1 00:00:29,863 --> 00:00:31,489 So, where were we? 2 00:00:32,323 --> 00:00:34,993 I know we stopped in, like, the middle of chapter two. 3 00:00:36,036 --> 00:00:37,912 "Her daemon's name was Pantalaimon, 4 00:00:37,996 --> 00:00:39,914 and he was currently in the form of a moth, 5 00:00:39,998 --> 00:00:43,460 then cat, snake, rat, fox, bird, wolf, cheetah, lizard, 6 00:00:43,835 --> 00:00:45,670 polecat, porcupine. 7 00:00:45,754 --> 00:00:48,882 After a moment or two, the daemon flicked from shape to shape more quickly 8 00:00:48,965 --> 00:00:51,801 than Emma had ever seen a daemon change before." 9 00:00:52,719 --> 00:00:54,888 Um, wait, wait, wait. So... 10 00:00:54,971 --> 00:00:57,724 ...her daemon is a... is like a moth or something. 11 00:00:57,807 --> 00:00:59,642 That does not seem very useful. 12 00:00:59,726 --> 00:01:02,103 So, her daemon can change forms whenever he wants. 13 00:01:02,187 --> 00:01:03,063 Oh! 14 00:01:03,146 --> 00:01:05,690 Yeah, so he's just a moth right now 'cause it's sneaky. 15 00:01:08,485 --> 00:01:10,125 What would my daemon be? 16 00:01:10,862 --> 00:01:11,738 I don't know. 17 00:01:11,821 --> 00:01:14,449 Mine would probably be, like, a magpie. 18 00:01:21,581 --> 00:01:24,876 - 26,000 views. It's crazy. - There we go. 19 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:26,628 This is bigger than HIV, right? 20 00:01:26,711 --> 00:01:32,133 This is about people being able to control their own genome. 21 00:01:32,217 --> 00:01:34,636 So far, all right, nothing is red 22 00:01:34,719 --> 00:01:36,197 - or irritated. - People will know 23 00:01:36,221 --> 00:01:37,764 the results one way or another. 24 00:01:37,847 --> 00:01:39,349 You'll be able to update us? 25 00:01:39,432 --> 00:01:40,683 - Correct. - Right. 26 00:01:40,767 --> 00:01:43,895 I'm surprised to see Aaron there because he... he should not be there. 27 00:01:43,978 --> 00:01:45,688 That's not smart. Um... 28 00:01:46,147 --> 00:01:47,357 He should, um... 29 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:48,942 It should just be Tristan. 30 00:01:49,442 --> 00:01:51,152 Like, this should be about Tristan. 31 00:01:51,236 --> 00:01:54,114 Through our company, we take these to manufacturing, 32 00:01:54,197 --> 00:01:57,158 and we are finding a way... to deliver it. 33 00:01:57,242 --> 00:01:59,678 My understanding of it was 34 00:01:59,702 --> 00:02:01,830 this is what Tristan wants to do, 35 00:02:01,913 --> 00:02:05,041 and Aaron's trying to reframe it as being about Ascendance. 36 00:02:05,125 --> 00:02:08,294 Go to www.ascendance.io. 37 00:02:08,378 --> 00:02:11,506 That's... first of all, a stupid mistake, legally. 38 00:02:12,257 --> 00:02:15,260 But also, it... it reframes the whole thing ethically too. 39 00:02:15,343 --> 00:02:20,348 We are taking, you know, what has been so effective... 40 00:02:20,431 --> 00:02:22,517 He's blowing it way out of proportion. 41 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:24,435 He's pushing these things as cures 42 00:02:24,519 --> 00:02:26,771 when they... we don't even know if it's gonna work. 43 00:02:26,855 --> 00:02:30,191 Our timeline is to have this available by January 1st. 44 00:02:30,275 --> 00:02:32,155 With or without the consent of the... the state. 45 00:02:32,235 --> 00:02:34,445 He shouldn't be selling it yet. It's not ready. 46 00:02:34,529 --> 00:02:37,031 You'll see more of that from us and more of that 47 00:02:37,115 --> 00:02:39,426 - from our company itself. - The entire biohacking community. 48 00:02:39,450 --> 00:02:41,035 Right? Like, it's not just us. 49 00:02:41,119 --> 00:02:45,832 We are just one part of a wave that is about to crash onto society. 50 00:02:45,915 --> 00:02:49,669 So, you can either ride with the wave or try to adopt a resistance to it, 51 00:02:49,752 --> 00:02:51,337 - but it's coming. - Yeah. 52 00:02:52,255 --> 00:02:54,132 I should've been more skeptical. 53 00:02:54,966 --> 00:02:57,218 I mean, he hasn't harmed anyone yet. 54 00:02:57,302 --> 00:03:00,388 Uh, though I don't think he's unwilling to risk it. 55 00:03:00,471 --> 00:03:03,892 And I'm concerned about that. 56 00:03:13,318 --> 00:03:15,599 We're on the verge of a technological breakthrough 57 00:03:15,653 --> 00:03:17,697 that could change the future of mankind. 58 00:03:21,034 --> 00:03:23,912 Most people have no idea how rapidly things are changing. 59 00:03:26,706 --> 00:03:30,084 We're now changing the DNA, the code of life. 60 00:03:32,837 --> 00:03:35,632 It's amazing, the sorts of things that we could do with this. 61 00:03:36,549 --> 00:03:38,885 The question is, should we? 62 00:03:42,347 --> 00:03:45,308 What happens if diseases were just eradicated? 63 00:03:48,978 --> 00:03:53,024 All technology is inherently about changing away from what is natural. 64 00:04:21,552 --> 00:04:24,013 Have you ever thought about how inefficient it all is? 65 00:04:24,681 --> 00:04:27,016 Like, trees having to grow up? 66 00:04:27,100 --> 00:04:29,102 It's purely in competition with other trees, right? 67 00:04:29,185 --> 00:04:32,939 There's no actual need for it, in terms of photosynthetic efficiency. 68 00:04:33,314 --> 00:04:35,274 Like, there's a reason why a sheet of solar panels 69 00:04:35,316 --> 00:04:37,485 is just a sheet of solar panels. It doesn't... 70 00:04:38,486 --> 00:04:40,405 You don't need to put them on towers. 71 00:04:41,990 --> 00:04:43,741 It's competition with other trees. 72 00:04:45,243 --> 00:04:48,663 It's that dog-eat-dog aspect of nature that forces trees to grow up. 73 00:04:50,623 --> 00:04:53,418 I mean, if only things could cooperate. 74 00:04:55,253 --> 00:04:59,882 But how do you determine with whom to trust enough to cooperate? 75 00:05:03,261 --> 00:05:04,512 I first got into evolution 76 00:05:04,595 --> 00:05:06,723 because it's the fastest way to change the world... 77 00:05:06,806 --> 00:05:07,974 at least, in science. 78 00:05:10,059 --> 00:05:13,271 So, to everyone who knew anything about genome engineering, 79 00:05:13,354 --> 00:05:14,939 CRISPR was the starting gun. 80 00:05:17,275 --> 00:05:19,986 CRISPR has become the tool for biologists, 81 00:05:20,069 --> 00:05:21,988 regardless of organism they're working with, 82 00:05:22,071 --> 00:05:25,074 because it does seem to work in every organism 83 00:05:25,158 --> 00:05:27,035 and lets you edit just about any gene. 84 00:05:30,121 --> 00:05:32,457 Sometime around then, I was walking through... 85 00:05:32,707 --> 00:05:34,584 the Emerald Necklace here in Boston, 86 00:05:35,084 --> 00:05:38,087 this beautiful stream and surrounding forest... 87 00:05:39,630 --> 00:05:41,215 looking at all the living things. 88 00:05:41,299 --> 00:05:44,010 There were some ducks and some ducklings. 89 00:05:46,304 --> 00:05:48,681 Then, at some point, I realized, "Wait a minute. 90 00:05:50,058 --> 00:05:54,354 What if you program an organism to do genome editing on its own? 91 00:05:56,564 --> 00:05:59,067 What if you insert a CRISPR system... 92 00:05:59,776 --> 00:06:00,776 into it?" 93 00:06:01,152 --> 00:06:04,781 That is, encode the instructions for how to do the editing 94 00:06:05,615 --> 00:06:07,700 along with the gene we want to replace, 95 00:06:08,201 --> 00:06:09,952 and it all went into the genome... 96 00:06:10,661 --> 00:06:11,871 as one piece. 97 00:06:13,081 --> 00:06:14,499 Then, the real magic happens 98 00:06:15,249 --> 00:06:16,834 when that organism mates 99 00:06:17,460 --> 00:06:20,296 with a wild organism, not engineered. 100 00:06:20,630 --> 00:06:23,508 Because then, in the offspring, editing would happen again. 101 00:06:25,218 --> 00:06:29,680 And all of its offspring would be guaranteed to inherit the change. 102 00:06:31,057 --> 00:06:33,267 And the process would happen again and again and again. 103 00:06:34,352 --> 00:06:37,313 So, this is called a CRISPR-based gene-drive system, 104 00:06:37,397 --> 00:06:40,274 a system capable of copying itself 105 00:06:40,358 --> 00:06:42,902 by genome editing in the wild... 106 00:06:44,529 --> 00:06:49,075 and very possibly spreading through every population of that species 107 00:06:49,158 --> 00:06:50,827 everywhere in the world. 108 00:06:52,620 --> 00:06:54,455 So, this was a striking realization. 109 00:06:56,833 --> 00:06:59,627 It has tremendous promise for doing good in the world. 110 00:07:02,755 --> 00:07:04,090 It also means that... 111 00:07:05,049 --> 00:07:06,134 we have a problem. 112 00:07:09,137 --> 00:07:11,180 In an organism like a mosquito, 113 00:07:11,722 --> 00:07:14,642 um, gene drive could be very good, right? 114 00:07:14,725 --> 00:07:16,686 As a way of, um, 115 00:07:16,769 --> 00:07:21,983 making, uh, mosquitoes unable to pass on all sorts of dreaded diseases 116 00:07:22,066 --> 00:07:26,863 that we've been trying for decades, if not longer, to eradicate. 117 00:07:26,946 --> 00:07:31,492 Gene drive is a new and risky 118 00:07:32,076 --> 00:07:34,370 genetic-engineering technology 119 00:07:34,454 --> 00:07:37,874 where the goal is to drive a single trait 120 00:07:37,957 --> 00:07:42,837 through a population, through a species, for all generations to come. 121 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:43,921 What you're saying is, 122 00:07:44,005 --> 00:07:46,632 "I'm not just going to engineer this single organism. 123 00:07:46,716 --> 00:07:49,218 As a result, I'm gonna engineer an entire population, 124 00:07:49,302 --> 00:07:51,095 and thereby, an entire ecosystem." 125 00:07:51,429 --> 00:07:54,223 Um, that's an immense amount of power. 126 00:07:54,515 --> 00:07:59,729 And the implications of being able to do that, if you can do that, are huge. 127 00:07:59,812 --> 00:08:02,106 To me, it's the most high-leverage technology 128 00:08:02,190 --> 00:08:04,275 I've seen, after, maybe, nuclear power. 129 00:08:04,650 --> 00:08:05,650 For example, 130 00:08:05,693 --> 00:08:08,571 you might try to drive a lethal trait through a species 131 00:08:08,654 --> 00:08:09,947 to make them extinct. 132 00:08:10,031 --> 00:08:11,949 Ultimately, you could describe it 133 00:08:12,033 --> 00:08:14,202 as an extinction technology. 134 00:08:14,285 --> 00:08:16,913 So, what... what are the implications of an ecosystem 135 00:08:16,996 --> 00:08:18,956 that has its mosquito population, 136 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,168 or at least one species of its mosquito population, crash? 137 00:08:22,460 --> 00:08:25,296 Uh, we... we don't know the answer to that question. 138 00:08:25,713 --> 00:08:29,342 How much do we have to know before we jump off that cliff? 139 00:08:29,926 --> 00:08:32,512 In the end, this is on my shoulders. 140 00:08:33,846 --> 00:08:38,351 It was on me to decide to share this with the world, 141 00:08:38,434 --> 00:08:39,644 for good or for ill. 142 00:08:41,604 --> 00:08:45,191 Yes, there's abundant reason for caution and humility. 143 00:08:46,025 --> 00:08:48,027 But we also need to remember 144 00:08:48,110 --> 00:08:50,279 that the problems that we're trying to solve 145 00:08:50,363 --> 00:08:51,989 are real problems today. 146 00:08:52,990 --> 00:08:56,702 In the last three minutes, malaria has infected 1,000 people. 147 00:08:57,453 --> 00:08:59,413 And two of those are going to die. 148 00:09:07,171 --> 00:09:09,632 Leonce... Leonce? 149 00:09:10,633 --> 00:09:11,634 How are you? 150 00:09:13,010 --> 00:09:17,181 Where did she say it hurt this morning? 151 00:09:17,807 --> 00:09:20,560 - She was vomiting. - Mmm. 152 00:09:20,643 --> 00:09:22,436 - And she couldn't sleep. - Mmm. 153 00:09:28,568 --> 00:09:29,568 Your hand. 154 00:09:31,070 --> 00:09:34,282 I will come again later this afternoon to give her another treatment. 155 00:09:34,365 --> 00:09:35,408 Mm-hmm. 156 00:09:43,165 --> 00:09:46,043 How many months have you been pregnant? 157 00:09:46,127 --> 00:09:47,503 Almost three months. 158 00:09:47,587 --> 00:09:49,213 - Yeah? - Mm-hmm. 159 00:09:49,297 --> 00:09:50,840 That's it. 160 00:09:50,965 --> 00:09:51,965 Hmm? 161 00:09:53,175 --> 00:09:54,969 The results show you have malaria. 162 00:09:56,512 --> 00:09:58,472 So, how do people get malaria? 163 00:09:58,556 --> 00:09:59,599 Mm... 164 00:09:59,932 --> 00:10:00,932 Mmm... 165 00:10:03,894 --> 00:10:05,581 - Don't be shy. - Isn't it bad food? 166 00:10:05,605 --> 00:10:07,481 - Mmm? - Isn't it from bad food? 167 00:10:07,565 --> 00:10:10,192 It's mosquitoes that give malaria. 168 00:10:11,068 --> 00:10:13,738 Malaria is very dangerous for pregnant women. 169 00:10:13,821 --> 00:10:15,239 It attacks your pregnancy. 170 00:10:17,575 --> 00:10:20,077 Do you know what a mosquito net is? Huh? 171 00:10:20,161 --> 00:10:22,121 I used to sleep in a mosquito net, 172 00:10:22,204 --> 00:10:23,748 - Mm-hmm. - but one side was torn, 173 00:10:23,831 --> 00:10:25,708 and we took it down. 174 00:10:25,791 --> 00:10:27,543 We'll find a mosquito net for you. 175 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,630 Every day you must sleep in a mosquito net. 176 00:10:32,506 --> 00:10:33,506 Do you understand? 177 00:10:34,634 --> 00:10:38,137 I will prescribe some malaria medicines. You'll take them, you understand? 178 00:10:42,933 --> 00:10:44,769 God willing, you'll recover. 179 00:10:50,691 --> 00:10:54,111 In the village here, at minimum, 180 00:10:54,487 --> 00:10:57,698 people will contract malaria once a year. 181 00:11:01,327 --> 00:11:03,037 Children are especially at risk. 182 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,999 At least twice a year, they'll contract malaria. 183 00:11:11,671 --> 00:11:13,589 So, if I was to attack one disease, 184 00:11:13,673 --> 00:11:16,634 it's the first disease I would attack. 185 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,026 Give me the chalk. 186 00:11:40,741 --> 00:11:42,493 Do the exercise. 187 00:11:49,250 --> 00:11:53,963 As Africans, we are really living the huge burden of malaria, 188 00:11:54,463 --> 00:11:58,342 and this has been for centuries and centuries. 189 00:12:02,888 --> 00:12:04,014 I'm done. 190 00:12:04,098 --> 00:12:05,349 Give me five then. 191 00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:07,143 Very good. 192 00:12:07,518 --> 00:12:09,562 I lived it when I was a kid, 193 00:12:09,645 --> 00:12:11,647 I'm living it as a scientist today, 194 00:12:12,231 --> 00:12:14,024 and I'm living it as a father. 195 00:12:15,192 --> 00:12:18,654 I can still remember seeing myself laying down on the floor. 196 00:12:18,738 --> 00:12:21,782 I think I was probably around two or three years old, 197 00:12:21,866 --> 00:12:24,201 and it was really, really tough, sweating. 198 00:12:24,285 --> 00:12:26,579 And fortunately, really, for me, 199 00:12:26,662 --> 00:12:30,124 we had a very good doctor at that time in my village. 200 00:12:30,416 --> 00:12:32,126 If I would not have that, 201 00:12:32,209 --> 00:12:34,837 I'm really not sure I would have made it, you know, today. 202 00:12:37,882 --> 00:12:40,050 Étienne, dinner. 203 00:12:40,342 --> 00:12:41,343 Come and eat. 204 00:12:41,427 --> 00:12:43,804 All my brothers and sisters, 205 00:12:44,138 --> 00:12:46,265 they have all been through malaria. 206 00:12:47,057 --> 00:12:51,187 I don't even know a single person who was born here 207 00:12:51,270 --> 00:12:52,980 and has never experienced malaria. 208 00:12:53,063 --> 00:12:55,024 I just don't know any single person. 209 00:13:10,414 --> 00:13:13,542 These are mosquitoes that are locally collected 210 00:13:13,626 --> 00:13:14,794 here in Burkina Faso. 211 00:13:18,964 --> 00:13:21,967 This is the DNA of mosquito that has been amplified yesterday. 212 00:13:24,595 --> 00:13:25,721 From the reading, 213 00:13:25,805 --> 00:13:28,098 uh, this is the kind of picture that you will get. 214 00:13:28,182 --> 00:13:30,017 If you look at the genome of the mosquitoes 215 00:13:30,100 --> 00:13:31,352 and you look at the profile, 216 00:13:31,685 --> 00:13:32,978 you have the mutation, 217 00:13:33,062 --> 00:13:35,481 making that the insecticide cannot bind anymore. 218 00:13:36,357 --> 00:13:39,235 These mosquitoes is adapting to the changing environment. 219 00:13:39,568 --> 00:13:42,905 It has a kind of plasticity in its genome, 220 00:13:42,988 --> 00:13:46,408 making it really very difficult for insecticide to be efficient. 221 00:13:47,576 --> 00:13:49,995 Unfortunately, the resistance just jumped. 222 00:13:53,123 --> 00:13:57,294 Conventional tools have really reached their protective limit. 223 00:13:59,463 --> 00:14:02,800 If we don't have new tools, just forget it. 224 00:14:03,175 --> 00:14:05,761 We will not be able to eliminate malaria. 225 00:14:21,318 --> 00:14:24,530 This is the painting that shows the Roman Campagna 226 00:14:24,613 --> 00:14:28,784 in, uh, probably in 1840, 1845. 227 00:14:32,830 --> 00:14:35,666 But, as you can see, there is no houses there. 228 00:14:36,834 --> 00:14:38,794 Because people didn't want to live there. 229 00:14:40,838 --> 00:14:42,131 It was all swamps. 230 00:14:43,799 --> 00:14:47,511 Malaria affected Italy for... for centuries. 231 00:14:48,053 --> 00:14:50,806 And they didn't even know the cause of the disease. 232 00:14:51,765 --> 00:14:53,326 Ever since Grassi, in Italy, 233 00:14:53,350 --> 00:14:56,103 and Ross, in India, proved in 1898 234 00:14:56,186 --> 00:14:58,355 that certain mosquitoes carried malaria, 235 00:14:59,023 --> 00:15:02,735 mosquitoes have been under attack in most of the regions of the world. 236 00:15:03,277 --> 00:15:06,655 There is no malaria without mosquito. 237 00:15:06,739 --> 00:15:08,115 It's very simple. 238 00:15:11,243 --> 00:15:15,122 We have eliminated malaria from Europe thanks to the insecticides. 239 00:15:15,581 --> 00:15:19,043 Eradication using the insecticide DDT 240 00:15:19,126 --> 00:15:21,837 All water surfaces were sprayed to kill larvae. 241 00:15:22,838 --> 00:15:25,090 However, you need to sustain this effort 242 00:15:25,174 --> 00:15:27,468 over a long, long period of time. 243 00:15:27,551 --> 00:15:31,180 You need a lot of, uh, support. You need a lot of money. 244 00:15:31,263 --> 00:15:33,641 You need political stability. 245 00:15:33,724 --> 00:15:35,392 It's a bit sad to say, 246 00:15:35,476 --> 00:15:39,438 but you need a technology that overcomes human nature. 247 00:15:43,943 --> 00:15:46,528 Now, in the lab, we have gene-drive mosquitoes 248 00:15:46,612 --> 00:15:48,405 that are very, very promising. 249 00:15:54,870 --> 00:15:58,540 Mosquitoes are the deadliest animal on the planet, 250 00:15:58,624 --> 00:16:01,961 responsible for millions of deaths every year. 251 00:16:02,044 --> 00:16:03,295 Not only malaria, 252 00:16:03,379 --> 00:16:05,589 there are many, many diseases transmitted by mosquitoes. 253 00:16:06,799 --> 00:16:08,842 Just, yeah, look at them, they are... 254 00:16:09,677 --> 00:16:11,345 look like from a different world. 255 00:16:11,428 --> 00:16:12,596 They look a bit aliens. 256 00:16:13,347 --> 00:16:16,809 But they are very... terrestrial. 257 00:16:23,607 --> 00:16:27,695 We inject CRISPR that we engineered in the lab 258 00:16:28,278 --> 00:16:29,863 in a specific location in the embryo 259 00:16:30,614 --> 00:16:34,118 that will develop into the sexual organs of the mosquito. 260 00:16:37,579 --> 00:16:39,748 Once you get your first transgenic mosquito, 261 00:16:39,832 --> 00:16:41,625 it's kind of amazing. 262 00:16:44,003 --> 00:16:47,506 This is the brain, the optical nerve, and... and the eyes. 263 00:16:48,007 --> 00:16:49,466 The gene drive will be fluorescent, 264 00:16:49,717 --> 00:16:53,137 and the non-gene drive will be without the fluorescence. 265 00:16:54,847 --> 00:16:58,642 You can clearly see which one have been modified 266 00:16:58,726 --> 00:16:59,977 and which ones are not. 267 00:17:05,983 --> 00:17:08,861 Gene drive can generate mosquitoes that produce only males, 268 00:17:09,486 --> 00:17:11,447 and this is very important for two reasons. 269 00:17:11,530 --> 00:17:15,284 One is that males don't bite, and they don't transmit a disease. 270 00:17:15,367 --> 00:17:18,203 And the second one, you will have more and more males 271 00:17:18,287 --> 00:17:19,287 and less and less females 272 00:17:19,329 --> 00:17:21,749 to the point that the population will crash. 273 00:17:26,378 --> 00:17:28,922 At the beginning, we looked at this technology 274 00:17:29,006 --> 00:17:31,008 with a... with a healthy skepticism. 275 00:17:31,967 --> 00:17:34,720 Personally, I think a scientist has to be skeptical. 276 00:17:36,513 --> 00:17:41,101 We can mimic environmental condition in the tropics. 277 00:17:41,685 --> 00:17:45,773 Let's say a particular location in Burkina Faso, in Africa, or Angola. 278 00:17:46,857 --> 00:17:52,529 We can reproduce, very, very precisely, temperature, humidity, light cycle. 279 00:17:52,613 --> 00:17:57,451 This allow us to predict what will happen when these mosquito are released. 280 00:17:58,952 --> 00:18:02,915 Now, I must say, I'm, uh... I'm convinced that the technology works. 281 00:18:08,670 --> 00:18:11,757 I'm not dead yet, but I also don't know if it's worked yet. 282 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:13,675 So, the title of this is 283 00:18:13,759 --> 00:18:18,472 "Experimental Data Revealing for the N6 HIV Genetic Plasma Therapy." 284 00:18:20,349 --> 00:18:21,642 All right, this is up. 285 00:18:22,559 --> 00:18:24,353 I got all the data. 286 00:18:25,771 --> 00:18:26,772 Um... 287 00:18:35,447 --> 00:18:37,699 Uh... 288 00:18:37,825 --> 00:18:40,577 Yeah, my viral load went up. So, all right. 289 00:18:40,661 --> 00:18:43,122 Yeah, this was not what we were hoping for, right? 290 00:18:44,164 --> 00:18:45,164 But... 291 00:18:45,541 --> 00:18:49,670 it's very rare that a therapy that's new works the first time. 292 00:18:49,753 --> 00:18:52,131 I'm pretty sure we just used too small of a dose. 293 00:18:52,214 --> 00:18:54,007 We did a very, very small dose. 294 00:18:54,091 --> 00:18:58,720 I mean, this was 1/100th of what we had available in December. 295 00:18:58,804 --> 00:19:00,430 We all wanted to be absolutely careful 296 00:19:00,514 --> 00:19:02,516 to ensure that the minimal effective dose... 297 00:19:02,599 --> 00:19:04,199 - Mm-hmm. - You know. 298 00:19:04,476 --> 00:19:06,311 The future doses, um... 299 00:19:07,604 --> 00:19:10,649 will have about 50 to 100 times, I believe... 300 00:19:10,732 --> 00:19:12,359 We're developing something 301 00:19:12,442 --> 00:19:15,863 that we believe will be both, uh, more potent, but also... 302 00:19:16,530 --> 00:19:18,490 it will last longer within the human body. 303 00:19:18,824 --> 00:19:21,869 Um, but I am glad that with the general... Yeah, the proof of concept... 304 00:19:21,952 --> 00:19:23,704 We didn't... We didn't kill anybody. 305 00:19:27,541 --> 00:19:30,169 What Tristan experimented with in phase one... 306 00:19:30,711 --> 00:19:36,258 is approximately 250 to 500 times lower in potency 307 00:19:36,341 --> 00:19:39,678 than what he will experiment with next Saturday. 308 00:19:44,183 --> 00:19:46,143 We've got N6 going right now, 309 00:19:46,226 --> 00:19:48,061 the actual production run. 310 00:19:48,145 --> 00:19:51,273 Should be ready to be purified in the next couple days. 311 00:19:52,149 --> 00:19:53,859 HIV is a very... 312 00:19:54,234 --> 00:19:58,697 sneaky, and pernicious, and quickly evolving, uh, virus. 313 00:19:58,780 --> 00:20:03,327 That said, we think we can respond back to HIV. 314 00:20:03,660 --> 00:20:04,995 It... It's a living entity. 315 00:20:05,078 --> 00:20:07,122 It's gonna throw us some more curveballs 316 00:20:07,206 --> 00:20:09,041 as it always has in the past, 317 00:20:09,458 --> 00:20:13,795 um, but the fight's not over just because we lost the first round. 318 00:20:13,879 --> 00:20:15,422 You know, we're not giving up. 319 00:20:15,505 --> 00:20:18,926 If everything goes according to plan, and it will, 320 00:20:19,009 --> 00:20:21,220 then we will have all the data that we need 321 00:20:21,303 --> 00:20:23,347 to show that we've developed treatments. 322 00:20:23,722 --> 00:20:27,267 Then we're moving forward at a lightning pace. 323 00:20:29,811 --> 00:20:32,165 You're listening to Radiolab. 324 00:20:32,189 --> 00:20:33,315 This is Radiolab. 325 00:20:33,398 --> 00:20:36,443 Kevin Esvelt, he is a scientist who's talking to our producers... 326 00:20:36,526 --> 00:20:41,114 ...about a gene-editing technology that... that can reshape life, actually. 327 00:20:41,990 --> 00:20:42,824 I'm Kevin Esvelt. 328 00:20:42,908 --> 00:20:44,552 - Esvelt. - He's very svelte. 329 00:20:44,576 --> 00:20:46,429 I think of myself as an evolutionary engineer. 330 00:20:46,453 --> 00:20:48,163 And Kevin has his idea, 331 00:20:48,247 --> 00:20:51,625 which is to use CRISPR to create something called... 332 00:20:51,708 --> 00:20:52,793 Gene drive. 333 00:20:52,876 --> 00:20:54,044 Gene drive. 334 00:20:54,127 --> 00:20:57,172 Let's say that you want to change a gene inside the mosquitoes. 335 00:20:57,256 --> 00:20:59,025 - That'd be great. - A great thing, 336 00:20:59,049 --> 00:21:00,676 'cause malaria is a bad thing. 337 00:21:00,759 --> 00:21:05,055 With gene drive, that gene does the work on its own, on autopilot. 338 00:21:05,138 --> 00:21:07,492 You're putting, like, a spare scissors or something? 339 00:21:07,516 --> 00:21:09,716 And then that baby passes the scissors to the next baby, 340 00:21:09,768 --> 00:21:10,954 - snip, snip, snip... - Yup. 341 00:21:10,978 --> 00:21:12,578 And it is like a chain reaction? 342 00:21:12,646 --> 00:21:13,855 - Yeah. - Dude. 343 00:21:13,939 --> 00:21:15,941 Things are moving very fast. 344 00:21:16,024 --> 00:21:17,693 Uh, what kinds of things? 345 00:21:17,776 --> 00:21:22,781 So, we might be able to use gene drive to remove rats in New Zealand. 346 00:21:22,864 --> 00:21:25,075 Wait, what? 347 00:21:31,290 --> 00:21:33,208 When I first heard of gene drive, 348 00:21:33,292 --> 00:21:35,460 it was actually a bit worrying, 349 00:21:35,544 --> 00:21:39,006 'cause it's... ...it's at a scale of molecular editing 350 00:21:39,089 --> 00:21:40,465 that we haven't even seen before. 351 00:21:42,259 --> 00:21:45,470 But the threat we're facing is so incredibly aggressive. 352 00:21:45,554 --> 00:21:47,198 It's the stuff of nightmares. 353 00:21:47,222 --> 00:21:49,725 New Zealand's preparing for a rat population explosion 354 00:21:49,808 --> 00:21:51,643 of biblical proportions. 355 00:21:51,727 --> 00:21:54,271 Warm weather has created ideal breeding conditions 356 00:21:54,354 --> 00:21:55,856 for forest predators. 357 00:21:55,939 --> 00:21:59,484 Predators like this kill 25 million native birds a year, 358 00:21:59,568 --> 00:22:02,738 and these vulnerable species are at even greater threat 359 00:22:02,821 --> 00:22:05,365 because the vermin population is about to explode. 360 00:22:06,575 --> 00:22:09,745 The US military is enlisting six million dollars in research 361 00:22:09,828 --> 00:22:12,706 into gene technology to control the spread of rats. 362 00:22:13,081 --> 00:22:15,459 Researchers want to use our islands for the study, 363 00:22:15,542 --> 00:22:18,462 which would see rat DNA edited to control breeding. 364 00:22:19,963 --> 00:22:21,882 New Zealand was one of the last places 365 00:22:21,965 --> 00:22:23,800 in the world colonized by people. 366 00:22:30,849 --> 00:22:32,289 Since humans have arrived, 367 00:22:32,351 --> 00:22:35,771 nearly half of New Zealand land bird species have gone extinct. 368 00:22:37,564 --> 00:22:39,566 Birds like this were the rulers of the land. 369 00:22:39,649 --> 00:22:43,904 They didn't have any, uh, need to learn how to evade furry mammals. 370 00:22:46,073 --> 00:22:48,867 When humans brought these rats and other predators, 371 00:22:48,950 --> 00:22:50,790 they just made a meal out of all of these birds 372 00:22:50,827 --> 00:22:52,329 who had no evolutionary adaptation. 373 00:22:54,331 --> 00:22:57,667 The choice is either to have birds like this or to have rats like this. 374 00:22:57,751 --> 00:22:59,551 It's one or the other. There's no equilibrium. 375 00:23:01,254 --> 00:23:05,467 If we make active choices, we can steer the world 376 00:23:05,550 --> 00:23:08,095 in a particular direction that we might want it to go in. 377 00:23:08,178 --> 00:23:11,598 And otherwise, we just end up with a... a world overrun by rats. 378 00:23:24,694 --> 00:23:27,364 We are here today to ask for your guidance 379 00:23:27,447 --> 00:23:31,243 in whether you believe it is useful to even consider 380 00:23:31,326 --> 00:23:33,495 these potential methods 381 00:23:34,121 --> 00:23:36,415 to protect the native species' ecosystems 382 00:23:36,498 --> 00:23:40,293 by painlessly removing these invasive predators. 383 00:23:40,377 --> 00:23:43,964 And the overall, this kind of phenomenon is called gene drive. 384 00:23:44,923 --> 00:23:48,385 The goal of this would be to remove all of the rats. 385 00:23:49,428 --> 00:23:53,181 So, yes, it involves... engineering the rats, 386 00:23:53,265 --> 00:23:54,992 but the goal is to have all the rats go away, 387 00:23:55,016 --> 00:23:56,977 and so there would be no engineered genes left, 388 00:23:57,060 --> 00:23:59,104 - if this is successful. - Um... 389 00:23:59,187 --> 00:24:02,941 You remove a rat from the ecosystem, what takes its place? 390 00:24:03,024 --> 00:24:06,445 You're making room for something else, and then here we go again, 391 00:24:06,528 --> 00:24:09,573 the humans saying, "Well, we'll play God today, 392 00:24:10,198 --> 00:24:11,575 and bugger the consequences." 393 00:24:12,409 --> 00:24:14,578 We have enough problems in the world. 394 00:24:14,661 --> 00:24:15,954 It's frightening 395 00:24:16,037 --> 00:24:18,582 what you can do to alter, um, 396 00:24:18,874 --> 00:24:19,958 God's creation. 397 00:24:20,041 --> 00:24:22,335 You cannot question, 398 00:24:22,419 --> 00:24:24,087 compromise, with spirit. 399 00:24:25,213 --> 00:24:27,883 I cannot say how that will affect the spirit of the animal. 400 00:24:27,966 --> 00:24:30,635 I cannot say how will it affect the spirit of the environment, 401 00:24:30,719 --> 00:24:32,804 but evolution is a game of numbers. 402 00:24:34,014 --> 00:24:36,099 And that is something that we can measure. 403 00:24:36,183 --> 00:24:39,352 Every day that we don't do anything, 404 00:24:39,436 --> 00:24:44,483 there is one indigenous bird going by the wayside. 405 00:24:45,567 --> 00:24:50,155 We can't just sit here and say, "Oh no, we're not gonna try that." 406 00:24:50,238 --> 00:24:53,950 We've been using poison for the last 50, 60 years. 407 00:24:54,034 --> 00:24:55,911 - And it's not working. - No, it's not. 408 00:24:55,994 --> 00:24:58,639 - Nothing we're doing is working. - So let's be honest about that 409 00:24:58,663 --> 00:25:02,542 and say, "Look, we're gonna be open to look at other ways." 410 00:25:02,626 --> 00:25:03,710 Yes. 411 00:25:03,793 --> 00:25:07,464 Ecologically, in terms of sustainably, the world is broken. 412 00:25:07,547 --> 00:25:08,965 We have broken it. 413 00:25:09,257 --> 00:25:10,257 Is it... 414 00:25:11,259 --> 00:25:13,762 Is it our place to try to fix it? 415 00:25:13,845 --> 00:25:15,430 God made an order. 416 00:25:15,514 --> 00:25:16,514 And Noah... 417 00:25:17,140 --> 00:25:19,476 he did have two rats on that ark. 418 00:25:20,060 --> 00:25:24,064 We have no right to try and eradicate one of those species 419 00:25:25,106 --> 00:25:27,442 unless we want to pay a severe price. 420 00:25:28,693 --> 00:25:31,363 I speak for me. I wouldn't dare try to do that. 421 00:25:41,164 --> 00:25:43,792 The challenge is that explaining how things are 422 00:25:44,459 --> 00:25:48,213 to people, according to science, has no effect on their actual opinions... 423 00:25:48,964 --> 00:25:52,842 because their opinions about the world are not shaped by their grasp of facts. 424 00:25:53,385 --> 00:25:55,095 They're shaped by their values. 425 00:25:56,304 --> 00:25:59,140 If you're really playing God, you don't care what other people think. 426 00:26:01,059 --> 00:26:02,978 So, we're gonna do just the opposite. 427 00:26:03,645 --> 00:26:07,440 We want to learn all of those reasons why they think it is a terrible idea. 428 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:16,658 ♪ Ah, ya, ya, ya... ♪ 429 00:26:16,741 --> 00:26:20,245 ...the government planning to get rid of all the rats in New Zealand. 430 00:26:20,912 --> 00:26:23,331 In fact, the prime minister says, all going well, 431 00:26:23,415 --> 00:26:26,084 there will be no rats, stoats, or possums 432 00:26:26,167 --> 00:26:28,753 anywhere in New Zealand by 2050. 433 00:26:28,878 --> 00:26:33,133 ♪ Bombs to set the world on fire ♪ 434 00:26:33,842 --> 00:26:36,303 ♪ Suffering in the land... ♪ 435 00:26:37,429 --> 00:26:40,473 Going back to the '70s with that number, "Sufferin' in the Land." 436 00:26:40,557 --> 00:26:43,518 We've got a special guest in the studio, Bryce Smith. 437 00:26:43,602 --> 00:26:47,522 Uh, we're talking about a big topic. It's genetic engineering. 438 00:26:47,606 --> 00:26:51,776 The government want to get rid of all pests by 2050 439 00:26:52,277 --> 00:26:54,946 and may be using what they call a "gene drive." 440 00:26:55,030 --> 00:26:56,698 I mean, what are your thoughts on that? 441 00:26:57,032 --> 00:26:59,618 I personally don't think we should be doing that. 442 00:26:59,701 --> 00:27:04,914 This type of technology has the ability to change our way of life significantly, 443 00:27:05,332 --> 00:27:09,336 and there are a lot of, um... issues around it, 444 00:27:09,419 --> 00:27:10,855 for us as... ...people of the land, 445 00:27:10,879 --> 00:27:12,732 on how we're going to deal with it. 446 00:27:12,756 --> 00:27:15,675 And I suppose, the thing about this, I mean, where's it going to end? 447 00:27:15,759 --> 00:27:19,262 I mean, we might talk about this as a way of getting rid of the pests, 448 00:27:19,346 --> 00:27:22,891 but I mean, the long-term ramifications of this type of thing. 449 00:27:22,974 --> 00:27:25,477 We need to consider, if they can do that to that, 450 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,313 then the same tool can be used on other animals. 451 00:27:28,396 --> 00:27:33,151 At the moment, they've got tools there to create, um, sterile possums. 452 00:27:33,234 --> 00:27:37,739 What other tools are gonna be needed to create sterile humans? 453 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,202 You know, our elders never got excited about technology 454 00:27:42,285 --> 00:27:44,287 manipulating our Maori world. 455 00:27:57,050 --> 00:27:58,301 There's one here for you. 456 00:28:00,345 --> 00:28:01,763 There's a couple more here. 457 00:28:03,056 --> 00:28:04,766 Can I have that knife? 458 00:28:06,810 --> 00:28:07,810 Yep. 459 00:28:08,728 --> 00:28:09,728 Okay. 460 00:28:11,147 --> 00:28:14,150 This is a native breed of taro. 461 00:28:14,651 --> 00:28:18,071 You can just slice them up and cook them as they are like a potato. 462 00:28:18,488 --> 00:28:21,241 Some of the old people use it to make bread. You can grate them. 463 00:28:21,616 --> 00:28:25,495 And this particular patch here has been here 464 00:28:25,578 --> 00:28:28,873 for about six or seven generations, from what we know of. 465 00:28:33,211 --> 00:28:36,256 This particular plant needs a moist piece of land. 466 00:28:36,339 --> 00:28:37,924 You can look at the soil here. 467 00:28:38,007 --> 00:28:40,927 It's years and years of, um, of black mud and... 468 00:28:41,010 --> 00:28:44,889 ...if you smell it, it's, uh... may not be appealing to smell, 469 00:28:44,973 --> 00:28:47,142 but it needs to have that smell because in that... 470 00:28:47,225 --> 00:28:48,852 in that smell is the food. 471 00:28:50,645 --> 00:28:55,191 My father was a... a great supporter of our natural whakapapa. 472 00:28:56,735 --> 00:28:58,111 Another nice little one. 473 00:28:58,236 --> 00:29:01,156 Um, whakapapa isn't an easy word to understand. 474 00:29:01,865 --> 00:29:04,617 It's a relationship that sustains one another. 475 00:29:04,909 --> 00:29:08,329 Two parties or three parties in this particular environment here, 476 00:29:08,413 --> 00:29:11,374 you're gonna be at 18 different parties working together. 477 00:29:11,458 --> 00:29:14,961 One is creating an environment for the other one to live happily. 478 00:29:17,756 --> 00:29:19,924 One of the critical points is to be sure 479 00:29:20,008 --> 00:29:22,510 that you know exactly what's going to happen 480 00:29:22,594 --> 00:29:23,845 when you make changes. 481 00:29:25,138 --> 00:29:28,558 And be very, very careful when you don't have all the information. 482 00:29:48,244 --> 00:29:50,538 When we talk about conserving these birds, 483 00:29:50,622 --> 00:29:52,099 we're not just talking about it for their charisma 484 00:29:52,123 --> 00:29:53,603 or for the aesthetic value they have. 485 00:29:54,459 --> 00:29:56,795 These are important parts of the ecosystem. 486 00:29:56,878 --> 00:29:58,379 They pollinate plants, 487 00:29:58,463 --> 00:30:00,799 they regulate invertebrate communities. 488 00:30:00,882 --> 00:30:03,218 If we have too many of these species go extinct, 489 00:30:03,301 --> 00:30:05,887 it could just unravel the ecosystem. 490 00:30:07,555 --> 00:30:10,934 Just, it's... it's a duty, it's a job to have to remove these rats 491 00:30:11,017 --> 00:30:12,519 in the entirety of the country. 492 00:30:19,359 --> 00:30:22,153 So we're looking at a map here, at the Eastern Bay of Islands. 493 00:30:22,737 --> 00:30:26,908 It's a collection of islands here that they eradicated rats from in 2009 494 00:30:26,991 --> 00:30:29,786 with toxins and aerial rat poison. 495 00:30:29,869 --> 00:30:33,122 But there's a constant pressure of rats swimming out to the island group. 496 00:30:34,624 --> 00:30:37,460 Got four rats on the loose at the moment. 497 00:30:37,544 --> 00:30:40,964 We're just not sure where these rats are. They could be running anywhere. 498 00:30:41,464 --> 00:30:45,218 So it's all hands on deck trying to get hold of these rats 499 00:30:45,301 --> 00:30:48,221 using detection dogs and tracking devices and traps. 500 00:30:49,514 --> 00:30:51,474 You said you've got four on the run at the moment? 501 00:30:51,558 --> 00:30:53,160 Four animals on the loose at the moment 502 00:30:53,184 --> 00:30:55,019 across four separate islands. 503 00:30:55,103 --> 00:30:57,772 So they come swimming, and they come on people's boats. 504 00:30:58,565 --> 00:31:00,650 You really only have to miss one. 505 00:31:00,733 --> 00:31:02,235 If you miss a pregnant female, 506 00:31:02,318 --> 00:31:04,988 you go from one rat to, "Holy crap, we're in trouble." 507 00:31:11,411 --> 00:31:12,972 Can see their little, um, footprints there 508 00:31:12,996 --> 00:31:15,582 and also where they've been dragging their tail along. 509 00:31:18,042 --> 00:31:21,379 When you've got a species that can breed that quickly, 510 00:31:21,462 --> 00:31:24,090 one rat can devastate our environment. 511 00:31:25,341 --> 00:31:27,343 It's an incredible challenge. 512 00:31:27,844 --> 00:31:30,346 The effort that it takes to catch one rat 513 00:31:30,430 --> 00:31:33,099 is just not sustainable over the long term. 514 00:31:34,058 --> 00:31:35,226 So if we're serious 515 00:31:35,310 --> 00:31:38,563 of actually making the whole of New Zealand pest-free, 516 00:31:38,897 --> 00:31:40,249 we've gotta come up with new stuff. 517 00:31:40,273 --> 00:31:42,193 It's the 21st century. We've put men on the moon. 518 00:31:42,233 --> 00:31:43,401 Surely we can manage this. 519 00:31:49,782 --> 00:31:51,502 It sucks to have to kill something 520 00:31:51,534 --> 00:31:52,952 to save something else, 521 00:31:53,036 --> 00:31:56,998 but we're well past the situation where we can leave nature to be. 522 00:31:57,540 --> 00:32:00,585 The impact of humans is well beyond that where you can say, 523 00:32:00,668 --> 00:32:03,546 "Let's just lock it away in preservation in a national park," 524 00:32:03,922 --> 00:32:05,632 and expect it to be protected. 525 00:32:07,050 --> 00:32:10,386 Invasive species are reaching the furthest corner of the planet. 526 00:32:11,846 --> 00:32:14,682 That's why I support eradication so much, even though in one instance, 527 00:32:14,766 --> 00:32:17,560 it's killing everything at once, which sounds horrific. 528 00:32:17,644 --> 00:32:20,063 It's done. And after it's done, the killing stops. 529 00:32:21,648 --> 00:32:24,233 And the birds come back, and the life comes back. 530 00:32:26,736 --> 00:32:27,904 Come on, ladies. 531 00:32:51,970 --> 00:32:54,514 - Great. That's a good photo. Yeah. - Real good. 532 00:33:02,271 --> 00:33:03,564 Here, over here, look. 533 00:33:19,247 --> 00:33:21,374 It's always been my favorite place to come, 534 00:33:21,457 --> 00:33:23,543 and you just feel at rest... 535 00:33:24,168 --> 00:33:26,963 when you come up here and just watch over the harbor. 536 00:33:27,505 --> 00:33:31,551 And so, that's what I really like about coming here. 537 00:33:36,556 --> 00:33:39,809 I think of my ancestors, and... 538 00:33:40,643 --> 00:33:42,645 this is what they left behind. 539 00:33:42,729 --> 00:33:45,898 They protected it so that it could be left behind like this. 540 00:33:47,984 --> 00:33:52,030 All my role is today is to continue doing what they did. 541 00:33:54,741 --> 00:33:57,618 Do scientists really believe they can control the environment? 542 00:33:57,702 --> 00:34:00,121 Do they really believe they can control this? 543 00:34:00,204 --> 00:34:04,000 Do they really believe that they can manage this? 544 00:34:14,886 --> 00:34:17,972 Today, we have some incredible talks, debates, 545 00:34:18,056 --> 00:34:19,976 and a three-day celebration of human enhancement, 546 00:34:20,058 --> 00:34:21,601 transhumanism, and biohacking. 547 00:34:24,437 --> 00:34:25,563 Oh, wow. 548 00:34:27,732 --> 00:34:30,234 Oh my God. I have to take a video. I have to take a video. 549 00:34:30,318 --> 00:34:34,280 Hello, I'm Aaron Traywick. We represent Ascendance Biomedical. 550 00:34:34,363 --> 00:34:37,658 We're a small group of people scattered around the world with a lot of talent, 551 00:34:37,742 --> 00:34:40,286 developing gene therapy applications. 552 00:34:40,369 --> 00:34:42,789 You have likely heard of us from, um... 553 00:34:43,206 --> 00:34:48,544 our work in live testing the first gene-therapy cure for HIV. 554 00:34:48,628 --> 00:34:51,297 It's really interesting, but when we think about HIV, 555 00:34:51,380 --> 00:34:54,133 we think also something similar to what happens with flu. 556 00:34:54,217 --> 00:34:57,553 Each year it's gonna mutate, and HIV mutates really fast. 557 00:34:57,637 --> 00:34:58,554 Of course. 558 00:34:58,638 --> 00:35:00,640 So, the, uh, the solution there 559 00:35:00,723 --> 00:35:04,018 is to study the presence of the N6 antibody in the body, 560 00:35:04,102 --> 00:35:06,771 and ensure that it is staying at peak concentrations. 561 00:35:06,854 --> 00:35:09,148 The only way to do that is with blood samples, 562 00:35:09,232 --> 00:35:12,902 and that will be done on a weekly, ongoing basis for the next six months 563 00:35:12,985 --> 00:35:15,029 with Tristan Roberts, following phase two. 564 00:35:15,863 --> 00:35:21,244 And we'll make sure that raw human data is available as quickly as possible. 565 00:35:23,871 --> 00:35:25,081 Richter, guard! 566 00:35:26,541 --> 00:35:28,709 Good boy! 567 00:35:30,461 --> 00:35:31,504 Good boy! 568 00:35:31,587 --> 00:35:33,005 Walk with the line? 569 00:35:34,465 --> 00:35:36,634 Swing. Do it again. 570 00:35:37,426 --> 00:35:38,344 There we go. 571 00:35:38,427 --> 00:35:40,555 When you're fighting a living organism, 572 00:35:40,638 --> 00:35:42,849 uh, you've gotta... you've gotta factor in evolution. 573 00:35:42,932 --> 00:35:45,252 You've gotta factor in the fact that it's gonna fight back. 574 00:35:47,061 --> 00:35:50,064 In a case like Tristan's, the key thing to rememberis that his... 575 00:35:50,148 --> 00:35:52,066 his infection is alive. 576 00:35:52,567 --> 00:35:55,653 You know, it's a living, evolving organism inside his body. 577 00:35:55,736 --> 00:36:00,074 So, if you... if you hit it with something that will wipe it out, 578 00:36:00,158 --> 00:36:01,701 then you've... you've stopped it. 579 00:36:01,784 --> 00:36:04,954 But if you hit it with something that just challenges it, 580 00:36:05,037 --> 00:36:06,038 it'll adapt. 581 00:36:06,122 --> 00:36:08,642 And you challenge it a little more and challenge it a little more, 582 00:36:08,666 --> 00:36:11,169 and you keep sort of piecemealing your way towards a cure. 583 00:36:11,252 --> 00:36:14,463 You may get lots of useful information, but the cost may be 584 00:36:14,547 --> 00:36:18,801 that when you finally find a... a functional cure for HIV, 585 00:36:18,885 --> 00:36:20,761 Tristan's not a candidate for it anymore. 586 00:36:23,139 --> 00:36:25,683 You know, real biology takes time and effort. 587 00:36:26,684 --> 00:36:29,312 Aaron's problem is he wants it to be now, 588 00:36:30,146 --> 00:36:31,981 regardless of whether it's finished. 589 00:36:35,526 --> 00:36:37,526 All right, so, you're of the opinion that 590 00:36:37,570 --> 00:36:39,947 there's a good chance of a resistance developing. 591 00:36:40,281 --> 00:36:41,282 Um... 592 00:36:41,657 --> 00:36:43,075 There's risk every time. 593 00:36:43,159 --> 00:36:44,368 So, did... 594 00:36:44,452 --> 00:36:47,747 Was it your version of the N6 that was sent to the lab? 595 00:36:48,247 --> 00:36:49,540 The first version, yes. 596 00:36:49,624 --> 00:36:50,625 Okay. 597 00:36:50,708 --> 00:36:52,543 But I wanted to talk to you a little bit. 598 00:36:52,627 --> 00:36:55,338 Who's, like, adding transfection reagents 599 00:36:55,421 --> 00:36:57,798 and measuring, and all that stuff, and doing all that? 600 00:36:58,382 --> 00:37:00,426 I... I don't know, actually. 601 00:37:00,509 --> 00:37:05,431 Okay, so, somebody needs to... measure it, and do the math, 602 00:37:05,514 --> 00:37:08,434 and get it at the right concentrations. 603 00:37:08,517 --> 00:37:10,186 At the wrong concentrations, 604 00:37:10,269 --> 00:37:12,897 either it won't transfect, or it'll be cytotoxic. 605 00:37:13,356 --> 00:37:15,149 That is... concerning. 606 00:37:15,233 --> 00:37:18,236 It's like, I wanna help you do what you wanna do. 607 00:37:18,319 --> 00:37:19,445 - Yeah. - Um... 608 00:37:19,528 --> 00:37:22,490 But you've gotta be really, really careful with something like that. 609 00:37:22,573 --> 00:37:24,992 There's no reason to push this timetable. 610 00:37:25,076 --> 00:37:26,076 Mmm. 611 00:37:26,244 --> 00:37:30,122 From... From where I'm looking at it, it's your experiment, right? 612 00:37:30,873 --> 00:37:35,878 So, Ascendance has to accept that... that one of two things is true: 613 00:37:36,462 --> 00:37:37,505 Either... 614 00:37:38,214 --> 00:37:41,842 you're Tristan doing the experiment, in charge of what you're doing, 615 00:37:41,926 --> 00:37:44,095 because this is a self-experiment 616 00:37:44,178 --> 00:37:46,389 and Ascendance is just trying to facilitate you, 617 00:37:47,014 --> 00:37:50,434 or you're their human test subject, and that's deception. 618 00:38:02,029 --> 00:38:05,283 Genetic modification is a new topic for a lot of people... 619 00:38:06,492 --> 00:38:09,537 so if you're doing this kind of work, you have to engage with the community. 620 00:38:09,620 --> 00:38:12,164 We cannot just go there to the village and then start working. 621 00:38:12,248 --> 00:38:16,711 We have to explain what we are doing so that the community can understand, 622 00:38:16,794 --> 00:38:18,963 and so this is really a very big challenge. 623 00:38:37,982 --> 00:38:40,568 Hello. 624 00:38:40,651 --> 00:38:42,069 Hello, hello. 625 00:38:46,198 --> 00:38:50,077 Please clap your hands for the people of Target Malaria project. 626 00:38:50,161 --> 00:38:52,288 They are working on mosquitoes. 627 00:38:52,371 --> 00:38:55,166 Working on mosquitoes? How is that possible? 628 00:38:57,126 --> 00:39:00,212 Their work is simple. They catch mosquitoes. 629 00:39:00,296 --> 00:39:03,466 After they catch the mosquitoes, where do they take them? 630 00:39:03,549 --> 00:39:04,800 They call it a laboratory. 631 00:39:04,884 --> 00:39:06,761 Ah, laboratory. 632 00:39:09,263 --> 00:39:11,241 The technologies are quite complex, 633 00:39:11,265 --> 00:39:13,684 so it's not easy for everybody to understand 634 00:39:13,768 --> 00:39:16,103 the specific detail of what you're doing. 635 00:39:16,896 --> 00:39:19,231 We are a kind of small country, 636 00:39:19,315 --> 00:39:22,151 but we have about 60 dialect. 637 00:39:24,904 --> 00:39:27,740 Some of these scientific word is not easy. 638 00:39:28,199 --> 00:39:29,867 Isn't it malaria? 639 00:39:30,534 --> 00:39:32,912 Can you tell us what you see in the picture? 640 00:39:34,455 --> 00:39:35,956 - Mosquitoes. - Mosquitoes. 641 00:39:36,415 --> 00:39:38,518 Not to mention if you want to translate it 642 00:39:38,542 --> 00:39:40,002 from French to the local language. 643 00:39:40,086 --> 00:39:42,006 If you look at the picture, 644 00:39:42,046 --> 00:39:43,326 the female's mouth is stretched. 645 00:39:43,381 --> 00:39:45,466 It looks like a needle. 646 00:39:45,549 --> 00:39:49,970 Yesterday morning they told me that my friend's son died from malaria. 647 00:39:50,054 --> 00:39:54,225 Today, it's my own sister who's died from malaria. 648 00:39:54,308 --> 00:39:57,520 Every day and night, mosquitoes are causing damage. 649 00:39:58,145 --> 00:40:00,815 If we don't wake up, things will get worse! 650 00:40:00,898 --> 00:40:02,817 We can't let the mosquitoes keep killing us. 651 00:40:10,116 --> 00:40:14,245 I have my rifle at home. I'll kill all the mosquitoes. 652 00:40:14,328 --> 00:40:17,039 I'm ready, let's go! I'll kill them all! 653 00:40:26,674 --> 00:40:28,551 This is Anopheles gambiae, 654 00:40:28,634 --> 00:40:30,761 the species that transmit the disease malaria. 655 00:40:31,470 --> 00:40:34,265 You can see some of these mosquitoes are already blood fed. 656 00:40:34,348 --> 00:40:36,267 This means that they have taken the blood meal, 657 00:40:36,851 --> 00:40:39,228 so they can fly around and transmit the disease. 658 00:40:40,980 --> 00:40:42,660 This one is the male. 659 00:40:42,731 --> 00:40:45,109 We genetically modify the male. 660 00:40:46,193 --> 00:40:47,736 When it mates with a female... 661 00:40:47,820 --> 00:40:48,696 Hmm. 662 00:40:48,779 --> 00:40:51,198 ...they lay eggs. 663 00:40:51,282 --> 00:40:54,034 - Eggs. - Mosquito eggs. 664 00:40:54,702 --> 00:40:57,246 But these eggs, they can't hatch. 665 00:40:58,622 --> 00:41:00,416 Because you modified its thing. 666 00:41:01,834 --> 00:41:03,752 This is what we are doing. 667 00:41:03,836 --> 00:41:06,714 That's the type of mosquito we have in our laboratory. 668 00:41:08,132 --> 00:41:10,384 This is what we're seeking permission for. 669 00:41:10,759 --> 00:41:13,387 If the people of Bana give us permission, 670 00:41:13,471 --> 00:41:16,557 then we are going to release the mosquitoes 671 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,809 here in Bana. 672 00:41:18,893 --> 00:41:21,854 - I want to do it. - I want to do it, too. 673 00:41:21,937 --> 00:41:23,189 We must all be a part of it! 674 00:41:23,272 --> 00:41:26,275 You see everyone has raised their hands. Do you all agree? 675 00:41:26,358 --> 00:41:29,236 We all agree. We all agree. Let's raise our hands! 676 00:41:40,664 --> 00:41:44,502 We have scientists going into communities, 677 00:41:44,585 --> 00:41:47,713 claiming that they have a solution for very grave problems. 678 00:41:49,256 --> 00:41:51,592 But you can't base the consent 679 00:41:51,675 --> 00:41:53,969 of releasing a risky, 680 00:41:54,053 --> 00:41:56,764 genetically engineered organism into the wild 681 00:41:56,847 --> 00:41:58,474 based on one single community. 682 00:41:59,934 --> 00:42:04,647 I think we need more, uh, to hear the voice 683 00:42:04,730 --> 00:42:08,734 of people living in endemic country where malaria is a problem. 684 00:42:08,817 --> 00:42:13,322 The opinion of somebody that is sitting comfortably in a nice desk 685 00:42:13,405 --> 00:42:18,160 overlooking the bay of San Diego in Southern California, for me... 686 00:42:18,452 --> 00:42:21,205 I mean, I respect it, but for me, it has a different weight 687 00:42:21,288 --> 00:42:23,499 than somebody in Africa. 688 00:42:25,459 --> 00:42:28,045 These are genetically modified mosquitoes. 689 00:42:28,379 --> 00:42:30,798 These have been brought, uh, from Italy. 690 00:42:33,551 --> 00:42:35,386 I wouldn't sit here today and say 691 00:42:35,469 --> 00:42:37,596 that this technology is completely free of risk. 692 00:42:38,722 --> 00:42:41,141 It's a new technology. It has never been done. 693 00:42:46,355 --> 00:42:48,607 But we are taking a phased approach. 694 00:42:50,401 --> 00:42:52,361 We have compiled a dossier, 695 00:42:52,444 --> 00:42:55,948 and we have submitted it to the National Agency of Biosecurity. 696 00:42:58,033 --> 00:43:01,120 So, not a single genetically modified mosquito 697 00:43:01,203 --> 00:43:03,372 is going to be released in the field 698 00:43:03,455 --> 00:43:07,167 if we are not confident about the concern that people have. 699 00:43:09,753 --> 00:43:15,342 We're often told the story in the context of the best possible use. 700 00:43:16,802 --> 00:43:19,096 Maybe you could genetically engineer a mosquito 701 00:43:19,179 --> 00:43:20,931 to not carry malaria. 702 00:43:21,015 --> 00:43:24,268 But clearly, this is a very good vector 703 00:43:24,351 --> 00:43:28,022 for spreading bioweapons and for other offensive uses. 704 00:43:28,105 --> 00:43:31,692 We should never assess a new technology just by its best possible use. 705 00:43:31,775 --> 00:43:34,737 We have to assess it against all the ways it's gonna be used. 706 00:43:34,820 --> 00:43:37,948 What is it doing beyond this thing that I see in front of me? 707 00:43:38,032 --> 00:43:39,992 What's it doing behind the scenes? 708 00:43:41,243 --> 00:43:42,843 DARPA. DARPA takes on 709 00:43:42,870 --> 00:43:46,624 the most difficult technical challenges for the Department of Defense. 710 00:43:47,833 --> 00:43:51,128 DARPA, the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, 711 00:43:51,211 --> 00:43:55,049 seem to be putting millions upon millions of dollars into gene drives. 712 00:43:55,132 --> 00:43:57,009 That's, frankly, terrifying. 713 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,179 And there's a range of other ways in which it could be used. 714 00:44:01,930 --> 00:44:06,101 There is a patent on the idea of using gene drives in bees 715 00:44:06,185 --> 00:44:09,104 so that, uh, you could then control those bees, 716 00:44:09,188 --> 00:44:11,023 using light sources, 717 00:44:11,106 --> 00:44:13,150 to drive it to particular crops. 718 00:44:13,233 --> 00:44:15,444 So, controlling pollination... 719 00:44:15,986 --> 00:44:17,613 if... if a company could do that, 720 00:44:17,905 --> 00:44:20,866 would be, uh, extremely powerful, 721 00:44:20,949 --> 00:44:22,910 and... and they would use that in the marketplace. 722 00:44:22,993 --> 00:44:27,956 The unexpected mutations and the unintended consequences 723 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,460 have profound and dangerous impacts on our environment. 724 00:44:31,543 --> 00:44:35,673 It is irresponsible for a small group of scientists 725 00:44:35,756 --> 00:44:39,760 to be making decisions on behalf of the entire planet. 726 00:44:43,138 --> 00:44:46,767 People may think that it's wrong to, uh... 727 00:44:46,850 --> 00:44:48,644 to play God with environment, 728 00:44:49,061 --> 00:44:50,229 which is very respectable. 729 00:44:50,312 --> 00:44:53,073 But this is a different conversation. This is a conversation on value. 730 00:44:57,736 --> 00:45:00,114 You have to have a hierarchy of value. 731 00:45:01,740 --> 00:45:02,740 In everything. 732 00:45:03,325 --> 00:45:06,412 Otherwise, you cannot distinguish what is good and what is bad. 733 00:45:06,912 --> 00:45:10,874 I think it's the keystone of morality. You have to have a hierarchy of value. 734 00:45:10,958 --> 00:45:13,335 You can't put all the value on the same level. 735 00:45:14,253 --> 00:45:15,453 So what is at the top... 736 00:45:15,504 --> 00:45:16,922 Life is on top of it. 737 00:45:18,799 --> 00:45:21,093 Social stability is on top of it. 738 00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:22,845 Progress, well-being. 739 00:45:22,928 --> 00:45:26,390 Malaria is a disease of poverty and social instability. 740 00:45:26,724 --> 00:45:30,519 My objective is to solve a great health problem, 741 00:45:30,936 --> 00:45:32,938 so everybody will benefit, 742 00:45:33,021 --> 00:45:37,067 irrespective of their social condition or their beliefs or their income. 743 00:45:40,946 --> 00:45:43,115 We are no different from any other species. 744 00:45:44,199 --> 00:45:46,493 I mean, species compete with each other. 745 00:45:46,660 --> 00:45:48,454 We are competing with mosquitoes. 746 00:45:50,414 --> 00:45:51,582 We need to win. 747 00:45:54,835 --> 00:45:58,005 ♪ To the speaking mountains ♪ 748 00:45:59,631 --> 00:46:01,467 ♪ To the echoing cliffs ♪ 749 00:46:02,134 --> 00:46:03,260 ♪ That flow to the sea ♪ 750 00:46:05,262 --> 00:46:06,680 ♪ Call us ♪ 751 00:46:08,056 --> 00:46:09,558 ♪ Call us ♪ 752 00:46:11,018 --> 00:46:12,060 ♪ Call us ♪ 753 00:46:13,854 --> 00:46:17,357 ♪ I acknowledge you Who spoke of the celestial knowledge ♪ 754 00:46:17,524 --> 00:46:19,753 ♪ Knowledge of the heavens And the terrestrial knowledge ♪ 755 00:46:19,777 --> 00:46:21,612 ♪ Earthly knowledge ♪ 756 00:46:21,862 --> 00:46:26,158 ♪ And the prayers you delivered Will be heard day and night ♪ 757 00:46:26,241 --> 00:46:29,912 ♪ Stand like the kahikatea tree ♪ 758 00:46:30,496 --> 00:46:33,999 ♪ To brave the storm ♪ 759 00:46:34,583 --> 00:46:37,961 ♪ Embrace and receive each other ♪ 760 00:46:38,045 --> 00:46:41,548 ♪ We are one together ♪ 761 00:46:41,632 --> 00:46:43,884 Every scientist that's spoken to us, 762 00:46:43,967 --> 00:46:46,303 and I've got a good 30-year experience, 763 00:46:47,095 --> 00:46:48,095 not one... 764 00:46:49,306 --> 00:46:54,353 has ever provided an antidote or a formula to undo the mistake 765 00:46:54,436 --> 00:46:56,146 they usually end up with. 766 00:46:56,230 --> 00:46:59,233 So, we will tell you what we think is possible. 767 00:47:00,108 --> 00:47:03,362 Our best idea to date is a form of local gene drive 768 00:47:03,445 --> 00:47:06,073 that can stop and go away. 769 00:47:06,323 --> 00:47:07,783 It can be made to be reversible 770 00:47:07,866 --> 00:47:09,928 and, in fact, it can be made to be reversible on its own. 771 00:47:09,952 --> 00:47:11,453 Or at least, that's the idea. 772 00:47:11,912 --> 00:47:14,206 We're currently working on the first one, 773 00:47:14,289 --> 00:47:17,292 and we're reasonably confident that it will likely work. 774 00:47:17,376 --> 00:47:18,460 I can't promise that, 775 00:47:19,044 --> 00:47:21,296 but that's my best expectation. 776 00:47:21,380 --> 00:47:25,551 You've come here wanting to talk about pest eradication, 777 00:47:25,634 --> 00:47:28,554 and yet, you yourself realize this is dangerous. 778 00:47:29,555 --> 00:47:32,140 So I just wanted to stand and tell you to your face 779 00:47:32,224 --> 00:47:33,767 I cannot support you 780 00:47:33,851 --> 00:47:37,980 when I see, in actual fact, that your main supporter of finance 781 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,608 is the Americans' war weapon company, DARPA. 782 00:47:41,692 --> 00:47:45,445 Why are they spending all that many millions of dollars? 783 00:47:46,029 --> 00:47:49,825 The only sort of logical conclusion I could come to 784 00:47:49,908 --> 00:47:54,079 is that DARPA, the war weapons organization in the United States, 785 00:47:54,162 --> 00:47:56,415 is looking for biological warfare. 786 00:47:56,498 --> 00:47:59,626 Is DARPA actually going to use that, use you? 787 00:48:00,043 --> 00:48:01,628 I personally am against that. 788 00:48:04,006 --> 00:48:09,261 In terms of weapons, I refuse to do any work in secret. 789 00:48:09,803 --> 00:48:11,972 And so, after some negotiations, they agreed, 790 00:48:12,055 --> 00:48:14,725 and that... that was my unbreakable requirement, 791 00:48:14,808 --> 00:48:17,311 that I will accept military funding for this, 792 00:48:17,394 --> 00:48:18,872 to understand how these systems work, 793 00:48:18,896 --> 00:48:20,936 but only insofar as everything we do is in the open. 794 00:48:22,024 --> 00:48:24,526 And I hold myself morally responsible 795 00:48:24,610 --> 00:48:27,738 for all of the consequences that will ensue. 796 00:48:28,864 --> 00:48:31,074 You know, we've heard lots and lots of nice words 797 00:48:31,158 --> 00:48:34,953 from the colonizers over the... over the millennia... 798 00:48:35,662 --> 00:48:39,499 uh, that have proven to be... hollow... 799 00:48:39,583 --> 00:48:42,502 because underneath it is those hidden agendas. 800 00:48:42,586 --> 00:48:44,129 In a sense, historically, 801 00:48:44,212 --> 00:48:47,799 you're a little bit like the missionary coming with a good story, 802 00:48:47,883 --> 00:48:51,094 but behind you is a whole lot of fellas with some rifles, you know? 803 00:48:51,178 --> 00:48:52,512 You understand what I'm saying? 804 00:48:52,596 --> 00:48:55,682 So, it's... it's not just you personally we're talking about. 805 00:48:55,766 --> 00:48:59,728 It's your ilk, as a whole, coming to this land. 806 00:48:59,811 --> 00:49:02,522 That's what science does. It creates urgency in our minds, 807 00:49:02,606 --> 00:49:04,900 and I'm not gonna be tricked by that. 808 00:49:04,983 --> 00:49:08,904 Given the technology and the way it's racing down the train track, 809 00:49:09,154 --> 00:49:14,618 um, it would be advisable to look at the natural environment a bit longer, 810 00:49:14,701 --> 00:49:18,872 to make sure that we do need to intervene or not. 811 00:49:18,956 --> 00:49:19,956 Thank you. 812 00:49:20,207 --> 00:49:21,207 What do you do? 813 00:49:21,625 --> 00:49:24,127 Do you sit and do nothing or just talk about it? 814 00:49:24,211 --> 00:49:26,588 A lot of our cognate species are going extinct, 815 00:49:26,672 --> 00:49:28,131 and we don't even know. 816 00:49:28,215 --> 00:49:30,342 What's been happening at the moment is quite alarming. 817 00:49:30,425 --> 00:49:32,803 What kind of regulations have gotta be put in place 818 00:49:32,886 --> 00:49:35,138 to actually curb your enthusiasm for it? 819 00:49:35,222 --> 00:49:37,617 I don't have enthusiasm for gene... 820 00:49:37,641 --> 00:49:40,477 What kind of regulations do we need? 821 00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,855 In my view, I think, as... as a country, we need to have a discussion about it. 822 00:49:43,939 --> 00:49:46,566 But I think science, in and of itself, is just like a book, 823 00:49:46,650 --> 00:49:49,319 and I think it would be dangerous if we didn't open the book. 824 00:49:49,736 --> 00:49:51,738 I think we need better ways to control rats. 825 00:49:51,822 --> 00:49:55,325 I don't like poison coming out of the sky as much as the next person. 826 00:50:20,726 --> 00:50:24,062 The people that are resourcing this kind of technology, 827 00:50:24,146 --> 00:50:26,940 a military force, they're after the tools. 828 00:50:29,901 --> 00:50:32,571 The kind of technology they're wanting from Kevin 829 00:50:32,654 --> 00:50:35,782 isn't the technology that he's talking to us about, 830 00:50:35,866 --> 00:50:40,078 but it's, in fact, the evolving technology in Kevin's little tool bag... 831 00:50:41,163 --> 00:50:42,914 that can be used for other things. 832 00:50:43,915 --> 00:50:46,543 It's the mightiest fucking military force on the planet. 833 00:50:46,626 --> 00:50:49,546 They don't bullshit about weapons of mass destruction. 834 00:50:49,629 --> 00:50:52,758 I'm just going on their track record, that's all. 835 00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,349 Research on a radical new way to combat malaria 836 00:51:01,433 --> 00:51:04,102 and other insect-borne diseases could be severely hampered 837 00:51:04,186 --> 00:51:08,023 if proposals to introduce a UN moratorium on the work go ahead. 838 00:51:12,152 --> 00:51:14,488 Ladies and gentlemen and dear colleagues, 839 00:51:14,571 --> 00:51:18,366 welcome to the 22nd meeting of the Biodiversity Convention. 840 00:51:19,159 --> 00:51:22,913 The risks of humans undermining their own existence are very real, 841 00:51:23,955 --> 00:51:27,501 and it is time for the voice of scientists on biodiversity 842 00:51:27,584 --> 00:51:29,211 to be heard as loud and clear. 843 00:51:29,294 --> 00:51:34,007 No gene drives! No gene drives! No gene drives! 844 00:51:34,091 --> 00:51:36,551 These are the experts from around the world for governments 845 00:51:36,635 --> 00:51:39,554 who decide what happens around genetic engineering. 846 00:51:39,638 --> 00:51:42,140 CBD, don't let the gene drives out! 847 00:51:42,849 --> 00:51:46,144 And the big topic under discussion here is going to be gene drives. 848 00:51:46,228 --> 00:51:47,729 Mass extinction! 849 00:51:47,813 --> 00:51:49,689 Is not a solution! 850 00:51:49,773 --> 00:51:53,318 Gene drives are a crazy idea, but militaries are interested. 851 00:51:53,401 --> 00:51:55,463 There are a number of agriculture companies interested. 852 00:51:55,487 --> 00:51:58,949 There needs to be rules internationally saying a moratorium. 853 00:51:59,032 --> 00:52:02,327 Don't put gene drives into the wild, into the field, out of the lab. 854 00:52:02,410 --> 00:52:04,138 - GMO mosquitoes! - Go way! 855 00:52:04,162 --> 00:52:06,123 - GMO mosquitoes! - Go way! 856 00:52:06,206 --> 00:52:10,210 - Say no to GMO! - Say no to GMO! 857 00:52:10,293 --> 00:52:14,131 - Say no to GMO! - Say no to GMO! 858 00:52:14,214 --> 00:52:17,592 Genetic engineering brings up the question of control. 859 00:52:17,676 --> 00:52:21,138 Who is profiting? Who is controlling the technology? 860 00:52:21,221 --> 00:52:22,448 GMO mosquitoes! 861 00:52:22,472 --> 00:52:24,033 - Go away! - GMO mosquitoes! 862 00:52:24,057 --> 00:52:24,891 Go away! 863 00:52:24,975 --> 00:52:26,202 Agribusiness companies, 864 00:52:26,226 --> 00:52:27,561 chemical companies, 865 00:52:27,644 --> 00:52:30,939 mega companies around the world are interested 866 00:52:31,022 --> 00:52:34,818 because it allows them to control nature. 867 00:52:38,530 --> 00:52:42,784 Look how many people, thousands and thousands, 868 00:52:42,868 --> 00:52:46,121 gathered in the capital to say no to GMOs, 869 00:52:46,204 --> 00:52:47,914 to say no to modified mosquitoes, 870 00:52:47,998 --> 00:52:50,667 to say yes to our sovereignty over our food and health. 871 00:52:51,418 --> 00:52:54,838 Everyone against GMO mosquitoes, raise your hands! 872 00:52:57,382 --> 00:53:01,803 NGO 2112, please make the statements very short. 873 00:53:01,887 --> 00:53:04,347 We see proposals proliferating for gene-drive bees, 874 00:53:04,431 --> 00:53:06,516 cats, mice, parasitic worms, 875 00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:08,310 fruit flies, and more. 876 00:53:08,435 --> 00:53:11,897 There should be no release of gene-drive organisms at this time, 877 00:53:11,980 --> 00:53:14,083 and we would like to suggest text that makes this clear. 878 00:53:14,107 --> 00:53:17,277 Gene drives could cause irreversible ecological damage. 879 00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:18,778 There must be a moratorium 880 00:53:18,862 --> 00:53:21,114 on any environmental and commercial release. 881 00:53:22,115 --> 00:53:26,203 I think that would be a disgrace, a moratorium. 882 00:53:26,286 --> 00:53:32,417 The first consequence of a prohibition is that somebody will do it anyhow 883 00:53:32,500 --> 00:53:34,085 and will be not transparent. 884 00:53:34,461 --> 00:53:37,214 The moratorium will have exactly the opposite effect, 885 00:53:37,297 --> 00:53:39,591 so I think, actually, it's dangerous. 886 00:53:40,050 --> 00:53:43,887 It would be desirable if there is a regional agreement, 887 00:53:43,970 --> 00:53:46,640 but I think the people that have the problem 888 00:53:46,723 --> 00:53:48,433 have the right to implement. 889 00:53:48,516 --> 00:53:51,519 I don't think you need total agreement of everybody. 890 00:53:51,603 --> 00:53:52,938 It is New Zealand’s view 891 00:53:53,021 --> 00:53:55,607 that we should assist each application of gene drive 892 00:53:55,690 --> 00:53:58,568 based on its own positive and adverse effects. 893 00:53:58,652 --> 00:54:02,864 Germany cannot support the text that can be interpreted as a moratorium. 894 00:54:02,948 --> 00:54:08,203 There's no blueprint for how we govern, oversee, control, 895 00:54:08,286 --> 00:54:13,917 uh, an advancing, emerging biotechnology across the globe. None. 896 00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,169 Bolivia observes with profound worry 897 00:54:16,253 --> 00:54:18,797 the advancements in gene drives. 898 00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:21,120 South Africa is of the view that gene drives 899 00:54:21,174 --> 00:54:23,677 may pose new risk assessment challenges. 900 00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:27,639 Given the current uncertainties regarding engineered gene drives, 901 00:54:27,722 --> 00:54:31,685 the Philippines urges parties to take a precautionary approach. 902 00:54:31,768 --> 00:54:32,894 We might think of treaties, 903 00:54:32,978 --> 00:54:37,148 but treaties tend to be very difficult to enforce across countries, 904 00:54:37,232 --> 00:54:39,609 and good luck with that, frankly. 905 00:54:39,693 --> 00:54:43,571 New Zealand does not support the reference in paragraphs four and five. 906 00:54:43,655 --> 00:54:45,466 The focus should be on an adequate risk assessment. 907 00:54:45,490 --> 00:54:47,575 Prioritization of risk assessment 908 00:54:47,659 --> 00:54:49,494 and risk management, as well as... 909 00:54:49,577 --> 00:54:50,996 Risk assessments... 910 00:54:51,079 --> 00:54:53,164 We are not comfortable with the recommendations 911 00:54:53,248 --> 00:54:54,916 in paragraph four, five... 912 00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:56,644 We'd like to propose amendments to paragraph... 913 00:54:56,668 --> 00:54:58,920 Lines two and three in paragraph seven. 914 00:54:59,004 --> 00:55:01,440 If you were to say, "Where have we been successful in that in the past?" 915 00:55:01,464 --> 00:55:02,841 - Paragraphs four... - Paragraph... 916 00:55:02,924 --> 00:55:04,426 - Paragraph nine. - Paragraph six. 917 00:55:05,927 --> 00:55:07,262 There isn't an example. 918 00:55:15,228 --> 00:55:16,948 The thing that we shouldn't forget 919 00:55:17,022 --> 00:55:20,108 is that Africa is really suffering from this burden. 920 00:55:20,734 --> 00:55:23,737 At the human level, we are the ones suffering from this thing. 921 00:55:24,696 --> 00:55:28,658 Every single minute, one kid is dying from malaria. 922 00:55:30,327 --> 00:55:32,203 How many people are you going to lose? 923 00:55:35,957 --> 00:55:40,295 I was born here in Burkina, grew up in Burkina, 924 00:55:40,378 --> 00:55:42,714 and I know what is the burden of malaria. 925 00:55:45,550 --> 00:55:49,721 This is really my hope ever since I have been in this world. 926 00:55:51,723 --> 00:55:54,809 Will we be able to eradicate it in two years or three years? 927 00:55:54,893 --> 00:55:56,853 I just can't give you an answer. 928 00:55:56,936 --> 00:55:58,521 But I'm absolutely confident 929 00:55:58,605 --> 00:56:01,858 that bearing the burden of malaria is not the fate of Africa. 930 00:56:13,078 --> 00:56:15,038 I do have concerns about... 931 00:56:15,538 --> 00:56:18,750 whether or not I'm making the right decision. 932 00:56:25,632 --> 00:56:30,637 Ensuring that I'm not wrecking my body further... 933 00:56:31,638 --> 00:56:33,890 isn't something I can do a hundred percent. 934 00:56:35,809 --> 00:56:38,228 I could impact the virus itself... 935 00:56:39,604 --> 00:56:42,232 creating an even stronger opponent. 936 00:56:45,777 --> 00:56:47,487 Tristan's concerns... 937 00:56:48,113 --> 00:56:49,113 his feelings... 938 00:56:49,656 --> 00:56:51,658 everything has to be taken into account. 939 00:56:51,741 --> 00:56:53,076 He can't be disregarded. 940 00:56:54,077 --> 00:56:55,495 At the same time, 941 00:56:55,578 --> 00:56:59,332 the most important thing to do is to keep moving forward, 942 00:56:59,416 --> 00:57:02,585 because if we stop working, then our value... 943 00:57:03,461 --> 00:57:05,296 goes away. It drops off. 944 00:57:06,506 --> 00:57:08,401 The way I put it is like, there's, like, a maybe... 945 00:57:08,425 --> 00:57:10,885 Let's say there's a one percent chance that it works 946 00:57:10,969 --> 00:57:13,805 and it can positively benefit thousands of people. 947 00:57:14,222 --> 00:57:17,851 Like, how do you balance out those two extremes, the two tails? 948 00:57:18,977 --> 00:57:22,188 At what point is it not worth the risk, right? 949 00:57:50,467 --> 00:57:53,470 Look at all that. That water is pretty close to boiling. 950 00:57:53,887 --> 00:57:54,887 And yet... 951 00:57:56,222 --> 00:57:58,016 it clearly doesn't care about the heat. 952 00:57:59,726 --> 00:58:00,935 Life finds a way. 953 00:58:06,232 --> 00:58:08,234 Science is explicitly about... 954 00:58:09,152 --> 00:58:12,280 learning to understand the things that we can see and measure. 955 00:58:14,032 --> 00:58:16,284 So as soon as people bring up the spiritual, 956 00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:19,370 that's not directly relevant to science. 957 00:58:20,538 --> 00:58:22,040 But the same is true for ethics. 958 00:58:22,582 --> 00:58:25,585 Soon as people bring up the question of what we should do, 959 00:58:25,835 --> 00:58:27,921 that's not a scientific question. 960 00:58:29,339 --> 00:58:31,299 Often, the technology is the easy part. 961 00:58:32,926 --> 00:58:36,137 It's always dealing with other people, other complex, evolving creatures 962 00:58:36,221 --> 00:58:38,640 with their own evolving ideas in competition with ours. 963 00:58:41,726 --> 00:58:43,853 But you can't just hide out in your lab 964 00:58:44,854 --> 00:58:48,024 and invent things without thinking about the consequences. 965 00:58:52,195 --> 00:58:54,155 I still have nightmares about boxes... 966 00:58:55,532 --> 00:58:57,325 in the Pandora's box sense. 967 00:58:59,452 --> 00:59:01,996 Because we need to keep opening boxes. 968 00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:04,207 Our civilization is not sustainable. 969 00:59:04,457 --> 00:59:06,793 But we're not so hot at telling which ones will help 970 00:59:06,876 --> 00:59:08,419 and which ones are dangerous. 971 00:59:09,254 --> 00:59:10,254 So... 972 00:59:10,838 --> 00:59:13,800 to me, that is the challenge, more than anything else. 973 00:59:16,135 --> 00:59:18,137 How do we coordinate our efforts 974 00:59:18,221 --> 00:59:20,682 to ensure that the dangerous ones are not opened? 975 00:59:40,034 --> 00:59:41,394 You see how calm they are? 976 00:59:43,454 --> 00:59:46,040 In the evening, the bees are nice and calm and settled, 977 00:59:46,124 --> 00:59:49,460 and they don't mind being disturbed as much as they normally would, 978 00:59:50,545 --> 00:59:52,380 and it's easier for us to harvest. 979 00:59:52,463 --> 00:59:54,340 We don't need any protective gear. 980 01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:04,600 Okay. 981 01:00:08,229 --> 01:00:10,690 There are more options that are available to us. 982 01:00:10,773 --> 01:00:13,651 The natural environment has options on its own. 983 01:00:13,735 --> 01:00:15,903 Science needs to study natural environments, 984 01:00:15,987 --> 01:00:17,405 not to change them. 985 01:00:18,990 --> 01:00:21,451 Because science isn't meant to do what Kevin's done, 986 01:00:21,743 --> 01:00:26,998 creating a Pandora's box where anything can be used, 987 01:00:27,081 --> 01:00:30,585 anything can be done with this gene editing.