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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:48,214 --> 00:00:50,625 Let me put up this next memo. 2 00:00:52,102 --> 00:00:53,579 You want me to read this? 3 00:00:55,336 --> 00:00:56,614 Yes, please. 4 00:00:57,909 --> 00:01:01,187 "February 4, 2004. 5 00:01:01,854 --> 00:01:04,930 Subject: What you know. 6 00:01:06,614 --> 00:01:08,653 There are known knowns. 7 00:01:09,806 --> 00:01:11,890 There are known unknowns. 8 00:01:13,550 --> 00:01:16,180 There are unknown unknowns. 9 00:01:17,273 --> 00:01:21,198 But there are also unknown knowns. 10 00:01:24,112 --> 00:01:28,570 That is to say, things that you think you know 11 00:01:28,806 --> 00:01:31,561 that it turns out you did not." 12 00:03:06,551 --> 00:03:08,903 I wonder if in the future 13 00:03:09,300 --> 00:03:13,693 public figures will write as many memos as I did. 14 00:03:15,693 --> 00:03:17,980 I doubt it. 15 00:03:19,203 --> 00:03:21,917 I must have gotten in the habit of dictating 16 00:03:22,170 --> 00:03:24,139 things that were important. 17 00:03:24,652 --> 00:03:25,886 Not a diary. 18 00:03:25,986 --> 00:03:27,660 Not a journal. 19 00:03:28,556 --> 00:03:30,457 They're almost all working documents. 20 00:03:30,557 --> 00:03:33,761 Now, they've become historical documents in retrospect, 21 00:03:33,861 --> 00:03:37,109 but at the time, they all had a purpose. 22 00:03:37,331 --> 00:03:40,902 In the later years of my using the dictaphone, 23 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:42,795 why, they were called snowflakes, 24 00:03:42,977 --> 00:03:44,656 because they were on white paper. 25 00:03:45,708 --> 00:03:48,343 What would you say the total number of memos 26 00:03:48,443 --> 00:03:49,573 might be? 27 00:03:50,241 --> 00:03:52,480 They said I dictated 20,000 28 00:03:52,580 --> 00:03:54,982 just in the last six years at the Pentagon. 29 00:03:55,340 --> 00:03:56,741 There have to be millions. 30 00:04:02,741 --> 00:04:05,892 "July 27, 2001." 31 00:04:05,992 --> 00:04:10,865 A memo to Condoleezza Rice concerning Iraq. 32 00:04:10,965 --> 00:04:15,300 "We have discussed Iraq on a number of occasions. 33 00:04:15,103 --> 00:04:18,506 The discussions have been inconclusive. 34 00:04:18,606 --> 00:04:20,441 Sanctions are being limited 35 00:04:20,541 --> 00:04:25,379 in a way that cannot weaken Saddam Hussein. 36 00:04:25,479 --> 00:04:28,160 We can publicly acknowledge that the sanctions don't work 37 00:04:28,116 --> 00:04:31,419 over extended periods and stop the pretense 38 00:04:31,519 --> 00:04:33,600 of having a policy that is keeping Saddam 39 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:37,458 'in the box' when we know he has crawled 40 00:04:37,558 --> 00:04:40,895 a good distance out of the box. 41 00:04:40,995 --> 00:04:42,497 Within a few years, 42 00:04:42,597 --> 00:04:44,178 the U.S. will undoubtedly have to confront 43 00:04:44,278 --> 00:04:48,959 a Saddam armed with nuclear weapons. 44 00:04:54,959 --> 00:04:57,412 If Saddam's regime were oustered, 45 00:04:57,512 --> 00:04:59,547 we would have a much-improved position 46 00:04:59,647 --> 00:05:01,398 in the region and elsewhere." 47 00:05:11,377 --> 00:05:17,331 Why the obsession with Iraq and Saddam? 48 00:05:17,431 --> 00:05:19,667 Well, you love that word, "obsession." 49 00:05:19,767 --> 00:05:22,603 I can see the glow in your face when you say it. 50 00:05:22,703 --> 00:05:23,905 Well, I'm an obsessive person. 51 00:05:24,500 --> 00:05:25,439 Are you? I'm not. 52 00:05:25,539 --> 00:05:26,908 I'm... I'm cool. 53 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:28,809 I'm measured. 54 00:05:28,909 --> 00:05:31,746 If you look at the range of my memos, 55 00:05:31,846 --> 00:05:35,615 there might be 1/10 of 1% about Iraq. 56 00:05:35,715 --> 00:05:37,417 The reason I was concerned about Iraq 57 00:05:37,517 --> 00:05:40,754 is 'cause four-star generals would come to me and say, 58 00:05:40,854 --> 00:05:44,359 "Mr. secretary, we have a problem. 59 00:05:44,459 --> 00:05:47,427 Our orders are to fly over the northern part of Iraq 60 00:05:47,527 --> 00:05:49,997 and the Southern part of Iraq on a daily basis, 61 00:05:50,970 --> 00:05:53,568 with the Brits, and we are getting shot at. 62 00:05:53,668 --> 00:05:55,903 At some moment... could be tomorrow, 63 00:05:56,300 --> 00:05:58,400 could be next month, could be next year... 64 00:05:58,104 --> 00:06:00,740 one of our planes is gonna be shot down 65 00:06:00,174 --> 00:06:03,778 and our pilots and crews are gonna be killed 66 00:06:03,878 --> 00:06:05,780 or they're gonna be captured." 67 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:07,448 The question will be, 68 00:06:07,548 --> 00:06:10,651 "what in the world were we flying those flights for? 69 00:06:10,751 --> 00:06:12,787 What was the cost-benefit ratio? 70 00:06:12,887 --> 00:06:14,821 What was our country gaining?" 71 00:06:14,921 --> 00:06:16,157 So you sit down and you say, 72 00:06:16,257 --> 00:06:17,759 "I think I'm gonna see 73 00:06:17,859 --> 00:06:19,559 if I can get the president's attention. 74 00:06:19,659 --> 00:06:21,862 Remind him that our planes are being shot at, 75 00:06:21,962 --> 00:06:25,980 remind him that we don't have a fresh policy for Iraq, 76 00:06:25,198 --> 00:06:30,400 and remind him that we've got a whole range of options." 77 00:06:30,104 --> 00:06:31,405 Not an obsession. 78 00:06:31,505 --> 00:06:36,477 A very measured, nuanced approach, 79 00:06:36,577 --> 00:06:38,177 I think. 80 00:06:42,867 --> 00:06:45,819 In my confirmation hearing 81 00:06:45,919 --> 00:06:50,570 when I was nominated to be secretary of defense, 82 00:06:50,157 --> 00:06:52,110 the best question I was asked was, 83 00:06:53,110 --> 00:06:56,831 "what do you worry about when you go to bed at night?" 84 00:06:56,931 --> 00:06:59,466 And my answer was, in effect, 85 00:06:59,566 --> 00:07:00,701 "intelligence. 86 00:07:00,801 --> 00:07:02,670 The danger that we can be surprised 87 00:07:02,770 --> 00:07:04,872 because of a failure of imagining 88 00:07:04,972 --> 00:07:06,862 what might happen in the world." 89 00:07:09,862 --> 00:07:14,848 There are known knowns, the things we know we know. 90 00:07:14,948 --> 00:07:16,184 There are known unknowns, 91 00:07:16,284 --> 00:07:20,210 the things we know we don't know. 92 00:07:20,121 --> 00:07:21,472 There are also that third category 93 00:07:22,700 --> 00:07:23,557 of unknown unknowns, 94 00:07:23,657 --> 00:07:25,860 the things we don't know we don't know. 95 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,163 And you can only know more about those things 96 00:07:29,263 --> 00:07:32,987 by imagining what they might be. 97 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,943 Pearl harbor was a failure of imagination. 98 00:07:42,430 --> 00:07:44,110 We didn't know we didn't know 99 00:07:44,210 --> 00:07:47,803 that they could do what they did the way they did it. 100 00:07:51,803 --> 00:07:55,122 We had people working on breaking codes. 101 00:07:55,222 --> 00:07:57,230 We had people thinking through, 102 00:07:57,123 --> 00:07:59,980 "what are the kinds of things they might do?" 103 00:08:01,980 --> 00:08:04,160 And lo and behold, the carriers were able to, 104 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,903 on a Sunday morning, get very close to Hawaii, 105 00:08:09,300 --> 00:08:13,994 launch their planes, and impose enormous destruction. 106 00:08:28,973 --> 00:08:31,225 Was it failure of imagination 107 00:08:31,325 --> 00:08:35,290 or failure to look at the intelligence 108 00:08:35,129 --> 00:08:38,165 that was available? 109 00:08:38,265 --> 00:08:39,599 They had thought through 110 00:08:39,699 --> 00:08:43,603 a great many more obvious possibilities. 111 00:08:43,703 --> 00:08:47,942 People were chasing the wrong rabbit. 112 00:08:48,420 --> 00:08:51,312 That one possibility was not something 113 00:08:51,412 --> 00:08:55,270 that they had imagined was likely. 114 00:08:59,270 --> 00:09:03,550 "July 23, 2001. 115 00:09:03,650 --> 00:09:08,728 Subject: 'Pearl harbor post-mortem.' 116 00:09:08,828 --> 00:09:11,640 in some future hearing, 117 00:09:11,164 --> 00:09:13,733 I am going to say that I do not want 118 00:09:13,833 --> 00:09:17,737 to be sitting before this panel 119 00:09:17,837 --> 00:09:22,676 in a modern-day version of a pearl harbor post-mortem: 120 00:09:22,776 --> 00:09:27,915 Who didn't do what, when, where, and why. 121 00:09:28,150 --> 00:09:31,819 None of us would want to have to be back here 122 00:09:31,919 --> 00:09:35,222 going through that agony." 123 00:09:35,322 --> 00:09:39,894 A month or so before September 11, 2001, 124 00:09:39,994 --> 00:09:44,131 it would be wrong to think that someone who wrote it... 125 00:09:44,231 --> 00:09:46,232 namely me, was prescient. 126 00:09:46,332 --> 00:09:47,334 I wasn't. 127 00:09:47,434 --> 00:09:49,904 I simply had read enough history 128 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:51,792 that I worried. 129 00:09:53,792 --> 00:09:55,175 American 11, climb, 130 00:09:55,275 --> 00:09:58,945 maintain flight level 350. 131 00:09:59,450 --> 00:10:01,436 American 11, climb, maintain flight level 350. 132 00:10:04,436 --> 00:10:06,341 American 11, Boston. 133 00:10:09,341 --> 00:10:11,679 The American on the frequency, how do you hear me? 134 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:16,229 American 11, if you hear Boston center 135 00:10:16,329 --> 00:10:19,400 re-contact Boston center on 127.82. 136 00:10:19,500 --> 00:10:22,291 That's American 11, 127.82. 137 00:10:26,291 --> 00:10:27,742 My military assistant, 138 00:10:27,842 --> 00:10:30,377 admiral Ed Giambastiani, came in and said, 139 00:10:30,477 --> 00:10:33,381 "a plane has hit the world trade center." 140 00:10:33,481 --> 00:10:36,250 It was assumed to be an accident. 141 00:10:36,350 --> 00:10:39,319 And I went into my office from the conference room, 142 00:10:39,419 --> 00:10:41,440 and admiral Giambastiani said, "another plane has hit 143 00:10:41,540 --> 00:10:43,240 the other world trade center tower." 144 00:10:43,124 --> 00:10:44,391 And of course, at that point, 145 00:10:44,491 --> 00:10:46,260 it wasn't an accident; It was an attack. 146 00:10:46,126 --> 00:10:50,751 Within minutes, I felt the Pentagon shake. 147 00:10:53,751 --> 00:10:57,388 That's how our day began on September 11th. 148 00:11:05,130 --> 00:11:08,716 They had hit the center of economic power in New York, 149 00:11:08,816 --> 00:11:12,850 and they then had hit the center of military power 150 00:11:12,185 --> 00:11:13,286 at the Pentagon. 151 00:11:13,386 --> 00:11:15,189 You need to find out what had happened. 152 00:11:15,289 --> 00:11:16,824 What was it? 153 00:11:16,924 --> 00:11:19,392 I got up and went down the hall, and... 154 00:11:19,492 --> 00:11:21,695 on my floor, until the smoke was so bad 155 00:11:21,795 --> 00:11:23,229 I had to get outside. 156 00:11:23,329 --> 00:11:26,000 Then I went downstairs and outside and around the corner, 157 00:11:26,100 --> 00:11:29,690 and here were pieces of that American airlines airplane 158 00:11:29,169 --> 00:11:32,493 just spread all over the apron, all over the grass. 159 00:11:34,493 --> 00:11:36,776 Flames and smoke, 160 00:11:36,876 --> 00:11:38,846 people being brought out of the building 161 00:11:38,946 --> 00:11:42,680 who were injured and burned and wounded. 162 00:11:44,680 --> 00:11:46,319 The first responders really hadn't arrived yet. 163 00:11:46,419 --> 00:11:48,147 There were very few people there. 164 00:11:55,147 --> 00:11:58,165 How do you think that they got away with 9/11? 165 00:11:58,265 --> 00:12:01,121 It seems amazing in retrospect. 166 00:12:04,121 --> 00:12:07,440 Everything seems amazing in retrospect. 167 00:12:07,540 --> 00:12:10,465 Pearl harbor seems amazing in retrospect. 168 00:12:13,465 --> 00:12:16,139 It's a failure of imagination. 169 00:12:22,139 --> 00:12:28,940 It's not as though you aren't aware of possibilities, 170 00:12:28,194 --> 00:12:31,531 but you tend to favor some possibilities 171 00:12:31,631 --> 00:12:33,321 more than others. 172 00:12:36,321 --> 00:12:39,272 And it's enormously important to have priorities. 173 00:12:39,372 --> 00:12:40,540 What are you gonna worry about? 174 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,800 What is it you want to do? 175 00:12:42,108 --> 00:12:43,409 What are you gonna be prepared for? 176 00:12:43,509 --> 00:12:44,944 And you have to pick and choose. 177 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:46,546 Well, to the extent you pick and choose 178 00:12:46,646 --> 00:12:48,231 and you're wrong... 179 00:12:51,100 --> 00:12:53,275 ...the penalty can be enormous. 180 00:12:58,275 --> 00:13:03,672 "September 30, 2001." 181 00:13:03,772 --> 00:13:07,321 Memorandum. Title: "Strategic thoughts." 182 00:13:09,321 --> 00:13:13,600 "The U.S. strategic theme should be aiding local peoples 183 00:13:13,106 --> 00:13:15,141 to rid themselves of terrorists 184 00:13:15,241 --> 00:13:17,277 and to free themselves of regimes 185 00:13:17,377 --> 00:13:21,448 that support terrorism. 186 00:13:21,548 --> 00:13:25,819 The regimes of such states should see that it will be fatal 187 00:13:25,919 --> 00:13:29,410 to host terrorists who attack the United States. 188 00:13:33,410 --> 00:13:36,300 The United States government should envision 189 00:13:36,130 --> 00:13:38,299 a goal along these lines. 190 00:13:38,399 --> 00:13:43,270 New regimes in Afghanistan and another key state or two 191 00:13:43,370 --> 00:13:46,240 that supports terrorism. 192 00:13:46,340 --> 00:13:48,442 Syria out of Lebanon. 193 00:13:48,542 --> 00:13:50,310 Dismantlement or destruction 194 00:13:50,410 --> 00:13:53,902 of weapons of mass destruction capabilities. 195 00:13:56,902 --> 00:13:59,219 If the war does not significantly change 196 00:13:59,319 --> 00:14:01,121 the world's political map, 197 00:14:01,221 --> 00:14:04,511 the U.S. will not achieve its aim." 198 00:14:15,654 --> 00:14:18,405 On my orders, the United States military 199 00:14:18,505 --> 00:14:19,505 has begun strikes 200 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,642 against Al-Qaeda terrorist training camps 201 00:14:22,742 --> 00:14:24,210 and military installations 202 00:14:24,310 --> 00:14:26,566 of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. 203 00:14:43,414 --> 00:14:46,266 In relatively short order, a matter of weeks, 204 00:14:46,366 --> 00:14:47,534 Kabul was occupied, 205 00:14:47,634 --> 00:14:49,136 the Taliban was defeated 206 00:14:49,236 --> 00:14:52,171 and run out of the country in large measure, 207 00:14:52,271 --> 00:14:54,659 and a lot of Al-Qaeda were killed. 208 00:14:55,659 --> 00:15:00,347 Osama Bin Laden escaped into Pakistan eventually. 209 00:15:00,447 --> 00:15:03,416 The target of the largest manhunt in history 210 00:15:03,516 --> 00:15:04,984 still eludes capture. 211 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:06,587 Cave by cave, for any sign 212 00:15:06,687 --> 00:15:08,380 of Osama Bin Laden, dead or alive. 213 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:11,992 The high probability that Osama Bin Laden is still alive. 214 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:14,270 With Afghanistan's porous borders, 215 00:15:14,127 --> 00:15:16,362 it's possible Bin Laden has already slipped 216 00:15:16,462 --> 00:15:17,462 out of the country. 217 00:15:23,388 --> 00:15:29,108 Osama gets away, and a confusion sets in. 218 00:15:29,208 --> 00:15:34,515 People began to think that Saddam was connected 219 00:15:34,615 --> 00:15:39,218 with Al-Qaeda and with 9/11. 220 00:15:39,318 --> 00:15:40,318 Oh, I don't think so. 221 00:15:41,500 --> 00:15:44,992 It was very clear that the direct planning for 9/11 222 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:47,660 was done by Osama Bin Laden's people, 223 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,497 Al-Qaeda, and in Afghanistan. 224 00:15:51,597 --> 00:15:53,320 I don't think the American people 225 00:15:53,132 --> 00:15:55,202 were confused about that. 226 00:15:55,302 --> 00:15:59,673 In 2003, in a Washington Post poll, 227 00:15:59,773 --> 00:16:02,108 69% said they believe it is likely 228 00:16:02,208 --> 00:16:04,511 the Iraqi leader was personally involved 229 00:16:04,611 --> 00:16:07,714 in the attacks carried out by Al-Qaeda. 230 00:16:07,814 --> 00:16:11,385 I don't remember anyone in the bush administration 231 00:16:11,485 --> 00:16:13,353 saying anything like that, 232 00:16:13,453 --> 00:16:16,689 nor do I recall anyone believing that. 233 00:16:16,789 --> 00:16:19,930 Mr. secretary, today in a broadcast interview was... 234 00:16:19,193 --> 00:16:22,596 Saddam Hussein said, "there is only one truth. 235 00:16:22,696 --> 00:16:26,232 Iraq has no weapons of mass destruction whatsoever." 236 00:16:26,332 --> 00:16:27,401 And he went on to say, 237 00:16:27,501 --> 00:16:29,200 "I would like to tell you directly 238 00:16:29,102 --> 00:16:31,704 we have no relationship with Al-Qaeda." 239 00:16:31,804 --> 00:16:34,624 And Abraham Lincoln was short. 240 00:16:36,693 --> 00:16:38,245 Would you care to respond directly 241 00:16:38,345 --> 00:16:41,403 to what Saddam Hussein has said today? 242 00:16:45,403 --> 00:16:46,403 I... 243 00:16:47,554 --> 00:16:50,223 how does one respond to that? 244 00:16:50,323 --> 00:16:53,227 It's just a continuous pattern. 245 00:16:53,327 --> 00:16:57,970 This is a case of the local liar coming up again 246 00:16:57,197 --> 00:16:58,431 and people repeating what he said 247 00:16:58,531 --> 00:17:00,767 and forgetting to say that he never... 248 00:17:00,867 --> 00:17:05,154 almost never... rarely tells the truth. 249 00:17:14,598 --> 00:17:16,749 There are two sides to the coin. 250 00:17:16,849 --> 00:17:19,592 One is, 251 00:17:19,692 --> 00:17:22,555 "belief in the inevitability of conflict 252 00:17:22,655 --> 00:17:27,326 can become one of its main causes." 253 00:17:27,426 --> 00:17:31,794 That is a truth. 254 00:17:31,894 --> 00:17:34,735 The other side of the coin, which is also true, is, 255 00:17:34,835 --> 00:17:38,125 "if you wish for peace, prepare for war." 256 00:17:41,125 --> 00:17:42,476 But if both were true, 257 00:17:42,576 --> 00:17:46,647 well, you can use that to justify anything. 258 00:17:46,747 --> 00:17:49,749 There's a similar thing in Rumsfeld’s rules 259 00:17:49,849 --> 00:17:52,119 where I say, 260 00:17:52,219 --> 00:17:56,390 "all generalizations are false, 261 00:17:56,490 --> 00:18:00,360 including this one." 262 00:18:00,460 --> 00:18:02,860 There it is. 263 00:18:05,650 --> 00:18:07,868 The president did harden his stand towards... 264 00:18:07,968 --> 00:18:10,603 the United States is on the road to war. 265 00:18:10,703 --> 00:18:12,538 Administration officials say the effort 266 00:18:12,638 --> 00:18:14,708 to pressure Iraq has moved into a final phase. 267 00:18:14,808 --> 00:18:16,877 All the military pieces should be in place 268 00:18:16,977 --> 00:18:18,170 to go to war with Iraq. 269 00:18:25,170 --> 00:18:27,787 On January 11, 2003, 270 00:18:27,887 --> 00:18:30,390 the vice president's office called 271 00:18:30,490 --> 00:18:32,758 and requested that I come over to meet with him 272 00:18:32,858 --> 00:18:37,797 and the Saudi ambassador, prince Bandar. 273 00:18:37,897 --> 00:18:39,499 It was unusual. I mean, I... 274 00:18:39,599 --> 00:18:42,436 I wasn't often in the vice president's office. 275 00:18:42,536 --> 00:18:43,570 We sat down. 276 00:18:43,670 --> 00:18:47,673 Dick proceeded to tell Bandar 277 00:18:47,773 --> 00:18:51,879 that the president was going to invade Iraq 278 00:18:51,979 --> 00:18:54,381 and change the regime in Iraq. 279 00:18:54,481 --> 00:18:57,784 That was the first time that I'd heard anything 280 00:18:57,884 --> 00:19:00,219 that sounded truly definitive. 281 00:19:00,319 --> 00:19:03,689 What was the Saudi ambassador's reaction to this? 282 00:19:03,789 --> 00:19:06,927 He wanted reassurance that when it was all over, 283 00:19:07,270 --> 00:19:09,162 Saddam Hussein would be gone. 284 00:19:09,262 --> 00:19:11,797 They needed to know that the president was serious. 285 00:19:11,897 --> 00:19:13,432 That is why, I'm sure, 286 00:19:13,532 --> 00:19:16,737 the vice president said it the way he said it. 287 00:19:16,837 --> 00:19:19,172 Is it at all strange that you would hear about it 288 00:19:19,272 --> 00:19:20,774 in this way? 289 00:19:20,874 --> 00:19:21,874 No. 290 00:19:23,994 --> 00:19:26,266 No, I don't think so. 291 00:19:28,266 --> 00:19:32,718 If the purpose of the war is to get rid of Saddam Hussein, 292 00:19:32,818 --> 00:19:34,249 why can't they just assassinate him? 293 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,292 Why do you have to invade his country? 294 00:19:38,392 --> 00:19:39,493 Who's "they?" 295 00:19:39,593 --> 00:19:40,593 Us. 296 00:19:41,110 --> 00:19:42,329 You said, "they." 297 00:19:42,429 --> 00:19:43,529 You didn't say, "we." 298 00:19:43,629 --> 00:19:44,730 Well, "we." 299 00:19:44,830 --> 00:19:45,830 I will rephrase it. 300 00:19:46,170 --> 00:19:47,570 Why do we have to do that? 301 00:19:48,190 --> 00:19:52,992 We don't assassinate leaders of other countries. 302 00:19:54,992 --> 00:19:58,277 Well, Dora Farms, we were doing our best. 303 00:19:58,377 --> 00:20:01,370 That was an act of war. 304 00:20:06,370 --> 00:20:07,387 The beginning of the war, 305 00:20:07,487 --> 00:20:10,457 even before it started, 306 00:20:10,557 --> 00:20:13,427 George Tenet came to see me in my office at the Pentagon. 307 00:20:13,527 --> 00:20:16,596 He said, "we think we know where Saddam Hussein is." 308 00:20:16,696 --> 00:20:18,599 I said, "terrific," and I called the White House 309 00:20:18,699 --> 00:20:20,667 and said to the president, "we're coming over." 310 00:20:20,767 --> 00:20:22,958 We met in his office. 311 00:20:26,958 --> 00:20:28,641 George Tenet would go from the oval office 312 00:20:28,741 --> 00:20:31,711 in to a side office and talk to the people 313 00:20:31,811 --> 00:20:33,814 in the central intelligence agency 314 00:20:33,914 --> 00:20:38,884 who were talking to the agents on the ground in Iraq. 315 00:20:38,984 --> 00:20:40,387 The word came back 316 00:20:40,487 --> 00:20:43,323 that somebody had identified Saddam Hussein 317 00:20:43,423 --> 00:20:45,877 as being at Dora Farms. 318 00:20:46,877 --> 00:20:51,597 George Tenet was convinced that his people on the ground 319 00:20:51,697 --> 00:20:53,366 were giving him the straight dope. 320 00:20:53,466 --> 00:20:55,850 They were certain he was there. 321 00:21:00,391 --> 00:21:02,270 We'd put on alert aircraft. 322 00:21:03,270 --> 00:21:08,569 The aircraft took off and went to that location. 323 00:21:12,569 --> 00:21:15,354 The president went around the room asking, 324 00:21:15,454 --> 00:21:17,524 "should we do this or not?" 325 00:21:17,624 --> 00:21:18,922 Everyone in the room, as I recall, 326 00:21:19,220 --> 00:21:21,928 agreed it was sufficiently solid intelligence, 327 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:23,397 sufficient to do it. 328 00:21:23,497 --> 00:21:24,797 We just were so hopeful 329 00:21:24,897 --> 00:21:26,733 that by killing Saddam Hussein, 330 00:21:26,833 --> 00:21:30,937 we could end the need for a war, 331 00:21:31,370 --> 00:21:34,130 that in fact, by that act, you would change the regime. 332 00:21:39,130 --> 00:21:42,865 The planes went in, and they struck the farm... 333 00:21:46,104 --> 00:21:48,400 ...killed some people. 334 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,459 They came out with a stretcher with a body. 335 00:21:53,559 --> 00:21:56,429 People there on the ground asserted 336 00:21:56,529 --> 00:21:58,332 that it was Saddam Hussein. 337 00:21:58,432 --> 00:22:01,468 They think they killed him. 338 00:22:01,568 --> 00:22:05,122 And it turned out, it was not. 339 00:22:09,626 --> 00:22:11,644 What a wonderful thing it would have been 340 00:22:11,744 --> 00:22:14,680 if he could have been killed. 341 00:22:14,780 --> 00:22:18,384 The war would have been avoided. 342 00:22:18,484 --> 00:22:19,619 It's possible. 343 00:22:19,719 --> 00:22:21,870 May not have been, 344 00:22:21,187 --> 00:22:22,775 but it's possible. 345 00:22:34,652 --> 00:22:37,704 You wonder why they didn't respond 346 00:22:37,804 --> 00:22:39,639 to all the efforts that were made 347 00:22:39,739 --> 00:22:44,515 to avoid that war. 348 00:22:44,615 --> 00:22:45,946 How could they be that mixed up 349 00:22:46,460 --> 00:22:49,969 in what the inevitable next steps would be? 350 00:22:51,969 --> 00:22:53,786 Why they wouldn't sit down 351 00:22:53,886 --> 00:22:57,556 and have an agonizing reappraisal, 352 00:22:57,656 --> 00:23:01,444 and it come to some logical conclusion? 353 00:23:27,238 --> 00:23:29,189 I was elected to congress. 354 00:23:29,289 --> 00:23:31,240 I was 30 years old. 355 00:23:31,124 --> 00:23:35,629 It was during the Vietnam war and the civil rights era. 356 00:23:35,729 --> 00:23:39,466 There were big issues before us. 357 00:23:39,566 --> 00:23:41,500 I would come back sometimes 358 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,204 knowing I didn't know if I voted right, 359 00:23:44,304 --> 00:23:46,872 that there are arguments here and there were arguments there. 360 00:23:46,972 --> 00:23:49,442 "Ugh, I hope I voted the right way. 361 00:23:49,542 --> 00:23:50,542 Why did I do what I did?" 362 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,714 And I'd sit down and dictate that. 363 00:23:54,814 --> 00:23:56,850 After almost every vote, every amendment, 364 00:23:56,950 --> 00:24:01,153 I would go back with my little dictaphone. 365 00:24:01,253 --> 00:24:03,722 I would dictate a note and say, 366 00:24:03,822 --> 00:24:04,990 "here was the vote. 367 00:24:05,900 --> 00:24:06,826 The ayes were this. The nays were that. 368 00:24:06,926 --> 00:24:08,795 Here were the amendments, and here's what I did 369 00:24:08,895 --> 00:24:11,131 and why I did it." 370 00:24:11,231 --> 00:24:14,133 And then when I went in the executive branch, 371 00:24:14,233 --> 00:24:18,710 I would want to clarify my own thinking, 372 00:24:18,171 --> 00:24:20,162 so I would try to put it down on paper and edit it, 373 00:24:21,250 --> 00:24:23,209 and I'd go through three, four, five drafts, 374 00:24:23,309 --> 00:24:25,478 getting it the way I really wanted it. 375 00:24:25,578 --> 00:24:28,715 I would do it for communications to my staff. 376 00:24:28,815 --> 00:24:31,785 I wanted them to know what I was thinking. 377 00:24:31,885 --> 00:24:34,254 Did you imagine that they would produce 378 00:24:34,354 --> 00:24:35,822 this vast archive? 379 00:24:35,922 --> 00:24:37,189 Oh, it never crossed my mind. 380 00:24:37,289 --> 00:24:39,593 I never knew what I was gonna do next. 381 00:24:39,693 --> 00:24:41,764 The only thing I've ever volunteered for in my life... 382 00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:43,763 one was to go in the Navy, 383 00:24:43,863 --> 00:24:46,866 and the other was to run for congress. 384 00:24:46,966 --> 00:24:48,718 The other was to get married. 385 00:24:58,996 --> 00:25:01,281 You look at being married to the same woman 386 00:25:01,381 --> 00:25:03,917 all those decades... 387 00:25:04,170 --> 00:25:07,860 when you're 20, 21, 22, 388 00:25:07,186 --> 00:25:10,550 what did you know? 389 00:25:10,155 --> 00:25:13,226 Both of us were young and unformed. 390 00:25:13,326 --> 00:25:16,263 How in the world can you be that lucky? 391 00:25:16,363 --> 00:25:18,131 How did you propose? 392 00:25:18,231 --> 00:25:20,631 Imperfectly. 393 00:25:22,686 --> 00:25:27,673 I was getting ready to leave for Pensacola. 394 00:25:27,773 --> 00:25:29,676 About 10:00 in the morning, I said to my folks, 395 00:25:29,776 --> 00:25:30,910 "I'll be back. 396 00:25:31,100 --> 00:25:33,130 I'm gonna go down and see Joyce." 397 00:25:33,113 --> 00:25:34,314 I asked her to marry me. 398 00:25:34,414 --> 00:25:35,748 I didn't get down on my knees. 399 00:25:35,848 --> 00:25:37,883 I didn't do anything fancy. 400 00:25:37,983 --> 00:25:39,785 I didn't want to get married, 401 00:25:39,885 --> 00:25:41,621 but I sure as heck didn't want her 402 00:25:41,721 --> 00:25:43,722 to marry anyone else. 403 00:25:43,822 --> 00:25:46,580 And I was correct. 404 00:25:46,158 --> 00:25:47,158 It was a good decision. 405 00:25:48,110 --> 00:25:50,349 It just hadn't been part of my plan. 406 00:25:56,190 --> 00:25:58,138 Director of the office of economic opportunity 407 00:25:58,238 --> 00:26:01,760 was Rumsfeld’s first job for Richard Nixon. 408 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,313 Later, when O.E.O. Seemed headed for extinction, 409 00:26:06,413 --> 00:26:10,836 Mr. Nixon named him director of the cost of living council. 410 00:26:11,836 --> 00:26:13,530 After friction developed 411 00:26:13,153 --> 00:26:15,354 between Rumsfeld and H.R. Haldeman, 412 00:26:15,454 --> 00:26:18,658 Rumsfeld requested a change 413 00:26:18,758 --> 00:26:21,260 and was sent to Brussels as the U.S. ambassador 414 00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:24,363 to the north Atlantic treaty organization. 415 00:26:24,463 --> 00:26:26,320 He got out just in time 416 00:26:26,132 --> 00:26:28,221 and survived Watergate with reputation intact. 417 00:26:31,221 --> 00:26:34,740 A person who works that hard to become president 418 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,911 had to believe that everything he did or thought 419 00:26:39,110 --> 00:26:43,783 would be useful to preserve. 420 00:26:43,883 --> 00:26:46,850 He puts in place these recording devices, 421 00:26:46,185 --> 00:26:48,688 like other presidents had, 422 00:26:48,788 --> 00:26:50,256 and then he'd go about being himself, 423 00:26:50,356 --> 00:26:52,570 and sometimes he'd let his hair down 424 00:26:52,157 --> 00:26:55,996 and say things in ways that he might not have said 425 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,320 had he remembered that each second of the day 426 00:26:59,132 --> 00:27:00,633 that it was being recorded. 427 00:27:00,733 --> 00:27:02,936 All of us say things we shouldn't say, 428 00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:05,872 that on reflection, we wish we hadn't said. 429 00:27:05,972 --> 00:27:08,675 I expect he just felt that on balance, 430 00:27:08,775 --> 00:27:10,110 everything was worth preserving 431 00:27:10,210 --> 00:27:12,990 because he was an historic figure. 432 00:28:06,250 --> 00:28:08,868 Did presidents after Nixon make recordings 433 00:28:08,968 --> 00:28:10,269 in the White House? 434 00:28:10,369 --> 00:28:12,337 The only president I was close enough to 435 00:28:12,437 --> 00:28:14,774 to answer that question about was Gerald R. Ford, 436 00:28:14,874 --> 00:28:17,310 and I can assure you he did not. 437 00:28:17,410 --> 00:28:21,140 My guess is that people tend not to fall 438 00:28:21,114 --> 00:28:23,149 in exactly the same potholes 439 00:28:23,249 --> 00:28:26,300 that their predecessors do. 440 00:28:27,300 --> 00:28:29,722 More often than not, they make original mistakes. 441 00:28:29,822 --> 00:28:31,725 We all do. 442 00:28:31,825 --> 00:28:35,295 But I assume the presidency under extraordinary... 443 00:28:35,395 --> 00:28:39,199 Gerald Ford had announced, when he first took office, 444 00:28:39,299 --> 00:28:43,236 that he was not gonna have a chief of staff. 445 00:28:43,336 --> 00:28:45,471 He was going to be the anti-Nixon, 446 00:28:45,571 --> 00:28:49,308 the anti-Haldeman, the anti-Ehrlichman. 447 00:28:49,408 --> 00:28:51,878 He had said he was gonna have a coordinator 448 00:28:51,978 --> 00:28:53,747 or something like that. 449 00:28:53,847 --> 00:28:54,879 And that's when I told him 450 00:28:55,310 --> 00:28:56,261 he'd have to find somebody else, 451 00:28:56,361 --> 00:28:57,883 because it wasn't gonna work, 452 00:28:57,983 --> 00:29:01,187 and I didn't want to be a party to it. 453 00:29:01,287 --> 00:29:05,112 After a while, he agreed that I was right. 454 00:29:08,112 --> 00:29:10,196 At the time, there were a number of people 455 00:29:10,296 --> 00:29:13,298 still being looked at by what was then called, 456 00:29:13,398 --> 00:29:17,804 "the special prosecutor." 457 00:29:17,904 --> 00:29:20,730 This is really an extraordinary moment. 458 00:29:20,173 --> 00:29:25,144 The White House is filled with lawyers and investigators. 459 00:29:25,244 --> 00:29:27,865 That's exactly right. 460 00:29:28,865 --> 00:29:32,451 It was September 29, 1974, 461 00:29:32,551 --> 00:29:35,200 in the morning that I dictated this memo 462 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,477 on the subject of the safe in the chief of staff's office. 463 00:29:40,477 --> 00:29:44,130 "I arrived at approximately 5:00 p.m. 464 00:29:44,230 --> 00:29:47,180 I wanted to clean out the place so that I could move in, 465 00:29:48,180 --> 00:29:50,503 and I wanted to make sure that there was nothing in the place 466 00:29:50,603 --> 00:29:52,304 that I didn't want there, 467 00:29:52,404 --> 00:29:57,477 such as recording equipment, telephone bugs, and the like. 468 00:29:57,577 --> 00:30:00,450 At approximately 5:15 p.m., 469 00:30:00,145 --> 00:30:03,160 bill Walker commented that there was a safe 470 00:30:03,116 --> 00:30:05,170 in the cupboard." 471 00:30:05,117 --> 00:30:08,600 This says, "to the left of the fireplace." 472 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:10,422 If you're standing in the fireplace, 473 00:30:10,522 --> 00:30:11,824 it was to the left. 474 00:30:11,924 --> 00:30:13,580 Actually, it was to the right 475 00:30:13,158 --> 00:30:14,576 if you faced the fireplace. 476 00:30:24,654 --> 00:30:26,406 So here's a safe, and it's locked. 477 00:30:26,506 --> 00:30:28,842 And I thought, "oh, my goodness. 478 00:30:28,942 --> 00:30:31,844 I wonder what's in that safe?" 479 00:30:31,944 --> 00:30:33,513 I said to Dick Cheney, 480 00:30:33,613 --> 00:30:35,414 my assistant who was helping me, 481 00:30:35,514 --> 00:30:37,483 "look, why don't we get the secret service, 482 00:30:37,583 --> 00:30:40,353 get 'em down here with people who can move the safe 483 00:30:40,453 --> 00:30:42,855 and open it or do whatever they have to do." 484 00:30:42,955 --> 00:30:45,570 And what happened to the safe in the end? 485 00:30:45,157 --> 00:30:48,930 The end for me was when I got it out of my office 486 00:30:48,193 --> 00:30:52,810 under a proper chain of evidence. 487 00:31:01,250 --> 00:31:05,372 ♪ I'm dreaming ♪ 488 00:31:05,472 --> 00:31:11,750 ♪ of a white Christmas ♪ 489 00:31:11,175 --> 00:31:12,175 ♪ just like the ones ♪ 490 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:18,200 ♪ I used to know ♪ 491 00:31:18,290 --> 00:31:22,228 ♪ where the treetops glisten ♪ 492 00:31:22,328 --> 00:31:24,290 ♪ and children listen ♪ 493 00:31:24,129 --> 00:31:25,364 They put the word out, 494 00:31:25,464 --> 00:31:27,255 "stay tuned to armed forces radio. 495 00:31:31,255 --> 00:31:32,604 When you hear it said 496 00:31:32,704 --> 00:31:37,176 that the temperature is rising to 105 degrees 497 00:31:37,276 --> 00:31:40,947 and you hear, 'I'm dreaming of a white Christmas,' 498 00:31:41,470 --> 00:31:43,236 you'll know the evacuation is ordered." 499 00:31:46,236 --> 00:31:50,923 The north Vietnamese and Viet Cong forces 500 00:31:51,230 --> 00:31:52,991 moved into Saigon 501 00:31:53,910 --> 00:31:56,150 directly towards the U.S. facilities. 502 00:32:00,150 --> 00:32:02,502 The scenes of the helicopter 503 00:32:02,602 --> 00:32:05,400 lifting people off of the roof of the building 504 00:32:05,104 --> 00:32:06,205 were really heartbreaking, 505 00:32:06,305 --> 00:32:08,141 because you had really wonderful people 506 00:32:08,241 --> 00:32:10,310 who'd worked with our forces 507 00:32:10,410 --> 00:32:12,445 and knew that their circumstance 508 00:32:12,545 --> 00:32:14,546 when the Vietcong and north Vietnamese 509 00:32:14,646 --> 00:32:17,216 took over that country would be difficult, 510 00:32:17,316 --> 00:32:20,218 that they'd be killed or put in jail. 511 00:32:20,318 --> 00:32:21,709 They kept lifting more and more out, 512 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:23,309 and more kept coming. 513 00:32:26,309 --> 00:32:28,260 They ended up landing so many helicopters 514 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,264 on the carrier that they started shoving helicopters off 515 00:32:31,364 --> 00:32:34,616 so that they could get more helicopters on. 516 00:32:49,333 --> 00:32:52,584 Were you with the president when all of this was going down? 517 00:32:52,684 --> 00:32:55,520 Yes, I was in the oval office 518 00:32:55,620 --> 00:32:58,123 with secretary Kissinger and the president 519 00:32:58,223 --> 00:33:01,781 and other close aides to the president. 520 00:33:04,781 --> 00:33:08,186 It was a day anyone involved will never forget. 521 00:33:10,186 --> 00:33:17,900 The inevitable ugly ending of an unsuccessful effort. 522 00:33:17,109 --> 00:33:20,532 Do you think that there's a lesson to be taken from this? 523 00:33:22,532 --> 00:33:24,283 Well, one would hope that most things 524 00:33:24,383 --> 00:33:28,121 that happen in life prove to be lessons. 525 00:33:28,221 --> 00:33:29,322 Some things work out. 526 00:33:29,422 --> 00:33:31,710 Some things don't. That didn't. 527 00:33:33,710 --> 00:33:36,363 If that's a lesson... yes, it's a lesson. 528 00:33:53,363 --> 00:33:56,248 President Gerald Ford had given a talk 529 00:33:56,348 --> 00:33:58,433 to a labor group. 530 00:34:05,209 --> 00:34:06,691 He went out the back, 531 00:34:06,791 --> 00:34:10,396 and we went into a freight elevator. 532 00:34:10,496 --> 00:34:12,130 The doors went open, 533 00:34:12,230 --> 00:34:13,432 we walked out, 534 00:34:13,532 --> 00:34:16,668 and the top door came back down, 535 00:34:16,768 --> 00:34:20,273 and it hit Gerald Ford right across the forehead. 536 00:34:20,373 --> 00:34:25,278 And he ended up with a cut about an inch and a half wide. 537 00:34:25,378 --> 00:34:28,113 Of course, at that moment, Chevy chase and these people 538 00:34:28,213 --> 00:34:30,182 were talking about Ford bumping his head 539 00:34:30,282 --> 00:34:32,773 or stumbling. 540 00:34:37,773 --> 00:34:40,193 So we went up in the room and the doctor started 541 00:34:40,293 --> 00:34:42,628 putting powder on it to see if he could calm it down 542 00:34:42,728 --> 00:34:45,298 so it didn't look like a neon sign. 543 00:34:45,398 --> 00:34:47,365 It came time to leave. 544 00:34:47,465 --> 00:34:49,735 He waved and shook hands. 545 00:34:49,835 --> 00:34:53,221 Got out to the street corner... 546 00:34:54,423 --> 00:34:55,725 A shot rang out. 547 00:34:57,561 --> 00:35:01,113 Sara Jane Moore was across the street, 548 00:35:01,213 --> 00:35:02,603 fired a bullet. 549 00:35:07,603 --> 00:35:08,820 It went by his head, 550 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:10,322 by the secret service guy's head, 551 00:35:10,422 --> 00:35:14,220 by my head. 552 00:35:16,213 --> 00:35:18,281 A matter of inches from both of us. 553 00:35:21,418 --> 00:35:22,568 We got in the car, 554 00:35:22,668 --> 00:35:24,436 pushed him down on the floor, and... 555 00:35:24,536 --> 00:35:26,606 Secret service man on top, I'm on top. 556 00:35:26,706 --> 00:35:28,857 The car races out of the city... 557 00:35:30,527 --> 00:35:32,912 ...not knowing what might be next. 558 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:34,880 Finally you hear this muffled thing 559 00:35:34,980 --> 00:35:36,615 from president Ford, and he says, 560 00:35:36,715 --> 00:35:37,749 "come on, you guys. 561 00:35:37,849 --> 00:35:39,217 Get off. You're heavy." 562 00:35:39,317 --> 00:35:41,354 And so we sat up, 563 00:35:41,454 --> 00:35:45,876 went to the airplane, and left. 564 00:35:46,876 --> 00:35:48,760 I used to tease him and say 565 00:35:48,860 --> 00:35:53,266 I hoped he appreciated fully how I handled his departure 566 00:35:53,366 --> 00:35:55,767 from the hotel in San Francisco. 567 00:35:55,867 --> 00:35:57,202 No one ever noticed 568 00:35:57,302 --> 00:35:59,965 that he had the neon sign on his forehead. 569 00:36:07,965 --> 00:36:11,751 "Mr. President, I care a great deal 570 00:36:11,851 --> 00:36:15,387 about you as a person and about your success. 571 00:36:15,487 --> 00:36:18,691 I care deeply about the country 572 00:36:18,791 --> 00:36:21,193 and believe it is vitally important 573 00:36:21,293 --> 00:36:23,528 that you be re-elected. 574 00:36:23,628 --> 00:36:27,300 The morale is low in the White House 575 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,757 because of the organizational approach you have tolerated. 576 00:36:33,757 --> 00:36:37,642 The job you need done cannot be done 577 00:36:37,742 --> 00:36:40,501 unless major changes take place." 578 00:36:44,501 --> 00:36:47,253 Dick Cheney and I both attached our resignations 579 00:36:47,353 --> 00:36:51,370 to the memo. 580 00:36:51,137 --> 00:36:52,525 There wasn't anything in the memo 581 00:36:52,625 --> 00:36:54,566 I hadn't talked to him about four, five, six times. 582 00:36:54,666 --> 00:36:57,262 I decided that putting it down in one place, 583 00:36:57,362 --> 00:36:58,798 deciding to resign, 584 00:36:58,898 --> 00:37:02,987 causing him to register how strongly we felt about it. 585 00:37:03,987 --> 00:37:07,472 He ended up separating the positions 586 00:37:07,572 --> 00:37:11,244 of secretary of state and national security advisor, 587 00:37:11,344 --> 00:37:13,679 which Henry had held both of them. 588 00:37:13,779 --> 00:37:17,749 And he made several other changes. 589 00:37:17,849 --> 00:37:19,318 Put George Herbert Walker bush 590 00:37:19,418 --> 00:37:22,588 in the central intelligence agency. 591 00:37:22,688 --> 00:37:25,458 He wanted to make a change at the Pentagon, 592 00:37:25,558 --> 00:37:28,894 asked me to become secretary of defense, 593 00:37:28,994 --> 00:37:33,398 then my deputy, Dick Cheney, to become chief of staff. 594 00:37:33,498 --> 00:37:37,637 Of course, this becomes known as the Halloween massacre. 595 00:37:37,737 --> 00:37:38,737 Oh. 596 00:37:38,938 --> 00:37:40,673 I guess it is. 597 00:37:40,773 --> 00:37:42,941 You know, a narrative gets built out there 598 00:37:43,410 --> 00:37:44,677 over a period of time. 599 00:37:44,777 --> 00:37:47,947 Big personalities going at each other. 600 00:37:48,470 --> 00:37:50,650 In fact, it's perfectly understandable. 601 00:37:50,750 --> 00:37:52,418 They represent different institutions, 602 00:37:52,518 --> 00:37:53,926 and they have different perspectives. 603 00:37:54,260 --> 00:37:55,787 But it gets written up in the media 604 00:37:55,887 --> 00:37:58,824 as though it's jealousies and personalities 605 00:37:58,924 --> 00:38:01,593 and that type of thing as opposed to 606 00:38:01,693 --> 00:38:03,349 different perspectives. 607 00:38:06,349 --> 00:38:08,668 When Shakespeare wrote history, 608 00:38:08,768 --> 00:38:14,706 it was all character defects, jealousies, 609 00:38:14,806 --> 00:38:16,876 misunderstandings, 610 00:38:16,976 --> 00:38:19,612 et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 611 00:38:19,712 --> 00:38:22,447 In Shakespeare, it's the motivating force 612 00:38:22,547 --> 00:38:23,547 of history. 613 00:38:28,137 --> 00:38:31,700 Maybe Shakespeare got it wrong. 614 00:38:32,700 --> 00:38:34,693 Well, you know, it was a different time. 615 00:38:34,793 --> 00:38:37,430 He was dealing with different issues. 616 00:38:37,530 --> 00:38:38,664 Maybe he had it right. 617 00:38:38,764 --> 00:38:41,210 Maybe it just was different later. 618 00:38:45,210 --> 00:38:48,574 Nelson Rockefeller has taken himself out of consideration 619 00:38:48,674 --> 00:38:50,108 as a vice presidential candidate 620 00:38:50,208 --> 00:38:51,910 on president Ford's ticket next year. 621 00:38:52,100 --> 00:38:53,671 Rockefeller has little choice in the matter. 622 00:38:53,771 --> 00:38:56,481 Rumsfeld's calculated plan to pave his own way 623 00:38:56,581 --> 00:38:58,416 as a running mate for president Ford. 624 00:38:58,516 --> 00:39:00,170 Donald Rumsfeld has been mentioned for months 625 00:39:00,270 --> 00:39:02,781 as a possible vice presidential running mate with president Ford. 626 00:39:03,500 --> 00:39:04,389 ...in congress think his new job 627 00:39:04,489 --> 00:39:05,758 as defense secretary is a means 628 00:39:05,858 --> 00:39:07,392 of putting Rumsfeld in the running 629 00:39:07,492 --> 00:39:08,994 for the vice presidency. 630 00:39:09,940 --> 00:39:11,300 Donald Rumsfeld takes over the Pentagon 631 00:39:11,130 --> 00:39:13,699 but also keeps most of his personal influence 632 00:39:13,799 --> 00:39:14,934 with president Ford. 633 00:39:15,340 --> 00:39:16,135 ...the shake-up took place. 634 00:39:16,235 --> 00:39:17,702 The consensus is that Rumsfeld 635 00:39:17,802 --> 00:39:19,370 again emerged the winner. 636 00:39:19,137 --> 00:39:20,505 Rumsfeld's conservative influence 637 00:39:20,605 --> 00:39:21,986 at the White House will be carried on 638 00:39:22,860 --> 00:39:23,842 by 34-year-old Richard Cheney, 639 00:39:23,942 --> 00:39:25,744 who said in his office this afternoon, 640 00:39:25,844 --> 00:39:29,101 he'll be running things just like don did. 641 00:39:31,101 --> 00:39:34,736 In November 1975... 642 00:39:36,873 --> 00:39:41,544 I became the youngest secretary of defense in history. 643 00:39:56,559 --> 00:39:57,876 It's important, I suppose, 644 00:39:57,976 --> 00:40:00,179 to go back and set the background 645 00:40:00,279 --> 00:40:02,702 for this occasion. 646 00:40:05,702 --> 00:40:08,820 Henry Kissinger had the job 647 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,191 of fostering Detentes, 648 00:40:13,291 --> 00:40:16,614 a lessening of tension with the Soviet Union. 649 00:40:18,614 --> 00:40:20,733 The more talk there was about Detentes 650 00:40:20,833 --> 00:40:22,568 and the more these negotiations went on 651 00:40:22,668 --> 00:40:26,639 and the more people sat around clinking champagne glasses 652 00:40:26,739 --> 00:40:28,206 with great big smiles, 653 00:40:28,306 --> 00:40:30,476 and the world saw all of that, 654 00:40:30,576 --> 00:40:32,100 the congress and the American people 655 00:40:32,110 --> 00:40:34,746 would not be in favor of increasing defense investment. 656 00:40:34,846 --> 00:40:38,550 It was really fundamental differences of approach. 657 00:40:38,650 --> 00:40:42,921 Weakness, historically, tends to prove to be provocative 658 00:40:43,210 --> 00:40:45,657 and create instabilities in wars and conflicts. 659 00:40:45,757 --> 00:40:47,827 Strength on our part will contribute 660 00:40:47,927 --> 00:40:49,268 to peace and stability in the world. 661 00:40:49,368 --> 00:40:50,695 I'm not saying with certainty 662 00:40:50,795 --> 00:40:51,863 that the Russians are coming. 663 00:40:51,963 --> 00:40:53,599 I'm saying the trends are here. 664 00:40:53,699 --> 00:40:55,400 I'm not saying the Russians are 10 feet tall. 665 00:40:55,500 --> 00:40:56,735 I'm saying they used to be 5'3". 666 00:40:56,835 --> 00:40:58,103 They're now 5'9 1/2", 667 00:40:58,203 --> 00:41:00,157 and they're growing, and we're not. 668 00:41:02,157 --> 00:41:06,878 To be brand-new in the department of defense 669 00:41:06,978 --> 00:41:11,916 with a presidential campaign going on, 670 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,253 my task was to meet with members of the United States congress. 671 00:41:15,353 --> 00:41:18,490 Small, intimate setting where I could take 672 00:41:18,590 --> 00:41:19,724 a classified briefing 673 00:41:19,824 --> 00:41:22,228 and show them the overhead photographs 674 00:41:22,328 --> 00:41:24,796 that were highly classified, that were top secret, 675 00:41:24,896 --> 00:41:28,253 let them see for themselves what the Soviet Union was doing. 676 00:41:31,253 --> 00:41:34,240 I would get 6 or 8 or 10 of them 677 00:41:34,340 --> 00:41:36,800 and bring them down to the Roosevelt room, 678 00:41:36,108 --> 00:41:37,842 which is right across from the oval office 679 00:41:37,942 --> 00:41:39,283 in the west wing of the White House. 680 00:41:39,383 --> 00:41:40,945 Not in the Pentagon; In the White House. 681 00:41:41,450 --> 00:41:44,148 In the White House, absolutely. 682 00:41:44,248 --> 00:41:46,170 If you have a meeting in the White House 683 00:41:46,117 --> 00:41:47,218 in the Roosevelt room, 684 00:41:47,318 --> 00:41:48,586 and the president stops by 685 00:41:48,686 --> 00:41:49,822 and says hello to 'em, 686 00:41:49,922 --> 00:41:54,590 it is much more memorable for them. 687 00:41:54,159 --> 00:41:56,896 I had a major fraction of all the United States senators 688 00:41:56,996 --> 00:41:58,863 and all the members of the congress 689 00:41:58,963 --> 00:42:00,231 come in to those meetings, 690 00:42:00,331 --> 00:42:04,680 you know, night after night after night. 691 00:42:04,168 --> 00:42:06,539 When you would show these photographs to people 692 00:42:06,639 --> 00:42:09,275 from satellites or from a U-2, 693 00:42:09,375 --> 00:42:11,300 people were amazed by them. 694 00:42:15,300 --> 00:42:20,753 In addition, we prepared a unclassified series of charts. 695 00:42:20,853 --> 00:42:25,256 One was on U.S./U.S.S.R. Military manpower. 696 00:42:25,356 --> 00:42:30,946 Another one had U.S. and Soviet military investment... 697 00:42:36,152 --> 00:42:39,590 Intercontinental ballistic missile developments... 698 00:42:44,590 --> 00:42:47,328 Changes in strategic force levels... 699 00:42:48,264 --> 00:42:52,284 Warheads, megatonnage, 700 00:42:52,384 --> 00:42:56,688 estimated production rates. 701 00:42:56,788 --> 00:42:59,925 No one statistic was determinative. 702 00:43:00,250 --> 00:43:02,910 What was important is, what were the trend lines? 703 00:43:27,404 --> 00:43:32,411 Did it come as a surprise that Carter beat Ford in 1976? 704 00:43:34,411 --> 00:43:39,231 He started out way behind. 705 00:43:39,331 --> 00:43:42,401 If it had gone on another week or two, 706 00:43:42,501 --> 00:43:45,888 he might very well have won. 707 00:44:06,275 --> 00:44:08,126 The republican national convention 708 00:44:08,226 --> 00:44:10,863 begins here tomorrow, and most of the players are in place. 709 00:44:10,963 --> 00:44:13,104 Everybody's playing the vice presidential guessing game. 710 00:44:13,204 --> 00:44:14,833 One big question remains. 711 00:44:14,933 --> 00:44:16,672 Who will be Reagan's vice presidential choice? 712 00:44:16,772 --> 00:44:18,549 The Republicans are floating some of the rumors 713 00:44:18,649 --> 00:44:20,139 in an effort to keep... 714 00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:22,130 the list includes former ambassador George Bush, 715 00:44:22,113 --> 00:44:23,742 who gave Reagan his toughest primary battle, 716 00:44:23,842 --> 00:44:25,711 or the defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld. 717 00:44:25,811 --> 00:44:27,570 The questions about Rumsfeld are whether his ties 718 00:44:27,670 --> 00:44:29,113 to republican big business are too close 719 00:44:29,213 --> 00:44:31,115 and whether he's too ambitious to fit in 720 00:44:31,215 --> 00:44:32,487 playing second fiddle to Reagan. 721 00:44:35,700 --> 00:44:38,691 There is the picture of Donald Rumsfeld 722 00:44:38,791 --> 00:44:43,295 as Machiavelli, and that you managed 723 00:44:43,395 --> 00:44:46,970 George H.W. Bush into the CIA 724 00:44:46,197 --> 00:44:50,101 as a way of destroying his presidential ambitions. 725 00:44:50,201 --> 00:44:52,300 It's utter nonsense. 726 00:44:52,103 --> 00:44:53,204 He had to know the truth. 727 00:44:53,304 --> 00:44:55,206 And why he would promote that idea... 728 00:44:55,306 --> 00:44:58,376 he must have believed it for some reason. 729 00:44:58,476 --> 00:45:00,445 I suppose it's kind of more fun for somebody 730 00:45:00,545 --> 00:45:02,780 to be able to say they were pushed, 731 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:04,938 rather than they tripped. 732 00:45:09,938 --> 00:45:13,825 Reagan was up a floor above. 733 00:45:13,925 --> 00:45:17,262 I was with my wife, Joyce. 734 00:45:17,362 --> 00:45:19,363 I had a man glued at my hip, 735 00:45:19,463 --> 00:45:22,401 ready to tell me if governor Reagan called 736 00:45:22,501 --> 00:45:25,523 and wanted me to be vice president. 737 00:45:27,523 --> 00:45:33,479 The press was filled with this excitement 738 00:45:33,579 --> 00:45:37,282 about the possibility of president Reagan 739 00:45:37,382 --> 00:45:39,517 selecting Gerald R. Ford. 740 00:45:39,617 --> 00:45:43,287 I was stunned at the thought. 741 00:45:43,387 --> 00:45:46,570 It's like sticking four hands on the steering wheel. 742 00:45:46,157 --> 00:45:48,793 You're gonna end up putting the truck in the ditch. 743 00:45:48,893 --> 00:45:50,280 My phone rang. 744 00:45:50,128 --> 00:45:51,996 It was governor Reagan. 745 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:54,266 He said, "don, 746 00:45:54,366 --> 00:45:57,336 I want you to know that I've decided to have 747 00:45:57,436 --> 00:46:02,173 George Bush be my vice presidential nominee." 748 00:46:02,273 --> 00:46:05,244 I said, "fantastic. 749 00:46:05,344 --> 00:46:08,113 I am so relieved 750 00:46:08,213 --> 00:46:11,160 that you decided not to have Gerald Ford." 751 00:46:11,116 --> 00:46:13,918 He said, "oh, no, don. 752 00:46:14,180 --> 00:46:15,988 Jerry and I decided together 753 00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:17,359 that it wouldn't be a good idea." 754 00:46:20,909 --> 00:46:23,950 It seems to me that if that decision 755 00:46:23,195 --> 00:46:25,264 had gone a slightly different way, 756 00:46:25,364 --> 00:46:27,331 you would have been vice president 757 00:46:27,431 --> 00:46:32,237 and future president of the United States. 758 00:46:32,337 --> 00:46:33,630 That's possible. 759 00:46:40,630 --> 00:46:43,182 I was living in Illinois 760 00:46:43,282 --> 00:46:46,851 and was chief executive officer of a pharmaceutical company, 761 00:46:46,951 --> 00:46:49,921 G.D. Searle and co. 762 00:46:50,210 --> 00:46:53,325 In a barracks in Beirut, 763 00:46:53,425 --> 00:46:57,563 a truck loaded with explosives 764 00:46:57,663 --> 00:47:01,418 came racing through the gate, under the building. 765 00:47:03,418 --> 00:47:07,427 Killed 241 Americans. 766 00:47:11,427 --> 00:47:14,345 Shortly after, the secretary of state, 767 00:47:14,445 --> 00:47:16,280 George Shultz, called and said 768 00:47:16,380 --> 00:47:18,316 that they wanted me to serve 769 00:47:18,416 --> 00:47:21,385 as special envoy for president Reagan 770 00:47:21,485 --> 00:47:22,621 to the Middle East. 771 00:47:22,721 --> 00:47:24,590 ...with our new representative. 772 00:47:24,690 --> 00:47:27,992 So, don, good luck, and our hearts are with you. 773 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:29,427 Mr. President... 774 00:47:29,527 --> 00:47:33,932 I began traveling in the region. 775 00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:38,436 I would send cables back 776 00:47:38,536 --> 00:47:43,929 trying to report back on my observations. 777 00:47:45,929 --> 00:47:50,314 I entitled one of them, back in November of 1983, 778 00:47:50,414 --> 00:47:52,175 "the swamp." 779 00:47:59,175 --> 00:48:01,459 "I suspect we ought to lighten our hand 780 00:48:01,559 --> 00:48:04,563 in the Middle East. 781 00:48:04,663 --> 00:48:08,566 We should move the framework away from the current situation 782 00:48:08,666 --> 00:48:11,570 where everyone is telling us everything is our fault 783 00:48:11,670 --> 00:48:13,639 and angry with us 784 00:48:13,739 --> 00:48:17,909 to a basis where they are seeking our help. 785 00:48:18,900 --> 00:48:21,120 In the future, we should never use U.S. troops 786 00:48:21,112 --> 00:48:25,150 as a peacekeeping force. 787 00:48:25,250 --> 00:48:28,487 We're too big a target. 788 00:48:28,587 --> 00:48:34,592 Let the Fijians or New Zealanders do that. 789 00:48:34,692 --> 00:48:36,193 And keep reminding ourselves 790 00:48:36,293 --> 00:48:39,197 that it is easier to get into something 791 00:48:39,297 --> 00:48:41,860 than it is to get out of it. 792 00:48:44,860 --> 00:48:45,304 I promise you, 793 00:48:45,404 --> 00:48:48,639 you will never hear out of my mouth the phrase, 794 00:48:48,739 --> 00:48:51,270 'the U.S. seeks a just and lasting peace 795 00:48:52,270 --> 00:48:53,766 in the Middle East.' 796 00:48:57,766 --> 00:49:00,519 there is little that is just, 797 00:49:00,619 --> 00:49:04,289 and the only things I've seen that are lasting 798 00:49:04,389 --> 00:49:09,182 are conflict, blackmail, and killing." 799 00:49:30,733 --> 00:49:34,653 We arrived at night, as I recall. 800 00:49:34,753 --> 00:49:40,570 The building where Saddam Hussein had his office 801 00:49:40,157 --> 00:49:41,325 had sandbags all around it 802 00:49:41,425 --> 00:49:42,760 because Baghdad is so close 803 00:49:42,860 --> 00:49:44,563 to the Iranian border. 804 00:49:44,663 --> 00:49:46,331 And they were at war with Iran, 805 00:49:46,431 --> 00:49:48,767 and they were being shelled from time to time. 806 00:49:48,867 --> 00:49:51,503 We went into this building, got in an elevator, 807 00:49:51,603 --> 00:49:53,572 went up, got out of the elevator, 808 00:49:53,672 --> 00:49:56,273 and the three or four people I was with 809 00:49:56,373 --> 00:49:57,476 were walking along. 810 00:49:57,576 --> 00:50:01,246 All of a sudden, an Iraqi cut me off 811 00:50:01,346 --> 00:50:04,449 and took me down a corridor, a dark corridor. 812 00:50:04,549 --> 00:50:07,586 Oh, yeah, I don't know, 20 paces, 30 paces. 813 00:50:07,686 --> 00:50:09,621 And then into a room. 814 00:50:09,721 --> 00:50:11,255 And I was alone in the room, 815 00:50:11,355 --> 00:50:13,458 and I looked up, and here is this man 816 00:50:13,558 --> 00:50:17,610 in fatigues with a pistol on his hip. 817 00:50:17,161 --> 00:50:19,300 And it turned out to be Tariq Aziz, 818 00:50:19,130 --> 00:50:22,856 the deputy prime minister and foreign minister. 819 00:50:27,856 --> 00:50:32,209 It was hours that we were in there talking alone. 820 00:50:32,309 --> 00:50:34,412 It looked like it had leather walls, 821 00:50:34,512 --> 00:50:35,746 padded walls, 822 00:50:35,846 --> 00:50:37,682 maybe Naugahyde or something. 823 00:50:37,782 --> 00:50:39,403 We would have a meeting with Saddam Hussein 824 00:50:39,503 --> 00:50:42,287 the next morning, and the time was set. 825 00:50:42,387 --> 00:50:46,246 And we went in, and there he was. 826 00:50:50,246 --> 00:50:55,666 A brutal dictator in his military fatigues 827 00:50:55,766 --> 00:50:57,759 with his pistol at his hip. 828 00:51:03,759 --> 00:51:05,443 It was just a preliminary step, 829 00:51:05,543 --> 00:51:07,495 and it became almost iconic... 830 00:51:08,831 --> 00:51:12,651 ...my shaking hands with this brutal dictator 831 00:51:12,751 --> 00:51:16,813 who later became known as "the butcher of Baghdad." 832 00:51:24,813 --> 00:51:26,564 He postured constantly 833 00:51:26,664 --> 00:51:30,534 and was presenting himself as the great leader, 834 00:51:30,634 --> 00:51:32,436 which dictators apparently do. 835 00:51:32,536 --> 00:51:36,208 They foster that, and have schoolkids praise them, 836 00:51:36,308 --> 00:51:38,409 make sure that their image is everywhere, 837 00:51:38,509 --> 00:51:41,278 whether in a photograph or a statue, 838 00:51:41,378 --> 00:51:45,117 and cause people to bow and kowtow. 839 00:51:45,217 --> 00:51:47,785 And, you know, if you see your picture everywhere 840 00:51:47,885 --> 00:51:50,621 long enough, and if you see enough statues, 841 00:51:50,721 --> 00:51:53,691 pretty soon you might even begin to believe that. 842 00:51:53,791 --> 00:51:57,528 He almost became a caricature of himself, 843 00:51:57,628 --> 00:52:02,800 by my standards, as an outsider not prone to worship idols. 844 00:52:02,900 --> 00:52:08,139 He was living his image of himself, 845 00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:10,597 which was pretend. 846 00:52:49,864 --> 00:52:51,383 There are those who suggest today 847 00:52:51,483 --> 00:52:52,883 that the United States is in decline, 848 00:52:52,983 --> 00:52:54,753 that, in fact, we should allow 849 00:52:54,853 --> 00:52:57,588 someone else to contribute to the stability in the world. 850 00:52:57,688 --> 00:52:59,356 I happen to disagree with that, 851 00:52:59,456 --> 00:53:01,293 and I think that we need to provide leadership, 852 00:53:01,393 --> 00:53:03,462 and I think that leadership can make an enormous difference 853 00:53:03,562 --> 00:53:06,898 in what the world's gonna look like in the 1990s and the year 2000. 854 00:53:06,998 --> 00:53:09,267 If you read the newspapers or watch television today, 855 00:53:09,367 --> 00:53:11,403 and you look at the polls, 856 00:53:11,503 --> 00:53:12,903 first they rank Gorbachev 857 00:53:13,300 --> 00:53:14,939 as the reason that these changes are occurring, 858 00:53:15,390 --> 00:53:16,840 and second, they gave Reagan some credit, 859 00:53:16,940 --> 00:53:18,909 which is ridiculous. 860 00:53:19,900 --> 00:53:21,746 The credit belongs to Truman and Adenauer 861 00:53:21,846 --> 00:53:24,583 and to steadfastness over a period of 40 years. 862 00:53:24,683 --> 00:53:26,300 The credit goes to the investments 863 00:53:27,300 --> 00:53:28,353 of billions of dollars 864 00:53:28,453 --> 00:53:29,884 over a long, sustained period of time 865 00:53:30,500 --> 00:53:32,423 by people who were carped at and criticized 866 00:53:32,523 --> 00:53:35,260 and said, "oh, my goodness, you're warmongers." 867 00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:37,628 It went to the concept of peace through strength. 868 00:53:37,728 --> 00:53:41,333 And we need to understand how we got to where we are, 869 00:53:41,433 --> 00:53:44,802 because going forward, we're gonna have to make a judgment 870 00:53:44,902 --> 00:53:47,606 as to what role our country ought to play, 871 00:53:47,706 --> 00:53:50,407 and a passive role would be terribly dangerous. 872 00:53:50,507 --> 00:53:51,642 But who do we want to lead... 873 00:53:51,742 --> 00:53:53,612 provide leadership in the world? 874 00:53:53,712 --> 00:53:54,712 Somebody else? 875 00:54:08,610 --> 00:54:11,496 We're here today to swear in don Rumsfeld 876 00:54:11,596 --> 00:54:13,465 as secretary of defense and welcome him back 877 00:54:13,565 --> 00:54:15,700 to the public service. 878 00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,570 We were colleagues in government for nearly six years, 879 00:54:18,670 --> 00:54:21,230 and here, quite simply, is a man who's been an executive, 880 00:54:22,230 --> 00:54:24,565 a statesman, and a human being of the first order. 881 00:54:30,565 --> 00:54:32,550 I assume that Dick Cheney brought you 882 00:54:32,650 --> 00:54:34,619 into the bush administration. 883 00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:37,289 I would assume that's the case. 884 00:54:37,389 --> 00:54:42,544 I don't think George W. Bush's father recommended it. 885 00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:51,702 Obviously, George W. Bush was his own man, 886 00:54:51,802 --> 00:54:54,458 made his own decisions. 887 00:54:56,458 --> 00:54:58,590 "Subject: Chain of command." 888 00:54:59,270 --> 00:55:02,414 A memo to Condoleezza Rice. 889 00:55:02,514 --> 00:55:05,550 "Because I've failed to get you and the N.S.C. Staff 890 00:55:05,650 --> 00:55:08,420 to stop giving tasks to combatant commanders 891 00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:09,753 and the joint staff, 892 00:55:09,853 --> 00:55:11,588 I've drafted the attached memorandum. 893 00:55:11,688 --> 00:55:13,570 I'd hoped it would not be necessary 894 00:55:13,157 --> 00:55:14,925 for me to do it this way, 895 00:55:15,250 --> 00:55:16,593 but since your last memo stated 896 00:55:16,693 --> 00:55:19,331 that we should work it out from our end, 897 00:55:19,431 --> 00:55:20,865 I'm forced to do so. 898 00:55:20,965 --> 00:55:22,534 You are making a mistake. 899 00:55:22,634 --> 00:55:24,680 You're not in the chain of command. 900 00:55:24,168 --> 00:55:27,500 Since you cannot seem to accept that fact, 901 00:55:27,105 --> 00:55:29,600 my only choices are to go to the president 902 00:55:29,106 --> 00:55:30,941 and ask him to tell you to stop 903 00:55:31,410 --> 00:55:34,790 or to tell anyone in the department of defense 904 00:55:34,179 --> 00:55:35,646 not to respond to you 905 00:55:35,746 --> 00:55:38,160 or the national security council staff. 906 00:55:38,116 --> 00:55:40,117 I've decided to take the latter course. 907 00:55:40,217 --> 00:55:42,420 If it fails, I'll have to go to the president. 908 00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:43,787 One way or other, it will stop, 909 00:55:43,887 --> 00:55:46,423 while I am secretary of defense. 910 00:55:46,523 --> 00:55:48,450 Thanks." 911 00:55:51,450 --> 00:55:52,764 Waging a high-profile war 912 00:55:52,864 --> 00:55:54,865 has thrust Donald Rumsfeld into the public eye. 913 00:55:54,965 --> 00:55:56,800 Two months into the war against terror... 914 00:55:56,900 --> 00:55:59,371 Rumsfeld, who has become the voice of the war. 915 00:55:59,471 --> 00:56:00,871 80% public approval. 916 00:56:00,971 --> 00:56:03,600 Give and take with the Pentagon press corps 917 00:56:03,106 --> 00:56:05,197 is now must-see television. 918 00:56:09,197 --> 00:56:10,514 Greetings. 919 00:56:10,614 --> 00:56:11,749 Good morning. 920 00:56:11,849 --> 00:56:13,151 Good afternoon. 921 00:56:13,251 --> 00:56:15,119 You know, something's neither good nor bad 922 00:56:15,219 --> 00:56:18,210 but thinking makes it so, I suppose. 923 00:56:18,121 --> 00:56:19,441 Yes, you may ask that... 924 00:56:20,708 --> 00:56:22,159 But will I answer that? No. 925 00:56:22,259 --> 00:56:23,862 I do not want the record to show 926 00:56:23,962 --> 00:56:26,300 that I even bothered to deny it, however. 927 00:56:26,130 --> 00:56:28,999 So I've decided that I'm not gonna go asking 928 00:56:29,990 --> 00:56:30,568 for an unclassified piece of paper. 929 00:56:30,668 --> 00:56:32,470 I don't need it. You need it. 930 00:56:32,570 --> 00:56:35,407 So you get told things every day that don't happen. 931 00:56:35,507 --> 00:56:36,907 It doesn't seem to bother people. 932 00:56:37,700 --> 00:56:39,677 But I'm working my way over to figuring out 933 00:56:39,777 --> 00:56:41,112 how I won't answer that. 934 00:56:41,212 --> 00:56:42,613 We'll make this the last question. 935 00:56:42,713 --> 00:56:44,182 Last question. 936 00:56:44,282 --> 00:56:45,937 Mr. secretary, could I just ask one thing about Gitmo? 937 00:56:46,370 --> 00:56:47,370 Oh, no, no, I love that ending. 938 00:56:47,137 --> 00:56:48,686 I'm...uh... 939 00:56:48,786 --> 00:56:51,143 if you think I'm gonna mess that one up, you're wrong. 940 00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:04,135 The U.S. and its Afghan allies clearly have the momentum 941 00:57:04,235 --> 00:57:06,700 in the battle for Tora Bora. 942 00:57:06,170 --> 00:57:08,230 Secretary Rumsfeld admitted it is unclear 943 00:57:09,230 --> 00:57:10,541 when this fight will end. 944 00:57:10,641 --> 00:57:12,510 The number of prisoners is climbing. 945 00:57:12,610 --> 00:57:14,912 Two weeks ago, secretary Rumsfeld dismissed 946 00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:17,115 the idea of detaining large numbers 947 00:57:17,215 --> 00:57:18,615 of captured fighters. 948 00:57:18,715 --> 00:57:20,517 Well, this week, he reversed himself, 949 00:57:20,617 --> 00:57:24,643 saying a large number would likely be taken into custody. 950 00:57:27,643 --> 00:57:30,228 "January 19, 2002." 951 00:57:30,328 --> 00:57:31,762 The subject: 952 00:57:31,862 --> 00:57:35,566 "Status of Taliban and Al-Qaeda." 953 00:57:35,666 --> 00:57:37,635 "The United States has determined 954 00:57:37,735 --> 00:57:40,704 that Al-Qaeda and Taliban individuals 955 00:57:40,804 --> 00:57:44,175 under the control of the department of defense, 956 00:57:44,275 --> 00:57:47,711 are not entitled to prisoner of war status 957 00:57:47,811 --> 00:57:52,684 for purposes of the Geneva conventions of 1949." 958 00:57:52,784 --> 00:57:54,918 Don't you think that the decision on Geneva 959 00:57:55,180 --> 00:57:57,722 caused so much trouble? 960 00:57:57,822 --> 00:58:00,758 Oh, my goodness, it would have been so much easier 961 00:58:00,858 --> 00:58:02,827 if you could treat people, all of them, 962 00:58:02,927 --> 00:58:06,630 the same as prisoners of war. 963 00:58:06,163 --> 00:58:09,990 Then you wouldn't have to interrogate anybody. 964 00:58:09,199 --> 00:58:13,604 You could just house them someplace. 965 00:58:13,704 --> 00:58:15,874 Now, would that have been a responsible thing 966 00:58:15,974 --> 00:58:18,742 for the president to do? No. 967 00:58:18,842 --> 00:58:22,180 The president needed to know what was gonna happen next. 968 00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:24,215 Every day, the intelligence reports said, 969 00:58:24,315 --> 00:58:25,849 "this is a risk. This is a risk. 970 00:58:25,949 --> 00:58:27,850 Watch out for this. Something could happen there." 971 00:58:27,950 --> 00:58:31,978 It was the responsibility of the president to try to prevent a future attack. 972 00:58:36,978 --> 00:58:38,662 Tell you what I'm gonna do. 973 00:58:38,762 --> 00:58:41,231 I am gonna stay here 974 00:58:41,331 --> 00:58:44,235 and answer as many detainee questions 975 00:58:44,335 --> 00:58:46,938 as need to be answered. 976 00:58:47,380 --> 00:58:48,499 I don't know that I'll know the answers 977 00:58:48,599 --> 00:58:49,807 to all the questions, but I... 978 00:58:49,907 --> 00:58:51,242 if I don't, we'll find them, 979 00:58:51,342 --> 00:58:54,120 because it seems to me it's time to tap down 980 00:58:54,112 --> 00:58:56,246 some of this hyperbole that we're finding. 981 00:58:56,346 --> 00:58:58,160 Mr. secretary... Mr. secretary... 982 00:58:58,116 --> 00:58:59,617 - Mr. secretary... - Mr. secretary. 983 00:58:59,717 --> 00:59:01,258 Is John Walker being treated the same way 984 00:59:01,358 --> 00:59:03,287 - as the other detainees? - Yes. 985 00:59:03,387 --> 00:59:04,856 Shackled, hooded in the transfer... 986 00:59:04,956 --> 00:59:06,557 oh, my goodness. Now, look. 987 00:59:06,657 --> 00:59:08,592 Is he being treated like the other detainees, 988 00:59:08,692 --> 00:59:10,994 shackled, hooded, and what have you? 989 00:59:11,940 --> 00:59:14,999 Oh, well, let me say this about that. 990 00:59:15,990 --> 00:59:18,702 When people are moved, they are restrained. 991 00:59:18,802 --> 00:59:21,639 That is true in prisons across the globe. 992 00:59:21,739 --> 00:59:25,709 Will any single prisoner be treated humanely? 993 00:59:25,809 --> 00:59:27,110 You bet. 994 00:59:27,210 --> 00:59:29,146 When they are being moved from place to place, 995 00:59:29,246 --> 00:59:30,914 will they be restrained in a way 996 00:59:31,140 --> 00:59:33,351 so that they are less likely to be able to 997 00:59:33,451 --> 00:59:35,153 kill an American soldier? 998 00:59:35,253 --> 00:59:36,287 You bet. 999 00:59:36,387 --> 00:59:39,570 Is it inhumane to do that? No. 1000 00:59:39,157 --> 00:59:40,791 Would it be stupid to do anything else? 1001 00:59:40,891 --> 00:59:41,891 Yes. 1002 00:59:42,192 --> 00:59:43,710 Mr. secretary... 1003 01:00:01,664 --> 01:00:04,000 what about all these so-called "torture memos?" 1004 01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:07,300 Well, there were, what, one or two or three. 1005 01:00:08,300 --> 01:00:10,210 I don't know the number, but there were not 1006 01:00:10,121 --> 01:00:12,122 "all" of these so-called memos. 1007 01:00:12,222 --> 01:00:14,892 They were mischaracterized as torture memos, 1008 01:00:14,992 --> 01:00:17,862 and they came, not out of the bush administration per se, 1009 01:00:17,962 --> 01:00:21,640 but they came out of the U.S. department of justice, 1010 01:00:21,164 --> 01:00:22,867 blessed by the Attorney General, 1011 01:00:22,967 --> 01:00:26,336 the senior legal official of the United States of America, 1012 01:00:26,436 --> 01:00:29,340 having been nominated by a president and confirmed 1013 01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:34,112 by the United States senate overwhelmingly. 1014 01:00:34,212 --> 01:00:36,146 Little different cast I just put on it 1015 01:00:36,246 --> 01:00:38,471 than the one you did. 1016 01:00:44,500 --> 01:00:47,258 I'll chalk that one up. 1017 01:00:47,358 --> 01:00:49,219 Was the reaction unfair? 1018 01:00:57,219 --> 01:00:59,202 Well, I've never read them. 1019 01:00:59,302 --> 01:01:00,438 - Really? - No. 1020 01:01:00,538 --> 01:01:02,364 I'm not a lawyer. What would I know? 1021 01:01:09,364 --> 01:01:12,749 I've never seen so much misinformation communicated 1022 01:01:12,849 --> 01:01:18,309 about a place than was the case about Guantanamo bay, Cuba. 1023 01:01:21,309 --> 01:01:25,162 This prison was exceedingly well-run, 1024 01:01:25,262 --> 01:01:26,997 yet the impression that's left 1025 01:01:27,970 --> 01:01:29,834 is that it was a terrible place, 1026 01:01:29,934 --> 01:01:33,700 and people were tortured, and people were abused. 1027 01:01:33,170 --> 01:01:34,838 Prisons aren't pretty places, 1028 01:01:34,938 --> 01:01:37,742 but that prison is probably as well-run 1029 01:01:37,842 --> 01:01:39,398 as any prison on the face of the earth. 1030 01:01:43,398 --> 01:01:47,985 If you go and ask somebody in a big audience, 1031 01:01:48,850 --> 01:01:50,540 "how many people do you think were waterboarded 1032 01:01:50,154 --> 01:01:52,289 at Guantanamo?" 1033 01:01:52,389 --> 01:01:54,892 And people stick their hands up, and someone will say, 1034 01:01:54,992 --> 01:01:56,260 "well, hundreds." 1035 01:01:56,360 --> 01:01:58,329 The answer is, "nobody." 1036 01:01:58,429 --> 01:02:01,999 Zero were waterboarded at Guantanamo. 1037 01:02:02,990 --> 01:02:04,802 The military never waterboarded anybody 1038 01:02:04,902 --> 01:02:06,137 in an interrogation. 1039 01:02:06,237 --> 01:02:09,407 The CIA waterboarded, as I understand it, 1040 01:02:09,507 --> 01:02:11,175 three people. 1041 01:02:11,275 --> 01:02:13,478 But it wasn't at Guantanamo, and it wasn't done 1042 01:02:13,578 --> 01:02:16,914 by the United States department of defense. 1043 01:02:17,140 --> 01:02:18,849 Al Qahtani was never waterboarded? 1044 01:02:18,949 --> 01:02:19,949 No. 1045 01:02:20,918 --> 01:02:22,220 Now, were there some things done 1046 01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:24,188 that shouldn't have been done at Guantanamo? 1047 01:02:24,288 --> 01:02:25,288 You bet. 1048 01:02:47,161 --> 01:02:48,512 When someone looked like they were 1049 01:02:48,612 --> 01:02:50,347 a very high-value detainee, 1050 01:02:50,447 --> 01:02:52,383 the department of defense didn't deal with them. 1051 01:02:52,483 --> 01:02:55,853 The central intelligence agency did, and properly so. 1052 01:02:55,953 --> 01:02:59,157 In the case of Qahtani, 1053 01:02:59,257 --> 01:03:01,250 he was a high-value detainee, 1054 01:03:01,125 --> 01:03:05,162 and for some reason, he wasn't transferred. 1055 01:03:05,262 --> 01:03:07,231 Someone junior in the chain of command 1056 01:03:07,331 --> 01:03:10,834 decided that he was probably the 20th hijacker. 1057 01:03:10,934 --> 01:03:13,700 General hill wrote a memo. 1058 01:03:13,170 --> 01:03:16,407 "There are three categories of interrogation techniques 1059 01:03:16,507 --> 01:03:19,276 that we would like you to consider for approval." 1060 01:03:19,376 --> 01:03:21,813 How unusual were these techniques? 1061 01:03:21,913 --> 01:03:23,280 Oh, they ran the gamut. 1062 01:03:23,380 --> 01:03:25,516 One of the techniques recommended was waterboarding, 1063 01:03:25,616 --> 01:03:28,151 which I rejected. 1064 01:03:28,251 --> 01:03:31,488 Others would be, "yelling at the detainee, 1065 01:03:31,588 --> 01:03:32,990 techniques of deception, 1066 01:03:33,900 --> 01:03:34,551 where you'd use multiple interrogator... 1067 01:03:34,651 --> 01:03:36,120 interviewer may identify himself 1068 01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:38,262 as a citizen of a foreign... 1069 01:03:38,362 --> 01:03:40,630 with a reputation for harsh treatment... 1070 01:03:40,163 --> 01:03:41,298 category II techniques... 1071 01:03:41,398 --> 01:03:42,867 stress positions, like standing, 1072 01:03:42,967 --> 01:03:44,168 for a maximum of four hours. 1073 01:03:44,268 --> 01:03:45,540 Falsified documents or reports... 1074 01:03:46,210 --> 01:03:47,900 the use of isolation facility for up to 30 days. 1075 01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:49,606 Deprivation of light and auditory stimuli. 1076 01:03:49,706 --> 01:03:51,142 Hood placed over his head 1077 01:03:51,242 --> 01:03:52,843 during transportation and questioning. 1078 01:03:52,943 --> 01:03:54,445 20 hour interrogations. 1079 01:03:54,545 --> 01:03:56,686 Removal of all comfort items, including religious items. 1080 01:03:56,786 --> 01:03:59,383 Removal of clothing. Forced grooming, shaving of facial hair. 1081 01:03:59,483 --> 01:04:02,190 Detainee individual phobias, such fear of dogs, 1082 01:04:02,119 --> 01:04:03,354 to induce stress. 1083 01:04:03,454 --> 01:04:05,523 Category III techniques. Use of non... 1084 01:04:05,623 --> 01:04:09,994 physical contact such as grabbing and light pushing." 1085 01:04:10,940 --> 01:04:11,516 I think that's all. 1086 01:04:14,516 --> 01:04:18,956 Good grief, that's a pile of stuff. 1087 01:04:20,956 --> 01:04:24,175 Jim Haynes, the general counsel, 1088 01:04:24,275 --> 01:04:26,409 sent it to me with a cover memo. 1089 01:04:26,509 --> 01:04:28,646 "I recommend that you approve most of the things 1090 01:04:28,746 --> 01:04:31,282 in category I, if not all, 1091 01:04:31,382 --> 01:04:33,617 most of the things in category II, if not all, 1092 01:04:33,717 --> 01:04:36,454 and one or two or three of the things in category III. 1093 01:04:36,554 --> 01:04:38,555 But disapprove the others." 1094 01:04:38,655 --> 01:04:41,525 I remember one of the things required that 1095 01:04:41,625 --> 01:04:44,561 he'd stand for three or four, five, six hours. 1096 01:04:44,661 --> 01:04:47,398 When I approved it, I wrote down that, you know, 1097 01:04:47,498 --> 01:04:49,499 I stand for eight or ten hours a day. 1098 01:04:49,599 --> 01:04:51,390 I forget what I said, but something like that. 1099 01:04:54,188 --> 01:04:56,307 Needless to say, I did not intend 1100 01:04:56,407 --> 01:04:59,331 that my memo would then be sent back down the chain of command. 1101 01:05:02,331 --> 01:05:06,584 In the case of Qahtani, 1102 01:05:06,684 --> 01:05:08,552 some of the things that were done to him 1103 01:05:08,652 --> 01:05:10,175 were not approved. 1104 01:05:14,175 --> 01:05:16,660 And the interrogation plan 1105 01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:19,162 involving the duration and the combination 1106 01:05:19,262 --> 01:05:23,456 of the techniques was not proper. 1107 01:05:27,456 --> 01:05:29,606 Up came a concern expressed to the general counsel. 1108 01:05:29,706 --> 01:05:31,972 "We hear some of these things are being done to this fellow 1109 01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:34,445 that aren't approved or aren't proper 1110 01:05:34,545 --> 01:05:35,947 in the interrogation plan." 1111 01:05:36,470 --> 01:05:37,180 And he came in and told me, 1112 01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:40,840 and I immediately rescinded that memo. 1113 01:05:40,184 --> 01:05:42,353 Some weeks later, we reissued 1114 01:05:42,453 --> 01:05:45,121 the enhanced interrogation techniques. 1115 01:05:45,221 --> 01:05:47,724 There was criticism from some of the military people 1116 01:05:47,824 --> 01:05:50,695 in the chain that by suspending them 1117 01:05:50,795 --> 01:05:52,229 for a period of weeks, 1118 01:05:52,329 --> 01:05:55,222 we were putting at risk the American people. 1119 01:06:00,222 --> 01:06:05,175 How do you know when you're going too far? 1120 01:06:05,275 --> 01:06:08,278 You can't know with certainty. 1121 01:06:08,378 --> 01:06:11,503 All the easy decisions are made down below. 1122 01:06:15,503 --> 01:06:17,287 When you say, "how can you know?" 1123 01:06:17,387 --> 01:06:19,490 The answer is, "you can't." 1124 01:06:19,590 --> 01:06:23,561 Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could see around corners, 1125 01:06:23,661 --> 01:06:25,595 have our imaginations anticipate 1126 01:06:25,695 --> 01:06:27,999 every conceivable thing that could happen and then, 1127 01:06:28,990 --> 01:06:30,267 from that full array and spectrum, 1128 01:06:30,367 --> 01:06:33,795 pick out the ones that will happen? 1129 01:06:56,677 --> 01:06:58,528 Is there any evidence to indicate 1130 01:06:58,628 --> 01:07:03,200 that Iraq has attempted to or is willing to supply 1131 01:07:03,300 --> 01:07:05,535 terrorists with weapons of mass destruction? 1132 01:07:05,635 --> 01:07:08,572 As we know, there are known knowns. 1133 01:07:08,672 --> 01:07:10,608 There are things we know we know. 1134 01:07:10,708 --> 01:07:12,709 We also know there are known unknowns. 1135 01:07:12,809 --> 01:07:14,677 That is to say, we know there's some things 1136 01:07:14,777 --> 01:07:16,447 we do not know. 1137 01:07:16,547 --> 01:07:18,782 But there are also unknown unknowns, 1138 01:07:18,882 --> 01:07:21,217 the ones we don't know we don't know. 1139 01:07:21,317 --> 01:07:24,488 We just want to know, are you aware of any evidence, 1140 01:07:24,588 --> 01:07:26,657 because that would increase our level of belief 1141 01:07:26,757 --> 01:07:28,793 from faith to something that would be... 1142 01:07:28,893 --> 01:07:31,780 - Yeah... - Based on evidence. 1143 01:07:32,780 --> 01:07:36,990 "Subject: To discuss with P.," 1144 01:07:36,199 --> 01:07:40,671 meaning the president of the United States. 1145 01:07:40,771 --> 01:07:43,106 "The absence of evidence 1146 01:07:43,206 --> 01:07:45,132 is not evidence of absence." 1147 01:07:50,132 --> 01:07:54,840 When you say, "the absence of evidence 1148 01:07:54,184 --> 01:07:57,521 is not evidence of absence," what you're saying 1149 01:07:57,621 --> 01:08:02,920 is that there is an absence of evidence about something, 1150 01:08:02,192 --> 01:08:07,664 but you ought not to say that therefore that is proof 1151 01:08:07,764 --> 01:08:09,733 that something doesn't exist. 1152 01:08:09,833 --> 01:08:13,637 It's an easy thing to go from the first part of that 1153 01:08:13,737 --> 01:08:15,438 in the wrong direction and say, 1154 01:08:15,538 --> 01:08:21,178 "well, the absence of evidence means it isn't there." 1155 01:08:21,278 --> 01:08:23,179 If an inspection team goes in now 1156 01:08:23,279 --> 01:08:24,714 and finds nothing because 1157 01:08:24,814 --> 01:08:26,616 perhaps Iraq is very good at hiding it 1158 01:08:26,716 --> 01:08:28,885 or perhaps they have nothing... 1159 01:08:28,985 --> 01:08:30,854 but you all are of the belief that they have it... 1160 01:08:30,954 --> 01:08:33,790 if they find nothing, does it make your job more difficult 1161 01:08:33,890 --> 01:08:37,128 in trying to assemble an international coalition 1162 01:08:37,228 --> 01:08:40,216 to disarm him by other means? 1163 01:08:42,216 --> 01:08:44,168 Goodness gracious, that is kind of like 1164 01:08:44,268 --> 01:08:47,403 looking down the road for every conceivable pothole 1165 01:08:47,503 --> 01:08:49,906 you can find and then driving into it. 1166 01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:52,476 I just don't... I don't get up in the morning 1167 01:08:52,576 --> 01:08:54,611 and ask myself that. 1168 01:08:54,711 --> 01:08:55,711 The... 1169 01:08:56,546 --> 01:08:58,915 we know they have weapons of mass destruction. 1170 01:08:59,150 --> 01:09:00,851 We know they have active programs. 1171 01:09:00,951 --> 01:09:05,156 There isn't any debate about it. 1172 01:09:05,256 --> 01:09:09,492 It was thought to be the best intelligence available. 1173 01:09:09,592 --> 01:09:10,728 How do you describe it 1174 01:09:10,828 --> 01:09:13,597 when it turns out to be not accurate? 1175 01:09:13,697 --> 01:09:16,299 Do you describe that as a failure of intelligence? 1176 01:09:16,399 --> 01:09:20,670 I suppose some can, not unfairly, suggest that. 1177 01:09:20,770 --> 01:09:23,506 Saddam Hussein may have been fearful 1178 01:09:23,606 --> 01:09:26,876 that he would be discovered as having those weapons, 1179 01:09:26,976 --> 01:09:29,179 removed them or destroyed them, 1180 01:09:29,279 --> 01:09:32,916 but not wanted to tell anybody that he'd done so. 1181 01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:36,187 He may have destroyed them, 1182 01:09:36,287 --> 01:09:38,289 unwilling to admit it, 1183 01:09:38,389 --> 01:09:42,759 fearful of being seen as weak. 1184 01:09:42,859 --> 01:09:46,696 Wouldn't it be strange if he had destroyed his W.M.D. 1185 01:09:46,796 --> 01:09:48,952 And got invaded anyway? 1186 01:09:50,952 --> 01:09:52,942 Of course, I'm not suggesting that that's the case. 1187 01:09:53,420 --> 01:09:56,206 I honestly do not know what the case is. 1188 01:09:56,306 --> 01:09:59,843 All I know is that the intelligence community 1189 01:09:59,943 --> 01:10:04,747 persuaded the president and secretary Powell. 1190 01:10:04,847 --> 01:10:07,380 He spent days preparing himself to make his presentation 1191 01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:09,620 to the united nations. 1192 01:10:09,720 --> 01:10:12,322 And he spent years trying to explain 1193 01:10:12,422 --> 01:10:14,592 why he had done it. 1194 01:10:14,692 --> 01:10:16,393 It's a short sentence. 1195 01:10:16,493 --> 01:10:18,951 The reason he presented it was 'cause he believed it. 1196 01:10:22,951 --> 01:10:25,603 "October 15, 2001. 1197 01:10:25,703 --> 01:10:28,272 Subject: Definition. 1198 01:10:28,372 --> 01:10:31,800 Please give me a good definition for terrorism 1199 01:10:31,108 --> 01:10:34,644 and some elaboration as to what it is and what it isn't." 1200 01:10:34,744 --> 01:10:37,348 "December 28, 2001. 1201 01:10:37,448 --> 01:10:41,751 Subject: Adopting common terminology. 1202 01:10:41,851 --> 01:10:45,656 I suggest we use the following terms. 1203 01:10:45,756 --> 01:10:47,424 'Afghan Taliban': 1204 01:10:47,524 --> 01:10:50,460 Afghan officials and fighters of the former regime." 1205 01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:53,363 "October 31, 2002. 1206 01:10:53,463 --> 01:10:55,633 Subject: Definition of victory. 1207 01:10:55,733 --> 01:10:57,800 Where is that definition of victory?" 1208 01:10:57,900 --> 01:11:00,571 "January 6, 2003. 1209 01:11:00,671 --> 01:11:02,673 Subject: Terminology. 1210 01:11:02,773 --> 01:11:04,575 I want to make a list of things 1211 01:11:04,675 --> 01:11:05,909 I've done at the Pentagon, 1212 01:11:06,900 --> 01:11:09,879 like getting rid of words. 1213 01:11:09,979 --> 01:11:13,584 National missile defense, requirements, 1214 01:11:13,684 --> 01:11:16,887 readiness... ready for what?" 1215 01:11:16,987 --> 01:11:19,923 "October 1, 2003. 1216 01:11:20,230 --> 01:11:23,994 Subject: Please get me the Oxford dictionary definition 1217 01:11:24,940 --> 01:11:26,362 of 'several' and type it up for me. 1218 01:11:26,462 --> 01:11:27,598 Thanks." 1219 01:11:27,698 --> 01:11:29,933 "May 14, 2004. 1220 01:11:30,330 --> 01:11:31,535 Definition. 1221 01:11:31,635 --> 01:11:34,710 Please give me the dictionary definition 1222 01:11:34,171 --> 01:11:38,280 of 'scapegoat.' 1223 01:11:38,380 --> 01:11:39,380 thanks." 1224 01:11:42,497 --> 01:11:47,840 And where did this term "shock and awe" come from? 1225 01:11:47,184 --> 01:11:48,552 I don't know. 1226 01:11:48,652 --> 01:11:51,487 Apparently, general Franks read it. 1227 01:11:51,587 --> 01:11:53,890 He used it. 1228 01:11:53,189 --> 01:11:57,428 It became part of a press discussion. 1229 01:11:57,528 --> 01:12:00,597 But the idea of shock and awe? 1230 01:12:00,697 --> 01:12:04,190 I've told you all I know about that phrase. 1231 01:13:09,984 --> 01:13:11,934 I picked up a newspaper today, 1232 01:13:12,340 --> 01:13:13,903 and I couldn't believe it. 1233 01:13:14,300 --> 01:13:18,800 I read eight headlines that talked about chaos, 1234 01:13:18,108 --> 01:13:20,744 violence, unrest. 1235 01:13:20,844 --> 01:13:22,513 And it just was, "Henny Penny, 1236 01:13:22,613 --> 01:13:23,714 the sky is falling." 1237 01:13:23,814 --> 01:13:25,182 I've never seen anything like it. 1238 01:13:25,282 --> 01:13:27,651 And here is a country that's being liberated. 1239 01:13:27,751 --> 01:13:30,586 Here are people who are going from being 1240 01:13:30,686 --> 01:13:32,540 repressed and held under the thumb 1241 01:13:32,154 --> 01:13:34,424 of a vicious dictator, and they're free, 1242 01:13:34,524 --> 01:13:36,626 and all this newspaper could do, 1243 01:13:36,726 --> 01:13:38,562 with 8 or 10 headlines... 1244 01:13:38,662 --> 01:13:39,862 they showed a man bleeding, 1245 01:13:39,962 --> 01:13:42,732 a civilian who they claimed we had shot. 1246 01:13:42,832 --> 01:13:46,437 One thing after another, it's just unbelievable 1247 01:13:46,537 --> 01:13:48,705 how people can take that away 1248 01:13:48,805 --> 01:13:51,607 from what is happening in that country. 1249 01:13:51,707 --> 01:13:54,111 Stuff happens. 1250 01:13:54,211 --> 01:13:56,820 But in terms of what's going on in that country, 1251 01:13:57,300 --> 01:14:00,451 it is a fundamental misunderstanding 1252 01:14:00,551 --> 01:14:03,986 to see those images over and over and over again 1253 01:14:04,860 --> 01:14:05,988 of some boy walking out with a vase, 1254 01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:07,458 and saying, "oh, my goodness. 1255 01:14:07,558 --> 01:14:08,892 You didn't have a plan." 1256 01:14:08,992 --> 01:14:10,590 That's nonsense. 1257 01:14:10,159 --> 01:14:11,628 They know what they're doing, 1258 01:14:11,728 --> 01:14:13,620 and they're doing a terrific job. 1259 01:14:13,162 --> 01:14:15,131 And it's untidy, and freedom's untidy, 1260 01:14:15,231 --> 01:14:17,233 and free people are free to make mistakes 1261 01:14:17,333 --> 01:14:20,360 and commit crimes and do bad things. 1262 01:14:20,136 --> 01:14:22,606 They're also free to live their lives 1263 01:14:22,706 --> 01:14:23,941 and do wonderful things. 1264 01:14:24,410 --> 01:14:25,642 And that's what's gonna happen here. 1265 01:14:25,742 --> 01:14:27,701 Mr. secretary... 1266 01:14:33,701 --> 01:14:36,486 this was another violent day in the streets of Baghdad. 1267 01:14:36,586 --> 01:14:38,621 One of Washington's nightmares came true today. 1268 01:14:38,721 --> 01:14:41,191 The bush administration is admitting it wasn't fully 1269 01:14:41,291 --> 01:14:44,161 prepared for the huge task of governing post-war Iraq. 1270 01:14:44,261 --> 01:14:46,729 Now troops patrol these streets knowing that to many, 1271 01:14:46,829 --> 01:14:48,764 they are not liberators, but occupiers. 1272 01:14:48,864 --> 01:14:50,205 It's a situation the Pentagon admits 1273 01:14:50,305 --> 01:14:51,701 it failed to anticipate. 1274 01:14:51,801 --> 01:14:53,269 The Pentagon is scoffing at suggestions 1275 01:14:53,369 --> 01:14:56,625 that an organized guerrilla resistance is forming. 1276 01:14:57,625 --> 01:15:02,800 "July 23, 2003." 1277 01:15:02,180 --> 01:15:03,914 To general John Abizaid. 1278 01:15:04,140 --> 01:15:07,183 "Subject: Definitions. 1279 01:15:07,283 --> 01:15:12,990 Attached are the definitions of 'guerilla warfare,' 1280 01:15:13,900 --> 01:15:19,282 'insurgency,' and 'unconventional warfare.' 1281 01:15:21,282 --> 01:15:24,535 they came from the Pentagon dictionary. 1282 01:15:24,635 --> 01:15:26,224 Thanks." 1283 01:15:30,224 --> 01:15:32,276 It seemed to me that there are ways 1284 01:15:32,376 --> 01:15:35,646 you can talk about what the enemy's doing 1285 01:15:35,746 --> 01:15:38,615 that help the enemy unintentionally 1286 01:15:38,715 --> 01:15:42,184 and ways you can talk about what the enemy's doing 1287 01:15:42,284 --> 01:15:43,553 that harm the enemy, 1288 01:15:43,653 --> 01:15:46,689 that make his task less legitimate, 1289 01:15:46,789 --> 01:15:47,857 more difficult. 1290 01:15:47,957 --> 01:15:49,660 What you're seeing is 1291 01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:53,563 Rumsfeld floundering around, trying to figure out, 1292 01:15:53,663 --> 01:15:55,310 what do all those words mean? 1293 01:15:55,131 --> 01:15:57,670 What do other people think they mean? 1294 01:15:57,167 --> 01:15:59,169 What are the best ones to use 1295 01:15:59,269 --> 01:16:02,138 that will benefit the United States of America? 1296 01:16:02,238 --> 01:16:05,909 One of you suggested I go to the dictionary. 1297 01:16:06,900 --> 01:16:07,710 I didn't ask this question. 1298 01:16:07,810 --> 01:16:09,646 Yes, but he would have. 1299 01:16:09,746 --> 01:16:11,982 I have since gone to the dictionary, 1300 01:16:12,820 --> 01:16:14,851 and I have looked up several things, 1301 01:16:14,951 --> 01:16:16,853 one of which I can't immediately recapture, 1302 01:16:16,953 --> 01:16:18,854 but one was "guerrilla war." 1303 01:16:18,954 --> 01:16:20,220 Another was "insurgency." 1304 01:16:20,122 --> 01:16:22,625 Another was "unconventional war." 1305 01:16:22,725 --> 01:16:23,826 Pardon me? 1306 01:16:23,926 --> 01:16:25,112 "Quagmire"? 1307 01:16:26,648 --> 01:16:29,732 No, that's someone else's business. 1308 01:16:29,832 --> 01:16:31,867 Quagmire's the... I don't do quagmires. 1309 01:16:31,967 --> 01:16:34,137 As I looked at the dictionary, 1310 01:16:34,237 --> 01:16:36,272 I'm not uncomfortable with "unconventional," 1311 01:16:36,372 --> 01:16:38,842 because it is not an army, and it is not a Navy, 1312 01:16:38,942 --> 01:16:40,677 and it is not an air force. 1313 01:16:40,777 --> 01:16:42,646 But even there, the dictionary... 1314 01:16:42,746 --> 01:16:43,946 the Pentagon dictionary... 1315 01:16:44,460 --> 01:16:46,100 I haven't looked in a regular dictionary. 1316 01:16:47,100 --> 01:16:51,254 The Pentagon dictionary does not even land that one perfectly 1317 01:16:51,354 --> 01:16:52,354 on what's taking place. 1318 01:16:56,344 --> 01:16:57,905 The bush administration has been 1319 01:16:58,110 --> 01:16:59,929 on a stepped-up P.R. Campaign 1320 01:17:00,290 --> 01:17:01,798 to stop the erosion of support at home 1321 01:17:01,898 --> 01:17:03,634 for the dangerous mission in Iraq. 1322 01:17:03,734 --> 01:17:05,635 Today, an unprecedented series of bombings 1323 01:17:05,735 --> 01:17:07,336 left a trail of death and devastation. 1324 01:17:07,436 --> 01:17:09,740 The concern that Iraq's reconstruction is, 1325 01:17:09,840 --> 01:17:12,342 in fact, falling well short of expectations. 1326 01:17:12,442 --> 01:17:14,378 Today in Fallujah, Iraqi guerrillas 1327 01:17:14,478 --> 01:17:17,214 used a roadside bomb to bring an American patrol to... 1328 01:17:17,314 --> 01:17:20,349 Briggs accused the Rumsfeld team of being under-prepared 1329 01:17:20,449 --> 01:17:23,353 for post-war conditions on the ground and unwilling 1330 01:17:23,453 --> 01:17:25,888 to share decision-making with other government agencies. 1331 01:17:25,988 --> 01:17:27,991 Acknowledgement that long-simmering tensions 1332 01:17:28,910 --> 01:17:30,861 over Iraq and its aftermath, particularly between 1333 01:17:30,961 --> 01:17:32,728 the departments of state and defense, 1334 01:17:32,828 --> 01:17:34,980 have now reached full boil. 1335 01:17:46,327 --> 01:17:49,379 October of 2003. 1336 01:17:49,479 --> 01:17:52,314 I became worried that we were having trouble 1337 01:17:52,414 --> 01:17:55,419 measuring progress, 1338 01:17:55,519 --> 01:17:58,775 and I wrote a memo called "global war on terror." 1339 01:18:01,775 --> 01:18:06,796 "Are we winning or losing the global war on terror? 1340 01:18:06,896 --> 01:18:10,000 Is D.O.D. Changing fast enough to deal 1341 01:18:10,100 --> 01:18:14,490 with the new 21st-century security environment? 1342 01:18:16,490 --> 01:18:20,943 Are the changes we have and are making too modest 1343 01:18:21,430 --> 01:18:23,199 and incremental? 1344 01:18:26,199 --> 01:18:28,719 My impression is that we have not yet 1345 01:18:28,819 --> 01:18:31,254 made truly bold moves, 1346 01:18:31,354 --> 01:18:35,357 although we have made many sensible, logical moves 1347 01:18:35,457 --> 01:18:37,940 in the right direction." 1348 01:18:37,194 --> 01:18:39,140 "But are they enough," I asked. 1349 01:18:40,140 --> 01:18:41,897 "Today we lack metrics to know 1350 01:18:41,997 --> 01:18:45,768 if we are winning or losing the global war on terror. 1351 01:18:45,868 --> 01:18:50,400 Are we killing or deterring more terrorists every day 1352 01:18:50,140 --> 01:18:52,843 than the madrassas and the radical clerics 1353 01:18:52,943 --> 01:18:56,479 are recruiting and deploying against us? 1354 01:18:56,579 --> 01:18:59,516 It's pretty clear that the coalition can win 1355 01:18:59,616 --> 01:19:03,419 in Afghanistan and Iraq 1356 01:19:03,519 --> 01:19:06,356 in one way or another, 1357 01:19:06,456 --> 01:19:10,376 but it will be a long, hard slog." 1358 01:19:25,493 --> 01:19:28,344 It was Christmastime. 1359 01:19:28,444 --> 01:19:34,250 I can recall going up to the secure phone closet. 1360 01:19:34,350 --> 01:19:36,219 It's in the second floor of our house, 1361 01:19:36,319 --> 01:19:39,222 not too far from my bedroom. 1362 01:19:39,322 --> 01:19:42,159 What was in there was a noise system 1363 01:19:42,259 --> 01:19:45,448 that sounded like an ocean wave. 1364 01:19:47,448 --> 01:19:50,901 They had scooped up some people, 1365 01:19:51,100 --> 01:19:53,503 low-level people, 1366 01:19:53,603 --> 01:19:57,840 who might have some reason to know where he might be. 1367 01:19:57,940 --> 01:20:00,210 He'd been moving around the country every day, 1368 01:20:00,310 --> 01:20:02,120 sleeping a different place, 1369 01:20:02,112 --> 01:20:05,147 moving around in taxicabs. 1370 01:20:05,247 --> 01:20:08,919 Also moving around were some body doubles, 1371 01:20:09,190 --> 01:20:12,289 people who looked exactly like Saddam Hussein, 1372 01:20:12,389 --> 01:20:16,125 indeed, had the same distinguishing marks 1373 01:20:16,225 --> 01:20:17,494 on their bodies. 1374 01:20:17,594 --> 01:20:20,996 Some low-level individual said that he believed 1375 01:20:21,960 --> 01:20:23,232 he knew where Saddam Hussein was. 1376 01:20:23,332 --> 01:20:27,560 They inspected this farm out in the middle of nowhere. 1377 01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:34,143 There was a trapdoor. 1378 01:20:34,243 --> 01:20:36,513 They opened this up. 1379 01:20:36,613 --> 01:20:41,170 Lo and behold, here was this bedraggled, bearded man 1380 01:20:41,117 --> 01:20:42,206 down in that hole. 1381 01:20:45,206 --> 01:20:50,492 Saddam Hussein clearly concluded it was all a bluff. 1382 01:20:50,592 --> 01:20:54,164 The United States was a paper tiger. 1383 01:20:54,264 --> 01:20:56,319 They weren't gonna do anything. 1384 01:20:59,319 --> 01:21:01,237 The first Gulf war left him feeling 1385 01:21:01,337 --> 01:21:03,173 that no one was gonna bother him. 1386 01:21:03,273 --> 01:21:05,875 He was the person who prevailed. 1387 01:21:05,975 --> 01:21:09,111 He obviously felt that he was a survivor. 1388 01:21:09,211 --> 01:21:12,482 And he was, for a while. 1389 01:21:12,582 --> 01:21:16,919 Someone said, "do you want to go see Saddam Hussein," 1390 01:21:17,190 --> 01:21:18,530 after he was captured. 1391 01:21:18,153 --> 01:21:19,889 And I said, "no." 1392 01:21:19,989 --> 01:21:23,547 I said, "I would like to talk to Tariq Aziz." 1393 01:21:27,547 --> 01:21:31,567 It's a complicated situation for me. 1394 01:21:31,667 --> 01:21:33,269 As the number two man, 1395 01:21:33,369 --> 01:21:35,237 simultaneously deputy prime minister 1396 01:21:35,337 --> 01:21:37,406 and foreign minister for Saddam Hussein, 1397 01:21:37,506 --> 01:21:39,276 and you meet with him, you come away 1398 01:21:39,376 --> 01:21:43,450 with that he is a perfectly rational, logical individual. 1399 01:21:43,145 --> 01:21:45,147 I've spent hours and hours with him. 1400 01:21:45,247 --> 01:21:48,218 You wonder what goes on in a mind like that. 1401 01:21:48,318 --> 01:21:51,860 I would love to talk to Tariq Aziz and figure out 1402 01:21:51,186 --> 01:21:52,656 what in the world they were thinking. 1403 01:21:52,756 --> 01:21:55,224 What else might the United States have done 1404 01:21:55,324 --> 01:21:56,593 to reach out to them 1405 01:21:56,693 --> 01:21:59,511 and get them to behave rationally. 1406 01:22:12,592 --> 01:22:15,344 On February 6, 2003, 1407 01:22:15,444 --> 01:22:17,947 to Jim Haynes. 1408 01:22:18,470 --> 01:22:19,648 "Subject: Detainees. 1409 01:22:19,748 --> 01:22:22,384 I am concerned that the detainee issues 1410 01:22:22,484 --> 01:22:25,600 we were wrestling with have not been resolved. 1411 01:22:26,600 --> 01:22:27,624 And as far as I can see... 1412 01:22:27,724 --> 01:22:31,594 ...it has just dropped into a black pit. 1413 01:22:31,694 --> 01:22:33,362 We have to get it figured out. Thanks." 1414 01:22:33,462 --> 01:22:35,165 "January 10, 2003. 1415 01:22:35,265 --> 01:22:36,265 Subject: Detainees. 1416 01:22:37,180 --> 01:22:38,335 I have simply got to know 1417 01:22:38,435 --> 01:22:40,202 when you folks are going to be prepared 1418 01:22:40,302 --> 01:22:42,604 to brief the White House on detainees. 1419 01:22:42,704 --> 01:22:45,642 In fact, I don't think I'll even do it that way. 1420 01:22:45,742 --> 01:22:49,111 Instead, let me just say, you should be prepared 1421 01:22:49,211 --> 01:22:50,312 to brief the White House..." 1422 01:22:50,412 --> 01:22:51,714 "Subject: The N.S.C." 1423 01:22:51,814 --> 01:22:53,983 "Or the principals committee on detainees, 1424 01:22:54,830 --> 01:22:57,219 including the most recent issue that has been raised, 1425 01:22:57,319 --> 01:22:59,321 no later than next Tuesday." 1426 01:22:59,421 --> 01:23:01,570 "January 14. 1427 01:23:01,157 --> 01:23:04,270 I want to get briefed on the Iraqi detainees fast. 1428 01:23:04,127 --> 01:23:05,394 I'm really worried about it. 1429 01:23:05,494 --> 01:23:08,494 Thanks." 1430 01:23:21,662 --> 01:23:23,580 When the pictures came, 1431 01:23:23,680 --> 01:23:26,616 it had an impact that was well beyond 1432 01:23:26,716 --> 01:23:29,219 anything that I'd experienced. 1433 01:23:29,319 --> 01:23:31,120 Why do you think the pictures did it? 1434 01:23:31,220 --> 01:23:35,250 What it showed was people engaging in acts of abuse 1435 01:23:35,125 --> 01:23:39,182 that were disgusting and revolting. 1436 01:23:42,182 --> 01:23:46,360 There were pictures showing that prison guards 1437 01:23:46,136 --> 01:23:47,771 in the midnight shift 1438 01:23:47,871 --> 01:23:50,706 were doing things to prisoners that didn't kill them, 1439 01:23:50,806 --> 01:23:54,744 that didn't create injuries that were permanent, 1440 01:23:54,844 --> 01:23:57,246 but they were engaging in sadistic things, 1441 01:23:57,346 --> 01:24:00,416 and there was nudity involved. 1442 01:24:00,516 --> 01:24:05,388 I knew that it would create a advantage for the terrorists, 1443 01:24:05,488 --> 01:24:08,900 for Al-Qaeda and for the people in the insurgency, 1444 01:24:08,190 --> 01:24:09,259 who were out recruiting. 1445 01:24:09,359 --> 01:24:10,727 They could show that the Americans 1446 01:24:10,827 --> 01:24:12,528 were treating people badly. 1447 01:24:12,628 --> 01:24:14,830 It worked against everything we were trying to do. 1448 01:24:14,930 --> 01:24:17,366 I walked in and said to the president, 1449 01:24:17,466 --> 01:24:19,635 "I'm the senior person, and I believe in accountability. 1450 01:24:19,735 --> 01:24:22,193 Here's my resignation." 1451 01:24:26,193 --> 01:24:27,544 It was in my handwriting. 1452 01:24:27,644 --> 01:24:28,844 I didn't want to dictate it 1453 01:24:28,944 --> 01:24:31,574 or have it typed up by somebody. 1454 01:24:41,574 --> 01:24:43,358 I felt a very strong sense 1455 01:24:43,458 --> 01:24:49,162 that something terrible had happened on my watch. 1456 01:25:02,162 --> 01:25:05,514 He said, "don, I recognize how you feel about this, 1457 01:25:05,614 --> 01:25:09,219 but that's not gonna solve the problem." 1458 01:25:09,319 --> 01:25:13,589 I testified before the house, testified before the senate, 1459 01:25:13,689 --> 01:25:18,661 tried to figure out how everything happened. 1460 01:25:18,761 --> 01:25:20,330 When a ship runs aground, 1461 01:25:20,430 --> 01:25:22,598 the captain of the ship's generally relieved. 1462 01:25:22,698 --> 01:25:24,400 You don't relieve your presidents, 1463 01:25:24,500 --> 01:25:26,568 and I couldn't find anyone that I thought 1464 01:25:26,668 --> 01:25:30,906 it would be fair and responsible to pin the tail on. 1465 01:25:31,600 --> 01:25:34,244 So I sat down and wrote a second letter of resignation, 1466 01:25:34,344 --> 01:25:36,545 and I still believe to this day 1467 01:25:36,645 --> 01:25:39,682 that I was correct and it would have been better, 1468 01:25:39,782 --> 01:25:42,285 better for the administration and the department of defense 1469 01:25:42,385 --> 01:25:43,753 and better for me, 1470 01:25:43,853 --> 01:25:45,455 if the department could have started fresh 1471 01:25:45,555 --> 01:25:48,625 with someone else in the leadership position. 1472 01:25:48,725 --> 01:25:50,326 So you wish it had been accepted? 1473 01:25:50,426 --> 01:25:51,426 Yes. 1474 01:26:12,733 --> 01:26:16,486 There's a claim that the interrogation rules 1475 01:26:16,586 --> 01:26:18,687 used in Guantanamo 1476 01:26:18,787 --> 01:26:21,900 migrated to Iraq, 1477 01:26:22,900 --> 01:26:27,930 where they led to incredible abuse. 1478 01:26:28,300 --> 01:26:29,831 The evidence is to the contrary. 1479 01:26:29,931 --> 01:26:31,401 There were 12 investigations 1480 01:26:31,501 --> 01:26:34,370 that looked at these issues, 1481 01:26:34,470 --> 01:26:35,804 some by civilians, 1482 01:26:35,904 --> 01:26:37,906 distinguished people like Dr. Harold brown 1483 01:26:38,600 --> 01:26:40,777 and Dr. James Schlesinger, former secretaries of defense, 1484 01:26:40,877 --> 01:26:42,644 others by military officials. 1485 01:26:42,744 --> 01:26:48,218 To suggest that the procedures from Guantanamo 1486 01:26:48,318 --> 01:26:51,787 migrated over to Iraq 1487 01:26:51,887 --> 01:26:56,858 is to suggest that the procedures in Guantanamo 1488 01:26:56,958 --> 01:26:58,661 would have encouraged the kind 1489 01:26:58,761 --> 01:27:03,465 of unbelievably bad, illegal, improper behavior 1490 01:27:03,565 --> 01:27:04,901 that took place at Abu Ghraib, 1491 01:27:05,100 --> 01:27:06,869 and there's nothing that would have permitted 1492 01:27:06,969 --> 01:27:08,370 anything like that. 1493 01:27:08,470 --> 01:27:10,572 Anyone who reads the investigative reports 1494 01:27:10,672 --> 01:27:13,430 knows that's not the case. 1495 01:27:16,430 --> 01:27:20,282 This is from the Schlesinger report. 1496 01:27:20,382 --> 01:27:23,786 "Changes in D.O.D. Interrogation policies 1497 01:27:23,886 --> 01:27:28,357 between December 2, 2002, and April 16, 2003, 1498 01:27:28,457 --> 01:27:32,461 were an element contributing to uncertainties in the field 1499 01:27:32,561 --> 01:27:36,266 as to which techniques were authorized. 1500 01:27:36,366 --> 01:27:39,369 Although specifically limited by the secretary of defense 1501 01:27:39,469 --> 01:27:43,272 to Guantanamo, and requiring his personal approval, 1502 01:27:43,372 --> 01:27:45,575 given in only two cases, 1503 01:27:45,675 --> 01:27:47,186 the augmented techniques for Guantanamo 1504 01:27:48,280 --> 01:27:50,450 migrated to Afghanistan and Iraq 1505 01:27:50,145 --> 01:27:54,817 where they were neither limited nor safeguarded." 1506 01:27:54,917 --> 01:27:56,317 Mm-hmm. 1507 01:27:56,418 --> 01:27:59,921 Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment. 1508 01:28:00,210 --> 01:28:01,421 Mm-hmm. 1509 01:28:06,680 --> 01:28:09,520 Are you saying stuff just happens? 1510 01:28:13,520 --> 01:28:16,652 Well, we know that 1511 01:28:17,105 --> 01:28:21,443 in every war there are things that evolve 1512 01:28:21,543 --> 01:28:25,447 that hadn't been planned for or fully anticipated 1513 01:28:25,547 --> 01:28:29,535 and that things occur which shouldn't occur. 1514 01:28:59,899 --> 01:29:05,354 Wouldn't it have been better not to go there at all? 1515 01:29:05,454 --> 01:29:07,650 Well, I guess time will tell. 1516 01:29:17,650 --> 01:29:21,870 Barack Obama opposed most of the structures 1517 01:29:21,970 --> 01:29:25,842 that president George W. Bush put in place: 1518 01:29:25,942 --> 01:29:30,379 Guantanamo bay, the concept of indefinite detention, 1519 01:29:30,479 --> 01:29:33,769 the patriot act, military commissions. 1520 01:29:35,769 --> 01:29:39,488 Here we are, years later, 1521 01:29:39,588 --> 01:29:41,711 and they're all still there. 1522 01:29:44,711 --> 01:29:48,598 I think that kind of has to validate, to some extent, 1523 01:29:48,698 --> 01:29:52,561 the decisions that were made by president George W. Bush. 1524 01:30:01,561 --> 01:30:05,113 We went to Bethesda and Walter Reed 1525 01:30:05,213 --> 01:30:08,170 a great many times. 1526 01:30:08,117 --> 01:30:11,920 The strength that you felt from the families 1527 01:30:12,200 --> 01:30:13,522 and the people wounded 1528 01:30:13,622 --> 01:30:18,494 was just absolutely an inspiration. 1529 01:30:18,594 --> 01:30:20,162 It was an intensive care unit. 1530 01:30:20,262 --> 01:30:22,886 The doctor said, "this guy's not gonna make it." 1531 01:30:25,886 --> 01:30:29,171 We walked in, met the man, talked to him, 1532 01:30:29,271 --> 01:30:31,290 talked to the family. 1533 01:30:37,290 --> 01:30:40,683 I don't know what the word is. 1534 01:30:40,783 --> 01:30:43,986 But the family... the wife said, 1535 01:30:44,860 --> 01:30:46,813 "I know he'll make it." 1536 01:30:52,813 --> 01:30:56,165 I think it was probably two, three, four weeks later 1537 01:30:56,265 --> 01:30:57,866 I went back, and sure as heck, 1538 01:30:57,966 --> 01:30:59,568 the doctor said he made it. 1539 01:30:59,668 --> 01:31:01,693 Unbelievable. 1540 01:31:06,693 --> 01:31:08,210 So we're a very fortunate country, 1541 01:31:08,310 --> 01:31:10,146 and the good lord willing, 1542 01:31:10,246 --> 01:31:14,483 we won't have to be engaged in wars, 1543 01:31:14,583 --> 01:31:16,885 but I'm afraid, human nature being what it is, 1544 01:31:16,985 --> 01:31:20,700 that we'll have to continue to ask young men and women 1545 01:31:21,700 --> 01:31:23,659 to come and serve our country, 1546 01:31:23,759 --> 01:31:26,178 and their lives will be at risk. 1547 01:31:48,234 --> 01:31:52,153 When you're in a position like secretary of defense, 1548 01:31:52,253 --> 01:31:55,625 do you feel that you actually are in control of history 1549 01:31:55,725 --> 01:31:59,682 or that history is controlling you? 1550 01:32:02,682 --> 01:32:05,820 Oh, neither. 1551 01:32:05,333 --> 01:32:07,769 Obviously, you don't control history, 1552 01:32:07,869 --> 01:32:12,292 and you are failing if history controls you. 1553 01:32:27,673 --> 01:32:29,325 Are you surprised when you go back 1554 01:32:29,425 --> 01:32:31,326 and read these memos? 1555 01:32:31,426 --> 01:32:33,620 Oh, my goodness, yes. 1556 01:32:33,162 --> 01:32:37,833 I can't believe some of the things I wrote. 1557 01:32:37,933 --> 01:32:40,694 I don't know where all those words came from. 1558 01:32:47,694 --> 01:32:52,349 "February 4, 2004. 1559 01:32:52,449 --> 01:32:57,577 Subject: What you know. 1560 01:32:57,677 --> 01:32:59,120 There are knowns knowns. 1561 01:32:59,220 --> 01:33:02,290 There are known unknowns. 1562 01:33:02,390 --> 01:33:06,195 There are unknown unknowns. 1563 01:33:06,295 --> 01:33:11,200 But there are also unknown knowns. 1564 01:33:11,300 --> 01:33:15,370 That is to say, things that you think you know 1565 01:33:15,470 --> 01:33:18,694 that it turns out you did not." 1566 01:33:20,694 --> 01:33:22,344 If you take those words 1567 01:33:22,444 --> 01:33:26,869 and try to connect them in each way that is possible... 1568 01:33:29,869 --> 01:33:32,287 There was at least one more combination 1569 01:33:32,387 --> 01:33:33,789 that wasn't there: 1570 01:33:33,889 --> 01:33:38,841 The unknown knowns. 1571 01:33:38,941 --> 01:33:41,696 Things that you possibly may know 1572 01:33:41,796 --> 01:33:44,000 that you don't know you know. 1573 01:33:44,100 --> 01:33:46,369 But the memo doesn't say that. 1574 01:33:46,469 --> 01:33:51,807 It says we know less, not more, than we think we do. 1575 01:33:51,907 --> 01:33:53,241 Is that right? I reversed it? 1576 01:33:53,341 --> 01:33:55,198 Put it up again. Let me see. 1577 01:33:58,198 --> 01:34:02,250 "There are also unknown knowns. 1578 01:34:02,350 --> 01:34:06,856 That is to say, things that you think you know 1579 01:34:06,956 --> 01:34:09,258 that it turns out you did not." 1580 01:34:09,358 --> 01:34:11,994 Yeah, I think that memo is backwards. 1581 01:34:12,940 --> 01:34:18,320 I think that it's closer to what I said here than that. 1582 01:34:21,320 --> 01:34:23,600 Unknown knowns. 1583 01:34:28,600 --> 01:34:31,730 I think you're probably, Errol, chasing the wrong rabbit here. 1584 01:34:56,922 --> 01:34:59,308 As ubiquitous as those suicide bombers 1585 01:34:59,408 --> 01:35:03,144 have become in Iraq, far more people are now being killed 1586 01:35:03,244 --> 01:35:05,313 by executions than by those bombings. 1587 01:35:05,413 --> 01:35:07,316 Another 40 bodies today dumped 1588 01:35:07,416 --> 01:35:09,117 on the streets of Baghdad, tortured. 1589 01:35:09,217 --> 01:35:11,320 But with an especially deadly October 1590 01:35:11,420 --> 01:35:13,540 and Iraq tipping toward chaos... 1591 01:35:13,154 --> 01:35:16,291 the U.S. is on the brink of failure in Iraq. 1592 01:35:16,391 --> 01:35:19,728 A parade of generals called Rumsfeld’s war strategy flawed. 1593 01:35:19,828 --> 01:35:22,363 The democrats are in; Donald Rumsfeld is out. 1594 01:35:22,463 --> 01:35:25,101 Firing secretary of defense Donald Rumsfeld 1595 01:35:25,201 --> 01:35:28,614 and replacing him with a veteran of his father's administration. 1596 01:35:31,447 --> 01:35:34,175 Mr. President, thank you for your kind words. 1597 01:35:34,684 --> 01:35:38,813 The great respect that I have for your leadership 1598 01:35:38,974 --> 01:35:44,320 in this little-understood, unfamiliar war, 1599 01:35:44,420 --> 01:35:47,229 the first war of the 21st century. 1600 01:35:49,333 --> 01:35:50,526 It is not well known. 1601 01:35:50,626 --> 01:35:52,260 It was not well understood. 1602 01:35:52,360 --> 01:35:55,829 It is complex for people to comprehend. 1603 01:35:56,110 --> 01:35:58,467 And I know with certainty that, over time, 1604 01:35:58,567 --> 01:36:04,125 the contributions you've made will be recorded by history. 1605 01:36:08,394 --> 01:36:09,567 Thank you. 1606 01:36:10,546 --> 01:36:11,546 Mr. secretary. 1607 01:36:14,501 --> 01:36:16,350 This way. 1608 01:36:27,790 --> 01:36:30,125 "December 15, 2006. 1609 01:36:30,399 --> 01:36:32,340 To: Pentagon personnel. 1610 01:36:32,134 --> 01:36:34,710 From: Donald Rumsfeld. 1611 01:36:34,435 --> 01:36:37,187 Subject: 'Snowflakes... 1612 01:36:38,600 --> 01:36:40,465 the blizzard is over.' 1613 01:36:44,864 --> 01:36:46,353 over the past six years, 1614 01:36:46,454 --> 01:36:49,793 thousands of these memos have fallen, 1615 01:36:51,153 --> 01:36:52,848 sometimes in blizzards, 1616 01:36:53,500 --> 01:36:56,110 and sometimes in cold and lonely isolation. 1617 01:36:58,453 --> 01:37:00,562 Yet, as surprising as this may seem 1618 01:37:00,662 --> 01:37:04,462 to those who may have been buried in the deluge, 1619 01:37:05,818 --> 01:37:07,861 there are many people in the department 1620 01:37:08,200 --> 01:37:11,580 who have never received a snowflake. 1621 01:37:11,746 --> 01:37:14,478 This snowflake is especially for them. 1622 01:37:16,360 --> 01:37:19,147 Its message is, perhaps typically, to the point. 1623 01:37:19,247 --> 01:37:20,791 Thank you. 1624 01:37:22,733 --> 01:37:24,797 The blizzard is over." 1625 01:37:45,901 --> 01:37:47,695 One last question. 1626 01:37:49,695 --> 01:37:51,890 Why are you doing this? 1627 01:37:52,146 --> 01:37:54,500 Why are you talking to me? 1628 01:37:55,684 --> 01:37:57,758 That is a vicious question. 1629 01:38:00,368 --> 01:38:02,000 I'll be darned if I know. 121863

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