All language subtitles for Epstein.Didnt.Kill.Himself.2024.720p.WEB.H264-DiRT

-Okay.

-Okay.

-Say again.

-This man.

-Yeah. I've heard
the name in Germany. Yeah.

-Uh, I didn't meet him
personally or anything,

but, of course,
I've heard a lot about him.

-Money corruption, scandal.

-He was...

a sexual predator?

-I heard that he,
you know...I don't know.

-Something about his island
and revolving, like, kids.

-Unsavory activities,
to say the least.

-Bad news, basically.

-He was in prison,
and then he died.

A little bit mysterious.
-Terrible.

Did he? Well, yeah.
I mean, I don't think he hung --

I don't think he would
kill himself, that's all.

-I do not think
Jeffrey Epstein killed himself.

-No.

-I -- Do you not believe
he killed himself?

-Nobody thinks that
he committed suicide.

-He was connected to the most
powerful people in the world.

Just kills himself
out of nowhere like that?

-The Clintons.

-People like Bill Clinton,
Bill Gates.

-Prince Andrew.
-Prince Andrew.

-Donald Trump.

-A ton of political figures.

-A lot of celebrities.

-I think that the death
of Jeffrey Epstein

is the biggest conspiracy theory

that literally everyone
holds in common.

-♪ When Jeffrey Epstein died ♪

♪ I was in Times Square ♪

♪ But I hear in the cell ♪

♪ Bill and Hillary were there ♪

-The morning
Jeffrey Epstein died,

it was just everywhere.

-Pedophile and fake
billionaire Jeffrey Epstein

was found dead in his jail cell.

-The disgraced millionaire
financier was being held

without bail on
child sex trafficking charges.

-Outrage grows tonight.

Why wasn't anyone
watching Epstein in jail?

How was he allowed
to take his own life?

-Tonight, Jeffrey Epstein's
attorneys

questioning whether his death
was a suicide,

saying they are not satisfied
with the ruling.

-His death overtook all of
the social media platforms

and the conspiracy theories
were moments behind.

-The three of you told me you
voted for the president in 2016,

your supporters of his.

Why do you like him so much?

And what policies stand out
to you that you support?

-Well, I would say mainly
just the no nonsense policies,

and especially since Jeffrey
Epstein didn't kill himself.

That's awesome. Yeah.

-I believe the phrase
began as a rejoinder

to what happened with Epstein.

But then it became, as a meme,
something very different,

which is your own expression
of being anti-mainstream media.

And I think it's important
that we understand

it wasn't just an indictment
of American media,

it was an indictment of how
the American elite --

left, right or center --

were culpable for this.

-The appeal on both sides
of the political spectrum

was that Jeffrey Epstein
was killed

in order to maintain secrets.

Liberal corners were saying

that there was something
nefarious afoot

with the Trump administration.

Conservative corners
of the internet were linking it

to the so-called Clinton
body count conspiracy theory.

And then there's a third little
camp of conspiracy theory

that the royal family might be
interested in keeping secret,

whatever, things
Jeffrey Epstein might know.

Whichever camp you belong to,

you have this special
understanding that...

he didn't kill himself,
you know the real deal.

He was assassinated.

-And until they release
the flight logs,

you, the mainstream media,

Hollywood, are all
pedophiles to me.

-It's the kind of
conspiracy theory

that is just
so of this moment.

It has this just
very wide-spread, broad appeal.

-But I still stand by
something doesn't fit here.

It just doesn't make sense that
the highest profile prisoner

in America, you know,
someone forgot to guard him.

-I just spent the night
having dinner

with two corrections officials

who know that place
as intimately as I do,

and they can't figure out

how this could possibly
have happened.

-It gets at everything
going on

in American culture
and politics.

I immediately realized

that this was going to be
a conspiracy theory

that was gonna be around
for a very long time.

-Americans don't know
what to believe these days

regarding the death
of pedophile financier

Jeffrey Epstein.

According to a new poll
by Emerson College,

the American people are divided.

-I think that Jeffrey Epstein
conspiracy theories

are so attractive
because there is so much

that truly is hard
to swallow about his death.

There were a lot of things
that are hard to believe.

-There was speculation
that he was on suicide watch

then that he was removed
from suicide watch.

-We have been told
that certainly there

would be cameras.

-It's another development

that sure to drive
conspiracy theories nuts.

-Both cameras trained on the
door of Jeffrey Epstein's cell

did not work that night,
famously.

- The New York Times
is reporting

the two staff members
guarding Epstein's jail unit

fell asleep
and failed to check on him.

-Epstein was also supposed
to be housed with a cellmate

and not left alone.
-This is just

one coincidence too many.

-The immediate reaction was
he didn't kill himself.

I don't even think
it started as a meme.

I think it just started
as a appraisal, as a reaction.

It was certainly
my first reaction.

I mean, I remember turning to
my husband and saying, you know,

"Oh, God,
he didn't kill himself,"

you know, like, come on.

-We didn't get any great

investigative reporting around

what had happened in the jail
that would substantiate,

one way or another, that he had
truly committed suicide.

I do remember watching "CNN,"
"MSNBC," and "Fox News,"

and there was some skepticism,

but online it was
like bizarro world.

In the absence
of objective evidence,

we're left with
what the media told us.

And one set of the media
was telling us to have doubt

and to not trust
what was being said.

-What's going on
behind the scenes

is somebody could sneak
somebody in to kill somebody

if that's what happened.

-You know,
folks want the truth,

and that's an
understandable objective.

So naturally, um,
they're going to try

to make sense of the world
that they live in.

-Fuck, I should have
fucking tented my fingers

the entire time.

-Do you -- Just do it now.
-I can do it. Can I do it now?

-Do whatever you want now.

-Is this good?

Welcome to the TrueAnon podcast,

where we explore the
intersections between the CIA,

global pedophilia cabals,
Jeffrey Epstein,

private islands,
and the Clinton crime family.

-Crooked Hillary, baby.
-Exactly.

Everything
that we talk about here

is, uh, allegedly...

the truth.

True anon is a political
true crime podcast.

-We sometimes call ourselves

and our listeners
little gumshoes.

We are unlicensed
private detectives, right?

-Yeah, we're unlicensed
private detectives.

-There are no raw marks
on the ends...

-Yeah.
-...of the noose.

-No, it...
-This was not ripped.

-No.
-It's like a clean hem.

-Yeah, yeah. Exactly.
-So where the fuck is this from?

-Oh, where's the scissors?

We try to take
in a variety of sources.

Um, you know, some reputable
ones that we trust,

some reputable ones
that we maybe don't trust.

Uh, disreputable ones, gossip.

Basically, anywhere
we can get information,

then try to essentially
figure out

from that what might be true.

-Jeffrey Epstein is
the perfect character

for conspiracy theory.

He is really almost tailor-made.

-I think one of
the big questions

with the Jeffrey Epstein story
is,

how did he get away with
something that he seemed to be

so openly doing for so long,

and not only without
any legal repercussions,

but without even
any social repercussions?

-The Epstein case
is classic tabloid fodder.

I mean, it has everything --
it has spies,

it has the Mafia,
it has sex crimes.

It has the world's most famous
and powerful people.

When we discuss this story,
people are so focused

on how he died

that they don't look as much
at how he lived.

Oh, my God, no.

My name is Julie K. Brown.

I'm an investigative reporter
with the Miami Herald,

and I reopened the Jeffrey
Epstein case in 2016.

Jeffrey Epstein
grew up on Coney Island

and he was a prodigy.

He knew how to pick up music
very well,

he was very good in math.

So he ended up going to
a very prestigious school,

and he ended up
going to college briefly

before dropping out
and getting a job at Dalton,

which is a very elite school
in New York.

We know that at the time
that he was hired, Donald Barr,

the father of the former
attorney general,

William Barr, was the headmaster
at the school.

So we believe
that he hired Jeffrey,

even though Jeffrey really
didn't have the credentials

to teach there,
but Barron was an eccentric.

I mean, he wrote very strange

science fiction books,
for example.

Jeffrey Epstein was very popular
with the students there.

He tried to act like he was
sort of this cool guy.

Went to a couple of the parties

with the students,
apparently.

Epstein really used Dalton

as a way to connect
with other wealthy people,

the parents of the students.

And through
one of these connections,

he met Moe Greenberg,
who worked at Bear Stearns

and eventually offered Jeffrey
a job at Bear Stearns.

He once bragged that he didn't
take anybody as a client

unless they were
supremely wealthy,

like in
the billion dollar range.

You know, it's kind of
mysterious in a way,

because the only client that
we knew he had was Les Wexner,

who was the CEO of The Limited
and Victoria's Secret.

And that's really
the only client.

So it sort of makes you wonder,

you know, how could he have
this much power and influence

with just having one client?

Jeffrey Epstein's initial, uh,
property was in New York,

it was a huge townhouse --
like nine stories --

and he put in security cameras
all over, outside and inside.

In fact, we heard
from a couple of people

that he even had cameras
in the bathroom.

So he had the whole place wired.

And of course,
he had a lot of powerful people

come and go from there.

He also had properties
in New Mexico -- a ranch --

and he had a property
in Palm Beach --

a mansion just off the water.

And he had another property
which was on a remote island

in the Caribbean called
Little Saint James.

-That's where had is, you know,
Island Temple,

which was
a very freakish entity,

allegedly with underground
tunnels and strange symbols.

Totally normal. Everyone --
Everyone's got one of those.

-He would fly his wealthy

and well-connected friends
around the world.

-When Bill Clinton
organized a week long tour

of Africa in 2002,

Jeff gave him a ride
in his personal 727.

And took actors Kevin Spacey and
Chris Tucker along for the trip.

-The Lolita Express
is a really disgusting name

for a private plane
that Jeffrey Epstein owned.

-Both Donald Trump
and Bill Clinton

had flown on the plane.

-Jeffrey Epstein knew how
to cultivate the right people

to get him the connections
that he wanted.

And one of the people
that helped Jeffrey Epstein

in social circles in New York
was Ghislaine Maxwell.

-Ghislaine Maxwell is a woman
from England

whose father was a sort
of Murdochian media magnate.

-Have you yourself ever been
compromised or in a position

where you thought
you were going to be?

-No, I have not
ever been compromised.

But I have,
on two occasions in Moscow,

had my telephone number tapped.

-Robert Maxwell died
under mysterious circumstances.

-The millionaire
newspaper publisher

Robert Maxwell is dead.

He disappeared overboard
from his private yacht

early this morning while
cruising off the Canary Islands.

-Mr. Maxwell had
apparently left

for a few days' holiday
on his yacht last Thursday

for a break away from
the affairs of his media empire

and a row over allegations
which he denied

that he was an agent
of the Israeli secret service.

-Robert Maxwell
was up to a lot of bad things.

There are allegations of arms
trading and money laundering.

-The exact circumstances of
how he died may never be known.

-I can't believe
that Maxwell committed suicide

because he was a fighter.

-Tonight, as the Lady Ghislaine
lay at berth,

the gathering of
Robert Maxwell's family

was completed with the arrival
of the daughter

after whom he had named
his fateful yacht.

-After his death, it was found
that he had raided

all the companies'
pension funds,

so he had kind of left
the family in a lurch

at the time
that he allegedly drowned.

And Jeffrey Epstein
knew her father,

and they had become acquainted.

And at that time,

she started leaning a lot
on Jeffrey Epstein.

-They were an item
for a number of years,

although they seem to have
a sort of open relationship.

And then, later,
they had

a sort of nebulous,
kind of partner,

but also employee/employer
relationship.

She was really Jeffrey Epstein's
sort of entrée

into high society.

-Ghislaine Maxwell
introduced Jeffrey Epstein

to a whole new circle of people,

very powerful people,
political people,

such as Bill Clinton,
Donald Trump.

There were a number
of other billionaires

that he started,
you know, being acquainted with.

And so, you know,
Ghislaine was key to that.

We suspect
that it was Ghislaine Maxwell

who started the whole
pyramid scheme of girls

that he had coming in and out
of his mansion.

When most people think
of Palm Beach,

they think of these beautiful
giant mansions on the water,

very wealthy area,
tree-lined streets.

But a lot of the victims
that he ended up recruiting

were victims
who lived on the other side

of Palm Beach County
in West Palm Beach,

which is quite different
than the mansion on the ocean.

Some of these girls, in fact,
lived in trailer parks.

Some of them
were living out of motels.

You know, he managed to find
the kind of girls that,

you know, if they had
said anything to anybody,

his feeling was nobody
would really believe them

because they were basically,
in his mind, anyway, trash.

These were young girls

that he was inviting
to give him massages.

Some of them had never had
any kind of a sexual experience

at all before.

And when they started recoiling
at what he was doing,

he would just say,
"Well, that's okay.

You don't have to do this
ever again.

Just bring me your friends."

He would pay them $100 to $200

each time
they brought him a friend,

and then he would
pay the friend,

you know, who he molested.

And so he had this
revolving door of young girls

coming in and out of the house.

The Palm Beach Police Department

started investigating tips
that they had received.

One of them involved
a 14-year-old girl

who had said that
she was sexually molested.

They opened an investigation
into, you know,

whether he was
assaulting younger girls

on a regular basis.

It was the same story
from almost every victim.

Initially, the prosecutors
wanted to throw the book at him.

They had at least a dozen
or more victims who they knew

and who said
they would cooperate.

Epstein was hiring all these
high-powered attorneys --

Alan Dershowitz,
Jay Lefkowitz, Kenneth Starr --

people who were well-known
in Washington.

Alex Acosta,
the US prosecutor in Miami,

had also worked

at this same firm

that Jay Lefkowitz
and Kenneth Starr worked at,

which was Kirkland & Ellis.

So these were all

a web of people that knew
each other through legal circles

and were somewhat friendly
with each other.

So he carefully chose
all these people for a reason

and for their connections
and their influence,

and how they were going to help
him get the deal of a lifetime.

Ultimately, they gave it back
to Alex Acosta

and told him,
"This is your baby.

You're going to have to decide

how this
is going to be prosecuted."

And with that,
Alex Acosta decided,

of course, they're not going
to prosecute him federally.

"What we're going to do
is we'll waive this indictment.

We'll waive
these federal charges

as long as he pleads
to this charge in state court."

In mid-2007,

they were going to charge
Jeffrey Epstein with something.

It was just a matter of,

"What are we going to
charge him with?"

They had an indictment
that listed all his crimes,

which they would then show
to Jeffrey Epstein's lawyers.

Jeffrey Epstein's lawyers would
take the -- the indictment

on -- that listed
all the charges,

and they would go, "Nope,

we're not going to
charge him with this. Nope."

They would literally
just cross out.

"We're not going to
plead to this."

So then it would go back
to the prosecutors,

and the prosecutors would send
them another one that said,

"Okay, what about this charge?
What about...?"

I mean, it was almost comical.

Epstein, in essence,
through his lawyers,

started dictating himself

what the terms of the deal was

that he was
going to plead to,

which is unheard of, right?

Who lets a guy
who committed a crime

decide what
he's going to plead to?

And they finally settled
on very weak charges,

which was solicitation
of a minor,

which ended up being a charge

that he would be able to serve
in the county jail

instead of going
to Florida prison,

which would have been
quite different.

-I think, in regards to
Jeffrey Epstein's first arrest,

I think it's a really
good illustration

of how there's at least
a two-tiered system

of justice in the country.

If you have enough money,
if you have enough connections,

if your name's big enough,

and kind of no matter
what you do,

you can slide by
and get a sentence that would

make the most hardened
prison abolitionist blush.

I mean, Jeffrey Epstein
got time off from jail --

like, he only had to spend
some of the day at jail.

And he was actually,
like, you know,

allowed to go to work
in an office building

that the police didn't enter and
just stood outside in front of.

-Well, a Palm Beach
billionaire

is getting his first taste
of freedom in over a year.

-Epstein served 13 months
of an 18-month sentence.

-It speaks to such
larger questions

that people have
about the nature of power,

about the nature of influence,

about how those two things
get wielded behind the scenes.

-After Trump
was elected,

he nominated
Alex Acosta

to be
his labor secretary.

So I thought at the time
that this, you know,

when, in his
confirmation hearing,

they would be grilling him
over this.

-Has a sterling record
of public service

to our state and country --
you'll learn about that today.

-I can tell you that Alex
is a man of character,

a man who takes very seriously
fidelity to the law,

fidelity to the Constitution,

and a man who has
a passion for justice.

-Congratulations, Mr. Acosta,
on your nomination.

As you know, we're in a big,
huge national debate

over what to do
with health care.

-As it turned out,

he was barely asked
any questions about it.

It was like
it was lost to history.

This man who let their predator
off the hook,

you know, with basically
a slap on the wrist,

is now going to be
in charge of an agency

that essentially has oversight

of human-trafficking
and child-labor laws.

-Members will be sub--
may submit...

-I'm Annette Witheridge,
I'm a freelance journalist,

and I worked in New York City,
covering America

for the British newspapers,
mainly like the Daily Mail,

the News of the World,
The Times, The Sun.

You name it --
I worked for it in Britain.

And over the years,

I would be asked to write
stories about Prince Andrew,

I was asked to write stories
about Ghislaine Maxwell,

and then, from there,
I started to write stories

about Jeffrey Epstein.

And, occasionally,
all three characters

would come together
in one story.

So, in 2010, I got a phone call
from the News of the World,

and they said, "Annette,

we understand Prince Andrew's
in -- in New York.

And we don't know where he is.
Can you try and find him?"

And I thought,
well, the best place to look

is Ghislaine Maxwell.

Ghislaine and Andrew
had known each other for,

you know, decades.

So I went
to Ghislaine's house --

no Prince Andrew.

We gave up on that
about 10:00 at night.

And I was thinking, "Where
on earth could Andrew be?"

So then I thought
Jeffrey Epstein.

As I walked towards
Epstein's place,

I suddenly saw, like, men
talking into their cufflinks,

i.e. secret service types.

And of course they all had
British accents.

It was
the Royal Protection squad,

so I then barreled back down
the other end of the road,

called Jae Donnelly,
the photographer,

and said, "Got him."

And we waited, and we waited,
and we waited.

We saw an old man.

and a young woman,
who I can --

thought was perhaps, you know,
this old man's caregiver,

and then was intrigued when they
went into the Epstein house,

and it was Woody Allen
and his wife.

And it's like -- crikey!

You know, it was like --

We'd also discovered by then
we'd run into --

would you believe -- Bill Cosby,

who lived across
the other side of the road?

It was like,
this is one weird road.

We sat there all day
on the Saturday.

No signs of Prince Andrew,
but it was horrific --

the amount of young girls

that were going in and out
of that house.

Sunday morning, we were
back there again at 8:00 a.m.

We managed to move our car

right outside
the Epstein house.

Now, we were not hiding.
You couldn't hide.

I knew there were
security guards outside

for Prince Andrew.

They most certainly knew
I was outside,

and Jeffrey Epstein's people
presumably knew we were outside.

I was sitting
in the passenger seat,

and I had the window
slightly open,

and I heard one of the British
Protection squad officers say,

"What happens
if they go walkabout?"

And literally, seconds later,
the door opened,

and there were
Andrew and Epstein.

I said, "Oh!" And it all
happened in a complete rush.

Jae and I jumped
out of the car,

I jumped into the pa--
into the driver's seat,

and we took off after them.

They turned right
onto 5th Avenue

against the traffic,

so I had to turn left.

Jae just jumped out
with his cameras

and went running after them
into Central Park.

He then, you know,
climbed over a wall

a bit further up, up some rocks,

and took these amazing pictures
of Epstein and Andrew

in deep conversation.

I couldn't believe it when
he showed me these pictures.

They were just perfect.

What on earth was he doing,

staying with Jeffrey Epstein,
who was a convicted pedophile?

It was a jolly good picture,

and it was a story
that wrote itself.

We now know
he was asking Epstein

if he could help with some money
for his ex-wife.

It just seemed strange
'cause it's --

Epstein has a 50-room mansion.

It's the biggest
private residence in Manhattan.

Surely,
there was a room somewhere

they could talk privately.

But, no, they went outside
to talk in the park.

I think it suited Epstein
very much.

Epstein was trying
to rehabilitate himself

after going to prison.

If the Queen's son
can forgive Jeffrey Epstein,

obviously, polite society
in Manhattan can.

-They went to so many parties.

They went to places
like Chelsea Clinton's wedding.

You know, you can see Ghislaine
lurking in the background

like some sort of perverse
"Where's Waldo?" --

you know,
in all of these pictures

of recent world history.

And really,
after his indictment,

it should have been
center stage,

but, instead, he was just
reintegrated into high society.

-The scheme that Jeffrey had

and, you -- you know,
with all the people that he knew

and the fact that he always had
these young women and girls

around him,
you know, constantly --

it was almost as if everybody
knew about it and accepted.

-So one of the dinners,
there was Katie Couric,

who, at that point, was one
of the top TV news anchors.

-And Katie, Emily S.
wants to know the strangest part

of going to a dinner party
at Jeffrey Epstein's house.

-Yeah, I know.
-Oh, that's -- Wow.

-So, that's --
that's a long story --

that's in my book.
Yeah.

-George Stephanopoulos,
another top TV news anchor.

Chelsea Handler,
very famous comedian.

Woody Allen -- people like that.

It ultimately leaked out

that these people
had all been entertained

with Prince Andrew
at Epstein's house.

I think it probably leaked out

because Jeffrey Epstein and
Ghislaine wanted it to leak out.

-I don't think the general
public really was aware of him,

but everybody
in the journalism world

knew about Jeffrey Epstein,

and his story
wasn't a new story.

There were pieces of it
that were covered extensively

throughout the past decade.

-I think most of the coverage
was sort of like --

it was very tabloid,

whether it was on, like,
Gawker or Jezebel,

but even earlier
than that,

in the Post.

-There's a template

that the news
media follows,

you know, where they present him
as a philanthropist,

as a Gatsby-like figure,

as this kind of
mysterious billionaire,

and no one knows quite
where he gets his money,

but he's
so much fun.

-I think the media
failed to cover

much of the Jeffrey Epstein case
from the beginning

and covered up, either through
omission or purposefully,

a lot of his crimes.

-The Amy Robach thing
with Epstein, right?

You know, where her interviews
with Epstein victims

didn't get published.

-I've had the story
for three years.

Then the Palace found out

that we had her whole
allegations about Prince Andrew

and threatened us
a million different ways.

-Vicky Ward is one
of the reporters.

She worked for
Vanity Fair,

who talked about how
her Epstein piece --

was either
heavily censored,

or it was killed.

-He and Graydon Carter,
Vanity Fair editor,

had a private conversation,

after which the --
the -- the women

were removed from the story.

-A lot of times, it wasn't him

silencing the journalists,

for example,
it was their editors.

So maybe the question is,
why were journalists' editors

and then their publishers
silencing their journalists

from --
from writing pieces about him?

That seems to be
a bigger question.

And I think
if someone looked into that

and got those answers,
that would maybe tell us

more about
how Jeffrey Epstein operated.

-I think it's disgusting
that they decided

to just sit on that information,
which they had all of this time.

It's immoral on a human level,
but it also, you know,

stopped the story, I think,

from taking on the kind of life
that it should have.

-So, the picture was taken
the second weekend of December.

We assumed it would run
straightaway.

It didn't, and it was like --
a bit disappointed

'cause it was an easy,
easy story to get in the paper.

Anyway, it didn't run
the next week,

and it didn't run the next week.

And it was like, what?

Christmas came and went.

It finally ran in February,
the last week of February 2011,

so a good six weeks later.

I think there was some pressure

from the Palace on the editors
of the News of the World

to not run the picture.

I don't know that for a fact
because I wasn't there,

but it just seemed so strange.

It was several weeks
before the story ran.

It didn't even run
on the front page.

And I think
it was something like,

"The Prince & the Paedophile."

What we didn't know
then was that another reporter

from another newspaper,

Sharon Churcher
of the Mail on Sunday,

had spent two years
tracking down Virginia Roberts.

Virginia Roberts was
one of the Epstein girls

who had actually launched
legal action against him.

Sharon, who's very tenacious,

eventually tracked down Virginia
to Australia,

where she's married,
she has children.

And Virginia, at that point,
did not want to talk.

When Virginia discovered
there was a picture

of Andrew and Epstein together,
she was so furious,

she made the call
to the Mail on Sunday

and said,
"Okay, I'm ready to talk now."

And then spoke of her
relationship with Prince Andrew.

And, you know,
obviously the allegations

were that she had been,
you know,

sex-trafficked to Britain,

made to sleep with Prince Andrew
at Ghislaine Maxwell's house,

and she had the photographs
to prove it.

There's a picture of Andrew with
his arm literally on her waist.

She was very young.
She was 17 at the time.

Ghislaine Maxwell is laughing
in the background.

-When you find out
somebody is a central figure

in a global
child-trafficking/rape network,

you of course wonder
what else they're capable of.

You know, this network appears
to have been engaged

in mass blackmailing
of powerful officials.

How they blackmailed people
is the question

that everybody wants to know.

Epstein was after power
and control,

and what I would like to know --

Because I don't think Epstein
was the mastermind of this.

I think he was working
kind of as a mercenary

for a number
of powerful entities.

I think various governments

were using the information
that he found.

You know, he was someone
who could sell them

blackmail material and make an
enormous amount of money.

Many people know about
Epstein's black book,

which was unearthed
by Nick Bryant.

-The so-called black book
is not a black book.

It really is a phone
kind of directory.

And it was a list
of all of Epstein's contacts.

There were some famous
people on there.

There were a lot
of phone numbers on there

for Donald Trump.

-Alex Acosta had said
straight out, you know,

"He belongs to intelligence,"
without specifying

to whose intelligence
Epstein belonged.

So, as for how the blackmail
operation works,

you know, I think
what most people assume

is that these individuals
who have been accused of rape

did rape underage girls,
were likely filmed doing

so without their knowledge.

-Housekeepers at his properties
said he had --

every room was taped,
wired for sound.

There were video cameras
everywhere.

In other words, if somebody
like Prince Andrew

happened to be sleeping
with Virginia Roberts,

then, somewhere,
it would be on camera.

It would have been
secretly recorded.

-You know, having that
kind of material

can allow you to control
a person a great deal,

because, you know,
this is the universal taboo.

You know, people do not accept
child abuse and child rape.

-And, yet, after all the
police raids of his properties

and all the people
who were presumably coming

in and out
of those properties,

none of those tapes
have appeared anywhere.

That, to me, is one of
the biggest mysteries,

is where are those tapes?

- Save our children!
- Save our children!

-Epstein did not kill himself.

-Epstein's death couldn't
have happened at a crazier time

unless it was
about a year later.

I think if it had happened
in, like, summer of 2020,

the world might have exploded.

There was really heightened
tensions, especially in 2019.

You know, you had years
of kind of conspiracy theories,

both on the right wing
with QAnon stuff,

and then a lot of Democrats
with, like, the Russiagate

and all this, like, you know,
"Trump is a secret agent."

It was large swaths
of our country

that had kind of
lost their shit.

And in the midst of
all of this comes, like,

this person whose fingerprints
are on really, like,

major events
and people and institutions

in the past, you know,
30, 40 years.

-Our country and our elites
are living literally

using the blood of children
to fuel their fire,

their everything.

-Elite circles,
access to power, money,

bad deeds involving sex crimes.

His biography sort of hit
on a lot of the sorts of things

that conspiracy theories
need to thrive.

-A conspiracy is a plot
by usually a group of

wealthy or powerful figures
to carry out

an act against the public good
without the public's knowledge.

The United States is no stranger
to conspiracy culture,

because we have had a large
number of actual conspiracies --

Watergate, Iran-Contra,
9/11, January 6th.

When the pieces of the puzzle
are missing,

people will attempt to put them
together on their own,

which is then referred to,
in a pejorative way,

as a conspiracy theory.

And I don't think that there's
any shame in having a theory

about a conspiracy if you
are pursuing it in good faith

and if you are doing
so with evidence and facts.

Where it becomes a problem

is when you see people like,
for example,

Alex Jones using what I call
weaponized conspiracy theories,

where they were putting forth
propaganda and threats and lies,

and they're doing it under this
veneer of conspiracy theory.

-The story that's been the
biggest thing on the Internet

is a rabbit hole
that is horrifying to go down.

I've covered Pizzagate.
We have covered it.

We are covering it.

And all I know is God help us.
We're in the hands of pure evil.

-Over the years,
there became this idea

that in the basement
of Comet Ping Pong Pizza

was a sadistic dungeon
frequented by Hillary Clinton

and the Democrats

who, you know,
would torture children

and harvest their hormones.

Children are a very particular
target because children

are something that
many of us know are defenseless.

Many people from the Internet
are showing up

and taking pictures,
and one man decides

to show up with a gun.

-Fake news, real gunfire.

A North Carolina man
arrested in

a D.C. pizza shop after
brandishing a gun,

telling police he was there to

investigate a conspiracy
theory called Pizzagate.

-It discharges while
he's in the restaurant,

and he's saying,
"Show me the basement."

And there is no basement.

And so he had become
fully deluded

that he himself
could rescue these children.

-Save our children!

-QAnon takes on a very similar
set of criteria around, again,

"It's the Democrats again.

They're harming children."

-We are Q!

-When I was looking at
the discourse around Epstein,

it really fit into
this conspiracy position

of QAnon folks
that we finally had the proof

that the Democrats
were pedophiles and Satanists.

And what was interesting
about it, though, to me,

is how easy it was for them
to deflect Trump

and say, "Well, Trump was there
too, but he wasn't doing this.

But Bill Clinton --
he's the real monster."

-They don't talk about
how Trump was accused of rape

by a 13-year-old girl,

by a woman who was stolen,
procured by Epstein,

and forced into sexual slavery
when she was 13.

But they bring up that
Bill Clinton went on

Epstein's plane.

-Flight logs put Bill Clinton on
pedophile billionaire's sex jet.

-Look, what we've heard about
in this Epstein case

are Democrats.

We hear about Bill Clinton.

Everybody says, "Oh, no,
Bill was never on the plane,"

except he's on
the manifest 26 times.

-The truth of this story
is the sexual abuse

doesn't discriminate
based on political party.

There were people on both sides,
on all sides, really,

of the political spectrum
who were connected to this

and who were involved in this.

This was about power.

-The primary thing about
Jeffrey Epstein and his case

is that he was guilty of doing

exactly what so many
of these conspiracy theories

say wealthy, elite people do,

which is engaging in sex
with underage people.

But he was not a sort of major,
you know, cultural icon.

But then, with those
Miami Herald stories,

he just sort of blew up.

-I felt that, for too long,
it hadn't --

Nobody had dug into it the way
I thought that perhaps I could.

When I first pitched
the story to my editor,

I said, "I'm going to tell
the story of the women.

Their story hasn't
really been told."

And he realized, you know,
to his credit,

that that was something
that was worth looking into.

But, still, you know,
it wasn't something

that he looked at as a project.

It was going to be, like,
a quick-hit kind of story

where we would find
a couple of the victims,

they would say, you know,
"This is horrible,"

and that would be
the end of the story.

But as I dug into it,
I knew that there was

a much more powerful story.

I came to realize that
there were a lot of people

that didn't want to
talk about it

and that there were
a number of other people

who were involved in the case

that just never spoke
to the media before.

And I felt like there
wasn't any coverage

of exactly how this decision
to give him this sweetheart deal

affected the girls
at the time who were,

you know,
sexually assaulted by him

and how it affected their lives.

Nobody had ever
really looked at that.

For one thing, we didn't know
who the victims were

because they were all listed
as Jane Does

in all the court documents.

So part of what I set out to do

was to find out
who all these girls were.

And that was probably
the most time-consuming part

of the project.

I started the project before
any of the MeToo movement

was even in existence,

but by the time
my project published,

we had already had
the Harvey Weinstein case.

We had already had
the Larry Nassar case.

There are a lot of similarities
with other cases

that we know about now,

where the predators would not
only choose victims

that he felt were vulnerable

and victims that perhaps
the media wouldn't believe

and try to even
disparage their character

and their credibility,
but he would also make sure that

the publication knew that
they better, you know,

dot their, you know,
I's and cross their T's,

because he was standing right by
with a lawyer to sue them.

And so I was quite mindful
of this when I was working on

the project at the Miami Herald.

The day that the story came out
was a big relief.

You know, I thought,
"Okay, that's it.

I can go home,
finally get some sleep."

And turned off my computer,
and I thought, "That's it."

I could see on the screen
in the newsroom

where we list our stories
and which stories are doing well

and which stories
are sort of at the bottom,

and my story had been
at the bottom.

And then, all of a sudden,
someone in the newsroom said,

"You better look at this,"
because, sure enough,

the board went all the way
to the top,

and it was just going crazy.

So they said, "You better
turn on your computer."

And I turned it on.

I was getting all these
followers on Twitter.

I had just opened
my Twitter account.

All of a sudden,
I had thousands of followers,

and my phone
was ringing off the hook.

-And now to that bombshell
report shining new light

on a controversial plea deal.

-This is remarkable new
reporting from Julie K. Brown.

-He committed these
alleged crimes many years ago,

but Herald reporter
Julie K. Brown

brought this back, brought this
back to the forefront

by interviewing many
of the alleged victims.

-Several telling their stories
publicly for the first time.

One tells the Herald,
this is about justice

not just for them, but for
"other victims who aren't

Olympic athletes
or Hollywood stars."

-What was surprising
in those pieces

wasn't so much the details
as it was

that someone was actually
investigating it,

someone at least caring to,

you know, speak
for all of these young girls.

-I had to try to get people
to trust me to talk to me,

and many of those people
hadn't talked before

because they were afraid that,
quite frankly,

newspaper
wouldn't print the story.

They felt that --
after all these years,

that Mr. Epstein and others
had quieted this story,

you know, had successfully
kept it secret.

I heard from the victims
that were in the piece.

They all called me, you know,
crying and saying, "Thank you."

You know, it was
a very emotional time,

because we had worked
so hard on it.

-After the Miami Herald
revisited the Epstein case,

Jeffrey Epstein
sort of re-entered

the social consciousness,
political consciousness,

and started showing up
in misinformation online.

-The Jeffrey Epstein case

gave the QAnon movement
some legitimacy.

And the problem is,
they were then

making a lot of other claims,

you know, Trump is the Messiah,
the Democrats eat baby blood

for adrenochrome
that makes them live forever,

you know, all sorts of things
that don't have any

basis in reality,

along with these claims
that do have basis in reality.

And when people see, "Well,
QAnon was ahead of the story,

they actually, you know,
brought this to the fore early,"

they begin to review
those other claims and think,

"Well, maybe that's true, too."

-Jeffrey Epstein
is the grain of truth

that sort of lends
credibility to larger

and more difficult-to-believe
conspiracy theories, like QAnon.

So, he had been sort of
becoming more prevalent

in what we were seeing
going around on social media.

And then, after
he was arrested in July 2019,

that's when, you know,
there were a number of claims

just started kind of going wild.

-My story published the week
after Thanksgiving.

Unbeknownst to me at the time,

in the Southern District
in New York,

couple of prosecutors
who saw the story

went into the U.S. Attorney's
office in New York

and said, "Look at this story.
We need to take up that case."

And then all of a sudden,
on July 6th,

boom, he was in jail.

-A day of reckoning
for a wealthy,

well-connected
alleged child predator.

-Billionaire financier
Jeffrey Epstein

has been arrested.

He was taken into
custody overnight

at a New Jersey airport.

-When federal agents
raided the Manhattan mansion

of financier Jeffrey Epstein,

they say they found hundreds,

if not thousands, of female
nude photographs,

many of the photos allegedly
showing underage girls.

-Today, we announce
the unsealing of

sex-trafficking charges
against Jeffrey Epstein.

And while the charged conduct
is from a number of years ago,

it is still profoundly important
to the many alleged victims,

now young women.

They deserve their day in court.

We are proud to be
standing up for them

by bringing this indictment.

-I started crying, um,

because it put me back into that
place where I didn't want to be,

but it was actually great
to see him in that seat.

-Epstein's arrest
came as a surprise

to many who have
followed his case.

-The whole story changed.

I remember I was sitting
in a deli,

you know, going over my notes,
and somebody said,

"You better look up at the TV,"
and there was Acosta resigning.

-It would be selfish for me
to stay in this position

and continue talking about
a case that's 12 years old

rather than about the amazing
economy we have right now.

And so I submitted
my resignation to the President,

effective seven days from today.

-I never thought, you know, that
that would ever happen.

I never thought that
he would be arrested.

-The surprising part was that
Jeffrey Epstein was arrested,

not that he was being implicated
in all these crimes.

It was like, "Wait a second.
That's not supposed to happen.

You know, people get away
with these things."

Well, and then, you know --
and then we know what happened.

-Jeffrey was sent to the
Metropolitan Correctional Center

in Lower Manhattan.

He was booked, fingerprinted,

put in a jumpsuit
just like any other inmate.

So he started doing exactly
what he did back in 2008,

hiring lawyer after lawyer
for him to go,

you know, out of his cell

and to be sitting
with his lawyers all day.

-I was the first lawyer
on the ground here

in New York to meet Epstein.

I met him in the lawyer
visiting rooms,

and he -- he was disoriented
and disheveled,

having just been removed
from the plane.

I explained who I was.

I've represented
some very high-profile clients

at the trial level
and also, of course, on appeal.

The first really high-profile
case I had was John Gotti Jr.

I handled the post-trial motion

based on jury misconduct
for El Chapo,

represented
Matt Gaetz's campaign

in the recent investigation for
alleged sexual improprieties.

-The Metropolitan Correctional
Center in Lower Manhattan,

this is a --
sort of a notorious prison.

-It's a very barbaric place.
No heat in the winter,

swelteringly hot
in the summer, overcrowded.

Theoretically, almost everybody
in the MCC is --

is presumed innocent
because they're awaiting trial,

and yet the conditions are --

I called it, at one point,
an American gulag.

They're Siberia-like conditions,

and people think
that's hyperbole,

but if you do this job,
you know, it's not hyperbole.

The conditions of confinement
were punitive for people

who hadn't been convicted
of a crime.

-There had been many,

many notorious inmates
in that prison at the time.

Uh, El Chapo was there,
waiting trial on drug charges.

-It's a facility that's filled
with every alleged criminal

under the sun, from the most
violent drug dealers, killers.

So for a guy like Epstein
to be put into that environment,

he's a sitting duck in there
for people

who want to shake him down
or -- or do things to him.

It was the fog of war,
so to speak,

so things were moving quickly.

And you, as the defense lawyer,
are trying to slow things down.

That's what I was doing --
taking a breath,

explaining to him calmly
what was going on.

-Jeffrey Epstein's lawyers
put together this bail package.

They said that they would
put a lot of money down,

that they would agree
that he could be incarcerated

at his home in Manhattan,

and he would hire
his own security team.

He would agree to be
on camera, if necessary.

I mean, it was this whole
elaborate package

in order to convince the judge
to let him out on bail.

And ultimately, what happened
was, the judge rejected it,

in part because
some of the victims

appeared at the bail hearing
and pleaded with the judge,

"Please don't let him out.
I'm afraid for my safety."

Jeffrey Epstein was kept
behind bars at that point.

When he got out of prison
in Palm Beach,

he, you know, had a mural
painted at his home in Manhattan

showing the courtyard area
of the jail.

He told people that the reason
why he had that painted

was to remind him

that he never wanted to go back
to this situation again.

And here he was, you know,
his worst nightmare

was that
this was going to come back

and he was going
to have to finally,

you know, pay the price
for what he had done.

He was put in a cell
with another inmate,

and of all the people that they
could pick for him to room with,

it was this beefy, almost
steroid-looking former cop.

-Nicholas Tartaglione
was a massive,

physical beast of a cop.

He retired in order
to deal drugs,

and that led him
into executing four men

in full view
of his neighbor,

which got him arrested
and thrown into jail.

-Dirty cop Popeye.
-Yeah.

-His muscles are so big.
His head is small.

-Fucking huge.

-Breaking news --
financier Jeffrey Epstein

was taken to the infirmary
after he was found injured

in his New York City jail cell.

Law enforcement
is investigating.

-Shortly after being
roomed together,

Epstein ended up
in the infirmary

with some bruises
around his neck.

-According to a source,

officials believe Epstein
attempted suicide

earlier this week.

He was found
on the floor crying,

semi-lucid, and depressed,
we're told.

-They were
never really clear on it.

They sort of mentioned
that it was a suicide attempt,

but then, when we looked
at the records later,

they then sort of
erased it from his files.

They didn't tell us,
"Well, what is this?

Was --
Did somebody beat him up?

Did the cop beat him up?
Did he try to commit suicide?"

-At first,
was a suicide attempt,

but then he blamed on --

Nicholas Tartaglione
strangling him.

Tartaglione, for his part,

claims that he saved
Jeffrey Epstein's life

and was kind of trying to insert

that into some of his court
stuff to maybe be like,

"Hey, I ain't so bad
a guy after all."

I mean, I can't say one way

or the other
what actually happened.

I mean, a body like that,
you know,

you kind of want to use it,
but...

-He could've used it
for good or evil.

We don't know.
And you don't know

which, I think, is which
in that situation.

-Yeah.
Because is it more moral

to save Jeffrey Epstein
from dying...?

-Or...
-You answer that.

You know what I'm saying?
-Yeah.

We all have to answer that.

-We all have to answer that.

-So, after, you know,
the alleged attempted suicide,

they put him under suicide watch
for only like --

I think it was
less than 24 hours.

When he returned from suicide
watch, he went into the cell,

and it's noted that the inmate
that was supposed to be in there

was not in there.
He had been to court.

And initially, they thought
he was going to come back,

but as it turned out,
the inmate never returned.

So Jeffrey was in that cell
by himself.

If you know the guy
was suicidal at one point,

you'd have to have somebody

assigned there
to keep an eye on him,

knowing that this is your most
notorious prisoner,

yet, you know, we know now
that they failed.

They went into his cell,
and they found him

on the floor of his cell,

allegedly with a piece
of material

that was fashioned into a noose.

This was some of the sheets
that they had,

and he was unconscious.

So they immediately
called for EMTs,

and they transported him
to the hospital,

where he was pronounced dead.

-I won't soon forget the day
that I found out that he died.

It was a Saturday,
and I was doing what I do

on Saturdays,
which is riding my bike.

And on that particular day,
I was going on a group ride.

-I had gone on vacation.
I had finished my book.

There's a chapter
about Epstein in it,

and I was very exhausted
emotionally from doing that.

I needed a break
off of the Internet.

-On August 9th,
the courts began dumping

all these documents
into the court record.

I never even changed
out of my nightclothes.

I spent all day
poring through these documents,

preparing the story
that revealed all these details

about their
sex-trafficking operation.

I was scheduled to do
an interview on NPR,

and I was speaking
to Michael Ryder,

the police chief,
about the interview.

And as I was speaking to him,
my phone buzzed.

-I was in Nebraska, and I
had stopped at this gas station,

and I decided to turn
on my phone

and see if anything
had happened that day.

And, you know, the first thing
I was hit with was on Twitter,

just everyone writing to me,
you know,

that Jeffrey Epstein was dead.

-My phone started blowing up,

and it was reporters
calling me for comments.

I didn't know anything
about what had happened,

so I said, "I can't confirm
or deny anything."

And, uh, we started on the ride.

I was in my own state of shock.

Riding a bike
can be very meditative.

You have muscle memory
in the legs,

and the mind can go elsewhere.

And I started working it over
and working it over in my head.

Took about an hour
for it to hit me,

and I stopped before
the George Washington Bridge,

and I said, "I gotta --
I gotta get off the ride

and -- and see what's going on."

-So the first thing I did
after that is,

I called the victims.

I knew that they were
gonna be just stunned,

at the very least.
I got ahold of a couple of them,

and, you know,
it was a lot of emotion there,

you know, knowing that
they finally were so close

to holding him accountable
and putting him in jail,

and now he was gone.

-And I just remember,
I was in this gas station,

like, all over the ceiling.

It was like the design
of the gas station.

There was this over and over,
it just kept saying,

"You are nowhere,
you are nowhere."

And I was just staring at that
and thinking how he was dead,

and this was the end
of accountability.

This was the end
of all these cases.

This is the end of the pursuit
of justice for the victims.

And now my vacation was over.

And it was just like,
"All right. Well, I'm --

I'm back.
I'm back in America.

I'm back in Jeffrey Epstein's
America."

-I was in bed,
and my girlfriend came in

and woke me up and was like,
"Uh, Jeffrey Epstein's dead."

I immediately called Liz.

-I was like,
"You've got to be kidding me.

Are you serious?
Come on, come on."

-Yeah.
-"Really? Come on."

-Yeah. I was just like, "What?
No way is he dead.

In jail?"

-Well, I think the manner
in which he died was shocking,

but that kind of trickled out
as the days and months

and what ended up
being years went on.

-Oh. Yeah.

Can you see it?

My name is Larry Celona.

I'm a police reporter
for The New York Post.

We were the first ones
to put a story up online

that he had committed suicide.

I've covered every major crime
story in the metropolitan area

for the last 30-plus years.

I mean, literally thousands.

-What a lot of people sort of
saw as a funny coincidence

was the fact
that one of his articles

is featured fairly prominently
in "Eyes Wide Shut," the movie.

-I received a phone call

from somebody
from Warner Bros. asking me

if I'd be interested
in working on a movie project

with Stanley Kubrick.

There's a 10-second scene.

Tom Cruise opens
The New York Post.

He reads a story about someone
dying of a drug overdose

and says, "By Larry Celona."

Some people like to compare

"Eyes Wide Shut"
and Jeffrey Epstein.

The story focuses
on a secret society.

They -- They go to some mansion.

Seems like they're rich,
bored people who are, you know,

looking for different, uh,
ways to have sex.

If you say a single word
to anyone

about what you have seen,

there will be the most
dire consequences for you

and your family.

-Actually,
Stanley Kubrick died

days before
the film was released.

And I was the first person
to write

that Stanley Kubrick died.

I wrote about Stanley Kubrick's,
like, last night,

how he was home
with friends and laughing,

and they were sort of asking,
like, how I could know all this.

When Jeffrey Epstein
committed suicide,

and since I broke that story,
how the same person would write

about Stanley Kubrick's death to
write about Jeffrey Epstein's,

people were questioning
if I was real.

Maybe some society
that's just putting out

stories under my name.

But there was a lot of stuff
on the Internet,

uh, asking those questions.

So, this is the front-page story
from August 11, 2019.

"Suicide scandal."
"Outrage as Jeffrey Epstein

'kills self'
after sex files exposed."

And then, the inside story
is our exclusive that we had.

"Perv Epstein is found hanged."

As soon as
we put the story online,

the number of hits,
it was going through the roof.

I don't remember what
the final number was,

but I think the editor
said the next day,

at that time, it was a record,
uh, number of hits for a story.

There were people that --
that very first day

who did not believe

that Jeffrey Epstein
committed suicide.

-This is a suspected suicide,

and it just smells fishy
to so many people.

-The timing is so suspicious.

-The 66-year-old was supposed
to be checked on

by guards every 30 minutes,
and that did not happen.

-We are now learning of serious
irregularities at this facility

that are deeply concerning

and demand a
thorough investigation.

-They treated it immediately
like a suicide.

Even if it turned out
not to be a crime,

even if it did turn out
to be a suicide,

you still have to gather
the evidence

the same way as you would,

as if it was, you know,
a crime or a suspicious death.

I've seen
a lot of prison deaths.

I've investigated a lot of them,

and I do see a lot of this
in the prisons.

Deaths, they absolutely don't
make sense because, you know,

they're not suicides,
because they are homicides,

because they somehow arranged
for an accident to happen.

So it's not uncommon.

There's no camera, you know?
The guards fell asleep.

If you have an inmate that's
already tried to commit suicide,

would you give them
all those sheets?

There were so many sheets
in there.

All those details just made it

more confusing
or more unbelievable.

It's almost, you know,
pathetic how every single excuse

is always the same
when an inmate dies.

And this was really
no different,

except he happened to be
the most notorious inmate

in the country at that time,
so you would think

that they would come up
with better material.

I think the public
is pretty smart.

You know, they can put
the pieces together, too.

And I think that they looked

at all the things
that I just mentioned,

and they realized that the
whole -- that it was improbable.

-There are still some people
who don't believe

that he committed suicide.

They believe he was killed.
They --

There --
There are a lot of people,

including his brother.

-Epstein's brother, Mark,
is speaking out,

telling the Miami Herald
that his brother was innocent

and did not commit suicide.
Mark Epstein then went on

to reinvigorate
the suicide/murder debate,

saying, "Jeffrey knew a lot of
stuff about a lot of people."

-Mark did not believe
that he committed suicide,

so he hired an outside doctor,
uh, Dr. Michael Baden.

-At the autopsy, on day one,

there were findings that were
unusual for suicidal

hanging and more consistent

with ligature
homicidal strangulation,

because there are multiple --

three fractures
in the hyoid bone,

the thyroid cartilage, that are
very unusual for suicide

and more, uh, indicative
of strangulation --

homicidal strangulation.

-Epstein didn't use
the full weight of his body

to hang himself.

What he did was, he kneeled.

So by kneeling
and pushing himself forward,

the noose would have
gone up like this.

When you hang yourself,

the -- the injury that you will
have to your neck

would be up here like this.

And with Epstein,
it was down here.

You know, as Baden pointed out,

the noose that they found
didn't appear to be cut.

The picture of it almost looks
like they planted it there

because it's like,
perfect, you know?

And if you look at the pictures
of Epstein's body,

there was a lot
of blood around here.

-But Dr. Michael Baden
is known to always

go against
what the original findings

were by the medical examiner.

He's basically --

Seems like he tells the family

or whoever hires him
what they want to hear.

-Look, in my job,
you can get an expert

to say anything
if you pay them.

Baden is a serious guy.
He -- uh, yes, he gets to be --

he gets paid to give opinions as
an expert witness in many cases,

so you have to take that
into consideration.

But he's not gonna put
his reputation out there

and -- and make up some nonsense
to -- just to generate a fee.

He's a --
he's a -- a forensic scientist.

-After the suicide, there was
a -- an internal investigation.

-Bill Barr broke his silence
on Epstein this week.

He called Epstein's death
"a perfect storm of screw-ups."

Interesting.

-It wasn't whether
Jeffrey Epstein killed himself.

It was an investigation
into who did what wrong.

"Why didn't you check on him
every 30 minutes?"

So it was sort of a detailing
of the people at the prison

and the mistakes they made.

As I'm sitting here right now,
we don't know

if the FBI
ever investigated his death.

-They did a
thorough investigation,

but, I mean,
it was pretty basic on --

on the reason why it happened.

Sometimes the obvious answer
is the right answer.

I mean, it could just be
that these guards,

uh, you know, were overworked

and just were taking shortcuts
doing their job.

I mean, that's a lot more
plausible than, you know,

some rich, famous person hiring
somebody to walk into a prison

and choke him without
anybody else seeing him.

I mean, but anything I say is
not going to change their minds.

-A lot of people
who had dismissed

this as the terrain

of "conspiracy theorists"
or crazy people were like,

"Whoa. You know,
this is something real."

If he died in prison with the
security guards asleep

with no video,
given his notoriety,

that clearly
something was at play,

which is something
that I also think is true.

I do not think
he killed himself.

I'm not saying
I know what happened.

No one knows what happens.
That's the entire point of this.

If you don't believe
he killed himself,

you're then left
with the question of,

assuming you believe he's dead,
who killed him?

That is the easy conspiracy
theory to weaponize.

-Then you want somebody
who's gonna get up every day --

-Hey, Hillary, why did your
husband visit Epstein island

26 times?!

-Remember seeing the hashtag
#ClintonBodyCount

as the first hashtag
around Epstein's death.

It was very clear
from the beginning that people

were alleging that Clintons
had Epstein murdered in prison

so that more information
about them wouldn't come out.

So, I remember watching
the video from Terrence Williams

that was later
retweeted by Trump.

-Because of the President,

millions of people have now
read conservative

comedian Terrence Williams's
ridiculous tweet

claiming the Clintons
were behind the death.

-You know,
he's a high-value target

for all kinds
of different people.

So Clinton wasn't
the only ones

that we would imagine might have
had a hand in killing him.

-It's an analogue
on the other side.

The left would say,
"And Trump, who had social ties

to Jeffrey Epstein...,"
and the suggestion there

is that, in an effort
to keep from coming out

any sort of dark secrets,
they have him killed.

-The questions that people
were asking about,

"Well, what happened?"
were legitimate.

The assumption that it must have
been a hit fell wildly afield

from what we actually knew.

-I think they should get
another hobby, you know?

Uh...do something
more with their lives.

But, hey, as far as the people

who did the legitimate
investigation are concerned,

he committed suicide.

I'm not the only person
who said he committed suicide.

Somebody has to be the first.
I'm glad it was me.

-"Photos show Jeffrey Epstein

as he's wheeled
into downtown hospital,"

by Larry Celona,
Eileen A.J. Connolly,

and Emily Saul.

One of the big things
was that his nose wasn't big --

No, it was his ears.
It was his ears.

People were like,
"His ears are different."

-It was the ears and the nose.
They went right

into those things.
-Well, that's kind of

the only parts of him
you can see.

Yeah.
-I always called that theory

the "Freaky Friday"
body-double theory.

-Yeah.
-Which was what people believed

that they had switched out this
body for...

-Roger...
-...Tony Rodham.

-Yes.

-Hillary Rodham Clinton's
brother,

who had died, I believe,

like two months
prior to Jeffrey Epstein.

-So they would have had
to keep his ass on ice...

-Yeah.
-...knowing that Epstein

was gonna get arrested.

-No funeral, no cremation.
-No funeral, nothing.

-Body solid.
-Full ice.

-Switch them out.

-In the summer.
Which never made sense to me

'cause, like, I was always,
like,

"Well, why wouldn't
they just not arrest him?"

Jeffrey Epstein died during
the first, like,

month of the show.

There was just
a ton of information

coming out really quickly,

and I think a lot of people
liked the show

because we were sort of able to
synthesize a lot of that stuff

and -- and explain it in kind of
like normal terms to people.

The Post, you know, somehow
notes in this article that,

yes, uh, Epstein's
hyoid bone was broken,

and that usually appears
in homicides,

not suicides, which, you know,
it would really help us

if we could learn
that there was no possibility

of homicide there, right?
-Well, what's funny is,

it says,
"It was not immediately clear

why some video footage
outside Epstein's cell

is too flawed
for investigators to use,

or what is visible
in the usable footage."

Yeah, I -- okay.
"It's not immediately clear"?

I think it's pretty clear.

-I think people understand
that the way media works

is, like, it relies on sponsors,
it relies on advertisers,

and then often, in
individual reporters' cases,

it relies on
personal connections

that they might have with
the subjects they cover.

The issue of, like,
access journalism

is where you like --
you probably won't be

as honest with your audience
as you normally would,

because you want to maintain
a good relationship

with the people
that you're covering.

-I think the media has let
the American people down,

but I also think most people
cannot be in the media.

Even if you're
an awesome journalist,

even if you're a great writer,

great investigative reporter,
you're locked out.

Who can be in it?
The children of the wealthy.

And so when the children of the
wealthy dominate an industry,

or at least, um,
play a large role in it,

they're not going to want
to report on the wealthy.

You know,
those are their parents

or their parents' friends.

If you're outside of that world,
you notice it.

This is a very,
very insular world,

and I don't think they realize
how strange

this looks
to ordinary people

that, like, most of us
don't know celebrities,

and we don't know
powerful politicians,

and we don't even know
people in media.

And I say, I think
that's been a problem.

-People's understandable
questions and doubt

about the narrative
of what happened in the MCC

are a kind of --
a way for them

to articulate
what their larger questions

about Jeffrey Epstein's
relationship with people

in power, like, really is.

And so in some ways,
I think that the --

the questions
about his death or his suicide

or his not suicide,
whatever may have happened,

are really more
of a kind of placeholder

for a lot of those larger
questions that most people feel,

you know, are -- are maybe
much harder to ask.

-You had to ask yourself,

"How is he having
allegedly access

to all these very,
very important people?"

I've met a lot of people
like this who are exceptional,

and not everybody is close
to centers of power

like he's supposed to be.

And I don't believe
for one second that,

um, offering sexualized massages
with young girls

is the reason
he had that access.

To me, it suggests that
there is some other way

that he had influence,
and in my own personal opinion,

I am receptive
to the possibility

that he was an operative
for foreign governments.

-Why reach out to Epstein?

You have all the resources
in the world.

You could meet with anyone
you wanted to.

Why are you seeking out
a pedophile?

Why are you seeking out
a child trafficker?

-Tonight, Ghislaine Maxwell has
now been sentenced to 20 years

in prison after her conviction
for grooming underage girls

for Jeffrey Epstein.
-Before she was sentenced,

Maxwell addressed the court
for the first time,

saying meeting Epstein was the
greatest regret of her life.

-I think the fact that Epstein
and Maxwell

are no longer out
in the world

does not mean that what
they've done has stopped.

There, I think, very likely
is still

a rape/child-trafficking network

being used to blackmail
powerful figures.

-Ghislaine Maxwell is in prison,
and a lot of people want to know

if she's going to turn
in powerful people.

-I don't know.
I haven't really been

following it too much.
I just wish her well, frankly.

-Any comments on the alleged --
allegations of your connection

with Jeffrey Epstein?
-Oh, please.

-Virginia Roberts...
-Yeah.

-...has made allegations
against you.

She described
dancing with you...

-No.
-...and you profusely sweating

and that she went on
to have a bath, possibly --

There's a -- There's a slight
problem with -- with --

with -- with --
with the sweating,

which is that I don't sweat.

-When it's tied
to world leaders,

it has real
security implications,

and people, I think,
are owed that information.

And the absolute uniform silence
about it, I think,

is profoundly disturbing.

-I think it's a shame
that a lot of people's real

and understandable questions
about this case

and about what actually
happened in that jail cell

got kind of memed
into Etsy sweatshirts

and Christmas ornaments
at Urban Outfitters,

and kind of a right-wing
rallying cry

for pretty much,
like, cynical opportunists.

-There also tends to be this,

um, kind of mentality
within the mainstream media

of insisting that everything
is actually fine,

that things can never be
as bad as they seem,

even if they're bad
right in your face.

There was an actual pedophile
trafficking ring happening.

The media went
from ignoring Epstein entirely

to this glut of articles
that came out,

where many admitted
that they knew all along

that this was happening.

-Epstein was hiding
in plain sight.

We all knew about him.
We all knew what he was doing.

-What we're dealing with now
on the Internet,

in terms
of anti-media movements,

is so important
to understand, though,

because this is the public
saying, "We're not gonna

just trust the mouthpieces
of mainstream media

to say whatever it is

you want them to parrot
back to you."

-Hillary, I have to ask you
a question

that has been plaguing me
for a while.

-How did you
kill Jeffrey Epstein?

-Do you think Epstein
killed himself?

Sincerely.
-I don't know.

I-I will say that, you know,
he was a fixture in Palm Beach.

-I believe that he was,
uh, murdered.

-I do think that Jeffrey Epstein
killed himself.

There has been
an inspectors general report.

There was the autopsy.
It's been explained.

-No, I don't think
Jeffrey Epstein killed himself.

You know, I really don't think
that he was able

to do
that kind of damage to himself.

He may have wanted to die
and possibly, um,

hired somebody, for example.

But I don't think
that he was capable

of breaking three bones
in his neck

by kneeling from his bunk.

And I don't think he had,

as he admitted to his own
psychiatrist at the prison,

he didn't have the courage
to do that.

I mean, this was a guy that had
everything done for him,

you know, down to practically
having his shoes

tied by his butlers.

-If you're going from the top
of the mountain, uh,

to the subbasement,
that's a pretty big comedown.

And how that would affect
somebody in his situation

is something that is beyond me.

It wouldn't surprise me
if he killed himself.

It would not surprise me

if there were some other cause
for his death.

-The old saying is true --
"Loose lips sink ships."

And I just don't know, um,

anyone that would have
the discipline not to say,

"Well, I killed Epstein."

So, in this case,
I do believe the evidence.

I do believe the story.

I must trust what is
the most likely outcome.

-Let's just say
it was a suicide.

Why not just say,
"Here's how it happened.

Here's how we found him.
Here's what the guards said."

But the fact that nobody is
saying anything indicates to me

that there's something
not right.

-This is an ugly black mark
on the Bureau of Prisons,

and I'll give them the credit

for subsequently
closing the MCC,

which is the only
good thing, really,

to come out of Epstein's death.

-Epstein killed himself
on August 10, 2019,

and here it is,
five years later,

and we're still dealing with it.

-It's the gift
that keeps on giving.

There will always be an Epstein
story on a slow news day,

and the tentacles that it has
just don't seem to recede.

-I'm not surprised we continue

to talk about "Epstein
didn't kill himself,"

because what's so important
about a meme

is what it does
once it transforms

into meaning something
more than its creation.

Meme wars
are so important online,

and we dismiss them because
they're, you know, often jokes,

their irony,
their disinformation.

But usually within even
the most grotesque meme wars,

there is some kind of
kernel of truth

or some kind of understanding
that something is still amiss.

-The women.

The women
sometimes keep me up at night.

You know, what they went
through, you know?

You know,
I had to -- to some degree,

I -- I had to feel it, too.

You know, of course, I can't
feel it as deeply as they did.

You know, they had
their whole lives ahead of them.

And, uh...

people just look
the other way, you know?

And destroyed so many lives.

The public deserves the truth.

The victims certainly
deserve the truth.

It might not happen
in my lifetime,

but I do think that the truth
always comes out.