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Let me put up this next memo.
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You want me to read this?
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Yes, please.
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"February 4, 2004.
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Subject: What you know.
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There are known knowns.
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There are known unknowns.
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There are unknown unknowns.
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But there are also
unknown knowns.
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That is to say,
things that you think you know
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that it turns out
you did not."
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I wonder if in the future
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public figures will write
as many memos as I did.
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I doubt it.
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I must have gotten
in the habit of dictating
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things that were important.
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Not a diary.
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Not a journal.
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They're almost all
working documents.
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Now, they've become historical
documents in retrospect,
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00:03:33,861 --> 00:03:37,109
but at the time,
they all had a purpose.
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00:03:37,331 --> 00:03:40,902
In the later years
of my using the dictaphone,
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why, they were called
snowflakes,
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because they were
on white paper.
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What would you say
the total number of memos
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00:03:48,443 --> 00:03:49,573
might be?
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They said I dictated 20,000
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just in the last six years
at the Pentagon.
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There have to be millions.
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00:04:02,741 --> 00:04:05,892
"July 27, 2001."
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A memo to Condoleezza Rice
concerning Iraq.
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00:04:10,965 --> 00:04:15,300
"We have discussed Iraq
on a number of occasions.
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The discussions
have been inconclusive.
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Sanctions are being limited
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in a way that cannot weaken
Saddam Hussein.
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We can publicly acknowledge
that the sanctions don't work
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over extended periods
and stop the pretense
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00:04:31,519 --> 00:04:33,600
of having a policy
that is keeping Saddam
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'in the box'
when we know he has crawled
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a good distance out of the box.
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00:04:40,995 --> 00:04:42,497
Within a few years,
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the U.S. will undoubtedly
have to confront
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00:04:44,278 --> 00:04:48,959
a Saddam armed
with nuclear weapons.
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00:04:54,959 --> 00:04:57,412
If Saddam's regime
were oustered,
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we would have
a much-improved position
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in the region
and elsewhere."
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Why the obsession
with Iraq and Saddam?
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00:05:17,431 --> 00:05:19,667
Well, you love that word,
"obsession."
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I can see the glow
in your face when you say it.
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Well, I'm an obsessive person.
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Are you? I'm not.
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I'm...
I'm cool.
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I'm measured.
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00:05:28,909 --> 00:05:31,746
If you look
at the range of my memos,
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there might be 1/10 of 1%
about Iraq.
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00:05:35,715 --> 00:05:37,417
The reason I was concerned
about Iraq
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is 'cause four-star generals
would come to me and say,
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"Mr. secretary,
we have a problem.
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00:05:44,459 --> 00:05:47,427
Our orders are to fly over
the northern part of Iraq
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00:05:47,527 --> 00:05:49,997
and the Southern part of Iraq
on a daily basis,
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00:05:50,970 --> 00:05:53,568
with the Brits,
and we are getting shot at.
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00:05:53,668 --> 00:05:55,903
At some moment...
could be tomorrow,
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00:05:56,300 --> 00:05:58,400
could be next month,
could be next year...
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00:05:58,104 --> 00:06:00,740
one of our planes
is gonna be shot down
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00:06:00,174 --> 00:06:03,778
and our pilots and crews
are gonna be killed
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00:06:03,878 --> 00:06:05,780
or they're gonna be
captured."
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00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:07,448
The question will be,
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00:06:07,548 --> 00:06:10,651
"what in the world were
we flying those flights for?
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00:06:10,751 --> 00:06:12,787
What was
the cost-benefit ratio?
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00:06:12,887 --> 00:06:14,821
What was our country gaining?"
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00:06:14,921 --> 00:06:16,157
So you sit down and you say,
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00:06:16,257 --> 00:06:17,759
"I think I'm gonna see
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if I can get
the president's attention.
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00:06:19,659 --> 00:06:21,862
Remind him that our planes
are being shot at,
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00:06:21,962 --> 00:06:25,980
remind him that we don't have
a fresh policy for Iraq,
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00:06:25,198 --> 00:06:30,400
and remind him that we've got
a whole range of options."
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Not an obsession.
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00:06:31,505 --> 00:06:36,477
A very measured,
nuanced approach,
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I think.
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In my confirmation hearing
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00:06:45,919 --> 00:06:50,570
when I was nominated
to be secretary of defense,
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00:06:50,157 --> 00:06:52,110
the best question
I was asked was,
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"what do you worry about
when you go to bed at night?"
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00:06:56,931 --> 00:06:59,466
And my answer was, in effect,
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"intelligence.
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00:07:00,801 --> 00:07:02,670
The danger
that we can be surprised
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00:07:02,770 --> 00:07:04,872
because of
a failure of imagining
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00:07:04,972 --> 00:07:06,862
what might happen
in the world."
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00:07:09,862 --> 00:07:14,848
There are known knowns,
the things we know we know.
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00:07:14,948 --> 00:07:16,184
There are known unknowns,
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00:07:16,284 --> 00:07:20,210
the things we know
we don't know.
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00:07:20,121 --> 00:07:21,472
There are also
that third category
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of unknown unknowns,
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the things we don't know
we don't know.
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00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,163
And you can only know more
about those things
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00:07:29,263 --> 00:07:32,987
by imagining what they might be.
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Pearl harbor was
a failure of imagination.
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We didn't know we didn't know
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00:07:44,210 --> 00:07:47,803
that they could do what they
did the way they did it.
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00:07:51,803 --> 00:07:55,122
We had people working
on breaking codes.
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00:07:55,222 --> 00:07:57,230
We had people thinking through,
102
00:07:57,123 --> 00:07:59,980
"what are the kinds of things
they might do?"
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00:08:01,980 --> 00:08:04,160
And lo and behold,
the carriers were able to,
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00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,903
on a Sunday morning,
get very close to Hawaii,
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00:08:09,300 --> 00:08:13,994
launch their planes, and
impose enormous destruction.
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00:08:28,973 --> 00:08:31,225
Was it failure of imagination
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00:08:31,325 --> 00:08:35,290
or failure to look
at the intelligence
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that was available?
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00:08:38,265 --> 00:08:39,599
They had thought through
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00:08:39,699 --> 00:08:43,603
a great many
more obvious possibilities.
111
00:08:43,703 --> 00:08:47,942
People were chasing
the wrong rabbit.
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00:08:48,420 --> 00:08:51,312
That one possibility
was not something
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00:08:51,412 --> 00:08:55,270
that they had imagined
was likely.
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"July 23, 2001.
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00:09:03,650 --> 00:09:08,728
Subject:
'Pearl harbor post-mortem.'
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00:09:08,828 --> 00:09:11,640
in some future hearing,
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I am going to say
that I do not want
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00:09:13,833 --> 00:09:17,737
to be sitting before this panel
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00:09:17,837 --> 00:09:22,676
in a modern-day version
of a pearl harbor post-mortem:
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00:09:22,776 --> 00:09:27,915
Who didn't do what,
when, where, and why.
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00:09:28,150 --> 00:09:31,819
None of us would want
to have to be back here
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00:09:31,919 --> 00:09:35,222
going through that agony."
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00:09:35,322 --> 00:09:39,894
A month or so before
September 11, 2001,
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00:09:39,994 --> 00:09:44,131
it would be wrong to think
that someone who wrote it...
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namely me, was prescient.
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00:09:46,332 --> 00:09:47,334
I wasn't.
127
00:09:47,434 --> 00:09:49,904
I simply had read enough history
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00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:51,792
that I worried.
129
00:09:53,792 --> 00:09:55,175
American 11, climb,
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00:09:55,275 --> 00:09:58,945
maintain flight level 350.
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American 11, climb,
maintain flight level 350.
132
00:10:04,436 --> 00:10:06,341
American 11, Boston.
133
00:10:09,341 --> 00:10:11,679
The American on the frequency,
how do you hear me?
134
00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:16,229
American 11,
if you hear Boston center
135
00:10:16,329 --> 00:10:19,400
re-contact Boston center
on 127.82.
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00:10:19,500 --> 00:10:22,291
That's American 11, 127.82.
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00:10:26,291 --> 00:10:27,742
My military assistant,
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00:10:27,842 --> 00:10:30,377
admiral Ed Giambastiani,
came in and said,
139
00:10:30,477 --> 00:10:33,381
"a plane has hit
the world trade center."
140
00:10:33,481 --> 00:10:36,250
It was assumed
to be an accident.
141
00:10:36,350 --> 00:10:39,319
And I went into my office
from the conference room,
142
00:10:39,419 --> 00:10:41,440
and admiral Giambastiani said,
"another plane has hit
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00:10:41,540 --> 00:10:43,240
the other world
trade center tower."
144
00:10:43,124 --> 00:10:44,391
And of course, at that point,
145
00:10:44,491 --> 00:10:46,260
it wasn't an accident;
It was an attack.
146
00:10:46,126 --> 00:10:50,751
Within minutes,
I felt the Pentagon shake.
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00:10:53,751 --> 00:10:57,388
That's how our day began
on September 11th.
148
00:11:05,130 --> 00:11:08,716
They had hit the center
of economic power in New York,
149
00:11:08,816 --> 00:11:12,850
and they then had hit
the center of military power
150
00:11:12,185 --> 00:11:13,286
at the Pentagon.
151
00:11:13,386 --> 00:11:15,189
You need to find out
what had happened.
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00:11:15,289 --> 00:11:16,824
What was it?
153
00:11:16,924 --> 00:11:19,392
I got up and
went down the hall, and...
154
00:11:19,492 --> 00:11:21,695
on my floor,
until the smoke was so bad
155
00:11:21,795 --> 00:11:23,229
I had to get outside.
156
00:11:23,329 --> 00:11:26,000
Then I went downstairs and
outside and around the corner,
157
00:11:26,100 --> 00:11:29,690
and here were pieces of
that American airlines airplane
158
00:11:29,169 --> 00:11:32,493
just spread all over the apron,
all over the grass.
159
00:11:34,493 --> 00:11:36,776
Flames and smoke,
160
00:11:36,876 --> 00:11:38,846
people being brought out
of the building
161
00:11:38,946 --> 00:11:42,680
who were injured
and burned and wounded.
162
00:11:44,680 --> 00:11:46,319
The first responders
really hadn't arrived yet.
163
00:11:46,419 --> 00:11:48,147
There were
very few people there.
164
00:11:55,147 --> 00:11:58,165
How do you think
that they got away with 9/11?
165
00:11:58,265 --> 00:12:01,121
It seems amazing in retrospect.
166
00:12:04,121 --> 00:12:07,440
Everything seems amazing
in retrospect.
167
00:12:07,540 --> 00:12:10,465
Pearl harbor seems amazing
in retrospect.
168
00:12:13,465 --> 00:12:16,139
It's a failure of imagination.
169
00:12:22,139 --> 00:12:28,940
It's not as though you aren't
aware of possibilities,
170
00:12:28,194 --> 00:12:31,531
but you tend to favor
some possibilities
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00:12:31,631 --> 00:12:33,321
more than others.
172
00:12:36,321 --> 00:12:39,272
And it's enormously important
to have priorities.
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00:12:39,372 --> 00:12:40,540
What are you gonna worry about?
174
00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,800
What is it you want to do?
175
00:12:42,108 --> 00:12:43,409
What are you gonna
be prepared for?
176
00:12:43,509 --> 00:12:44,944
And you have to pick and choose.
177
00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:46,546
Well, to the extent
you pick and choose
178
00:12:46,646 --> 00:12:48,231
and you're wrong...
179
00:12:51,100 --> 00:12:53,275
...the penalty can be enormous.
180
00:12:58,275 --> 00:13:03,672
"September 30, 2001."
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00:13:03,772 --> 00:13:07,321
Memorandum.
Title: "Strategic thoughts."
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00:13:09,321 --> 00:13:13,600
"The U.S. strategic theme
should be aiding local peoples
183
00:13:13,106 --> 00:13:15,141
to rid themselves of terrorists
184
00:13:15,241 --> 00:13:17,277
and to free themselves
of regimes
185
00:13:17,377 --> 00:13:21,448
that support terrorism.
186
00:13:21,548 --> 00:13:25,819
The regimes of such states
should see that it will be fatal
187
00:13:25,919 --> 00:13:29,410
to host terrorists
who attack the United States.
188
00:13:33,410 --> 00:13:36,300
The United States government
should envision
189
00:13:36,130 --> 00:13:38,299
a goal along these lines.
190
00:13:38,399 --> 00:13:43,270
New regimes in Afghanistan
and another key state or two
191
00:13:43,370 --> 00:13:46,240
that supports terrorism.
192
00:13:46,340 --> 00:13:48,442
Syria out of Lebanon.
193
00:13:48,542 --> 00:13:50,310
Dismantlement or destruction
194
00:13:50,410 --> 00:13:53,902
of weapons of mass destruction
capabilities.
195
00:13:56,902 --> 00:13:59,219
If the war does not
significantly change
196
00:13:59,319 --> 00:14:01,121
the world's political map,
197
00:14:01,221 --> 00:14:04,511
the U.S. will not
achieve its aim."
198
00:14:15,654 --> 00:14:18,405
On my orders,
the United States military
199
00:14:18,505 --> 00:14:19,505
has begun strikes
200
00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,642
against Al-Qaeda
terrorist training camps
201
00:14:22,742 --> 00:14:24,210
and military installations
202
00:14:24,310 --> 00:14:26,566
of the Taliban regime
in Afghanistan.
203
00:14:43,414 --> 00:14:46,266
In relatively short order,
a matter of weeks,
204
00:14:46,366 --> 00:14:47,534
Kabul was occupied,
205
00:14:47,634 --> 00:14:49,136
the Taliban was defeated
206
00:14:49,236 --> 00:14:52,171
and run out of the country
in large measure,
207
00:14:52,271 --> 00:14:54,659
and a lot of Al-Qaeda
were killed.
208
00:14:55,659 --> 00:15:00,347
Osama Bin Laden escaped
into Pakistan eventually.
209
00:15:00,447 --> 00:15:03,416
The target of the
largest manhunt in history
210
00:15:03,516 --> 00:15:04,984
still eludes capture.
211
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:06,587
Cave by cave, for any sign
212
00:15:06,687 --> 00:15:08,380
of Osama Bin Laden,
dead or alive.
213
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:11,992
The high probability that
Osama Bin Laden is still alive.
214
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:14,270
With Afghanistan's
porous borders,
215
00:15:14,127 --> 00:15:16,362
it's possible Bin Laden
has already slipped
216
00:15:16,462 --> 00:15:17,462
out of the country.
217
00:15:23,388 --> 00:15:29,108
Osama gets away,
and a confusion sets in.
218
00:15:29,208 --> 00:15:34,515
People began to think
that Saddam was connected
219
00:15:34,615 --> 00:15:39,218
with Al-Qaeda and with 9/11.
220
00:15:39,318 --> 00:15:40,318
Oh, I don't think so.
221
00:15:41,500 --> 00:15:44,992
It was very clear that
the direct planning for 9/11
222
00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:47,660
was done by
Osama Bin Laden's people,
223
00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,497
Al-Qaeda,
and in Afghanistan.
224
00:15:51,597 --> 00:15:53,320
I don't think
the American people
225
00:15:53,132 --> 00:15:55,202
were confused about that.
226
00:15:55,302 --> 00:15:59,673
In 2003,
in a Washington Post poll,
227
00:15:59,773 --> 00:16:02,108
69% said they believe
it is likely
228
00:16:02,208 --> 00:16:04,511
the Iraqi leader
was personally involved
229
00:16:04,611 --> 00:16:07,714
in the attacks
carried out by Al-Qaeda.
230
00:16:07,814 --> 00:16:11,385
I don't remember anyone
in the bush administration
231
00:16:11,485 --> 00:16:13,353
saying anything like that,
232
00:16:13,453 --> 00:16:16,689
nor do I recall
anyone believing that.
233
00:16:16,789 --> 00:16:19,930
Mr. secretary, today
in a broadcast interview was...
234
00:16:19,193 --> 00:16:22,596
Saddam Hussein said,
"there is only one truth.
235
00:16:22,696 --> 00:16:26,232
Iraq has no weapons
of mass destruction whatsoever."
236
00:16:26,332 --> 00:16:27,401
And he went on to say,
237
00:16:27,501 --> 00:16:29,200
"I would like to tell you
directly
238
00:16:29,102 --> 00:16:31,704
we have no relationship
with Al-Qaeda."
239
00:16:31,804 --> 00:16:34,624
And Abraham Lincoln was short.
240
00:16:36,693 --> 00:16:38,245
Would you care
to respond directly
241
00:16:38,345 --> 00:16:41,403
to what Saddam Hussein
has said today?
242
00:16:45,403 --> 00:16:46,403
I...
243
00:16:47,554 --> 00:16:50,223
how does one respond to that?
244
00:16:50,323 --> 00:16:53,227
It's just a continuous pattern.
245
00:16:53,327 --> 00:16:57,970
This is a case of the local liar
coming up again
246
00:16:57,197 --> 00:16:58,431
and people repeating
what he said
247
00:16:58,531 --> 00:17:00,767
and forgetting to say
that he never...
248
00:17:00,867 --> 00:17:05,154
almost never...
rarely tells the truth.
249
00:17:14,598 --> 00:17:16,749
There are two sides to the coin.
250
00:17:16,849 --> 00:17:19,592
One is,
251
00:17:19,692 --> 00:17:22,555
"belief in the inevitability
of conflict
252
00:17:22,655 --> 00:17:27,326
can become one
of its main causes."
253
00:17:27,426 --> 00:17:31,794
That is a truth.
254
00:17:31,894 --> 00:17:34,735
The other side of the coin,
which is also true, is,
255
00:17:34,835 --> 00:17:38,125
"if you wish for peace,
prepare for war."
256
00:17:41,125 --> 00:17:42,476
But if both were true,
257
00:17:42,576 --> 00:17:46,647
well, you can use that
to justify anything.
258
00:17:46,747 --> 00:17:49,749
There's a similar thing
in Rumsfeld’s rules
259
00:17:49,849 --> 00:17:52,119
where I say,
260
00:17:52,219 --> 00:17:56,390
"all generalizations are false,
261
00:17:56,490 --> 00:18:00,360
including this one."
262
00:18:00,460 --> 00:18:02,860
There it is.
263
00:18:05,650 --> 00:18:07,868
The president did
harden his stand towards...
264
00:18:07,968 --> 00:18:10,603
the United States
is on the road to war.
265
00:18:10,703 --> 00:18:12,538
Administration
officials say the effort
266
00:18:12,638 --> 00:18:14,708
to pressure Iraq has moved
into a final phase.
267
00:18:14,808 --> 00:18:16,877
All the military pieces
should be in place
268
00:18:16,977 --> 00:18:18,170
to go to war with Iraq.
269
00:18:25,170 --> 00:18:27,787
On January 11, 2003,
270
00:18:27,887 --> 00:18:30,390
the vice president's office
called
271
00:18:30,490 --> 00:18:32,758
and requested that I come over
to meet with him
272
00:18:32,858 --> 00:18:37,797
and the Saudi ambassador,
prince Bandar.
273
00:18:37,897 --> 00:18:39,499
It was unusual.
I mean, I...
274
00:18:39,599 --> 00:18:42,436
I wasn't often
in the vice president's office.
275
00:18:42,536 --> 00:18:43,570
We sat down.
276
00:18:43,670 --> 00:18:47,673
Dick proceeded to tell Bandar
277
00:18:47,773 --> 00:18:51,879
that the president
was going to invade Iraq
278
00:18:51,979 --> 00:18:54,381
and change the regime in Iraq.
279
00:18:54,481 --> 00:18:57,784
That was the first time
that I'd heard anything
280
00:18:57,884 --> 00:19:00,219
that sounded truly definitive.
281
00:19:00,319 --> 00:19:03,689
What was the Saudi
ambassador's reaction to this?
282
00:19:03,789 --> 00:19:06,927
He wanted reassurance
that when it was all over,
283
00:19:07,270 --> 00:19:09,162
Saddam Hussein would be gone.
284
00:19:09,262 --> 00:19:11,797
They needed to know
that the president was serious.
285
00:19:11,897 --> 00:19:13,432
That is why, I'm sure,
286
00:19:13,532 --> 00:19:16,737
the vice president said it
the way he said it.
287
00:19:16,837 --> 00:19:19,172
Is it at all strange
that you would hear about it
288
00:19:19,272 --> 00:19:20,774
in this way?
289
00:19:20,874 --> 00:19:21,874
No.
290
00:19:23,994 --> 00:19:26,266
No, I don't think so.
291
00:19:28,266 --> 00:19:32,718
If the purpose of the war
is to get rid of Saddam Hussein,
292
00:19:32,818 --> 00:19:34,249
why can't they just
assassinate him?
293
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,292
Why do you have
to invade his country?
294
00:19:38,392 --> 00:19:39,493
Who's "they?"
295
00:19:39,593 --> 00:19:40,593
Us.
296
00:19:41,110 --> 00:19:42,329
You said, "they."
297
00:19:42,429 --> 00:19:43,529
You didn't say, "we."
298
00:19:43,629 --> 00:19:44,730
Well, "we."
299
00:19:44,830 --> 00:19:45,830
I will rephrase it.
300
00:19:46,170 --> 00:19:47,570
Why do we have to do that?
301
00:19:48,190 --> 00:19:52,992
We don't assassinate
leaders of other countries.
302
00:19:54,992 --> 00:19:58,277
Well, Dora Farms,
we were doing our best.
303
00:19:58,377 --> 00:20:01,370
That was an act of war.
304
00:20:06,370 --> 00:20:07,387
The beginning of the war,
305
00:20:07,487 --> 00:20:10,457
even before it started,
306
00:20:10,557 --> 00:20:13,427
George Tenet came to see me
in my office at the Pentagon.
307
00:20:13,527 --> 00:20:16,596
He said, "we think we know
where Saddam Hussein is."
308
00:20:16,696 --> 00:20:18,599
I said, "terrific,"
and I called the White House
309
00:20:18,699 --> 00:20:20,667
and said to the president,
"we're coming over."
310
00:20:20,767 --> 00:20:22,958
We met in his office.
311
00:20:26,958 --> 00:20:28,641
George Tenet would go
from the oval office
312
00:20:28,741 --> 00:20:31,711
in to a side office
and talk to the people
313
00:20:31,811 --> 00:20:33,814
in the central
intelligence agency
314
00:20:33,914 --> 00:20:38,884
who were talking to the agents
on the ground in Iraq.
315
00:20:38,984 --> 00:20:40,387
The word came back
316
00:20:40,487 --> 00:20:43,323
that somebody had identified
Saddam Hussein
317
00:20:43,423 --> 00:20:45,877
as being at Dora Farms.
318
00:20:46,877 --> 00:20:51,597
George Tenet was convinced
that his people on the ground
319
00:20:51,697 --> 00:20:53,366
were giving him
the straight dope.
320
00:20:53,466 --> 00:20:55,850
They were certain he was there.
321
00:21:00,391 --> 00:21:02,270
We'd put on alert aircraft.
322
00:21:03,270 --> 00:21:08,569
The aircraft took off
and went to that location.
323
00:21:12,569 --> 00:21:15,354
The president
went around the room asking,
324
00:21:15,454 --> 00:21:17,524
"should we do this
or not?"
325
00:21:17,624 --> 00:21:18,922
Everyone in the room,
as I recall,
326
00:21:19,220 --> 00:21:21,928
agreed it was
sufficiently solid intelligence,
327
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:23,397
sufficient to do it.
328
00:21:23,497 --> 00:21:24,797
We just were so hopeful
329
00:21:24,897 --> 00:21:26,733
that by killing Saddam Hussein,
330
00:21:26,833 --> 00:21:30,937
we could end the need for a war,
331
00:21:31,370 --> 00:21:34,130
that in fact, by that act,
you would change the regime.
332
00:21:39,130 --> 00:21:42,865
The planes went in,
and they struck the farm...
333
00:21:46,104 --> 00:21:48,400
...killed some people.
334
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,459
They came out
with a stretcher with a body.
335
00:21:53,559 --> 00:21:56,429
People there
on the ground asserted
336
00:21:56,529 --> 00:21:58,332
that it was Saddam Hussein.
337
00:21:58,432 --> 00:22:01,468
They think they killed him.
338
00:22:01,568 --> 00:22:05,122
And it turned out, it was not.
339
00:22:09,626 --> 00:22:11,644
What a wonderful
thing it would have been
340
00:22:11,744 --> 00:22:14,680
if he could have been killed.
341
00:22:14,780 --> 00:22:18,384
The war would have been avoided.
342
00:22:18,484 --> 00:22:19,619
It's possible.
343
00:22:19,719 --> 00:22:21,870
May not have been,
344
00:22:21,187 --> 00:22:22,775
but it's possible.
345
00:22:34,652 --> 00:22:37,704
You wonder why
they didn't respond
346
00:22:37,804 --> 00:22:39,639
to all the efforts
that were made
347
00:22:39,739 --> 00:22:44,515
to avoid that war.
348
00:22:44,615 --> 00:22:45,946
How could they be that mixed up
349
00:22:46,460 --> 00:22:49,969
in what the inevitable
next steps would be?
350
00:22:51,969 --> 00:22:53,786
Why they wouldn't sit down
351
00:22:53,886 --> 00:22:57,556
and have
an agonizing reappraisal,
352
00:22:57,656 --> 00:23:01,444
and it come to some
logical conclusion?
353
00:23:27,238 --> 00:23:29,189
I was elected to congress.
354
00:23:29,289 --> 00:23:31,240
I was 30 years old.
355
00:23:31,124 --> 00:23:35,629
It was during the Vietnam war
and the civil rights era.
356
00:23:35,729 --> 00:23:39,466
There were big issues before us.
357
00:23:39,566 --> 00:23:41,500
I would come back sometimes
358
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,204
knowing I didn't know
if I voted right,
359
00:23:44,304 --> 00:23:46,872
that there are arguments here
and there were arguments there.
360
00:23:46,972 --> 00:23:49,442
"Ugh, I hope I voted
the right way.
361
00:23:49,542 --> 00:23:50,542
Why did I do what I did?"
362
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,714
And I'd sit down
and dictate that.
363
00:23:54,814 --> 00:23:56,850
After almost every vote,
every amendment,
364
00:23:56,950 --> 00:24:01,153
I would go back
with my little dictaphone.
365
00:24:01,253 --> 00:24:03,722
I would dictate a note and say,
366
00:24:03,822 --> 00:24:04,990
"here was the vote.
367
00:24:05,900 --> 00:24:06,826
The ayes were this.
The nays were that.
368
00:24:06,926 --> 00:24:08,795
Here were the amendments,
and here's what I did
369
00:24:08,895 --> 00:24:11,131
and why I did it."
370
00:24:11,231 --> 00:24:14,133
And then when I went
in the executive branch,
371
00:24:14,233 --> 00:24:18,710
I would want to clarify
my own thinking,
372
00:24:18,171 --> 00:24:20,162
so I would try to put it down
on paper and edit it,
373
00:24:21,250 --> 00:24:23,209
and I'd go through
three, four, five drafts,
374
00:24:23,309 --> 00:24:25,478
getting it the way
I really wanted it.
375
00:24:25,578 --> 00:24:28,715
I would do it
for communications to my staff.
376
00:24:28,815 --> 00:24:31,785
I wanted them to know
what I was thinking.
377
00:24:31,885 --> 00:24:34,254
Did you imagine
that they would produce
378
00:24:34,354 --> 00:24:35,822
this vast archive?
379
00:24:35,922 --> 00:24:37,189
Oh, it never crossed my mind.
380
00:24:37,289 --> 00:24:39,593
I never knew
what I was gonna do next.
381
00:24:39,693 --> 00:24:41,764
The only thing I've ever
volunteered for in my life...
382
00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:43,763
one was to go in the Navy,
383
00:24:43,863 --> 00:24:46,866
and the other was
to run for congress.
384
00:24:46,966 --> 00:24:48,718
The other was to get married.
385
00:24:58,996 --> 00:25:01,281
You look at being
married to the same woman
386
00:25:01,381 --> 00:25:03,917
all those decades...
387
00:25:04,170 --> 00:25:07,860
when you're 20, 21, 22,
388
00:25:07,186 --> 00:25:10,550
what did you know?
389
00:25:10,155 --> 00:25:13,226
Both of us were young
and unformed.
390
00:25:13,326 --> 00:25:16,263
How in the world
can you be that lucky?
391
00:25:16,363 --> 00:25:18,131
How did you propose?
392
00:25:18,231 --> 00:25:20,631
Imperfectly.
393
00:25:22,686 --> 00:25:27,673
I was getting ready
to leave for Pensacola.
394
00:25:27,773 --> 00:25:29,676
About 10:00 in the morning,
I said to my folks,
395
00:25:29,776 --> 00:25:30,910
"I'll be back.
396
00:25:31,100 --> 00:25:33,130
I'm gonna go down
and see Joyce."
397
00:25:33,113 --> 00:25:34,314
I asked her to marry me.
398
00:25:34,414 --> 00:25:35,748
I didn't get down on my knees.
399
00:25:35,848 --> 00:25:37,883
I didn't do anything fancy.
400
00:25:37,983 --> 00:25:39,785
I didn't want to get married,
401
00:25:39,885 --> 00:25:41,621
but I sure as heck
didn't want her
402
00:25:41,721 --> 00:25:43,722
to marry anyone else.
403
00:25:43,822 --> 00:25:46,580
And I was correct.
404
00:25:46,158 --> 00:25:47,158
It was a good decision.
405
00:25:48,110 --> 00:25:50,349
It just hadn't been
part of my plan.
406
00:25:56,190 --> 00:25:58,138
Director of the
office of economic opportunity
407
00:25:58,238 --> 00:26:01,760
was Rumsfeld’s first job
for Richard Nixon.
408
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,313
Later, when O.E.O. Seemed
headed for extinction,
409
00:26:06,413 --> 00:26:10,836
Mr. Nixon named him director
of the cost of living council.
410
00:26:11,836 --> 00:26:13,530
After friction developed
411
00:26:13,153 --> 00:26:15,354
between Rumsfeld
and H.R. Haldeman,
412
00:26:15,454 --> 00:26:18,658
Rumsfeld requested a change
413
00:26:18,758 --> 00:26:21,260
and was sent to Brussels
as the U.S. ambassador
414
00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:24,363
to the north Atlantic
treaty organization.
415
00:26:24,463 --> 00:26:26,320
He got out just in time
416
00:26:26,132 --> 00:26:28,221
and survived Watergate
with reputation intact.
417
00:26:31,221 --> 00:26:34,740
A person who works
that hard to become president
418
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,911
had to believe that
everything he did or thought
419
00:26:39,110 --> 00:26:43,783
would be useful to preserve.
420
00:26:43,883 --> 00:26:46,850
He puts in place
these recording devices,
421
00:26:46,185 --> 00:26:48,688
like other presidents had,
422
00:26:48,788 --> 00:26:50,256
and then he'd go about
being himself,
423
00:26:50,356 --> 00:26:52,570
and sometimes
he'd let his hair down
424
00:26:52,157 --> 00:26:55,996
and say things in ways
that he might not have said
425
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,320
had he remembered
that each second of the day
426
00:26:59,132 --> 00:27:00,633
that it was being recorded.
427
00:27:00,733 --> 00:27:02,936
All of us say things
we shouldn't say,
428
00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:05,872
that on reflection,
we wish we hadn't said.
429
00:27:05,972 --> 00:27:08,675
I expect he just felt that
on balance,
430
00:27:08,775 --> 00:27:10,110
everything was worth preserving
431
00:27:10,210 --> 00:27:12,990
because he was
an historic figure.
432
00:28:06,250 --> 00:28:08,868
Did presidents after
Nixon make recordings
433
00:28:08,968 --> 00:28:10,269
in the White House?
434
00:28:10,369 --> 00:28:12,337
The only president
I was close enough to
435
00:28:12,437 --> 00:28:14,774
to answer that question about
was Gerald R. Ford,
436
00:28:14,874 --> 00:28:17,310
and I can assure you he did not.
437
00:28:17,410 --> 00:28:21,140
My guess is that people
tend not to fall
438
00:28:21,114 --> 00:28:23,149
in exactly the same potholes
439
00:28:23,249 --> 00:28:26,300
that their predecessors do.
440
00:28:27,300 --> 00:28:29,722
More often than not,
they make original mistakes.
441
00:28:29,822 --> 00:28:31,725
We all do.
442
00:28:31,825 --> 00:28:35,295
But I assume the presidency
under extraordinary...
443
00:28:35,395 --> 00:28:39,199
Gerald Ford had announced,
when he first took office,
444
00:28:39,299 --> 00:28:43,236
that he was not gonna have
a chief of staff.
445
00:28:43,336 --> 00:28:45,471
He was going to be
the anti-Nixon,
446
00:28:45,571 --> 00:28:49,308
the anti-Haldeman,
the anti-Ehrlichman.
447
00:28:49,408 --> 00:28:51,878
He had said he was
gonna have a coordinator
448
00:28:51,978 --> 00:28:53,747
or something like that.
449
00:28:53,847 --> 00:28:54,879
And that's when I told him
450
00:28:55,310 --> 00:28:56,261
he'd have to find somebody else,
451
00:28:56,361 --> 00:28:57,883
because it wasn't gonna work,
452
00:28:57,983 --> 00:29:01,187
and I didn't want
to be a party to it.
453
00:29:01,287 --> 00:29:05,112
After a while,
he agreed that I was right.
454
00:29:08,112 --> 00:29:10,196
At the time,
there were a number of people
455
00:29:10,296 --> 00:29:13,298
still being looked at
by what was then called,
456
00:29:13,398 --> 00:29:17,804
"the special prosecutor."
457
00:29:17,904 --> 00:29:20,730
This is really
an extraordinary moment.
458
00:29:20,173 --> 00:29:25,144
The White House is filled
with lawyers and investigators.
459
00:29:25,244 --> 00:29:27,865
That's exactly right.
460
00:29:28,865 --> 00:29:32,451
It was September 29, 1974,
461
00:29:32,551 --> 00:29:35,200
in the morning
that I dictated this memo
462
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,477
on the subject of the safe
in the chief of staff's office.
463
00:29:40,477 --> 00:29:44,130
"I arrived
at approximately 5:00 p.m.
464
00:29:44,230 --> 00:29:47,180
I wanted to clean out the
place so that I could move in,
465
00:29:48,180 --> 00:29:50,503
and I wanted to make sure that
there was nothing in the place
466
00:29:50,603 --> 00:29:52,304
that I didn't want there,
467
00:29:52,404 --> 00:29:57,477
such as recording equipment,
telephone bugs, and the like.
468
00:29:57,577 --> 00:30:00,450
At approximately 5:15 p.m.,
469
00:30:00,145 --> 00:30:03,160
bill Walker commented
that there was a safe
470
00:30:03,116 --> 00:30:05,170
in the cupboard."
471
00:30:05,117 --> 00:30:08,600
This says, "to the left
of the fireplace."
472
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:10,422
If you're standing
in the fireplace,
473
00:30:10,522 --> 00:30:11,824
it was to the left.
474
00:30:11,924 --> 00:30:13,580
Actually, it was to the right
475
00:30:13,158 --> 00:30:14,576
if you faced the fireplace.
476
00:30:24,654 --> 00:30:26,406
So here's a safe,
and it's locked.
477
00:30:26,506 --> 00:30:28,842
And I thought, "oh, my goodness.
478
00:30:28,942 --> 00:30:31,844
I wonder
what's in that safe?"
479
00:30:31,944 --> 00:30:33,513
I said to Dick Cheney,
480
00:30:33,613 --> 00:30:35,414
my assistant who was helping me,
481
00:30:35,514 --> 00:30:37,483
"look, why don't we get
the secret service,
482
00:30:37,583 --> 00:30:40,353
get 'em down here with people
who can move the safe
483
00:30:40,453 --> 00:30:42,855
and open it
or do whatever they have to do."
484
00:30:42,955 --> 00:30:45,570
And what happened
to the safe in the end?
485
00:30:45,157 --> 00:30:48,930
The end for me was when
I got it out of my office
486
00:30:48,193 --> 00:30:52,810
under a proper
chain of evidence.
487
00:31:01,250 --> 00:31:05,372
♪ I'm dreaming ♪
488
00:31:05,472 --> 00:31:11,750
♪ of a white Christmas ♪
489
00:31:11,175 --> 00:31:12,175
♪ just like the ones ♪
490
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:18,200
♪ I used to know ♪
491
00:31:18,290 --> 00:31:22,228
♪ where the treetops glisten ♪
492
00:31:22,328 --> 00:31:24,290
♪ and children listen ♪
493
00:31:24,129 --> 00:31:25,364
They put the word out,
494
00:31:25,464 --> 00:31:27,255
"stay tuned
to armed forces radio.
495
00:31:31,255 --> 00:31:32,604
When you hear it said
496
00:31:32,704 --> 00:31:37,176
that the temperature is rising
to 105 degrees
497
00:31:37,276 --> 00:31:40,947
and you hear, 'I'm dreaming
of a white Christmas,'
498
00:31:41,470 --> 00:31:43,236
you'll know
the evacuation is ordered."
499
00:31:46,236 --> 00:31:50,923
The north Vietnamese
and Viet Cong forces
500
00:31:51,230 --> 00:31:52,991
moved into Saigon
501
00:31:53,910 --> 00:31:56,150
directly towards
the U.S. facilities.
502
00:32:00,150 --> 00:32:02,502
The scenes of the helicopter
503
00:32:02,602 --> 00:32:05,400
lifting people off
of the roof of the building
504
00:32:05,104 --> 00:32:06,205
were really heartbreaking,
505
00:32:06,305 --> 00:32:08,141
because you had
really wonderful people
506
00:32:08,241 --> 00:32:10,310
who'd worked with our forces
507
00:32:10,410 --> 00:32:12,445
and knew that their circumstance
508
00:32:12,545 --> 00:32:14,546
when the Vietcong
and north Vietnamese
509
00:32:14,646 --> 00:32:17,216
took over that country
would be difficult,
510
00:32:17,316 --> 00:32:20,218
that they'd be killed
or put in jail.
511
00:32:20,318 --> 00:32:21,709
They kept lifting
more and more out,
512
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:23,309
and more kept coming.
513
00:32:26,309 --> 00:32:28,260
They ended up landing
so many helicopters
514
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,264
on the carrier that they
started shoving helicopters off
515
00:32:31,364 --> 00:32:34,616
so that they could get
more helicopters on.
516
00:32:49,333 --> 00:32:52,584
Were you with the president
when all of this was going down?
517
00:32:52,684 --> 00:32:55,520
Yes, I was in the oval office
518
00:32:55,620 --> 00:32:58,123
with secretary Kissinger
and the president
519
00:32:58,223 --> 00:33:01,781
and other close aides
to the president.
520
00:33:04,781 --> 00:33:08,186
It was a day anyone involved
will never forget.
521
00:33:10,186 --> 00:33:17,900
The inevitable ugly ending
of an unsuccessful effort.
522
00:33:17,109 --> 00:33:20,532
Do you think that there's
a lesson to be taken from this?
523
00:33:22,532 --> 00:33:24,283
Well, one would hope
that most things
524
00:33:24,383 --> 00:33:28,121
that happen in life
prove to be lessons.
525
00:33:28,221 --> 00:33:29,322
Some things work out.
526
00:33:29,422 --> 00:33:31,710
Some things don't.
That didn't.
527
00:33:33,710 --> 00:33:36,363
If that's a lesson...
yes, it's a lesson.
528
00:33:53,363 --> 00:33:56,248
President Gerald Ford
had given a talk
529
00:33:56,348 --> 00:33:58,433
to a labor group.
530
00:34:05,209 --> 00:34:06,691
He went out the back,
531
00:34:06,791 --> 00:34:10,396
and we went into
a freight elevator.
532
00:34:10,496 --> 00:34:12,130
The doors went open,
533
00:34:12,230 --> 00:34:13,432
we walked out,
534
00:34:13,532 --> 00:34:16,668
and the top door came back down,
535
00:34:16,768 --> 00:34:20,273
and it hit Gerald Ford
right across the forehead.
536
00:34:20,373 --> 00:34:25,278
And he ended up with a cut
about an inch and a half wide.
537
00:34:25,378 --> 00:34:28,113
Of course, at that moment,
Chevy chase and these people
538
00:34:28,213 --> 00:34:30,182
were talking about Ford
bumping his head
539
00:34:30,282 --> 00:34:32,773
or stumbling.
540
00:34:37,773 --> 00:34:40,193
So we went up in the room
and the doctor started
541
00:34:40,293 --> 00:34:42,628
putting powder on it
to see if he could calm it down
542
00:34:42,728 --> 00:34:45,298
so it didn't look like
a neon sign.
543
00:34:45,398 --> 00:34:47,365
It came time to leave.
544
00:34:47,465 --> 00:34:49,735
He waved and shook hands.
545
00:34:49,835 --> 00:34:53,221
Got out to the street corner...
546
00:34:54,423 --> 00:34:55,725
A shot rang out.
547
00:34:57,561 --> 00:35:01,113
Sara Jane Moore
was across the street,
548
00:35:01,213 --> 00:35:02,603
fired a bullet.
549
00:35:07,603 --> 00:35:08,820
It went by his head,
550
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:10,322
by the secret service
guy's head,
551
00:35:10,422 --> 00:35:14,220
by my head.
552
00:35:16,213 --> 00:35:18,281
A matter of inches
from both of us.
553
00:35:21,418 --> 00:35:22,568
We got in the car,
554
00:35:22,668 --> 00:35:24,436
pushed him down
on the floor, and...
555
00:35:24,536 --> 00:35:26,606
Secret service man on top,
I'm on top.
556
00:35:26,706 --> 00:35:28,857
The car races out of the city...
557
00:35:30,527 --> 00:35:32,912
...not knowing
what might be next.
558
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:34,880
Finally you hear
this muffled thing
559
00:35:34,980 --> 00:35:36,615
from president Ford,
and he says,
560
00:35:36,715 --> 00:35:37,749
"come on, you guys.
561
00:35:37,849 --> 00:35:39,217
Get off.
You're heavy."
562
00:35:39,317 --> 00:35:41,354
And so we sat up,
563
00:35:41,454 --> 00:35:45,876
went to the airplane, and left.
564
00:35:46,876 --> 00:35:48,760
I used to tease him and say
565
00:35:48,860 --> 00:35:53,266
I hoped he appreciated fully
how I handled his departure
566
00:35:53,366 --> 00:35:55,767
from the hotel in San Francisco.
567
00:35:55,867 --> 00:35:57,202
No one ever noticed
568
00:35:57,302 --> 00:35:59,965
that he had the neon sign
on his forehead.
569
00:36:07,965 --> 00:36:11,751
"Mr. President,
I care a great deal
570
00:36:11,851 --> 00:36:15,387
about you as a person
and about your success.
571
00:36:15,487 --> 00:36:18,691
I care deeply about the country
572
00:36:18,791 --> 00:36:21,193
and believe
it is vitally important
573
00:36:21,293 --> 00:36:23,528
that you be re-elected.
574
00:36:23,628 --> 00:36:27,300
The morale is low
in the White House
575
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,757
because of the organizational
approach you have tolerated.
576
00:36:33,757 --> 00:36:37,642
The job you need done
cannot be done
577
00:36:37,742 --> 00:36:40,501
unless major changes
take place."
578
00:36:44,501 --> 00:36:47,253
Dick Cheney and I
both attached our resignations
579
00:36:47,353 --> 00:36:51,370
to the memo.
580
00:36:51,137 --> 00:36:52,525
There wasn't anything
in the memo
581
00:36:52,625 --> 00:36:54,566
I hadn't talked to him about
four, five, six times.
582
00:36:54,666 --> 00:36:57,262
I decided that putting it down
in one place,
583
00:36:57,362 --> 00:36:58,798
deciding to resign,
584
00:36:58,898 --> 00:37:02,987
causing him to register
how strongly we felt about it.
585
00:37:03,987 --> 00:37:07,472
He ended up separating
the positions
586
00:37:07,572 --> 00:37:11,244
of secretary of state
and national security advisor,
587
00:37:11,344 --> 00:37:13,679
which Henry had held
both of them.
588
00:37:13,779 --> 00:37:17,749
And he made
several other changes.
589
00:37:17,849 --> 00:37:19,318
Put George Herbert Walker bush
590
00:37:19,418 --> 00:37:22,588
in the central
intelligence agency.
591
00:37:22,688 --> 00:37:25,458
He wanted to make a change
at the Pentagon,
592
00:37:25,558 --> 00:37:28,894
asked me to become
secretary of defense,
593
00:37:28,994 --> 00:37:33,398
then my deputy, Dick Cheney,
to become chief of staff.
594
00:37:33,498 --> 00:37:37,637
Of course, this becomes
known as the Halloween massacre.
595
00:37:37,737 --> 00:37:38,737
Oh.
596
00:37:38,938 --> 00:37:40,673
I guess it is.
597
00:37:40,773 --> 00:37:42,941
You know, a narrative
gets built out there
598
00:37:43,410 --> 00:37:44,677
over a period of time.
599
00:37:44,777 --> 00:37:47,947
Big personalities
going at each other.
600
00:37:48,470 --> 00:37:50,650
In fact,
it's perfectly understandable.
601
00:37:50,750 --> 00:37:52,418
They represent
different institutions,
602
00:37:52,518 --> 00:37:53,926
and they have
different perspectives.
603
00:37:54,260 --> 00:37:55,787
But it gets written up
in the media
604
00:37:55,887 --> 00:37:58,824
as though it's jealousies
and personalities
605
00:37:58,924 --> 00:38:01,593
and that type of thing
as opposed to
606
00:38:01,693 --> 00:38:03,349
different perspectives.
607
00:38:06,349 --> 00:38:08,668
When Shakespeare wrote history,
608
00:38:08,768 --> 00:38:14,706
it was all character defects,
jealousies,
609
00:38:14,806 --> 00:38:16,876
misunderstandings,
610
00:38:16,976 --> 00:38:19,612
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
611
00:38:19,712 --> 00:38:22,447
In Shakespeare,
it's the motivating force
612
00:38:22,547 --> 00:38:23,547
of history.
613
00:38:28,137 --> 00:38:31,700
Maybe Shakespeare got it wrong.
614
00:38:32,700 --> 00:38:34,693
Well, you know,
it was a different time.
615
00:38:34,793 --> 00:38:37,430
He was dealing
with different issues.
616
00:38:37,530 --> 00:38:38,664
Maybe he had it right.
617
00:38:38,764 --> 00:38:41,210
Maybe it just was different
later.
618
00:38:45,210 --> 00:38:48,574
Nelson Rockefeller has taken
himself out of consideration
619
00:38:48,674 --> 00:38:50,108
as a vice presidential candidate
620
00:38:50,208 --> 00:38:51,910
on president Ford's ticket
next year.
621
00:38:52,100 --> 00:38:53,671
Rockefeller has
little choice in the matter.
622
00:38:53,771 --> 00:38:56,481
Rumsfeld's calculated plan
to pave his own way
623
00:38:56,581 --> 00:38:58,416
as a running mate
for president Ford.
624
00:38:58,516 --> 00:39:00,170
Donald Rumsfeld has
been mentioned for months
625
00:39:00,270 --> 00:39:02,781
as a possible vice presidential
running mate with president Ford.
626
00:39:03,500 --> 00:39:04,389
...in congress think
his new job
627
00:39:04,489 --> 00:39:05,758
as defense secretary is a means
628
00:39:05,858 --> 00:39:07,392
of putting Rumsfeld
in the running
629
00:39:07,492 --> 00:39:08,994
for the vice presidency.
630
00:39:09,940 --> 00:39:11,300
Donald Rumsfeld
takes over the Pentagon
631
00:39:11,130 --> 00:39:13,699
but also keeps most
of his personal influence
632
00:39:13,799 --> 00:39:14,934
with president Ford.
633
00:39:15,340 --> 00:39:16,135
...the shake-up
took place.
634
00:39:16,235 --> 00:39:17,702
The consensus is that Rumsfeld
635
00:39:17,802 --> 00:39:19,370
again emerged the winner.
636
00:39:19,137 --> 00:39:20,505
Rumsfeld's
conservative influence
637
00:39:20,605 --> 00:39:21,986
at the White House
will be carried on
638
00:39:22,860 --> 00:39:23,842
by 34-year-old
Richard Cheney,
639
00:39:23,942 --> 00:39:25,744
who said in his office
this afternoon,
640
00:39:25,844 --> 00:39:29,101
he'll be running things
just like don did.
641
00:39:31,101 --> 00:39:34,736
In November 1975...
642
00:39:36,873 --> 00:39:41,544
I became the youngest secretary
of defense in history.
643
00:39:56,559 --> 00:39:57,876
It's important, I suppose,
644
00:39:57,976 --> 00:40:00,179
to go back
and set the background
645
00:40:00,279 --> 00:40:02,702
for this occasion.
646
00:40:05,702 --> 00:40:08,820
Henry Kissinger had the job
647
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,191
of fostering Detentes,
648
00:40:13,291 --> 00:40:16,614
a lessening of tension
with the Soviet Union.
649
00:40:18,614 --> 00:40:20,733
The more talk there was
about Detentes
650
00:40:20,833 --> 00:40:22,568
and the more
these negotiations went on
651
00:40:22,668 --> 00:40:26,639
and the more people sat around
clinking champagne glasses
652
00:40:26,739 --> 00:40:28,206
with great big smiles,
653
00:40:28,306 --> 00:40:30,476
and the world saw all of that,
654
00:40:30,576 --> 00:40:32,100
the congress
and the American people
655
00:40:32,110 --> 00:40:34,746
would not be in favor of
increasing defense investment.
656
00:40:34,846 --> 00:40:38,550
It was really fundamental
differences of approach.
657
00:40:38,650 --> 00:40:42,921
Weakness, historically,
tends to prove to be provocative
658
00:40:43,210 --> 00:40:45,657
and create instabilities
in wars and conflicts.
659
00:40:45,757 --> 00:40:47,827
Strength on our part
will contribute
660
00:40:47,927 --> 00:40:49,268
to peace and stability
in the world.
661
00:40:49,368 --> 00:40:50,695
I'm not saying with certainty
662
00:40:50,795 --> 00:40:51,863
that the Russians are coming.
663
00:40:51,963 --> 00:40:53,599
I'm saying the trends are here.
664
00:40:53,699 --> 00:40:55,400
I'm not saying
the Russians are 10 feet tall.
665
00:40:55,500 --> 00:40:56,735
I'm saying they used to be 5'3".
666
00:40:56,835 --> 00:40:58,103
They're now 5'9 1/2",
667
00:40:58,203 --> 00:41:00,157
and they're growing,
and we're not.
668
00:41:02,157 --> 00:41:06,878
To be brand-new
in the department of defense
669
00:41:06,978 --> 00:41:11,916
with a presidential campaign
going on,
670
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,253
my task was to meet with members
of the United States congress.
671
00:41:15,353 --> 00:41:18,490
Small, intimate setting
where I could take
672
00:41:18,590 --> 00:41:19,724
a classified briefing
673
00:41:19,824 --> 00:41:22,228
and show them
the overhead photographs
674
00:41:22,328 --> 00:41:24,796
that were highly classified,
that were top secret,
675
00:41:24,896 --> 00:41:28,253
let them see for themselves
what the Soviet Union was doing.
676
00:41:31,253 --> 00:41:34,240
I would get 6 or 8 or 10 of them
677
00:41:34,340 --> 00:41:36,800
and bring them down
to the Roosevelt room,
678
00:41:36,108 --> 00:41:37,842
which is right
across from the oval office
679
00:41:37,942 --> 00:41:39,283
in the west wing
of the White House.
680
00:41:39,383 --> 00:41:40,945
Not in the Pentagon;
In the White House.
681
00:41:41,450 --> 00:41:44,148
In the White House, absolutely.
682
00:41:44,248 --> 00:41:46,170
If you have a meeting
in the White House
683
00:41:46,117 --> 00:41:47,218
in the Roosevelt room,
684
00:41:47,318 --> 00:41:48,586
and the president stops by
685
00:41:48,686 --> 00:41:49,822
and says hello to 'em,
686
00:41:49,922 --> 00:41:54,590
it is much more memorable
for them.
687
00:41:54,159 --> 00:41:56,896
I had a major fraction of
all the United States senators
688
00:41:56,996 --> 00:41:58,863
and all the members
of the congress
689
00:41:58,963 --> 00:42:00,231
come in to those meetings,
690
00:42:00,331 --> 00:42:04,680
you know, night after
night after night.
691
00:42:04,168 --> 00:42:06,539
When you would show
these photographs to people
692
00:42:06,639 --> 00:42:09,275
from satellites
or from a U-2,
693
00:42:09,375 --> 00:42:11,300
people were amazed by them.
694
00:42:15,300 --> 00:42:20,753
In addition, we prepared a
unclassified series of charts.
695
00:42:20,853 --> 00:42:25,256
One was on U.S./U.S.S.R.
Military manpower.
696
00:42:25,356 --> 00:42:30,946
Another one had U.S. and Soviet
military investment...
697
00:42:36,152 --> 00:42:39,590
Intercontinental
ballistic missile developments...
698
00:42:44,590 --> 00:42:47,328
Changes in
strategic force levels...
699
00:42:48,264 --> 00:42:52,284
Warheads, megatonnage,
700
00:42:52,384 --> 00:42:56,688
estimated production rates.
701
00:42:56,788 --> 00:42:59,925
No one statistic
was determinative.
702
00:43:00,250 --> 00:43:02,910
What was important is,
what were the trend lines?
703
00:43:27,404 --> 00:43:32,411
Did it come as a surprise
that Carter beat Ford in 1976?
704
00:43:34,411 --> 00:43:39,231
He started out way behind.
705
00:43:39,331 --> 00:43:42,401
If it had gone on
another week or two,
706
00:43:42,501 --> 00:43:45,888
he might very well have won.
707
00:44:06,275 --> 00:44:08,126
The republican
national convention
708
00:44:08,226 --> 00:44:10,863
begins here tomorrow, and most
of the players are in place.
709
00:44:10,963 --> 00:44:13,104
Everybody's playing the
vice presidential guessing game.
710
00:44:13,204 --> 00:44:14,833
One big question remains.
711
00:44:14,933 --> 00:44:16,672
Who will be Reagan's
vice presidential choice?
712
00:44:16,772 --> 00:44:18,549
The Republicans are
floating some of the rumors
713
00:44:18,649 --> 00:44:20,139
in an effort to keep...
714
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:22,130
the list includes former
ambassador George Bush,
715
00:44:22,113 --> 00:44:23,742
who gave Reagan his
toughest primary battle,
716
00:44:23,842 --> 00:44:25,711
or the defense secretary,
Donald Rumsfeld.
717
00:44:25,811 --> 00:44:27,570
The questions about
Rumsfeld are whether his ties
718
00:44:27,670 --> 00:44:29,113
to republican big business are too close
719
00:44:29,213 --> 00:44:31,115
and whether he's too ambitious
to fit in
720
00:44:31,215 --> 00:44:32,487
playing second fiddle to Reagan.
721
00:44:35,700 --> 00:44:38,691
There is the picture
of Donald Rumsfeld
722
00:44:38,791 --> 00:44:43,295
as Machiavelli,
and that you managed
723
00:44:43,395 --> 00:44:46,970
George H.W. Bush
into the CIA
724
00:44:46,197 --> 00:44:50,101
as a way of destroying
his presidential ambitions.
725
00:44:50,201 --> 00:44:52,300
It's utter nonsense.
726
00:44:52,103 --> 00:44:53,204
He had to know the truth.
727
00:44:53,304 --> 00:44:55,206
And why he would
promote that idea...
728
00:44:55,306 --> 00:44:58,376
he must have believed it
for some reason.
729
00:44:58,476 --> 00:45:00,445
I suppose it's kind of
more fun for somebody
730
00:45:00,545 --> 00:45:02,780
to be able to say
they were pushed,
731
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:04,938
rather than they tripped.
732
00:45:09,938 --> 00:45:13,825
Reagan was up a floor above.
733
00:45:13,925 --> 00:45:17,262
I was with my wife, Joyce.
734
00:45:17,362 --> 00:45:19,363
I had a man glued at my hip,
735
00:45:19,463 --> 00:45:22,401
ready to tell me
if governor Reagan called
736
00:45:22,501 --> 00:45:25,523
and wanted me
to be vice president.
737
00:45:27,523 --> 00:45:33,479
The press was filled
with this excitement
738
00:45:33,579 --> 00:45:37,282
about the possibility
of president Reagan
739
00:45:37,382 --> 00:45:39,517
selecting Gerald R. Ford.
740
00:45:39,617 --> 00:45:43,287
I was stunned at the thought.
741
00:45:43,387 --> 00:45:46,570
It's like sticking four hands
on the steering wheel.
742
00:45:46,157 --> 00:45:48,793
You're gonna end up
putting the truck in the ditch.
743
00:45:48,893 --> 00:45:50,280
My phone rang.
744
00:45:50,128 --> 00:45:51,996
It was governor Reagan.
745
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:54,266
He said, "don,
746
00:45:54,366 --> 00:45:57,336
I want you to know
that I've decided to have
747
00:45:57,436 --> 00:46:02,173
George Bush be
my vice presidential nominee."
748
00:46:02,273 --> 00:46:05,244
I said, "fantastic.
749
00:46:05,344 --> 00:46:08,113
I am so relieved
750
00:46:08,213 --> 00:46:11,160
that you decided
not to have Gerald Ford."
751
00:46:11,116 --> 00:46:13,918
He said, "oh, no, don.
752
00:46:14,180 --> 00:46:15,988
Jerry and I decided together
753
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:17,359
that it wouldn't be
a good idea."
754
00:46:20,909 --> 00:46:23,950
It seems to me
that if that decision
755
00:46:23,195 --> 00:46:25,264
had gone
a slightly different way,
756
00:46:25,364 --> 00:46:27,331
you would have been
vice president
757
00:46:27,431 --> 00:46:32,237
and future president
of the United States.
758
00:46:32,337 --> 00:46:33,630
That's possible.
759
00:46:40,630 --> 00:46:43,182
I was living in Illinois
760
00:46:43,282 --> 00:46:46,851
and was chief executive officer
of a pharmaceutical company,
761
00:46:46,951 --> 00:46:49,921
G.D. Searle and co.
762
00:46:50,210 --> 00:46:53,325
In a barracks in Beirut,
763
00:46:53,425 --> 00:46:57,563
a truck loaded with explosives
764
00:46:57,663 --> 00:47:01,418
came racing through the gate,
under the building.
765
00:47:03,418 --> 00:47:07,427
Killed 241 Americans.
766
00:47:11,427 --> 00:47:14,345
Shortly after,
the secretary of state,
767
00:47:14,445 --> 00:47:16,280
George Shultz, called and said
768
00:47:16,380 --> 00:47:18,316
that they wanted me to serve
769
00:47:18,416 --> 00:47:21,385
as special envoy
for president Reagan
770
00:47:21,485 --> 00:47:22,621
to the Middle East.
771
00:47:22,721 --> 00:47:24,590
...with our new representative.
772
00:47:24,690 --> 00:47:27,992
So, don, good luck,
and our hearts are with you.
773
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:29,427
Mr. President...
774
00:47:29,527 --> 00:47:33,932
I began traveling in the region.
775
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:38,436
I would send cables back
776
00:47:38,536 --> 00:47:43,929
trying to report back
on my observations.
777
00:47:45,929 --> 00:47:50,314
I entitled one of them,
back in November of 1983,
778
00:47:50,414 --> 00:47:52,175
"the swamp."
779
00:47:59,175 --> 00:48:01,459
"I suspect we ought
to lighten our hand
780
00:48:01,559 --> 00:48:04,563
in the Middle East.
781
00:48:04,663 --> 00:48:08,566
We should move the framework
away from the current situation
782
00:48:08,666 --> 00:48:11,570
where everyone is telling us
everything is our fault
783
00:48:11,670 --> 00:48:13,639
and angry with us
784
00:48:13,739 --> 00:48:17,909
to a basis where
they are seeking our help.
785
00:48:18,900 --> 00:48:21,120
In the future,
we should never use U.S. troops
786
00:48:21,112 --> 00:48:25,150
as a peacekeeping force.
787
00:48:25,250 --> 00:48:28,487
We're too big a target.
788
00:48:28,587 --> 00:48:34,592
Let the Fijians
or New Zealanders do that.
789
00:48:34,692 --> 00:48:36,193
And keep reminding ourselves
790
00:48:36,293 --> 00:48:39,197
that it is easier
to get into something
791
00:48:39,297 --> 00:48:41,860
than it is to get out of it.
792
00:48:44,860 --> 00:48:45,304
I promise you,
793
00:48:45,404 --> 00:48:48,639
you will never hear
out of my mouth the phrase,
794
00:48:48,739 --> 00:48:51,270
'the U.S. seeks
a just and lasting peace
795
00:48:52,270 --> 00:48:53,766
in the Middle East.'
796
00:48:57,766 --> 00:49:00,519
there is little that is just,
797
00:49:00,619 --> 00:49:04,289
and the only things I've seen
that are lasting
798
00:49:04,389 --> 00:49:09,182
are conflict, blackmail,
and killing."
799
00:49:30,733 --> 00:49:34,653
We arrived at night,
as I recall.
800
00:49:34,753 --> 00:49:40,570
The building where
Saddam Hussein had his office
801
00:49:40,157 --> 00:49:41,325
had sandbags all around it
802
00:49:41,425 --> 00:49:42,760
because Baghdad is so close
803
00:49:42,860 --> 00:49:44,563
to the Iranian border.
804
00:49:44,663 --> 00:49:46,331
And they were at war with Iran,
805
00:49:46,431 --> 00:49:48,767
and they were being shelled
from time to time.
806
00:49:48,867 --> 00:49:51,503
We went into this building,
got in an elevator,
807
00:49:51,603 --> 00:49:53,572
went up,
got out of the elevator,
808
00:49:53,672 --> 00:49:56,273
and the three or four people
I was with
809
00:49:56,373 --> 00:49:57,476
were walking along.
810
00:49:57,576 --> 00:50:01,246
All of a sudden,
an Iraqi cut me off
811
00:50:01,346 --> 00:50:04,449
and took me down a corridor,
a dark corridor.
812
00:50:04,549 --> 00:50:07,586
Oh, yeah, I don't know,
20 paces, 30 paces.
813
00:50:07,686 --> 00:50:09,621
And then into a room.
814
00:50:09,721 --> 00:50:11,255
And I was alone in the room,
815
00:50:11,355 --> 00:50:13,458
and I looked up,
and here is this man
816
00:50:13,558 --> 00:50:17,610
in fatigues
with a pistol on his hip.
817
00:50:17,161 --> 00:50:19,300
And it turned out
to be Tariq Aziz,
818
00:50:19,130 --> 00:50:22,856
the deputy prime minister
and foreign minister.
819
00:50:27,856 --> 00:50:32,209
It was hours that we were
in there talking alone.
820
00:50:32,309 --> 00:50:34,412
It looked like
it had leather walls,
821
00:50:34,512 --> 00:50:35,746
padded walls,
822
00:50:35,846 --> 00:50:37,682
maybe Naugahyde or something.
823
00:50:37,782 --> 00:50:39,403
We would have a meeting
with Saddam Hussein
824
00:50:39,503 --> 00:50:42,287
the next morning,
and the time was set.
825
00:50:42,387 --> 00:50:46,246
And we went in,
and there he was.
826
00:50:50,246 --> 00:50:55,666
A brutal dictator
in his military fatigues
827
00:50:55,766 --> 00:50:57,759
with his pistol at his hip.
828
00:51:03,759 --> 00:51:05,443
It was just a preliminary step,
829
00:51:05,543 --> 00:51:07,495
and it became almost iconic...
830
00:51:08,831 --> 00:51:12,651
...my shaking hands
with this brutal dictator
831
00:51:12,751 --> 00:51:16,813
who later became known as
"the butcher of Baghdad."
832
00:51:24,813 --> 00:51:26,564
He postured constantly
833
00:51:26,664 --> 00:51:30,534
and was presenting himself
as the great leader,
834
00:51:30,634 --> 00:51:32,436
which dictators apparently do.
835
00:51:32,536 --> 00:51:36,208
They foster that,
and have schoolkids praise them,
836
00:51:36,308 --> 00:51:38,409
make sure that their image
is everywhere,
837
00:51:38,509 --> 00:51:41,278
whether in a photograph
or a statue,
838
00:51:41,378 --> 00:51:45,117
and cause people
to bow and kowtow.
839
00:51:45,217 --> 00:51:47,785
And, you know, if you see
your picture everywhere
840
00:51:47,885 --> 00:51:50,621
long enough,
and if you see enough statues,
841
00:51:50,721 --> 00:51:53,691
pretty soon you might even
begin to believe that.
842
00:51:53,791 --> 00:51:57,528
He almost became
a caricature of himself,
843
00:51:57,628 --> 00:52:02,800
by my standards, as an outsider
not prone to worship idols.
844
00:52:02,900 --> 00:52:08,139
He was living
his image of himself,
845
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:10,597
which was pretend.
846
00:52:49,864 --> 00:52:51,383
There are those
who suggest today
847
00:52:51,483 --> 00:52:52,883
that the United States
is in decline,
848
00:52:52,983 --> 00:52:54,753
that, in fact, we should allow
849
00:52:54,853 --> 00:52:57,588
someone else to contribute
to the stability in the world.
850
00:52:57,688 --> 00:52:59,356
I happen to disagree with that,
851
00:52:59,456 --> 00:53:01,293
and I think that we need
to provide leadership,
852
00:53:01,393 --> 00:53:03,462
and I think that leadership
can make an enormous difference
853
00:53:03,562 --> 00:53:06,898
in what the world's gonna look like
in the 1990s and the year 2000.
854
00:53:06,998 --> 00:53:09,267
If you read the newspapers
or watch television today,
855
00:53:09,367 --> 00:53:11,403
and you look at the polls,
856
00:53:11,503 --> 00:53:12,903
first they rank Gorbachev
857
00:53:13,300 --> 00:53:14,939
as the reason that
these changes are occurring,
858
00:53:15,390 --> 00:53:16,840
and second,
they gave Reagan some credit,
859
00:53:16,940 --> 00:53:18,909
which is ridiculous.
860
00:53:19,900 --> 00:53:21,746
The credit belongs
to Truman and Adenauer
861
00:53:21,846 --> 00:53:24,583
and to steadfastness
over a period of 40 years.
862
00:53:24,683 --> 00:53:26,300
The credit goes
to the investments
863
00:53:27,300 --> 00:53:28,353
of billions of dollars
864
00:53:28,453 --> 00:53:29,884
over a long, sustained
period of time
865
00:53:30,500 --> 00:53:32,423
by people who were carped at
and criticized
866
00:53:32,523 --> 00:53:35,260
and said, "oh, my goodness,
you're warmongers."
867
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:37,628
It went to the concept
of peace through strength.
868
00:53:37,728 --> 00:53:41,333
And we need to understand
how we got to where we are,
869
00:53:41,433 --> 00:53:44,802
because going forward, we're
gonna have to make a judgment
870
00:53:44,902 --> 00:53:47,606
as to what role
our country ought to play,
871
00:53:47,706 --> 00:53:50,407
and a passive role
would be terribly dangerous.
872
00:53:50,507 --> 00:53:51,642
But who do we want to lead...
873
00:53:51,742 --> 00:53:53,612
provide leadership in the world?
874
00:53:53,712 --> 00:53:54,712
Somebody else?
875
00:54:08,610 --> 00:54:11,496
We're here today
to swear in don Rumsfeld
876
00:54:11,596 --> 00:54:13,465
as secretary of defense
and welcome him back
877
00:54:13,565 --> 00:54:15,700
to the public service.
878
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,570
We were colleagues in government
for nearly six years,
879
00:54:18,670 --> 00:54:21,230
and here, quite simply, is a
man who's been an executive,
880
00:54:22,230 --> 00:54:24,565
a statesman, and a human being
of the first order.
881
00:54:30,565 --> 00:54:32,550
I assume that Dick Cheney
brought you
882
00:54:32,650 --> 00:54:34,619
into the bush administration.
883
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:37,289
I would assume that's the case.
884
00:54:37,389 --> 00:54:42,544
I don't think George W. Bush's
father recommended it.
885
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:51,702
Obviously, George W. Bush
was his own man,
886
00:54:51,802 --> 00:54:54,458
made his own decisions.
887
00:54:56,458 --> 00:54:58,590
"Subject: Chain of command."
888
00:54:59,270 --> 00:55:02,414
A memo to Condoleezza Rice.
889
00:55:02,514 --> 00:55:05,550
"Because I've failed
to get you and the N.S.C. Staff
890
00:55:05,650 --> 00:55:08,420
to stop giving tasks
to combatant commanders
891
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:09,753
and the joint staff,
892
00:55:09,853 --> 00:55:11,588
I've drafted
the attached memorandum.
893
00:55:11,688 --> 00:55:13,570
I'd hoped it would
not be necessary
894
00:55:13,157 --> 00:55:14,925
for me to do it this way,
895
00:55:15,250 --> 00:55:16,593
but since your last memo stated
896
00:55:16,693 --> 00:55:19,331
that we should work it out
from our end,
897
00:55:19,431 --> 00:55:20,865
I'm forced to do so.
898
00:55:20,965 --> 00:55:22,534
You are making a mistake.
899
00:55:22,634 --> 00:55:24,680
You're not in
the chain of command.
900
00:55:24,168 --> 00:55:27,500
Since you cannot seem
to accept that fact,
901
00:55:27,105 --> 00:55:29,600
my only choices
are to go to the president
902
00:55:29,106 --> 00:55:30,941
and ask him to tell you to stop
903
00:55:31,410 --> 00:55:34,790
or to tell anyone
in the department of defense
904
00:55:34,179 --> 00:55:35,646
not to respond to you
905
00:55:35,746 --> 00:55:38,160
or the national
security council staff.
906
00:55:38,116 --> 00:55:40,117
I've decided
to take the latter course.
907
00:55:40,217 --> 00:55:42,420
If it fails, I'll have to go
to the president.
908
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:43,787
One way or other, it will stop,
909
00:55:43,887 --> 00:55:46,423
while I am secretary of defense.
910
00:55:46,523 --> 00:55:48,450
Thanks."
911
00:55:51,450 --> 00:55:52,764
Waging a high-profile war
912
00:55:52,864 --> 00:55:54,865
has thrust Donald Rumsfeld
into the public eye.
913
00:55:54,965 --> 00:55:56,800
Two months into
the war against terror...
914
00:55:56,900 --> 00:55:59,371
Rumsfeld, who has
become the voice of the war.
915
00:55:59,471 --> 00:56:00,871
80% public approval.
916
00:56:00,971 --> 00:56:03,600
Give and take
with the Pentagon press corps
917
00:56:03,106 --> 00:56:05,197
is now must-see television.
918
00:56:09,197 --> 00:56:10,514
Greetings.
919
00:56:10,614 --> 00:56:11,749
Good morning.
920
00:56:11,849 --> 00:56:13,151
Good afternoon.
921
00:56:13,251 --> 00:56:15,119
You know, something's
neither good nor bad
922
00:56:15,219 --> 00:56:18,210
but thinking makes it so,
I suppose.
923
00:56:18,121 --> 00:56:19,441
Yes, you may ask that...
924
00:56:20,708 --> 00:56:22,159
But will I answer that?
No.
925
00:56:22,259 --> 00:56:23,862
I do not want the record to show
926
00:56:23,962 --> 00:56:26,300
that I even bothered
to deny it, however.
927
00:56:26,130 --> 00:56:28,999
So I've decided that
I'm not gonna go asking
928
00:56:29,990 --> 00:56:30,568
for an unclassified
piece of paper.
929
00:56:30,668 --> 00:56:32,470
I don't need it.
You need it.
930
00:56:32,570 --> 00:56:35,407
So you get told things
every day that don't happen.
931
00:56:35,507 --> 00:56:36,907
It doesn't seem
to bother people.
932
00:56:37,700 --> 00:56:39,677
But I'm working my way
over to figuring out
933
00:56:39,777 --> 00:56:41,112
how I won't answer that.
934
00:56:41,212 --> 00:56:42,613
We'll make this
the last question.
935
00:56:42,713 --> 00:56:44,182
Last question.
936
00:56:44,282 --> 00:56:45,937
Mr. secretary, could I just
ask one thing about Gitmo?
937
00:56:46,370 --> 00:56:47,370
Oh, no, no, I love that ending.
938
00:56:47,137 --> 00:56:48,686
I'm...uh...
939
00:56:48,786 --> 00:56:51,143
if you think I'm gonna mess
that one up, you're wrong.
940
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:04,135
The U.S. and its Afghan
allies clearly have the momentum
941
00:57:04,235 --> 00:57:06,700
in the battle for Tora Bora.
942
00:57:06,170 --> 00:57:08,230
Secretary Rumsfeld admitted
it is unclear
943
00:57:09,230 --> 00:57:10,541
when this fight will end.
944
00:57:10,641 --> 00:57:12,510
The number of
prisoners is climbing.
945
00:57:12,610 --> 00:57:14,912
Two weeks ago,
secretary Rumsfeld dismissed
946
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:17,115
the idea of detaining
large numbers
947
00:57:17,215 --> 00:57:18,615
of captured fighters.
948
00:57:18,715 --> 00:57:20,517
Well, this week,
he reversed himself,
949
00:57:20,617 --> 00:57:24,643
saying a large number would
likely be taken into custody.
950
00:57:27,643 --> 00:57:30,228
"January 19, 2002."
951
00:57:30,328 --> 00:57:31,762
The subject:
952
00:57:31,862 --> 00:57:35,566
"Status of Taliban
and Al-Qaeda."
953
00:57:35,666 --> 00:57:37,635
"The United States
has determined
954
00:57:37,735 --> 00:57:40,704
that Al-Qaeda and Taliban
individuals
955
00:57:40,804 --> 00:57:44,175
under the control
of the department of defense,
956
00:57:44,275 --> 00:57:47,711
are not entitled
to prisoner of war status
957
00:57:47,811 --> 00:57:52,684
for purposes of the Geneva
conventions of 1949."
958
00:57:52,784 --> 00:57:54,918
Don't you think
that the decision on Geneva
959
00:57:55,180 --> 00:57:57,722
caused so much trouble?
960
00:57:57,822 --> 00:58:00,758
Oh, my goodness, it would
have been so much easier
961
00:58:00,858 --> 00:58:02,827
if you could treat people,
all of them,
962
00:58:02,927 --> 00:58:06,630
the same as prisoners of war.
963
00:58:06,163 --> 00:58:09,990
Then you wouldn't have
to interrogate anybody.
964
00:58:09,199 --> 00:58:13,604
You could just house them
someplace.
965
00:58:13,704 --> 00:58:15,874
Now, would that have been
a responsible thing
966
00:58:15,974 --> 00:58:18,742
for the president
to do? No.
967
00:58:18,842 --> 00:58:22,180
The president needed to know
what was gonna happen next.
968
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:24,215
Every day,
the intelligence reports said,
969
00:58:24,315 --> 00:58:25,849
"this is a risk.
This is a risk.
970
00:58:25,949 --> 00:58:27,850
Watch out for this.
Something could happen there."
971
00:58:27,950 --> 00:58:31,978
It was the responsibility of the president
to try to prevent a future attack.
972
00:58:36,978 --> 00:58:38,662
Tell you what I'm gonna do.
973
00:58:38,762 --> 00:58:41,231
I am gonna stay here
974
00:58:41,331 --> 00:58:44,235
and answer as many
detainee questions
975
00:58:44,335 --> 00:58:46,938
as need to be answered.
976
00:58:47,380 --> 00:58:48,499
I don't know
that I'll know the answers
977
00:58:48,599 --> 00:58:49,807
to all the questions,
but I...
978
00:58:49,907 --> 00:58:51,242
if I don't, we'll find them,
979
00:58:51,342 --> 00:58:54,120
because it seems to me
it's time to tap down
980
00:58:54,112 --> 00:58:56,246
some of this hyperbole
that we're finding.
981
00:58:56,346 --> 00:58:58,160
Mr. secretary...
Mr. secretary...
982
00:58:58,116 --> 00:58:59,617
- Mr. secretary...
- Mr. secretary.
983
00:58:59,717 --> 00:59:01,258
Is John Walker being treated
the same way
984
00:59:01,358 --> 00:59:03,287
- as the other detainees?
- Yes.
985
00:59:03,387 --> 00:59:04,856
Shackled,
hooded in the transfer...
986
00:59:04,956 --> 00:59:06,557
oh, my goodness.
Now, look.
987
00:59:06,657 --> 00:59:08,592
Is he being treated
like the other detainees,
988
00:59:08,692 --> 00:59:10,994
shackled, hooded,
and what have you?
989
00:59:11,940 --> 00:59:14,999
Oh, well,
let me say this about that.
990
00:59:15,990 --> 00:59:18,702
When people are moved,
they are restrained.
991
00:59:18,802 --> 00:59:21,639
That is true in prisons
across the globe.
992
00:59:21,739 --> 00:59:25,709
Will any single prisoner
be treated humanely?
993
00:59:25,809 --> 00:59:27,110
You bet.
994
00:59:27,210 --> 00:59:29,146
When they are being moved
from place to place,
995
00:59:29,246 --> 00:59:30,914
will they be restrained in a way
996
00:59:31,140 --> 00:59:33,351
so that they are less likely
to be able to
997
00:59:33,451 --> 00:59:35,153
kill an American soldier?
998
00:59:35,253 --> 00:59:36,287
You bet.
999
00:59:36,387 --> 00:59:39,570
Is it inhumane
to do that? No.
1000
00:59:39,157 --> 00:59:40,791
Would it be stupid
to do anything else?
1001
00:59:40,891 --> 00:59:41,891
Yes.
1002
00:59:42,192 --> 00:59:43,710
Mr. secretary...
1003
01:00:01,664 --> 01:00:04,000
what about all these
so-called "torture memos?"
1004
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:07,300
Well, there were, what,
one or two or three.
1005
01:00:08,300 --> 01:00:10,210
I don't know the number,
but there were not
1006
01:00:10,121 --> 01:00:12,122
"all" of these
so-called memos.
1007
01:00:12,222 --> 01:00:14,892
They were mischaracterized
as torture memos,
1008
01:00:14,992 --> 01:00:17,862
and they came, not out of
the bush administration per se,
1009
01:00:17,962 --> 01:00:21,640
but they came out of
the U.S. department of justice,
1010
01:00:21,164 --> 01:00:22,867
blessed by the Attorney General,
1011
01:00:22,967 --> 01:00:26,336
the senior legal official
of the United States of America,
1012
01:00:26,436 --> 01:00:29,340
having been nominated
by a president and confirmed
1013
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:34,112
by the United States senate
overwhelmingly.
1014
01:00:34,212 --> 01:00:36,146
Little different cast
I just put on it
1015
01:00:36,246 --> 01:00:38,471
than the one you did.
1016
01:00:44,500 --> 01:00:47,258
I'll chalk that one up.
1017
01:00:47,358 --> 01:00:49,219
Was the reaction unfair?
1018
01:00:57,219 --> 01:00:59,202
Well, I've never read them.
1019
01:00:59,302 --> 01:01:00,438
- Really?
- No.
1020
01:01:00,538 --> 01:01:02,364
I'm not a lawyer.
What would I know?
1021
01:01:09,364 --> 01:01:12,749
I've never seen so much
misinformation communicated
1022
01:01:12,849 --> 01:01:18,309
about a place than was the case
about Guantanamo bay, Cuba.
1023
01:01:21,309 --> 01:01:25,162
This prison was
exceedingly well-run,
1024
01:01:25,262 --> 01:01:26,997
yet the impression that's left
1025
01:01:27,970 --> 01:01:29,834
is that it was a terrible place,
1026
01:01:29,934 --> 01:01:33,700
and people were tortured,
and people were abused.
1027
01:01:33,170 --> 01:01:34,838
Prisons aren't pretty places,
1028
01:01:34,938 --> 01:01:37,742
but that prison
is probably as well-run
1029
01:01:37,842 --> 01:01:39,398
as any prison
on the face of the earth.
1030
01:01:43,398 --> 01:01:47,985
If you go and ask somebody
in a big audience,
1031
01:01:48,850 --> 01:01:50,540
"how many people do you think
were waterboarded
1032
01:01:50,154 --> 01:01:52,289
at Guantanamo?"
1033
01:01:52,389 --> 01:01:54,892
And people stick their hands up,
and someone will say,
1034
01:01:54,992 --> 01:01:56,260
"well, hundreds."
1035
01:01:56,360 --> 01:01:58,329
The answer is,
"nobody."
1036
01:01:58,429 --> 01:02:01,999
Zero were waterboarded
at Guantanamo.
1037
01:02:02,990 --> 01:02:04,802
The military
never waterboarded anybody
1038
01:02:04,902 --> 01:02:06,137
in an interrogation.
1039
01:02:06,237 --> 01:02:09,407
The CIA waterboarded,
as I understand it,
1040
01:02:09,507 --> 01:02:11,175
three people.
1041
01:02:11,275 --> 01:02:13,478
But it wasn't at Guantanamo,
and it wasn't done
1042
01:02:13,578 --> 01:02:16,914
by the United States
department of defense.
1043
01:02:17,140 --> 01:02:18,849
Al Qahtani
was never waterboarded?
1044
01:02:18,949 --> 01:02:19,949
No.
1045
01:02:20,918 --> 01:02:22,220
Now, were there some things done
1046
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:24,188
that shouldn't have been done
at Guantanamo?
1047
01:02:24,288 --> 01:02:25,288
You bet.
1048
01:02:47,161 --> 01:02:48,512
When someone looked
like they were
1049
01:02:48,612 --> 01:02:50,347
a very high-value detainee,
1050
01:02:50,447 --> 01:02:52,383
the department of defense
didn't deal with them.
1051
01:02:52,483 --> 01:02:55,853
The central intelligence agency
did, and properly so.
1052
01:02:55,953 --> 01:02:59,157
In the case of Qahtani,
1053
01:02:59,257 --> 01:03:01,250
he was a high-value detainee,
1054
01:03:01,125 --> 01:03:05,162
and for some reason,
he wasn't transferred.
1055
01:03:05,262 --> 01:03:07,231
Someone junior
in the chain of command
1056
01:03:07,331 --> 01:03:10,834
decided that he was probably
the 20th hijacker.
1057
01:03:10,934 --> 01:03:13,700
General hill wrote a memo.
1058
01:03:13,170 --> 01:03:16,407
"There are three categories
of interrogation techniques
1059
01:03:16,507 --> 01:03:19,276
that we would like you
to consider for approval."
1060
01:03:19,376 --> 01:03:21,813
How unusual were
these techniques?
1061
01:03:21,913 --> 01:03:23,280
Oh, they ran the gamut.
1062
01:03:23,380 --> 01:03:25,516
One of the techniques
recommended was waterboarding,
1063
01:03:25,616 --> 01:03:28,151
which I rejected.
1064
01:03:28,251 --> 01:03:31,488
Others would be,
"yelling at the detainee,
1065
01:03:31,588 --> 01:03:32,990
techniques of deception,
1066
01:03:33,900 --> 01:03:34,551
where you'd use
multiple interrogator...
1067
01:03:34,651 --> 01:03:36,120
interviewer may identify himself
1068
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:38,262
as a citizen of a foreign...
1069
01:03:38,362 --> 01:03:40,630
with a reputation
for harsh treatment...
1070
01:03:40,163 --> 01:03:41,298
category II techniques...
1071
01:03:41,398 --> 01:03:42,867
stress positions, like standing,
1072
01:03:42,967 --> 01:03:44,168
for a maximum of four hours.
1073
01:03:44,268 --> 01:03:45,540
Falsified documents
or reports...
1074
01:03:46,210 --> 01:03:47,900
the use of isolation
facility for up to 30 days.
1075
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:49,606
Deprivation of light
and auditory stimuli.
1076
01:03:49,706 --> 01:03:51,142
Hood placed over his head
1077
01:03:51,242 --> 01:03:52,843
during transportation
and questioning.
1078
01:03:52,943 --> 01:03:54,445
20 hour interrogations.
1079
01:03:54,545 --> 01:03:56,686
Removal of all comfort items,
including religious items.
1080
01:03:56,786 --> 01:03:59,383
Removal of clothing. Forced
grooming, shaving of facial hair.
1081
01:03:59,483 --> 01:04:02,190
Detainee individual phobias,
such fear of dogs,
1082
01:04:02,119 --> 01:04:03,354
to induce stress.
1083
01:04:03,454 --> 01:04:05,523
Category III techniques.
Use of non...
1084
01:04:05,623 --> 01:04:09,994
physical contact such as
grabbing and light pushing."
1085
01:04:10,940 --> 01:04:11,516
I think that's all.
1086
01:04:14,516 --> 01:04:18,956
Good grief,
that's a pile of stuff.
1087
01:04:20,956 --> 01:04:24,175
Jim Haynes, the general counsel,
1088
01:04:24,275 --> 01:04:26,409
sent it to me with a cover memo.
1089
01:04:26,509 --> 01:04:28,646
"I recommend that you approve
most of the things
1090
01:04:28,746 --> 01:04:31,282
in category I, if not all,
1091
01:04:31,382 --> 01:04:33,617
most of the things
in category II, if not all,
1092
01:04:33,717 --> 01:04:36,454
and one or two or three
of the things in category III.
1093
01:04:36,554 --> 01:04:38,555
But disapprove the others."
1094
01:04:38,655 --> 01:04:41,525
I remember one of the things
required that
1095
01:04:41,625 --> 01:04:44,561
he'd stand for three or four,
five, six hours.
1096
01:04:44,661 --> 01:04:47,398
When I approved it,
I wrote down that, you know,
1097
01:04:47,498 --> 01:04:49,499
I stand for eight or ten
hours a day.
1098
01:04:49,599 --> 01:04:51,390
I forget what I said,
but something like that.
1099
01:04:54,188 --> 01:04:56,307
Needless to say,
I did not intend
1100
01:04:56,407 --> 01:04:59,331
that my memo would then be sent
back down the chain of command.
1101
01:05:02,331 --> 01:05:06,584
In the case of Qahtani,
1102
01:05:06,684 --> 01:05:08,552
some of the things
that were done to him
1103
01:05:08,652 --> 01:05:10,175
were not approved.
1104
01:05:14,175 --> 01:05:16,660
And the interrogation plan
1105
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:19,162
involving the duration
and the combination
1106
01:05:19,262 --> 01:05:23,456
of the techniques
was not proper.
1107
01:05:27,456 --> 01:05:29,606
Up came a concern expressed
to the general counsel.
1108
01:05:29,706 --> 01:05:31,972
"We hear some of these things
are being done to this fellow
1109
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:34,445
that aren't approved
or aren't proper
1110
01:05:34,545 --> 01:05:35,947
in the interrogation plan."
1111
01:05:36,470 --> 01:05:37,180
And he came in and told me,
1112
01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:40,840
and I immediately
rescinded that memo.
1113
01:05:40,184 --> 01:05:42,353
Some weeks later, we reissued
1114
01:05:42,453 --> 01:05:45,121
the enhanced
interrogation techniques.
1115
01:05:45,221 --> 01:05:47,724
There was criticism
from some of the military people
1116
01:05:47,824 --> 01:05:50,695
in the chain
that by suspending them
1117
01:05:50,795 --> 01:05:52,229
for a period of weeks,
1118
01:05:52,329 --> 01:05:55,222
we were putting at risk
the American people.
1119
01:06:00,222 --> 01:06:05,175
How do you know
when you're going too far?
1120
01:06:05,275 --> 01:06:08,278
You can't know with certainty.
1121
01:06:08,378 --> 01:06:11,503
All the easy decisions
are made down below.
1122
01:06:15,503 --> 01:06:17,287
When you say,
"how can you know?"
1123
01:06:17,387 --> 01:06:19,490
The answer is,
"you can't."
1124
01:06:19,590 --> 01:06:23,561
Wouldn't it be wonderful
if we could see around corners,
1125
01:06:23,661 --> 01:06:25,595
have our imaginations anticipate
1126
01:06:25,695 --> 01:06:27,999
every conceivable thing
that could happen and then,
1127
01:06:28,990 --> 01:06:30,267
from that full array
and spectrum,
1128
01:06:30,367 --> 01:06:33,795
pick out the ones
that will happen?
1129
01:06:56,677 --> 01:06:58,528
Is there any
evidence to indicate
1130
01:06:58,628 --> 01:07:03,200
that Iraq has attempted to
or is willing to supply
1131
01:07:03,300 --> 01:07:05,535
terrorists with weapons
of mass destruction?
1132
01:07:05,635 --> 01:07:08,572
As we know,
there are known knowns.
1133
01:07:08,672 --> 01:07:10,608
There are things
we know we know.
1134
01:07:10,708 --> 01:07:12,709
We also know
there are known unknowns.
1135
01:07:12,809 --> 01:07:14,677
That is to say,
we know there's some things
1136
01:07:14,777 --> 01:07:16,447
we do not know.
1137
01:07:16,547 --> 01:07:18,782
But there are also
unknown unknowns,
1138
01:07:18,882 --> 01:07:21,217
the ones we don't know
we don't know.
1139
01:07:21,317 --> 01:07:24,488
We just want to know,
are you aware of any evidence,
1140
01:07:24,588 --> 01:07:26,657
because that would increase
our level of belief
1141
01:07:26,757 --> 01:07:28,793
from faith to something
that would be...
1142
01:07:28,893 --> 01:07:31,780
- Yeah...
- Based on evidence.
1143
01:07:32,780 --> 01:07:36,990
"Subject: To discuss with P.,"
1144
01:07:36,199 --> 01:07:40,671
meaning the president
of the United States.
1145
01:07:40,771 --> 01:07:43,106
"The absence of evidence
1146
01:07:43,206 --> 01:07:45,132
is not evidence of absence."
1147
01:07:50,132 --> 01:07:54,840
When you say,
"the absence of evidence
1148
01:07:54,184 --> 01:07:57,521
is not evidence of absence,"
what you're saying
1149
01:07:57,621 --> 01:08:02,920
is that there is an absence
of evidence about something,
1150
01:08:02,192 --> 01:08:07,664
but you ought not to say
that therefore that is proof
1151
01:08:07,764 --> 01:08:09,733
that something doesn't exist.
1152
01:08:09,833 --> 01:08:13,637
It's an easy thing to go
from the first part of that
1153
01:08:13,737 --> 01:08:15,438
in the wrong direction and say,
1154
01:08:15,538 --> 01:08:21,178
"well, the absence of evidence
means it isn't there."
1155
01:08:21,278 --> 01:08:23,179
If an inspection team
goes in now
1156
01:08:23,279 --> 01:08:24,714
and finds nothing because
1157
01:08:24,814 --> 01:08:26,616
perhaps Iraq is very good
at hiding it
1158
01:08:26,716 --> 01:08:28,885
or perhaps they have nothing...
1159
01:08:28,985 --> 01:08:30,854
but you all are of the belief
that they have it...
1160
01:08:30,954 --> 01:08:33,790
if they find nothing, does it
make your job more difficult
1161
01:08:33,890 --> 01:08:37,128
in trying to assemble
an international coalition
1162
01:08:37,228 --> 01:08:40,216
to disarm him by other means?
1163
01:08:42,216 --> 01:08:44,168
Goodness gracious,
that is kind of like
1164
01:08:44,268 --> 01:08:47,403
looking down the road
for every conceivable pothole
1165
01:08:47,503 --> 01:08:49,906
you can find
and then driving into it.
1166
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:52,476
I just don't...
I don't get up in the morning
1167
01:08:52,576 --> 01:08:54,611
and ask myself that.
1168
01:08:54,711 --> 01:08:55,711
The...
1169
01:08:56,546 --> 01:08:58,915
we know they have
weapons of mass destruction.
1170
01:08:59,150 --> 01:09:00,851
We know
they have active programs.
1171
01:09:00,951 --> 01:09:05,156
There isn't any debate about it.
1172
01:09:05,256 --> 01:09:09,492
It was thought to be
the best intelligence available.
1173
01:09:09,592 --> 01:09:10,728
How do you describe it
1174
01:09:10,828 --> 01:09:13,597
when it turns out
to be not accurate?
1175
01:09:13,697 --> 01:09:16,299
Do you describe that
as a failure of intelligence?
1176
01:09:16,399 --> 01:09:20,670
I suppose some can,
not unfairly, suggest that.
1177
01:09:20,770 --> 01:09:23,506
Saddam Hussein
may have been fearful
1178
01:09:23,606 --> 01:09:26,876
that he would be discovered
as having those weapons,
1179
01:09:26,976 --> 01:09:29,179
removed them or destroyed them,
1180
01:09:29,279 --> 01:09:32,916
but not wanted to tell anybody
that he'd done so.
1181
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:36,187
He may have destroyed them,
1182
01:09:36,287 --> 01:09:38,289
unwilling to admit it,
1183
01:09:38,389 --> 01:09:42,759
fearful of being seen as weak.
1184
01:09:42,859 --> 01:09:46,696
Wouldn't it be strange
if he had destroyed his W.M.D.
1185
01:09:46,796 --> 01:09:48,952
And got invaded anyway?
1186
01:09:50,952 --> 01:09:52,942
Of course, I'm not suggesting
that that's the case.
1187
01:09:53,420 --> 01:09:56,206
I honestly do not know
what the case is.
1188
01:09:56,306 --> 01:09:59,843
All I know is that
the intelligence community
1189
01:09:59,943 --> 01:10:04,747
persuaded the president
and secretary Powell.
1190
01:10:04,847 --> 01:10:07,380
He spent days preparing himself
to make his presentation
1191
01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:09,620
to the united nations.
1192
01:10:09,720 --> 01:10:12,322
And he spent years
trying to explain
1193
01:10:12,422 --> 01:10:14,592
why he had done it.
1194
01:10:14,692 --> 01:10:16,393
It's a short sentence.
1195
01:10:16,493 --> 01:10:18,951
The reason he presented it
was 'cause he believed it.
1196
01:10:22,951 --> 01:10:25,603
"October 15, 2001.
1197
01:10:25,703 --> 01:10:28,272
Subject: Definition.
1198
01:10:28,372 --> 01:10:31,800
Please give me
a good definition for terrorism
1199
01:10:31,108 --> 01:10:34,644
and some elaboration as to
what it is and what it isn't."
1200
01:10:34,744 --> 01:10:37,348
"December 28, 2001.
1201
01:10:37,448 --> 01:10:41,751
Subject:
Adopting common terminology.
1202
01:10:41,851 --> 01:10:45,656
I suggest we use
the following terms.
1203
01:10:45,756 --> 01:10:47,424
'Afghan Taliban':
1204
01:10:47,524 --> 01:10:50,460
Afghan officials and fighters
of the former regime."
1205
01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:53,363
"October 31, 2002.
1206
01:10:53,463 --> 01:10:55,633
Subject:
Definition of victory.
1207
01:10:55,733 --> 01:10:57,800
Where is that definition
of victory?"
1208
01:10:57,900 --> 01:11:00,571
"January 6, 2003.
1209
01:11:00,671 --> 01:11:02,673
Subject: Terminology.
1210
01:11:02,773 --> 01:11:04,575
I want to make a list of things
1211
01:11:04,675 --> 01:11:05,909
I've done at the Pentagon,
1212
01:11:06,900 --> 01:11:09,879
like getting rid of words.
1213
01:11:09,979 --> 01:11:13,584
National missile defense,
requirements,
1214
01:11:13,684 --> 01:11:16,887
readiness...
ready for what?"
1215
01:11:16,987 --> 01:11:19,923
"October 1, 2003.
1216
01:11:20,230 --> 01:11:23,994
Subject: Please get me the
Oxford dictionary definition
1217
01:11:24,940 --> 01:11:26,362
of 'several'
and type it up for me.
1218
01:11:26,462 --> 01:11:27,598
Thanks."
1219
01:11:27,698 --> 01:11:29,933
"May 14, 2004.
1220
01:11:30,330 --> 01:11:31,535
Definition.
1221
01:11:31,635 --> 01:11:34,710
Please give me
the dictionary definition
1222
01:11:34,171 --> 01:11:38,280
of 'scapegoat.'
1223
01:11:38,380 --> 01:11:39,380
thanks."
1224
01:11:42,497 --> 01:11:47,840
And where did this term
"shock and awe" come from?
1225
01:11:47,184 --> 01:11:48,552
I don't know.
1226
01:11:48,652 --> 01:11:51,487
Apparently, general Franks
read it.
1227
01:11:51,587 --> 01:11:53,890
He used it.
1228
01:11:53,189 --> 01:11:57,428
It became
part of a press discussion.
1229
01:11:57,528 --> 01:12:00,597
But the idea of shock and awe?
1230
01:12:00,697 --> 01:12:04,190
I've told you all I know
about that phrase.
1231
01:13:09,984 --> 01:13:11,934
I picked up a newspaper today,
1232
01:13:12,340 --> 01:13:13,903
and I couldn't believe it.
1233
01:13:14,300 --> 01:13:18,800
I read eight headlines
that talked about chaos,
1234
01:13:18,108 --> 01:13:20,744
violence, unrest.
1235
01:13:20,844 --> 01:13:22,513
And it just was, "Henny Penny,
1236
01:13:22,613 --> 01:13:23,714
the sky is falling."
1237
01:13:23,814 --> 01:13:25,182
I've never seen
anything like it.
1238
01:13:25,282 --> 01:13:27,651
And here is a country
that's being liberated.
1239
01:13:27,751 --> 01:13:30,586
Here are people
who are going from being
1240
01:13:30,686 --> 01:13:32,540
repressed
and held under the thumb
1241
01:13:32,154 --> 01:13:34,424
of a vicious dictator,
and they're free,
1242
01:13:34,524 --> 01:13:36,626
and all this newspaper could do,
1243
01:13:36,726 --> 01:13:38,562
with 8 or 10 headlines...
1244
01:13:38,662 --> 01:13:39,862
they showed a man bleeding,
1245
01:13:39,962 --> 01:13:42,732
a civilian who they claimed
we had shot.
1246
01:13:42,832 --> 01:13:46,437
One thing after another,
it's just unbelievable
1247
01:13:46,537 --> 01:13:48,705
how people can take that away
1248
01:13:48,805 --> 01:13:51,607
from what is happening
in that country.
1249
01:13:51,707 --> 01:13:54,111
Stuff happens.
1250
01:13:54,211 --> 01:13:56,820
But in terms of what's going on
in that country,
1251
01:13:57,300 --> 01:14:00,451
it is a fundamental
misunderstanding
1252
01:14:00,551 --> 01:14:03,986
to see those images
over and over and over again
1253
01:14:04,860 --> 01:14:05,988
of some boy walking out
with a vase,
1254
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:07,458
and saying, "oh, my goodness.
1255
01:14:07,558 --> 01:14:08,892
You didn't have a plan."
1256
01:14:08,992 --> 01:14:10,590
That's nonsense.
1257
01:14:10,159 --> 01:14:11,628
They know what they're doing,
1258
01:14:11,728 --> 01:14:13,620
and they're doing
a terrific job.
1259
01:14:13,162 --> 01:14:15,131
And it's untidy,
and freedom's untidy,
1260
01:14:15,231 --> 01:14:17,233
and free people
are free to make mistakes
1261
01:14:17,333 --> 01:14:20,360
and commit crimes
and do bad things.
1262
01:14:20,136 --> 01:14:22,606
They're also free
to live their lives
1263
01:14:22,706 --> 01:14:23,941
and do wonderful things.
1264
01:14:24,410 --> 01:14:25,642
And that's
what's gonna happen here.
1265
01:14:25,742 --> 01:14:27,701
Mr. secretary...
1266
01:14:33,701 --> 01:14:36,486
this was another violent
day in the streets of Baghdad.
1267
01:14:36,586 --> 01:14:38,621
One of Washington's
nightmares came true today.
1268
01:14:38,721 --> 01:14:41,191
The bush administration
is admitting it wasn't fully
1269
01:14:41,291 --> 01:14:44,161
prepared for the huge task
of governing post-war Iraq.
1270
01:14:44,261 --> 01:14:46,729
Now troops patrol these
streets knowing that to many,
1271
01:14:46,829 --> 01:14:48,764
they are not liberators,
but occupiers.
1272
01:14:48,864 --> 01:14:50,205
It's a situation
the Pentagon admits
1273
01:14:50,305 --> 01:14:51,701
it failed to anticipate.
1274
01:14:51,801 --> 01:14:53,269
The Pentagon is
scoffing at suggestions
1275
01:14:53,369 --> 01:14:56,625
that an organized guerrilla
resistance is forming.
1276
01:14:57,625 --> 01:15:02,800
"July 23, 2003."
1277
01:15:02,180 --> 01:15:03,914
To general John Abizaid.
1278
01:15:04,140 --> 01:15:07,183
"Subject: Definitions.
1279
01:15:07,283 --> 01:15:12,990
Attached are the definitions
of 'guerilla warfare,'
1280
01:15:13,900 --> 01:15:19,282
'insurgency,'
and 'unconventional warfare.'
1281
01:15:21,282 --> 01:15:24,535
they came from
the Pentagon dictionary.
1282
01:15:24,635 --> 01:15:26,224
Thanks."
1283
01:15:30,224 --> 01:15:32,276
It seemed to me
that there are ways
1284
01:15:32,376 --> 01:15:35,646
you can talk about
what the enemy's doing
1285
01:15:35,746 --> 01:15:38,615
that help the enemy
unintentionally
1286
01:15:38,715 --> 01:15:42,184
and ways you can talk about
what the enemy's doing
1287
01:15:42,284 --> 01:15:43,553
that harm the enemy,
1288
01:15:43,653 --> 01:15:46,689
that make his task
less legitimate,
1289
01:15:46,789 --> 01:15:47,857
more difficult.
1290
01:15:47,957 --> 01:15:49,660
What you're seeing is
1291
01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:53,563
Rumsfeld floundering around,
trying to figure out,
1292
01:15:53,663 --> 01:15:55,310
what do all those words mean?
1293
01:15:55,131 --> 01:15:57,670
What do other people think
they mean?
1294
01:15:57,167 --> 01:15:59,169
What are the best ones to use
1295
01:15:59,269 --> 01:16:02,138
that will benefit
the United States of America?
1296
01:16:02,238 --> 01:16:05,909
One of you suggested
I go to the dictionary.
1297
01:16:06,900 --> 01:16:07,710
I didn't ask this question.
1298
01:16:07,810 --> 01:16:09,646
Yes, but he would have.
1299
01:16:09,746 --> 01:16:11,982
I have since gone
to the dictionary,
1300
01:16:12,820 --> 01:16:14,851
and I have looked up
several things,
1301
01:16:14,951 --> 01:16:16,853
one of which I can't
immediately recapture,
1302
01:16:16,953 --> 01:16:18,854
but one was "guerrilla war."
1303
01:16:18,954 --> 01:16:20,220
Another was "insurgency."
1304
01:16:20,122 --> 01:16:22,625
Another was
"unconventional war."
1305
01:16:22,725 --> 01:16:23,826
Pardon me?
1306
01:16:23,926 --> 01:16:25,112
"Quagmire"?
1307
01:16:26,648 --> 01:16:29,732
No, that's someone
else's business.
1308
01:16:29,832 --> 01:16:31,867
Quagmire's the...
I don't do quagmires.
1309
01:16:31,967 --> 01:16:34,137
As I looked at the dictionary,
1310
01:16:34,237 --> 01:16:36,272
I'm not uncomfortable
with "unconventional,"
1311
01:16:36,372 --> 01:16:38,842
because it is not an army,
and it is not a Navy,
1312
01:16:38,942 --> 01:16:40,677
and it is not an air force.
1313
01:16:40,777 --> 01:16:42,646
But even there,
the dictionary...
1314
01:16:42,746 --> 01:16:43,946
the Pentagon dictionary...
1315
01:16:44,460 --> 01:16:46,100
I haven't looked
in a regular dictionary.
1316
01:16:47,100 --> 01:16:51,254
The Pentagon dictionary does not
even land that one perfectly
1317
01:16:51,354 --> 01:16:52,354
on what's taking place.
1318
01:16:56,344 --> 01:16:57,905
The bush administration has been
1319
01:16:58,110 --> 01:16:59,929
on a stepped-up P.R. Campaign
1320
01:17:00,290 --> 01:17:01,798
to stop the erosion
of support at home
1321
01:17:01,898 --> 01:17:03,634
for the dangerous mission
in Iraq.
1322
01:17:03,734 --> 01:17:05,635
Today, an unprecedented
series of bombings
1323
01:17:05,735 --> 01:17:07,336
left a trail
of death and devastation.
1324
01:17:07,436 --> 01:17:09,740
The concern
that Iraq's reconstruction is,
1325
01:17:09,840 --> 01:17:12,342
in fact, falling well short
of expectations.
1326
01:17:12,442 --> 01:17:14,378
Today in Fallujah,
Iraqi guerrillas
1327
01:17:14,478 --> 01:17:17,214
used a roadside bomb to bring
an American patrol to...
1328
01:17:17,314 --> 01:17:20,349
Briggs accused the Rumsfeld
team of being under-prepared
1329
01:17:20,449 --> 01:17:23,353
for post-war conditions
on the ground and unwilling
1330
01:17:23,453 --> 01:17:25,888
to share decision-making
with other government agencies.
1331
01:17:25,988 --> 01:17:27,991
Acknowledgement
that long-simmering tensions
1332
01:17:28,910 --> 01:17:30,861
over Iraq and its aftermath,
particularly between
1333
01:17:30,961 --> 01:17:32,728
the departments of state
and defense,
1334
01:17:32,828 --> 01:17:34,980
have now reached full boil.
1335
01:17:46,327 --> 01:17:49,379
October of 2003.
1336
01:17:49,479 --> 01:17:52,314
I became worried
that we were having trouble
1337
01:17:52,414 --> 01:17:55,419
measuring progress,
1338
01:17:55,519 --> 01:17:58,775
and I wrote a memo called
"global war on terror."
1339
01:18:01,775 --> 01:18:06,796
"Are we winning or losing
the global war on terror?
1340
01:18:06,896 --> 01:18:10,000
Is D.O.D. Changing
fast enough to deal
1341
01:18:10,100 --> 01:18:14,490
with the new 21st-century
security environment?
1342
01:18:16,490 --> 01:18:20,943
Are the changes we have
and are making too modest
1343
01:18:21,430 --> 01:18:23,199
and incremental?
1344
01:18:26,199 --> 01:18:28,719
My impression is that
we have not yet
1345
01:18:28,819 --> 01:18:31,254
made truly bold moves,
1346
01:18:31,354 --> 01:18:35,357
although we have made many
sensible, logical moves
1347
01:18:35,457 --> 01:18:37,940
in the right direction."
1348
01:18:37,194 --> 01:18:39,140
"But are they enough," I asked.
1349
01:18:40,140 --> 01:18:41,897
"Today we lack metrics to know
1350
01:18:41,997 --> 01:18:45,768
if we are winning or losing
the global war on terror.
1351
01:18:45,868 --> 01:18:50,400
Are we killing or deterring
more terrorists every day
1352
01:18:50,140 --> 01:18:52,843
than the madrassas
and the radical clerics
1353
01:18:52,943 --> 01:18:56,479
are recruiting and deploying
against us?
1354
01:18:56,579 --> 01:18:59,516
It's pretty clear
that the coalition can win
1355
01:18:59,616 --> 01:19:03,419
in Afghanistan and Iraq
1356
01:19:03,519 --> 01:19:06,356
in one way or another,
1357
01:19:06,456 --> 01:19:10,376
but it will be
a long, hard slog."
1358
01:19:25,493 --> 01:19:28,344
It was Christmastime.
1359
01:19:28,444 --> 01:19:34,250
I can recall going up
to the secure phone closet.
1360
01:19:34,350 --> 01:19:36,219
It's in the second floor
of our house,
1361
01:19:36,319 --> 01:19:39,222
not too far from my bedroom.
1362
01:19:39,322 --> 01:19:42,159
What was in there
was a noise system
1363
01:19:42,259 --> 01:19:45,448
that sounded like an ocean wave.
1364
01:19:47,448 --> 01:19:50,901
They had scooped up some people,
1365
01:19:51,100 --> 01:19:53,503
low-level people,
1366
01:19:53,603 --> 01:19:57,840
who might have some reason
to know where he might be.
1367
01:19:57,940 --> 01:20:00,210
He'd been moving
around the country every day,
1368
01:20:00,310 --> 01:20:02,120
sleeping a different place,
1369
01:20:02,112 --> 01:20:05,147
moving around in taxicabs.
1370
01:20:05,247 --> 01:20:08,919
Also moving around
were some body doubles,
1371
01:20:09,190 --> 01:20:12,289
people who looked
exactly like Saddam Hussein,
1372
01:20:12,389 --> 01:20:16,125
indeed, had the same
distinguishing marks
1373
01:20:16,225 --> 01:20:17,494
on their bodies.
1374
01:20:17,594 --> 01:20:20,996
Some low-level individual
said that he believed
1375
01:20:21,960 --> 01:20:23,232
he knew where
Saddam Hussein was.
1376
01:20:23,332 --> 01:20:27,560
They inspected this farm
out in the middle of nowhere.
1377
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:34,143
There was a trapdoor.
1378
01:20:34,243 --> 01:20:36,513
They opened this up.
1379
01:20:36,613 --> 01:20:41,170
Lo and behold, here was
this bedraggled, bearded man
1380
01:20:41,117 --> 01:20:42,206
down in that hole.
1381
01:20:45,206 --> 01:20:50,492
Saddam Hussein clearly
concluded it was all a bluff.
1382
01:20:50,592 --> 01:20:54,164
The United States
was a paper tiger.
1383
01:20:54,264 --> 01:20:56,319
They weren't gonna do anything.
1384
01:20:59,319 --> 01:21:01,237
The first Gulf war
left him feeling
1385
01:21:01,337 --> 01:21:03,173
that no one
was gonna bother him.
1386
01:21:03,273 --> 01:21:05,875
He was the person who prevailed.
1387
01:21:05,975 --> 01:21:09,111
He obviously felt
that he was a survivor.
1388
01:21:09,211 --> 01:21:12,482
And he was, for a while.
1389
01:21:12,582 --> 01:21:16,919
Someone said, "do you want
to go see Saddam Hussein,"
1390
01:21:17,190 --> 01:21:18,530
after he was captured.
1391
01:21:18,153 --> 01:21:19,889
And I said,
"no."
1392
01:21:19,989 --> 01:21:23,547
I said, "I would like
to talk to Tariq Aziz."
1393
01:21:27,547 --> 01:21:31,567
It's a complicated situation
for me.
1394
01:21:31,667 --> 01:21:33,269
As the number two man,
1395
01:21:33,369 --> 01:21:35,237
simultaneously
deputy prime minister
1396
01:21:35,337 --> 01:21:37,406
and foreign minister
for Saddam Hussein,
1397
01:21:37,506 --> 01:21:39,276
and you meet with him,
you come away
1398
01:21:39,376 --> 01:21:43,450
with that he is a perfectly
rational, logical individual.
1399
01:21:43,145 --> 01:21:45,147
I've spent hours and hours
with him.
1400
01:21:45,247 --> 01:21:48,218
You wonder what goes on
in a mind like that.
1401
01:21:48,318 --> 01:21:51,860
I would love to talk
to Tariq Aziz and figure out
1402
01:21:51,186 --> 01:21:52,656
what in the world
they were thinking.
1403
01:21:52,756 --> 01:21:55,224
What else might
the United States have done
1404
01:21:55,324 --> 01:21:56,593
to reach out to them
1405
01:21:56,693 --> 01:21:59,511
and get them
to behave rationally.
1406
01:22:12,592 --> 01:22:15,344
On February 6, 2003,
1407
01:22:15,444 --> 01:22:17,947
to Jim Haynes.
1408
01:22:18,470 --> 01:22:19,648
"Subject: Detainees.
1409
01:22:19,748 --> 01:22:22,384
I am concerned
that the detainee issues
1410
01:22:22,484 --> 01:22:25,600
we were wrestling with
have not been resolved.
1411
01:22:26,600 --> 01:22:27,624
And as far as I can see...
1412
01:22:27,724 --> 01:22:31,594
...it has just
dropped into a black pit.
1413
01:22:31,694 --> 01:22:33,362
We have to get it figured out.
Thanks."
1414
01:22:33,462 --> 01:22:35,165
"January 10, 2003.
1415
01:22:35,265 --> 01:22:36,265
Subject: Detainees.
1416
01:22:37,180 --> 01:22:38,335
I have simply got to know
1417
01:22:38,435 --> 01:22:40,202
when you folks
are going to be prepared
1418
01:22:40,302 --> 01:22:42,604
to brief the White House
on detainees.
1419
01:22:42,704 --> 01:22:45,642
In fact, I don't think
I'll even do it that way.
1420
01:22:45,742 --> 01:22:49,111
Instead, let me just say,
you should be prepared
1421
01:22:49,211 --> 01:22:50,312
to brief the White House..."
1422
01:22:50,412 --> 01:22:51,714
"Subject: The N.S.C."
1423
01:22:51,814 --> 01:22:53,983
"Or the principals committee
on detainees,
1424
01:22:54,830 --> 01:22:57,219
including the most recent
issue that has been raised,
1425
01:22:57,319 --> 01:22:59,321
no later than next Tuesday."
1426
01:22:59,421 --> 01:23:01,570
"January 14.
1427
01:23:01,157 --> 01:23:04,270
I want to get briefed
on the Iraqi detainees fast.
1428
01:23:04,127 --> 01:23:05,394
I'm really worried about it.
1429
01:23:05,494 --> 01:23:08,494
Thanks."
1430
01:23:21,662 --> 01:23:23,580
When the pictures came,
1431
01:23:23,680 --> 01:23:26,616
it had an impact
that was well beyond
1432
01:23:26,716 --> 01:23:29,219
anything that I'd experienced.
1433
01:23:29,319 --> 01:23:31,120
Why do you think
the pictures did it?
1434
01:23:31,220 --> 01:23:35,250
What it showed was people
engaging in acts of abuse
1435
01:23:35,125 --> 01:23:39,182
that were disgusting
and revolting.
1436
01:23:42,182 --> 01:23:46,360
There were pictures
showing that prison guards
1437
01:23:46,136 --> 01:23:47,771
in the midnight shift
1438
01:23:47,871 --> 01:23:50,706
were doing things to prisoners
that didn't kill them,
1439
01:23:50,806 --> 01:23:54,744
that didn't create injuries
that were permanent,
1440
01:23:54,844 --> 01:23:57,246
but they were engaging
in sadistic things,
1441
01:23:57,346 --> 01:24:00,416
and there was nudity involved.
1442
01:24:00,516 --> 01:24:05,388
I knew that it would create
a advantage for the terrorists,
1443
01:24:05,488 --> 01:24:08,900
for Al-Qaeda and for the people
in the insurgency,
1444
01:24:08,190 --> 01:24:09,259
who were out recruiting.
1445
01:24:09,359 --> 01:24:10,727
They could show
that the Americans
1446
01:24:10,827 --> 01:24:12,528
were treating people badly.
1447
01:24:12,628 --> 01:24:14,830
It worked against everything
we were trying to do.
1448
01:24:14,930 --> 01:24:17,366
I walked in
and said to the president,
1449
01:24:17,466 --> 01:24:19,635
"I'm the senior person,
and I believe in accountability.
1450
01:24:19,735 --> 01:24:22,193
Here's my resignation."
1451
01:24:26,193 --> 01:24:27,544
It was in my handwriting.
1452
01:24:27,644 --> 01:24:28,844
I didn't want to dictate it
1453
01:24:28,944 --> 01:24:31,574
or have it typed up by somebody.
1454
01:24:41,574 --> 01:24:43,358
I felt a very strong sense
1455
01:24:43,458 --> 01:24:49,162
that something terrible
had happened on my watch.
1456
01:25:02,162 --> 01:25:05,514
He said, "don, I recognize
how you feel about this,
1457
01:25:05,614 --> 01:25:09,219
but that's not gonna
solve the problem."
1458
01:25:09,319 --> 01:25:13,589
I testified before the house,
testified before the senate,
1459
01:25:13,689 --> 01:25:18,661
tried to figure out
how everything happened.
1460
01:25:18,761 --> 01:25:20,330
When a ship runs aground,
1461
01:25:20,430 --> 01:25:22,598
the captain of the ship's
generally relieved.
1462
01:25:22,698 --> 01:25:24,400
You don't relieve
your presidents,
1463
01:25:24,500 --> 01:25:26,568
and I couldn't find anyone
that I thought
1464
01:25:26,668 --> 01:25:30,906
it would be fair and responsible
to pin the tail on.
1465
01:25:31,600 --> 01:25:34,244
So I sat down and wrote
a second letter of resignation,
1466
01:25:34,344 --> 01:25:36,545
and I still believe to this day
1467
01:25:36,645 --> 01:25:39,682
that I was correct
and it would have been better,
1468
01:25:39,782 --> 01:25:42,285
better for the administration
and the department of defense
1469
01:25:42,385 --> 01:25:43,753
and better for me,
1470
01:25:43,853 --> 01:25:45,455
if the department
could have started fresh
1471
01:25:45,555 --> 01:25:48,625
with someone else
in the leadership position.
1472
01:25:48,725 --> 01:25:50,326
So you wish
it had been accepted?
1473
01:25:50,426 --> 01:25:51,426
Yes.
1474
01:26:12,733 --> 01:26:16,486
There's a claim
that the interrogation rules
1475
01:26:16,586 --> 01:26:18,687
used in Guantanamo
1476
01:26:18,787 --> 01:26:21,900
migrated to Iraq,
1477
01:26:22,900 --> 01:26:27,930
where they led
to incredible abuse.
1478
01:26:28,300 --> 01:26:29,831
The evidence is to the contrary.
1479
01:26:29,931 --> 01:26:31,401
There were 12 investigations
1480
01:26:31,501 --> 01:26:34,370
that looked at these issues,
1481
01:26:34,470 --> 01:26:35,804
some by civilians,
1482
01:26:35,904 --> 01:26:37,906
distinguished people like
Dr. Harold brown
1483
01:26:38,600 --> 01:26:40,777
and Dr. James Schlesinger,
former secretaries of defense,
1484
01:26:40,877 --> 01:26:42,644
others by military officials.
1485
01:26:42,744 --> 01:26:48,218
To suggest that
the procedures from Guantanamo
1486
01:26:48,318 --> 01:26:51,787
migrated over to Iraq
1487
01:26:51,887 --> 01:26:56,858
is to suggest that
the procedures in Guantanamo
1488
01:26:56,958 --> 01:26:58,661
would have encouraged the kind
1489
01:26:58,761 --> 01:27:03,465
of unbelievably bad, illegal,
improper behavior
1490
01:27:03,565 --> 01:27:04,901
that took place at Abu Ghraib,
1491
01:27:05,100 --> 01:27:06,869
and there's nothing
that would have permitted
1492
01:27:06,969 --> 01:27:08,370
anything like that.
1493
01:27:08,470 --> 01:27:10,572
Anyone who reads
the investigative reports
1494
01:27:10,672 --> 01:27:13,430
knows that's not the case.
1495
01:27:16,430 --> 01:27:20,282
This is from
the Schlesinger report.
1496
01:27:20,382 --> 01:27:23,786
"Changes in D.O.D.
Interrogation policies
1497
01:27:23,886 --> 01:27:28,357
between December 2, 2002,
and April 16, 2003,
1498
01:27:28,457 --> 01:27:32,461
were an element contributing
to uncertainties in the field
1499
01:27:32,561 --> 01:27:36,266
as to which techniques
were authorized.
1500
01:27:36,366 --> 01:27:39,369
Although specifically limited
by the secretary of defense
1501
01:27:39,469 --> 01:27:43,272
to Guantanamo, and requiring
his personal approval,
1502
01:27:43,372 --> 01:27:45,575
given in only two cases,
1503
01:27:45,675 --> 01:27:47,186
the augmented techniques
for Guantanamo
1504
01:27:48,280 --> 01:27:50,450
migrated to Afghanistan and Iraq
1505
01:27:50,145 --> 01:27:54,817
where they were neither limited
nor safeguarded."
1506
01:27:54,917 --> 01:27:56,317
Mm-hmm.
1507
01:27:56,418 --> 01:27:59,921
Yeah, I think
that's a fair assessment.
1508
01:28:00,210 --> 01:28:01,421
Mm-hmm.
1509
01:28:06,680 --> 01:28:09,520
Are you saying
stuff just happens?
1510
01:28:13,520 --> 01:28:16,652
Well, we know that
1511
01:28:17,105 --> 01:28:21,443
in every war
there are things that evolve
1512
01:28:21,543 --> 01:28:25,447
that hadn't been planned for
or fully anticipated
1513
01:28:25,547 --> 01:28:29,535
and that things occur
which shouldn't occur.
1514
01:28:59,899 --> 01:29:05,354
Wouldn't it have been
better not to go there at all?
1515
01:29:05,454 --> 01:29:07,650
Well, I guess time will tell.
1516
01:29:17,650 --> 01:29:21,870
Barack Obama opposed
most of the structures
1517
01:29:21,970 --> 01:29:25,842
that president George W. Bush
put in place:
1518
01:29:25,942 --> 01:29:30,379
Guantanamo bay, the concept
of indefinite detention,
1519
01:29:30,479 --> 01:29:33,769
the patriot act,
military commissions.
1520
01:29:35,769 --> 01:29:39,488
Here we are, years later,
1521
01:29:39,588 --> 01:29:41,711
and they're all still there.
1522
01:29:44,711 --> 01:29:48,598
I think that kind of has to
validate, to some extent,
1523
01:29:48,698 --> 01:29:52,561
the decisions that were made
by president George W. Bush.
1524
01:30:01,561 --> 01:30:05,113
We went to Bethesda
and Walter Reed
1525
01:30:05,213 --> 01:30:08,170
a great many times.
1526
01:30:08,117 --> 01:30:11,920
The strength that you felt
from the families
1527
01:30:12,200 --> 01:30:13,522
and the people wounded
1528
01:30:13,622 --> 01:30:18,494
was just absolutely
an inspiration.
1529
01:30:18,594 --> 01:30:20,162
It was an intensive care unit.
1530
01:30:20,262 --> 01:30:22,886
The doctor said,
"this guy's not gonna make it."
1531
01:30:25,886 --> 01:30:29,171
We walked in, met the man,
talked to him,
1532
01:30:29,271 --> 01:30:31,290
talked to the family.
1533
01:30:37,290 --> 01:30:40,683
I don't know what the word is.
1534
01:30:40,783 --> 01:30:43,986
But the family...
the wife said,
1535
01:30:44,860 --> 01:30:46,813
"I know he'll make it."
1536
01:30:52,813 --> 01:30:56,165
I think it was probably
two, three, four weeks later
1537
01:30:56,265 --> 01:30:57,866
I went back, and sure as heck,
1538
01:30:57,966 --> 01:30:59,568
the doctor said he made it.
1539
01:30:59,668 --> 01:31:01,693
Unbelievable.
1540
01:31:06,693 --> 01:31:08,210
So we're
a very fortunate country,
1541
01:31:08,310 --> 01:31:10,146
and the good lord willing,
1542
01:31:10,246 --> 01:31:14,483
we won't have
to be engaged in wars,
1543
01:31:14,583 --> 01:31:16,885
but I'm afraid,
human nature being what it is,
1544
01:31:16,985 --> 01:31:20,700
that we'll have to continue
to ask young men and women
1545
01:31:21,700 --> 01:31:23,659
to come and serve our country,
1546
01:31:23,759 --> 01:31:26,178
and their lives will be at risk.
1547
01:31:48,234 --> 01:31:52,153
When you're in a position
like secretary of defense,
1548
01:31:52,253 --> 01:31:55,625
do you feel that you actually
are in control of history
1549
01:31:55,725 --> 01:31:59,682
or that history
is controlling you?
1550
01:32:02,682 --> 01:32:05,820
Oh, neither.
1551
01:32:05,333 --> 01:32:07,769
Obviously,
you don't control history,
1552
01:32:07,869 --> 01:32:12,292
and you are failing
if history controls you.
1553
01:32:27,673 --> 01:32:29,325
Are you surprised
when you go back
1554
01:32:29,425 --> 01:32:31,326
and read these memos?
1555
01:32:31,426 --> 01:32:33,620
Oh, my goodness, yes.
1556
01:32:33,162 --> 01:32:37,833
I can't believe
some of the things I wrote.
1557
01:32:37,933 --> 01:32:40,694
I don't know where
all those words came from.
1558
01:32:47,694 --> 01:32:52,349
"February 4, 2004.
1559
01:32:52,449 --> 01:32:57,577
Subject: What you know.
1560
01:32:57,677 --> 01:32:59,120
There are knowns knowns.
1561
01:32:59,220 --> 01:33:02,290
There are known unknowns.
1562
01:33:02,390 --> 01:33:06,195
There are unknown unknowns.
1563
01:33:06,295 --> 01:33:11,200
But there are also
unknown knowns.
1564
01:33:11,300 --> 01:33:15,370
That is to say,
things that you think you know
1565
01:33:15,470 --> 01:33:18,694
that it turns out
you did not."
1566
01:33:20,694 --> 01:33:22,344
If you take those words
1567
01:33:22,444 --> 01:33:26,869
and try to connect them
in each way that is possible...
1568
01:33:29,869 --> 01:33:32,287
There was at least
one more combination
1569
01:33:32,387 --> 01:33:33,789
that wasn't there:
1570
01:33:33,889 --> 01:33:38,841
The unknown knowns.
1571
01:33:38,941 --> 01:33:41,696
Things that
you possibly may know
1572
01:33:41,796 --> 01:33:44,000
that you don't know you know.
1573
01:33:44,100 --> 01:33:46,369
But the memo doesn't say that.
1574
01:33:46,469 --> 01:33:51,807
It says we know less,
not more, than we think we do.
1575
01:33:51,907 --> 01:33:53,241
Is that right?
I reversed it?
1576
01:33:53,341 --> 01:33:55,198
Put it up again.
Let me see.
1577
01:33:58,198 --> 01:34:02,250
"There are also unknown knowns.
1578
01:34:02,350 --> 01:34:06,856
That is to say,
things that you think you know
1579
01:34:06,956 --> 01:34:09,258
that it turns out you did not."
1580
01:34:09,358 --> 01:34:11,994
Yeah, I think that memo
is backwards.
1581
01:34:12,940 --> 01:34:18,320
I think that it's closer
to what I said here than that.
1582
01:34:21,320 --> 01:34:23,600
Unknown knowns.
1583
01:34:28,600 --> 01:34:31,730
I think you're probably, Errol,
chasing the wrong rabbit here.
1584
01:34:56,922 --> 01:34:59,308
As ubiquitous
as those suicide bombers
1585
01:34:59,408 --> 01:35:03,144
have become in Iraq, far more
people are now being killed
1586
01:35:03,244 --> 01:35:05,313
by executions
than by those bombings.
1587
01:35:05,413 --> 01:35:07,316
Another 40 bodies today dumped
1588
01:35:07,416 --> 01:35:09,117
on the streets of Baghdad,
tortured.
1589
01:35:09,217 --> 01:35:11,320
But with
an especially deadly October
1590
01:35:11,420 --> 01:35:13,540
and Iraq tipping toward chaos...
1591
01:35:13,154 --> 01:35:16,291
the U.S. is on
the brink of failure in Iraq.
1592
01:35:16,391 --> 01:35:19,728
A parade of generals called
Rumsfeld’s war strategy flawed.
1593
01:35:19,828 --> 01:35:22,363
The democrats are in;
Donald Rumsfeld is out.
1594
01:35:22,463 --> 01:35:25,101
Firing secretary of
defense Donald Rumsfeld
1595
01:35:25,201 --> 01:35:28,614
and replacing him with a veteran
of his father's administration.
1596
01:35:31,447 --> 01:35:34,175
Mr. President,
thank you for your kind words.
1597
01:35:34,684 --> 01:35:38,813
The great respect that I have
for your leadership
1598
01:35:38,974 --> 01:35:44,320
in this little-understood,
unfamiliar war,
1599
01:35:44,420 --> 01:35:47,229
the first war
of the 21st century.
1600
01:35:49,333 --> 01:35:50,526
It is not well known.
1601
01:35:50,626 --> 01:35:52,260
It was not well understood.
1602
01:35:52,360 --> 01:35:55,829
It is complex for people
to comprehend.
1603
01:35:56,110 --> 01:35:58,467
And I know with certainty
that, over time,
1604
01:35:58,567 --> 01:36:04,125
the contributions you've made
will be recorded by history.
1605
01:36:08,394 --> 01:36:09,567
Thank you.
1606
01:36:10,546 --> 01:36:11,546
Mr. secretary.
1607
01:36:14,501 --> 01:36:16,350
This way.
1608
01:36:27,790 --> 01:36:30,125
"December 15, 2006.
1609
01:36:30,399 --> 01:36:32,340
To: Pentagon personnel.
1610
01:36:32,134 --> 01:36:34,710
From: Donald Rumsfeld.
1611
01:36:34,435 --> 01:36:37,187
Subject: 'Snowflakes...
1612
01:36:38,600 --> 01:36:40,465
the blizzard is over.'
1613
01:36:44,864 --> 01:36:46,353
over the past six years,
1614
01:36:46,454 --> 01:36:49,793
thousands of these memos
have fallen,
1615
01:36:51,153 --> 01:36:52,848
sometimes in blizzards,
1616
01:36:53,500 --> 01:36:56,110
and sometimes in cold
and lonely isolation.
1617
01:36:58,453 --> 01:37:00,562
Yet, as surprising
as this may seem
1618
01:37:00,662 --> 01:37:04,462
to those who may have been
buried in the deluge,
1619
01:37:05,818 --> 01:37:07,861
there are many people
in the department
1620
01:37:08,200 --> 01:37:11,580
who have never received
a snowflake.
1621
01:37:11,746 --> 01:37:14,478
This snowflake
is especially for them.
1622
01:37:16,360 --> 01:37:19,147
Its message is, perhaps
typically, to the point.
1623
01:37:19,247 --> 01:37:20,791
Thank you.
1624
01:37:22,733 --> 01:37:24,797
The blizzard is over."
1625
01:37:45,901 --> 01:37:47,695
One last question.
1626
01:37:49,695 --> 01:37:51,890
Why are you doing this?
1627
01:37:52,146 --> 01:37:54,500
Why are you talking to me?
1628
01:37:55,684 --> 01:37:57,758
That is a vicious question.
1629
01:38:00,368 --> 01:38:02,000
I'll be darned if I know.
121863
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