1
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FRANZ SUCHOMEL
2
00:00:03,253 --> 00:00:07,429
What was the capacity
of the new gas chambers?
3
00:00:07,508 --> 00:00:10,136
There were 2 of them, right?
- Yes.
4
00:00:10,219 --> 00:00:16,397
But the old ones
hadn't been demolished.
5
00:00:17,893 --> 00:00:22,194
When there were a lot of trains,
a lot of people,
6
00:00:22,272 --> 00:00:25,822
the old ovens
were put back into service.
7
00:00:27,653 --> 00:00:33,035
And here... the Jews say
there were 5 on each side.
8
00:00:33,283 --> 00:00:35,502
I say there were 4,
9
00:00:35,744 --> 00:00:37,997
but I'm not sure.
10
00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,584
In any case, only the upper row,
11
00:00:43,293 --> 00:00:45,216
on this side,
12
00:00:46,088 --> 00:00:49,058
was in action.
13
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[ Lanzmann ]
Why not the other side?
14
00:00:51,593 --> 00:00:58,317
[Suchomel ] Disposing of the bodies
would have been too complicated.
15
00:00:59,017 --> 00:01:00,519
- Too far?
- Yes.
16
00:01:00,602 --> 00:01:06,200
Up there,
Wirth had built the death camp...
17
00:01:06,275 --> 00:01:06,992
[ Lanzmann ]
Ja.
18
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[Suchomel ]
assigning a detail of Jewish workers to it.
19
00:01:14,283 --> 00:01:17,913
The detail had a fixed number in it,
20
00:01:17,995 --> 00:01:21,169
around 200 people...
21
00:01:22,165 --> 00:01:24,259
[ Lanzmann ]
Die im Toten/ager...
22
00:01:24,334 --> 00:01:28,430
[Suchomel Repeats Phrase]
who worked only in the death camp.
23
00:01:28,505 --> 00:01:33,181
[ Lanzmann ] But what was
the capacity of the new gas chambers?
24
00:01:33,510 --> 00:01:37,856
The new gas chambers... Let's see...
25
00:01:38,682 --> 00:01:43,358
They could finish off 3,000 people
in two hours.
26
00:01:46,064 --> 00:01:51,070
[ Lanzmann ] How many people at once
in a single gas chamber?
27
00:01:51,361 --> 00:01:54,535
I can't say exactly.
28
00:01:54,615 --> 00:01:56,993
The Jews say 200.
29
00:01:57,534 --> 00:02:00,413
- 200?
- That's right, 200.
30
00:02:01,663 --> 00:02:07,420
Imagine a room this size.
31
00:02:07,502 --> 00:02:09,630
[ Lanzmann ]
They put more in at Auschwitz.
32
00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,383
Auschwitz was a factory!
33
00:02:14,343 --> 00:02:16,641
[ Lanzmann ]
And Treblinka?
34
00:02:17,054 --> 00:02:20,058
I'll give you my definition.
35
00:02:20,891 --> 00:02:22,609
Keep this in mind:
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Treblinka was a primitive,
37
00:02:28,899 --> 00:02:35,157
but efficient production line of death.
38
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- A production line?
- Of death.
39
00:02:39,242 --> 00:02:41,415
Understand?
- Yes.
40
00:02:45,749 --> 00:02:50,004
But primitive...?
- Primitive, yes.
41
00:02:50,087 --> 00:02:51,009
Ja.
42
00:02:51,088 --> 00:02:56,015
But it worked well,
that production line of death.
43
00:02:56,259 --> 00:02:59,479
Was Belzec even more rudimentary?
44
00:02:59,554 --> 00:03:02,979
Belzec was the laboratory.
45
00:03:03,058 --> 00:03:07,438
Wirth was camp commandant.
46
00:03:08,772 --> 00:03:13,448
He tried everything imaginable there.
47
00:03:14,444 --> 00:03:17,994
He got off on the wrong foot.
48
00:03:18,073 --> 00:03:20,075
The pits were overflowing,
49
00:03:20,158 --> 00:03:25,915
and the cesspool seeped out
in front of the SS mess hall.
50
00:03:25,997 --> 00:03:27,670
It stank...
51
00:03:28,667 --> 00:03:32,046
in front of the mess-hall,
in front of their barracks.
52
00:03:32,462 --> 00:03:35,306
- Were you at Belzec?
- No.
53
00:03:35,924 --> 00:03:38,973
Wirlh with his own men.
54
00:03:39,594 --> 00:03:42,564
With Franz, with Oberhauser
55
00:03:43,140 --> 00:03:44,892
and Hackenhold...
56
00:03:44,975 --> 00:03:46,977
he tried everything there.
57
00:03:47,978 --> 00:03:54,236
Those 3 had to put the bodies
in the pits themselves
58
00:03:55,277 --> 00:04:01,159
so that Wirth could see
how much space he needed.
59
00:04:02,159 --> 00:04:05,333
And when they rebelled...
60
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Franz refused...
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Wirlh beat Franz with a whip.
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00:04:10,125 --> 00:04:12,878
He whipped Hackenhold, too. You see?
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00:04:12,961 --> 00:04:14,838
- Kurt Franz?
- Kurt Franz.
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Mm-hmm.
65
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That's how Wirth was.
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00:04:18,884 --> 00:04:22,514
Then, with that experience behind him,
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he came to Treblinka.
68
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[ People Chattering In German]
69
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[Glasses Clanking ]
70
00:06:00,193 --> 00:06:02,446
[Woman Speaking German]
71
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[ Lanzmann, In German ] Excuse me.
How many quarts of beer a day do you sell?
72
00:06:15,083 --> 00:06:17,336
You can't tell me?
73
00:06:19,462 --> 00:06:23,137
[ In German]
I'd rather not. I have my reasons.
74
00:06:23,466 --> 00:06:25,514
- But why not?
- Ja.
75
00:06:25,802 --> 00:06:27,930
[ Man ]
Two Pilsners.
76
00:06:28,388 --> 00:06:29,810
Ja.
77
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[ Lanzmann ]
How many quarts of beer a day do you sell?
78
00:06:40,442 --> 00:06:43,070
- Go on, tell him.
- Tell him what?
79
00:06:43,153 --> 00:06:46,327
Just tell him approximately.
80
00:06:46,573 --> 00:06:50,043
How many quarts of beer a day
do you sell?
81
00:06:50,118 --> 00:06:51,244
400, 500 quarts.
82
00:06:51,328 --> 00:06:53,956
- What?
- 400, 500 quarts.
83
00:06:54,831 --> 00:06:55,923
- [ Repeats Phrase]
- Hier.
84
00:06:55,999 --> 00:06:58,047
That's a lot!
85
00:06:58,126 --> 00:07:00,504
[ German ]
86
00:07:04,507 --> 00:07:07,386
Have you worked here long?
87
00:07:08,845 --> 00:07:12,566
- Around 20 years.
- [ Repeats Phrase]
88
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: 3%:
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00:07:13,683 --> 00:07:16,983
Why are you hiding...
- I have my reasons.
90
00:07:17,062 --> 00:07:20,236
- Your face?
- I have my reasons.
91
00:07:20,482 --> 00:07:22,405
What reasons?
92
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- Never mind.
- Why not?
93
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[ Lanzmann]
Do you recognize this man?
94
00:07:45,590 --> 00:07:46,887
No?
95
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Christian Wirlh?
96
00:07:49,094 --> 00:07:50,892
Mr. Oberhauser!
97
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Do you remember Belzec?
98
00:07:54,599 --> 00:07:57,227
No memories of Belzec?
99
00:07:58,311 --> 00:07:59,904
Nein?
100
00:08:01,898 --> 00:08:03,400
Nein?
101
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Of the overflowing graves?
102
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You don't remember?
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MUNICH
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WUPPERTAL: ANTON SPIESS,
105
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German state prosecutor
at the Treblinka trial (Frankfurt, 1960)
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[ In German]
When the Action itself first got under way,
107
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it was almost totally improvised.
108
00:09:09,466 --> 00:09:14,017
At Treblinka, for example,
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the commandant, Dr. Eberl,
let more trains come in
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than the camp could handle.
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It was a disaster!
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Mountains of corpses!
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Word of this foul-up
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reached the head of the Reinhard Action,
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Odilo Globocznik, in Lublin.
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He went to Treblinka
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to see what was happening.
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There's a very concrete
account of the trip
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by his former driver, Oberhauser.
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Globocznik arrived
on a hot day in August.
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The camp was permeated
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with the stench of rotting flesh.
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Globocznik didn't even bother
to enter the camp.
124
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He stopped here,
before the commandant's office,
125
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sent for Dr. Eberl
126
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and greeted him with these words,
127
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“How dare you accept
so many every day
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when you can only process 3,000?”
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Operations were suspended,
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Eberl was transferred and Wirth came,
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followed immediately by Stangl,
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and the camp was completely reorganized.
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The Reinhard Action
covered 3 extermination camps:
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Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec.
135
00:11:17,468 --> 00:11:22,315
There's also talk of 3 death camps
on the Bug River,
136
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for they were all located
on or near the Bug.
137
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The gas chambers
were the head of the camp.
138
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They were built first,
139
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in the woods, or in a field,
as at Treblinka.
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The gas chambers were
the only stone buildings.
141
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All the others were wooden sheds.
142
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These camps weren't built to last.
143
00:11:58,635 --> 00:12:03,391
Himmler was in a huny
to begin the 'final solution. ”
144
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The Germans had to capitalize
on their eastward advance
145
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and use this remote back-country
146
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to carry out their mass murder
as secretly as possible.
147
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So at first they couldn't
manage the perfection
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they achieved 3 months later.
149
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[ Piwonski Speaking Polish]
150
00:12:45,390 --> 00:12:47,768
[ Interpreter
Near the end of March 1942...
151
00:12:47,850 --> 00:12:54,324
[ Piwonski Continues ]
152
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sizeable groups of Jews
were herded here,
153
00:12:58,569 --> 00:13:00,697
groups of 50 to 100 people.
154
00:13:02,115 --> 00:13:06,086
[ Piwonski Continues ]
155
00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:07,787
Several trains arrived...
156
00:13:07,870 --> 00:13:15,425
[ Piwonski Continues ]
157
00:13:15,503 --> 00:13:19,474
with sections of barracks,
with posts, barbed wire, bricks...
158
00:13:23,219 --> 00:13:26,814
[ Piwonski Continues ]
159
00:13:26,889 --> 00:13:30,769
and construction
of the camp as such began.
160
00:13:32,312 --> 00:13:34,656
[Train Whistle Blows]
161
00:13:37,233 --> 00:13:42,364
[ Piwonski Continues ]
162
00:13:42,447 --> 00:13:44,575
The Jews unloaded these cars...
163
00:13:44,657 --> 00:13:49,504
[ Piwonski Continues ]
164
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and carted the sections
of barracks to the camp.
165
00:13:54,917 --> 00:14:02,017
[ Piwonski Continues ]
166
00:14:02,091 --> 00:14:05,846
The Germans made them
work extremely fast.
167
00:14:07,722 --> 00:14:16,984
[ Piwonski Continues ]
168
00:14:17,065 --> 00:14:20,194
When we saw the pace they worked at...
169
00:14:20,276 --> 00:14:28,878
[ Piwonski Continues ]
170
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It was extremely brutal.
171
00:14:31,287 --> 00:14:39,763
[ Piwonski Continues ]
172
00:14:39,837 --> 00:14:44,058
When we saw the complex being built,
and the fence,
173
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which, after all, enclosed a vast space...
174
00:14:47,678 --> 00:14:55,358
[ Piwonski Continues ]
175
00:14:55,436 --> 00:14:59,441
we realized that
what the Germans were building
176
00:14:59,524 --> 00:15:01,868
wasn't meant to aid mankind.
177
00:15:01,943 --> 00:15:04,947
[ Wind Whistling ]
178
00:15:05,029 --> 00:15:06,622
[ Birds Chirping ]
179
00:15:06,697 --> 00:15:12,420
[ Piwonski Continues ]
180
00:15:12,495 --> 00:15:14,293
Early in June...
181
00:15:14,372 --> 00:15:21,756
[ Piwonski Continues ]
182
00:15:21,838 --> 00:15:23,806
the first convoy arrived.
183
00:15:23,881 --> 00:15:27,511
[ Piwonski Continues ]
184
00:15:27,593 --> 00:15:29,846
I'd say there were over 40 cars.
185
00:15:29,929 --> 00:15:36,062
[ Piwonski Continues ]
186
00:15:36,144 --> 00:15:39,694
With the convoy
were SS men in black uniforms.
187
00:15:39,772 --> 00:15:44,278
[ Piwonski Continues ]
188
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It happened one afternoon.
He had just finished work.
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JAN PIWONSKI
190
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But he got on his bicycle and went home.
191
00:15:57,290 --> 00:15:58,963
[ In French]
Why?
192
00:15:59,041 --> 00:16:01,089
[ Interpreter
193
00:16:10,761 --> 00:16:12,604
I merely thought
194
00:16:13,431 --> 00:16:17,152
these people had come to build the camp,
195
00:16:17,852 --> 00:16:19,900
as the others had before them.
196
00:16:21,606 --> 00:16:23,233
That convoy...
197
00:16:24,775 --> 00:16:28,245
There was no way
of knowing that it was...
198
00:16:32,241 --> 00:16:34,414
the first earmarked for extermination.
199
00:16:35,828 --> 00:16:38,331
- Besides...
- [ Piwonski Continues]
200
00:16:38,414 --> 00:16:41,338
He couldn't have known that Sobibor...
201
00:16:41,417 --> 00:16:43,340
[ Piwonski Continues]
202
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Would be a place for the mass
extermination of the Jews.
203
00:16:58,518 --> 00:17:02,989
The next morning,
when I came here to work,
204
00:17:03,231 --> 00:17:07,281
the station was absolutely silent,
205
00:17:31,926 --> 00:17:36,352
and we realized,
206
00:17:36,430 --> 00:17:42,153
after talking with the Poles
who worked at the station here,
207
00:17:43,980 --> 00:17:48,702
that something utterly
incomprehensible had happened.
208
00:17:54,824 --> 00:17:57,668
First of all, when the camp
was being built,
209
00:18:03,833 --> 00:18:06,086
there were orders shouted in German,
210
00:18:06,544 --> 00:18:08,262
there were screams,
211
00:18:09,463 --> 00:18:13,218
Jews were working at the run,
there were shots,
212
00:18:14,051 --> 00:18:17,180
and here there was that silence...
213
00:18:19,473 --> 00:18:21,100
[ Interpreter
Mm-hmm.
214
00:18:22,518 --> 00:18:24,520
No work crews,
215
00:18:28,024 --> 00:18:30,197
a really total silence.
216
00:18:35,197 --> 00:18:37,450
[ Interpreter
217
00:18:38,409 --> 00:18:42,209
40 cars had arrived,
and then... nothing.
218
00:18:42,413 --> 00:18:45,212
It was all very strange.
219
00:18:46,542 --> 00:18:48,795
[Lanzmann]
It was the silence that tipped them off?
220
00:18:48,878 --> 00:18:50,130
That's right.
221
00:18:50,212 --> 00:18:53,341
- Can he describe that silence?
- [ interpreter
222
00:18:53,591 --> 00:18:54,808
[ Piwonski Replies ]
223
00:18:54,884 --> 00:18:57,763
- It was a silence...
- [ Piwonski Continues ]
224
00:18:57,845 --> 00:19:01,975
Nothing was going on in the camp.
You heard nothing.
225
00:19:02,058 --> 00:19:03,901
Nothing moved.
226
00:19:04,518 --> 00:19:10,651
[ Piwonski Continues ]
227
00:19:10,733 --> 00:19:13,703
So then they began to wonder...
228
00:19:13,778 --> 00:19:17,078
[ Piwonski Continues ]
229
00:19:17,156 --> 00:19:20,456
“Where have they put those Jews?”
230
00:19:25,164 --> 00:19:30,091
[ MUIIer, In German]
Cell 13, Block 11 at Auschwitz 1,
231
00:19:30,169 --> 00:19:33,594
is where
the Special Work Detail was held.
232
00:19:35,675 --> 00:19:39,270
The cell was underground, isolated.
233
00:19:40,221 --> 00:19:43,646
For we were...
234
00:19:45,184 --> 00:19:47,232
“bearers of secrets,”
235
00:19:48,729 --> 00:19:51,107
we were reprieved dead men.
236
00:19:53,109 --> 00:19:56,238
We weren't allowed to talk to anyone,
237
00:19:56,445 --> 00:19:59,244
or contact any prisoner,
238
00:19:59,782 --> 00:20:02,706
even the SS.
239
00:20:02,952 --> 00:20:07,173
Only those in charge of the “Action.”
240
00:20:11,168 --> 00:20:13,296
There was a window.
241
00:20:14,130 --> 00:20:17,760
We heard what happened in the courtyard.
242
00:20:19,468 --> 00:20:21,721
The executions,
243
00:20:22,763 --> 00:20:26,017
the victims' cries, the screams,
244
00:20:26,726 --> 00:20:28,899
but we couldn't see anything.
245
00:20:34,775 --> 00:20:37,369
This went on for several days.
246
00:20:38,738 --> 00:20:42,834
One night an SS man came
247
00:20:43,743 --> 00:20:45,962
from the political section.
248
00:20:47,747 --> 00:20:53,470
It was around 4 A.M.
249
00:20:57,673 --> 00:21:02,975
The whole camp was still asleep.
250
00:21:05,514 --> 00:21:08,393
There wasn't a sound in the camp.
251
00:21:16,859 --> 00:21:22,116
We were again taken out of our cell
252
00:21:24,158 --> 00:21:27,037
and led to the crematorium.
253
00:21:32,416 --> 00:21:36,296
There, for the first time,
I saw the procedure used
254
00:21:36,378 --> 00:21:40,508
with those who came in alive.
255
00:21:41,634 --> 00:21:43,807
We were lined up against a wall
256
00:21:43,886 --> 00:21:47,766
and told, “No one may talk
to those people. ”
257
00:21:51,727 --> 00:21:56,824
Suddenly, the wooden door
to the crematorium courtyard opened,
258
00:21:56,899 --> 00:22:02,702
and 250 to 300 people filed in:
259
00:22:02,780 --> 00:22:06,080
old people, and women.
260
00:22:08,410 --> 00:22:12,210
They carried bundles,
wore the Star of David.
261
00:22:14,208 --> 00:22:16,927
Even from a distance, I could tell
262
00:22:17,002 --> 00:22:20,552
they were Polish Jews,
263
00:22:22,132 --> 00:22:25,727
probably from Upper Silesia,
264
00:22:25,928 --> 00:22:30,934
from the Sosnowiec ghetto,
some 20 miles from Auschwitz.
265
00:22:33,143 --> 00:22:34,520
FILIP MULLER
266
00:22:34,603 --> 00:22:39,825
I caught some of the things they said.
267
00:22:40,943 --> 00:22:42,786
I heard “fachowitz,”
268
00:22:42,862 --> 00:22:45,285
meaning “skilled worker.”
269
00:22:45,698 --> 00:22:48,622
And “Malach-ha-Mavis,”
270
00:22:49,368 --> 00:22:52,417
which means
“the angel of death” in Yiddish.
271
00:22:55,207 --> 00:22:58,507
Also, “harginnen”:
“They're going to kill us.”
272
00:23:01,964 --> 00:23:05,889
From what I could hear,
273
00:23:06,135 --> 00:23:10,390
I clearly understood
the struggle going on inside them.
274
00:23:10,639 --> 00:23:12,892
Sometimes they spoke of work
275
00:23:12,975 --> 00:23:17,481
probably hoping
that they'd be put to work.
276
00:23:18,647 --> 00:23:22,993
Or they spoke of “Malach-ha-Mavis,”
the angel of death.
277
00:23:24,570 --> 00:23:28,825
The conflicting words echoed
the conflict in their feelings.
278
00:23:29,575 --> 00:23:33,125
Then a sudden silence
279
00:23:33,662 --> 00:23:37,917
fell over those gathered
in the crematorium courtyard.
280
00:23:40,544 --> 00:23:43,673
All eyes converged
281
00:23:44,423 --> 00:23:47,973
on the flat roof of the crematorium.
282
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,774
Who was standing there?
283
00:23:53,849 --> 00:23:56,193
Aumeyer, of the SS,
284
00:23:57,102 --> 00:23:59,901
Grabner,
the head of the political section,
285
00:24:00,481 --> 00:24:03,200
and Hossler, the SS officer.
286
00:24:04,318 --> 00:24:07,697
Aumeyer addressed the crowd,
287
00:24:09,657 --> 00:24:13,287
“You're here to work,
288
00:24:13,369 --> 00:24:18,296
for our soldiers fighting at the front.
289
00:24:20,542 --> 00:24:23,512
Those who can work will be all right.”
290
00:24:24,713 --> 00:24:32,313
It was obvious
that hope flared in those people.
291
00:24:32,388 --> 00:24:36,393
You could feel it clearly.
292
00:24:37,643 --> 00:24:41,238
The executioners had gotten
past the first obstacle.
293
00:24:42,231 --> 00:24:45,701
They saw it was succeeding.
294
00:24:47,569 --> 00:24:49,913
Then Grabner spoke up,
295
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,916
“We need masons, electricians,
296
00:24:56,578 --> 00:24:58,797
all the trades.”
297
00:24:59,748 --> 00:25:04,094
Next, Hossler took over.
298
00:25:05,254 --> 00:25:09,930
He pointed to a short man in the crowd.
299
00:25:10,009 --> 00:25:12,103
I can still see him.
300
00:25:12,177 --> 00:25:14,020
“What's your trade?”
301
00:25:14,096 --> 00:25:15,518
The man said,
302
00:25:15,597 --> 00:25:18,942
“Mr. Officer, I'm a tailor.”
303
00:25:19,727 --> 00:25:23,277
“A tailor? What kind of tailor?”
304
00:25:24,481 --> 00:25:28,782
“A man's... No, for both men and women.”
305
00:25:28,861 --> 00:25:34,118
“Wonderful! We need people
like you in our workshops.”
306
00:25:36,285 --> 00:25:39,289
Then he questioned a woman,
307
00:25:40,039 --> 00:25:42,713
“Whafs your trade?”
308
00:25:43,333 --> 00:25:45,882
“Nurse,” she replied.
309
00:25:45,961 --> 00:25:52,469
“Splendid! We need nurses
in our hospitals for our soldiers.
310
00:25:52,801 --> 00:25:57,181
We need all of you!
But first, undress.
311
00:25:58,057 --> 00:26:00,981
You must be disinfected.
312
00:26:01,185 --> 00:26:04,405
We want you healthy.”
313
00:26:06,899 --> 00:26:10,278
I could see the people were calmer,
314
00:26:10,903 --> 00:26:15,158
reassured by what they'd heard,
315
00:26:15,866 --> 00:26:18,995
and they began to undress.
316
00:26:20,871 --> 00:26:23,340
Even if they still had their doubts,
317
00:26:24,166 --> 00:26:27,170
if you want to live, you must hope.
318
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,395
Their clothing remained
in the courtyard,
319
00:26:37,221 --> 00:26:39,895
scattered everywhere.
320
00:26:41,100 --> 00:26:43,774
Aumeyer was beaming,
321
00:26:43,852 --> 00:26:47,777
very proud of how he'd handled things.
322
00:26:47,856 --> 00:26:52,407
He turned to some of the SS men
and told them,
323
00:26:52,486 --> 00:26:55,660
“You see? That's the way to do it!”
324
00:26:57,116 --> 00:26:59,244
By this device,
325
00:26:59,493 --> 00:27:05,546
a great leap forward had been made:
326
00:27:06,166 --> 00:27:09,545
Now the clothing could be used.
327
00:27:13,298 --> 00:27:15,096
RAUL H I LBERG, historian
328
00:27:15,217 --> 00:27:18,642
[ In English] In all of my work, I have never begun
by asking the big questions,
329
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,224
because I was always afraid
that I would come up with small answers,
330
00:27:22,307 --> 00:27:27,029
and I have preferred, therefore,
to address these things,
331
00:27:27,104 --> 00:27:29,823
which are minutiae or detail,
332
00:27:29,898 --> 00:27:33,823
in order that I might then
be able to put together
333
00:27:33,902 --> 00:27:35,654
in a gestalt,
334
00:27:35,737 --> 00:27:38,035
a picture, which, urn,
335
00:27:38,740 --> 00:27:41,414
if not an explanation,
is at least a description,
336
00:27:41,493 --> 00:27:45,748
a more full description,
of what transpired.
337
00:27:46,039 --> 00:27:51,887
And, in that sense, I look also upon
the bureaucratic destruction process,
338
00:27:51,962 --> 00:27:53,839
for this is what it was,
339
00:27:53,922 --> 00:27:58,519
as a series of minute steps
taken in logical order
340
00:27:58,594 --> 00:28:01,848
and relying above all,
as much as possible,
341
00:28:01,930 --> 00:28:05,434
on experience, past experience.
342
00:28:05,517 --> 00:28:09,693
And this goes not only, incidentally,
for the administrative steps that were taken,
343
00:28:09,771 --> 00:28:12,274
but also the psychological arguments,
344
00:28:12,566 --> 00:28:14,944
even the propaganda.
345
00:28:15,027 --> 00:28:19,328
Amazingly little was newly invented
346
00:28:19,573 --> 00:28:22,122
until, of course, the moment came
347
00:28:22,201 --> 00:28:26,923
when one had to go beyond that which
had already been established by precedent,
348
00:28:26,997 --> 00:28:28,874
and one had to gas these people,
349
00:28:28,957 --> 00:28:32,427
or, in some sense,
annihilate them on a large scale.
350
00:28:32,502 --> 00:28:36,132
Then, these bureaucrats became inventors.
351
00:28:36,965 --> 00:28:39,889
But like all, all inventors of institutions,
352
00:28:39,968 --> 00:28:42,892
they did not copyright
or patent their achievements,
353
00:28:42,971 --> 00:28:45,895
and they preferred obscurity.
354
00:28:47,309 --> 00:28:50,529
[ Lanzmann, In English]
What did they get from the past, the Nazis?
355
00:28:53,106 --> 00:28:57,828
They got the actual content
of measures which they took.
356
00:28:57,903 --> 00:29:02,158
For example, the barring of Jews from office,
357
00:29:03,367 --> 00:29:06,997
the prohibition of intermarriages,
358
00:29:07,496 --> 00:29:13,503
the employment in Jewish homes
of female persons under the age of 45,
359
00:29:15,295 --> 00:29:20,176
the various marking decrees,
especially the Jewish star,
360
00:29:21,593 --> 00:29:23,687
the compulsory ghetto,
361
00:29:25,555 --> 00:29:29,401
the voidance of any will executed by a Jew
362
00:29:29,476 --> 00:29:32,104
that might work in such a way
363
00:29:32,187 --> 00:29:38,115
as to prevent inheritance of his property
by someone who was a Christian.
364
00:29:38,944 --> 00:29:43,370
Many such measures had been worked out
365
00:29:43,699 --> 00:29:47,329
over the course of
more than a thousand years
366
00:29:48,704 --> 00:29:52,254
by authorities of the Church
367
00:29:52,541 --> 00:29:57,889
and by secular governments
that followed in those footsteps.
368
00:29:58,797 --> 00:30:00,799
And the experience gathered over that time
369
00:30:00,882 --> 00:30:03,931
became a reservoir that could be used
370
00:30:04,011 --> 00:30:07,231
and which indeed was used
to an amazing extent.
371
00:30:09,182 --> 00:30:11,230
You mean that one can compare...
372
00:30:11,310 --> 00:30:13,278
- One can actually compare...
- each measure?
373
00:30:13,353 --> 00:30:20,908
One can compare a rather large number
of German laws and decrees
374
00:30:20,986 --> 00:30:23,364
with their counterparts in the past
375
00:30:23,905 --> 00:30:26,249
and find complete parallels,
376
00:30:26,533 --> 00:30:28,251
even in detail,
377
00:30:29,411 --> 00:30:31,914
as if they were a memory
378
00:30:32,664 --> 00:30:37,261
which automatically extended
to the period of 1933
379
00:30:37,336 --> 00:30:42,058
and 1935 and 1939 and beyond.
380
00:30:42,883 --> 00:30:46,012
In such respect,
they didn't invent anything?
381
00:30:46,094 --> 00:30:47,687
They invented very little,
382
00:30:47,763 --> 00:30:50,482
and they did not invent
the portrait of the Jew,
383
00:30:50,557 --> 00:30:52,980
which also was taken over,
lock, stock and barrel,
384
00:30:53,060 --> 00:30:56,655
from writings going back
to the 16th century.
385
00:30:56,897 --> 00:30:58,695
So, even the propaganda,
386
00:30:58,774 --> 00:31:01,994
the realm of the imagination
andinvenfion,
387
00:31:02,069 --> 00:31:06,916
even there, they were remarkably
in the footsteps of those who preceded them,
388
00:31:06,990 --> 00:31:10,836
from Martin Luther to the 19th century.
389
00:31:12,621 --> 00:31:14,965
And, here again, they were not inventive.
390
00:31:15,415 --> 00:31:18,510
They had to become inventive
with the “final solution.”
391
00:31:18,585 --> 00:31:20,212
That was their great invention,
392
00:31:20,295 --> 00:31:23,720
and that is what made
this entire process different
393
00:31:23,799 --> 00:31:27,679
from all others
that had preceded that event.
394
00:31:29,054 --> 00:31:31,056
And, in this respect,
395
00:31:32,516 --> 00:31:38,569
what transpired
when the “final solution” was... adopted,
396
00:31:38,647 --> 00:31:41,070
or, to be more precise,
397
00:31:41,900 --> 00:31:45,279
when the bureaucracy moved into it,
398
00:31:47,239 --> 00:31:49,583
was a turning point in history.
399
00:31:52,661 --> 00:31:59,044
Even here, I would suggest
a logical progression,
400
00:32:00,252 --> 00:32:03,222
one which came to fruition
401
00:32:04,589 --> 00:32:07,342
in what might be called “closure,”
402
00:32:09,177 --> 00:32:11,600
because, from the earliest days,
403
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,560
from the fourth century,
fifth century, sixth century,
404
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,781
the missionaries of Christianity
had said, in effect, to the Jews,
405
00:32:20,856 --> 00:32:25,111
“You may not live among us as Jews.”
406
00:32:26,027 --> 00:32:28,576
The secular rulers who followed them,
407
00:32:29,072 --> 00:32:33,873
from the late Middle Ages,
had then decided,
408
00:32:33,952 --> 00:32:36,421
“You may not live among us,”
409
00:32:37,205 --> 00:32:39,754
and the Nazis finally decreed,
410
00:32:40,208 --> 00:32:41,926
“You may not live.”
411
00:32:44,087 --> 00:32:46,089
This means that the three steps were...
412
00:32:46,173 --> 00:32:48,767
The first one was conversion.
413
00:32:49,342 --> 00:32:52,596
- Conversion, followed by...
- The second one, ghettoization.
414
00:32:52,679 --> 00:32:54,147
- Expulsion.
- Or expulsion.
415
00:32:54,222 --> 00:32:55,815
Expulsion.
416
00:32:56,183 --> 00:32:59,062
And the third was the territorial solution,
417
00:33:00,228 --> 00:33:03,198
which was, of course, the solution carried out
418
00:33:03,273 --> 00:33:05,321
within the territories under German command,
419
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,653
excluding emigration:
420
00:33:07,903 --> 00:33:09,450
death,
421
00:33:10,906 --> 00:33:12,704
“final solution.”
422
00:33:13,283 --> 00:33:16,913
And the “final solution,” you see,
is really final,
423
00:33:17,621 --> 00:33:23,424
because people who are converted
can yet be, in secret, Jews,
424
00:33:23,835 --> 00:33:27,430
people who are expelled can yet return,
425
00:33:28,089 --> 00:33:32,595
but people who are dead will not reappear.
426
00:33:36,264 --> 00:33:42,897
In such a respect, in the last stage,
they were really pioneers and inventors?
427
00:33:43,939 --> 00:33:47,614
This was something unprecedented,
and this was something new.
428
00:33:55,408 --> 00:33:57,752
How can one figure...
429
00:33:57,827 --> 00:34:03,049
give some ideas
about the complete newness of this,
430
00:34:03,124 --> 00:34:06,549
because I think that it was new
for themselves too?
431
00:34:07,420 --> 00:34:08,888
Yes, it was new,
432
00:34:08,964 --> 00:34:16,473
and this... I think, for this reason
that one cannot find a specific document,
433
00:34:16,555 --> 00:34:20,355
a specific plan, outline or blueprint
434
00:34:20,976 --> 00:34:24,321
which states,
“Now, the Jews will be killed.”
435
00:34:25,146 --> 00:34:28,741
Everything is left to inference
from general words.
436
00:34:28,817 --> 00:34:29,818
Inference from...
437
00:34:29,901 --> 00:34:31,403
- General wording.
- Mm-hmm.
438
00:34:31,486 --> 00:34:34,911
The very wording “final solution”
or “total solution”
439
00:34:34,990 --> 00:34:37,209
or “territorial solution”
440
00:34:37,826 --> 00:34:41,876
leaves something to the bureaucrat
that he must infer.
441
00:34:41,955 --> 00:34:43,957
He cannot read that document.
442
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,795
One cannot even read
G6ring's famous letter to Heydrich,
443
00:34:47,877 --> 00:34:49,971
at the end of July 1941,
444
00:34:50,046 --> 00:34:53,892
charging him in two paragraphs
to proceed with the “final solution.”
445
00:34:53,967 --> 00:34:58,097
And taking that document aside,
everything is clarified?
446
00:34:58,179 --> 00:34:59,772
Far from it.
447
00:34:59,848 --> 00:35:01,225
- Far from it?
- Far from it.
448
00:35:01,308 --> 00:35:04,152
It was an authorization to invent.
449
00:35:04,352 --> 00:35:07,105
It was an authorization to begin something
450
00:35:07,188 --> 00:35:11,443
that was not as yet
capable of being put into words.
451
00:35:19,117 --> 00:35:21,711
I think it...
I think of it that way.
452
00:35:22,662 --> 00:35:25,962
It was a case for every agency,
as a matter of fact.
453
00:35:26,041 --> 00:35:27,884
Absolutely, for every agency.
454
00:35:27,959 --> 00:35:32,385
In every aspect of this operation,
invention was necessary.
455
00:35:33,590 --> 00:35:35,467
Certainly at this point,
456
00:35:35,842 --> 00:35:39,016
because every problem was unprecedented:
457
00:35:40,055 --> 00:35:43,480
not just how to kill the Jews,
but what to do with their property thereafter,
458
00:35:43,558 --> 00:35:45,026
and, not only that,
459
00:35:45,101 --> 00:35:49,982
but how to deal with the problem
of not letting the world know what had happened.
460
00:35:50,065 --> 00:35:53,660
All of these multitudes of problems were new.
461
00:37:10,729 --> 00:37:14,324
[Children Shouting, Distant]
462
00:37:26,494 --> 00:37:28,496
[Van Door Opens]
463
00:37:31,833 --> 00:37:33,756
[Van Door Closes]
464
00:37:52,562 --> 00:37:55,691
FRANZ SCHALLING
465
00:37:59,194 --> 00:38:04,371
[ Lanzmann, In German]
First, explain to me...
466
00:38:04,824 --> 00:38:09,250
how you came to Kulmhof, to Chelmno.
467
00:38:10,038 --> 00:38:12,132
You were at Lodz, right?
468
00:38:12,457 --> 00:38:14,300
- [ Schalling, In German] In Lodz, yes.
- Litzmannstadt?
469
00:38:14,375 --> 00:38:16,298
[ Saba/ling j
In L iizmannstadt'. J a .
470
00:38:16,711 --> 00:38:21,217
We were on permanent guard duty.
471
00:38:22,050 --> 00:38:24,678
Protecting military objectives: mills,
472
00:38:25,178 --> 00:38:28,808
the roads,
when Hitler went to East Prussia.
473
00:38:29,516 --> 00:38:32,395
It was dreary, and we were told,
474
00:38:32,727 --> 00:38:38,200
“We're looking for men who want
to break out of this routine.”
475
00:38:38,274 --> 00:38:40,447
So we volunteered.
476
00:38:42,070 --> 00:38:44,789
We were issued winter uniforms,
477
00:38:45,240 --> 00:38:49,666
overcoats, fur hats, fur-lined boots,
478
00:38:50,537 --> 00:38:55,088
and 2 or 3 days later
we were told, “We're off!”
479
00:38:56,084 --> 00:38:59,679
We were put aboard 2 or 3 trucks...
I don't know...
480
00:38:59,754 --> 00:39:04,009
They had benches,
481
00:39:04,676 --> 00:39:06,519
and we rode and rode.
482
00:39:06,761 --> 00:39:09,264
Finally we arrived.
483
00:39:11,099 --> 00:39:14,569
The place was crawling
with SS men and police.
484
00:39:14,644 --> 00:39:18,865
Our first question was, “What goes on here?”
- [ Lanzmann] Ja.
485
00:39:18,940 --> 00:39:21,910
[ Schalling ]
They said, “You?! find out!”
486
00:39:21,985 --> 00:39:24,989
- You?! find out?
- You'll find out.
487
00:39:25,071 --> 00:39:26,994
- [ Lanzmann ] Ja.
- Nicht?
488
00:39:27,282 --> 00:39:30,627
- You weren't in the SS, you were...
- Police.
489
00:39:30,702 --> 00:39:34,377
- Which police?
- Security guards.
490
00:39:35,164 --> 00:39:39,419
We were ordered
to report to the Deutsche Haus,
491
00:39:39,502 --> 00:39:43,552
the only big stone building
in the village.
492
00:39:43,631 --> 00:39:44,678
Ja.
493
00:39:44,757 --> 00:39:46,725
We were taken into it.
494
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,104
An SS man immediately told us,
495
00:39:50,179 --> 00:39:53,274
“This is a top secret mission!”
496
00:39:53,474 --> 00:39:55,852
- Secret?
- “A top secret mission.”
497
00:39:55,935 --> 00:39:57,733
- Ja.
- “Sign this!”
498
00:39:57,812 --> 00:39:59,814
We each had to sign.
499
00:39:59,898 --> 00:40:03,698
There was a form ready for each of us.
500
00:40:06,654 --> 00:40:08,952
What did it say?
501
00:40:09,032 --> 00:40:12,252
It was a pledge of secrecy.
502
00:40:12,327 --> 00:40:15,080
We never even got to read it through.
503
00:40:15,163 --> 00:40:17,461
You had to take an oath?
504
00:40:17,540 --> 00:40:20,589
- No, just sign...
- Ja.
505
00:40:20,668 --> 00:40:24,263
Promising to shut up
about whatever we'd see.
506
00:40:24,339 --> 00:40:25,966
- Shut up?
- Not say a word.
507
00:40:26,049 --> 00:40:27,551
Ja.
508
00:40:27,634 --> 00:40:31,764
After we'd signed, we were told,
509
00:40:32,347 --> 00:40:34,145
“Final solution of the Jewish question.”
510
00:40:34,223 --> 00:40:38,228
We didn't understand what that meant.
511
00:40:38,311 --> 00:40:40,109
So someone said...
512
00:40:40,188 --> 00:40:43,317
He told us what was going
to happen there.
513
00:40:43,399 --> 00:40:47,245
Someone said, “the final solution
of the Jewish question.”
514
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:51,666
You'd be assigned to the “final solution”?
515
00:40:51,741 --> 00:40:54,540
Yes, but what did that mean?
516
00:40:54,619 --> 00:40:56,713
We'd never heard that before.
517
00:40:56,913 --> 00:40:58,961
So it was explained to us.
518
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,259
Just when was this?
519
00:41:01,334 --> 00:41:03,883
Let's see... when was it...?
520
00:41:05,213 --> 00:41:08,217
In the winter of 1941-42.
521
00:41:14,597 --> 00:41:17,601
Then we were assigned to our stations.
522
00:41:17,850 --> 00:41:21,480
Our guard post was
at the side of the road.
523
00:41:21,854 --> 00:41:24,607
A sentry box in front of the castle.
524
00:41:25,066 --> 00:41:28,741
[ Lanzmann ]
So you were in the “castle detail”?
525
00:41:31,572 --> 00:41:33,449
[ Schalling ]
That's right.
526
00:41:34,617 --> 00:41:38,588
Can you describe what you saw?
527
00:41:40,039 --> 00:41:43,213
We could see.
We were at the gatehouse.
528
00:41:43,292 --> 00:41:44,088
Ja?
529
00:41:44,168 --> 00:41:48,799
When the Jews arrived,
the way they looked:
530
00:41:48,881 --> 00:41:53,387
half-frozen, starved, dirty,
already half-dead.
531
00:41:53,469 --> 00:41:56,313
Old people, children.
532
00:41:57,432 --> 00:42:02,814
Think of it! The long trip here
standing in a truck, packed in!
533
00:42:04,439 --> 00:42:07,409
Who knows if they knew
what was in store!
534
00:42:08,151 --> 00:42:10,574
They didn't trust anyone,
that's for sure.
535
00:42:10,653 --> 00:42:13,873
After months in the ghetto,
you can imagine!
536
00:42:15,283 --> 00:42:16,626
Ja?
537
00:42:16,826 --> 00:42:19,579
I heard an SS man shout at them,
538
00:42:19,787 --> 00:42:22,336
“You're going to be deloused
539
00:42:23,124 --> 00:42:25,468
and have a bath.
540
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:27,962
You're going to work here.”
541
00:42:28,463 --> 00:42:31,763
The Jews consented.
542
00:42:31,841 --> 00:42:35,141
They said,
“Yes, that's what we want to do.”
543
00:42:36,804 --> 00:42:39,227
Was the castle big?
544
00:42:40,683 --> 00:42:43,653
Pretty big, with huge front steps.
545
00:42:43,728 --> 00:42:48,575
The SS man stood at the top of the steps.
546
00:42:49,984 --> 00:42:52,453
Then what happened?
547
00:42:52,820 --> 00:42:57,576
They were hustled into
2 or 3 big rooms on the first floor.
548
00:42:58,201 --> 00:43:01,580
They had to undress, give up everything:
549
00:43:01,662 --> 00:43:03,790
rings, gold, everything.
550
00:43:03,873 --> 00:43:05,500
Ja.
551
00:43:07,168 --> 00:43:10,547
How long did the Jews stay there?
552
00:43:11,005 --> 00:43:13,679
- I ong enough to undress.
- J a.
553
00:43:13,883 --> 00:43:16,306
Then, stark naked,
554
00:43:16,385 --> 00:43:20,606
they had to run down more steps
555
00:43:21,682 --> 00:43:23,776
to an underground corridor
556
00:43:24,852 --> 00:43:28,527
that led back up to the ramp,
where the gas van awaited them.
557
00:43:30,650 --> 00:43:35,076
Did the Jews enter the van willingly?
558
00:43:36,697 --> 00:43:39,075
No, they were beaten.
559
00:43:39,575 --> 00:43:43,625
Blows fell everywhere,
and the Jews understood.
560
00:43:43,704 --> 00:43:45,251
They screamed.
561
00:43:45,581 --> 00:43:47,458
It was frightful!
562
00:43:48,209 --> 00:43:49,961
Frightful!
563
00:43:52,046 --> 00:43:55,016
I know, because
we went down to the cellar
564
00:43:55,091 --> 00:43:57,344
when they were all in the van.
565
00:43:57,426 --> 00:44:03,308
We opened the cells of the work detail,
566
00:44:03,391 --> 00:44:05,735
the Jewish workers
567
00:44:05,810 --> 00:44:10,407
who collected the things thrown out
of the 1st-floor window into there.
568
00:44:12,567 --> 00:44:14,990
[ Lanzmann ]
Describe the gas vans.
569
00:44:16,154 --> 00:44:18,327
[ Schalling ]
Like moving vans.
570
00:44:18,698 --> 00:44:20,621
Very big?
571
00:44:20,700 --> 00:44:23,123
They stretched, say,
572
00:44:23,411 --> 00:44:26,005
from here to the window.
573
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,174
Just big trucks,
574
00:44:28,249 --> 00:44:31,594
like moving vans, with 2 rear doors.
575
00:44:34,422 --> 00:44:36,971
What system was used?
576
00:44:37,049 --> 00:44:41,099
How did they kill them?
577
00:44:41,429 --> 00:44:44,603
- With exhaust fumes.
- Exhaust fumes?
578
00:44:45,099 --> 00:44:50,230
It went like this:
A Pole yelled, “Gas!”
579
00:44:50,313 --> 00:44:55,570
Then the driver got under the van
to hook up the pipe
580
00:44:56,611 --> 00:45:01,708
that fed the gas into the van.
581
00:45:01,782 --> 00:45:04,911
- Yes, but how?
- From the motor.
582
00:45:04,994 --> 00:45:07,372
Yes, but through what?
583
00:45:07,455 --> 00:45:09,753
A pipe... a tube.
584
00:45:09,832 --> 00:45:12,676
He fiddled around under the truck.
585
00:45:12,752 --> 00:45:14,971
I'm not sure how.
586
00:45:16,047 --> 00:45:19,017
It was just exhaust gas?
587
00:45:20,009 --> 00:45:21,727
That's all.
588
00:45:23,429 --> 00:45:24,681
[ Lanzmann ]
Ja.
589
00:45:25,473 --> 00:45:27,817
Who were the drivers?
590
00:45:29,477 --> 00:45:31,195
- SS men.
- [ Repeats Phrase]
591
00:45:31,270 --> 00:45:34,444
All those men were SS.
592
00:45:34,523 --> 00:45:37,618
Were there many of these drivers?
593
00:45:37,818 --> 00:45:39,365
I don't know.
594
00:45:39,445 --> 00:45:42,073
Were there 2, 3, 5, 10?
595
00:45:42,531 --> 00:45:46,001
Not that many.
2 or 3, that's all.
596
00:45:46,077 --> 00:45:48,500
I think there were 2 vans,
597
00:45:49,121 --> 00:45:52,421
one big, one smaller.
598
00:45:52,500 --> 00:45:54,002
Ja?
599
00:45:54,502 --> 00:45:59,178
Did the driver sit
in the cabin of the van?
600
00:45:59,674 --> 00:46:01,597
- Mrs. Uwe?
- [Woman ] No.
601
00:46:02,677 --> 00:46:07,183
He climbed into the cabin
after the doors were closed
602
00:46:07,848 --> 00:46:10,146
and started the motor.
603
00:46:10,768 --> 00:46:14,864
Did he race the motor?
604
00:46:16,315 --> 00:46:19,034
I don't know.
605
00:46:19,902 --> 00:46:24,578
Could you hear the sound of the motor?
606
00:46:25,533 --> 00:46:29,629
Yes, from the gate
we could hear it turn over.
607
00:46:29,704 --> 00:46:33,754
Was it a loud noise?
608
00:46:33,833 --> 00:46:37,883
The noise of a truck engine.
609
00:46:37,962 --> 00:46:39,384
Me.
610
00:46:39,588 --> 00:46:45,436
The van was stationary
while the motor ran?
611
00:46:46,595 --> 00:46:48,563
That's right.
612
00:46:49,223 --> 00:46:50,019
Me.
613
00:46:50,099 --> 00:46:52,898
Then it started moving.
614
00:46:53,352 --> 00:46:57,482
We opened the gate,
and it headed for the woods.
615
00:46:58,024 --> 00:47:00,618
Were the people already dead?
616
00:47:00,693 --> 00:47:02,491
I don't know.
617
00:47:02,778 --> 00:47:05,372
It was quiet. No more screams.
618
00:47:05,656 --> 00:47:06,657
[ Lanzmann ]
No screams.
619
00:47:06,741 --> 00:47:09,915
You couldn't hear anything
as they drove by.
620
00:47:17,918 --> 00:47:23,550
[ Podchlebnik Speaking Yiddish]
621
00:47:23,632 --> 00:47:26,010
[ Interpreter
He recalls: It was 1941,
622
00:47:26,093 --> 00:47:28,312
2 days before the new year.
623
00:47:28,596 --> 00:47:31,099
[ Podchlebnik Continues]
624
00:47:31,599 --> 00:47:34,193
They were routed out at night...
625
00:47:34,769 --> 00:47:37,318
[ Podchlebnik Continues]
626
00:47:37,396 --> 00:47:40,775
and in the morning they reached Chelmno.
627
00:47:46,113 --> 00:47:49,287
- [ Podchlebnik Continues]
- There was a castle there.
628
00:47:56,332 --> 00:47:57,834
[ Podchlebnik Continues]
629
00:47:57,917 --> 00:48:00,170
When he entered the castle courtyard...
630
00:48:00,252 --> 00:48:02,175
[ Podchlebnik Continues]
631
00:48:02,254 --> 00:48:04,882
he knew something awful was going on.
632
00:48:04,965 --> 00:48:08,560
- [ Podchlebnik Continues]
- He already understood.
633
00:48:08,928 --> 00:48:10,976
THE SITE OF THE CASTLE
634
00:48:12,223 --> 00:48:15,227
[ Podchlebnik Continues]
635
00:48:15,309 --> 00:48:18,358
They saw clothes and shoes...
636
00:48:18,437 --> 00:48:22,487
- [ Podchlebnik Continues]
- scattered in the courtyard.
637
00:48:22,566 --> 00:48:27,413
[ Podchlebnik Continues]
638
00:48:27,488 --> 00:48:30,583
Yet they were alone there.
639
00:48:30,991 --> 00:48:33,289
He knew his parents
had been through there...
640
00:48:33,369 --> 00:48:37,920
- [ Podchlebnik Continues]
- and there wasn't a Jew left.
641
00:48:41,419 --> 00:48:43,421
[ Podchlebnik Continues]
642
00:48:43,504 --> 00:48:46,223
They were taken down into a cellar.
643
00:48:46,632 --> 00:48:50,762
[ Podchlebnik Continues]
644
00:48:50,845 --> 00:48:54,975
On a wall was written,
“No one leaves here alive.”
645
00:48:55,057 --> 00:48:58,152
- [ Podchlebnik Continues]
- Graffiti in Yiddish.
646
00:48:58,227 --> 00:49:01,527
- [ Podchlebnik Continues]
- There were lots of names.
647
00:49:01,605 --> 00:49:03,778
[ Podchlebnik Continues]
648
00:49:03,858 --> 00:49:07,613
He thinks it was the Jews
from villages around Chelmno
649
00:49:07,695 --> 00:49:11,370
who had come before him,
who had written their names.
650
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:23,089
- [ Podchlebnik Continues]
- A few days after New Year's...
651
00:49:23,169 --> 00:49:25,968
[ Podchlebnik Continues]
652
00:49:26,046 --> 00:49:29,141
they heard people arrive
in a truck one morning.
653
00:49:29,216 --> 00:49:30,809
[ Podchlebnik Continues]
654
00:49:30,885 --> 00:49:33,104
The people were taken
out of the truck...
655
00:49:33,179 --> 00:49:35,477
[ Podchlebnik Continues]
656
00:49:35,556 --> 00:49:40,653
- and up to the first floor of the castle.
- [ Podchlebnik Continues]
657
00:49:40,728 --> 00:49:44,904
The Germans lied,
saying they were to be deloused.
658
00:49:47,318 --> 00:49:50,868
[ Podchlebnik Continues]
659
00:49:50,946 --> 00:49:54,120
They were chased down the other side...
660
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:55,998
[ Podchlebnik Continues]
661
00:49:56,076 --> 00:49:57,999
where a van was waiting.
662
00:49:59,205 --> 00:50:04,211
[ Podchlebnik Continues]
663
00:50:04,293 --> 00:50:09,470
The Germans pushed
and beat them with their weapons
664
00:50:09,757 --> 00:50:12,476
to hustle them into the trucks faster.
665
00:50:24,063 --> 00:50:30,161
[ Podchlebnik Continues]
666
00:50:30,236 --> 00:50:34,036
He heard people praying, “Shma Israel”...
667
00:50:34,323 --> 00:50:37,122
[ Podchlebnik Continues]
668
00:50:37,201 --> 00:50:40,125
and he heard
the van's rear doors being shut.
669
00:50:40,454 --> 00:50:45,051
[ Podchlebnik Continues]
670
00:50:45,125 --> 00:50:47,298
Their screams were heard,
671
00:50:47,503 --> 00:50:50,507
becoming fainter and fainter...
672
00:50:50,589 --> 00:50:53,308
[ Podchlebnik Continues]
673
00:50:53,384 --> 00:50:57,355
and when there was total silence,
674
00:50:57,596 --> 00:50:59,690
the van left.
675
00:51:05,688 --> 00:51:13,197
[ Podchlebnik Continues]
676
00:51:13,279 --> 00:51:18,331
He and the 4 others
were brought out of the cellar.
677
00:51:18,409 --> 00:51:20,002
They went upstairs...
678
00:51:20,077 --> 00:51:29,589
[ Podchlebnik Continues]
679
00:51:29,670 --> 00:51:33,425
and gathered up
the clothes remaining
680
00:51:33,716 --> 00:51:36,219
outside the supposed baths.
681
00:51:45,686 --> 00:51:48,030
[Lanzmann, In French]
Did he understand then how they'd died?
682
00:51:48,105 --> 00:51:51,029
[ Interpreter
683
00:51:52,026 --> 00:51:54,199
MICHAEL PODCHLEBNIK,
684
00:51:54,528 --> 00:51:59,500
the survivor of the 1st period
of extermination at Chelmno
685
00:51:59,783 --> 00:52:02,081
(the castle period)
686
00:52:05,372 --> 00:52:10,299
Yes, first because
there had been rumors of it.
687
00:52:10,377 --> 00:52:13,551
And when he went out,
he saw the sealed vans,
688
00:52:14,715 --> 00:52:16,012
so he knew.
689
00:52:16,091 --> 00:52:21,848
[ Lanzmann ] He understood that people
were gassed in the vans?
690
00:52:22,056 --> 00:52:25,686
[ Interpreter
691
00:52:36,195 --> 00:52:39,165
Yes, because he'd heard the screams
692
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:42,243
and heard how they weakened,
693
00:52:43,243 --> 00:52:47,669
and later the vans
were taken into the woods.
694
00:52:47,956 --> 00:52:50,004
[ Lanzmann ]
What were the vans like?
695
00:52:50,084 --> 00:52:53,714
[ Interpreter
696
00:52:54,755 --> 00:52:56,507
[ Interpreter
697
00:52:57,132 --> 00:52:58,725
[ Interpreter
698
00:53:18,153 --> 00:53:23,159
Like the ones
that deliver cigarettes here.
699
00:53:23,659 --> 00:53:27,289
They were enclosed,
with double-leaf rear doors.
700
00:53:27,371 --> 00:53:29,214
[ Lanzmann ]
What color?
701
00:53:30,708 --> 00:53:32,426
[ Interpreter
702
00:53:35,087 --> 00:53:39,137
The color the Germans used,
green, ordinary.
703
00:53:42,052 --> 00:53:43,645
MARTHA MICHELSOHN
704
00:53:43,846 --> 00:53:49,853
[ Lanzmann, In German ] How many German
families were there in Kulmhof (Chelmno)?
705
00:53:49,935 --> 00:53:53,155
[ In German]
10 or 11, I'd say.
706
00:53:55,232 --> 00:53:59,738
Germans from Volhynia
and 2 families from the Reich,
707
00:53:59,820 --> 00:54:02,323
the Bauers and us.
708
00:54:03,198 --> 00:54:04,825
- And you?
- Us, the Michelsohns.
709
00:54:04,908 --> 00:54:06,376
Ja.
710
00:54:06,452 --> 00:54:10,502
How did you wind up in Kulmhof?
711
00:54:13,792 --> 00:54:15,590
I was born in Laage,
712
00:54:15,669 --> 00:54:19,424
and I was sent to Kulmhof.
713
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:25,267
They were looking for volunteer settlers,
714
00:54:25,679 --> 00:54:27,477
and I signed up.
715
00:54:27,556 --> 00:54:29,729
That's how I got there.
716
00:54:29,975 --> 00:54:32,524
First in WarthbriJcken (Kolo),
717
00:54:32,853 --> 00:54:36,778
then Chelmno... Kulmhof.
718
00:54:37,065 --> 00:54:39,284
Directly from Laage?
719
00:54:39,359 --> 00:54:45,958
- No, I left from Munster.
- Ja?
720
00:54:46,033 --> 00:54:49,833
- Did you opt to go to Kulmhof?
- Ja.
721
00:54:49,912 --> 00:54:52,791
No, I asked for Wartheland.
722
00:54:52,873 --> 00:54:54,125
Why?
723
00:54:54,208 --> 00:54:55,676
[ Murmurs In German]
724
00:54:57,252 --> 00:54:59,550
A pioneering spirit.
725
00:55:00,964 --> 00:55:04,969
- You were young!
- Oh, yes, I was young.
726
00:55:05,052 --> 00:55:08,556
- You wanted to be useful?
- Yes.
727
00:55:09,848 --> 00:55:15,400
What was your first impression
of Wartheland?
728
00:55:16,063 --> 00:55:19,442
It was primitive. Super-primitive.
729
00:55:19,525 --> 00:55:21,152
Meaning...?
730
00:55:21,235 --> 00:55:23,704
- Even worse...
- [ Repeats Phrase]
731
00:55:23,779 --> 00:55:25,702
Worse than primitive.
732
00:55:25,781 --> 00:55:28,910
Difficult to understand, right?
733
00:55:28,992 --> 00:55:30,369
Ja.
734
00:55:31,620 --> 00:55:32,837
But why.,,?
735
00:55:32,913 --> 00:55:38,090
The sanitary facilities were disastrous.
736
00:55:38,377 --> 00:55:42,723
The only toilet was
in WarthbriJcken, in the town.
737
00:55:42,798 --> 00:55:44,471
You had to go there.
738
00:55:44,550 --> 00:55:49,021
The rest was a disaster.
739
00:55:49,638 --> 00:55:54,644
- Why a disaster?
- There were no toilets at all!
740
00:55:56,436 --> 00:55:57,653
Ja?
741
00:55:58,438 --> 00:56:01,442
There were privies.
742
00:56:02,276 --> 00:56:04,654
I can't tell you
743
00:56:05,279 --> 00:56:08,328
how primitive it was.
744
00:56:10,242 --> 00:56:11,368
Astonishing!
745
00:56:11,451 --> 00:56:16,378
Why did you choose
such a primitive place?
746
00:56:16,456 --> 00:56:20,051
I was young, you know.
747
00:56:20,127 --> 00:56:22,971
You can't imagine such places exist.
748
00:56:23,046 --> 00:56:26,050
You don't believe it.
But that's how it was.
749
00:56:30,971 --> 00:56:33,144
[ Michelsohn ]
This was the whole village.
750
00:56:33,974 --> 00:56:36,352
A very small village,
751
00:56:38,770 --> 00:56:40,613
straggling along the road.
752
00:56:40,689 --> 00:56:43,989
Just a few houses.
753
00:56:45,527 --> 00:56:49,577
There was the church, the castle,
754
00:56:49,656 --> 00:56:52,000
a store, I00,
755
00:56:52,326 --> 00:56:55,671
the administrative building
and the school.
756
00:56:56,872 --> 00:56:59,625
The castle was next to the church,
757
00:56:59,708 --> 00:57:02,882
with a high board fence around both.
758
00:57:02,961 --> 00:57:04,508
[ I anzmann j
J a .
759
00:57:07,841 --> 00:57:11,846
How far was your house from the church?
760
00:57:12,554 --> 00:57:16,354
It was just opposite... 150 feet.
761
00:57:17,351 --> 00:57:20,946
Mrs. Michelsohn
was the Nazi teacher's wife
762
00:57:23,523 --> 00:57:25,901
Did you see the gas vans?
763
00:57:25,984 --> 00:57:27,110
No...
764
00:57:27,611 --> 00:57:30,990
Yes, from the outside.
They shuttled back and forth.
765
00:57:31,073 --> 00:57:35,374
I never looked inside...
I didn't see Jews in them.
766
00:57:37,037 --> 00:57:39,165
I only saw things from outside,
767
00:57:39,247 --> 00:57:42,717
the Jews' arrival, their disposition,
768
00:57:43,251 --> 00:57:46,380
how they were loaded aboard.
769
00:57:49,883 --> 00:57:51,851
Since World War I,
770
00:57:51,927 --> 00:57:55,648
the castle had been in ruins.
771
00:57:57,015 --> 00:58:00,235
Only part of it could still be used.
772
00:58:01,228 --> 00:58:06,280
That's where the Jews were taken.
773
00:58:12,406 --> 00:58:16,456
This ruined castle was used...
774
00:58:16,535 --> 00:58:20,540
For housing and delousing
the Poles, and so on.
775
00:58:20,622 --> 00:58:22,124
- The Jews!
- Yes, the Jews.
776
00:58:22,207 --> 00:58:23,754
- Ja.
- [German ]
777
00:58:23,834 --> 00:58:28,715
Why do you call them “Poles”
and not “Jews”?
778
00:58:28,797 --> 00:58:31,892
- Sometimes, I get them mixed up.
- Ja.
779
00:58:32,259 --> 00:58:34,762
There's a difference
between Poles and Jews?
780
00:58:34,845 --> 00:58:37,189
Q“, yes!
781
00:58:37,264 --> 00:58:39,437
What difference?
782
00:58:40,809 --> 00:58:43,187
[Laugh$I
783
00:58:43,270 --> 00:58:46,490
The Poles weren't exterminated,
784
00:58:46,940 --> 00:58:49,034
and the Jews were.
785
00:58:49,109 --> 00:58:52,955
That's the difference.
An external difference, right?
786
00:58:53,613 --> 00:58:55,536
And the inner difference?
787
00:58:55,615 --> 00:58:57,868
I can't assess that.
788
00:58:57,951 --> 00:59:03,924
I don't know enough
about psychology and anthropology.
789
00:59:05,083 --> 00:59:08,178
The difference between
the Poles and the Jews?
790
00:59:08,253 --> 00:59:11,132
Anyway, they couldn't stand each other.
791
00:59:13,675 --> 00:59:16,019
[ In French]
On January 19, 1942,
792
00:59:16,094 --> 00:59:19,223
the rabbi of Grabow, Jacob Schulmann,
793
00:59:19,306 --> 00:59:23,152
wrote the following letter
to his friends in Lodz:
794
00:59:24,269 --> 00:59:25,737
“My very dear friends,
795
00:59:25,812 --> 00:59:30,739
I didn't write sooner:
I wasn't sure of what I'd heard.
796
00:59:30,984 --> 00:59:35,034
Alas, to our great grief,
we now know all.
797
00:59:35,655 --> 00:59:39,831
I've spoken to an eyewitness
who managed to escape.
798
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:42,003
He told me everything.
799
00:59:42,079 --> 00:59:46,300
They're exterminated
in Chelmno, near Dombie,
800
00:59:46,500 --> 00:59:49,504
and they're all buried
in the nearby Rzeszow forest.
801
00:59:50,045 --> 00:59:54,846
The Jews are killed in 2 ways:
by shooting or gas.
802
00:59:55,175 --> 00:59:59,897
It's just happened
to thousands of Lodz Jews.
803
01:00:01,223 --> 01:00:05,399
Do not think that
this is being written by a madman.
804
01:00:05,477 --> 01:00:09,277
Alas, it is the tragic, horrible truth.
805
01:00:10,232 --> 01:00:14,783
Horror, horror.
Man, shed thy clothes,
806
01:00:14,861 --> 01:00:17,865
cover thy head with ashes,
run in the streets
807
01:00:18,156 --> 01:00:20,284
and dance in thy madness.
808
01:00:21,827 --> 01:00:25,252
I am so weary that my pen
can no longer write.
809
01:00:25,705 --> 01:00:29,209
Creator of the universe, help us!”
810
01:00:30,252 --> 01:00:34,302
The creator did not help
the Jews of Grabow.
811
01:00:34,673 --> 01:00:39,304
With their rabbi,
they all died in the gas van at Chelmno
812
01:00:39,386 --> 01:00:41,309
a few weeks later.
813
01:00:41,388 --> 01:00:45,438
Chelmno is only 12 miles from Grabow.
814
01:01:21,970 --> 01:01:24,564
[ Rooster Crowing ]
815
01:01:32,022 --> 01:01:34,901
[ Lanzmann, In French]
Were there a lot of Jews here in Grabow?
816
01:01:34,983 --> 01:01:36,826
[ Interpreter
817
01:01:36,902 --> 01:01:39,906
- [ Woman Replies In Polish]
- A lot, quite a few.
818
01:01:39,988 --> 01:01:44,368
[ Woman Continues]
819
01:01:44,451 --> 01:01:46,044
They were sent to Chelmno.
820
01:01:46,119 --> 01:01:49,168
[ Lanzmann ]
Has she always lived near the synagogue?
821
01:01:49,539 --> 01:01:52,338
[ Interpreter
822
01:01:52,417 --> 01:01:57,298
[Women Chattering In Polish]
823
01:02:00,300 --> 01:02:03,554
- [Lanzmann] Yes.
- The Polish word is “Buzinica,” not synagogue.
824
01:02:03,637 --> 01:02:07,016
[Chattering Continues]
825
01:02:13,688 --> 01:02:16,612
She says it's now
a furniture warehouse
826
01:02:16,691 --> 01:02:21,162
but they didn't harm it
from a religious point of view.
827
01:02:21,238 --> 01:02:24,742
It hasn't been... desecrated.
828
01:02:25,992 --> 01:02:28,336
Does she remember the rabbi
at the synagogue?
829
01:02:28,411 --> 01:02:31,164
[ Interpreter
830
01:02:31,998 --> 01:02:34,046
[ Woman Replies ]
831
01:02:34,918 --> 01:02:37,592
THE SYNAGOGUE IN GRABOW
832
01:02:37,671 --> 01:02:42,302
She says she's 80 now,
and her memory isn't too good,
833
01:02:42,384 --> 01:02:45,228
and the Jews have been gone
for 40 years.
834
01:03:04,072 --> 01:03:07,246
[ In French] Barbara, tell this couple
they live in a lovely house.
835
01:03:07,325 --> 01:03:10,955
[Speaking Polish]
836
01:03:11,037 --> 01:03:14,041
Do they agree?
Do they think it's a lovely house?
837
01:03:17,043 --> 01:03:18,386
Oui.
838
01:03:19,004 --> 01:03:20,381
Oui.
839
01:03:23,300 --> 01:03:24,301
[Laughs]
840
01:03:24,384 --> 01:03:28,639
Tell me about the decoration
of this house, the doors,
841
01:03:28,722 --> 01:03:30,474
what's it mean?
842
01:03:37,355 --> 01:03:40,154
People used to do carvings like that.
843
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:42,448
Did they decorate it that way?
844
01:03:44,112 --> 01:03:45,284
Non.
845
01:03:45,363 --> 01:03:48,412
- No, it was the Jews again.
- The Jews did it!
846
01:03:49,534 --> 01:03:52,378
- The door's a good century old.
- [ Repeats Phrase]
847
01:03:52,454 --> 01:03:54,456
- Oui.
- Did Jews own this house?
848
01:03:57,751 --> 01:03:59,674
Yes, all these houses.
849
01:03:59,753 --> 01:04:03,007
All these houses
on the square were Jewish?
850
01:04:06,926 --> 01:04:12,433
Jews lived in all the ones in front,
on the street.
851
01:04:12,515 --> 01:04:15,314
Oui.
Where did the Poles live?
852
01:04:18,521 --> 01:04:21,365
In the courtyards,
where the privies were.
853
01:04:21,441 --> 01:04:23,944
[ Repeats Phrase]
854
01:04:24,986 --> 01:04:28,035
There used to be a store here.
855
01:04:28,114 --> 01:04:29,366
What kind?
856
01:04:30,784 --> 01:04:32,707
A food store.
857
01:04:32,786 --> 01:04:34,709
Owned by Jews?
858
01:04:34,788 --> 01:04:35,835
Yes.
859
01:04:36,331 --> 01:04:39,380
So the Jews lived in the front,
860
01:04:39,459 --> 01:04:42,963
and the Poles in the courtyard
with the privies.
861
01:04:50,220 --> 01:04:51,472
Oui.
862
01:04:52,472 --> 01:04:54,816
How long have these two lived here?
863
01:04:54,891 --> 01:04:57,144
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
864
01:04:57,811 --> 01:05:01,941
[Wife Replies]
865
01:05:02,023 --> 01:05:04,321
15 years.
866
01:05:04,651 --> 01:05:07,325
- Where'd they live before?
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
867
01:05:07,779 --> 01:05:09,281
[Wife Replies]
868
01:05:09,364 --> 01:05:11,412
In a courtyard across the square.
869
01:05:11,491 --> 01:05:13,368
[ Lanzmann ]
They've gotten rich.
870
01:05:13,451 --> 01:05:15,044
- Them?
- Yes.
871
01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:16,713
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
- [Wife Replies]
872
01:05:16,788 --> 01:05:18,415
- Yes.
- [ Laughing Together]
873
01:05:18,498 --> 01:05:20,546
[ Lanzmann ]
How did they get rich?
874
01:05:20,625 --> 01:05:23,549
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
875
01:05:24,504 --> 01:05:26,097
They worked.
876
01:05:26,339 --> 01:05:28,467
- How old is the gentleman?
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
877
01:05:29,426 --> 01:05:31,724
- [ Husband Replies]
- He's 70.
878
01:05:31,803 --> 01:05:36,058
- He looks young and healthy.
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
879
01:05:37,684 --> 01:05:38,776
[ Barbara Laughs]
880
01:05:38,852 --> 01:05:41,526
Do they remember the Jews of Grabow?
881
01:05:41,604 --> 01:05:43,948
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
- [ Husband Replies]
882
01:05:44,023 --> 01:05:45,240
Yes.
883
01:05:45,316 --> 01:05:47,364
And when they were deported, too.
884
01:05:47,485 --> 01:05:51,080
- They recall the deportation of the Grabow Jews?
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
885
01:05:52,073 --> 01:05:53,950
He says he speaks “Jew” well.
886
01:05:54,033 --> 01:05:56,286
- He speaks “Jew”?
- Oui.
887
01:05:58,204 --> 01:06:01,048
As a kid he played with Jews
so he speaks “Jew.”
888
01:06:01,124 --> 01:06:05,880
[ Husband Continues]
889
01:06:12,886 --> 01:06:14,638
[ Barbara ]
Mm-hmm.
890
01:06:14,721 --> 01:06:19,477
First, they grouped them there,
where that restaurant is,
891
01:06:19,559 --> 01:06:22,278
or in this square,
and took their gold.
892
01:06:22,353 --> 01:06:23,855
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
893
01:06:28,401 --> 01:06:30,028
[ Barbara ]
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
894
01:06:33,114 --> 01:06:34,616
[ Barbara ]
Mm-hmm.
895
01:06:38,578 --> 01:06:42,299
An elder among the Jews
collected the gold
896
01:06:42,373 --> 01:06:45,172
and turned it over to the police.
897
01:06:45,502 --> 01:06:50,258
That done, the Jews were put
in the Catholic church.
898
01:06:50,340 --> 01:06:53,594
- A lot of gold?
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
899
01:06:55,428 --> 01:06:57,977
Yes, the Jews had gold...
900
01:06:58,431 --> 01:07:01,480
[Wife Replies]
901
01:07:01,559 --> 01:07:04,358
And some handsome candelabras.
902
01:07:15,031 --> 01:07:19,207
[ Lanzmann, In French] Did the Poles know
the Jews would be killed at Chelmno?
903
01:07:19,285 --> 01:07:25,463
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
904
01:07:26,501 --> 01:07:28,128
Yes, they knew.
905
01:07:29,796 --> 01:07:33,266
- The Jews knew it, too.
- [ Lanzmann Repeats Phrase]
906
01:07:33,341 --> 01:07:36,345
[ Lanzmann ] Did the Jews try to do
something about it,
907
01:07:36,427 --> 01:07:38,896
to rebel, to escape?
908
01:07:39,597 --> 01:07:48,824
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
- [ Motorcycle Motor Gunning ]
909
01:07:49,649 --> 01:07:51,151
[ Barbara ]
Tak.
910
01:07:53,444 --> 01:07:54,912
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
911
01:07:54,988 --> 01:07:56,990
The young tried to run away.
912
01:08:00,159 --> 01:08:02,582
But the Germans caught them
913
01:08:02,662 --> 01:08:06,292
and maybe killed them
even more savagely.
914
01:08:06,374 --> 01:08:15,761
[ Man Continues]
915
01:08:15,842 --> 01:08:20,598
In every town and village,
2 or 3 streets were closed,
916
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:22,353
and the Jews were kept under guard.
917
01:08:22,432 --> 01:08:24,355
They couldn't leave there.
918
01:08:25,059 --> 01:08:30,737
[ Man Continues]
919
01:08:30,815 --> 01:08:34,615
Then they were locked
in the Polish church here in Grabow
920
01:08:34,694 --> 01:08:37,197
and later taken to Chelmno.
921
01:08:39,073 --> 01:08:42,748
BACKGROUND, THE SYNAGOGUE
922
01:08:52,045 --> 01:08:54,798
[ People Chattering In Polish]
923
01:09:05,725 --> 01:09:08,148
[Wife Speaking Polish]
924
01:09:08,227 --> 01:09:11,982
The Germans threw children
as small as these...
925
01:09:12,065 --> 01:09:14,739
- Oui?
- into the trucks by the legs.
926
01:09:14,942 --> 01:09:16,740
She saw that?
927
01:09:17,570 --> 01:09:19,743
- Old folks too.
- Threw kids into the trucks.
928
01:09:19,822 --> 01:09:21,165
Oui.
929
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:24,414
The Poles knew the Jews
would be gassed in Chelmno?
930
01:09:24,994 --> 01:09:26,667
Did this gentleman know?
931
01:09:29,582 --> 01:09:31,380
- [ L anzmann j Ou/ f?
- Oui.
932
01:09:36,381 --> 01:09:39,476
[ Lanzmann ]
Does he recall the Jews' deportation from Grabow?
933
01:09:39,550 --> 01:09:42,349
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
- [ Man Replies In Polish]
934
01:09:42,428 --> 01:09:43,520
Oui.
935
01:09:43,596 --> 01:09:46,349
[ Man Continues]
936
01:09:46,432 --> 01:09:49,026
At that time, he worked in the mill.
937
01:09:49,102 --> 01:09:52,732
- [ Lanzmann] There, opposite?
- Yes, and they saw it all.
938
01:09:53,439 --> 01:09:56,864
What did he think of it?
Was it a sad sight?
939
01:09:57,110 --> 01:10:01,115
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
940
01:10:05,410 --> 01:10:06,912
Yes, it was...
941
01:10:07,453 --> 01:10:08,955
Oui.
942
01:10:10,873 --> 01:10:15,219
Yes. How could you see that
without sadness?
943
01:10:15,294 --> 01:10:17,467
[ Hoof beats]
944
01:10:22,635 --> 01:10:26,310
- What trades were the Jews in?
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
945
01:10:32,478 --> 01:10:34,856
They were tanners, tradesmen,
946
01:10:37,775 --> 01:10:39,152
tailors.
947
01:10:46,367 --> 01:10:52,340
They sold things...
eggs, chickens, butter.
948
01:10:54,083 --> 01:10:55,585
[ Man Speaking Polish]
949
01:10:55,668 --> 01:10:57,841
[ Barbara, In French]
There were a lot of tailors...
950
01:10:59,005 --> 01:11:01,929
- [ Man Continues ]
- tradesmen, too.
951
01:11:02,008 --> 01:11:03,555
[ Man Continues]
952
01:11:03,634 --> 01:11:06,353
But most were tanners.
953
01:11:10,057 --> 01:11:15,154
- They had beards and side locks.
- [ Lanzmann ] Yes.
954
01:11:15,229 --> 01:11:17,482
He says they weren't pretty.
955
01:11:17,565 --> 01:11:19,533
[ Lanzmann ]
They weren't pretty?
956
01:11:21,277 --> 01:11:23,200
- They stank, too.
- They stank?
957
01:11:23,279 --> 01:11:24,781
- Oui.
- Oui?
958
01:11:24,864 --> 01:11:27,367
Why did they stink?
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
959
01:11:28,826 --> 01:11:32,706
Because they were tanners,
and the hides stink.
960
01:11:33,873 --> 01:11:36,672
[Chattering In Polish]
961
01:11:36,751 --> 01:11:38,628
[ In French]
The Jewish women were beautiful.
962
01:11:38,711 --> 01:11:41,260
- [Woman Speaking Polish ]
- [Women Laughing Together]
963
01:11:41,339 --> 01:11:43,888
The Poles liked to make love with them.
964
01:11:44,175 --> 01:11:47,179
Are Polish women glad
there are no Jewesses left?
965
01:11:47,261 --> 01:11:50,515
[Woman Continues]
966
01:11:54,852 --> 01:11:57,071
- [Women Laughing ]
- What'd she say?
967
01:11:57,146 --> 01:12:02,243
- That the women who are her age now...
- Oui?
968
01:12:02,860 --> 01:12:05,033
Also liked to make love.
969
01:12:05,112 --> 01:12:07,740
So the Jewish women were competitors?
970
01:12:07,824 --> 01:12:10,577
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
971
01:12:11,744 --> 01:12:15,339
It's crazy how the Poles
liked the little Jewesses!
972
01:12:15,414 --> 01:12:17,462
Do the Poles miss the little Jewesses?
973
01:12:17,542 --> 01:12:20,591
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
974
01:12:22,129 --> 01:12:25,099
Naturally, such beautiful women!
975
01:12:25,299 --> 01:12:28,929
- Why? What made them so beautiful?
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
976
01:12:29,011 --> 01:12:37,988
[Women Talking At Once]
977
01:12:38,062 --> 01:12:41,236
Because they did nothing.
Polish women worked.
978
01:12:41,315 --> 01:12:45,661
Jewish women only thought
of their beauty and clothes.
979
01:12:45,945 --> 01:12:49,074
- [ Lanzmann ] So Jewesses did no work!
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
980
01:12:49,490 --> 01:12:51,333
- None at all.
- Why not?
981
01:12:51,409 --> 01:12:52,911
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
982
01:12:54,120 --> 01:12:59,001
- They were rich.
- [Women Continue Chattering ]
983
01:12:59,083 --> 01:13:02,553
The Poles had to serve them and work.
984
01:13:02,628 --> 01:13:04,847
[ Lanzmann ]
I heard her use the word “capital.”
985
01:13:06,007 --> 01:13:08,635
[ Barbara ]
The capital was in the hands of the Jews.
986
01:13:08,718 --> 01:13:10,891
[ Lanzmann ]
Yes... You didn't translate that.
987
01:13:11,804 --> 01:13:16,059
Ask her again. So the capital
was in the Jews' hands?
988
01:13:16,142 --> 01:13:18,315
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
989
01:13:19,186 --> 01:13:21,154
All Poland was in the Jews' hands.
990
01:13:21,230 --> 01:13:24,655
Are they glad there are
no more Jews here, or sad?
991
01:13:25,484 --> 01:13:29,660
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
992
01:13:47,506 --> 01:13:49,008
It doesn't bother them.
993
01:13:49,091 --> 01:13:54,018
As you know, Jews and Germans
ran all Polish industry before the war.
994
01:13:54,096 --> 01:13:56,474
Did they like them on the whole?
995
01:13:56,557 --> 01:14:01,404
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
996
01:14:01,729 --> 01:14:04,608
[ Man Replies ]
997
01:14:04,690 --> 01:14:10,868
Not much.
Above all, they were dishonest.
998
01:14:10,947 --> 01:14:13,041
- [ L enzmenn Repeats Phrase j
- O ui .
999
01:14:13,699 --> 01:14:18,045
Was life in Grabow more fun
when the Jews were here?
1000
01:14:18,663 --> 01:14:24,545
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1001
01:14:32,134 --> 01:14:34,011
He'd rather not say.
1002
01:14:34,095 --> 01:14:36,939
Why does he call them dishonest?
1003
01:14:37,014 --> 01:14:41,360
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1004
01:14:41,560 --> 01:14:42,903
Tak.
1005
01:14:46,565 --> 01:14:51,662
They exploited the Poles.
That's what they lived off.
1006
01:14:51,737 --> 01:14:56,538
- How did they exploit them?
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1007
01:15:08,587 --> 01:15:10,464
By imposing their prices.
1008
01:15:12,133 --> 01:15:13,976
[ Chuckles ]
1009
01:15:15,386 --> 01:15:18,560
- Ask her if she likes her house.
- [Speaking Polish]
1010
01:15:19,098 --> 01:15:20,099
Yes,
1011
01:15:21,267 --> 01:15:24,316
but her children live
in much better houses.
1012
01:15:25,104 --> 01:15:27,106
In modern houses!
1013
01:15:30,234 --> 01:15:36,287
- They've all gone to college.
- Great! That's progress!
1014
01:15:40,286 --> 01:15:45,588
Her children are
the best educated in the village.
1015
01:15:45,666 --> 01:15:48,966
Very good, Madam!
Long live education!
1016
01:15:50,379 --> 01:15:55,806
Isn't this a very old house?
1017
01:15:58,304 --> 01:16:00,272
Yes, Jews lived here before.
1018
01:16:00,347 --> 01:16:03,851
So Jews used to live here.
Did she know them?
1019
01:16:06,645 --> 01:16:07,897
Yes.
1020
01:16:07,980 --> 01:16:10,699
- What was their name?
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1021
01:16:15,821 --> 01:16:18,825
- She doesn't know.
- What was their trade?
1022
01:16:20,451 --> 01:16:24,206
- Benkel, their name was.
- Ah, Benkel.
1023
01:16:24,830 --> 01:16:29,051
And what was their trade?
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1024
01:16:33,547 --> 01:16:35,049
[ Man Speaking Polish]
1025
01:16:35,132 --> 01:16:37,180
They had a butcher shop.
1026
01:16:37,968 --> 01:16:40,391
[ Lanzmann ]
A butcher shop. Why is she laughing?
1027
01:16:43,182 --> 01:16:46,652
Because the gentleman said it was...
1028
01:16:48,020 --> 01:16:50,648
a butcher shop where
you could buy cheap meat.
1029
01:16:50,731 --> 01:16:52,608
Beefl
- [ Lanzmann Repeats Phrase]
1030
01:16:53,317 --> 01:16:56,537
What does he think about
them being gassed in trucks?
1031
01:16:57,404 --> 01:17:04,037
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1032
01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:05,588
[ Man Replies]
1033
01:17:05,663 --> 01:17:07,916
He says he doesn't like that at all.
1034
01:17:07,998 --> 01:17:11,719
[ Man Continues]
1035
01:17:17,758 --> 01:17:21,854
If they'd gone to Israel
of their own free will,
1036
01:17:21,929 --> 01:17:23,476
he might have been glad.
1037
01:17:23,556 --> 01:17:27,356
But killing them was unpleasant.
1038
01:17:30,563 --> 01:17:32,565
[ Lanzmann]
Does he miss the Jews?
1039
01:17:32,648 --> 01:17:37,654
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1040
01:17:44,535 --> 01:17:47,880
Yes, because there were
some beautiful Jewesses.
1041
01:17:47,955 --> 01:17:50,003
For the young, it was... fine.
1042
01:17:50,082 --> 01:17:55,179
Are they sorry the Jews
are no longer here or pleased?
1043
01:17:55,254 --> 01:17:59,100
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1044
01:18:03,679 --> 01:18:08,480
How can I tell?
I never went to school.
1045
01:18:08,767 --> 01:18:12,988
I can only think of how I am now.
Now I'm fine.
1046
01:18:13,814 --> 01:18:17,159
- Is she better off?
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1047
01:18:22,489 --> 01:18:25,083
Before the war, she picked potatoes.
1048
01:18:25,159 --> 01:18:28,914
Now she sells eggs,
and she's much better off.
1049
01:18:28,996 --> 01:18:32,626
Because the Jews are gone
or because of socialism?
1050
01:18:32,708 --> 01:18:36,758
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1051
01:18:38,464 --> 01:18:43,220
She doesn't care, she's happy
because she's doing well now.
1052
01:18:43,302 --> 01:18:47,023
How did he feel
about losing his classmates?
1053
01:18:47,097 --> 01:18:50,647
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1054
01:18:51,227 --> 01:18:54,322
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
- [Wife Replies]
1055
01:18:55,481 --> 01:18:58,234
- It still upsets him.
- [Wife Continues]
1056
01:18:58,317 --> 01:19:01,241
- Does he miss the Jews?
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1057
01:19:01,487 --> 01:19:02,454
Certainly.
1058
01:19:02,529 --> 01:19:04,952
They were good Jews, Madam says.
- [ Lanzmann] Oui?
1059
01:19:07,284 --> 01:19:10,834
GRABOW IN WINTER
1060
01:19:56,667 --> 01:19:59,887
[ Michelsohn, In German]
The Jews came in trucks,
1061
01:20:02,006 --> 01:20:05,931
and later there was
a narrow-gauge railway
1062
01:20:06,010 --> 01:20:08,559
that they arrived on.
1063
01:20:09,722 --> 01:20:14,444
They were packed tightly in the trucks,
1064
01:20:14,518 --> 01:20:18,239
or in the cars
of the narrow-gauge railway.
1065
01:20:19,565 --> 01:20:21,863
Lots of women and children.
1066
01:20:22,192 --> 01:20:25,696
Men too, but most of them were old.
1067
01:20:25,904 --> 01:20:30,626
The strongest were put in work details.
1068
01:20:31,076 --> 01:20:35,297
They walked with chains on their legs.
1069
01:20:35,372 --> 01:20:38,467
In the morning, they fetched water,
1070
01:20:38,542 --> 01:20:41,842
looked for food, and so on.
1071
01:20:42,254 --> 01:20:44,848
- [ Lanzmann ] D/ese Arbe/tsjuden...
- [ Repeats Phrase]
1072
01:20:44,923 --> 01:20:46,516
These weren't killed right away.
1073
01:20:46,592 --> 01:20:48,686
That was done later.
1074
01:20:48,761 --> 01:20:51,765
I don't know what became of them.
1075
01:20:51,972 --> 01:20:54,566
They didn't survive, anyway.
1076
01:20:54,641 --> 01:20:56,939
[ Lanzmann ]
Two of them did.
1077
01:20:57,019 --> 01:20:58,692
- Only two.
1078
01:20:59,021 --> 01:21:01,023
They were in chains?
1079
01:21:02,066 --> 01:21:04,068
- On the legs.
- All of them?
1080
01:21:04,151 --> 01:21:11,376
The workers, yes.
The others were killed at once.
1081
01:21:11,450 --> 01:21:16,707
The Jewish work squad
went through the village in chains.
1082
01:21:17,039 --> 01:21:18,666
- Yes.
- Mm-hmm.
1083
01:21:18,957 --> 01:21:22,928
Could people speak to them?
1084
01:21:23,003 --> 01:21:27,383
No, that was impossible.
1085
01:21:27,466 --> 01:21:28,843
Why?
1086
01:21:29,885 --> 01:21:31,933
No one dared.
1087
01:21:32,638 --> 01:21:34,891
- What?
- No one dared.
1088
01:21:34,973 --> 01:21:37,522
- Ja.
- Understand?
1089
01:21:38,143 --> 01:21:40,237
Yes... No one dared.
1090
01:21:40,312 --> 01:21:42,314
Why, was it dangerous?
1091
01:21:42,398 --> 01:21:49,498
- Yes, there were guards.
- Ja.
1092
01:21:52,533 --> 01:21:56,208
Anyway, people wanted
nothing to do with all that.
1093
01:21:57,204 --> 01:21:58,672
Do you see?
- Ja.
1094
01:21:58,747 --> 01:22:03,002
Gets on your nerves,
seeing that every day.
1095
01:22:10,592 --> 01:22:15,393
You can? force a whole village
to watch such distress.
1096
01:22:16,890 --> 01:22:19,234
When the Jews arrived,
1097
01:22:19,309 --> 01:22:23,280
when they were pushed
into the church or the castle...
1098
01:22:24,022 --> 01:22:25,865
And the screams!
1099
01:22:25,941 --> 01:22:29,571
It was frightful!
Depressing.
1100
01:22:29,820 --> 01:22:33,870
Day after day, the same spectacle!
1101
01:22:37,828 --> 01:22:42,049
It was terrible!
A sad spectacle!
1102
01:22:42,916 --> 01:22:46,546
They screamed.
They knew what was happening.
1103
01:22:47,880 --> 01:22:51,976
At first, the Jews thought
they were going to be deloused.
1104
01:22:52,509 --> 01:22:56,184
But they soon understood.
1105
01:22:56,263 --> 01:22:59,062
Their screams grew wilder and wilder.
1106
01:23:00,893 --> 01:23:03,942
Horrifying screams. Screams of terror.
1107
01:23:04,021 --> 01:23:07,821
Because they knew
what was happening to them.
1108
01:23:10,569 --> 01:23:14,745
Do you know how many Jews
were exterminated there?
1109
01:23:16,575 --> 01:23:20,455
Four something,
400,000... 40.000...
1110
01:23:20,537 --> 01:23:22,130
[ Lanzmann ]
400, 000.
1111
01:23:23,373 --> 01:23:27,253
[ Michelsohn ] 400,000, yes.
I knew it had a 4 in it.
1112
01:23:28,629 --> 01:23:31,178
Sad, sad, sad!
1113
01:23:33,383 --> 01:23:36,478
[Srebnik, In German]
g When the soldiers march g
1114
01:23:36,553 --> 01:23:39,807
g The girls open their windows and doors g
1115
01:23:39,890 --> 01:23:48,366
J"; [ Continues ]
1116
01:23:48,440 --> 01:23:54,322
[ I enzmenn j
Do you remember a Je wish child, e b0 y of 13 f?
1117
01:23:54,571 --> 01:23:57,450
He was in the work squad.
1118
01:23:57,824 --> 01:24:00,953
He sang on the river.
1119
01:24:01,036 --> 01:24:03,130
- [ Michelsohn ] On the Narew River?
- Yes.
1120
01:24:03,956 --> 01:24:06,300
- Is he still alive?
- Yes, he's alive.
1121
01:24:06,875 --> 01:24:11,346
[ Lanzmann ]
He sang a German song
1122
01:24:11,797 --> 01:24:17,224
that the SS in Chelmno taught him.
1123
01:24:17,302 --> 01:24:20,351
“When the soldiers march,
1124
01:24:20,430 --> 01:24:22,899
[ Michelsohn ]
the girls open their windows and doors...”
1125
01:24:22,975 --> 01:24:26,650
J"; [ Continues ]
1126
01:24:37,489 --> 01:24:39,742
SIMON SREBNIK,
1127
01:24:40,033 --> 01:24:44,004
the survivor of the 2nd period
of extermination at Chelmno
1128
01:24:44,329 --> 01:24:46,832
(the church period)
1129
01:24:47,666 --> 01:24:49,668
N' I Qrgan ]
1130
01:24:52,170 --> 01:24:54,969
JU' [ Polish]
1131
01:24:58,218 --> 01:25:04,772
J; [Congregation Joins In ]
1132
01:25:06,018 --> 01:25:09,318
J"; [ Continues ]
1133
01:25:39,092 --> 01:25:42,016
Gr [ Continues ]
1134
01:25:57,319 --> 01:25:59,617
[ Lanzmann, In French]
So it's a holiday in Chelmno!
1135
01:25:59,696 --> 01:26:01,243
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1136
01:26:01,323 --> 01:26:02,870
- [ Together] Tak.
- Oui.
1137
01:26:02,949 --> 01:26:05,293
[ Lanzmann ] What holiday?
What's being celebrated?
1138
01:26:10,332 --> 01:26:13,802
[ Barbara ] The birth of the Virgin Mary.
it's her birthday.
1139
01:26:13,877 --> 01:26:16,300
- [ Lanzmann Repeats Phrase]
- Oui.
1140
01:26:16,380 --> 01:26:18,758
[ Lanzmann ]
it's a huge crowd, isn't it?
1141
01:26:19,132 --> 01:26:21,430
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1142
01:26:22,761 --> 01:26:28,609
But the weather's bad...
it's raining.
1143
01:26:29,267 --> 01:26:32,066
[ Lanzmann ] Ask them if they're glad
to see Srebnik again.
1144
01:26:32,145 --> 01:26:35,524
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1145
01:26:37,234 --> 01:26:38,861
Very. it's a great pleasure.
1146
01:26:38,944 --> 01:26:40,412
Why?
1147
01:26:42,614 --> 01:26:44,116
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1148
01:26:44,658 --> 01:26:47,878
They're glad to see him again,
1149
01:26:50,497 --> 01:26:53,546
because they know
all he's lived through.
1150
01:26:53,625 --> 01:26:57,505
Seeing him as he is now,
they're very pleased.
1151
01:26:57,587 --> 01:26:59,464
- They're pleased?
- Oui.
1152
01:27:00,090 --> 01:27:02,809
Why does the whole village
remember him?
1153
01:27:03,051 --> 01:27:06,146
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1154
01:27:18,316 --> 01:27:20,785
They remember him well
1155
01:27:21,987 --> 01:27:26,083
because he walked
with chains on his ankles,
1156
01:27:26,158 --> 01:27:29,958
and he sang on the river.
1157
01:27:30,162 --> 01:27:31,880
He was young,
1158
01:27:32,497 --> 01:27:34,374
he was skinny,
1159
01:27:34,916 --> 01:27:38,511
he looked ready for his coffin.
1160
01:27:38,587 --> 01:27:41,557
[ Lanzmann ]
Ripe for a coffin!
1161
01:27:41,631 --> 01:27:45,807
Did he seem happy or sad?
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1162
01:27:53,018 --> 01:27:55,066
Even the lady,
1163
01:28:03,528 --> 01:28:08,204
when she saw that child,
1164
01:28:08,283 --> 01:28:11,787
she told the German,
“Let that child go!”
1165
01:28:11,870 --> 01:28:13,964
He asked her, “Where to?”
1166
01:28:14,039 --> 01:28:15,666
“To his father and mother.”
1167
01:28:15,749 --> 01:28:19,549
Looking at the sky, he said,
“He'll soon go to them.”
1168
01:28:19,628 --> 01:28:21,551
- The German said that?
- Oui.
1169
01:28:22,547 --> 01:28:26,302
They remember when the Jews
were locked in this church?
1170
01:28:26,384 --> 01:28:30,059
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1171
01:28:31,139 --> 01:28:32,937
Yes, they do.
1172
01:28:37,437 --> 01:28:39,690
They brought them
to the church in trucks.
1173
01:28:39,773 --> 01:28:44,153
- At what time of day?
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1174
01:28:47,614 --> 01:28:49,412
All day long and into the night.
1175
01:28:49,658 --> 01:28:53,959
What happened?
Can they describe it in detail?
1176
01:29:13,098 --> 01:29:16,022
At first, the Jews
were taken to the castle.
1177
01:29:16,101 --> 01:29:19,526
Only later were they put
into the church.
1178
01:29:19,604 --> 01:29:21,777
[ Lanzmann ]
The second phase, right!
1179
01:29:22,649 --> 01:29:25,698
[ Barbara] In the morning,
they were taken into the woods.
1180
01:29:25,777 --> 01:29:29,623
[ Lanzmann ]
How were they taken into the woods?
1181
01:29:29,865 --> 01:29:32,288
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1182
01:29:36,204 --> 01:29:38,957
In very big armored vans.
1183
01:29:48,925 --> 01:29:51,678
The gas came through the bottom.
1184
01:29:54,764 --> 01:29:58,064
Then they were carried in gas vans, right?
1185
01:29:58,602 --> 01:30:01,401
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1186
01:30:01,646 --> 01:30:03,364
Yes, in gas vans.
1187
01:30:03,440 --> 01:30:07,195
Where did the vans pick them up?
1188
01:30:08,153 --> 01:30:09,621
- The Jews?
- Yes.
1189
01:30:09,696 --> 01:30:12,370
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1190
01:30:13,325 --> 01:30:15,248
Here, at the church door.
1191
01:30:15,327 --> 01:30:19,048
- The trucks pulled up where they are now?
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1192
01:30:19,372 --> 01:30:21,420
No, they went right to the door.
1193
01:30:21,499 --> 01:30:24,844
The vans came to the church door?
1194
01:30:27,130 --> 01:30:31,135
And they all knew these were death vans?
1195
01:30:31,217 --> 01:30:36,269
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1196
01:30:38,183 --> 01:30:40,436
Yes, they couldn't help knowing.
1197
01:30:42,395 --> 01:30:44,614
They heard screams at night?
1198
01:30:44,689 --> 01:30:47,909
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1199
01:30:50,028 --> 01:30:52,281
The Jews moaned, they were hungry.
1200
01:30:52,364 --> 01:30:54,332
[ Lanzmann Repeats Phrase]
1201
01:30:55,116 --> 01:30:57,210
They were shut in and starved.
1202
01:30:57,410 --> 01:31:01,756
- Did they have any food?
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1203
01:31:05,961 --> 01:31:10,341
You couldn't look there.
You couldn't talk to a Jew.
1204
01:31:10,423 --> 01:31:17,307
[Chattering In Polish]
1205
01:31:17,389 --> 01:31:21,769
Even going by on the road,
you couldn't look there.
1206
01:31:21,851 --> 01:31:26,072
- Did they look anyway?
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1207
01:31:29,734 --> 01:31:32,738
Yes, vans came,
1208
01:31:32,946 --> 01:31:35,995
and the Jews were moved farther off.
1209
01:31:36,074 --> 01:31:38,076
You could see them, but on the sly.
1210
01:31:38,159 --> 01:31:40,537
- [ Lanzmann ] In sidelong glances.
- That's right.
1211
01:31:41,121 --> 01:31:43,590
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1212
01:31:44,582 --> 01:31:47,461
That's right, in sidelong glances.
1213
01:31:48,294 --> 01:31:51,468
What kind of cries and moans
were heard at night?
1214
01:31:51,548 --> 01:31:58,102
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1215
01:32:07,647 --> 01:32:12,699
They called on Jesus and Mary and God,
1216
01:32:12,777 --> 01:32:15,075
sometimes in German, as she puts it.
1217
01:32:15,155 --> 01:32:20,878
[ Lanzmann ]
The Jews called on Jesus, Mary and God!
1218
01:32:20,952 --> 01:32:25,002
[Chattering In Polish Continues]
1219
01:32:25,081 --> 01:32:29,712
[ Barbara ]
The presbytery was full of suitcases.
1220
01:32:29,794 --> 01:32:33,173
- The Jews' suitcases?
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1221
01:32:33,465 --> 01:32:36,059
Yes, and there was gold.
1222
01:32:36,134 --> 01:32:38,353
- [Church Bells Ringing ]
- [ Lanzmann Repeats Phrase]
1223
01:32:39,679 --> 01:32:42,353
How does she know there was gold?
1224
01:32:42,432 --> 01:32:45,060
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1225
01:32:49,898 --> 01:32:53,118
[ Lanzmann ]
The procession! We'll stop now.
1226
01:32:54,569 --> 01:32:56,992
[ Bells Continue]
1227
01:33:27,769 --> 01:33:29,988
[ Bells Continue]
1228
01:34:16,609 --> 01:34:18,907
[ Bells Continue]
1229
01:34:37,422 --> 01:34:40,471
[Whinnies ]
1230
01:34:46,181 --> 01:34:48,684
[ Bells Continue]
1231
01:35:16,127 --> 01:35:18,721
[ Bells Stop]
1232
01:35:32,393 --> 01:35:34,521
[ Lanzmann ]
Were there as many Jews in the church
1233
01:35:34,604 --> 01:35:37,073
as there were Christians today?
1234
01:35:37,565 --> 01:35:43,948
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1235
01:35:45,281 --> 01:35:46,578
Almost.
1236
01:35:46,658 --> 01:35:50,162
How many gas vans
were needed to empty it out?
1237
01:35:50,245 --> 01:35:54,500
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1238
01:36:01,005 --> 01:36:02,507
An average of 50.
1239
01:36:02,590 --> 01:36:05,139
[ Lanzmann ]
It took 50 vans to empty it!
1240
01:36:06,010 --> 01:36:07,808
In a steady stream?
1241
01:36:07,887 --> 01:36:11,517
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1242
01:36:11,599 --> 01:36:12,646
- [ Together] Tak.
- Yes.
1243
01:36:12,725 --> 01:36:14,648
[ Lanzmann ]
The lady said before
1244
01:36:14,727 --> 01:36:18,231
that the Jews' suitcases
were dumped in the house opposite.
1245
01:36:18,314 --> 01:36:21,864
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1246
01:36:22,277 --> 01:36:25,907
- What was in this baggage?
- [ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1247
01:36:29,325 --> 01:36:32,795
Pots with false bottoms.
1248
01:36:33,037 --> 01:36:37,042
What was in the false bottoms?
1249
01:36:37,125 --> 01:36:40,049
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1250
01:36:42,380 --> 01:36:44,883
- Valuables... objects of value.
- Ah, oui?
1251
01:36:44,966 --> 01:36:47,264
[Woman Continues In Polish]
1252
01:36:47,343 --> 01:36:51,189
They also had gold in their clothes.
1253
01:36:51,472 --> 01:36:54,567
[Woman Continues]
1254
01:36:54,642 --> 01:36:59,773
When given food, the Jews
sometimes threw them valuables
1255
01:36:59,856 --> 01:37:01,654
or sometimes money.
1256
01:37:02,317 --> 01:37:06,447
[ Lanzmann ] They said before
it was forbidden to talk to Jews.
1257
01:37:06,529 --> 01:37:12,081
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1258
01:37:13,077 --> 01:37:15,296
Absolutely forbidden.
1259
01:37:18,499 --> 01:37:20,501
[ Lanzmann ]
Ask them if they miss the Jews.
1260
01:37:20,585 --> 01:37:26,342
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1261
01:37:26,424 --> 01:37:29,473
- [Woman Replies]
- Of course.
1262
01:37:29,552 --> 01:37:31,475
[Woman Continues]
1263
01:37:31,554 --> 01:37:36,105
We wept too, Madam says.
1264
01:37:36,309 --> 01:37:38,277
[ Lanzmann ]
Oui. Bien sfir.
1265
01:37:39,437 --> 01:37:43,442
And Mr. Kantarowski
gave them bread and cucumbers.
1266
01:37:52,617 --> 01:37:56,542
Why do they think
all this happened to the Jews?
1267
01:37:56,621 --> 01:38:01,343
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1268
01:38:04,045 --> 01:38:06,218
Because they were the richest!
1269
01:38:06,297 --> 01:38:08,095
[ Lanzmann Repeats Phrase]
1270
01:38:08,174 --> 01:38:13,055
Many Poles were also exterminated.
1271
01:38:13,137 --> 01:38:14,639
Even priests.
1272
01:38:14,722 --> 01:38:16,599
Mr. Kantarowski...
1273
01:38:22,271 --> 01:38:24,990
will tell us what a friend told him.
1274
01:38:25,066 --> 01:38:27,945
It happened in Myndjewyce, near Warsaw.
1275
01:38:28,027 --> 01:38:29,529
[ Lanzmann ]
Go on.
1276
01:38:47,713 --> 01:38:51,889
[ Barbara ]
The Jews were gathered in a square.
1277
01:38:52,135 --> 01:38:56,185
The rabbi asked an SS man,
“Can I talk to them?”
1278
01:38:56,639 --> 01:38:58,687
The guard said yes.
1279
01:39:12,196 --> 01:39:16,952
So the rabbi said
that around 2,000 years ago,
1280
01:39:17,034 --> 01:39:21,540
the Jews condemned
the innocent Christ to death.
1281
01:39:32,717 --> 01:39:36,142
And when they did that,
they cried out,
1282
01:39:36,220 --> 01:39:40,145
“Let his blood fall on our heads
and on our sons' heads.”
1283
01:39:40,224 --> 01:39:41,817
[ Lanzmann ]
Ou/I oui.
1284
01:39:54,697 --> 01:39:58,418
[ Barbara ]
Then the rabbi told them,
1285
01:39:58,493 --> 01:40:03,920
“Perhaps the time has come for that,
so let us do nothing.
1286
01:40:04,373 --> 01:40:08,094
Let us go,
let us do as we're asked.”
1287
01:40:08,169 --> 01:40:10,843
[ Lanzmann ] He thinks the Jews expiated
the death of Christ?
1288
01:40:10,922 --> 01:40:13,766
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1289
01:40:17,595 --> 01:40:21,190
He doesn't think so,
or even that Christ sought revenge.
1290
01:40:21,265 --> 01:40:24,360
He didn't say that.
The rabbi said it.
1291
01:40:24,435 --> 01:40:26,278
[ Lanzmann Repeats Phrase]
1292
01:40:27,897 --> 01:40:30,776
[ Barbara ]
It was God's will, that's all!
1293
01:40:46,332 --> 01:40:48,710
- [ Lanzmann ] What'd she say?
- So Pilate washed his hands
1294
01:40:48,793 --> 01:40:53,890
and said, “Christ is innocent,”
he sent Barabbas.
1295
01:40:53,965 --> 01:40:56,059
But the Jews cried out,
1296
01:40:56,133 --> 01:40:59,137
“Let his blood fall on our heads.”
1297
01:41:02,098 --> 01:41:04,226
That's all. Now you know!
1298
01:41:17,071 --> 01:41:19,165
[Chattering Fades]
1299
01:42:28,309 --> 01:42:31,813
[ Lanzmann, In French]
Was the road between Chelmno, the village
1300
01:42:31,896 --> 01:42:33,990
and the woods where the pits were,
1301
01:42:34,065 --> 01:42:36,568
was it asphalted as it is now?
1302
01:42:37,234 --> 01:42:43,833
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1303
01:42:46,077 --> 01:42:51,584
[ Falborski Speaking Polish]
1304
01:42:52,667 --> 01:42:57,423
The road was narrower then,
but it was asphalted.
1305
01:43:07,014 --> 01:43:10,769
How many feet
were the pits from the road?
1306
01:43:11,352 --> 01:43:18,201
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1307
01:43:20,361 --> 01:43:24,616
[ Falborski Speaking Polish]
1308
01:43:35,459 --> 01:43:39,635
They were around 1,600 feet,
1309
01:43:39,714 --> 01:43:43,014
maybe 1,900 or 2,200 feet away.
1310
01:43:44,135 --> 01:43:48,641
So even from the road,
you couldn't see them.
1311
01:44:02,486 --> 01:44:04,409
How fast did the vans go?
1312
01:44:04,488 --> 01:44:06,456
[ Barbara Speaking Polish]
1313
01:44:08,284 --> 01:44:11,504
PAN FALBORSKI
1314
01:44:11,829 --> 01:44:18,758
At moderate speed, kind of slow.
1315
01:44:34,351 --> 01:44:35,853
It was a calculated speed
1316
01:44:35,936 --> 01:44:41,318
because they had to kill
the people inside on the way.
1317
01:44:41,400 --> 01:44:43,198
When they went too fast,
1318
01:44:43,277 --> 01:44:47,703
the people weren't quite dead
on arrival in the woods.
1319
01:44:47,948 --> 01:44:54,376
By going slower, they had time
to kill the people inside.
1320
01:44:55,414 --> 01:44:59,669
Once a van skidded on a curve.
1321
01:45:05,382 --> 01:45:12,311
[ Falborski Continues ]
1322
01:45:12,389 --> 01:45:15,233
Half an hour later, I arrived
1323
01:45:15,309 --> 01:45:18,313
at the hut of a forest warden
named Senajak.
1324
01:45:18,395 --> 01:45:22,775
[ Falborski Continues ]
1325
01:45:29,865 --> 01:45:33,836
He told me, “Too bad you were late.
1326
01:45:33,911 --> 01:45:36,505
You could have seen a van that skidded.
1327
01:45:36,580 --> 01:45:39,880
The rear of the van opened,
1328
01:45:40,251 --> 01:45:43,095
and the Jews fell out on the road.
1329
01:45:44,088 --> 01:45:46,056
[ Falborski Continues ]
1330
01:45:46,131 --> 01:45:47,633
They were still alive.
1331
01:45:47,716 --> 01:45:53,974
[ Falborski Continues ]
1332
01:45:54,056 --> 01:45:59,608
Seeing those Jews crawling,
a Gestapo man
1333
01:45:59,687 --> 01:46:04,238
took out his revolver and shot them.
1334
01:46:07,486 --> 01:46:16,292
[ Falborski Continues ]
1335
01:46:16,370 --> 01:46:18,122
He finished them all off.
1336
01:46:18,205 --> 01:46:20,299
[ Falborski Continues ]
1337
01:46:20,374 --> 01:46:25,050
Then they brought Jews
who were working in the woods.
1338
01:46:25,129 --> 01:46:29,350
[ Falborski Continues ]
1339
01:46:29,425 --> 01:46:32,850
They righted the van
1340
01:46:33,554 --> 01:46:36,808
and put the bodies back inside.”
1341
01:46:46,317 --> 01:46:48,319
[ Srebnik, In German]
This was the road
1342
01:46:49,361 --> 01:46:54,333
the gas vans used.
1343
01:46:56,160 --> 01:46:59,790
There were 80 people in each van.
1344
01:47:05,002 --> 01:47:08,256
When they arrived, the SS said,
1345
01:47:08,339 --> 01:47:10,387
“Open the doors!”
1346
01:47:11,091 --> 01:47:16,393
We opened them.
The bodies tumbled right out.
1347
01:47:17,848 --> 01:47:20,397
An SS man said, “2 men inside!”
1348
01:47:20,768 --> 01:47:26,491
These 2 men worked at the ovens.
They were experienced.
1349
01:47:27,691 --> 01:47:31,446
Another SS man screamed,
1350
01:47:31,528 --> 01:47:35,374
“Hurry up!
The other van's coming!”
1351
01:47:36,241 --> 01:47:41,998
We worked until
the whole shipment was burned.
1352
01:47:46,752 --> 01:47:51,132
That's how it went, all daylong.
So it went.
1353
01:48:21,120 --> 01:48:25,591
I remember
that once they were still alive.
1354
01:48:28,669 --> 01:48:31,468
The ovens were full,
1355
01:48:33,632 --> 01:48:36,977
and the people lay on the ground.
1356
01:48:37,636 --> 01:48:40,606
They were all moving,
1357
01:48:40,681 --> 01:48:43,400
they were coming back to life,
1358
01:48:46,603 --> 01:48:49,982
and when they were thrown
into the ovens,
1359
01:48:50,065 --> 01:48:51,692
they were all conscious. Alive.
1360
01:48:51,775 --> 01:48:55,279
They could feel the fire burn them.
1361
01:49:16,884 --> 01:49:22,266
When we built the ovens,
I wondered what they were for.
1362
01:49:25,642 --> 01:49:28,020
An SS man told me,
1363
01:49:28,312 --> 01:49:33,193
“To make charcoal.
For laundry irons.”
1364
01:49:34,151 --> 01:49:36,654
That's what he told me.
I didn't know.
1365
01:49:39,823 --> 01:49:42,872
When the ovens were completed,
1366
01:49:44,995 --> 01:49:48,124
the logs put in
1367
01:49:48,207 --> 01:49:52,007
and the gasoline poured on and lighted,
1368
01:49:53,837 --> 01:49:56,841
and when the first gas van arrived,
1369
01:49:57,299 --> 01:50:02,351
then we knew why the ovens were built.
1370
01:50:12,106 --> 01:50:15,576
When I saw all that, it didn't affect me.
1371
01:50:16,735 --> 01:50:21,457
Neither did the 2nd or 3rd shipment.
1372
01:50:24,368 --> 01:50:27,542
I was only 13,
1373
01:50:27,871 --> 01:50:31,796
and all I'd ever seen until then
1374
01:50:31,875 --> 01:50:35,379
were dead bodies.
1375
01:50:39,967 --> 01:50:42,140
Maybe I didn't understand.
1376
01:50:42,970 --> 01:50:48,568
Maybe if I'd been older
I'd have understood,
1377
01:50:48,642 --> 01:50:50,565
but the fact is, I didn't.
1378
01:50:50,769 --> 01:50:54,649
I'd never seen anything else.
1379
01:50:55,566 --> 01:51:00,322
In the ghetto, I saw...
in the ghetto in Lodz,
1380
01:51:00,404 --> 01:51:04,910
that as soon as anyone took a step,
he fell dead.
1381
01:51:05,242 --> 01:51:09,247
I thought that was
the way things had to be.
1382
01:51:09,621 --> 01:51:11,168
It was normal.
1383
01:51:11,248 --> 01:51:13,376
I'd walk the streets of Lodz,
1384
01:51:14,585 --> 01:51:19,091
maybe 100 yards,
and there'd be 200 bodies.
1385
01:51:22,092 --> 01:51:23,935
People were hungry.
1386
01:51:24,011 --> 01:51:27,481
They went into the street
and they fell, they fell...
1387
01:51:28,682 --> 01:51:31,606
Sons took their fathers' bread,
1388
01:51:31,685 --> 01:51:34,905
fathers took their sons'.
1389
01:51:34,980 --> 01:51:38,325
Everyone wanted to stay alive.
1390
01:51:40,444 --> 01:51:43,539
So when I came here, to Chelmno,
1391
01:51:44,031 --> 01:51:45,874
I was already...
1392
01:51:46,617 --> 01:51:49,621
I didn't care about anything.
1393
01:51:50,204 --> 01:51:55,677
I thought, if I survive,
1394
01:51:55,751 --> 01:51:57,970
I just want one thing:
1395
01:51:59,504 --> 01:52:01,848
5 loaves of bread to eat.
1396
01:52:01,924 --> 01:52:03,517
That's all.
1397
01:52:03,759 --> 01:52:06,308
That's what I thought.
1398
01:52:06,386 --> 01:52:08,184
But I dreamed, too,
1399
01:52:08,263 --> 01:52:11,688
that if I survived,
I'd be the only one left in the world,
1400
01:52:11,767 --> 01:52:14,441
not another soul. Just me. One.
1401
01:52:20,901 --> 01:52:24,997
Only me left in the world,
if! get out of here.
1402
01:52:41,755 --> 01:52:44,508
THE RUHR
1403
01:52:46,009 --> 01:52:51,231
[ Lanzmann, In French]
“Gehame Rekzhssache secret Reich business.
1404
01:52:53,267 --> 01:52:56,862
“Berlin, June 5, 1942.
1405
01:52:59,856 --> 01:53:04,987
Changes to be made
to special vehicles now in service
1406
01:53:05,195 --> 01:53:07,539
at Kulmhof (Chelmno)
1407
01:53:07,906 --> 01:53:09,908
and to those now being built.
1408
01:53:15,414 --> 01:53:18,338
Since December 1941,
1409
01:53:19,209 --> 01:53:25,637
97,000 have been processed
(verarbeitet in German)
1410
01:53:26,550 --> 01:53:30,475
by the 3 vehicles in service,
with no major incident.
1411
01:53:32,764 --> 01:53:37,315
In light of observations
made so far, however,
1412
01:53:37,394 --> 01:53:40,694
the following technical changes
are needed:
1413
01:53:41,898 --> 01:53:43,241
First,
1414
01:53:44,109 --> 01:53:49,661
the van is" normal load
is usually .9 to 70 per square yard.
1415
01:53:52,075 --> 01:53:56,080
In Saurer vehicles,
which are very spacious,
1416
01:53:57,247 --> 01:54:00,877
maximum use of space is impossible,
1417
01:54:01,585 --> 01:54:04,759
not because of any possible overload,
1418
01:54:06,089 --> 01:54:09,593
but because loading to full capacity
1419
01:54:09,676 --> 01:54:13,351
would affect the vehicle's stability.
1420
01:54:15,015 --> 01:54:19,236
So reduction of the load space
seems necessary.
1421
01:54:21,480 --> 01:54:24,905
It must absolutely
be reduced by a yard,
1422
01:54:24,983 --> 01:54:29,534
instead of trying to solve the problem,
as hitherto,
1423
01:54:29,613 --> 01:54:33,163
by reducing the number
of pieces loaded.
1424
01:54:36,370 --> 01:54:41,843
Besides, this extends the operating time,
1425
01:54:43,502 --> 01:54:47,882
as the empty void must also
be filled with carbon monoxide.
1426
01:54:49,633 --> 01:54:54,059
On the other hand,
if the load space is reduced
1427
01:54:54,679 --> 01:54:57,683
and the vehicle is packed solid,
1428
01:54:58,475 --> 01:55:02,730
the operating time can be
considerably shortened.
1429
01:55:04,189 --> 01:55:07,944
The manufacturers told us
during a discussion,
1430
01:55:08,527 --> 01:55:12,282
that reducing the size
of the van's rear
1431
01:55:12,864 --> 01:55:15,413
would throw it badly off balance.
1432
01:55:16,493 --> 01:55:20,373
The front axle, they claim,
would be overloaded.
1433
01:55:23,542 --> 01:55:29,220
In fact, the balance
is automatically restored
1434
01:55:30,424 --> 01:55:33,519
because the merchandise aboard
1435
01:55:34,678 --> 01:55:38,273
displays, during the operation,
1436
01:55:38,348 --> 01:55:42,694
a natural tendency
to rush to the rear doors,
1437
01:55:43,895 --> 01:55:48,947
and are mainly found lying there
at the end of the operation.
1438
01:55:51,528 --> 01:55:56,500
So the front axle is not overloaded.
1439
01:56:01,621 --> 01:56:03,214
Secondly:
1440
01:56:05,459 --> 01:56:11,137
The lighting must be
better protected than now.
1441
01:56:13,383 --> 01:56:16,683
The lamps must be enclosed
in a steel grid
1442
01:56:16,761 --> 01:56:19,685
to prevent their being damaged.
1443
01:56:21,766 --> 01:56:24,440
Lights could be eliminated,
1444
01:56:24,519 --> 01:56:28,069
since they apparently are never used.
1445
01:56:30,108 --> 01:56:34,363
However, it has been observed
1446
01:56:34,446 --> 01:56:36,995
that when the doors are shut,
1447
01:56:37,991 --> 01:56:43,998
the load always
presses hard against them
1448
01:56:44,080 --> 01:56:46,424
(against the doors)
1449
01:56:46,500 --> 01:56:49,219
as soon as darkness sets in.
1450
01:56:50,128 --> 01:56:53,428
This is because the load
1451
01:56:54,049 --> 01:56:57,098
naturally rushes toward the light
1452
01:56:58,637 --> 01:57:00,605
when darkness sets in,
1453
01:57:01,932 --> 01:57:05,061
which makes
closing the doors difficult.
1454
01:57:07,479 --> 01:57:13,157
Also, because
of the alarming nature of darkness,
1455
01:57:14,486 --> 01:57:20,334
screaming always occurs
when the doors are closed.
1456
01:57:22,619 --> 01:57:25,793
It would therefore be useful
to light the lamp
1457
01:57:26,790 --> 01:57:30,465
before and during
the first moments of the operation.
1458
01:57:33,547 --> 01:57:35,049
Third:
1459
01:57:37,300 --> 01:57:40,099
For easy cleaning of the vehicle,
1460
01:57:40,971 --> 01:57:46,023
there must be a sealed drain
in the middle of the floor.
1461
01:57:47,811 --> 01:57:53,193
The drainage hole's cover,
8 to 12 inches in diameter,
1462
01:57:54,192 --> 01:57:56,786
would be equipped with a slanting trap,
1463
01:57:57,696 --> 01:58:00,791
so that fluid liquids
1464
01:58:04,244 --> 01:58:07,498
can drain off during the operation.
1465
01:58:12,919 --> 01:58:14,796
During cleaning,
1466
01:58:15,005 --> 01:58:19,681
the drain can be used
to evacuate large pieces of dirt.
1467
01:58:29,728 --> 01:58:32,857
The aforementioned technical changes
1468
01:58:32,939 --> 01:58:35,533
are to be made
to vehicles in service
1469
01:58:35,609 --> 01:58:39,284
only when they come in for repairs.
1470
01:58:41,865 --> 01:58:45,369
As for the 10 vehicles
ordered from Saurer,
1471
01:58:49,039 --> 01:58:54,967
they must be equipped
with all innovations and changes
1472
01:58:56,046 --> 01:58:59,346
shown by use
and experience to be necessary.
1473
01:59:02,218 --> 01:59:06,849
Submitted for decision
to Gruppenleiter H D,
1474
01:59:06,931 --> 01:59:11,402
SS-Obersturmbannfiihrer Walter Rauff.
1475
01:59:13,313 --> 01:59:15,941
Signed Just.”
1476
01:59:26,284 --> 01:59:29,254
END OF THE FIRST ERA