All language subtitles for 63.Up.Part.3.1080p.HDTV.H264-CBFM_Track03

MICHAEL APTED: In 1964,

Granada Television brought together
a group of seven-year-olds.

When I grow up I want
to be an astronaut.

We have followed their lives
every seven years.

I don't wanna keep still,

'cause life, you know,
don't wait for nobody.

They talked about their dreams...

If I could have
two girls and two boys...

..their ambitions...

I'd quite like to go into politics.

..and their fears for the future.

Life is what happens while you're
waiting for something else.

I don't think life is there
to be regretted.

You've got to make the most of it
while you've got it.

That's how you become
the person you are.

MAN: It's a picture
of how any person, how they change.

MAN 2: Give me a child
until he is seven,

and I will give you the man.

We first met Paul

at a children's home
in West London...

..along with Symon.

Before I'm old enough to get a job,

I'll just walk around
and see what I can find.

They say,
"Where's your father, then?

"You know, when your mum's out
at work instead of your father?"

And I just tell them,
"I ain't got one."

When Paul left the children's home,
he moved to Australia.

Were you happy
at the children's home in England?

We didn't mind that, really,

'cause we didn't know
what was going on

'cause we were a bit young then.

When I was born, you know,
an illegitimate child,

you know, that's something
that's only whispered about.

People, you know, felt strongly
about it in those days,

but nowadays it's...

..it's not a serious matter.

The serious point
is whether you stay with somebody

or you leave them.

My father got remarried.

Um...

And how do you get on
with your stepmum?

Pretty well, but,
like I said before,

I mean, I'm just not close.

I'm not really close
to my father either.

I was going to be a policeman,

but I thought
how hard it would be to join in.

I was going to be a Phys Ed teacher,
but one of the teachers told me

that you had to get up
into university.

As a young man, Paul spent many years
in the building trade,

and then moved on into factory work.

Was going to be a film star but...

..now I'm going to be
an electrical engineer,

which is more to reality, really.

By 21, Symon was working
in the freezer room

of Wall's sausages in London.

I know I can't stay
at Wall's forever.

I mean, it's just not me.

I couldn't stay there for that long,

my mind would go dead.

Do you never feel you should be
doing better jobs than these?

Aren't you worth more than this?

No, I haven't really.

I suppose I just like hard work,
I don't know.

Not really interested
in moving up the scale.

Why?

I don't need the hassle
of being in charge,

manager or whatever.

Tell me, do you have any girlfriends?

Well, not many.

What do you think about girls?

Not much.

Erm, since 21...

..I've got married,

had a couple of kids and, um...

By 28, he had married Yvonne,
and they had five children.

What would you like to give
your children that you never had?

They've got everything that...

They've even got what I never had.

So...

Which is what?
A father, innit.

By 35, they were divorced.

All I want out of life
is to be happy,

and when I say happy, I want
to be happily married as well.

What was it
that you fell in love with?

What is it about him?

WOMAN: His helplessness, I suppose.
(SCOFFS)

It was the motherly instinct in me
to pick him up and cuddle him.

And he's also very good-looking,
I think,

but he doesn't agree with me.

In the summer, he's got
this cute little bum in shorts.

In their twenties,
Paul and Sue sold up,

bought an old van,
and travelled across Australia.

I think it brought us
closer together because, you know,

we really got to know each other
and relied on each other so much.

I'd never been
so relaxed in my life.

I felt a lot more confident
in myself.

By the time they were 28,
Paul and Sue had two children -

Katie and Robert.

(SPORTS COMMENTARY ON TV)

Katie did well at school
and went on to university,

the first person in her entire family
ever to do so.

Robert trained as a car mechanic.

He met Stacey
when they were teenagers,

and they now have five children.

By the time he was 42,
Symon had married Viennetta.

WOMAN: We used to go out
when we were younger.

We met in the laundrette. (LAUGHS)
Once a week.

Once a week in the laundrette.

Viennetta already had a daughter,
Miriam,

and she and Symon had a son, Daniel.

WOMAN: Obviously, when children
come into foster care,

family and friends are
involved as well,

and we have to ensure
that the children...

By 49, Symon and Viennetta had
decided to train as foster-parents.

Went to boarding school
when I was young,

and I always felt
that that was regimental.

They didn't allow for personal care,
for loving from the adult carers,

so I wanted to do something
like that for myself,

you know, in my own home.

You know why Uncle Symon
looks younger?

'Cause he's so laid-back.

When we first started fostering,
we didn't even realise

that you actually got a payment
for doing it.

(CHATTER INDISTINCTLY)

We just did it
because we wanted to help.

About four years ago, we were told
that we'd looked after 130-odd kids.

When you're ready,
you might as well...

It's a very hard thing,

but it's also magnificently easy
when it goes well.

I've still got five children.

They haven't really taken
the break-up

of my first marriage too well.

I've got, still,
to get to grips with that

and get to them
and make them understand

that Daddy is still Daddy.

(MC TALKS EXCITEDLY)

Last year, Symon invited
his entire family

to celebrate Viennetta's birthday.

They're all together now.

They've come round,
and they've seen

that Dad is still Dad,
whatever's happened.

Time is the healer, isn't it?

You rush and push and pull.

You might be able to do that
with a parcel,

but you can't do that with a person.

It made me feel 110%.

Everybody together
and everybody here for me.

It was...
It was nice.

Yeah, it was beautiful.
It was nice.

So what's happened in the last
seven years since we were here?

Grandchildren, lots of them.

So how many have you got now?

Got 10 now.

It's lovely. It just tires me out.

I haven't got the energy...

..all the time.

Run! Run!

What's happened in the family
in the last seven years?

So, another grandchild - Brody.

So there's six.

PAUL: Talk nicely to him.
Hey, Benny. Benny!

Katie's a school teacher.

She has a man in her life now.

A very nice chap,
which we're pleased about.

Hopefully more grandchildren.
(THEY LAUGH)

No pressure.

Look, they do look very happy
in all that mud, don't they, Shane?

The fact we've been married
for 40 years

is just really a fluke, really.

You know, we might...

No, but what I mean is
we've tried hard,

and that's part of the success,

but you don't know
when you're gonna get married

that it's gonna succeed and...

Absolutely.
..and go for 40 years.

You have no idea.

SYMON: And you can see
Windsor Castle from their house.

We don't actually see each other...

Over the years, Paul and Sue have
met up with Symon and Viennetta

when visiting family in England.

SUE: Come on,
let me get you organised.

But now, for the first time,

Symon and Viennetta have
come to Australia.

Hello!

We got on really well
when we visited them in England.

I think Symon and Paul
are very similar.

Symon's very creative, sort of,

artistic, a beautiful person
to be around,

and Viennetta, her and I are
just two peas out of the same pod.

(LAUGHS)

I just think it's a wonderful thing
to be able to invite them,

and they be able to come out here,

'cause it's not like it's
just across the road,

it's a big trip.

And they're going to share Christmas
with us and our family.

Would your life have
been totally different

if you'd had the chance
that Paul had - to come to Australia?

For me, then, it probably
would've been better.

To actually try
and figure it out now -

would it have been better?

I wouldn't want to say

because your life is as it is,
and not as it could be.

Yeah.

I don't like
the big boys hitting us,

and the prefects sending us out
for nothing.

I remember this path,
but I've never walked...

At 21, when Paul was in London,

we decided to take him and Symon
back to the children's home.

Why were you there?

I believe it was
a divorce custody dispute.

Most children at that age,

if they were taken away
from their parents,

they wouldn't be overly happy.

No.

Did you get to see
much of your parents?

I can only vaguely remember
my dad coming...

..to visit every now and then.

I was there for about six years,

and the only thing I really,
really missed was my mum.

She was everything to me,
and she wasn't there.

You remember the tiles?

She couldn't cope with the situation
of having to look for me,

and she didn't have a place
of her own at the time.

Remember Midgely?
He was a real bastard.

You felt that you were kept
in order all the time.

He made me clean all the...

Kids did get the cane if they were
caught doing anything wrong.

So did you get caned?

Not that I can remember.

I was a very, very good boy.

(THEY LAUGH)

He was the tailor. I remember him.

I didn't get a lot of cuddles.

And it affects you -
the way you treat your kids -

inasmuch as you try to do it more,

but you probably don't do it
as much as some other people do.

I wanted to love my children,

but I used to try to give them
discipline instead.

Instead of just giving the little
hugs and stuff they needed,

that I knew they needed,
because I needed it.

That's where the headmaster's son
used to shoot the squirrels
off the trees.

I definitely felt insecure,
I can still remember that.

I didn't feel insecure

when I was being told, "Be here,
be there, do this, do that."

Yeah.

Where I felt insecure
was outside of all of that.

You can't believe,
after so many years,

that things have really not changed
all that much, you know.

Paul took Symon
to the children's home

where he lived
when he first arrived in Australia.

The track's about the same!
(CHUCKLES)

So how old were you
when you first came here?

I was somewhere between seven
and eight years of age, I'd say.

We pretty much landed in Australia,

wasn't all that long
before my father arranged

for us to come up here and live.

And how was it to be here?

The best childhood memories I've got
is of being up here.

Why didn't he take you home
to live with the family?

Well, I think Dad was
a coat and dress designer,

and they were also trying
to set a house up,

and that's just the way
that they chose to do it.

(SPEAK INDISTINCTLY)

My dad, despite what other members
of the family might...

He was a good man,
he was a kind man.

He was strict, but he was kind.
(LAUGHS)

You know, I was always frightened
of everything as a young child,

and I think it, you know,
slowly but surely,

it just slowly
brought me out of myself.

Like Paul, I was very shy
when I was young,

and I think this place would
give you the confidence

to do things for yourself.

I think, at the moment,

my main weakness is
I don't really take a grip of life.

I know if I ever wanted to get on,
I could do it.

I think what it is really, I'm just
waiting for an excuse to use it.

There's one just there.

Both the wives say
that you both lack confidence.

The lack of confidence,
you sort of second-guess yourself

or question yourself all the time.

Just like just now,

I noticed we both looked
at each other

because we both knew
exactly what we were going to say,

but we waited.

(LAUGHS) Yeah.
We waited for the other one
to say it, yeah.

What's been the saddest,

toughest time for you
in your life so far?

I think early years -

going away from the home,
and going to the boarding school,

and living away from home here
as well.

Here's Grandad.
Hey!

My father died
approximately four years ago.

That was very sad.

He was the one constant in my life.

(VOICE QUIVERS) Sorry.

Even though I knew
my mum wasn't well at all,

and she was probably dying,

I still felt she'd be there forever.

When she actually died,

there were so many things
that I'd never asked.

Why did you not marry Dad
or stay with him?

So, there were so many things
that were left unsaid.

Say you had a wife,

like, say you had to eat
what they cooked you,

and say I don't like greens,
well, I don't.

One of the fundamental premises
of this series of films is

you can see the man
in the seven-year-old child.

Basically what you see
is a seven-year-old,

shy, not very confident,
worried about everything.

That's what I was like then,

and, to a great degree,
still like that.

I'm not making light
of what I have achieved but,

you know, I wasn't going to make
any wonderful achievements.

I think that was pretty obvious
I was going to be just a worker.

Alright, Paul, how are you?

SUE: OK, everybody, tuck is ready!
Anyone for some food?

Do you have any regrets?

There's just no place
for regrets in this world.

I mean, I've been lucky.

Meeting Susan, I've been with her
longer than I was with my dad.

And she's been an unbelievable
influence on my life.

Getting me to see the positive side
of things, rather than the negative.

Maybe one regret is - probably
would've liked more children.

I feel OK just
getting on with life,

just sort of keeping up.

But I know, if I really wanted to,
I could get on.

And the brother had...

The sooner you understand
who you are,

the sooner you understand
what you can do.

It's taken me virtually 60 years
to understand who I am.

When I leave this school,
I'm going to Colet Court.

And then I will be going
to Westminster Boarding School,

if I pass the exam.

And then we think I'm going to, um,
Cambridge and Trinity Hall.

John went to Westminster,

then on to read Law
at Christ Church, Oxford.

I do believe parents have a right
to educate their children

as they think fit.

I think someone who works
on assembly lines

in some of these car factories,
earning a huge wage,

could well afford to send
their children to private school

if they wanted to.

At 21, we asked him
what career he would pursue.

Might be at the bar.

Doing what?

Perhaps chancery practice.

I now have a career.
I'm a barrister.

Um...

Other than that, life chugs along
in varying degrees.

Well, in a sense, not very much
has changed in my career

over the last 14 years.

I'm still a barrister,
I still wear a curly white wig.

Um, the only visible difference,
I suppose,

is I wear a silk gown
because I'm now a QC.

What's changed in your life
since we last talked?

Seven years older,
seven years fatter,

a bit less hair.

I mean, nothing much, really.

I mean, on a more serious level,
I mean, I'm still...

..a barrister, a QC.

When boys go round with girls,

they don't pay attention
to what they're doing.

GIRL: Yes, they do!

My grandmother had an accident

because a boyfriend was kissing
her...his girlfriend in the street.

By 35, John had married Claire,

the daughter of a former ambassador
to Bulgaria.

WOMAN: It is coincidental
that we met, but it's obvious

that the Balkan connection
was a strong, mutual interest.

It is a great pleasure
to welcome you all here tonight

on behalf of Friends of Bulgaria.

My mother, in fact,
is from Bulgaria,

and that explains why, for me,

Bulgaria is an especially
important place.

The hounds are over there, I think.

I think the more you've had
out of the country,

the more privileges
you're born with,

the greater your duty is.

I still feel,
as I did when I was 21,

that it's important for people
who have had advantages

to try and put as much back

and to help others less fortunate
than themselves if they can.

Recently, I think this charity,
Friends of Bulgaria,

is something
that's very important in my life.

JOHN AT 63: When we first came,
the country really was on its knees.

I remember we were taking
basic things like anaesthetics

round to hospitals,

and blood supplies,
and all of that's changed.

Bulgaria's been in the EU now
since, I think, about 2006,

and it's slowly catching up.

(CHURCH BELLS RING OUT)

We're in Veliko Tarnovo,

which is the medieval capital
of Bulgaria.

And Friends of Bulgaria,

the charity
of which I'm now chairman,

we have various projects,

and we're here to see
how those projects are going along.

This plaque here commemorates
my great-grandfather

who's sitting in the front row.

By then, he'd already been a leader

of the revolution
against the Turks in Plovdiv,

and, actually, he'd been condemned
to death because he was captured.

He also did an awful lot
for charity.

I'm sure he keeps me up to my mark.

I do feel I'd like
to continue the tradition

of doing good things
to help people here,

even if I don't quite have
his means,

personally,
it's on a more modest scale.

I feel I could go on forever,
but the trouble is

many of my solicitor clients are
themselves retiring.

And, you know, the worry is
we'll all end up with no clients.

So, no clients, no cases.

So, as I understand it,
we're going to meet three of the...

So what would you do
when it comes time to retire?

I won't be bored. I love travel.

We're still riding, still enjoying
the English countryside.

I did have a terrible fall
from a horse about two years ago,

and so that was dicing with death.

I had a brain haemorrhage,
and that was definitely un-funny.

I can still play the piano a bit.

I'm not as good as I used to be.

A very nonchalant little theme,

you know, butter wouldn't melt
in its mouth.

Whether it's old age and arthritis,

or whether it's falling off horses
too many times, I don't know,

but, I mean, I don't feel I've got
quite the dexterity in my fingers.

Certainly, I can never tell
the difference between you playing

and the CD playing
when I'm out of the room.

WOMAN: Is he good?
Yeah, very good, very good.

Well, she's very diplomatic.
No, no, it's true.

Are you ambitious?
Yes.

What for?

Fame...

..and power.

What sort of power?

Political power.

I'd quite like to go into politics

but, I mean,
that's easier said than done.

I don't know why I felt like that,
but I did.

Maybe it's because
all the Bulgarian ancestors

were all prime ministers
and things like that.

But, I mean, the truth is, I've been
a big disappointment to myself

because, um,

I've decided not to throw my hat
into the ring for politics,

and I don't have any regrets,
if the truth be told.

How do you think England will change
over the next few years?

Not very much.

England is too English,
if you see what I mean.

People who have things
going well for them,

really ought to stay and, sort of,
help the country out when,

you know,
things aren't going very well.

I don't believe in all this
pulling one's money out.

Where do you stand on Brexit?

I don't mind saying I voted Remain.

I can't say I'm a fantastically
enthusiastic European,

wearing my English hat,

but on the other hand,

I thought it was
a leap into the dark

that we didn't need to take.

(SPEAKS BULGARIAN)

I blame quite a few politicians.

I suppose I blame David Cameron

because I think the decision
to hold a referendum was mistaken.

It's much too complicated a question

to submit to a simple
yes or no answer.

(SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY)

I think it's not a bad idea to pay
for schools

because, if we didn't, schools would
be so nasty and crowded.

JOHN AT 63: The world now is
very different

from what it was when we were seven.

I think there were inequalities
in British society at that stage,

which, I must say,
I don't see anymore.

JOHN AT 21: Something I did
slightly object to in the program,

is that we were shown
at the age of seven outlining,

sort of, the academic sort of career

that most of us did,
in fact, pursue.

You know, it was presented
as if it was just, you know,

part of some
indestructible birth right

that we went to all these places,
and I thought that was unfair.

It didn't show us having to do
beastly jobs in the holidays.

If you're talking
about people from my background,

I think life is probably
more difficult for them

because there's more competition.

So many more people go
to university.

No-one cares at all
what background people go to.

People recruit to get
the best people for the job

that they have to offer.

Shaun McAnessy got
three minuses in a day.

He's a pest.

JOHN AT 35: It has to be said
that I bitterly regret

that the headmaster of the school
where I was when I was seven

pushed me forward for this series
because, every seven years,

a little pill of poison is
injected into...

WOMAN: I know.
Well, that's...
Well, it's the truth.

I'm much more down-to-earth
as a person

than I might've ended up
when I was seven.

And that was probably because,
you know,

I did a year and more in the army
before going up to Oxford.

And, you know,
there were various things

that introduced me
to the real world,

whereas I could've been stuck
in an ivory tower.

What viewers were never told is

that my father died
when I was age nine,

leaving my mother

in very uncomfortable
financial circumstances.

She had to go out to work
to see us through school,

and that I got a scholarship
to Oxford.

You know, I don't regard myself
as particularly typical

of the type that I was,
no doubt, selected to represent.

I mean, apart from anything else,
I'm three-quarters foreign,

which is an odd beginning

for what one of the papers described
after 21 as

"the archetypal Tory squire."

What's the most important thing
in your life?

My wife, my family
and friends, my homes.

If I'm allowed a fourth,
I'd say my animals. (LAUGHS)

How do you think you've changed
since you were seven?

Well, I mean, one grows so slowly
that one never notices.

Any regrets about decisions
you've made in your life?

JOHN AT 63: No, I can't say that.

But it's not really my character.

I always try and make
the best of everything,

even if it's not
the best situation you're in.

(PEOPLE SING)

Tell me, do you have
any boyfriends, Suzy?

Yes, but he lives up in Scotland.

And I think he's 13.

Have you got any boyfriends, Suzy?

What is your attitude
towards marriage?

Well, I don't know, I mean,
I haven't given it a lot of thought

'cause I'm very, very cynical
about it.

Obviously, any child going through
their parents splitting up age 14,

you're at a very vulnerable age,
and it does cut you up.

But there's no point them staying
together for me 'cause it was worse.

I mean, the rows... And it's worse.

When I last saw you at 21,
you were nervous,

you were chain-smoking,
you were uptight,

and now you seem happy.

What's happened to you
over these last seven years?

I suppose Rupert.

I'll give you some credit.

I'm now chain-smoking. (LAUGHS)

I'm not very children-minded
at the moment,

I don't know if I ever will be.

What do you think about them?
Well, I don't like babies. (LAUGHS)

What was the biggest shocks to you

when you suddenly were confronted
with a small baby?

Panic set in, I think,

that I wasn't going
to be able to cope.

We were lucky.

We had a very good family unit
with them growing up.

And that meant an awful lot to me

that I was able to do that for them

'cause I never had it for myself.

What do you think
about making this program?

I think it's just ridiculous.
I don't see any point doing it.

There's a lot of baggage that gets
stirred up every seven years for me

that I find quite...

..that I find very hard
to deal with.

(LAUGHS) I don't know what happened.

I was quite adamant
I wasn't going to do it.

And then...

I don't know, I suppose I have this
ridiculous sense of loyalty to it,

even though I hate it.

Hello!

Suzy decided not to take part
in 63 Up.

BOY: When I grow up,
I want to be an astronaut,

but if I can't be an astronaut,
I think I'll be a coach driver.

This is probably linked up
with the fact now

that I want to travel,
my thoughts haven't really changed.

I definitely wouldn't like
to be a coach driver now.

Watch this.

Neil grew up in a Liverpool suburb
with his friend Peter,

and had dreams of going to Oxford,

but didn't get in.

Instead, he went
to Aberdeen University,

but dropped out after the first term.

At 21, Neil was working
on a building site

and living in a squat.

I would like to be somebody
in a position of importance.

I've always thought this.

But I don't think
I'm the right sort of person

to carry the responsibility
for whatever it is.

I always thought,
"Well, I'd love to be..."

(LAUGHS)

.."possibly even love to be
in politics or something like this."

At 28, we found Neil homeless,

wandering around
the West Coast of Scotland.

NEIL AT 28:
If the money runs out, well,

then, for a few days
there's nowhere to go to.

That's all you can do.

I simply have to find
the warmest shed I can find.

(SHEEP BLEAT)

At 35, he was living
in a council estate

on the most northerly part
of Britain -

the Shetland Islands.

And what would you like to be doing,
say, in seven years?

I can think of all kinds of things
that I'd like to be doing.

The real question is what am I...?

What am I likely to be doing?

What are you likely to be doing?

(SCOFFS) That's a horrible question.

Um, I tend to think
the most likely answer is

that I'll be wandering homeless
round the streets of London.

Can I just point out some
of the considerable disadvantages?

Um, first of all,
they are geographically...

At 42, Neil had moved to London,

and was a Liberal Democrat
on Hackney Council.

When I was in Shetland,
I felt very strongly

that I should become involved
in politics,

simply because I felt
I was not achieving anything

in the ways I really wanted to.

By 49, Neil had left London,

moved to Cumbria
in the North West of England

and was a Liberal Democrat member
of his local district council.

MAN: Neil Hughes is
the Liberal Democrat candidate.

I and the Liberal Democrats
want to see a just and fair society

in which everyone...

NEIL AT 56: In 2006, I was invited
to go to Australia to give a talk.

And the chap
who introduced me said,

"Neil is clearly such
a profoundly motivated politician

"that we can all expect to see him

"as Prime Minister
of the United Kingdom."

Now, this wasn't a joke,
I assure you,

he said this with absolute serious.

Now, it was ludicrous,

but this is how wildly skewed
the perceptions have become.

I mean, do you think I really
would've been invited to Australia

if they were aware
that I was someone

who lives
on a few quid a week benefit

and has as much chance of changing
the future of the United Kingdom

as someone who's serving
a lifetime jail sentence?

NEIL AT 63: I'm not, for an instant,
under the impression

that politics was always
completely moral and so on.

Obviously,
there've always been issues.

But it's very sad
that so few people now feel

that politics has
any answers for them.

They don't see anything in any
of the political affiliations.

Those who protest
outside abortion clinics,

if they do so peacefully,
are actually protesting...

As long as I can still remember
what I'm going to say

when I stand up in council,
which isn't guaranteed,

then I'll keep doing it for a bit.

Um, so you're...

Where do you stand on Brexit?

It's quite
an unbelievable occurrence.

It's as if you're asking everybody
in Britain to take poison

and say this, they thought,
was for their good health.

So, cheers.

The vote wasn't a vote
to leave the European Union,

it was a vote against all
politicians, or whatever parties,

and against the deteriorating
society we live in.

I don't think, erm, I was really
taught any sort of policy of living

at all by my parents.

This is probably
the biggest mistake -

that I was just left
to fend for myself

in a world which they seemed
clearly oblivious of.

I mean, what's your feeling
towards your parents,

both of whom, I know,
have passed away?

It's not resentment.

Er, they did their very best.

I don't say this cruelly -

the problem
was in their own personalities,

which caused me unending difficulty.

My father, very serious,
very secretive,

he could be very harsh
in the punishments he gave out.

My mother, completely different.

Compl... Utterly superficial.

A genuine lover of the arts

but as much of a dilettante
as you could possibly imagine.

So, she knew
a little about everything,

but not a great deal about...

..about very much.

And did you ever have it out
with your father?

Oh, many arguments, yeah.

More often than not,
my father would just sit in silence.

Erm, and my mother would talk,
but it was mostly to herself.

When I get married,
I don't want to have any children,

because they are always
doing naughty things

and making the whole house untidy.

Children inherit something
from their parents,

and even if my wife
were the most, um, high-spirited

and ordinary and normal of people,

the child would still stand a very
fair chance of being not totally,

uh, full of happiness

because of what he or she will
have inherited from me.

What's happened in your life
in the last seven years?

Oh, that takes us back
to when I met my current wife,

um, and, um,

er, and for four or more years
of happy marriage.

And then, uh, an unfortunate series
of occurrences, I suppose,

which means we don't see each other
very often now.

How did you two meet?

Well, I was performing
in the village pantomime,

and she came along and watched it.

We courted in the same way that
any two 20-year-olds would court.

We walked along the River Tees
at Stockton.

There was a lovely restaurant
down there

that, um, we used to eat in.

We did a lot
of lovely things together.

I don't for a minute
regret that partnership.

I'm just sorry that, for reasons
I will never fully understand,

it's...it's got to where it is.

My tendency to get in low moods
was not helpful to her.

I quite understand that,

although she was well aware of that
when we got married.

I made some very strenuous attempts
to reconcile us.

We met a couple of times this year,

and I was hoping
that things might improve,

but they don't seem to have done.

But as far as I'm concerned,
there's time for her to reconsider.

Um... (TAKES DEEP BREATH)

Whether that'll happen,
I don't know.

Do you worry about your sanity?

NEIL AT 28: Other people
sometimes worry about it.

Like who?

I sometimes can be found behaving
in...in an erratic fashion.

Um, I sometimes get
very frustrated, very angry.

Are you having any medical treatment
for your mood changes?

NEIL AT 35:
No, I haven't for many years

because I wouldn't like
to be dependent

upon man-made substances
for the cure.

Do you ever think you're going mad?

Oh, I don't think it, I know it.

Er, I, um...

Well, of course, we...

We're not allowed to use
the word 'mad' but, um...

You know, I think most people are
mad here, really.

NEIL AT 63: It's incredibly
difficult to talk about.

Nobody wants to confess
that they suffer spells

of mental ill health.

Sometimes, if I'm feeling
particularly depressed

and particularly...

There are some situations in which
I do want somebody to speak to me,

but there are many situations
in which, actually,

I want to be left alone
until I'm feeling better.

And I think that this is, perhaps,
the point my wife found it

particularly hard to determine,
'cause I did say to her,

"Say something to me
if you can see I'm depressed,

"but don't keep on saying it,
just leave me alone after that."

NEIL AT 7: In the winter,
if you lived in the country, well,

it would just be all wet,

and there wouldn't be anything
for miles around.

And you get...and you get soaked
if you tried to go out,

and there's no shelter anywhere.

NEIL AT 28: I don't see any way out.

I've thought of everything
I possibly could.

It seemed to me for a long time
that getting a reliable job

and a nice place to live
would be the solution.

Well, I haven't succeeded.

Um, I can't see
any immediate future at all.

Neil still lives in Cumbria,
but he's bought a house in France.

So how long have you had the house?

Two and a half years.

My wife found it
on a website for properties.

She persuaded me that it was
the one that would suit me the best.

(LAUGHS)
And how did this come about?

After my mother died,

there was a legacy divided
between my brother and I,

and some of it was able
to be put towards this house.

So, tell me
what this place means to you.

It's just a lovely quiet place
in the country.

I've lived much of my life
in rural places in the past.

I think rural places have a lot
of shared values, wherever you go.

People tend to look after
one another better,

communication is easier,

and you'll get good local food

and country activities,
that sort of thing.

But I do miss the towns
and the cities sometimes.

Well, I miss London where I lived.

I think if you're healthy
and have good friends,

you can get on perfectly well.

But everybody would like to be rich.

NEIL AT 28: If the state didn't
give us any money,

it would probably just mean crime.

And I'm glad I don't have to steal
to keep myself alive.

How do you manage for money
these days?

NEIL AT 63: I'm lucky in that

what I earn
from being a county councillor

is sufficient
for my standard of living.

MAN: Bonjour!
Bonjour.

(SPEAKS FRENCH)

So, since I've been doing that,

I haven't needed to claim
any state benefits.

And what a great relief it was
not to have to do that.

(SPEAKS FRENCH)

So are you frightened of getting old?

I do have concerns.

I've always relied
on my body very much.

Whatever else has been going on,

I've generally been
in excellent physical health.

I never really seriously believed
when I was a teenager

that I'd be a pensioner, 'cause
it just seemed so implausible.

Despite the fact everybody
who gets the chance does grow old.

I regret that,
having reached the age I'm at,

I've had no success in the sphere
I really want to be successful in.

Being a writer by instinct is
very much about interaction

with the rest of society, which,
in my case, just hasn't happened.

It simply hasn't happened.

Yes, I'd say I believed in God.

Are you religious?

Well, I go to church
with my parents on Sundays.

I don't know, even now,
whether I do believe in God or not.

I've thought an awful lot about it,
actually, and I still don't know.

And how's he been treating you?

(LAUGHS) Well, I said
to somebody last week

that I preferred the Old Testament
to the New Testament

because in the Old Testament,
God is very unpredictable,

um, and that's, I think,
how I've seen Him in my life.

(BELLS RING)

If you haven't already been told,

the proposed pet show is,
unfortunately, cancelled due to...

NEIL AT 56: I'm a lay minister.

I'm licensed to carry out
quite a number of functions,

which includes
leading services, preaching,

taking part in the readings,

helping to distribute
the communion and so on.

In fact, I can do more or less
everything a priest can do.

In the name of the Father,
and of the Son,

and of the Holy Spirit, amen.

Are you still doing that work?

I've just recently been
re-licensed as a reader

in the Church of England.

The title 'reader' is really
that of lay preacher.

(CHURCH BELLS RING)

(CHOIR SINGS)

I wake up every day, and I don't
know what's going to happen.

I don't know where I will be
in a month's time,

six months' time, a year's time.

My Christian faith helps me.

(CHOIR SINGS)

It's made a great deal
of difference to my life.

I would say I clearly have
experienced beneficial effects,

but that's not
what religion is about.

Everybody hopes they do get
beneficial results from it,

but really it's more about
having the relationship with God,

and, in Christianity,

that's through Jesus Christ
and his teaching.

Every time this program starts,
it says,

"Give me a child until he is seven,
and I will give you the man."
Mm.

Is that true or false?
You're probably in a...

You and the audience are
probably in a better position

on the evidence
that has been presented.

We don't do much writing in school
because...

..because we think it's horrible,
and it hurts.

You get to know
different types of people,

people with different,
sort of, brains, you know.

From very, sort of, clever people
to, you know,

people who haven't got
much sense at all, really.

I wonder why I was like that.

I wonder what it was inside me
that made me like that.

And I can see, even at 14, that
I was beginning to get more subdued,

and I was putting a lot more thought
into what I was saying,

to a ridiculous degree.

I mean, you were the classic example
of it not being true.

At seven and 14,
everybody was in love with you.

You were...
And now nobody speaks to me.

Well, I'm sure they do but,

you know, your own life went
into a kind of freefall, somewhat.

NEIL AT 21: I don't know
what sort of stumbling blocks

should be put in a child's way

to get him used to living
in the outside world.

'Cause I think
maybe this is something

that was wrong in my upbringing -

I didn't have enough obstacles
to get over

to toughen myself up against.

The change of you at 14...
Mm.

..to the change of you at 21...
Yeah.

..to on the building site
was staggering.

How can you explain
that vast change in...?

I thought differently.
I had different aspirations.

I wasn't content
with a quiet, domesticised life.

I had to go out and seek adventure.

And it had its downside

because I hadn't really been well
prepared for it in my childhood.

What's the happiest time you've had?

I'm just happy
when something goes right,

and it can be something
very straightforward.

If I can get something done for
someone through my council work,

then I'm genuinely happy.

And in my church work,

if I think I'm genuinely
communicating something to people
about God,

then that delights me inside.

Peace be with you, Philip.

Before I ever met my wife, I did
have a very serious relationship

with an Australian girl,

with who I can say, truly,

the only person I was ever
really deeply in love with.

And I think she was...she felt
similarly towards me.

And she said to me eventually,
she said,

"This is an impossible situation,

"not because of what we feel
for each other,

"but because we live so far apart."

(PEOPLE SING HYMNS)

The idea of true love,
which I do think exists,

occurs so seldom, you know,

if it occurs once in somebody's
life, they're extremely lucky.

For it then to happen,

and then the potential can't be
fulfilled is heartbreaking.

(PEOPLE SING HYMNS)

Wee!

At the end of their very
special day in London,

after their trip to the zoo,
and the party,

we took our children
to an adventure playground,

where they could do
just what they liked.

Those from the children's home
set about building a house.

(MURMUR OF CHILDREN PLAYING)

There's Nicolas...

..and Tony...

..Andrew...

..John...

..and Bruce...

..Jackie and her friends.

Give me a child until he is seven,
and I will give you the man.

This has been
a glimpse of Britain's future.

Captions by Red Bee Media
(c) SBS Australia 2019