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This programme contains scenes of a
sexual nature, some strong language,

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and scenes which some viewers may
find disturbing

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SYNTH NOTES REVERBERATE

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LOW NOTES BOOM

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ELECTRONIC BEAT INTENSIFIES

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Look what I'm doing -
standing with a knife.

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<font color="

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Even like this,
I can keep up my secret reputation

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as evil and vicious.

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Ah! Oh! God bless David Bowie.

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Which one? The LSD, the DMT
or the ketamine?

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The OTO, Cafe OTO, was great.

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It was beautiful.

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<font color="
Your lunch is here.

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Lunch is served.

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Do you mind if I just give
her a little...?

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We moved here in '96.

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Way back in the '60s,
we wrote this poem about,

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"New York is the toilet of Europe.

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<font color="
they don't want into New York."

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And strangely enough,
they flushed me here, too.

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Wow, what a life, Musty.

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What a life.

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One of the most transgressive
art collectives

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that this country's ever produced.

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<font color="
actually describe your own music?

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To be as difficult as possible.

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No boundaries.

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You were intending to provoke
the establishment, weren't you?

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We've always strived to be honest.

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<font color="
are capable of doing to one another,

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good and bad.

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I grew up with Throbbing Gristle.

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Utter inspiration to me
when I was younger and queer.

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The wreckers of civilisation,

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and anything less,
<font color="

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All my life I've been drawn
to gardens,

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and I'm a big believer that
everybody should touch the Earth

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once a day.

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The garden is a very
spiritual place.

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It's, there's, the plants are not
<font color="

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they're just going to make
their statement and be there.

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Maybe we should be more like that.

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Just be rather than try
and change everything.

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Ah, lovely! That powdery blue,
that lilac-y blue.

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<font color="
of the world,

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and you were creating the world,
could you have thought of that?

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Would you have ever thought
a fish, that live in water?

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What great thing, what a great idea.

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Whose idea was that?

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<font color="
and we can't live in theirs. Wow!

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I came originally from Hull.

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I grew up with Cosey.
We were neighbours.

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We were friends from the age
of dot.

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She's like my sister
rather than a friend.

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<font color="

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In our teens, we grew up and did
things together,

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and, when she left home, she moved
into a different part of Hull,

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and eventually met up with Genesis,

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and they'd started doing
different things under the name

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<font color="

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I can't tell you when that actually
started, or when it ended,

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cos I feel it still goes on.

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COUM is transmitting now.

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Les once made a point to me
years ago -

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we forget that as we grow,
<font color="

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He said, "When you're young,
you just see everything,

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"and you're on the ground

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"and you can see all this
are the world going on.

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"And as you grow your, your eyes
are moving away from that

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<font color="

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And I think it's good to get back
down on the ground

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and realise where everything
really comes from.

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I grew up on a council estate
in Hull.

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I was born in 1951 -
post-war baby.

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<font color="
what I was expected to be.

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I mean, especially being I wasn't
middle-lass, I was working-class,

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and you were definitely channelled
into just literally working

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for the rest of your life,

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being a wife and working
<font color="

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Even, even a lot of the women
on my estate didn't go to work.

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Some worked in factories,
but not many.

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They were stay-at-home mums.

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And, erm, I,
I couldn't see myself doing that.

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<font color="
up and gave me access to a more male

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kind of view of the world, through,
you know, wanting me to be a boy.

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I think that had a lot
to do with it.

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I remember having a conversation
with my father when I was 14.

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<font color="
for British Gas.

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And I told him
I wanted to be a poet.

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I never really knew what that meant,
but it sounded nice.

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But I knew instinctively,
that I was different,

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and that I wasn't like
<font color="

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I lived on a council estate.

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You were homosexual, you were queer,
you would be beaten up.

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Hull was pretty isolated.

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The Humber Bridge wasn't built.

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Back in the 1960s, Hull was
a different sort of place.

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<font color="
and just tucked into that, you know,

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so a very drab, drab place, Hull.

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And I hate to say that,
but that's how it was.

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Obviously, there was beginnings
of pop programmes

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which became Top Of The Pops, but
<font color="

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going on before then,
like Ready, Steady, Go.

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So you've got an idea of
what was going on in the world

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outside of Hull.

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And, also, there were a lot of bands
that came to play in Hull.

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<font color="
Walker Brothers,

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and then Hendrix, of course,
came in,

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and that was a big sort of epiphany
for me, really,

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was seeing him.

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When I started going to all the
music and folk clubs

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<font color="

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I realised that a different
lifestyle was possible,

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and that was where I was heading,
you know?

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With a 303 rifle,
I was a first-class sniper.

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So, Jen and I first really met
<font color="

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to a cadet force day out.

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This is where you dressed
as soldiers and went out

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and shot at things, you know?

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I'd got a few things in my pockets
that he was interested in.

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I'd got my appendix I used to carry
<font color="

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I'd got a dried-up leech, I'd got a
rabbit bone, you know,

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all those things that boys have.

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He was...effete.

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He was kind of like the Oscar Wilde
of the school.

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Solihull School in those days
<font color="

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You know, we were very much
outsiders.

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And, at that point, we did not
have a single friend.

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And then there were these four boys
a year below me

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who were also in
the same kind of boat.

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<font color="

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And it was our salvation, really,
cos we then realised

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that we were into the weird,
new music that was happening,

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and we were into beatnik poetry,

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and it was spies that often informed
us of new stuff.

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<font color="
The Velvet Underground,"

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and he'd first heard about Sun Ra
and the Mothers Of Invention.

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It's hugely impossible to describe,
in the internet days,

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when you can just google something,
but, you know,

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<font color="
like starving men, really.

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We felt like we were a miniature
version of the beats,

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that we were protecting each other
and inspiring each other,

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and we were working towards doing
something important.

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<font color="

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under the name COUM Transmissions,

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in the late summer of 1969.

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We thought that we were
completely alone

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and that we'd experimented
with being in a commune in London

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and it hadn't worked, and we had no
<font color="

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We were just floating free.

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We decided to hitchhike
around Britain and,

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on the way, to drop in on
my parents in Shrewsbury.

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There was this weekend where
they said,

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"Would you like to go
<font color="

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So, we were driving around,

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and we closed our eyes
at some point.

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And suddenly there was an
explosion of psychedelic spirals

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and colours and voices,

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and we suddenly had this experience
that my being

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<font color="

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but we were reduced to the molecules
and the atoms.

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So, we were in the hedge,
but moving through it.

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And as that realisation
was happening in my conscious mind,

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suddenly all this other
<font color="

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And part of that was this phrase
cosmic organicism

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of the universal molecular.

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COUM for short - C-O-U-M.

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I was at the point where I'd started
smoking dope, taking acid,

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left my job because that was
<font color="

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And there were people in the college
that I got to meet who had bands.

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And so my whole world shifted
from the council estate to people

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that went to university,
art college, and I spent

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all my time with them.

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<font color="
of being thrown out of home.

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And I've been thrown out once
and still not learned my lesson.

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We had received amongst the visions
that we would meet a woman

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who would be Cosmosis.

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I was at the university
<font color="

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which I didn't like at all.

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I was about to leave.

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And as I was coming down the stairs,
I saw this little guy

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with a graduation gown and the hat
and the purple beard.

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And there was this classic flower
<font color="

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and looked at her.

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I didn't quite know if he was real
or not.

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And he'd seen me, apparently.
Someone came up to me and said,

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"Cosmosis, Genesis wants
to see you."

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That was the name he gave me.

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<font color="
later, I met up with him.

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So we moved all our stuff
into Prince Street.

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This totally Dickensian,
Georgian terrace.

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Two of them were more or less
derelict, knocked into one.

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They have 19 rooms.

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<font color="
or snowed, it snowed and rained

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in the kitchen.

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And then shortly after, Spydeee
joined us.

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I'd gone hitchhiking

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around the country and gone
to various places.

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I'd gone to Hull then because
<font color="

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Eventually, I found Gen and Cosey
just living around the corner

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and moved in with them.

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And as far as I'm concerned, that's
where COUM really began.

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Hello, good morning and welcome
to Arena. Genesis P-Orridge,

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<font color="
for his walking about with long hair

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and a beret, came into the studio
to tell me what was going to happen.

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Well, obviously it starts with
COUMA Are Fab and Kinky.

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"COUM is the folk music of tomorrow,
because there is no tomorrow.

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<font color="
of your subconscious."

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"Come away, you don't know where
they've been."

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"COUM make a nice evening
out for the family."

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There was nothing like it in Hull.

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Totally nothing like it. We would go
<font color="

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shopping area, dressed up in really
vibrant colours and do bizarre

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little Dada surrealist actions.

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They said to me at one point
the people come and say,

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"Well, what does it mean?"
It doesn't need to mean anything.

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<font color="

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We would bring props out and stand
there and maybe do a sort of recite

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poetry or do songs and try
and involve the public.

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By the way, Hull was quite
a friendly place.

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People were pleased to see,
<font color="

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You know, you could almost say every
day was a performance, really.

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It grabbed people's attention,
it made people smile.

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Some people became angry,
they thought

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we was absolute lunatics.

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<font color="
"I really enjoyed the other night.

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"It was like something
I'd never seen."

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You know, "Next time you're doing
something, can I join in?"

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We were interested in the idea that
people who've never been to art

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<font color="
cast-offs of society, were actually

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all potentially geniuses.

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We considered ourselves as outlaws
and outcasts, really, because anyone

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can do art.
You don't need a degree.

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Anyone can play an instrument.

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<font color="

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I mean, I had a couple of very
cheap old tape recorders, reel

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to reel, and I would mix them
up and I'd slow them down and record

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off the other one and I'd use a bit
of Stockhausen and I'd use classical

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music and underlay that with...
<font color="

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garden and just overlay it and
overlay it until I had a concoction

242
00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,440
of sound which seemed to fill the
room.

243
00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,960
Most of the people that we worked
with had nothing to do

244
00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:40,760
with universities or art colleges.

245
00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,480
<font color="
eccentric, interesting people.

246
00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:49,400
People inhabited these characters
that they had a particular interest

247
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,960
in and fetish for, even, if you want
to say that, and they were allowed

248
00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,240
to go and explore that,
but in a public place.

249
00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,480
<font color="
of doing things.

250
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:11,760
It was new.

251
00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,040
It felt right.

252
00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,440
It felt as if this is the direction
the whole world should go.

253
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,520
We did a gig in Bradford,
and that was how we met Foxtrot.

254
00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,680
I always thought it was more
<font color="

255
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:31,880
but a gang, really. In some ways it
was like a criminal gang or a kid's

256
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,000
gang. It was very much a '60s thing,
which I think was very healthy.

257
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:36,680
Everybody could have a go.

258
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,120
It was at a time when there was some
social mobility.

259
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,600
<font color="
have been a docker or something,

260
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:42,960
but you could do something.

261
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,360
I think this was to get
into Czechoslovakia.

262
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,040
I actually said COUM
was my company.

263
00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:54,320
This is one of the patches,
which were embroidered by Cosey.

264
00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,840
<font color="
or whatever it was.

265
00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,080
There's Gen sitting in Prince
Street.

266
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,000
That was an extraordinary place.

267
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,680
It was a semi-derelict jam factory.

268
00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,360
There were sort of dummies
and strange figures.

269
00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,960
It was like a sort of wonderland,
<font color="

270
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,400
And I know Spydeee
said he was always cold.

271
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:17,640
The roof was leaking and the kitchen
was just a cobbled floor that used

272
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,960
to get frosted over in winter,
and the toilet in the corner,

273
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:22,520
which was disgusting.

274
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:26,280
<font color="
that we'd fill up and take upstairs

275
00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,360
to do the cooking on the fire.

276
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:33,040
It was hard, but for me, I was kind
of living in a way I'd never lived

277
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,080
before, like everybody was.
We all were in that house.

278
00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:42,960
It was just, I can't really describe
<font color="

279
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,240
practice because I never
looked at it like that.

280
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,520
It was just the way I lived.

281
00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:50,000
It was hand to mouth.

282
00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:56,800
A lot of people don't realise
that having no money in your pocket

283
00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,960
and no prospect of any money...
<font color="

284
00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:01,880
What are you going to do?

285
00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:06,920
Genesis got the dole.
Cosey had part time jobs

286
00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,240
to help them survive.
I had to get odd jobs as well.

287
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,840
You know, I worked at the docks
and I was a petrol pump attendant

288
00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:15,440
<font color="

289
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:19,320
I got quite fed up with not
having enough money to eat properly.

290
00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,920
And I went and got a job
at the Humbrol paint factory.

291
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:29,600
So we could have regular
meals and we could afford to buy

292
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,800
certain things for the actions
<font color="

293
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:35,720
Cosey was actually on this poster.

294
00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:40,400
This is a bone of contention.

295
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,560
Why was not the only female
member of the group

296
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,040
on the poster, you know?

297
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:50,360
Well, it was really.

298
00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:57,720
I never even cottoned on that I was
<font color="

299
00:17:57,720 --> 00:17:59,120
the way I looked at it.

300
00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:02,920
I was just part of this creative
community.

301
00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,880
But, yeah, I did do a lot
of the housework.

302
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:11,200
So I think other people looked at me
as a woman and expected me

303
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,400
to do womanly duties.

304
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,280
<font color="
from being thrown out,

305
00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,120
so this was my security,
this home.

306
00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:22,200
Both Cosey and I,
we could have ended up homeless

307
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:24,480
on the streets, you know?
Absolutely could.

308
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,080
It was very close to that side
<font color="

309
00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,640
It's bad because I really don't
want to compartmentalise

310
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,200
her as the mother figure,
but she just had the common sense,

311
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,720
actually, is what it was,
the common sense that, you know,

312
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,360
we need to eat. We need to keep a
<font color="

313
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:42,400
We need to keep a certain
degree of sanity.

314
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,640
General Idea, who were based
in Toronto, did a magazine called

315
00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:02,880
File, and amongst it in one
of their issues was about six pages

316
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:08,840
that were yellow paper and it was
<font color="

317
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:14,360
And in it, there were literally
maybe 2,000 artists' names,

318
00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:16,920
and you could give your name
and your mailing address,

319
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:20,800
and then you could request images
of what you needed for your work.

320
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:22,280
We started writing to people.

321
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,720
<font color="
really.

322
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,200
And sending handmade things.

323
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,760
The whole idea was that you were
avoiding the galleries,

324
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:32,360
you were avoiding commerciality.

325
00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:36,840
You are giving a gift to another
artist.

326
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:40,760
And so, word got around and people
<font color="

327
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:45,600
"We're doing this, how do you fancy
doing some little thing "with us?"

328
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:50,520
Was a good time,
and it really accelerated

329
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,480
what we were doing in terms
of who we're meeting

330
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,840
and the opportunities that were sort
<font color="

331
00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,360
Yeah, it sort of exploded.

332
00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:02,560
Thank you all.
Is he going to smack me up?

333
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,480
It became too hot, so they moved
out. They made the right choice,

334
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,640
but it wasn't because of that,
they had to get out of Hull.

335
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,440
<font color="
Hull had gone.

336
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:28,560
And I kept saying to them, you know,
most of the things we'd like to do,

337
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,280
I'm sure they'll be a more
receptive audience down in London.

338
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:37,160
And we had our Austin,
the big black van, and we piled

339
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,760
<font color="
into it.

340
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:49,920
ECHOING: You're walking along
that way

341
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,000
ECHOING: You're walking along
that way

342
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,400
because I've got to go now,

343
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:55,560
I own this house.

344
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,560
You know, sometimes I really do
think...

345
00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:04,600
<font color="

346
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,640
It was a big, big thing
to move to London.

347
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:11,800
It was a big move that fragmented
us as a collective.

348
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,000
And then we met different people.

349
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,360
Robin Klassnik was saying
that there was a studio

350
00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:19,640
<font color="

351
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:21,040
and did we want it?

352
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,480
The electricity wasn't working
and the water was turned off

353
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:29,800
in the one sink and one tap.

354
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,680
But it was home. It was a bit better
than Prince St, but it was much

355
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,360
smaller, it was just one room
<font color="

356
00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:42,040
I built this box in one corner,

357
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:46,560
a wooden cave box just big enough

358
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:51,600
for a mattress that Cosey
had sewn out of canvas.

359
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:56,400
And then we piled up foraged wood
around it to make it look

360
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,760
like that's where we kept our raw
<font color="

361
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:01,880
because you weren't allowed
to live there.

362
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,680
And then under the arches
were all the factories, dress

363
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,160
factories, shoe factories, handbag
factories, which were a great source

364
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:10,960
of art materials for us.

365
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:16,640
<font color="
class, hardcore area. We many times

366
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:21,560
got chased through the park and,
you know, harassed and stuff.

367
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,280
But it was no different
to Hull really.

368
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,320
REVERBERATING NOTE PLAYS

369
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,120
When we went into the Martello
<font color="

370
00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:42,920
was the caretaker there and his son,
John Lacey, used to come and work

371
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,400
with him on his theatre productions.

372
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,680
And we got to know John
really well, and he joined COUM

373
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,000
and brought his expertise
on building synthesisers.

374
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,040
<font color="

375
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:02,480
When I first started working with
COUM, more of the music was either

376
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,720
acoustic or guitars and bass.

377
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:11,240
But in terms of effects,
units and synthesisers,

378
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,000
COUM weren't using those when I
started working with them.

379
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,600
<font color="
in what we did, sound-wise.

380
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,920
I think he was the bridge from
what we did as COUM - chaos -

381
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,200
to then having all this equipment

382
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,080
because he had theatre lights
and everything.

383
00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:38,480
The Oval House was about the COUMing
<font color="

384
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,280
in particular was the very innocent
views of sex.

385
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,520
It was about rites of passage.

386
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:49,280
I actually was in the control booth
doing lighting and sound.

387
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,160
We did use other music, though.

388
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,840
We used John Cale,
<font color="

389
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,760
There was me on the swing,
pink swing with a heart hole

390
00:23:57,760 --> 00:23:59,000
cut in the seat of it.

391
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,280
But then I peed right
across as I went along.

392
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,000
Jules Baker loaned
us this wonderful cage.

393
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,280
Used on monsters for Doctor Who
<font color="

394
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,400
And it had tendrils coming
in all over it.

395
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:15,560
And I was in that as a model
doing my modelling. But trapped

396
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,640
in this threatening environment.

397
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,240
And that was obviously drawn
in from what she was doing

398
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,080
<font color="
life, which was photography

399
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:26,360
for other people.

400
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,720
I found this competition for
Men Only magazine for...for,

401
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,600
you know, nude photographs that,
you know, and if you got accepted,

402
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,000
you'd get a prize and maybe you'd
<font color="

403
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,600
"Shall we enter it?
Would you do it?"

404
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,320
And I said, "Yeah, let's try it."

405
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:52,560
And that was the opportunity.

406
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:54,840
So he presented
really the opportunity for me

407
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,840
to start doing that,
must give him credit for that.

408
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:02,280
<font color="
her. We'd done nude stuff before.

409
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:07,440
So you're kind of like open
to being naked in front of people.

410
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:12,640
And also, for myself, intrigued
by the whole sex market

411
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:17,040
and exploring my sexuality
<font color="

412
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,920
a commitment to anybody
and it's an experience.

413
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:24,560
And it fascinated me, not least
because I started doing collages

414
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,080
using porn magazines.

415
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,920
It would be really nice for me
to be cutting myself out

416
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:37,240
<font color="
in found material, but genuinely

417
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:42,240
found. If I enter that market
and become that person

418
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,320
in the magazine that I'm cutting
out, then that's a fantastic,

419
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,520
complete work to me.

420
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,600
I've entered it and brought it right
<font color="

421
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,080
and it's an artwork from beginning
to end.

422
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,680
We were trying to manipulate
the media in some way.

423
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,760
That was one of the big
ideas in COUM.

424
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,040
You know, either get yourself
mentioned in the papers or lead

425
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,880
<font color="
way or play with the way the media

426
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:07,240
would play with you.

427
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,120
It was fascinating because from
the beginnings of those little black

428
00:26:10,120 --> 00:26:13,920
and white porn mags and some
colour ones off and on,

429
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:18,320
this whole thing sort of unfolded
<font color="

430
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,240
to be a model for these
sleazy little magazines.

431
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,240
It was a business.

432
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:24,600
And a big business.

433
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,920
I was in Greece, this is me
in Greece, modelling for Men Only.

434
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,600
I did a lot of modelling
for Laszlo Szabo.

435
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,160
<font color="
and he photocopied one of them

436
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,120
and sent it to me and signed it.

437
00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:42,840
This is part of the life forms
artwork I did with a series

438
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,920
of about four or five sequences
of photographs.

439
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,920
It shows the body position of me
<font color="

440
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:52,560
one informed the other.

441
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:57,280
So we have the photograph
I did with Szabo, the striptease

442
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,400
I was doing in Shepherd's Bush in
London and the art performance, art

443
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,480
action I did at the Hayward Gallery.

444
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,680
I do this set of business cards,
<font color="

445
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:12,640
because they fix in time
certain important parts of my life.

446
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:20,080
And this was for one I did it
for Tate, which, as you can see

447
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:21,200
again, I had to...

448
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,640
..cross out the offending
areas, but there you go.

449
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,800
<font color="

450
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,600
I didn't find feminism
spoke for me at all.

451
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,960
In fact, I found it very divisive.

452
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:40,040
It would split me away from an area
that I was really

453
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:41,200
enjoying exploring.

454
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:48,400
And I'd been to Gay Liberation
<font color="

455
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,920
first-hand what it was like to be
all-inclusive rather than divisive.

456
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,680
And that's what I liked, and I felt
more affinity with than feminism

457
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,440
at that time.

458
00:27:58,440 --> 00:27:59,720
I didn't hate men.

459
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,080
You know, I loved men, I didn't want
<font color="

460
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:05,920
in my life.

461
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,880
I understand the points completely,
but I am actually out doing

462
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,440
there what you are prescribing,
but in a different way.

463
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:17,280
I was in a position where I could
explore who I was and do exactly

464
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,720
<font color="
I had no responsibilities to anyone.

465
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,120
I didn't have to answer to anyone.

466
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:26,200
Maybe, Gen, but,

467
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,040
you know, that was part
of a relationship and working out

468
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,400
what you are with each other and...

469
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,200
But I didn't find feminism
<font color="

470
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,960
ECHOING: Catch them, catch them,
catch them, catch them...

471
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:40,920
Don't waste it, don't waste it...

472
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,960
Sleazy was starting
to get into the mould

473
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,120
of everything, and it was starting
to change.

474
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,080
It became more sinister.

475
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,200
<font color="

476
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,240
We met Sleazy when we did the
COUMing Of Age

477
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,320
at the Oval House in London.

478
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:03,160
Having seen the show one night
and then came to the cafe and sidled

479
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,000
up to us and said,
"Hi, my name is Peter.

480
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,960
<font color="
to take photographs of your show.

481
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:11,600
"Is that OK with you?"

482
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,880
And yeah, that's why...when he
became Sleazy, because I said

483
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,880
he was...the way he approached
us was very sleazy.

484
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,880
And the fact that he approached us
<font color="

485
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:26,160
He was interested in COUM, and he
knew it was within his kind of

486
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,680
zone of alternative interests,
shall we say.

487
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:37,200
So he was wanting to be a part
of it, but also needing

488
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:42,720
to keep his foot in the Hypnosis
<font color="

489
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,160
how he earned a living.

490
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:50,600
He's working with Hypnosis, doing
all these hyper expensive album

491
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:56,240
covers for hundreds of thousands
of pounds for Pink Floyd

492
00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,960
and LED Zeppelin, and all in the era
of great overindulgence

493
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:02,360
<font color="

494
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,000
He was just sort of gradually
becoming friends.

495
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,000
He was happy taking photographs
because he was a voyeur, Sleazy,

496
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,320
you know. It got to the point where
I said, "Well, are you actually

497
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,920
"going to do anything or are you
<font color="

498
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,520
"down and dirty now and again,
you know?"

499
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,800
And then we discovered that he'd
joined the Casualties Union

500
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:28,080
and that he could simulate
epileptic fits and create

501
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:29,960
really realistic wounds.

502
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:36,600
<font color="
for disasters, so they had to make

503
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,120
it look real.

504
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,560
And that interested us in terms
of the art actions as well,

505
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,600
because it was a really fantastic
art form.

506
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,040
And we said, if you, you know,
<font color="

507
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,520
with COUM, that would be interesting
for you to do.

508
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:58,800
The first was Coumdensation Mucus
at the Royal College of Art,

509
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,480
and in the video,

510
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:05,320
Sleazy appears to slice his arm
open and then stitch

511
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,160
<font color="

512
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:13,320
And we do blood and milk
and wine enemas - which are real -

513
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,400
and then urinate into a milk
bottle and then masturbate.

514
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:24,280
And it still disturbs people
when we show them...

515
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,880
HE CHUCKLES

516
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,880
<font color="

517
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:38,440
Studio Of Lust, which were the three
of us gradually becoming naked

518
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,680
and becoming entwined, which was
something quite new for Sleazy

519
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,080
to be naked with a woman,
cos he was gay.

520
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:50,200
So I was quite sensitive
<font color="

521
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,040
myself, so I didn't freak
him out completely.

522
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,960
That was his zone that he liked
to be in, pushing himself as well.

523
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,960
It was really good to be with
somebody who was other like me,

524
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,360
if that's a good phrase to put.

525
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,880
<font color="
human experience into a public

526
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:14,960
arena can shock people,
but at the time I had such a long

527
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:19,240
time in that sphere of being naked
and being at one with myself,

528
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:24,440
if you like, and with whatever my
bodily functions were, it was me.

529
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,840
<font color="

530
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:31,720
And it's quite OK to share
these things, rather than feel

531
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,920
that there's something we shouldn't
talk about or discuss in public.

532
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:41,520
My personal belief is that you can
do anything you want to yourself.

533
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,200
Body is your property.

534
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:44,560
<font color="

535
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,440
It's not owned by society.

536
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,320
It's not owned by family.

537
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,760
It's not owned
by laws and regulations.

538
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,520
It's yours to do with as you choose,

539
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,800
and to explore as you choose.

540
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,040
And for me, that's...that's enough.

541
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:08,200
<font color="
you occupied for a very long time.

542
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:13,320
But the idea of then extending
that out even voluntarily to other

543
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,440
people, it becomes problematic.

544
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:26,200
It was a party and Chris
was doing a light show.

545
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:30,600
And then Chris and myself started
<font color="

546
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,640
in synthesisers. And as he sort
of entered our world...

547
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:37,960
..John left.

548
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,320
I was working for so many different
people doing soundtracks, doing

549
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:49,000
lighting, that I kind of felt
I'd lost my way a bit and I thought

550
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,360
<font color="

551
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:55,720
So, yeah, Chris joined us
and he brought again, like John did,

552
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,600
he brought every bit of equipment
he did at one point to the studio

553
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,600
and set it all up. And that was just
like mind-blowing.

554
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,680
And I thought, you know,
<font color="

555
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,160
Never heard anything like it.

556
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:12,520
What we could produce with
the assistance of Chris's knowledge

557
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,480
is going into new territory
completely with sound.

558
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:21,760
When you're trying to truly change
a society or behaviour or any part

559
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,800
<font color="

560
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:30,520
..you can't just use one strategy.
You have to be really aware

561
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,000
of when the moment's gone
and you have to switch.

562
00:34:37,720 --> 00:34:42,200
Throbbing Gristle is Yorkshire
slang for an erection.

563
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,920
Throbbing Gristle initially came
<font color="

564
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:47,720
a throwaway statement.

565
00:34:47,720 --> 00:34:49,320
I don't know if I can say this on
camera.

566
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,120
There used to be a big fishing
fraternity in Hull,

567
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,760
and that's their expression
they used to use.

568
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:56,720
<font color="

569
00:34:56,720 --> 00:34:59,440
It was throbbing. And gristly,
it was tough.

570
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,480
And we proved that nobody needed

571
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,680
to have any training to make
successful radical new art.

572
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,640
It's proved that you can also
have a successful, radical,

573
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,240
<font color="
who can't play.

574
00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:13,680
You have to go to first.

575
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:15,760
Sleazy wasn't into playing
an instrument.

576
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,920
He couldn't get a note out.
He did try.

577
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,400
He got a cornet and tried
to play it and couldn't do it.

578
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,560
<font color="
to do it.

579
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,520
Well, we don't want a drummer
because that immediately takes

580
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,920
you into traditional rhythms.

581
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:33,760
The guitarist must not be able
to play, and that was Cosey.

582
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,600
It was just through effects pedals,
<font color="

583
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,040
the sound from there.

584
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,840
And there was an old bass guitar
lying around,

585
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:44,480
somebody had left there.

586
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,400
I think possibly the only one
that played any instrument straight

587
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,280
was Gen's bass because he kept
<font color="

588
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,520
And Chris was obviously
on his synths and effects units

589
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:59,640
that he built. And Sleazy wanted
to extend the tape recorder

590
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,280
experiments and cut-ups.

591
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,480
He'd got this Walkman, Sony Walkman.
What Chris did with him

592
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,440
<font color="
so that he could run tapes.

593
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,480
Then built them a little keyboard
that was hooked up to it.

594
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,240
And then you just play. We jammed.

595
00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:18,360
ELECTRONIC SOUNDSCAPE

596
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,320
The timbre of the sounds,
the frequencies and the volume...

597
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,040
<font color="

598
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:34,440
It was just to sort of rebuild
the notion of what music could be.

599
00:36:35,720 --> 00:36:40,960
The direct connection between
frequency and physical response

600
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,800
was something that we investigated
in Throbbing Gristle quite a bit.

601
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:49,280
In doing so we were quite often
<font color="

602
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,320
tunnelling effects and things
that could be regarded as probably

603
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,360
not very good for one's health.

604
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,400
We discovered some really weird
things to do with sort of high-level

605
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,840
sound and various sound waves.
Using low frequency sine waves

606
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:03,320
<font color="

607
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,800
as loud as you can get it does
the strangest things to my knees.

608
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:06,880
It really does.

609
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,760
The ICA had another in its
long-running,

610
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:13,720
"let's make you sick" series.

611
00:37:13,720 --> 00:37:17,120
This was called Prostitution
and featured all the tools

612
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,320
<font color="

613
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,800
1976.

614
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:30,160
We decided mutually that it was time
for COUM Transmissions to end.

615
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:36,920
We'd already been rehearsing
as TG since 1975.

616
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:41,120
We wanted to then try and see
what happened if we inserted

617
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:42,640
it into the culture.

618
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,440
<font color="
off with Ted Little,

619
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,600
who was then the director
of the ICA, inviting us to do

620
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:53,440
a male art show there.

621
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,400
Quickly turned into something
else as things do.

622
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:02,200
And during a conversation with him,
<font color="

623
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,640
and he said, "I'll do
a retrospective."

624
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:08,080
So Prostitution became
a retrospective of COUM.

625
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,400
And basically our exit
from the art world.

626
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,800
Cosey had just done some modelling
for a magazine called Curious.

627
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,880
<font color="
a chaise longue with a blindfold

628
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:21,320
on and above it,

629
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,160
it just said "prostitution".

630
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,600
I thought, well, we're all
prostitutes, really.

631
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,840
So I proposed it should be
called Prostitution.

632
00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:37,680
<font color="
present the magazines for the first

633
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:41,960
time. My magazines were put out
the back in a kind of box

634
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,760
where they were slid in, you know,
like Athena posters used to be.

635
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,840
And you'd pull them out
to have a look, but you had to join

636
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,240
<font color="
before you could see them.

637
00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:55,360
It was kind of work around
the laws of pornography.

638
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,360
We had props that we built,
so we ended up with those

639
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:04,160
being exhibited as well and bits
of costumes that Cosey had made

640
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,040
<font color="

641
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:12,080
I had this idea for these small
sculptures called Tampax Romana.

642
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,120
The tampons were my used tampons.

643
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,400
I had been collecting
for a while and we used them

644
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,080
in performances, again as part
of that whole thing of showing

645
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,160
<font color="

646
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,920
There was a copy of the
News Of The World on a table...

647
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:33,520
..and I just thought I wonder
what would happen if we sent invites

648
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,720
to all the press.

649
00:39:35,720 --> 00:39:40,280
Little did I realise what a furore
it was going to cause.

650
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,800
<font color="

651
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:47,080
And lo and behold, all those
editors and journalists

652
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,680
turned up and freaked.

653
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:54,560
We talked to Ted Little
and said, we want music.

654
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:59,120
So we got the band Chelsea
that became Generation X to play.

655
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,520
<font color="
contingent came along to see them.

656
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:03,800
It was brilliant.

657
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:09,080
And a comedian, John Smith from
Bridlington, who told dirty jokes.

658
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:10,960
And we had a stripper.

659
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,320
Why not have a stripper?
Let's make it our party.

660
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:18,480
<font color="
live to launch the band.

661
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:34,960
MUSIC PLAYS

662
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,880
Everyone had been drinking a lot.

663
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:44,760
And Ian Hinchcliffe was there,
was another quite extreme artist.

664
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,240
I remember there was a cluster of
people and Ian was shouting at Gen

665
00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:50,480
<font color="
because I didn't get on.

666
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,520
Suddenly I saw stars, and the
journalist from the Evening Standard

667
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,640
had hit me over the head
with a pint beer glass.

668
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,480
And there was just like
a huge fight on the floor

669
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,640
and Ted got kicked in the
<font color="

670
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,240
Gen, I took Gen to hospital
because he thought he'd broken

671
00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:10,200
his little finger and then we came
back and cleared the gear away

672
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,760
into the van and we went home.

673
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:13,800
It was just like...

674
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,960
..being stunned by some hand
<font color="

675
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,760
And the newspapers went crazy.

676
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,040
And then the next like ten days
or so handling all the press

677
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,000
and being hounded by them
outside the house and the market

678
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,560
nearby, in the gallery
being chased by them.

679
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,200
<font color="
all that, I just didn't even

680
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:42,160
want to know. Being called
the wreckers of civilisation

681
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,760
by Nicholas Fairbairn
wasn't a real problem.

682
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:47,600
I don't think we're uncivilised.

683
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,400
In actual fact, I think
<font color="

684
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,240
than some people

685
00:41:52,240 --> 00:41:54,040
and some elements of society.

686
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,480
Monte Cazazza over there
will be making the video cassette

687
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,680
of the whole proceedings.

688
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,320
There was a Canadian artist
who called herself Anna Banana.

689
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,240
<font color="
letter and amongst the letter,

690
00:42:17,240 --> 00:42:20,360
it said, "We met this awful human
being, the worst person

691
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:24,000
"we've ever met.
He calls himself Monte Cazazza."

692
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:28,200
And he'd send us all this
information and photographs,

693
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,840
<font color="
to.

694
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,480
We were at this person's house
talking and drinking wine,

695
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,880
and then he turned up
and he had this small suitcase

696
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:41,920
and he opened the little case and
it had a dead cat in it, roadkill.

697
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,560
<font color="
because he had no...

698
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:48,280
..no career hopes.

699
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:54,040
And he pulled out the cat, squirted
lighter fuel on it, set it on fire

700
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,720
and then pulled out this gun and
said, "You can't leave the room."

701
00:42:57,720 --> 00:43:01,160
And we just thought,
<font color="

702
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,800
"Sounds like my kind of guy."

703
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,600
He was there when industrial
music got named.

704
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:10,000
It was him that was saying, "Well,
you keep saying industrial, Gen.

705
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,680
"So it's industrial music."
And we went, "Yeah, you're right.

706
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:14,240
<font color="

707
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,280
It was industrious, there was a lot
of research involved.

708
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:25,520
Chris was obviously very industrious
with his technical experiments

709
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,200
and building equipment.

710
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,000
And that's where it came from
with the irony of the factory,

711
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:31,640
<font color="

712
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:38,720
In London Fields park, which we were
next to, there were the plague pits

713
00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:41,240
from when the Black Plague happened.

714
00:43:41,240 --> 00:43:47,080
And so hundreds of plague victims
had been buried under the ground

715
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,480
in the park, and as we were
in the basement, we were actually

716
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:54,640
<font color="
the plague victims.

717
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,920
And I called it the Death Factory.

718
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:09,480
It was fairly on the cards
that she was going to leave.

719
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:11,400
They'd fallen in love.

720
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,120
That can't be helped.

721
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,400
Me and Chris were together
<font color="

722
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:20,360
of the band, and my relationship
with Gen, which was in trouble

723
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:21,840
big time by then.

724
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:23,600
How are we going to cope
with that now?

725
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,520
You know, Gen's going to go
off and do his thing.

726
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:28,120
<font color="

727
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:32,160
And someone like Gen, you know, he's
got a lot of personality and a lot

728
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,440
of energy there, so he was a
difficult man to be around.

729
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,840
And he could throw some
serious, serious tantrums.

730
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:40,960
That sort of display of anger

731
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,000
<font color="

732
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,600
It was never going to be an easy
parting, and there was a lot

733
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:48,320
at stake.

734
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,080
We were much more focused
by then and more serious

735
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,440
about the things we were interested
in and what we wanted

736
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:55,480
to communicate to people.

737
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,760
<font color="
and neither was the climate

738
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,720
in the country, and I think
that had a lot to do with it.

739
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:09,920
We met Al Ackerman - Blaster -
who we'd been doing mail art

740
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,560
exchanges with and who in the
end ended up writing the lyrics

741
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:15,120
<font color="

742
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:16,360
He'd been in Vietnam...

743
00:45:17,720 --> 00:45:21,920
..as a medic, and he was working
on the night shift in a hospital

744
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:26,680
in Eugene, and there was a woman
who'd been in a car crash.

745
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:30,200
Been burnt so badly, she was known
around the wards as

746
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:31,640
<font color="

747
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:35,160
Her ears had got burned off
and she couldn't hear, her eyes

748
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,400
had been melted and gone,
so she couldn't see.

749
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,480
And her throat and tongue
had been so damaged,

750
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:43,480
she couldn't speak.

751
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,960
And we thought,
<font color="

752
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:48,680
in that ward, you know?

753
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:57,320
And it became probably one of the,
strangely enough, the most popular

754
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,400
songs we ever did.

755
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,160
People weren't sort of
turned off by it.

756
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,840
They were...they were driven
to a place of compassion.

757
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,400
<font color="

758
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,720
There was always an element for most
of TG when I was writing

759
00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:20,440
all the lyrics of it being closer at
times to a newspaper. The darkness

760
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:25,000
in TG came from the time,
the political state of the time,

761
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,640
<font color="
personal histories.

762
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:31,720
When I was growing up,
there was the Moors murders.

763
00:46:31,720 --> 00:46:33,920
And then, of course, you go
from there in the '60s

764
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,000
and there's Charles Manson.

765
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,840
There was obviously the post-war
<font color="

766
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,680
talking about it because
they were so traumatised.

767
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:49,160
People always go on about the Nazi
element of TG, which just wasn't

768
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:50,760
there at all.

769
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:54,360
It was just that we were willing
to discuss that thing.

770
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,960
<font color="
things to one another.

771
00:46:57,960 --> 00:46:59,920
Put it out there for discussion.

772
00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:03,000
It's not something you
should hide away.

773
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:07,040
Why is there this unwritten
boundary or a limitation

774
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,800
on what you can discuss in a lyric?

775
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,720
<font color="
doesn't mean you approve of it.

776
00:47:13,720 --> 00:47:16,600
You know, journalists write
about all sorts of terrible things

777
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,280
and they're not accused
of endorsing it.

778
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,440
People had started looking up to us
for some reason,

779
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,440
<font color="
We didn't. We were just posing them.

780
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,840
At the beginning, we did
lots of weird stuff, like once

781
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:36,880
we had just big mirrors in front
of us. That made people angry

782
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:38,280
because they couldn't see us.

783
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,160
We did another one where
<font color="

784
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:45,040
of the stage on the audience,
so that they were blinded.

785
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,560
But we could see them, you know?

786
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:51,840
But there's only so many ways
you can play with the audience/band

787
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:55,000
dynamic before it becomes
just trickery.

788
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:07,280
<font color="

789
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:11,400
Some guy had heard about us
and written to us and said,

790
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:15,600
"I could get my music teacher
to book you."

791
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:18,960
We said, "We'll come and play as
long as we can have a tour of the

792
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:23,080
"school and have lunch with the boys
<font color="

793
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:26,280
It was very strange but interesting
because... I mean, Sleazy knew

794
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:28,600
what it was like because
he'd gone to public school

795
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,360
and Gen did to some extent,

796
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,080
and we just did what we did

797
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:36,800
and they really didn't know
<font color="

798
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,120
And in the end, they started
singing Jerusalem.

799
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:43,560
It was quite amazing.

800
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,240
Beautiful moment,
full of testosterone.

801
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:44,080
MUSIC: Don't Do As You're Told,
Do As You Think

802
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,360
Monte said something interesting,
<font color="

803
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,280
"you to die on stage, don't you?"

804
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,360
I said, "What?"

805
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:57,960
He said, "It would suit everybody

806
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,880
"if you took it so far, you would...
..you died on stage.

807
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:03,920
"Stay alive out of spite, Gen."

808
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:09,640
I'd never thought of it that way
<font color="

809
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:13,800
too much like a sideshow.
"What will Gen do to Gen next?"

810
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:19,080
And in the end, we're all
going to watch Gen die.

811
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:21,920
No, that's not what we're trying
to say.

812
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,520


813
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:30,480
No, I always thought of TG
<font color="

814
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:36,200
if we could change music and change
popular culture and give it some

815
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,920
extra weight and intelligence

816
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,200
and new systems of expression.

817
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:44,840
And it worked.

818
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:45,960
We did that.

819
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:53,160
But suddenly, it was part-time
<font color="

820
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:55,960
that it became a pastiche
of itself and we'd taken

821
00:50:55,960 --> 00:51:00,600
it as far as we wanted to take
it without it becoming some kind

822
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:05,520
of demon or beast that was not
totally within our control.

823
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:10,440
I think we'd...we'd finish
<font color="

824
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,040
in the face and hitting people
on the head with a hammer

825
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:15,000
kind of approach.

826
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:19,760
And now we were more interested
in exploring areas that almost

827
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:21,720
we had no right to enter.

828
00:51:21,720 --> 00:51:25,880
You know, real music, like Giorgio
<font color="

829
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:27,360
And even Abba.

830
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:32,320
But it interested us in how
we could approach it and do

831
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:33,600
it our way.

832
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:38,440
One of these myths that seems
to circulate is that TG ended in

833
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:43,360
1981 because of bedroom politics
<font color="

834
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:45,720
But I wasn't jealous of Chris.

835
00:51:47,240 --> 00:51:50,360
When we were in the studio
recording,

836
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:51,760
it was still really great.

837
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:53,840
Yeah, because that was important
to, I think,

838
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:55,520
to all of us, including Gen.

839
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:59,680
<font color="

840
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:04,040
to do in your extracurricular time,

841
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:08,600
you could say, I felt should
have been kept separate

842
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:11,680
and could have been. I mean, we were
all grown ups, you know?

843
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:15,960
And, you know, we're going to get
into dodgy territory here.

844
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:17,560
<font color="
Sure.

845
00:52:43,240 --> 00:52:45,360
Can you tell us a bit about some
of the concepts

846
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:47,160
that you're dealing with?

847
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:50,640
No.

848
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:55,800

and all the shadow settle

849
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:59,240

<font color="

850
00:52:59,240 --> 00:53:04,640

rush to fill them

851
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:09,480

I fall in love with the light.

852
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:54,280

away...

853
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:00,960
Mute Records wanted us to...

854
00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:04,840
They put feelers out.

855
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:09,520
<font color="
to regroup to publicise

856
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,000
their release of 24 Hours on CD?

857
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:15,560
To be really frank,

858
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:19,280
I still thought, would it
just become like it was last time?

859
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:21,880
And I'm sure they thought
exactly the same thing,

860
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:24,280
<font color="

861
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:26,320
And so it took place.

862
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:28,240
When we did the Astoria,

863
00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:30,360
that just totally blew me away.

864
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:31,680
When the cheer went up,

865
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,560
when we came out, I didn't quite
know what to do.

866
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:37,760
It was one of those moments where
<font color="

867
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:40,240
else is there
that they're cheering for.

868
00:54:40,240 --> 00:54:44,280
I had no idea that we'd had that
effect on people, and such

869
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:47,720
a wide range of age groups
as well, wasn't just the people

870
00:54:47,720 --> 00:54:49,960
that were around when we first
did it.

871
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:52,480
<font color="
more or less said to me

872
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:54,800
that it functioned well at its time,

873
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:55,920
and since.

874
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:02,000
this is a band called
Throbbing Gristle - Chris, Cosey,

875
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:03,960
Sleazy and me.

876
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:08,800
It's been almost
23 years to the day

877
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:10,600
<font color="

878
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:14,160
Wouldn't you just know it?

879
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,920
Oh, it's so hard trying
to do this after so long.

880
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:29,600


881
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:35,240


882
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:41,520
The first time we went
to the studio together after such

883
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:43,800
<font color="

884
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:49,440
we fitted in, we slotted in together
and gelled and produced music

885
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:53,800
within minutes, and it just
seemed like we'd never been away.

886
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:58,080
It was like being in a time
warp or something. As it went by,

887
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:01,600
<font color="
that were new music

888
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:03,640
that were equally as interesting.

889
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:06,840
So it just was one of those things,

890
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:10,200
it would have mutated naturally
if it kept going.

891
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,440
The music of Throbbing Gristle
featuring Peter Christopherson,

892
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:15,880
<font color="

893
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:20,640
There's a part of
me that wasn't totally surprised,

894
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:24,600
because he'd lived a life of
massive indulgence,

895
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:27,000
of anything and everything

896
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:33,040
that could take him into
new dimensions and delirious realms

897
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:36,680
and then his strange,
<font color="

898
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:40,920
Maybe that's why I
called him Sleazy.

899
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,320
You've got a kind of a few
conflicting memories,

900
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:50,160
but there is a truth in there,
which is all about using

901
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:53,560
your imagination, being open
to experience,

902
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:55,560
<font color="

903
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:59,920
It's allowable to be sad,
to be...or happy, to find humour

904
00:56:59,920 --> 00:57:03,000
in something you shouldn't find
humour in because it's like a

905
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:06,000
safety valve.
And that's what we are.

906
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:10,400
Try and find a way to come to terms
<font color="

907
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:13,720
mystery of being alive,
but also the mortality.

908
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:19,040
And for me, art should deal
with those, the great mysteries.

909
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:22,080
And that's why we thought life
and art are inseparable.

910
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:27,000
You know, it's not just random and
<font color="

911
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:30,760
but I can't explain why
I believe that or why.

912
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:32,280
To me, you just know.