his transit van through a village on the Scottish borders. 29 00:02:15,250 --> 00:02:19,530 Here he abducted a schoolgirl that was spotted and stopped by the local police. 30 00:02:19,890 --> 00:02:24,470 Maybe it was the beginning of the road to some sort of justice. 31 00:02:25,430 --> 00:02:30,030 Would you like to look at the person who murdered your daughter? 32 00:02:34,470 --> 00:02:39,050 We didn't find any forensic evidence that connected Robert Black with any of 33 00:02:39,050 --> 00:02:39,869 these children. 34 00:02:39,870 --> 00:02:43,650 A predatory paedophile who targeted young girls. 35 00:02:44,450 --> 00:02:45,990 How could it not be him? 36 00:02:47,710 --> 00:02:52,310 You really have to go into every dark corner of the case and try and get the 37 00:02:52,310 --> 00:02:53,310 next piece of evidence. 38 00:02:53,510 --> 00:02:58,450 Robert Black was the red flag killer. This had to work. There was no other way 39 00:02:58,450 --> 00:03:00,650 out. He's a vile, evil man. 40 00:03:00,950 --> 00:03:02,630 The man of the most... 41 00:03:03,370 --> 00:03:04,370 Evil current. 42 00:03:19,250 --> 00:03:20,730 14th of July, 1990. 43 00:03:21,130 --> 00:03:23,070 Seven years after Caroline. 44 00:03:23,430 --> 00:03:25,470 Eight years after Susie. 45 00:03:25,810 --> 00:03:27,630 Four years after Sarah Harper. 46 00:03:27,950 --> 00:03:32,250 The police officers stop the van and the driver of the van is Robert Black. 47 00:03:33,609 --> 00:03:38,770 underneath all the clutter, there is like a purpose -built sleeping bag. 48 00:03:39,650 --> 00:03:42,870 And in that sleeping bag, they found a wee girl. 49 00:03:43,370 --> 00:03:46,690 Pulled the girl out, and Robert Black's arrested. 50 00:03:49,910 --> 00:03:55,370 It was immediately apparent that the circumstances of that abduction were 51 00:03:55,370 --> 00:03:56,930 special, to say the least. 52 00:03:57,870 --> 00:04:03,900 The way in which she had been very forcibly bound, gagged, This is out of 53 00:04:03,900 --> 00:04:05,640 ordinary. This is just not right. 54 00:04:05,860 --> 00:04:07,020 This is not a first time. 55 00:04:07,580 --> 00:04:09,780 He's done this before, without doubt. 56 00:04:10,940 --> 00:04:13,240 There was more to this guy than we thought. 57 00:04:27,980 --> 00:04:31,180 Immediately you have a localised crime to investigate. 58 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,720 While you're doing that, you're discovering things at that crime scene 59 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,240 that vehicle that set alarm bells ringing big style. 60 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:48,000 He was a driver. He delivered posters throughout the UK. He had a van, which 61 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:49,660 used basically as a mobile home. 62 00:04:51,140 --> 00:04:56,580 He had sleeping bags, he had a foam mattress, he had foodstuffs, bindings, 63 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,420 implements which would suggest some form of... 64 00:05:01,020 --> 00:05:02,960 sexual activity taking place. 65 00:05:05,020 --> 00:05:09,200 Everything pointing to travelling the length and breadth of the country and 66 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,560 prepared to forcibly abduct children. 67 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,580 And it was really quite menacing. 68 00:05:16,860 --> 00:05:22,040 He's a loner. He has failed to have relationships with adults. 69 00:05:22,280 --> 00:05:25,000 He was obsessed by pornography. 70 00:05:25,620 --> 00:05:27,380 He's obsessed by children. 71 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,200 He is the classic offender. 72 00:05:33,230 --> 00:05:37,930 Robert Black appeared at the High Court in Edinburgh in August of 1990. 73 00:05:38,230 --> 00:05:44,930 Within less than a month of his arrest, he was tried and convicted. 74 00:05:45,070 --> 00:05:47,130 He pled guilty for the offence in Stow. 75 00:05:48,030 --> 00:05:54,710 He was sentenced to a mandatory life sentence for abduction and assault to 76 00:05:54,710 --> 00:05:55,710 danger of life. 77 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,960 Robert Black left Edinburgh High Court to start a life sentence for what the 78 00:05:59,960 --> 00:06:04,160 judge described as a horrific, appalling case. The court was told that if she 79 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,100 hadn't been discovered, she could have died within the hour. 80 00:06:10,140 --> 00:06:17,020 We have Robert Black in prison and we still have three unsolved significant 81 00:06:17,020 --> 00:06:19,840 major child murder inquiries on our hands. 82 00:06:21,610 --> 00:06:25,790 It was quite clear at that stage that given the circumstances that we already 83 00:06:25,790 --> 00:06:30,990 knew about the deaths before, previously of Susan Maxwell in 1982, Caroline Hogg 84 00:06:30,990 --> 00:06:37,810 in 1983, and Sarah Harper, and the abduction in Stow, that this could very 85 00:06:37,810 --> 00:06:43,110 be the most viable suspect that we'd yet seen to date after all these years of 86 00:06:43,110 --> 00:06:44,110 investigation. 87 00:06:46,710 --> 00:06:48,230 They had him in prison. 88 00:06:48,630 --> 00:06:50,490 Now, could they prove? 89 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,660 that he had committed other murders. 90 00:06:54,200 --> 00:07:00,740 Maybe it was the beginning of the road to some sort of justice for the families 91 00:07:00,740 --> 00:07:03,860 of those whose daughters didn't survive. 92 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,260 When it's a child, it affects everyone. 93 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:16,140 Everybody wanted some answers and wanted someone being convicted for what 94 00:07:16,140 --> 00:07:17,140 happened. 95 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,920 And I saw a photograph of him and the description that we'd been given at the 96 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:23,980 time. I just knew it had to be him. 97 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:29,540 That was the man who'd committed the murder of Sarah Harper and the others. 98 00:07:29,940 --> 00:07:34,880 There was no question that this inquiry had to work. There was no other way out. 99 00:07:50,730 --> 00:07:56,130 We had three cases which were definitely linked together. They were massive in 100 00:07:56,130 --> 00:08:00,190 terms of documentation, records, forensics. 101 00:08:00,850 --> 00:08:05,050 To my knowledge, there's never been a linked serial murder investigation 102 00:08:05,050 --> 00:08:08,850 involving children to anything like the extent that this was. 103 00:08:09,390 --> 00:08:15,970 There was an inherent negativity, a fear that this was all too big, 104 00:08:16,010 --> 00:08:18,770 all too complex, all too challenging. 105 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:24,540 We had no idea whether there was any head of steam to take this to trial at 106 00:08:26,060 --> 00:08:29,540 We had huge responsibility and we just had to find a way through. 107 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,980 Detectives from Lothian and Borders have been questioning a 43 -year -old man. 108 00:08:34,799 --> 00:08:38,840 Inquiries into his background led them to visit a rented bedsit in the Stamford 109 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,940 Hill area of North London, where it's understood a number of items were 110 00:08:42,940 --> 00:08:44,280 for forensic examination. 111 00:08:45,450 --> 00:08:48,790 There were a huge number of challenges from a forensic perspective. 112 00:08:49,310 --> 00:08:53,150 The first one was just the sheer volume of work. 113 00:08:54,490 --> 00:08:59,230 In terms of Robert's accommodation in London, when we searched that flat, we 114 00:08:59,230 --> 00:09:01,770 discovered swimwear belonging to children, 115 00:09:02,610 --> 00:09:08,630 skirts, clothing, objects, which were used as part of his own self -abuse. 116 00:09:09,260 --> 00:09:14,900 There were something like 4 ,000 individual items ranging from tubes of 117 00:09:14,900 --> 00:09:20,180 toothpaste through to pornographic cinefilms. Child sex magazines, 118 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:26,900 videotapes which he spliced together, photographs, scrapbooks, but all 119 00:09:26,900 --> 00:09:33,100 very, very worryingly centred around the direct abuse of young female children. 120 00:09:35,950 --> 00:09:39,590 His entire material world was in the hall and loading on the board of the 121 00:09:39,590 --> 00:09:43,270 police. Everything he possessed, apart from whatever he wore in prison. 122 00:09:43,490 --> 00:09:47,810 It must have been an absolute nightmare to our forensic people to stand there 123 00:09:47,810 --> 00:09:51,090 and think, well, where do we start with this lot? 124 00:09:53,190 --> 00:09:57,810 It was probably the biggest case in the country since the Yorkshire Ripper 125 00:09:57,810 --> 00:09:58,810 investigation. 126 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:06,540 We went through pretty much all 4 ,000 items and we reduced them to 127 00:10:06,540 --> 00:10:07,900 a few hundred. 128 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:14,900 The focus on these items was to look for hairs, fibres, blood, 129 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:20,500 saliva that was being transferred to black from the victims or from the 130 00:10:20,500 --> 00:10:21,500 back to black. 131 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:27,980 Quite a tiring process, sparing down a microscope for hours on end. And, of 132 00:10:27,980 --> 00:10:29,780 course, if you get tired, you could miss something. 133 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:35,120 But despite the time spent on the case and the extent of the examinations, we 134 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:39,880 didn't find any forensic evidence that connected Robert Black with any of these 135 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,860 children. They went through every single item. 136 00:10:43,620 --> 00:10:49,620 Every single item. And at the end of the day, there was not one single item of 137 00:10:49,620 --> 00:10:52,080 evidence in there that forensically... 138 00:10:52,510 --> 00:10:54,810 linked Robert Black to these investigations. 139 00:10:56,290 --> 00:10:59,350 He wasn't talking. He was admitting nothing. 140 00:10:59,730 --> 00:11:05,590 So how to prove all those years later, without forensic evidence, that he was 141 00:11:05,590 --> 00:11:09,790 the man who had killed these three girls? 142 00:11:12,710 --> 00:11:16,870 In the absence of forensic evidence, I think it's realistic to say that 143 00:11:16,870 --> 00:11:18,450 the average member of the public... 144 00:11:19,090 --> 00:11:23,890 understands police work or detective work to be cctv cameras and forensic 145 00:11:23,890 --> 00:11:28,530 science nothing could be further from the truth certainly in 1990 nothing 146 00:11:28,530 --> 00:11:34,790 be further from the truth or in 1982 83 or 86 it was just slogging common 147 00:11:34,790 --> 00:11:40,530 down -to -earth detective work get out there do the work don't expect it to 148 00:11:40,530 --> 00:11:45,930 in fall into your lap you've got to go and find it And we began to dig in for a 149 00:11:45,930 --> 00:11:52,770 long haul, principally to try to eliminate Robert Black from his 150 00:11:52,770 --> 00:11:54,810 in these murders. And that's an important point. 151 00:11:55,610 --> 00:12:00,610 Sounds counterintuitive to the public, but it is in fact perfectly rational 152 00:12:00,610 --> 00:12:01,610 you think about it. 153 00:12:01,630 --> 00:12:06,550 Eliminate this person, and if you can't eliminate him, he's your man. 154 00:12:10,910 --> 00:12:13,430 You start to retrospectively... 155 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:18,420 looked back and put a magnifying glass over what was by then eight years of 156 00:12:18,420 --> 00:12:22,480 investigation. We decided a three -pronged approach would be the best way 157 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:28,640 strategically, and that consisted of looking at his employment records in 158 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,900 of the wages that he earned and in terms of the deliveries that he made. 159 00:12:33,580 --> 00:12:38,000 He was given what we called petrol cards. These were small, almost like a 160 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,960 card, which could be used at petrol stations to refill the vehicles. 161 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:47,100 We could build up a picture of not only the driver's use of the car, but Robert 162 00:12:47,100 --> 00:12:48,720 Black's personal use of the car. 163 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:54,080 He was a prolific hoarder of receipts. He would stop and buy a bottle of 164 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:58,300 lemonade. He would subsequently find a receipt in his flat in London for a 165 00:12:58,300 --> 00:13:02,720 particular place at a particular time on a particular date, on days which are of 166 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:04,040 significance to our inquiries. 167 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,980 You have a picture of us superimposing one element over another element. 168 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:10,660 Deliveries, petrol. 169 00:13:12,230 --> 00:13:16,930 The hunt for a possible triple child killer was stepped up at Easter when a 170 00:13:16,930 --> 00:13:21,270 police computer called Holmes came online after months of being fed with 171 00:13:21,270 --> 00:13:23,870 hundreds of thousands of separate pieces of information. 172 00:13:25,630 --> 00:13:31,350 The advantage of the Holmes computerised system was that it enabled research to 173 00:13:31,350 --> 00:13:37,030 be done retrospectively. The Holmes computer system was aptly named after 174 00:13:37,030 --> 00:13:38,890 Sherlock Holmes and it stands for... 175 00:13:39,230 --> 00:13:44,970 home office, large, major inquiry systems. So it was a database of 176 00:13:44,970 --> 00:13:46,390 on all major inquiries. 177 00:13:47,050 --> 00:13:51,470 There was dedicated officers working on the computers, and that was their role, 178 00:13:51,650 --> 00:13:54,750 sifting through the information that they had and putting it onto the 179 00:13:56,550 --> 00:14:00,670 The wife and where the bodies were found was very important. 180 00:14:01,810 --> 00:14:05,350 We've traced all the vehicles that he used over a period of years. We've 181 00:14:05,350 --> 00:14:08,290 physically recovered and forensically examined them. 182 00:14:08,700 --> 00:14:12,680 They used vans all the time. Once we discovered Robert Black was using white 183 00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:18,020 vans, we then looked back and we put in white van Coldstream, where Susan 184 00:14:18,020 --> 00:14:19,380 Maxwell was last seen. 185 00:14:20,260 --> 00:14:25,140 Boom. Up comes the unidentified sighting by witness A of a white van on the 186 00:14:25,140 --> 00:14:27,920 offside of the road south of the Tweed Bridge at Coldstream. 187 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:34,240 And at that time it was driven and used by Robert Black, who had shortly before 188 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:36,960 picked up petrol at Stannington Petrol Station. 189 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,340 And was en route to Edinburgh to deliver a poster. 190 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,320 The home computer was absolutely revolutionary. 191 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:46,860 It just saved months and months of work. 192 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,720 We plot him on these different days. We plot him on the 30th of July for Susan 193 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:59,600 Maxwell. We plot him for the 26th of March for Sarah Harper. And we plot him 194 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,880 the 8th of July for Caroline Hobb. 195 00:15:03,980 --> 00:15:05,660 Likewise, we plot him again. 196 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,800 on the days around the deposition dates. 197 00:15:09,300 --> 00:15:15,980 And we gradually see a very strong, very potent picture linking him entirely 198 00:15:15,980 --> 00:15:18,000 across these three incidents. 199 00:15:18,860 --> 00:15:23,020 That's always a realistic possibility that somebody else might come out from 200 00:15:23,020 --> 00:15:25,800 mass of evidence as being a more preferred suspect. 201 00:15:26,980 --> 00:15:32,960 Didn't happen in this case. From day one, Robert Black was the red flag 202 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:34,800 He was implicated at every turn. 203 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:42,400 Putting together the huge circumstantial case that Hector Clark and Roger Orr 204 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:43,860 did was astonishing. 205 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:51,720 They wove an incredibly complex fine mesh net to show that Robert Black 206 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:57,140 had the motive, he had the opportunity, he was there at the time. 207 00:15:58,140 --> 00:16:04,400 They simply put together a case which is so compelling, which showed Robert 208 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,580 Black. in all the right places at the right times. 209 00:16:08,060 --> 00:16:11,880 It was immensely challenging on multiple fronts. 210 00:16:12,180 --> 00:16:18,760 What began to emerge was an idea seeking to use a very unique legal process 211 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:20,840 known as similar fact evidence. 212 00:16:22,100 --> 00:16:28,620 Evidence of similar fact means you could use the example of the abduction in 213 00:16:28,620 --> 00:16:31,700 Stowe to say, look, this is what he did. 214 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,200 And here is Susie Maxwell. 215 00:16:35,110 --> 00:16:36,230 identical circumstances. 216 00:16:36,550 --> 00:16:39,910 And here is Caroline Hogg, identical circumstances. 217 00:16:40,350 --> 00:16:43,570 And here is Sarah Harper, identical circumstances. 218 00:16:43,970 --> 00:16:47,550 So you're saying to the jury, how could it not be him? 219 00:16:48,470 --> 00:16:49,970 How could it not be him? 220 00:16:52,130 --> 00:16:56,750 The deputy chief of Lothian and Borders Police has headed a nine -year inquiry 221 00:16:56,750 --> 00:17:00,530 into the deaths of the three girls. Six police forces were involved. 222 00:17:00,910 --> 00:17:03,850 I can confirm that late today, 223 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:10,880 Criminal proceedings have been issued on the authority of the Crown Prosecution 224 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:17,339 Service against Robert Black, aged 44 years, a driver 225 00:17:17,339 --> 00:17:18,740 from London. 226 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,920 Robert Black was driven to Newcastle's Moot Hall for his Crown Court trial this 227 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:36,600 morning for the alleged abduction and murder of three schoolgirls in the 228 00:17:36,620 --> 00:17:40,800 The defendant himself was covered by a blanket as he emerged from a police van. 229 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,780 Fixed police forces have been involved in the inquiry and have accumulated 20 230 00:17:45,780 --> 00:17:47,640 tonnes of paperwork and evidence. 231 00:17:50,580 --> 00:17:53,620 The mood in the courtroom was electric. 232 00:17:58,510 --> 00:18:02,970 that really contributed to the drama that was maintained throughout. 233 00:18:04,450 --> 00:18:09,130 I think I would be wrong if I said that there wasn't any tension in that 234 00:18:09,130 --> 00:18:10,130 building. 235 00:18:10,870 --> 00:18:15,150 I've never gone through anything like that in my life. I don't think I will 236 00:18:15,150 --> 00:18:18,870 again, and I think that applied equally to all the officers there, let alone 237 00:18:18,870 --> 00:18:21,650 Jackie Harper, Annette Hogg, the Maxwells. 238 00:18:22,170 --> 00:18:26,450 Jackie, Sarah's mum, how many years had passed and how old Sarah would have been 239 00:18:26,450 --> 00:18:27,450 at that point. 240 00:18:27,930 --> 00:18:30,630 I cannot imagine how that must have felt for her. 241 00:18:31,070 --> 00:18:35,910 You can never bring Susie back or Caroline back or Sarah. 242 00:18:36,130 --> 00:18:38,270 It destroys the families of these girls. 243 00:18:38,470 --> 00:18:39,470 You never bring them back. 244 00:18:40,670 --> 00:18:43,170 But it's important that justice be done. 245 00:18:43,970 --> 00:18:46,330 You can be confident, but you've got to be careful. 246 00:18:46,830 --> 00:18:51,430 Anything can happen, because the job's not over until that foreman stands up. 247 00:18:58,120 --> 00:19:02,520 Robert Black may be a convicted child molester, but that does not make him a 248 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,680 murderer, his defense counsel said today. 249 00:19:04,900 --> 00:19:09,580 And Ronald Thwaites QC took the highly unusual step of revealing Black's 250 00:19:09,580 --> 00:19:11,100 criminal record to the court. 251 00:19:12,140 --> 00:19:16,140 For the first time, the jury has been told that Black is already serving life 252 00:19:16,140 --> 00:19:18,920 imprisonment for the abduction of a girl in 1990. 253 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:24,360 But his criminal record goes back three decades, with sexual offenses against 254 00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:27,580 schoolgirls in 1963 and 1967. 255 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,040 The trial was just over five weeks. 256 00:19:33,610 --> 00:19:37,450 Robert was his normal self, or what we'd come to understand as his normal self, 257 00:19:37,510 --> 00:19:41,450 pretty detached, pretty much disinterested, very little interaction 258 00:19:41,450 --> 00:19:45,670 counsel, if any, no handing down of notes or contesting evidence. 259 00:19:48,270 --> 00:19:54,230 The most dramatic moment was when the jury, after weeks of listening to the 260 00:19:54,230 --> 00:19:57,750 increasingly compelling evidence, came back. 261 00:20:02,220 --> 00:20:05,940 The thing that I always remember was that because of the fact that we were 262 00:20:05,940 --> 00:20:11,420 linking these cases using similar fact, we understood that if the very first 263 00:20:11,420 --> 00:20:15,380 charge was found not guilty, the rest fell. 264 00:20:16,060 --> 00:20:21,620 Conversely, if the very first charge was found as a guilty, the rest were going 265 00:20:21,620 --> 00:20:22,620 to be guilty. 266 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:29,100 I looked up at Jackie Harper, I think, at the time, and she was kind of wide 267 00:20:29,100 --> 00:20:31,260 -eyed and semi -shocked looking. 268 00:20:31,950 --> 00:20:34,510 There's not a lot you could have said. There was nothing anybody could say. 269 00:20:34,830 --> 00:20:36,110 It was palpable. 270 00:20:41,090 --> 00:20:42,850 First charge in the Maxwell case. 271 00:20:45,390 --> 00:20:46,390 Guilty. 272 00:20:49,670 --> 00:20:53,330 It was just one massive sigh of relief. 273 00:21:00,010 --> 00:21:03,850 And then the doorman just proceeded to read out the ten verdicts of guilty. 274 00:21:06,570 --> 00:21:11,250 The families of his three victims listened and with considerable dignity 275 00:21:11,250 --> 00:21:15,910 the judge call Robert Black a very dangerous man and sentenced him to life 276 00:21:15,910 --> 00:21:17,510 imprisonment ten times over. 277 00:21:20,590 --> 00:21:24,230 When he was convicted for all three of the murders, I can't tell you, it was 278 00:21:24,230 --> 00:21:27,350 just a fantastic day in my life. I was so pleased. 279 00:21:27,670 --> 00:21:32,850 Anybody that can pick up a young child from a roadside and do the things he did 280 00:21:32,850 --> 00:21:36,410 to them just cannot be anything other than evil. 281 00:21:38,310 --> 00:21:44,430 I remember afterwards Susan's mother telling me she was very grateful to the 282 00:21:44,430 --> 00:21:48,070 jury for returning a unanimous verdict. 283 00:21:48,620 --> 00:21:54,180 It seemed very important to her that they all agreed that he'd done it. Very, 284 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,520 very relieved at the verdict. 285 00:21:56,900 --> 00:22:01,100 We'd like to thank the jury for coming to the right and just decision, although 286 00:22:01,100 --> 00:22:02,940 we've had a long wait for it. 287 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:08,280 There was enormous relief for the parents and the police who'd grown close 288 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:09,880 during this exhaustive investigation. 289 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:15,720 He's a vile, evil man, a man of the most evil kind. 290 00:22:18,250 --> 00:22:24,850 Robert Black was evil, sadistic, had no compassion 291 00:22:24,850 --> 00:22:29,830 for his victims, for his children that he abducted and murdered, or for the 292 00:22:29,830 --> 00:22:30,990 families that were left behind. 293 00:22:32,550 --> 00:22:36,170 A strange thing happened just immediately after the verdicts were 294 00:22:36,330 --> 00:22:40,630 Black was being taken down the steps and into the cell holding area below where 295 00:22:40,630 --> 00:22:45,870 we were. And unbelievably, and still unexplained to this day, he hesitated 296 00:22:45,870 --> 00:22:46,870 he looked up. 297 00:22:47,530 --> 00:22:49,170 He was looking directly at me. 298 00:22:49,610 --> 00:22:52,750 And all he said was, well done, boys. 299 00:22:53,910 --> 00:22:56,350 And immediately put his head down and went down the steps. 300 00:22:59,890 --> 00:23:00,990 Never forget that. 301 00:23:03,410 --> 00:23:04,410 Yeah. 302 00:23:05,850 --> 00:23:06,850 Not easy. 303 00:23:08,690 --> 00:23:12,910 Today, one of Britain's most far -reaching murder investigations finally 304 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,500 But the questions about what other terrible crimes Black may be responsible 305 00:23:17,500 --> 00:23:18,820 are only just beginning. 306 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,940 Detectives working on unsolved cases want to visit Black in jail to find out 307 00:23:24,940 --> 00:23:28,560 he killed even more children to satisfy his perverted mind. 308 00:23:29,540 --> 00:23:34,600 We were given probably, I think, in excess of 40 cases to look at. And in 309 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,700 of those cases, we were able to eliminate him positively because we had 310 00:23:38,700 --> 00:23:41,160 receipt placing him in a certain place on a certain date. 311 00:23:43,210 --> 00:23:44,870 One or two other cases, perhaps. 312 00:23:47,190 --> 00:23:48,750 There's a good chance this is him. 313 00:23:50,150 --> 00:23:55,810 Two of them were Jeanette Tate in Devon in 1978 and Jennifer Cardy in Northern 314 00:23:55,810 --> 00:23:57,030 Ireland in 1981. 315 00:24:08,870 --> 00:24:11,190 There was an opening of the case again in 1996. 316 00:24:12,290 --> 00:24:16,690 Detectives from Northern Ireland went across to England and spent time going 317 00:24:16,690 --> 00:24:17,690 through this. 318 00:24:18,410 --> 00:24:24,490 We met the police in secret because we didn't want the press to get hold of it. 319 00:24:24,890 --> 00:24:31,050 We knew that there was a lot of work to be done, tons of paperwork to go 320 00:24:31,050 --> 00:24:33,970 through, fan loads of it. We knew all of that. 321 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:39,100 Detectives from Devon and Cornwall Police and their colleagues from the RUC 322 00:24:39,100 --> 00:24:42,960 come here to Wakefield, where they interviewed Robert Black until late last 323 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,900 night. They want him to give them information about the disappearance of 324 00:24:46,900 --> 00:24:49,780 Jeanette Tate and the murder of Jennifer Cardy. 325 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:56,200 Robert Black was interviewed, but there were no firm conclusions drawn from that 326 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,860 interview. He never admitted that he was in Northern Ireland, and it was decided 327 00:25:00,860 --> 00:25:03,260 at that point that there wasn't enough. 328 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,860 to go forward with the prosecution and the case went cold again. 329 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:14,480 Jennifer was always missed, always talked about and always missed. 330 00:25:15,140 --> 00:25:18,720 But as a family, we had to live as a family. 331 00:25:19,220 --> 00:25:24,960 Now, that doesn't mean to say that we didn't suffer and miss 332 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:30,700 Jennifer and think about it in our quiet times, but we didn't live it in front 333 00:25:30,700 --> 00:25:31,700 of other people. 334 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:33,240 We didn't live in fear. 335 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,840 2002, I'm promoted as Detective Chief Inspector. 336 00:25:47,060 --> 00:25:53,260 The outgoing CID officer did a handover in their office and said, have you heard 337 00:25:53,260 --> 00:25:56,800 of the Jennifer Cardy case? And literally handed me a green folder. 338 00:25:57,780 --> 00:25:59,640 I actually read it that night. 339 00:26:00,190 --> 00:26:04,990 There were three people that were possibly connected to having carried out 340 00:26:04,990 --> 00:26:10,310 offence. Only one of them was a fixated, paedophile, child molester of the 341 00:26:10,310 --> 00:26:11,530 nature of Robert Black. 342 00:26:12,870 --> 00:26:18,030 When Jennifer went missing, my father, he was a station sergeant, there was 343 00:26:18,030 --> 00:26:20,830 actually a required drink with my father, just talking, and he brought up 344 00:26:20,830 --> 00:26:23,770 Cardiff case, turned around and said to me, if there's one thing you do before 345 00:26:23,770 --> 00:26:25,710 you retire, solve the Cardiff case. 346 00:26:27,210 --> 00:26:29,150 The one thing that struck me... 347 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:34,120 that he was convinced that he would put an end to this. 348 00:26:34,820 --> 00:26:40,880 Raymond was on mission, and his mission was that someday he would finish this 349 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:41,880 case. 350 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:54,160 We went up to Myer Police Station, the whole family, and they talked about how 351 00:26:54,160 --> 00:27:00,470 they're going to reopen the case and try and get... Robert Black, I didn't think 352 00:27:00,470 --> 00:27:04,730 they were going to get a conviction because there was very little forensic 353 00:27:04,730 --> 00:27:08,610 evidence and it might be going on more circumstantial evidence. 354 00:27:09,630 --> 00:27:12,670 When you begin to look at the material that has been gathered diligently over 355 00:27:12,670 --> 00:27:15,790 the years, you suddenly begin to realise that this is actually a massive task. 356 00:27:17,430 --> 00:27:20,450 We knew it was going to be a long haul. We knew this was not going to be a case 357 00:27:20,450 --> 00:27:23,350 that was going to be resolved in weeks or months and actually it was going to 358 00:27:23,350 --> 00:27:25,160 be. probably measured in years. 359 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,300 To be honest, you're supposed to get operational names out of a government 360 00:27:29,300 --> 00:27:34,720 database so that nobody duplicates it, but we did go slightly off -piste and we 361 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:39,140 felt that Operation Perseverance was probably the best name for it because 362 00:27:39,140 --> 00:27:41,420 is what it was going to take. 363 00:27:43,140 --> 00:27:45,140 We thought it would take years. 364 00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:49,680 We knew it would take years. I think they told us that at the time. 365 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,380 So we were content to sit back. 366 00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:00,980 What we did was re -interview every major member of the poster industry that 367 00:28:00,980 --> 00:28:04,620 could find. And during those investigations, we found a new witness. 368 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:11,100 A man who owned multiple poster display sites in a town called Newry in Northern 369 00:28:11,100 --> 00:28:17,000 Ireland. And the town of Newry is located at the bottom of the A1. And 370 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,080 Dam, where Jennifer's body was located, is halfway along the A1. 371 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:29,680 We knew that he came in on the ferry and the ferry was docked at 7am. We could 372 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:31,580 prove that then from the harbour records. 373 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:37,300 We knew that his deliveries would have been completed by 11am, which put him 374 00:28:37,300 --> 00:28:42,400 right in the absolute time frame for having abducted Jennifer somewhere in 375 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,580 around 1 .40pm to 2pm when she was on her bicycle travel. 376 00:28:50,670 --> 00:28:54,290 Jennifer's watch so that Jennifer would have the right time to know when to come 377 00:28:54,290 --> 00:29:00,690 back. The watch had stopped at 5 .40, which again gave Black plenty of time to 378 00:29:00,690 --> 00:29:04,110 get to Belfast, to be at the dock, to get on the ferry. 379 00:29:05,030 --> 00:29:10,610 It was all these granular examinations that really began to harden up the time 380 00:29:10,610 --> 00:29:14,350 frame and that circumstantial case began to get tighter and tighter and tighter. 381 00:29:17,990 --> 00:29:23,580 We felt that actually the case, putting Robert Black in Northern Ireland had got 382 00:29:23,580 --> 00:29:25,460 really, really strong. 383 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:31,220 We thought we had a body of evidence, but we were never going to be satisfied 384 00:29:31,220 --> 00:29:37,080 with that. You really have to go into every single dark corner of the case and 385 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,540 try and get the next piece of evidence. A decision was made at that time that we 386 00:29:40,540 --> 00:29:42,120 would move towards interviewing Black himself. 387 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,900 The PSNI review approached me and asked me for any advice or assistance that I 388 00:29:51,900 --> 00:29:56,180 could give them in relation to the particular aspect of interviews with 389 00:29:56,180 --> 00:30:00,220 Black. And I think that was valuable that we were able to give that to 390 00:30:00,220 --> 00:30:06,220 investigators who themselves would be faced with a limited time to cover a lot 391 00:30:06,220 --> 00:30:07,820 of material and a lot of points. 392 00:30:09,340 --> 00:30:11,500 The planning for the interview took a year. 393 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,760 The interviewers were very carefully picked, all highly, highly experienced. 394 00:30:17,610 --> 00:30:22,030 And we decided to use a male and a female interviewer. 395 00:30:22,970 --> 00:30:27,210 We talked to Roger about how that might create an interesting dynamic. 396 00:30:28,830 --> 00:30:34,070 The first key objective was, can we get him to admit that he is in Northern 397 00:30:34,070 --> 00:30:35,110 Ireland on the 12th of August? 398 00:30:38,870 --> 00:30:41,990 Okay, this interview has been tape recorded. The interview is being 399 00:30:41,990 --> 00:30:43,410 an interview room at Anthon Police Station. 400 00:30:45,530 --> 00:30:47,010 Robert, could you give me your phone name, please? 401 00:30:47,390 --> 00:30:48,109 Robert White. 402 00:30:48,110 --> 00:30:49,470 Okay, and your date of birth, please? 403 00:30:49,850 --> 00:30:51,150 21 -4 -4 -7. 404 00:30:51,970 --> 00:30:55,510 There are a number of issues, Robert, that we would like to talk to you about. 405 00:30:55,810 --> 00:30:57,170 Are you happy enough with that? 406 00:30:57,790 --> 00:30:59,270 Carry on and see how it goes. 407 00:30:59,550 --> 00:31:00,550 Okay. 408 00:31:01,410 --> 00:31:03,330 I've got one question, though. Yeah. 409 00:31:05,370 --> 00:31:10,250 Why, in this situation, is it always a female officer that talks about these 410 00:31:10,250 --> 00:31:11,250 things? 411 00:31:12,390 --> 00:31:13,390 In what respect? 412 00:31:14,090 --> 00:31:16,290 When I'm being interviewed by a male and a female. 413 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,860 It seems when I'm questioned about these murders, it's always the female ones 414 00:31:20,860 --> 00:31:21,860 that does the questioning. 415 00:31:25,100 --> 00:31:26,520 The interviews took three days. 416 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:31,860 They were covered across 21 separate audio tapes. And after each interview, 417 00:31:31,860 --> 00:31:34,740 would then discuss that interview. What had it told us evidentially? 418 00:31:35,260 --> 00:31:38,440 How it was impacting on him? Was he opening up? Was he closing down? 419 00:31:38,860 --> 00:31:40,700 What if he didn't speak? What if he did speak? 420 00:31:40,900 --> 00:31:42,160 What if he actually made a confession? 421 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:43,880 So it was really, really agile. 422 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,040 They immediately connected with the female interviewer, Pamela Simpson, 423 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:55,000 fantastic. And Pamela's big skill was she could talk about the most horrendous 424 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:59,760 things without any trace of judgment on either her face or her voice. 425 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,800 I'd be driving along and see a young girl. 426 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:10,380 I'd get out and talk to her and try to persuade her of getting into the van. 427 00:32:13,230 --> 00:32:16,950 One of the things we did in order just to build that rapport and the connection 428 00:32:16,950 --> 00:32:23,770 was we had an original Collins 1981 road atlas and we put that in front of him 429 00:32:23,770 --> 00:32:28,350 and he's just fascinated by it. He's tracing it with his finger, he's 430 00:32:28,350 --> 00:32:34,410 engrossed in this and we were fascinated watching him being fascinated and you 431 00:32:34,410 --> 00:32:37,150 can almost see that rapport growing. 432 00:32:38,470 --> 00:32:41,970 I'm not exactly proud of the way I feel towards young girls. 433 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:49,960 Like, there's the part of me that knows I'm wrong, that knows that it's wrong, 434 00:32:50,140 --> 00:32:56,140 that I shouldn't be doing things like that, I shouldn't even be thinking 435 00:32:56,140 --> 00:32:57,140 like that. 436 00:32:58,260 --> 00:33:03,720 But there's the other part that says, you like it, go on. 437 00:33:07,900 --> 00:33:11,140 She then moves from that to get into the more evidential stuff. 438 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:17,260 We have the receipt of you getting petrol in the Ireland vehicle. 439 00:33:17,780 --> 00:33:24,580 We also have the receipt of you getting diesel at sale, royal 440 00:33:24,580 --> 00:33:27,920 sale, in your mainland vehicle, again the same day. 441 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:33,580 Now, it's not aggressive, but it's much more robust. You can see just this 442 00:33:33,580 --> 00:33:35,180 gentle change in his expression. 443 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,440 Because he's a fairly impassive character. 444 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,860 And I thought, yeah, you know now that danger is all around and actually that 445 00:33:41,860 --> 00:33:43,360 the door's closing here on you. 446 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:50,900 We looked at the wages book as well. Do you accept that you did the Ireland run 447 00:33:50,900 --> 00:33:53,180 that week? 448 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,640 Yeah. You did. 449 00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:02,220 So in effect that you would have been in Ireland from the morning of Wednesday 450 00:34:02,220 --> 00:34:04,880 the 12th of August until that evening. 451 00:34:05,340 --> 00:34:10,980 He admitted he was in Northern Ireland and that was a big moment for us. 452 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:21,639 We knew the police were doing their utmost to bring this to a conclusion. 453 00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:27,980 There was obviously things they could tell us and there was things that we 454 00:34:27,980 --> 00:34:29,980 understood they couldn't tell us. 455 00:34:30,980 --> 00:34:34,340 We knew that it would come to... 456 00:34:35,020 --> 00:34:38,699 maturity in the end, and we left it with them to do that. 457 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,820 If you saw a young girl, tell me what would happen then. 458 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:51,540 In the course of those interviews, it became clear for the first time he was 459 00:34:51,540 --> 00:34:58,160 willing, or it appeared to be willing, to explore his culpability by way of a 460 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,880 fantasy. We'll look at her, try to guess what age she was, maybe. 461 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:09,220 I might park up for a couple of minutes and watch him. 462 00:35:09,540 --> 00:35:14,820 And how long would you sit and watch the young girl? 463 00:35:16,940 --> 00:35:18,340 More than five minutes. 464 00:35:19,780 --> 00:35:26,340 But effectively what he was doing was using the fantasy to admit his guilt 465 00:35:26,340 --> 00:35:28,160 to a particular extent. 466 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,660 In your fantasy, what the country situation would be like? 467 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,560 Well, it was just a narrow road. 468 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:40,320 It was going downhill. 469 00:35:41,860 --> 00:35:46,920 And way at the bottom of the hill where the road turned away, there was a house 470 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:48,640 set back from the road a bit. 471 00:35:50,140 --> 00:35:51,980 And it was the only house in sight. 472 00:35:53,860 --> 00:35:56,120 And as he was doing it, these officers... 473 00:35:56,350 --> 00:36:00,090 knew instinctively, having been at the location, that he was exactly describing 474 00:36:00,090 --> 00:36:03,510 the road in which Jennifer Cardy was abducted and the hedge in which Jennifer 475 00:36:03,510 --> 00:36:05,010 Cardy's bike was thrown behind. 476 00:36:06,130 --> 00:36:11,070 Spookily and chillingly, he was going as far as he was prepared to go in 477 00:36:11,070 --> 00:36:12,410 reliving those events. 478 00:36:13,270 --> 00:36:18,150 And he almost admitted that he had killed Jennifer. 479 00:36:18,970 --> 00:36:24,510 He described exactly the spot where he had lifted her. 480 00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:27,760 We described it perfectly, so we did. 481 00:36:29,220 --> 00:36:32,640 It's a tribute to those officers who interviewed him that they managed to get 482 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:33,640 him there. 483 00:36:33,700 --> 00:36:38,060 We felt in ourselves that we'd met the threshold, and then we began to 484 00:36:38,060 --> 00:36:40,900 the main file to go forward to the court process. 485 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,660 I was... nearly sick in the stomach, going to court. 486 00:36:57,060 --> 00:37:03,740 In truth, would you like to look at the person who murdered your daughter? 487 00:37:04,980 --> 00:37:07,200 That's a big thing for Pat and I. 488 00:37:07,700 --> 00:37:11,920 We often talked about it. Wish we never knew who had been caught. 489 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,520 Wish we never had to look at the man who had been caught. 490 00:37:16,780 --> 00:37:18,940 I was concerned about the impact on the family. 491 00:37:19,310 --> 00:37:24,410 Although I knew they were very, very resilient, but even so, having 492 00:37:24,530 --> 00:37:26,750 put by that stage, was a 30 -year journey. 493 00:37:28,170 --> 00:37:34,810 I had to sit watching this man, and he described why he liked little 494 00:37:34,810 --> 00:37:36,590 girls rather than mature women. 495 00:37:37,350 --> 00:37:44,010 And, you know, all I could do was sit and weep at the thoughts of what our 496 00:37:44,010 --> 00:37:45,430 child had went through. 497 00:37:45,650 --> 00:37:47,250 It would have broke your heart. 498 00:37:48,910 --> 00:37:52,930 His expression never changed, he never changed, even though there was things 499 00:37:52,930 --> 00:37:58,030 said against him, accusations, information, his face never changed. 500 00:38:02,130 --> 00:38:07,750 I remember waiting, and I can remember the jury coming back, and I can remember 501 00:38:07,750 --> 00:38:14,750 the judge warning that there should be no celebrations or any noise when 502 00:38:14,750 --> 00:38:15,970 the verdict was announced. 503 00:38:19,530 --> 00:38:24,410 And the poor man announced that he was guilty. 504 00:38:24,830 --> 00:38:29,670 The verdict came back unanimous from the jury. 505 00:38:29,950 --> 00:38:31,710 It was just such a release. 506 00:38:32,070 --> 00:38:36,470 Since 1981, we've been waiting for so long for this. 507 00:38:37,190 --> 00:38:43,550 We knew that this murder of Jennifer will not finish without 508 00:38:43,550 --> 00:38:44,890 an end result. 509 00:38:45,150 --> 00:38:46,690 We always had that. 510 00:38:47,150 --> 00:38:52,050 faith to know that the Lord would eventually reveal who killed Jennifer. 511 00:38:53,250 --> 00:39:00,050 We as a family really have never tried to understand or tried to think of 512 00:39:00,050 --> 00:39:05,170 what in the last hours of her life that she went through and all of a sudden 513 00:39:05,170 --> 00:39:11,930 were confronted with the awfulness of them last few hours and what she would 514 00:39:11,930 --> 00:39:15,070 have had to suffer and that has been truly awful. 515 00:39:15,850 --> 00:39:21,090 Whatever I said was from my heart, but in truth I can't remember. 516 00:39:21,570 --> 00:39:28,490 Black stole the life of our daughter Jennifer, but Robert Black didn't steal 517 00:39:28,490 --> 00:39:30,350 lives of me and my family. 518 00:39:31,490 --> 00:39:34,650 Police say the investigation into Robert Black continues. 519 00:39:35,350 --> 00:39:38,530 The story of Robert Black doesn't end with this verdict here today. 520 00:39:38,930 --> 00:39:44,290 There are lines of inquiry which we still have and that we are still looking 521 00:39:45,770 --> 00:39:49,710 I had written to him when he was in prison and I asked for a visit. 522 00:39:50,630 --> 00:39:53,230 I only sent the one letter and I got no reply. 523 00:39:56,610 --> 00:40:00,830 I would have liked to have met him, talked to him and understood what's 524 00:40:00,830 --> 00:40:05,290 happened. I knew there was other families, other girls around the country 525 00:40:05,290 --> 00:40:09,370 never had closure and I would have really liked for them to have closure 526 00:40:11,750 --> 00:40:14,750 Black was convicted. He was given a tariff of 25. 527 00:40:15,610 --> 00:40:18,750 which in effect meant he would eventually die in prison. 528 00:40:19,710 --> 00:40:23,610 He did die in prison, but a lot sooner than we would have wanted. 529 00:40:24,330 --> 00:40:28,690 He died in 2016. The news came through that he'd passed away, natural causes, 530 00:40:28,810 --> 00:40:29,930 and had failed. 531 00:40:32,350 --> 00:40:39,190 I felt nothing when Robert Black died, except that perhaps he had died before 532 00:40:39,190 --> 00:40:43,030 could have been held to account for other murders. 533 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:50,780 including one very long -standing cold case in the West Country of Jeanette 534 00:40:50,780 --> 00:40:57,340 Tate, whose bicycle was found abandoned with the wheel still 535 00:40:57,340 --> 00:41:02,600 spinning in a road. And it's certain enough for Devon and Cornwall Police to 536 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,700 have been ready to charge him before he died. 537 00:41:06,020 --> 00:41:08,760 Her body has never to this day been found. 538 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,920 The inquiry was able to furnish Debenham Cornwall with a good deal of evidence. 539 00:41:14,180 --> 00:41:18,200 They themselves then developed that as best they could and were about to submit 540 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:22,580 full case files and paper to the Crown Prosecution Service literally within 541 00:41:22,580 --> 00:41:25,580 weeks of the death in prison of Robert Black. 542 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,140 It's taken a big chunk out of my life for many, many years. 543 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:44,760 It was a continuation of what I personally had always set out to do, 544 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:49,460 professionally to finish the case, to reach the finishing line. 545 00:41:50,860 --> 00:41:53,940 These cases happened at a time of seismic change. 546 00:41:54,300 --> 00:42:01,040 I think 100 years from now, if they're writing the history of the 547 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,300 turning points in criminal investigation... 548 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:08,780 then I think that this case will merit a chapter in that history because of all 549 00:42:08,780 --> 00:42:10,380 the unique circumstances that came together. 550 00:42:22,740 --> 00:42:26,760 This photograph here is of Jennifer. 551 00:42:27,500 --> 00:42:32,780 And one day she brought this photograph to me, framed. 552 00:42:33,870 --> 00:42:39,430 and she said, you don't have a photograph of me in your office, so 553 00:42:39,550 --> 00:42:40,550 put that in your office. 554 00:42:41,270 --> 00:42:46,090 These photographs are in the dressing table right beside my bed, so they are. 555 00:42:46,090 --> 00:42:51,950 reminds me what she looked like when she left home on her bike. 556 00:42:53,430 --> 00:42:55,510 I certainly miss Jennifer. 557 00:42:56,570 --> 00:42:58,710 You couldn't not miss Jennifer. 558 00:43:00,630 --> 00:43:02,470 Pat's passing has... 559 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,500 left a massive void. 560 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:13,040 We were married for 54 years and we lived here together 45 years 561 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:14,040 almost. 562 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:21,460 The fact that Pat was alive when Robert Black was convicted was 563 00:43:21,460 --> 00:43:23,620 a fantastic relief. 564 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,500 Pat started to write a memoir about Jennifer. 565 00:43:30,670 --> 00:43:33,010 It brings back so many emotions. 566 00:43:35,190 --> 00:43:37,370 I live a life of faith. 567 00:43:38,610 --> 00:43:40,610 Pat was now with Jennifer. 568 00:43:41,250 --> 00:43:46,030 Jennifer could never come back to us, but we can go to Jennifer.