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1
00:00:07,517 --> 00:00:12,172
Today, Michael and Natalia
get back together
to have a chat.
2
00:00:12,275 --> 00:00:13,931
This is round two.
3
00:00:15,758 --> 00:00:17,620
Michael's lawyer,
Terrance Kinnard,
4
00:00:17,724 --> 00:00:22,448
and Natalia's father,
Antwon Mans, cannot be there.
5
00:00:22,551 --> 00:00:25,620
So, the two who were arguing
the month earlier,
6
00:00:25,724 --> 00:00:29,655
they're gone, and now it is
just Natalia and Michael.
7
00:00:32,551 --> 00:00:35,344
[Natalia] I do want
to hear Michael out,
8
00:00:35,448 --> 00:00:38,413
but, like,
I'm kind of expecting
the unexpected here.
9
00:00:40,241 --> 00:00:42,793
I think I'm just
really nervous
about what he says
10
00:00:42,896 --> 00:00:44,310
and how it will affect me.
11
00:00:45,896 --> 00:00:47,103
I have a lot of questions
12
00:00:47,206 --> 00:00:49,827
and all I'm asking is
that just... just answer them.
13
00:00:51,448 --> 00:00:52,827
So, I'm just...
14
00:00:54,724 --> 00:00:58,655
[exhales] I'm... legit,
like, nervous right now.
15
00:00:59,172 --> 00:01:00,793
[sniffs and groans]
16
00:01:02,517 --> 00:01:05,931
[Beth] Michael really wants
some resolution here.
17
00:01:06,034 --> 00:01:08,758
He wants some peace of mind.
He needs to put this to rest.
18
00:01:09,655 --> 00:01:11,034
[Michael] Meeting Natalia,
19
00:01:11,137 --> 00:01:12,310
I'm looking for all
these different pieces
20
00:01:12,413 --> 00:01:15,068
of... of warning signs,
21
00:01:15,172 --> 00:01:17,000
like an early
warning system, right?
22
00:01:17,103 --> 00:01:18,482
You know,
for people like my mother
23
00:01:18,586 --> 00:01:20,033
who grew up
in the '50s and '60s
24
00:01:20,137 --> 00:01:24,551
and they had to deal
with things
like nuclear bomb sirens,
25
00:01:24,655 --> 00:01:28,896
they're waiting for any sound
to tell you
something's falling.
26
00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:30,586
If I'm talking to Natalia,
27
00:01:30,689 --> 00:01:33,241
and I hear... [whistles
to mimic something falling]
28
00:01:33,827 --> 00:01:34,862
Is that the wind?
29
00:01:34,965 --> 00:01:36,655
[whistles to mimic
something falling]
30
00:01:36,758 --> 00:01:38,586
Ha, it's not falling.
31
00:01:38,689 --> 00:01:42,723
I am on edge
and on nerve.
32
00:01:42,827 --> 00:01:45,965
[Beth] Then we have Natalia,
who really needs some answers.
33
00:01:46,068 --> 00:01:48,378
She was very unfulfilled
after the trial
34
00:01:48,482 --> 00:01:50,965
and she's gonna ask
some hard questions of Michael
35
00:01:51,068 --> 00:01:53,517
and she needs to know
36
00:01:53,620 --> 00:01:56,310
why she was treated
the way she was.
37
00:01:56,413 --> 00:01:59,241
[Natalia]
There's a lot of stuff
that I want to ask Michael.
38
00:01:59,344 --> 00:02:01,241
Why did they adopt me
in the first place?
39
00:02:01,344 --> 00:02:02,793
What made them
change their mind?
40
00:02:07,758 --> 00:02:11,931
Why didn't he step in
when I was fighting
with Kristine?
41
00:02:12,034 --> 00:02:14,241
Like, why didn't Michael
defend me?
42
00:02:14,344 --> 00:02:17,551
Why didn't Michael even
just take me out of there?
43
00:02:17,655 --> 00:02:20,724
[Beth] Of course
Natalia wants answers, but...
44
00:02:20,827 --> 00:02:23,586
she's running a risk here,
because Michael has triggers.
45
00:02:23,689 --> 00:02:26,931
I tried, I tried, I tried!
46
00:02:27,034 --> 00:02:28,241
-[Antwon] You know,
I wanted to talk with you.
-[Michael] No!
47
00:02:28,344 --> 00:02:29,206
Let me--
48
00:02:29,310 --> 00:02:30,931
-Let's--
-Leave me alone!
49
00:02:31,034 --> 00:02:34,206
[Beth] Is she running the risk
that he's gonna get up
and walk out again?
50
00:02:34,310 --> 00:02:37,448
But you have to fight
to get to the truth.
51
00:02:37,551 --> 00:02:41,827
[Antwon] I'm hopeful
that something is gonna
really uncover the truth
52
00:02:41,930 --> 00:02:45,551
and that we're one step closer
to getting justice done.
53
00:02:45,655 --> 00:02:48,379
[Terrance] I don't view
Natalia as a devil,
54
00:02:48,482 --> 00:02:50,137
but I also don't view her
as an angel.
55
00:02:51,137 --> 00:02:52,448
There's something sinister
about her.
56
00:02:53,344 --> 00:02:55,000
Everywhere Natalia has been,
57
00:02:56,034 --> 00:02:57,551
drama follows.
58
00:02:57,655 --> 00:03:00,103
Everywhere Natalia has been,
59
00:03:00,206 --> 00:03:02,655
families have been
in upheaval.
60
00:03:02,758 --> 00:03:06,206
My opinion, Natalia is
a very damaged person,
61
00:03:06,896 --> 00:03:08,482
who will hurt others
62
00:03:08,586 --> 00:03:12,000
before the proverbial
"they hurt me."
63
00:03:12,103 --> 00:03:15,827
[Beth] This is
an opportunity for Natalia
that she's never had,
64
00:03:15,931 --> 00:03:20,620
to sit down as an adult
and ask questions of Michael
65
00:03:20,724 --> 00:03:23,517
and she gets to try
to hold him accountable
66
00:03:23,620 --> 00:03:26,689
for what happened to her
years ago.
67
00:03:26,793 --> 00:03:30,793
[Natalia] Michael,
whatever you got to say,
go ahead and say it.
68
00:03:30,896 --> 00:03:33,827
I'm just praying
that it's actually the truth.
69
00:03:33,930 --> 00:03:35,172
[Beth] Given what happened
the first time
70
00:03:35,275 --> 00:03:38,103
Michael and Natalia
got together
and he stormed out,
71
00:03:38,206 --> 00:03:39,758
anything could happen
this time.
72
00:03:41,310 --> 00:03:42,275
[car approaching]
73
00:03:44,067 --> 00:03:46,034
[pop song playing
on car radio]
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00:03:51,067 --> 00:03:51,896
[music stops]
75
00:04:19,172 --> 00:04:20,000
Hi.
76
00:04:25,586 --> 00:04:26,482
Hi.
77
00:04:29,965 --> 00:04:31,103
Ah!
78
00:04:34,206 --> 00:04:36,172
[sighing] Oy vey.
So, where were we?
79
00:04:37,344 --> 00:04:39,310
[theme music playing]
80
00:04:48,862 --> 00:04:49,758
[Michael]
Where do you want to start?
81
00:04:51,724 --> 00:04:54,448
We could start
from where you left off.
82
00:04:54,551 --> 00:04:59,620
I believe the question
we were on... was
why didn't I leave Kristine.
83
00:05:00,517 --> 00:05:02,068
It's difficult
to understand.
84
00:05:02,758 --> 00:05:03,586
But, after...
85
00:05:05,034 --> 00:05:06,827
15 plus years of...
86
00:05:09,103 --> 00:05:14,000
being put down,
and degraded, and controlled,
and threatened,
87
00:05:16,413 --> 00:05:19,068
I didn't have
any strength at all
to stand up to her.
88
00:05:20,103 --> 00:05:21,413
I... I wish I did.
89
00:05:21,931 --> 00:05:23,000
Wish I did.
90
00:05:24,034 --> 00:05:24,862
I didn't.
91
00:05:26,068 --> 00:05:28,827
-You ever seen
the movie Monsters, Inc.?
-Yes.
92
00:05:28,931 --> 00:05:31,310
You know, the same monster
goes through bunches
of doors and...
93
00:05:31,413 --> 00:05:32,448
-Yeah.
-...all these kids
around the world
94
00:05:32,551 --> 00:05:33,724
have the same monster,
but they don't know it?
95
00:05:33,827 --> 00:05:34,620
Mmm-hmm.
96
00:05:34,724 --> 00:05:35,862
We had the same monster
97
00:05:37,551 --> 00:05:38,344
and we didn't know it.
98
00:05:39,172 --> 00:05:41,379
For... years.
99
00:05:44,689 --> 00:05:45,724
[Michael sighing]
100
00:05:50,758 --> 00:05:52,655
-Everybody that knows me...
-[inhales deeply]
101
00:05:53,724 --> 00:05:56,344
we... don't call her
by "Kristine."
102
00:05:56,448 --> 00:05:57,689
Matter of fact,
I hate the word.
103
00:05:57,793 --> 00:05:59,896
I don't like the word.
I don't like hearing the word.
104
00:06:00,965 --> 00:06:02,620
Um... her name is "Evil."
105
00:06:03,862 --> 00:06:05,000
Um, every now and then
I'll call her
106
00:06:05,103 --> 00:06:06,551
-"The Wicked Witch
of the South," but--
-[snorts]
107
00:06:07,275 --> 00:06:08,241
Sorry.
108
00:06:08,344 --> 00:06:10,344
No, it's okay,
a little levity is all right.
109
00:06:10,448 --> 00:06:12,655
But... she's earned it.
110
00:06:15,724 --> 00:06:17,965
[both sighing]
111
00:06:18,068 --> 00:06:18,931
[Michael] We had
the same monster
112
00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:20,896
and we didn't know it.
113
00:06:21,620 --> 00:06:23,931
For... years.
114
00:06:24,827 --> 00:06:27,275
From the second interview
Michael gave us,
115
00:06:27,379 --> 00:06:31,551
he was blaming Kristine
for a lot of the dysfunction
in the household.
116
00:06:31,655 --> 00:06:34,241
Kristine was the purveyor
of the word "abuse."
117
00:06:34,344 --> 00:06:35,862
Controlling, manipulating,
brainwashing.
118
00:06:35,965 --> 00:06:38,896
Her nickname is "Evil"
and she's earned every letter.
119
00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,724
And he's continuing to do that
in this conversation.
120
00:06:41,827 --> 00:06:44,172
And Natalia's bonding with him
a little bit,
121
00:06:44,275 --> 00:06:46,000
you know, they're having
their little trauma bonding,
122
00:06:46,103 --> 00:06:48,379
that they were both abused
by Kristine
123
00:06:48,482 --> 00:06:51,862
in different ways,
but they were both
victims of Kristine.
124
00:06:51,965 --> 00:06:53,586
So, you can...
you can see that,
125
00:06:53,689 --> 00:06:56,655
you can see her warming up
a little bit to him.
126
00:07:00,448 --> 00:07:03,000
What do you know
that Kristine did to me?
127
00:07:03,517 --> 00:07:04,620
[Michael sighs]
128
00:07:05,862 --> 00:07:07,620
I know some things.
129
00:07:08,551 --> 00:07:10,034
Other things
I just learned.
130
00:07:11,689 --> 00:07:13,655
And then this
is gonna sound silly...
131
00:07:17,896 --> 00:07:19,000
I'm afraid of
what I don't know.
132
00:07:21,793 --> 00:07:23,448
Like... [sighing]
133
00:07:24,551 --> 00:07:25,724
I know a little.
134
00:07:26,517 --> 00:07:27,482
I don't know a lot.
135
00:07:28,448 --> 00:07:29,310
Um...
136
00:07:30,379 --> 00:07:32,103
-What do you know?
-[exhales]
137
00:07:33,034 --> 00:07:34,241
It's a very long answer.
138
00:07:34,344 --> 00:07:36,862
-I mean, that could...
that could take us a week.
-Just...
139
00:07:36,965 --> 00:07:38,241
-[Michael sighs]
-...the highlights.
140
00:07:38,344 --> 00:07:39,137
[laughs humorlessly]
141
00:07:40,896 --> 00:07:42,068
[sighs]
142
00:07:42,172 --> 00:07:43,034
Golly, I just...
143
00:07:52,068 --> 00:07:52,896
Um...
144
00:07:56,206 --> 00:08:00,275
Michael is being very careful,
whether he's worried
about a court of law,
145
00:08:00,758 --> 00:08:02,172
civil or criminal,
146
00:08:02,275 --> 00:08:07,551
or... just, you know,
the court of public opinion,
to use a cliche.
147
00:08:07,655 --> 00:08:10,379
It just seems like
he's been advised
148
00:08:10,482 --> 00:08:13,137
by his attorney
to steer clear,
149
00:08:13,241 --> 00:08:16,172
or not admit
any kind of liability,
150
00:08:16,275 --> 00:08:17,965
or incriminate you
in any way.
151
00:08:19,103 --> 00:08:23,034
I'm so afraid of the things
I don't know about.
152
00:08:23,137 --> 00:08:24,931
And I don't wanna know
the things I don't know about.
[voice breaking]
153
00:08:25,793 --> 00:08:27,206
Because I know
they're all terrible.
154
00:08:28,931 --> 00:08:31,551
And I'd rather
just not know
155
00:08:31,655 --> 00:08:33,344
that there's
such horrible things
in the world.
156
00:08:34,136 --> 00:08:34,965
[sniffs]
157
00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:37,724
But life doesn't give us
those opportunities.
158
00:08:39,551 --> 00:08:41,758
[exhales] The only chance
159
00:08:42,413 --> 00:08:44,241
I have...
160
00:08:44,344 --> 00:08:48,172
at an okay future,
and maybe you've got
a little of this in there too,
161
00:08:50,586 --> 00:08:51,517
if all of us...
162
00:08:52,034 --> 00:08:53,379
if every...
163
00:08:54,448 --> 00:08:55,586
if everyone...
164
00:08:56,793 --> 00:08:58,931
just stands up and says,
165
00:09:01,655 --> 00:09:03,827
"This is what happens,
what she did."
166
00:09:03,931 --> 00:09:05,137
If we do it all
at the same time,
167
00:09:07,965 --> 00:09:10,413
she can't scream
and lie her way out of it.
168
00:09:12,827 --> 00:09:14,482
[Beth] He's continuing
to deflect.
169
00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:16,310
You gotta wonder,
170
00:09:16,413 --> 00:09:18,896
'cause his lawyers were
always present
at all the interviews,
171
00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,724
including that first sit-down
with Natalia
that lasted only minutes.
172
00:09:22,827 --> 00:09:25,517
His lawyer,
Terrance, is smart.
173
00:09:25,620 --> 00:09:27,448
He may have
advised Michael
174
00:09:27,551 --> 00:09:29,655
how to pivot away
from an answer and...
175
00:09:30,517 --> 00:09:32,931
you know, deflect it
to Kristine.
176
00:09:33,034 --> 00:09:34,344
-[Terrance] You got this.
-[Michael] I know.
177
00:09:34,448 --> 00:09:36,827
[Beth]
It's a brilliant deflection.
178
00:09:36,931 --> 00:09:38,724
But that's not
being evasive.
179
00:09:38,827 --> 00:09:41,586
My experience
with Michael,
180
00:09:41,689 --> 00:09:46,275
I absolutely think
he suffers from PTSD
as a result of his marriage.
181
00:09:47,379 --> 00:09:51,172
I think he still has
a lot of mental trauma
182
00:09:51,275 --> 00:09:53,206
as a result of the loss
of his marriage.
183
00:09:53,310 --> 00:09:56,758
And I know he believes
that Kristine is
the reason for that.
184
00:09:57,931 --> 00:10:01,103
She has screamed
and screamed and screamed
185
00:10:01,206 --> 00:10:05,241
horrific, horrific,
horrific lies.
186
00:10:05,344 --> 00:10:07,896
[Natalia sighs]
I'm just like...
187
00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:12,206
I think he's just trying
to get the criticism
of the public off of him
188
00:10:12,310 --> 00:10:15,206
and trying to use the sympathy
to be like,
189
00:10:15,310 --> 00:10:18,586
"I was victimized, too," like,
"Please don't come after me."
190
00:10:18,689 --> 00:10:20,448
Like, "I was
a victim too in this."
191
00:10:21,137 --> 00:10:22,310
But the thing is, for me,
192
00:10:23,172 --> 00:10:24,758
yes, you were a victim,
193
00:10:25,827 --> 00:10:28,310
but you also...
194
00:10:29,482 --> 00:10:31,034
was the perpetrator.
195
00:10:31,137 --> 00:10:32,965
You were an accomplice
of it all, too.
196
00:10:36,517 --> 00:10:38,413
If Kristine was
this so-called monster,
197
00:10:39,620 --> 00:10:40,620
he could have fought her.
198
00:10:41,413 --> 00:10:42,241
I couldn't.
199
00:10:46,206 --> 00:10:47,689
What was the conversation
200
00:10:49,034 --> 00:10:50,827
about dropping me off
in the apartment?
201
00:10:52,034 --> 00:10:53,827
What was that conversation?
202
00:10:54,620 --> 00:10:56,793
Um, Westfield or Lafayette?
203
00:10:57,689 --> 00:10:58,965
We'll start with Westfield.
204
00:10:59,965 --> 00:11:01,275
Um...
205
00:11:01,379 --> 00:11:02,758
Again, conversation...
206
00:11:03,586 --> 00:11:05,344
Just what happened.
207
00:11:05,448 --> 00:11:07,724
You have to understand there's
not a lot of conversation,
there's a lot of dictating.
208
00:11:08,931 --> 00:11:11,206
Did you know
that she was... [sniffs]
209
00:11:11,862 --> 00:11:12,827
getting me an ID?
210
00:11:13,689 --> 00:11:14,689
Yes, I did.
211
00:11:15,241 --> 00:11:16,655
At that point of time,
212
00:11:16,758 --> 00:11:19,689
-legally your age
had been altered by the state.
-[breathing shakily]
213
00:11:19,793 --> 00:11:22,413
You, like anybody else,
need to have an ID.
214
00:11:23,724 --> 00:11:25,862
Okay. Let's step back and...
215
00:11:26,896 --> 00:11:29,068
What... Whose idea was it?
216
00:11:29,827 --> 00:11:30,655
Was what?
217
00:11:33,551 --> 00:11:34,758
With the age change.
218
00:11:43,517 --> 00:11:46,689
I did tell all these guys
we're not getting
into that subject.
219
00:11:49,586 --> 00:11:50,655
Why can't you say it?
220
00:11:51,931 --> 00:11:53,344
Did you guys not...
221
00:11:53,448 --> 00:11:55,172
-[man 1] Yes.
-...cover these parameters?
222
00:11:55,275 --> 00:11:56,965
-[man 1] I thought...
-[Michael] I... I...
You know me.
223
00:11:57,068 --> 00:11:59,793
[sighing]
224
00:11:59,896 --> 00:12:02,068
-Not a... not a good idea.
-[man 1] I understand.
I understand.
225
00:12:02,172 --> 00:12:03,896
-I need to step outside
for a minute.
-Come outside.
226
00:12:11,896 --> 00:12:14,034
[man 2] It's not like
you guys are fighting.
227
00:12:15,068 --> 00:12:16,344
-And I know that...
-[Michael] Hey.
228
00:12:18,379 --> 00:12:20,137
-Hi.
-[Natalia whispering]
Okay.
229
00:12:23,344 --> 00:12:26,655
Michael doesn't want to talk
about changing my age.
230
00:12:26,758 --> 00:12:29,586
Michael just left.
He was running away again.
231
00:12:29,689 --> 00:12:30,517
You don't care.
232
00:12:30,620 --> 00:12:32,620
Like, that's what I feel like.
233
00:12:32,724 --> 00:12:35,413
They didn't care that they...
234
00:12:35,517 --> 00:12:39,448
left a little girl
in an apartment
at eight years old,
235
00:12:39,551 --> 00:12:42,344
changed her whole age
from 8 to 22.
236
00:12:42,448 --> 00:12:44,551
That's, like,
a 15-year stretch.
237
00:12:46,586 --> 00:12:48,862
Like, just admit it.
238
00:12:50,034 --> 00:12:52,000
A lot of things
would have been different,
239
00:12:52,103 --> 00:12:56,413
if they would have...
maybe just sent me back.
240
00:12:56,517 --> 00:12:59,137
There were some ground rules
going into this,
241
00:12:59,241 --> 00:13:01,000
and one of them was that
242
00:13:01,103 --> 00:13:03,689
the re-aging is off-topic.
243
00:13:03,793 --> 00:13:06,724
That is off the table,
not to be discussed.
244
00:13:06,827 --> 00:13:08,103
I just... I wanna stay away
from things
245
00:13:08,206 --> 00:13:10,931
that might be
too emotionally... touchy,
that's all.
246
00:13:11,034 --> 00:13:14,344
Okay. We can step away
from that, 'cause I got
a lot of questions.
247
00:13:14,448 --> 00:13:15,275
Okay.
248
00:13:19,413 --> 00:13:21,482
Why not just put me
up for adoption again?
249
00:13:24,793 --> 00:13:28,724
Unfortunately, the real answer
for that lies in Evil's head.
250
00:13:28,827 --> 00:13:31,620
I can make
a couple assumptions
that are pretty good ones.
251
00:13:32,310 --> 00:13:33,310
You're in that time
252
00:13:33,965 --> 00:13:35,482
after Florida
253
00:13:35,586 --> 00:13:40,241
and before the Ciccones
released you,
that six-month period,
254
00:13:40,344 --> 00:13:41,689
where things just...
255
00:13:41,793 --> 00:13:42,965
Something was wrong.
256
00:13:43,620 --> 00:13:45,034
Something was off.
257
00:13:45,586 --> 00:13:46,620
During that time,
258
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:49,827
I had...
259
00:13:50,758 --> 00:13:53,206
the conversation
with the monster
260
00:13:53,310 --> 00:13:56,689
about, "Look.
Things aren't working right.
261
00:13:56,793 --> 00:13:58,862
Maybe this is
no harm, no foul.
262
00:13:58,965 --> 00:14:01,827
We don't have to do anything,
'cause you legally were
still theirs.
263
00:14:03,172 --> 00:14:08,586
Maybe we just walk
away from this
and... cool our jets."
264
00:14:08,689 --> 00:14:12,517
And that was met with a very,
very, very, very, very, very,
very, very, very stern "No."
265
00:14:13,310 --> 00:14:14,344
Why?
266
00:14:16,068 --> 00:14:17,034
The deeper "why"
267
00:14:19,379 --> 00:14:21,379
and this is all assumption
and allegedly,
268
00:14:21,482 --> 00:14:23,448
so make sure you guys are
putting the word "allegedly"
over this,
269
00:14:23,551 --> 00:14:25,034
like, in flashing letters,
right?
270
00:14:26,827 --> 00:14:30,206
She saw... the adoption,
271
00:14:30,310 --> 00:14:32,275
especially the adoption
of somebody
with special needs,
272
00:14:33,344 --> 00:14:34,172
as...
273
00:14:34,965 --> 00:14:36,689
a societal thing.
274
00:14:38,241 --> 00:14:40,448
The one thing
we can always count on,
275
00:14:40,551 --> 00:14:44,413
is Evil sure does love her
some attention.
276
00:14:44,517 --> 00:14:47,482
And some cameras,
and some eyes on her,
277
00:14:47,586 --> 00:14:49,034
and people worshipping her.
278
00:14:49,137 --> 00:14:53,275
She wrote out a full
one-page piece of paper once
279
00:14:53,379 --> 00:14:56,551
explaining to me
why she qualifies
for sainthood,
280
00:14:56,655 --> 00:14:59,655
based on the two miracles
she's performed.
281
00:14:59,758 --> 00:15:02,000
[grunts] That's who
we're dealing with.
282
00:15:02,103 --> 00:15:04,931
So, when you're dealing
with that level
of narcissist,
283
00:15:05,551 --> 00:15:07,068
it's vaguely possible
284
00:15:07,793 --> 00:15:09,862
that she saw the adoption
285
00:15:09,965 --> 00:15:13,724
as a [in female voice]
"Aren't I a great person,
everyone?
286
00:15:13,827 --> 00:15:15,862
Look at me.
Hey, neighbors! Look.
287
00:15:15,965 --> 00:15:20,344
I'm... I'm so wonderful.
I'm so wonderful.
I'm so charitable."
288
00:15:20,448 --> 00:15:23,000
She compared herself
to Oprah regularly.
289
00:15:23,103 --> 00:15:25,482
She was gonna be the Oprah
for autistic kids.
290
00:15:25,586 --> 00:15:26,862
I've heard this
so many times.
291
00:15:27,586 --> 00:15:29,482
So, my assumption is,
292
00:15:29,586 --> 00:15:34,137
the reason that
she wouldn't undo
where we were,
293
00:15:34,241 --> 00:15:36,620
all those people that were,
"Hey, look at me. Look at me.
Look at me.
294
00:15:36,724 --> 00:15:38,448
Aren't I great?
Aren't I great?
Aren't I great?
295
00:15:38,551 --> 00:15:40,551
Wait, what do you mean
where's my newly
adopted daughter?
296
00:15:40,655 --> 00:15:42,517
Oh, hell, I've got
to explain this."
297
00:15:45,310 --> 00:15:47,551
Did she tell you
why she took me
out of school?
298
00:15:48,724 --> 00:15:51,172
Um... she did.
299
00:15:51,275 --> 00:15:55,172
I was told...
that you were a danger
to the other students,
300
00:15:55,275 --> 00:15:58,137
that you were ramming
your wheelchair into them
on purpose,
301
00:15:58,241 --> 00:16:00,827
that you had taken
your parking brake
off the wheelchair and hid it,
302
00:16:00,931 --> 00:16:02,931
blah, blah... We don't need
to get into this, this is...
303
00:16:03,034 --> 00:16:04,586
This is rough stuff.
304
00:16:04,689 --> 00:16:07,172
She told me
that she was protecting
other first grade children
305
00:16:07,275 --> 00:16:09,379
by removing you
from the class.
306
00:16:09,482 --> 00:16:11,620
What I remember is
Kristine telling me that
307
00:16:13,034 --> 00:16:16,068
she was getting a phone call
at 9 o'clock every single day.
308
00:16:16,172 --> 00:16:19,413
I couldn't say whether she was
or wasn't getting a phone call
every day.
309
00:16:20,034 --> 00:16:21,241
From my end of things,
310
00:16:21,344 --> 00:16:22,965
she never told me
she was getting a phone call
every day.
311
00:16:25,758 --> 00:16:27,896
According to Kristine,
312
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,793
she was getting complaints
from the school
313
00:16:29,896 --> 00:16:33,344
that Natalia was intentionally
ramming her wheelchair
into the students.
314
00:16:40,551 --> 00:16:44,310
Yes, the teacher stated
that Natalia had hit children
with the wheelchair.
315
00:16:50,034 --> 00:16:52,482
He behavior was nothing
but extraordinary.
316
00:16:54,034 --> 00:16:56,034
[detective] Did she ever
cause you any problems?
317
00:16:56,137 --> 00:16:58,344
[principal] Oh, my gosh, no.
She was a delight.
318
00:16:58,448 --> 00:17:02,000
My teacher said I...
that she never had
to call Kristine.
319
00:17:03,413 --> 00:17:06,792
That I didn't do
what Kristine was claiming
that I did. Nothing.
320
00:17:06,896 --> 00:17:11,241
Nobody did any of the things
she accused everyone of doing.
321
00:17:17,689 --> 00:17:20,827
Yes. Natalia stated,
"I want to hurt
the other kids."
322
00:17:24,448 --> 00:17:25,241
[Michael] Yes.
323
00:17:30,551 --> 00:17:31,379
"I don't like them."
324
00:17:34,827 --> 00:17:35,655
[Terrance] Listen.
325
00:17:37,034 --> 00:17:39,793
Michael and Kristine took
Natalia out of school
326
00:17:39,896 --> 00:17:43,068
simply because
she did not belong there.
327
00:17:43,172 --> 00:17:45,655
Even when she's not
with the Barnetts,
328
00:17:46,551 --> 00:17:48,000
we have to remember
329
00:17:48,103 --> 00:17:51,310
when Natalia lived
with the Ciccones
she was home-schooled.
330
00:17:52,689 --> 00:17:55,000
So, at every stop
that Natalia's been,
331
00:17:55,103 --> 00:17:58,000
there are all these reports
about her abhorrent behavior.
332
00:17:58,103 --> 00:18:01,103
The story Natalia wants
to push forward now is,
333
00:18:01,206 --> 00:18:04,206
"I was a victim
and I was victimized
by the Barnetts."
334
00:18:07,413 --> 00:18:10,896
[Cynthia] Natalia is
a broken young lady
335
00:18:12,931 --> 00:18:15,586
that's being fixed
every day,
336
00:18:15,689 --> 00:18:19,310
but Natalia is the sweetest,
the happiest little girl
337
00:18:19,413 --> 00:18:21,379
that I've ever met
in my life.
338
00:18:21,482 --> 00:18:25,034
Like, for everything
she's been through
I just can't say it enough
339
00:18:25,137 --> 00:18:29,586
how... bright she is,
how smart she is,
340
00:18:29,689 --> 00:18:32,793
how happy she is,
how thankful she is,
341
00:18:32,896 --> 00:18:35,413
how much she loves God.
342
00:18:40,586 --> 00:18:43,896
I would say
she has been, uh...
343
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,241
violent in a typical way,
like most kids do.
344
00:18:47,344 --> 00:18:50,689
You know, most kids fight,
most kids argue.
345
00:18:50,793 --> 00:18:53,551
But nothing unusual
to where there was just,
346
00:18:54,517 --> 00:18:58,310
um, crazy unrest
in that sort of way.
347
00:18:58,413 --> 00:19:01,689
There's nothing dangerous
about Natalia at all.
348
00:19:01,793 --> 00:19:03,000
Absolutely not.
349
00:19:06,344 --> 00:19:10,482
[Natalia] And then,
here's the big butthead
of everybody's lives.
350
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,310
See, there she goes,
being a butthead,
not even listening.
351
00:19:16,344 --> 00:19:19,413
Okay, there's something
I don't wanna say,
352
00:19:19,517 --> 00:19:21,931
'cause I think it will...
it might make her feel bad
353
00:19:22,034 --> 00:19:25,862
and she's already felt bad
about it, but...
and then, it's like...
354
00:19:26,896 --> 00:19:29,827
Okay, I will only say it
if you don't tell her.
355
00:19:32,655 --> 00:19:35,000
[murmuring] She beat me
when I was a baby.
356
00:19:36,206 --> 00:19:38,965
But the thing is,
she didn't know any better.
357
00:19:39,068 --> 00:19:42,896
I mean, she did, but she said
it was, like, when she was 10.
358
00:19:45,137 --> 00:19:45,965
And...
359
00:19:46,827 --> 00:19:48,344
she didn't really know.
360
00:19:55,655 --> 00:19:57,310
Bye-bye!
361
00:20:00,724 --> 00:20:02,275
[Terrance] The Mans took her
to the hospital.
362
00:20:02,896 --> 00:20:04,344
St. Franciscan.
363
00:20:04,448 --> 00:20:08,103
And, you know, the report was,
she had harmed
one of their children.
364
00:20:08,206 --> 00:20:11,517
And that she had been
disruptive in the house,
she had been violent.
365
00:20:12,379 --> 00:20:14,137
And they wanted
to leave her there
366
00:20:14,241 --> 00:20:16,758
and she wasn't welcome
back in their home.
367
00:20:16,862 --> 00:20:18,931
And there was also
additional parts
of that report
368
00:20:19,034 --> 00:20:22,000
where Natalia wanted
to take a taxi to go back
to the Mans
369
00:20:22,103 --> 00:20:24,482
and, allegedly,
when the hospital reaches out
to the Mans,
370
00:20:24,586 --> 00:20:26,896
they're told,
"She can't come back.
She's not welcome.
371
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,241
We don't want her
calling us anymore."
372
00:20:29,344 --> 00:20:32,758
These reports were written
by medical staff.
373
00:20:32,862 --> 00:20:38,551
Psychologists, psychiatrists,
MDs, counselors,
nursing staff.
374
00:20:38,655 --> 00:20:40,413
[intense music playing]
375
00:20:40,517 --> 00:20:42,137
When you look at
all the families
376
00:20:42,241 --> 00:20:44,965
that she's been connected to
that we are aware of,
377
00:20:45,068 --> 00:20:48,103
From the Ciccones,
to the Barnetts, to the Mans.
378
00:20:48,206 --> 00:20:51,206
All of these families
are reporting similar
instances
379
00:20:51,310 --> 00:20:54,413
where Natalias
has inflicted harm
on a family member.
380
00:20:54,517 --> 00:20:58,068
Are we all saying
that all of these folks
are wrong and are liars
381
00:20:58,172 --> 00:21:01,137
and that Natalia is simply
this innocent bystander?
382
00:21:01,241 --> 00:21:05,620
She's this innocent wallflower
who's just been victimized
by all these families?
383
00:21:05,724 --> 00:21:10,000
That defies logic.
Where there's smoke,
there's fire.
384
00:21:12,827 --> 00:21:17,862
I never even spoke
with the hospital people
because she was an adult.
385
00:21:17,965 --> 00:21:21,344
So they would not
let me in with her.
386
00:21:21,448 --> 00:21:25,172
I feel like, Kristine
definitely must have
called the hospital
387
00:21:25,275 --> 00:21:29,172
and told them
that this is what happened
388
00:21:29,275 --> 00:21:32,620
and all of these things
because those are not
my words.
389
00:21:32,724 --> 00:21:35,793
I don't know who drew that up,
who wrote that.
390
00:21:35,896 --> 00:21:37,206
Because that was not
what's said.
391
00:21:37,310 --> 00:21:39,689
[suspenseful music playing]
392
00:21:39,793 --> 00:21:41,241
Can we go back a little bit?
393
00:21:41,862 --> 00:21:43,551
Go wherever you want.
394
00:21:43,655 --> 00:21:45,862
Do you remember
the first time meeting me?
395
00:21:45,965 --> 00:21:47,275
Yep, sure do.
396
00:21:47,793 --> 00:21:49,655
Do you remember
397
00:21:49,758 --> 00:21:52,620
meeting the family
I was with before?
398
00:21:52,724 --> 00:21:54,206
Never met them.
399
00:21:54,310 --> 00:21:56,448
They were in the room
across the hall from ours.
400
00:21:56,551 --> 00:21:58,517
So we were each
in this two little--
401
00:21:58,620 --> 00:22:01,379
I consider them like,
"bedroom-esque thing"
but little offices.
402
00:22:01,482 --> 00:22:03,517
There was uh,
there was a hallway.
403
00:22:03,620 --> 00:22:05,206
We got there before you did.
404
00:22:05,310 --> 00:22:10,103
So we, Kristine,
I, the boys,
are in this room.
405
00:22:10,206 --> 00:22:12,206
We can hear
the front door open.
406
00:22:12,310 --> 00:22:15,275
We can hear voices,
we hear people
walking down the hall.
407
00:22:15,379 --> 00:22:17,586
And we hear people
go into that room,
and we hear a voice
408
00:22:17,689 --> 00:22:19,586
saying, "Well, just stay there
until you're ready."
409
00:22:19,689 --> 00:22:22,344
The entire time,
Jacob, Wesley, Ethan, and I,
410
00:22:22,448 --> 00:22:23,931
are at this door
411
00:22:24,034 --> 00:22:26,724
with our ears pressed up
against it, like this,
412
00:22:26,827 --> 00:22:29,241
trying to hear
everything we can.
413
00:22:29,344 --> 00:22:32,103
"That's your new sister.
That's our new daughter."
What does she sound like?
414
00:22:32,206 --> 00:22:34,275
"Hey, we heard her voice!"
415
00:22:34,379 --> 00:22:38,379
"What... What did she do?"
"Hey, I think she said hi!"
I just...
416
00:22:38,482 --> 00:22:41,620
We're doing that.
Ethan goes and gets a glass.
417
00:22:42,655 --> 00:22:44,758
Puts the glass
against the wall.
418
00:22:44,862 --> 00:22:46,517
We start looking
though the peep hole
419
00:22:46,620 --> 00:22:48,275
to try to see
if we can see anything.
420
00:22:49,379 --> 00:22:51,758
The boys spent the night
making shirts.
421
00:22:51,862 --> 00:22:54,862
"We love you, Natalia.
Welcome home, sister."
They were so excited.
422
00:22:56,655 --> 00:22:59,068
I remember everything
about the first day.
423
00:23:00,034 --> 00:23:01,827
I remember that day too.
424
00:23:01,931 --> 00:23:05,793
Um, I remember
sitting in a chair,
425
00:23:05,896 --> 00:23:08,413
right across
from where you guys were.
426
00:23:10,275 --> 00:23:14,344
But I also remembered
Diane and Gary
coming in the room.
427
00:23:15,068 --> 00:23:17,034
I never met them.
428
00:23:17,137 --> 00:23:19,275
They never came out
of the room.
They kept us totally separate.
429
00:23:19,379 --> 00:23:21,862
The Adoption by Shepherd Care
people told us,
430
00:23:21,965 --> 00:23:24,379
it was a closed adoption
and the surrendering family
431
00:23:24,482 --> 00:23:28,241
did not want to share
any information with us
and did not want to meet us.
432
00:23:28,344 --> 00:23:31,724
We've never met.
I have never met
Gary or Diane.
433
00:23:33,896 --> 00:23:36,482
Well, I don't know
what that's about then.
434
00:23:36,586 --> 00:23:40,034
I didn't know their names
until like a month later.
435
00:23:45,379 --> 00:23:46,413
[sighs heavily] Um...
436
00:23:50,896 --> 00:23:53,275
I remember...
437
00:23:53,379 --> 00:23:57,000
Diane and Gary came out
and they told me that you guys
wanted to see me.
438
00:23:59,551 --> 00:24:02,172
But they never came out
of the room and talked to us.
They just--
439
00:24:02,275 --> 00:24:04,034
They came in, dropped you off.
440
00:24:04,137 --> 00:24:06,482
Came back out,
talked to other people
and... [whistles] gone.
441
00:24:08,448 --> 00:24:11,689
[Beth] Natalia's six.
Does she really remember?
442
00:24:11,793 --> 00:24:14,724
It's an event though,
that, you know,
she's meeting "new parents"
443
00:24:14,827 --> 00:24:16,172
that she really
might remember.
444
00:24:16,275 --> 00:24:18,310
She's leaving the old,
and meeting the new.
445
00:24:20,931 --> 00:24:23,827
But what lends
a little credence
446
00:24:23,931 --> 00:24:28,000
to Natalia's version,
is that she remembers
447
00:24:28,103 --> 00:24:30,793
running into them
or seeing them
at Disney World
448
00:24:30,896 --> 00:24:32,517
while they were in Florida.
449
00:24:32,620 --> 00:24:34,379
And saying,
"Oh, you know, there's Mommy."
450
00:24:34,482 --> 00:24:35,517
And Kristine saying, "No..."
451
00:24:35,620 --> 00:24:37,034
[both] I'm your mommy now.
452
00:24:38,241 --> 00:24:40,172
That's really important.
453
00:24:40,275 --> 00:24:43,172
Like that is a kind
of little fact,
454
00:24:43,275 --> 00:24:45,896
like, why would
she make that up?
455
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,241
I mean, that, to me,
has a ring of truth.
456
00:24:48,344 --> 00:24:50,172
[somber instrumental music
playing]
457
00:24:50,275 --> 00:24:53,413
Michael's adamant
that he didn't even know
the Ciccones' name
458
00:24:53,517 --> 00:24:56,724
for a month, that this was
a closed adoption,
but we know
459
00:24:56,827 --> 00:24:59,586
he and Kristine
had Natalia's medical records
460
00:24:59,689 --> 00:25:02,586
and the Ciccones' names
were in the medical records
461
00:25:02,689 --> 00:25:04,413
from the time
they adopted her.
462
00:25:04,517 --> 00:25:06,206
And we know that
because the prosecutor
told us that.
463
00:25:06,310 --> 00:25:08,379
Jackie Starbuck
told us that.
464
00:25:08,482 --> 00:25:12,758
So, I don't know why
he insists upon continuing
465
00:25:12,862 --> 00:25:15,000
to say it was
a closed adoption.
466
00:25:15,896 --> 00:25:19,862
So, somebody is mistaken
or lying.
467
00:25:30,965 --> 00:25:33,896
-I got a question for you.
-Yeah, I got lots
of answers for you.
468
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,793
You might not like
all of them,
but I got them.
469
00:25:35,896 --> 00:25:40,827
I mean, look,
what you got to say,
I'm gonna hear it, okay?
470
00:25:40,931 --> 00:25:42,517
[Michael sighs]
471
00:25:42,620 --> 00:25:43,862
Do you remember
putting a lock
on my door?
472
00:25:45,068 --> 00:25:46,448
Yes.
473
00:25:46,551 --> 00:25:49,758
The latch. Um, we were
actually told to do that by,
uh, the doctors.
474
00:25:51,517 --> 00:25:55,068
Do you remember what happened
while you were putting
the lock on the door?
475
00:25:55,896 --> 00:25:56,758
Nope.
476
00:25:58,482 --> 00:26:03,551
So, you didn't realize
that Kristine
was hitting me or...
477
00:26:03,655 --> 00:26:05,551
-At that moment?
-Hitting me with a belt
478
00:26:05,655 --> 00:26:09,689
and letting the boys hit me
and letting Jacob drop me?
479
00:26:11,379 --> 00:26:12,517
You didn't?
480
00:26:15,586 --> 00:26:17,068
-No.
-[sobs]
481
00:26:18,896 --> 00:26:21,862
[sighs] Things relating
to Jacob...
482
00:26:21,965 --> 00:26:24,689
I didn't learn
until two years ago
when Jacob came back.
483
00:26:26,862 --> 00:26:29,758
And I just started
to learn those things.
484
00:26:31,103 --> 00:26:32,000
He and I have been...
485
00:26:33,620 --> 00:26:36,689
trying to figure out
how to mentally
come to terms with
486
00:26:38,344 --> 00:26:39,413
things that
487
00:26:40,586 --> 00:26:42,758
she forced them to do.
488
00:26:42,862 --> 00:26:44,862
He is so, so sorry.
489
00:26:46,793 --> 00:26:49,517
He is so sorry.
490
00:26:49,620 --> 00:26:51,344
And I have to keep
reminding him
491
00:26:51,448 --> 00:26:54,000
over and over and over
when we talk about this.
492
00:26:56,862 --> 00:26:58,172
He was...
493
00:26:58,275 --> 00:27:01,000
A child who was
being forced to do it.
494
00:27:02,103 --> 00:27:04,344
And it wasn't him. It...
495
00:27:05,586 --> 00:27:07,482
[Natalia sobbing]
496
00:27:07,586 --> 00:27:10,000
In the last three years,
Jacob and I have probably
cried together
497
00:27:10,103 --> 00:27:12,137
over a hundred times
regarding...
498
00:27:13,551 --> 00:27:16,862
this incident,
or that incident,
or this incident.
499
00:27:17,862 --> 00:27:19,310
There are...
500
00:27:19,413 --> 00:27:21,931
I wish I could tell you
a couple other things,
but I'm not allowed
501
00:27:22,034 --> 00:27:23,724
to tell you while on camera
and on a microphone.
502
00:27:45,551 --> 00:27:48,758
Some people took issue
with the airing of this
off-camera conversation
503
00:27:48,862 --> 00:27:50,896
that Michael and Jacob
were having,
seemingly private
504
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,965
until they realized
it's a hot mic.
505
00:27:53,068 --> 00:27:55,758
But it was very revealing.
506
00:27:55,862 --> 00:27:57,724
And it's important
to get to the truth.
507
00:28:04,482 --> 00:28:08,379
[Beth] It shows Michael
is aware of the statute
of limitations.
508
00:28:08,482 --> 00:28:12,000
And this
corroborates Natalia
509
00:28:12,103 --> 00:28:14,379
when she says
she was beaten.
510
00:28:14,482 --> 00:28:19,379
But what's really revealing
about it to me is that,
511
00:28:19,482 --> 00:28:22,482
they chose incidents
to talk about.
512
00:28:23,172 --> 00:28:25,103
And left things out.
513
00:28:25,724 --> 00:28:26,758
Michael's in control.
514
00:28:28,793 --> 00:28:30,448
[Michael] There's a lot
of cross blinds of
515
00:28:31,620 --> 00:28:32,655
who did
516
00:28:33,310 --> 00:28:35,586
what and when.
517
00:28:35,689 --> 00:28:39,310
Everything that Kristine
has ever said or claimed,
just assume is a lie.
518
00:28:40,517 --> 00:28:43,965
[Natalia] The way Michael
is talking,
519
00:28:44,068 --> 00:28:46,724
is just like last time.
520
00:28:46,827 --> 00:28:49,241
He made it about himself.
521
00:28:49,344 --> 00:28:52,241
And pretty much
blaming everything
on Kristine.
522
00:28:52,344 --> 00:28:53,931
I'm here
to hear Michael out.
523
00:28:54,034 --> 00:28:57,241
But, like, I want Michael
to know how I feel about this.
524
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,379
I want everybody to know
exactly how this affected me.
525
00:29:02,482 --> 00:29:05,862
I want him to know what he did
was completely wrong.
526
00:29:07,206 --> 00:29:08,827
How did you even feel
527
00:29:09,655 --> 00:29:12,413
when Kristine
was beating me?
528
00:29:12,517 --> 00:29:14,482
-Or--
-I will tell you
specifically how I felt.
529
00:29:15,689 --> 00:29:17,827
One day, I come home
from work and...
530
00:29:18,517 --> 00:29:20,103
You know already what...
531
00:29:21,068 --> 00:29:22,551
the air at home was.
532
00:29:23,172 --> 00:29:25,000
And I came in,
533
00:29:25,103 --> 00:29:26,793
you were... Your nose
is on the wall in the kitchen.
534
00:29:28,551 --> 00:29:30,655
And Kristine got up,
535
00:29:31,655 --> 00:29:33,275
and she just looked at me,
536
00:29:34,724 --> 00:29:35,862
"Back your wife up!"
537
00:29:36,931 --> 00:29:39,413
And she went, grabbed you
off the wall.
538
00:29:39,517 --> 00:29:41,448
She yanked you pretty good.
539
00:29:41,551 --> 00:29:44,344
You're over there
and she gets you to here.
540
00:29:46,068 --> 00:29:48,206
"Stay out of my way
or you'll never see
your sons again."
541
00:29:49,551 --> 00:29:51,517
And she launches you
on the ground.
542
00:29:52,344 --> 00:29:54,275
And the usual.
543
00:29:54,379 --> 00:29:56,724
"Who are you?
Where have you been?"
544
00:29:57,241 --> 00:29:58,862
And she's wailing.
545
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,862
I'm stunned
from what's going on.
I'm just... I'm shocked.
546
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,655
I'm frozen in fear.
547
00:30:07,758 --> 00:30:11,965
And I know for a fact,
if I do anything,
548
00:30:12,068 --> 00:30:15,068
I never see Wesley, Ethan,
or Jacob ever again.
549
00:30:15,172 --> 00:30:18,000
And I hate to put it to you
in that fashion,
550
00:30:18,103 --> 00:30:21,793
but I just wanted to have
my family all together.
551
00:30:22,551 --> 00:30:24,379
So I start recording it.
552
00:30:24,482 --> 00:30:28,655
And the only thing
I can think is, if I could
just show her,
553
00:30:28,758 --> 00:30:32,724
"Look at this.
This is abhorrent."
554
00:30:32,827 --> 00:30:35,931
I'm just thinking maybe
I could just show it to her
and she'll see how...
555
00:30:36,034 --> 00:30:38,275
bad she is
and she'll stop.
556
00:30:38,379 --> 00:30:41,206
She'll realize
she's gone too far
and she'll stop.
557
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,275
Except, she's crazy.
558
00:30:44,379 --> 00:30:47,310
And logic's not gonna work.
559
00:30:47,413 --> 00:30:51,586
So, when she's done,
she takes you up
to your room,
560
00:30:51,689 --> 00:30:55,724
while she's up there, I get
my phone and I hit play on it
so I could look at it and...
561
00:30:55,827 --> 00:30:56,793
it's just...
562
00:30:58,310 --> 00:31:00,310
disgusting.
563
00:31:00,413 --> 00:31:03,448
Unfortunately,
while I'm looking at it,
564
00:31:04,482 --> 00:31:06,034
she showed up
right behind me
565
00:31:07,586 --> 00:31:09,862
and if I ever want
to see my kids again,
566
00:31:09,965 --> 00:31:13,620
I have to reset my phone
right now in front of her
and delete everything.
567
00:31:15,241 --> 00:31:18,482
[Natalia] Michael, again,
was making up excuses.
568
00:31:18,586 --> 00:31:20,862
That really hurts.
569
00:31:20,965 --> 00:31:24,517
Instead of being a dad,
he was a coward.
570
00:31:25,137 --> 00:31:27,344
To me, Michael is guilty.
571
00:31:27,931 --> 00:31:29,896
Because he let it happen.
572
00:31:30,551 --> 00:31:32,620
[intense music playing]
573
00:31:37,206 --> 00:31:38,620
[somber music playing]
574
00:31:42,344 --> 00:31:43,896
Kristine's not my mom.
575
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,275
High five. Up top.
There you go.
576
00:31:47,379 --> 00:31:50,965
I stopped calling her
my mother the moment that she
just started doing everything,
577
00:31:51,068 --> 00:31:53,827
-started saying everything.
She was never my mom!
-She's evil.
578
00:31:58,241 --> 00:32:00,241
One time, when she was mad,
579
00:32:01,275 --> 00:32:03,379
Kristine put me
in a pink dress
580
00:32:03,482 --> 00:32:08,068
and she literally told me
to stand still like a gnome.
581
00:32:10,172 --> 00:32:12,862
I think I was actually doing
a little bit of schoolwork.
582
00:32:12,965 --> 00:32:16,482
I didn't get a question right
or something like that.
583
00:32:16,586 --> 00:32:20,827
And then, she moved the chair
into like, the front of the
window, like there was like,
584
00:32:20,931 --> 00:32:24,758
big window, that was in the,
um, in the dining room.
585
00:32:24,862 --> 00:32:27,793
She literally made me
a cone hat,
586
00:32:27,896 --> 00:32:30,724
gave me an apple,
put me in a pink dress,
587
00:32:30,827 --> 00:32:34,000
and told me I had
to stand still like a gnome.
588
00:32:34,103 --> 00:32:36,103
Just stand there. I can't lean
on the back of the chair,
589
00:32:36,206 --> 00:32:38,551
nothing. I just had
to stand there like a gnome.
590
00:32:39,482 --> 00:32:41,000
Like, literally,
I had to be like this.
591
00:32:41,103 --> 00:32:43,965
Apple was in my hand,
just stand right here.
592
00:32:44,068 --> 00:32:48,413
Just like a garden gnome.
Like, she literally told me
I couldn't move, nothing.
593
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,482
And I was there until Michael
got home from work.
594
00:32:52,586 --> 00:32:55,034
Which was,
it was starting to get dark.
595
00:32:55,137 --> 00:32:58,931
Neighbors were driving by,
nobody stopped
and said anything.
596
00:33:01,413 --> 00:33:05,275
[Natalia] Put me in a pink
dress and told me I had to
stand still like a gnome.
597
00:33:06,137 --> 00:33:08,551
I've read an exchange
598
00:33:08,655 --> 00:33:11,931
that was in the court file
part of discovery.
599
00:33:12,034 --> 00:33:14,344
This person close to Kristine,
600
00:33:15,517 --> 00:33:18,551
asks her,
"How's the midget?"
601
00:33:18,655 --> 00:33:20,655
And Kristine says,
"Still weird."
602
00:33:21,344 --> 00:33:23,413
Think about that.
603
00:33:23,517 --> 00:33:28,172
What does that tell you
about Kristine and like,
where her head is at?
604
00:33:29,689 --> 00:33:33,896
It's really unbelievable
that she had this organization
605
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,241
that was dedicated to
606
00:33:36,344 --> 00:33:40,103
helping raise awareness
about disabled people,
607
00:33:40,206 --> 00:33:42,965
who were experiencing physical
and verbal abuse
608
00:33:43,068 --> 00:33:46,931
and here she is,
I... I read it!
She's engaging in this.
609
00:33:47,034 --> 00:33:50,896
In the same conversation,
they're talking about
little people as gnomes.
610
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:52,620
Keep them away.
611
00:33:52,724 --> 00:33:56,068
Like, what are you
talking about?
612
00:33:56,172 --> 00:33:59,724
[Natalia] Did Kristine hate me
because of my dwarfism?
613
00:33:59,827 --> 00:34:03,379
That's how crazy it is.
Like, you wouldn't
think about that.
614
00:34:03,482 --> 00:34:06,310
You would not think,
"Oh, I'm gonna dress
this person up as a gnome."
615
00:34:06,413 --> 00:34:07,724
What?
616
00:34:19,137 --> 00:34:22,965
[Terrance] I think Natalia
had a very rough upbringing.
617
00:34:23,068 --> 00:34:25,103
However, at some level,
618
00:34:25,206 --> 00:34:29,862
Natalia has to be aware
and accountable
for her own behavior.
619
00:34:29,965 --> 00:34:33,068
When we look at the reports
from the Larue Carter
Hospital,
620
00:34:33,172 --> 00:34:35,827
there's a central theme
to all of this.
621
00:34:35,931 --> 00:34:39,688
And that theme has to do
with sexual promiscuity.
622
00:34:39,793 --> 00:34:42,585
There are third party accounts
of these reports.
623
00:34:45,516 --> 00:34:47,516
[Michael] While Natalia
was at the state
mental hospital,
624
00:34:47,620 --> 00:34:52,757
Kristine and I had gotten
phone calls from Larue Carter
after a while.
625
00:34:52,862 --> 00:34:55,241
[somber music playing]
626
00:34:57,172 --> 00:35:02,931
She is propositioning men
who are mental patients
627
00:35:03,655 --> 00:35:07,379
for sexual activity,
628
00:35:07,482 --> 00:35:11,137
and it's disturbing them
and she can't be here.
629
00:35:11,241 --> 00:35:12,827
Those are the exact words.
630
00:35:26,586 --> 00:35:27,448
What?
631
00:35:30,103 --> 00:35:32,241
I don't even remember
none of that.
632
00:35:32,344 --> 00:35:36,034
Like, I was a kid in an adult
section of a hospital.
633
00:35:37,379 --> 00:35:39,413
And...
634
00:35:39,517 --> 00:35:42,724
Like, I, I don't even remember
really being around
guys like that.
635
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,827
So I don't know
where all of this
is coming from.
636
00:35:49,448 --> 00:35:52,448
I don't ever remember talking
about having a boyfriend
or wanting a boyfriend.
637
00:35:53,068 --> 00:35:55,862
[intense music playing]
638
00:35:55,965 --> 00:35:59,413
Natalia told me
that she was
in a mental hospital.
639
00:35:59,517 --> 00:36:03,620
And they told her
after a full evaluation,
640
00:36:03,724 --> 00:36:06,206
the doctors came and said
they couldn't find
nothing wrong with her.
641
00:36:06,793 --> 00:36:08,034
She was a normal child.
642
00:36:09,517 --> 00:36:13,034
[Cynthia] But as far as
acting out in other ways?
643
00:36:13,137 --> 00:36:15,241
She could have been acting out
for attention.
644
00:36:15,344 --> 00:36:17,137
I mean, she was a child.
645
00:36:17,241 --> 00:36:20,482
She probably wanted
to get attention
however she could.
646
00:36:20,586 --> 00:36:22,965
You know, she could have been
acting out to make friends.
647
00:36:23,068 --> 00:36:26,896
She could have been acting out
to gets some adults
that seen her
648
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,068
to realize, "Hey,
I'm struggling here.
649
00:36:29,172 --> 00:36:31,206
Like, I don't know
what to do on my own."
650
00:36:33,344 --> 00:36:38,482
It's like, if there is
a possibility that I did say
sexual comments,
651
00:36:38,586 --> 00:36:41,000
I probably heard that
from somebody.
652
00:36:41,103 --> 00:36:44,620
'Cause I was really little
and, like, I was
at that stage where, like,
653
00:36:44,724 --> 00:36:46,931
not understanding what it is,
but I wanna say it
654
00:36:47,034 --> 00:36:50,206
because I heard somebody else
say it so I'm thinking,
it's okay to say it.
655
00:36:50,310 --> 00:36:52,827
[foreboding music playing]
656
00:36:53,689 --> 00:36:55,724
The truth is that,
657
00:36:55,827 --> 00:37:00,931
I feel like I got exposed
to sexual stuff
at a really young age.
658
00:37:01,793 --> 00:37:04,517
[intense music playing]
659
00:37:04,620 --> 00:37:08,689
In fact, like, Kristine tried
to set me up on a date
660
00:37:08,793 --> 00:37:10,862
at seven years old
with a grown man.
661
00:37:12,241 --> 00:37:13,758
Who knows what
could have happened?
662
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:18,586
[upbeat music playing]
663
00:37:26,172 --> 00:37:29,586
Stuff happened while I was
in that Westfield apartment.
664
00:37:31,275 --> 00:37:34,172
I got exposed
to sexual stuff.
665
00:37:36,137 --> 00:37:37,586
I...
666
00:37:37,689 --> 00:37:40,344
[suspenseful music playing]
667
00:37:43,827 --> 00:37:46,413
Kristine never taught me
how to take care of myself.
668
00:37:48,241 --> 00:37:53,724
Kristine never taught me
anything about
stranger danger or...
669
00:37:53,827 --> 00:37:55,172
She told me she did.
670
00:38:01,068 --> 00:38:02,931
Did you know that she was
putting make-up on me?
671
00:38:06,620 --> 00:38:08,896
[Natalia] One day,
I was playing in my room.
672
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,482
[suspenseful music playing]
673
00:38:12,586 --> 00:38:16,137
Kristine came in and she just
sat me down on the floor
in the kitchen
674
00:38:16,241 --> 00:38:18,068
and she cut my hair.
675
00:38:18,172 --> 00:38:21,482
[suspenseful music playing]
676
00:38:21,586 --> 00:38:24,482
She cut it off all the way
to, like, right here.
677
00:38:24,586 --> 00:38:26,206
Like, shoulder-length.
678
00:38:28,172 --> 00:38:31,172
And then, I remember
Kristine did my make-up.
679
00:38:35,068 --> 00:38:37,724
Did you know that she
was trying to make me
look like an adult?
680
00:38:38,862 --> 00:38:40,241
[exhales]
681
00:38:42,758 --> 00:38:47,689
She can create drama
out of the most innocent
or benign situation.
682
00:38:47,793 --> 00:38:50,620
Such as a mother
dressing up her daughter.
683
00:38:50,724 --> 00:38:54,517
You have Kristine Barnett
doting over her only
female child.
684
00:38:55,517 --> 00:39:01,689
If I factor in
the personality of Natalia,
685
00:39:01,793 --> 00:39:05,172
It's easy for me to see
how she can turn
something so innocent
686
00:39:05,275 --> 00:39:07,379
into something
more nefarious.
687
00:39:08,931 --> 00:39:10,482
[Natalia] That's crazy.
688
00:39:11,103 --> 00:39:13,068
Just seeing this?
689
00:39:13,172 --> 00:39:16,896
This is crazy. This is,
like, too much.
690
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,310
[stammers] I'm seven
years old, I shouldn't even
have make-up on.
691
00:39:22,275 --> 00:39:24,241
When she did the make-up,
692
00:39:24,344 --> 00:39:26,413
she literally told me,
693
00:39:27,448 --> 00:39:29,068
"This is what an adult
looks like.
694
00:39:29,172 --> 00:39:31,448
When a kid does their make-up,
they look like a clown."
695
00:39:38,310 --> 00:39:42,206
Did you know that she was
sending them to a guy, trying
to get me put me on a date?
696
00:39:42,310 --> 00:39:43,620
No.
697
00:39:45,103 --> 00:39:47,620
I just found that out
three or four weeks ago.
698
00:39:50,862 --> 00:39:55,862
It sounds like Kristine maybe,
you know, wanting to take
pictures of her to send
699
00:39:55,965 --> 00:39:58,862
to Freddie Gill or whoever
she was trying to
700
00:39:58,965 --> 00:40:00,827
set up Natalia
on a date with.
701
00:40:00,931 --> 00:40:05,344
Thank God
Freddie told Kristine,
"Absolutely, no way!"
702
00:40:05,448 --> 00:40:09,034
Kristine tried to set me up
with a guy when I was
seven years old.
703
00:40:09,137 --> 00:40:11,000
With a grown man.
704
00:40:11,896 --> 00:40:14,206
What if the guy
raped me?
705
00:40:14,310 --> 00:40:17,482
Like, he could have did
anything. He could have
kidnapped me.
706
00:40:17,586 --> 00:40:19,103
He could have
murdered me.
707
00:40:19,793 --> 00:40:22,344
And, when she did that,
708
00:40:22,448 --> 00:40:24,517
you were in the Westfield
apartment, right?
709
00:40:24,620 --> 00:40:25,965
No, I was still
in the house.
710
00:40:26,068 --> 00:40:27,965
You were still in the house?
Holy [bleep]!
711
00:40:30,137 --> 00:40:32,517
No, I didn't know that.
712
00:40:32,620 --> 00:40:36,137
Did you ever have to speak
to any of these people or meet
any of these people?
713
00:40:36,241 --> 00:40:39,275
No. I don't remember
talking to anybody.
714
00:40:39,379 --> 00:40:42,655
I didn't even know she was
doing that until I found out
when I was...
715
00:40:44,344 --> 00:40:46,758
2019 maybe?
716
00:40:46,862 --> 00:40:50,034
[Beth] Michael doesn't know
anything about this,
apparently.
717
00:40:50,758 --> 00:40:52,724
That may be true.
718
00:40:52,827 --> 00:40:55,758
I do believe that
there are things that
went on in that house
719
00:40:55,862 --> 00:40:58,413
between Kristine and Natalia
that Michael's unaware of.
720
00:41:01,034 --> 00:41:03,103
I'm sorry
that was your experience.
721
00:41:05,344 --> 00:41:07,586
[Beth] So it's possible
he didn't know,
722
00:41:07,689 --> 00:41:09,310
and that he's hearing it
for the first time
723
00:41:09,413 --> 00:41:12,310
'cause he seems
pretty sincere and apologetic.
724
00:41:12,413 --> 00:41:14,827
I'm sorry that they
didn't have the wherewithal
725
00:41:14,931 --> 00:41:17,655
to press the right charges
in the right place.
726
00:41:17,758 --> 00:41:20,344
Like, they could still get her
right now if they wanted to.
727
00:41:21,241 --> 00:41:23,448
Then again,
he is a good salesman.
728
00:41:25,068 --> 00:41:28,172
Michael is an accomplice
to the monster.
729
00:41:28,275 --> 00:41:31,034
Because he went along
with everything
that Kristine said.
730
00:41:31,137 --> 00:41:33,206
I've had nightmares.
731
00:41:34,034 --> 00:41:36,379
I've cried myself to sleep.
732
00:41:37,655 --> 00:41:39,482
[sobbing] For years after.
733
00:41:40,310 --> 00:41:41,620
[sobs]
734
00:41:42,034 --> 00:41:43,448
[cries]
735
00:41:44,551 --> 00:41:46,586
You know what you
did was wrong,
736
00:41:46,689 --> 00:41:48,758
but you're trying to keep it
under wraps.
737
00:41:48,862 --> 00:41:50,655
[intense music playing]
738
00:41:50,758 --> 00:41:53,758
He still let me be alone
with Kristine.
739
00:41:53,862 --> 00:41:57,965
Everything that Kristine
told him, he told the world
like he was there.
740
00:41:58,068 --> 00:41:59,620
She'd been diagnosed
a sociopath.
741
00:41:59,724 --> 00:42:01,275
Con artist, grown up.
742
00:42:01,379 --> 00:42:02,862
She was gonna
kill everybody.
743
00:42:02,965 --> 00:42:04,448
[Natalia] But now he's
switching up, saying,
744
00:42:04,551 --> 00:42:07,034
"I don't even remember what...
I don't know what happened."
745
00:42:07,137 --> 00:42:12,344
I have a lot of suspicions
that I can't prove,
but I'm sure are there.
746
00:42:12,448 --> 00:42:13,896
I lived through it.
747
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,965
Every time I talk about it,
I live through it.
748
00:42:17,068 --> 00:42:19,206
You sound guilty with that.
749
00:42:19,310 --> 00:42:22,413
[intense music playing]
59956
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