Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated:
1
00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:13,000
Sync by flensost
2
00:00:20,154 --> 00:00:22,240
Is this chart at a reasonable
height for you?
3
00:00:23,282 --> 00:00:24,325
Or do you want it lowered?
4
00:00:25,368 --> 00:00:27,453
- Fine.
- All right.
5
00:00:29,539 --> 00:00:30,540
Earlier tonight...
6
00:00:30,581 --> 00:00:33,709
Let me first ask the TV.
Are you ready?
7
00:00:33,751 --> 00:00:34,752
All set?
8
00:02:45,007 --> 00:02:47,093
Let me hear your voice level,
so it's the same.
9
00:02:47,135 --> 00:02:49,178
- How's my voice level?
- That's fine.
10
00:02:49,220 --> 00:02:50,221
Terrific.
11
00:02:51,264 --> 00:02:54,350
Now, I remember exactly
the sentence I left off on.
12
00:02:54,392 --> 00:02:57,520
I remember how it started,
and I was cut off in the middle.
13
00:02:58,563 --> 00:02:59,564
You can fix it up.
14
00:02:59,605 --> 00:03:03,776
I don't want to go back, because
I know exactly what I wanted to say.
15
00:03:03,818 --> 00:03:04,819
- Go ahead!
- Okay.
16
00:03:05,862 --> 00:03:10,032
Any military commander
who is honest with himself...
17
00:03:10,074 --> 00:03:12,118
...or with those he's
speaking to will admit...
18
00:03:13,161 --> 00:03:16,289
...that he has made mistakes
in the application of military power.
19
00:03:17,331 --> 00:03:19,917
He's killed people, unnecessarily.
20
00:03:19,959 --> 00:03:22,503
His own troops or other troops.
21
00:03:22,545 --> 00:03:25,631
Through mistakes,
through errors of judgment.
22
00:03:25,673 --> 00:03:29,802
A hundred, or thousands, or tens of
thousands, maybe even 100,000.
23
00:03:29,844 --> 00:03:33,973
But he hasn't destroyed nations.
And the conventional wisdom is...
24
00:03:35,016 --> 00:03:38,144
...don't make the same mistake twice.
Learn from your mistakes.
25
00:03:38,186 --> 00:03:41,272
And we all do. Maybe we make
the same mistake three times...
26
00:03:41,314 --> 00:03:43,316
...but hopefully not four or five.
27
00:03:43,357 --> 00:03:45,943
There'll be no learning period
with nuclear weapons.
28
00:03:45,985 --> 00:03:48,571
Make one mistake
and you're gonna destroy nations.
29
00:03:57,955 --> 00:04:02,126
In my life, I've been part of wars.
30
00:04:05,254 --> 00:04:09,425
Three years in the U.S. Army
during World War II.
31
00:04:12,553 --> 00:04:15,681
Seven years as secretary of defense
during the Vietnam War.
32
00:04:19,852 --> 00:04:22,980
Thirteen years at the World Bank.
Across the world.
33
00:04:25,066 --> 00:04:27,109
At my age, 85...
34
00:04:27,151 --> 00:04:30,238
...I'm at an age
where I can look back...
35
00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:34,450
...and derive some conclusions
about my actions.
36
00:04:38,621 --> 00:04:42,250
My rule has been, "try to learn. "
37
00:04:42,291 --> 00:04:45,920
Try to understand what happened.
38
00:04:48,005 --> 00:04:51,134
Develop the lessons
and pass them on.
39
00:05:07,775 --> 00:05:10,903
This is the secretary of defense of
the United States, Robert McNamara.
40
00:05:11,946 --> 00:05:15,074
His department absorbs 10 percent
of the income of this country...
41
00:05:15,116 --> 00:05:17,118
...and over half of every tax dollar.
42
00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,246
His job has been called
the toughest in Washington...
43
00:05:20,288 --> 00:05:24,458
...and he is the most controversial
figure that has ever held the job.
44
00:05:24,500 --> 00:05:27,545
Walter Lippmann calls him both
the best secretary of defense...
45
00:05:27,587 --> 00:05:31,757
...and the first one to ever assert
civilian control over the military.
46
00:05:31,799 --> 00:05:35,928
His critics call him a "con man,"
"an IBM machine with legs"...
47
00:05:35,970 --> 00:05:38,014
..."an arrogant dictator. "
48
00:06:18,638 --> 00:06:21,724
Mr. Secretary, I've noticed
in several cabinet offices...
49
00:06:21,766 --> 00:06:26,979
...that little silver calendar thing there.
Can you explain that?
50
00:06:27,021 --> 00:06:31,150
Yes, this was given
by President Kennedy.
51
00:06:35,321 --> 00:06:38,449
...17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23...
52
00:06:39,492 --> 00:06:43,621
...24, 25, 26, 27, and finally 28,
were the dates...
53
00:06:43,663 --> 00:06:47,834
...when we literally look ed down
the gun barrel into nuclear war.
54
00:07:32,670 --> 00:07:34,755
Under a cloak of deceit...
55
00:07:35,798 --> 00:07:39,927
...the Soviet Union introduced
nuclear missiles...
56
00:07:40,970 --> 00:07:43,055
...into Cuba...
57
00:07:44,098 --> 00:07:46,184
...targeting 90 million Americans.
58
00:07:57,653 --> 00:08:00,781
The CIA said the warheads
had not been delivered yet.
59
00:08:02,867 --> 00:08:05,995
They thought 20 were coming
on a ship named the Poltava.
60
00:08:12,251 --> 00:08:16,380
We mobilized 180,000 troops.
61
00:08:16,422 --> 00:08:19,550
The first day's air attack
was planned at 1080 sorties...
62
00:08:19,592 --> 00:08:22,678
...a huge air attack.
63
00:09:21,028 --> 00:09:23,114
Kennedy was trying
to keep us out of war.
64
00:09:23,156 --> 00:09:25,199
I was trying to help him
keep us out of war.
65
00:09:26,242 --> 00:09:28,327
And General Curtis LeMay,
whom I served under...
66
00:09:29,370 --> 00:09:32,498
...as a matter of fact,
in World War II, was saying:
67
00:09:32,540 --> 00:09:36,669
" Let's go in.
Let's totally destroy Cuba. "
68
00:09:57,523 --> 00:10:00,610
On that critical Saturday,
October 27th...
69
00:10:00,651 --> 00:10:04,822
...we had two Khrushchev
messages in front of us.
70
00:10:05,865 --> 00:10:10,036
One had come in Friday night,
and it had been dictated...
71
00:10:10,077 --> 00:10:14,207
...by a man who was either drunk,
or under tremendous stress.
72
00:10:15,249 --> 00:10:19,420
Basically, he said, " If you'll
guarantee you won't invade Cuba...
73
00:10:19,462 --> 00:10:21,464
...we'll take the missiles out. "
74
00:10:21,506 --> 00:10:24,634
Then, before we could respond,
we had a second message...
75
00:10:24,675 --> 00:10:27,720
...that had been dictated
by a bunch of hard-liners.
76
00:10:28,763 --> 00:10:32,934
And it said, in effect, " If you attack...
77
00:10:32,975 --> 00:10:35,019
...we're prepared...
78
00:10:37,104 --> 00:10:39,148
...to confront you with
masses of military power. "
79
00:10:39,190 --> 00:10:43,361
So, what to do? We had the
soft message and the hard message.
80
00:10:44,403 --> 00:10:49,617
At the elbow of President Kennedy
was Tommy Thompson...
81
00:10:49,659 --> 00:10:52,703
...former U.S. Ambassador to Moscow.
82
00:10:52,745 --> 00:10:56,916
He and Jane, his wife, had lived with
Khrushchev and his wife on occasion.
83
00:10:56,958 --> 00:11:00,002
Tommy Thompson said,
" Mr. President...
84
00:11:00,044 --> 00:11:04,215
...I urge you to respond
to the soft message. "
85
00:11:05,258 --> 00:11:08,386
The president said to Tommy,
"We can't. That'll get us nowhere. "
86
00:11:09,428 --> 00:11:11,514
Tommy said,
" Mr. President, you're wrong. "
87
00:11:11,556 --> 00:11:14,642
Now, that takes a lot of guts.
88
00:11:40,710 --> 00:11:44,839
In Thompson's mind was this thought:
89
00:11:44,881 --> 00:11:48,009
" Khrushchev's gotten
himself in a hell of a fix. "
90
00:11:48,050 --> 00:11:50,011
He would then think to himself,
" My God...
91
00:11:50,052 --> 00:11:55,266
...if I can get out of this with a deal
that I can say to the Russian people:
92
00:11:55,308 --> 00:12:00,480
'Kennedy was going to destroy
Castro and I prevented it. "'
93
00:12:00,521 --> 00:12:03,608
Thompson, knowing Khrushchev
as he did, thought:
94
00:12:03,649 --> 00:12:04,650
" Khrushchev will accept that. "
95
00:12:05,693 --> 00:12:09,864
And Thompson was right.
That's what I call empathy.
96
00:12:10,907 --> 00:12:14,035
We must try to put ourselves
inside their skin...
97
00:12:14,076 --> 00:12:16,120
...and look at us
through their eyes...
98
00:12:16,162 --> 00:12:18,206
...just to understand
the thoughts...
99
00:12:19,248 --> 00:12:22,376
...that lie behind their decisions
and their actions.
100
00:12:28,633 --> 00:12:30,718
Khrushchev's advisors were saying:
101
00:12:31,761 --> 00:12:32,762
"There can be no deal...
102
00:12:32,804 --> 00:12:35,389
...unless you somewhat
reduce the pressure on us...
103
00:12:35,431 --> 00:12:38,017
...when you ask us to reduce
the pressure on you. "
104
00:12:39,060 --> 00:12:42,188
Also, we had attempted
to invade Cuba.
105
00:12:43,231 --> 00:12:46,359
Well, with the Bay of Pigs. That
undoubtedly influenced their thinking.
106
00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,402
I think that's correct.
107
00:12:48,444 --> 00:12:51,572
But more importantly, from a Cuban
and a Russian point of view...
108
00:12:52,615 --> 00:12:54,700
...they knew what, in a sense,
I really didn't know.
109
00:12:54,742 --> 00:12:56,744
We had attempted
to assassinate Castro...
110
00:12:56,786 --> 00:12:59,872
...under Eisenhower and Kennedy,
and later, under Johnson.
111
00:12:59,914 --> 00:13:05,127
And in addition to that, major voices
in the U.S. Were calling for invasion.
112
00:13:11,384 --> 00:13:14,470
In the first message,
Khrushchev said this:
113
00:13:17,598 --> 00:13:21,769
"We and you ought not pull
on the ends of a rope...
114
00:13:21,811 --> 00:13:24,897
...which you have tied
the knots of war.
115
00:13:28,025 --> 00:13:31,154
Because the more
the two of us pull...
116
00:13:32,196 --> 00:13:35,324
...the tighter the knot will be tied.
117
00:13:38,452 --> 00:13:41,581
And then it will be necessary
to cut that knot...
118
00:13:42,623 --> 00:13:47,837
...and what that would mean
is not for me to explain to you.
119
00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:54,093
I have participated in two wars
and know that war ends...
120
00:13:54,135 --> 00:13:57,221
...when it has rolled through
cities and villages...
121
00:13:57,263 --> 00:14:00,349
...everywhere sowing
death and destruction.
122
00:14:02,435 --> 00:14:05,563
For such is the logic of war.
123
00:14:07,648 --> 00:14:10,776
If people do not display wisdom...
124
00:14:10,818 --> 00:14:13,863
...they will clash like blind moles...
125
00:14:13,905 --> 00:14:18,075
...and then mutual annihilation
will commence. "
126
00:14:48,272 --> 00:14:51,400
I want to say,
and this is very important:
127
00:14:51,442 --> 00:14:54,487
At the end, we lucked out.
128
00:14:54,529 --> 00:14:57,615
It was luck that prevented nuclear war.
129
00:14:57,657 --> 00:15:00,785
We came that close
to nuclear war at the end.
130
00:15:00,827 --> 00:15:04,455
Rational individuals.
Kennedy was rational.
131
00:15:04,497 --> 00:15:08,042
Khrushchev was rational.
Castro was rational.
132
00:15:08,084 --> 00:15:12,255
Rational individuals came that close
to total destruction of their societies.
133
00:15:12,296 --> 00:15:15,383
And that danger exists today.
134
00:15:32,066 --> 00:15:37,280
The major lesson
of the Cuban Missile Crisis is this:
135
00:15:38,322 --> 00:15:42,493
The indefinite combination
of human fallibility...
136
00:15:42,535 --> 00:15:46,664
...and nuclear weapons
will destroy nations.
137
00:15:50,835 --> 00:15:52,879
Is it right and proper...
138
00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:59,177
...that today there are 7500 strategic
offensive nuclear warheads...
139
00:15:59,218 --> 00:16:02,263
...of which 2500
are on 15-minute alert...
140
00:16:03,306 --> 00:16:07,477
...to be launched by the decision
of one human being?
141
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:29,332
It wasn't until January, 1992...
142
00:16:29,373 --> 00:16:33,544
...in a meeting chaired by Castro
in Havana, Cuba...
143
00:16:33,586 --> 00:16:37,715
...that I learned
162 nuclear warheads...
144
00:16:38,758 --> 00:16:40,802
...including 90 tactical warheads...
145
00:16:40,843 --> 00:16:43,971
...were on the island at the time
in this critical moment of the crisis.
146
00:16:49,185 --> 00:16:51,229
I couldn't believe
what I was hearing...
147
00:16:51,270 --> 00:16:54,357
...and Castro got very angry with me,
because I said:
148
00:16:54,398 --> 00:16:57,527
" Mr. President, let's stop this meeting.
This is totally new to me.
149
00:16:57,568 --> 00:16:59,612
I'm not sure I got the translation right. "
150
00:17:00,655 --> 00:17:01,697
Mr. President,
I have three questions.
151
00:17:02,740 --> 00:17:04,826
Number one, did you know
the nuclear warheads were there?
152
00:17:05,868 --> 00:17:06,869
Number two, if you did...
153
00:17:06,911 --> 00:17:09,497
...would you have recommended
to Khrushchev...
154
00:17:09,539 --> 00:17:12,083
...in the face of a U.S. Attack,
that he use them?
155
00:17:12,124 --> 00:17:15,253
Three, if he had used them,
what would've happened to Cuba?
156
00:17:15,294 --> 00:17:17,296
He said, "One,
I knew they were there.
157
00:17:17,338 --> 00:17:19,423
Two, I would not have
recommended to Khrushchev.
158
00:17:20,466 --> 00:17:22,510
I did recommend to Khrushchev
they be used.
159
00:17:22,552 --> 00:17:25,680
Three, what would happen to Cuba?
It would've been totally destroyed. "
160
00:17:29,809 --> 00:17:31,894
That's how close we were.
161
00:17:33,980 --> 00:17:35,544
And he was willing to accept that?
162
00:17:35,579 --> 00:17:37,108
Yes... Oh, and he went on to say:
163
00:17:38,151 --> 00:17:41,237
" Mr. McNamara,
if you and President Kennedy...
164
00:17:41,279 --> 00:17:44,407
...had been in a similar situation,
that's what you would've done. "
165
00:17:44,448 --> 00:17:47,535
I said, " Mr. President, I hope to God
we would not have done it. "
166
00:17:48,578 --> 00:17:51,706
Pull the temple down on our heads?
My God!
167
00:17:55,877 --> 00:17:56,878
In a sense, we'd won.
168
00:17:56,919 --> 00:18:01,090
We got the missiles out without war.
169
00:18:03,176 --> 00:18:06,262
My deputy and I brought
the five chiefs over...
170
00:18:06,304 --> 00:18:09,432
...and we sat down with Kennedy.
And he said, "Gentlemen, we won.
171
00:18:09,474 --> 00:18:12,560
I don't want you ever to say it,
but you know we won, I know we won. "
172
00:18:13,603 --> 00:18:16,689
And LeMay said,
"Won? Hell, we lost!
173
00:18:16,731 --> 00:18:19,859
We should go in
and wipe them out today. "
174
00:18:24,030 --> 00:18:26,073
LeMay believed that ultimately...
175
00:18:26,115 --> 00:18:28,159
...we'd confront these people
with nuclear weapons.
176
00:18:28,201 --> 00:18:32,371
And by God, we better do it
when we have greater superiority...
177
00:18:32,413 --> 00:18:34,457
...than we will have in the future.
178
00:18:48,012 --> 00:18:53,184
At the time, we had a 17-to-1 strategic
advantage in nuclear numbers.
179
00:18:53,226 --> 00:18:57,355
We'd done 10 times
as many tests as they had.
180
00:18:58,397 --> 00:19:02,527
We were certain we could
retain that advantage...
181
00:19:02,568 --> 00:19:05,696
...if we limited the tests.
The chiefs were all opposed.
182
00:19:06,739 --> 00:19:07,782
They said, "The Soviets will cheat. "
183
00:19:08,825 --> 00:19:10,910
Well, I said, " How will they cheat?"
184
00:19:10,952 --> 00:19:12,995
You won't believe this,
but they said:
185
00:19:14,038 --> 00:19:17,166
"They'll test them behind the moon. "
186
00:19:18,209 --> 00:19:20,294
I said, "You're out of your mind. "
187
00:19:21,337 --> 00:19:23,422
That's absurd.
188
00:19:25,508 --> 00:19:29,137
It's almost impossible
for our people today...
189
00:19:29,178 --> 00:19:32,807
...to put themselves back
into that period.
190
00:19:33,850 --> 00:19:35,893
In my seven years as secretary...
191
00:19:35,935 --> 00:19:39,063
...we came within a hairsbreadth
of war with the Soviet Union...
192
00:19:40,106 --> 00:19:41,149
...on three different occasions.
193
00:19:42,191 --> 00:19:44,235
Twenty-four hours a day,
365 days a year...
194
00:19:44,277 --> 00:19:48,447
...for seven years as secretary
of defense, I lived the Cold War.
195
00:19:50,533 --> 00:19:55,746
During the Kennedy administration,
they designed a 100-megaton bomb.
196
00:19:55,788 --> 00:19:59,917
It was tested in the atmosphere.
I remember this.
197
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,088
Cold War? Hell, it was a hot war.
198
00:20:08,259 --> 00:20:13,431
I think the human race
needs to think more about killing...
199
00:20:13,473 --> 00:20:15,475
...about conflict.
200
00:20:15,516 --> 00:20:18,644
Is that what we want
in this 21st century?
201
00:20:49,926 --> 00:20:56,182
My earliest memory
is of a city exploding with joy.
202
00:20:56,224 --> 00:21:01,395
It was November 11, 1918.
I was 2 years old.
203
00:21:03,481 --> 00:21:07,652
You may not believe
that I have the memory, but I do.
204
00:21:07,693 --> 00:21:11,322
I remember the tops
of the streetcars...
205
00:21:11,364 --> 00:21:14,200
...being crowded
with human beings...
206
00:21:14,242 --> 00:21:17,036
...cheering and kissing
and screaming.
207
00:21:18,079 --> 00:21:20,164
End of World War I. We'd won.
208
00:21:22,250 --> 00:21:24,293
But also celebrating the belief...
209
00:21:24,335 --> 00:21:27,463
...of many Americans,
particularly Woodrow Wilson...
210
00:21:27,505 --> 00:21:29,549
...we'd fought a war
to end all wars.
211
00:21:32,677 --> 00:21:34,720
His dream was...
212
00:21:34,762 --> 00:21:38,891
...that the world could avoid
great wars in the future.
213
00:21:38,933 --> 00:21:43,062
Disputes among great nations
would be resolved.
214
00:21:47,233 --> 00:21:48,234
I also remember...
215
00:21:48,276 --> 00:21:51,404
...that I wasn't allowed to go outdoors
to play with my friends...
216
00:21:52,446 --> 00:21:54,490
...without wearing a mask.
217
00:21:54,532 --> 00:21:57,618
There was an ungodly flu epidemic.
218
00:21:57,660 --> 00:22:00,788
Large numbers of Americans
were dying, 600,000.
219
00:22:00,830 --> 00:22:03,916
And millions across the world.
220
00:22:16,429 --> 00:22:20,600
My class in the first grade was housed
in a shack, a wooden shack.
221
00:22:20,641 --> 00:22:22,643
But we had an absolutely
superb teacher.
222
00:22:22,685 --> 00:22:27,857
And this teacher gave a test
to the class every month...
223
00:22:27,899 --> 00:22:31,027
...and she re- seated the class
based on the results of that test.
224
00:22:32,069 --> 00:22:35,198
There were vertical rows, and she put
the person with the highest grade...
225
00:22:35,239 --> 00:22:37,241
...in the first seat
on the left-hand row.
226
00:22:37,283 --> 00:22:40,369
And I worked my tail off
to be in that first seat.
227
00:22:40,411 --> 00:22:43,539
Now, the majority of the classmates
were whites, Caucasians, so on.
228
00:22:43,581 --> 00:22:45,583
Wasps, if you will.
229
00:22:45,625 --> 00:22:51,881
But my competition for that first seat
were Chinese, Japanese and Jews.
230
00:22:51,923 --> 00:22:54,967
On Saturday and Sunday,
I played with my classmates.
231
00:22:55,009 --> 00:22:59,138
They went to their ethnic schools.
They learned their native language.
232
00:22:59,180 --> 00:23:00,223
They learned their culture, history.
233
00:23:01,224 --> 00:23:04,352
And they came back determined on
Monday to beat that damn Irishman.
234
00:23:04,393 --> 00:23:07,438
But they didn't do it very often.
235
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,651
One congressman called you "Mr.
L- Have-All-The-Answers McNamara. "
236
00:23:11,692 --> 00:23:13,694
And there's been suggestion
from some congressmen...
237
00:23:13,736 --> 00:23:16,864
...that you come up there,
in spite of their experience...
238
00:23:16,906 --> 00:23:19,992
...prepared to give them
lessons in things.
239
00:23:20,034 --> 00:23:20,993
Is that your attitude?
240
00:23:21,035 --> 00:23:25,206
No. Perhaps they don't know
how much I don't know.
241
00:23:25,248 --> 00:23:27,250
And there is much indeed.
242
00:23:27,291 --> 00:23:29,335
I do make a serious effort...
243
00:23:29,377 --> 00:23:34,590
...to prepare myself properly for these
congressional discussions.
244
00:23:34,632 --> 00:23:37,718
I suppose I spend, perhaps,
100 or 120 hours...
245
00:23:38,761 --> 00:23:40,805
...in testifying before
Congress each year.
246
00:23:40,847 --> 00:23:45,017
And each hour of testimony requires
three to four hours of preparation.
247
00:23:45,059 --> 00:23:49,188
What about the contention that your
attitude is sometimes arrogant?
248
00:23:50,231 --> 00:23:52,316
Have you ever been wrong, sir?
249
00:23:52,358 --> 00:23:54,360
Oh, yes, indeed. My heavens.
250
00:23:54,402 --> 00:23:56,988
I'm not gonna tell you
when I've been wrong.
251
00:23:57,029 --> 00:23:59,615
If you don't know,
I'm not going to tell you.
252
00:23:59,657 --> 00:24:00,658
Oh, on countless occasions.
253
00:24:04,829 --> 00:24:08,958
I applied to Stanford University.
I very much wanted to go.
254
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,128
But I couldn't afford it, so I lived
at home and I went to Berkeley.
255
00:24:12,170 --> 00:24:14,172
Fifty-two dollars a year tuition.
256
00:24:14,213 --> 00:24:17,341
I started Berkeley at the bottom
of the Depression.
257
00:24:17,383 --> 00:24:20,470
Twenty-five million males
were unemployed.
258
00:24:20,511 --> 00:24:21,471
Out of that class of 3500...
259
00:24:21,512 --> 00:24:25,641
...three elected to Phi Beta Kappa
at the end of sophomore year.
260
00:24:25,683 --> 00:24:29,812
Of those three, one became
a Rhodes Scholar, I went to Harvard...
261
00:24:29,854 --> 00:24:31,898
...the third went to work
for $65 a month...
262
00:24:31,939 --> 00:24:33,983
...and was damn happy
to have the job.
263
00:24:36,068 --> 00:24:38,654
The society was on the verge of...
264
00:24:38,696 --> 00:24:41,240
...I don't want to say revolution...
265
00:24:41,282 --> 00:24:45,453
...although, had Roosevelt not done
some of the things he did...
266
00:24:45,495 --> 00:24:48,539
...it could've become
far more violent.
267
00:24:48,581 --> 00:24:51,709
In any event, that was
what I was thrown into.
268
00:24:52,752 --> 00:24:54,837
I never heard of Plato and Aristotle...
269
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:57,965
...before I became
a freshman at Berkeley.
270
00:24:58,007 --> 00:25:00,051
And I remember the professor,
Lowenberg...
271
00:25:00,092 --> 00:25:02,157
...the freshman
philosophy professor...
272
00:25:02,192 --> 00:25:04,222
I couldn't wait
to go to another class.
273
00:25:16,734 --> 00:25:19,862
I took more philosophy courses,
particularly one in logic...
274
00:25:19,904 --> 00:25:21,948
...and one in ethics.
275
00:25:24,033 --> 00:25:27,119
Stress on values...
276
00:25:27,161 --> 00:25:30,289
...something beyond one's self...
277
00:25:30,331 --> 00:25:33,417
...and a responsibility to society.
278
00:25:36,546 --> 00:25:38,589
After graduating
University of California...
279
00:25:38,631 --> 00:25:41,759
...I went to Harvard Graduate School
of Business for two years...
280
00:25:41,801 --> 00:25:43,845
...and then I went back
to San Francisco.
281
00:25:46,973 --> 00:25:51,102
I began to court this young lady that
I'd met when we were 17...
282
00:25:51,144 --> 00:25:53,187
...in our first week at Berkeley:
283
00:25:54,230 --> 00:25:56,315
Margaret Craig.
284
00:25:57,358 --> 00:26:01,529
And I was making some progress
after eight or nine months.
285
00:26:02,572 --> 00:26:04,615
I proposed and she accepted.
286
00:26:04,657 --> 00:26:09,871
She went with her aunt and her mother
on a trip across the country.
287
00:26:09,912 --> 00:26:14,041
She telegraphed me,
" Must order engraved invitations...
288
00:26:14,083 --> 00:26:16,127
...to include your middle name,
what is it?"
289
00:26:16,169 --> 00:26:18,171
I wired back,
" My middle name is Strange. "
290
00:26:18,212 --> 00:26:21,299
She said,
" I know it's strange, but what is it?"
291
00:26:21,340 --> 00:26:25,511
Well, I mean, it is Strange.
It's Robert Strange McNamara.
292
00:26:32,810 --> 00:26:34,896
And it was a marriage
made in heaven.
293
00:26:38,024 --> 00:26:42,153
At the end of a year,
we had our first child.
294
00:26:42,195 --> 00:26:47,408
The delivery costs were $100,
and we paid that $10 a month.
295
00:26:48,451 --> 00:26:52,622
Those were some of the happiest
days of our lives.
296
00:26:53,664 --> 00:26:55,750
And then the war came.
297
00:27:05,134 --> 00:27:07,220
I'd been promoted
to assistant professor.
298
00:27:07,261 --> 00:27:09,305
I was the youngest at Harvard.
299
00:27:10,348 --> 00:27:14,477
And on a salary, by the way,
of $4000 a year.
300
00:27:18,648 --> 00:27:22,276
Harvard Business School's
market was drying up.
301
00:27:22,318 --> 00:27:25,905
The males were being drafted
or volunteering.
302
00:27:25,947 --> 00:27:29,575
So the dean, being farsighted,
brought back a government contract...
303
00:27:29,617 --> 00:27:33,246
...to establish an officer candidate
school for what was called...
304
00:27:33,287 --> 00:27:35,331
...Statistical Control
in the Air Force.
305
00:27:43,673 --> 00:27:46,801
We said, " Look, we're not gonna
take anybody you send up here.
306
00:27:46,843 --> 00:27:49,887
We're gonna select the people. "
307
00:27:49,929 --> 00:27:53,057
You have a punch card
for every human being...
308
00:27:53,099 --> 00:27:55,101
...brought into the Air Corps.
309
00:27:55,143 --> 00:27:59,313
We're gonna run those punch cards
through the IBM sorting machines...
310
00:27:59,355 --> 00:28:03,484
...and we're gonna sort on age,
education, accomplishment...
311
00:28:04,527 --> 00:28:06,612
...grades, et cetera.
312
00:28:08,698 --> 00:28:11,826
We were looking for the best
and the brightest.
313
00:28:11,868 --> 00:28:14,954
The best brains,
the greatest capacity to lead...
314
00:28:14,996 --> 00:28:17,039
...the best judgment.
315
00:28:28,509 --> 00:28:30,595
The U.S. Was just beginning to bomb.
316
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,724
We were bombing by daylight.
317
00:28:34,765 --> 00:28:37,852
The loss rate was very, very high.
318
00:28:39,937 --> 00:28:43,065
So they commissioned a study.
And what did we find?
319
00:28:44,108 --> 00:28:46,194
We found the abort rate
was 20 percent.
320
00:28:47,236 --> 00:28:48,279
Twenty percent of the planes
leaving England...
321
00:28:49,322 --> 00:28:52,450
...to bomb Germany turned around
before they got to the target.
322
00:28:52,492 --> 00:28:55,578
That was a hell of a mess.
We lost 20 percent of our capability.
323
00:28:56,621 --> 00:28:58,664
I think it was called Form 1-A...
324
00:28:58,706 --> 00:29:00,792
...or something like that
was a mission report.
325
00:29:01,834 --> 00:29:03,920
And if you aborted a mission,
you had to write down why.
326
00:29:04,962 --> 00:29:07,048
So we get all these things
and we analyze them...
327
00:29:08,090 --> 00:29:09,133
...and we finally concluded:
328
00:29:10,176 --> 00:29:12,220
It was baloney.
329
00:29:12,261 --> 00:29:14,305
They were aborting out of fear.
330
00:29:14,347 --> 00:29:17,475
Because the loss rate
was four percent per sortie.
331
00:29:17,517 --> 00:29:19,519
The combat tour
was 25 sorties.
332
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:21,604
It didn't mean 100 percent
would die...
333
00:29:21,646 --> 00:29:24,774
...but a lot of them were gonna be
killed. They knew that...
334
00:29:24,816 --> 00:29:27,902
...and they found reasons
to not go over the target.
335
00:29:28,945 --> 00:29:32,073
So we reported this.
336
00:29:37,286 --> 00:29:39,372
One of the commanders
was Curtis LeMay.
337
00:29:39,413 --> 00:29:43,501
Colonel in command of a B-24 group.
338
00:29:43,543 --> 00:29:47,713
He was the finest combat commander
of any service I came across in war.
339
00:29:47,755 --> 00:29:51,884
But he was extraordinarily belligerent,
many thought brutal.
340
00:29:51,926 --> 00:29:54,971
He got the report.
He issued an order.
341
00:29:55,012 --> 00:29:58,141
He said, " I will be in the
lead plane on every mission.
342
00:29:58,182 --> 00:30:01,227
Any plane that takes off
will go over the target...
343
00:30:01,269 --> 00:30:03,312
...or the crew will be
court-martialed. "
344
00:30:03,354 --> 00:30:05,398
The abort rate dropped overnight.
345
00:30:07,483 --> 00:30:09,569
Now, that's the kind
of a commander he was.
346
00:30:11,654 --> 00:30:15,825
Ladies and gentlemen,
the president of the United States.
347
00:30:16,868 --> 00:30:19,453
My friends, on this Christmas Eve...
348
00:30:19,495 --> 00:30:22,039
...there are over 10 million men...
349
00:30:22,081 --> 00:30:27,295
...in the Armed Forces of
the United States alone.
350
00:30:27,336 --> 00:30:32,467
One year ago,
1, 700, 000 were serving overseas.
351
00:30:32,508 --> 00:30:38,764
By next July first, that number
will rise to over five million.
352
00:30:39,807 --> 00:30:45,021
Plenty of bad news for the Japs
in the not-too-far-distant future.
353
00:31:04,832 --> 00:31:09,003
The U.S. Air Force had a new
airplane, named the B-29.
354
00:31:16,302 --> 00:31:22,517
The B-17 s and B-24s in Europe
bombed from 15, 16,000 feet.
355
00:31:24,602 --> 00:31:27,730
The problem was that they
were subject to antiaircraft fire...
356
00:31:27,772 --> 00:31:29,816
...and to fighter aircraft.
357
00:31:30,858 --> 00:31:33,986
To relieve that, this B-29
was being developed...
358
00:31:34,028 --> 00:31:36,030
...that bombed from high altitude...
359
00:31:36,072 --> 00:31:41,285
...and it was thought we could destroy
targets more efficiently and effectively.
360
00:31:48,584 --> 00:31:50,670
I was brought back
from the 8th Air Force...
361
00:31:51,712 --> 00:31:55,883
...and assigned to the first B-29s,
the 58th Bomb Wing.
362
00:31:56,926 --> 00:32:02,140
We had to fly those planes from
the bases in Kansas to India.
363
00:32:03,182 --> 00:32:07,353
Then we had to fly fuel
over the hump into China.
364
00:32:26,122 --> 00:32:31,335
The airfields were built
with Chinese labor.
365
00:32:33,421 --> 00:32:35,506
It was an insane operation.
366
00:32:39,677 --> 00:32:42,805
I can still remember them
hauling these huge rollers...
367
00:32:43,848 --> 00:32:46,934
...to crush the stone
and make them flat.
368
00:32:49,020 --> 00:32:51,105
Somebody would slip,
the roller would roll over him...
369
00:32:51,147 --> 00:32:54,233
...everybody would
laugh and go on.
370
00:32:57,361 --> 00:32:59,405
We were supposed
to take these B-29s...
371
00:32:59,447 --> 00:33:02,575
There were no tanker aircraft there.
We were to fill them with fuel...
372
00:33:03,618 --> 00:33:06,746
...fly from India to Chengdu,
offload the fuel, fly back to India...
373
00:33:06,788 --> 00:33:10,875
...make enough missions
to build up fuel in Chengdu...
374
00:33:10,917 --> 00:33:16,130
...fly to Yawata, Japan, bomb
the steel mills and go back to India.
375
00:33:17,173 --> 00:33:21,344
We had so little training on this
problem of maximizing efficiency...
376
00:33:22,386 --> 00:33:25,515
...we actually found, to get
some of the B-29s back...
377
00:33:25,556 --> 00:33:28,643
...instead of offloading fuel,
they had to take it on.
378
00:33:31,771 --> 00:33:34,899
To make a long story short,
it wasn't worth a damn.
379
00:33:35,942 --> 00:33:39,070
And it was LeMay who really came to
that conclusion and led the chiefs...
380
00:33:39,111 --> 00:33:43,241
...to move the whole thing to the
Marianas, which devastated Japan.
381
00:34:26,993 --> 00:34:30,121
LeMay was focused
on only one thing:
382
00:34:31,164 --> 00:34:33,249
Target destruction.
383
00:34:35,334 --> 00:34:38,463
Most Air Force generals can say
how many planes they had...
384
00:34:38,504 --> 00:34:41,591
...how many tons of bombs they
dropped, or whatever it was.
385
00:34:41,632 --> 00:34:43,634
But he was the only person
that I knew...
386
00:34:43,676 --> 00:34:47,847
...in the senior command in the
Air Force who focused solely...
387
00:34:47,889 --> 00:34:52,018
...on the loss of his crews
per unit of target destruction.
388
00:34:56,189 --> 00:35:02,445
I was on the island of Guam,
in his command, in March of 1945.
389
00:35:03,488 --> 00:35:07,658
In that single night,
we burned to death...
390
00:35:07,700 --> 00:35:11,829
...100,000 Japanese civilians
in Tokyo.
391
00:35:11,871 --> 00:35:13,915
Men, women and children.
392
00:35:17,043 --> 00:35:20,171
Were you aware this was
going to happen?
393
00:35:22,256 --> 00:35:23,299
Well, I was...
394
00:35:24,342 --> 00:35:29,555
...part of a mechanism that,
in a sense, recommended it.
395
00:35:44,111 --> 00:35:48,282
I analyzed bombing operations,
and how to make them more efficient.
396
00:35:48,324 --> 00:35:51,410
I.e., not more efficient in the sense of
killing more...
397
00:35:51,452 --> 00:35:55,581
...but more efficient
in weakening the adversary.
398
00:35:58,709 --> 00:36:02,839
I wrote one report analyzing...
399
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,008
...the efficiency
of the B-29 operations.
400
00:36:07,051 --> 00:36:11,222
The B-29 could get above the fighter
aircraft and above the air defense...
401
00:36:11,264 --> 00:36:13,266
...so the loss rate
would be much less.
402
00:36:13,307 --> 00:36:17,478
The problem was, the accuracy
was also much less.
403
00:36:28,948 --> 00:36:32,076
Now, I don't want to suggest
that it was my report...
404
00:36:32,118 --> 00:36:35,204
...that led to...
I'll call it the firebombing.
405
00:36:38,332 --> 00:36:41,461
It isn't that I'm absolving myself
of blame for the firebombing.
406
00:36:41,502 --> 00:36:43,546
I don't want to suggest that it was I...
407
00:36:43,588 --> 00:36:45,631
...that put in LeMay's mind...
408
00:36:46,674 --> 00:36:48,759
...that his operations
were totally inefficient...
409
00:36:49,802 --> 00:36:53,973
...and had to be drastically changed.
But, anyhow, that's what he did.
410
00:36:54,015 --> 00:36:57,602
He took the B-29s
down to 5000 feet...
411
00:36:57,643 --> 00:37:01,230
...and he decided to bomb
with firebombs.
412
00:37:21,042 --> 00:37:23,085
I participated in the interrogation...
413
00:37:23,127 --> 00:37:27,298
...of the B-29 bomber crews
that came back that night.
414
00:37:27,340 --> 00:37:31,469
A room full of crewmen
and intelligence interrogators.
415
00:37:31,511 --> 00:37:33,513
A captain got up,
a young captain said:
416
00:37:33,554 --> 00:37:36,641
"Goddamn it, I'd like to know who
the son of a bitch was...
417
00:37:36,682 --> 00:37:41,896
...that took this magnificent airplane,
designed to bomb from 23,000 feet...
418
00:37:41,938 --> 00:37:46,067
...and he took it down to 5000 feet,
and I lost my wingman.
419
00:37:46,108 --> 00:37:47,109
He was shot and killed. "
420
00:37:49,195 --> 00:37:52,323
LeMay spoke in monosyllables.
421
00:37:52,365 --> 00:37:54,367
I never heard him say...
422
00:37:54,408 --> 00:37:56,452
...more than two words in sequence.
423
00:37:56,494 --> 00:38:00,623
It was basically, "Yes," " No," "Yep"...
424
00:38:00,665 --> 00:38:04,836
..."That's all," or " Hell with it. "
That was all he said.
425
00:38:05,878 --> 00:38:09,006
And LeMay was totally intolerant
of criticism.
426
00:38:09,048 --> 00:38:12,135
He never engaged in discussion
with anybody.
427
00:38:13,177 --> 00:38:15,221
He stood up.
428
00:38:15,263 --> 00:38:17,348
"Why are we here?
429
00:38:17,390 --> 00:38:19,433
Why are we here?
430
00:38:20,434 --> 00:38:23,563
You lost your wingman.
It hurts me as much as...
431
00:38:24,605 --> 00:38:26,149
...it does you.
432
00:38:26,190 --> 00:38:27,733
I sent him there.
433
00:38:28,776 --> 00:38:30,862
And I've been there,
I know what it is.
434
00:38:30,903 --> 00:38:33,489
But you lost one wingman...
435
00:38:33,531 --> 00:38:36,075
...and we destroyed Tokyo. "
436
00:38:42,331 --> 00:38:45,460
Fifty square miles of Tokyo
were burned.
437
00:38:46,502 --> 00:38:48,588
Tokyo was a wooden city,
and when we dropped firebombs...
438
00:38:49,630 --> 00:38:51,716
...it just burned it.
439
00:39:38,638 --> 00:39:41,766
The choice of incendiary bombs...
440
00:39:41,801 --> 00:39:44,852
...where did that come from?
441
00:39:45,895 --> 00:39:47,939
I think the issue...
442
00:39:47,980 --> 00:39:51,108
...is not so much incendiary bombs.
I think the issue is...
443
00:39:52,151 --> 00:39:55,279
...in order to win, should you kill
100,000 people in one night?
444
00:39:55,321 --> 00:39:56,280
By firebombing or any other way?
445
00:39:56,322 --> 00:39:59,450
LeMay's answer would be,
clearly, "Yes. "
446
00:39:59,492 --> 00:40:00,493
" McNamara, do you mean to say...
447
00:40:01,536 --> 00:40:02,578
...that instead of killing 100,000...
448
00:40:03,621 --> 00:40:06,749
...burning to death 100,000 Japanese
civilians in that one night...
449
00:40:06,791 --> 00:40:09,877
...we should have burned to death
a lesser number or none?
450
00:40:09,919 --> 00:40:13,005
And then had our soldiers
cross the beaches in Tokyo...
451
00:40:13,047 --> 00:40:15,049
...and been slaughtered
in tens of thousands?
452
00:40:15,091 --> 00:40:18,219
Is that what you're proposing?
Is that moral? Is that wise?"
453
00:40:18,261 --> 00:40:21,347
Why was it necessary to drop
the nuclear bomb...
454
00:40:21,389 --> 00:40:23,391
...if LeMay was burning up Japan?
455
00:40:23,432 --> 00:40:27,562
And he went on from Tokyo
to firebomb other cities.
456
00:40:27,603 --> 00:40:30,731
58 percent of Yokohama. Yokohama
is roughly the size of Cleveland.
457
00:40:31,774 --> 00:40:33,860
58 percent of Cleveland destroyed.
458
00:40:35,945 --> 00:40:40,116
Tokyo is roughly the size of New York.
51 percent of New York destroyed.
459
00:40:41,159 --> 00:40:44,287
99 percent of the equivalent
of Chattanooga, which was Toyama.
460
00:40:45,329 --> 00:40:49,500
40 percent of the equivalent
of Los Angeles, which was Nagoya.
461
00:40:51,586 --> 00:40:53,671
This was all done before...
462
00:40:54,714 --> 00:40:55,756
...the dropping
of the nuclear bomb.
463
00:40:56,799 --> 00:41:00,970
Which, by the way, was dropped
by LeMay's command.
464
00:41:03,055 --> 00:41:06,184
Proportionality should
be a guideline in war.
465
00:41:30,124 --> 00:41:33,211
Killing 50 to 90 percent...
466
00:41:33,252 --> 00:41:36,339
...of the people
in 67 Japanese cities...
467
00:41:36,380 --> 00:41:39,509
...and then bombing them
with two nuclear bombs...
468
00:41:40,551 --> 00:41:43,679
...is not proportional,
in the minds of some people...
469
00:41:43,721 --> 00:41:46,808
...to the objectives
we were trying to achieve.
470
00:42:03,491 --> 00:42:06,619
I don't fault Truman
for dropping the nuclear bomb.
471
00:42:07,662 --> 00:42:09,747
The U.S. -Japanese War was
one of the most brutal wars...
472
00:42:10,790 --> 00:42:11,833
...in all of human history.
473
00:42:12,875 --> 00:42:16,003
Kamikaze pilots, suicide,
unbelievable.
474
00:42:17,046 --> 00:42:18,047
What one can criticize...
475
00:42:18,089 --> 00:42:21,175
...is that the human race
prior to that time and today...
476
00:42:21,217 --> 00:42:26,430
...has not really grappled with
what are, I'll call it "the rules of war. "
477
00:42:26,472 --> 00:42:30,601
Was there a rule then that said you
shouldn't bomb, shouldn't kill...
478
00:42:30,643 --> 00:42:33,688
...shouldn't burn to death 100,000
civilians in a night?
479
00:42:35,773 --> 00:42:37,817
LeMay said, " If we'd lost the war...
480
00:42:37,859 --> 00:42:40,987
...we'd all have been prosecuted
as war criminals. "
481
00:42:41,028 --> 00:42:43,072
And I think he's right.
482
00:42:45,158 --> 00:42:48,244
He, and I'd say I...
483
00:42:48,286 --> 00:42:50,371
...were behaving as war criminals.
484
00:42:54,542 --> 00:42:58,713
LeMay recognized
that what he was doing...
485
00:42:58,754 --> 00:43:01,841
...would be thought immoral...
486
00:43:01,883 --> 00:43:03,926
...if his side had lost.
487
00:43:06,012 --> 00:43:09,140
But what makes it immoral if you lose
and not immoral if you win?
488
00:45:36,078 --> 00:45:40,249
At some point, we have to approach
Vietnam, and I want to know...
489
00:45:40,291 --> 00:45:42,335
...how you can best
set that up for me.
490
00:45:42,376 --> 00:45:44,420
Yeah, well...
491
00:45:45,463 --> 00:45:49,634
...that's a hard, hard question.
I think...
492
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,890
I think we have to approach it
in the context of the Cold War.
493
00:45:55,932 --> 00:45:58,518
But first I'll have to talk about Ford.
494
00:45:58,559 --> 00:46:01,103
I've got to go back
to the end of the war.
495
00:46:13,616 --> 00:46:16,702
I had a terrible headache...
496
00:46:16,744 --> 00:46:20,915
...so Marg drove me in
to the Air Force regional hospital.
497
00:46:20,957 --> 00:46:23,000
A week later, Marg came in...
498
00:46:24,043 --> 00:46:26,087
...many of the same symptoms.
499
00:46:26,129 --> 00:46:30,299
It's hard to believe, and I don't think
I've heard of another case...
500
00:46:30,341 --> 00:46:32,343
...where two individuals,
husband and wife...
501
00:46:32,385 --> 00:46:35,513
...came down, essentially,
at the same time with polio.
502
00:46:36,556 --> 00:46:40,726
We were both in the hospital
on V-J Day.
503
00:46:43,813 --> 00:46:44,814
A friend of mine said:
504
00:46:44,856 --> 00:46:47,942
"We're gonna find a corporation
in America that needs...
505
00:46:47,984 --> 00:46:51,112
...the advice and capabilities
of this extraordinary group...
506
00:46:51,154 --> 00:46:53,156
...I'm forming and you gotta be in it. "
507
00:46:53,197 --> 00:46:56,325
I said, "To hell with it.
I'm going back to Harvard.
508
00:46:57,368 --> 00:46:59,454
Marg and I wanna do that.
I'm gonna spend my life there. "
509
00:47:00,496 --> 00:47:03,624
He said, " Look, Bob,
you can't pay Marg's hospital bills.
510
00:47:03,666 --> 00:47:05,668
You're crazy as hell. "
He said, " By the way...
511
00:47:05,710 --> 00:47:09,839
...the company that most needs
our help in all the U.S. Is Ford. "
512
00:47:09,881 --> 00:47:13,009
I said, " How'd you learn that?"
" I read an article in Life magazine. "
513
00:47:15,094 --> 00:47:17,138
Of the top 1000 executives at Ford...
514
00:47:17,180 --> 00:47:20,308
...I don't believe there were
10 college graduates...
515
00:47:21,350 --> 00:47:23,436
...and Henry Ford II needed help.
516
00:47:25,521 --> 00:47:27,607
They were gonna give us tests.
517
00:47:27,648 --> 00:47:29,650
Two full days of testing...
518
00:47:29,692 --> 00:47:33,863
...intelligence tests, achievement tests,
personality tests, you name it.
519
00:47:33,905 --> 00:47:38,034
This sounds absurd, but I remember
a question on one of the tests was:
520
00:47:38,075 --> 00:47:42,205
"Would you rather be a florist
or a coal miner?"
521
00:47:44,290 --> 00:47:46,375
I had been a florist.
I worked as a florist...
522
00:47:46,417 --> 00:47:48,461
...during some of my
Christmas vacations.
523
00:47:49,504 --> 00:47:53,674
I put down coal miner.
I think the reasons are obvious to you.
524
00:47:54,717 --> 00:47:57,845
This group of 10 people
had been trained...
525
00:47:57,887 --> 00:48:00,932
...in the officer candidate school
at Harvard.
526
00:48:00,973 --> 00:48:05,144
In some tests we had the highest
marks that had ever been scored.
527
00:48:05,186 --> 00:48:09,273
In other tests, we were in the upper
one percentile.
528
00:48:15,530 --> 00:48:18,658
From 1926 to 1946,
including the war years...
529
00:48:18,699 --> 00:48:21,786
...Ford Motor Company
just barely broke even.
530
00:48:22,829 --> 00:48:24,914
It was a God-awful mess.
531
00:48:28,042 --> 00:48:31,170
I thought we had a responsibility
to the stockholders...
532
00:48:32,213 --> 00:48:37,426
...and God knows you cannot believe
how bad the situation had been.
533
00:48:55,153 --> 00:48:57,238
They had no market research
organization. I set one up.
534
00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:59,323
Manager said,
"What do you want studied?"
535
00:49:00,366 --> 00:49:02,452
I said, " Find out who's
buying Volkswagens.
536
00:49:02,493 --> 00:49:04,495
Everybody says it's a no-good car.
537
00:49:04,537 --> 00:49:06,622
It was only selling about
20,000 a year...
538
00:49:07,665 --> 00:49:09,750
...but I want to know
what's gonna happen.
539
00:49:09,792 --> 00:49:11,836
Is it gonna stay the same,
go down, or go up?
540
00:49:11,878 --> 00:49:12,879
Find out who buys them. "
541
00:49:13,921 --> 00:49:15,965
He came back six months later,
he said:
542
00:49:16,007 --> 00:49:20,178
"Well, they're professors, and they're
doctors and they're lawyers...
543
00:49:20,219 --> 00:49:23,264
...and they're obviously people
who can afford more. "
544
00:49:23,306 --> 00:49:26,434
Well, that set me to thinking about
what we in the industry should do.
545
00:49:27,477 --> 00:49:29,520
Was there a market we were missing?
546
00:49:30,563 --> 00:49:34,734
At this time nobody believed
Americans wanted cheaper cars.
547
00:49:34,775 --> 00:49:37,862
They wanted
conspicuous consumption.
548
00:49:38,905 --> 00:49:41,991
Cadillac, with these huge,
ostentatious fins...
549
00:49:42,033 --> 00:49:45,161
...set the style for the industry
for 10 or 15 years.
550
00:49:47,246 --> 00:49:49,332
And that's what we were up against.
551
00:49:52,460 --> 00:49:55,588
We introduced the Falcon
as a more economical car...
552
00:49:55,630 --> 00:49:59,759
...and it was a huge success
profit-wise.
553
00:50:03,930 --> 00:50:06,015
We accomplished a lot.
554
00:50:21,656 --> 00:50:24,784
I said, "What about accidents?
I hear a lot about accidents. "
555
00:50:24,826 --> 00:50:27,912
"Oh, yes, we'll get you
some data on that. "
556
00:50:32,083 --> 00:50:37,296
There were about 40,000 deaths
per year from automobile accidents...
557
00:50:37,338 --> 00:50:39,382
...and about a million,
or a million-two injuries.
558
00:50:40,424 --> 00:50:42,510
I said, "What causes it?"
" It's obvious.
559
00:50:42,552 --> 00:50:44,595
It's human error
and mechanical failure. "
560
00:50:45,638 --> 00:50:48,766
I said, " If it's mechanical,
we might be involved. Find out.
561
00:50:48,808 --> 00:50:51,853
If it's mechanical failure,
I want to stop it. "
562
00:50:51,894 --> 00:50:54,981
Well, he said, "There's really
very few statistics available. "
563
00:50:55,022 --> 00:50:58,067
I said, " Damn it, find out
what can we learn. "
564
00:50:58,109 --> 00:51:01,237
"The only place we can find
that knows anything about it...
565
00:51:01,279 --> 00:51:02,280
...is Cornell Aeronautical Labs. "
566
00:51:03,322 --> 00:51:05,366
They said,
"The major problem is packaging. "
567
00:51:05,408 --> 00:51:08,536
They said, "You buy eggs and you
know how eggs come in a carton?"
568
00:51:08,578 --> 00:51:10,580
I said, " I don't buy eggs.
My wife does it. "
569
00:51:10,621 --> 00:51:14,792
They said, "Well, you ask her,
when she puts that carton down...
570
00:51:14,834 --> 00:51:18,963
...on the drain board when she gets
home, do the eggs break?"
571
00:51:19,005 --> 00:51:21,007
I asked Marg and she said no.
572
00:51:21,048 --> 00:51:24,177
Cornell said, "That's because
they're packaged properly.
573
00:51:24,218 --> 00:51:26,262
Now, if we packaged people in cars
the same way...
574
00:51:27,305 --> 00:51:29,390
...we could reduce the breakage. "
575
00:51:38,774 --> 00:51:41,861
We lacked lab facilities,
so we dropped human skulls...
576
00:51:41,903 --> 00:51:47,116
...in different packages, down the
stairwells of the dormitories at Cornell.
577
00:51:49,202 --> 00:51:53,372
Well, that sounds absurd,
but that guy was absolutely right.
578
00:51:54,415 --> 00:51:57,543
It was packaging
which could make the difference.
579
00:52:06,928 --> 00:52:12,141
In a crash, the driver was often
impaled on the steering wheel.
580
00:52:13,184 --> 00:52:18,356
The passenger was often injured
because he'd hit the windshield...
581
00:52:18,397 --> 00:52:21,484
...or the header bar,
or the instrument panel.
582
00:52:23,569 --> 00:52:27,740
So in the 1956 model Ford
we introduced steering wheels...
583
00:52:27,782 --> 00:52:29,826
...that prevented being impaled.
We introduced...
584
00:52:30,868 --> 00:52:33,996
...padded instrument panels,
and we introduced seat belts.
585
00:52:36,082 --> 00:52:39,210
We estimated if there would be
100 percent use of the seat belts...
586
00:52:39,252 --> 00:52:42,338
...we could save 20-odd thousand
lives a year.
587
00:52:43,381 --> 00:52:45,466
Everybody was opposed to it.
588
00:52:52,765 --> 00:52:55,893
You couldn't get people
to use seat belts.
589
00:52:55,935 --> 00:52:59,021
But those who did saved their lives.
590
00:53:16,747 --> 00:53:18,833
Now, let me jump ahead.
591
00:53:27,175 --> 00:53:29,260
It's July, 1960.
592
00:53:31,345 --> 00:53:34,474
John Bugas, vice president,
industrial relations...
593
00:53:34,515 --> 00:53:37,560
...clearly had his eyes on
becoming president.
594
00:53:37,602 --> 00:53:42,773
I'm the group vice president in charge
of all of the car divisions.
595
00:53:42,815 --> 00:53:45,902
Henry was a night owl.
He always wanted to go out.
596
00:53:45,943 --> 00:53:46,944
You know, it's 2 a. m. Or something.
597
00:53:47,987 --> 00:53:51,115
He said, " Come up, have a nightcap. "
" I don't want one, I'm going to bed. "
598
00:53:51,157 --> 00:53:55,286
John said, " I'll come up, Henry. "
" I didn't ask you. I asked Bob. "
599
00:53:55,328 --> 00:53:58,414
He said, " Bob, come on up. "
So I finally went up.
600
00:53:58,456 --> 00:54:00,500
That's when he asked me
to be president.
601
00:54:03,628 --> 00:54:06,756
I was the first president in the history
of the company...
602
00:54:07,799 --> 00:54:10,927
...that had ever been president other
than a member of the Ford family.
603
00:54:11,969 --> 00:54:14,055
And after five weeks, I quit.
604
00:54:26,567 --> 00:54:27,568
The telephone rang...
605
00:54:27,610 --> 00:54:30,738
...a person comes on and says:
" I'm Robert Kennedy.
606
00:54:30,780 --> 00:54:33,825
My brother, Jack Kennedy,
would like you...
607
00:54:33,866 --> 00:54:35,952
...to meet our brother- in-law,
Sergeant Shriver. "
608
00:54:36,994 --> 00:54:40,081
Four o'clock, Sarge comes in.
Never met him.
609
00:54:40,123 --> 00:54:44,252
And he said, " I've been authorized
by my brother- in-law...
610
00:54:44,293 --> 00:54:48,464
...Jack Kennedy, to offer you the
position of secretary of the treasury. "
611
00:54:48,506 --> 00:54:50,550
"You're crazy.
I know a little about finance...
612
00:54:50,591 --> 00:54:52,593
...but I'm not qualified
for that position. "
613
00:54:52,635 --> 00:54:55,763
"Anticipating you might say that,
the president-elect...
614
00:54:55,805 --> 00:54:58,891
...authorized me to offer you
the secretary of defense. "
615
00:54:58,933 --> 00:55:00,935
" I was in World War II for
three years...
616
00:55:00,977 --> 00:55:04,105
...but secretary of defense?
I'm not qualified for that. "
617
00:55:04,147 --> 00:55:06,107
He said, "Anticipating that...
618
00:55:06,149 --> 00:55:09,277
...would you do him the courtesy
of agreeing to meet with him?"
619
00:55:09,318 --> 00:55:12,363
So I go home. I meet with Marg.
620
00:55:12,405 --> 00:55:16,576
If I could appoint every senior official
in the department...
621
00:55:16,617 --> 00:55:19,203
...and if I was guaranteed
I wouldn't have to...
622
00:55:19,245 --> 00:55:21,747
...be part of that damn Washington
social world.
623
00:55:21,789 --> 00:55:25,960
She said, "Well, okay, why don't you
write a contract with the president...
624
00:55:26,002 --> 00:55:29,046
...and if he'll accept those
conditions, do it. "
625
00:55:29,088 --> 00:55:33,259
My total net worth at the time
was on the order of $800,000...
626
00:55:33,301 --> 00:55:36,929
...but I had huge unfulfilled
stock options worth millions.
627
00:55:36,971 --> 00:55:40,558
And I was one of the highest-paid
executives in the world.
628
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:42,643
And the future was brilliant.
629
00:55:44,729 --> 00:55:46,772
We had called our children in.
630
00:55:46,814 --> 00:55:49,942
Their life would be totally changed.
631
00:55:50,985 --> 00:55:55,156
The salary of a cabinet secretary then
was $25,000 a year.
632
00:55:55,198 --> 00:55:57,200
So we explained to the children...
633
00:55:57,241 --> 00:56:00,369
...they'd be giving up a few...
They could care less.
634
00:56:00,411 --> 00:56:02,455
Marg could care less.
635
00:56:08,711 --> 00:56:10,755
It was snowing.
636
00:56:10,797 --> 00:56:16,010
The Secret Service took me
in the house by the back way.
637
00:56:16,052 --> 00:56:19,096
I can still see it. There's a loveseat...
638
00:56:19,138 --> 00:56:22,266
...two armchairs with a lamp table
in between.
639
00:56:22,308 --> 00:56:24,310
Jack Kennedy is sitting in one...
640
00:56:24,352 --> 00:56:26,437
...and Bobby Kennedy's sitting
in the other.
641
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:31,609
" Mr. President, it's absurd.
I'm not qualified. "
642
00:56:32,652 --> 00:56:33,694
" Look, Bob... "
643
00:56:34,737 --> 00:56:37,865
He said, " I don't think there's any
school for presidents either.
644
00:56:40,993 --> 00:56:43,079
Let's announce it now.
I'll write the announcement. "
645
00:56:44,122 --> 00:56:47,208
So he wrote out the announcement,
we walk out the front door.
646
00:56:47,250 --> 00:56:51,420
All of these television cameras
and press, till hell wouldn't have it.
647
00:56:52,463 --> 00:56:53,506
That's how Marg learned
I had accepted.
648
00:56:54,549 --> 00:56:56,634
It was on television, live.
649
00:56:57,677 --> 00:57:00,805
All right, why don't we do some
pictures afterwards.
650
00:57:02,890 --> 00:57:04,934
I've asked Robert McNamara...
651
00:57:04,976 --> 00:57:09,105
...to assume the responsibilities
of secretary of defense.
652
00:57:09,147 --> 00:57:13,317
And I'm glad and happy to say that
he has accepted this responsibility.
653
00:57:13,359 --> 00:57:16,446
Mr. McNamara leaves the presidency
of the Ford company...
654
00:57:17,488 --> 00:57:19,574
...at great personal sacrifice.
655
00:57:20,616 --> 00:57:22,702
That's the way it began.
656
00:57:25,830 --> 00:57:28,416
You know, it was a traumatic period.
657
00:57:28,458 --> 00:57:31,002
My wife probably got ulcers from it...
658
00:57:31,043 --> 00:57:34,172
...may even ultimately have died from
the stress. My son got ulcers.
659
00:57:34,213 --> 00:57:36,257
It was very traumatic but...
660
00:57:37,300 --> 00:57:40,428
...they were some of the best years
of our life...
661
00:57:40,470 --> 00:57:43,556
...and all members of my family
benefited from it.
662
00:57:43,598 --> 00:57:45,641
It was terrific.
663
00:57:57,069 --> 00:57:59,113
October 2nd.
664
00:57:59,155 --> 00:58:02,283
I had returned from Vietnam.
665
00:58:03,326 --> 00:58:07,497
At that time, we had 16,000
military advisors.
666
00:58:09,582 --> 00:58:13,753
I recommended to President Kennedy
and to the Security Council...
667
00:58:13,795 --> 00:58:16,881
...that we establish a plan
and an objective...
668
00:58:16,923 --> 00:58:20,009
...of removing all of them within
two years.
669
00:58:56,504 --> 00:59:00,675
Kennedy announced we were going to
pull out all our military advisors...
670
00:59:00,716 --> 00:59:04,846
...by the end of '65, going to take 1000
out at the end of '63, and we did.
671
00:59:06,931 --> 00:59:11,102
But there was a coup
in South Vietnam.
672
00:59:13,187 --> 00:59:15,273
Diem was overthrown...
673
00:59:16,274 --> 00:59:18,359
...and he and his brother were killed.
674
00:59:20,445 --> 00:59:22,530
I was present with the President...
675
00:59:23,573 --> 00:59:26,701
...when together we received
information of that coup.
676
00:59:26,742 --> 00:59:28,786
I've never seen him...
677
00:59:29,829 --> 00:59:32,957
...more upset.
He totally blanched.
678
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:38,171
Kennedy and I had tremendous
problems with Diem, but my God...
679
00:59:38,212 --> 00:59:40,256
...he was the authority.
He was the head of state.
680
00:59:41,299 --> 00:59:44,385
And he was overthrown
by a military coup.
681
00:59:44,427 --> 00:59:47,555
And Kennedy knew and I knew,
that to some degree...
682
00:59:47,597 --> 00:59:50,683
...the U.S. Government was
responsible for that.
683
01:00:03,196 --> 01:00:07,325
I was in my office in the Pentagon...
684
01:00:07,366 --> 01:00:11,537
...when the telephone rang
and it was Bobby.
685
01:00:12,580 --> 01:00:15,708
The President had been shot
in Dallas.
686
01:00:19,879 --> 01:00:23,007
Perhaps 45 minutes later,
Bobby called again...
687
01:00:23,049 --> 01:00:25,092
...and said the president
was dead.
688
01:00:27,178 --> 01:00:30,306
Jackie would like me
to come out to the hospital.
689
01:00:31,349 --> 01:00:34,477
We took the body to the White House
about whatever it was, 4 a. M...
690
01:00:34,519 --> 01:00:38,648
...and called the superintendent
of Arlington Cemetery.
691
01:00:38,689 --> 01:00:40,691
And he and I...
692
01:00:43,820 --> 01:00:46,948
...walked over those grounds.
693
01:00:47,990 --> 01:00:53,204
They're hauntingly beautiful grounds.
694
01:00:53,246 --> 01:00:55,248
White crosses, row and row.
695
01:00:55,289 --> 01:00:59,460
And finally I thought I'd found
the exact spot...
696
01:00:59,502 --> 01:01:01,546
...the most beautiful spot
in the cemetery.
697
01:01:03,631 --> 01:01:04,674
I called Jackie at the White House...
698
01:01:05,716 --> 01:01:08,845
...and asked her to come out there.
She immediately accepted.
699
01:01:08,886 --> 01:01:10,930
And that's where the president
is buried today.
700
01:01:11,973 --> 01:01:17,186
A park service ranger came up to me
and said that he...
701
01:01:19,272 --> 01:01:21,357
He had...
702
01:01:23,443 --> 01:01:27,613
...escorted President Kennedy
on a tour of those grounds...
703
01:01:27,655 --> 01:01:29,198
...a few weeks before.
704
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:30,741
And Kennedy said...
705
01:01:31,784 --> 01:01:34,912
...that was the most
beautiful spot in Washington.
706
01:01:34,954 --> 01:01:36,998
That's where he's buried.
707
01:01:48,468 --> 01:01:50,553
I will do my best.
708
01:01:51,596 --> 01:01:55,224
That is all I can do.
709
01:01:55,266 --> 01:01:58,895
I ask for your help...
710
01:01:58,936 --> 01:02:00,980
...and God's.
711
01:04:48,773 --> 01:04:50,775
Make no bones of this.
712
01:04:50,817 --> 01:04:53,945
Don't try to sweep this under the rug.
713
01:04:53,986 --> 01:04:58,116
We are at war in Vietnam.
714
01:05:02,286 --> 01:05:03,287
And yet the president...
715
01:05:03,329 --> 01:05:07,458
...and his secretary of defense
continues to mislead...
716
01:05:07,500 --> 01:05:12,713
...and misinform the American people,
and enough of it's gone by.
717
01:05:37,738 --> 01:05:39,782
On August 2nd...
718
01:05:39,824 --> 01:05:42,952
...the destroyer Maddox reported it
was attacked...
719
01:05:42,994 --> 01:05:46,038
...by a North Vietnamese patrol boat.
720
01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:49,709
It was an act of aggression against us.
We were in international waters.
721
01:05:49,750 --> 01:05:53,379
I sent officials from the Defense
Department out and we recovered...
722
01:05:53,421 --> 01:05:56,507
...pieces of shells that were
clearly identified...
723
01:05:56,549 --> 01:05:58,593
...as North Vietnamese
from the Maddox's deck.
724
01:05:59,635 --> 01:06:01,721
So there was no question in my mind
that it had occurred.
725
01:06:01,762 --> 01:06:04,849
But, in any event, we didn't respond.
726
01:06:05,892 --> 01:06:07,935
And it was very difficult.
727
01:06:07,977 --> 01:06:10,021
It was difficult for the president.
728
01:06:10,062 --> 01:06:13,191
There were very, very senior people,
in uniform and out, who said:
729
01:06:13,232 --> 01:06:16,235
" My God, this president is... "
730
01:06:16,277 --> 01:06:19,405
They didn't use the word "coward,"
but in effect...
731
01:06:19,447 --> 01:06:22,533
..." He's not protecting
the national interest. "
732
01:06:34,003 --> 01:06:38,174
Two days later the Maddox and
the Turner Joy, two destroyers...
733
01:06:38,216 --> 01:06:40,259
...reported they were attacked.
734
01:06:49,644 --> 01:06:52,772
There were sonar soundings.
Torpedoes had been detected.
735
01:06:52,814 --> 01:06:55,900
Other indications of attack
from patrol boats.
736
01:06:56,943 --> 01:07:01,114
We spent 10 hours that day trying to
find out what the hell had happened.
737
01:07:02,156 --> 01:07:06,327
At one point the commander said,
"We're not certain of the attack. "
738
01:07:06,369 --> 01:07:08,371
Another point they said,
"We're positive. "
739
01:07:08,412 --> 01:07:10,498
Then finally, late in the day,
Admiral Sharp said:
740
01:07:10,540 --> 01:07:13,626
"Yes, we're certain it happened. "
741
01:07:14,669 --> 01:07:18,798
So I reported this to Johnson,
and as a result...
742
01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:24,053
...there were bombing attacks
on targets in North Vietnam.
743
01:07:37,567 --> 01:07:40,653
Johnson said,
"We may have to escalate.
744
01:07:40,695 --> 01:07:43,823
I'm not gonna do it without
Congressional authority. "
745
01:07:43,865 --> 01:07:46,909
And he put forward a resolution,
the language of which...
746
01:07:46,951 --> 01:07:52,165
...gave complete authority to
the president to take the nation to war:
747
01:07:52,206 --> 01:07:55,293
The Tonkin Gulf Resolution.
748
01:07:57,378 --> 01:08:01,549
Now, let me go back
to the August 4th attack.
749
01:09:08,241 --> 01:09:13,412
It was just confusion.
And events afterwards showed...
750
01:09:13,454 --> 01:09:17,625
...that our judgment that we'd been
attacked that day was wrong.
751
01:09:19,710 --> 01:09:20,753
It didn't happen.
752
01:09:24,924 --> 01:09:30,138
And the judgment that we'd been
attacked on August 2nd...
753
01:09:30,179 --> 01:09:33,266
...which we'd made, was right.
We had been.
754
01:09:33,307 --> 01:09:36,394
Although that was disputed
at the time.
755
01:09:37,436 --> 01:09:40,523
So we were right once
and wrong once.
756
01:09:40,565 --> 01:09:43,693
Ultimately, President Johnson
authorized bombing in response...
757
01:09:44,735 --> 01:09:46,779
...to what he thought
had been the second attack.
758
01:09:46,821 --> 01:09:50,992
It hadn't occurred, but that's irrelevant
to the point I'm making here.
759
01:09:51,033 --> 01:09:54,120
He authorized the attack on
the assumption it had occurred.
760
01:09:56,205 --> 01:09:59,333
And his belief that it was
a conscious decision...
761
01:10:00,376 --> 01:10:03,504
...by the North Vietnamese political
and military leaders...
762
01:10:03,546 --> 01:10:06,632
...to escalate the conflict...
763
01:10:07,675 --> 01:10:11,846
...and an indication they would
not stop short of winning.
764
01:10:16,017 --> 01:10:18,060
We were wrong.
765
01:10:18,102 --> 01:10:23,316
But we had in our minds
a mindset that led to that action.
766
01:10:24,358 --> 01:10:26,402
And it carried such heavy costs.
767
01:10:36,829 --> 01:10:42,043
We see incorrectly, or we see
only half of the story at times.
768
01:10:43,085 --> 01:10:47,256
- We see what we want to believe.
- You're absolutely right.
769
01:10:49,342 --> 01:10:51,427
Belief and seeing.
770
01:10:52,470 --> 01:10:54,555
They're both often wrong.
771
01:11:00,812 --> 01:11:06,025
We Americans know,
although others appear to forget...
772
01:11:06,067 --> 01:11:09,153
...the risk of spreading conflict.
773
01:11:10,196 --> 01:11:13,324
We still seek no wider war.
774
01:11:34,178 --> 01:11:36,222
We introduced " Rolling Thunder"...
775
01:11:36,264 --> 01:11:41,477
...which, over the years, became a
very, very heavy bombing program.
776
01:11:41,519 --> 01:11:44,605
Two to three times as many bombs
as were dropped...
777
01:11:44,647 --> 01:11:47,733
...on Western Europe during
all of World War II.
778
01:12:06,461 --> 01:12:09,547
This is not primarily
a military problem.
779
01:12:09,589 --> 01:12:14,802
It's a battle for the hearts and minds
of the people of South Vietnam.
780
01:12:15,845 --> 01:12:22,101
As a prerequisite, we must be able
to guarantee their physical security.
781
01:15:41,175 --> 01:15:44,303
It was announced today that total
American casualties in Vietnam...
782
01:15:44,345 --> 01:15:49,475
...now number 4877
including 748 killed.
783
01:15:49,517 --> 01:15:54,730
Secretary of Defense McNamara, on
each of his seven trips to Vietnam...
784
01:15:54,772 --> 01:15:57,859
...has found some positive aspect
of the course of the war.
785
01:15:57,900 --> 01:16:00,945
The most vivid impression
I'm bringing back is...
786
01:16:01,988 --> 01:16:03,030
...that we've stopped losing the war.
787
01:16:04,073 --> 01:16:07,201
The North Vietnamese, we believe,
have nine regiments of their army...
788
01:16:08,244 --> 01:16:12,373
Some of the men had a little training
in a park in Kentucky before coming.
789
01:16:12,415 --> 01:16:16,586
But it didn't prepare them for thick et
of trees, spiked vines, thorn bushes...
790
01:16:16,627 --> 01:16:21,299
...almost perpendicular cliffs,
90-degree temperatures, insects...
791
01:16:21,340 --> 01:16:25,928
This has changed from a nasty little
war to a nasty middle-sized war.
792
01:16:25,970 --> 01:16:31,184
The Vietnamese are still doing most
of the fighting and most of the dying...
793
01:16:32,226 --> 01:16:35,313
...but week after week,
American casualty figures go up.
794
01:16:35,354 --> 01:16:40,568
Now, America wins the wars that she
undertakes. Make no mistake about it.
795
01:16:41,611 --> 01:16:46,783
And we have declared war
on tyranny and aggression.
796
01:16:46,824 --> 01:16:50,995
If this little nation goes down the drain
and can't maintain independence...
797
01:16:51,037 --> 01:16:55,166
...ask yourself what's gonna happen
to all the other little nations.
798
01:17:35,790 --> 01:17:37,875
Let me go back one moment.
799
01:17:38,918 --> 01:17:43,047
In the Cuban Missile Crisis,
at the end...
800
01:17:43,089 --> 01:17:49,345
...I think we did put ourselves
in the skin of the Soviets.
801
01:17:50,388 --> 01:17:55,601
In the case of Vietnam, we didn't
know them well enough to empathize.
802
01:17:55,643 --> 01:17:58,729
And there was total misunderstanding
as a result.
803
01:17:59,772 --> 01:18:04,986
They believed we had simply replaced
the French as a colonial power...
804
01:18:05,027 --> 01:18:10,199
...and we were seeking to subject
South and North Vietnam...
805
01:18:10,241 --> 01:18:15,413
...to our colonial interests,
which was absolutely absurd.
806
01:18:15,455 --> 01:18:20,626
And we, we saw Vietnam as
an element of the Cold War.
807
01:18:20,668 --> 01:18:24,797
Not what they saw it as, a civil war.
808
01:18:36,267 --> 01:18:39,395
There aren't many examples...
809
01:18:40,438 --> 01:18:44,609
...in which you bring
two former enemies together...
810
01:18:45,651 --> 01:18:49,781
...at the highest levels,
and discuss what might have been.
811
01:18:51,866 --> 01:18:55,995
I formed the hypothesis
that each of us could have...
812
01:18:56,037 --> 01:19:00,208
...achieved our objectives
without the terrible loss of life.
813
01:19:01,250 --> 01:19:05,421
And I wanted to test that
by going to Vietnam.
814
01:19:07,507 --> 01:19:10,635
The former foreign minister
of Vietnam...
815
01:19:11,677 --> 01:19:15,848
...a wonderful man named Thach
said, "You're totally wrong.
816
01:19:16,891 --> 01:19:21,062
We were fighting for independence.
You were fighting to enslave us. "
817
01:19:23,147 --> 01:19:26,275
We almost came to blows.
That was noon on the first day.
818
01:19:28,361 --> 01:19:32,532
" Do you mean to say it was
not a tragedy for you...
819
01:19:32,573 --> 01:19:37,703
...when you lost 3,400,000
Vietnamese killed...
820
01:19:37,745 --> 01:19:41,916
...which on our population base is the
equivalent of 27 million Americans?
821
01:19:41,958 --> 01:19:42,959
What did you accomplish?
822
01:19:44,001 --> 01:19:47,130
You didn't get more than we were
willing to give at the start.
823
01:19:47,171 --> 01:19:50,258
You could've had the whole damn
thing: Independence, unification. "
824
01:19:52,343 --> 01:19:54,428
" Mr. McNamara, you must never
have read a history book.
825
01:19:55,471 --> 01:20:00,685
If you had, you'd know we weren't
pawns of the Chinese or the Russians.
826
01:20:00,726 --> 01:20:02,728
Didn't you know that?
827
01:20:02,770 --> 01:20:07,984
Don't you understand that we've been
fighting the Chinese for 1000 years?
828
01:20:08,025 --> 01:20:12,113
We were fighting for independence,
and we'd fight to the last man.
829
01:20:12,155 --> 01:20:13,114
We were determined to...
830
01:20:13,156 --> 01:20:17,326
...and no amount of bombing or U.S.
Pressure would've ever stopped us. "
831
01:20:35,052 --> 01:20:38,181
What makes us omniscient?
832
01:20:40,266 --> 01:20:42,351
Have we a record of omniscience?
833
01:20:47,565 --> 01:20:50,693
We are the strongest nation
in the world today.
834
01:20:51,736 --> 01:20:53,780
I do not believe we should ever...
835
01:20:53,821 --> 01:20:57,992
...apply that economic, political
or military power unilaterally.
836
01:21:00,077 --> 01:21:05,291
If we had followed that rule in Vietnam,
we wouldn't have been there.
837
01:21:09,462 --> 01:21:12,548
None of our allies supported us.
838
01:21:12,590 --> 01:21:15,718
Not Japan, not Germany,
not Britain or France.
839
01:21:19,889 --> 01:21:24,018
If we can't persuade nations
with comparable values...
840
01:21:24,060 --> 01:21:29,273
...of the merit of our cause,
we'd better re- examine our reasoning.
841
01:21:37,573 --> 01:21:42,245
Americans suffered the heaviest
casualties of the war last week.
842
01:21:42,286 --> 01:21:46,958
543 killed in action. Another 1247
were wounded and hospitalized.
843
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:52,171
The deaths raise the U.S. Total
in the war so far to 18, 239.
844
01:21:52,213 --> 01:21:56,342
South Vietnamese put their losses
for the week at 522 killed.
845
01:21:56,384 --> 01:21:58,386
Communist losses
were not reported.
846
01:21:58,427 --> 01:22:02,598
Contributing to those casualties has
been the Communist bombardment...
847
01:22:02,640 --> 01:22:04,642
...of the Marine outpost
at Khe Sanh.
848
01:22:04,684 --> 01:22:08,855
There, the North Vietnamese have
been tightening their ring around...
849
01:22:09,897 --> 01:22:11,983
The military expects
a full-scale assault.
850
01:22:39,093 --> 01:22:42,180
To what extent did you feel
that you were the author of stuff...
851
01:22:42,221 --> 01:22:47,435
...or that you were an instrument
of things outside of your control?
852
01:22:47,477 --> 01:22:50,521
Well, I don't think I felt either.
853
01:22:50,563 --> 01:22:55,777
I just felt that I was serving
at the request of a president...
854
01:22:55,818 --> 01:22:57,779
...who'd been elected
by the American people.
855
01:22:57,820 --> 01:23:02,992
And it was my responsibility
to try to help him...
856
01:23:03,034 --> 01:23:08,247
...to carry out the office as he believed
was in the interest of our people.
857
01:23:37,443 --> 01:23:43,699
What is morally appropriate
in a wartime environment?
858
01:23:48,913 --> 01:23:52,041
Let me give you an illustration.
859
01:23:58,297 --> 01:24:00,383
While I was secretary...
860
01:24:01,425 --> 01:24:05,596
...we used what's called
"Agent Orange" in Vietnam.
861
01:24:05,638 --> 01:24:09,767
A chemical that strips leaves
off of trees.
862
01:24:10,810 --> 01:24:16,023
After the war, it is claimed that
that was a toxic chemical...
863
01:24:16,065 --> 01:24:19,110
...and it killed many individuals...
864
01:24:19,152 --> 01:24:23,281
...soldiers and civilians
exposed to it.
865
01:24:24,323 --> 01:24:30,580
Were those who issued the approval
to use Agent Orange criminals?
866
01:24:30,621 --> 01:24:33,708
Were they committing a crime
against humanity?
867
01:24:35,793 --> 01:24:37,837
Let's look at the law.
868
01:24:37,879 --> 01:24:40,965
Now, what kind of law
do we have that says...
869
01:24:41,007 --> 01:24:45,178
...these chemicals are acceptable
in war and these chemicals are not.
870
01:24:45,219 --> 01:24:47,221
We don't have clear definitions
of that kind.
871
01:24:47,263 --> 01:24:53,519
I never in the world would have
authorized an illegal action.
872
01:24:54,562 --> 01:24:57,648
I'm not really sure I authorized
Agent Orange, I don't remember it.
873
01:24:57,690 --> 01:25:02,904
But it certainly occurred, the use
of it occurred while I was secretary.
874
01:25:21,672 --> 01:25:24,801
Norman Morrison was a Quaker.
875
01:25:25,843 --> 01:25:28,971
He was opposed to war,
the violence of war, the killing.
876
01:25:30,014 --> 01:25:36,270
He came to the Pentagon,
doused himself with gasoline.
877
01:25:38,356 --> 01:25:40,441
Burned himself to death
below my office.
878
01:25:44,570 --> 01:25:47,698
He held a child in his arms,
his daughter.
879
01:25:48,741 --> 01:25:52,370
Passers-by shouted, "Save the child!"
He threw the child...
880
01:25:52,411 --> 01:25:56,040
...out of his arms, and the child lived
and is alive today.
881
01:25:56,082 --> 01:26:00,169
His wife issued
a very moving statement:
882
01:26:00,211 --> 01:26:05,424
" Human beings must stop killing
other human beings. "
883
01:26:05,466 --> 01:26:07,510
And that's a belief that I shared.
884
01:26:08,553 --> 01:26:11,681
I shared it then and I believe it
even more strongly today.
885
01:26:12,723 --> 01:26:16,894
How much evil must we do
in order to do good?
886
01:26:17,937 --> 01:26:21,065
We have certain ideals,
certain responsibilities.
887
01:26:22,108 --> 01:26:28,364
Recognize that at times you will have
to engage in evil, but minimize it.
888
01:26:33,578 --> 01:26:37,748
I remember reading that
General Sherman, in the Civil War...
889
01:26:37,790 --> 01:26:41,919
...the mayor of Atlanta pleaded
with him to save the city.
890
01:26:41,961 --> 01:26:44,005
And Sherman essentially
said to the mayor...
891
01:26:45,047 --> 01:26:48,176
...just before he torched it
and burned it down:
892
01:26:48,217 --> 01:26:52,346
"War is cruel. War is cruelty. "
893
01:26:53,389 --> 01:26:55,433
That was the way LeMay felt.
894
01:26:55,475 --> 01:26:57,560
He was trying to save the country.
895
01:26:58,603 --> 01:27:01,689
He was trying to save our nation.
896
01:27:01,731 --> 01:27:07,945
And in the process, he was prepared
to do whatever killing was necessary.
897
01:27:11,073 --> 01:27:17,330
It's a very, very difficult position
for sensitive human beings to be in.
898
01:27:17,371 --> 01:27:20,458
Morrison was one of those.
I think I was.
899
01:27:27,757 --> 01:27:34,013
50,000 people came to Washington
to demonstrate against the war.
900
01:27:37,141 --> 01:27:40,269
About 20,000 of them marched
on the Pentagon.
901
01:27:45,483 --> 01:27:50,696
The Pentagon is a very, very difficult
building to defend.
902
01:27:50,738 --> 01:27:54,867
We placed troops carrying rifles
around it.
903
01:27:54,909 --> 01:27:57,995
U.S. Marshals in front of the soldiers.
904
01:28:00,081 --> 01:28:04,252
But I told the president,
not a rifle would be loaded...
905
01:28:04,293 --> 01:28:06,337
...without my personal permission.
906
01:28:06,379 --> 01:28:08,422
And I wasn't gonna grant it.
907
01:28:43,833 --> 01:28:49,046
What effect did all of this dissent
have on your thinking?
908
01:28:49,088 --> 01:28:52,175
I mean, Norman Morrison is '65.
This is '67.
909
01:28:52,216 --> 01:28:56,304
Well, it was a very tense period.
910
01:28:56,345 --> 01:29:00,516
Very tense period for my family,
which I don't want to discuss.
911
01:29:03,644 --> 01:29:07,815
How was your thinking changing
during this period?
912
01:29:08,858 --> 01:29:11,944
I don't think my thinking
was changing.
913
01:29:11,986 --> 01:29:17,200
We were in the Cold War.
And this was a Cold War...
914
01:29:18,242 --> 01:29:20,328
...activity.
915
01:30:09,293 --> 01:30:14,507
Some commentators have said the
war is turning into a kind of stalemate.
916
01:30:14,549 --> 01:30:17,593
No, no. I think on the contrary...
917
01:30:17,635 --> 01:30:19,720
...as General Westmoreland
has pointed out...
918
01:30:20,763 --> 01:30:23,891
...in recent weeks in Saigon,
the military operations...
919
01:30:24,934 --> 01:30:28,062
...the large-unit military operations
continue to...
920
01:30:28,104 --> 01:30:31,190
...show very substantial progress.
921
01:30:40,575 --> 01:30:44,745
One of the lessons I learned early on:
Never say never.
922
01:30:44,787 --> 01:30:46,831
Never, never, never.
923
01:30:47,874 --> 01:30:49,959
Never say never.
924
01:30:51,002 --> 01:30:53,045
And secondly...
925
01:30:53,087 --> 01:30:56,215
...never answer the question
that is asked of you.
926
01:30:57,258 --> 01:31:02,472
Answer the question that you wish
had been asked of you.
927
01:31:03,514 --> 01:31:06,642
And quite frankly, I follow that rule.
928
01:31:07,685 --> 01:31:09,771
It's a very good rule.
929
01:31:19,113 --> 01:31:25,369
When you talk about the responsibility
for something like the Vietnam War...
930
01:31:28,498 --> 01:31:29,540
...whose responsibility is it?
931
01:31:30,583 --> 01:31:31,626
It's the president's responsibility.
932
01:31:33,711 --> 01:31:35,755
I don't want to fail to recognize...
933
01:31:35,797 --> 01:31:39,926
...the tremendous contribution
I think Johnson made to the country.
934
01:31:39,967 --> 01:31:45,181
I don't want to put the responsibility
for Vietnam on his shoulders alone...
935
01:31:45,223 --> 01:31:48,267
...but I do... I am inclined to believe
that if Kennedy had lived...
936
01:31:48,309 --> 01:31:52,480
...he would've made a difference. We
wouldn't have had 500,000 men there.
937
01:31:57,693 --> 01:31:59,737
Two very telling photographs.
938
01:31:59,779 --> 01:32:02,907
One of them has Johnson like this:
939
01:32:03,950 --> 01:32:09,163
You can just see him thinking,
" My God, I'm in a hell of a mess.
940
01:32:09,205 --> 01:32:11,249
And this guy is trying to tell me
to do something...
941
01:32:12,291 --> 01:32:14,377
...that I know is wrong
and I'm not gonna do.
942
01:32:15,419 --> 01:32:17,505
But how the hell
am I gonna get out of this?"
943
01:32:18,548 --> 01:32:20,591
The other photograph,
you can see me saying:
944
01:32:20,633 --> 01:32:25,847
"Jesus Christ. I love this man,
I respect him, but he's totally wrong.
945
01:32:25,888 --> 01:32:27,932
What am I gonna do?"
946
01:32:28,975 --> 01:32:33,146
Johnson couldn't persuade me,
and I couldn't persuade him.
947
01:32:35,231 --> 01:32:38,359
I had this enormous respect
and affection, loyalty...
948
01:32:39,402 --> 01:32:41,446
...to both Kennedy and Johnson.
949
01:32:41,487 --> 01:32:46,617
But at the end, Johnson and I
found ourselves poles apart.
950
01:32:46,659 --> 01:32:49,787
And I said to a very close and dear
friend of mine, Kay Graham...
951
01:32:51,873 --> 01:32:57,086
" Even to this day, Kay, I don't know
whether I quit or was fired. "
952
01:32:57,128 --> 01:32:59,172
She said, "You're out of your mind.
You were fired. "
953
01:33:08,556 --> 01:33:12,727
November 1, 1967.
954
01:33:15,855 --> 01:33:18,441
I presented a memo to Johnson
that said:
955
01:33:18,483 --> 01:33:21,068
"The course we're on is totally wrong.
956
01:33:22,111 --> 01:33:24,197
We've gotta change it.
957
01:33:27,325 --> 01:33:30,453
Cut back at what we're doing
in Vietnam.
958
01:33:33,581 --> 01:33:36,709
We gotta reduce the casualties,"
and so on.
959
01:33:39,837 --> 01:33:42,965
It was an extraordinarily
controversial memo.
960
01:33:43,007 --> 01:33:46,093
And I took it to him.
I delivered it myself.
961
01:33:46,135 --> 01:33:48,137
" Mr. President, nobody has seen this.
962
01:33:48,179 --> 01:33:52,350
Not Dean Rusk, not the chairman
of the Joint Chiefs. Nobody. "
963
01:33:53,392 --> 01:33:57,563
" I know that it may contain
recommendations and statements...
964
01:33:57,605 --> 01:33:59,649
...that you do not agree with
or support. "
965
01:34:04,862 --> 01:34:06,948
I never heard from him.
966
01:34:13,162 --> 01:34:15,248
Something had to give.
967
01:34:21,504 --> 01:34:23,589
There was a rumor I was facing
a mental breakdown...
968
01:34:23,631 --> 01:34:26,717
...I was under such pressure
and stress.
969
01:34:29,846 --> 01:34:32,974
I don't think that was the case at all.
970
01:34:37,145 --> 01:34:40,273
But it was a really traumatic departure.
971
01:34:45,486 --> 01:34:47,572
That's the way it ended.
972
01:34:52,785 --> 01:34:54,871
Except for one thing.
973
01:34:56,956 --> 01:35:00,084
He awarded me
the Medal of Freedom...
974
01:35:01,127 --> 01:35:04,255
...in a very beautiful ceremony
at the White House.
975
01:35:04,297 --> 01:35:08,426
And he was very, very
warm in his comments.
976
01:35:08,468 --> 01:35:12,597
And I became so emotional,
I could not...
977
01:35:12,638 --> 01:35:14,682
...respond.
978
01:35:26,152 --> 01:35:28,237
Mr. President...
979
01:35:29,280 --> 01:35:32,366
...I cannot find words...
980
01:35:33,409 --> 01:35:36,537
...to express what lies
in my heart today.
981
01:35:39,665 --> 01:35:42,794
And I think I'd better respond
on another occasion.
982
01:35:54,263 --> 01:35:56,349
And had I responded,
I would have said:
983
01:35:57,391 --> 01:35:59,977
" I know what many of you
are thinking.
984
01:36:00,019 --> 01:36:02,563
You're thinking this man
is duplicitous.
985
01:36:02,605 --> 01:36:06,776
You're thinking that he has
held things close to his chest.
986
01:36:07,819 --> 01:36:09,862
You're thinking that...
987
01:36:09,904 --> 01:36:14,033
...he did not respond fully...
988
01:36:14,075 --> 01:36:17,203
...to the desires and wishes
of the American people.
989
01:36:17,245 --> 01:36:18,246
I wanna tell you you're wrong. "
990
01:36:19,288 --> 01:36:23,459
Of course he had
personal idiosyncrasies.
991
01:36:23,501 --> 01:36:25,503
No question about that.
992
01:36:25,545 --> 01:36:29,715
He didn't accept all the advice
he was given.
993
01:36:30,758 --> 01:36:37,014
On several occasions, his associates
advised him to be more forthcoming.
994
01:36:37,056 --> 01:36:39,100
He wasn't.
995
01:36:41,185 --> 01:36:44,814
People did not understand there were
recommendations and pressures...
996
01:36:44,856 --> 01:36:48,484
...that would carry the risk of war
with China and of nuclear war.
997
01:36:48,526 --> 01:36:51,612
And he was determined to prevent it.
998
01:36:55,741 --> 01:37:01,998
I'm arguing that he had a reason
in his mind for doing what he did.
999
01:37:05,126 --> 01:37:08,254
And, of course,
shortly after I left...
1000
01:37:09,297 --> 01:37:13,468
...Johnson concluded
that he couldn't continue.
1001
01:37:21,809 --> 01:37:25,980
At this point, how many Americans
had been killed in Vietnam?
1002
01:37:27,023 --> 01:37:31,194
About 25,000. Less than half...
1003
01:37:32,236 --> 01:37:35,364
...of the number
ultimately killed, 58,000.
1004
01:38:37,885 --> 01:38:43,099
Historians don't really like
to deal with counterfactuals...
1005
01:38:43,141 --> 01:38:45,184
...with what might have been.
1006
01:38:51,441 --> 01:38:53,526
They want to talk about history.
1007
01:38:54,569 --> 01:38:57,697
" How the hell do you know,
McNamara, what might have been?
1008
01:38:58,739 --> 01:38:59,782
Who knows?"
1009
01:39:01,868 --> 01:39:03,953
Well, I know certain things.
1010
01:39:13,337 --> 01:39:15,423
What I'm doing is thinking it through
with hindsight.
1011
01:39:16,466 --> 01:39:18,551
But you don't have hindsight
available at the time.
1012
01:39:19,594 --> 01:39:22,680
I'm very proud
of my accomplishments.
1013
01:39:22,722 --> 01:39:27,935
And I'm very sorry that in the process
of accomplishment, I've made errors.
1014
01:39:55,004 --> 01:39:58,132
We all make mistakes.
1015
01:39:59,175 --> 01:40:01,260
We know we make mistakes.
1016
01:40:04,388 --> 01:40:07,517
I don't know any military commander
who is honest...
1017
01:40:07,558 --> 01:40:10,645
...who would say he has not
made a mistake.
1018
01:40:14,816 --> 01:40:17,944
There's a wonderful phrase:
1019
01:40:17,985 --> 01:40:20,029
"The fog of war. "
1020
01:40:22,115 --> 01:40:24,158
What "the fog of war" means is:
1021
01:40:24,200 --> 01:40:28,371
War is so complex it's beyond
the ability of the human mind...
1022
01:40:28,412 --> 01:40:31,499
...to comprehend
all the variables.
1023
01:40:32,542 --> 01:40:37,755
Our judgment, our understanding,
are not adequate.
1024
01:40:39,841 --> 01:40:42,969
And we kill people unnecessarily.
1025
01:40:47,140 --> 01:40:52,353
Wilson said,
"We won the war to end all wars. "
1026
01:41:01,737 --> 01:41:07,952
I'm not so naive or simplistic
to believe we can eliminate war.
1027
01:41:10,037 --> 01:41:13,166
We're not gonna change
human nature any time soon.
1028
01:41:23,593 --> 01:41:26,721
It isn't that we aren't rational.
We are rational.
1029
01:41:27,764 --> 01:41:29,849
But reason has limits.
1030
01:41:47,575 --> 01:41:52,789
There's a quote from T.S. Eliot
that I just love:
1031
01:41:53,831 --> 01:41:56,959
"We shall not cease from exploring...
1032
01:41:58,002 --> 01:42:03,216
...and at the end of our exploration,
we will return to where we started...
1033
01:42:04,258 --> 01:42:07,345
...and know the place
for the first time. "
1034
01:42:07,386 --> 01:42:10,515
Now that's, in a sense,
where I'm beginning to be.
1035
01:42:28,241 --> 01:42:31,285
After you left
the Johnson administration...
1036
01:42:31,327 --> 01:42:35,498
...why didn't you speak out
against the Vietnam War?
1037
01:42:38,626 --> 01:42:42,755
I'm not going to say any more
than I have.
1038
01:42:42,797 --> 01:42:45,925
These are the kinds of questions
that get me in trouble.
1039
01:42:46,968 --> 01:42:53,224
You don't know what I know about how
inflammatory my words can appear.
1040
01:42:57,395 --> 01:43:01,566
A lot of people
misunderstand the war...
1041
01:43:01,607 --> 01:43:03,651
...misunderstand me.
1042
01:43:05,736 --> 01:43:08,865
A lot of people think
I'm a son of a bitch.
1043
01:43:09,907 --> 01:43:13,035
Do you feel in any way
responsible for the war?
1044
01:43:13,077 --> 01:43:15,121
Do you feel guilty?
1045
01:43:16,164 --> 01:43:18,249
I don't want to go into
further discussion.
1046
01:43:18,291 --> 01:43:21,377
It just opens up more controversy.
1047
01:43:22,420 --> 01:43:24,505
I don't wanna add anything
to Vietnam.
1048
01:43:24,547 --> 01:43:26,549
It is so complex that anything I say...
1049
01:43:26,591 --> 01:43:30,762
...will require additions
and qualifications.
1050
01:43:34,932 --> 01:43:38,060
Is it the feeling that you're
damned if you do...
1051
01:43:38,102 --> 01:43:40,146
...and if you don't,
no matter what...?
1052
01:43:40,188 --> 01:43:42,231
Yeah, that's right.
1053
01:43:44,317 --> 01:43:48,488
And I would rather be
damned if I don't.
1054
01:43:48,905 --> 01:43:53,075
Subtitles by SDI Media Group
1055
01:43:53,409 --> 01:43:57,580
Synchro by Laukas
1056
01:43:57,622 --> 01:44:01,793
>> Napisy pobrane z http://napisy. org <<
>>>>>>>> nowa wizja napis�w <<<<<<<<
1057
01:44:02,793 --> 01:44:12,793
Downloaded From www.AllSubs.org
91820
Can't find what you're looking for?
Get subtitles in any language from opensubtitles.com, and translate them here.