All language subtitles for The.Secrets.of.Hillsong.S01E01.2160p.WEB.h265-EDITH.mkv

- April 29th, 2012.

That was my first Sunday
at Hillsong Church.

I have the date
tattooed on me.

7,000
people line up to attend

one of seven services
offered each Sunday.

A church
frequented by celebrities

like Justin and Hailey Bieber.

Basketball stars.

Chandler,
they need to go!

Selena Gomez,
and Kendall and Kylie Jenner.

When I found
Hillsong Church,

it felt like I
belonged somewhere.

It's not just church
like it's an experience.

Hillsong
is a megachurch.

150,000 people go
there every week.

- It's very, very dark.

There's no windows, no
stained glass windows,

no piano, no organ.

- There's like young
people. Everyone looks hip.

Big band on stage.

- Everyone's clapping.

"Who's excited to
be at church today?"

- It was just... I felt magical.

- And then Carl
comes out on stage.

His messages were...

I mean, they were kind of
really beautifully crafted.

- I love you. It's good
to see you in church.

Just so you know, you're
dealing with depression.

So I want you to call me.

I want you to call
me if you need me,

'cause I'm not gonna
leave you high and dry.

Till the day we get it
right, I'm with you.

I got your back.

He repeatedly
hits these crescendos.

- I want some new problems.

- "I want new problems."

And it is true that
there were problems.

But they weren't the ones

that he was talking
about on stage.

Carl Lentz.

Carl Lentz.

Carl Lentz, the,
quote, "celebrity pastor,"

whose recent downfall has
triggered a wave of scandals

for the church-

- He was fired
from the wildly popular

Hillsong church for what
the church described

as "moral failures."

- As the story unraveled,
it made us question

why Carl was fired in
such a spectacular way.

- It's like Watergate. The
coverup was worse than the crime.

Spiritual
advisor to Justin Bieber.

This man's a
fool. He's a charlatan.

It's pitiful.

All
came crashing down

when Lentz admitted
to an affair.

- He went from golden boy to
shit string in like 33 seconds.

Carl Lentz is
working on damage control.

- I think if a story was
just about Carl cheating,

we probably wouldn't
be sitting here today.

The firing
of Lentz in New York

opened the floodgates
for Hillsong.

Carl was problematic,

but there were like larger
forces at work here.

This was a cultural problem.

The whole truth.

- The whole truth.

And
nothing but the truth.'

- And nothing but the truth.

The most
un-Christian behavior imaginable.

- It's child abuse, it's labor
abuse, it's sexual assault.

We certainly
knew that they were

the very serious allegations.

There was
more than one victim.

They knew this was going
to be a PR disaster.

Mean, this is a
church we're talking about.

And then
Carl just disappeared.

We reached out
and have no comment from Carl

and Hillsong Church.

But I
mean Carl's flock,

the people in his church

who really depended on
him, they felt deserted.

They were adrift.

♪ I hope you find
some peace of mind ♪

♪ In this lifetime ♪

♪ I hope you find
some paradise ♪

Well, I'm sick of
seeing people who are amazing

wreck their lives over something

that could have been stopped.

That's why you have to do
everything in your life tonight.

- I've been a journalist,

primarily an investigative
journalist for about 15 years.

Protect your
identity. Protect your sexual-

- I love it when
you work on a story

and the story that
you're assigned first

isn't actually the one
that you end up following.

Tonight, you
are here, because God-

- And I think that that's
what happened to Dan and I.

- I started reporting on Hillsong
when Carl Lentz got fired.

My editor, Matt Lynch
texted me one night saying,

"We should take a closer
look at all of this."

At first, it was a
celebrity scandal,

and then quickly
it became a scandal

having to do with
the church itself.

- I've never seen
anything like this.

I mean it's just this thing
that is splitting apart,

and it's crazy to me

that the sort of the
first shoe was Carl.

- I was raised
traditional Catholic.

It was just a lot of Hail Marys
and a lot of Our Father's.

I always felt like it
was my family's faith

and it always just
passed along to me.

But when I found
Hillsong Church,

I'm looking around this place

and there's people that look
like me and that are my age.

And then Carl Lentz walks
on stage and I'm like,

"Who is this?

This cannot be the pastor."

- Remember, we didn't know
when we moved into this condo

that to the left of our condo
was one drug dealing community

and to the right was another
drug dealing community.

Found out one day, because
as I was sitting there

at about two o'clock
on a Saturday

playing "Call of
Duty" as a grown man,

which is always God's will,

with my baby girl Ava who's
asleep at the time upstairs

and I heard a loud pop,

15, 16, 17 pops,
unmistakable gunfire.

And we did what
all strong men do,

immediately screamed
and hid under the couch.

And there was a moment where
there's about four detectives

looking at our house and
they're sitting there

and I came over, I said, "Sir,

what are you guys looking at?"

And they're like, "We
just can't believe

that there is not
one bullet hole

in the second floor
of your house.

'Cause from where he
was shooting from,

you should have not
just one or two,

but you should have all
kinds of bullet holes.

Is there anybody up there?"

I'm like, "Yeah, my
daughter's up there.

My daughter, she's
sleeping up there."

And I just thought,
man, this is crazy.

And then my old neighbor,
about 70-some-years-old,

comes out in just a tank
top and some underwear

and some crocs, he's like, "Oh
you know, that's a Christian.

He a man of God. Ain't nothing
ever gonna touch that house.

That's what happened there."

So I tell you what, I don't
think it's because I'm a pastor.

I don't think it's
because I'm a man of God.

But I do think that you can
rest a little bit easier tonight

knowing that God
is protecting you

from things you
have not seen yet.

He is protecting you from forces

that you cannot
fight on your own.

This is our God.

Come on, somebody if
you believe in him-

Felt like he
was preaching just to me.

- We're leaving
with this tonight.

And-

- Just remember this.

- It was life-changing.

- It overflows.

- Like, I'm lost
and now I'm found.

- Carl's primary gift, I
think, just in life is charm.

He has a way of
seeming fairy genuine.

- Something's going on with him.

Oh yeah, he goes and he
listens to your speeches.

I think
he's an amazing actor.

- I felt awkward when I first
started going to Hillsong.

In fact, I didn't want to go.

Ashley forced me to go.
Ashley's my daughter.

- Alright, you gonna say grace?

- Yes.
- Okay.

I was like, "You should come."

And she's like,
"Absolutely not."

- That was the
oldest person there.

- I think she liked knowing
that I felt so connected to it,

and she started coming to
the services and, you know,

she was a superstar.

- Would you like to
know how I met Carl?

I was leaving church
down the back stairway,

and Carl and Laura were
coming downstairs and I said,

"Oh, Pastor Carl,

I was hoping I'd get to
meet you. I'm Mary Jones."

He said, "Oh, I
know who you are.

I've been dying to meet you.

So I'm glad that my wife
and I get to meet you."

- When you talk to Carl,

if you got a chance
to talk to Carl,

I don't know, you
felt so special.

- I became known in
church as Mama Jones.

I felt that inside of Carl,
there's something good.

I don't know that there was a
sermon that he ever preached

that he didn't cry.

- I love you. I
refuse to cry tonight.

- But I'm gonna say this,

I think Carl could cry on cue.

He held the
microphone, he'll go.

And I know I'm not making
the right face, but

if he sees this,

he's probably gonna
hate me for saying this.

But it was funny. I mean-

- Great sermon. You don't
have to be a superstar.

- It really touched me
when he would do that.

- Grateful that Jesus
saved your life. Anybody?

Anybody? Anybody?

Don't show this,
Byron. This is fake.

Carl Lentz has

this very specific
type of confidence.

Oh like yo, he gets it.

♪ This right here is my swag ♪

♪ All the girls are on me ♪

- So the first time
I actually met Carl,

I don't remember what
he said, but like,

Carl Lentz is just so charming.

- All the single people,
give me a quick wave.

♪ Pretty boy swag ♪

♪ Pretty boy swag ♪

- Oh. Okay, I get it.

I would follow
this guy anywhere.

A
largely young crowd

of 7,000 people each Sunday.

- He was mobbed by the
congregants in the same way

any other celebrity would be.

♪ Pretty boy swag ♪

♪ Pretty boy swag ♪

The 35 year
old husband and father

is not your average pastor.

He was this tall,
handsome statuesque guy

really into fashion, and he
wore this Yves Saint Laurent

black leather jacket.

Covered in tattoos,
tight black jeans with-

- Very deep V-neck shirts,

like I mean the deepest V
you've ever seen in your life

of anybody who's not at a gym.

Hold up, let's see what's
going on with his shorts.

So he was really
something to look at.

You keep
your eyes on Jesus.

- There is a sense that
pastors not only can be cool,

but can be attractive like hot.

- My wife Laura Lentz
is here with me.

She's amazing.

I refuse to cry
tonight. That's my goal.

But I will say that the
love of my life you are.

We have three children,
three products of passion

and we pastor Hillsong
New York City.

Carl and Laura

are the husband and
wife pastoral team.

All of these preachers, you
know, they get married young

because your pastor
needs to be married.

- Again, achurch is supposed
to be a reflection of family.

You never want to get caught
having a church that's good,

but your family's kind of dying.

If we take care of our
marriage and our family,

church will take
care of himself.

Your brother told
me the first day...

So we don't have a lot of room

to not practice what we preach.

- A small card from Laura,

"I saw you worshiping
in church tonight

and was just
overwhelmed and thankful

that you are part of what
we are building here.

Carl and I appreciate you.

Have a blessed week.
Love, Laura Lentz."

That is,

that is the gold in
the garbage here, so.

Yeah.

- Laura, she was like
the mother of the church.

She didn't have like, you know,

the stage magnetism
that Carl had,

but I think she
believed in his mission

in a rather selfless way,

as if she had an understanding
of Carl belongs to the world.

At Hillsong it was an ensemble
cast built around the star.

Carl was the star.

- There would be no Hillsong
New York without Carl Lentz.

- I love you, Brian
and Bobbie Houston.

I'm gonna take a moment
and make this awkward,

because I represent a lot of
people that really love you

and forget about the church
that you have, the family,

and the marriage, and who you
are outside of the platform.

That in and of itself
could be its own movie.

Can you stand to your feet and
give Brian and Bobbie Houston

a huge hand tonight?

- I thought Carl was Hillsong.

As we started digging in, it
did take a minute to understand

that there was this monolithic
leader behind Carl Lentz.

Thank you, Bishop,

the Big Eagle and
the Mother Dove.

That's Brian Houston.

- Well, I'm Brian Houston.

- And I'm Bobbi Houston.

Brian and his wife
Bobbie founded Hillsong in 1983

in the suburbs of Sydney.

- I don't think I realized

in learning about
Hillsong New York

that it was actually part of
this global church movement

that started in Australia.

- Hillsong presents
itself on the outside

as this progressive idea or
a progressive belief set.

- Jesus Christ.

But Brian Houston
is a conservative guy.

- And worship and so on
is very contemporary.

But if you like our theology,
it's very conservative.

His core
beliefs are rooted

in old-school Pentecostalism.

- Pentecostalism is a
global evangelical movement.

Pentecostalism is marked by
demonstrations of the spirit,

things like speaking in tongue-

Receiving
messages from God directly.

Dreams and visions.

- Snake and horrible
things, people's faces.

Healings,
physical healings.

- In the name of Jesus!

Just gonna
stop with you for a few secs.

There's a fly.

- Oh! That's not great.

No,
no. You got this.

- Actually, the Pentecostals
would say this is demonic.

Oh, really?

This is a
distraction.

Sorry.

- Pentecostals, they're
a little extreme.

There is often also a
political dimension.

Lots of mobilization around
traditional family values.

The pro-life cause,

against, you know, LGBT
rights and equality.

- God who created marriage
said marriages should be

between a man and a woman
in a lifetime relationship.

- One elephant in the rooms

for the church all around
the world right now

is the gay situation.

Leading up
into the 2016 election,

81% of white evangelicals
who voted for Donald Trump.

- Well, what an honor to be
stranded in the White House

and to have just had the chance
to pray for President Trump.

- Was this about
following Christ

and living out his teachings

or was this about
consolidating power?

- Hillsong is a
Pentecostal church.

Most people probably
wouldn't know that,

might be surprised to find out.

When I was there it was
very kind of undercover.

They do have services where,

where they do speak in tongues
and do pray over people.

- Speaking of the tongues as
the spirit gives you utterance.

And we should be open to the
speaking in other tongues.

- And I think the more
Hillsong has wanted

to be more mainstream
and seem cool,

like I think that's
one of the things

that quickly kind of
got shoved to the side.

- Can I get a Pentecostal
amen through the screen?

Back to the message.

It was Hillsong's
first American location.

- New York isn't necessarily
the first place you would think

to plant a new
Pentecostal church.

- New York was known as a place
where churches come to die.

- If they wanted to bring
their spin on Christianity

to new audiences, to the
center of media attention,

there really couldn't
be a better place

than New York to do it.

- It was cool, it was
hip and, you know,

New York loves like
the new hip thing.

Carl appeared on
platforms where the church

would have an opportunity to
appeal to a younger audience.

- Especially in New York,

we've dealt with the
whole generation of people

that have run from church
just 'cause it's been scary,

it's been weird,
it's been like rules.

And when you meet
Jesus, we believe,

it's not you have to,
it's a you get to.

- When I started at
Hillsong New York City,

I was a volunteer.

Obviously I wasn't paid
but everybody was so happy

to pitch in whatever they
needed to all the time

in any kind of way.

- Irving Plaza where
we met is a nightclub,

and you know, we would get
in there early in the morning

and it would just be sticky
with beer all over the floor.

The smells were very
exciting smells.

- Carl would always say
"Church in the wild,

church in the wild
is what we're doing."

As a volunteer meet, clean
up vomit or, you know,

weed in the garbage or whatever.

Nobody cared at all because
it was such an adventure

and it was such a privilege
to be a part of it.

- We were on the cusp
of doing something

that hadn't been done before.

We were planting a Hillsong
Church in New York City.

- Our church is a year
and a couple months old

and will you promise
me you'll pray

for Hillsong Church
New York City?

Oh, nine of you. Great.

That makes me feel better.
All I needed was one.

- There was so much potential
for what it was gonna be.

We happen
to have Joel and Carl.

- Tell us what's going on,
what's happening in New York.

- Where do you wanna start?

- Sounded like an
impossible thing to do.

Which had our name all over.

- Carl and Joel Houston,
who's Brian Houston's son,

started Hillsong
New York together.

That was sort of the
dream that they had had

since they were college
students together in Australia.

And that was when Carl
first caught Brian's eye

as sort of a golden
boy or a protege.

He found in Carl a world-class
talent as far as preaching.

- Joel Houston is
one of the great

Christian singer-songwriters
of all time.

So Joel had the music and
Carl did the preaching

and together they were
an unstoppable force.

- Hillsong music,
that's actually

a lot of people gateway
drug into Hillsong.

It's phenomenal, it's
beautiful, it's emotional.

- In fact, a lot of people
knew about Hillsong's music

before they knew that
Hillsong was a church.

- My mom started taking
the piano recitals

when I was in second grade,
and I've actually did listen

to Hillsong as a kid.

When I enlisted
at 17 in the Army,

I did deploy to Iraq and
I got medically discharged

dealing with the aftermath
of a lot of that.

Like, I wasn't doing
well for a while.

- I was so hurt from a breakup.

I get on the train and
my heart just like,

oh, it cried out,

"Man, I wish I was in
church this morning."

And then I get off the train
and I have a Facebook message.

A friend of mine said,

"I don't know if you found
a church here in New York

but I think you should
come to this place

that I've been going to.

I think you'll really like it.

It's called Hillsong."

I walked in and the music
was playing, and that was it.

I was done. What do
you need me to do?

I need to be a part of
whatever is happening here.

They're singing about hope,

they're singing about perseverance,
and it was so special.

- Go into a service,

feel like I found some
like purpose in my life.

I love this.

♪ Only God knows when
the beast was feeding ♪

♪ Taking from our mouths
when we ain't eating ♪

♪ Only God knows ♪

♪ Only God knows ♪

♪ Only God knows ♪

- Church can be an incredibly
positive experience.

It gives us community,
it gives us support.

We were not called to
do this life alone.

- When I had got to
Hillsong New York,

I was only there
for a few months

and I ended up finding
myself on stage

playing it with Carl Lentz.

- There were cars
that would say like,

"Hey would you
like to volunteer?"

I had written down
that I was a singer.

That Sunday I auditioned.

The next Sunday I sang on stage.

Each week something
like 50 million people

are singing Hillsong
worship songs.

So what's happening
on stage in New York

and what's being presented
on social media in New York

is really happening
all across the globe.

These albums are
always charting.

They were reaching like the
non-Christian music charts.

"What a Beautiful
Name" won a Grammy.

- This is an absolutely
incredible honor.

- I did have this
moment of like,

I'm gonna change the
trajectory of my life.

- I was just all Hillsong now.

♪ What a powerful Name it is ♪

♪ What a powerful Name it is ♪

♪ Jesus ♪

- Instagram officially
launched on October 6th, 2010.

Hillsong New York officially
launched on October 17th, 2010.

So Instagram and
influencer culture

was always in the water
with Hillsong New York.

Added
to this was the fact

that their headquarters
were based in Williamsburg,

the epicenter of the
2010s hipster movement.

- Carl's inner circle lived
at a building in Williamsburg,

184 Kent, and that became
known as The Compound,

and that was where
the pastors partied.

It was where they hung out.

- Welcome to the partey.

- People like Carl
Lentz saw Instagram

as a way to advertise
a cool Christian faith.

From
the Crystal Cathedral

in Garden Grove, California.

So just as
pastors and ministry leaders

in the '70s and '80s
really embraced television.

Hi, Tammy Faye.

Hi, Jim Bakker.

Instagram
has the power

to reach an
international audience.

Is Carl accumulated
more and more followers-

- Jesus didn't have a Snapchat.

His cultural cache
grew and he was able to mix

with athletes,
celebrities, musicians.

- I just wanna love Carl more.

- You're doing a
good job with that.

You went to Hillsong?

- Yes.
- Our friend Carl Lentz,

who we love.

- I felt very empowered
when I walked out.

How great is this?

- He pioneered
celebrity pastor culture

for this generation.

I think he's the first
sort of hype priest.

- Lots of Carl mini-mes,
everyone looked up to him,

some people idolized him.

- You are our hero.

I mean, look at this
guy. Carl Lentz, folks.

- In 2014 there was probably
what was the trademark moment

of Carl's reign which is when
he baptized Justin Bieber

in the basketball player
Tyson Chandler's bathtub.

♪ Mount Everest ain't
got shit on me ♪

He was
going through it.

He was like I wanna start fresh.

- So I reached out to...

Some people I really
know care about me

and who happened to
be in the church,

stayed with their family
for a couple months

and literally just
did regular stuff,

ate dinner with them,

and it just brought this
sense of humbleness.

And the way he lives his life
is really what he talks about.

Like when I go to his
home, I feel really loved.

♪ 'Cause I'm on
top of the world ♪

♪ I'm on top of the world ♪

- He was being followed by
a million paparazzi people

and I finally called my
buddy, Tyson Chandler.

I said, "I'm with Justin,
we want to baptize him."

And he's like, "Come
and use my bathtub,

'cause it's especially
made for a seven footer.

And it's
two o'clock in the morning?

- It's two o'clock
in the morning.

You don't just dip
your toe in it.

You know, God's grace
covers your entire body.

Nick established
Carl as a cultural force,

and it created kind
of a feedback loop.

- Mama-

- Hi, Kathy!

- Met Oprah.

- For Carl, his fame became

not just sort of
anthropological oddity,

but the thing itself.

And it gave power
against the sense,

if these big stars
were attracted to Carl

and everything he was offering,
why wouldn't I be too?

- Just started our
9:00 PM service

and it's packed to capacity,

turned away hundreds
of people at 9:00 PM.

We call our 11:00 AM the early
bird service in New York.

It wasn't just a thing
of like it's growing

because people are
inviting people.

It's growing also because
there's a line down the street

and there's a velvet rope.

- Reaching people with the
gospel message is growth.

So what happens when growth

becomes the primary goal?

- Hey, Kansas City,
I am so excited

because this weekend we are
launching Hillsong Church.

♪ Mount Everest ain't
got shit on me ♪

You've
got 150,000 people

going to Hillsong services
every week in like 30 countries,

and all those people
are giving money.

- Tithing is giving 10% of
your income to the church.

There were also like
certain services

where it was tithing
above and beyond.

So you would look at your
bank account and say,

"You know what, God, I wanna
present Hillsong church

with this amount."

- So right now, as always,
we're gonna receive our giving

shows you on the
screen the various ways

people like to give, Bobbie...

I would have no idea
how much any individuals

given church and no one
gets treated any different

whether they do or they don't.

- Brian Houston and Hillsong

introduced different
levels of worshipers.

You know there was a VIP center,

and if you donated a
certain amount of money

as a kingdom builder

you could get to have
coffee with Brian,

which starts to sound like
a pyramid selling scheme.

- Hillsong and money is like a
little bit of a broken record

for a lot of people
because it's, you know,

so inaccurate on so many levels.

- The money, from my understanding,
was counted and then...

I don't know.

Brian's finances
are incredibly opaque.

It was reported that
the Houstons had access

to a million dollar church
paid expense account,

that included luxury cars

as well as solely
funded overseas tours

where Brian would earn
up to $20,000 per speech.

- There's probably more
than 20 Hillsong entities,

you know, an entity
for Hillsong College,

an entity for a music
composition, cafes,

and you don't have
any visibility really

of the flow of money
between those entities.

They benefit from tax
deductibility status.

So tens and tens of
millions of dollars a year

flowing in largely untaxed.

They're able to
sort of have it both ways.

They're able to
avoid the oversight

that secular industries
might be more accustomed to.

On the other hand,
Hillsong is in many ways

playing the same game as
those secular industries.

They're competing
in the same spaces,

appearing on the same charts.

- Yes, it's a church, but
it looks like a corporation.

It acts like a corporation.

When it gets into
trouble it hires lawyers

who do damage control.

This is a 30-year
brand and successful.

- And I think it's a
matter for congregants.

What are you okay with?

Like are you okay
with your church

functioning as a business?

Because the system
benefits those

who are running the system,

but the services, you
know, the day-to-day,

those are actually run
by unpaid volunteers.

Every church functions
because of volunteerism,

but here it is a matter
of keeping overhead down

to maximize profit.

- Megachurches are generally
defined as a church over 2,000.

They really became a cultural
phenomenon in the mid-1990s.

The church as a
whole is built around

a very capitalist model of get
money, get property, expand.

How big can we get?

How many sites can we get?

How many souls can we win?

We were so determined to
figure out if we could do it,

we never stopped to
ask if we should.

- Early days you might
see 30, 40 volunteers

making things work.

Once it started to grow where
we are doing six services,

you have to have at least
like a thousand people

doing those things each day.

- So it's your job to come to
church again, volunteer again,

start loving people again.

Come on, somebody, if
you hear me right now.

- Broadly speaking, there
have been two groups

of Hillsong volunteers.

The group that's very happy,

they don't have to
do that much work

and they were enjoying the
spoils of all the success.

And then there was another
group of Hillsong volunteers

who felt bad.

They were being exploited.

They felt that they were
working long hours for no pay,

no real chance of advancement,

and that this was all being
done in the name of a spectacle

that was not really for them.

- Hillsong culture is
loyalty to Hillsong.

You are a small part
of the big thing

God is doing on the earth,

and what an honor.

Can you believe
we get to do this?

- They would always say that,

"Can you believe
we get to do this?"

And it was this way of sort
of getting people to be like,

"This is so cool.
This is awesome."

And the first project
I actually worked on,

I was in the studio
for about three weeks.

We'd be in there sometimes
more than 12 hours a day.

And it was like a day
rate of like $180.

Maybe a little less than that.

- Hillsong musicians are some
of the foremost ambassadors

of the church.

They're also some of the
laborers who are working

under the most
grueling conditions,

because of the touring schedule

and the need for more
and more and more music.

At the same time, the people
who are actually performing

some of the church's
biggest hits

aren't really seeing any
of the money from it.

- There were many times,

especially when the
work wasn't frequent,

that it would get really scary.

I got into a lot of
like credit debt.

Trying to rationalize
that now is hard,

but I can remember
then I felt so lucky.

- You need your systems in place

to meet the needs of the people
who are in your community.

And I think where it gets
tricky is when the expansion

is going faster than the ability
to still show compassion,

to still meet needs.

- I think I had a really
good relationship with Carl.

I know he respected me.

I could talk to
him about problems,

you know the bubbles every
like that long on my phone.

There were volunteers
that were coming in

and doing all of this work
and they're doing it for free.

Some people, they could
not work full-time jobs

with the schedules that we had.

They are trying to
live in New York City

with the astronomical rents.

Don't know when
they're going to eat

or what they're going to eat

or they got an eviction
notice they're facing.

They were coming to me and
asking can I get them help?

Is there any way that they
can find, they can get help?

The head of pastoral
care said to me,

it's illegal for the church

to give people
lump sums of money.

I said, "No it's not.

The church helps its people

and people outside
of the church.

Come on."

It broke my heart.

And what are
you doing this conference?

Hanging out?
- Yeah, we've been hanging.

- Wearing supreme sweaters.

- Just wearing sweaters.

- Just living the dream.

You've been living the
dream, honestly, right?

Through you to be put

on the lives of people
around and about you than-

- Hillsong tried to create
this image of a lifestyle

and of sex appeal
and of this charisma

that really has nothing
to do with church

and makes a lot of their
quite reactionary social views

much more palatable.

They essentially
created a Trojan horse.

- I was always trying to
resolve during my reporting

what's progressive and where
the conservative strains

of Christianity fit
into this equation.

I always wanted to know
where they really stood

on gay marriage, where they
stood on things like abortion,

and I got crafted answers.

Please welcome
Pastor Carl Lentz.

- I wanted to say, before
we even get started,

you really don't look like any
pastor that I've ever seen.

- We just kind of try to
be ourselves at all times.

- Hillsong is seen as a
this hip progressive church

that's drawn huge
Millennial crowds,

but it's still evangelical.

- I mean do you
guys have positions

on, say, gay marriage
and things like that?

- We have a stance on love.

In everything else we
have conversations.

We have a stance on love

and we have conversations
about everything else.

- So what does that mean?

- Exactly that.

I think our job is
still to help people

not necessarily
change how they think.

We're not trying to change
anybody 'cause we can't.

- I had a really
unusual upbringing.

My dad is a traveling
evangelical pastor.

We would travel
around the country

and go to different churches
for two weeks at a time.

Hurray! Hallelujah!

- When my dad would
deliver his sermon,

he would say that homosexuality
is equal to murder.

Probably towards high school

is when I started to like
figure out I was gay.

In the name
of - Jesus Christ.

- I was living a
very confusing life.

That's one reason that I
was so drawn to Hillsong.

Hillsong's biggest
tagline is welcome home.

That's what you'll
see everywhere.

You'll see it on banners,
you'll see it outside.

They want you to feel
a part of something,

and it hits things that make
you feel like you're seen.

I started dating a guy and
we went to Hillsong together,

and I didn't hide it.

I was in a leadership
position as a frontline singer

singing on stage
as one of the faces

of Hillsong New York City.

We would often be sitting on
like the second row together,

'cause I would sing and
then I would come down

and just sit with him.

Hi, I'm Josh and
this is my boyfriend.

- Reed.

- In early 2014, I had
the exciting opportunity

to go on CBS' "Survivor."

I went to Pastor Carl
before I went on the show

and I said, "Hey, I
just need you to know

that I'm going on 'Survivor'
and I'm gonna be like honest.

I really want to be
open about the church.

I wanna be open about who I
am and I just wanna make sure

that you're okay with
me saying Hillsong."

And he was like,
"Absolutely, of course,

say whatever you need to say.

Like you need to be yourself."

That gave me the impression
that I was still welcome

and I was still at home
and I was still safe.

A gay couple
Christians saving themselves,

adored by their church.

- And so I felt really good.

And then, Brian Houston
decides to release a statement.

"Hillsong does not agree
with the gay lifestyle

and Hillsong New York does
not have a gay choir director

that has a boyfriend."

Pastor Brian Houston
says that I don't exist.

- Why don't you agree
with same sex marriage?

- Oh, I think the
Bible is clear.

And so ultimately we are
dependent on the Word of God,

which is scriptures.

- It's not that we're
against anything,

it's what we're for
what the Bible says.

- But I guess my question is,

in your opinion is marriage
only between a man and a woman?

- We would say the
Bible is really clear

that marriage is between
a man and a woman.

And I believe the
Bible says what it says

and I interpret it
exactly as the Bible says.

- The Bible deals with the
issue of sexual activity,

but it doesn't have a category

for what we call sexual
orientation from birth.

The bigger question we need to
keep in mind is can we expect

a text that was written so
long ago in specific context

to address every issue today?

No, we can't expect this.

We can't make the Bible into
a gay rights advocate book,

because that isn't the framework
of the ancient writers.

The same goes for making the
Bible an anti-gay rights book.

The truth is theology
is never based simply

on what the text says.

Texts don't speak, they
always have to be interpreted.

- On the outside Hillsong
looks super progressive,

but then as you
look underneath it,

at the heart of Hillsong global

are really super
conservative white men

and that's not
what they believe.

At the heart of it,
it is come as you are

and then we'll change you.

Ice, no peace!

No justice, no peace!

No justice, no peace!

You know,
it's been growing unrest.

No
justice, no peace!

No justice, no peace!

- Trump is rising and
evangelicals are supporting him.

But Carl is also
rising and being known

as the pastor who will
say Black lives matter.

- It's for me, I believe
that Black lives matter.

That's what I say.

There is a portion of our
community that is frustrated

and they are suffering
and they are hurting.

Of course, all lives matter,

but it's okay to say
Black lives matter.

What's wrong with you?

- You have been very vocal
against racism in this country,

and while many Christian
leaders in my view

really stayed silent,

did you worry about
losing parishioners?

And also, did you get a
lot of pushback for that?

- Yeah. Yes.

Yes and yes. We have an issue.

And some of that stuff
needs to be said upfront,

out loud no matter
what you believe,

no matter what your background.

Carl positioned
himself, however accurately,

as on the cutting edge of race
and evangelical Christianity.

- Churches might be one
of the biggest propagators

of racist ideology
in our country.

- But as Black
people in his church

we're just not represented.

- One of the things Hillsong's
so known for in New York City

was how diverse the church was.

So from the platform you
would look out and I was like,

man, this is so beautiful.

Like there are so many
different people of color here.

Like it's incredible.

And then if you reverse it,

you look at the platform
and you're like,

the platform does not
represent the people

in this congregation.

- And Carl realized that,

"Hey, we need to have
a meeting about this."

- This was just our chance
to sit down with them

and like kind of face to
face airing of grievances.

- So people went around and
we told them how we felt.

- You know we get
into this conversation

about organic versus
intentional and Carl's like-

- One of the guys
who's in the meeting

who's a civil rights attorney,

and he just laid it out
and he said, you know.

- You could see Carl that the
clique went off in his head

and he said-

- I left the meeting just
feeling really hopeful.

For the next three to four
weeks there were Black people

doing the offering messages,

and then it just
kind of tapered off

and then it was no more.

- Carl had other things to do.

He was traveling, he was
chaplain of the Knicks team,

he was writing a book,

he was everywhere
except at Hillsong NYC.

Nothing was going to happen
because it would have taken work

that they were unwilling
to do, too busy to do,

uninterested in doing.

It's not the glamorous stuff.

- Being one of the
only Black females

at Hillsong Kansas City,

I was included in so much
of the marketing material

for a really long time.

There was never like
any Black people

like in actual leadership.

That bugged me so much.

I remember having a friend,

another Black
female at Hillsong.

She could see like the
racial systemic issues

within the church.

But she would raise her
hand and be like, "Hey,

like, I see this going on,"

and they just immediately
shut her down.

My friend got fired, and
I was just like disgusted.

A couple weeks later
I went to church

just like a regular Sunday,

but I felt like
something was in the air.

Like I just walked in
service like normal,

like grabbed a cup of coffee,

said hi to a couple people,
and then I hear like,

"Hey Crystal, do you
have a moment to talk?"

The lead Pastor Liz literally
comes out of nowhere.

"I heard you've
been walking around

talking trash about
the leadership,

saying you don't
trust leadership.

You know if you don't leave,

then we'll have the
police escort you out."

- I have an officer coming
if that gets to that point.

probably
gonna get us involved,

you can be arrested
for trespassing.

And if
you refuse that,

then we'll have the police
arrest you for trespassing.

But they
want you to leave

and you need to do that,

'cause they have a legal
right to tell you to leave.

- Behind her, people I've
known for like five years,

I'm still walking in to
service and not even stopping

to like check in.

My belief in church

was probably the first thing
to go that day.

- In the fall of 2017,

quite a few friends
had been talking about

lots of situations they
were encountering at church.

There was widespread
issues that we saw

and it was very alarming

and it wasn't being
dealt with at all.

Ended up being five friends
from different backgrounds

who had been invested in
the church for a long time

and who cared deeply.

We felt the
responsibility as leaders

to do something about it.

- And so the five of
us asked the leadership

to call the people who are
causing problems to account.

Dear Hillsong NYC staff.

- When a church is
less like a family

and more like an enterprise,

it's leaders act less like
pastors and more like commanders.

This puts everyone in danger,
the leaders and the people.

- There are verified and
widely circulated stories

of inappropriate sexual behavior
amongst staff and interns.

- Sweeping of messy situations
and problems under the rug.

- And lack of accountability.

We no longer trust the
leadership of Hillsong NYC.

- The problems and concerns
voiced in this letter-

- Are desperate, last
ditch endeavor to address-

- And put out small fires
which have now developed

into a massive inferno.

- Into a massive inferno.

Hillsong NYC should not join
the list of other churches

and institutions that ignored
repeated outcry of victims,

until some horrifying
scandal takes them down.

This is deeply personal to us

because this place...

This church in this
city was our dream, too.

We are disappointed
beyond measure

and fearful of what is ahead

if these issues
remain unchecked.

Sincerely, The Five.

- We had a meeting afterwards
with Carl and some leaders,

and even though they were
saying all the right things

related to how things would
be different, and you know,

"we'd look into all of this,"

I just wasn't convinced at all.

I remember distinctly
leaving the office thinking,

it's not gonna have the
impact that we hoped for.

- Within the year,

I don't believe that there
were any of the five left

at Hillsong NYC.

- November, 2020, Brian
Houston kind of outta nowhere

announces that he's
fired Carl Lentz.

- Carl was fired for
what were called,

quote unquote, "moral failings."

In the context of Hillsong,
moral failing has been used

as a catchall for,

I mean, I guess you
don't know really what,

and that's sort of the point.

But for any sort of
indiscretion that has led

to some sort of ouster
from the church.

- The next day, Carl has
a statement on Instagram

about how he had been
untrue in his marriage

and he had been leading
from this hollow place.

- There were a few
days when Carl's firing

was mostly mysterious, just
announced he was leaving

and this photo,

and then the detail
started coming very fast.

The celebrity
megachurch sex scandal

and his spectacular
fall from grace.

Had a relationship
outside of his marriage.

A woman who
said she had an affair

with Hillsong Church
pastor Carl Lentz.

Ranin Karim
says, when she met Lentz

five months ago, they began

what she called a
consensual affair

in spite of what she
thought were red flags,

including him telling
her not to google him.

- Ranin Karim, the woman Carl
was cheating on Laura with,

started giving interviews
to multiple tabloids.

- Like, there's something
wrong with your marriage

that you sitting here with me?

- Getting more and
more in depth about

the amount of tequila that
was involved in their affair,

the nicknames he would use.

Did he
tell you he loved you?

- Yes, he did.

- How he would claim
to be a sports agent.

- He didn't wanna
say what he does.

- And it was just an onslaught.

- I feel bad for her.
- I never meant to hurt her.

- Carl's tenure as
pastor in New York

was full of contradictions.

He positioned himself as a
progressive voice on race.

Later, Black congregants said

that they didn't feel
heard within the church.

He worked for a church that
preached purity culture,

that banned premarital sex.

Later, we found out that
he was having affairs.

- We've read reports of pastors
who were sleeping around.

You had pastors who were not
living what they were teaching.

- After Carl was fired in
this spectacular public way,

Hillsong commissioned
an investigation

into its East Coast branches.

In that investigation, there
was a claim by a junior staffer

at the New York branch,
who said that Reed Bogard,

who was one of the top pastors
at Hillsong, had raped her.

- Reed Bogard, who's a
part of the foundation

to Hillsong New York and
then again in Hillsong LA,

and they have moved to Dallas,

and are starting
Hillsong Dallas.

A few months
after that investigation,

Bogard resigned from
Hillsong Dallas.

- You know, the last 10 years

of being in church planting mode

has really taken a bit
of a toll on Jess and I

and our family, and
we just really feel

like it's time to
transition off of our staff

and take some time to
remain healthy, get healthy,

and to really see what this
next season holds for us.

At the time
when he stepped down,

he made no mention of any of
these allegations against him.

Brian Houston also
made no mention

of the allegations
against Bogard.

He essentially said, "thank
you for your service."

- Thank God for
Pastor Reed and Jess,

and of course all of our faithful
volunteers and team there.

The devil's press strategies
are not gonna win.

His weapons will not prosper.

Bobbie and I are proud
of you and we love you,

and we believe in
God's best for you.

- A lot like Carl, Reed had
been handpicked by Brian.

When you see it
over and over again,

it's not just Carl and
it's not just Reed Bogard.

It's like the person at the top.

Like you have to
look at that person.

Brian even says it, you
catch the culture in Sydney,

you go to Sydney, you
go to Hillsong College,

and you are
indoctrinated into this,

the system of, you know,
violation, abuse and coverup.

It's just how the place works.

There was an
entrenched cultural narrative

around Hillsong that was
really hard to pierce.

I don't think it was until
that was sort of punctured

by Carl cheating that there
was really an opportunity

to look what was
actually happening

in the church on a
day-to-day basis.

Carl was problematic,

but there was also
a concerted effort

to paint him as
the one bad apple,

the problem at the root of
all of Hillsong's problems.

The final nail in the coffin
was Brian on the "Today Show."

- Carl was Carl. He's
unique character.

There's a lot of things
I miss about Carl,

but having said that, there
were leadership issues

it included lying,

included what I would call
narcissistic behavior.

In my mind, if one
person is treated badly,

that's one too many.

I don't think Carl really
is anything like me.

My job initially
was to write about

what was gonna happen with
this mega superstar pastor.

- He was like, he is good.
He was good yesterday.

He's good now. He's
gonna be good tomorrow.

And then
Carl just disappeared.

One minute Carl was everywhere.

The next, he was gone.

We reached out
and have no comment from Carl,

Laura and Hillsong Church.

This is Carl
Lentz interview, take one.

ABV common mark.

- Cool.
- Whenever you're ready.

So whenever you're ready,
Carl, just introduce yourself,

your connection to Hillsong

and why you're sitting
in the interview today.

- Yeah.

I really don't wanna
mess up my TV makeup,

ah, at all.

Right here.

- Okay. Yeah.

Okay.

Sorry. Let's just-

- Take a breath.

- I'm good, yeah.

I'm so nervous about how
this is gonna be portrayed,

but I cannot control that.

So God, grant me the serenity

to accept the documentary
things I cannot change

and the courage to change
the things that I can,

and the wisdom to
know the difference.

You do not want to
be in this chair.

I cannot stress it enough.

If you believe right,
you will stay right.

If you stay right,
you will walk right.

Put your hand up,
rededicate your life to him.

Christians, praise.

Anybody else and you are
disconnected from God,

and you are sick of it.