All language subtitles for The.Secrets.of.Hillsong.S01E04.2160p.WEB.h265-EDITH

(ominous orchestral music)

(ominous orchestral
music continues)

- The Book of Revelations
talked about the Second Coming.

- Jesus is coming.
(slow orchestral music)

- [Congregation] Amen.

- There are a bunch
of predictions

about what would happen
before the end of the world,

and the imminent
return of Jesus.

- [Speaker] What
will be the sign

when this is about
to take place?

- In a weird way,

a lot of them have
paralleled recent history,

natural disasters.
(wind whistles)

- [Reporter] Explosive wildfire.

- [Reporter] The worst
flooding in a decade.

- [Lech] Pandemics.

- [Reporter] 73,000 cases a day.

- [Lech] Wars, famines.

It has directly fed into a lot

of Brian Houston's prophecies.

- [Speaker] "And
before all of this,

they will lay their hands on
you and will persecute you,

and you'll be brought
before governors

and kings for my namesake."

- He told followers,
"When bad things happen,

you know that good
times are near.

The more bad that happens,

the closer we are
to deliverance."

(motorcycle engine revs)
(light orchestral music)

It's the perfect defense
for Brian Houston

because the more that
he was persecuted,

the more alluring he became
to a lot of his followers.

(group chattering)

♪ It's time to go
(congregation cheers)

- He was actually proving
what he was predicting,

which is, "They're
going to come after me.

They're going to
accuse me of things."

- I still want to
have a Pentecostal
two-step when I'm 112.

(congregation cheers)
(congregation applauds)

To me, it's not
about the politics.

It's about the position.

(audience cheers)

- It's just been a real
easy path for you, right?

I mean, it was just kind

of a tiptoe through the
tulips kind of thing.

- [Speaker] "Live, Love, Lead:
Your Best is Yet to Come!"

(Brian laughs)

- For a lot of Pentecostals,

the truest proof of
perfection is persecution.

- Persecuted, but not
forsaken. (laughs)

- As the allegations
and the stumbles

within the church became
more and more public,

Hillsong became
presciently shaped

by defensiveness more
than anything else.

- The battle lines are drawn,

and when it comes
to me and my family,

I believe the gates of Hell
will not prevail against us.

- But there's so much disarray

in the way Brian
has led the church

that Brian's unraveling was
bound to happen at some point.

Some people were bound to
start putting things together.

- Do you think you
could've avoided this

by reporting it to police?

- [Reporter] You
told your followers

that you were ready for battle.

Is that a reference
to the charges?

♪ But it's time to go

(slow music)

♪ I hope you find
some peace of mind ♪

♪ In this lifetime

♪ I hope you find
some paradise ♪

(slow music continues)

(slow music continues)

(slow music continues)

- We are going to
welcome Pastor Bobbie

as she comes to bring the
word, but before we do that,

we
are going to watch an
important announcement

from Pastor Brian and
Bobbie, and so come on,

let's together watch this
important announcement.

- Well, hi, church, it's
been an unexpected season,

and we're thankful for you all

and for the incredible
sense of community we share.

As you know, I received
unexpected news of charges

against me that allege the
concealing of information

that may have been material
to prosecute Frank Houston.

These allegations came as
a complete shock to me,

and it's my intention to
vigorously defend them.

But recently, we made a decision

that may come as a
big surprise to you,

and I wanted you to hear
it from me directly.

Hillsong's external legal
counsel gave the board advice

regarding the current
charge I'm facing,

and that it would
be best practice

for me to step aside completely

from church leadership
during the court proceedings.

So it's likely to be drawn
out and take up most of 2022.

I intend to fight the charge,

and I welcome the opportunity
to set the record straight.

It's important to
note, Bobbie intends

to stay fully engaged
in church life.

(slow orchestral music)

- [David] In most realms,

if a CEO is facing
a criminal charge,

naturally they step aside,
that's just good governance.

The confounding thing here is

that Hillsong's never been
subject to good governance.

So the fact that he
stepped aside meant

that there was absolutely
other elements at play.

- [Bobbie] Smiling,
(laughs) yeah.

- It'll be great.

Wherever you guys
are around the world,

I pray you'll have
a great Sunday.

Thank you.
- [Bobbie] Thank you.

(slow orchestral
music continues)

- One month after
Brian's announcement,

I turned on my computer
in the morning.

There was an email and
it said "Anonymous tip.

Something big is happening
in Hillsong, please call me."

(lively orchestral music)

When I called that
person, they told me

that something was going down
this week with Brian Houston.

A new problem had come to light,

and a few influential leaders
of the church were upset.

The fact that I was in touch
with a source was a big deal.

Hillsong is protecting itself
nearly all the time (laughs)

because churches like Hillsong
and people like the Houstons,

they thrive on opaque systems.

They don't want anybody really
knowing what's going on.

- Why is it hard for people

to speak out against
Hillsong Church?

Because they've signed
NDAs, (laughs) that's why.

We signed such an ironclad NDA
that kind of eliminated our-

- [Interviewer] Just gonna
put that on the record,

you do not need to
talk about that.

- It does feel,
it does feel off.

It does feel like, you know,

people should be able to
say what they need to say.

(slow orchestral music)

- God wants to be
able to trust you.

- Why does a church need an NDA?

The megachurch is a
giant corporation.

They're employing
hundreds of people.

They're taking in
millions of dollars.

They're managing
hundreds of thousands

of square feet of property.

As an organization,
you start going,

"Well, how do we
protect ourselves?"

And the models that you adopt
come from the corporate world.

You start building an HR process
like any other corporation.

You start hiring lawyers
like any other corporation,

and it just goes
on down the list.

- Some people would say that's
standard for a business.

I don't know if it's becoming
standard for churches.

- Because they've adopted
the corporate model,

they've adopted these
corporate safeguards.

Now, of course they're not
protecting trade secrets.

That's where it gets
really troubling.

What are they protecting?

(slow music)

- When you probe deeper,

you find that there has
been a building resentment

towards the old boys'
club that runs Hillsong.

That building resentment
revealed, I think,

the seeds ultimately for the
destruction of Brain Houston.

It all really kicked
off at Hillsong College.

(slow rhythmic music)

- Within the first week, when
everyone's arrived to start,

they interviewed
us individually.

- They would bring us into
a room of about 20 pastors,

and just with a single
chair facing each other.

- It was actually
kind of intimidating.

- We were being told

we were doing a working
with children's check.

We had to tell them

kind of all of our deepest,
darkest secrets, really.

Have you masturbated
in the last year?

Have you had sex
in the last year?

Have you ever hallucinated

that a demon was
standing right there,

or have you ever seen one?

- You're not meant
to get new tattoos.

You're not meant to date.

Obviously you're
not meant to be gay.

It could potentially mean

that you can't be
in college anymore.

- You learn how to keep secrets
then, because you're like,

no one in here has looked
at porn ever, really?

Okay, well, me neither.

Nobody in here thought lustfully
about a woman all month?

Me neither, 'cause otherwise,

they're going to start
looking at you like,

"This guy probably isn't
cut out for ministry."

- I thought, I want to
be a truthful person,

and nothing bad can come
from the truth, right?

Like, the truth
should set you free.

"Have you ever watched porn?"

I said, "Yes."

"Have you masturbated
in the last six months?"

I said, "Yes."

"Have you had sex
in the last year?"

I said, "Yes."

- When they would write all
that down on a little iPad,

and then immediately afterwards,

you would get your working
with children's check tag

and you have to put it on,
and if you had a red dot,

everyone who sees you in
the church knows that,

you know, you're struggling.

You were blacklisted.

- I hadn't even told anyone
that I thought I might be gay

when I came to
college, but back then,

it's like you're struggling
with homosexuality.

That language was really
important, you know?

It's not something that
you are, it's a behavior,

and therefore it's
something you can change.

- My mission was
to be a drummer.

I've been volunteering my heart
out for the past two years.

I've been working 60 hour weeks.

I've been putting my effort
in, putting my dues in.

I was shortlisted to go
to Indonesia for a tour,

and I was gonna get it.

Then a senior staff
member approached me

and asked some questions

that I've never,
ever shared with him.

Turns out they had written
in my permanent file

that I had a homosexual
experience when I was younger,

which didn't happen,
and I, (sighs)

which wasn't, it was
actually a molestation

from my old church
that I went to.

He said, "Nope, you're
not gonna be able

to come on tour or
any other tours."

And after that conversation,

I knew I will never
progress further than this.

As soon as homosexuality comes
up, they shake their head,

and, "No," like,
can't, you can't.

- I couldn't handle
the guilt of being gay.

I ended up coming to a
teacher who I trusted.

They asked me to start
coming into the offices

and to see a counselor
that they had just hired

so that I can stop having
these tendencies to love women.

Counseling with the purpose

of figuring out
why you may be gay

is now what we know as a soft
version of conversion therapy,

and it's dangerous.

- We, as college students,
were penalized for being human,

penalized for, (sighs) yeah.

(slow music continues)

(slow orchestral music)

- Having grown up in
the Hillsong movement,

I feel it is a responsibility
for Christians to stand up

and actually start speaking
out against the abuse,

so I started up a website
called ChurchWatch.

(slow orchestral
music continues)

My focus wasn't just on Frank,

it was Hillsong and
its history, as well.

I was encouraging a whole bunch
of people to work in there,

to share their stories
and information.

I was hoping because
it was so well-reasoned

that a lot of Christians

for the first time
could understand the way

that Hillsong has
conducted itself.

I had to do this anonymously
for the last 12 years.

- For so many years, we were
all isolated and disconnected,

any of us who had not had a
positive experience at Hillsong,

and it wasn't until sites
like Facebook became available

for people to
connect and realize

that they had quite similar

if not identical
experiences to each other,

and that they weren't the
problem, the system was.

- There's a Facebook page
with a lot, a lot of us,

and it actually
happened by accident.

Someone posted something
a little bit controversial

on the main Hillsong
College page,

and College immediately replied

and took the post down and
started censoring all of us.

And so someone made
a support group.

Within one week, we had
over 300, 400 members,

and people sharing their stories

and getting healing from it.

- The group on Facebook started,

and it was really when
my perspective changed.

It gave me the chance
to say my piece

and for other people
to come along and say,

"That's actually not okay.

Like, those things
are not acceptable."

- We've been
hearing about people

who've been coming out
of the Hillsong movement

who've been deeply wounded,
who've been rejected.

You're supposed to
act a certain way

and think a certain
way and filter it

through all these particular
doctrines and beliefs.

I look back now and go,

"I can't believe I put
myself through that."

- Hillsong had a real
fluency and mastery

of some of the pop culture

and social media
levers of the day.

- [Speaker] A decade later,

those same tools were used by
ex-congregants and students

to tell a very different story.

This time, they cracked
open the Hillsong facade.

- Over the years, I think
people felt much more safer

to start to criticize on
Instagram, Facebook, YouTube.

- And so you get from
the Hillsong College

and social media kind
of a Me Too movement

against Hillsong in Australia.

The whole Anna Crenshaw
Hillsong College episode

really did erupt, actually,

and blow up in the
face of Hillsong.

(heart beats)

- [Speaker] Anna Crenshaw
first told her story

to "Vanity Fair."

She was groped by a
young Hillsong staffer
named Jason Mays.

(slow ominous music)

- When she complained about it,

the whole protective mechanism
of Hillsong College swung in.

She was kind of given
a pat on the head

and told to kind of
get on with things.

- [Speaker] Hillsong
tried to make it go away,

so she went to the police

and pressed charges
against Jason Mays.

Mays wound up pleading
guilty to indecent assault,

and he received two
years' probation

and mandatory counseling.

This is one of those cases
where the law sided with Anna,

but Brian Houston and
Hillsong really came

to Jason's rescue.

- I found out from LinkedIn

that he was given a better
job during that time.

- [Speaker] Hillsong seemed
anxious to forgive and forget,

but Anna decided
to go to the press.

- You know, I felt like

I was the one who was
in trouble, not him.

- [Reporter] The Crenshaws
believe Jason Mays

was given preferential treatment

because his father is Hillsong's
head of Human Resources.

- We're not talking about
a sexual predator here.

We're talking about a young
man, young married man,

who did something stupid, got
much drunker than he should,

which is an issue we've
got to keep addressing,

and got himself in a bad
situation, that's it.

- He said that Jason was
just in a bad situation,

as if something
happened to Jason.

- These factors
of discrimination,

the lack of justice,
kind of coalesced

to produce some real
anger and a real backlash,

people who are of a generation

that is prepared not to
just go along with it,

but actually to make sure
the voice is somehow heard.

Whoever has engineered
the anonymous tips

to me really wanted to
underline the hypocrisy

of what Brian did,

that while he's telling
everybody else to be perfect,

Brian's holding this secret.

(slow music)

- I think the fact that a
church in Australia is blessed,

God's blessing us, it's growing,

it's got momentum,
it's got movement,

man, it makes some people
out there so angry.

- Towards the beginning of 2020,

before Hillsong
became the subject

of this international
media conflagration,

(slow dramatic music)

two men got together
to play golf.

(slow music)

They had both been
Hillsong congregants,

but one of them had left
the church recently.

The man who hadn't left the
church started asking his friend

what happened, what
had gone wrong?

The man revealed that his
mother had had an encounter

with Brian Houston in
a hotel room in Sydney,

and he produced the
confidentiality agreement

that his mother had signed.

After these two men
played golf, the man

who hadn't left the church
called a spiritual mentor,

concerned about what
he had just learned,

and his mentor immediately
believed the story

because his wife had in fact
had a similar experience.

About a decade earlier, Brian
had been sending text messages

to her that made her feel
increasingly uncomfortable.

She also signed a
confidentiality agreement.

- [Speaker] So you have
material that was supposed

to be sealed under an NDA
that turns into gossip

that circulates around the
church that reporters hear.

- My source said that Brian

and Hillsong had paid out
hush money to the two women

and that they had signed
nondisclosure agreements,

and that word of this had
now got to the elders,

and one elder in
particular, Dr. Gordon Lee,

was very worked up about this.

Dr. Gordon Lee was the physician

who signed off on the idea
that Frank had dementia.

- It seems at this point
Brian has become more

of a liability than an asset.

- [Alex] So for someone
like Gordon Lee,

who had really stuck by
Brian's side for a long time,

there's only so much you can do.

- Gordon Lee began
speaking to donors

about Brian Houston's
transgressions.

There was this mounting tension

that was threatening the bottom
line in a very direct way.

The source told me
that there was going

to be a major meeting, and
it was gonna be on Zoom.

They offered to get me a
recording of the entire meeting,

and that is indeed
what happened.

(slow ominous music)

- So,

I have the responsibility

of sharing with you some news.

There are two incidents
involving Pastor Brian

that as a board we
have had to deal with.

The first incident involved
Pastor Brian text messaging

with a female member of
staff along the lines of,

"If I was with you, I'd
like to give you a kiss

and a cuddle, or a hug,"
words of that nature.

That particular staff member
was obviously upset by that.

- The text messages Brian had
been sending led the woman

to resign from her job.

- This particular
staff member came back

'cause she couldn't get work.

- Hillsong leaders set
up a meeting with her,

and they asked her
what she wanted

to sort of make
all this go away,

and she said that
she just wanted

to be paid the salary she had
lost since she had resigned.

And they said, "Instead,
how about $25,000

and a confidentiality
agreement?"

- Pastor Brian said, "I
want to pay that personally

'cause I don't think it's fair
on the church to pay that."

- That secret was kept for 10
years inside the organization

and known apparently
to only two people.

- Personally I was
not aware of that,

as was the majority
of the global board.

- Spool forward to 2019,

there's Brian's 40 minutes
inside the hotel room

of a woman who was a
supporter of Hillsong.

Brian's said to be drunk.

Brian's said not to have
had his key to his room,

found himself
knocking on her door,

found himself inside there.

(slow ominous music continues)

- Brian has said there
was no sexual activity,

but he was in the
room for 40 minutes.

He doesn't have much
of a recollection
because of, he says,

the mixture of the anxiety
tablets and the alcohol.

- The woman complained,
ah, what did they do?

They returned her donation

and her conference fees,
the minimum possible.

- Again, Pastor Brian
with remorse said,

"I don't want the church
to have to pay that.

I will personally pay that."

These allegations were
treated very seriously,

and I believe, you know, real
significant steps were taken

to investigate and resolve them.

- Again, we have this
same old pattern.

We have an investigation
team appointed.

The investigation team is
meant to be independent.

When you look more
closely, you find out

that three of the four
are old mates of Brian,

and so we have a
Hillsong-curated
version of those events.

The women involved had no voice.

- The decision
was made to offer,

I suppose, what I
would call grace,

and not to cover up,
but to not expose.

- The source told me that they

and others were
determined this time

that Hillsong would not
control the narrative,

and that's why they wanted
to leak the entire audio

of the meeting to me.

- And I would hope that,

I don't know if people
are recording this,

I would hope not. (laughs)

- Within five minutes of
that meeting finished,

I had a file and was
able to write a report,

which I got out in
about 30 minutes.

It was the day that
Houston lost Hillsong.

It was also the day Hillsong
lost control of the narrative.

(slow music)

- Brian could say that
Carl's bad behavior

was just a Hillsong
New York problem.

- There were leadership issues.

- And he had no idea about
his father's transgressions.

- These allegations came
as a complete shock to me,

and it's my intention to
vigorously defend them.

- [Alex] But I really
wonder how Brian explains

away paying hush money
for his own bad behavior.

- It's a fall from grace
of biblical proportions.

Brian Houston's
45-year reign as head

of the huge Hillsong Church
has come to a shocking end.

- Brian Houston has quit
the megachurch following

an internal investigation
revealing inappropriate behavior

towards two women.

- [Reporter] The
announcement was made

at an emergency
meeting yesterday.

- Dear church, we would
like to advise you

that Pastor Brian
Houston has resigned

as global senior pastor
of Hillsong Church,

and the board has
accepted his resignation.

We understand there will be
much emotion at this news,

and we all share these feelings.

- Suddenly we got a very, very
different picture of Brian,

so I think it cracked open wide
the whole edifice of trust,

the whole edifice of
Brian knowing best.

It just disappeared in a moment.

- Hillsong Church
was birthed out

of Brian and Bobbie's
obedience and commitment

to the call of God, and
we are extremely grateful

for all that Brian and Bobbie
have given to build his house.

- Resign?

(both laughing)

- Like, sure, of his
own free will, sure.

- When Brian's
resignation was announced,

one thing that stood out is

that we didn't actually
hear directly from him.

He emails a pro forma apology
to Hillsong congregants,

but as far as what he
presented to the public,

it's really just a
few social media posts

and effectively
pleas for sympathy.

Then he does what
his father did,

instead of address
these matters in public,

he goes on vacation.

(slow orchestral music)

(scooter engines revving)

But at Hillsong, the
wheels really fall off.

The US branches
start shuttering.

Even the people who
this place was set up

to really benefit were
starting to jump ship,

such as Hillsong Phoenix
Pastor Terry Crist.

- Let's build a culture
where truth can be told

without fear of repercussion,
(congregation applauds)

without NDAs and non-competes.

- [Dan] Hillsong Atlanta
Pastor Sam Collier.

- People don't come
to church for scandal.

They come to church
to have a safe place.

- [Dan] Hillsong Boston
Pastors Leona and Josh Kimes,

as well as prominent
members of the board.

The music, which is
really the calling card

of the church, takes a huge hit.

- [Speaker] Worship leaders
should strongly reconsider

playing Hillsong music in
their worship services.

- Suddenly it wasn't so great

for Scott Morrison to be
friends with Brian Houston.

- I mean, I haven't
been at Hillsong now

for over about 15 years.

I go to a local church
in my own community,

a Pentecostal church, I
think everybody knows that.

- Who's in charge,
who's running the board?

Who's gonna be left to clean
up all of the remaining messes?

(congregation applauds)

- Phil Dooley is trying to
fill Brian Houston's shoes,

but, you know,

the beanie, the curly hair,

I'm sorry, it's something
of a pale imitation.

He doesn't project the personal
power of Brian Houston.

- This is not necessarily
an inspiring night, okay?

(slow orchestral
music continues)

- [Interviewer] Why are you
breaking your silence today?

- So, I think it's
safe to come out now,

only because of what Hillsong
is now going through,

to actually stand
up, pretty much.

The Goliath is on its back.

(slow music)

- As the allegations
and the stumbles

within the church became
more and more public,

it made the reporting
process a lot easier.

More whistleblowers
started to come forward.

- [Reporter] For the first time,

detailed allegations of
financial impropriety

by the megachurch have
been made public thanks

to a lawsuit brought
in the federal court

by the church's own bookkeeper.

- [Dan] Natalie Moses
observed an array

of what she said were
unethical accounting practices.

- It always amazes me,

with all that our church
is doing to help people,

that some people can't look
past my motorbike and a watch.

Yes, I do have a nice watch,
but I don't think that's a sign

that I'm living this
massively over-affluent life.

(slow music continues)

- [Dan] Natalie Moses tried
to pursue internal methods,

and when she was met with
resistance, she was fired.

- Natalie Moses claims
she discovered a range

of financial schemes,
large cash gifts given

to members of the church,

including its founder
Brian Houston,

as well as the remittance of
large sums of money overseas

to avoid scrutiny
by local regulators.

- Churches aren't corporations,

so they're not held to account

by the corporate regulator
and shareholders.

They're not government agencies,

so they're not held to account
by the sort of usual measures

in politics that hold
government agencies to account.

They kind of live
in their own space,

and if there's
something we've learned

from the royal commission, it's
that there's an expectation

that something would happen.

(slow music continues)

But again, it became apparent

that nothing was happening.

(slow music continues)

(slow piano music)

- The member for Clark.

- Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

Hillsong is breaking
numerous laws in Australia

and around the world
relating to fraud,

money laundering,
and tax evasion.

For example, this document
shows how in 2021,

four members of
the Houston family

and their friends enjoyed
a three day luxury retreat

in Cancun, Mexico, using
$150,000 of church money.

And these documents
show former leader

Brian Houston treating
private jets like Ubers,

again, all with church money.

Hillsong followers
believed that the money

they put in the poorbox
goes to the poor,

but these documents show how

that money is actually used
to do the kind of shopping

that would embarrass
a Kardashian,

for example, a six and a half
thousand dollar Cartier watch

for Bobbie Houston, two
and a half thousand dollars

in Louis Vuitton luggage,

a two and a half thousand
dollar watch for Phil Dooley,

two watches worth $15,000
for Joel and Julia A'Bell,

and even $16,000 for
custom skateboards.

And then there's the cash gifts,

up to $30,000 to board
members, some of whom

allegedly helped cover up
the sexual abuse carried out

by Frank Houston,
Brian Houston's father.

There's also the curious
payments of $10,000 each

to pastors who
investigated allegations

of Brian Houston's
2019 sexual misconduct

in a Sydney hotel room
involving a female parishioner,

the documents also revealing
Hillsong earns $80 million more

in Australian annual income
than it reports publicly.

I verified that these
documents are genuine,

and am shocked that when
offered to the ATO, ASIC,

and ACNC last year under
whistleblower legislation,

not one of those agencies acted,

and that is a failure of
regulatory oversight every bit

as alarming as
Hillsong's criminality.

Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

(slow piano music continues)

- I want to start
by saying I'm sorry.

I'm sorry that as your pastor,
you have to go through this,

and your kids have
to go through this.

It kind of feels like
being king hit from behind.

But Jesus loves you, Mr. Wilkie.

(congregation applauding)

(slow piano music continues)

- Here in the States,

the popularity of Hillsong has
sort of fallen off a cliff.

Is there something similar
happening where you are,

or is it still sort
of going strong?

- Tithes and donations
have dropped 20%

on this time last year.

The money is the
lifeline of Hillsong,

and it was a really serious
revelation, I think,

for donors to Hillsong to learn

that there had been
secret payments

of their money,
basically, right?

"So I give to the church,

and my money ends up secretly
being given to a victim."

Even if the payouts
were small amounts,

I think it really
undermined that trust.

- [Alex] The more we learn
about Brian's behavior

as a leader and
as a human being,

the more incoherent his
handling of Carl felt.

(slow piano music continues)

(gently chiming music)

(gently chiming music continues)

- I ended up in Florida because
Florida is so off the radar.

It's been quiet, it's been slow.

I don't know exactly how
to label what I'm good at,

but advertising, you know?

That was a pretty
easy little carryover

because I've been
advertising the gospel

for quite a while. (laughs)

(gently chiming music continues)

(light switch clicks)

(footsteps pattering)

(footsteps continue pattering)

This is it, this is my spot.

It's my spot and I love it.

Obviously from time to time
people will recognize you,

and there was a guy, (laughs)
we were in a meeting,

and after the meeting, my boss
noticed he kept looking over,

and he's like, "Yeah, that
is Carl, he's with us now."

And so he comes
down and he's like,

"Man, it's really
great to see you."

He's like, "How
does it feel to go

from so high to, like,
so, so low?" (laughs)

And I was like, "Well,
when you put it like that,

it doesn't feel great."

- When they first
started doing this-

- I get it, I get
what it looks like.

This actually isn't, it's
not like a better or worse

or a high or a low, you know?

It's just a different,
it's a different setting.

Really soon after
a lot of the stuff

that, you know, was
going on in the media,

even in the middle of that
storm, I went to a rehab.

- [Reporter] Carl
Lentz has checked

into an outpatient
facility that specializes

in depression, anxiety,
and pastoral burnout.

(slow music)

- In there, I began
the layer peel back

of how you end up in the
spot that I ended up.

(group chattering)

It took me this awful
rock bottom moment

to peel back what sexual abuse
does to somebody's brain,

in regards to how I handle
sex, how I handle truth,

how I handle defense systems,
how I handle control,

and for a long time,

it kind of dominated my
life without me knowing.

I found out at that rehab center

that I was a mess
inside, I was a mess.

I've learned a lot
about what church can be

in recovery rooms.

Unfortunately, sometimes
in our Christian community,

we have just neglected,
you know, logic,

neglected science, neglected
therapy, neglected help.

Christianity would say, "You've
got a problem with lust."

You know, you go to a
rehab, my therapist says,

"Can you stop using that word?

You know, you were a child,

and you were forced
to do these things,

and now you have some issues
that you need to work through,

but let's save the lust stuff
for your Christian summer camp

and let's talk about your
brain chemistry for a second."

And is lust a thing,
of course it is,

but my point is,
I went to a rehab,

and we prayed, we talked
about God, but then we went in

and talked about the stuff
that prayer in and of itself

and talking about Jesus
is not going to fix.

My actions are my fault,
what I've done is my fault.

But where that thing started,
I had no control over.

I was a kid, and.

(slow music continues)

(slow music continues)

The stuff that's
happening with Brian now,

like, this is tough for me,
I'll be honest with you.

It's really, really hard.

Some of it's frustrating,
yeah, because the stuff

that he looked at me with
the finger, and how could,

you know, "This
is what you did."

You know, if there's one
person who is not qualified

to talk about the
state of another person

in this situation,
it would be Brian.

(slow music continues)

But I hate to see what's
happening right now.

- Hillsong founder Brian
Houston is back in Australia

to face allegations he concealed

his father's child sex abuse.

Nine News was
there as he emerged

from quarantine just days
before his first trip to court.

(slow orchestral music)

- [Reporter] Brian
Houston back in Sydney,

the holiday well and truly over.

- [Speaker] Brian comes
home and really starts

what I call a non-apology tour,

doing everything in his power

to resurrect his brand
outside of Hillsong.

- Well, hi there, I
pray you're doing well.

I want to be clear,

the media and others
incorrectly say I resigned

because I breached the
Hillsong code of conduct,

but that's just not true.

I didn't resign
because of my mistakes,

I resigned because
of the announcements

and statements
that have been made

which Bobbie and I felt
made my position untenable,

and I spelled out my reasons-

- [Speaker] Not only
does he not apologize,

he goes fully on the defensive.

- The narrative that I'm
an alcoholic is false.

In fact, I've been told
by an expert therapist

that I do not
display the behaviors

that are typical
of an alcoholic.

And the notorious night in 2019

where I mixed a double dose
of anti-anxiety tablets

with alcohol was a
one-off occasion.

(Brian laughs)

It's great to be here,
and you know what,

I love this church, and-

- Brian is trying to maintain
a tenuous juggling act.

On the one hand,

he faces this really
serious charge in court.

- Alleged concealment of
alleged child sex offenses.

- But on the other hand,

he's trying to rehabilitate
himself as a preacher.

- We've had a big
challenge with seats

because some unhinged

and childish people kept
reserving fake seats.

People are harder on
people than God is, by far.

Cancel culture
will write you off,

but God won't write you off.

- [Speaker] After
Brian was forced out,

he'd started to go
against Hillsong.

He decried the way he
was forced to resign

and how Bobbie was terminated.

They pivoted to a new strategy

and painted
themselves as victims.

- I think the hardest part to
understand for Bobbie and I,

and the most difficult
part, Bobbie's termination.

- When Bobbie got fired,
they all were very shocked.

I'm like, "You just did
the exact same thing to me.

This is your church, like,

this is what you built
and your culture."

Like, I don't know what
else they expected.

- I've been humbled, but
I'm not living fallen

and I'm not living disgraced.

I'm living as a child of God
with my head held high, chosen,

called, graced, and with a
God-given future and hope.

(slow somber music)

- [Reporter] Today Hillsong
founder Brian Houston appeared

in court to begin his defense.

- If he is found guilty, it
could be up to five years jail.

I had a lot of people asking,

am I going to be attending
his court hearing?

And I thought, what
a great opportunity

to try and track every day.

It just made sense for me
to see this to the end.

(traffic roars)

Jake Elliot here.

I'm outside Downing Centre
for the court hearing.

I'll keep you posted.

- [Speaker] Loyalties
have shifted

since the royal commission days.

Brian all of a sudden
finds himself alone.

- [Jake] I was quite surprised

to see Brian without
bodyguards or his elders.

His wife was there, one of
his daughters was there.

It was the Houston tribe.

- [Interviewer] So what
was the defense's argument?

- Essentially it was,
well, Brian didn't know,

and anyone could've
reported it to police.

- Brian is not the
only one, you know,

half a dozen of the
top Pentecostal people

in Australia also knew,

and at least two very
senior Hillsong people

that we know of.

So this court case
involving Brian

might not be the last.

- It's almost like
the tide going out

and seeing which fish
were gonna get caught.

Brian actually said
Hazel, his mother,

knew about Brett Sengstock.

You could hear a pin drop.

(slow music)

She knew.

I actually felt sick hearing
that 'cause a lot of people

in Hillsong have such a high
regard for Hazel Houston.

She was such a bedrock
in the early days.

I actually was upset for Brian.

I was upset to see how he had

to speak of his mother that way.

- I feel a great sadness.

I feel a great maybe
moral responsibility.

But in terms of feeling like,

you know, that I somehow
am personally responsible

or even that our church
is ultimately responsible,

I don't feel.

The morality of it's a different
issue than the legal issue.

I don't for one moment think

that my pain is
anywhere near the level

of the person who was
abused by my father,

and I've only got
great, great sadness

about what my own personal
father did to him.

- [Interviewer] What was Brett
Sengstock's testimony like?

- It was actually really
hard to sit through.

It was incredibly hard watching
the defense really starting

to go after his memory,
it was remarkable

for someone like Brett
Sengstock to hold his ground.

So the trial hasn't
yet finished.

It's recommencing 2023, June.

I'm gonna do everything
in my power to be there.

(camera shutters snapping)
(slow music continues)

(slow piano music)

- When I think
about the friendship

that we've had with
Brian and Bobbie,

the great times that
we've had being connected

to Hillsong all those years,
it's just a sense of sadness,

particularly the way
Laura was treated.

She lost friends, she
lost position, she lost

everything.

- The journal starts
November 21st, which is

2020.

It's funny to look back at it.

"Everyone knowing my personal,

painful story is
the toughest part.

It makes me angry.

I'm hurt by my husband for
putting us in this position,

and hurt by Hillsong.

I've sacrificed a
lot for the church.

So yeah, I'm mad at God.

I deserve to be loved,
cherished, appreciated,

and cared for, and he
changed our story."

(slow music)

- [Roman] I dare you to eat it.

- To eat what?

- I'm hungry.

- Can you let, we're
gonna take that outside.

(slow music continues)

Ava, you take that.

- [Ava] Where does this go?

- Out on the back.

Out on the table.
- Get to work, Roman.

(group chattering)

- [Roman] I didn't
even spill it!

- It's been a grieving for me.

Carl made some
really bad choices

and made some really bad
decisions along the way.

I've done a lot of work on
myself independent of him to be

a strong woman.

I don't need him and
I don't need to stay.

(group chattering)

But I love him and
I love my family.

I love my kids,

(slow piano music)

and I love what
we're building now.

(group chattering)

- Okay, I'll do it, we're
good, we're good, we're good.

- Why did you stay?

I think that's
the question a lot

of people have wanted to ask me.

When my kids asked
me that, I said,

"Because I see your dad
trying and I see him changing,

and if I didn't see that,

and when I don't see
that, I would leave."

- And one day I was
like, "Hey, babe,

can you do something
with these books?"

Because, like, everywhere
in our room, like,

I'll go get my socks,
there'll be one of her books,

like, "What to Do After
You've Been Betrayed."

And then I'll go to brush
my teeth, it's like,

"How to Know if He's Cheating."

And I'll go, like,
to go to my closet,

and one of her other
books would drop,

like, "What to Do When Your
Husband's a Piece of Shit."

And I'm like,

"Babe, can you do something
about these books?"

She's like, "No, they're
gonna be everywhere."

(Laura laughs)

(group chattering)

(slow piano music)

- Should we pray?

(group laughs)

- Jesus, bless this food.

- Amen.

- [Group] Amen.

(slow piano music continues)
(group chattering)

- Me and Laura are a work in
progress, but we're still here.

(group laughs)
(group chattering)

Do you have a
feeling that this has

obviously affected your
relationship with God?

- Probably more, like-

- Drawing closer to a degree-
- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- I think it, like,
negatively affected me,

because all the people
that were, like,

hating on me on my Instagram
who claim to be, like,

Christian and, like,
children of God and stuff.

- Sometimes if you
get a bad messenger,

it affects the way you hear.

- To stand in church and

figure that part out is,

is a lot, but I have
to feel what I feel,

and I have to go
through that process.

- [Ava] So is it-

- [Carl] When did you
realize in this journey

that you married the right guy?

(group laughs)

- [Ava] Are we at
a dark humor point?

- [Carl] We might be
a dark humor family.

- I think we might be.

- I need four people in my life,

and they all share my
last name. (laughs)

That's the truth,
that's my circle.

That's who I'm focused on.

Those are the people
that matter, and I
have them every day.

So yeah, that was in
jeopardy for a while, and so

I understand why some
people would've walked away

from what happened with me.

I'm just super grateful
for those that didn't,

and I'm super grateful that
my circle of five is intact.

(slow music continues)

(slow music)

- I think Carl has
paid for what he did.

In terms of healing for his
congregants, for his flock,

there are thousands of people
that he just sort of left.

- I posted this on
Instagram in April of 2021.

"This church really
needs to change,"

and I put like 20
exclamation points,

but I could've done, like, 40.

"In fact, it needs to be
taken down and rebuilt

on a true, not Brian
Houston, Jesus foundation.

Brian Charles Houston created
and grew the culture Carl

and others were nurtured in.

So what do you expect
is gonna come out of it?

You plant things in rotten soil,

then you're going to have
rotten fruit," I'm sorry.

- Mm-hmm.

- The reason I'm doing this is

because I want to see
one of two things happen.

I want to see change, or I
want to see Hillsong shut down.

I loved Carl, and I didn't have
a problem so much with Carl.

I didn't know a whole lot

about what was going
on in Carl's life.

My problem was with
Hillsong, period.

Hillsong is the last church

that I will ever go to
this side of Heaven.

- I don't consider myself
a Christian anymore.

I don't know the answers to
the deeper questions in life,

and it's not so existentially
terrifying to me anymore.

I actually find peace in just
being like, "I don't know."

- Once I got further and
further away from the church,

I just found out for myself

that I don't think
any of it's real,

and it's beautiful if
people believe in it,

but for me, it's not me.

I'm a really happy atheist.

- It's been

four years now since
I stepped in a church.

There was no way that
I was gonna continue

to betray myself, people
deserve better than that.

People deserve to have
an actual community.

- Failing people on
a mass scale is hard.

I let down, genuinely,
a lot of good people,

and I can only
apologize and change.

My story is now one of recovery,

and it hasn't been
without failure.

You know, it's not like
we're on this road,

and all of a sudden, you know,

we're magically, our
family's perfect, I'm good.

So it's a pretty humbling
road to be on every day.

(slow music)

- When your church sort
of turns inside out

and you see how
much it was built

around the benefit
of an individual,

rather than this quote
unquote mission and vision

that you'd signed
yourself up for, yeah,

the disillusionment's
incredibly painful.

- Church is very triggering
for me right now.

I'm getting better,
I still can't sing.

I don't think I've
said a word in church

in a year and a half.

And I know God knows
my heart, (laughs)

and he knows where I'm at,
and I know it's a process.

And it makes me sad (cries)

because I love
the church, I love

what I was a part of.

But I see a lot of unhealthiness
in church life as well now

'cause I'm out of it,

things that I didn't realize
were unhealthy or, like,

manipulative, and I don't
think that's God's heart,

and I don't think that's what
Christianity's supposed to be.

- For any Evangelical community,

there needs to be a re-centering
on the heart of the faith

over and against
strategy and metrics

and success (laughs)
and the numbers game.

- What if you took a year,

and instead of counting
attendance on Sundays,

instead of counting conversions,

measure success based on
how the church is showing up

in times of real
crisis, crisis of life,

crisis of loss,
crisis of suffering.

I think if the church
wants to look at, like,

how do we avoid the pain of
this stuff in the future,

really look to why people
thought the church mattered.

(slow piano music)

- Your family's
supposed to, you know,

give your kids their guidance

and where they're
supposed to go,

and church is just a bonus,

and I feel like we have
that twisted a little bit.

You have to be at every
service every Sunday,

otherwise, you know, your
life could fall apart.

I just disagree with
that kind of mentality,

and I think there's more to
church than just a building.

Now, more than ever,
I really see that.

(slow piano music continues)

- My spirituality today,

it's very much a
personal thing now.

It's not connected
to formal church.

It's not connected to a place.

It's not connected to
anything in particular,

other than myself.

(slow piano music continues)

- So when I left Hillsong,
I went to a small church.

It didn't have all
the fancy stuff,

but it did have the
unconditional love

that I'd always been looking
for and hoping I'd find,

and I found it there.

And that really feels
like what Jesus was about,

being open and
loving to everyone.

(slow piano music continues)

- Hillsong can't become
a healthy organization.

It's a system of abuse,
and without that system,

it's not Hillsong,
it's a regular church.

It can't have the levels of
success and reach that it has

if it's gonna treat people
properly, keep children safe,

pay staff appropriately,
have equality.

You know, you can't
turn the Manson Family

into "The Brady Bunch."

- The reason I've spoken up is

because I saw what it did to me.

I've seen what it
did to my family,

and if there is somebody else

who might have been abused by
Frank who, maybe who knew me,

maybe who knew me, then
they would talk to me.

- For those that Frank
Houston preyed on,

a recognition of what
they've been through,

I think, is really important.

They've carried this
their entire lives.

It's a stone thrown into a pond,
but the ripples never stop.

There is no healing there.

Brian Houston has the influence

to create a space where some
sort of truth can be found,

and I don't think
he's done that.

(slow piano music)

- Whatever happens
with Hillsong,

whatever happens
with Brian Houston,

they have provided a template

for churches all
around the world,

for charismatic
Christians to exploit

and to convert their
personal charisma

into financial acquisitions.

That doesn't end
with Brian Houston.

- [Speaker] I think that
what Hillsong has shown is

the model is scalable
and profitable.

You can do it everywhere,
and people will eat it up.

The megachurch construct
is forever going

to be part of our lives.
(slow piano music continues)

- This whole contemporary
Christian culture,

it needs to be
dismantled in some way

and reborn as something else.

A church is people, a
church is community.

The church should be people
caring about each other,

and that honestly doesn't
have to have anything

to do with Jesus,
God, or anybody else.

(slow orchestral music)

(slow orchestral
music continues)

(water rushing)

(slow orchestral
music continues)

(slow orchestral
music continues)

(slow orchestral
music continues)

(slow orchestral
music continues)

(slow orchestral
music continues)

(slow orchestral
music continues)

(birds chirping)

(slow music)

♪ They know

♪ When it's time to die

♪ The world will cry

♪ It's the end of you

♪ Only God knows when
the beast was feeding ♪

♪ Taking from our mouths
when we ain't eating ♪

♪ Only God knows,
only God knows ♪

♪ Shedding more blood
than we are bleeding ♪

♪ Shedding more blood
than we are bleeding ♪

♪ Only God knows

(camera shutters snapping)

(slow orchestral music)

(slow music)