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[ Dramatic music plays]
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[ Electricity buzzes]
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Ladies and gentlemen.
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"Lynch.
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Oz."
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[ Down-tempo music plays ]
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NICHOLSON: When you look at
the grand scope
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of American storytelling...
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in this strange,
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mixed-up, argumentative,
polarised country...
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...finding a story
we can all agree on
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is next to impossible.
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There's these two
very similar films
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that are famous
in film history
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because they share
the same story beats,
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the same trajectory.
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They were both flops
when they came out.
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The first one is
"The Wizard of Oz,"
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and the second one
is Frank Capra's
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"It's A Wonderful Life."
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I'm shaking the dust of this
crummy little town off my feet,
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and I'm going to see
the world.
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Get me back!
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Get me back!
I don't care what happens to me.
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There's no place like home.
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There's no place like home.
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NICHOLSON: And a curious thing
happened with both of them.
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They went away for a few years,
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and then they were
re-presented on TV
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and they were kind of
put forth as special events.
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50% of the television sets
in America
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were tuned to
"The Wizard of Oz."
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And then "Oz" did so well
in the numbers
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that the network
brought it back
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and it eventually
settled into a pattern.
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Always the same time of year.
Always the same moment.
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It's right there, and it's
special and it's precious.
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If "The Wizard of Oz" is not
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the quintessentially
American fairy tale,
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I really don't know what is.
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It's one of the first movies
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I think most children
are introduced to
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as "Hello, you are a child.
Welcome to the world of movies.
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Let me open up the curtain
of what cinema is."
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♪ Somewhere over the rainbow ♪
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♪ Bluebirds fly ♪
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NICHOLSON: But even beyond that,
what makes it special
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is this is a movie
that we've had
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that every generation of kids
has watched for eight decades.
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[ Chanting indistinctly]
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There's just something
in the shared
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candy-coloured musical universe
of "The Wizard of Oz"
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that I find so remarkable,
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so visually
and sonically influential.
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We've all been to Oz.
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One is starved for Technicolor
up there.
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NICHOLSON: And the thing is,
it has not aged at all
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because it's a film
that takes place so squarely
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in the world of musical
and fantasy.
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You can never underestimate
the power of
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when a movie that is
extensively taking place
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in a normal universe
breaks out into song.
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Because that is the moment
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when the film looks
at the audience and it says,
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"Are you in?"
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♪ Somewhere... ♪
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NICHOLSON: It makes me think of
the moment early on
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in "Wild at Heart."
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Nicolas Cage takes Laura Dern
to a metal bar,
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and suddenly in the middle
of this metal bar,
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he begins to sing Elvis.
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♪ I would beg and steal ♪
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♪ Just to feel ♪
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♪ Just to feel ♪
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♪ Your heart ♪
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NICHOLSON: And the band
magically knows the notes
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and everybody else
who's also at this metal bar
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magically sings along.
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♪ So close to mine ♪
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NICHOLSON: David Lynch must
have been four or five years old
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that first year they put
"The Wizard of Oz" on TV.
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I do see the story of
"The Wizard of Oz"
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as the story of David Lynch
himself becoming a filmmaker.
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[ Down-tempo music plays ]
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I feel like I see him in it
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more than I even see
his individual films.
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Despite all the references,
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despite all the red shoes
and the curtains.
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[ Down-tempo music plays ]
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He's a guy from the Plains.
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Missoula doesn't
look too different
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than the Kansas in this movie.
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And so he goes
on this journey himself.
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He's always talking about
consciousness and transcendence.
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And he takes us there
through his films.
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There's an ocean of pure,
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vibrant consciousness
inside each one of us.
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MERRICK'S MOTHER: The stream
flows, the wind blows,
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the cloud fleets,
the heart beats.
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LYNCH: And it's right at
the source and base of mind,
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right at the source of thought,
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and it's also at the source
of all matter.
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You, uh --
You'd better close your eyes,
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my child, for a moment,
in order to be
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better in tune
with the infinite.
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NICHOLSON: And I think that's
what Dorothy does in this film.
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She transcends and she goes
to this other world
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and she goes on this journey
where she winds up
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finding herself
and knowing her own powers,
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which to me is the David Lynch
story above everything.
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There's no place like home.
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NICHOLSON: He talks about his
movies like "Lost Highway,"
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for example, as being what
he calls psychogenic fugues,
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where a character
gets knocked upside by trauma
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and they wind up slipping
into this other dimension
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almost as a way of trying
to find stability.
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I mean, whether or not
you believe Oz is real,
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you know that Dorothy
got hit on the head,
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that something very bad
happened to her
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and that she was unconscious
for a long time...
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that she went to another place,
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that she had this
near-death experience
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in the middle of a tornado.
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Shit.
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Got this damn sticky stuff
in my hair.
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NICHOLSON: There's this very
small detail
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at the opening
of "The Wizard of Oz."
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Right when the title
comes up onscreen,
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you hear this gust of wind,
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but it's not a sound effect.
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It is humans sounding
like a gust of wind.
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They're going "Woooh."
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That human wind sets up
this mood for the whole film,
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you know, a whole film that
winds up being defined by wind.
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And then when the house starts
to swirl around,
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it is an absolute cacophony
inside of this tornado.
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And then she lands
and this entire movie
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goes silent
for the first time.
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And that silence clears
the table for the audience.
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And then the music kicks in
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and you start to hear
the Oz theme,
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and you get a little gust
of that human wind sound again.
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And you have to wonder
if those same winds
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are the ones we hear
in David's films.
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PEOPLE: Woooh! Woooh!
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LYNCH: I was painting a painting
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about four-foot square.
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And I was sitting back,
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probably taking a smoke,
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and looking at it.
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And from the painting,
I heard a wind.
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NICHOLSON: I've heard
David Lynch say that
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when he wants something
special from his actors,
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he says "More wind,"
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which means put more mystery
in their performance.
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He, too, has that love of rooms
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that seem filled with wind
that you can hear,
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even if a room seems like it
should be completely airless.
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[Wind rushing ]
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And I love that he talks about
wind as the source of mystery
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when that is exactly
what happens in "Oz."
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Wind is the source
that rolls the girl around
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and it puts her somewhere new.
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The camera work in that scene
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helps set this really
ominous sense about Oz.
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And it sets up this vibration
of this land is beautiful,
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but you need
to watch your back.
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Something with poison in it,
I think.
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With poison in it,
but attractive to the eye.
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NICHOLSON: I think there is
a sense in a David Lynch film
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where he trains you
really early on
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as the audience
to never be content
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to just take things
at surface value.
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He is always interested in
what's underneath the surface,
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and he is pushing
underneath that,
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and he is the person
who would say,
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"Do you think that group
of apple trees
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just looks like apple trees?
I would look again.
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That grove of apple trees
is actually alive."
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Ouch!
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NICHOLSON: There's violence
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where you're not
expecting to see it.
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"The Wizard of Oz" is absolutely
darker under the surface
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than the movie forces you
to acknowledge.
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I mean, Dorothy enters Oz
killing somebody.
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And that's all that's left
of the Wicked Witch of the East.
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NICHOLSON: Two powerful women
die in "The Wizard of Oz"
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at the hands of a young girl
who is pretty okay with it.
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Like, does Alice
go into Wonderland
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and just start murdering people
left and right?
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I'm melting! Melting!
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She's dead. You killed her.
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NICHOLSON: And it's funny
because Frank Baum
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looked across the ocean
at Hans Christian Andersen
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and the Brothers Grimm,
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00:13:01,739 --> 00:13:04,993
who were writing
really grisly, gory stuff.
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And he thought,
"I'm going to write a story
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that does not have that horror."
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But he didn't really do that.
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NICHOLSON: I think if there is a
driving question or driving goal
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that really connects David Lynch
in all of his films,
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it is that nothing
should be taken for granted
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and that nothing is
exactly what it is.
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Fred?
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I'm not me.
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I'm not.
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I'm not me.
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I'm not. I'm not me.
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[ Gasping ]
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NICHOLSON: And that we all
contain within ourselves
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a deep truth of who we are
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and the power to be the person
that we want to be.
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100%.
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00:14:05,261 --> 00:14:07,180
NICHOLSON: It's interesting
because every time
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00:14:07,180 --> 00:14:10,600
I see David Lynch, I see a man
who has done a lot of work
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00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:15,021
to maintain the sense of moving
through the world like a child.
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00:14:30,536 --> 00:14:33,581
And I love that he is so drawn
to a character like Dorothy,
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whose defining characteristic
is a complete lack of cynicism.
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She walks through this world,
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00:14:38,795 --> 00:14:41,089
and when people are kind,
she's grateful.
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00:14:41,089 --> 00:14:43,174
The only way to get Dorothy
back to Kansas
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00:14:43,174 --> 00:14:45,093
is for me
to take her there myself.
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[ Gasps ]
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00:14:46,302 --> 00:14:49,347
Oh, will you? Could you? Oh!
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00:14:50,181 --> 00:14:51,557
NICHOLSON: And when people
are mean, she's like,
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00:14:51,557 --> 00:14:54,602
"Well, you're mean."
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00:14:54,602 --> 00:14:55,853
Shame on you.
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[ Crying 1
What did you do that for?
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00:14:58,815 --> 00:15:00,983
NICHOLSON: But yet she's
never jaded about anything.
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She has this gigantic, curious
spirit that propels her forward.
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I think where David Lynch
and Dorothy
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00:15:07,323 --> 00:15:09,367
have this strong point
of connection is in the fact
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that they both know that
adventures cannot be planned.
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Life!
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Is full of surprises.
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NICHOLSON: They can only be
approached
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with the right attitude.
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A man's attitude --
A man's attitude go some ways.
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The way his life will be.
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Is that something
you might agree with?
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Sure.
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NICHOLSON: He still thinks,
I think, of curtains
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almost as this gateway to magic.
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They open up and then you get
to enter this other world.
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He favours theatrical curtains,
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00:15:51,909 --> 00:15:54,579
the kind of curtains that belong
to magicians and movie theatres,
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00:15:54,579 --> 00:15:56,164
you know, the kind of curtains
that you only use
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00:15:56,164 --> 00:15:58,583
when you are
framing a performance.
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The kind of curtains
he would have seen
250
00:16:00,293 --> 00:16:02,128
when he goes to the movies
when he was a young boy
251
00:16:02,128 --> 00:16:04,505
and that curtain opens up.
252
00:16:04,505 --> 00:16:06,757
And so when you see
a curtain like that,
253
00:16:06,757 --> 00:16:10,136
you know that something is about
to happen that is not real life.
254
00:16:12,221 --> 00:16:16,684
If a curtain is your divider
between reality and fantasy,
255
00:16:16,684 --> 00:16:20,146
the curtain is easy to get
through and to walk through.
256
00:16:20,146 --> 00:16:23,024
The curtain is welcoming.
257
00:16:23,024 --> 00:16:24,942
It's as easy as Toto
pulling back the curtain
258
00:16:24,942 --> 00:16:26,736
on the great wizard himself.
259
00:16:26,736 --> 00:16:29,197
WIZARD: Think yourself lucky.
260
00:16:29,197 --> 00:16:34,535
Oh, ah, I -- I am the great
and powerful Wizard of Oz.
261
00:16:34,535 --> 00:16:36,120
You're a very bad man.
262
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:37,997
NICHOLSON: And you see
on the Wizard's face
263
00:16:37,997 --> 00:16:40,166
this disappointment
264
00:16:40,166 --> 00:16:42,335
because he has
disappointed them.
265
00:16:42,335 --> 00:16:45,963
I'm just a very bad wizard.
266
00:16:45,963 --> 00:16:47,507
NICHOLSON: And it's almost
unfair, I think,
267
00:16:47,507 --> 00:16:49,717
for everybody to be
so sad when they see him
268
00:16:49,717 --> 00:16:52,470
because it's still a great show.
269
00:16:52,470 --> 00:16:54,764
There's this fear that
the director does not want
270
00:16:54,764 --> 00:16:56,807
his craft to be exposed.
271
00:16:56,807 --> 00:16:58,392
And I wonder if that's
a little bit of
272
00:16:58,392 --> 00:16:59,769
where David Lynch is like,
273
00:16:59,769 --> 00:17:01,479
"I don't want
to explain my films.
274
00:17:01,479 --> 00:17:03,940
I don't want to ever show you
my gears and my levers
275
00:17:03,940 --> 00:17:05,358
because nothing lives up
276
00:17:05,358 --> 00:17:07,276
to what you have perceived
on the screen."
277
00:17:09,487 --> 00:17:13,282
Damian asks, "What's behind
the red curtains?"
278
00:17:13,282 --> 00:17:15,910
It's a top-secret thing, Damian.
279
00:17:15,910 --> 00:17:17,787
And, uh...
280
00:17:19,830 --> 00:17:22,333
Just leave it --
leave it like that.
281
00:17:22,333 --> 00:17:24,085
NICHOLSON: Sometimes when you
see a filmmaker make an allusion
282
00:17:24,085 --> 00:17:26,546
to a film that they love,
they're doing it for this reason
283
00:17:26,546 --> 00:17:28,839
of saying "This film
was an influence on me.
284
00:17:28,839 --> 00:17:30,633
You know, go watch it,
go pay attention to it."
285
00:17:30,633 --> 00:17:32,093
But that is not at all
286
00:17:32,093 --> 00:17:34,178
how I think David Lynch
uses "The Wizard of Oz."
287
00:17:34,178 --> 00:17:36,180
I mean, you can't use
"The Wizard of Oz" like that
288
00:17:36,180 --> 00:17:38,182
because everyone's seen
that film.
289
00:17:43,813 --> 00:17:45,648
I think he wants to go home.
290
00:17:45,648 --> 00:17:48,359
Home.
291
00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,195
Where is your home?
Is that right?
292
00:17:51,195 --> 00:17:54,031
He knows where his home is.
293
00:17:54,031 --> 00:17:55,658
Well, where is his home?
294
00:17:58,244 --> 00:18:00,246
Where home.
295
00:18:00,246 --> 00:18:03,624
♪ We're off to see the Wizard,
the wonderful Wizard of Oz ♪
296
00:18:03,624 --> 00:18:05,126
NICHOLSON:
He almost uses it as a way
297
00:18:05,126 --> 00:18:08,921
of making his films
more approachable.
298
00:18:08,921 --> 00:18:10,715
When you have something
like "Wild at Heart,"
299
00:18:10,715 --> 00:18:13,551
which is a story without
really clear arcs,
300
00:18:13,551 --> 00:18:15,595
and there's violence
that comes in out of nowhere,
301
00:18:15,595 --> 00:18:17,138
and tragedy that comes in
out of nowhere,
302
00:18:17,138 --> 00:18:21,767
and yet incredible hot lust
and humour and romance,
303
00:18:21,767 --> 00:18:23,603
to take this crazy, like,
mother figure
304
00:18:23,603 --> 00:18:25,146
with her red press-on nails
305
00:18:25,146 --> 00:18:26,981
and keep associating her
with the Wicked Witch
306
00:18:26,981 --> 00:18:30,818
is almost a way of giving
that character a parallel.
307
00:18:30,818 --> 00:18:32,570
Look out!
308
00:18:32,570 --> 00:18:35,615
I'm going! Ohhh!
309
00:18:35,615 --> 00:18:38,826
NICHOLSON: And letting
the audience say,
310
00:18:38,826 --> 00:18:41,162
"I kind of understand who she is
and why she does this.
311
00:18:41,162 --> 00:18:44,957
And I don't need to know
any more about her motivations."
312
00:18:44,957 --> 00:18:46,792
He's using "The Wizard of Oz,"
I think,
313
00:18:46,792 --> 00:18:49,712
almost as a way of shaking hands
with the people in the audience
314
00:18:49,712 --> 00:18:52,798
and saying, "We do have
this shared language.
315
00:18:52,798 --> 00:18:54,091
You can trust me."
316
00:18:54,091 --> 00:18:55,509
We will pursue...
317
00:18:55,509 --> 00:18:59,555
Capture, and incarcerate.
318
00:18:59,555 --> 00:19:01,098
Let's hit the road.
319
00:19:03,684 --> 00:19:06,687
[ Dramatic music plays]
320
00:19:16,072 --> 00:19:17,406
ASCHER: My family and I
were just watching
321
00:19:17,406 --> 00:19:18,908
"Back to the Future,"
322
00:19:18,908 --> 00:19:21,952
which couldn't be a less
Lynchian movie if it tried.
323
00:19:21,952 --> 00:19:24,372
But if you use the lens of "Oz"
to look at it,
324
00:19:24,372 --> 00:19:25,706
well, what do you have?
325
00:19:25,706 --> 00:19:27,833
A young man from Any town, USA,
326
00:19:27,833 --> 00:19:30,294
who travels magically
to another world,
327
00:19:30,294 --> 00:19:32,129
in this case, his own past.
328
00:19:36,008 --> 00:19:37,927
This has got to be a dream.
329
00:19:37,927 --> 00:19:39,720
ASCHER: Where he encounters
doppelgangers of people
330
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,265
that he knows from home.
331
00:19:43,265 --> 00:19:45,142
Now. I've got no reason
to suspect
332
00:19:45,142 --> 00:19:48,270
that "Back to the Future" was
inspired by "The Wizard of Oz."
333
00:19:48,270 --> 00:19:51,816
But "The Wizard of Oz"
is a really sturdy template.
334
00:19:51,816 --> 00:19:53,901
It's a provocative lens
to look at, you know,
335
00:19:53,901 --> 00:19:55,319
a lot of different stories
through.
336
00:19:55,319 --> 00:19:57,154
Mom. Dad.
337
00:19:57,154 --> 00:19:59,281
-Did you hit your head?
-Marty, are you alright?
338
00:19:59,281 --> 00:20:01,826
You guys -- you guys look great.
339
00:20:01,826 --> 00:20:05,496
Auntie Em, it's you.
340
00:20:05,496 --> 00:20:07,415
ASCHER: There's a strong
Oz/Kansas dynamic
341
00:20:07,415 --> 00:20:09,542
in "Blue Velvet."
342
00:20:09,542 --> 00:20:11,252
We see how close the real world
343
00:20:11,252 --> 00:20:13,546
and then that nightmare world
are to one another.
344
00:20:16,424 --> 00:20:20,636
FRANK: Dreams talk to you.
345
00:20:20,636 --> 00:20:22,847
ORBISON: ♪ In dreams ♪
346
00:20:22,847 --> 00:20:26,726
In dreams, you're mine.
347
00:20:26,726 --> 00:20:29,854
ASCHER: Jeffrey leaves the
Kansas of his family's bubble
348
00:20:29,854 --> 00:20:33,524
deep in the suburbs of Lumberton
to the other side of Lincoln,
349
00:20:33,524 --> 00:20:37,737
where the sinister
adults-only action goes down.
350
00:20:37,737 --> 00:20:39,780
Here's to an interesting
expeflence,huh?
351
00:20:39,780 --> 00:20:42,283
I'll drink to that.
352
00:20:42,283 --> 00:20:43,951
ASCHER: He crosses over
when he sneaks into
353
00:20:43,951 --> 00:20:46,036
Dorothy Va||en's apartment.
354
00:20:46,036 --> 00:20:47,496
She's certainly
a character from Oz,
355
00:20:47,496 --> 00:20:51,208
not from Kansas,
in Jeffrey's journey.
356
00:20:51,208 --> 00:20:53,544
And then Jeffrey is dragged
through hell,
357
00:20:53,544 --> 00:20:56,881
kills the big bad,
and then returns to his family.
358
00:20:56,881 --> 00:20:59,383
And then at the very end
of that scene with the robin,
359
00:20:59,383 --> 00:21:02,052
with Jeffrey and his family
gathered around the window...
360
00:21:02,052 --> 00:21:04,764
MRS. BEAUMONT: Jeffrey,
lunch is ready.
361
00:21:04,764 --> 00:21:06,474
Okay.
362
00:21:06,474 --> 00:21:09,101
ASCHER: ...looks an awful lot
like Dorothy in her bed,
363
00:21:09,101 --> 00:21:10,686
surrounded by her loving family.
364
00:21:10,686 --> 00:21:13,481
It's a strange world.
365
00:21:13,481 --> 00:21:16,150
Isn't it?
366
00:21:16,150 --> 00:21:19,195
ASCHER: But knowing things,
having experienced things
367
00:21:19,195 --> 00:21:20,905
that they never will.
368
00:21:26,702 --> 00:21:29,914
Paul Atreides is
a very Dorothy-like character.
369
00:21:29,914 --> 00:21:31,916
He certainly travels
through multiple worlds.
370
00:21:31,916 --> 00:21:36,128
Moves from the more colourful
Caladan to Arrakis, Dune,
371
00:21:36,128 --> 00:21:39,590
which is sepia-toned,
a lot like Kansas.
372
00:21:39,590 --> 00:21:44,428
Ultimately, he liberates Dune
just as Dorothy liberates Oz.
373
00:21:44,428 --> 00:21:46,931
John Merrick,
the Elephant Man,
374
00:21:46,931 --> 00:21:48,474
is really the epitome
of a character
375
00:21:48,474 --> 00:21:50,476
who moves between
different worlds.
376
00:21:50,476 --> 00:21:52,186
A freak on exhibit
in the carnival
377
00:21:52,186 --> 00:21:53,896
is just about the lowest
social class
378
00:21:53,896 --> 00:21:56,649
I can imagine
in Victorian England.
379
00:21:56,649 --> 00:21:58,818
And he leaves it
for London Hospital,
380
00:21:58,818 --> 00:22:01,153
which becomes his gateway
to the upper class.
381
00:22:01,153 --> 00:22:02,947
If Oz echoes Kansas,
382
00:22:02,947 --> 00:22:06,450
well, then, the hospital
echoes the carnival.
383
00:22:06,450 --> 00:22:08,619
The horror and the abuse
recur again,
384
00:22:08,619 --> 00:22:10,996
first, more politely
as scientific curiosity,
385
00:22:10,996 --> 00:22:14,250
but then again
quite literally.
386
00:22:14,250 --> 00:22:16,710
So if you see Dorothy
as an innocent character
387
00:22:16,710 --> 00:22:18,629
flung into a dangerous world,
388
00:22:18,629 --> 00:22:21,173
well, Merrick's been
born into one,
389
00:22:21,173 --> 00:22:23,968
and he strives to find
his kinder Kansas,
390
00:22:23,968 --> 00:22:27,179
which, you know,
is sort of a reversal of "Oz."
391
00:22:27,179 --> 00:22:30,641
And the images that we see
of his angelic mother seem,
392
00:22:30,641 --> 00:22:33,227
at least to me,
to be a little inspired
393
00:22:33,227 --> 00:22:35,145
by Glinda the Good Witch,
394
00:22:35,145 --> 00:22:36,772
the epitome of kindness.
395
00:22:36,772 --> 00:22:38,649
Nothing will die.
396
00:22:42,820 --> 00:22:45,531
ASCHER: But just because "Oz"
can be a handy way
397
00:22:45,531 --> 00:22:48,701
to help parse out particular
elements of Lynch's work,
398
00:22:48,701 --> 00:22:50,786
I wouldn't assume that
all of those similarities
399
00:22:50,786 --> 00:22:54,456
were necessarily
directly inspired by "Oz."
400
00:22:54,456 --> 00:22:56,333
They could be.
401
00:22:56,333 --> 00:22:59,920
Desiring an idea is like
a bait on a hook.
402
00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:02,047
-MAN: Yeah.
-You can pull them in.
403
00:23:02,047 --> 00:23:04,925
I like to think of it
as in the other room,
404
00:23:04,925 --> 00:23:07,845
the puzzle is all together,
405
00:23:07,845 --> 00:23:11,974
but they keep flipping in
just one piece at a time.
406
00:23:11,974 --> 00:23:16,520
-In the other room...
-Over there.
407
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,148
ASCHER: Based on G|inda's
appearance in "Wild at Heart,"
408
00:23:19,148 --> 00:23:20,858
I think it's safe to assume
that he spent some time
409
00:23:20,858 --> 00:23:22,276
thinking about the movie.
410
00:23:22,276 --> 00:23:24,778
But, you know,
I personally have no idea
411
00:23:24,778 --> 00:23:28,574
how far that influence
really goes.
412
00:23:28,574 --> 00:23:31,577
He's certainly aware of "Oz."
413
00:23:31,577 --> 00:23:33,245
It's certainly something
that he thinks about.
414
00:23:33,245 --> 00:23:37,416
Certainly something
that's important to him.
415
00:23:37,416 --> 00:23:39,877
I'm going to play
"Somewhere Over the Rainbow."
416
00:23:39,877 --> 00:23:42,630
And try to, anyway-
417
00:24:01,231 --> 00:24:02,983
ASCHER: A lot of people
go to the movies
418
00:24:02,983 --> 00:24:06,445
in order to experience
new worlds and new sensations,
419
00:24:06,445 --> 00:24:08,322
and for that,
you need a relatable, innocent,
420
00:24:08,322 --> 00:24:11,408
inexperienced character to
be confronted by those things.
421
00:24:11,408 --> 00:24:13,160
And I think that that approach
works really well
422
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:14,620
because, I mean,
423
00:24:14,620 --> 00:24:19,208
the real world often feels
chaotic and strange.
424
00:24:19,208 --> 00:24:20,709
Every day we're dragged into
425
00:24:20,709 --> 00:24:22,962
some chaotic new hellscape
against our will.
426
00:24:22,962 --> 00:24:24,713
And we have to find allies.
427
00:24:24,713 --> 00:24:27,049
We have to find a way out
to not only achieve our goals,
428
00:24:27,049 --> 00:24:30,260
but make it back home
at the end of the day.
429
00:24:30,260 --> 00:24:33,138
Of course,
I could be projecting.
430
00:24:33,138 --> 00:24:36,141
It might be that
the broad strokes of "Oz" --
431
00:24:36,141 --> 00:24:39,395
an innocent character finding
herself in a nightmare world,
432
00:24:39,395 --> 00:24:41,772
characters appearing
in more than one shape
433
00:24:41,772 --> 00:24:45,651
within more than one avatar,
having multiple doppelgangers,
434
00:24:45,651 --> 00:24:47,569
even the man behind the curtain,
435
00:24:47,569 --> 00:24:51,073
sort of a sinister power figure
at the centre of the narrative,
436
00:24:51,073 --> 00:24:53,325
one who has two faces --
437
00:24:53,325 --> 00:24:55,452
Well, could be that
that's a generic enough,
438
00:24:55,452 --> 00:24:58,205
a powerful enough metaphor
that you could squeeze it
439
00:24:58,205 --> 00:25:00,374
and poke it and prod it
to apply to most anything.
440
00:25:00,374 --> 00:25:04,378
Thousands of movies are based on
the idea of fish out of water.
441
00:25:04,378 --> 00:25:05,921
"Beverly Hills Cop" --
442
00:25:05,921 --> 00:25:08,257
Axel Foley travels from
the urban grime of Detroit
443
00:25:08,257 --> 00:25:11,593
to glitzy Beverly Hills,
learns a couple lessons,
444
00:25:11,593 --> 00:25:13,804
including that there's less
difference than you might think
445
00:25:13,804 --> 00:25:15,472
at first glance
between those places,
446
00:25:15,472 --> 00:25:17,808
and then he goes back home.
447
00:25:17,808 --> 00:25:19,893
The idea of going
on a great journey,
448
00:25:19,893 --> 00:25:21,812
extending yourself beyond
your comfort level...
449
00:25:21,854 --> 00:25:25,190
Look. They're shooting buffalo.
450
00:25:30,487 --> 00:25:32,364
ASCH ER:
It's a story that's, what,
451
00:25:32,364 --> 00:25:34,324
three-quarters of
American movies?
452
00:25:34,324 --> 00:25:37,619
It's probably hard to overstate
how common that trope is.
453
00:25:37,619 --> 00:25:40,205
Luke travels from his home,
his Kansas-like desert home
454
00:25:40,205 --> 00:25:42,499
to the Death Star
to the Rebellion.
455
00:25:42,499 --> 00:25:44,460
Is that an "Oz" narrative?
456
00:25:44,460 --> 00:25:45,627
Is everything?
457
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,593
There's a really interesting
movie I watched recently,
458
00:25:52,593 --> 00:25:53,927
"The Miracle Worker,"
459
00:25:53,927 --> 00:25:56,597
Arthur Penn's 1962 movie
about Helen Keller.
460
00:25:56,597 --> 00:25:58,057
And it really felt like
461
00:25:58,057 --> 00:26:01,185
I was watching an early
lost David Lynch film.
462
00:26:01,185 --> 00:26:03,854
There's a dinner scene
where the very formal
463
00:26:03,854 --> 00:26:06,523
and proper Keller family
are sitting around the table,
464
00:26:06,523 --> 00:26:09,359
and Helen is racing around it
like a wild animal,
465
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:10,611
growling at food,
grunting,
466
00:26:10,611 --> 00:26:12,654
and all the rest
of the family around her
467
00:26:12,654 --> 00:26:15,282
are trying to act
like nothing is strange.
468
00:26:15,282 --> 00:26:16,658
That kind of contrast,
469
00:26:16,658 --> 00:26:20,204
at once comic and horrifying
and a little sad,
470
00:26:20,204 --> 00:26:21,872
it felt very Lynchian.
471
00:26:21,872 --> 00:26:25,209
She'll be alright in a minute.
472
00:26:25,209 --> 00:26:27,795
ASCHER: There's another moment
where her teacher
473
00:26:27,795 --> 00:26:29,797
is watching Helen
out the window,
474
00:26:29,797 --> 00:26:32,966
and then Annie flashes back
to her own school days.
475
00:26:32,966 --> 00:26:35,344
As a kid, she was in
an institution for the blind,
476
00:26:35,344 --> 00:26:39,264
and Penn uses a double exposure
dissolve that lasts
477
00:26:39,264 --> 00:26:42,226
just an incredibly long time.
478
00:26:42,226 --> 00:26:43,644
If it doesn't look like
a dream scene
479
00:26:43,644 --> 00:26:44,895
straight out of
"The Elephant Man"
480
00:26:44,895 --> 00:26:47,773
or "Eraserhead,"
I don't know what does.
481
00:26:47,773 --> 00:26:49,650
It's something that David Lynch
482
00:26:49,650 --> 00:26:52,027
does in a way
that feels effortless
483
00:26:52,027 --> 00:26:55,489
and it has this powerful,
dreamlike effect.
484
00:26:55,489 --> 00:26:58,325
There's that amazing dissolve
on Cooper's face
485
00:26:58,325 --> 00:27:00,369
that lasts a minute,
minute and a half
486
00:27:00,369 --> 00:27:03,956
where he seems to be
unmoored in his world.
487
00:27:03,956 --> 00:27:05,791
In "The Miracle Worker,"
488
00:27:05,791 --> 00:27:08,168
it's almost as if the ghosts
of Annie's past have returned.
489
00:27:08,168 --> 00:27:11,171
And in both cases,
it's slightly "Oz"-like.
490
00:27:11,171 --> 00:27:13,715
All these characters
are becoming untethered
491
00:27:13,715 --> 00:27:16,468
and losing track of which layer
of reality they're in.
492
00:27:20,222 --> 00:27:24,601
Why would Lynch be that absorbed
with "The Wizard of Oz"?
493
00:27:24,601 --> 00:27:28,147
Well, it's a very nostalgic
American icon of a film.
494
00:27:30,899 --> 00:27:33,402
But anyway, Toto, we're home.
495
00:27:33,402 --> 00:27:36,488
Home. And this is my room.
496
00:27:36,488 --> 00:27:38,824
ASCHER: In a lot of his movies,
there's a sense of a search
497
00:27:38,824 --> 00:27:42,035
for a sort of lost,
perfect American world.
498
00:27:42,035 --> 00:27:45,122
A nostalgia for paradise lost.
499
00:27:45,122 --> 00:27:47,291
Perhaps for one
that never really existed.
500
00:27:47,291 --> 00:27:50,460
Did he watch "The Wizard of Oz"
on a perfect day
501
00:27:50,460 --> 00:27:52,421
at the perfect time as a child
502
00:27:52,421 --> 00:27:54,756
and it sort of baked
into his subconscious?
503
00:27:54,756 --> 00:27:56,550
I wonder if on the same day
504
00:27:56,550 --> 00:27:59,178
he watched "The Brain
From Planet Arous" instead,
505
00:27:59,178 --> 00:28:01,263
would his movies be
very, very different?
506
00:28:01,263 --> 00:28:04,266
[ Dramatic music plays]
507
00:28:15,444 --> 00:28:19,406
Many filmmakers' works
are often variations on a theme.
508
00:28:19,406 --> 00:28:21,450
To me, Stanley Kubrick's films
are often
509
00:28:21,450 --> 00:28:25,871
about exposing the abuses,
the excesses of people in power.
510
00:28:25,871 --> 00:28:28,999
"Paths of Glory" being one
of the most literal ones.
511
00:28:28,999 --> 00:28:31,793
[ Speaks German ]
512
00:28:31,793 --> 00:28:34,379
-Guten tag.
-[ Laughter]
513
00:28:34,379 --> 00:28:38,383
Hey, talk in
a civilised language!
514
00:28:38,383 --> 00:28:40,844
But that continues all
the way up to "Eyes Wide Shut,"
515
00:28:40,844 --> 00:28:43,430
which is about the decadent
super rich.
516
00:28:43,430 --> 00:28:48,894
Ladies, where exactly
are we going?
517
00:28:48,894 --> 00:28:52,314
-Exactly?
-[ Laughter]
518
00:28:52,314 --> 00:28:55,943
Where the rainbow ends.
519
00:28:56,026 --> 00:28:58,070
Where the rainbow ends.
520
00:28:58,070 --> 00:29:00,447
ASCHER: In "The Shining,"
there's the whole conversation
521
00:29:00,447 --> 00:29:03,533
about all the best people
who stayed at the Overlook.
522
00:29:03,533 --> 00:29:06,912
We had four presidents
who stayed here.
523
00:29:06,912 --> 00:29:08,497
Lots of movie stars.
524
00:29:08,497 --> 00:29:09,915
Royalty?
525
00:29:09,915 --> 00:29:11,875
All the best people.
526
00:29:11,875 --> 00:29:14,461
ASCHER: Even Lolita is a girl
who's preyed upon
527
00:29:14,461 --> 00:29:16,797
by different powerful men,
528
00:29:16,797 --> 00:29:19,216
Clare Quilty
and Humbert Humbert.
529
00:29:19,216 --> 00:29:22,219
Gee, I'm really winning here.
I'm really winning.
530
00:29:22,219 --> 00:29:25,555
I hope I don't get
overcome with power.
531
00:29:25,555 --> 00:29:27,307
ASCHER: Lolita is a girl
who's forced to live
532
00:29:27,307 --> 00:29:28,475
in multiple worlds,
533
00:29:28,475 --> 00:29:29,768
the normal one of teenagers,
534
00:29:29,768 --> 00:29:32,813
but also a darker adult one.
535
00:29:32,813 --> 00:29:34,940
You want to stay
with this filthy boy?
536
00:29:34,940 --> 00:29:36,733
-That's what it is, isn't it?
-Yes!
537
00:29:36,733 --> 00:29:39,569
-Why don't you leave me alone?
-Shut your filthy mouth.
538
00:29:39,569 --> 00:29:40,904
ASCHER: There's a lot of
"Lolita" the film
539
00:29:40,904 --> 00:29:42,072
in "Twin Peaks,"
540
00:29:42,072 --> 00:29:43,949
and there's a lot
of Dolores Haze
541
00:29:43,949 --> 00:29:46,118
in Laura Palmer.
542
00:29:46,118 --> 00:29:50,414
What is real?
How do you define real?
543
00:29:50,414 --> 00:29:51,540
ASCHER: Right now,
I'm wrapping up a film
544
00:29:51,540 --> 00:29:53,125
about simulation theory
545
00:29:53,125 --> 00:29:55,502
and "The Wizard of Oz"
has been coming up a lot
546
00:29:55,502 --> 00:29:58,130
because at the end of the day,
what kind of movie is it?
547
00:29:58,130 --> 00:29:59,381
It's the story of a young girl
548
00:29:59,381 --> 00:30:02,843
who moves between
parallel worlds.
549
00:30:02,843 --> 00:30:05,137
It means buckle
your seat belt, Dorothy,
550
00:30:05,137 --> 00:30:07,848
because Kansas
is going bye-bye.
551
00:30:07,848 --> 00:30:10,058
-[ Thunder rumbles]
-ASCHER: And there's a question,
552
00:30:10,058 --> 00:30:12,728
a sort of question mark
left at the end.
553
00:30:12,728 --> 00:30:14,646
Which of these worlds
is the real one?
554
00:30:14,646 --> 00:30:17,024
Are both of them real
in some way?
555
00:30:17,024 --> 00:30:20,027
But it wasn't a dream.
It was a place.
556
00:30:20,027 --> 00:30:23,864
And you, and you,
and you, and you were there.
557
00:30:24,072 --> 00:30:25,782
ASCHER: That's a question
that people play with
558
00:30:25,782 --> 00:30:28,076
in countless movies
that have been influenced by it,
559
00:30:28,076 --> 00:30:30,996
everything from "Nightmare
on Elm Street" to "The Matrix."
560
00:30:30,996 --> 00:30:33,040
Lynch's films are filled
with characters
561
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:34,624
who move between
different worlds,
562
00:30:34,624 --> 00:30:39,129
and they're often very innocent
characters like Dorothy.
563
00:30:39,129 --> 00:30:42,632
Never seen so many trees
in my life.
564
00:30:42,632 --> 00:30:44,134
W.C. Fields would say,
565
00:30:44,134 --> 00:30:45,635
"I'd rather be here
than Philadelphia."
566
00:30:45,635 --> 00:30:47,387
ASCHER: In "Mulholland Drive,"
567
00:30:47,387 --> 00:30:49,806
which might be the most
"Wizard of Oz"-y of all of them,
568
00:30:49,806 --> 00:30:52,893
Betty is a perfect innocent
who finds herself in sort of
569
00:30:52,893 --> 00:30:56,313
the twin versions of Hollywood,
the dream and the nightmare.
570
00:30:56,313 --> 00:30:58,440
I think that in Lynch's
duelling realities,
571
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,318
the membranes between
layers of reality are thinner
572
00:31:01,318 --> 00:31:04,071
than they were
in "The Wizard of Oz."
573
00:31:04,071 --> 00:31:05,489
In many of these movies,
574
00:31:05,489 --> 00:31:07,491
there are characters
who hold all the cards,
575
00:31:07,491 --> 00:31:09,576
just like
The Wizard of Oz himself.
576
00:31:09,576 --> 00:31:11,328
The man behind the curtain.
577
00:31:11,328 --> 00:31:16,208
Characters whose influence
travels between worlds.
578
00:31:16,208 --> 00:31:18,377
We've met before, haven't we?
579
00:31:22,255 --> 00:31:23,924
I don't think so.
580
00:31:27,177 --> 00:31:30,430
Where was it
you think we met?
581
00:31:30,430 --> 00:31:32,766
At your house.
Don't you remember?
582
00:31:34,810 --> 00:31:37,354
When Lynch was talking
about "Inland Empire,"
583
00:31:37,354 --> 00:31:38,980
another story of a woman
who moves between
584
00:31:38,980 --> 00:31:42,359
different levels of reality,
he once answered,
585
00:31:42,359 --> 00:31:43,860
"We are like the spider.
586
00:31:43,860 --> 00:31:46,405
We weave our life
and then move along it.
587
00:31:46,405 --> 00:31:47,948
We are like the dreamer
who dreams,
588
00:31:47,948 --> 00:31:49,825
then lives in the dream.
589
00:31:49,825 --> 00:31:52,619
This is true
for the entire universe."
590
00:31:52,619 --> 00:31:56,081
Like Mulholland Drive
and Winkie's Diner,
591
00:31:56,081 --> 00:31:57,916
that guy is talking
about his dream,
592
00:31:57,916 --> 00:32:00,502
and he's afraid that
the dream could come true.
593
00:32:00,502 --> 00:32:03,380
And then, soon enough, he finds
himself in the nightmare
594
00:32:03,380 --> 00:32:05,715
of having to relive that dream.
595
00:32:05,715 --> 00:32:07,092
He says to a psychiatrist,
596
00:32:07,092 --> 00:32:09,302
"In the dream,
I was sitting here,
597
00:32:09,302 --> 00:32:12,139
and you were up there
by the cash register,"
598
00:32:12,139 --> 00:32:14,724
and then it panned slowly over
to the cash register.
599
00:32:14,724 --> 00:32:18,353
And you see the absence
of the psychiatrist.
600
00:32:18,353 --> 00:32:20,355
And it cuts back
and then you see the gears
601
00:32:20,355 --> 00:32:23,358
turning in the psychiatrist's
head who says,
602
00:32:23,358 --> 00:32:27,446
"Oh, you want to see
if it's real."
603
00:32:27,446 --> 00:32:29,156
And then the man can't
stop it from happening.
604
00:32:29,156 --> 00:32:30,657
The psychiatrist gets up
605
00:32:30,657 --> 00:32:33,326
and he walks to the register
and we pan over.
606
00:32:33,326 --> 00:32:36,371
And now he is
exactly in that position.
607
00:32:36,371 --> 00:32:38,832
He's filled the negative space,
608
00:32:38,832 --> 00:32:41,334
and then the man
finds himself in his dream
609
00:32:41,334 --> 00:32:44,546
the way Dorothy is transported
into her dreams of Oz,
610
00:32:44,546 --> 00:32:47,966
only without a tornado
or even a dissolve.
611
00:32:47,966 --> 00:32:50,552
Just in the space
of a line of dialogue or two.
612
00:32:53,597 --> 00:32:55,974
That very last scene
in "Twin Peaks: The Return"
613
00:32:55,974 --> 00:32:57,809
is the summation
of a lot of ideas
614
00:32:57,809 --> 00:33:00,770
that I think about with "Oz"
and with Lynch.
615
00:33:00,770 --> 00:33:02,355
The question of dreams
versus realities.
616
00:33:02,355 --> 00:33:04,024
Because I read that
617
00:33:04,024 --> 00:33:06,443
the woman who answered the door
in the scene
618
00:33:06,443 --> 00:33:10,447
is actually the woman who lives
in that house in our world.
619
00:33:12,616 --> 00:33:14,367
Is this your house?
620
00:33:14,367 --> 00:33:18,914
Do you own this house
or do you rent this house?
621
00:33:18,914 --> 00:33:20,957
Yes, we own this house.
622
00:33:20,957 --> 00:33:23,376
ASCHER: So it's almost as if,
623
00:33:23,376 --> 00:33:27,464
well, which of the thousands
of possible multiple realities
624
00:33:27,464 --> 00:33:30,217
does Cooper land in
at the end of the series?
625
00:33:30,217 --> 00:33:33,553
He lands in the same one
that you and I are living in
626
00:33:33,553 --> 00:33:35,680
and that the woman who owns
the house that they film
627
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,725
"Twin Peaks: The Return"
lives in.
628
00:33:38,725 --> 00:33:42,270
And it's more than Cooper
and Carrie are able to take.
629
00:33:42,270 --> 00:33:43,897
What year is this?
630
00:33:43,897 --> 00:33:46,942
[ Dramatic music plays]
631
00:34:09,714 --> 00:34:17,347
[ Screams ]
632
00:34:18,682 --> 00:34:21,184
ASCHER: They end that sequence
in a complete mental breakdown,
633
00:34:21,184 --> 00:34:22,811
a complete panic,
634
00:34:22,811 --> 00:34:25,647
which was an experience
that I really went through
635
00:34:25,647 --> 00:34:27,524
while watching
that whole season.
636
00:34:27,524 --> 00:34:28,984
It was shortly after
the election
637
00:34:28,984 --> 00:34:30,777
and a lot of us
were confused and scared
638
00:34:30,777 --> 00:34:33,655
about what was going
to happen in the world.
639
00:34:33,655 --> 00:34:36,032
God bless America.
640
00:34:36,032 --> 00:34:38,201
ASCHER: So it's really nice
to return
641
00:34:38,201 --> 00:34:39,869
to the world of "Twin Peaks,"
642
00:34:39,869 --> 00:34:41,538
even if within the show,
643
00:34:41,538 --> 00:34:44,207
there's one unspeakable
nightmare after another,
644
00:34:44,207 --> 00:34:46,876
at least it was our
unspeakable nightmare.
645
00:34:46,876 --> 00:34:49,588
This is the water.
646
00:34:49,588 --> 00:34:53,592
And this is the well.
647
00:34:53,592 --> 00:34:57,846
Drink full, and descend.
648
00:34:57,846 --> 00:35:00,140
The horse is the white
of the eyes,
649
00:35:00,140 --> 00:35:02,225
and dark within.
650
00:35:04,311 --> 00:35:07,772
ASCHER: But the strangeness
crossed over into my reality
651
00:35:07,772 --> 00:35:10,150
because I remember
episode eight, the big episode,
652
00:35:10,150 --> 00:35:13,570
the one with the atom bomb
and the fireman and that lizard.
653
00:35:13,570 --> 00:35:14,779
I've watched that episode twice.
654
00:35:14,779 --> 00:35:16,615
And each time, another horror
655
00:35:16,615 --> 00:35:18,825
would be waiting for me
the morning after.
656
00:35:18,825 --> 00:35:21,494
The first time
my wife and I watched it,
657
00:35:21,494 --> 00:35:23,330
our cat was acting
really strange,
658
00:35:23,330 --> 00:35:27,000
rubbing her head
against the TV.
659
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,793
The next morning,
we came downstairs,
660
00:35:28,793 --> 00:35:32,088
and the floor was just littered
with blood and feathers
661
00:35:32,088 --> 00:35:33,840
of a bird that she had
managed to catch
662
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,801
while locked
in the house all night.
663
00:35:36,801 --> 00:35:38,428
Maybe she escaped
through a window
664
00:35:38,428 --> 00:35:40,680
and maybe she pulled it back
inside somehow.
665
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:42,098
I've got no idea.
666
00:35:42,098 --> 00:35:43,683
But she murdered it
while we were sleeping
667
00:35:43,683 --> 00:35:46,102
and scattered its remains
all over the floor.
668
00:35:49,064 --> 00:35:51,566
And then two or three
weeks later,
669
00:35:51,566 --> 00:35:53,943
I watched it again alone.
670
00:35:53,943 --> 00:35:56,488
And maybe this is in hindsight,
671
00:35:56,488 --> 00:36:00,950
but as I imagined myself walking
down the steps the next morning,
672
00:36:00,950 --> 00:36:03,328
I'm feeling a sort of
Lynchian dread,
673
00:36:03,328 --> 00:36:05,121
like that guy
in "Mulholland Drive"
674
00:36:05,121 --> 00:36:07,999
who's walking back
behind Winkie's.
675
00:36:07,999 --> 00:36:11,378
And I come to my desk
and on my phone,
676
00:36:11,378 --> 00:36:13,004
there's like 20 new messages
677
00:36:13,004 --> 00:36:16,549
that have just popped
in the last hour waiting for me.
678
00:36:16,549 --> 00:36:19,594
My father back in Florida,
679
00:36:19,594 --> 00:36:21,554
he died the night before.
680
00:36:21,554 --> 00:36:24,641
He hadn't been doing well for
a while, so it wasn't a shock.
681
00:36:24,641 --> 00:36:28,395
But I don't know,
the timing felt really strange.
682
00:36:28,395 --> 00:36:30,522
I don't think I'm going to watch
that episode again anytime soon.
683
00:36:30,522 --> 00:36:32,857
I don't want to know
what's going to happen.
684
00:36:32,857 --> 00:36:35,735
There's bad juju baked
to the bones of that thing.
685
00:36:35,735 --> 00:36:38,738
[ Dramatic music plays]
686
00:36:42,158 --> 00:36:45,078
It is happening again.
687
00:37:04,097 --> 00:37:06,099
ANNOUNCER: Like wildfire
in the wheat field,
688
00:37:06,099 --> 00:37:08,268
the fabulous tale
of "The Wizard of Oz"
689
00:37:08,268 --> 00:37:12,689
spread from town to city
to nation to the entire world.
690
00:37:12,689 --> 00:37:14,607
WATERS: For me,
"The Wizard Of OZ"
691
00:37:14,607 --> 00:37:17,819
was the ultimate
not just American movie,
692
00:37:17,819 --> 00:37:20,113
movie period
that I saw as a child
693
00:37:20,113 --> 00:37:22,449
that made me want to be
in show business,
694
00:37:22,449 --> 00:37:25,952
that made me want
to create characters,
695
00:37:25,952 --> 00:37:28,955
that made me want
to go on adventures
696
00:37:28,955 --> 00:37:31,708
and probably made me take LSD.
697
00:37:31,708 --> 00:37:34,711
[ Mid-tempo music plays ]
698
00:37:42,051 --> 00:37:46,598
I think it was a good influence
on me all the way around.
699
00:37:46,598 --> 00:37:49,434
For me, it changed my life
when I saw it.
700
00:37:49,476 --> 00:37:53,062
My obsession with it
started before television.
701
00:37:53,062 --> 00:37:56,232
My parents took me to see it
at the Rex Theatre in Baltimore,
702
00:37:56,232 --> 00:37:58,067
which, oddly enough,
703
00:37:58,067 --> 00:38:01,654
later became the sexploitation
nudist camp movie theatre
704
00:38:01,654 --> 00:38:03,823
like 30 years later.
705
00:38:03,823 --> 00:38:06,326
Then the Christmas thing
became like the sequel
706
00:38:06,326 --> 00:38:07,869
in my mind as a child.
707
00:38:07,869 --> 00:38:09,412
Every year, we watched it.
708
00:38:09,412 --> 00:38:11,289
I mean, it was a big deal event.
709
00:38:11,289 --> 00:38:13,958
And you always watched it
because it didn't come on again.
710
00:38:13,958 --> 00:38:16,211
There was no other way.
Nobody could imagine
711
00:38:16,211 --> 00:38:18,004
that you could ever
buy a video of something
712
00:38:18,004 --> 00:38:21,049
and watch it whenever
you wanted or rewind it.
713
00:38:21,049 --> 00:38:22,926
That's the thing I always
thought was kind of against.
714
00:38:22,926 --> 00:38:25,720
You give away the magic trick.
715
00:38:25,720 --> 00:38:27,680
But, you know,
the saddest thing I ever heard
716
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,850
was I talked to this young
kind of hipster kid,
717
00:38:30,850 --> 00:38:32,393
and we were just talking
about movies.
718
00:38:32,393 --> 00:38:33,770
And I said, "Do you like
'The Wizard of 02'?"
719
00:38:33,770 --> 00:38:35,146
And he said,
"No, not really.
720
00:38:35,146 --> 00:38:37,899
I mean,
it's basically just walking."
721
00:38:37,899 --> 00:38:41,694
I thought, "God, what a blurb."
722
00:38:41,694 --> 00:38:43,488
If a kid watches
"The Wizard of Oz" today,
723
00:38:43,488 --> 00:38:45,657
the film completely works.
724
00:38:45,657 --> 00:38:49,035
I think it's the perfect --
like a drug to kids
725
00:38:49,035 --> 00:38:50,411
to get them hooked on movies
726
00:38:50,411 --> 00:38:52,288
for the rest
of their young lives.
727
00:38:55,667 --> 00:38:57,502
Well, I don't think
that's the only movie
728
00:38:57,502 --> 00:38:59,170
that influenced David Lynch
or me,
729
00:38:59,170 --> 00:39:02,131
but certainly he probably --
730
00:39:02,131 --> 00:39:04,634
it was maybe one of
the first movies he saw, too.
731
00:39:04,634 --> 00:39:06,469
And whatever
those first movies are --
732
00:39:06,469 --> 00:39:09,347
The other one for me
was "Cinderella," Walt Disney's,
733
00:39:09,347 --> 00:39:11,432
and I love the stepmother
in that movie.
734
00:39:11,432 --> 00:39:13,393
And she was the same to me
as the witch.
735
00:39:13,393 --> 00:39:16,271
She was the villain, the one
you were supposed to hate.
736
00:39:16,271 --> 00:39:18,565
But I was a puppeteer
when I was young.
737
00:39:18,565 --> 00:39:19,732
Was David?
738
00:39:19,732 --> 00:39:21,150
Hello.
739
00:39:21,150 --> 00:39:24,028
We're all very happy
to be here tonight.
740
00:39:24,028 --> 00:39:26,739
First of all,
I'd like to introduce my boys.
741
00:39:26,739 --> 00:39:29,242
This is Chuckle
and this is Buster.
742
00:39:29,242 --> 00:39:31,411
And this is Pete.
I'm David Lynch.
743
00:39:31,411 --> 00:39:33,329
And this is Bob and this is Dan.
744
00:39:33,329 --> 00:39:35,707
WATERS:
Many, many directors are.
745
00:39:35,707 --> 00:39:38,418
And later in life,
your actors always say
746
00:39:38,418 --> 00:39:40,753
"We're not your puppets,"
you know.
747
00:39:40,753 --> 00:39:42,547
Well, yes, you are.
748
00:39:42,547 --> 00:39:45,717
But I wonder if he was,
because it seems like many,
749
00:39:45,717 --> 00:39:49,345
many directors were
puppet enthusiasts as children,
750
00:39:49,345 --> 00:39:50,805
and they were their actors
751
00:39:50,805 --> 00:39:52,849
and they told them
what to do in a way.
752
00:39:52,849 --> 00:39:55,018
It looks like this.
And I got it.
753
00:39:55,018 --> 00:39:56,102
-I got it.
-Yeah.
754
00:39:56,102 --> 00:39:58,104
And start bouncing up and down.
755
00:39:58,104 --> 00:39:59,355
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
756
00:39:59,355 --> 00:40:01,691
Bounce around and kissing.
757
00:40:01,691 --> 00:40:03,276
Yeah. Okay.
758
00:40:03,276 --> 00:40:05,695
WATERS: So I think
it came from that,
759
00:40:05,695 --> 00:40:08,656
that the villains were always
better characters.
760
00:40:08,656 --> 00:40:10,033
They had better outfits.
761
00:40:10,033 --> 00:40:12,785
They're the ones
you remembered more, in a way.
762
00:40:12,785 --> 00:40:14,913
Captain Hook in "Peter Pan,"
763
00:40:14,913 --> 00:40:18,374
I mean, that little girl in
"The Bad Seed," Patty McCormack.
764
00:40:18,791 --> 00:40:21,294
These were
my childhood playmates.
765
00:40:21,294 --> 00:40:24,505
Give me those shoes back.
766
00:40:24,505 --> 00:40:26,591
Oh, no, I got them shoes hid
767
00:40:26,591 --> 00:40:28,927
where no bother or bee
can find.
768
00:40:28,927 --> 00:40:30,845
You better give me those shoes.
769
00:40:30,845 --> 00:40:33,890
They're mine.
Give them back to me.
770
00:40:33,890 --> 00:40:35,808
WATERS: I wrote
Margaret Hamilton in my life,
771
00:40:35,808 --> 00:40:37,894
and she did send me back
an autographed picture
772
00:40:37,894 --> 00:40:39,312
and she always signed
her autographs
773
00:40:39,312 --> 00:40:41,606
"WWW Margaret Hamilton,"
774
00:40:41,606 --> 00:40:43,274
like the Wicked Witch
of the West,
775
00:40:43,274 --> 00:40:45,360
which I prayed she had
monogrammed sheets
776
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,111
that said that.
777
00:40:47,111 --> 00:40:50,573
What a performance,
what a performance.
778
00:40:50,573 --> 00:40:52,742
Who killed my sister?
779
00:40:52,742 --> 00:40:54,577
Who killed the Witch
of the East?
780
00:40:54,577 --> 00:40:56,329
Was it you?
781
00:40:56,329 --> 00:40:59,415
WATERS: And she was so much more
fun than the good witch
782
00:40:59,415 --> 00:41:01,250
who dressed like
she had gone insane
783
00:41:01,250 --> 00:41:03,920
getting ready for the prom.
784
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,798
Most directors
can always tell you
785
00:41:06,798 --> 00:41:08,383
one of the first few movies
786
00:41:08,383 --> 00:41:10,843
that obsessed them
when they were a kid.
787
00:41:10,843 --> 00:41:15,181
And that is what led them to
pick this as a career forever.
788
00:41:15,181 --> 00:41:18,393
"The Wizard of Oz" is still
my favourite movie.
789
00:41:18,393 --> 00:41:20,895
Wicked Witch -- I was in drag
only once in my life,
790
00:41:20,895 --> 00:41:22,397
and that was as
the Wicked Witch.
791
00:41:22,397 --> 00:41:24,107
And I went to
a children's birthday party.
792
00:41:24,107 --> 00:41:27,276
You know, I raised
a few parents' eyebrows.
793
00:41:27,276 --> 00:41:30,071
WATERS: I think all my films
have been influenced.
794
00:41:30,071 --> 00:41:32,281
Oz was Queen Carlotta, maybe.
795
00:41:32,281 --> 00:41:35,201
I think "Desperate Living"
had some "Wizard of Oz" in it.
796
00:41:35,201 --> 00:41:37,412
Bring me her broomstick,
797
00:41:37,412 --> 00:41:41,207
and I'll grant your request.
798
00:41:41,207 --> 00:41:42,750
Now, go.
799
00:41:42,750 --> 00:41:47,463
Loyalty to the Queen
sometimes results in reward.
800
00:41:47,463 --> 00:41:48,798
The Munchkins were --
801
00:41:48,798 --> 00:41:51,092
Hey, that was like Mortville,
kind of.
802
00:41:51,092 --> 00:41:54,220
"The Wizard of Oz,"
a special little weird town.
803
00:41:54,220 --> 00:41:56,264
Even Divine was not
the Wicked Witch,
804
00:41:56,264 --> 00:41:58,433
but Divine would have hung
around with a wicked witch.
805
00:41:58,433 --> 00:42:01,602
They would have
gotten along well.
806
00:42:01,602 --> 00:42:03,354
I'm trying to think
is there one scene
807
00:42:03,354 --> 00:42:05,690
that was really like
"The Wizard of Oz" on purpose?
808
00:42:05,690 --> 00:42:07,859
Like a parody of it?
809
00:42:07,859 --> 00:42:12,488
MAN:
♪ You've got the magic touch ♪
810
00:42:12,488 --> 00:42:15,199
[Warbling ]
811
00:42:21,122 --> 00:42:23,082
Well, if you could just tell me,
if you could --
812
00:42:23,082 --> 00:42:24,709
Oof!
813
00:42:24,751 --> 00:42:26,085
[ Dramatic music plays]
814
00:42:26,085 --> 00:42:29,088
[ Indistinct singing ]
815
00:42:32,508 --> 00:42:34,260
WATERS: "Dorothy,
the Kansas City Pothead"
816
00:42:34,260 --> 00:42:37,805
was a movie I made
that never really got made.
817
00:42:37,805 --> 00:42:41,726
Dorothy smoked pot
and then went to -- went to Oz,
818
00:42:41,726 --> 00:42:44,020
which was a psychedelic high.
819
00:42:44,020 --> 00:42:47,356
I don't think we ever got
any further than that.
820
00:42:47,356 --> 00:42:50,234
The people that
are my heroes or heroines
821
00:42:50,234 --> 00:42:53,279
would have been the villains
in other people's movies.
822
00:42:53,279 --> 00:42:55,490
And the villains in my movies
are usually people
823
00:42:55,490 --> 00:42:58,284
that are more middle of the road
and judgmental
824
00:42:58,284 --> 00:43:00,161
and don't mind
their own business.
825
00:43:00,161 --> 00:43:03,539
Now, Miss Gulch didn't mind
her own business.
826
00:43:03,539 --> 00:43:06,876
I want to see you and your wife
right away about Dorothy.
827
00:43:06,876 --> 00:43:09,796
WATERS: I make the same film.
The moral is the same.
828
00:43:09,796 --> 00:43:12,006
Mind your business.
829
00:43:12,006 --> 00:43:13,841
Exaggerate what
people use against you.
830
00:43:13,841 --> 00:43:15,927
Turn it into a style and win.
831
00:43:15,927 --> 00:43:18,012
All my movies say that.
832
00:43:18,012 --> 00:43:21,766
We find the defendant
not guilty of all charges.
833
00:43:21,766 --> 00:43:23,559
WATERS: They're different
characters,
834
00:43:23,559 --> 00:43:25,978
but the moral of all my movies
is definitely the same.
835
00:43:27,647 --> 00:43:31,651
David might agree with that
with his own movies.
836
00:43:31,651 --> 00:43:33,402
I think David and I
both have a love
837
00:43:33,402 --> 00:43:37,240
and a hate
for the 1950s in America.
838
00:43:37,240 --> 00:43:40,159
I mean, the '50s
was a terrible time.
839
00:43:40,159 --> 00:43:42,495
EDNA: Tracy, I have told you
about that hair.
840
00:43:42,495 --> 00:43:45,665
All ratted up
like a teenage Jezebel.
841
00:43:45,665 --> 00:43:48,501
Oh, Mother, you're so '50s.
842
00:43:48,501 --> 00:43:51,212
WATERS: I mean, it was
the most judgmental,
843
00:43:51,212 --> 00:43:53,840
conformist thing ever.
844
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:55,842
And not a one of us
is going to start eating
845
00:43:55,842 --> 00:43:58,553
until Laura washes her hands.
846
00:44:00,888 --> 00:44:02,890
Wash your hands.
847
00:44:02,890 --> 00:44:04,517
WATERS: That's why rock
and roll exploded.
848
00:44:04,517 --> 00:44:08,437
It was the first way
to -- to rebel from all that.
849
00:44:08,437 --> 00:44:11,440
God bless Dwight Eisenhower.
850
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,360
PRISONERS: God bless
Dwight Eisenhower.
851
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,946
God bless Roy Cohn.
852
00:44:16,946 --> 00:44:19,574
PRISONERS: God bless Roy Cohn.
853
00:44:19,574 --> 00:44:22,451
WATERS: So I think David would
probably agree with that,
854
00:44:22,451 --> 00:44:24,370
that we grew up
with the same music,
855
00:44:24,370 --> 00:44:26,706
the same censorship in movies
856
00:44:26,747 --> 00:44:30,418
that came falling down
over the years.
857
00:44:30,418 --> 00:44:32,461
I don't think that America
has changed that much.
858
00:44:32,461 --> 00:44:33,963
People still want to go home.
859
00:44:33,963 --> 00:44:36,591
That's why
I never left Baltimore.
860
00:44:36,591 --> 00:44:38,092
This city has great style,
I think.
861
00:44:38,092 --> 00:44:40,803
It's sort of like
white trash chic.
862
00:44:40,803 --> 00:44:43,014
I did stay here because --
863
00:44:43,014 --> 00:44:45,641
because to me,
my real friends were here
864
00:44:45,641 --> 00:44:47,727
and people that didn't care
about show business
865
00:44:47,727 --> 00:44:51,397
and -- and we went over
the rainbow ourselves here
866
00:44:51,397 --> 00:44:53,691
with -- with my friends
when we were young.
867
00:44:53,691 --> 00:44:56,861
And most of those friends,
I still have.
868
00:44:56,861 --> 00:44:58,196
MAN: Hey, does that dog
have to shit?
869
00:44:58,196 --> 00:44:59,488
[ Laughter]
870
00:44:59,488 --> 00:45:01,574
WATERS: David has gone
over the rainbow
871
00:45:01,574 --> 00:45:03,117
from the very first film ever.
872
00:45:03,117 --> 00:45:06,871
He lives in a different reality
than you or I do,
873
00:45:06,871 --> 00:45:10,166
and that's quite obvious.
874
00:45:10,166 --> 00:45:12,460
The last TV show he did was --
875
00:45:12,460 --> 00:45:14,128
was my favourite thing
he ever did,
876
00:45:14,128 --> 00:45:17,673
because if there was ever,
like, being kidnapped
877
00:45:17,673 --> 00:45:19,634
and taken into a Lynchian world
878
00:45:19,634 --> 00:45:22,261
that you didn't even know
where you were,
879
00:45:22,261 --> 00:45:26,432
you were so disoriented that
it was like "The Wizard of Oz."
880
00:45:26,432 --> 00:45:31,187
And I couldn't wait each week to
go there with him on that show.
881
00:45:31,187 --> 00:45:33,981
Somehow he got that through
the Hollywood system.
882
00:45:33,981 --> 00:45:36,192
That is amazing to me.
883
00:45:36,192 --> 00:45:38,152
But from the very
first moment
884
00:45:38,152 --> 00:45:41,322
I ever saw a David Lynch film,
which was "Eraserhead,"
885
00:45:41,322 --> 00:45:44,408
it may have been the first
weekend it was ever at Midnight.
886
00:45:44,408 --> 00:45:46,244
And I started raving
about it in the press
887
00:45:46,244 --> 00:45:47,870
because it was such
an amazing movie.
888
00:45:47,870 --> 00:45:49,455
And of course, it still is.
889
00:45:49,455 --> 00:45:51,290
I've met John Waters
many times,
890
00:45:51,290 --> 00:45:54,210
and I always make sure
I thank him for that.
891
00:45:54,210 --> 00:45:56,295
WATERS: And that's kind of
how we met.
892
00:45:56,295 --> 00:45:58,923
And there is kind of
a famous shot of David Lynch
893
00:45:58,923 --> 00:46:01,926
and I meeting out
front of Bob's Big Boy.
894
00:46:01,926 --> 00:46:03,803
Have you ever seen that picture?
895
00:46:03,803 --> 00:46:06,347
At that period,
David did eat lunch
896
00:46:06,347 --> 00:46:08,891
at Bob Big Boy's,
every day, I think.
897
00:46:08,933 --> 00:46:10,434
Can we say
you're a creature of habit?
898
00:46:10,434 --> 00:46:13,771
Yes, habit
and a daily routine.
899
00:46:13,771 --> 00:46:15,690
And --
900
00:46:15,690 --> 00:46:19,485
And then when there's
some sort of order there,
901
00:46:19,485 --> 00:46:23,990
then you're free to mentally
go off any -- any place.
902
00:46:23,990 --> 00:46:26,242
You've got a safe
sort of foundation
903
00:46:26,242 --> 00:46:28,119
and a place to spring off from.
904
00:46:28,119 --> 00:46:30,371
One day in Bob's,
905
00:46:30,371 --> 00:46:36,502
I saw a man come in
to a counter.
906
00:46:36,502 --> 00:46:41,424
Seeing him came a feeling.
907
00:46:41,424 --> 00:46:46,095
And that's where
Frank Booth came from.
908
00:46:46,095 --> 00:46:48,681
Let's fuck!
909
00:46:48,681 --> 00:46:51,559
I'll fuck anything that moves!
910
00:46:51,559 --> 00:46:52,685
[Laughs]
911
00:46:52,685 --> 00:46:54,145
[Tires squeal ]
912
00:46:54,145 --> 00:46:55,396
WATERS: And even though
I think our films
913
00:46:55,396 --> 00:46:56,981
are very, very different,
914
00:46:56,981 --> 00:46:59,859
I think that we are
certainly kindred spirits
915
00:46:59,859 --> 00:47:01,777
and have the same
sense of humour.
916
00:47:01,777 --> 00:47:03,654
Wear!
917
00:47:03,654 --> 00:47:05,740
Your seat belt!
918
00:47:05,740 --> 00:47:07,575
It's the law!
919
00:47:09,118 --> 00:47:11,996
[ Screaming ]
920
00:47:11,996 --> 00:47:16,167
Don't you ever fucking tailgate!
921
00:47:16,167 --> 00:47:18,085
-Ever!
-Tell him you won't tailgate.
922
00:47:18,085 --> 00:47:19,587
Evefl
923
00:47:19,587 --> 00:47:22,089
WATERS: My favourite thing
that David said is that --
924
00:47:22,089 --> 00:47:24,884
that he loves making the movie,
he loves editing,
925
00:47:24,884 --> 00:47:26,552
he loves thinking it out.
926
00:47:26,552 --> 00:47:29,722
But then it's released
and the heartbreak begins.
927
00:47:29,722 --> 00:47:31,849
[Laughs]
928
00:47:31,849 --> 00:47:33,476
What a great line.
929
00:47:33,476 --> 00:47:36,479
I know the feeling.
930
00:47:36,479 --> 00:47:40,441
I would have loved to have
met him with Margaret Hamilton
931
00:47:40,441 --> 00:47:41,650
while she was alive.
932
00:47:41,650 --> 00:47:43,652
That would have been the best.
933
00:47:43,652 --> 00:47:46,655
[ Sombre music plays ]
934
00:47:59,627 --> 00:48:02,171
KUSAMA: I was once a struggling
artist in New York City
935
00:48:02,171 --> 00:48:04,924
and waited tables at a diner.
936
00:48:04,924 --> 00:48:09,011
David Lynch would come in
as a customer.
937
00:48:09,011 --> 00:48:12,765
I was just so fascinated
that he always ordered pancakes
938
00:48:12,765 --> 00:48:14,767
and used a lot of maple syrup.
939
00:48:14,767 --> 00:48:17,103
Short stack of griddle cakes,
melt butter, maple syrup,
940
00:48:17,103 --> 00:48:18,729
lightly heated, slice of ham.
941
00:48:18,729 --> 00:48:20,439
Nothing beats
the taste sensation
942
00:48:20,439 --> 00:48:23,025
when maple syrup
collides with ham.
943
00:48:23,025 --> 00:48:25,611
KUSAMA: He's quite handsome,
almost a caricature
944
00:48:25,611 --> 00:48:27,988
of Midwestern courtesy
and bluntness,
945
00:48:27,988 --> 00:48:31,033
which I think we see
in some of his Q&As.
946
00:48:31,033 --> 00:48:32,952
Do you want some more pie?
A whole pie?
947
00:48:32,952 --> 00:48:34,370
Yes, I would, Miss Johnson.
948
00:48:34,370 --> 00:48:36,914
And a piece of paper
and a pencil.
949
00:48:36,914 --> 00:48:39,041
I plan on writing
an epic poem about
950
00:48:39,083 --> 00:48:41,043
this gorgeous pie.
951
00:48:41,043 --> 00:48:43,462
KUSAMA:In 2001 , I went to see
"Mulholland Drive"
952
00:48:43,462 --> 00:48:45,548
at the New York Film Festival,
953
00:48:45,548 --> 00:48:47,174
and then Lynch came out
at the end
954
00:48:47,174 --> 00:48:49,635
and he spoke about the movie
quite elliptically,
955
00:48:49,635 --> 00:48:51,053
as he is won't to do.
956
00:48:51,053 --> 00:48:54,974
No hay band a.
957
00:48:54,974 --> 00:48:58,644
There is no band.
958
00:48:58,644 --> 00:49:00,438
KUSAMA: I remember somebody
had asked him,
959
00:49:00,438 --> 00:49:02,523
"What does the film mean?"
960
00:49:02,523 --> 00:49:05,943
And his response was,
"Well, I think you know."
961
00:49:05,943 --> 00:49:07,194
And that was it.
962
00:49:07,194 --> 00:49:08,779
I know you hate saying
963
00:49:08,779 --> 00:49:10,489
what things mean
in your films,
964
00:49:10,489 --> 00:49:11,866
but am I right in thinking
965
00:49:11,866 --> 00:49:15,411
that that's at least
in the right area?
966
00:49:15,411 --> 00:49:17,121
-No.
-[ Laughter]
967
00:49:20,416 --> 00:49:22,626
KUSAMA: And then a guy asked,
"Can you talk about
968
00:49:22,626 --> 00:49:24,503
your relationship
to 'The Wizard of Oz'
969
00:49:24,503 --> 00:49:26,922
in relation to
'Mulholland Drive'?"
970
00:49:26,922 --> 00:49:28,841
And his response was,
971
00:49:28,841 --> 00:49:32,344
"There is not a day
that goes by that
972
00:49:32,344 --> 00:49:35,723
I don't think about
'The Wizard of Oz.'"
973
00:49:35,723 --> 00:49:38,476
I will say that it was one of
those watershed moments for me
974
00:49:38,476 --> 00:49:41,604
as a filmmaker to understand
his sense of humility
975
00:49:41,604 --> 00:49:44,064
in front of another
piece of art.
976
00:49:44,064 --> 00:49:46,817
Because he said it
with a kind of childlike wonder,
977
00:49:46,817 --> 00:49:50,112
in all of my subsequent viewings
of "Mulholland Drive,"
978
00:49:50,112 --> 00:49:51,363
I've always thought of it as
979
00:49:51,363 --> 00:49:53,949
a companion piece
to "Wizard of Oz."
980
00:49:53,949 --> 00:49:57,495
Part of that has to do with
perhaps a left turn away from,
981
00:49:57,495 --> 00:50:01,373
"on-the-nose gestures"
of a film like "Wild at Heart"
982
00:50:01,373 --> 00:50:04,043
and something more
about its structure.
983
00:50:04,043 --> 00:50:07,963
This idea of the dream within
the consciousness of a character
984
00:50:07,963 --> 00:50:10,716
essentially comprising
two-thirds of the film,
985
00:50:10,716 --> 00:50:13,385
a dreamscape
given narrative life.
986
00:50:13,385 --> 00:50:15,930
"Mulholland Drive"
is an exploration
987
00:50:15,930 --> 00:50:18,307
of a character named
Betty Wilkes,
988
00:50:18,307 --> 00:50:20,476
a fresh-faced aspiring actor
989
00:50:20,476 --> 00:50:23,187
who comes to Hollywood
to make it big.
990
00:50:23,187 --> 00:50:25,397
She immediately meets
a cast of characters
991
00:50:25,397 --> 00:50:29,193
who are also searching
for something themselves,
992
00:50:29,193 --> 00:50:31,570
and she's immediately thrust
into mysteries
993
00:50:31,570 --> 00:50:33,531
beyond her comprehension
994
00:50:33,531 --> 00:50:37,618
and romance that's unexpected
and somewhat unruly.
995
00:50:37,618 --> 00:50:40,538
And in the process
of investigating this mystery,
996
00:50:40,538 --> 00:50:42,081
we learn about another woman
997
00:50:42,122 --> 00:50:44,542
who looks very much
like Betty Wilkes
998
00:50:44,542 --> 00:50:46,794
named Diane Selwyn.
999
00:50:46,794 --> 00:50:50,256
And we learn about a kind of
shadow world that she lives in
1000
00:50:50,256 --> 00:50:52,007
that's very much like Betty's,
1001
00:50:52,007 --> 00:50:54,718
but the failed version
of Betty's life.
1002
00:50:57,137 --> 00:50:59,014
Camilla.
1003
00:51:02,101 --> 00:51:04,144
You've come back.
1004
00:51:05,187 --> 00:51:07,773
KUSAMA: We're given access
to the fantasy and the dreams
1005
00:51:07,773 --> 00:51:10,067
and the hopes
of Betty's character.
1006
00:51:10,067 --> 00:51:12,861
And then by pulling
the lid off of that,
1007
00:51:12,861 --> 00:51:15,030
we realise that there is a hope
for something
1008
00:51:15,030 --> 00:51:18,367
that never happened in
the character of Diane Selwyn.
1009
00:51:18,367 --> 00:51:20,286
It's as if Lynch is saying,
1010
00:51:20,286 --> 00:51:22,580
"We're not going to learn
as much about this character
1011
00:51:22,580 --> 00:51:25,040
by watching her in
her dank Hollywood apartment,
1012
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:26,500
planning a murder,
1013
00:51:26,500 --> 00:51:29,628
haunted by the odiousness
of her own thoughts.
1014
00:51:29,628 --> 00:51:31,630
We're going to learn
so much more about her
1015
00:51:31,630 --> 00:51:34,675
seeing her
as the best version of herself."
1016
00:51:34,675 --> 00:51:36,510
10 bucks says you're Betty.
1017
00:51:36,510 --> 00:51:39,221
Yes, I am, Mrs. Lenoir.
1018
00:51:39,221 --> 00:51:41,724
KUSAMA: The most capable,
the most talented,
1019
00:51:41,724 --> 00:51:43,726
the most hopeful and loving.
1020
00:51:45,936 --> 00:51:49,356
Thanks.
1021
00:51:49,356 --> 00:51:52,610
Diane.
1022
00:51:52,610 --> 00:51:54,153
KUSAMA: And in the process,
1023
00:51:54,153 --> 00:51:56,280
we're going to see
Diane's imagination
1024
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,407
of a better version
of her girlfriend,
1025
00:51:58,407 --> 00:52:00,951
which is so heartbreaking.
1026
00:52:00,951 --> 00:52:02,620
What's your name?
1027
00:52:02,620 --> 00:52:04,330
KUSAMA: And the way to get
to that better version
1028
00:52:04,330 --> 00:52:08,167
of the girlfriend is to strip
her of all of her identity.
1029
00:52:08,167 --> 00:52:12,087
Diane Selwyn.
Maybe that's my name.
1030
00:52:12,087 --> 00:52:15,341
There's something so deeply
moving about this strategy
1031
00:52:15,341 --> 00:52:18,552
because it's saying sometimes
we learn more about a character
1032
00:52:18,552 --> 00:52:22,181
not from their reality,
but from their dreams.
1033
00:52:22,222 --> 00:52:24,808
COWBOY: Hey, pretty girl.
1034
00:52:24,808 --> 00:52:28,646
Time to wake up.
1035
00:52:28,646 --> 00:52:31,190
KUSAMA: "Mulholland Drive"
is an inverse of "Oz,"
1036
00:52:31,190 --> 00:52:33,484
in that the home
we return our Dorothy to,
1037
00:52:33,484 --> 00:52:35,527
in this case, Diane Selwyn's,
1038
00:52:35,527 --> 00:52:38,530
is not one
she wants to return to.
1039
00:52:38,530 --> 00:52:43,369
It's a much darker register
of the "Oz" narrative.
1040
00:52:43,369 --> 00:52:45,704
I was so struck
watching the movie again
1041
00:52:45,704 --> 00:52:49,124
by how it is such a merciless
depiction of Hollywood.
1042
00:52:49,124 --> 00:52:52,336
It seems to be such
a personal film for Lynch.
1043
00:52:52,336 --> 00:52:56,131
You feel a sense of deep,
almost anticipatory wounding
1044
00:52:56,131 --> 00:52:58,801
in him in his depiction
of Hollywood.
1045
00:52:58,801 --> 00:53:00,928
There ain't no way
that girl is in my movie.
1046
00:53:00,928 --> 00:53:04,807
[ Shouts indistinctly]
1047
00:53:04,807 --> 00:53:06,141
This is the girl.
1048
00:53:06,141 --> 00:53:09,395
Hey.
That girl is not in my film.
1049
00:53:12,398 --> 00:53:14,149
It's no longer your film.
1050
00:53:14,149 --> 00:53:16,151
KUSAMA: And to me,
there's nothing more nightmarish
1051
00:53:16,151 --> 00:53:18,195
than the moment
that the director says,
1052
00:53:18,195 --> 00:53:19,947
"This is the girl,"
1053
00:53:19,947 --> 00:53:22,616
because you understand
he has surrendered his agency
1054
00:53:22,616 --> 00:53:26,704
to larger forces as a way
to just stay in the game.
1055
00:53:26,704 --> 00:53:28,914
There is almost nothing
more brutally truthful
1056
00:53:28,914 --> 00:53:31,500
about the process
of making movies in Hollywood
1057
00:53:31,500 --> 00:53:33,043
than that moment.
1058
00:53:33,043 --> 00:53:36,964
Might as well be a documentary
as far as I'm concerned.
1059
00:53:36,964 --> 00:53:39,550
When you don't have final cut,
1060
00:53:39,550 --> 00:53:42,177
total creative freedom,
1061
00:53:42,177 --> 00:53:46,140
you stand to die
the death.
1062
00:53:46,140 --> 00:53:48,642
Dying the death.
1063
00:53:48,642 --> 00:53:53,188
And died, I did.
1064
00:53:53,188 --> 00:53:55,774
KUSAMA: I just think there's so
many things in Lynch's work
1065
00:53:55,774 --> 00:53:57,860
that are speaking back to "Oz,"
1066
00:53:57,860 --> 00:54:00,863
and they show up
so profoundly in this film,
1067
00:54:00,863 --> 00:54:03,866
like Rebecca del Rio
lip-syncing the Spanish version
1068
00:54:03,866 --> 00:54:06,326
of Roy Orbison's "Crying."
1069
00:54:06,326 --> 00:54:10,372
It's like hearing Judy Garland's
incredible recorded real voice
1070
00:54:10,372 --> 00:54:14,543
lip-syncing to herself
singing "Over the Rainbow."
1071
00:54:14,543 --> 00:54:16,295
It's foundational in "Oz,"
1072
00:54:16,295 --> 00:54:18,464
but it's also foundational
in Lynch
1073
00:54:18,464 --> 00:54:20,841
to watch characters lip-synch.
1074
00:54:20,841 --> 00:54:23,761
I just feel that as a kid,
he must have been aware
1075
00:54:23,761 --> 00:54:26,513
that Garland was moving
her mouth to a recording
1076
00:54:26,513 --> 00:54:28,807
of her own voice.
1077
00:54:28,807 --> 00:54:30,726
The drama
and the uncanny weirdness
1078
00:54:30,726 --> 00:54:32,811
of that Rebecca del Rio
performance,
1079
00:54:32,811 --> 00:54:34,521
that's all "Oz."
1080
00:54:34,521 --> 00:54:37,691
The blue-haired lady,
that's all "Oz."
1081
00:54:37,691 --> 00:54:40,360
There's a couple of
extraordinary moments in "Oz"
1082
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:43,071
where you just get close-ups of
the Witch's face,
1083
00:54:43,071 --> 00:54:45,908
of the Tin Man,
and the Cowardly Lion,
1084
00:54:45,908 --> 00:54:49,369
where you really see
the artifice of the makeup.
1085
00:54:49,369 --> 00:54:51,455
When Lynch plays
with those gestures,
1086
00:54:51,455 --> 00:54:52,998
I think they are intentional.
1087
00:54:52,998 --> 00:54:55,834
Thinking about movies like
"Fire Walk with Me,"
1088
00:54:55,834 --> 00:54:58,879
where Lynch will do something
so simple as Laura Palmer
1089
00:54:58,879 --> 00:55:02,257
talking to her old boyfriend,
and he does a hard cut to her
1090
00:55:02,257 --> 00:55:04,551
wearing black lipstick
and laughing
1091
00:55:04,551 --> 00:55:08,806
and then cuts out of it,
it is so scary, so shocking.
1092
00:55:08,806 --> 00:55:11,225
That kind of simple
makeup gesture
1093
00:55:11,225 --> 00:55:14,728
truly going back
to the origins of theatre.
1094
00:55:14,728 --> 00:55:16,897
He's looking back
at the green-faced witch
1095
00:55:16,897 --> 00:55:19,983
when he puts that black lipstick
on Laura Palmer.
1096
00:55:19,983 --> 00:55:22,152
And I think the same is true
with the man
1097
00:55:22,152 --> 00:55:24,154
who I believe
is actually a woman
1098
00:55:24,154 --> 00:55:27,449
behind Winkie's
in "Mulholland Drive."
1099
00:55:27,449 --> 00:55:29,827
It's a gesture
of theatrical artifice,
1100
00:55:29,827 --> 00:55:32,246
but also something
emotionally more true
1101
00:55:32,246 --> 00:55:33,747
than just seeing
a guy back there
1102
00:55:33,747 --> 00:55:36,458
roasting hot dogs or squirrels.
1103
00:55:36,458 --> 00:55:39,753
That black makeup
with the red-ringed eyes.
1104
00:55:39,753 --> 00:55:43,966
It's such a strong,
strange, deeply bold choice.
1105
00:55:43,966 --> 00:55:46,468
And I feel like that kind of
choice is directly influenced
1106
00:55:46,468 --> 00:55:48,095
by some of the wildness
1107
00:55:48,095 --> 00:55:51,306
that we've come to take
for granted in "Oz."
1108
00:55:51,306 --> 00:55:53,308
What I think is perhaps
a through line
1109
00:55:53,308 --> 00:55:56,144
between "Oz" and the films
Lynch has made
1110
00:55:56,144 --> 00:55:58,522
is this kind
of unconscious courage
1111
00:55:58,522 --> 00:56:00,065
that the character is willing
1112
00:56:00,065 --> 00:56:03,068
to keep opening doors
they shouldn't be opening,
1113
00:56:03,068 --> 00:56:05,863
to keep going to addresses
they shouldn't go,
1114
00:56:05,863 --> 00:56:09,867
to keep spying on
those they should not spy on.
1115
00:56:09,867 --> 00:56:12,160
They invite chaos
into their life
1116
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:14,204
because they have to know.
1117
00:56:14,204 --> 00:56:15,914
I'm involved in a mystery.
1118
00:56:15,914 --> 00:56:18,333
I'm in the middle of a mystery.
1119
00:56:18,333 --> 00:56:21,545
And it's all secret.
1120
00:56:21,545 --> 00:56:24,631
KUSAMA: He applies the quotidian
narrative trope of the detective
1121
00:56:24,631 --> 00:56:26,425
to many of his films,
1122
00:56:26,425 --> 00:56:30,095
characters who are detectives of
metaphysical mysteries,
1123
00:56:30,095 --> 00:56:35,058
cosmic mysteries, sometimes
to their great peril or horror.
1124
00:56:35,058 --> 00:56:39,229
Gordon! Gordon!
1125
00:56:39,229 --> 00:56:41,398
KUSAMA: And if you think
about Dorothy and Oz,
1126
00:56:41,398 --> 00:56:45,527
she's a child detective with
her dog and a picnic basket.
1127
00:56:45,527 --> 00:56:48,363
She's being asked to go
on this insane journey
1128
00:56:48,363 --> 00:56:52,367
and trust to follow
that yellow brick road.
1129
00:56:52,743 --> 00:56:55,913
Part of the irony to me when
I think about "The Wizard of Oz"
1130
00:56:55,913 --> 00:56:58,290
is I think of it
as forever coupled, of course,
1131
00:56:58,290 --> 00:57:00,250
with "Gone With the Wind,"
1132
00:57:00,250 --> 00:57:02,461
these two completely
foundational works
1133
00:57:02,461 --> 00:57:05,797
made by the same person
and released in the same year.
1134
00:57:05,797 --> 00:57:09,468
It's a strange statement
about the American unconscious.
1135
00:57:09,468 --> 00:57:12,262
Home.
1136
00:57:12,262 --> 00:57:14,389
I'll go home.
1137
00:57:14,389 --> 00:57:17,017
And I'll think of some way
to get him back.
1138
00:57:18,894 --> 00:57:20,938
KUSAMA: And when you look
at Lynch's films,
1139
00:57:20,938 --> 00:57:23,774
which are so driven
by a law of the unconscious,
1140
00:57:23,774 --> 00:57:27,069
why wouldn't "Oz" be
the foundational text for him?
1141
00:57:27,069 --> 00:57:28,654
I do wonder if he would have
found his way
1142
00:57:28,654 --> 00:57:30,280
towards some version
1143
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:33,617
of what is his inimitable
style over time anyway
1144
00:57:33,617 --> 00:57:36,745
but that "Oz" gave him
permission to think so big,
1145
00:57:36,745 --> 00:57:39,414
to think so wildly
and off the map.
1146
00:57:39,414 --> 00:57:42,042
I don't think it's so unusual
to find new inspiration
1147
00:57:42,042 --> 00:57:45,087
or comforting lessons
in a single work.
1148
00:57:45,087 --> 00:57:47,464
In the same way
that we might consult the Bible,
1149
00:57:47,464 --> 00:57:50,342
I think "Oz" has served as some
kind of foundational text
1150
00:57:50,342 --> 00:57:51,385
for Lynch.
1151
00:57:51,385 --> 00:57:53,261
I really do.
1152
00:57:53,261 --> 00:57:57,432
His body of work is braided with
gestures and moments in "Oz,"
1153
00:57:57,432 --> 00:58:00,519
which have burned their way
into Lynch's creative mind.
1154
00:58:02,646 --> 00:58:06,817
My sense is that his work
is governed by irrationality
1155
00:58:06,817 --> 00:58:09,528
and that he arrives
at some of his best ideas
1156
00:58:09,528 --> 00:58:11,363
through a trip
into his unconscious
1157
00:58:11,363 --> 00:58:13,573
as opposed
to his conscious mind.
1158
00:58:17,869 --> 00:58:20,372
In some of his work,
he's proving the theorem
1159
00:58:20,372 --> 00:58:22,249
that once we see certain works
1160
00:58:22,249 --> 00:58:24,793
and once certain images
and story passages
1161
00:58:24,793 --> 00:58:27,421
and characters
are burned into our brain,
1162
00:58:27,421 --> 00:58:29,172
there is no unseeing.
1163
00:58:29,172 --> 00:58:32,968
And somehow that work
has landed in our DNA.
1164
00:58:32,968 --> 00:58:36,722
And for him, there's just
a lot more of "Oz" in his DNA
1165
00:58:36,722 --> 00:58:39,099
than there is
in another filmmaker.
1166
00:58:39,099 --> 00:58:40,684
There are so many gestures
that I wonder
1167
00:58:40,726 --> 00:58:42,602
if Lynch himself would say,
1168
00:58:42,602 --> 00:58:45,856
"I love to watch people singing
lip-synch songs," for instance,
1169
00:58:45,856 --> 00:58:48,942
which happens in at least
every other one of his movies
1170
00:58:48,942 --> 00:58:51,570
and sometimes within his movies
multiple times
1171
00:58:51,570 --> 00:58:54,781
as in "Mulho||and Drive,"
and always in front of curtains.
1172
00:58:54,781 --> 00:59:01,747
♪ And I'll see you ♪
1173
00:59:01,747 --> 00:59:06,251
♪ And you see me ♪
1174
00:59:06,251 --> 00:59:08,879
♪ And I'll see you ♪
1175
00:59:12,090 --> 00:59:15,218
KUSAMA: I just wonder if that's
his dream of "The Wizard of Oz."
1176
00:59:15,218 --> 00:59:16,720
Do you know what I mean?
1177
00:59:19,431 --> 00:59:21,016
Like in his dream life,
1178
00:59:21,016 --> 00:59:23,518
that's how "The Wizard of Oz"
has landed,
1179
00:59:23,518 --> 00:59:27,064
as a Dorothy in front of
curtains, as a torch singer,
1180
00:59:27,064 --> 00:59:30,609
not a 12-year-old farm girl
in a gingham dress.
1181
00:59:30,609 --> 00:59:35,280
WOMAN: ♪ ...in velvet were I ♪
1182
00:59:36,656 --> 00:59:45,874
♪ Somewhere over the rainbow ♪
1183
00:59:45,874 --> 00:59:48,794
KUSAMA: But part of what I think
is so juicy about this idea
1184
00:59:48,794 --> 00:59:51,088
that he is so influenced
by the film
1185
00:59:51,088 --> 00:59:54,174
is the meta story
beyond "The Wizard of Oz."
1186
00:59:54,174 --> 00:59:56,301
It's the story of Judy Garland.
1187
00:59:56,301 --> 00:59:58,303
Her brilliance, her greatness.
1188
00:59:58,303 --> 01:00:00,388
The deep betrayal
that she experienced
1189
01:00:00,388 --> 01:00:02,432
as a genius in Hollywood.
1190
01:00:02,432 --> 01:00:06,311
The tragedy of her life,
the wreckage of her life.
1191
01:00:06,311 --> 01:00:11,066
You don't know what it's like
to watch somebody you love
1192
01:00:11,066 --> 01:00:14,027
just crumble away bit by bit,
1193
01:00:14,027 --> 01:00:17,823
day by day,
in front of your eyes.
1194
01:00:17,823 --> 01:00:20,283
KUSAMA: I think that is
as influential to Lynch
1195
01:00:20,283 --> 01:00:22,577
-as the film itself.
-Good night, baby.
1196
01:00:22,577 --> 01:00:25,914
KUSAMA: It's the story
outside of the story.
1197
01:00:25,914 --> 01:00:28,500
And that is so much Lynch to me,
1198
01:00:28,500 --> 01:00:30,043
that he's always
telling the story
1199
01:00:30,043 --> 01:00:33,088
outside of the story
and sort of saying,
1200
01:00:33,088 --> 01:00:36,341
"But it gets bigger.
It expands."
1201
01:00:39,010 --> 01:00:41,471
And "Mulholland Drive" to me
is one of those movies
1202
01:00:41,471 --> 01:00:43,431
where he completely sticks
the landing
1203
01:00:43,431 --> 01:00:45,016
in terms of proposing
1204
01:00:45,016 --> 01:00:48,019
a world of great possibilities
and great mystery
1205
01:00:48,019 --> 01:00:52,399
and then actually showing it
to us the way that "Oz" does.
1206
01:00:52,399 --> 01:00:55,694
-Howdy.
-Howdy to you.
1207
01:00:55,694 --> 01:00:56,903
KUSAMA: The scene that
stands out for me
1208
01:00:56,903 --> 01:00:58,697
as it relates
to Dorothy and "Oz"
1209
01:00:58,697 --> 01:01:01,199
is the masterful scene
of Betty auditioning.
1210
01:01:01,199 --> 01:01:04,411
First watching her play the
scene with the Rita character,
1211
01:01:04,411 --> 01:01:08,123
reading the lines horribly
and being clearly not an actor,
1212
01:01:08,123 --> 01:01:09,916
which is its own sort of
wish fulfilment
1213
01:01:09,916 --> 01:01:11,376
on Diane Selwyn's part.
1214
01:01:11,376 --> 01:01:13,170
So get out of here before --
1215
01:01:15,547 --> 01:01:16,548
B-Before what?
1216
01:01:16,548 --> 01:01:20,135
Before I kill you.
1217
01:01:20,135 --> 01:01:22,304
Then they'd put you in jail.
1218
01:01:23,638 --> 01:01:26,141
[Laughs]
1219
01:01:26,141 --> 01:01:28,059
KUSAMA: There's something
so inspirational to me
1220
01:01:28,059 --> 01:01:29,728
about watching
her transformation
1221
01:01:29,728 --> 01:01:31,062
in that audition scene
1222
01:01:31,062 --> 01:01:33,565
and playing the character
so differently.
1223
01:01:33,565 --> 01:01:35,817
Get out of here before...
1224
01:01:35,817 --> 01:01:38,195
KUSAMA:
Reinterpreting the scene,
1225
01:01:38,195 --> 01:01:41,198
giving us another window
into what that scene could be.
1226
01:01:41,198 --> 01:01:43,742
Before what?
1227
01:01:43,742 --> 01:01:45,952
KUSAMA: This is like
the crystallization to me
1228
01:01:45,952 --> 01:01:48,121
of Lynch's work in a nutshell,
1229
01:01:48,121 --> 01:01:51,124
which is this idea
of multiple realities,
1230
01:01:51,124 --> 01:01:54,127
but also multiple
interpretations as the rule,
1231
01:01:54,127 --> 01:01:55,795
not the exception.
1232
01:01:55,795 --> 01:01:58,215
A multiplicity of possibilities.
1233
01:01:58,215 --> 01:02:01,134
[ Breathing heavily ]
1234
01:02:01,134 --> 01:02:05,847
Before I kill you.
1235
01:02:05,847 --> 01:02:07,933
KUSAMA: It's thrilling
to see her become an actor
1236
01:02:07,933 --> 01:02:10,101
we had no idea she could be
1237
01:02:10,101 --> 01:02:13,647
after watching a kind of
meta performance by Naomi Watts
1238
01:02:13,647 --> 01:02:16,858
that's almost frustratingly
naive and golly gee,
1239
01:02:16,858 --> 01:02:19,402
gee whiz in a way
that makes it hard to be
1240
01:02:19,402 --> 01:02:23,031
in a real kind of relationship
to her as a character.
1241
01:02:23,031 --> 01:02:26,117
And then to see
this unexpected complexity --
1242
01:02:26,117 --> 01:02:30,288
that to me felt like a central
instinct in Lynch's work.
1243
01:02:30,288 --> 01:02:33,708
To say that we quite
literally contain multitudes.
1244
01:02:33,708 --> 01:02:35,627
And there is so much more
to all of us
1245
01:02:35,627 --> 01:02:37,837
than we give ourselves
credit for.
1246
01:02:37,837 --> 01:02:40,215
And part of how I think
that relates to "Oz"
1247
01:02:40,215 --> 01:02:43,593
are those moments of Dorothy
having to summon the courage,
1248
01:02:43,593 --> 01:02:46,596
the abject despair
of never getting home,
1249
01:02:46,596 --> 01:02:48,682
having to be present in Oz,
1250
01:02:48,682 --> 01:02:51,768
even though she may
never leave Oz.
1251
01:02:51,768 --> 01:02:53,520
I'm frightened.
1252
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:58,024
I'm frightened, Auntie Em.
I'm frightened.
1253
01:02:58,024 --> 01:03:00,527
KUSAMA: And at least she has
the Tin Man and Scarecrow
1254
01:03:00,527 --> 01:03:03,071
and the Cowardly Lion
as friends.
1255
01:03:03,071 --> 01:03:05,824
There's something about that
journey that is so unexpected
1256
01:03:05,824 --> 01:03:10,245
that she becomes such a hero,
this little girl, Dorothy Gale.
1257
01:03:10,245 --> 01:03:12,455
But I just feel like
that must be something that,
1258
01:03:12,455 --> 01:03:16,501
in the best way, infected
a young David Lynch's mind
1259
01:03:16,501 --> 01:03:20,338
and allowed him or inspired him
to create characters
1260
01:03:20,338 --> 01:03:22,757
with as much possibility
in them.
1261
01:03:22,757 --> 01:03:25,468
Come on, it'll be
just like in the movies.
1262
01:03:25,468 --> 01:03:28,096
I'll pretend to be someone else.
1263
01:03:28,096 --> 01:03:30,056
KUSAMA: As much as
"Mulholland Drive" devastated me
1264
01:03:30,056 --> 01:03:31,349
when I first saw it,
1265
01:03:31,349 --> 01:03:32,976
and as much as
it frightened me --
1266
01:03:32,976 --> 01:03:35,770
like, to my core,
that movie shook me --
1267
01:03:35,770 --> 01:03:38,356
I now see a tremendous
amount of hope in it
1268
01:03:38,356 --> 01:03:41,443
because I feel like Lynch
is giving us, the audience,
1269
01:03:41,443 --> 01:03:44,654
access to the best versions
of those characters.
1270
01:03:44,654 --> 01:03:46,906
The most interesting.
The most inspiring.
1271
01:03:46,906 --> 01:03:48,742
The most hopeful.
1272
01:03:48,742 --> 01:03:51,786
You look like someone else.
1273
01:03:51,786 --> 01:03:54,122
KUSAMA: He's actually kind of
an optimist to me.
1274
01:03:54,122 --> 01:03:56,333
And that movie proves it
in my mind.
1275
01:03:56,333 --> 01:03:58,126
As dark as it is,
1276
01:03:58,126 --> 01:04:01,087
I see it as
a very optimistic film.
1277
01:04:01,087 --> 01:04:03,798
I really think
he identifies with Dorothy.
1278
01:04:03,798 --> 01:04:06,760
But who knows?
He might be somebody who says,
1279
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:09,262
"And I have the witch
in me, too.
1280
01:04:09,262 --> 01:04:10,847
And I have the Cowardly Lion.
1281
01:04:10,847 --> 01:04:13,600
And I have the sham wizard."
1282
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:16,728
I think he has all of
those characters in him.
1283
01:04:16,728 --> 01:04:19,105
We all do,
I think is what he's saying.
1284
01:04:19,105 --> 01:04:20,982
We have all of them in us.
1285
01:04:28,114 --> 01:04:31,076
[ Down-tempo music plays ]
1286
01:04:40,752 --> 01:04:42,295
BENSON: There are plenty of
movies that follow
1287
01:04:42,295 --> 01:04:45,507
the Hero's Journey as outlined
by Joseph Campbell,
1288
01:04:45,507 --> 01:04:47,509
but a number of them
more specifically
1289
01:04:47,509 --> 01:04:49,010
seem to follow the formula
1290
01:04:49,010 --> 01:04:51,763
and the vernacular
of "The Wizard of Oz."
1291
01:04:57,018 --> 01:04:59,729
I'm melting! Melting!
1292
01:04:59,729 --> 01:05:02,857
Shrieks ]
1293
01:05:02,857 --> 01:05:07,362
I don't care about money.
I'm pulling back the curtain.
1294
01:05:07,362 --> 01:05:09,114
I want to meet the wizard.
1295
01:05:09,114 --> 01:05:11,449
I want your dog.
1296
01:05:11,449 --> 01:05:14,327
[Whines]
1297
01:05:14,327 --> 01:05:15,870
Barney?
1298
01:05:15,870 --> 01:05:18,498
Give him to me.
1299
01:05:18,498 --> 01:05:20,500
BENSON: That film touches almost
every single genre
1300
01:05:20,500 --> 01:05:21,501
we can think of.
1301
01:05:21,501 --> 01:05:24,170
It has adventure...
1302
01:05:24,170 --> 01:05:26,256
Seize them!
1303
01:05:26,256 --> 01:05:27,882
BENSON: ...musical...
1304
01:05:27,882 --> 01:05:30,760
[ Upbeat music plays ]
1305
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:33,304
...comedy...
1306
01:05:33,304 --> 01:05:35,432
Oh! Oh!
1307
01:05:35,432 --> 01:05:37,267
BENSON: ...drama...
1308
01:05:37,267 --> 01:05:40,562
[ Dramatic music plays]
1309
01:05:40,562 --> 01:05:42,272
...science fiction...
1310
01:05:42,272 --> 01:05:44,649
[ Dramatic music plays]
1311
01:05:44,649 --> 01:05:46,359
...even horror.
1312
01:05:46,359 --> 01:05:49,737
-[ Flying monkeys hooting ]
-Help, help, help!
1313
01:05:49,737 --> 01:05:52,699
BENSON: Take "The Big Leb0wski,"
1314
01:05:52,699 --> 01:05:55,452
which is this extraordinarily
"Wizard of Oz"-ian tale.
1315
01:05:55,452 --> 01:05:58,538
It's a comedy
and it's a stoner comedy.
1316
01:05:58,538 --> 01:06:02,625
Here you have an unwilling
protagonist like Dorothy
1317
01:06:02,625 --> 01:06:06,045
swept up in a whirlwind
that he doesn't understand...
1318
01:06:06,045 --> 01:06:08,631
Where's the money, Lebowski?
1319
01:06:08,631 --> 01:06:10,884
BENSON: ...into a different
world that is so much deeper
1320
01:06:10,884 --> 01:06:14,721
and darker than his relatively
simple, pedestrian existence.
1321
01:06:14,721 --> 01:06:16,931
And he meets a cast
of magical characters
1322
01:06:16,931 --> 01:06:19,767
that give him secret knowledge
that, interestingly,
1323
01:06:19,767 --> 01:06:22,312
a lot of them had
all along inside themselves.
1324
01:06:22,312 --> 01:06:24,189
Sometimes you eat the bar
and...
1325
01:06:24,189 --> 01:06:27,275
Much obliged.
1326
01:06:27,275 --> 01:06:31,821
...sometimes the bar,
well, he eats you.
1327
01:06:32,614 --> 01:06:35,783
MOORHEAD: And at the other end
of the genre spectrum,
1328
01:06:35,783 --> 01:06:38,161
we've got films in the realm
of sci-fi and horror
1329
01:06:38,161 --> 01:06:40,955
and dark fantasy,
movies like "Suspiria,"
1330
01:06:40,955 --> 01:06:43,833
which actually shares a lot
with "The Wizard of Oz."
1331
01:06:43,833 --> 01:06:45,293
Here we have a young woman
going on a journey
1332
01:06:45,293 --> 01:06:50,381
into a surreal, bizarre,
even Technicolor world,
1333
01:06:50,381 --> 01:06:52,050
meeting several people
along the way
1334
01:06:52,050 --> 01:06:54,260
who will shape her
for the rest of her life.
1335
01:06:54,260 --> 01:06:57,263
[ Mystical music plays]
1336
01:06:59,974 --> 01:07:01,935
Guillermo del Toro's
"Pan's Labyrinth"
1337
01:07:01,935 --> 01:07:03,770
and "The Devil's Backbone"
1338
01:07:03,770 --> 01:07:06,606
also share a lot of similarities
with "The Wizard of Oz."
1339
01:07:06,606 --> 01:07:09,651
[ Speaking Spanish ]
1340
01:07:20,245 --> 01:07:21,538
MOORHEAD:
Here we have young people
1341
01:07:21,538 --> 01:07:23,915
going into these
dreamlike scenarios,
1342
01:07:23,915 --> 01:07:26,751
meeting a series of interesting
entities that shape them,
1343
01:07:26,751 --> 01:07:29,671
and coming out on the other side
changed in some way.
1344
01:07:29,671 --> 01:07:32,674
[ Speaking Spanish ]
1345
01:07:38,346 --> 01:07:39,889
BENSON: Martin Scorsese's
"After Hours"
1346
01:07:39,889 --> 01:07:41,683
feels like "The Wizard of Oz."
1347
01:07:41,683 --> 01:07:42,892
Would you just give me a break?
1348
01:07:42,892 --> 01:07:44,394
I really just want to go home.
1349
01:07:44,394 --> 01:07:46,020
I've got to get over that bar,
1350
01:07:46,020 --> 01:07:48,314
get my keys so I can get home.
1351
01:07:48,314 --> 01:07:49,857
Where do you live?
1352
01:07:49,857 --> 01:07:52,569
Can you take me --
Can you take me home?
1353
01:07:52,569 --> 01:07:54,821
BENSON: And "Alice Doesn't
Live Here Anymore"
1354
01:07:54,821 --> 01:07:57,198
is "The Wizard of Oz"
in so many ways.
1355
01:07:57,198 --> 01:08:00,118
We open on her sepia-toned
childhood in Monterey,
1356
01:08:00,118 --> 01:08:02,954
and the entire movie
is about going back home.
1357
01:08:02,954 --> 01:08:04,914
She eventually decides
to stay in Tucson,
1358
01:08:04,914 --> 01:08:06,666
but the final shot tells us
1359
01:08:06,666 --> 01:08:08,793
she found her new home,
so she is home.
1360
01:08:08,793 --> 01:08:11,588
Even a movie like
"Apocalypse Now"
1361
01:08:11,588 --> 01:08:14,549
has similarities
to "The Wizard of Oz."
1362
01:08:14,549 --> 01:08:16,551
But there's no home
in "Apocalypse Now."
1363
01:08:16,551 --> 01:08:18,678
-I mean, it starts in...
-WILLARD: Saigon.
1364
01:08:20,388 --> 01:08:23,808
Shit.
1365
01:08:23,808 --> 01:08:26,686
I'm still only in Saigon.
1366
01:08:26,686 --> 01:08:28,271
BENSON: And he really
doesn't want to be there.
1367
01:08:28,271 --> 01:08:32,567
So in a sense, he's started
in Oz after the tornado.
1368
01:08:32,567 --> 01:08:34,861
But he goes on a mystical,
psychedelic journey
1369
01:08:34,861 --> 01:08:36,946
in a foreign land
1370
01:08:36,946 --> 01:08:38,656
meeting a whole bunch
of strange people
1371
01:08:38,656 --> 01:08:40,158
that help him along the way...
1372
01:08:44,370 --> 01:08:47,874
...in order to find someone
who is basically a wizard.
1373
01:08:47,874 --> 01:08:51,836
Could we, uh,
talk to Colonel Kurtz?
1374
01:08:51,836 --> 01:08:56,090
Hey, man, you don't --
you don't talk to the Colonel.
1375
01:08:56,090 --> 01:08:58,343
Well -- Well, you listen to him.
1376
01:08:58,343 --> 01:09:00,303
BENSON: There's this monolithic,
powerful,
1377
01:09:00,303 --> 01:09:01,763
all-knowing Colonel Kurtz
1378
01:09:01,763 --> 01:09:05,391
that everyone speaks about
with reverence and fear.
1379
01:09:05,391 --> 01:09:08,269
And he turns out to be both
the wizard and the witch.
1380
01:09:10,688 --> 01:09:15,193
And then there's David Lynch,
who is by far the king
1381
01:09:15,193 --> 01:09:18,946
of weaving the visual
and auditory language,
1382
01:09:18,946 --> 01:09:21,783
the thematic and story language
of "The Wizard of Oz"
1383
01:09:21,783 --> 01:09:23,951
into his own work.
1384
01:09:23,951 --> 01:09:28,831
Oh, I had the strangest dream.
1385
01:09:31,668 --> 01:09:33,878
You were there.
1386
01:09:33,878 --> 01:09:38,007
And you, and you.
1387
01:09:38,007 --> 01:09:40,843
MOORHEAD: Taking "Twin Peaks"
season three, for example,
1388
01:09:40,843 --> 01:09:44,472
he has some spectacular,
very modern visual effects,
1389
01:09:44,472 --> 01:09:46,474
but he also uses a lot
of the same techniques
1390
01:09:46,474 --> 01:09:48,559
used in "The Wizard of Oz."
1391
01:09:48,559 --> 01:09:52,188
Old-school opacity transitioning
that no one uses anymore
1392
01:09:52,230 --> 01:09:55,108
unless you were trying
to make it look like
1393
01:09:55,108 --> 01:09:57,944
it was actually made
in the 1950s.
1394
01:09:57,944 --> 01:10:00,488
He knows he's choosing
an old-school effect.
1395
01:10:00,488 --> 01:10:04,659
This is David Lynch showing us
where the smoke machine is.
1396
01:10:04,659 --> 01:10:06,911
He is the wizard.
1397
01:10:06,911 --> 01:10:11,374
Why didn't you want
to talk about Judy?
1398
01:10:11,374 --> 01:10:13,418
Who is Judy?
1399
01:10:13,418 --> 01:10:17,755
Does Judy
want something from me?
1400
01:10:17,755 --> 01:10:21,551
JEFFRIES:
Why don't you ask Judy yourself?
1401
01:10:21,551 --> 01:10:24,429
Let me write it down for you.
1402
01:10:27,098 --> 01:10:28,850
MOORHEAD: You could say
that "The Wizard of Oz"
1403
01:10:28,850 --> 01:10:30,935
has been a more
powerful tool for Lynch
1404
01:10:30,935 --> 01:10:33,563
in making populist
surrealist entertainment
1405
01:10:33,563 --> 01:10:35,481
than Jesus Christ has been
1406
01:10:35,481 --> 01:10:37,567
for other surrealist filmmakers
1407
01:10:37,567 --> 01:10:40,069
like Jo do row sky or Bufiuel.
1408
01:10:40,069 --> 01:10:43,698
[ Screaming ]
1409
01:10:43,698 --> 01:10:46,701
[ Dramatic music plays]
1410
01:10:55,710 --> 01:10:57,545
MOORHEAD: But he is way too
gifted of an artist
1411
01:10:57,545 --> 01:11:00,506
and a filmmaker to just
regurgitate "The Wizard of Oz."
1412
01:11:00,506 --> 01:11:03,217
What he's doing is he's taking
what we all know about it,
1413
01:11:03,217 --> 01:11:05,720
and he's breaking it down
into its component parts
1414
01:11:05,720 --> 01:11:09,724
and remixing them either buried
deep down beneath in visuals
1415
01:11:09,724 --> 01:11:12,685
and themes and motifs
in basically all of his movies
1416
01:11:12,685 --> 01:11:15,521
or right at the surface
in "Wild at Heart."
1417
01:11:15,521 --> 01:11:18,024
Perhaps you might even picture
1418
01:11:18,024 --> 01:11:22,403
Toto from "The Wizard of Oz."
1419
01:11:22,403 --> 01:11:26,324
In my mind,
it hon ours this great film,
1420
01:11:26,324 --> 01:11:30,203
"The Wizard of Oz,"
which is a film
1421
01:11:30,203 --> 01:11:34,874
that's caused people to dream
now for decades.
1422
01:11:34,874 --> 01:11:37,293
And there's something about
"The Wizard of Oz"
1423
01:11:37,293 --> 01:11:40,046
that's cosmic.
1424
01:11:40,046 --> 01:11:44,967
And it talks to human beings
1425
01:11:44,967 --> 01:11:48,179
in a deep way.
1426
01:11:48,179 --> 01:11:50,223
MOORHEAD: What's interesting
about "Wild at Heart" is that
1427
01:11:50,223 --> 01:11:52,767
"The Wizard of Oz" exists
in the canon
1428
01:11:52,767 --> 01:11:56,813
and the mythology of its world.
1429
01:11:56,813 --> 01:11:58,481
It's too bad he couldn't...
1430
01:12:00,942 --> 01:12:03,444
...visit that old Wizard of Oz
and...
1431
01:12:06,155 --> 01:12:08,199
...hear some good advice.
1432
01:12:08,199 --> 01:12:12,620
There are no Munchkins
in the movie now, huh?
1433
01:12:12,620 --> 01:12:16,582
Yeah.
There was a Munchkin.
1434
01:12:16,582 --> 01:12:19,168
There was a Munchkin.
1435
01:12:19,168 --> 01:12:20,795
MOORHEAD: The characters in
"Wild at Heart"
1436
01:12:20,795 --> 01:12:23,965
have seen the movie
"The Wizard of Oz."
1437
01:12:23,965 --> 01:12:27,802
You ever think something
1438
01:12:27,802 --> 01:12:30,429
and hear a wind
1439
01:12:30,429 --> 01:12:32,557
and see the
Wicked Witch of the East
1440
01:12:32,557 --> 01:12:34,475
coming flying in?
1441
01:12:36,477 --> 01:12:38,938
MOORHEAD: And they use it as
the ideal of their own lives
1442
01:12:38,938 --> 01:12:40,565
that they can never get.
1443
01:12:40,565 --> 01:12:43,150
SAILOR: That kind of money
1444
01:12:43,150 --> 01:12:47,989
would get us a long way down
that yellow brick road.
1445
01:12:47,989 --> 01:12:50,783
Well, I know it ain't
exactly Emerald City.
1446
01:12:50,783 --> 01:12:53,035
MOORHEAD: They constantly
reference that movie,
1447
01:12:53,035 --> 01:12:56,706
and their idea of the comfort
of home is the idyllic movie
1448
01:12:56,706 --> 01:12:58,332
"The Wizard of Oz."
1449
01:12:58,332 --> 01:13:03,462
LULA: Oh, I wish I was
somewhere over the rainbow.
1450
01:13:03,462 --> 01:13:05,631
It's just shit.
1451
01:13:05,631 --> 01:13:07,550
MOORHEAD: There's this moment
where Laura Dern was
1452
01:13:07,550 --> 01:13:11,137
just assaulted by Willem Dafoe,
and she clicks her red heels
1453
01:13:11,137 --> 01:13:13,014
together three times.
1454
01:13:13,014 --> 01:13:16,976
You can't miss it, and everyone
knows what should happen next.
1455
01:13:16,976 --> 01:13:20,187
But the scene cuts
and nothing happens.
1456
01:13:20,187 --> 01:13:22,273
She's still in Oz,
1457
01:13:22,273 --> 01:13:24,483
and it's because he's not
retelling "The Wizard of Oz."
1458
01:13:24,483 --> 01:13:26,360
He's using
the cultural real estate
1459
01:13:26,360 --> 01:13:29,822
that "The Wizard of Oz" occupies
in our public consciousness
1460
01:13:29,822 --> 01:13:34,827
to say in these people's cases,
there just is no home.
1461
01:13:34,827 --> 01:13:36,787
All of these virtues
that Dorothy collects
1462
01:13:36,787 --> 01:13:38,414
in "The Wizard of Oz" are vices
1463
01:13:38,414 --> 01:13:40,958
that these characters
are collecting.
1464
01:13:40,958 --> 01:13:43,419
These vices are going to
keep them where they are,
1465
01:13:43,419 --> 01:13:45,546
and they need to find a way
to live with that
1466
01:13:45,546 --> 01:13:47,506
or find some other way out.
1467
01:13:47,506 --> 01:13:50,301
Honey, you ain't going to begin
worrying now
1468
01:13:50,301 --> 01:13:51,677
over what's bad for you.
1469
01:13:51,677 --> 01:13:54,722
I mean, here you are
crossing state lines
1470
01:13:54,722 --> 01:13:58,601
with an A number-one
certified murderer.
1471
01:13:58,601 --> 01:14:02,438
Manslaughterer, honey,
not murderer. Don't exaggerate.
1472
01:14:02,480 --> 01:14:05,066
MOORHEAD: There's this strange
cultural currency
1473
01:14:05,066 --> 01:14:08,527
to using certain
almost universally known images
1474
01:14:08,527 --> 01:14:12,406
of 1950s celebrities
that have become Americana.
1475
01:14:12,406 --> 01:14:14,533
In almost every movie
that David Lynch has made,
1476
01:14:14,533 --> 01:14:17,328
there's some expression
of this Americana in it.
1477
01:14:20,873 --> 01:14:22,416
We've got Nicolas Cage
basically
1478
01:14:22,416 --> 01:14:23,918
playing Elvis
in "Wild at Heart."
1479
01:14:23,918 --> 01:14:28,172
Let's go out into
the crazy world of New Orleans.
1480
01:14:28,172 --> 01:14:31,425
Go to Rally's and get
a fried banana sandwich.
1481
01:14:31,425 --> 01:14:34,261
Mm.
1482
01:14:34,261 --> 01:14:36,097
Okay.
1483
01:14:36,097 --> 01:14:37,431
MOORHEAD: Almost every character
in "Blue Velvet"
1484
01:14:37,431 --> 01:14:39,308
is a 1950s image --
1485
01:14:39,308 --> 01:14:42,353
bad guys wear leather jackets
and hang out in nightclubs.
1486
01:14:42,353 --> 01:14:43,980
-What kind of beer do you like?
-Heineken.
1487
01:14:43,980 --> 01:14:47,233
Heineken?! Fuck that shit!
1488
01:14:47,233 --> 01:14:49,026
Pabst Blue Ribbon.
1489
01:14:49,026 --> 01:14:50,403
MOORHEAD: In "Twin Peaks,"
1490
01:14:50,403 --> 01:14:52,697
James literally looks like
James Dean,
1491
01:14:52,697 --> 01:14:56,200
and Audrey Horne looks a lot
like a teenage Ava Gardner.
1492
01:14:56,200 --> 01:14:59,286
[ Down-tempo music plays ]
1493
01:15:02,665 --> 01:15:04,458
BENSON: And Michael Cera
in "Twin Peaks"
1494
01:15:04,458 --> 01:15:08,295
is dressed exactly like
Marlon Brando in "The Wild One."
1495
01:15:08,295 --> 01:15:11,882
MOORHEAD: And Dale Cooper
is like a 1950s noir detective
1496
01:15:11,882 --> 01:15:14,802
and a very idealised
version of one.
1497
01:15:14,802 --> 01:15:17,847
He is flawless,
almost to the point of satire.
1498
01:15:20,182 --> 01:15:21,976
[Whistle toots ]
1499
01:15:21,976 --> 01:15:24,186
There's the strong connection
1500
01:15:24,186 --> 01:15:26,272
to film noir archetypes
in his movies,
1501
01:15:26,272 --> 01:15:29,233
which is interesting
because a very, very early noir,
1502
01:15:29,233 --> 01:15:32,486
"I Wake Up Screaming,"
obsessively uses the song
1503
01:15:32,486 --> 01:15:34,196
"Over the Rainbow" as a motif.
1504
01:15:34,196 --> 01:15:37,199
[ "Over the Rainbow" playing ]
1505
01:15:52,173 --> 01:15:54,633
So there's a very established
connection
1506
01:15:54,633 --> 01:15:57,678
between "The Wizard of Oz"
and the origins of noir.
1507
01:15:57,678 --> 01:16:00,514
Robert, I --
1508
01:16:00,514 --> 01:16:04,935
Why, who on earth
is that beautiful girl?
1509
01:16:04,935 --> 01:16:07,396
BENSON: David Lynch will often
style characters
1510
01:16:07,396 --> 01:16:11,650
as pin-up girls like
a Marilyn Monroe type figure
1511
01:16:11,650 --> 01:16:15,237
or a Bettie Page type figure
or Jayne Mansfield.
1512
01:16:15,237 --> 01:16:17,156
There's a power
to these types of images
1513
01:16:17,156 --> 01:16:20,451
in that they're almost
collective fetishes.
1514
01:16:20,451 --> 01:16:22,870
MOORHEAD: Yes, these are
'50s Americana archetypes,
1515
01:16:22,870 --> 01:16:25,706
but they're also sex icons,
all of them.
1516
01:16:25,706 --> 01:16:27,958
And he's making
a facsimile of them
1517
01:16:27,958 --> 01:16:32,421
in order to take us back
and prey on our nostalgia.
1518
01:16:32,421 --> 01:16:36,300
And it also makes his movies
just very enjoyable to watch.
1519
01:16:36,300 --> 01:16:40,262
So he's not just a surrealist.
He's a populist surrealist.
1520
01:16:40,262 --> 01:16:43,265
[ Rock music plays ]
1521
01:16:46,435 --> 01:16:49,188
BENSON: But he always shows you
the dark underbelly of that.
1522
01:16:49,188 --> 01:16:51,899
And it seems like
it's an expression of this idea
1523
01:16:51,899 --> 01:16:54,693
that the 1950s were
a really exciting time
1524
01:16:54,693 --> 01:16:56,821
and it must have felt
really good for a lot of people.
1525
01:16:56,821 --> 01:16:59,406
But there was obviously
a subset of society
1526
01:16:59,406 --> 01:17:01,283
for whom it wasn't great,
1527
01:17:01,283 --> 01:17:04,829
and the neglect of that leads
to a certain kind of horror.
1528
01:17:04,829 --> 01:17:06,997
And it's just -- it's always
ready to come out
1529
01:17:06,997 --> 01:17:08,582
and break through the surface.
1530
01:17:14,588 --> 01:17:16,841
David Lynch isn't just holding
up these two things and saying,
1531
01:17:16,841 --> 01:17:18,884
"Hey, look how
different they are."
1532
01:17:18,884 --> 01:17:20,803
He's way more
principled than that.
1533
01:17:20,803 --> 01:17:24,265
He's holding up these things
and saying that the badness
1534
01:17:24,265 --> 01:17:27,977
is actually what gives
the good meaning.
1535
01:17:27,977 --> 01:17:31,147
And that would be why he has
these themes of doppelgangers,
1536
01:17:31,147 --> 01:17:32,731
why he has parallel realities,
1537
01:17:32,731 --> 01:17:34,316
why he has people
with the same name
1538
01:17:34,316 --> 01:17:36,110
but completely
opposite personalities.
1539
01:17:36,110 --> 01:17:38,821
Is that you?
1540
01:17:38,821 --> 01:17:40,489
Are both of them you?
1541
01:17:40,489 --> 01:17:41,824
BENSON: I think the only things
in life for him
1542
01:17:41,824 --> 01:17:43,075
that don't have
an evil doppelganger
1543
01:17:43,075 --> 01:17:45,452
are probably coffee
and meditation.
1544
01:17:45,452 --> 01:17:48,873
-Coffee.
-SHELLY: Agent Cooper?
1545
01:17:48,873 --> 01:17:51,292
Shelly, I'm going to let you
in on a little secret.
1546
01:17:51,292 --> 01:17:53,335
It's called Georgia Coffee --
comes in a can,
1547
01:17:53,335 --> 01:17:55,713
tastes as good and rich as any
cup of coffee I've ever had.
1548
01:17:55,713 --> 01:17:57,006
It's true.
1549
01:17:59,383 --> 01:18:00,593
BENSON: Even cigarettes in
"Wild at Heart"
1550
01:18:00,593 --> 01:18:02,136
are this constant threat,
1551
01:18:02,136 --> 01:18:04,638
and everybody knows
David Lynch loves cigarettes.
1552
01:18:09,143 --> 01:18:10,853
Gordon.
1553
01:18:21,447 --> 01:18:23,449
Whoa.
1554
01:18:23,449 --> 01:18:24,867
BENSON: "The Wizard of Oz"
treats polarisation
1555
01:18:24,867 --> 01:18:26,619
in the same way.
1556
01:18:26,619 --> 01:18:29,496
There's a black and white Kansas
and the Technicolor Oz.
1557
01:18:29,496 --> 01:18:32,374
There's the good witch
and the bad witch.
1558
01:18:32,374 --> 01:18:36,212
One is a dream
and one is reality.
1559
01:18:36,212 --> 01:18:39,131
And they all have their
counterparts in both worlds.
1560
01:18:39,131 --> 01:18:41,508
And that's exactly what
David Lynch keeps on doing.
1561
01:18:41,508 --> 01:18:43,427
There's not a lot of moral
1562
01:18:43,427 --> 01:18:45,554
or thematic muddiness
in his movies.
1563
01:18:45,554 --> 01:18:47,264
It's funny to say
that his movies
1564
01:18:47,264 --> 01:18:48,682
don't have an enormous amount
of muddiness to them
1565
01:18:48,682 --> 01:18:51,810
because they're so confounding
for most people.
1566
01:18:51,810 --> 01:18:53,896
But what he's doing
is he's following these things
1567
01:18:53,896 --> 01:18:55,564
through light and dark
1568
01:18:55,564 --> 01:18:58,859
and through a logic
that actually does make sense.
1569
01:18:58,859 --> 01:19:00,653
You know,
Bob is a force of evil,
1570
01:19:00,653 --> 01:19:03,280
but you don't see scenes of Bob
where you empathise with him
1571
01:19:03,280 --> 01:19:05,616
and wonder
how he used to be good.
1572
01:19:05,616 --> 01:19:07,451
And Coop is a force of good,
1573
01:19:07,451 --> 01:19:10,037
and you don't watch him
get tempted by the dark side
1574
01:19:10,079 --> 01:19:13,040
unless he's literally
possessed by evil.
1575
01:19:13,040 --> 01:19:14,708
They're very
complex characters.
1576
01:19:14,708 --> 01:19:16,168
They're extraordinarily
deep characters.
1577
01:19:16,168 --> 01:19:17,628
But you just never wonder
1578
01:19:17,628 --> 01:19:19,713
if you're supposed to be
rooting for Coop.
1579
01:19:20,256 --> 01:19:23,050
[Thunder crashes]
1580
01:19:23,050 --> 01:19:26,637
MOORHEAD: You know,
what's a MAGA hat?
1581
01:19:26,637 --> 01:19:28,806
A MAGA hat is basically saying,
1582
01:19:28,847 --> 01:19:31,433
"Let's get back to this idea
of this thing
1583
01:19:31,433 --> 01:19:34,436
that America was that's
so much better than now."
1584
01:19:34,436 --> 01:19:36,689
I mean, think about
where Marty McFly went to
1585
01:19:36,689 --> 01:19:37,898
in "Back to the Future."
1586
01:19:37,898 --> 01:19:39,733
That 1950s is great.
1587
01:19:39,733 --> 01:19:42,319
Everyone's lives are great
and everything is fine,
1588
01:19:42,319 --> 01:19:43,946
more or less.
1589
01:19:43,946 --> 01:19:46,115
But the reality is that
nothing's ever been fine.
1590
01:19:46,115 --> 01:19:47,825
It was just fine
for a few people.
1591
01:19:47,825 --> 01:19:49,493
I could run for mayor.
1592
01:19:49,493 --> 01:19:51,245
A coloured mayor.
That'll be the day.
1593
01:19:51,245 --> 01:19:53,580
You wait and see, Mr. Caruthers.
I will be mayor.
1594
01:19:53,580 --> 01:19:55,916
I'll be the most powerful man
in Hill Valley.
1595
01:19:55,958 --> 01:19:57,751
And I'm going to
clean up this town.
1596
01:19:57,751 --> 01:20:01,130
Good. You can start
by sweeping the floor.
1597
01:20:01,130 --> 01:20:02,339
MOORHEAD: And I think that
David Lynch,
1598
01:20:02,339 --> 01:20:03,757
who grew up in Boise, Idaho,
1599
01:20:03,757 --> 01:20:06,260
and then eventually moved around
a lot, you know,
1600
01:20:06,260 --> 01:20:09,680
one of the places he ended up
was low-income Philadelphia.
1601
01:20:09,680 --> 01:20:12,141
And there it's where he sees
the flip side of America.
1602
01:20:12,141 --> 01:20:15,227
What's beneath
the artificial sheen of it all.
1603
01:20:15,227 --> 01:20:16,937
LYNCH: I lived in Philadelphia,
1604
01:20:16,937 --> 01:20:21,150
and I call "Eraserhead"
the true Philadelphia story.
1605
01:20:22,526 --> 01:20:27,531
♪ Some day over the rainbow ♪
1606
01:20:27,531 --> 01:20:29,658
♪ Way up high ♪
1607
01:20:29,658 --> 01:20:32,119
-What is this, Connor?
-Now, now, easy, old man.
1608
01:20:32,119 --> 01:20:34,788
BENSON: And I don't think that
his realisation was
1609
01:20:34,788 --> 01:20:36,248
"Ah, man, I was fooled.
1610
01:20:36,248 --> 01:20:38,459
The '50s weren't
as great as I thought."
1611
01:20:38,459 --> 01:20:41,920
I think his realisation is "The
beautiful white picket fence
1612
01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:43,213
and 'Leave It to Beaver'
1613
01:20:43,213 --> 01:20:45,049
and pin-up girl vision
of the '50s,
1614
01:20:45,049 --> 01:20:48,052
it only existed because
of this horrible darkness
1615
01:20:48,052 --> 01:20:50,262
that I'm now able to see,
1616
01:20:50,262 --> 01:20:52,181
and it's built
on the shoulders of it."
1617
01:20:52,181 --> 01:20:54,224
So there's America,
1618
01:20:54,224 --> 01:20:56,727
and then there's
a doppelganger of America.
1619
01:20:56,727 --> 01:21:00,105
And the American dream was,
in fact, an American myth.
1620
01:21:00,105 --> 01:21:01,607
Or perhaps the American dream
1621
01:21:01,607 --> 01:21:03,817
walks hand-in-hand
with the American myth.
1622
01:21:03,817 --> 01:21:07,696
[ Radio playing indistinctly]
1623
01:21:10,657 --> 01:21:12,451
The way Lynch usually expresses
1624
01:21:12,451 --> 01:21:14,119
showing the underbelly
of America
1625
01:21:14,119 --> 01:21:16,163
is often through the way
women are treated
1626
01:21:16,163 --> 01:21:17,748
by the side of society
1627
01:21:17,748 --> 01:21:19,583
that is
the romanticised portion.
1628
01:21:19,583 --> 01:21:21,335
It's the portion
that's supposed to be good.
1629
01:21:21,335 --> 01:21:24,338
Stay away from me.
1630
01:21:24,338 --> 01:21:27,132
BENSON: Laura Palmer's dad
is a 1950s ideal,
1631
01:21:27,132 --> 01:21:31,387
but he's obviously
done awful things to her.
1632
01:21:31,387 --> 01:21:33,013
And then in "Blue Velvet,"
you know,
1633
01:21:33,013 --> 01:21:36,266
Jeffrey watches Dorothy Vallens
from a closet.
1634
01:21:36,266 --> 01:21:38,477
-Hello, baby.
-Shut up.
1635
01:21:38,477 --> 01:21:40,979
It's Daddy, you shithead.
Where's my bourbon?
1636
01:21:40,979 --> 01:21:43,607
BENSON: And witnesses how she's
treated for a very long time.
1637
01:21:43,607 --> 01:21:45,067
[Groaning ]
1638
01:21:45,067 --> 01:21:47,778
Don't you fucking look at me!
1639
01:21:47,778 --> 01:21:50,114
BENSON: Really that story
is about him observing
1640
01:21:50,114 --> 01:21:51,532
how this woman
has been destroyed
1641
01:21:51,532 --> 01:21:53,450
by the society he lives in.
1642
01:21:53,450 --> 01:21:56,120
And he had no idea
that it was destroying women.
1643
01:21:57,079 --> 01:21:59,581
Hold me! I'm falling!
1644
01:21:59,581 --> 01:22:02,626
-I'm falling!
-[ Siren wailing ]
1645
01:22:02,626 --> 01:22:05,754
BENSON: And so there's
definitely a huge parallel there
1646
01:22:05,754 --> 01:22:09,216
to this old-fashioned idea,
and not just of America,
1647
01:22:09,216 --> 01:22:11,385
but of the golden age
of Hollywood,
1648
01:22:11,385 --> 01:22:13,971
the system in which
Lynch is now working.
1649
01:22:13,971 --> 01:22:16,181
From Hollywood, California,
1650
01:22:16,181 --> 01:22:18,434
where stars make dreams
1651
01:22:18,434 --> 01:22:22,688
and dreams make stars.
1652
01:22:22,688 --> 01:22:24,815
The relationship between
Judy Garland
1653
01:22:24,815 --> 01:22:26,567
and the character of Dorothy
1654
01:22:26,567 --> 01:22:29,361
is highly analogous
to heaven and hell.
1655
01:22:29,361 --> 01:22:31,530
The American dream
versus the American myth.
1656
01:22:31,530 --> 01:22:33,740
MOORHEAD: And there's references
to characters
1657
01:22:33,740 --> 01:22:35,284
named Dorothy in "Blue Velvet"
1658
01:22:35,284 --> 01:22:36,994
and in "The Straight Story,"
1659
01:22:36,994 --> 01:22:39,121
there's a Garland Avenue
in "Lost Highway."
1660
01:22:39,121 --> 01:22:41,874
MAN: He lives with his parents,
William and Candace Dayton,
1661
01:22:41,874 --> 01:22:46,503
at 814 Garland Avenue.
1662
01:22:46,503 --> 01:22:47,921
Garland?
1663
01:22:47,921 --> 01:22:51,049
Did Windom Earle
do this to you?
1664
01:22:51,049 --> 01:22:53,760
Garland?
1665
01:22:53,760 --> 01:22:56,930
Odd name.
1666
01:22:56,930 --> 01:22:58,765
Judy Garland.
1667
01:22:58,765 --> 01:22:59,933
BENSON: In "Twin Peaks,"
1668
01:22:59,933 --> 01:23:02,936
the idea of Judy
comes up all the time,
1669
01:23:02,936 --> 01:23:05,105
especially the question of
who is Judy?
1670
01:23:05,105 --> 01:23:07,399
Where is Judy?
1671
01:23:07,399 --> 01:23:09,359
Who is Judy?
1672
01:23:09,359 --> 01:23:13,530
JEFFRIES:
You've already met Judy.
1673
01:23:13,530 --> 01:23:15,324
What do you mean I've met Judy??
1674
01:23:15,324 --> 01:23:16,700
BENSON: And Judy's never
to be found.
1675
01:23:16,700 --> 01:23:19,244
Judy seems to represent
the grand mystery.
1676
01:23:19,244 --> 01:23:21,497
Gotcha. Can I say hello
to my friend Judy?
1677
01:23:21,497 --> 01:23:24,750
-Where's she? Sure.
-She's a friend. Hello, Judy.
1678
01:23:24,750 --> 01:23:26,877
LENO: Now, you say that, now,
who is Judy?
1679
01:23:26,877 --> 01:23:29,087
-What does she do?
-She's just a friend.
1680
01:23:29,087 --> 01:23:30,881
LENO: Just a friend.
Now, you see --
1681
01:23:30,881 --> 01:23:32,966
I mean, is it
an open-ended friend?
1682
01:23:32,966 --> 01:23:34,176
Open-ended, yeah.
1683
01:23:34,176 --> 01:23:36,136
[ Cheers and applause]
1684
01:23:38,764 --> 01:23:40,474
Where is Judy now?
1685
01:23:40,474 --> 01:23:43,101
She is in America.
1686
01:23:43,101 --> 01:23:46,813
BENSON: She's almost her own
doppelganger in the sense
1687
01:23:46,813 --> 01:23:49,650
that on screen, she's this
totally wholesome person.
1688
01:23:49,650 --> 01:23:52,110
But in real life,
Judy Garland was pigeonholed
1689
01:23:52,110 --> 01:23:53,904
into that girl-next-door thing.
1690
01:23:53,904 --> 01:23:57,324
She had problems
with alcoholism, pill use.
1691
01:23:57,324 --> 01:23:59,785
She had an eating disorder.
She died very young.
1692
01:23:59,785 --> 01:24:03,205
She was only 47
and almost broke.
1693
01:24:03,205 --> 01:24:06,166
GARLAND: I wanted,
1694
01:24:06,208 --> 01:24:09,836
and I tried my damnedest,
1695
01:24:09,836 --> 01:24:12,756
to believe in the rainbow
1696
01:24:12,756 --> 01:24:14,383
that I tried to get over.
1697
01:24:14,383 --> 01:24:17,386
And I couldn't. So what?
1698
01:24:19,429 --> 01:24:23,308
BENSON: So who is Judy?
It's an unanswerable question.
1699
01:24:23,308 --> 01:24:26,812
It takes an entire lifetime
of Judy Garland to answer.
1700
01:24:26,812 --> 01:24:29,815
[ Sombre music plays ]
1701
01:24:46,582 --> 01:24:49,585
[ Down-tempo music plays ]
1702
01:24:57,426 --> 01:24:59,886
LOWERY: I grew up with
a black-and-white television.
1703
01:24:59,886 --> 01:25:02,639
And so the formal idea
that Oz was in colour
1704
01:25:02,639 --> 01:25:06,143
was lost on me
for many, many years.
1705
01:25:06,143 --> 01:25:08,895
The first time I saw it
as it was intended was in 1989,
1706
01:25:08,895 --> 01:25:10,230
and that was revelatory.
1707
01:25:10,230 --> 01:25:12,024
But it also didn't diminish
1708
01:25:12,024 --> 01:25:14,568
my previous understanding
of the movie,
1709
01:25:14,568 --> 01:25:17,613
which kind of proves the extent
to which our imagination drives
1710
01:25:17,613 --> 01:25:20,616
our understanding of the stories
that are being told to us.
1711
01:25:20,616 --> 01:25:23,869
DOROTHY: But I feel as if
I've known you all the time.
1712
01:25:23,869 --> 01:25:26,121
But I couldn't have, could I?
1713
01:25:26,121 --> 01:25:29,082
LOWERY: I feel like I must have
handled the 35 millimetre print
1714
01:25:29,082 --> 01:25:30,917
at some point
when I was in high school
1715
01:25:30,917 --> 01:25:32,210
when I was a projectionist.
1716
01:25:32,210 --> 01:25:34,963
But I could be
misremembering this.
1717
01:25:34,963 --> 01:25:36,798
It's weird that I can't remember
if that was real or not.
1718
01:25:36,798 --> 01:25:39,092
[ Cackles ]
1719
01:25:41,178 --> 01:25:45,098
I like to
remember things my own way.
1720
01:25:45,098 --> 01:25:46,808
What do you mean by that?
1721
01:25:49,686 --> 01:25:51,313
How I remember them,
1722
01:25:51,313 --> 01:25:54,107
not necessarily
the way they happened.
1723
01:25:54,107 --> 01:25:55,442
LOWERY:
Looking at it as an adult,
1724
01:25:55,442 --> 01:25:56,985
it feels to me
like "The Wizard of Oz"
1725
01:25:56,985 --> 01:25:59,279
might be a Quaalude
for the proletariat.
1726
01:25:59,279 --> 01:26:01,782
Poppies.
1727
01:26:01,782 --> 01:26:05,285
Poppies will put them to sleep.
1728
01:26:05,285 --> 01:26:06,953
LOWERY: "Everything's just fine
the way it is.
1729
01:26:06,953 --> 01:26:08,914
Don't strive for anything more."
1730
01:26:08,914 --> 01:26:10,791
The fact that the movie
reverts to sepia
1731
01:26:10,791 --> 01:26:13,960
is a very caustic
and suppressive move.
1732
01:26:13,960 --> 01:26:15,754
When you look at it this way,
it's almost as
1733
01:26:15,754 --> 01:26:19,132
if the pioneering spirit
of America is being subdued.
1734
01:26:19,132 --> 01:26:20,926
That we're being told
to stop dreaming,
1735
01:26:20,926 --> 01:26:24,012
to stop yearning,
and to put down roots.
1736
01:26:24,012 --> 01:26:26,223
The American dream is shifting
before our eyes
1737
01:26:26,223 --> 01:26:28,225
from one ideal to the next.
1738
01:26:28,225 --> 01:26:31,228
[ Dramatic music plays]
1739
01:26:35,399 --> 01:26:37,651
Every movie is
a transportive event.
1740
01:26:37,651 --> 01:26:40,028
A cyclone carrying us
to another realm.
1741
01:26:40,028 --> 01:26:43,782
ROSE: That was Bobby.
1742
01:26:43,782 --> 01:26:48,161
Uncle Lyle had a -- a stroke.
1743
01:26:48,161 --> 01:26:51,915
[Thunder crashes]
1744
01:26:51,915 --> 01:26:53,583
LOWERY: A movie can take us
to another world
1745
01:26:53,583 --> 01:26:56,002
and then safely return us home.
1746
01:26:56,002 --> 01:26:57,713
Or it can offer us a clear
1747
01:26:57,713 --> 01:27:00,590
and more vivid perspective
of the world around us.
1748
01:27:00,590 --> 01:27:02,217
Had enough, asshole?
1749
01:27:02,217 --> 01:27:04,845
LOWERY: It can dig in
to the world at hand.
1750
01:27:04,845 --> 01:27:07,139
Yes, I have.
1751
01:27:07,139 --> 01:27:09,099
And I want to apologise
to you gentlemen
1752
01:27:09,099 --> 01:27:12,436
for referring to you
as homosexuals.
1753
01:27:12,436 --> 01:27:15,439
I also want to thank you fellas.
1754
01:27:15,439 --> 01:27:18,150
You've taught me
a valuable lesson in life.
1755
01:27:18,900 --> 01:27:22,612
Lola!
1756
01:27:22,612 --> 01:27:25,615
[ Uplifting music plays]
1757
01:27:28,160 --> 01:27:30,203
LOWERY: Each of these is
a different type of journey,
1758
01:27:30,203 --> 01:27:33,165
but the common ground is
when we watch a movie,
1759
01:27:33,165 --> 01:27:35,375
an act of transportation
is occurring.
1760
01:27:39,045 --> 01:27:41,757
Many children's films are about
making peace with the fact
1761
01:27:41,757 --> 01:27:45,135
that one must find a way
to exist in the world at hand,
1762
01:27:45,135 --> 01:27:47,053
that there is not
a better place to go.
1763
01:27:47,053 --> 01:27:48,805
[ Speaking Japanese ]
1764
01:27:48,847 --> 01:27:50,891
[ Speaking Japanese ]
1765
01:27:50,932 --> 01:27:52,309
[ Speaking Japanese ]
1766
01:27:53,226 --> 01:27:57,147
LOWERY: We see this in
"Peter Pan" with Never land.
1767
01:27:57,147 --> 01:27:59,274
One of the crucial points
of that tale is discovering
1768
01:27:59,274 --> 01:28:02,569
that Never land and the
very concept of not growing up
1769
01:28:02,569 --> 01:28:04,821
isn't all that
it's cracked up to be.
1770
01:28:04,821 --> 01:28:07,699
-Oh, Mother, we're back.
-Back?
1771
01:28:07,699 --> 01:28:09,117
WENDY: All except the Lost Boys.
1772
01:28:09,117 --> 01:28:10,660
They weren't quite ready.
1773
01:28:10,660 --> 01:28:13,246
-Lost B-- Ready?
-To grow up.
1774
01:28:13,246 --> 01:28:15,499
That's why they went
back to Never land.
1775
01:28:15,499 --> 01:28:18,877
-Never land?
-Yes, but I am.
1776
01:28:18,877 --> 01:28:20,587
Am?
1777
01:28:20,629 --> 01:28:23,381
Ready to grow up.
1778
01:28:23,381 --> 01:28:25,008
LOWERY: We see it in
"Where the Wild Things Are,"
1779
01:28:25,008 --> 01:28:26,343
which has a lot
in common with both
1780
01:28:26,343 --> 01:28:28,512
"The Wizard of Oz"
and "Peter Pan."
1781
01:28:28,512 --> 01:28:30,806
The idea that there may be
a world in which childhood
1782
01:28:30,806 --> 01:28:33,266
reigns supreme
and where rules don't apply.
1783
01:28:33,266 --> 01:28:35,352
Be still!
1784
01:28:35,352 --> 01:28:38,230
[ Dramatic music plays]
1785
01:28:40,065 --> 01:28:41,441
Why?
1786
01:28:41,483 --> 01:28:44,027
LOWERY: And yet,
when Max gets there,
1787
01:28:44,027 --> 01:28:46,530
he finds that there's a reason
we have those rules.
1788
01:28:46,530 --> 01:28:48,532
Because...
1789
01:28:48,532 --> 01:28:50,033
Why?
1790
01:28:50,033 --> 01:28:52,869
Well, because you can't eat me.
1791
01:28:52,869 --> 01:28:54,496
You didn't know that,
1792
01:28:54,496 --> 01:28:56,623
so I forgive you,
but never try it again.
1793
01:28:56,623 --> 01:28:58,291
LOWERY: And there's an
inevitable disappointment
1794
01:28:58,291 --> 01:29:00,043
in this,
especially for a young viewer
1795
01:29:00,043 --> 01:29:02,295
who wants the fantasy
to be maintained.
1796
01:29:02,295 --> 01:29:03,922
Come.
1797
01:29:08,218 --> 01:29:11,304
Stay.
1798
01:29:11,304 --> 01:29:13,223
LOWERY: I remember feeling this
very profoundly
1799
01:29:13,223 --> 01:29:15,058
as a child with
"Beauty and the Beast."
1800
01:29:15,058 --> 01:29:16,601
It's me.
1801
01:29:16,601 --> 01:29:18,061
LOWERY: When the beast became
a human again,
1802
01:29:18,061 --> 01:29:19,396
it was innately disappointing
1803
01:29:19,396 --> 01:29:21,982
because now he's just
a normal human.
1804
01:29:21,982 --> 01:29:24,109
Of course, when I really thought
about what Belle's life would be
1805
01:29:24,109 --> 01:29:25,944
like living with this
half-human half-lion
1806
01:29:25,944 --> 01:29:27,279
she'd fallen in love with,
1807
01:29:27,279 --> 01:29:28,989
all sorts of practical problems
emerged.
1808
01:29:28,989 --> 01:29:31,283
And they got quite disturbing
quite quickly.
1809
01:29:33,827 --> 01:29:36,830
[ Speaking French ]
1810
01:29:39,374 --> 01:29:41,418
[ Speaking French ]
1811
01:29:41,418 --> 01:29:43,169
LOWERY: And so in some respect,
1812
01:29:43,169 --> 01:29:45,922
these narratives are doing us
as children a favour
1813
01:29:45,922 --> 01:29:47,757
and gently revealing
that what we perceive
1814
01:29:47,757 --> 01:29:49,676
as disappointments
and discomforts
1815
01:29:49,676 --> 01:29:52,888
are in fact necessary in order
to both function in the world
1816
01:29:52,888 --> 01:29:54,764
and to appreciate it.
1817
01:29:54,764 --> 01:29:57,058
Oh, but anyway,
Toto, we're home.
1818
01:29:57,058 --> 01:29:58,518
Home.
1819
01:29:58,518 --> 01:29:59,978
LOWERY:
They implicitly promise us
1820
01:29:59,978 --> 01:30:01,187
that the journey into adulthood
1821
01:30:01,187 --> 01:30:03,023
will not be as bad
as we think it is
1822
01:30:03,023 --> 01:30:06,484
and that we don't have
to leave everything behind.
1823
01:30:06,484 --> 01:30:08,778
In "Pete's Dragon," the world
that Pete is leaving behind
1824
01:30:08,778 --> 01:30:12,157
when he leaves the forest is not
going to be lost to him forever.
1825
01:30:12,157 --> 01:30:15,160
[ Uplifting music plays]
1826
01:30:16,661 --> 01:30:19,122
[ Roars I
1827
01:30:24,294 --> 01:30:26,671
LOWERY: And I think that is what
we have in "Peter Pan" as well.
1828
01:30:26,671 --> 01:30:29,132
The idea that growing up
can be just as magical
1829
01:30:29,132 --> 01:30:30,717
as living as a child forever,
1830
01:30:30,717 --> 01:30:33,553
and perhaps more so
because change can occur
1831
01:30:33,553 --> 01:30:36,598
and change can be
a beautiful thing.
1832
01:30:36,598 --> 01:30:39,059
You know, I have
the strangest feeling
1833
01:30:39,059 --> 01:30:41,728
that I've seen that ship before.
1834
01:30:41,728 --> 01:30:46,691
A long time ago
when I was very young.
1835
01:30:46,691 --> 01:30:49,235
-George, dear.
-Father.
1836
01:30:55,867 --> 01:30:59,079
LOWERY: Lynch's work definitely
functions across that spectrum
1837
01:30:59,079 --> 01:31:01,873
of the ways in which
a film can transport us.
1838
01:31:06,586 --> 01:31:08,964
His understanding
of the quotidian is very rooted
1839
01:31:08,964 --> 01:31:11,841
in the world
in which he grew up.
1840
01:31:11,841 --> 01:31:13,343
"The Straight Story,"
1841
01:31:13,343 --> 01:31:15,762
in addition to literally
being about transportation,
1842
01:31:15,804 --> 01:31:17,138
is just as transportive
1843
01:31:17,138 --> 01:31:19,474
as "Lost Highway"
or "Inland Empire."
1844
01:31:19,474 --> 01:31:21,685
But the world that takes us to
has a verisimilitude
1845
01:31:21,685 --> 01:31:24,437
that is much more graspable,
relatable.
1846
01:31:24,437 --> 01:31:26,898
You feel like you can
dig your fingers into it.
1847
01:31:26,898 --> 01:31:30,902
And I think that's why the film
ultimately is so gentle.
1848
01:31:30,902 --> 01:31:32,195
They look at the stars
at the end,
1849
01:31:32,195 --> 01:31:33,613
and for a moment you feel that
1850
01:31:33,613 --> 01:31:35,907
maybe that's where
you're going, too.
1851
01:31:35,907 --> 01:31:38,493
But in reality, you know that
you're just sitting on the porch
1852
01:31:38,493 --> 01:31:39,995
in the country on a planet
1853
01:31:39,995 --> 01:31:41,579
that is indeed
hurtling through space.
1854
01:31:41,579 --> 01:31:43,873
But still you're just
on the porch,
1855
01:31:43,873 --> 01:31:46,376
and you know
what that feels like.
1856
01:31:46,376 --> 01:31:47,961
Whereas in "Lost Highway,"
Fred Madison
1857
01:31:47,961 --> 01:31:49,671
disappears into a dark hallway,
1858
01:31:49,671 --> 01:31:52,382
and you have no idea
what might be on the other side
1859
01:31:52,382 --> 01:31:55,385
or whether he's going to emerge
in his own house at all.
1860
01:31:55,385 --> 01:31:57,262
You're in a seemingly
familiar space,
1861
01:31:57,262 --> 01:32:00,265
but as you move through it, you
lose all bearings on reality.
1862
01:32:01,599 --> 01:32:03,977
I do feel that what Lynch
is doing in his movies
1863
01:32:03,977 --> 01:32:05,979
is indicative of something
that occurs
1864
01:32:05,979 --> 01:32:09,816
when we watch "The Wizard of Oz"
repeatedly over our lives.
1865
01:32:09,816 --> 01:32:11,568
"The Wizard of Oz"
that I see as a child
1866
01:32:11,568 --> 01:32:14,571
is a burst of happiness
with very little at stake.
1867
01:32:14,571 --> 01:32:16,990
It's a fairy tale
with a happy ending.
1868
01:32:16,990 --> 01:32:18,742
I don't understand yet
the layers
1869
01:32:18,742 --> 01:32:20,493
that can be
extrapolated from it,
1870
01:32:20,493 --> 01:32:22,245
partially because I'm seeing it
all in black and white,
1871
01:32:22,245 --> 01:32:26,291
but also because I'm a child
and I take it at face value.
1872
01:32:26,291 --> 01:32:29,377
"The Wizard of Oz" I experienced
as a teenager is different.
1873
01:32:29,377 --> 01:32:32,213
I'm a little bit more cynical
now, as teenagers are.
1874
01:32:32,213 --> 01:32:33,465
Oh!
1875
01:32:33,465 --> 01:32:35,383
Dorothy? Who's Dorothy?
1876
01:32:35,383 --> 01:32:36,843
LOWERY: The idea that you return
1877
01:32:36,843 --> 01:32:38,678
to this black-and-white world
at the end,
1878
01:32:38,678 --> 01:32:40,805
there's something off about it,
and I don't know what it is yet,
1879
01:32:40,805 --> 01:32:43,141
but I can tell that
it's not quite right.
1880
01:32:45,185 --> 01:32:46,770
And then later in life,
1881
01:32:46,770 --> 01:32:48,897
I began to look at it
as a piece of history,
1882
01:32:48,897 --> 01:32:51,191
which I think with any movie
that has endured,
1883
01:32:51,191 --> 01:32:53,526
becomes a part
of the text of the film.
1884
01:32:53,526 --> 01:32:55,528
At a certain point,
you can't separate the film
1885
01:32:55,528 --> 01:32:57,072
from its own history,
1886
01:32:57,072 --> 01:32:58,573
and you start to understand
that the world
1887
01:32:58,573 --> 01:33:01,701
in which this film was made
was not a happy one.
1888
01:33:01,701 --> 01:33:04,162
At first it manifests
in bits of trivia,
1889
01:33:04,162 --> 01:33:05,622
like the exploits
of the Munchkins
1890
01:33:05,622 --> 01:33:07,165
in the Culver City Hotel,
1891
01:33:07,165 --> 01:33:09,209
that they had these Dionysian
parties after hours
1892
01:33:09,209 --> 01:33:11,377
and trashed the entire hotel.
1893
01:33:11,377 --> 01:33:12,378
There was a lot of them.
1894
01:33:12,378 --> 01:33:14,631
Oh, hundreds and thousands.
1895
01:33:14,672 --> 01:33:17,258
And they put them all
in one hotel room --
1896
01:33:17,258 --> 01:33:20,386
not one room,
one hotel in Culver City.
1897
01:33:20,386 --> 01:33:23,348
And they got smashed every night
1898
01:33:23,348 --> 01:33:26,309
and they'd pick them up
in butterfly nets.
1899
01:33:26,309 --> 01:33:28,311
[ Laughter]
1900
01:33:31,981 --> 01:33:33,733
LOWERY: You hear these stories
and you laugh
1901
01:33:33,733 --> 01:33:35,193
and you think it's funny,
1902
01:33:35,193 --> 01:33:37,028
but it also starts to colour
your understanding
1903
01:33:37,028 --> 01:33:39,114
of this seemingly perfect
Technicolor world
1904
01:33:39,114 --> 01:33:41,407
in which nothing
is necessarily wrong.
1905
01:33:41,407 --> 01:33:46,579
We thank you very sweetly
for doing it so neatly.
1906
01:33:46,579 --> 01:33:52,460
You've killed us so completely
that we thank you very sweetly.
1907
01:33:52,460 --> 01:33:54,504
LOWERY:
The thing that I really got into
1908
01:33:54,504 --> 01:33:57,090
was the mythology
around the dead person.
1909
01:33:57,090 --> 01:34:00,301
A dead stagehand or a dead
Munchkin who committed suicide
1910
01:34:00,301 --> 01:34:03,888
and is supposedly just barely
visible in the finished film,
1911
01:34:03,888 --> 01:34:06,266
hanging in the background
on the set.
1912
01:34:06,266 --> 01:34:07,809
I had the movie on VHS
1913
01:34:07,851 --> 01:34:09,727
and I spent a lot of time
digging through the tape,
1914
01:34:09,727 --> 01:34:11,563
rewinding it,
looking for this evidence
1915
01:34:11,563 --> 01:34:13,773
that supposedly
existed of someone
1916
01:34:13,773 --> 01:34:15,817
who had hung themselves
in the set of a movie
1917
01:34:15,817 --> 01:34:17,819
that was regarded
as one of the happiest,
1918
01:34:17,819 --> 01:34:19,487
most influential films
for children
1919
01:34:19,487 --> 01:34:22,615
of the past 40 or 50 years.
1920
01:34:22,615 --> 01:34:25,076
The idea that a movie
could be a bubble,
1921
01:34:25,076 --> 01:34:26,786
that it could be
representative of all
1922
01:34:26,786 --> 01:34:28,538
that is wholesome in America,
1923
01:34:28,538 --> 01:34:30,456
and yet also contain
textual evidence
1924
01:34:30,456 --> 01:34:34,627
of the darkest depths of human
misery really fascinated me.
1925
01:34:34,627 --> 01:34:37,172
It's like the story
in "3 Men and a Baby."
1926
01:34:37,172 --> 01:34:39,841
I had heard that there was
supposedly a ghost of a child
1927
01:34:39,841 --> 01:34:42,802
who had died on the sound stage
visible in the finished film,
1928
01:34:42,802 --> 01:34:44,637
and I was determined to find it.
1929
01:34:44,637 --> 01:34:46,890
Where the hell is he,
milking the cows or something?
1930
01:34:46,890 --> 01:34:48,933
LOWERY: I'd heard that this
ghost was visible in a shot
1931
01:34:48,933 --> 01:34:50,476
where the camera panned
past a window.
1932
01:34:50,476 --> 01:34:52,979
So I remember renting that tape
and rewinding
1933
01:34:52,979 --> 01:34:54,480
and fast forwarding
and rewinding
1934
01:34:54,480 --> 01:34:56,316
and fast forwarding
and hitting pause and play
1935
01:34:56,316 --> 01:34:59,235
and pause and play, looking for
any brightly lit scene
1936
01:34:59,235 --> 01:35:01,404
that might have
a window in it.
1937
01:35:01,404 --> 01:35:03,865
And eventually I found
what people were talking about,
1938
01:35:03,865 --> 01:35:05,950
and it freaked me out
because it looked exactly
1939
01:35:05,950 --> 01:35:08,870
like what I feared it might be.
1940
01:35:08,870 --> 01:35:10,622
And I also found it
in "The Wizard of Oz,"
1941
01:35:10,622 --> 01:35:12,081
and that freaked me out, too.
1942
01:35:12,081 --> 01:35:13,666
Here I am looking at a movie
1943
01:35:13,666 --> 01:35:15,210
that I've seen
a million times before,
1944
01:35:15,210 --> 01:35:17,420
and suddenly I'm seeing
this secret revelation
1945
01:35:17,420 --> 01:35:21,966
in these 480 lines of NTSC video
that was meant to be hidden,
1946
01:35:21,966 --> 01:35:24,469
that we were meant
to be protected from.
1947
01:35:24,469 --> 01:35:25,970
Now, none of this is true,
of course.
1948
01:35:25,970 --> 01:35:27,597
It's not actually
a dead stagehand
1949
01:35:27,597 --> 01:35:28,932
or a dead Munchkin.
1950
01:35:28,932 --> 01:35:31,517
It's a bird or an ostrich
or something.
1951
01:35:31,517 --> 01:35:32,852
And the ghost in
"3 Men and a Baby"
1952
01:35:32,852 --> 01:35:35,230
is a cardboard cutout.
1953
01:35:35,230 --> 01:35:37,482
But once you set aside
these facetious myths
1954
01:35:37,482 --> 01:35:39,275
about the dark side
of "The Wizard of Oz,"
1955
01:35:39,275 --> 01:35:42,070
you can actually start to unpack
the literal dark side
1956
01:35:42,070 --> 01:35:44,447
to the film,
which ranges from the incidents
1957
01:35:44,447 --> 01:35:48,284
of the Culver City Hotel to
Judy Garland's own life story.
1958
01:35:48,284 --> 01:35:49,577
And these things
colour the movie
1959
01:35:49,577 --> 01:35:52,455
in a way that
is impossible to unsee.
1960
01:35:52,455 --> 01:35:54,499
It is impossible to separate
the film from them
1961
01:35:54,499 --> 01:35:56,584
once you become aware of them.
1962
01:35:56,584 --> 01:35:59,921
And that is what I believe
Lynch is doing with his films,
1963
01:35:59,921 --> 01:36:01,881
this tarnishing
of the American dream
1964
01:36:01,881 --> 01:36:04,801
that exists in the text
of "The Wizard of Oz."
1965
01:36:04,801 --> 01:36:06,844
I think that's something
that he's obsessed with.
1966
01:36:06,844 --> 01:36:10,682
Here, Scarecrow.
Want to play ball?
1967
01:36:10,682 --> 01:36:12,767
[ Cackles ]
1968
01:36:12,767 --> 01:36:15,645
LOWERY: It's something that he
must have gone through himself.
1969
01:36:15,645 --> 01:36:18,815
-Here's to Ben.
-Here's to Ben.
1970
01:36:18,815 --> 01:36:22,652
Hey, neighbour.
1971
01:36:22,652 --> 01:36:23,903
Here's to Ben.
1972
01:36:25,697 --> 01:36:26,864
Here's to Ben.
1973
01:36:26,864 --> 01:36:28,199
Be polite.
1974
01:36:30,326 --> 01:36:31,995
Here's to Ben.
1975
01:36:34,038 --> 01:36:35,498
LOWERY: I think Lynch accepts
the fact
1976
01:36:35,498 --> 01:36:39,168
that we are at all times
surrounded by dark forces.
1977
01:36:39,168 --> 01:36:41,629
But he also believes
that they can be subdued.
1978
01:36:41,629 --> 01:36:43,423
Goodness will prevail.
1979
01:36:43,423 --> 01:36:46,509
He said this very recently
in one of his weather reports.
1980
01:36:46,509 --> 01:36:49,762
Great things,
beautiful things are afoot.
1981
01:36:49,762 --> 01:36:51,306
I think this is
what he's working towards,
1982
01:36:51,306 --> 01:36:54,142
both in his movies
but also in life.
1983
01:36:54,142 --> 01:36:59,355
Right now, the thorns
of negativity
1984
01:36:59,355 --> 01:37:03,318
are making their last
desperate stand.
1985
01:37:03,318 --> 01:37:08,364
But soon they're going to wither
and fall away.
1986
01:37:08,364 --> 01:37:13,536
They're going to rot
and disappear.
1987
01:37:13,536 --> 01:37:17,123
So don't despair.
1988
01:37:17,123 --> 01:37:21,919
Great times are coming
for the United States
1989
01:37:21,919 --> 01:37:25,381
and for the whole world family.
1990
01:37:25,381 --> 01:37:27,717
LOWERY: I wonder if
ingesting these --
1991
01:37:27,717 --> 01:37:29,385
you call them totems,
1992
01:37:29,385 --> 01:37:31,554
but I would also just call them
symbols or motifs
1993
01:37:31,554 --> 01:37:34,557
from "The Wizard of Oz,"
if he's just regurgitating them
1994
01:37:34,557 --> 01:37:38,144
because they've become embedded
in his own cultural lexicon.
1995
01:37:38,144 --> 01:37:41,105
[ Sombre music plays ]
1996
01:37:45,318 --> 01:37:49,447
What did I tell you? Magic.
1997
01:37:49,447 --> 01:37:52,450
LOWERY: As a filmmaker, that's
something I know I certainly do.
1998
01:37:52,450 --> 01:37:54,660
In "Pete's Dragon," I was
constantly telling the actors,
1999
01:37:54,660 --> 01:37:56,412
"Look up at the sky
with a look of wonder.
2000
01:37:56,412 --> 01:37:57,663
What are you looking at?
Doesn't matter.
2001
01:37:57,663 --> 01:37:58,873
I'll figure it out later.
2002
01:37:58,873 --> 01:38:00,792
Just give me
that look of wonder."
2003
01:38:00,792 --> 01:38:02,752
And all I'm doing there
is recapitulating
2004
01:38:02,752 --> 01:38:04,253
the Spielberg face,
2005
01:38:04,253 --> 01:38:06,506
which has become embedded
in my own psyche
2006
01:38:06,506 --> 01:38:08,925
throughout the years of me
loving Spielberg movies
2007
01:38:08,925 --> 01:38:11,219
and understanding that
a certain expression can convey
2008
01:38:11,219 --> 01:38:14,555
a certain feeling
to the audience.
2009
01:38:14,555 --> 01:38:16,682
And if you use it
at just the right time,
2010
01:38:16,682 --> 01:38:18,267
you'll achieve an emotional apex
2011
01:38:18,267 --> 01:38:19,769
that is almost
universally understood
2012
01:38:19,769 --> 01:38:23,523
to mean one thing,
which in this case is wonder.
2013
01:38:23,523 --> 01:38:25,316
So if a character
in one of Lynch's movies
2014
01:38:25,316 --> 01:38:27,026
is wearing red shoes,
2015
01:38:27,026 --> 01:38:29,028
whether or not
we're consciously processing it,
2016
01:38:29,028 --> 01:38:30,321
there's a symbolism at hand
2017
01:38:30,321 --> 01:38:32,865
that goes further
than his own work.
2018
01:38:32,865 --> 01:38:34,242
It goes into
our own understanding
2019
01:38:34,242 --> 01:38:35,952
of what those ruby slippers
might have meant
2020
01:38:35,952 --> 01:38:38,329
when we first saw them
as a child.
2021
01:38:38,329 --> 01:38:40,123
I'm not going
to talk about Judy.
2022
01:38:40,123 --> 01:38:42,917
In fact, we're not going to
talk about Judy at all.
2023
01:38:42,917 --> 01:38:44,293
We're going to keep her
out of it.
2024
01:38:44,293 --> 01:38:46,754
-Gordon.
-I know, Coop.
2025
01:38:46,754 --> 01:38:48,923
LOWERY: The first movie I saw
that wasn't an animated film
2026
01:38:48,923 --> 01:38:50,675
at the movie theatre was "E.T.,"
2027
01:38:50,675 --> 01:38:55,304
and I'm still recycling
the things I got from that film.
2028
01:38:55,304 --> 01:38:58,099
The first movie I saw in
a cinema at all was "Pinocchio."
2029
01:39:00,351 --> 01:39:03,604
♪ I got no strings
to hold me d-- ♪
2030
01:39:06,149 --> 01:39:07,900
LOWERY: The journey of
"Pinocchio."
2031
01:39:07,900 --> 01:39:10,319
The lessons of "Pinocchio."
2032
01:39:11,737 --> 01:39:13,823
[GULPS]
2033
01:39:13,823 --> 01:39:15,575
LOWERY: The darkness
of "Pinocchio."
2034
01:39:15,575 --> 01:39:20,371
Mama! Mama!
2035
01:39:20,371 --> 01:39:23,332
[ Braying ]
2036
01:39:23,332 --> 01:39:25,918
LOWERY: Those are things that I
consistently am coming back to.
2037
01:39:25,918 --> 01:39:28,880
[Tense music plays]
2038
01:39:40,766 --> 01:39:42,435
Putting together a list
of the movies
2039
01:39:42,435 --> 01:39:45,229
that I think had a seismic
effect on the work that I do,
2040
01:39:45,229 --> 01:39:46,939
it's not a long list.
2041
01:39:46,939 --> 01:39:50,109
Those impressions run deep
and are hard to escape,
2042
01:39:50,109 --> 01:39:52,487
and they're so hard to escape
that I think the majority of us
2043
01:39:52,487 --> 01:39:55,323
as storytellers
don't try to escape them.
2044
01:39:55,323 --> 01:39:57,366
We just dig in deeper.
2045
01:39:57,366 --> 01:39:58,743
And in so much
as we're doing that,
2046
01:39:58,743 --> 01:40:00,119
we are making the same movie
2047
01:40:00,119 --> 01:40:02,330
and telling the same story
repeatedly.
2048
01:40:04,749 --> 01:40:07,418
"Lost Highway" is a step
towards "Mulholland Drive,"
2049
01:40:07,418 --> 01:40:09,629
which is a step towards
"Inland Empire,"
2050
01:40:09,629 --> 01:40:12,089
which is a step towards
"Twin Peaks: The Return."
2051
01:40:12,089 --> 01:40:15,092
[ Sombre music plays ]
2052
01:40:20,640 --> 01:40:22,850
He's working his way
towards that in the same way
2053
01:40:22,850 --> 01:40:24,644
that Terrence Ma lick
was working his way
2054
01:40:24,644 --> 01:40:27,021
towards "The Tree of Life"
from day one of his career.
2055
01:40:27,021 --> 01:40:30,066
[ Mid-tempo music plays ]
2056
01:40:47,833 --> 01:40:50,002
And once you realise what
they're digging towards,
2057
01:40:50,002 --> 01:40:52,380
you can appreciate their
body of work in a new light
2058
01:40:52,380 --> 01:40:54,924
because you understand
what matters to them.
2059
01:40:59,303 --> 01:41:00,972
I love the idea of
digging in deeper
2060
01:41:00,972 --> 01:41:02,515
and hitting the boundaries
within the work
2061
01:41:02,515 --> 01:41:04,267
that we've created
for ourselves,
2062
01:41:04,267 --> 01:41:07,895
rather than trying to expand
the horizons around us.
2063
01:41:07,895 --> 01:41:09,564
I like the comfort of knowing
2064
01:41:09,564 --> 01:41:12,400
that there's always
further inward I can go.
2065
01:41:12,400 --> 01:41:14,235
The themes and images
that compel us
2066
01:41:14,235 --> 01:41:16,028
are ones we'll keep revisiting,
2067
01:41:16,028 --> 01:41:19,365
re-exploring, reinvestigating,
recontextualising, re-everything
2068
01:41:19,365 --> 01:41:21,534
because they're the things
that compel us
2069
01:41:21,534 --> 01:41:24,495
to be storytellers
in the first place.
2070
01:41:24,495 --> 01:41:27,206
We look to the past while also
looking into the future,
2071
01:41:27,206 --> 01:41:30,042
and that is a valuable thing
for the culture.
2072
01:41:30,042 --> 01:41:33,004
[ Mid-tempo music plays ]
2073
01:43:03,302 --> 01:43:05,596
The fact that "The Wizard of Oz"
and David Lynch
2074
01:43:05,596 --> 01:43:08,391
can go hand in hand and
communicate with one another,
2075
01:43:08,391 --> 01:43:10,226
the fact that we can have
this conversation
2076
01:43:10,226 --> 01:43:12,561
about ruby slippers
and "Twin Peaks"
2077
01:43:12,561 --> 01:43:15,106
is one of the most beautiful
things about this medium.
2078
01:43:17,191 --> 01:43:19,527
LYNCH: We go way, way out.
2079
01:43:19,527 --> 01:43:23,030
And we get lost
in the field of relativity.
2080
01:43:23,030 --> 01:43:27,535
And the trick is to find
your way home.
2081
01:43:27,535 --> 01:43:29,453
You're a beautiful bunch.
Here we go.
2082
01:43:29,453 --> 01:43:30,830
On your mark.
2083
01:43:30,830 --> 01:43:32,581
Get set. Go.
2084
01:43:32,581 --> 01:43:34,542
-Auntie Em!
-Auntie Em?
2085
01:43:34,542 --> 01:43:35,835
I must have been dreaming.
2086
01:43:35,835 --> 01:43:38,045
It was horrible.
We were on Saturdays.
2087
01:43:38,045 --> 01:43:39,797
Andy, you were there.
2088
01:43:39,797 --> 01:43:41,716
The log lady was there.
2089
01:43:41,716 --> 01:43:43,300
And the Man from Another Place
was there, too.
2090
01:43:43,300 --> 01:43:46,429
-Saturdays. That is a bad dream.
-Ohh.
2091
01:43:46,429 --> 01:43:48,472
Diane, Thursdays
at 9:00, 8:00 Central.
2092
01:43:48,472 --> 01:43:50,182
There's no place like home.
2093
01:43:52,935 --> 01:43:55,104
LYNCH: Cut it. Off.
2094
01:43:55,104 --> 01:43:58,107
[ Mid-tempo music plays ]
2095
01:44:04,488 --> 01:44:07,992
MAN: There's no place like home.
2096
01:44:07,992 --> 01:44:09,660
There's no place like home.
2097
01:44:11,829 --> 01:44:14,206
There's no place like home.
2098
01:44:14,206 --> 01:44:17,293
[ Music continues ]
2099
01:45:01,253 --> 01:45:04,256
[ Down-tempo music plays ]164854
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