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The trial of a Plainville woman
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accused of encouraging
her friend to kill himself
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through text messages
is now underway.
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Michelle Carteris on trial for manslaughter
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to decide if text messages she sentcrossed a legal line
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and whether she shouldbe held responsible
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for her boyfriend's decisionto take his own life.
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"His death was my fault.I could have stopped him.
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I was on the phone with him,
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and he got out of the carbecause it was working.
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He got scared, and I fucking told him
to get back in."
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The defendant's own words.
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Seventeen-year-old Michelle Carter,
who, for weeks, badgered-- berated--
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her depressed boyfriend
Conrad Roy, 18 years old,
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into killing himself.
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And on July 12, 2014,
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as his truck was fillingwith carbon monoxide,
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he was scared.
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He got out.
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It was the defendant,
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on the other end of the phone,
who ordered him back in,
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then listened for 20 minutes
as he cried in pain,
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took his last breaths, and died.
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She assisted and devised and advisedand planned his suicide.
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She reasoned himout of his reservations.
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She told him that once he was dead,
he would be free and happy.
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She pushed him to kill himself
sooner rather than later.
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And she used Conrad as a pawn
in her sick game of life and death.
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818 to all cars in station....
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He never was the type of kid
to not ever come home.
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So...
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I knew that morning
that there was something... wrong.
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And I felt this rush
go through my body
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that I've never felt in my life.
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And I felt like he just
passed through me.
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I've never felt that feeling
in my life.
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It was just, like,
the most chilling feeling.
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Stand by.I'm looking for it.
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I have it in here somewhere.
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We were sitting
on the porch right here, and, um...
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a friend of the family...
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called my dad and...
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told him that his truck had, uh,
caution tape around it
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at the, uh, Fairhaven K-Mart.
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And we, uh, got in the car
and drove over there.
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POLICE DISPATCHER 2:
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...please.
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We pulled
into the K-Mart parking lot
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and you saw the truck
and you saw the yellow tape.
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And he just put it in park,
he's like, "I can't go up there."
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Conrad Sr. was driving back out,
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and he pulled up next to Co,
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and he just said,
"He's gone, Co. He's dead."
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And he--
Co just broke down,
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and we both...
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It was just like,
"He's dead. He did it."
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It was horrible. I just...
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just went and cried...
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like, you know...
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for days.
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Did you go to the K-Mart?
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No. Mm-mm.
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I think if I would have saw him
or been with his body,
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it would--
I don't think I would've left.
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I am...
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Generally, in cases wherethere is an untimely passing,
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we review dispatch logs, police logs.
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It's for us to keep up and see
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if there's anything we have to
follow up on.
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I came across their reportsrelated to Conrad Roy's death.
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Collectively, within our officeour thought was,
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you know, why would someone18 years old take his own life?
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Everyone's life is withintheir phone these days.
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At the timein which Conrad was located,
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his phone was dead.
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So, there was this-- some discussion
as to whether or not to take it or not.
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But the people assigned
to the case that day
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decided to-- to take the phone.
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And there wasn't-- at that point,
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it didn't seem like
there was a ton of reason
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to get into the phone other than
to try to come up with an answer
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of why an 18-year-old-boy
would have killed himself.
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No one knew about
what had actually occurred.
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I opened the phone, and I wentright to the message part of the phone,
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and there was only thread open.
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And it said Michelle Carter, at which
time I had no idea that meant anything.
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Uh, and then when I clicked on--
to open that actual conversation,
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it was quickly where I realized
that the text messages were
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disturbing in nature.
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Glenn was sittingacross from me at his desk,
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and at one point, I was like,"Guys," you know, "you gotta see this."
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And as I continued to readis when we, uh,
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ended up thinking thatwe should probably contact
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the DA's office just to let them know
what we had found.
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It was justconstant encouragement
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to take his life.
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Almost demandingthat he take his life.
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It was awful.
It was awful to think
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that there was somebody
that could actually
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push somebody towards suicide
like that,
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especially someone that young.
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At that point, the big thing
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was trying to figure outwho Michelle Carter was.
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It is 5:51 on October 2nd.
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We're talking to Michelle Carterat King Philip High School.
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Um, Michelle, the reasonwhy we came out here is
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we were looking intoConrad's unfortunate passing.
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- All right?- Yeah.
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Did you have contact with him
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the day right up untilhe-- he-- he passed?
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Did you--
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Do you think you had contactwith him that day?
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Um...
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Yeah? Did he-- did he tell you
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he was gonna do thator anything like that?
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Um...
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- Yeah?- And...
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Mm-hmm.
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- What would?- Of like just...
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Okay.
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Is that-- is that your phone?Is that the phone you had?
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Yeah. It's my phone.It's kind of broken.
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-Oh, it is?-Uh, well, the screen--
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-Is this password protected?-Yeah.
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What's-- Do you knowthe password so I can...
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Um...
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Here you go.
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Um...
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Okay? So, we'll be taking it.
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Wait, so...you're taking my phone?
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-Yes.-Do I get it back?
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At some point,you will, yeah.
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- Okay.- Okay?
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Her phone downloadwas approximately 60,000 items.
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There was pictures,there was voicemails,
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there was call logs,there was text messages,
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chats through Facebook.
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We each grabbed a copy of itand went home at night
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and read about a thousand
text messages each.
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And we came back the next morning,
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and I still remember that
we looked at each other,
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and I don't know if I said it first
or he said it first, but it was...
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"If it wasn't for her,
he's alive today."
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I think at that point
we really realized
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that we had something
that was criminal.
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Court's in session.
Be seated. Please remain quiet.
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When she was arrestedand the texts came out,
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we were just shocked.
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I mean, it was just so heinous.
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"When are you gonna do it?
Stop ignoring the question.
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Question mark, question mark,
question mark, question mark.
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You can't keep pushing it off.
Are you gonna do it tonight?"
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And she keeps at him, Your Honor.
At him and at him to do it.
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It was almost the same feelingas finding out that he died.
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It's like an out-of-body experience.
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Like reading it, it's like,
"This can't be real.
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Is this-- Am I dreaming?"
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It's like reading a novel, or--
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It's not something that happens
in your family.
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The more we read,it was just like...
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"You've got to be kidding."
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We want to rip her face off right now.
Like, we are so angry.
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Carter wassending hundreds of texts
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urging the teen to kill himselfright up until his final moments.
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Carter encouragedand even guided Roy.
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That really caught
a lot of people's attention.
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"Go ahead and do it.
Do it, babe.
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Why haven't you done it yet?"
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What is that puss on her face?
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Hold on. Back it up, Liz.
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Okay, hold everything.
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Police sayat one point, before Roy died,
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he got scared, got out of the truck,and called Carter.
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Carter told him to get back in.
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Hi. This is Conrad Roy.
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And I'm gonna talk to you
about social anxiety.
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For me, social anxiety feels...
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like it's overwhelming my life.
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Like, everything does not
revolve around me.
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And now I want to take steps
to control it.
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And the first thing I want to do...
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is be more proactive
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in a social environment,
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try to contribute to conversation
as well as I can,
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and just be more confident in myself
and my ability to...
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retract my knowledge.
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'Cause I--
I feel like I'm a smart man.
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I'm 18 years old,
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and I still haven't recovered
from social anxiety, depression.
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It's controlling me.
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A lot of people tell me that
I have a lot going for me.
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I have to be happy,
I have to be happy.
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Well, no, you don't have to be happy.
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There's people that love me.
I have a great mom.
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Great dad, for the most part.
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But I'm so depressed.
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Feel like I'm differently wired
from everyone else.
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Like there's something
wrong with me.
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The serotonin in my head is gone.
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And to replace it with dopamine,
or...
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another controlled substance,
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but if I keep talking--
keep talking--
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it's gonna get better.
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My son, when he was born,
he was the first one hatched.
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And we named-- I said, "Oh my God,
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He looks just like me.
Another Conrad."
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And then when Co, my son,
had his son, first one,
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he says, "Oh my God,
he looks like just me."
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And we named him Conrad.
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When they cameout of the hospital with C3,
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they brought him downto the shipyard
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where I was getting ready to leave.
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And at three days old,
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I had him in my hand,
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and we did an assist job
bringing a tanker in to New Bedford.
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We've got pictures of him,even when it was a little ship,
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that, uh, he was there.
I mean, you know...
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not really knowing what to do
or how to do it,
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but he was there.
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And it's, um...
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I've had some great memories
of that.
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Some real great memories.
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And... I'm sorry.
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Our family, we work in the waterand we play in the water.
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When he was younger, he definitelyliked being on the sailboats
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and being in, like,the pleasure boats.
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When he got a little bit older,
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we would take him onsome salvage jobs.
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And then, in his, like, junior year,
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he worked with me full time.
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I suppose it wasn't the same
since we got, you know,
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divorced, you know?
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It was a little-- It was
different for all of us, so...
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I mean, every child, um...
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has difficulty with a divorce.
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They always ultimately
want their parents to be together.
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It was during high school, um,and it was when, like,
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he started school back up again.
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We didn't notice it right away,
but his grades were slipping
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and he was saying he was having,
like, a tough time staying focused,
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and, um...
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He said he-- he said he was
having, like, racing thoughts,
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and he said he was, like,
losing his memory.
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We were bringing him to, uh,
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you know, all these doctorsand, you know, psychiatrists,
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and trying to figure out,you know, what was going wrong.
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If my kids are happy, I'm happy.
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So, the fact that my son wasn't...
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it destroyed my soul
for a while.
250
00:19:35,022 --> 00:19:37,650
What I am doing is...
251
00:19:38,985 --> 00:19:41,989
I'm looking at myself so negatively.
252
00:19:42,156 --> 00:19:45,410
Look at myself,
minuscule little particle...
253
00:19:46,870 --> 00:19:48,539
on the face of this earth.
254
00:19:48,706 --> 00:19:52,669
It's no good. Trash.
Will never be successful.
255
00:19:52,836 --> 00:19:55,548
It was really tough
to watch him go through that.
256
00:19:59,261 --> 00:20:02,140
Like, he didn't--
he didn't know what to, like,
257
00:20:02,306 --> 00:20:04,768
who to sit with at school
at times, and, uh...
258
00:20:04,935 --> 00:20:08,022
It's just heartbreaking as a parent.
259
00:20:10,442 --> 00:20:12,236
And then, you know,
some kids would pick on him,
260
00:20:12,403 --> 00:20:13,821
you know, and uh...
261
00:20:16,032 --> 00:20:17,617
Listen.
262
00:20:23,333 --> 00:20:25,836
I just have to get the cobwebs out.
263
00:20:27,088 --> 00:20:28,965
Turn the gears.
264
00:20:29,132 --> 00:20:31,760
The gears need to be turning.
265
00:20:31,927 --> 00:20:33,513
Turn them gears.
266
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,519
That's what I gotta do.
267
00:20:38,686 --> 00:20:40,229
I wish that...
268
00:20:41,564 --> 00:20:43,817
I would have seen more.
269
00:20:44,860 --> 00:20:48,323
I wish I would've
picked up more signs
270
00:20:48,490 --> 00:20:50,325
that week, that day.
271
00:20:52,453 --> 00:20:56,542
If I knew he was feeling
or thinking that way,
272
00:20:57,626 --> 00:21:01,089
yeah, I would have had him
handcuffed to, probably to a uh,
273
00:21:01,256 --> 00:21:05,136
to my car and brought him
to a hospital.
274
00:21:07,264 --> 00:21:08,807
But he just, like--
275
00:21:08,974 --> 00:21:11,102
I just thought he was doing well.
276
00:21:11,269 --> 00:21:13,438
He seemed like he wasjust on the right track.
277
00:21:13,605 --> 00:21:16,776
It seemed like everythingwas, like, getting better.
278
00:21:16,942 --> 00:21:21,907
Um... And he was, um,
you know,
279
00:21:22,074 --> 00:21:24,452
able to get his captain's license
and he was, like,
280
00:21:24,619 --> 00:21:26,788
seemed to be like really wanting
to, uh,
281
00:21:26,955 --> 00:21:28,791
you know, learn, like, the business.
282
00:21:30,543 --> 00:21:33,046
I mean,when he came in the living room
283
00:21:33,213 --> 00:21:35,591
and he-- he--
284
00:21:35,758 --> 00:21:38,344
He shows me
his captain's license,
285
00:21:38,511 --> 00:21:40,931
and it was like,
"You must be shitting me, Co."
286
00:21:41,098 --> 00:21:45,020
You know, I mean, not that I was one
to shy on words, but I mean...
287
00:21:45,186 --> 00:21:48,899
I said, "Are you shitting me?
You got it already?"
288
00:21:49,066 --> 00:21:51,736
He says, "Yeah, look at it."
You know?
289
00:21:51,903 --> 00:21:56,618
That was-- It was just
a few weeks before he-- he died.
290
00:21:56,784 --> 00:21:59,413
What caused Conrad's death?
291
00:22:05,087 --> 00:22:07,131
I would say-- I would say
it's Michelle Carter.
292
00:22:33,331 --> 00:22:35,125
They met in Florida,
293
00:22:35,291 --> 00:22:37,711
when we were visiting my great aunt.
294
00:22:37,878 --> 00:22:39,922
She has a place down there,
295
00:22:40,089 --> 00:22:42,843
like, this country club type thing,
296
00:22:43,010 --> 00:22:46,389
and her--
Michelle's grandparents do too.
297
00:22:46,556 --> 00:22:48,850
Um, and they were friends.
298
00:22:49,017 --> 00:22:53,189
Like, so, like, February vacation,
299
00:22:53,356 --> 00:22:55,943
when Michelle's family
and my family--
300
00:22:56,109 --> 00:22:59,489
well, Conrad's family--
were both down there,
301
00:22:59,656 --> 00:23:04,120
my aunt introduced Michelle
and Conrad to each other.
302
00:23:04,286 --> 00:23:08,750
And like, I don't know, they went, like,
on a bike ride together.
303
00:23:32,197 --> 00:23:36,035
I would say the relationship between
Michelle Carter and Conrad Roy
304
00:23:36,202 --> 00:23:38,705
is a thoroughly modern romance.
Right?
305
00:23:38,872 --> 00:23:42,585
It's a romance conducted
almost entirely online.
306
00:23:44,379 --> 00:23:46,214
They met maybe five times.
307
00:23:47,424 --> 00:23:50,220
That's why I didn't know they
were boyfriend and girlfriend.
308
00:23:50,386 --> 00:23:52,055
I never saw her.
309
00:23:52,222 --> 00:23:54,642
I mean I-- I saw him
text her all the time,
310
00:23:54,809 --> 00:23:57,103
you know, on his phone.
But...
311
00:23:57,270 --> 00:24:01,818
I didn't think that they had
a relationship like that.
312
00:24:04,780 --> 00:24:08,993
They had, in fact, exchanged thousandsupon thousands of messages...
313
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:10,537
...and had this sort of intimacy
314
00:24:10,704 --> 00:24:13,624
without ever reallyseeing each other.
315
00:24:13,791 --> 00:24:16,086
They're having this
secret relationship
316
00:24:16,252 --> 00:24:20,424
that is totally destructive, um,
to their mental health.
317
00:24:26,682 --> 00:24:29,227
Attorneys for Michelle Carterdo not deny the evidence.
318
00:24:29,394 --> 00:24:31,772
They do not denythe text messages, et cetera.
319
00:24:31,939 --> 00:24:33,441
Instead, what they say
is that even though
320
00:24:33,608 --> 00:24:35,652
her conduct may be reprehensible,
321
00:24:35,819 --> 00:24:37,446
they say it is not criminal,
and therefore,
322
00:24:37,613 --> 00:24:39,824
she should not be charged
with manslaughter
323
00:24:39,991 --> 00:24:42,035
in connection with the suicide
of her boyfriend.
324
00:24:43,954 --> 00:24:46,791
Whether it's the right thing,
the wrong thing,
325
00:24:46,958 --> 00:24:48,835
the moral thing, the immoral thing,
326
00:24:49,002 --> 00:24:52,507
what I'm certain of
is it wasn't a crime.
327
00:24:54,134 --> 00:24:56,261
There's no law that criminalizes
328
00:24:56,428 --> 00:24:58,347
encouragement of suicidein Massachusetts,
329
00:24:58,514 --> 00:25:00,475
and now the district attorney'soffice says,
330
00:25:00,642 --> 00:25:02,728
even though our legislature
331
00:25:02,895 --> 00:25:05,481
has not criminalized
that behavior with the law,
332
00:25:05,648 --> 00:25:08,318
we're gonna prosecute her
with a homicide.
333
00:25:10,446 --> 00:25:13,158
The idea that your speech alone
334
00:25:13,325 --> 00:25:16,287
in the way of text messagesand words in the telephone
335
00:25:16,454 --> 00:25:18,915
can equal a manslaughter charge,
336
00:25:19,082 --> 00:25:21,418
I think, is a dangerous,
dangerous precedent.
337
00:25:28,844 --> 00:25:33,350
SJC-12043.
Commonwealth vs. Michelle Carter.
338
00:25:33,517 --> 00:25:34,977
Good morning.
339
00:25:35,144 --> 00:25:37,021
Good morning, Mr. Curhan.
Why don't you get us going?
340
00:25:37,188 --> 00:25:39,483
We contend that
verbally encouraging someone
341
00:25:39,650 --> 00:25:43,363
to commit suicide, no matter
how forceful the encouragement,
342
00:25:43,529 --> 00:25:46,033
does not constitute a crime
in Massachusetts.
343
00:25:46,199 --> 00:25:50,079
So, the person has a gun and says,
344
00:25:50,246 --> 00:25:52,249
"I am going to kill myself."
345
00:25:52,416 --> 00:25:55,127
-Right? And you're saying, "Good."
-Yes.
346
00:25:55,294 --> 00:25:58,131
"Good, good. Go for it, do it."
"Ah, I don't know."
347
00:25:58,298 --> 00:26:01,260
"No, no. Come on. Come on.
Pull the trigger."
348
00:26:01,427 --> 00:26:03,096
Is-- Does that step over the line?
349
00:26:03,263 --> 00:26:05,140
- I don't think so.
- Or is that still... okay?
350
00:26:05,307 --> 00:26:07,309
I don't think
verbally encouraging someone--
351
00:26:07,476 --> 00:26:09,437
I don't think that
would be a crime.
352
00:26:09,604 --> 00:26:12,232
Wait. I mean-- You mean
if somebody solicits a murder?
353
00:26:12,399 --> 00:26:14,736
-Uh, if somebody solicits--
-We get that all the time.
354
00:26:14,902 --> 00:26:17,322
That would odd because
there's an underlying crime.
355
00:26:17,489 --> 00:26:18,866
- Right. Right.
- ...of murder.
356
00:26:19,033 --> 00:26:21,870
You see, the-- Part of the problem
is that Massachusetts doesn't--
357
00:26:22,036 --> 00:26:23,497
is one of eleven states
that doesn't have a--
358
00:26:23,663 --> 00:26:26,751
a statute addressing this--
this type of behavior,
359
00:26:26,918 --> 00:26:28,294
that-- encouraging suicide.
360
00:26:28,461 --> 00:26:31,215
But we do have an involuntary
manslaughter statute,
361
00:26:31,382 --> 00:26:33,968
which talks about
wanton and reckless conduct
362
00:26:34,135 --> 00:26:38,098
resulting in the death,
causing the death, of someone.
363
00:26:38,265 --> 00:26:39,809
And, at some point,
364
00:26:39,976 --> 00:26:44,148
can verbal action
become wanton and reckless
365
00:26:44,315 --> 00:26:45,942
if it results in someone's death?
366
00:26:46,109 --> 00:26:47,610
The problem is that, uh,
367
00:26:47,777 --> 00:26:51,991
the death was caused
by the victim himself.
368
00:26:52,158 --> 00:26:53,994
He's the one who got the generator,
369
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,372
who drove to the location,
who set it up in the truck,
370
00:26:56,538 --> 00:26:58,374
who turned it on,
and who got in the truck.
371
00:26:58,541 --> 00:27:01,294
So, I'm in the truck, and I'm dying.
372
00:27:01,461 --> 00:27:04,173
And I deci-- I have to get out.
I get out.
373
00:27:04,340 --> 00:27:06,176
And I call my friend,
374
00:27:06,342 --> 00:27:10,264
and my friend says,
"Get back in the truck.
375
00:27:10,431 --> 00:27:11,849
Kill yourself."
376
00:27:12,016 --> 00:27:14,561
That's not enough?
That's just talk?
377
00:27:14,728 --> 00:27:16,647
If she was physically present
378
00:27:16,814 --> 00:27:21,236
and she said, "Get back in the truck
or I'll put you back in there myself,"
379
00:27:21,403 --> 00:27:25,659
or, here, another example,
standing on the edge of a bridge.
380
00:27:25,825 --> 00:27:28,579
"Jump off that bridge
or I will push you."
381
00:27:28,746 --> 00:27:30,748
The, uh, "or I will push you"
382
00:27:30,915 --> 00:27:32,918
would probably take that
over the line.
383
00:27:33,085 --> 00:27:34,879
But "jump off the bridge" would not.
384
00:27:35,045 --> 00:27:37,006
It doesn't matter
how persistent she is.
385
00:27:37,173 --> 00:27:40,844
It doesn't matter how reprehensible
we might think her conduct is.
386
00:27:41,011 --> 00:27:43,932
It simply isn't a crime,
and it was not at the time,
387
00:27:44,099 --> 00:27:46,852
and we can't make it a crime
retroactively.
388
00:27:47,770 --> 00:27:49,230
Unless there are
any further questions,
389
00:27:49,397 --> 00:27:50,940
I'll leave the remaining points
to the brief.
390
00:27:51,107 --> 00:27:52,484
Thank you, counselor.
391
00:28:01,454 --> 00:28:03,373
I've been doing this
for 25 years now.
392
00:28:03,540 --> 00:28:05,125
I read the law. I understand it.
393
00:28:05,292 --> 00:28:08,337
And it's not a case that
should've ever been brought.
394
00:28:08,504 --> 00:28:11,216
And it's gonna have
a potential chilling effect
395
00:28:11,383 --> 00:28:12,843
on free speech rights
396
00:28:13,010 --> 00:28:16,014
about whether or not people
can openly discuss suicide
397
00:28:16,181 --> 00:28:18,100
and encourage it between loved ones.
398
00:28:18,267 --> 00:28:20,520
This case will set precedent.
399
00:28:22,021 --> 00:28:23,565
I'm not someone, generally,
400
00:28:23,732 --> 00:28:26,777
who's in favor of expandingthe scope of the criminal law,
401
00:28:26,944 --> 00:28:29,155
but I have to say,
in reading those messages,
402
00:28:29,322 --> 00:28:31,241
it just seemed clear that
403
00:28:31,408 --> 00:28:33,703
she was trying to exert
404
00:28:33,870 --> 00:28:36,164
some real influence
over his behavior.
405
00:28:52,518 --> 00:28:54,563
I would really strugglewith the question
406
00:28:54,729 --> 00:28:57,149
of whether the kind of
psychological pressure
407
00:28:57,316 --> 00:29:01,321
Michelle Carter appeared to be
applying and a part of
408
00:29:01,488 --> 00:29:03,449
could have the same impact
409
00:29:03,616 --> 00:29:06,369
as physically assisting someone
with the suicide.
410
00:29:10,207 --> 00:29:12,836
She was 40 miles awayon a telephone.
411
00:29:13,003 --> 00:29:15,839
He could've stayed out of the car.He could a hung up the telephone.
412
00:29:16,006 --> 00:29:17,884
So, there's no coercion here.
413
00:29:51,718 --> 00:29:53,637
My name is Jesse Barron,
414
00:29:53,804 --> 00:29:56,850
and I covered the Michelle Carter case
for Esquire Magazine.
415
00:29:57,017 --> 00:29:58,393
I read an article about the case
416
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,689
in the South Coast Times
in the summer of 2016,
417
00:30:01,856 --> 00:30:05,068
and I went to a pretrial hearingin December.
418
00:30:05,235 --> 00:30:08,948
And I knew thatI had to write about it.
419
00:30:12,369 --> 00:30:17,709
On the first day of the trial,I was waiting up outside of--
420
00:30:17,876 --> 00:30:19,378
We had to pick up our press badges,
421
00:30:19,545 --> 00:30:22,757
and all the media's therekind of waiting to start the show.
422
00:30:24,426 --> 00:30:26,888
And at some moment,a few minutes after 9:00 AM,
423
00:30:27,055 --> 00:30:29,558
a TV producer whispered,
"Is that her?"
424
00:30:29,725 --> 00:30:32,228
And all heads turn.
425
00:30:32,395 --> 00:30:35,148
Michelle, wearinga white quilted car coat
426
00:30:35,315 --> 00:30:37,985
and high heels, is coming toward us.
427
00:30:38,152 --> 00:30:40,196
And there was this feeling of a...
428
00:30:40,363 --> 00:30:45,119
weird sort of inverse star power
that was put on her.
429
00:30:45,286 --> 00:30:48,206
She was thin. She was blonde.
430
00:30:48,373 --> 00:30:51,127
She was tanning-booth tan.
431
00:30:51,293 --> 00:30:54,381
It felt like she knew
she was gonna be photographed.
432
00:30:57,551 --> 00:30:58,970
Good morning, Miss Carter.
433
00:30:59,137 --> 00:31:00,722
Please remain standing
while you are sworn.
434
00:31:00,889 --> 00:31:03,225
Please raise your right hand.
In this matter before the court
435
00:31:03,392 --> 00:31:04,769
do you swear to tell the truth,
the whole truth,
436
00:31:04,936 --> 00:31:06,312
and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
437
00:31:06,479 --> 00:31:07,856
I do.
438
00:31:08,023 --> 00:31:09,900
Please take a seat
and make yourself comfortable.
439
00:31:10,067 --> 00:31:12,320
And please keep your voice up
nice and loud.
440
00:31:12,487 --> 00:31:15,532
Please state your full name and age.
441
00:31:15,699 --> 00:31:18,703
Michelle Diana Carter.
Uh, 20.
442
00:31:20,038 --> 00:31:21,707
So, you understand, Miss Carter,
443
00:31:21,874 --> 00:31:24,794
that you are fully entitled
under the Constitution
444
00:31:24,961 --> 00:31:29,675
to a jury of your peers to decide
445
00:31:29,842 --> 00:31:32,554
whether or not you are in fact
guilty of this crime?
446
00:31:32,721 --> 00:31:34,098
Yes.
447
00:31:34,264 --> 00:31:37,393
That is the right that you are giving up
with your testimony now.
448
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,187
Yes.
449
00:31:39,354 --> 00:31:41,857
All right.
Has anyone promised you anything
450
00:31:42,024 --> 00:31:44,235
or threatened you in any way
451
00:31:44,402 --> 00:31:47,907
to make you forgo your right
to a jury trial?
452
00:31:48,074 --> 00:31:49,450
No.
453
00:31:49,617 --> 00:31:51,244
Are you doing that
of your own free will,
454
00:31:51,411 --> 00:31:52,955
knowingly and voluntarily?
455
00:31:53,122 --> 00:31:56,000
-Yes.
-All right. Thank you very much.
456
00:31:56,167 --> 00:31:58,795
-You may step down.
-Thank you.
457
00:32:02,091 --> 00:32:03,885
It was a geniusdefense strategy here,
458
00:32:04,052 --> 00:32:06,472
especially doing itin the eleventh hour, uh,
459
00:32:06,639 --> 00:32:08,433
right before they were
supposed to select the jury.
460
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,438
Juries of your peers
often don't know the law
461
00:32:12,605 --> 00:32:14,106
as much as they know
their own emotions
462
00:32:14,273 --> 00:32:16,359
and how their own emotions
are applied to the facts
463
00:32:16,526 --> 00:32:20,198
that are put in front of them.
And sometimes emotions win the day.
464
00:32:20,364 --> 00:32:23,243
This has turned intoa matter of law.
465
00:32:23,410 --> 00:32:25,329
So, what Judge Moniz decides here:
466
00:32:25,496 --> 00:32:27,707
This is step one
of what is going to be
467
00:32:27,874 --> 00:32:30,168
a ever-evolving area of the law.
468
00:32:30,335 --> 00:32:32,672
Now, prosecutorscan show the judge--
469
00:32:32,839 --> 00:32:35,217
and more importantly,I believe, show the public
470
00:32:35,383 --> 00:32:37,177
exactly what happened here.
471
00:32:48,692 --> 00:32:53,156
I'm gonna be putting on the screen
a photograph.
472
00:32:58,788 --> 00:33:00,957
Can you tell us who we're seeing
in this photograph?
473
00:33:01,124 --> 00:33:02,584
Conrad.
474
00:33:04,003 --> 00:33:05,380
And how old
would Conrad have been
475
00:33:05,547 --> 00:33:07,257
in this photograph?
476
00:33:07,424 --> 00:33:09,426
Eighteen.
477
00:33:09,593 --> 00:33:11,846
I ask that be marked
as the next exhibit, please.
478
00:33:12,013 --> 00:33:13,473
-Is there an objection?
-No.
479
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:15,059
May be marked.
480
00:33:15,225 --> 00:33:17,645
Do you see Michelle Carter
present in the courtroom today?
481
00:33:17,812 --> 00:33:19,856
-Yes.
-Could you please point to her,
482
00:33:20,023 --> 00:33:21,984
identify something that she's
wearing?
483
00:33:23,444 --> 00:33:25,280
I don't know.
A red shirt, looks like.
484
00:33:25,447 --> 00:33:28,158
Your Honor, may the record reflect
identification of the defendant.
485
00:33:28,325 --> 00:33:30,161
Yes,
the record may so reflect.
486
00:33:32,205 --> 00:33:35,292
It's hardto see someone on the outside
487
00:33:35,459 --> 00:33:38,255
and then know them in the inside.
488
00:33:38,421 --> 00:33:40,215
I don't know,
I thought I was pretty...
489
00:33:40,382 --> 00:33:42,635
a pretty good judge of character.
490
00:33:42,802 --> 00:33:46,682
I don't know. But after that?
491
00:33:46,849 --> 00:33:50,395
I-- I-- It's-- It's very hard
for me to...
492
00:33:50,562 --> 00:33:52,773
understand someone, so...
493
00:33:58,822 --> 00:34:02,076
Michelle Carter was a suburban girl
494
00:34:02,243 --> 00:34:04,287
from a town called Plainvilleof 8,000.
495
00:34:05,873 --> 00:34:07,375
She was a good student.
496
00:34:07,542 --> 00:34:11,463
She was a polite, appealing teenager
497
00:34:11,630 --> 00:34:13,758
who adults felt respected by.
498
00:34:13,925 --> 00:34:17,179
So, outwardly, this was, like,
as straight white American
499
00:34:17,346 --> 00:34:20,266
suburban teenage life
as you can get.
500
00:34:20,433 --> 00:34:23,604
She was,in this small community,
501
00:34:23,770 --> 00:34:28,735
known as a really sweet,
caring young woman.
502
00:34:30,988 --> 00:34:34,743
This was a most unusual childwho, for whatever reason,
503
00:34:34,909 --> 00:34:38,789
wanted above all thingsto be helpful to other people.
504
00:34:41,585 --> 00:34:44,797
But then, when I got to reading
all those texts,
505
00:34:44,964 --> 00:34:48,802
I entered another world of Michelle
that I didn't know about.
506
00:34:59,691 --> 00:35:01,318
Later on that night,
507
00:35:01,485 --> 00:35:03,487
that's when you get
the text message from Michelle Carter?
508
00:35:03,654 --> 00:35:05,073
Yes.
509
00:35:06,449 --> 00:35:08,577
I'm now going to ask you
about the 13th.
510
00:35:08,744 --> 00:35:10,162
Okay.
511
00:35:10,329 --> 00:35:12,582
Do you recall getting
a text message that said...
512
00:35:12,749 --> 00:35:14,668
- "Find him yet?"- Mm-hmm.
513
00:35:14,835 --> 00:35:16,212
And you replied back, "No."
514
00:35:17,797 --> 00:35:20,884
And then, shortly after,Michelle Carter texted you,
515
00:35:21,051 --> 00:35:23,638
"Okay, just stay positive.Let me know."
516
00:35:23,805 --> 00:35:25,974
-Do you recall that?
-Mm-hmm.
517
00:35:26,141 --> 00:35:27,893
Had she told you
that she was with him
518
00:35:28,060 --> 00:35:29,437
-at all that night?
-No.
519
00:35:29,604 --> 00:35:31,231
Did she ever tell you
that she'd been on the phone
520
00:35:31,398 --> 00:35:32,983
-with your brother that night?
-No.
521
00:35:34,985 --> 00:35:36,654
On July 14th, do you recall
522
00:35:36,821 --> 00:35:38,448
getting a text messagefrom Michelle Carter
523
00:35:38,615 --> 00:35:39,992
saying...
524
00:35:48,294 --> 00:35:49,754
-Do you recall that?
-Yeah.
525
00:35:49,921 --> 00:35:52,216
Had she ever been to your house before
that you recall?
526
00:35:52,382 --> 00:35:54,510
No.
527
00:35:54,677 --> 00:35:57,681
I thought that shereally cared about him.
528
00:35:57,848 --> 00:36:00,601
You know, I told her, I said,
"I'm so glad
529
00:36:00,768 --> 00:36:04,231
that my son had someone like you
in his life."
530
00:36:05,816 --> 00:36:10,989
And I thought she was very, very sweetand compassionate and loving.
531
00:36:12,408 --> 00:36:14,786
I don't know.
Why would you ever think that...
532
00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:18,791
someone would think
the way she does?
533
00:36:31,432 --> 00:36:33,810
After you had told herthat his body was cremated,
534
00:36:33,977 --> 00:36:35,562
do you recall she replied to you...
535
00:36:45,491 --> 00:36:46,910
Do you recall that?
536
00:36:47,077 --> 00:36:49,037
- Yes.
- Did you think that was odd?
537
00:36:49,204 --> 00:36:50,831
A little.
538
00:36:50,998 --> 00:36:52,542
Were you concerned by that?
539
00:36:53,835 --> 00:36:55,546
A little.
540
00:36:56,922 --> 00:36:59,509
She messaged me
at some point and said,
541
00:36:59,676 --> 00:37:02,513
"You tried your hardest,
I tried my hardest."
542
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,518
I was like,
"Well, that's a red flag," you know?
543
00:37:06,685 --> 00:37:08,103
Excuse my language, but...
544
00:37:09,647 --> 00:37:11,357
What the fuck is she talking about?
545
00:37:11,524 --> 00:37:13,360
Like, I tried to save him?
546
00:37:14,778 --> 00:37:16,614
I had no idea
he was feeling that way.
547
00:37:20,577 --> 00:37:23,623
It's weird because before he passed,
548
00:37:23,790 --> 00:37:26,835
I told him, I said, "Conrad,"
I said, "Mom was a teenager.
549
00:37:27,002 --> 00:37:28,921
I know how girls can be.
550
00:37:29,088 --> 00:37:31,257
If you're pretty,
they can just smile
551
00:37:31,424 --> 00:37:33,969
and just, you know,
bat their eyelashes,
552
00:37:34,136 --> 00:37:36,139
and some boys
will be like, 'Woo.'"
553
00:37:36,305 --> 00:37:38,099
So...
554
00:37:38,266 --> 00:37:43,314
I said, "But girls can...
can be very manipulative."
555
00:37:43,481 --> 00:37:47,528
And uh, I never believed that my son
556
00:37:47,695 --> 00:37:51,575
would be taken advantage of
in the worst way possible.
557
00:37:57,165 --> 00:37:59,418
Who would do this and why?
558
00:37:59,585 --> 00:38:01,170
I would suggestthe evidence will show
559
00:38:01,337 --> 00:38:03,006
that the defendantwas a very needy person
560
00:38:03,173 --> 00:38:05,008
who craved attention.
561
00:38:05,175 --> 00:38:07,553
But she didn't havemany close friends.
562
00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:09,472
You're going to hearfrom some of the girls
563
00:38:09,639 --> 00:38:11,308
that knew her during high school.
564
00:38:11,475 --> 00:38:13,853
They will tell you thatshe texted them incessantly.
565
00:38:14,020 --> 00:38:16,606
She was trying to get close to themand be part of their lives,
566
00:38:16,773 --> 00:38:18,859
but these girls
had many things going on
567
00:38:19,026 --> 00:38:22,405
and they really didn't hang around
with her outside of school.
568
00:38:22,572 --> 00:38:24,992
So, in June of 2014,
569
00:38:25,159 --> 00:38:27,036
when the school yearwas coming to an end,
570
00:38:27,203 --> 00:38:31,292
the defendant needed something
to get their attention.
571
00:38:31,459 --> 00:38:33,294
Samantha Boardman, Your Honor.
572
00:38:35,255 --> 00:38:36,632
Now, in your junior year,
573
00:38:36,799 --> 00:38:39,469
did you meet someoneby the name of Michelle Carter?
574
00:38:39,636 --> 00:38:42,222
-Yes.
-Do you remember how you met her?
575
00:38:43,307 --> 00:38:48,689
She was in two of my classes,
I believe, um, or--
576
00:38:48,856 --> 00:38:51,984
So, I talked to her
in math class, I believe.
577
00:38:52,151 --> 00:38:55,239
-There's another witness?
-Olivia Mosolgo, please.
578
00:38:55,405 --> 00:38:56,782
All right.
579
00:38:57,825 --> 00:39:00,662
Would you consider yourselfa close friend with her in high school?
580
00:39:00,829 --> 00:39:03,082
We were close teammates, I would say.
581
00:39:03,249 --> 00:39:05,502
So, you were
more teammates, not friends?
582
00:39:05,668 --> 00:39:08,714
We were friends in the sense
that I was there for her
583
00:39:08,881 --> 00:39:10,758
when she was going
through things, and...
584
00:39:10,925 --> 00:39:12,427
- Okay.
- But not every day,
585
00:39:12,594 --> 00:39:13,971
- like, best friends...
- Would you go--
586
00:39:14,137 --> 00:39:15,723
On weekends,
would you hang out with her?
587
00:39:15,890 --> 00:39:17,266
- No.
- Uh, is it fair to say
588
00:39:17,433 --> 00:39:19,770
that she expressed to you
that she felt like she had no friends?
589
00:39:19,936 --> 00:39:21,313
Yes.
590
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:22,982
And did she send
text messages to you about that?
591
00:39:23,149 --> 00:39:24,901
Yes.
592
00:39:25,068 --> 00:39:27,863
Okay.
593
00:39:28,030 --> 00:39:30,617
Do you recall getting that text
message from Michelle Carter?
594
00:39:30,784 --> 00:39:32,703
Yes.
595
00:39:32,869 --> 00:39:35,122
Lexie Eblan, please.
596
00:39:35,289 --> 00:39:37,292
Please describe your relationship
597
00:39:37,459 --> 00:39:39,253
with Michelle Carter, if--if you had any.
598
00:39:39,419 --> 00:39:42,215
It was mostlyan in-school friendship.
599
00:39:42,382 --> 00:39:46,804
Um... Mostly just, like,
talking in school and stuff.
600
00:39:46,971 --> 00:39:49,265
Um, that was kind of, like,
the extent.
601
00:39:49,432 --> 00:39:51,351
And during those first
couple of years of high school,
602
00:39:51,518 --> 00:39:54,605
would you ever socialize with
Michelle Carter outside of high school?
603
00:39:54,772 --> 00:39:56,191
Outside of seeing her
in a classroom?
604
00:39:56,358 --> 00:39:57,818
I don't believe I did.
605
00:39:57,985 --> 00:40:01,364
Did Michelle Carter ask you
to do things during that junior year
606
00:40:01,531 --> 00:40:03,116
- via text?
- Definitely.
607
00:40:03,283 --> 00:40:06,328
Probably a couple,a few times a week.
608
00:40:08,039 --> 00:40:09,416
And what was your usual answer?
609
00:40:09,583 --> 00:40:13,963
That I was working
or had something else to do, or no.
610
00:40:16,007 --> 00:40:17,968
And as school is ending,
611
00:40:18,135 --> 00:40:20,096
were there any talksbetween you and Michelle
612
00:40:20,263 --> 00:40:21,973
about doing things over the summer?
613
00:40:22,140 --> 00:40:24,852
Um, I believe Michelle asked us,
614
00:40:25,019 --> 00:40:27,063
but I'm not sure
if we had any plans.
615
00:40:27,230 --> 00:40:30,442
In your mind, did you have any plans
to hang out with her over the summer?
616
00:40:30,609 --> 00:40:32,612
Not really.
617
00:41:10,660 --> 00:41:12,746
She knew her planto get attention would work
618
00:41:12,913 --> 00:41:15,207
because she pre-tested it.
619
00:41:15,374 --> 00:41:19,337
On July 10, two days before
Conrad committed suicide,
620
00:41:19,504 --> 00:41:21,048
she did a "dry run,"
621
00:41:21,215 --> 00:41:24,427
texting several girls
that Conrad had gone missing
622
00:41:24,594 --> 00:41:27,890
while simultaneously
texting and talking with Conrad,
623
00:41:28,057 --> 00:41:30,643
telling him to go
get the gas machine.
624
00:41:39,947 --> 00:41:42,659
The girls immediately responded,
texting concern,
625
00:41:42,825 --> 00:41:46,580
asking if the police were involved,
and again, the defendant lied.
626
00:41:49,501 --> 00:41:53,547
She also tells her friend thatit's her fault that he killed himself.
627
00:41:58,929 --> 00:42:03,059
They, again, offering her comfort,tell her it's not her fault.
628
00:42:05,855 --> 00:42:08,525
They are paying attention to her now.
629
00:42:08,691 --> 00:42:10,235
So, she has to make it happen.
630
00:42:10,402 --> 00:42:12,321
She has to make him kill himself
631
00:42:12,488 --> 00:42:14,407
so that she continues
to get that attention
632
00:42:14,574 --> 00:42:16,952
and not be known as a liar.
633
00:42:17,119 --> 00:42:20,289
She has to be
the grieving girlfriend
634
00:42:20,456 --> 00:42:24,128
to get the sympathy and the attention
that she believes she deserves.
635
00:42:48,742 --> 00:42:52,997
The next day,
7-13-2014,
636
00:42:53,164 --> 00:42:56,335
do you get a message
from Michelle Carter?
637
00:42:56,502 --> 00:42:58,963
-Yes.
-What does she ask you?
638
00:42:59,130 --> 00:43:02,217
"Can we do something tonight
to get my mind off of it?"
639
00:43:02,384 --> 00:43:03,803
So, on the night of the twelfth,
640
00:43:03,970 --> 00:43:06,097
she texts you that
Conrad killed himself, correct?
641
00:43:06,264 --> 00:43:08,308
- Yes.
- Okay. And then the next day,
642
00:43:08,475 --> 00:43:10,102
she asks you if you want to hang out?
643
00:43:10,269 --> 00:43:11,688
Yes.
644
00:43:15,192 --> 00:43:18,863
In the days following Conrad's death,she sought attention and sympathy,
645
00:43:19,030 --> 00:43:22,284
posting frequently on Facebookabout how she missed him.
646
00:43:23,244 --> 00:43:25,580
People started texting her,consoling her,
647
00:43:25,747 --> 00:43:28,334
visiting her, and she suddenlybecame important.
648
00:43:32,214 --> 00:43:33,924
What did you do,after you heard that?
649
00:43:34,091 --> 00:43:35,760
I went to see her.
650
00:43:35,927 --> 00:43:38,388
And was that somethingthat you would normally do?
651
00:43:38,555 --> 00:43:40,474
It's something I would normally do
for a friend that was having
652
00:43:40,641 --> 00:43:42,059
-a difficult time--
-No, I'm asking you
653
00:43:42,226 --> 00:43:43,603
would you normally do that
for Michelle Carter?
654
00:43:43,770 --> 00:43:45,981
-Go to her house?
-No. Not usually.
655
00:43:46,148 --> 00:43:49,068
And why, on this particular day,
did you decide to go to her house?
656
00:43:49,235 --> 00:43:50,737
Because I would probably want
657
00:43:50,904 --> 00:43:52,448
someone to be with me
if that happened.
658
00:43:52,614 --> 00:43:54,742
So, you felt
that she needed your comfort?
659
00:43:54,909 --> 00:43:56,328
Yes.
660
00:43:56,494 --> 00:43:59,331
Did you observe people comforting her
661
00:43:59,498 --> 00:44:00,917
- in the days that followed?
- Yes.
662
00:44:01,084 --> 00:44:04,546
-And was that more than normal?
-Yes.
663
00:44:04,713 --> 00:44:08,051
And at some point, did youlearn about something called
664
00:44:08,218 --> 00:44:09,636
- Homers for Conrad?- Yes.
665
00:44:09,803 --> 00:44:11,180
How did youcome to learn about that?
666
00:44:11,347 --> 00:44:14,225
It was on Facebook
and she told me about it.
667
00:44:14,392 --> 00:44:15,810
Do you recallgetting this text message?
668
00:44:15,977 --> 00:44:17,813
Could you please read it for us?
669
00:44:23,070 --> 00:44:25,531
-Did you check it out?
-Yes.
670
00:44:25,698 --> 00:44:28,702
Homers for Conradwas a tournament
671
00:44:28,869 --> 00:44:32,290
that Michelle was putting onin Conrad's honor
672
00:44:32,457 --> 00:44:35,419
to raise moneyfor mental health awareness.
673
00:44:38,172 --> 00:44:39,799
I was curious as to why
the tournament
674
00:44:39,966 --> 00:44:42,553
was being held in Plainville
and not in Mattapoisett.
675
00:44:42,720 --> 00:44:44,388
Why were you curious about that?
676
00:44:44,555 --> 00:44:46,140
'Cause all of Conrad's
family and friends
677
00:44:46,307 --> 00:44:48,226
are from Mattapoisett.
678
00:44:53,108 --> 00:44:54,610
Did you relay to her that you thought
679
00:44:54,776 --> 00:44:57,280
it made more senseto have it in Mattapoisett
680
00:44:57,446 --> 00:44:59,407
where Conrad'sfriends and family are?
681
00:44:59,574 --> 00:45:01,368
Yes.
682
00:45:11,005 --> 00:45:12,966
And how did she respond
to you wanting, suggesting,
683
00:45:13,133 --> 00:45:14,593
that maybe it should be moved
to be more convenient
684
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:18,056
-for his friends and family?
-She wasn't willing to move it.
685
00:45:22,478 --> 00:45:25,774
When I kept asking about it,she wanted to make clear
686
00:45:25,941 --> 00:45:28,194
that she was getting creditfor all this,
687
00:45:28,361 --> 00:45:30,405
which I had no problem with.
688
00:45:33,701 --> 00:45:35,536
Given that she wasn'twilling to move it, sir,
689
00:45:35,703 --> 00:45:37,163
what did you do?
690
00:45:37,330 --> 00:45:39,249
I went to the tournament.
691
00:45:41,085 --> 00:45:43,672
And at some point,did Miss Carter ask that
692
00:45:43,838 --> 00:45:45,924
her photograph be takenwith some of the teams?
693
00:45:46,091 --> 00:45:47,760
Yes.
694
00:45:47,927 --> 00:45:51,056
Is that a fair and accurate depiction
of a team photo with your team,
695
00:45:51,223 --> 00:45:53,225
uh, having won,
and Miss Carter in the middle?
696
00:45:53,392 --> 00:45:54,852
Yes.
697
00:45:55,019 --> 00:45:56,438
How would you describe
698
00:45:56,605 --> 00:45:58,774
Miss Carter's demeanorthroughout Homers for Conrad?
699
00:45:58,941 --> 00:46:01,444
She seemed very happy.
700
00:46:01,611 --> 00:46:03,780
Did you see other young ladies
701
00:46:03,947 --> 00:46:06,242
at Homers for Conrad,as well as yourself?
702
00:46:06,409 --> 00:46:08,912
-Yes.
-Young ladies from your school,
703
00:46:09,079 --> 00:46:11,415
and yourself, and Miss Carter.
Is that correct?
704
00:46:11,582 --> 00:46:13,251
- Yes.
- Thank you.
705
00:46:13,417 --> 00:46:16,838
And were some of them,uh, her friends?
706
00:46:17,005 --> 00:46:20,134
They were mostly all
her friends and family.
707
00:46:21,845 --> 00:46:26,017
She begins to get the attentionthat she's been craving for.
708
00:46:26,184 --> 00:46:28,729
The grieving girlfriend.
709
00:46:37,740 --> 00:46:40,660
Three years afterConrad Roy committed suicide,
710
00:46:40,827 --> 00:46:43,497
prosecutors took us to the sitewhere it happened.
711
00:46:45,917 --> 00:46:49,213
From what I understand,
this is where the boy took his life.
712
00:46:49,380 --> 00:46:50,756
Sitting right here.
713
00:46:51,883 --> 00:46:53,385
It's so sad.
714
00:46:55,804 --> 00:46:59,100
I've never met the girl,but I've seen pictures of her.
715
00:46:59,267 --> 00:47:01,645
She just has that look
that I remember,
716
00:47:02,855 --> 00:47:06,026
that I see that look,and it's like, "You little snot.
717
00:47:06,193 --> 00:47:08,946
How could you do thatto a human being,
718
00:47:09,113 --> 00:47:13,327
you 90210 piece of crap?"
Uh, you know?
719
00:47:14,912 --> 00:47:18,625
I'm telling you, if I was on the jury,
I'd say, "Yeah. Go ahead.
720
00:47:18,792 --> 00:47:20,210
Your parents aren't gonna miss you
721
00:47:20,377 --> 00:47:22,797
if you're in Framingham
for the next 30 years.
722
00:47:22,964 --> 00:47:24,340
See ya later, bye."
723
00:47:24,507 --> 00:47:26,635
I-- I swear to God, you know.
724
00:47:26,802 --> 00:47:29,806
To me, this is evil.
This is evil.
725
00:47:29,973 --> 00:47:32,726
And, um, where does evil come from?
726
00:47:32,893 --> 00:47:34,270
I don't know.
727
00:47:36,189 --> 00:47:38,483
Almost immediatelyafter the indictment, there was...
728
00:47:38,650 --> 00:47:40,611
a narrative that got set,
that didn't change.
729
00:47:40,778 --> 00:47:43,823
And it was set in the community,
it was set in town, in the press.
730
00:47:43,990 --> 00:47:46,535
And that is of this heartless bitch
731
00:47:46,702 --> 00:47:49,748
who killed a guy to get popular.
732
00:47:49,914 --> 00:47:51,542
And the reason
that's such a compelling story
733
00:47:51,708 --> 00:47:54,796
is it combines two things that
people feel about teenage girls.
734
00:47:54,963 --> 00:47:58,175
One of them is that they are--
Uh, they're coercive,
735
00:47:58,342 --> 00:48:00,261
that they have a kind of secret power
736
00:48:00,428 --> 00:48:03,056
that men don't have,
that boys don't have,
737
00:48:03,223 --> 00:48:04,850
and that they can use it.
738
00:48:05,017 --> 00:48:07,729
The other thing is thatthey're crazy
739
00:48:07,896 --> 00:48:09,314
and they only live for attention
740
00:48:09,481 --> 00:48:11,901
and they just want to bepopular and they're vapid.
741
00:48:12,067 --> 00:48:15,280
And so, in saying that Michelle
was this, like, coercive ice queen
742
00:48:15,447 --> 00:48:17,783
who killed a guy
in order to become popular,
743
00:48:17,950 --> 00:48:19,827
it was like the perfect combination
744
00:48:19,994 --> 00:48:22,956
of everything that people hate
about teenage girls.
745
00:48:30,215 --> 00:48:34,054
It was near-universal revulsionat Michelle Carter.
746
00:48:35,263 --> 00:48:39,310
She was portrayed
as this black widow,
747
00:48:39,477 --> 00:48:41,146
this teenage black widow,
748
00:48:41,313 --> 00:48:44,150
a sociopath, a monster.
749
00:48:44,317 --> 00:48:47,696
She was calledthe worst person in the world.
750
00:48:47,863 --> 00:48:52,410
Just universal shock and angerthat someone could do this
751
00:48:52,577 --> 00:48:55,539
to this sweet young man, Conrad Roy.
752
00:48:57,458 --> 00:49:00,754
None of this is to saythat what Michelle did wasn't scary.
753
00:49:02,506 --> 00:49:04,467
But the narrative that she did it
754
00:49:04,634 --> 00:49:08,138
in this kind of witchy,satanic, coercive way,
755
00:49:08,305 --> 00:49:12,018
I think, came more from us
than from her.
756
00:49:13,562 --> 00:49:15,439
It's an American fable.
757
00:49:17,776 --> 00:49:20,988
Men are terrified of women.
758
00:49:22,865 --> 00:49:25,702
We all struggle with that.
759
00:49:25,869 --> 00:49:30,750
There's a long history of witches
in our culture.
760
00:49:30,917 --> 00:49:33,003
And who are witches?
761
00:49:33,170 --> 00:49:35,339
Witches were often
762
00:49:35,506 --> 00:49:39,261
strong, loving womenwho treated people,
763
00:49:39,428 --> 00:49:42,265
deranged people, sick people.
764
00:49:42,432 --> 00:49:47,104
And we have vilified women
in many roles throughout history.
765
00:49:48,690 --> 00:49:52,444
There's, in many men, a fear
766
00:49:53,696 --> 00:49:55,782
that women can control them.
767
00:50:04,334 --> 00:50:05,753
There are certain stories
768
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:09,508
that may sell newspapers
and television shows
769
00:50:09,674 --> 00:50:14,723
that the media will latch onto
and try to turn into something.
770
00:50:16,725 --> 00:50:19,520
You know, you havea, uh, young girl,
771
00:50:19,687 --> 00:50:22,983
a girl who's attractive,and it was...
772
00:50:23,150 --> 00:50:27,113
portrayed as something, uh,
that it really wasn't.
773
00:50:28,323 --> 00:50:31,786
They were just trying topaint Michelle in a bad light,
774
00:50:31,953 --> 00:50:33,913
to try and say she had a motive
775
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:36,876
because, again,
this case is so unique.
776
00:50:37,042 --> 00:50:39,087
You need to twist the facts.
777
00:50:39,254 --> 00:50:41,047
You need to twist the law
778
00:50:41,214 --> 00:50:45,094
and try to line it all up
to meet your story.
779
00:50:45,261 --> 00:50:48,098
He had had depression.
She knew that.
780
00:50:48,265 --> 00:50:50,101
He was an easy target.
781
00:50:50,267 --> 00:50:53,438
It was all about hergetting the attention
782
00:50:53,605 --> 00:50:55,482
from a dead boyfriend.
783
00:50:55,649 --> 00:50:59,362
How do you even process that?
That someone could be that inhuman?
784
00:50:59,529 --> 00:51:04,285
I believe some people have no soul,
no conscience.
785
00:51:04,452 --> 00:51:06,955
Oh, my goodness.
That's horrible.
786
00:51:35,950 --> 00:51:39,204
Michelle had serious, seriousmental health issues
787
00:51:39,371 --> 00:51:41,707
for most of her adolescent life.
788
00:51:41,874 --> 00:51:45,629
She had a severe eating disorder.
She was incredibly lonely.
789
00:51:47,799 --> 00:51:52,179
I think the eating disorder did to herwhat it does to all young girls
790
00:51:52,346 --> 00:51:54,557
who are sufferingfrom that kind of problem.
791
00:51:54,724 --> 00:51:58,938
It tends to make you feel
odd and strange,
792
00:51:59,104 --> 00:52:01,107
and it tends to make you
want to isolate.
793
00:52:04,236 --> 00:52:06,322
You tend to isolatefrom your parents.
794
00:52:06,489 --> 00:52:08,533
You tend to hideyour eating problem.
795
00:52:10,369 --> 00:52:13,915
And then, later on,
she starts to cut herself.
796
00:52:14,082 --> 00:52:18,379
And cutting further
isolates children from adults.
797
00:52:18,546 --> 00:52:20,006
They have to hide it
from the doctors,
798
00:52:20,173 --> 00:52:21,842
hide it from their parents.
799
00:52:22,008 --> 00:52:25,972
And she spends hours
texting back and forth with kids
800
00:52:26,139 --> 00:52:28,225
who also
aren't talking to their parents
801
00:52:28,392 --> 00:52:30,519
about cutting,
about eating disorders,
802
00:52:30,686 --> 00:52:32,230
about suicide.
803
00:53:09,902 --> 00:53:12,155
Are there times when
the defendant would text you
804
00:53:12,322 --> 00:53:13,991
and you would take a while
to text back?
805
00:53:14,158 --> 00:53:15,701
- Yes.
- And would she sometimes,
806
00:53:15,868 --> 00:53:18,204
-the defendant, react to that?
-Yes.
807
00:53:18,371 --> 00:53:19,790
And what-- How would her reaction be
808
00:53:19,957 --> 00:53:22,794
if you took a long time
to respond to her?
809
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,505
She would often repetitively--
810
00:53:25,672 --> 00:53:29,552
repeatedly texted me
until I responded.
811
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:33,474
And what would you generally describe,
sometimes, to be the length
812
00:53:33,641 --> 00:53:35,059
of the defendant's
text messages to you?
813
00:53:35,226 --> 00:53:37,604
Very lengthy.
814
00:54:48,068 --> 00:54:53,241
There's no question that Michelle
is always asking people to love her.
815
00:54:53,408 --> 00:54:55,786
She's always asking to get together,
816
00:54:55,953 --> 00:54:58,957
and seemingly is not often
getting together.
817
00:55:06,508 --> 00:55:08,719
And a lot of her friendscouldn't reciprocate
818
00:55:08,886 --> 00:55:10,471
because she's too desperate.
819
00:55:12,432 --> 00:55:16,396
She's so needy.
It's a hole no one can fill.
820
00:55:21,026 --> 00:55:22,779
Keep in mind, this is not
821
00:55:22,945 --> 00:55:26,283
such a strange phenomena
among young girls.
822
00:55:30,330 --> 00:55:35,169
Girls in high schooldestroy each other.
823
00:55:45,349 --> 00:55:48,061
Michelle Diana Carter.
824
00:55:48,227 --> 00:55:50,480
Good job!
825
00:55:54,318 --> 00:55:56,655
It was all over national news.
826
00:55:56,822 --> 00:55:59,784
Michelle was made out to be the bad guy.
827
00:55:59,951 --> 00:56:02,537
Her friends at that point,
the ones that were called,
828
00:56:02,704 --> 00:56:04,498
did abandon her.
829
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:10,005
They were paintinga different reality than what existed.
830
00:56:11,549 --> 00:56:14,469
The focus became Michelle,and not Conrad.
831
00:56:14,636 --> 00:56:17,056
Did he really want to die?
832
00:56:18,474 --> 00:56:20,852
And so, they shied away from
833
00:56:21,019 --> 00:56:24,106
the root causes of
why Conrad Roy killed himself.
834
00:56:35,078 --> 00:56:37,498
Your Honor,
this case is a suicide case.
835
00:56:37,665 --> 00:56:39,876
It is not a homicide.
836
00:56:40,043 --> 00:56:45,550
There just is insufficient evidence
to a reasonable factfinder
837
00:56:45,717 --> 00:56:49,388
to say that Conrad Roy
would not have taken his own life
838
00:56:49,555 --> 00:56:52,934
on July 12th or July 13th of 2014
839
00:56:53,101 --> 00:56:55,187
but for Michelle Carter.
840
00:56:56,272 --> 00:56:58,817
The Commonwealth
is trying to have it
841
00:56:58,984 --> 00:57:02,989
so that the evidence
is all about Michelle Carter.
842
00:57:03,156 --> 00:57:06,827
There is so much evidenceabout Conrad Roy
843
00:57:06,994 --> 00:57:10,164
and his decisions and his choices.
844
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,169
I can't fathom the fact that
845
00:57:14,336 --> 00:57:18,300
I was such a happy kid
846
00:57:18,467 --> 00:57:21,220
when I was younger.
847
00:57:21,387 --> 00:57:26,226
And I've created
a monster out of myself
848
00:57:26,393 --> 00:57:28,104
the past few years
849
00:57:28,271 --> 00:57:30,106
because of my depression.
850
00:57:31,233 --> 00:57:32,735
Racing thoughts...
851
00:57:34,528 --> 00:57:36,281
suicidal thoughts.
852
00:57:38,534 --> 00:57:40,995
Go through his Google searches.
853
00:57:42,789 --> 00:57:45,459
"Committing suicidemakes you happy."
854
00:57:49,130 --> 00:57:52,551
There are hundredsof these searches.
855
00:57:54,637 --> 00:57:59,185
It was Mr. Roy who had a planto take his own life.
856
00:57:59,352 --> 00:58:01,980
A long-held belief.
857
00:58:02,147 --> 00:58:04,400
It goes back to the causation issue.
858
00:58:04,566 --> 00:58:07,153
Did she actually cause his death?
859
00:58:08,321 --> 00:58:10,532
The questionat the heart of this case is
860
00:58:10,699 --> 00:58:13,870
can you cause someone elseto commit suicide?
861
00:58:14,037 --> 00:58:16,373
The prosecution has to provethat Michelle Carter
862
00:58:16,540 --> 00:58:18,459
caused Conrad Roy's death.
863
00:58:27,596 --> 00:58:30,224
To suggestthat he had his own free will,
864
00:58:30,391 --> 00:58:33,895
and we all do, to an extent,
and he could've just ignored her,
865
00:58:34,062 --> 00:58:36,941
is an oversimplification
of what was going on here.
866
00:58:37,108 --> 00:58:40,737
Between the statements of
"Why haven't you done it yet?"
867
00:58:40,904 --> 00:58:42,865
and things of that nature,
were other words,
868
00:58:43,032 --> 00:58:44,867
and they were words of love.
869
00:58:51,751 --> 00:58:53,253
Although it may seem
odd that I'm suggesting
870
00:58:53,420 --> 00:58:55,673
that words of love
could be considered reckless,
871
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:58,927
I think they are here when you
look at the circumstances.
872
00:58:59,094 --> 00:59:03,474
She knew that he had social anxiety.
She knew that he was depressed.
873
00:59:03,641 --> 00:59:06,562
She knew his frailties
because he confided in her.
874
00:59:13,195 --> 00:59:17,617
But not only that, Your Honor,
she knew herself.
875
00:59:17,784 --> 00:59:20,496
She knew what it was like
to be lonely.
876
00:59:20,663 --> 00:59:23,124
And as June turned into July,
877
00:59:23,291 --> 00:59:27,338
she turned that into
"I love you, kill yourself."
878
00:59:29,966 --> 00:59:32,720
I don't know howsomeone could tell someone else
879
00:59:32,886 --> 00:59:35,473
to kill themselvesthat supposedly loved them.
880
00:59:38,018 --> 00:59:41,940
You want to help them,
not help them to kill themselves.
881
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:53,329
It's a perfect storm of a tragedy.
882
00:59:53,496 --> 00:59:55,624
It's a complete tragedy.
883
01:00:03,675 --> 01:00:05,845
Many things played a role in here.
884
01:00:09,224 --> 01:00:12,061
And some thingsthat seem very important
885
01:00:12,228 --> 01:00:14,981
seem to me to have been withheld
by the prosecution.
73414
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