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'One of the greatest issues
invoked by the life
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of Lyndon Baines Johnson:
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The relationship between means and ends.
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No question is more important than that.'
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I love those books. I love those books.
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I don't know an author
that's so beloved in such a weird,
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cult-y kind of way.
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I think about Robert Caro
and reading The Power Broker
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back when I was 22 years old.
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And just being mesmerized.
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I'm sure it helped to shape
how I think about politics.
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It is 46 years old,
weighs nearly 4 pounds in paperback,
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and is about as ill-suited
for the Internet age as they come.
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The book is not even available
for digital readers,
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and yet in certain circles,
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The Power Broker has become
a breakout star of the COVID-19 era.
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It's a credential in a way, right?
It's a credential,
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that they know what they're talking about
because they have at the very least
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read this book, or at the very least know
that they should have read this book.
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He does this incredible work
of reminding us
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how the world is really built
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and how power changes all of our lives.
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If we understand power
and we understand what power does
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to people who don't have it,
then maybe we can imagine a better future.
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Hi.
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- I've heard you've edited a book or two.
- Or three.
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So I'm wondering if you can find
any of them in this massive collection.
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They'll be everywhere.
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- Okay.
- You know, I'm still at it.
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Bob Gottlieb is a superb editor.
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He was the young superstar in publishing.
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Bob Gottlieb is the most important
American editor and publisher
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of the postwar period.
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He was like the Dumbledore of publishing.
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So about how many books have you edited?
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I'd say a rough guess would be
between 600 and 700.
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Six hundred and 700!
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I never had a more important professor
in language and literature
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in capturing in words human experiences
and feelings than Bob Gottlieb.
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He could see any blob of clay
and imagine it a statue,
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and he would help you figure out that
and chisel your way to victory.
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So when I realized
how long he'd worked with Caro,
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I thought, 'Dear God,
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if I just had a transcript
of all their conversations.'
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My father, Robert Gottlieb,
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has been working with Robert Caro
for over 50 years.
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They are now on the brink
of finishing their final collaboration.
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I asked them if I could film them
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as they worked together
on their last book.
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They both said no.
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They said the work between a writer
and editor is too private
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for anyone else to see.
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Slowly, they have relented.
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A little.
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- Are you comfortable?
- I'm so comfortable.
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- In your sweatpants?
- You don't want them?
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- You want me to change?
- I do, I love those sweatpants.
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Okay.
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00:04:05,250 --> 00:04:07,959
We really quarreled
over you doing this film.
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That wasn't a quarrel.
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If it had been a quarrel,
I wouldn't be doing it.
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- It was a resistance.
- I'm allowed to resist.
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- But I wore you down.
- You did. Your charming smile did it.
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- Are we now doing it? Is it happening?
- It's happening right now.
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Robert Caro was even more resistant
than my father.
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But eventually he agreed to talk to me
about their relationship.
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So sometimes
when we have our worst fights...
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I have to make myself remember
all the things that he's done.
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So Bob Caro is enthusiastic
about the filming.
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- Right, which is great.
- Which is great.
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However, he does not...
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He refuses to be interviewed
in the same room as you.
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- Who could blame him?
- Why do you think that is?
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He's Bob Caro. I don't know why.
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Do I try to understand his motivation? No.
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My job is to help him do
what he wants to do.
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They're two New York City guys...
Geniuses, really.
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For whom work is central.
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Two guys, the best in their field.
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Bob Caro, the greatest political
writer-thinker of our time.
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Bob Gottlieb,
the greatest editor of his time,
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central to the literature of our time.
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Do you think you and my father are alike?
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Oh, he would hate to think he was like me.
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- Have you spent much time with them?
- No.
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I don't think the two of them
spend much time together
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unless they're editing.
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So it's at times contentious,
as I understand.
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I've never been in the room,
thank God, when it's happened,
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but I've heard, from each of them,
that it has been.
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They're now both in their 80s,
and I think they're still speaking.
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And I think
if you held their hands to the fire,
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despite all the battles,
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they would each say
that one of the great satisfactions
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of their extraordinary careers
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is the relationship
between the two of them.
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The two of you have been working
on this project for 40 years.
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However long, yeah.
He does the work, I do the cleanup.
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Then we fight.
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In the case of Bob and Bob,
you have two titanic personalities.
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That's gonna be an interesting...
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exercise of power.
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- Susan, I'll be right there.
- We're movie-making.
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- How are you? We're movie-making!
- Hello, Susan.
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- What?
- Oh, my God, that's so beautiful.
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Okay.
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I have to spend a good part
of the middle of December
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working on my Bill Gates book.
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My father is turning 90 this year.
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I need an extra daughter.
Why did I only have one?
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And you know what?
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If I had two daughters,
I could have two sons-in-law.
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- That's true.
- Unlike King Lear, who said...
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What does he say?
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'I'll creep upon those sons-in-law,
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and kill, kill, kill, kill, kill.'
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That's right.
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When I was a kid,
our house was always filled
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with the writers my father published.
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They were part of our family.
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But for some reason, never Robert Caro.
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I didn't meet Caro
until my father's 80th birthday party.
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I had always wondered
about this mysterious relationship
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that was and still is so central
to my father's life.
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Fifty years, five books, 4,888 pages,
and they're not finished yet.
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I set out to make this film
to try to understand something
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00:08:07,376 --> 00:08:09,542
about both these men and their work.
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00:08:09,542 --> 00:08:11,459
Hi, Conan O'Brien.
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00:08:11,459 --> 00:08:13,725
- What's that?
- I think he wants you to come towards me.
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And I wasn't the only one in pursuit.
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Wonderful. Thank you, guys.
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This isn't your world, is it?
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00:08:23,167 --> 00:08:28,001
It is no secret, Mr. Caro,
that I have pursued you.
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You are the white whale to my Ahab.
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And tonight I have cornered you
and there's no getting away.
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Tonight, no one is allowed
to ask this man:
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'When is the next
Lyndon Johnson book coming out?'
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I forbid that question.
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I talked to a friend of mine.
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He said, 'Well, you're gonna be
speaking at a temple,
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so you should use the phrase dayenu.'
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Dayenu means 'it would have been enough.'
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And I maintain,
had he just written The Power Broker,
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it would have been enough.
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00:09:08,209 --> 00:09:11,334
Had he just written Path to Power,
it would have been enough.
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Had he written any single one
of these books, dayenu, okay?
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Dayenu.
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We will get this next book
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when he's damn well ready to give it to us
and not until then.
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So I keep here...
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Every day I write down
how many words I wrote that day.
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- Can we see?
- You can.
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00:09:47,001 --> 00:09:48,667
Well, actually, no.
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They're notes to myself,
of exhortation, or whatever.
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So that's what we got to date.
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00:10:00,917 --> 00:10:05,001
- Is that the only copy?
- No, I'm a newspaper man.
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00:10:05,001 --> 00:10:08,792
So every time I put a piece of paper
in the typewriter,
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I put a carbon and another piece in.
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So at the end of the day,
I take home the carbon.
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And there's a space over the refrigerator.
I just throw it in.
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I have to say something
about how I chose your father.
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I think it was 1970.
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I had spent seven years
working on this book,
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and everybody said to me:
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00:10:38,167 --> 00:10:40,876
'Nobody's going to read a book
about Robert Moses.'
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So I figured, I better get an agent.
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Here I was from the Midwest.
I'd never heard of Robert Moses.
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I mean, barely.
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And I took a huge chunk
of the manuscript home,
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and I was completely spellbound.
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Lynn, you're an agent for authors
and would-be authors.
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00:11:03,126 --> 00:11:06,168
What is your dream
with the book that you have?
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00:11:06,168 --> 00:11:09,792
My dream is
that it will get a certain public,
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and that it will enhance
the writer's reputation.
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Every author is different,
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which is one of the great joys
of our business.
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She said something really nice
about the book
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00:11:19,168 --> 00:11:21,376
and said she'd like to represent me.
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She said,
'But you have to tell me something.
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Why do you look so worried?'
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00:11:27,667 --> 00:11:30,126
And I said,
'I don't know where I'm gonna get
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the money to finish the book.'
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00:11:31,709 --> 00:11:34,542
I knew I had about
three more years to go on it.
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00:11:34,542 --> 00:11:39,084
And Lynn said to me,
'You can stop worrying right now.
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00:11:39,084 --> 00:11:43,126
I can get you that by just picking up
this telephone.'
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00:11:43,126 --> 00:11:47,876
She said, 'But my job is to find you
an editor that you can work with
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00:11:47,876 --> 00:11:49,917
the rest of your life.'
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00:11:49,917 --> 00:11:53,959
So she said
what she was gonna do was set up...
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I think there were four lunches
in the next week with four editors,
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00:11:59,334 --> 00:12:03,084
who, as it turns out,
I now know were all famous editors.
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00:12:03,084 --> 00:12:06,126
Three of the editors took me to lunch
at the Four Seasons
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00:12:06,126 --> 00:12:09,251
and told me basically
they could make me a star,
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00:12:09,251 --> 00:12:10,876
which I wasn't interested in.
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The fourth one was Bob Gottlieb,
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00:12:15,293 --> 00:12:20,209
and he didn't go out for lunch,
so we ordered sandwiches at his desk.
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00:12:20,209 --> 00:12:23,792
Robert Gottlieb is both president
and editor-in-chief
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00:12:23,792 --> 00:12:26,500
of Alfred A. Knopf publishing house.
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00:12:26,500 --> 00:12:30,168
Have you ever had the experience
as a publisher of reading something,
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00:12:30,168 --> 00:12:32,251
turning it down for one reason or another,
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00:12:32,251 --> 00:12:35,584
and having that thing reappear
as a great success elsewhere?
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00:12:35,584 --> 00:12:38,126
- Oh, everybody's had that experience.
- Is that a nightmare?
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00:12:38,126 --> 00:12:41,126
No, it isn't at all
because I think if you're sensible,
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00:12:41,126 --> 00:12:45,126
you remember that you turned it down
because you didn't much like it,
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00:12:45,126 --> 00:12:47,792
and that if you had published it,
not very much liking it,
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00:12:47,792 --> 00:12:50,460
it probably would not have become
a great success.
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00:12:51,251 --> 00:12:53,168
I can be very philosophical about that.
209
00:12:53,168 --> 00:12:55,251
I can't be very philosophical about books
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00:12:55,251 --> 00:12:57,584
I have published,
knowing that they're wonderful,
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00:12:57,584 --> 00:13:00,917
only to see them become unsuccesses.
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00:13:00,917 --> 00:13:03,168
Fortunately,
that doesn't happen all the time.
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00:13:04,001 --> 00:13:06,709
Soon after I went to Alfred Knopf,
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00:13:06,709 --> 00:13:09,418
my pal, the agent Lynn Nesbit,
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00:13:09,418 --> 00:13:14,334
sent over to me this manuscript
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00:13:14,334 --> 00:13:19,500
which was about as high
from here to here, literally.
217
00:13:21,625 --> 00:13:24,959
Didn't take more than reading 15 pages
218
00:13:24,959 --> 00:13:27,834
to know that it was, indeed,
going to be a masterpiece.
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00:13:27,834 --> 00:13:30,293
A word I do not throw around easily.
220
00:13:30,293 --> 00:13:35,084
And he basically said something
very complimentary about the book.
221
00:13:36,625 --> 00:13:41,917
He said, 'But it needs work,
and here is what has to be done.'
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00:13:41,917 --> 00:13:43,792
So I, of course, picked him.
223
00:13:48,876 --> 00:13:54,335
Editing is intelligent
and sympathetic reaction to the text
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00:13:54,335 --> 00:13:57,751
and to what the author
is trying to accomplish.
225
00:13:57,751 --> 00:14:01,293
Basically, it's expressing your reaction,
226
00:14:01,293 --> 00:14:07,584
and that works
if the writer really understands
227
00:14:07,584 --> 00:14:10,542
that you are in sympathy
with what he or she is doing.
228
00:14:11,084 --> 00:14:15,542
When you try to change something
into something that it isn't,
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00:14:15,542 --> 00:14:19,959
rather than make it better of what it is,
tragedy lurks.
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00:14:27,917 --> 00:14:31,084
Get ready for wisdom.
It's heading your way.
231
00:14:31,084 --> 00:14:34,293
I'm going to talk to you about
the two things I really know,
232
00:14:34,293 --> 00:14:38,001
which are editing and publishing,
which are very separate things.
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00:14:38,001 --> 00:14:42,584
If you're going to be a book editor
or aspire to be one,
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00:14:42,584 --> 00:14:43,959
I can't teach it to you.
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00:14:43,959 --> 00:14:45,563
First of all, you have to be a reader.
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00:14:45,563 --> 00:14:47,959
If you haven't been a reader,
don't try to be an editor.
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00:14:47,959 --> 00:14:49,376
Why would you want to be?
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00:14:49,376 --> 00:14:52,500
And what editing is,
is you read something,
239
00:14:52,500 --> 00:14:58,542
and you have a sense,
'Oh, if he did this, if she did that,
240
00:14:58,542 --> 00:15:00,460
it would be better of what it is.'
241
00:15:01,001 --> 00:15:02,500
Publishing is essentially...
242
00:15:02,500 --> 00:15:06,751
From the publisher's point of view,
it's really very simple.
243
00:15:06,751 --> 00:15:11,126
It is making public your own enthusiasm.
244
00:15:11,126 --> 00:15:13,084
So here's a story.
245
00:15:14,043 --> 00:15:17,709
You can't know what people
are gonna be interested in.
246
00:15:18,251 --> 00:15:21,126
Bob Caro is the perfect example of this.
247
00:15:21,126 --> 00:15:23,209
At some point in the early '70s,
248
00:15:23,209 --> 00:15:28,126
I had signed on the book that eventually
became The Power Broker,
249
00:15:28,126 --> 00:15:30,626
the book about Robert Moses
and New York City.
250
00:15:30,626 --> 00:15:33,709
And although I grew up in New York City
251
00:15:33,709 --> 00:15:36,043
and I'm a New Yorker
and I love New York,
252
00:15:36,043 --> 00:15:39,667
the story of Robert Moses was not one
253
00:15:39,667 --> 00:15:42,251
that suggested
a barrel full of laughs to me.
254
00:15:42,251 --> 00:15:46,209
But, because Caro is such a genius
at what he does,
255
00:15:46,209 --> 00:15:49,293
it was instantly hailed as a classic.
256
00:15:49,293 --> 00:15:55,126
Little did we know that in his case,
Lyndon Johnson was looming on the horizon.
257
00:15:55,126 --> 00:15:58,751
And Lyndon Johnson is still
looming on the horizon
258
00:15:58,751 --> 00:16:02,168
because he is now working on volume five
259
00:16:02,168 --> 00:16:04,168
of a three-volume biography.
260
00:16:05,460 --> 00:16:09,043
And it's really an actuarial issue
261
00:16:09,043 --> 00:16:13,542
as to whether he and I will survive
to the end of this.
262
00:16:13,542 --> 00:16:17,876
Since I'm older than he is,
I'm hoping that he'll be the survivor.
263
00:16:18,834 --> 00:16:20,667
Because we need to see
this thing finished.
264
00:16:36,834 --> 00:16:40,542
- So you walk here in the mornings?
- Yes. It's a great time.
265
00:16:40,542 --> 00:16:44,043
You just think, you know.
I used to run. I can't run anymore.
266
00:16:44,043 --> 00:16:47,709
That was my best time.
How I really thought.
267
00:16:47,709 --> 00:16:51,501
You know, it just started coming,
the first few paragraphs or whatever.
268
00:16:52,709 --> 00:16:53,918
It's interesting.
269
00:16:53,918 --> 00:16:55,918
The other morning, I looked around,
270
00:16:55,918 --> 00:17:01,542
every other person was
doing something with a device,
271
00:17:01,542 --> 00:17:06,168
and I was walking along,
thinking I'm really out of touch
272
00:17:06,168 --> 00:17:07,709
with the modern age.
273
00:17:10,001 --> 00:17:14,418
I write a lot of drafts, until it gets
to a certain point, on the typewriter...
274
00:17:14,418 --> 00:17:18,084
On longhand,
and then I go to the typewriter.
275
00:17:18,084 --> 00:17:20,751
It's not a fixed... It's not a fixed...
276
00:17:22,001 --> 00:17:26,667
I'm typing, actually, now the paragraphs
I thought of when I was walking today.
277
00:17:29,501 --> 00:17:32,376
But they're not so good,
so I'll probably throw it out.
278
00:17:37,293 --> 00:17:43,335
I never was interested in doing a book
just to tell the story of a great man.
279
00:17:43,335 --> 00:17:47,126
I was always interested in trying
to use that life
280
00:17:47,126 --> 00:17:50,542
to show things about political power.
281
00:17:50,542 --> 00:17:55,126
We live in a democracy,
so political power ultimately
282
00:17:55,126 --> 00:17:58,584
is supposed to come from us,
from the ballot box.
283
00:17:58,584 --> 00:18:03,918
So therefore, the more I could find out
about how political power really worked,
284
00:18:03,918 --> 00:18:09,751
not how it worked in textbooks,
but how it really worked, then the more...
285
00:18:09,751 --> 00:18:16,085
If I could tell people about that in a way
that would make them understand it,
286
00:18:16,085 --> 00:18:18,793
then the better informed
their votes would be.
287
00:18:19,418 --> 00:18:22,918
And then hopefully
the better our democracy would be.
288
00:18:27,001 --> 00:18:31,001
From the time he was a little boy,
I think he wanted to be a writer.
289
00:18:33,626 --> 00:18:35,584
He fell in love with books.
290
00:18:36,335 --> 00:18:39,043
When he was young,
people wanted to be writers.
291
00:18:40,293 --> 00:18:45,168
Books really had an impact
and could change things.
292
00:18:45,168 --> 00:18:47,918
And if you don't feel
that you can have an impact,
293
00:18:47,918 --> 00:18:53,210
you wouldn't spend so much of your life
and work so hard doing this.
294
00:18:56,293 --> 00:18:59,043
Bob actually had
a pretty rotten childhood.
295
00:18:59,793 --> 00:19:02,418
He wasn't allowed
to have music in the house.
296
00:19:02,918 --> 00:19:04,751
He couldn't bring friends home,
297
00:19:05,335 --> 00:19:08,626
and his favorite place
was going to the library
298
00:19:08,626 --> 00:19:10,168
and picking up a book.
299
00:19:10,168 --> 00:19:13,542
He would bring the book
to Central Park on the weekends,
300
00:19:13,542 --> 00:19:16,542
and read it there all day long
so he wouldn't have to go home.
301
00:19:17,918 --> 00:19:22,335
You say that you did not grow up
in a house of books
302
00:19:22,335 --> 00:19:26,959
and that was not part of something
that was important to your dad.
303
00:19:26,959 --> 00:19:29,959
Your mother became ill
when you were quite young.
304
00:19:29,959 --> 00:19:32,626
Well, my mother got very sick
when I was 5.
305
00:19:32,626 --> 00:19:35,751
In those days, if you had breast cancer
and it came back,
306
00:19:35,751 --> 00:19:39,876
there was very little... Nothing, really,
that they could do for you.
307
00:19:39,876 --> 00:19:43,001
So she died when I was 11.
308
00:19:44,418 --> 00:19:47,918
My father... He spoke English.
He came over here from Poland.
309
00:19:47,918 --> 00:19:51,501
He taught himself to write English
by copying out whole articles
310
00:19:51,501 --> 00:19:53,335
in The New York Times.
311
00:19:53,335 --> 00:19:56,335
His language with his friends was Yiddish.
312
00:19:56,335 --> 00:19:59,793
But before she died,
my mother made him promise to send me
313
00:19:59,793 --> 00:20:02,335
to the Horace Mann School.
314
00:20:02,335 --> 00:20:08,834
And the Horace Mann School, therefore,
became, really, the center of my boyhood.
315
00:20:08,834 --> 00:20:12,210
Bob spent as much time there as he could.
316
00:20:12,210 --> 00:20:14,709
He never wanted to come home.
317
00:20:14,709 --> 00:20:18,043
The few times that he brought
somebody home with him,
318
00:20:18,834 --> 00:20:21,168
he was thoroughly embarrassed
319
00:20:21,168 --> 00:20:24,001
by his father yelling at him
or screaming at him.
320
00:20:24,001 --> 00:20:27,126
And it was really very hard on Bob.
321
00:20:33,001 --> 00:20:34,918
I met Bob at Princeton.
322
00:20:36,001 --> 00:20:40,043
This is the very moment
that Ina and I met.
323
00:20:40,668 --> 00:20:43,542
I saw Ina dancing by with some guy,
324
00:20:43,542 --> 00:20:46,626
and I said, 'Why don't we take
a picture with her?'
325
00:20:46,626 --> 00:20:49,918
So I went down,
and that's actually the moment we met.
326
00:20:57,501 --> 00:21:03,043
I was a young reporter at Newsday,
still doing very short stories.
327
00:21:03,043 --> 00:21:06,335
And we had a managing editor,
Alan Hathway,
328
00:21:06,335 --> 00:21:11,126
who really had a prejudice against people
from prestigious universities.
329
00:21:11,126 --> 00:21:16,918
I went to Princeton, and they hired me
while he was on vacation as a joke on him.
330
00:21:19,418 --> 00:21:23,584
So he would walk by my desk
every day on the way to his office
331
00:21:23,584 --> 00:21:25,501
and he'd never talk to me.
332
00:21:25,501 --> 00:21:30,501
So this one day I had to go through
a bunch of files at a federal agency,
333
00:21:30,501 --> 00:21:32,584
and I wrote a long memo.
334
00:21:32,584 --> 00:21:36,751
And the next morning, very early,
his secretary called me and said:
335
00:21:36,751 --> 00:21:38,876
'Alan wants to see you right away.'
336
00:21:38,876 --> 00:21:42,460
And all the way into the office,
I was sure I was gonna be fired.
337
00:21:43,335 --> 00:21:45,501
He waved me to a chair and he said:
338
00:21:45,501 --> 00:21:49,584
'I didn't know someone from Princeton
could go through files like this.
339
00:21:49,584 --> 00:21:52,335
From now on, you do investigative work.'
340
00:21:52,335 --> 00:21:56,543
Well, I have great savoir faire
at moments like this.
341
00:21:56,543 --> 00:21:58,543
And what I said to him was:
342
00:21:58,543 --> 00:22:01,709
'But I don't know anything
about investigative work.'
343
00:22:02,626 --> 00:22:08,043
And he looked up at me
for what I remember as a very long time
344
00:22:08,043 --> 00:22:13,918
and said, 'Just remember one thing:
turn every page.
345
00:22:13,918 --> 00:22:17,835
Never assume anything.
Turn every goddamn page.'
346
00:22:22,793 --> 00:22:25,043
How did you come to write
The Power Broker?
347
00:22:25,668 --> 00:22:28,335
I got more and more interested
in politics.
348
00:22:29,210 --> 00:22:32,543
And I started to feel that that was
what I wanted to write about:
349
00:22:32,543 --> 00:22:33,751
Political power.
350
00:22:33,751 --> 00:22:37,918
And it all started to come together
for me in Robert Moses.
351
00:22:38,626 --> 00:22:41,168
A power broker who built more public works
352
00:22:41,168 --> 00:22:43,001
than anyone else in American history,
353
00:22:43,001 --> 00:22:46,085
and imposed his will on governors
and mayors in the process.
354
00:22:46,085 --> 00:22:47,584
That was Robert Moses.
355
00:22:47,584 --> 00:22:51,335
Nobody in history has built
like Robert Moses.
356
00:22:51,335 --> 00:22:54,543
No pharaoh of Egypt,
no emperor, no king,
357
00:22:54,543 --> 00:22:57,709
has ever built on the face of the Earth
358
00:22:57,709 --> 00:23:00,335
on the scale
that this one human being did.
359
00:23:00,335 --> 00:23:03,835
You know, when you fly over New York
and you look down,
360
00:23:03,835 --> 00:23:05,709
it's a landscape by Moses.
361
00:23:07,210 --> 00:23:09,918
Power is supposed to come
from being elected.
362
00:23:09,918 --> 00:23:13,127
But here was a man
who was never elected to anything.
363
00:23:13,127 --> 00:23:15,543
He had more power than anyone
who was elected.
364
00:23:15,543 --> 00:23:18,918
He had more power than any mayor,
more power than any governor,
365
00:23:18,918 --> 00:23:22,168
more power than any mayor
and governor put together.
366
00:23:22,168 --> 00:23:25,210
He held this power for 44 years.
367
00:23:25,210 --> 00:23:27,127
So where did the power come from?
368
00:23:28,210 --> 00:23:31,751
It took Caro years and years
to understand it,
369
00:23:31,751 --> 00:23:36,918
and no one suspected it was an invention
of a way to find power and use it.
370
00:23:36,918 --> 00:23:39,501
What Caro revealed was that
371
00:23:39,501 --> 00:23:42,835
Moses had built up
this extraordinary empire
372
00:23:42,835 --> 00:23:44,543
and influence over the city
373
00:23:44,543 --> 00:23:48,377
out of this unusual institutional form
of the public authority.
374
00:23:49,001 --> 00:23:52,751
Starting, really,
with the Triborough Bridge Authority.
375
00:23:52,751 --> 00:23:56,668
And that gave him access
to the funds from the tolls.
376
00:23:56,668 --> 00:24:00,252
Public authorities were just treated
as something
377
00:24:00,252 --> 00:24:03,335
that sold bonds to raise the money
to build a bridge,
378
00:24:03,335 --> 00:24:06,293
collect the tolls
until they could pay off the bonds,
379
00:24:06,293 --> 00:24:07,668
and then went out of business.
380
00:24:07,668 --> 00:24:12,001
No one saw that they were a source
of immense political power.
381
00:24:13,127 --> 00:24:18,584
And so he literally built up
this huge empire inside of New York City
382
00:24:19,168 --> 00:24:20,918
out of nickels and dimes.
383
00:24:25,293 --> 00:24:28,793
It was really important
that people read this book.
384
00:24:29,419 --> 00:24:34,168
And they weren't going to read
a book on Robert Moses
385
00:24:34,168 --> 00:24:37,001
unless right at the beginning,
in the introduction,
386
00:24:37,001 --> 00:24:42,335
I did something to make them understand
how important he was,
387
00:24:42,335 --> 00:24:46,751
the scope of what he did,
and how it affects everybody's lives.
388
00:24:46,751 --> 00:24:49,335
So it's one thing
to say Robert Moses built
389
00:24:49,335 --> 00:24:52,751
627 miles of expressways and parkways.
390
00:24:52,751 --> 00:24:57,543
That's not going to get anyone
to read the book. That's just a statistic.
391
00:24:57,543 --> 00:25:02,043
So at that point, I said,
'Well, I remember The Iliad.'
392
00:25:02,043 --> 00:25:05,168
I'm not comparing myself with Homer,
393
00:25:05,168 --> 00:25:09,460
but a great book...
Great writing can serve as a model.
394
00:25:09,460 --> 00:25:14,002
And I said, 'Homer did it, you know,
by just listing all the countries.'
395
00:25:14,002 --> 00:25:16,543
There was something... Real power in that.
396
00:25:16,543 --> 00:25:19,335
And the names of the ships,
real power in that.
397
00:25:19,335 --> 00:25:22,584
I said,
'I'll just try listing all these roads.'
398
00:25:23,210 --> 00:25:28,460
I said, 'Well, that's better,
but it's really nothing yet.'
399
00:25:28,460 --> 00:25:33,460
Said, 'What can you do?' So I said,
'Maybe I can do it with rhythm.'
400
00:25:35,085 --> 00:25:40,460
I remember the days, if not weeks,
of trying to figure this out.
401
00:25:40,460 --> 00:25:45,294
What is the rhythm that will work
to show the immensity of this achievement?
402
00:25:52,584 --> 00:25:54,543
You wanna start...
You wanna do from the top?
403
00:25:56,002 --> 00:26:00,501
'No mayor shaped New York...
No mayor, not even LaGuardia,
404
00:26:00,501 --> 00:26:06,543
left upon its roiling surface more
than the faintest of lasting imprints.
405
00:26:07,710 --> 00:26:11,127
But Robert Moses shaped New York.
406
00:26:12,751 --> 00:26:16,501
He built the Major Deegan Expressway,
the Van Wyk Expressway,
407
00:26:16,501 --> 00:26:19,543
the Sheridan Expressway
and the Bruckner Expressway.
408
00:26:19,543 --> 00:26:23,419
He built the Gowanus Expressway,
the Prospect Expressway,
409
00:26:23,419 --> 00:26:26,585
the Whitestone Expressway,
the Clearview Expressway,
410
00:26:26,585 --> 00:26:29,335
and the Throgs Neck Expressway.
411
00:26:29,335 --> 00:26:33,002
He built the Cross Bronx Expressway
and the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway,
412
00:26:33,002 --> 00:26:35,960
the Nassau Expressway,
the Staten Island Expressway
413
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,002
and the Long Island Expressway.
414
00:26:38,002 --> 00:26:42,127
He built the Harlem River Drive
and the West Side Highway.'
415
00:26:44,835 --> 00:26:47,918
I got a grant for a year.
416
00:26:47,918 --> 00:26:51,835
On the basis of that,
I quit my job as a reporter,
417
00:26:51,835 --> 00:26:54,252
thinking I might be done in a year.
418
00:26:54,252 --> 00:26:57,918
But of course, at the end of a year,
I had barely started.
419
00:26:57,918 --> 00:27:03,377
So the deeper I got into this book,
the more I thought of quitting.
420
00:27:03,377 --> 00:27:07,294
And, you know, of course you thought
about that a lot because
421
00:27:07,294 --> 00:27:11,626
we had a young child,
and we were really broke.
422
00:27:13,168 --> 00:27:15,626
We sold our house on Long Island.
423
00:27:15,626 --> 00:27:20,043
We moved to this apartment in the Bronx,
which we truly hated.
424
00:27:20,043 --> 00:27:23,210
But I felt, gee, this is something
425
00:27:23,835 --> 00:27:27,751
that really has to be explained.
426
00:27:27,751 --> 00:27:31,710
Found out and explained.
It's important to do it.
427
00:27:32,835 --> 00:27:34,210
You have to understand,
428
00:27:34,210 --> 00:27:36,918
no one could have been more isolated
than Ina and me.
429
00:27:36,918 --> 00:27:38,668
I mean, we are up in the Bronx.
430
00:27:38,668 --> 00:27:40,501
I knew a couple of writers
431
00:27:40,501 --> 00:27:42,835
'cause I had worked
in the Frederick Lewis Allen Room
432
00:27:42,835 --> 00:27:46,626
at the Public Library,
but I knew nothing about publishing.
433
00:27:48,085 --> 00:27:49,626
The publishing world.
434
00:27:49,626 --> 00:27:53,543
In 1970, when Lynn agreed to be my agent
435
00:27:53,543 --> 00:27:57,918
and Bob agreed to be my editor,
that week, my entire life changed.
436
00:28:02,626 --> 00:28:07,460
There are other kinds of landscapes,
not just the built ones.
437
00:28:08,419 --> 00:28:11,169
The landscape of publishing,
438
00:28:11,169 --> 00:28:15,751
from the 1950s until the present
that we all live in,
439
00:28:15,751 --> 00:28:21,252
is a landscape that was largely
created by Bob Gottlieb.
440
00:28:23,835 --> 00:28:26,419
That's probably the book
I'm most associated with.
441
00:28:26,419 --> 00:28:28,252
Really? Why do you think that is?
442
00:28:28,252 --> 00:28:32,043
Well, 'cause it's been such
a huge success and so influential.
443
00:28:32,043 --> 00:28:36,501
And also 'cause my real claim to fame
is that I chose this number.
444
00:28:36,501 --> 00:28:40,710
- Really? How did that...? Why?
- It was originally Catch-18.
445
00:28:40,710 --> 00:28:45,501
Another major novelist was
coming out with a war book.
446
00:28:45,501 --> 00:28:49,543
- What's it called?
- Mila 18. We couldn't...
447
00:28:49,543 --> 00:28:52,335
And this was the first novel
by someone no one had ever heard of.
448
00:28:52,335 --> 00:28:54,710
So we had to change our number.
It was a tragedy.
449
00:28:54,710 --> 00:28:58,543
So I was lying in bed, worrying,
and I thought, Catch-22.
450
00:28:58,543 --> 00:29:01,294
And I called him in the morning
and said, 'I've got it.
451
00:29:01,294 --> 00:29:04,335
It's 22, it's even funnier than 18.'
452
00:29:04,335 --> 00:29:08,335
And we convinced ourselves
that it was funny, so we were very happy.
453
00:29:08,335 --> 00:29:09,543
And it's still selling.
454
00:29:12,252 --> 00:29:15,752
Here's a lot of Doris's stuff,
starting with her most famous book,
455
00:29:15,752 --> 00:29:17,043
The Golden Notebook.
456
00:29:17,626 --> 00:29:20,294
That was the second book
of hers I published.
457
00:29:20,294 --> 00:29:21,419
What is it about?
458
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,752
Well, it's about women.
459
00:29:24,501 --> 00:29:29,752
Feminism. Men. Life. The universe.
460
00:29:29,752 --> 00:29:33,377
She was an amazing person
and wonderful writer.
461
00:29:34,710 --> 00:29:37,335
There's Toni Morrison.
So, what of these books have you edited?
462
00:29:37,335 --> 00:29:40,002
Well, all, really.
463
00:29:40,002 --> 00:29:42,335
- All but Sula, right?
- No, Sula I did edit.
464
00:29:42,335 --> 00:29:43,419
Oh, you did edit that.
465
00:29:43,419 --> 00:29:45,877
That was the first book
of hers I worked on.
466
00:29:45,877 --> 00:29:49,461
You've been working with Toni
as long as you've been working with Caro.
467
00:29:49,461 --> 00:29:52,335
Do you have the same kind of fights
with her that you do with Caro?
468
00:29:52,335 --> 00:29:55,585
Thing is, Toni and I read the same way.
469
00:29:55,585 --> 00:30:00,294
Our backgrounds are so different,
but our reading experience is so similar.
470
00:30:00,294 --> 00:30:03,377
We don't always agree,
particularly about commas,
471
00:30:04,002 --> 00:30:07,044
which were a perpetual state of war.
472
00:30:07,044 --> 00:30:08,127
But...
473
00:30:11,294 --> 00:30:13,918
I only have to breathe it and she gets it,
474
00:30:13,918 --> 00:30:17,668
and she only has to breathe it
and I understand her response.
475
00:30:17,668 --> 00:30:19,960
A Mercy. Very good book, by the way.
476
00:30:20,585 --> 00:30:23,044
Beloved, of course. What editions?
477
00:30:23,044 --> 00:30:26,127
There, see, that's one edition.
There's another edition.
478
00:30:26,127 --> 00:30:28,044
Toni remembers that with Sula,
479
00:30:28,044 --> 00:30:30,461
in the first paragraph
of the original manuscript,
480
00:30:30,461 --> 00:30:32,044
there was a cat.
481
00:30:32,044 --> 00:30:36,668
And what she remembers is,
I said, 'No cat in the first paragraph.'
482
00:30:36,668 --> 00:30:39,626
So that cat was yanked out of Sula.
483
00:30:39,626 --> 00:30:43,543
Editors have to be cruel
in order to be kind. Like grandfathers.
484
00:30:44,419 --> 00:30:45,835
Works the same way.
485
00:30:47,252 --> 00:30:50,002
- I saw an image before. Is that him?
- Yep.
486
00:30:50,002 --> 00:30:51,585
Really? Oh, my gosh.
487
00:30:51,585 --> 00:30:54,252
That's... Hey, we were all young
when we were young.
488
00:30:54,252 --> 00:30:56,085
You know, that's the nature of young.
489
00:30:56,710 --> 00:30:57,835
You're young.
490
00:30:59,210 --> 00:31:01,294
I was born with extra energy.
491
00:31:05,461 --> 00:31:08,252
I poured it into my reading,
that's what I did.
492
00:31:08,252 --> 00:31:10,169
I used my energy as a reader
493
00:31:10,169 --> 00:31:15,585
'cause I certainly didn't do
anything physical, like sports, you know.
494
00:31:17,002 --> 00:31:19,918
We lived just a few doors down
from Central Park.
495
00:31:19,918 --> 00:31:22,461
I would never go into it.
496
00:31:23,543 --> 00:31:25,793
My mother made me stand outside
497
00:31:25,793 --> 00:31:28,793
on the street for an hour every day
so I would get fresh air.
498
00:31:28,793 --> 00:31:32,543
So I stood next to the doorman
and played with my yo-yo.
499
00:31:33,419 --> 00:31:36,252
He talks of himself as a miserable child.
500
00:31:36,252 --> 00:31:40,668
A few people I've known who knew him
at school, they said he was adorable.
501
00:31:41,543 --> 00:31:42,793
And sweet.
502
00:31:43,627 --> 00:31:46,501
But that's not how he saw himself.
503
00:31:47,835 --> 00:31:50,419
And I think he didn't see himself that way
504
00:31:50,419 --> 00:31:52,918
because he had a father
who didn't see him that way.
505
00:31:55,377 --> 00:31:59,127
My father was a lawyer named Charles.
He did nothing but work.
506
00:31:59,127 --> 00:32:01,919
My father was an angry person,
507
00:32:01,919 --> 00:32:06,085
and some of his anger,
I think, was deflected to me.
508
00:32:07,210 --> 00:32:09,127
So I was never good enough.
509
00:32:10,419 --> 00:32:13,127
Whereas of course, to my mother,
I was perfect.
510
00:32:14,210 --> 00:32:16,543
My mother was a public school teacher.
511
00:32:17,210 --> 00:32:20,210
We read morning, noon and night.
512
00:32:21,044 --> 00:32:25,377
At dinner, we would all sit,
each with his or her own book.
513
00:32:27,627 --> 00:32:29,252
I was at Columbia in New York,
514
00:32:29,252 --> 00:32:32,336
then I was at Cambridge in England
for a couple of years.
515
00:32:32,336 --> 00:32:37,002
By the time I was 21,
I was married and we had a baby boy.
516
00:32:37,793 --> 00:32:40,752
The next few years were very happy
on the surface,
517
00:32:40,752 --> 00:32:43,336
but underneath I was not a happy camper.
518
00:32:45,002 --> 00:32:48,919
And in 1958,
I went into Freudian analysis,
519
00:32:48,919 --> 00:32:51,877
four days a week
on the couch for eight years.
520
00:32:51,877 --> 00:32:55,919
'Cause I did not want to become
the angry person my father was,
521
00:32:55,919 --> 00:32:59,211
and I could feel myself drifting
in that direction.
522
00:32:59,835 --> 00:33:04,085
- And did it work?
- Did the psychoanalysis work?
523
00:33:04,085 --> 00:33:05,294
Well, you tell me.
524
00:33:06,419 --> 00:33:09,877
Yes, it made
a tremendous difference in my life.
525
00:33:09,877 --> 00:33:13,668
During those eight years of analysis,
various things happened,
526
00:33:13,668 --> 00:33:15,585
such as my mother dying.
527
00:33:16,419 --> 00:33:19,085
The year in analysis
when I lay on my back
528
00:33:19,085 --> 00:33:20,585
and did nothing but cry.
529
00:33:21,211 --> 00:33:23,252
And during that time, I got divorced.
530
00:33:24,169 --> 00:33:28,085
I met and engaged with your mother.
531
00:33:28,877 --> 00:33:30,336
A fatal gesture.
532
00:33:30,877 --> 00:33:32,919
I first met Bob when my father,
533
00:33:32,919 --> 00:33:35,877
who was being published
at Simon & Schuster,
534
00:33:35,877 --> 00:33:38,294
brought me into the office
to meet Bob Gottlieb.
535
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,710
She was appearing on Broadway
in that famous,
536
00:33:41,710 --> 00:33:43,336
horrible play called The Deputy,
537
00:33:43,336 --> 00:33:47,752
and she was unbelievably
beautiful and talented.
538
00:33:49,169 --> 00:33:54,960
The moment I met him, actually,
he said to me, 'I'm damaged goods.'
539
00:33:56,419 --> 00:33:59,377
He said, 'I'm bad with children and dogs.'
540
00:34:01,794 --> 00:34:05,585
And so the first thing I thought was,
'We're gonna get a dog,
541
00:34:05,585 --> 00:34:07,085
and we'll have a baby.'
542
00:34:16,627 --> 00:34:18,752
How did you get into publishing?
543
00:34:18,752 --> 00:34:21,668
I was this nerdy boy out of college,
544
00:34:21,668 --> 00:34:25,461
and I had read more than anybody
in the world, of course.
545
00:34:26,044 --> 00:34:29,336
And nobody would even look at me,
let alone hire me,
546
00:34:29,336 --> 00:34:32,502
'cause I was this scruffy,
arrogant person.
547
00:34:33,336 --> 00:34:35,419
Finally, I encountered
an employment agent,
548
00:34:35,419 --> 00:34:38,461
and she took to me,
which no one previously ever had.
549
00:34:38,461 --> 00:34:42,419
And she said, 'There's only one place
you can work, Simon & Schuster.'
550
00:34:43,211 --> 00:34:47,211
So I came in on Friday,
for an appointment with Jack Goodman.
551
00:34:47,211 --> 00:34:49,419
So he said,
'Why don't you write me a letter
552
00:34:49,419 --> 00:34:51,919
saying why you want to be in publishing.'
553
00:34:51,919 --> 00:34:54,086
And this really offended me.
554
00:34:54,086 --> 00:34:56,919
So I went home,
this was a Friday, and I wrote:
555
00:34:56,919 --> 00:35:01,668
'Dear Mr. Goodman, you've asked me
to say why I want to be in publishing.
556
00:35:01,668 --> 00:35:03,461
I find that impossible to do,
557
00:35:03,461 --> 00:35:06,336
since it has never occurred to me
to be in anything else.'
558
00:35:07,752 --> 00:35:10,877
And I put it in an envelope
and left it at the front desk.
559
00:35:10,877 --> 00:35:13,002
Now, this was a complete lie
560
00:35:13,002 --> 00:35:16,627
'cause it had never occurred to me
to be anything except a reader.
561
00:35:17,752 --> 00:35:22,627
I started in 1955,
so I was earning $75 a week.
562
00:35:22,627 --> 00:35:24,960
It was beyond my wildest dreams.
563
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:29,461
I had been there two days
when I was so in love with it.
564
00:35:29,461 --> 00:35:31,419
It was so perfect for me.
565
00:35:32,252 --> 00:35:37,710
Within a year or two, I was editing books,
and soon I was editing a lot of books.
566
00:35:46,919 --> 00:35:49,252
I was always, I have to say,
very sure of myself.
567
00:35:49,252 --> 00:35:51,294
I never doubted my editorial judgments.
568
00:35:51,294 --> 00:35:55,002
I doubted everything else about me,
but not that.
569
00:35:55,002 --> 00:36:00,378
'Cause I really knew that I was
a better reader than anybody else.
570
00:36:01,294 --> 00:36:03,835
And time has not proved me wrong.
571
00:36:03,835 --> 00:36:05,877
Not that I haven't made
a hundred mistakes,
572
00:36:05,877 --> 00:36:07,502
but that's a different story.
573
00:36:07,502 --> 00:36:12,502
From the beginning, when a writer
or an agent has given me a manuscript,
574
00:36:12,502 --> 00:36:16,294
I've read it overnight
and gotten back to them the next day,
575
00:36:16,294 --> 00:36:18,252
or at worst, over the weekend.
576
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,919
To me, not doing that
was cruelty to animals.
577
00:36:21,919 --> 00:36:24,919
But, also, I couldn't wait.
578
00:36:24,919 --> 00:36:29,336
It wasn't out of nobility, although,
as you know, I have that.
579
00:36:29,336 --> 00:36:31,710
But it was out of curiosity.
580
00:36:31,710 --> 00:36:34,877
What has she done? How does it work out?
581
00:36:34,877 --> 00:36:36,794
Why do I want to put it
on my bedside table
582
00:36:36,794 --> 00:36:38,543
and not read it for three weeks?
583
00:36:38,543 --> 00:36:41,794
You're going to have to read it anyway.
Why not read it right away?
584
00:36:41,794 --> 00:36:44,710
So I think that encouraged people
to send me things,
585
00:36:44,710 --> 00:36:46,752
and it certainly was good for my writers.
586
00:36:49,752 --> 00:36:54,627
In 1968, I left Simon & Schuster,
where I was the editor-in-chief,
587
00:36:54,627 --> 00:36:56,419
and went to Knopf.
588
00:36:56,419 --> 00:37:01,585
He came in like a cyclone, like a tornado,
and changed everything.
589
00:37:02,794 --> 00:37:04,961
As head of Knopf,
he would see everything.
590
00:37:04,961 --> 00:37:08,794
One of his dictums is,
if you get every detail right,
591
00:37:08,794 --> 00:37:10,211
you get the best book.
592
00:37:10,211 --> 00:37:15,086
Because you don't know what sells a book.
Is it the jacket? Is it the flap copy?
593
00:37:15,086 --> 00:37:16,961
Certainly the way the book is edited.
594
00:37:16,961 --> 00:37:19,044
You have to do everything right,
every detail.
595
00:37:19,710 --> 00:37:22,710
I learned from him
everything about publishing.
596
00:37:23,919 --> 00:37:25,669
The importance of the author,
597
00:37:25,669 --> 00:37:30,419
and how we are the representative
and advocate and promoter of the author.
598
00:37:30,419 --> 00:37:33,211
And we are standing up
for the author at every turn
599
00:37:33,211 --> 00:37:35,710
because the author's out there alone.
600
00:37:35,710 --> 00:37:37,877
And we're only here
because of the authors.
601
00:37:40,086 --> 00:37:43,710
At Knopf, I was the president,
publisher, the editor-in-chief,
602
00:37:43,710 --> 00:37:46,211
the editor of 20 to 30 books a year.
603
00:37:55,378 --> 00:37:57,543
With, at home, an actress wife...
604
00:38:00,835 --> 00:38:02,919
children, including you.
605
00:38:05,002 --> 00:38:08,044
While, in my other life,
606
00:38:08,044 --> 00:38:10,835
helping to run the New York City Ballet...
607
00:38:12,127 --> 00:38:15,127
for George Balanchine
and his partner, Lincoln Kirstein.
608
00:38:15,127 --> 00:38:19,794
I ended up doing all the programing
of the ballets of the season,
609
00:38:19,794 --> 00:38:21,669
overseeing all the marketing.
610
00:38:21,669 --> 00:38:26,169
So I loved that.
That was the other side of my life.
611
00:38:27,127 --> 00:38:29,086
And I was reading.
612
00:38:29,086 --> 00:38:31,002
But I wasn't doing anything else.
613
00:38:32,294 --> 00:38:33,936
I wasn't going out.
I wasn't going to movies.
614
00:38:33,936 --> 00:38:36,835
I wasn't doing anything
but the things I chose to do.
615
00:38:36,835 --> 00:38:40,294
So there was enough energy.
I never felt I was falling behind.
616
00:38:40,294 --> 00:38:41,419
Also, I'm fast.
617
00:38:51,419 --> 00:38:54,461
The first thing editors have
to remember is, it's a service job.
618
00:38:54,461 --> 00:38:56,294
It's not your book.
619
00:38:57,169 --> 00:38:59,544
It's different from writer to writer.
620
00:38:59,544 --> 00:39:02,585
Sometimes it's
a highly emotional relationship
621
00:39:02,585 --> 00:39:06,461
because a transference gets made,
as in psychoanalysis.
622
00:39:07,544 --> 00:39:12,752
And the writer needs to use the editor
623
00:39:12,752 --> 00:39:17,544
for emotional or psychic reasons,
and that becomes part of the relationship.
624
00:39:17,544 --> 00:39:19,710
It's not deliberate. It happens.
625
00:39:19,710 --> 00:39:22,127
Others, no.
626
00:39:23,044 --> 00:39:25,919
Some writers need help with plot.
627
00:39:25,919 --> 00:39:30,961
If they're novelists, they need someone
to say, 'This character isn't working.
628
00:39:31,669 --> 00:39:35,128
This situation doesn't ring true to me.
Here's why.'
629
00:39:35,128 --> 00:39:36,919
That's one kind of editing.
630
00:39:36,919 --> 00:39:42,461
Others, you can't say anything to
other than 'semicolon.'
631
00:39:43,919 --> 00:39:45,378
So that's what you provide.
632
00:39:45,378 --> 00:39:49,877
You just come to sense
what will be helpful, what will serve.
633
00:39:53,877 --> 00:39:58,752
But what's complicated about it,
that suggests that you have to be egoless.
634
00:39:58,752 --> 00:40:01,502
But you might have noticed
that I am not egoless.
635
00:40:01,502 --> 00:40:04,752
So you need a strong ego...
636
00:40:05,419 --> 00:40:08,794
because there has to be...
637
00:40:09,836 --> 00:40:12,669
an equivalence of strength.
638
00:40:13,253 --> 00:40:17,502
If you are not strong enough
to give the writer what he needs,
639
00:40:17,502 --> 00:40:20,585
which is your true strong opinion,
640
00:40:21,211 --> 00:40:24,420
if you have to hold back and be nervous,
641
00:40:24,420 --> 00:40:27,336
it is not gonna work 'cause you're
not providing what's necessary.
642
00:40:27,336 --> 00:40:29,461
So there has to be an equality.
643
00:40:30,710 --> 00:40:32,378
I think it was 1970.
644
00:40:32,378 --> 00:40:35,794
All he cared about
in this first conversation,
645
00:40:35,794 --> 00:40:38,669
he wanted to talk about punctuation...
646
00:40:39,627 --> 00:40:42,669
which we've been talking about
for 45 years.
647
00:40:42,669 --> 00:40:44,836
So we started work,
and I started working on it,
648
00:40:44,836 --> 00:40:49,294
and it was clear
that it needed cutting, condensing,
649
00:40:49,294 --> 00:40:51,336
whatever polite word you want to use.
650
00:40:51,336 --> 00:40:56,336
Not because there was too much to read,
but you couldn't publish it.
651
00:40:56,336 --> 00:40:59,294
It could not have fit
into one physical volume.
652
00:40:59,294 --> 00:41:02,836
That the spine of the book could only...
653
00:41:03,877 --> 00:41:06,961
physically hold what it ended up holding,
654
00:41:06,961 --> 00:41:11,420
that it would absolutely fall
to smithereens if it went any longer.
655
00:41:11,420 --> 00:41:15,752
I asked him once
about doing it in two volumes,
656
00:41:16,502 --> 00:41:20,919
and he said, 'I might be able to get
people interested in Robert Moses once.
657
00:41:20,919 --> 00:41:24,002
I'll never get them
interested twice, ' so...
658
00:41:25,961 --> 00:41:29,002
And I agreed without... Completely.
659
00:41:29,002 --> 00:41:32,752
And I didn't think the book was
gonna sell very many copies.
660
00:41:32,752 --> 00:41:35,294
We had to get it down
to a certain length,
661
00:41:35,294 --> 00:41:40,003
which meant we had to cut
1,050,000 words down to 700,000 words.
662
00:41:40,003 --> 00:41:42,627
They had to cut 350,000 words?
663
00:41:44,128 --> 00:41:45,211
Oh, my God.
664
00:41:46,420 --> 00:41:48,919
Most books would run a seventh of that.
665
00:41:48,919 --> 00:41:51,752
There's a lot of books
that are under 100,000 words.
666
00:41:53,211 --> 00:41:58,544
The material was wonderful,
so it was very hard to give it up.
667
00:41:58,544 --> 00:42:02,502
It's not like the usual situation
where, as the editor, you think:
668
00:42:02,502 --> 00:42:06,003
'Oh, my God. This is boring.
There's too much of this.
669
00:42:06,003 --> 00:42:08,752
We gotta get rid of some of this.'
Or, 'This is repetitive.'
670
00:42:08,752 --> 00:42:12,544
But here, the problem was that I didn't
want to get rid of this material either,
671
00:42:12,544 --> 00:42:13,711
but it had to go.
672
00:42:14,461 --> 00:42:15,461
So...
673
00:42:16,919 --> 00:42:20,794
Bob agreed in theory,
and then we began doing the work.
674
00:42:20,794 --> 00:42:24,961
I would offer him my suggestions,
and we would go back and forth.
675
00:42:26,128 --> 00:42:28,752
He had this whole publishing house to run,
676
00:42:28,752 --> 00:42:31,627
but I would get there
in the morning about 10:00,
677
00:42:31,627 --> 00:42:35,336
and he would shut the door
to his office every day,
678
00:42:35,336 --> 00:42:39,544
and we would work
for three or four hours a day.
679
00:42:39,544 --> 00:42:41,295
I remember when he'd open it,
680
00:42:41,295 --> 00:42:44,711
there'd be sometimes
a line of editors out in the hall
681
00:42:44,711 --> 00:42:47,669
waiting for his decisions on things.
682
00:42:47,669 --> 00:42:51,253
But for that time, the two of us
683
00:42:51,253 --> 00:42:56,044
were just concentrating
with a real sort of fierceness
684
00:42:56,044 --> 00:42:58,169
on how to cut this book.
685
00:43:09,003 --> 00:43:13,461
I've always felt that
if a nonfiction book is going to endure,
686
00:43:13,461 --> 00:43:18,877
the level of the prose and the narrative,
the rhythm, etcetera,
687
00:43:18,877 --> 00:43:23,961
the setting of scenes,
has to be at the same level
688
00:43:23,961 --> 00:43:27,544
as a great work of fiction that endures.
689
00:43:27,544 --> 00:43:29,336
Very few editors...
690
00:43:31,794 --> 00:43:36,877
and not all that many nonfiction writers,
feel that way.
691
00:43:37,461 --> 00:43:43,878
So many of them just seem to feel that
all that matters is to get the facts down.
692
00:43:44,502 --> 00:43:48,253
And your father, Bob Gottlieb,
693
00:43:48,878 --> 00:43:52,961
he cared as much
about the writing as I did.
694
00:43:53,502 --> 00:43:58,544
He's maybe the only person I ever met
who cared as much about the writing.
695
00:43:58,544 --> 00:44:02,794
Now, that doesn't mean
we agreed about the writing.
696
00:44:02,794 --> 00:44:07,502
And particularly in the... I mean,
a lot of it came down to semicolons
697
00:44:07,502 --> 00:44:09,752
'cause he thinks
I use too many semicolons.
698
00:44:09,752 --> 00:44:13,836
The great thing about Bob is also
the maddening thing about him.
699
00:44:13,836 --> 00:44:17,253
Everything is of total importance.
700
00:44:17,878 --> 00:44:20,711
The first chapter of the book
and a semicolon.
701
00:44:21,211 --> 00:44:23,086
They're of equal importance.
702
00:44:23,752 --> 00:44:27,919
And he can be equally firm,
strong, emotional,
703
00:44:27,919 --> 00:44:30,836
irrational about any of them.
704
00:44:30,836 --> 00:44:34,128
Now, I'm like that too.
So it takes one to know one.
705
00:44:34,128 --> 00:44:38,669
Because I, too, think that a semicolon
is worth fighting a civil war about.
706
00:44:40,211 --> 00:44:43,794
A semicolon has a particular function.
707
00:44:43,794 --> 00:44:48,502
A semicolon is not as much of a stop
as a period. That's a full stop.
708
00:44:48,502 --> 00:44:51,044
But it's more of a stop than a comma,
709
00:44:51,044 --> 00:44:54,461
which is just something you slide...
A little stop.
710
00:44:54,461 --> 00:44:58,544
So it has a particular function.
711
00:44:58,544 --> 00:45:03,378
He says you have a very different idea
about semicolons than he does.
712
00:45:03,378 --> 00:45:06,462
'Cause I'm an editor. He's just a writer.
713
00:45:07,086 --> 00:45:10,711
Can you imagine why two men
might fight over a semicolon?
714
00:45:10,711 --> 00:45:14,462
Well, it's misused. Frequently.
715
00:45:14,462 --> 00:45:18,336
But why is the semicolon
a confusing point of punctuation?
716
00:45:23,502 --> 00:45:24,752
Because it's...
717
00:45:28,711 --> 00:45:30,170
I know how I use it.
718
00:45:30,170 --> 00:45:34,336
Which is to say
that you would have two sentences
719
00:45:34,336 --> 00:45:38,295
that have a causal relationship,
720
00:45:38,295 --> 00:45:40,794
and they're better joined than unjoined.
721
00:45:41,462 --> 00:45:45,378
The semicolon, really, whatever way
you look at it, lengthens a sentence.
722
00:45:45,378 --> 00:45:50,420
It gives the writer permission
to write another sentence almost as long.
723
00:45:50,420 --> 00:45:55,044
Oddly enough, even though we don't know
we do, we read with our breath.
724
00:45:55,044 --> 00:45:59,336
And, you know, and you're moving down,
725
00:45:59,336 --> 00:46:03,086
and a semicolon doesn't look like a stop
726
00:46:03,086 --> 00:46:05,919
in the same way as a full stop
with a capital letter does.
727
00:46:05,919 --> 00:46:08,211
Do you often wonder about them?
728
00:46:08,211 --> 00:46:13,669
If a dash or a full stop
might just do something more?
729
00:46:15,003 --> 00:46:18,170
There is this semicolon,
730
00:46:18,170 --> 00:46:22,295
one of Robert Caro's semicolons,
in this piece that is his memoir:
731
00:46:24,128 --> 00:46:26,544
'At that time, I was constantly flying
back and forth
732
00:46:26,544 --> 00:46:28,295
between Austin and Washington.
733
00:46:28,295 --> 00:46:32,295
Papers don't die, ' semicolon,
'People do.'
734
00:46:34,378 --> 00:46:37,295
A lot of it is about tension. You know?
735
00:46:37,295 --> 00:46:41,295
You know something's coming
when you see that semicolon.
736
00:46:42,753 --> 00:46:45,753
I wasn't gonna give in
'cause it was my book, at the end.
737
00:46:45,753 --> 00:46:48,336
It was gonna be my punctuation.
738
00:46:48,336 --> 00:46:52,502
And Bob wouldn't give in
because he thought I was wrong, you know?
739
00:46:52,502 --> 00:46:55,420
And he thought he was right.
740
00:46:55,420 --> 00:46:58,627
So there was a lot
of stalking out of rooms.
741
00:47:00,336 --> 00:47:02,378
So he was the editor-in-chief,
742
00:47:02,378 --> 00:47:04,462
so he could always walk into another room
743
00:47:04,462 --> 00:47:07,295
and have a conference
with somebody about their...
744
00:47:07,919 --> 00:47:11,544
Something to do with one of their books,
or their contracts or something.
745
00:47:11,544 --> 00:47:14,961
I had no place to go except the bathroom.
746
00:47:14,961 --> 00:47:19,128
So I really spent a lot of time
in the bathroom at Knopf.
747
00:47:19,128 --> 00:47:23,878
But there was a lot
of real, real arguments.
748
00:47:23,878 --> 00:47:27,128
And, you know,
I'm a fast cutter and worker.
749
00:47:27,128 --> 00:47:30,295
But the overall process
of my working on it
750
00:47:30,295 --> 00:47:32,378
and then working with him took a year,
751
00:47:32,919 --> 00:47:36,462
which is probably ten months longer
than any other book,
752
00:47:36,462 --> 00:47:38,378
or most other books I've ever dealt with.
753
00:47:38,378 --> 00:47:43,669
And we pared it down to whatever it is,
1700 pages, I can't even remember.
754
00:47:44,295 --> 00:47:48,128
And at that, it was hard to fit it all
into one volume.
755
00:47:48,128 --> 00:47:51,170
There were moments
when I wasn't sure we could.
756
00:47:51,170 --> 00:47:54,669
Looking back on it, it was really hard.
757
00:47:54,669 --> 00:47:56,919
When I look back on my life,
758
00:47:56,919 --> 00:48:01,211
I don't think
anything was harder than that.
759
00:48:05,086 --> 00:48:09,211
As you know, the book, it's a blockbuster.
760
00:48:10,045 --> 00:48:14,961
But when you read the book,
you don't want less, you want more.
761
00:48:14,961 --> 00:48:18,544
That is the indication
of a wonderful book.
762
00:48:18,544 --> 00:48:21,295
But of course, it took him,
what, seven years?
763
00:48:22,420 --> 00:48:25,462
Let's put it mildly. He's industrious.
764
00:48:25,462 --> 00:48:29,378
And that is a quality I honor
and admire more than almost any other.
765
00:48:29,378 --> 00:48:33,669
'Cause anyone can be adorable.
But not everyone can be industrious.
766
00:48:33,669 --> 00:48:35,211
With results.
767
00:48:39,253 --> 00:48:42,544
Caro does this brilliant job
in this chapter on Jones Beach
768
00:48:42,544 --> 00:48:45,337
where he literally has
a whole section about
769
00:48:45,337 --> 00:48:48,836
the geological forces
that made Long Island.
770
00:48:48,836 --> 00:48:50,669
Like, he starts with glaciers.
771
00:48:50,669 --> 00:48:54,586
He goes back, you know,
thousands and thousands of years,
772
00:48:54,586 --> 00:48:56,462
and tells you the whole beginning of this.
773
00:48:56,462 --> 00:48:58,544
And then he starts talking about
the communities
774
00:48:58,544 --> 00:49:01,628
that formed on Long Island,
which is crucial to the story.
775
00:49:01,628 --> 00:49:03,628
So you have both the kind of wealthy folks
776
00:49:03,628 --> 00:49:06,544
in the kind of Fitzgerald, Gatsby,
North Shore communities,
777
00:49:06,544 --> 00:49:11,045
but also the kind of fisherman communities
along the South Shore.
778
00:49:11,544 --> 00:49:14,669
So you learn the kind of
sociological history of these communities,
779
00:49:14,669 --> 00:49:17,502
what they meant and where they were
geographically on the island.
780
00:49:17,502 --> 00:49:19,586
And then you have technological history.
781
00:49:19,586 --> 00:49:21,878
So he introduces
this idea of the car gets developed.
782
00:49:21,878 --> 00:49:24,086
Suddenly people are driving.
It's the early '20s.
783
00:49:24,086 --> 00:49:27,212
People have their own cars,
and they're stuck inside the city.
784
00:49:27,212 --> 00:49:29,253
They can't get to the beach.
785
00:49:29,253 --> 00:49:33,753
And in the middle of all that, then,
you have Robert Moses himself,
786
00:49:33,753 --> 00:49:35,212
who has been renting a boat
787
00:49:35,212 --> 00:49:39,753
and going out to these basically
abandoned, beautiful white-sand beaches
788
00:49:39,753 --> 00:49:42,502
and dreaming of this park.
789
00:49:42,502 --> 00:49:44,295
The chapter is actually called 'A Dream.'
790
00:49:45,502 --> 00:49:48,628
That becomes the first great project
that Moses does.
791
00:49:48,628 --> 00:49:50,045
He builds the causeway.
792
00:49:50,045 --> 00:49:53,794
He figures out getting the Southern State
highway through Long Island,
793
00:49:53,794 --> 00:49:57,878
and builds this beach, which becomes,
and to this day still is,
794
00:49:57,878 --> 00:50:01,170
you know, a beach that truly belongs
to the people of New York.
795
00:50:04,378 --> 00:50:07,544
He sets up where you don't know
what to make of Moses.
796
00:50:07,544 --> 00:50:09,295
Moses as an idealist.
797
00:50:09,295 --> 00:50:13,794
Moses as someone who really believes
in the urban space and improving it.
798
00:50:13,794 --> 00:50:15,170
And then as you go on,
799
00:50:15,170 --> 00:50:18,045
where he does these interviews
with these people in a community,
800
00:50:18,045 --> 00:50:21,045
that simply one of the expressways
went through.
801
00:50:21,045 --> 00:50:25,503
And went through so sort of vehemently
and vigorously, without any mercy.
802
00:50:25,503 --> 00:50:27,378
This community being torn asunder.
803
00:50:27,378 --> 00:50:32,544
And he will find the woman who tried
to run the community group to stop this.
804
00:50:32,544 --> 00:50:34,462
But he would interview her about her life,
805
00:50:34,462 --> 00:50:39,378
about what sort of place this was
before the expressway came.
806
00:50:39,378 --> 00:50:43,045
So in the Moses book,
he will start giving you the two things,
807
00:50:43,045 --> 00:50:46,253
but then a third will emerge,
which is that Moses is changing.
808
00:50:47,170 --> 00:50:49,920
Power is changing Moses.
809
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,711
And that the idealism is
now becoming poisoned
810
00:50:53,711 --> 00:50:59,170
by a willfulness and by an ability...
An inability to listen.
811
00:50:59,170 --> 00:51:01,462
And so this character is hardening.
812
00:51:07,753 --> 00:51:11,170
I thought my books, when I started,
were gonna be about how power worked,
813
00:51:11,170 --> 00:51:12,961
explanation of how power worked.
814
00:51:12,961 --> 00:51:16,212
There came a moment
while I was doing The Power Broker
815
00:51:16,212 --> 00:51:18,795
when I suddenly realized
that my books would have to be
816
00:51:18,795 --> 00:51:20,961
about something else, in addition.
817
00:51:20,961 --> 00:51:24,920
They were gonna have to be about
the effect of power on the powerless.
818
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:28,337
How it affected people
for good or for ill.
819
00:51:29,212 --> 00:51:33,711
I did 522 interviews for this book.
820
00:51:33,711 --> 00:51:37,212
I was trying to show
the human cost of the highways.
821
00:51:37,212 --> 00:51:39,462
You'd walk into these buildings...
822
00:51:39,462 --> 00:51:42,878
I remember this one apartment
823
00:51:42,878 --> 00:51:47,878
where I knocked at it, and there were
four or five little kids running around.
824
00:51:48,878 --> 00:51:52,753
And the mother,
no matter what question I asked her,
825
00:51:53,503 --> 00:51:56,920
she would say,
'I've gotta get my kids out of here.'
826
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,669
That's all I heard,
'I've gotta get my kids out of here.
827
00:51:59,669 --> 00:52:01,836
I've gotta get my kids out of here.'
828
00:52:03,586 --> 00:52:07,128
You know, all those years ago,
writing this book,
829
00:52:07,128 --> 00:52:09,836
and you didn't miss a beat,
still plays well.
830
00:52:09,836 --> 00:52:14,420
So much expires, 20 years later
and you're like, 'Forgot about the women.'
831
00:52:14,420 --> 00:52:17,337
Or, you know,
'Oops, that was a little racist.'
832
00:52:17,337 --> 00:52:18,711
And there's none of that.
833
00:52:18,711 --> 00:52:20,420
There's this real love of people
834
00:52:20,420 --> 00:52:25,003
and this real, you know,
sightline on how people are treated,
835
00:52:25,003 --> 00:52:26,895
whether it's women,
whether it's people of color,
836
00:52:26,895 --> 00:52:29,795
whether it's the poor,
whether it's whoever.
837
00:52:29,795 --> 00:52:32,836
Whoever is marginalized is given space.
838
00:52:35,669 --> 00:52:39,462
Literally right outside the door
of this building that we're sitting in
839
00:52:39,462 --> 00:52:40,961
is the Bruckner Expressway.
840
00:52:42,212 --> 00:52:44,961
Reading the chapter 'One Mile, '
it was very clear,
841
00:52:44,961 --> 00:52:47,295
like, these were people
who were impacted
842
00:52:47,295 --> 00:52:50,420
by the construction of a highway
843
00:52:50,420 --> 00:52:55,544
which equaled the destruction
of their way of life completely.
844
00:52:55,544 --> 00:52:57,795
And it was never gonna be the same again.
845
00:52:58,961 --> 00:53:02,253
The thing that struck me the most
was that there was a route
846
00:53:02,253 --> 00:53:06,836
that could have been taken
that would have avoided a lot of damage
847
00:53:06,836 --> 00:53:09,462
of people's homes and their businesses.
848
00:53:10,170 --> 00:53:12,795
But instead, only because Robert Moses
849
00:53:12,795 --> 00:53:15,212
had a friend who owned
one of those properties,
850
00:53:15,212 --> 00:53:18,003
he was like,
'We'll avoid your one little property,
851
00:53:18,003 --> 00:53:20,961
but we will destroy everybody else's,
just to protect yours.'
852
00:53:20,961 --> 00:53:24,920
And I just remember reading that
and being like:
853
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:29,420
'That is just one
of the most messed-up things
854
00:53:29,420 --> 00:53:31,795
I've ever heard of in my entire life.'
855
00:53:32,836 --> 00:53:37,337
Knowing that it happened
in the borough of my birth
856
00:53:37,337 --> 00:53:39,962
and that the work
that we are doing right now
857
00:53:39,962 --> 00:53:46,045
really is working to create changes
where those damages were done.
858
00:53:46,878 --> 00:53:50,212
Bob Caro's work and understanding
859
00:53:50,212 --> 00:53:55,045
of how people were affected
goes so beyond empathy.
860
00:53:56,212 --> 00:54:01,128
It was so deeply, you know,
profoundly supportive.
861
00:54:01,128 --> 00:54:04,295
There was healing in it,
and there was strength and power in it.
862
00:54:04,295 --> 00:54:09,503
It wasn't just like, 'I feel for you.'
It was more like, 'Use this.'
863
00:54:09,503 --> 00:54:14,753
I really do think that book kind of
weaponized the work that we're doing.
864
00:54:16,420 --> 00:54:20,670
I think one interesting topic
in this book is, once you gain that power,
865
00:54:20,670 --> 00:54:24,212
he felt like he needed to, like,
keep accumulating that power.
866
00:54:24,212 --> 00:54:26,420
This is the history of America
in the 20th century.
867
00:54:26,420 --> 00:54:29,045
'Moses himself believes
he will be justified by history,
868
00:54:29,045 --> 00:54:32,878
that his works will endure and be blessed
by generations not yet born.'
869
00:54:32,878 --> 00:54:34,962
- So, right, that's you guys.
- Yes.
870
00:54:34,962 --> 00:54:36,462
'Perhaps he is right.
871
00:54:36,462 --> 00:54:39,212
It is impossible to say
New York would have been a better city
872
00:54:39,212 --> 00:54:40,711
if Robert Moses had never lived.
873
00:54:40,711 --> 00:54:44,295
It is possible to say only
that it would have been a different city.'
874
00:54:44,295 --> 00:54:45,379
Yeah.
875
00:54:55,045 --> 00:54:57,337
- So The Power Broker came out.
- Yes.
876
00:54:57,337 --> 00:55:01,003
- Was it immediately a success?
- Well, you know, it...
877
00:55:02,087 --> 00:55:03,087
Yes.
878
00:55:04,212 --> 00:55:06,337
As a matter of fact.
879
00:55:09,254 --> 00:55:13,379
Everybody in the establishment...
Mayor Wagner was furious at me.
880
00:55:13,379 --> 00:55:16,878
You know, Governor Rockefeller
was really in a rage.
881
00:55:17,586 --> 00:55:22,337
And Moses, of course,
was writing these stories...
882
00:55:22,337 --> 00:55:23,795
You know, The New York Times,
883
00:55:23,795 --> 00:55:28,045
they would pretty much print
whatever Robert Moses said as a fact.
884
00:55:28,045 --> 00:55:32,670
So I would read headlines
like 'Caro, Venomous Viper, '
885
00:55:32,670 --> 00:55:33,753
that was in quotes.
886
00:55:33,753 --> 00:55:37,212
'Caro, Venomous Viper, ' comma,
'Moses said.'
887
00:55:38,003 --> 00:55:42,670
One day, Ina called and said,
'You won the Pulitzer Prize.'
888
00:55:42,670 --> 00:55:46,545
I've never been able to get excited
about things like that.
889
00:55:47,878 --> 00:55:52,753
And she really got angry at me
and she said, 'Why aren't you excited?'
890
00:55:54,379 --> 00:55:56,711
It just started to sell, you know?
891
00:55:56,711 --> 00:56:00,795
And it's gone right on selling,
without stopping,
892
00:56:01,878 --> 00:56:03,420
for almost half a century.
893
00:56:03,420 --> 00:56:07,962
And almost as long as Robert Moses
was in power, now that I think about.
894
00:56:17,462 --> 00:56:21,837
So The Power Broker was out and
the question was what he would write next.
895
00:56:22,628 --> 00:56:27,670
One thing I can't stand to do is to do
something I've done before over again.
896
00:56:27,670 --> 00:56:29,878
I just can't stand it.
897
00:56:30,586 --> 00:56:35,129
So in order to get enough money
to finish The Power Broker,
898
00:56:35,670 --> 00:56:37,795
I had to sign a two-book contract
899
00:56:37,795 --> 00:56:42,212
for a biography of Robert Moses
and a biography of Fiorello LaGuardia.
900
00:56:42,212 --> 00:56:46,295
So I finish The Power Broker
and I'm starting in on LaGuardia,
901
00:56:46,295 --> 00:56:48,837
and I'm thinking, 'I just hate this.
902
00:56:48,837 --> 00:56:53,545
I did this story. It's New York.
I already did it.' You know?
903
00:56:54,421 --> 00:56:59,545
In The Power Broker, I was trying
to show urban political power.
904
00:56:59,545 --> 00:57:02,462
Now I wanted
to show national political power.
905
00:57:02,462 --> 00:57:05,337
And I thought, I could do it
through Lyndon Johnson.
906
00:57:05,337 --> 00:57:07,421
That's the guy to do it through.
907
00:57:07,421 --> 00:57:10,254
But nobody's gonna let me out
of the LaGuardia contract.
908
00:57:10,254 --> 00:57:13,003
Your father called, and he said:
909
00:57:13,003 --> 00:57:17,087
'There's something
I want to talk to you about.'
910
00:57:17,087 --> 00:57:20,920
I think he said something like,
'I want you to hear me out.
911
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:23,920
Don't lose your temper until I finish.'
912
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:27,003
So I came in and he basically says:
913
00:57:27,003 --> 00:57:31,421
'Now, I know that you're really committed
to this LaGuardia biography.'
914
00:57:32,087 --> 00:57:35,712
I said, you know,
'LaGuardia is a fascinating figure,
915
00:57:35,712 --> 00:57:39,920
but I don't think
this is a big enough subject.
916
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:42,379
What you're interested in is in power.'
917
00:57:43,254 --> 00:57:46,753
And out of my mouth came these words,
918
00:57:46,753 --> 00:57:50,837
which I had not really considered before,
which is the way I usually operate.
919
00:57:51,795 --> 00:57:55,003
'I think the person you should write about
is Lyndon Johnson
920
00:57:55,003 --> 00:58:00,545
because he exemplifies the use of power
more than anyone else in our time.'
921
00:58:00,545 --> 00:58:03,337
Bob had come in to say:
922
00:58:04,753 --> 00:58:08,337
'I think the person I should write about
is Lyndon Johnson.'
923
00:58:08,837 --> 00:58:12,670
'But, ' he said, 'there's a problem.
It's a gigantic story.'
924
00:58:13,337 --> 00:58:16,628
I said, 'But I wanna do it in volumes
925
00:58:16,628 --> 00:58:21,421
because I never wanna cut out anything
that we think should be in it again.'
926
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,628
And he agreed, in my memory, immediately.
927
00:58:25,628 --> 00:58:26,712
So...
928
00:58:28,129 --> 00:58:33,379
we sort of looked at each other
with a wild surmise, and it was done.
929
00:58:33,379 --> 00:58:37,753
And he said, 'But how can I afford it?
This is gonna take me... Who knows?'
930
00:58:37,753 --> 00:58:40,753
We thought three volumes, was the idea.
931
00:58:40,753 --> 00:58:42,421
'And what am I gonna live on?'
932
00:58:42,421 --> 00:58:45,212
And I said,
'You know, that's not your problem.
933
00:58:45,212 --> 00:58:47,421
Lynn and I will work that out.'
934
00:58:56,129 --> 00:58:59,129
When we launched ourselves
into this project,
935
00:59:00,170 --> 00:59:04,254
we had no way of knowing that we would be
at it for the rest of our lives.
936
00:59:08,503 --> 00:59:12,421
People are always asking me why I picked
Robert Moses and Lyndon Johnson
937
00:59:12,421 --> 00:59:13,670
to write about.
938
00:59:13,670 --> 00:59:16,878
From the first time
I thought of writing biographies,
939
00:59:16,878 --> 00:59:19,628
I thought of them
as a means of illuminating
940
00:59:19,628 --> 00:59:22,337
the times of the men I was writing about
941
00:59:22,337 --> 00:59:25,545
and the great forces
that shaped those times,
942
00:59:25,545 --> 00:59:29,004
particularly the force
that is political power.
943
00:59:29,004 --> 00:59:31,878
This administration today
944
00:59:31,878 --> 00:59:37,004
declares unconditional war
on poverty in America.
945
00:59:38,379 --> 00:59:42,170
Every time a youth from a poor family
gets to go to college
946
00:59:42,170 --> 00:59:46,004
because of one of Lyndon Johnson's
Great Society programs,
947
00:59:46,004 --> 00:59:49,004
that's an example of political power.
948
00:59:51,087 --> 00:59:54,878
Every time a Black man or woman
is able to walk into a voting booth
949
00:59:54,878 --> 00:59:58,129
because of Lyndon Johnson's
Voting Rights Act,
950
00:59:58,129 --> 01:00:01,379
that is a more significant example
of political power.
951
01:00:05,753 --> 01:00:09,296
And so, unfortunately,
is the fact of a young man,
952
01:00:09,296 --> 01:00:11,587
tens of thousands of young men,
953
01:00:11,587 --> 01:00:15,920
dying a needless death
in a useless war in Vietnam.
954
01:00:17,004 --> 01:00:20,129
Caro knew just how to get to Johnson,
955
01:00:20,753 --> 01:00:23,670
insofar as another human being could.
956
01:00:23,670 --> 01:00:26,712
What was it about this man
that was special?
957
01:00:26,712 --> 01:00:28,421
Positive and negative.
958
01:00:29,379 --> 01:00:34,795
How can a guy with so much
self-confidence in the Senate,
959
01:00:35,337 --> 01:00:40,421
and the ability to pass
this achingly difficult civil-rights bill,
960
01:00:40,421 --> 01:00:45,712
how could he be so insecure
and so worried about looking weak...
961
01:00:48,045 --> 01:00:52,462
that he thought he had to keep tiptoeing
toward disaster in Vietnam?
962
01:00:54,129 --> 01:00:58,296
Caro tries to figure out a way
to answer questions like that...
963
01:00:59,462 --> 01:01:03,795
in a way that does not dehumanize
the subject he's writing about.
964
01:01:04,879 --> 01:01:05,879
So...
965
01:01:06,712 --> 01:01:09,628
And I think he believes
that's important in democracy.
966
01:01:09,628 --> 01:01:14,879
It's important to see imperfect people
who have great aspirations
967
01:01:15,628 --> 01:01:19,879
and personal ambitions,
which may or may not be base...
968
01:01:22,503 --> 01:01:24,670
but how, if it all works,
969
01:01:24,670 --> 01:01:27,753
you produce better outcomes
for more people
970
01:01:27,753 --> 01:01:32,462
than under any other system
the world has yet devised.
971
01:01:32,462 --> 01:01:34,187
And a lot of people don't agree with that.
972
01:01:34,187 --> 01:01:38,129
Democracy has been on the back foot
for the last few years.
973
01:01:39,421 --> 01:01:42,670
The real importance to me
of Caro's work
974
01:01:42,670 --> 01:01:46,670
is that people will see the stories of
975
01:01:46,670 --> 01:01:52,171
dedicated, dreaming, imperfect people...
976
01:01:54,087 --> 01:01:56,920
who figured out
how to do democracy well enough
977
01:01:56,920 --> 01:02:00,212
to leave people better off
when they quit than when they started.
978
01:02:05,171 --> 01:02:09,753
Doing Lyndon Johnson presented me
with a problem I hadn't had with Moses.
979
01:02:09,753 --> 01:02:13,129
I grew up in New York.
I was a New York City boy.
980
01:02:13,129 --> 01:02:15,421
I knew the world of Robert Moses.
981
01:02:15,421 --> 01:02:18,962
I didn't know the world
in which Lyndon Johnson grew up:
982
01:02:18,962 --> 01:02:21,337
The world of the Texas Hill Country.
983
01:02:30,463 --> 01:02:34,087
The people of Hill Country are
very different from people in New York.
984
01:02:34,087 --> 01:02:37,212
There's a real honorable-ness about them.
985
01:02:40,421 --> 01:02:42,712
And they're not gonna lie.
986
01:02:42,712 --> 01:02:47,045
But they also felt it was wrong
to say anything bad
987
01:02:47,045 --> 01:02:49,920
about a president of the United States.
988
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:56,503
So I felt that what they were telling me
was a lot short of the real stories.
989
01:02:57,795 --> 01:03:01,212
I wasn't understanding their mores,
their values,
990
01:03:01,212 --> 01:03:04,463
that were obviously
so different from mine.
991
01:03:04,463 --> 01:03:07,962
So I said to Ina, 'You know,
I'm not understanding these people,
992
01:03:07,962 --> 01:03:11,171
and therefore I'm not understanding
Lyndon Johnson.
993
01:03:11,171 --> 01:03:15,421
We'll have to move to the Hill Country
and live there for a while.'
994
01:03:15,421 --> 01:03:19,421
Ina said, 'Can't you write
a biography of Napoleon?'
995
01:03:30,879 --> 01:03:34,920
- You see a bunch of houses over there?
- So that's where we're going?
996
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:37,296
- Yes, we are.
- All right, let's go.
997
01:03:38,421 --> 01:03:41,712
- Aren't you glad you came, honey?
- Oh, absolutely.
998
01:03:44,795 --> 01:03:46,503
It's been a long time.
999
01:03:46,503 --> 01:03:51,171
It's been a long... A long time.
1000
01:03:53,421 --> 01:03:56,670
He doesn't go visit
the Hill Country of Texas.
1001
01:03:56,670 --> 01:03:58,254
He goes and moves in.
1002
01:03:59,379 --> 01:04:02,670
He moves in! He goes and lives there.
Who does that?
1003
01:04:03,463 --> 01:04:04,754
Who does that?
1004
01:04:06,628 --> 01:04:10,254
Living in the Hill Country of Texas
for three years
1005
01:04:10,254 --> 01:04:14,754
is not natural territory for nice,
little Jewish boys from New York.
1006
01:04:15,545 --> 01:04:18,171
But going to Texas
was obviously essential.
1007
01:04:19,587 --> 01:04:23,254
This is really the kind of house
that Lyndon Johnson grew up in,
1008
01:04:23,254 --> 01:04:26,670
but it was smaller
and more dilapidated than this.
1009
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:31,754
When I first came here
right at the beginning of doing the books,
1010
01:04:31,754 --> 01:04:35,754
in 1976 or 1977,
1011
01:04:35,754 --> 01:04:38,338
these were women and men
1012
01:04:38,338 --> 01:04:42,920
who were living in lives
of almost incredible
1013
01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:45,837
loneliness and desolation.
1014
01:04:47,004 --> 01:04:48,545
When I was in high school,
1015
01:04:48,545 --> 01:04:52,087
I had decided I was either gonna be
a dancer or a researcher.
1016
01:04:52,087 --> 01:04:54,712
And it was just sort of a miracle
1017
01:04:54,712 --> 01:04:59,545
that Bob asked me
to do a little research for him.
1018
01:04:59,545 --> 01:05:02,046
Did it feel like a big sacrifice
to come here?
1019
01:05:02,046 --> 01:05:04,129
Oh, God, no! It was exciting.
1020
01:05:04,129 --> 01:05:09,129
It was so different from anything
in New York. It is a whole new world.
1021
01:05:10,129 --> 01:05:13,171
We learned something new every day.
1022
01:05:14,379 --> 01:05:16,379
- Hi, Mr. Caro.
- Bob Caro.
1023
01:05:16,379 --> 01:05:18,879
Nice to meet you, sir. I'm Susie Corlette.
1024
01:05:18,879 --> 01:05:20,879
- It's a pleasure to meet you.
- Yes, sir.
1025
01:05:20,879 --> 01:05:23,254
Thank you for making
the trouble to do this.
1026
01:05:23,254 --> 01:05:25,837
Oh, sure, no problem. Anytime. Anytime.
1027
01:05:30,421 --> 01:05:34,087
Whatever the secret was
to Lyndon Johnson's
1028
01:05:34,921 --> 01:05:37,545
very unusual personality,
1029
01:05:38,129 --> 01:05:40,503
it had to go back to that boyhood
1030
01:05:40,503 --> 01:05:44,338
and that terrible relationship
he had had with his father.
1031
01:05:45,503 --> 01:05:48,754
They don't have the dining table
the way it used to be.
1032
01:05:50,670 --> 01:05:56,087
Well, we're in the home
that the Johnson family moved to.
1033
01:05:56,087 --> 01:06:00,046
It's called the boyhood home.
It was a very unhappy house.
1034
01:06:00,046 --> 01:06:04,754
The father's health had been broken
by his failure.
1035
01:06:04,754 --> 01:06:07,171
There was no money in this house.
1036
01:06:07,171 --> 01:06:11,463
There was often no food in the house
because the mother was often sick.
1037
01:06:11,962 --> 01:06:15,087
So his boyhood was unhappy.
1038
01:06:16,795 --> 01:06:20,129
So I wanted to recreate that
to try to understand that.
1039
01:06:20,129 --> 01:06:24,213
Sam Houston Johnson was
Lyndon Johnson's younger brother.
1040
01:06:24,213 --> 01:06:27,338
They were very close, he and Lyndon.
1041
01:06:27,338 --> 01:06:29,087
Sam drank a lot.
1042
01:06:29,837 --> 01:06:33,421
And he was one of these people
who were full of braggadocio
1043
01:06:33,421 --> 01:06:36,545
and bravado and exaggeration.
1044
01:06:36,545 --> 01:06:42,129
And in my case, the exaggeration
often shaded into untruthfulness.
1045
01:06:42,129 --> 01:06:45,379
So I decided, I'm not gonna speak
to him anymore.
1046
01:06:45,379 --> 01:06:47,921
So then, after about a year,
1047
01:06:47,921 --> 01:06:53,046
I had heard during this year that he had
had a terrible operation for cancer
1048
01:06:53,795 --> 01:06:56,504
and that he had stopped drinking.
1049
01:06:56,504 --> 01:07:00,004
One day, I was walking along the street
in Johnson City,
1050
01:07:00,004 --> 01:07:03,379
and there was Sam Houston Johnson
coming towards me.
1051
01:07:04,171 --> 01:07:06,545
We went to have a cup of coffee.
1052
01:07:07,171 --> 01:07:10,129
And the man sitting next to me
at the counter
1053
01:07:10,129 --> 01:07:13,379
was a very different man
than he had been a year before.
1054
01:07:13,379 --> 01:07:17,629
He was very quiet.
I decided to try to talk to him again.
1055
01:07:17,629 --> 01:07:21,213
I thought of a way
to make Sam Houston Johnson
1056
01:07:21,213 --> 01:07:24,004
remember this the best way he could.
1057
01:07:24,670 --> 01:07:29,796
In the dining room,
the Johnsons had a long plank table.
1058
01:07:29,796 --> 01:07:32,587
The father sat in a big chair at one end,
1059
01:07:32,587 --> 01:07:34,504
the mother in a high chair
at the other end.
1060
01:07:35,296 --> 01:07:38,670
Lyndon and his brother sat
on one side of the table,
1061
01:07:38,670 --> 01:07:40,962
and the three sisters sat on the other.
1062
01:07:40,962 --> 01:07:44,129
I got permission
to bring him into this house.
1063
01:07:44,129 --> 01:07:46,171
We were all alone in the house,
1064
01:07:46,171 --> 01:07:52,171
and I asked him to sit down at the place
in the table that he had always had,
1065
01:07:52,171 --> 01:07:55,629
between his father and Lyndon,
when he was a boy.
1066
01:07:56,254 --> 01:07:58,254
And I sat behind him...
1067
01:07:59,004 --> 01:08:02,921
because I wanted him
to be alone with his memories.
1068
01:08:03,837 --> 01:08:07,129
And it was interesting
because we were sitting there
1069
01:08:07,129 --> 01:08:12,712
around dinner hour, so the shadows
coming into the room from the sun
1070
01:08:12,712 --> 01:08:17,629
were the same shadows that would have
come into that room at the dinner time.
1071
01:08:17,629 --> 01:08:18,962
And I said to him:
1072
01:08:19,629 --> 01:08:23,962
'Now, Sam Houston,
tell me about your father and Lyndon,
1073
01:08:24,921 --> 01:08:27,879
and what they would say to each other
at the table.'
1074
01:08:27,879 --> 01:08:30,338
And at first it was very slow going.
1075
01:08:30,921 --> 01:08:37,504
But after a while, as he started
to talk to me, Lizzie, that dropped away.
1076
01:08:38,129 --> 01:08:42,545
And suddenly he was back
in that dinner table, as I had hoped.
1077
01:08:42,545 --> 01:08:48,921
He was yelling, 'Lyndon, you're a failure.
You're always gonna be a failure.
1078
01:08:48,921 --> 01:08:50,796
You're not college material.'
1079
01:08:50,796 --> 01:08:54,921
Lyndon, 'And what are you?
You're a bus inspector!
1080
01:08:54,921 --> 01:08:56,171
That's what you've been!'
1081
01:08:57,213 --> 01:09:00,254
And he went on. And I said to him:
1082
01:09:01,504 --> 01:09:07,254
'Now, Sam Houston, I want you
to tell me those wonderful anecdotes
1083
01:09:08,129 --> 01:09:12,046
that everybody else told me
about Lyndon Johnson growing up
1084
01:09:12,046 --> 01:09:17,213
that you told me, only this time
tell them to me with more details.
1085
01:09:18,046 --> 01:09:19,879
And I'll never forget this.
1086
01:09:20,504 --> 01:09:26,879
There was this long, long pause
which I was determined not to break.
1087
01:09:28,338 --> 01:09:32,463
And he said, finally, 'I can't.'
1088
01:09:33,545 --> 01:09:36,587
And I said, 'Why not?'
1089
01:09:37,587 --> 01:09:41,545
And he said,
'Because they never happened.'
1090
01:09:42,213 --> 01:09:46,504
And then he started to tell me
a whole different story
1091
01:09:46,504 --> 01:09:49,671
of Lyndon Johnson's youth
which was, to me...
1092
01:09:51,171 --> 01:09:53,921
poignant, terrible, in a way,
1093
01:09:53,921 --> 01:09:58,088
but also revealed
how the Lyndon Johnson became
1094
01:09:58,754 --> 01:10:03,004
this unusual person
who became president of the United States.
1095
01:10:05,421 --> 01:10:10,963
When I was young, poverty was so common
that we didn't know it had a name.
1096
01:10:12,004 --> 01:10:15,879
And education was something
that you had to fight for.
1097
01:10:17,463 --> 01:10:22,046
And water was really life itself.
1098
01:10:22,963 --> 01:10:26,338
And now I am the president.
1099
01:10:27,879 --> 01:10:30,338
It is now my opportunity...
1100
01:10:31,380 --> 01:10:34,254
to help every child get an education.
1101
01:10:35,296 --> 01:10:40,421
To help every Negro
and every American citizen...
1102
01:10:41,338 --> 01:10:43,380
have an equal opportunity.
1103
01:10:46,213 --> 01:10:51,629
How do you make the reader feel
how desperate a man is?
1104
01:10:53,213 --> 01:10:58,921
Not just read it, but feel it,
but see it and feel it himself,
1105
01:10:59,629 --> 01:11:02,879
feel this desperation
of Lyndon Johnson himself.
1106
01:11:04,463 --> 01:11:06,754
I'd write on an index card...
1107
01:11:08,129 --> 01:11:10,671
and Scotch-tape
to the lamp in front of me:
1108
01:11:10,671 --> 01:11:13,296
'Is there desperation on this page?'
1109
01:11:15,380 --> 01:11:19,421
And I can't tell you how many days
1110
01:11:19,421 --> 01:11:21,754
that card stays up there.
1111
01:11:40,963 --> 01:11:43,380
When you start reading
the Johnson biography,
1112
01:11:43,380 --> 01:11:48,963
and you get the entire history of...
Not even the Johnson family,
1113
01:11:48,963 --> 01:11:51,837
but sort of the whole history
of the people
1114
01:11:51,837 --> 01:11:54,463
who have been living
in this part of Texas,
1115
01:11:54,463 --> 01:11:56,796
you could say...
Another biographer would say:
1116
01:11:56,796 --> 01:12:00,963
'Oh, you know, Johnson was shaped
by his hardscrabble childhood
1117
01:12:00,963 --> 01:12:03,546
in the Texas Hill Country.'
1118
01:12:03,546 --> 01:12:07,380
But to give you 150 pages in which you...
1119
01:12:07,380 --> 01:12:10,421
When you finally get to Johnson
and his childhood,
1120
01:12:10,421 --> 01:12:13,213
you yourself feel
like you have gone through that.
1121
01:12:17,838 --> 01:12:21,004
With the Johnson books,
we've had some real fights
1122
01:12:21,004 --> 01:12:24,004
about sections
that he's wanted to cut out.
1123
01:12:24,004 --> 01:12:27,380
Like a section about the grass
in the Hill Country.
1124
01:12:27,380 --> 01:12:30,796
He wrote something insulting
in the margin.
1125
01:12:30,796 --> 01:12:34,213
That was a tremendous battle, really.
1126
01:12:34,213 --> 01:12:37,921
Angry. I mean, an angry, angry battle.
1127
01:12:37,921 --> 01:12:42,129
If he feels that I was pressing him
very hard to reduce this material,
1128
01:12:42,129 --> 01:12:46,255
it was clearly not because I didn't think
it was valuable material.
1129
01:12:46,255 --> 01:12:50,504
It's because I probably felt
that it was somewhat out of proportion.
1130
01:12:50,504 --> 01:12:54,587
It was not that I was trying to tear
his bleeding heart out of his chest
1131
01:12:54,587 --> 01:12:55,671
or out of his book.
1132
01:12:56,213 --> 01:12:58,546
But I just wasn't gonna do that.
1133
01:12:58,546 --> 01:13:02,296
- How long would that go on?
- That battle go on?
1134
01:13:06,380 --> 01:13:07,629
It wasn't a day.
1135
01:13:09,296 --> 01:13:13,921
It wasn't one day.
And a lot of angry things were said.
1136
01:13:17,088 --> 01:13:19,296
Sometimes you see,
I'm looking for an adjective.
1137
01:13:19,296 --> 01:13:21,963
I make a whole list,
a whole page full of adjectives.
1138
01:13:21,963 --> 01:13:25,754
You know, there is a mot juste.
1139
01:13:25,754 --> 01:13:28,088
There is a best word.
1140
01:13:29,046 --> 01:13:34,629
And it's my job
to try to find that best word.
1141
01:13:35,712 --> 01:13:38,546
He's a word painter. He paints with words.
1142
01:13:38,546 --> 01:13:44,504
You said that it irritates you,
his use of the word 'looms.'
1143
01:13:44,504 --> 01:13:47,171
Oh, I have nothing against that word.
1144
01:13:47,171 --> 01:13:49,088
I cherish the word 'looms, '
1145
01:13:49,088 --> 01:13:54,088
but not when it's used X number of times
in Y number of pages.
1146
01:13:54,088 --> 01:13:57,088
Because then it looms too frequently.
1147
01:13:58,338 --> 01:14:00,838
Why do you think that word,
he uses so much?
1148
01:14:00,838 --> 01:14:03,504
It's a dramatic word,
and he likes dramatic words,
1149
01:14:03,504 --> 01:14:05,213
and he uses them very well.
1150
01:14:05,213 --> 01:14:08,380
But if he overuses them
or repeats them too much,
1151
01:14:08,380 --> 01:14:10,296
it doesn't read well.
1152
01:14:10,296 --> 01:14:14,879
Bob always wants to make sure
that the reader has really got it.
1153
01:14:16,879 --> 01:14:19,422
And I have, maybe,
more faith in the reader
1154
01:14:19,422 --> 01:14:21,713
because that's what I am, a reader.
1155
01:14:21,713 --> 01:14:23,046
I got it.
1156
01:14:24,171 --> 01:14:27,171
For them, what is important
is what's on the page.
1157
01:14:27,171 --> 01:14:30,629
Words matter. Mood matters.
Paragraphs matter.
1158
01:14:30,629 --> 01:14:32,879
A sense of place matters. Rhythm matters.
1159
01:14:32,879 --> 01:14:36,422
Commas matter. Semicolons matter.
And the fights go on.
1160
01:14:36,963 --> 01:14:39,504
But what the fights are about...
Not fights.
1161
01:14:39,504 --> 01:14:41,380
It's all about what's on the page
1162
01:14:41,380 --> 01:14:44,546
'cause they both want
the best book possible. They both do.
1163
01:14:44,546 --> 01:14:46,110
And they both want it for each other.
1164
01:15:07,338 --> 01:15:10,255
When he left Knopf
to go to The New Yorker,
1165
01:15:10,255 --> 01:15:13,629
the next day,
my phone was ringing all day
1166
01:15:13,629 --> 01:15:18,838
with various heads of publishing houses
wanting to take me to Rao's for dinner.
1167
01:15:18,838 --> 01:15:24,422
And in the midst of all this,
your father called me, and he said:
1168
01:15:24,422 --> 01:15:30,380
'If you stay at Knopf, I will promise you
I will edit your book twice,
1169
01:15:30,380 --> 01:15:34,879
once as a magazine serial
and once as a book.'
1170
01:15:34,879 --> 01:15:38,838
And everybody said to me,
'He'll never be able to do that.
1171
01:15:38,838 --> 01:15:43,713
You know, he may intend to do that,
but the job of The New Yorker,
1172
01:15:43,713 --> 01:15:45,463
it's a weekly magazine,
1173
01:15:45,463 --> 01:15:49,088
and he's simply not gonna
have time to edit it as a book.'
1174
01:15:49,088 --> 01:15:53,463
And my feeling was,
if he says he'll do it, he'll do it.
1175
01:15:59,504 --> 01:16:01,422
I grew up on The New Yorker.
1176
01:16:01,422 --> 01:16:06,213
Like any professional middle-class child
of a family like mine in the '40s,
1177
01:16:06,213 --> 01:16:08,046
The New Yorker was like the Bible.
1178
01:16:09,422 --> 01:16:13,587
The New Yorker arrived every week
as part of the punctuation of our lives.
1179
01:16:16,546 --> 01:16:21,088
To my astonishment,
and yet not total surprise,
1180
01:16:21,921 --> 01:16:24,297
I ended up the editor of The New Yorker.
1181
01:16:25,754 --> 01:16:26,796
A magazine.
1182
01:16:27,754 --> 01:16:32,130
Of course, the material in it changes,
but the process is the same.
1183
01:16:32,796 --> 01:16:35,838
My job was to feed it.
1184
01:16:35,838 --> 01:16:39,963
To say 'yes' to this. 'No' to that.
'Let's try this new writer.'
1185
01:16:42,671 --> 01:16:45,546
When he took over The New Yorker,
there was a great brouhaha,
1186
01:16:45,546 --> 01:16:49,713
and he ended up making The New Yorker
better than it had been in a long time,
1187
01:16:49,713 --> 01:16:55,005
partly by relaxing some of the strictures
that had become ossified,
1188
01:16:55,005 --> 01:16:57,546
the things you could
and could not write about.
1189
01:16:58,422 --> 01:17:00,713
Here's this person who, on the one hand,
1190
01:17:00,713 --> 01:17:03,463
is supposed to represent
sort of high literature,
1191
01:17:03,463 --> 01:17:06,546
and yet loves pop culture
in all of its manifestations,
1192
01:17:06,546 --> 01:17:08,422
and really does.
1193
01:17:09,297 --> 01:17:13,255
He's famously a collector
of all funny kinds of things,
1194
01:17:13,255 --> 01:17:17,546
but I think that makes him a great editor
because he's open to everything.
1195
01:17:17,546 --> 01:17:19,213
He has no snobberies.
1196
01:17:19,213 --> 01:17:22,463
Every subject is interesting,
the deeper you get into it.
1197
01:17:23,255 --> 01:17:25,796
It doesn't have to be on a grand scale.
1198
01:17:25,796 --> 01:17:28,796
In my case,
obsession can take me anywhere.
1199
01:17:29,380 --> 01:17:33,504
For instance, I was in some junk store
somewhere in the Midwest
1200
01:17:33,504 --> 01:17:36,504
and I saw this object made of plastic.
1201
01:17:36,504 --> 01:17:39,921
I didn't have a clue what it could be,
but I liked the look of it.
1202
01:17:39,921 --> 01:17:42,338
So I bought it, probably for $5.
1203
01:17:42,338 --> 01:17:45,963
And then, a year later,
I saw a comparable object,
1204
01:17:45,963 --> 01:17:49,338
and I thought, 'Oh, I have something
like that. I'll buy this one too.'
1205
01:17:49,838 --> 01:17:54,796
And then, when I came upon a third one,
I realized that I loved these things.
1206
01:17:54,796 --> 01:18:00,297
By then, I had figured out that they were
women's pocketbooks made out of plastic.
1207
01:18:00,297 --> 01:18:03,297
And I thought,
this is something I can accumulate
1208
01:18:03,297 --> 01:18:06,921
and reveal to myself and to the world.
1209
01:18:06,921 --> 01:18:12,130
So then, not since Captain Ahab
in search of the white whale,
1210
01:18:12,130 --> 01:18:16,963
like Robert Caro,
although perhaps in a less noble cause,
1211
01:18:16,963 --> 01:18:19,629
I threw myself into learning about these.
1212
01:18:19,629 --> 01:18:23,380
Part of it is completism.
I like completism.
1213
01:18:23,380 --> 01:18:26,464
Special ones that I have bought
for 15 or 20 dollars,
1214
01:18:26,464 --> 01:18:29,172
if they were in perfect condition,
if they are special,
1215
01:18:29,172 --> 01:18:31,671
can sell now for $2000.
1216
01:18:32,671 --> 01:18:37,046
But I didn't think of them as that.
I just thought of them as love objects.
1217
01:18:37,046 --> 01:18:39,213
How do you feel about the handbags?
1218
01:18:40,464 --> 01:18:43,088
I hate the handbags.
1219
01:18:44,005 --> 01:18:45,880
I found the handbags...
1220
01:18:47,629 --> 01:18:49,671
not uninteresting.
1221
01:18:49,671 --> 01:18:52,713
But when they became
hundreds and hundreds of them...
1222
01:18:53,338 --> 01:18:57,754
And some of them actually are poisonous,
as you know, they give off fumes.
1223
01:18:57,754 --> 01:19:00,297
I thought, 'I'm gonna die
from the vinyl fumes
1224
01:19:00,297 --> 01:19:02,005
and the plastic pocketbooks.'
1225
01:19:02,754 --> 01:19:06,213
And telling a psychiatrist,
'Oh, my husband is a collector.'
1226
01:19:06,213 --> 01:19:09,880
He said, 'What does he collect?'
And I thought, never mind.
1227
01:19:25,588 --> 01:19:27,838
- This is sort of nice, isn't it?
- Yeah.
1228
01:19:28,629 --> 01:19:33,588
To be doing it this way,
coming back to the library this way.
1229
01:19:33,588 --> 01:19:34,671
Yeah.
1230
01:19:35,297 --> 01:19:37,130
I want to say something about Ina.
1231
01:19:37,130 --> 01:19:41,671
She's the only person I've ever trusted
to do any research on my books
1232
01:19:41,671 --> 01:19:43,588
and the only person I'll ever trust.
1233
01:19:45,838 --> 01:19:49,130
- So we're going up to the Reading Room.
- Good to see you, Mr. Caro.
1234
01:19:49,130 --> 01:19:51,629
- Nice to see you, Bob.
- Thank you, sir.
1235
01:19:54,130 --> 01:19:56,464
Everything sort of looks the same.
1236
01:19:57,504 --> 01:19:59,088
Things don't change a whole lot.
1237
01:20:02,088 --> 01:20:04,588
We just walked through the Great Hall.
1238
01:20:04,588 --> 01:20:07,963
What did you feel
the first time you saw...?
1239
01:20:12,380 --> 01:20:17,504
'Intimidated' is a word,
when I saw those shelves.
1240
01:20:17,504 --> 01:20:20,838
And then they tell you
how many papers are in there,
1241
01:20:20,838 --> 01:20:22,755
at the time, about 32 million.
1242
01:20:22,755 --> 01:20:25,255
Today, they say they have 45 million.
1243
01:20:28,422 --> 01:20:33,504
So you wonder
how you're ever going to handle it.
1244
01:20:36,088 --> 01:20:39,422
And has that feeling changed
when you look at those stacks today?
1245
01:20:39,422 --> 01:20:43,963
To tell you the truth, I have
a fond feeling when I look at them today,
1246
01:20:43,963 --> 01:20:46,546
because I found so much interesting stuff.
1247
01:20:46,546 --> 01:20:50,047
You know, once you start
going through these papers,
1248
01:20:50,047 --> 01:20:52,297
they're absolutely fascinating.
1249
01:20:52,297 --> 01:20:55,213
I don't think
there's anything I'd rather do
1250
01:20:55,213 --> 01:20:56,880
than sit at one of those desks
1251
01:20:56,880 --> 01:20:59,380
and just go through and find out stuff
1252
01:20:59,380 --> 01:21:02,588
that's not filtered
through a press release,
1253
01:21:02,588 --> 01:21:04,629
or some other books or something.
1254
01:21:05,255 --> 01:21:09,088
I just wish I had several lifetimes
so I could go through all of them.
1255
01:21:10,422 --> 01:21:13,339
Here's a pencil for Ina,
and I'll get your cart.
1256
01:21:13,339 --> 01:21:16,005
- If you want to go ahead and sit down.
- Which desk am I at?
1257
01:21:16,005 --> 01:21:17,339
- This one.
- Okay.
1258
01:21:17,339 --> 01:21:18,713
Go ahead and sit down.
1259
01:21:18,713 --> 01:21:21,339
Sometimes you're going through
these letters and you say:
1260
01:21:21,339 --> 01:21:24,172
'I'm gonna look
at a manageable number of boxes
1261
01:21:24,172 --> 01:21:26,880
on some particular point,
eight or nine boxes.'
1262
01:21:26,880 --> 01:21:30,755
So it's gonna take you a month,
or a couple of months.
1263
01:21:30,755 --> 01:21:35,213
But you're going through one innocuous
piece of paper after another,
1264
01:21:35,921 --> 01:21:38,130
just thinking, am I wasting these weeks?
1265
01:21:38,130 --> 01:21:41,088
And then all of a sudden, there it is,
1266
01:21:41,088 --> 01:21:43,921
the information that you were looking for.
1267
01:21:43,921 --> 01:21:49,047
And it's there in writing.
You see what actually happened.
1268
01:21:49,796 --> 01:21:53,838
So you feel,
'Oh, I am in history now. I'm really...
1269
01:21:53,838 --> 01:21:57,588
This is it. This is day by...
Minute by minute.'
1270
01:22:00,297 --> 01:22:05,671
Today, I came across a telegram
that I originally read,
1271
01:22:05,671 --> 01:22:08,630
I suppose, decades ago, but passed over.
1272
01:22:08,630 --> 01:22:12,546
I didn't know it had a significance.
It has a great significance.
1273
01:22:15,546 --> 01:22:18,047
Are you still surprised
by things you find?
1274
01:22:19,339 --> 01:22:26,088
Nothing that he does, with getting
these bills passed, shocks me anymore
1275
01:22:26,088 --> 01:22:28,880
because I've seen him do
the most shocking things.
1276
01:22:28,880 --> 01:22:33,172
Sometimes you say, 'Oh, that's amazing.
Look what he's doing here.
1277
01:22:33,172 --> 01:22:36,130
I don't know... I never knew
you could do something like this.
1278
01:22:36,130 --> 01:22:38,922
I never heard of anyone
doing something like this.'
1279
01:22:38,922 --> 01:22:41,922
So the answer is,
you're always fascinated.
1280
01:22:44,130 --> 01:22:46,088
When we come here in the morning,
1281
01:22:46,880 --> 01:22:50,422
Ina and I say, you know...
You can't wait to get in there.
1282
01:22:50,422 --> 01:22:53,214
I mean, sometimes they tell you at 4:45,
1283
01:22:53,214 --> 01:22:55,713
you have to close your boxes
and bring them up,
1284
01:22:55,713 --> 01:22:58,339
and you can't bear to leave them,
1285
01:22:58,339 --> 01:23:01,255
and you can't wait
to get in here the next morning.
1286
01:23:01,255 --> 01:23:04,297
So I've been doing this 42 years,
1287
01:23:04,297 --> 01:23:06,546
I still love getting in here
in the morning.
1288
01:23:06,546 --> 01:23:09,464
I mean, the writing is very hard.
1289
01:23:10,172 --> 01:23:16,464
There's no kidding around about it.
Writing, for me, anyway, is hard.
1290
01:23:17,796 --> 01:23:21,963
Research is just great, I have to say.
1291
01:23:26,630 --> 01:23:30,588
'One of the greatest issues invoked
by the life of Lyndon Baines Johnson:
1292
01:23:30,588 --> 01:23:34,922
The relationship between means and ends.
1293
01:23:34,922 --> 01:23:38,255
Many of the ends of Lyndon Johnson's life,
1294
01:23:38,255 --> 01:23:41,464
civil rights in particular, perhaps,
but others, too,
1295
01:23:41,464 --> 01:23:45,630
were noble, heroic advances
in the cause of social justice.
1296
01:23:45,630 --> 01:23:48,297
Many liberal dreams might not be reality,
1297
01:23:48,297 --> 01:23:51,005
even today,
were it not for Lyndon Johnson.
1298
01:23:51,005 --> 01:23:54,546
Those noble ends, however,
would not have been possible
1299
01:23:54,546 --> 01:24:00,380
were it not for the means far from noble
which brought Lyndon Johnson to power.'
1300
01:24:01,546 --> 01:24:05,880
Bob is so accurate and so fact-oriented...
1301
01:24:06,713 --> 01:24:09,963
is also, in my view, a hidden romantic.
1302
01:24:11,130 --> 01:24:13,546
See, what I see is, he started out...
1303
01:24:13,546 --> 01:24:18,214
He knew that he deeply admired
what Johnson had accomplished,
1304
01:24:18,214 --> 01:24:22,546
particularly in the area
of civil rights and helping the poor.
1305
01:24:22,546 --> 01:24:24,505
I think he saw Johnson,
1306
01:24:25,130 --> 01:24:28,630
for all the bad he knew about him,
as a potential hero.
1307
01:24:29,214 --> 01:24:33,588
And I think it was very disillusioning
for him to discover these things.
1308
01:24:33,588 --> 01:24:38,339
This was not a journalist
with an agenda to get his subject.
1309
01:24:39,380 --> 01:24:45,047
If anything, I think his agenda would have
been to celebrate what he accomplished.
1310
01:24:45,047 --> 01:24:50,464
And I think he was horrified,
as we all have been, by his revelations.
1311
01:24:50,464 --> 01:24:54,588
And then, as with all idealists
and romantics,
1312
01:24:54,588 --> 01:24:57,546
you know, he was the more dismayed.
1313
01:24:57,546 --> 01:25:00,546
And I think that explains
a lot about Bob and the...
1314
01:25:01,130 --> 01:25:03,464
And the emotion behind his writing.
1315
01:25:06,172 --> 01:25:11,089
Can you tell me,
what was the most daunting moment
1316
01:25:11,089 --> 01:25:13,713
of research for you?
1317
01:25:14,464 --> 01:25:16,546
The single most daunting thing?
1318
01:25:16,546 --> 01:25:21,755
You know, Lyndon Johnson won
his election to the Senate by 87 votes,
1319
01:25:21,755 --> 01:25:24,922
that were basically cast
the week after the election.
1320
01:25:26,381 --> 01:25:29,130
So when I got up to this portion,
1321
01:25:29,130 --> 01:25:34,797
every other biographer basically had
either said that he didn't steal them,
1322
01:25:34,797 --> 01:25:38,797
or was just in the same order
as everything that happens in Texas.
1323
01:25:39,422 --> 01:25:42,089
Or more often what was said is,
1324
01:25:42,089 --> 01:25:46,297
no one will ever know
whether he really stole the election.
1325
01:25:46,297 --> 01:25:49,630
I must have read that sentence
a dozen times in books.
1326
01:25:50,339 --> 01:25:52,464
And I got up to it and I said:
1327
01:25:52,464 --> 01:25:54,546
'I'm never gonna write a book...
1328
01:25:55,838 --> 01:25:59,297
and say no one will ever know
if he stole it or not,
1329
01:25:59,297 --> 01:26:01,922
if, in fact, you could...
1330
01:26:01,922 --> 01:26:05,755
It is possible
to arrive at a conclusion...
1331
01:26:06,381 --> 01:26:08,546
as to whether he stole it or not.'
1332
01:26:09,546 --> 01:26:13,005
And when I realized
what that was going to entail...
1333
01:26:14,588 --> 01:26:16,838
It was another thing
where you say, 'Oh, boy...
1334
01:26:19,172 --> 01:26:22,297
this is gonna take months and months
1335
01:26:23,047 --> 01:26:27,713
to find the people involved,
to try to get them to talk.'
1336
01:26:27,713 --> 01:26:33,089
When you realize that,
you have this sinking feeling, you know.
1337
01:26:33,089 --> 01:26:36,672
'Oh, boy, I thought I was gonna be done
with this book in four years.
1338
01:26:36,672 --> 01:26:39,172
We're really talking now
about five years.'
1339
01:26:39,172 --> 01:26:40,963
But then I thought:
1340
01:26:40,963 --> 01:26:46,713
'But I'm trying to explain how American
politics worked in the 20th century.'
1341
01:26:47,880 --> 01:26:52,922
Stolen elections are a big part
of American politics.
1342
01:26:52,922 --> 01:26:56,964
They're just a part
that's never been really examined...
1343
01:26:58,214 --> 01:27:01,172
in the depth that I think
it should be examined.
1344
01:27:01,172 --> 01:27:06,005
I said, 'I'll really be adding something
to our understanding
1345
01:27:06,005 --> 01:27:07,672
of how democracy works,
1346
01:27:07,672 --> 01:27:09,214
how politics works,
1347
01:27:09,214 --> 01:27:11,797
how government works
in America in the 20th century,
1348
01:27:11,797 --> 01:27:15,755
if I show people
what a stolen election is.
1349
01:27:15,755 --> 01:27:18,255
Let's see what it really is.'
1350
01:27:18,255 --> 01:27:22,464
Here's a man who was like
30,000 votes behind on Election Day.
1351
01:27:22,464 --> 01:27:25,922
Where did those 30,000 votes come from?
1352
01:27:28,546 --> 01:27:33,172
You drove down
to this area of Texas, the valley,
1353
01:27:33,172 --> 01:27:35,505
which was like another country then.
1354
01:27:35,505 --> 01:27:38,256
You said, this is where
these votes came from.
1355
01:27:39,422 --> 01:27:41,588
And you read the court testimony,
1356
01:27:41,588 --> 01:27:44,047
and there's a man named Luis Salas,
who said...
1357
01:27:44,047 --> 01:27:48,672
He was on the witness stand
and he was being questioned.
1358
01:27:48,672 --> 01:27:51,172
They were about to open Box 13,
1359
01:27:51,172 --> 01:27:54,588
which was this box they found
in the desert a week later
1360
01:27:54,588 --> 01:27:57,047
with the votes in alphabetical order.
1361
01:27:57,755 --> 01:27:59,838
'Found' was in quotation marks.
1362
01:27:59,838 --> 01:28:02,546
And he was on the stand,
1363
01:28:02,546 --> 01:28:05,922
and they were about to open the box,
and he was about to testify,
1364
01:28:05,922 --> 01:28:11,755
when a messenger rushed into the courtroom
with a message saying
1365
01:28:11,755 --> 01:28:14,381
that the United States Supreme Court,
Hugo Black,
1366
01:28:14,381 --> 01:28:16,464
had ordered the trial stop.
1367
01:28:16,964 --> 01:28:20,755
So I was looking for politicians
who had been involved in it,
1368
01:28:20,755 --> 01:28:23,256
and everyone said, 'Oh, Luis Salas.
1369
01:28:24,130 --> 01:28:28,797
Luis Salas. Oh, Luis Salas, he's dead.
Luis Salas, he's dead.'
1370
01:28:28,797 --> 01:28:34,422
And all of a sudden, one woman said to me,
'Luis Salas isn't dead.
1371
01:28:34,422 --> 01:28:37,130
You know, he had to...
He was involved in another...'
1372
01:28:37,130 --> 01:28:40,464
It was a murder investigation, and...
1373
01:28:41,880 --> 01:28:45,505
'He went back to Mexico, but he's alive.'
1374
01:28:45,505 --> 01:28:46,922
It was really hard.
1375
01:28:46,922 --> 01:28:51,880
And I finally found, and it's a 'finally, '
'cause it was a lot of work,
1376
01:28:51,880 --> 01:28:55,005
that he was, in fact,
back in Texas, he was in Houston,
1377
01:28:55,005 --> 01:28:56,630
and he was living in a trailer.
1378
01:28:57,297 --> 01:29:02,797
So I didn't want to give him a chance
to say, no, he wouldn't talk to me.
1379
01:29:02,797 --> 01:29:06,839
So I just flew to Houston
and went to this trailer and knocked...
1380
01:29:06,839 --> 01:29:09,880
Now, Luis Salas was the enforcer
1381
01:29:09,880 --> 01:29:13,256
for this boss of the counties
along the border.
1382
01:29:14,005 --> 01:29:16,964
He was a huge, burly guy.
1383
01:29:16,964 --> 01:29:19,422
So I knock on the door,
and the door is opened,
1384
01:29:19,422 --> 01:29:22,630
and I'm sort of expecting
this guy in my book,
1385
01:29:22,630 --> 01:29:26,880
and this wizened, very frail,
1386
01:29:27,381 --> 01:29:31,339
very old little man opens the door.
1387
01:29:31,922 --> 01:29:36,297
And I said to him,
'Mr. Salas, my name is Bob Caro
1388
01:29:36,880 --> 01:29:39,131
and I'm writing a book
about Lyndon Johnson.'
1389
01:29:39,131 --> 01:29:41,131
And without me saying anything else,
1390
01:29:41,131 --> 01:29:43,464
while we were still in the doorway,
he said:
1391
01:29:44,381 --> 01:29:47,381
'Then you want to know about Box 13.'
1392
01:29:48,214 --> 01:29:53,630
And he said,
'You know, I have written it all down.'
1393
01:29:54,797 --> 01:30:00,256
And he brought out a manuscript,
the title of which is Box 13,
1394
01:30:00,256 --> 01:30:04,713
which told the whole story of it,
what he had done.
1395
01:30:05,672 --> 01:30:08,464
So I said, 'Can I copy this?'
1396
01:30:08,464 --> 01:30:11,588
And he said,
'There's a Xerox machine in the 7-Eleven.'
1397
01:30:12,339 --> 01:30:17,505
So you see, this is a document
that really no one had ever seen before.
1398
01:30:17,505 --> 01:30:21,131
And once you read it
and you tied it in with the testimony
1399
01:30:21,131 --> 01:30:22,880
that had been given under oath,
1400
01:30:22,880 --> 01:30:26,172
there was no question about
what had happened in this election,
1401
01:30:26,172 --> 01:30:30,339
that it was stolen,
and precisely how it was stolen.
1402
01:30:37,755 --> 01:30:40,964
That book was an absolute revelation.
1403
01:30:41,880 --> 01:30:46,630
That's the fabulous aspect
of that book. Who knew?
1404
01:30:55,922 --> 01:30:58,839
I wanted to say hello and thank you,
and to shake your hand.
1405
01:30:58,839 --> 01:31:00,547
- Okay.
- 'Cause it was wonderful.
1406
01:31:00,547 --> 01:31:02,797
You made my day. That's great.
1407
01:31:03,505 --> 01:31:05,714
- I hope you like it.
- I'm sure I'll love it.
1408
01:31:05,714 --> 01:31:06,630
Hi, Mr. Caro.
1409
01:31:06,630 --> 01:31:10,922
When I'm writing a book,
on some very deep level,
1410
01:31:10,922 --> 01:31:16,297
Bob Gottlieb and I are thinking
about the same book.
1411
01:31:16,297 --> 01:31:21,256
So that if I say to him
during the course of the seven years,
1412
01:31:21,256 --> 01:31:24,547
which is what
all of my books take, at least...
1413
01:31:25,714 --> 01:31:30,755
If I say to him, 'I'm gonna do
a whole book on the stolen election, Bob,
1414
01:31:30,755 --> 01:31:34,256
that was just supposed to be one chapter
when we thought about it'...
1415
01:31:37,339 --> 01:31:40,839
he seldom even asks me why.
1416
01:31:40,839 --> 01:31:42,588
He just sort of agrees.
1417
01:31:42,588 --> 01:31:46,505
It's a priceless thing
for a writer to have something like that.
1418
01:31:48,547 --> 01:31:51,256
Then, of course,
three volumes became four volumes,
1419
01:31:51,256 --> 01:31:53,964
and four volumes is becoming five volumes.
1420
01:31:53,964 --> 01:31:57,672
And that's the end of it 'cause neither
of us is gonna be around beyond that,
1421
01:31:57,672 --> 01:31:59,172
if we get to that.
1422
01:32:00,089 --> 01:32:04,381
What do you think it means to write
a book over the course of 50 years?
1423
01:32:05,297 --> 01:32:07,505
Well, it isn't a book. It's five books.
1424
01:32:07,505 --> 01:32:09,797
The subject is always Lyndon B. Johnson.
1425
01:32:09,797 --> 01:32:13,297
But the subject of each book is different.
1426
01:32:13,297 --> 01:32:17,131
The Master of the Senate is not
just about the extraordinary account
1427
01:32:17,131 --> 01:32:20,256
of how Johnson ruled it with an iron rod
1428
01:32:20,256 --> 01:32:22,714
and got things done
that no one else could ever have done
1429
01:32:22,714 --> 01:32:24,464
and has been able to do since.
1430
01:32:24,464 --> 01:32:28,298
By hook, by crook.
It was probably more crook than hook.
1431
01:32:29,505 --> 01:32:32,922
It's also the story
of how the Senate did work,
1432
01:32:32,922 --> 01:32:35,922
does work, and can or cannot work.
1433
01:32:35,922 --> 01:32:41,298
So we came to understand,
really, how the government works.
1434
01:32:41,298 --> 01:32:46,131
So it's completely fascinating
as a demonstration of America,
1435
01:32:46,131 --> 01:32:47,588
as well as a personal story.
1436
01:32:47,588 --> 01:32:49,298
And that's true of each of his books.
1437
01:32:49,298 --> 01:32:52,298
As with the last volume
to have been published,
1438
01:32:52,298 --> 01:32:55,839
about the assassination
and his becoming president.
1439
01:32:55,839 --> 01:32:59,922
But it's also about how the transition
of power takes place in America.
1440
01:32:59,922 --> 01:33:02,089
How does that work? And you see it.
1441
01:33:08,964 --> 01:33:11,880
So you see this,
the outline for this book...
1442
01:33:13,797 --> 01:33:15,339
was this.
1443
01:33:15,339 --> 01:33:21,006
You can see slightly that
there was a line of pages up above it.
1444
01:33:21,006 --> 01:33:24,047
There were three rows,
but I finished this.
1445
01:33:24,047 --> 01:33:27,755
So I guess you could say I'm a third,
that's about where I am.
1446
01:33:29,339 --> 01:33:30,630
I took it down...
1447
01:33:32,880 --> 01:33:35,121
- You don't need to know the reason.
- I do want to know.
1448
01:33:35,121 --> 01:33:36,172
Well, you...
1449
01:33:37,839 --> 01:33:40,006
Anyway, that's the part that's done.
1450
01:33:47,256 --> 01:33:48,256
So confession.
1451
01:33:48,256 --> 01:33:51,672
I haven't finished the last one
because I don't want there to be a world
1452
01:33:51,672 --> 01:33:54,006
where I don't have
a little more Bob Caro to read.
1453
01:33:56,922 --> 01:33:59,630
I want Volume 5.
1454
01:33:59,630 --> 01:34:02,630
I want it. I need it.
Please. Get back to work.
1455
01:34:03,339 --> 01:34:06,131
I'm so happy
he's working on this next book.
1456
01:34:06,131 --> 01:34:09,464
And when he's done,
I'll be there first in line
1457
01:34:10,089 --> 01:34:11,630
'cause I will be first in line.
1458
01:34:12,672 --> 01:34:16,339
What's important is that
Robert Caro finish the work...
1459
01:34:16,339 --> 01:34:20,672
Finish his life's work,
while we still have him.
1460
01:34:24,423 --> 01:34:27,423
Sir, I've been a fan of yours
since The Power Broker,
1461
01:34:27,423 --> 01:34:29,173
and I've read all the Johnson books,
1462
01:34:29,173 --> 01:34:32,964
and I'm very anxious to know
when you think you'll finish...
1463
01:34:34,089 --> 01:34:35,547
the next volume.
1464
01:34:35,547 --> 01:34:38,922
And I hope that there's
ten more volumes after that one.
1465
01:34:39,922 --> 01:34:42,173
You're the second person
to ask me that today.
1466
01:34:42,173 --> 01:34:44,089
The first one was my publisher.
1467
01:34:46,839 --> 01:34:50,339
I try to blank out the number of years
each of the books takes.
1468
01:34:50,339 --> 01:34:53,464
It's not to my advantage
to think about that.
1469
01:34:54,755 --> 01:34:59,797
Caro is working as hard as he can work,
and he's working flat-out.
1470
01:34:59,797 --> 01:35:01,464
No sense in giving him...
1471
01:35:01,464 --> 01:35:04,881
We would never give him
any more pressure than he already has.
1472
01:35:04,881 --> 01:35:06,797
I remember very vividly
1473
01:35:08,131 --> 01:35:10,964
an editor coming down the hall
and asking me,
1474
01:35:10,964 --> 01:35:13,298
while I was doing
one of the early Johnson books:
1475
01:35:13,298 --> 01:35:15,714
'When are you gonna deliver?' You know?
1476
01:35:15,714 --> 01:35:20,214
And I remember Bob saying,
'Don't ever ask him that.' You know?
1477
01:35:20,214 --> 01:35:24,256
That's a sentence that meant a lot to me.
1478
01:35:26,006 --> 01:35:29,131
You know, with Bob,
while he's writing a book,
1479
01:35:29,131 --> 01:35:31,672
and I'm not merely waiting for it,
1480
01:35:31,672 --> 01:35:35,630
but busy about my own life and about
other things that I'm working on,
1481
01:35:35,630 --> 01:35:40,381
still, he's always there in the back
of my mind, because there he is.
1482
01:35:40,381 --> 01:35:41,547
And there it is.
1483
01:35:41,547 --> 01:35:45,173
And I'm as eager to read
the fifth volume as everybody else is.
1484
01:35:45,173 --> 01:35:50,797
You know, by now I have an almost
lifelong curiosity about Lyndon Johnson,
1485
01:35:51,423 --> 01:35:54,339
and what happened to him
and to us because of him.
1486
01:35:54,339 --> 01:35:56,006
So I'm waiting eagerly too,
1487
01:35:56,006 --> 01:36:00,630
but waiting eagerly is not
a very proactive line of work.
1488
01:36:05,089 --> 01:36:07,756
And how are you spending
your time these days?
1489
01:36:08,672 --> 01:36:11,964
I'm editing. I'm now working
on a book by Bill Gates.
1490
01:36:11,964 --> 01:36:15,047
His first book in 20-odd years,
about the environment.
1491
01:36:15,839 --> 01:36:17,964
I read, read, read, read, read.
1492
01:36:18,505 --> 01:36:21,214
A lot of my reading has to do
with what I'm writing,
1493
01:36:21,214 --> 01:36:23,089
and that is what I've been doing a lot of.
1494
01:36:28,214 --> 01:36:29,547
You know, I don't like writing.
1495
01:36:29,547 --> 01:36:33,505
I've always disliked it and resisted it
and never thought I would do it.
1496
01:36:34,214 --> 01:36:39,298
And yet, I have turned out endless pieces
1497
01:36:39,298 --> 01:36:41,672
for the New York Review of Books
and The New Yorker,
1498
01:36:41,672 --> 01:36:45,881
a dance column for 20 years
for The New York Observer.
1499
01:36:45,881 --> 01:36:49,547
Long pieces
for The New York Times Book Review.
1500
01:36:50,839 --> 01:36:53,006
And you help run the Miami City Ballet.
1501
01:36:53,839 --> 01:36:56,714
Yes. My whole life,
I've been a word person.
1502
01:36:56,714 --> 01:36:58,256
Everything for me is words.
1503
01:37:00,173 --> 01:37:06,339
And dance liberated my feelings
from the bondage of the tyranny of words.
1504
01:37:09,089 --> 01:37:13,089
I've been involved
with Miami City Ballet for 19 or 20 years.
1505
01:37:14,423 --> 01:37:16,881
I do everything I can to be helpful.
1506
01:37:16,881 --> 01:37:19,714
Working on programing with Lourdes Lopez.
1507
01:37:21,756 --> 01:37:23,714
It's a very emotional business.
1508
01:37:23,714 --> 01:37:26,839
You are putting out fires all the time.
1509
01:37:26,839 --> 01:37:29,006
Now, publishing is a lot like that.
1510
01:37:30,630 --> 01:37:34,589
So it was a natural dynamic for me.
1511
01:37:35,340 --> 01:37:36,881
And, of course, I love doing it.
1512
01:37:37,881 --> 01:37:39,756
Because making things better...
1513
01:37:41,340 --> 01:37:44,006
saving things, is the editorial impulse.
1514
01:37:59,797 --> 01:38:02,131
I'm now writing a book,
and he bailed on me,
1515
01:38:02,131 --> 01:38:04,839
on my life after the White House.
1516
01:38:04,839 --> 01:38:08,381
He called me, he said, 'I'm 89 years old.
I just... I can't do this anymore.
1517
01:38:08,381 --> 01:38:10,964
You're not gonna write the book
I think you ought to write.'
1518
01:38:10,964 --> 01:38:14,298
And it's the first thing
I've ever done without him.
1519
01:38:15,131 --> 01:38:17,006
I feel like a little lost boy.
1520
01:38:26,797 --> 01:38:30,589
- Oh, gosh. Can I hug you?
- Sure. It's nice.
1521
01:38:30,589 --> 01:38:31,672
So good to see you.
1522
01:38:31,672 --> 01:38:35,256
Will you show me the spot over
the refrigerator where you put the...?
1523
01:38:35,256 --> 01:38:37,505
When we were in your office, you said...
1524
01:38:37,505 --> 01:38:39,756
- Yes. Every night...
- Yes.
1525
01:38:40,381 --> 01:38:42,547
Whatever I've typed that day...
1526
01:38:45,173 --> 01:38:47,881
So you can stand... They're back here.
1527
01:38:47,881 --> 01:38:52,089
I just shove it in there.
1528
01:38:52,089 --> 01:38:55,173
It goes back about six feet, actually.
1529
01:38:55,173 --> 01:38:59,089
And it's all filled
with the carbons of everything
1530
01:38:59,089 --> 01:39:01,631
I've written
since we moved to this apartment.
1531
01:39:01,631 --> 01:39:05,214
- Everything you've written?
- Yes, there's a carbon up there.
1532
01:39:05,214 --> 01:39:07,256
And how do you fit it all in?
1533
01:39:07,256 --> 01:39:10,589
Well, as you can see,
1534
01:39:10,589 --> 01:39:14,048
that's shortly gonna become
a real, real problem.
1535
01:39:14,048 --> 01:39:19,173
But right now, every so often,
I get up on a ladder and push,
1536
01:39:19,173 --> 01:39:21,964
and there's always some room behind.
1537
01:39:21,964 --> 01:39:27,215
But if I'm writing,
like that's three or four pages a day.
1538
01:39:27,215 --> 01:39:28,923
Each little thing there.
1539
01:39:30,215 --> 01:39:33,423
- That's it.
- That's incredible. That's incredible.
1540
01:39:36,589 --> 01:39:39,672
Does researching power like this
1541
01:39:39,672 --> 01:39:43,340
make you more or less hopeful
for our country?
1542
01:39:46,797 --> 01:39:47,839
Good question.
1543
01:39:48,505 --> 01:39:52,048
Well, definitely more hopeful
1544
01:39:52,048 --> 01:39:55,756
because you see it can be done.
1545
01:39:57,923 --> 01:40:00,006
Right now I'm working on a section:
1546
01:40:00,006 --> 01:40:04,131
'What was it like
to be old and sick in America
1547
01:40:04,131 --> 01:40:07,340
before Medicare and Medicaid?'
1548
01:40:07,340 --> 01:40:10,631
And you have to put yourself into that,
and you say,
1549
01:40:10,631 --> 01:40:13,131
what was it like to be getting old
1550
01:40:13,131 --> 01:40:16,089
and know you're gonna be sick
and not have any money?
1551
01:40:17,714 --> 01:40:20,672
Suddenly, there comes across
a political genius.
1552
01:40:20,672 --> 01:40:22,423
There's no other word for it.
1553
01:40:22,423 --> 01:40:25,672
A man who can take this legislation
and pass it,
1554
01:40:25,672 --> 01:40:29,173
and change and transform
people's lives for the better.
1555
01:40:29,173 --> 01:40:34,256
So you feel, yes, this can happen.
It will happen.
1556
01:40:35,006 --> 01:40:37,048
That great saying, you know:
1557
01:40:37,048 --> 01:40:40,423
'The moral arc of the universe is long,
1558
01:40:40,423 --> 01:40:42,881
but it bends towards justice.'
1559
01:40:42,881 --> 01:40:48,340
Well, I think it does bend towards...
It does bend towards justice.
1560
01:40:49,839 --> 01:40:53,506
At the same time, because of Vietnam,
1561
01:40:53,506 --> 01:40:56,798
you have this horrible feeling right now
1562
01:40:56,798 --> 01:40:59,298
because the bottom line
of what you're reading
1563
01:40:59,298 --> 01:41:01,340
about how they're making the decisions
1564
01:41:01,340 --> 01:41:06,672
to send all these troops to Vietnam,
almost 600,000 men.
1565
01:41:07,465 --> 01:41:09,839
All these horrible casualties.
1566
01:41:11,256 --> 01:41:14,964
The overall feeling you have is,
look what government can do,
1567
01:41:14,964 --> 01:41:19,881
the power of government,
both for good, and you could say for ill.
1568
01:41:20,589 --> 01:41:24,298
I don't know if you're hopeful
or in some ways more worried.
1569
01:41:24,798 --> 01:41:30,506
You think of wars and the horror of wars,
you know, 'Let loose the dogs of war.'
1570
01:41:30,506 --> 01:41:34,756
How easy it is
for a great power to let that loose.
1571
01:41:35,340 --> 01:41:39,756
So you're more in fear...
Not in fear or in hope...
1572
01:41:40,881 --> 01:41:45,381
but in awe of what government can do.
1573
01:41:52,923 --> 01:41:55,298
It's an amazing thing
that he set out to do.
1574
01:41:55,298 --> 01:41:58,340
And I don't think writing gets easier.
1575
01:41:59,423 --> 01:42:03,215
It just doesn't. It's a daunting task.
1576
01:42:03,215 --> 01:42:05,256
And he has real courage.
1577
01:42:05,256 --> 01:42:10,298
But he also needs
to have sitzfleisch to finish.
1578
01:42:10,298 --> 01:42:14,881
It's a rough, rough, lonely project.
1579
01:42:16,006 --> 01:42:17,506
But the world is better for it.
1580
01:42:22,256 --> 01:42:24,839
Whenever Bob Gottlieb is in the office,
1581
01:42:24,839 --> 01:42:29,215
there's a very clear shift
in the electrical current at Knopf.
1582
01:42:30,298 --> 01:42:31,506
And that's just Bob.
1583
01:42:31,506 --> 01:42:34,756
So Bob and Robert Caro together,
1584
01:42:34,756 --> 01:42:40,090
sitting in a room,
hunched over a stack of pages,
1585
01:42:40,756 --> 01:42:44,090
you could feel this thrumming electricity.
1586
01:42:44,090 --> 01:42:45,881
Their heads were very close together.
1587
01:42:45,881 --> 01:42:49,881
Their voices were rising
and falling with some intensity.
1588
01:42:49,881 --> 01:42:53,131
You felt like you were kind of
watching an act
1589
01:42:53,131 --> 01:42:56,547
of literary history as it unfolded.
1590
01:42:57,964 --> 01:43:00,256
I don't think
that could ever happen again.
1591
01:43:00,256 --> 01:43:01,756
It was a particular...
1592
01:43:01,756 --> 01:43:07,506
I mean, publishing is so changed
from when this contract first began,
1593
01:43:08,340 --> 01:43:11,589
and the contract has been
renegotiated so many times.
1594
01:43:11,589 --> 01:43:16,547
Publishing suffers from some of the same
problems that other businesses do.
1595
01:43:16,547 --> 01:43:18,256
Short-term profits.
1596
01:43:18,256 --> 01:43:24,382
Are they really going to make
a kind of commitment that this took?
1597
01:43:26,131 --> 01:43:28,631
Will they wait,
and will they support it financially?
1598
01:43:28,631 --> 01:43:32,714
I doubt that it could ever happen again.
1599
01:43:33,382 --> 01:43:34,798
Do it the hard way
1600
01:43:34,798 --> 01:43:36,965
And it's easy sailing
1601
01:43:36,965 --> 01:43:40,547
Do it the hard way
And you're bound to please
1602
01:43:40,547 --> 01:43:41,756
That's Rodgers and Hart.
1603
01:43:42,673 --> 01:43:44,215
Only the soft way
1604
01:43:44,215 --> 01:43:45,131
Is that true?
1605
01:43:45,131 --> 01:43:46,631
Has a chance of failing
1606
01:43:46,631 --> 01:43:47,923
How do you know that?
1607
01:43:47,923 --> 01:43:50,839
Chet Baker.
Because when I went to school in Paris,
1608
01:43:50,839 --> 01:43:55,423
- every week, you sent me a tape...
- Right.
1609
01:43:56,048 --> 01:43:56,881
Of jazz.
1610
01:43:56,881 --> 01:43:59,006
- I was a good daddy.
- You were.
1611
01:44:06,298 --> 01:44:09,131
So, what is it like to be 89?
1612
01:44:09,131 --> 01:44:12,547
I don't feel bad about being old.
1613
01:44:13,257 --> 01:44:15,298
I feel bad because being old means
1614
01:44:15,298 --> 01:44:18,881
you're heading faster and faster
toward not being at all.
1615
01:44:18,881 --> 01:44:22,839
That's the problem.
But it's not the condition of being old.
1616
01:44:26,340 --> 01:44:31,839
Bob Caro has a different problem,
which he has this very, very important,
1617
01:44:31,839 --> 01:44:35,965
crucial project that needs to be finished.
1618
01:44:37,048 --> 01:44:43,423
So, of course,
it's such an amazing accomplishment.
1619
01:44:43,423 --> 01:44:46,881
I would love to be able
to hang up my pencil
1620
01:44:46,881 --> 01:44:51,173
on the last page of the last volume
of his Lyndon Johnson.
1621
01:44:52,673 --> 01:44:54,839
But that's, again, in the lap of the gods.
1622
01:44:55,756 --> 01:44:58,548
You're really asking me,
do you think I'm gonna die?
1623
01:44:58,548 --> 01:45:00,131
When you think I'm gonna die.
1624
01:45:00,131 --> 01:45:03,340
So I prefer not to answer that.
You'll have to...
1625
01:45:05,423 --> 01:45:08,548
I don't think it does me any good
to think about that.
1626
01:45:08,548 --> 01:45:11,714
I don't want to rush it, you see?
It would be easy to rush it.
1627
01:45:11,714 --> 01:45:15,589
You get to sections and you say,
'Well, if I leave this out of the book,
1628
01:45:15,589 --> 01:45:20,340
no one will know it's not there
because no one's written about it before.'
1629
01:45:20,340 --> 01:45:23,506
So now you say,
'I could finish this book faster,
1630
01:45:23,506 --> 01:45:25,631
and I could write each section faster.
1631
01:45:25,631 --> 01:45:29,298
I don't have to rewrite them
as many times as I do.'
1632
01:45:30,840 --> 01:45:35,506
But I wanna write them as many times
as I do if I want the books to endure.
1633
01:45:38,840 --> 01:45:43,382
Finally, in our day of these technologies,
1634
01:45:43,382 --> 01:45:45,631
books aren't lost.
1635
01:45:45,631 --> 01:45:48,756
So that you can plant a seed
1636
01:45:48,756 --> 01:45:51,090
by either writing a book
or editing a book,
1637
01:45:51,090 --> 01:45:57,881
and it can grow and blossom
and fade and die.
1638
01:45:57,881 --> 01:46:02,006
But it isn't dead because I am constantly
coming upon books
1639
01:46:02,006 --> 01:46:05,506
written 30 or 60 or 150 years ago,
1640
01:46:06,173 --> 01:46:07,881
and they are real for me.
1641
01:46:07,881 --> 01:46:10,714
So they still have a life
after they're dead.
1642
01:46:16,506 --> 01:46:20,798
You said working on this film has
changed your relationship with my father?
1643
01:46:21,589 --> 01:46:22,589
Yeah.
1644
01:46:23,965 --> 01:46:28,090
Our relationship is friendlier
than it's ever been.
1645
01:46:28,090 --> 01:46:32,173
Of course, that might be
because I haven't handed in another book.
1646
01:46:32,173 --> 01:46:37,673
You know, the work of literature that
really means the most to me is King Lear.
1647
01:46:37,673 --> 01:46:42,798
So I often go to that for reference
to what I'm thinking, feeling.
1648
01:46:42,798 --> 01:46:46,382
You know, I think at this point,
my role with Bob
1649
01:46:46,382 --> 01:46:52,090
is what Cordelia says
about her role with King Lear.
1650
01:46:52,090 --> 01:46:54,965
You know, it's to 'love and be silent.'
1651
01:46:58,631 --> 01:47:00,298
Now, that's a good ending.
1652
01:47:02,756 --> 01:47:04,756
- It's great.
- 'Cause I'm editing.
1653
01:47:06,257 --> 01:47:07,714
'Cause that's what I do.
1654
01:47:08,340 --> 01:47:10,881
What's the time now? Okay, it's 11:25.
1655
01:47:12,923 --> 01:47:15,382
My father was right
that this is a good ending.
1656
01:47:15,382 --> 01:47:17,965
Or at least
I wasn't gonna fight him on it.
1657
01:47:19,090 --> 01:47:21,589
The film has been five years
in the making.
1658
01:47:24,506 --> 01:47:26,923
Volume 5 is not finished,
1659
01:47:26,923 --> 01:47:30,756
but the two Bobs finally agreed
to let me into the editing room.
1660
01:47:33,465 --> 01:47:34,923
With some restrictions.
1661
01:47:34,923 --> 01:47:37,382
Do I look like I'm girding for battle?
1662
01:47:44,715 --> 01:47:46,006
Hi, Bob.
1663
01:47:47,465 --> 01:47:48,465
Oh, sorry.
1664
01:47:48,465 --> 01:47:50,090
Boom! Is that a boom?
1665
01:47:52,881 --> 01:47:53,881
Nice to see you.
1666
01:47:55,006 --> 01:47:56,798
- How are you feeling?
- Very well.
1667
01:47:56,798 --> 01:48:00,840
Let me go find a pencil.
And maybe some coffee.
1668
01:48:00,840 --> 01:48:04,798
- So we are both looking for a pencil.
- Looking for a pencil.
1669
01:48:04,798 --> 01:48:07,673
- We're looking for a pencil.
- Hi. You have a pencil?
1670
01:48:09,424 --> 01:48:10,798
I do not.
1671
01:48:12,340 --> 01:48:15,340
I love that. I don't. Can I help...?
1672
01:48:15,340 --> 01:48:18,965
- A pen? A Sharpie? Okay.
- No, we have all those things.
1673
01:48:18,965 --> 01:48:20,840
It's a pencil. We'll find one.
1674
01:48:21,631 --> 01:48:23,215
Maybe this way is better.
1675
01:48:27,424 --> 01:48:29,923
Who has a pencil? We need a pencil.
1676
01:48:29,923 --> 01:48:31,923
- You know what we can do? We can walk...
- Yes.
1677
01:48:32,631 --> 01:48:35,965
And if you need an eraser,
this one's better than the other.
1678
01:48:35,965 --> 01:48:38,424
- An eraser. And an eraser.
- Yeah.
1679
01:48:38,424 --> 01:48:41,881
It's a mechanical pencil. Is that okay?
No? You need a regular pencil?
1680
01:48:41,881 --> 01:48:43,548
- A yellow pencil.
- Here.
1681
01:48:43,548 --> 01:48:46,631
All right, so we're getting
a yellow pencil and...
1682
01:48:46,631 --> 01:48:51,424
- I have to sharpen it real quick.
- I can sharpen it. I can sharpen it.
1683
01:48:51,424 --> 01:48:55,548
Okay, as long as it works.
Not sure the last time someone used it.
1684
01:48:55,548 --> 01:48:57,465
That's one of your talents.
1685
01:49:05,257 --> 01:49:07,965
Okay. We're ready to go.
1686
01:49:11,965 --> 01:49:14,923
Bob, can you tell us
why you feel it's important
1687
01:49:14,923 --> 01:49:17,465
to have no sound in this session?
1688
01:49:17,465 --> 01:49:19,840
Why no sound in the film?
1689
01:49:21,257 --> 01:49:23,589
It's sort of a private thing, you know?
1690
01:49:24,756 --> 01:49:27,007
So... Okay, we'll turn off the microphones.
139255
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