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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:08,400 - How come, all these years we haven't found where Ithaca is? 2 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:10,200 MAKIS: 3 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:21,760 HETTIE: We live in Poros, 4 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,440 so you know every stone, especially Makis. 5 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:25,960 MAKIS: 6 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,400 Then I thought, "Well, here I am." 7 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:31,720 - Could this be Odysseus tomb? 8 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,320 YANGOS: They found the skull in there. 9 00:00:36,480 --> 00:00:39,200 This might be the skull of Odysseus. 10 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:51,480 A dog grabbing a deer. 11 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,880 - In this moment and in this image, that is Odysseus. 12 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:56,040 - (laughs) 13 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,200 HETTIE: And Maki has energy inside him, because of this. 14 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,280 I would get a small electrical shock from him. 15 00:01:08,320 --> 00:01:10,800 - If that's real, that would be unique. 16 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,120 - The grave and the discovery, 17 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:26,720 it has such a big impact on our life in the way that, afterwards, 18 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:29,080 everything we did or thought, 19 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,240 we had to do to live our life, 20 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,840 we had to bring up our children. We had to work. 21 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:39,080 But it was always this, always, in connection with the grave. 22 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,000 - Well, I was like nine, eight years old 23 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,320 when it all began, so... (laugh) 24 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:50,400 it's funny because my father was absent most of the time. 25 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:52,200 To give you an example, people, 26 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,160 they were calling at home for my father. 27 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,760 And me and my brother were just saying, "He's at the tomb." 28 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,040 And the people didn't understand what that meant. 29 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,480 (laugh) 30 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:04,000 Yeah... 31 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,240 That, that's how it began. (laugh) 32 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:13,200 HETTIE: It was always something happening with the grave. 33 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,760 Either it was a publication, either people that were angry 34 00:02:17,920 --> 00:02:20,960 and say that nothing of that was true. 35 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,600 Other people started to threaten us, to call us names. 36 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,720 How does a shopkeeper, they thought, they said - Maki was a shopkeeper - 37 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,160 know anything about Homer. 38 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,480 And you know Homeric Ithaca is where it is, in Ithaca. 39 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:36,400 Don't start to change this. 40 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:41,760 PHILIPPOS: You hear things, you catch up, conversations, comments. 41 00:02:41,920 --> 00:02:45,760 So yeah, I knew, I knew... (laugh) ..that, uh, 42 00:02:45,920 --> 00:02:49,000 this is a topic that creates friction. 43 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,840 Well, I was playing football at the local team, 44 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:58,960 and we're playing... I also had to go to Ithaca to play match. 45 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,480 So, I think that was the first time I understood that. 46 00:03:01,640 --> 00:03:05,840 I was like, uh, not very... welcome person, even as a kid there. 47 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:12,440 - We always had the idea that the Kingdom of Ulysses, of Odyssey, 48 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,280 was the area of the Ionian Islands. 49 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:19,800 So it was Kefalonia, Zakynthos, Lefkas, Ithaca. 50 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:25,800 And we never wanted to exclude anybody or to do harm to anybody. 51 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,240 But of course, Ithaca is the island that kept the name 52 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,400 alive through the ages. 53 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,760 It was a symbol, an important symbol. 54 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,680 And the people of Ithaca protect that. And rightly so. 55 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,680 So, when we found this ancient tomb, 56 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,560 and everybody started to talk again 57 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,840 about Homeric Ithaca and Odyssea, 58 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,080 that was quite threatening, I suppose, for them. 59 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:55,200 It was very difficult for Maki. 60 00:03:58,440 --> 00:03:59,960 Cos he was in local politics. 61 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,040 - For us, Ithaka is a different place. 62 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:39,600 - Yes - But we love each other. 63 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,000 - Yes, thank you, thank you. - And I voted for him. 64 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,040 - It is down to his efforts that we got where we are, 65 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:48,680 although I don't agree with him. 66 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:06,800 - They were very angry 67 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:10,280 and I also remember that they were even throwing stones at you. 68 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,320 - I don't think they were just kids. 69 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,160 I mean spirits were a bit more aggressive. 70 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,240 - And this created a big problem 71 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,720 both to your person because they started opposing you 72 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:51,880 and they started feeling afraid 73 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,480 that you would probably run as a candidate... 74 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:56,880 - Oh yes. - ..for a seat in the parliament. 75 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:58,640 - OK. - Because none of the political 76 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:00,520 parties would be willing to lose the seat 77 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:02,200 because of the people of Ithaca. 78 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:05,200 - They were not believing you 79 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:07,720 because they thought you were the enemy. 80 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:10,360 The thing is, sharing the knowledge with people about 81 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:12,520 this new discovery, really never came out. 82 00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:19,320 MAKIS: 83 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:59,240 - Mr Kolonas has published articles in archaeological journals, 84 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,960 but he hasn't published the dig in its whole. 85 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:07,240 Well, Mr Kolonas always was a very busy man and he had other digs. 86 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,680 And then he became responsible 87 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,200 for all the archaeology in the whole of Greece. 88 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:27,760 NARRATOR: Falco Brings up 89 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,120 the Bronze Pieces which have baffled them. 90 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,680 But they soon are identified as parts of ancient furniture 91 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,480 by the Greek archaeologist aboard, Lazaros Kolonas. 92 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,640 - Yes. But he had the wrong priorities. Definitely. 93 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:01,280 When they found the tomb, and he was walking in the ministry. 94 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:03,800 - Yeah. - Other archaeologists would say... 95 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,040 - Don't do it. - ..you don't think you're going 96 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,160 further with this. You know, things like that. 97 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,720 All very negative. - All negative. 98 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:27,320 ISMINI: He was very afraid. 99 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:29,520 That was really realistic for him to be afraid. 100 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,160 'Cos in archaeology, one of the things that you should not do, 101 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,160 which people do and certainly did in the past, 102 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,320 was you're not really supposed to be going to look for something. 103 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:41,480 You find something and then you interpret it. 104 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,280 We've had this amazing tomb sitting here. 105 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,360 So it's like, you know, as a family, like, we, we care about this. 106 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:53,080 And I know for Kolonas too, 107 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,960 a lot of not making any big statements was about politics. 108 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,960 And, you know, you have to think about those things. 109 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,200 - I believe, you know, this grave is like this 110 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,440 because of the political situation. 111 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,720 Kolonas did not public say ever 112 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,640 that this is Ulysses grave. 113 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,680 But Makis... (laugh) 114 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,240 ..that's one of the problems. 115 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,880 "We found Ulysses!" (laugh) 116 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,920 YANGOS: When Kolonas first came, he was dismissive. 117 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,160 Very dismissive, very unbelieving. 118 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:40,280 But it was spectacular. 119 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,080 Really spectacular. The change. 120 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:47,960 Because after the findings it seems that in Kolonas' mind, 121 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,280 the evidence that was coming up eventually convinced him. 122 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,920 He gave the first presentation where he announced the findings in public. 123 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,200 And a lot of people, I was there, we were all there. 124 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,600 - Yeah. - It was winter of '93, '94. 125 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,840 - Something like that. - And he was full of himself. 126 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,040 He was full of himself. I mean, his sails were full of air. 127 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:14,600 I thought that, I mean, if he's going at that speed 128 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,040 in two years we're going to have his books. 129 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,960 - I don't know whether he had been threatened, 130 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,800 whether he had been paid, bribed, I mean, 131 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:30,080 whether... or he's chicken, 132 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,440 I don't know what of all three happens. 133 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,120 VO: Do you wish to return home right now? 134 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,320 I wish you the best. 135 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:39,680 But if you knew what pains you were fated to suffer before you set foot 136 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:41,840 on your native land, 137 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,320 you'd stay right here with me!" 138 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,040 PHILIPPOS: Archaeology in Greece, it is really important and powerful. 139 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,240 And they don't like outsiders. 140 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,520 And of course, my parents were seen as outsiders. 141 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,320 And they tried to undermine it. 142 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:45,640 In our case, it happened, I guess. 143 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,480 GRIGORIS: It's a pity to focus only on Homer, 144 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:55,680 because what we have in Kefalonia 145 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,240 concerning the Mycenaean period is very important. 146 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:02,320 And we, as the archaeological service here on the island. 147 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,040 It's important for our research to be based on data. 148 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,240 The only thing we can say now is that we have a centre of power. 149 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:10,480 Nothing more. 150 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,880 Because we are waiting for the final publication. 151 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:29,760 - We knew that in university circles, 152 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,680 it was a kind of not done to look for Homeric Ithaca. 153 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,720 That was something that was only for people that were dreaming, 154 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,680 that you find this and that you can connect it to Homeric Ithaca. 155 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,160 Homer is taught as an epic poet 156 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:49,280 and there is no connection to the reality in these poems. 157 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:00,200 VO: But come now, 158 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,800 to convince you, I'll show you the landmarks of Ithaca. 159 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,040 MAKIS: 160 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:14,480 - For me, the Odyssey and Homer and the epics in general, 161 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:17,920 Darin Atwater they spoke to me, almost screamed to me 162 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,440 the first time I read the first line of the Odyssey, 163 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,240 because the first couple of lines, the first four lines that said: 164 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:24,560 "Sing in Me Muse. 165 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,800 Through me, tell the story of the Man Skilled in all the ways 166 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,440 of contending, the wanderer, 167 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,400 harried for years on end after he had plundered 168 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,520 the stronghold on the Proud Height of Troy. 169 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,520 Tell us in our own times, lift this great song again." 170 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:43,920 And I was like, wow, 171 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,840 this is actually a tradition that was about singing and poetry. 172 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,440 EMMA: Both the Iliad and the Odyssey are filled with song. 173 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,960 And there are two internal singers, characters who are singers, 174 00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:01,520 called rhapsodes. 175 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:03,720 Rhapsode comes from two words of ancient Greek. 176 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,400 "Rapto," meaning "to stitch" or "to weave," 177 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:08,240 and "aoida" meaning "song." 178 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,640 And they would go around performing large chunks of this poetry. 179 00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:20,920 So the Homeric song is really poetry that has been stitched together, 180 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:22,320 hence rapto, 181 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,360 by different rhapsodes over a long period of time. 182 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:31,480 So if you were reading The Odyssey aloud in Greek, 183 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,120 you would be reading something like this: 184 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,400 (speaks Greek) 185 00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:42,280 Which is the first line of the Odyssey, in the rhythmical Greek. 186 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:44,520 (speaks Greek) 187 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,560 Bum ba ba bum ba ba bum ba ba bum. 188 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:57,760 - The fact that the Odyssey, this document that is held 189 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,720 and lionized in western culture 190 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,720 as the fountainhead of western culture, 191 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,160 you find out that this is preliterate, right? 192 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,600 This comes from a bard, this comes from a minstrel, this was a song, 193 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,240 and you know, memory was a huge part of that. 194 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:21,000 - For a long time, it was considered that it would bend 195 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,000 the rules of plausibility and feasibility and the capacities 196 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,760 of any human brain to memorize this amount of material. 197 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,840 But in the 1930s a scholar called Milman Parry, 198 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,760 who did a lot of field work in a Yugoslavian community, 199 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,800 where most of their literature was disseminated, 200 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,200 not through written word, but through song. 201 00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:41,760 (singing in Bosnian) 202 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:45,640 Parry saw that every noun, 203 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,360 every word would have an adjective to describe it 204 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:51,400 attached to it automatically. 205 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:53,800 So for example, in English, we might say 206 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,920 a dark and stormy night, "night" being the noun, 207 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,360 "dark" and "stormy" being the adjectives described. 208 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,160 When we might say it's a bitter pill to swallow, 209 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,080 "bitter" is attached to the word "pill." 210 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,240 These phrases would come straight into the mind 211 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:07,600 and roll off the tongue. 212 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,640 And that could happen over a huge amount of material 213 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:12,600 and a song that would go on for a very long time. 214 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,480 (Singing in Bosnian) 215 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,360 And when he applied this thinking back to the Homeric poems, 216 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:24,720 he found an uncanny similarity. 217 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:26,920 Achilles isn't just Achilles, 218 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:31,200 he's swift footed Achilles, (speaks Greek) 219 00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:33,080 Odysseus is not just Odysseus. 220 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,320 He's (speaks Greek) "much enduring," 221 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,640 he's (speaks Greek), "great-hearted Odysseus." 222 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,080 - It's these kind of devices that are about memory 223 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,320 and about audience engagement. 224 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,320 You might not have to remember the entire epic, right? 225 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,920 But if you remember this episode and you build on it, 226 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:52,600 now you have an epic poetry 227 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,000 and you have a document like The Odyssey. 228 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,520 - And precisely because of this oral tradition, 229 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,360 these tales that traveled in time as well as in space across Greece, 230 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,880 there may well be that certain rhapsodes were basing 231 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,120 their characters on actual figures 232 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,680 who lived and reigned and fought and battled 233 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:28,280 and won and lost in this late Mycenaean period. 234 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,520 - These things are anchors that kind of help everybody 235 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,880 hold onto in terms of, when everything else goes, 236 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,080 we have our identity in these things. 237 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,720 CHILL (sings): # I shed some light on where it's darkest at, 238 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:22,400 # Where the kicks and the coffins match, 239 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:23,560 # Get air'd to max 240 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:25,520 # You from where minimum is offered at. 241 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,800 # Couple days from graduation, They took off his cap, 242 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,440 # An outcast, caught him holding, told him come up off his stacks, 243 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,400 # Flashed a big boy, black on black, that's an awful match. # 244 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:35,800 So where I'm from is everything to me, 245 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,080 and I try to exude that in everything that is me. 246 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,760 So in my music and the way I dress, the way I walk, the way I talk, 247 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,040 it's Philly. 248 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,280 And then in the lyrics, you shout out the spots that only we know. 249 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,640 So you got the Liberty Bell, Rocky steps. 250 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,080 But then, when you hear "West Philadelphia, born and raised" 251 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:54,520 like you know Will Smith. 252 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,200 But the beginning of that story, is Overbrook High School. 253 00:24:57,360 --> 00:25:00,320 What we affectionately call the castle on the hill. 254 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,320 It's just because of its stature, because of its prominence 255 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:04,960 and what it meant to West Philly. 256 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,040 Odysseus, he talks about this mountain and he's like, 257 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,040 "You'll know that you here, when you see the mountain." 258 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,200 And in my mind, that's the same as the castle on the hill. 259 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:19,440 So the first part will go... 260 00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:27,160 # A man of one name, but many meanings, many schemes but yet 261 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:28,800 # And still he remains blameless. 262 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:30,400 # It's dangerous, terrain switch. 263 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,800 # He's resilient, built to survive, added endurance to the brilliance # 264 00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:38,040 Oh yeah you got me, and then I go to my joint. 265 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:39,200 # I go by chill. 266 00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:41,520 # They call me Moody both together it's nothing to me. 267 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:43,920 # Son of moody the blood of West Philly is running through me, 268 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,560 # there's not chances I'm gonna fail before the classes in the 'ville 269 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,320 # it was the castle on the hill Location's far from basic # 270 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,840 DARIN: That's why oral traditions are powerful. 271 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,960 A human has to tell you this story. 272 00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:11,040 A human has to sit down with you and engage with you 273 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,680 and tell you about this great time in our human civilization. 274 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,240 And I think it's those universal themes that echo across epics. 275 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:26,960 There's an African proverb that says, 276 00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:30,800 "When an old man dies, a library burns to the ground." 277 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,960 You know, you're charged with keeping these stories alive, 278 00:26:36,120 --> 00:26:37,600 keeping these places alive. 279 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,000 JOHN: Homer is a process. 280 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,400 It's a centuries long process. 281 00:27:12,360 --> 00:27:14,880 And when you recite the Odyssey, 282 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:20,240 you're reciting something that's been formulated over centuries. 283 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,200 (speaks Greek) 284 00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:32,600 This is JOHN: from America. 285 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:37,760 Tell me where will I go to study the seal? OK. 286 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,080 We will be there in about 20 minutes. Thank you. Thank you. 287 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:42,560 Bye-bye. 288 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:48,080 DIRECTOR: So, look, we just got this email from the ephor of archaeology. 289 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,720 We've been trying to get permission to see these seals for months. 290 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,840 "Unfortunately as far as Professor Younger is concerned, 291 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,600 his permission is only to study the material and not for filming." 292 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,000 - It's Greece. What could go wrong? (laughs) 293 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:16,280 So we have the seals here in little zip bags. 294 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,360 Almost all of these seals are workshop fresh. 295 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,080 Not used, not worn. 296 00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:30,920 Here's the rock crystal one there. 297 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:35,280 And I expected to see a lot more wear. 298 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,520 It's been kept care of. 299 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,360 There's a lot of detail in this thing. 300 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,440 You'll notice that the, um, uh, 301 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,000 the foreleg of the lion should have a tibia. 302 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,840 And you can actually see the separation of the tibia. 303 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:54,280 There are dots with a little, um, rectangular ends for the talons. 304 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,960 This seal, it's special. 305 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,400 I mean, there's a parallel to the Odyssey 306 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,720 and the parallel is, um... 307 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,280 is not exact. 308 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:10,120 Isn't that Homer? 309 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,280 I want to be able to get into that tholos. 310 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,080 For so many years, Homer was just a story. 311 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,960 But now with excavations, we have lots of Homeric details 312 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,560 that we can point to and say, yes, that's in Homer. 313 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,400 The most famous example is the cup of Nestor, 314 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,080 which Homer describes as a gold cup 315 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,600 which has doves on the handles. 316 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,680 And there is such a cup from the shaft graves at Mycenae 317 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,320 dating to around 1,600 BCE. 318 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,400 That's really intriguing. 319 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,960 This is definitely a country tholos, 320 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,440 meant to look like it's been here 321 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,600 much longer than any other tholos in the world. 322 00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:00,800 I'm describing the blocks of the interior dome, 323 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:05,800 how they're so loose and kind of square, like chunks of feta. 324 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:07,840 I don't think I've ever seen that. 325 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,080 - Already downloaded some of these images. 326 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,880 - Yes. - And so these black ones 327 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,120 of black steatite there, which are kind of normal... 328 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:29,880 is a Cretan material. 329 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,600 Um, but they show virtually no sign 330 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,080 of being worn or being used. 331 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,880 - All of them come from Crete, yeah. 332 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,960 - The rock crystal dates to around 1500, 1450. 333 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:44,920 The rest of them date to around 1300. 334 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,760 So, the rock crystal has been passed down 335 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,320 from one generation to the next. 336 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,240 - Absolutely. My feeling is that 337 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,600 if you want to become king of Ithaca... 338 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:06,680 - Yeah. - ..you go to Crete 339 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,960 to get your seals. And we have noticed 340 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,000 that when you receive your new seals, 341 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,760 you also receive an heirloom, 342 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,040 which would be the rock crystal. 343 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:27,880 - Whenever Odysseus says who he is, he says," I'm Cretan." 344 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,560 So the main thing that got me here... 345 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:34,280 was to look at this particular seal. 346 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:39,720 The lion and the deer are nicely, uh, sculpted. 347 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,760 The lion is pretty shaggy and looks kind of fierce. 348 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,440 And the deer has got these big, big ears like a roe deer. 349 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,000 - But the way it was published, it looked square, 350 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,760 like it had squared corners right there. 351 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,560 And, uh, and that would be a very unusual shape. 352 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,200 Usually if they have square corners like that, 353 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,800 then it's because it's been placed into a setting, 354 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,080 and therefore could conform to Homer's description 355 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,000 of Odysseus's belt buckle or whatever. 356 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,480 So I came here expecting to see a seal that was actually not a seal, 357 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,440 but actually a piece for a setting in something. 358 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:30,840 And I don't see that. 359 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,160 But if we're thinking about... Kefalonia as being part 360 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,200 of the Mycenaean world, then I don't want this to be unique. 361 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,080 Put it into a context. And the context, it's rich. 362 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,120 Another a hundred seals made outta rock crystal 363 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:56,080 and therefore it belongs to a larger cultural community. 364 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:02,160 And that then fits in with your concept that this island 365 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,360 is part of this larger cultural community. 366 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:08,640 It doesn't sit here alone. 367 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:11,920 I've always looked at the Ionian islands 368 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,760 as being on the edge of the Mycenaean world looking west. 369 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,240 No. This is part of it. 370 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,040 This is not on the edge of anything. 371 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,800 The culture here is absolutely what Homer's talking about. 372 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,360 I think it's pure prejudice that I've never come here. 373 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,040 This is not on the fringe of something. 374 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,720 This is right in the middle of it. 375 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,440 I would like to see more about how 376 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:46,080 Kefalonia fits into this Mycenaean centre, 377 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,280 cos I was not expecting this. 378 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,680 - Well, I'm ready to, to go together to show you more. 379 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,520 - So we have a road over here. 380 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:03,200 - Up there, yeah. 381 00:34:14,720 --> 00:34:16,120 JOHN: This is a big road. 382 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,120 This is unusual. 383 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,480 If this is one, let's say, curb of the road, 384 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:25,800 and that's the other curb of the road, 385 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,640 we have about three meters. - About three meters, yes. 386 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:36,880 - It's wide enough for chariots, for a chariot with huge curbs. 387 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,720 And you say, how long is this about? - It's about 300 meters. 388 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:42,960 - 300 meters. - Yes. 389 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,280 - We don't have many chariot roads. 390 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:50,920 We don't have many chariot roads anywhere In the Mycenaean period. 391 00:34:52,240 --> 00:34:53,840 This is very evocative. 392 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:55,960 I mean, it really looks important. 393 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:57,840 OK. I'm getting an idea. 394 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,400 Let's imagine that they build the tholos, 395 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,040 like the people of long time ago. 396 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,080 And then you have this avenue 397 00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:12,280 that goes from there to the tholos. 398 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,800 And that's where you would, you go down here in your chariots, 399 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,480 and you would visit the tholos. 400 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,000 In the Argolid, yeah, OK, 401 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,400 we have a road wide enough for a chariot. 402 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,520 But, yeah, it starts near Tyrins. 403 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:33,720 And I'm very impressed by the Tyrins fresco that shows women, 404 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,760 you know, in the, in a chariot procession. 405 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,480 And we have down in the tholos down there 406 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,880 that we have smashed pots, drinking vessels. 407 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,120 MAKIS: Yeah, a lot of them. JOHN: A lot of them! 408 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:50,920 The obvious reconstruction is people are driving in chariots, 409 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,640 men and women driving in chariots slowly down. 410 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,280 And you get to the tholos and you have a libation. 411 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,080 And you smash the drinking goblet there. 412 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:08,800 - Is there anything you don't find here? 413 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,480 - No, I don't think so. - (laughs) 414 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,000 - Can you show me the altar? - Of course! 415 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,720 - What is this thing? Oh, whoa. 416 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,280 - You see, it's making this... - It's big, big. 417 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,920 You're kidding me. It's big. 418 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:28,720 - Yeah, it's very big. - It's big. 419 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:31,440 A grave circle. 420 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:36,560 It's this, it's a low wall of stones 421 00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:40,400 that encircle an area which is a cemetery. 422 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,480 This is the size of the two grave circles at Mycenae. 423 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:48,040 We don't have very many of these! 424 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,360 I'm sorry, I'm doing the John Younger thing again. 425 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:52,320 We don't have very many of these things. 426 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,240 This looks to me like... 427 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:59,040 work that you would expect to see at the capital, Mycenae. 428 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,000 The road, the chariot, the grave circle. 429 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,280 This is, you know, it's on an island. 430 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,960 It's on an island in the Western Sea. 431 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,800 I would expect to see this in mainland Greece. 432 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:14,840 This is beautiful. 433 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:23,760 Well, I came here for one thing. 434 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,520 Instead, I think I found a grave circle. 435 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,680 And we have a ceremonial road leading down to the tholos, 436 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:34,360 big enough for a chariot! 437 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,160 There's more here than meets the eye, 438 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:43,840 so I guess I'll be back! 439 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,000 ISMINI: One of the biggest problems in archaeology is 440 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:50,520 how much does not get published. 441 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,640 I taught classes about the Mycenaean world 442 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,280 and these time periods, and it's like, 443 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,320 it's always the big ones that you talk about, 444 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:57,720 Mycenae, Pylos, Tyrins. 445 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,520 But I would always tell my students about this site, 446 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,280 but I mean, here we are 30 years later 447 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,240 and we still don't know for sure. 448 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,120 HETTIE: Well, Mr Kolonas was always a very busy man. 449 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:14,120 And then he was- became retired. 450 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,040 And then we thought, well probably he's going to write it now. 451 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,040 But yeah, life goes on and I can't really explain, 452 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:22,800 but it hasn't happened yet. 453 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,560 ISMINI: Dr Kolonas, he was really incredibly kind. 454 00:39:20,720 --> 00:39:23,120 I was just this kid, and yes, my family owned the land. 455 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:24,840 But it wasn't really that with him. 456 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,480 I felt like he just genuinely was being a nice person. 457 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,160 He's like, here's this kid who's interested in this stuff. 458 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:32,240 Let me sit and talk to her for a few minutes. 459 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:33,760 He really left an impression on me. 460 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,040 I just kind of wanted to be like him, I suppose. 461 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:40,160 So now 30 years later, come back here and I get to talk to him again. 462 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,200 Can you tell us a little bit about this tomb, 463 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,960 in this whole area in these past 30 years, 464 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,560 what you think about it, what your ideas are about it. 465 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,800 (speaks Greek) 466 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:51,280 Over always... (laugh) 467 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,480 (applause) - And I thank you! 468 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,040 (applause) 469 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,160 (traditional Greek music plays) 470 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:54,880 VO: Tell me, 471 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,480 are you truly Odysseus' son? 472 00:45:59,240 --> 00:46:02,240 With that head and those fine eyes 473 00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:05,680 You look just like him! 474 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,960 Subtitles by Sky Access Services 39101

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